Yep. It’s been and gone. Unfortunately I stumbled across some of their advertisements.
Listened to them. I feel sorry for Josh Kelsey. A great man of God has sold his brains to Phil.
This is advertising in the Christian church that should be illegal. Noone should use guilt and makeup doctrine or twist doctrine to bring people to a ‘churchy’ event. I’m sorry, but that is not on.
Josh Kelsey’s Josh-wash:
I’ll allow someone else to rant on about the inaccuracies of what Josh has said. This young man, who has a heart for God want straight through SOM. Look at the results!
The Joel Houston Joust:
“Who wants to get stuck into the same old, same old box?” Heh-heh! I wonder if Joel ever asked that question, himself? “So often we are about our heart and our glory.” I’m glad he’s taken note of such a truth, but what is he going to do about it? Address it through action and lose lose his position? Now that’s stepping out of the box and out of the norm. God does indeed share his glory with mankind. Anyways. Pick at this too peoples. I want to finish writing this out.
And last but not least, the great Phil himself who his getting to old for his job.
He was part of the ‘Jesus Revolution’? Was it EVER called the Jesus Revolution. I’ve only ever heard it called the ‘Jesus Movement’. The reason why I’m capitalising on this is because, as far as I am concerned, he is twisting a well known, historically, named movement, to suit his agenda to manipulate people into coming to this (now passed) conference- the REVOLUTION. In spite of this- he said him and his wife were apart of it. Hmm… They were the outcome of it. From my understanding, in talking to many people, including my parents and elders that were apart of it- it was noted as an official movement and started in 1965, ending , many have said, between 1975-1980, with the movement in Australia, definitely before the year 1980.
edited: This has been discussed, explored and corrected. (July 22, 2008 at 3:36 pm)
However, the movement still left an impact on Christendom- some would say for the better, others would say for the worst. The Pringles were NEVER apart of it but were an outcome of it.
Not only that, does anyone find what Phil says completely contradictory? It starts with him saying when he was young what he and his wife did- looking after drug addicts and dealing with prison people. Now he wants the young generation to do what they did, being apart of their movement, being in their stadiums and figuring out where God wants them; being in love with God by going to their events?
Brooke Frasiers promo for Awakening… Not worth showing. She’s relatively harmless. She just wants to be wherever God moves. But that’s why she is choosing to come again to the Awakening conference. Not because she was asked? Or possibly, just possibly, wanting to promote her latest CD?
I’m posting this because I want to highlight the cost in which advertising now plays in church. Forget truth, throw in contradiction and perversion and you’ve got an advertisement for a ‘God-Driven’ Event by young 20 year olds who are in love with God.
Advertising can be pure as a form of communicating an event. But these are clearly not. To me this is an issue that needs to be addressed when promoting church ’stuff’. This, to me, is not a speck but a plank that need to addressed.
Remember the speck. Remember the plank.
May 22, 2008 at 12:47 am
It’s all a bit fuzzy to me. Pretty much the same message as for most conferences, but aimed at youth.
The essential message seemed to be to come to Awakening and take part in the young generation that will usher revival into the church. I found the adverts boring, but hey, I’m not youth – they aren’t aimed at me.
I guess the thing that made me a bit sad was to see the young Houston and Kelsey following in their fathers’ corporate footsteps to that degree – but they are perfectly happy and enthusiastic doing that, so again, one shouldn’t feel sorry for them.
When I see pastors’ family members in high profile roles though, I do wonder if there may have been some other talented or gifted people who may have been better suited to those roles except that they were not as close to the inner circle.
May 22, 2008 at 4:38 am
‘Remember the speck. Remember the plank.’
True, but who’s got the plank, we wonder, in this piece?
Jesus movement, revolution, who really cares, or decides. what it is called? It influenced/s beyond itself. So thank God!
Picky picky, no love, no friendly.
Praise God these young people, and the older, but not that old (Wigglesworth started in serious ministry when he was 57) (Wesley was still riding around on horseback in his 80’s), PP are saved, and have dedicated their lives, young or old, to preaching for salvation, for souls, for a revolution and movement of soul winners for Jesus.
I smell the smell of sour grapes. Maybe, in future, you should let them mature turn into new wine!
May 22, 2008 at 5:51 am
I must admit, I really like Josh! He is very sincere, which means of course he can be sincerely wrong. Yes, there is an influence from his dad, who is also very sincere. This is one of the nicest families at CCCOF.
There have been times where Mark has shown his replacement theology bent. I think we just might see the Lord have His way with this young man, he’s not in ministry because of nepotism but a sincere desire to serve the Lord.
I was pleasantly surprised to see Francis Chan as a guest speaker. However he may not be invited back – his message was quite reformed and solid.
Enough of this support for CCCOF – I need to put my grumpy hat back on!!!
May 22, 2008 at 5:53 am
Especially since I just found out they have invited Steve Munsey to their Conference in Hawaii – hope he doesn’t wear a hula skirt!
May 22, 2008 at 6:24 am
Teddy, its good to hear that Josh is not there due to nepotism.
I remember Mark Kelsey from many years ago, and only remember good things about him and his families dedication. I really do hope that it all works out well at CCCOF now that the Kelsey’s are back. I understand Mark Kelsey is now in charge? Or is Phil Pringle still in that role after all?
It doesn’t surprise me in a way to see both Steve Munsey and a reformed speaker speaking at different times. Although I am particularly sorry to hear that Munsey is spaking at their Hawaii conference. I guess if they don’t use discernment then both good and bad can still get in.
May 22, 2008 at 6:30 am
FaceLift Says:
“True, but who’s got the plank, we wonder, in this piece?”
The thought crossed my mind FaceLift that I it may have been me.
I suppose I should try and expand on above a bit more. Advertising does have a place, I believe for church activities and to promote awareness of fun things coming up. But by no means are we to sink to the world’s level to lie, manipulate blatantly, change history or use non-scriptural basis to encourage people to come. Not only that, to use guilt and shame to drive people to come such events is wrong.
I’ve seen some of Phil’s messages online where he preaches on the church being the gate- or even a ’stargate’. He has talked about CCC churches (specifically in the rise wand build) being the only place where people can step into a heavenly experience here on earth. Stepping through the stargate and being taken to heaven to experience God and his presence.
Where is that in scripture? Next thing you know you have Josh Kelsey, who I actually really admire now starting to tread down the same road. I’m angry for his sake that he is not questioning the teaching’s he is taking on board, but is promoted to shut off his God-given brain. What he accepts as truth he’ll be teaching other’s what is truth.
Wordly advertising is all about being contemporary and convenient. Being in, not out. Join this or you’ll suck. Get this or you’ll never be satisfied. Unfortunately, all had this tone in them- to those who go to CCC or to those that go to a local church who feel they need to go (despite of finances or relationships/loyalties). It’s elitism. It’s pride. It’s subtle and subversive and unhealthy patriotism. They are asking people to pledge allegiance to a true church movement (themselves), the one on fire, the one that is moving. It’s actually divisive and causes local ministries to suffer as a result.
The reason why I am being so picky (specifically Phil), is that he knows what words to say and what sounds good to advertise to people. His theme word is ‘revolution’. He was never part of the ‘Jesus Revolution’ and in to imply that he was apart of it is wrong. However he was an outcome of it. It’s a fine line of deception.
He broadcast this online and to his fellow church members. At first I considered this to be a speck that maybe not worth reading into. But combined with false doctrines, confusing messages and a bad account of his past history, that should not be on.
Every word of theirs would have been considered before going to air. It’s not like ‘oops, how did that get up there? Why did I say that?’, after the thing is still being aired to this day. It’s wrong, deceitful and should not be allowed. It’s called lying.
True. I can be bitter and I can be cynical, yet passionate. I’m expressing that I can be those things openly. Call it a speck, call it a plank. I see it as a speck.
But to lie and openly distort the past and scripture for the sake of advertising and being ‘Christians to a world that needs to be saved’, but then to not pull inaccuracies of off is a sign that they endorse unblibical truths and practices.
I’ll just keep writing if I don’t stop.
See ya.
May 22, 2008 at 6:32 am
Who’s Josh’s dad? It’s not Mark is it?
May 22, 2008 at 6:50 am
I just listened to that second Josh Kelsey video.
I see what you mean about doctrine.
More of ‘the church is the gate of heaven’ theology, complete with prosperity thrown in. More of the same. This stuff is now sounding like pretty major CCC doctrine.
May 22, 2008 at 7:42 am
You can never pin CCC down on their theology – they never come outright and say it’s dominion/kingdom now/replacement stuff. There’s a tendency to run with the latest trend/gimmick. From personal experience if you question certain teachings they can be quite patronising.
They tend to scoff at seminary training and call it “cemetary” training. A good way to cover up their own lack of sound training. By their standard I’m qualified to run a church (because I graduted with high marks , 100% for leadership etc) and I know I’m not qualified. I’ve listened to too many good preachers elsewhere lately – a good dose of Spurgeon wouldn’t go astray.
Now I know that we are called to be Berean but don’t put that into practice or you will be shunned – seriously!!
Here’s a good quote from a repentant Jim Bakker – remember him? He calls sermons today “longhorn sermons” – a point here and a point there with a lot of bull in between.
May 22, 2008 at 9:21 am
Ha! That’s a good quote from Bakker. Sometimes a speaker actually has good content, but the amount of funny stories in between can be sheer frustration. I don’t mind the odd anecdote, when its relevant or as relief, but we had a speaker recently who said he was condensing 8 weeks of content into one message, and thought he’d have trouble fitting it all in. Well, we got about 5 minutes total of excellent content, and 30 minutes of stand up comedy. I think he could have fit the 8 weeks into half an hour if he’d cut the comedy. I’d rather get meat than lollies if I’m going to allocate precious time to listening to a preacher. (Gripe, gripe!)
‘Cemetery training’ – how dismissive! No wonder they can’t discern anything anymore. This is such a big weakness, combined with pride I’m afraid. Unless the ‘pride’ is just sheer defensive behaviour. Doesn’t bode well for their future direction.
I wonder what would happen if discernment was exercised? Maybe their numbers would actually increase – people would stop leaving when it became empty and repetitive?
May 22, 2008 at 9:23 am
S&P – are you joking? I can’t tell in print.
I believe Josh would be Mark Kelsey’s son – he even looks like him! Teddy, can you confirm it?
May 22, 2008 at 9:28 am
Yes, Josh is their eldest.
May 22, 2008 at 9:45 am
I knew a young man who joked a bit from the pulpit and he was seriously convicted by the Holy Spirit (almost immediately). His heart was broken before the Lord.
The problem is they are trying to be relevant and not trusting the sufficiency of scripture (my favourite saying) . We should be concerned for the next generation – there could be a distinct lack of reverance for the presence of God and who will be the blame for that?
We forget how holy He is , and just because we are His by adoption, does not mean we can constantly play the fool. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction”.
I love a good joke as much as anyone but when pastors think they have “warm up the audience” before preaching perhaps they’re in the wrong business. It’s also annoying when they think a movie theme/story will reach kids more than the supernatural transforming power of the spoken “Word”. Once in a while maybe if it’s truly relevent but give me a break!!!!!! Phil Baker over at Riverview used the movie “Chocolat”!!!
So those who still haven’t seen it can include some “magic” in their walk. OK so I saw the movie too, but I wouldn’t preach on it!
May 22, 2008 at 9:55 am
“The problem is they are trying to be relevant and not trusting the sufficiency of scripture (my favourite saying) .”
Yes, you are probably right.
“fools despise wisdom and instruction”.
Hmm – that brings to mind the ‘cemetary training’ comment.
Sheep will find another field if the one they are in has nothing to eat!
May 22, 2008 at 10:17 am
“What is preaching? Logic on fire! Eloquent reason! Are these contradictions? Of course they are not. Reason concerning this Truth ought to be mightily eloquent, as you see it in the case of the Apostle Paul and others. It is theology on fire. And a theology which does not take fire, I maintain, is a defective theology; or at least the man’s understanding of it is defective. Preaching is theology coming through a man who is on fire. A true understanding and experience of the Truth must lead to this. I say again that a man who can speak about these things dispassionately has no right whatsoever to be in a pulpit; and should never be allowed to enter one. What is the chief end of preaching? I like to think it is this. It is to give men and women a sense of God and His presence.
As I have said already, during this last year I have been ill, and so have had the opportunity, and the privilege, of listening to others, instead of preaching myself. As I have listened in physical weakness this is the thing I have looked for and longed for and desired. I can forgive a man for a bad sermon, I can forgive the preacher almost anything if he gives me a sense of God, if he gives me something for my soul, if he gives me the sense that, though he is inadequate himself, he is handling something which is very great and very glorious, if he gives me some dim glimpse of the majesty and the glory of God, the love of Christ my Saviour, and the magnificence of the Gospel.
If he does that I am his debtor, and I am profoundly grateful to him. Preaching is the most amazing, and the most thrilling activity that one can ever be engaged in, because of all that it holds out for all of us in the present, and because of the glorious endless possibilities ”
Martin Lloyd Jones
May 22, 2008 at 10:23 am
Some seem to want the ‘fire’ without Reason or truthful theology.
May 22, 2008 at 10:37 am
So they become Sheeple -
“Sheeple is a term of disparagement, a portmanteau created by combining the words “sheep” and “people.” It is often used to denote persons who acquiesce to authority, and thus undermine their own human individuality. The implication of sheeple is that as a collective, people believe whatever they are told, especially if told so by authority figures, without processing it to be sure that it is an accurate representation of the real world around them. ” – Wikipedia
May 22, 2008 at 10:43 am
And that could be added to some churches “about us” on their websites!
May 23, 2008 at 4:22 am
Oh how sad. To think there is even a word for it. Sheeple is a pretty good description though. You know I’ve never once heard any teaching on the Bereians at any church I’ve attended.
May 23, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Whoever wrote that post has shocking grammar. Please use spell check if you’re going to post something!!!
May 23, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Aw, come on Liz, Blogging isn’t supposed to be perfect, and language is constantly changing, but, since you mention it, some of the comments on this post are pretty rank, too. Rank to the plank, in fact. Please use smell check before commenting!
May 24, 2008 at 11:10 am
So for the sake of discussion Facelift, which particular comments are rank, that you had in mind?
May 24, 2008 at 1:21 pm
The general air is polluted by a sort of gossipy unpleasantness. The post begins it and the comments add to it. It’s not very nice.
For instance, who cares whether a person is the son or daughter of someone who runs the church? They should have at least equal consideration to every other member, not less.
In fact, PK’s tend to have a stronger handle on how the local church is run, of course, living he household of those who run it, and not only living, but being brought up in the ups and downs, and ins and outs, of it all. plus they generally have some of the traits of their parents, the people who got these movements going in the first place.
Of course they’ll be considered for leadership positions. Besides, we Christians are all kids of the same Father, are we not? There are sons and daughters of the ‘house’ and sons and daughters of the Pastor. Timothy was like a son to Paul. I think we have to get over that particular hurdle.
What is it that Josh is getting wrong? He is a little on the wordy side, but passionate about young people knowing God, and giving themselves over to serve. The ‘gate of heaven’ thing on the church isn’t really that bad of teaching. It builds something into the house.
Jacob’s encounter with God certainly had a prophetic edge to it, and he definitely called that place the House of God – Bethel – where angels ascended and descended, where God spoke to him, and transformed his life; a place so awful, holy and terrifying it had to be God’s Presence Jacob encountered; and so it should be when we gather, wherever that may be, to worship and praise and be in the Presence of God corporately, as if we were like the saints who stood before the scary Mount at the presentation of the tablets of stone, under the thick, dark clouds, the thunders and lightnings of God… yet even more so, since we are the general assembly of the first-born, standing before Him in Mount Zion. The local church being a microcosm of the Church.
There are so many allusions to this truth of his great Presence amongst us in general gatherings, when we truly worship and honour His name, that we should enjoy these various interpretations of encountering God’s Presence, rather than looking for some legalistic accuracy of pin-point regimentation. The Spirit, not the letter, for we want life not death.
Yes, we should all be continually in His Presence, and church is more than Sunday meetings, but there should be some kind of awe to corporate gathering which is appreciated by all present, and it does seem that special things can and do take place in this atmosphere.
Gate of Heaven seems to fit the bill appropriately in this context.
But all this blah-blah niggling back-biting is conducive to the opposite.
May 24, 2008 at 4:51 pm
FL says:
“What is it that Josh is getting wrong? He is a little on the wordy side, but passionate about young people knowing God, and giving themselves over to serve. The ‘gate of heaven’ thing on the church isn’t really that bad of teaching. It builds something into the house…
Gate of Heaven seems to fit the bill appropriately in this context.”
No FaceLift. This ‘gate of heaven’ doctrine is full of crock, mate.
Christ is the gate, we are not. The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven was indeed among the Jewish people. If they knew the Law, knew the Prophets word and listened to Jesus, they would know that the gate of Heaven, Jesus Christ, was their only access to the Kingdom of Heaven/Kingdom of God.
They have to see that Jesus is the only access to see their God manifest himself to them as their King and Saviour.
Now back to the church, we’ve gone through the gate. We as members of the church who ‘house’ the Holy Spirit are the Household or ‘House of God’ universally. The church is not a Mecha unlike this BS teaching says it is. CCC use this made-up BS doctrine to get it’s members to give to their Rise&Build program and to fleece the flock to pledge loyalty to their movement. This teaching reinforces lies, manipulation and greed. It’s a another wannabe RCC heresy so it can further their ‘church planting’ or expanding their empire.
FL says:
“And it does seem that special things can and do take place in this atmosphere.”
True. Like everyone feeling good? It’s true it can be an amazing experience. But so can worship and the presence of God anywhere else around the world. To narrow down that one needs to give money to build a gateway to heaven sounds like something like an occult program. ‘Let’s build a tower to reach God’ syndrome. Can more money bring the presence of God. Can a bigger building bring the presence of God? Can sheer mass bring the presence of God? Or does God bring the presence of God?
FL says:
“The general air is polluted by a sort of gossipy unpleasantness. The post begins it and the comments add to it. It’s not very nice.”
In all honesty, I did not know that Josh Kelsey was the son of Mark Kelsey. I still don’t see a resemblance. I’ve known Josh Kelsey for eight years- vaguely. His credentials and the way he just fitted the mould made me think he was going to go well in a CCC environment. Too true. I thought maybe somehow he could have been related to Mark, but thought it was just a coincidental last name. Can you highlight the ‘gossipy’ side so I know what you mean by that?
Now I’ve got to clarify something. I rang up some people. They honestly assumed he was saved in the 1980’s. Many say around 1975. Another said 1978. A few say 1980. So Phil could have been apart of the movement. I take it back. However, I still don’t like the fact that he used the Jesus Movement to further his own kingdom by linking his movement to a movement that had many great mothers and fathers in the faith who would no way, support some of the churches that have capitilised on what they founded in the early 60’s and 70’s… Frank Houston is still more amazing then what his son will ever accomplish (apart from what He did later). I managed to get the book ‘Arise’, the book on how CCC was started. I’ll read that to find out.
“In fact, PK’s tend to have a stronger handle on how the local church is run, of course, living he household of those who run it, and not only living, but being brought up in the ups and downs, and ins and outs, of it all. plus they generally have some of the traits of their parents, the people who got these movements going in the first place.”
That is true in a sense, but rather a general statement. They can be much worse, or much smarter and better then their parents prior. They can be really insensitive or really understanding. It’s all about how their parents raised them, how they were involved in other people’s lives, decisions they made, friends they hang with, how they were involved with church, how they know God, etc.
From my experience, I’ve seen them to be quite rude and stuck up. Those mainly from pentecostal churches anyways. Baptists, Anglican and Lutheran PK’s seem to be fine. However, I think Josh Kelsey is an exception.
And forgive my bad english. (I saw the hint that I was the one with the shonky english). I always write really late at night. I suffer from lack of sleep and hope to get some earlier nights soon.
Good night.
May 25, 2008 at 3:35 am
The ‘gate of heaven’ doctrine is used to reinforce the message that we need to gather corporately in the Sunday meeting to access the fullness of God’s presence. I have personally heard it preached that meetings of just 2 or 3 don’t cut the mustard in this respect.
It is preached sincerely, but is a distortion of scripture and a doctrine of coercion, ultimately leading people to believe that the Sunday meeting is where it’s all at. You go there to get what you need to ‘get you through the week’. It is designed to encourage dependency upon that particular body expression. More people will attend meetings regularly when they believe that is their ultimate contact point with our Father.
It is a doctrine of denial, because it denies the fullness of the presence of God in other settings – and even the fullness of Christ through all things – all creation. When we are taught that we can only experience God’s full presence in one setting, we will not even really have our eyes open to see Him in his full works in creation, in our lives outside the ‘church’ setting, in business, in marriage and family, in our neighbourhood activities, in his natural wonders. We are actually cut off from a wider recognition and experience of God’s presence if we swallow this doctrine. It can stunt our growth if we believe the Sunday meeting is the only place to experience His fullness, and stop us from hearing God’s voice elsewhere.
May 25, 2008 at 3:43 am
Regarding pastors’ kids, I don’t think anyone here was having a go at Josh Kelsey. Raising the question of nepotism is worthwhile – it doesn’t mean it is what happens. In fact, Teddy assured us that Josh was a good person for his role, and specksandplanks has continually said that Josh is a great guy.
A PK may well be the best person for the job. When you see it happening a lot though, you’d have to say either others more well equipped are missed because they are not PK’s who automatically have the right connections to be recognised, or else, PK’s are the best for the job because of their cultural fit. The cultural fit is what I call what Facelift alluded to.
Josh of course reflects the doctrine he has absorbed through growing up in the CCC family. Those of us who fundamentally disagree with some of those doctrines find it hard to watch any young person with a genuine heart for Christ deceived by them. It’s harder for PK’s because they have grown up surrounded by it all. For the same reason, if you agree with those doctrines, you are going to think that PK’s frequently understand it best.
I’d love to see a ‘recovering PK’. They’d be fascinating to listen to.
May 25, 2008 at 3:50 am
s&p – I was used to seeing Mark Kelsey 20 years ago, when he looked younger, so maybe that’s why I can see the resemblance to Josh more. I love seeing those family resemblances!
May 25, 2008 at 8:28 am
S&P,
‘The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven was indeed among the Jewish people. If they knew the Law, knew the Prophets word and listened to Jesus, they would know that the gate of Heaven, Jesus Christ, was their only access to the Kingdom of Heaven/Kingdom of God.
They have to see that Jesus is the only access to see their God manifest himself to them as their King and Saviour.’
Are you saying that Jacob met with Jesus Christ at Bethel? How so? Jesus Christ appeared to the Jews several centuries later.
The Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of Heaven. It has always been. The Gate is where God chooses it to be. Jesus is the door, and the gate, but he did not appear to Jacob as the Jesus of the New Testament, since he was not named ‘Jesus’ yet, or born of the virgin, so could only have been the Gate Jacob named in a prophetic way, which would declare that there was an entrance point to the Church, which is the Body of Christ, Christ being the Head. We enter through the veil, that is Christ’s flesh, and through his blood.
Jacob, in fact, saw a ladder going up into heaven, and angels ascending and descending. God spoke with him there. He said, “Surely Jehovah is in this place, and I knew it not!” and was afraid, “How dreadful is this place! This is none other than the House of God, and this is the Gate of Heaven!”
Was it literally the House of God, or the Gate of Heaven? No, it was prophetically so. It was where God met with Jacob, and he signified this. Is the local church literally the Gate of Heaven? Not really, but is it where we meet with God? Is the local church a microcosm of the Church, the Body of Christ? Is it where the Presence can be expected? Is it a place where angels can ascend and descend? Can we expect Go to speak to us there? Is it reasonable to think this in the same way Jacob did?
The Gate of Heaven Jacob saw was an access point to the Presence of God. It was marked by a stone at Bethel.
However, it could be anywhere at anytime, as I said in my comment. So indeed it could be in a local church any given Sunday any where. It is indeed accessed through true worshippers, whom God is seeking, accessed through praise and worship. We will enter his gates through thanksgiving, and enter his courts through praise.
He is with us always, and will be until the end, but Jesus is also enthroned in our praises. He is seated at the right hand of he Father, and yet he joins in our praises of the Father.
You limit the Gates of Heaven to a certain place and time. I say it is here, and could be in any place where God is honoured, or where He deems to appear..
It is quite reasonable to use the Gates of Heaven as an analogy of the Church. It is a place of worship and adoration.
Personally I think it is more useful to be entering the Gates of Hades to rescue the lost.
May 25, 2008 at 11:06 am
Facelift, they taught us that the Sunday corporate gathering is the only gateway to heaven, and if you gather as 2 or 3, while you can still experience God’s presence, you are not at the gateway to heaven, so you cannot experience the fullness of his presence.
In other words, if 2 or 3 gather in Jesus name, he is there with them but they cannot access the gateway to heaven, but if 200 or 3000 gather in His Name, they can. Thus if you gather as 2 or 3, you have limited access to God.
May 25, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Do they issue the cut-off number for gatehood?
May 25, 2008 at 2:54 pm
FL says:
“Are you saying that Jacob met with Jesus Christ at Bethel? How so? Jesus Christ appeared to the Jews several centuries later.”
Gen 28:12-13
And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!
And behold, the Lord stood over and beside him and said, I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father [forefather] and the God of Isaac; I will give to you and to your descendants the land on which you are lying.
Umm… Yes he did. If Jacob SAW the Lord God standing before him where He said ‘I am the Lord’, Jacob indeed saw Jesus. This is the same Jesus he wrestled with who blessed Jacob, yet did not reveal His name. Christian’s forget that God is Spirit, but spirits can manifest themselves to portray what they are. God’s spirit was made manifest before Jacob that night. The Lord revealed himself to Jacob but hid his identity from him- but alluded to himself being Jesus Christ. We then see Jesus Christ use the ladder to represent himself.
John 1:51 Then He said to him, “I assure you, most solemnly I tell you all, you shall see heaven opened, and the ANGELS OF GOD ASCENDING AND DESCENDING UPON THE SON OF MAN”! (emph added)
So the spirit of God who manifest himself as a being, and a typified ladder spoke prophetically over Jacob’s life and descendants. It was this spirit that is commonly referred to as THE Angel Of The Lord. This is the spirit that spoke to Moses, saved Israel, made the pillars of fire, etc. It was this angel/spirit that bought the wrath of God and made Himself manifest to certain individuals in the Old Testament. This Spirit was Jesus who was waiting the apprpriate time to make himself in the flesh as Jesus the Anointed One- fully God and fully man. He was Israel’s guardian. Israel’s spiritual ruler, spiritual prince. Other nations had their own spiritual princes and guardians; there was the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece. Jesus Christ was the Prince of Israel who, at the appropriate time, took on flesh. Jesus Christ was before the foundations of the world. His name was revealed as Wisdom and was (the Architect) with God. Prov 8:12-30
Proverbs 30:4 Proves that Jesus Christ is indeed the God of Heaven and earth. Up in the heavens and beside Jacob. Interceding on our behalf in the heavens, yet beside us. He is the Gate. He is the only access we have into the Kingdom of Heaven. He met with Jacob then as he met with the Jews only in different form. Now he meets with us through His Holy Spirit.
“The Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of Heaven. It has always been. The Gate is where God chooses it to be. Jesus is the door, and the gate, but he did not appear to Jacob as the Jesus of the New Testament, since he was not named ‘Jesus’ yet, or born of the virgin, so could only have been the Gate Jacob named in a prophetic way, which would declare that there was an entrance point to the Church, which is the Body of Christ, Christ being the Head. We enter through the veil, that is Christ’s flesh, and through his blood.”
From my understanding, the Kingdom of Heaven is the spiritual kingdom.
The Kingdom of God is the Physical Kingdom.
We will see this same physical kingdom as the Jews are expecting when Christ returns to rule in the 1000 yr period. Christ is the gateway to both the spiritual and physical Kingdom. However, first one must be given a new life; being born again spiritually by accepting Christ to access the Kingdom of Heaven. Through our spiritual bond as Christ’s bride we have power and authority in the spiritual realm. These things can be made to manifest in the physical realm.
Later, one must be given new bodies to rule in the physical Kingdom of God. This happens when we are raised from the dead- where me manifest the Kingdom of Heaven in the Physical. In the Kingdom of God we will be given authority, not only in the spiritual world but in the physical world. We will rule with him.
The marriage supper of the Lamb not only marries us to Christ, but also merges the physical Kingdom with the Spiritual Kingdom into the perfect Kingdom of God here on earth. Just like how two nations become reconciled when a foreign prince marries a foreign princess, so to will the Kingdom of Heaven be manifest through the physical Kingdom, the Kingdom of God.
Can you see why it’s important that Christ only is the gate? The only way? The only ladder? The only mediator?
At least you had a good taste of my beliefs. My beliefs change every now and then, so maybe I’m still speaking out of some ignorance. But I’m passionate about learning these things and this is what I currently believe.
“The Gate of Heaven Jacob saw was an access point to the Presence of God. It was marked by a stone at Bethel.”
God could have visited Jacob anywhere, which God did do. Later in another dream, God wrestled with Jacob. If this didn’t happen first, he might have called the wrestling location Bethel. The probable reason why Jacob called the place ‘House of God’ was because this was the same place God revealed to Abraham that this was to be the land granted to Abraham’s HOUSEHOLD.
Abraham is Jacob’s grand-father. If this was the place God spoke to Abraham and then the first place to speak directly to Jacob about their descendants living in this land, it makes sense that Jacob would call the location ‘House of God’.
It seems, by accident, that Jacob didn’t realise that he stumbled upon where His grandfather met God powerfully and was given a promise. So to remember the significance of the place, he named the place ‘Bethel’.
May 25, 2008 at 3:01 pm
FL says:
“You limit the Gates of Heaven to a certain place and time. I say it is here, and could be in any place where God is honoured, or where He deems to appear…
It is quite reasonable to use the Gates of Heaven as an analogy of the Church.”
Where did I limit the ‘Gates of Heaven’ to a certain place and time?
And can you further expand your explanation on the ‘Gates of Heaven’ as an analogy of the church?
May 26, 2008 at 3:17 am
you are not righteousness, i am righteousness.
June 25, 2008 at 12:04 am
Matthew 623’s response to Josh Kelsey
http://matthewsixtwentythree.blogspot.com/2008/06/god-has-been-speaking-to-me.html
June 25, 2008 at 12:52 am
I found a fantastic Jewish article written about Jacob and his encounters with God. It seems to push that Jacob continually had encounters had encounters with God but still didn’t know him. They saw allot of what Jacob said to mean very little as he spoke out of ignorance as he had no understanding of God and thought he could exploit this God through his works. I’ll see if I can find it. We did a a bible study on this. It was well received.
And that’s a great find teddy. Poor bill palmer! A lover of truth and goodwill. If CCC didn’t kick him, he would have really blessed the place with his knowledge.
July 21, 2008 at 6:22 am
Ok so whatI don’t get is how everyone is having a rant about this, because if you are believing in God then you should be totally amping that people are doing stuff to build his kingdom, Do you just want to check yourselves that you are not being jelous that these guys are actually getting vsions from God and having the guts to take a step out in faith and actually live for him, actually do something about what this blog is about which, is awakining confrence which is about Young Adults being unified and impacted by God. And in Comment to phil pringle aparently not being apart of the Jesus revolution, if he wasn’t back then… he most surely is now! And he bult his church in 1980, he didnt get saved then. So maybe he was in part of it?
Seriously, just because you are writing in blogs does not scrap you out from being apart of the kingdom of God, it doesn’t mean that you are exempt from the commandments in mark 12:30 Jesus tells us that the greates commandment is to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ and if you are lovng God you are loving your brothers and sisters as yourself, as it goes on to say about loving your neighbour….. so really what is this gaining? are yu really building the kingdom of heaven? As sons and daughtes of christ? or are you just being like kids who don’t agree and don’t want to move forward,
These guys are all doing such amazing things for the kingdom of God, and as a young person, i Do see why maybe Anglican, Baptist etc are feeling stink, but i used to go to an anglican church, and yeah God cranked it there but I just couldn’t hack it, i needed to really feel the presence of God, i needed to have a place where i could bring my friends and know that they would recieve somethig from God, and yeah God was in tha church, but if you have never heard about God you are not going to go to something super old with music and people you find old and really wierd,
So you have to market it at the age group… in a language that young people or the people understand because a non churched person wont Go because you tell them to! Seriously it doesn’t work like that, But when they see people that are totallly passionate abot what they do, they see that they really do have something in there life that is keepin them cranking, thatis something that changes people, somrthing that makes them maybe a bit more keen to go.
If you see someone who doesn’t give a crap about whatthey are advertising would you go?
God is not about kicking it back in the day he is about moving forward, and if you are not into that then sweet, but don’t bitch about other peple who are doing gods will and totally making a difference in the world, by giving people an opportunity to experience the grace and love of God. As christians the light and love of God should be shining at all times, so seriously what is so bad about wha they are saying, there message is OUR HEARTS HIS GLORY, are we missing that point by getting stuck on our own selfish crap? our hearts are for the glory of God, so we need to not focus on our selves but on him and all our stuff will come as we focus on him!
July 21, 2008 at 6:30 am
Hey JustMe. Thankyou for sharing and provoking us to think about what we do for the kingdom. I have personally met a few people from signposts and they are wonderful people. They tend be just as effective as these people you look up to. There are some extraordinary people on Signposts.
Sometimes we write emotionally. Other times we are more observant, critical or relaxed in our posts. I would like to comment about some of the things you raised. You’ve made some very interesting observations where I would like to share another perspective with you. It seems like you attend CCC Change.
July 21, 2008 at 7:37 am
Hey,
I actually don’t attend change, i go to a ccc in new zealand, and i go to primal, aswell as running the christian group at my school. So although my heart is in what Primal and C3 is doing, I do have to lok from other perspectives and all that, but i think it is about us building the kingdom of God, where ever we go… we as people are the church and in unity there is so much power, and as 2 or 3 amazing things can happen they honestly can but as this body of christ grows (and that is what we are wanting?) we need to raise up together, unified. well for me my heart is to see this world changed by God, and it really doesn’t matter what church you go to… but if we cut each other down we are kind of being like ok God you are amazing but i hate what you are using this person to do, i don’t think its right… and thats not our place to have that attitude, coz if we do then it just hurts people around us and prevents these people that don’t know God from coming to know him… And like phil pringle does amazing things and his heart is for this movement he has started, and trust me when God has put something on yur heart you can’t help but rave about it, Thats whats happend for me and my high school.
But aswell yu knd of have to put yourself in his shoes because he has to run a movement across the globe, we just go to church and do stuff and that can get hardcore, he is in it 24/7, and us as humans are so far from perfect, so we are going to make mistakes.
I Guess just stuff to think about
July 21, 2008 at 8:17 am
I totaly don’t mean it as a stink thing to the people on here, i get that its like a discussion thing,
but really so many people are doing amazing things Like Benny Hinn, Tim Hall, Yongi Cho, and Brian Houston Etc, i just don’t think that it is fair for us to knock what they are/have done to bring Glory to God and a new passion and inspiration to the people around us, because they are people who God has chosen to crank it and they would not be able to do what they do with out God, becaus the amount of stff that comes against you from christians and non christians would be crazy insane, so you really do have to be called to do it, and you don’t have to be a huge pro preacher or whatever to impact people because it is the way us as christian people live ur daily lives, the way we walk talk and do life that has an amazing impact, when we make that choice to leave our lives behind and follow the life of christ, we need to let Christ who is alive in us show, as hard as it can be to let go of stuff that hacks us off, of stuff that makes us get fired up, we have to show love and kindness from the deepest places of our heart… because when we rise above, an know that we are living for something bigger, that is when people go what the heck, that person is nice to everyone, that person is not fake, they actually mean it when they’re nice. They have problems happening but yet they are ok, they have have hope in something… maybe i need that too…
Because as much as we don’t want to have a superficial Jesus thing happening, the world is totally watching christian people and for us to actually come together and not cut down the people who are chosen to lead, but be the change we want to be in the world… as cheesey as that is… because by having grumps and what not about stuf aren’t we kinda stooping to some form of worldly level? like we aren’t above above people but we should be cranking the positive rather than just adding to the negitive that is dished out by this world?
July 21, 2008 at 9:00 am
JustMe JustSaid:
“Ok so whatI don’t get is how everyone is having a rant about this, because if you are believing in God then you should be totally amping that people are doing stuff to build his kingdom, Do you just want to check yourselves that you are not being jelous that these guys are actually getting vsions from God and having the guts to take a step out in faith and actually live for him, actually do something about what this blog is about which, is awakining confrence which is about Young Adults being unified and impacted by God. And in Comment to phil pringle aparently not being apart of the Jesus revolution, if he wasn’t back then… he most surely is now! And he built his church in 1980, he didnt get saved then. So maybe he was in part of it?”
I took it back, that my knowledge of Phil and the JM for being slightly askew. But he did come right into it at the end of the move. He is NOT apart of it. He only serves to be an embarassment to the movement. He would be the very person who would have kicked out people from the movement. Research the movement first and then spend a few weeks in Phil’s ministry to see if it’s anything like it. He has simply added to the corruption of the Jesus Movement and has built his own empire dynasty out of it.
“Seriously, just because you are writing in blogs does not scrap you out from being apart of the kingdom of God, it doesn’t mean that you are exempt from the commandments in mark 12:30 Jesus tells us that the greates commandment is to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ and if you are lovng God you are loving your brothers and sisters as yourself, as it goes on to say about loving your neighbour….. so really what is this gaining? are you really building the kingdom of heaven? As sons and daughters of christ? or are you just being like kids who don’t agree and don’t want to move forward,”
I believe so. One thing I found attractive about Signposts was that it engaged in intellectual discussion (most of the time) on important issues. What I hope this blog achieves now that I run it is a bit more respect for people who share there opinions. I respect yours and have listened to your comments. I hope that you have time to listen what we have to say. There are many unintelligent Christians that give Christianity a bad name. Signposts shows people that there are independent Christians who are aware of the wolves and bad things things that happen in the church. In our attempt to expose, address or contemplate certain issues, they can see that we are trying to live responsible Christian lives and make those in authority accountable and responsible. Unfortunately Phil Pringle is not. If you browse a few articles here on Signposts or on other places on the web, you can see why.
Out of love, I would like this blog to make people aware of some of the things that go on in CCC and Hillsong and other abusive ministries that are not healthy and can be quite dangerous. I try to promote Christians to think and question what they are taught.
Our biggest problem is what you’ve just put your finger on. Sometimes we can go into minor details that may be irrelevant to the problems. Some of these minor things that I seem to address are major to me, unfortunately. It looks like I majored a minor.
JustMe JustSaid:
These guys are all doing such amazing things for the kingdom of God, and as a young person, i Do see why maybe Anglican, Baptist etc are feeling stink, but i used to go to an anglican church, and yeah God cranked it there but I just couldn’t hack it, i needed to really feel the presence of God, i needed to have a place where i could bring my friends and know that they would recieve somethig from God, and yeah God was in tha church, but if you have never heard about God you are not going to go to something super old with music and people you find old and really wierd,”
These are issues we explore. If CCC equips local ministries, why don’t they help have outreaches with the anglican church? Why isn’t the anglican church where you are from more focussed on winning young people? Will ministries work together or will they remain divided? Why doesn’t the church teach people how to win the unsaved to God rather encourage people to come to church to be saved? Wouldn’t that solve a few problems?
JustMe JustSaid:
So you have to market it at the age group… in a language that young people or the people understand because a non churched person wont Go because you tell them to! Seriously it doesn’t work like that, But when they see people that are totallly passionate abot what they do, they see that they really do have something in there life that is keepin them cranking, thatis something that changes people, somrthing that makes them maybe a bit more keen to go.
If you see someone who doesn’t give a crap about whatthey are advertising would you go?”
If people are passionate about God, would they really care what type of church they go to? It seems that as long as young people are with young people that’s what keeps them passionate. Is this meaning of ‘passion’ biblical? To me this form of passion is a lie. And this lie is bred through marketing. A lie that you will be forever on fire for God and conquer the world. We need to be so careful what passion drives us. My time in CCC has proven again and again that sensationalism is what drives people, not the Holy Spirit. In experience and feelings is what people going to church. God is more then just an experience or some wonder drug. I’ve studied marketing, specifically to young audiences and it is incredibly unhealthy, manipulative and down-right deceptive or divisive. Emotions and imagery play an important role in propaganda. This is what certain churches use to promote their ‘noble’ cause.
JustMe JustSaid:
“God is not about kicking it back in the day he is about moving forward, and if you are not into that then sweet, but don’t bitch about other peple who are doing gods will and totally making a difference in the world, by giving people an opportunity to experience the grace and love of God.”
I seriously question Phil’s motives with his movement. His doctrines aren’t biblical, his movement borders on cult-like and he continually seems to undermine God and his church. Do you forget that WE DO NOT BUILD HIS CHURCH? Christ builds the church. And yet CCC as a whole brags about building the church and saving the lost.
JustMe JustSaid:
As christians the light and love of God should be shining at all times, so seriously what is so bad about wha they are saying, there message is OUR HEARTS HIS GLORY, are we missing that point by getting stuck on our own selfish crap? our hearts are for the glory of God, so we need to not focus on our selves but on him and all our stuff will come as we focus on him!
Now here’s a contradiction right here. Maybe your minister is different, but what did he teach you last week and the week before? Things about how to make you a better person? Ten ways to become prosperous? Why it’s important to give? How you can live with influence? How to live you dreams? How to live a life with faith? How to obtain excellence? By all means we need not focus on ourselves, but CCC OFGS preaching usually does.
July 21, 2008 at 10:25 am
What is so wrong with learning how to be a better person? could that not be what we are striving to do each day? we are focusing this month on the favour of God, connecting with God, living in his glory…
You say that we do not build his church? did Jesus not say to peter “on this rock i will build my church” peter was a disciple of christ, we are also called to be disciples and make disciple of all nations… so therefore we ar called to build the chrch through the body of christ…
Yeah God is More than just an experience or a drug as you say, he is the creator of the heavens and the earth, and we live with faith in him, faith by being sure of what we hope for and certian of what we can not see, and i am not going to crank the being a christian is so glorious and so easy thing, because it is not, it is without a doubt the hardest thing to follow God, get up pray and read the bible everyday, and build on the relationship i have, sometimes stuff goes wrong, things don’t happen the way you want them to, but that is why you have people around you that keep you encouraged, which is why for so many young people they go where there is other young people, because they are weak and they need to have the people around them to keep them “safe” it is one thing to get them to come to church, but to get them to come to church without young people in it, that would be crazy mission, and im not talking young people that go to church or have known God before, i mean complete never set foot in church before young people. Even for me at school, i see the kids that i know have been in church forever have totally had amzing stuff happen in there worlds, yet they show absolute zero amount of God in the way they do life, as a young person, you are so easily influenced by the people around you, and the marketing for church events is seriously not that bad, i don’t know about aussie, but in new zealand, the marketing for example burger king is like girls eating burgers wearing bikinis on horses… that is down right deceptive marketing, burgers do not equal skinny burgers do not come with hot girl on a horse….. ever. that is totally unhealthy. where as church advertising doesn’t say that, and at events i have been to young people get a touch of God in there worlds, and they enter into the presece of God, yeah he is always with us and will never leave nor forsake us, but sometimes you just can’t feel him. and these people have that life changing moment, so how can that really be that bad, atleast some way some how they are recieving God in there worlds.
The lost do need to be saved though, i don’t know about other people but my friends and my family who don’t know God i don’t want them to die and not Go to heaven, i want to kick it with them for eternity. Because what really is the point of life if we keep God all to ourselves and only show the people who know about him? for real though how would you get young people in to church??
And just about the opinions thing, yeah that is totally important, and this has been cool like discussing this because you so need to be able to listen to others thoughts and all that, and respect for your thoughts too!
And just in the ministries working together thing, i don’t know why they don’t do that, but i know that people from other churches go and speak at events held by different churches, is that not helping with out reach? I ran youth at the anglican church, but the stuff that i wanted to do was not really accepted, like the older people were not really into mving into the new stuff.. music and that, and i was not in the best place spiritually, i didn’t have my relationship with God on a level of leadership slash i didn’t really have the relationship at ll, it was just God is big he rocks, lets do fun stuff, and lets just go out and do all this other un godly fun stuff too… so i did that some how went to a primal youthchurch and it stole my heart and i wrestled with god on changing churches fo a few months, and he told me to change, and it has been the most life changing thing for me. As i have grown in God and all that. and that is what happen for the youth there, there has now been a youth pastor employed and they are starting a new group up.
But man you are so so allowed to have your thoughts and its cool that there is this site for people to talk about stuff, and its cool that you encourage christians to think about what they are taught.
For me, i do not feel that the c3 / hillsong churches are abusive, we have sermons and all that on a sunday and at youth etc and the word that is preached and all that totally inspires me to deepen my relationship with God, build on my faith, make my vision bigger, and i am able to have support from people around me, for the things that i do, i am able to recieve things from God, and that is what is important to me in a church. among other things… but i totally need to sleep right now.
Thanks for the thinking, and no hard feelings either.
July 21, 2008 at 2:07 pm
JustMe JustSaid:
But really so many people are doing amazing things Like Benny Hinn, Tim Hall, Yongi Cho, and Brian Houston Etc, i just don’t think that it is fair for us to knock what they are/have done to bring Glory to God and a new passion and inspiration to the people around us, because they are people who God has chosen to crank it and they would not be able to do what they do with out God, because the amount of stuff that comes against you from Christians and non Christians would be crazy insane.
Unfortunately, we promote people to be aware of some of those people you have mentioned. A few years ago I went to Benny Hinn and was convinced he was a man of God. And now I am completely convinced he is a wolf. His doctrines, his greed and his lack of trust with the government to see if he is honest with his finances is troubling. We need to remain aware that even though that God raises wonderful men and women of God, they are still human and can fall into terrible pride and be transformed by greed. But once God has given them wonderful gifts, it says in the bible that He will not take back the gifts he has given. So there are people who do work signs and wonders in the church and take advantage of others because of them. Until he repents and shows he can be trusted, I don’t want him to return to Australia. His time in CCC at OFGS proved this man was a huckster. It was so disturbing. It would have made you want to get out of the building.
Joyce Meyer is another wonderful woman of God. In news I’ve received from friends of Hillsong, she was invited to speak a few weeks ago ended up rebuking the church for being a club and not getting out and being in the community. Some nice advice. However a years ago at a Hillsong conference she apologised to everyone for teaching out of ignorance things she did not know. She had received a revelation on what it means to be a mother in the faith and she apologised for a number of the things she taught. It was incredibly beautiful. But you have to wonder, and I’m sure she wonders too, how much damage was undone.
Bentley, Bevere, Cho, Comfort, Copeland, Creflo, Houston, Jacobs, Munsey, Osteen, Warren… And other pastors, leaders and prophets in general, we become skeptic about. We all debate, discuss and argue and see many different sides (and sometimes miss seeing the other persons side completely). We either leave them alone because they’re alright until another article comes up or labels them as being unsafe and hopefully promote unsafe ministries so that people may not be abused by them. I’d consider CCC OFGS quite an unsafe ministry. Some would go further and label Phil Pringle as a wolf. I’m on the fence with this at the moment.
What I do know is that other various CCC ministries have very little to do with CCCOF and just get along in their suburbs and communities with much success. But the train of doctrine, how one must think, behave and get on in a church environment is still there. Probably in your church. A few doctrines that are not biblical are doctrines such as the Prosperity Doctrine, Submission Doctrine, Word of Faith Doctrine, Covering Doctrine and Tithe Doctrine. One really deceptive one that appears harmless but is probably one of the worst is what I call Magazine Preaching- Ten Ways To Become A Better Person. This is something that is really common but leaves each member hungry for more next week but never gets them closer to God because they are so focused on works. The talk would generally teach you how to become a better person, an influential person, a powerful person, a perfect person, fulfilled person, happy person and a person of EXCELLENCE. It’s works and condemnation. And it has devastated quite a few I know from CCCOF.
I may be wrong, but I found you kind of echoed this kind of preaching here:
“So you really do have to be called to do it, and you don’t have to be a huge pro preacher or whatever to impact people because it is the way us as christian people live ur daily lives, the way we walk talk and do life that has an amazing impact, when we make that choice to leave our lives behind and follow the life of Christ, we need to let Christ who is alive in us show, as hard as it can be to let go of stuff that hacks us off, of stuff that makes us get fired up, we have to show love and kindness from the deepest places of our heart… because when we rise above, an know that we are living for something bigger, that is when people go what the heck, that person is nice to everyone, that person is not fake, they actually mean it when they’re nice. They have problems happening but yet they are ok, they have have hope in something… maybe i need that too…”
Don’t get me wrong, it’s a nice attribute to have, but it’s impossible unless you spend quality time with God in prayer and scripture, also being open to His Spirit. There will come a time when you are at CCC you will see them wanting you to support them, their movement, their vision and want you to be one of the thousands that fill their stadiums; but at the same time they are still wanting to prepare you to ‘get out there’, because you’r not good enough yet. But maybe next Sunday. They will possibly encourage you to come to SOM so that they can refine your thinking and show you how the game is played. But as I said earlier, maybe CCCOF doesn’t have tight reigns where you are. I’m surprised the mother lets her children run around so freely. That’s good for you.
JustMe JustSaid:
“Because as much as we don’t want to have a superficial Jesus thing happening, the world is totally watching christian people and for us to actually come together and not cut down the people who are chosen to lead, but be the change we want to be in the world… as cheesy as that is… because by having grumps and what not about stuff aren’t we kinda stooping to some form of worldly level? like we aren’t above above people but we should be cranking the positive rather than just adding to the negative that is dished out by this world?”
Actually. The world is not watching you and me. They are watching those that parade on the TV screens and then have an opinion on who believes these ‘big guys’. You don’t think those pastors in business suits who parade like peacocks with their ‘influence’ have had effect on how people portray Christianity? Through these guys they have already labeled you and me as being stupid, gullible and as though we have no idea what we are talking about. I think some pastors have made the church look so worldly that they make us look like an embarrassment to the rest of the world. You have to fight their conditioned stereotyped view of Christianity. For us to fight back and to have an opinion could mean we’re worldly. Or it could mean we are trying to discover and fight for what are true spiritual freedoms really are.
BTW. It sounds your CCC in New Zealand sounds nowhere near as sick as the mother one does in OF (Oxford Falls). The superficial Jesus is pretty strong and ripe at the moment, especially with their Presence Conference this year, the way they handled World Youth Day here and the way they bagged them out and discouraged people from going. They were sponsors of the event yet slagged them out pretty badly.
For a church that is meant to be changing the world, they encourage their ministry students to stick to their movements and offer very little help to local churches in Sydney and other places of the world. I have heard a few reports of this happening.
I have also heard shocking reports of them mimicking other ministries or offering services to the sick that other ministries have been dealing with and then supplied transport and more expensive services to get them to come to their church. Those churches were very unhappy. Someone in CCCOF made those choices to sheep steal. CCCOF offers NO support to local ministries. I have not heard of one instance. I have met some SOM students who, for some reason (and I believe have been taught), believe that any other ministry that is not CCC is a failure. This is because they have not embraced strong leadership and struggle with their faith in where God wants to take them.
JustMe JustSaid:
“because by having grumps and what not about stuff aren’t we kinda stooping to some form of worldly level? like we aren’t above above people but we should be cranking the positive rather than just adding to the negative that is dished out by this world?”
Would you consider Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah, Hosea, John, Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, Luther, Theresa and Mandela being worldly for fighting against authority and taking a stand on issues they believed in. I hope you continue to explore what is on a ‘wordly level’ and what isn’t. It’s like every family has a grumpy gramps. And the human body will always have some unatractive detail to them. Consider Signposts02 as being the ‘unnoticeable eye’. While CCC and other glamour organisations do their job as the body of Christ, it might be good once in while for them to listen to the eye in their pants to see if their teachings are being digested well. Not all functions in the body of Christ are fun or pretty in the slightest. But all have a function and bring glory to God. I have trouble with those who have gifts of excorcism and leadership. Leadership have problems with prophets. Prophets have problems with leadership and ‘pastors’. ‘Pastors’ have problems with ‘teachers’. But as long as each member of the body listens and respects what the other parts of the body, the body will remain in good health. Their are some churches that refuse to function and listen to the wider body. Yours might be and sound and completely healthy.
July 21, 2008 at 2:42 pm
JustMe JustSaid:
“You say that we do not build his church? did Jesus not say to peter “on this rock i will build my church” peter was a disciple of christ, we are also called to be disciples and make disciple of all nations… so therefore we ar called to build the chrch through the body of Christ.”
We need to acknowledge that the church is the people. God brings man salvation. He convicts and moves in. When we are called to make disciples, we aren’t calling people to be saved. We are calling those certain individuals to push on with their relationship with God; having God himself disciple them- not us disciple man. By all means we should help our fellow brother. But above else we need to make sure that dialogue and relationship between God and person is fully functional so God can guide them to greater things. So we do not build his church, God does. We help point and make people rely on Christ as their teacher, not ourselves.
JustMe JustSaid:
“Which is why for so many young people they go where there is other young people, because they are weak and they need to have the people around them to keep them “safe” it is one thing to get them to come to church, but to get them to come to church without young people in it, that would be crazy mission, and I’m not talking young people that go to church or have known God before, i mean complete never set foot in church before young people. Even for me at school, i see the kids that i know have been in church forever have totally had amazing stuff happen in there worlds, yet they show absolute zero amount of God in the way they do life, as a young person, you are so easily influenced by the people around you, and the marketing for church events is seriously not that bad, i don’t know about Aussie, but in new zealand, the marketing for example burger king is like girls eating burgers wearing bikinis on horses… that is down right deceptive marketing, burgers do not equal skinny burgers do not come with hot girl on a horse….. ever. that is totally unhealthy. where as church advertising doesn’t say that, and at events i have been to young people get a touch of God in there worlds, and they enter into the presence of God, yeah he is always with us and will never leave nor forsake us, but sometimes you just can’t feel him. and these people have that life changing moment, so how can that really be that bad, at least some way some how they are receiving God in there worlds.”
Let me give you insight into the world of marketing. It was only in the early 1990’s that the advertising industry suddenly realized the potential of teen marketing and targeting gullible ages from 2-25. They know psychology. They know colour, shape, light and what we respond too. They know the power of sex and know how to portray something powerful, influential, enticing, new, exciting, sensational and experiential. Through marketing, they have specifically separated kids from parents. Companies are now the better parents (because they know what is better for you). Unfortunately, the church has not noticed this and it has crept into church culture, environment and church advertising. Because of it, elders and youth have trouble bridging such a gap. Some churches struggle with this. But the idea that youth are always separate from parents, married couples, middle-sged, singles and elders; the idea of segregation of age really breaks up the natural bonds between child and parent; teen and elder, etc. How does one talk to an old man? Is he left out? Are you at all encouraged at all to listen to his stories and wisdom? Churches, just like companies, take the place of parents or grandparents and re-inforce young people that young people and the church are all you need to have a healthy, stable, successful Christian life. This is not true. Friends add to your life, but they are not foundational as parents. The church similarly starts taking the parents role and demands the youth to spend time with the organisation and ‘friends’ rather then family and parents.
JustMe JustSaid:
“The lost do need to be saved though, i don’t know about other people but my friends and my family who don’t know God i don’t want them to die and not Go to heaven, i want to kick it with them for eternity. Because what really is the point of life if we keep God all to ourselves and only show the people who know about him? for real though how would you get young people in to church?”
If you really love them, you’ll spend more time with them I guess. If God has put a hunger in you to see your family saved, go for it. You’ll be in my prayers mate.
JustMe JustSaid:
“And just about the opinions thing, yeah that is totally important, and this has been cool like discussing this because you so need to be able to listen to others thoughts and all that, and respect for your thoughts too!”
I’ve written back to you. But don’t underestimate what you’ve written. The cogs in my brain are turning as I contemplate what you’ve said. Thankyou for your time.
JustMe JustSaid:
And just in the ministries working together thing, i don’t know why they don’t do that, but i know that people from other churches go and speak at events held by different churches, is that not helping with out reach?
My understanding of an idea of outreach is churches combining resources to pull off an important yet fun event for a community. To see it blessed, impacted, changed and saved. Having a few individuals from one church may represent ‘a’ church, but it’s not as, I believe, effective.
JustMe JustSaid:
I ran youth at the anglican church, but the stuff that i wanted to do was not really accepted, like the older people were not really into moving into the new stuff.. music and that, and i was not in the best place spiritually, i didn’t have my relationship with God on a level of leadership slash i didn’t really have the relationship at ll, it was just God is big he rocks, lets do fun stuff, and lets just go out and do all this other un godly fun stuff too… so i did that some how went to a primal youthchurch and it stole my heart and i wrestled with god on changing churches fo a few months, and he told me to change, and it has been the most life changing thing for me. As i have grown in God and all that. and that is what happen for the youth there, there has now been a youth pastor employed and they are starting a new group up.”
Well it’s important to know that no church owns you and your lifestyle. God does. It’s good to be in a church that keeps you accountable by word, spirit and action. Are you at PRIMAL for a season or for a good while until God calls you elsewhere?
JustMe JustSaid:
But man you are so so allowed to have your thoughts and its cool that there is this site for people to talk about stuff, and its cool that you encourage christians to think about what they are taught.
Well we’d love to hear what your church is up too locally and if there is any cool thing that you’ve learnt from your teachers or any cool revelation you receive. We love to ponder and take on board what others say. We’d love to heare about what type of community work CCCNZ do and what the people are like at your church.
JustMe JustSaid:
“For me, i do not feel that the c3 / hillsong churches are abusive, we have sermons and all that on a sunday and at youth etc and the word that is preached and all that totally inspires me to deepen my relationship with God, build on my faith, make my vision bigger, and i am able to have support from people around me, for the things that i do, i am able to recieve things from God, and that is what is important to me in a church. among other things… but i totally need to sleep right now.”
Well I’m happy that you haven’t seen or been through any of the things that some members from Signposts have gone through with various church ministries in Australia, including Hillsong and CCC (and now including Brisbane Christian Fellowship, BCF).
Have a good night. I hope to hear from you soon.
July 21, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Wow! I gotta stop writing so much!
July 22, 2008 at 9:31 am
Well said S&P. JM – I’m impressed that while you disagree with many of our views, you do so without condeming us for having them. Thanks.
I would say that when I was ‘youth’, I would have agreed with JM’s approach completely. I was at CCCOF, before it moved to OF. Over the years, those views have been challenged, and now I see things along the lines that S&P has described here. I would always want to acknowledge that God does indeed work through CCC and Hillsong, and through those who seek to serve Him everywhere.
Still, I can’t see scriptural justification for many of their dearly held doctrines, particularly those about hierarchical leadership structures, especially the corporate model, prosperity doctrine and open heaven etc (that last is essentially heaven opening to you as a result of obedience; plus the church is sometimes portrayed as the ‘gateway to heaven’ implying you get less access elsewhere).
I know from my own walk and that of friends both within and without the CCC movement that certainly if one desires a relationship with God more than the approval of man, that we will be led in God’s direction for our lives and our relationship with Him will deepen. Regardless of where we are. For me, that has led me out of the CCC movement. Nonetheless, there was a time when it was good for me to be there.
God bless you, JM.
July 22, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Okay. I initially said:
“They were the outcome of it. From my understanding, in talking to many people, including my parents and elders that were apart of it- it was noted as an official movement and started in 1965, ending , many have said, between 1975-1980. With the movement in Australia, definitely before the year 1980. However, the movement still left an impact on Christendom- some would say for the better, others would say for the worst. The Pringles were NEVER apart of it but were an outcome of it.”
I WAS WRONG. And so were those that ASSUMED INCORRECTLY. I’ve learnt assumation is not good enough when criticising someone’s take on history; that’s where myths come from.
I managed to put my tendrils and feelers out and managed to learn some fascinating things. A good friend of mine from CCC managed to get me some very old interesting documents pertaining to Phil and CCCOF Sydney.
It documents that in “1972 God laid a vision and a burden in Phil Pringles’s heart for the city of Sydney”.
This particular document doesn’t have a date as to when it was made but it says “Thirteen years ago Phil Pringle had a dramatic and perhaps unexpected conversion to Jesus Christ… His zeal for Christ paved the way for youth leadership in a church in New Zealand, that was experiencing a spiritual revival. Hundreds of “hippies” and “alternative-life-styles” encountered a new way of living through Phil’s ministry. After five years Pastor Pringle began a church of his own”.
In “1980, Pastor Pringle and Simon McIntyre arrived in Sydney knowing God had called them to this city”. Around Easter, in Deewhy, “the church met with twelve adults and their children under the name of CHRISTIAN CENTRE”. At the end of 1980, over 150 people were attending CC. “In 1981 the house church system began”. At the end of 1981, CC had approximately 200-300 people. By 1984, “the church had grown to approximately 1200 people. The primary school initially called “Northside Christian School opened to 18 infants and primary children in 1984″.
So between 1971-1972, Phil met God. In 1972 he felt called to start a church in Sydney. For five years, led a youth group. Lets consider 1-2 years were building up to that position of youth leader and earning money (1974-5). That means he would have finished roughly between (1978-9). I would tend to lean that Phil started youth ministry between 1975-1979. And then a few years hard slog working for money to get to Australia (1978-1980).
Good on the bloke! He certainly has achieved a lot. Apparently he used to evangelise down at the manly corso and helped the homeless down there too. He did operate in signs and healings. It seems he also had a van to transport people and foods to Manly.
I think this document was published in 1985.
Statement from his book “You the Leader”:
“I walked into the Sunday evening service of a church in Christchurch, New Zealand in August 1971 and heard the gospel of Jesus Christ clearly for the first time. As Dennis Barton preached, I felt compelled to receive Christ as my Savior. Dennis and his dear wife Barbara were to become a powerful influence over my life. They took a deep interest in Chris and me and the friends we brought to church. Shortly after my conversion, literally hundreds of young people began turning to the Lord in that church…” -Phil Pringle
July 30, 2008 at 10:17 am
Sorry I haven’t written back, been super busy with stuff, but thank you ravingpente for your comment about me not condemning signposts people. Totally trying not to! And sorry if i have!!! But this has been really cool for me because you don’t have hardcore ultiate convos about this… like you do but maybe only 75% as ultimate as the discussion on here.
I don’t have time to write back to everything, should be sleeping at the moment.. opps
But just about the season thing, yeah totally, I’m in life for God, so where he wants me is totally where im gonna be, and at the moment he is blessing me with amazing opportunities to do stuff for him so that is fantastic.
In a way i get the gateway to heaven thing… like you can totally get in to God any where any time… but in a church there are things that happen there… “signs and wonders” in-short, like people get healed set free from sin, have gifts, visions and all that happen and those things leave a residue you could say of God, so you go in to a church and the presence of God is there in abundance, like you can feel it, where say when you are out at a restaurant the presence of God is there, but you don’t quite feel it in the same way, if that makes sense? so in a way it is the gate of heaven for it is where people come to know God and make a choice to follow him, therefore entering the gate of heaven…. having eternal life, not quite going to heaven on the spot, people can totally make that choice anywhere but church is the place it is most often made. Just a thought to add to the pile.
And with the hol people cranking Jesus stuff for wrong things… Some people do, but they get good and bad things out of it, like benny hinn does get amazing things and stuff, i personally have seen him and i liked his brothers message more than him healing people, jus the way he did it was freaky, like he was really brutal, bt i was like, ok God you have Got this, please don’t let anyone get super hurt. It was totally God doing it, but just kinda brutal… well not as bad as this doco i watched one time about “John of God” of anything ive heard Godly people do that tops the list of you totally do a ton of harm to the hol God thing… but apart from him I don’t want to knock these people who are doing things, because as far as i have seen, they do do great things for God, some in a kinda random way but it is a huge thing to stand up for God in such a huge spot light, like the amount of stick you would get from the media would totally suck, and the whole being away from your family lots and that. But i think i have said that before…
With the hol marketing thing, i think although it is marketed at young people to attract there attention, and stuff but also when you start to go to a church you meet other people and adults aswell that can speak in to your world from a christian view, becase i know that quite a few young people come from broken, non christian or just totally munted families, and for me it has been really amazing to have an extended family and older people that support me and talk to me about stuff. I still see my parents and that too.But for me i love hearing the stories from older members of the church about what theyre doing and what they have done and how they got through stuff and all that kind of stuff.
My Particular c3 church we run an alternitave education programme for those kids that have left school or been kicked out, so that they can gain credits to get jobs and qualifications. That is the main out reach thing that runs everyweek, but we do other things aswell.
Yeah the body thing, we totally all have to learn to respect each other!
Cool well ttyl
God Bless All
July 30, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Well, JM, you do know what I mean about the gateway to heaven thing – you do seem to have been taught about it at C3. It wasn’t taught when I first went there, although we all enjoyed the big meetings.
Recently I heard it taught at a C3 that only the church meeting was the ‘gateway to heaven’, and even other meetings during the week weren’t quite it.
I can relate to the experience you describe.
Yet, I can recall numerous occasions of being in the presence of God, as strongly in a small meeting, with 2, 3, 5 or 10 people only present, but truly worshipping or praying. This to me is in line with Jesus words when he said he was with us, whenever even 2 or 3 people gather in his name.
I have seen people get saved in these small settings. I’ve also seen healings result from prayer in these small meetings. And so forth. So while I agree that the big church meeting can have a wonderful presence of God about it, I don’t believe that God has limited His full presence to just those occasions. Jesus is our gateway to heaven, and we have Him everywhere. We can’t limit God’s fullness just to our church meetings, and we don’t have to depend upon those big meetings to really hear from Him, experience Him, or have Him answer our heartfelt prayers. We don’t have to ‘miss out’. If God wants to speak to us, He will, regardless of where we are, if our hearts are open to Him.
It is great to hear that you enjoy the company of elders, JM, and I also think its great to have that range of friendships.
Your C3’s alternative education programme sounds like a great initiative; its good to hear about things like that.
You are totally welcome here, JM – its good to have the discussions from lots of viewpoints, and as you say, with respect! I am sure that with your desire for God you will be led wherever He wants you.
August 14, 2008 at 1:43 pm
“I walked into the Sunday evening service of a church in Christchurch, New Zealand in August 1971 and heard the gospel of Jesus Christ clearly for the first time. As Dennis Barton preached, I felt compelled to receive Christ as my Savior. Dennis and his dear wife Barbara were to become a powerful influence over my life. They took a deep interest in Chris and me and the friends we brought to church. Shortly after my conversion, literally hundreds of young people began turning to the Lord in that church…” – Phil Pringle (book ‘You the Leader’)
September 12, 2008 at 8:21 am
This has to be the bitchiest post I think I’ve come across on here so far. Talk about specks and planks – man, ever thought about what that scripture is actually talking about?
What can I say. I guess after that post it doesn’t suprise me that you find brooke fraser the most harmless speaker on there. I guess selling sex to market your music is less of a sin to you then glossy church promos. (Knowing better and supporting them in it is even worse – but not going there on this site.)
I hate seeing Josh Kelsey and Joel Houston following their parents ministries to wherever they lead as well – but I like and respect their parents a lot too. Everyone should always be following their own call of God to where it leads – beyond that, you’re following the easy path for whatever reason.
Man. I’ve got a good friend on here who I think very highly of, but wiping the dust off my feet on this site. Slander is not helpful and constructive criticism. Ever.