Detoxing from Church

This is an old article, written by Rob McAlpine in 2003, which describes the process of detoxing from church. He looks at the outcomes of what can sometimes be a lengthy healing process, and demonstrates how for some Christians it can be an essential part of their journey to maturity in Christ.

For brevity’s sake, I’ve only quoted some worthwhile extracts, but the entire article is worth a look.

Brian McLaren, in his widely-read book “A New Kind of Christian”, has a small section in the prologue which details the progression from recognizing there is something not quite right with church as we’ve known it, going through a tunnel of disillusionment and disconnection, and finally emerging into a period of renewed vision for re-constructing.

In describing what I just referred to as a “tunnel of disillusionment and disconnection”, McLaren observes:

“An individual or group in this phase turns against the old paradigm and can’t stop talking about how wrong, inhumane, or insupportable it is.” (A New Kind of Christian, page xi)

It is this part of the process that I’ve labeled “detox” – the period of time where individuals and groups go through an intense season of feeling betrayed, confined, and to a degree, deceived by their previous participation in a church system that they no longer find attractive, healthy, spiritually invigorating, or even biblical. They can’t help but vocalize their disillusionment, and finding many people with the same feelings, they begin to realize that the problem isn’t just them and their opinion. And with the popularity and easy access of the Internet, they find many others on the journey, with the same pain, and with the same dreams.

It is during this part of the process – an extremely necessary part, in my view – that much of the current animosity between disillusioned postmoderns and the churches (and leaders of the churches) that they’ve left can trace its roots. And it can get, quite frankly, ugly. Big time ugly.

But what if we can view this as a necessary process (call it a tunnel or whatever) which, once it runs its course, can actually produce maturity and life in people and groups? How can we work with the process and not against it?

[...]

Sometimes, the only way people can adequately detox themselves is to completely step outside the system- usually ending up in a home group or house church that is wrestling through similar questions of what church is supposed to look like, and feeling the same sense of disillusionment, and even animosity towards, what some derisively call “institutional” churches.

It is important to remind everyone that at the bottom of this whole sense of detox are people who are in love with Jesus, and who want to be a part in the healthy functioning of the Body of Christ. If they didn’t care, there would be no issues. They wouldn’t be upset. They would either leave altogether, and never again seek out fellowship with other believers, or they would passively go through the motions week after week and never give their spiritual state a second thought.

[...]

During my phone conversation with Bob Girard, one of the questions I had to ask was “after your church left its building behind, met only as house churches, and then completely ceased to exist four years later, what happened to the people?”

Bob related that, as far as he knew, all of the people ended up serving in a church, a para-church ministry, or in missions after they pulled the plug on the house churches. When I asked him if those same people viewed the 14 year history of their journey as a waste of time, or possibly even a mistake, he emphatically said that they felt that their journey together was absolutely crucial to their maturing as Christians.

Bob says that those he’s talked to have all mentioned that they now lead quite differently – with a much stronger expectation and practice of community and being Spirit-led – than they would have had they not gone through their journey with Bob and the church.

[...]

Perhaps the biggest task for established churches and newer, de-structured communities (house or coffeehouse), and individuals (like me) will be to remember that this is ultimately God’s thing. It’s His Bride we’re talking about here. God is fully aware of the state the Bride is in. He’s more proactive, loving, and desirous of Her being healthy and attractive than any of us are capable of being. The trap we need to avoid is to let this whole (very necessary) process of detoxing from inadequate models of church leadership and church structure to polarize and further divide the very Bride that we’re so longing to see come to maturity and health.

Read entire article here

I think this is an interesting description of what many people go through. I like that Rob MacAlpine can see a good end to it, and recognises the time needed by many for healing, as well as the potential trap of longer term bitterness.

I suspect that forgiveness towards those we feel have offended us is one of the keys to detox, with God’s help where we feel it is too hard.

Before the Throne

Is anyone gonna set the duke box up here on Signposts02?

I just had to revive this oldy. I’m going to try learn it so we can sing it at our church.

Enjoy the sweetness of this wonderful song ‘Before the Throne’.

Where Does the Church Go From Here?

On Teddy’s behalf, here is the following:

It looks like a bunch of separate examples have been edited into the one video. Todd Bentley, kicking people for God – or claiming to.

Thanks, Teddy.

Take the Pharisee Test

This article is from Don Francisco’s website…

Pharisee Test

The National Heart Health Association has issued an alert.
“An ancient disease is on the rise, “Pharisaitis”.

Symptoms: Cranial swelling, atrophied heart, upturning of the nose, and blind spots.

Populations at Risk:
Those active in religious circles and particularly in leadership should take precautionary measures to avoid this disease, and be educated about early symptoms.

Prognosis: Contagious– those with extreme Pharisaitis should be quarantined. Diagnosis is the most difficult part of the cure. Once the patient realizes he/she has contracted the disease, Pharisaitis often goes into remission. Left untreated, however, Pharisaitis will progress until blindness is complete, swollen head becomes difficult for the neck to support, heart shrinks

Go on… Do the test here…

Sadly, the test revealed that RavingPente has been infected. RavingPente finds it sadly too easy to see how other people could improve. (She is now praying for healing.) Anyone else willing to say how they came out?

Does God Use Sickness for Good?

Here is part of an article from a Catholic Library putting the case for God using sickness to achieve good. They neither deny the power of God to heal miraculously nor the possibility of God achieving good through the illness.

Does God Always Heal?

Today some Christians go to extremes in their expectation of divine healing. On one hand, some say that if a Christian is not healed of all his diseases, this reflects his lack of faith. Others claim that divine healings were only for the apostolic age, when all diseases were healed instantly and automatically. Both extremes are wrong.

God does not always heal the physical infirmities that afflict us. Paul preached to the Galatians while he was afflicted by a “bodily ailment” (Gal. 4:13– 14). He also mentions that he had to leave his companion Trophimus in the town of Miletus because he was too sick to travel (2 Tim. 4:20). In his first letter to Timothy, Paul urges his young protégé to “no longer drink only water, but to use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments” (1 Tim. 5:23).

The last passage is especially informative. Not only does it reveal that illnesses were not always healed in the apostolic age, but it also shows an apostle’s practical advice to a fellow Christian on how to deal with an illness. Notice that Paul does not tell Timothy to pray harder and have more faith that God will heal him from his stomach ailment. Rather, he tells him how to manage the illness through medicinal means.

Some argue that healings were always instantaneous and were only for those living during the apostolic age, but that afterward the gift of healing disappeared. The problem with that theory is that the Bible tells us otherwise. For example, when Jesus healed the blind man at Bethsaida, he laid his hands upon him twice before the man was fully healed (Mark 8:22–26).

Finally, we have a standing command of the New Testament in James 5:14–15, cited earlier. This command is never revoked anywhere in the Bible, and there are no statements anywhere that God will cease to heal. Thus the command is in effect to this very day.

Of course, our healing, like all things, is subject to God’s will. As James pointed out just a chapter earlier, “You do not know about tomorrow. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, ‘If the Lord wills, we shall live and we shall do this or that’” (Jas. 4:14–15, emphasis added). We have a promise of healing, but not an unqualified one. It is conditional on the will of God. [Emphasis by RP]

Why Doesn’t God Always Heal?

If God can heal us, why doesn’t he? Why isn’t it always his will to do so? One answer to this question is found in the spiritual discipline and training that can result from facing illness and adversity. Scripture asks, “Have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons?—‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives’ [Prov. 3:11–12]. It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

“If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it” (Heb. 12:5–11).

The Value of Suffering

Sometimes God allows us to undergo sickness as a form of discipline and training in righteousness. God often permits these trials for our sanctification, as Paul himself learned when he prayed that God would remove from him an angel of Satan who was afflicting him: “And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger [Greek: angelos] of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’ I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me” (2 Cor. 12:7–9).

Even though we must face a certain amount of suffering and affliction in this life, we know God’s grace is sufficient to sustain us. All of God’s graces, including physical health, are bestowed to lead to the salvation of our souls. The Catholic Church teaches that the sacrament brings “the restoration of health, if it is conducive to the salvation of his soul” (CCC 1532).

God also uses our suffering to help others. If Paul had not become ill while on his first missionary journey and been forced to stop traveling, he would not have preached to the Galatians, for he tells them, “You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first” (Gal. 4:13). If he had not preached to the Galatians, he would not have later written them the epistle that appears in our New Testament. God used Paul’s illness to bring salvation to the Galatians and to bring us a work of Scripture, through which we are still receiving benefits from God.

Read entire article here

Does Satan Know Our Thoughts?

Teddy has provided the following message from John Macarthur:

May 23rd, 2008

Can we pray out loud?(By John MacArthur)

The following is adapted from a Grace Church Q&A session.

Can Satan hear what we say and know our thoughts? Should we avoid praying out loud because Satan might hear us?

There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that Satan is omniscient. There are no verses that say he knows everything or that he can read our thoughts. But he is very adept at predicting human behavior because he’s seen it operate for so long. He can anticipate what you might do in a given situation without knowing your thoughts because of his knowledge of humankind and because he has a supernatural mind.

But in terms of being omniscient and being able to read your thoughts (as God can), the Bible does not support that idea at all. It never tells us that angels are omniscient. And if a holy angel isn’t omniscient, neither is a fallen one. So, Satan can’t read our thoughts, even if he’s great at predicting human behavior because he’s seen so much of it.

I was speaking at a conference in Iowa about this problem. People were asking questions like “How do you deal with demons?” and “Do we need exorcism to get rid of demons?” Well, there are a lot of people today who say you do. I once read a book about deliverance in which the author described a doctor who was supposedly delivered from the demon of post-nasal drip. And in this approach, whenever you think you have a demon, there’s a certain magical formula you say or you run around or “plead the blood”—whatever that phrase means, since it’s not from the Scripture. The blood has already been pled in your behalf at the time of your salvation and that takes care of it.

There are people who advocate little formulas and séance-type practices with a Christian connotation, claiming that they can cast out demons and so forth. But when you get into the Bible, you find that dealing with the devil is really as simple as going to Ephesians 6 and putting on the armor of God. You see, in Ephesians 6, it says, “We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers,” right? We’re wrestling against demons and against Satan.

But what do we do about it? The best place to find out is to read right in that same chapter, isn’t it? Notice that it does not say, “Go get your demons exorcised with a Christian exorcism.” Nor does it say, “Go get somebody to cast your demon out.” It says, “Put on the whole armor of God,” and what that whole armor really consists of is righteousness. The heart of it is “the breastplate of righteousness.” The key then is to live a righteous, Spirit-filled life and to trust in the sovereign power of God.

So, there is nothing in the Bible that says Satan can read our thoughts. Certainly demons can hear what we say. They can understand what we say. And as I said before, they are very good at predicting the common responses of man because they’ve been at it for such a long time.

But don’t worry about that! A lady once said to me, “We whisper,” because she was afraid of demons hearing her prayers. My response was, “Well, that’s foolish!” You can go boldly before the throne of grace. In the Old Testament, it doesn’t say, “And David whispered to the Lord;” it says, “And David said unto the Lord”—and out it came. You never hear any time in the apostle Paul’s instruction to us about prayer when he says, “Don’t talk out loud.” When he wanted to pray, he just flat out prayed and it didn’t bother him whether Satan heard it because he was living in such a way that Satan couldn’t do …[last word missing, sorry, but I think the gist is Satan couldn't do harm - RP]

Well, there are lots of points in there to agree with and to debate. Including those regarding exorcism, which particularly in the light of the recent Mercy Ministries publicity, is a controversial subject.

Many thanks to Teddy for providing the article.

What Copeland actually says about doctors

Clearly not having a problem with his own doctor, a back specialist, and someone he’s known and trusted since he was 5 years old. Obviously not calling him evil or of the devil. In fact, he says of him, “He’s turned out good!”

Someone’s got it wrong!

The whole idea of Word of Faith teachers calling doctors evil or of the devil is preposterous.

UPDATE: Most Word of Faith teachers are careful to say that there is nothing wrong with using the medical profession for health. I wrote on the other thread about this and included a link to Troy Edwards, which I’ll add here, since those comments have been in moderation:

Troy J. Edwards, in a defence of E W Kenyon, says the following about WoF teachers and their advice on the use of doctors and medicines, whilst attacking the extremes of Christian Science practices:

‘In contrast, Word Faith teachers are far from embracing such extremes. One of the major Faith teachers, Charles Capps, makes this statement in his book, Dynamics of Faith And Confession:

‘Here’s how I feel about doctors and medicine. If I need a doctor, I’ll go to a doctor. If I need medicine, I’ll take it. I don’t sit around saying, “I don’t want to miss God’s best.” If I am sick I’ve already missed God’s best. We should confess the Word daily. We Build our faith and develop ourselves in God’s Word. But if you get sick, don’t feel condemned.’

Charles Capps endeavors to help people not to feel condemned as a result of seeking medical attention. He does not compromise his message but teaches the balance in trusting God without endangering one’s health. Dr. Frederick K.C. Price in his book, Faith, Foolishness, or Presumption also cautions parents against going to extremes in the faith and healing message:

“I am trying to help some of you husband’s who put your wives and children into bondage, and make them suffer, just because you want to stand in faith. That is great for you to stand in faith, and I believe that you should do so, but I don’t think that you should impose that on your wife and children.”

Further in his book, Dr. Price says:

“Thank God that medicine is available if you need it. There is no point in you tossing to and fro all night long, in pain, and not sleeping, when you have a pain pill sitting right by your bed.”

I have listened to tapes by Kenneth Hagin where he endorses a similar position as that of Rev. Capps and Dr. Price. In one tape, Rev. Hagin talks about a couple that were a part of his praise and worship team. I believe it was the wife that had diabetes and were trusting God for healing. She took the insulin until their doctor told them to stop.

To my knowledge, no major faith teacher has ever taught against doctors or medicine. Kenneth Hagin has always said that he believes in doctors and has many good friends that are doctors. Therefore, the teachings of the Faith movement cannot be compared to those of Christian Science or any of the metaphysical cults. For men to make these false comparisons are being dishonest and they should not be trusted to speak on these issues.’

http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/kenyondefense3.html

Everyone Else is Wrong!

Thanks to Teddy for supplying this question from “Ship of Fools” Forum:

The History of the church is littered with schism from the filioque clause in the Nicene creed to the ordination of women bishops in the Anglican Church today. Does God support or reject both sides of our human arguments? Why is it that certain groups of Christians believe that because Holy Spirit has convicted them of their position, and that therefore everyone else is wrong. How then can the Holy Spirit lead intelligent people in two different directions?

How indeed?…

Judging Others by Their View of Church

Being disillusioned with traditional church forms, it would be easy to fall into the trap of dismissing all that is in them – including many people – as missing God’s intent, or of little value. In more extreme cases, one could argue that one should not associate with them at all – if we think a false gospel is preached or other sinful excesses are endorsed. For example, from my perspective, any church (fellowship of God’s people) that constantly teaches we _must_ tithe to be good Christians is constantly preaching falsehood – and preaching falsehood is a pretty serious thing. I also have numerous concerns about worldly hierarchical approaches.

But if we dismiss people in churches due to these things, are we being too judgemental or divisive ourselves? Are we just contributing to conflict that will never result in reconciliation between various groups of God’s people?

On the other hand, by accepting them all, are we then too tolerant and not judging enough? Surely it is also important to state truth, though not necessarily in an attacking fashion. Some people will not hear it otherwise. (Each side promoting a different ‘truth’ would agree with that, but prefer the other side to stop.)

Here are some quotes from Wayne Jacobsen at www.Lifestream.org where he touches on the tension between disillusionment with traditional systems and rejecting anything and everyone to do with them outright:

I know how passionate people can be when they leave an abusive congregation, or even one that sucked out their spiritual passion with religious activities that did little to help them live the life Father wanted for them. And I know how threatening it can be for those who still embrace the congregational form as the only God-given expression of the body of Christ, to see people walk away and talk as if it is unnecessary at best and harmful at worst.

But let’s be real about it. Spontaneously and simultaneously believers all over the world are rethinking what it means to live in the life of Jesus and how the body of Christ takes expression in our world. They have wearied of religious systems that permeates much of our congregational life and are looking for more effective alternatives. It’s not enough to simply say that Hebrews 10:25 requires all committed Christians to be in attendance on Sunday morning in one of the institutions called ‘church’. They know better. ‘Assembling together’ is not a matter of attendance at a meeting, but the joining of lives in a common journey.

Many of those are still in systems their heart no longer supports, and they too yearn for a deeper reality to their spiritual life and a revival in church life. In these days we have far more to gain by keeping the lines of communication open between us all rather than by dividing up sides and rejecting those who disagree with us.

Jacobsen then illustrates why some people have left traditional churches, and why other are still there. He then concludes:

It’s Not About Church

My point is this: there are many wonderful God-loving believers inside traditional congregations and there are many who have spilled out of them. Those looking for a more authentic life in him and with his church have more to gain by staying in fellowship with each other rather than cutting each other off if we’re being led in different directions.

While I love alternative forms of relational life that are often expressed in homes and in more informal groupings, if we only change the locale without shifting our focus we will end up with the same result. If we’re focused on how we do church, even if we find more Scriptural ways to do it, instead of on Jesus himself as the Cornerstone and Head of that church, we will still miss his life. In short, finding our place in the body of Christ has far less to do with how we do church than it does with how we find our life on him.

It’s not about church; it’s about Jesus. Where he captures our hearts and draws us to himself, we will find ourselves growing in the dynamics that allow the life of his church to emerge around us. We will value people being real, rather than pretending. We’ll want to free people from guilt and condemnation rather than manipulate them to get them to do what we think is best for them. We’ll value relationships that illuminate Jesus in our lives more than meetings that often don’t. And those who bear his heart will help equip others to live the life not manage programs for others to be obligated to attend.

In this kingdom the critical question is not where you go to church or how you ‘do church’ it is whether or not you’re coming to know him and walking alongside those he is giving you at any moment to help them on their journey. And if you are, you’ll be far more concerned with recognizing Jesus’ work in others, rather than judging their place in him by their view of church.

Read complete article here – its worth it.

Pervers-atisements for CCC’s Awakening 2008

Yep. It’s been and gone. Unfortunately I stumbled across some of their advertisements.
Listened to them. I feel sorry for Josh Kelsey. A great man of God has sold his brains to Phil.

This is advertising in the Christian church that should be illegal. Noone should use guilt and makeup doctrine or twist doctrine to bring people to a ‘churchy’ event. I’m sorry, but that is not on.

Josh Kelsey’s Josh-wash:

I’ll allow someone else to rant on about the inaccuracies of what Josh has said. This young man, who has a heart for God want straight through SOM. Look at the results!

The Joel Houston Joust:

“Who wants to get stuck into the same old, same old box?” Heh-heh! I wonder if Joel ever asked that question, himself? “So often we are about our heart and our glory.” I’m glad he’s taken note of such a truth, but what is he going to do about it? Address it through action and lose lose his position? Now that’s stepping out of the box and out of the norm. God does indeed share his glory with mankind. Anyways. Pick at this too peoples. I want to finish writing this out.

And last but not least, the great Phil himself who his getting to old for his job.

He was part of the ‘Jesus Revolution’? Was it EVER called the Jesus Revolution. I’ve only ever heard it called the ‘Jesus Movement’. The reason why I’m capitalising on this is because, as far as I am concerned, he is twisting a well known, historically, named movement, to suit his agenda to manipulate people into coming to this (now passed) conference- the REVOLUTION. In spite of this- he said him and his wife were apart of it. Hmm… They were the outcome of it. From my understanding, in talking to many people, including my parents and elders that were apart of it- it was noted as an official movement and started in 1965, ending , many have said, between 1975-1980, with the movement in Australia, definitely before the year 1980.

edited: This has been discussed, explored and corrected. (July 22, 2008 at 3:36 pm)

However, the movement still left an impact on Christendom- some would say for the better, others would say for the worst. The Pringles were NEVER apart of it but were an outcome of it.

Not only that, does anyone find what Phil says completely contradictory? It starts with him saying when he was young what he and his wife did- looking after drug addicts and dealing with prison people. Now he wants the young generation to do what they did, being apart of their movement, being in their stadiums and figuring out where God wants them; being in love with God by going to their events?

Brooke Frasiers promo for Awakening… Not worth showing. She’s relatively harmless. She just wants to be wherever God moves. But that’s why she is choosing to come again to the Awakening conference. Not because she was asked? Or possibly, just possibly, wanting to promote her latest CD?

I’m posting this because I want to highlight the cost in which advertising now plays in church. Forget truth, throw in contradiction and perversion and you’ve got an advertisement for a ‘God-Driven’ Event by young 20 year olds who are in love with God.

Advertising can be pure as a form of communicating an event. But these are clearly not. To me this is an issue that needs to be addressed when promoting church ’stuff’. This, to me, is not a speck but a plank that need to addressed.

Remember the speck. Remember the plank.