What can I say. I guess after that post it doesn’t suprise me that you find brooke fraser the most harmless speaker on there. I guess selling sex to market your music is less of a sin to you then glossy church promos. (Knowing better and supporting them in it is even worse – but not going there on this site.)

I hate seeing Josh Kelsey and Joel Houston following their parents ministries to wherever they lead as well – but I like and respect their parents a lot too. Everyone should always be following their own call of God to where it leads – beyond that, you’re following the easy path for whatever reason.

Man. I’ve got a good friend on here who I think very highly of, but wiping the dust off my feet on this site. Slander is not helpful and constructive criticism. Ever.

Recently I heard it taught at a C3 that only the church meeting was the ‘gateway to heaven’, and even other meetings during the week weren’t quite it.

I can relate to the experience you describe.

Yet, I can recall numerous occasions of being in the presence of God, as strongly in a small meeting, with 2, 3, 5 or 10 people only present, but truly worshipping or praying. This to me is in line with Jesus words when he said he was with us, whenever even 2 or 3 people gather in his name.

I have seen people get saved in these small settings. I’ve also seen healings result from prayer in these small meetings. And so forth. So while I agree that the big church meeting can have a wonderful presence of God about it, I don’t believe that God has limited His full presence to just those occasions. Jesus is our gateway to heaven, and we have Him everywhere. We can’t limit God’s fullness just to our church meetings, and we don’t have to depend upon those big meetings to really hear from Him, experience Him, or have Him answer our heartfelt prayers. We don’t have to ‘miss out’. If God wants to speak to us, He will, regardless of where we are, if our hearts are open to Him.

It is great to hear that you enjoy the company of elders, JM, and I also think its great to have that range of friendships.

Your C3’s alternative education programme sounds like a great initiative; its good to hear about things like that.

You are totally welcome here, JM – its good to have the discussions from lots of viewpoints, and as you say, with respect! I am sure that with your desire for God you will be led wherever He wants you.

I don’t have time to write back to everything, should be sleeping at the moment.. opps

But just about the season thing, yeah totally, I’m in life for God, so where he wants me is totally where im gonna be, and at the moment he is blessing me with amazing opportunities to do stuff for him so that is fantastic.

In a way i get the gateway to heaven thing… like you can totally get in to God any where any time… but in a church there are things that happen there… “signs and wonders” in-short, like people get healed set free from sin, have gifts, visions and all that happen and those things leave a residue you could say of God, so you go in to a church and the presence of God is there in abundance, like you can feel it, where say when you are out at a restaurant the presence of God is there, but you don’t quite feel it in the same way, if that makes sense? so in a way it is the gate of heaven for it is where people come to know God and make a choice to follow him, therefore entering the gate of heaven…. having eternal life, not quite going to heaven on the spot, people can totally make that choice anywhere but church is the place it is most often made. Just a thought to add to the pile.

And with the hol people cranking Jesus stuff for wrong things… Some people do, but they get good and bad things out of it, like benny hinn does get amazing things and stuff, i personally have seen him and i liked his brothers message more than him healing people, jus the way he did it was freaky, like he was really brutal, bt i was like, ok God you have Got this, please don’t let anyone get super hurt. It was totally God doing it, but just kinda brutal… well not as bad as this doco i watched one time about “John of God” of anything ive heard Godly people do that tops the list of you totally do a ton of harm to the hol God thing… but apart from him I don’t want to knock these people who are doing things, because as far as i have seen, they do do great things for God, some in a kinda random way but it is a huge thing to stand up for God in such a huge spot light, like the amount of stick you would get from the media would totally suck, and the whole being away from your family lots and that. But i think i have said that before…

With the hol marketing thing, i think although it is marketed at young people to attract there attention, and stuff but also when you start to go to a church you meet other people and adults aswell that can speak in to your world from a christian view, becase i know that quite a few young people come from broken, non christian or just totally munted families, and for me it has been really amazing to have an extended family and older people that support me and talk to me about stuff. I still see my parents and that too.But for me i love hearing the stories from older members of the church about what theyre doing and what they have done and how they got through stuff and all that kind of stuff.

My Particular c3 church we run an alternitave education programme for those kids that have left school or been kicked out, so that they can gain credits to get jobs and qualifications. That is the main out reach thing that runs everyweek, but we do other things aswell.

Yeah the body thing, we totally all have to learn to respect each other!

Cool well ttyl

God Bless All

I WAS WRONG. And so were those that ASSUMED INCORRECTLY. I’ve learnt assumation is not good enough when criticising someone’s take on history; that’s where myths come from.

I managed to put my tendrils and feelers out and managed to learn some fascinating things. A good friend of mine from CCC managed to get me some very old interesting documents pertaining to Phil and CCCOF Sydney.

It documents that in “1972 God laid a vision and a burden in Phil Pringles’s heart for the city of Sydney”.

This particular document doesn’t have a date as to when it was made but it says “Thirteen years ago Phil Pringle had a dramatic and perhaps unexpected conversion to Jesus Christ… His zeal for Christ paved the way for youth leadership in a church in New Zealand, that was experiencing a spiritual revival. Hundreds of “hippies” and “alternative-life-styles” encountered a new way of living through Phil’s ministry. After five years Pastor Pringle began a church of his own”.

In “1980, Pastor Pringle and Simon McIntyre arrived in Sydney knowing God had called them to this city”. Around Easter, in Deewhy, “the church met with twelve adults and their children under the name of CHRISTIAN CENTRE”. At the end of 1980, over 150 people were attending CC. “In 1981 the house church system began”. At the end of 1981, CC had approximately 200-300 people. By 1984, “the church had grown to approximately 1200 people. The primary school initially called “Northside Christian School opened to 18 infants and primary children in 1984″.

So between 1971-1972, Phil met God. In 1972 he felt called to start a church in Sydney. For five years, led a youth group. Lets consider 1-2 years were building up to that position of youth leader and earning money (1974-5). That means he would have finished roughly between (1978-9). I would tend to lean that Phil started youth ministry between 1975-1979. And then a few years hard slog working for money to get to Australia (1978-1980).

Good on the bloke! He certainly has achieved a lot. Apparently he used to evangelise down at the manly corso and helped the homeless down there too. He did operate in signs and healings. It seems he also had a van to transport people and foods to Manly.

I think this document was published in 1985.

Statement from his book “You the Leader”:

“I walked into the Sunday evening service of a church in Christchurch, New Zealand in August 1971 and heard the gospel of Jesus Christ clearly for the first time. As Dennis Barton preached, I felt compelled to receive Christ as my Savior. Dennis and his dear wife Barbara were to become a powerful influence over my life. They took a deep interest in Chris and me and the friends we brought to church. Shortly after my conversion, literally hundreds of young people began turning to the Lord in that church…” -Phil Pringle

I would say that when I was ‘youth’, I would have agreed with JM’s approach completely. I was at CCCOF, before it moved to OF. Over the years, those views have been challenged, and now I see things along the lines that S&P has described here. I would always want to acknowledge that God does indeed work through CCC and Hillsong, and through those who seek to serve Him everywhere.

Still, I can’t see scriptural justification for many of their dearly held doctrines, particularly those about hierarchical leadership structures, especially the corporate model, prosperity doctrine and open heaven etc (that last is essentially heaven opening to you as a result of obedience; plus the church is sometimes portrayed as the ‘gateway to heaven’ implying you get less access elsewhere).

I know from my own walk and that of friends both within and without the CCC movement that certainly if one desires a relationship with God more than the approval of man, that we will be led in God’s direction for our lives and our relationship with Him will deepen. Regardless of where we are. For me, that has led me out of the CCC movement. Nonetheless, there was a time when it was good for me to be there.

God bless you, JM.

JustMe JustSaid:
“Which is why for so many young people they go where there is other young people, because they are weak and they need to have the people around them to keep them “safe” it is one thing to get them to come to church, but to get them to come to church without young people in it, that would be crazy mission, and I’m not talking young people that go to church or have known God before, i mean complete never set foot in church before young people. Even for me at school, i see the kids that i know have been in church forever have totally had amazing stuff happen in there worlds, yet they show absolute zero amount of God in the way they do life, as a young person, you are so easily influenced by the people around you, and the marketing for church events is seriously not that bad, i don’t know about Aussie, but in new zealand, the marketing for example burger king is like girls eating burgers wearing bikinis on horses… that is down right deceptive marketing, burgers do not equal skinny burgers do not come with hot girl on a horse….. ever. that is totally unhealthy. where as church advertising doesn’t say that, and at events i have been to young people get a touch of God in there worlds, and they enter into the presence of God, yeah he is always with us and will never leave nor forsake us, but sometimes you just can’t feel him. and these people have that life changing moment, so how can that really be that bad, at least some way some how they are receiving God in there worlds.”

Let me give you insight into the world of marketing. It was only in the early 1990’s that the advertising industry suddenly realized the potential of teen marketing and targeting gullible ages from 2-25. They know psychology. They know colour, shape, light and what we respond too. They know the power of sex and know how to portray something powerful, influential, enticing, new, exciting, sensational and experiential. Through marketing, they have specifically separated kids from parents. Companies are now the better parents (because they know what is better for you). Unfortunately, the church has not noticed this and it has crept into church culture, environment and church advertising. Because of it, elders and youth have trouble bridging such a gap. Some churches struggle with this. But the idea that youth are always separate from parents, married couples, middle-sged, singles and elders; the idea of segregation of age really breaks up the natural bonds between child and parent; teen and elder, etc. How does one talk to an old man? Is he left out? Are you at all encouraged at all to listen to his stories and wisdom? Churches, just like companies, take the place of parents or grandparents and re-inforce young people that young people and the church are all you need to have a healthy, stable, successful Christian life. This is not true. Friends add to your life, but they are not foundational as parents. The church similarly starts taking the parents role and demands the youth to spend time with the organisation and ‘friends’ rather then family and parents.

JustMe JustSaid:
“The lost do need to be saved though, i don’t know about other people but my friends and my family who don’t know God i don’t want them to die and not Go to heaven, i want to kick it with them for eternity. Because what really is the point of life if we keep God all to ourselves and only show the people who know about him? for real though how would you get young people in to church?”
If you really love them, you’ll spend more time with them I guess. If God has put a hunger in you to see your family saved, go for it. You’ll be in my prayers mate.

JustMe JustSaid:
“And just about the opinions thing, yeah that is totally important, and this has been cool like discussing this because you so need to be able to listen to others thoughts and all that, and respect for your thoughts too!”
I’ve written back to you. But don’t underestimate what you’ve written. The cogs in my brain are turning as I contemplate what you’ve said. Thankyou for your time.

JustMe JustSaid:
And just in the ministries working together thing, i don’t know why they don’t do that, but i know that people from other churches go and speak at events held by different churches, is that not helping with out reach?
My understanding of an idea of outreach is churches combining resources to pull off an important yet fun event for a community. To see it blessed, impacted, changed and saved. Having a few individuals from one church may represent ‘a’ church, but it’s not as, I believe, effective.

JustMe JustSaid:
I ran youth at the anglican church, but the stuff that i wanted to do was not really accepted, like the older people were not really into moving into the new stuff.. music and that, and i was not in the best place spiritually, i didn’t have my relationship with God on a level of leadership slash i didn’t really have the relationship at ll, it was just God is big he rocks, lets do fun stuff, and lets just go out and do all this other un godly fun stuff too… so i did that some how went to a primal youthchurch and it stole my heart and i wrestled with god on changing churches fo a few months, and he told me to change, and it has been the most life changing thing for me. As i have grown in God and all that. and that is what happen for the youth there, there has now been a youth pastor employed and they are starting a new group up.”

Well it’s important to know that no church owns you and your lifestyle. God does. It’s good to be in a church that keeps you accountable by word, spirit and action. Are you at PRIMAL for a season or for a good while until God calls you elsewhere?

JustMe JustSaid:
But man you are so so allowed to have your thoughts and its cool that there is this site for people to talk about stuff, and its cool that you encourage christians to think about what they are taught.
Well we’d love to hear what your church is up too locally and if there is any cool thing that you’ve learnt from your teachers or any cool revelation you receive. We love to ponder and take on board what others say. We’d love to heare about what type of community work CCCNZ do and what the people are like at your church.

JustMe JustSaid:
“For me, i do not feel that the c3 / hillsong churches are abusive, we have sermons and all that on a sunday and at youth etc and the word that is preached and all that totally inspires me to deepen my relationship with God, build on my faith, make my vision bigger, and i am able to have support from people around me, for the things that i do, i am able to recieve things from God, and that is what is important to me in a church. among other things… but i totally need to sleep right now.”
Well I’m happy that you haven’t seen or been through any of the things that some members from Signposts have gone through with various church ministries in Australia, including Hillsong and CCC (and now including Brisbane Christian Fellowship, BCF).

Have a good night. I hope to hear from you soon.

Unfortunately, we promote people to be aware of some of those people you have mentioned. A few years ago I went to Benny Hinn and was convinced he was a man of God. And now I am completely convinced he is a wolf. His doctrines, his greed and his lack of trust with the government to see if he is honest with his finances is troubling. We need to remain aware that even though that God raises wonderful men and women of God, they are still human and can fall into terrible pride and be transformed by greed. But once God has given them wonderful gifts, it says in the bible that He will not take back the gifts he has given. So there are people who do work signs and wonders in the church and take advantage of others because of them. Until he repents and shows he can be trusted, I don’t want him to return to Australia. His time in CCC at OFGS proved this man was a huckster. It was so disturbing. It would have made you want to get out of the building.

Joyce Meyer is another wonderful woman of God. In news I’ve received from friends of Hillsong, she was invited to speak a few weeks ago ended up rebuking the church for being a club and not getting out and being in the community. Some nice advice. However a years ago at a Hillsong conference she apologised to everyone for teaching out of ignorance things she did not know. She had received a revelation on what it means to be a mother in the faith and she apologised for a number of the things she taught. It was incredibly beautiful. But you have to wonder, and I’m sure she wonders too, how much damage was undone.

Bentley, Bevere, Cho, Comfort, Copeland, Creflo, Houston, Jacobs, Munsey, Osteen, Warren… And other pastors, leaders and prophets in general, we become skeptic about. We all debate, discuss and argue and see many different sides (and sometimes miss seeing the other persons side completely). We either leave them alone because they’re alright until another article comes up or labels them as being unsafe and hopefully promote unsafe ministries so that people may not be abused by them. I’d consider CCC OFGS quite an unsafe ministry. Some would go further and label Phil Pringle as a wolf. I’m on the fence with this at the moment.

What I do know is that other various CCC ministries have very little to do with CCCOF and just get along in their suburbs and communities with much success. But the train of doctrine, how one must think, behave and get on in a church environment is still there. Probably in your church. A few doctrines that are not biblical are doctrines such as the Prosperity Doctrine, Submission Doctrine, Word of Faith Doctrine, Covering Doctrine and Tithe Doctrine. One really deceptive one that appears harmless but is probably one of the worst is what I call Magazine Preaching- Ten Ways To Become A Better Person. This is something that is really common but leaves each member hungry for more next week but never gets them closer to God because they are so focused on works. The talk would generally teach you how to become a better person, an influential person, a powerful person, a perfect person, fulfilled person, happy person and a person of EXCELLENCE. It’s works and condemnation. And it has devastated quite a few I know from CCCOF.

I may be wrong, but I found you kind of echoed this kind of preaching here:

“So you really do have to be called to do it, and you don’t have to be a huge pro preacher or whatever to impact people because it is the way us as christian people live ur daily lives, the way we walk talk and do life that has an amazing impact, when we make that choice to leave our lives behind and follow the life of Christ, we need to let Christ who is alive in us show, as hard as it can be to let go of stuff that hacks us off, of stuff that makes us get fired up, we have to show love and kindness from the deepest places of our heart… because when we rise above, an know that we are living for something bigger, that is when people go what the heck, that person is nice to everyone, that person is not fake, they actually mean it when they’re nice. They have problems happening but yet they are ok, they have have hope in something… maybe i need that too…”

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a nice attribute to have, but it’s impossible unless you spend quality time with God in prayer and scripture, also being open to His Spirit. There will come a time when you are at CCC you will see them wanting you to support them, their movement, their vision and want you to be one of the thousands that fill their stadiums; but at the same time they are still wanting to prepare you to ‘get out there’, because you’r not good enough yet. But maybe next Sunday. They will possibly encourage you to come to SOM so that they can refine your thinking and show you how the game is played. But as I said earlier, maybe CCCOF doesn’t have tight reigns where you are. I’m surprised the mother lets her children run around so freely. That’s good for you.

JustMe JustSaid:
“Because as much as we don’t want to have a superficial Jesus thing happening, the world is totally watching christian people and for us to actually come together and not cut down the people who are chosen to lead, but be the change we want to be in the world… as cheesy as that is… because by having grumps and what not about stuff aren’t we kinda stooping to some form of worldly level? like we aren’t above above people but we should be cranking the positive rather than just adding to the negative that is dished out by this world?”

Actually. The world is not watching you and me. They are watching those that parade on the TV screens and then have an opinion on who believes these ‘big guys’. You don’t think those pastors in business suits who parade like peacocks with their ‘influence’ have had effect on how people portray Christianity? Through these guys they have already labeled you and me as being stupid, gullible and as though we have no idea what we are talking about. I think some pastors have made the church look so worldly that they make us look like an embarrassment to the rest of the world. You have to fight their conditioned stereotyped view of Christianity. For us to fight back and to have an opinion could mean we’re worldly. Or it could mean we are trying to discover and fight for what are true spiritual freedoms really are.

BTW. It sounds your CCC in New Zealand sounds nowhere near as sick as the mother one does in OF (Oxford Falls). The superficial Jesus is pretty strong and ripe at the moment, especially with their Presence Conference this year, the way they handled World Youth Day here and the way they bagged them out and discouraged people from going. They were sponsors of the event yet slagged them out pretty badly.
For a church that is meant to be changing the world, they encourage their ministry students to stick to their movements and offer very little help to local churches in Sydney and other places of the world. I have heard a few reports of this happening.

I have also heard shocking reports of them mimicking other ministries or offering services to the sick that other ministries have been dealing with and then supplied transport and more expensive services to get them to come to their church. Those churches were very unhappy. Someone in CCCOF made those choices to sheep steal. CCCOF offers NO support to local ministries. I have not heard of one instance. I have met some SOM students who, for some reason (and I believe have been taught), believe that any other ministry that is not CCC is a failure. This is because they have not embraced strong leadership and struggle with their faith in where God wants to take them.

JustMe JustSaid:
“because by having grumps and what not about stuff aren’t we kinda stooping to some form of worldly level? like we aren’t above above people but we should be cranking the positive rather than just adding to the negative that is dished out by this world?”

Would you consider Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah, Hosea, John, Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, Luther, Theresa and Mandela being worldly for fighting against authority and taking a stand on issues they believed in. I hope you continue to explore what is on a ‘wordly level’ and what isn’t. It’s like every family has a grumpy gramps. And the human body will always have some unatractive detail to them. Consider Signposts02 as being the ‘unnoticeable eye’. While CCC and other glamour organisations do their job as the body of Christ, it might be good once in while for them to listen to the eye in their pants to see if their teachings are being digested well. Not all functions in the body of Christ are fun or pretty in the slightest. But all have a function and bring glory to God. I have trouble with those who have gifts of excorcism and leadership. Leadership have problems with prophets. Prophets have problems with leadership and ‘pastors’. ‘Pastors’ have problems with ‘teachers’. But as long as each member of the body listens and respects what the other parts of the body, the body will remain in good health. Their are some churches that refuse to function and listen to the wider body. Yours might be and sound and completely healthy.

You say that we do not build his church? did Jesus not say to peter “on this rock i will build my church” peter was a disciple of christ, we are also called to be disciples and make disciple of all nations… so therefore we ar called to build the chrch through the body of christ…

Yeah God is More than just an experience or a drug as you say, he is the creator of the heavens and the earth, and we live with faith in him, faith by being sure of what we hope for and certian of what we can not see, and i am not going to crank the being a christian is so glorious and so easy thing, because it is not, it is without a doubt the hardest thing to follow God, get up pray and read the bible everyday, and build on the relationship i have, sometimes stuff goes wrong, things don’t happen the way you want them to, but that is why you have people around you that keep you encouraged, which is why for so many young people they go where there is other young people, because they are weak and they need to have the people around them to keep them “safe” it is one thing to get them to come to church, but to get them to come to church without young people in it, that would be crazy mission, and im not talking young people that go to church or have known God before, i mean complete never set foot in church before young people. Even for me at school, i see the kids that i know have been in church forever have totally had amzing stuff happen in there worlds, yet they show absolute zero amount of God in the way they do life, as a young person, you are so easily influenced by the people around you, and the marketing for church events is seriously not that bad, i don’t know about aussie, but in new zealand, the marketing for example burger king is like girls eating burgers wearing bikinis on horses… that is down right deceptive marketing, burgers do not equal skinny burgers do not come with hot girl on a horse….. ever. that is totally unhealthy. where as church advertising doesn’t say that, and at events i have been to young people get a touch of God in there worlds, and they enter into the presece of God, yeah he is always with us and will never leave nor forsake us, but sometimes you just can’t feel him. and these people have that life changing moment, so how can that really be that bad, atleast some way some how they are recieving God in there worlds.

The lost do need to be saved though, i don’t know about other people but my friends and my family who don’t know God i don’t want them to die and not Go to heaven, i want to kick it with them for eternity. Because what really is the point of life if we keep God all to ourselves and only show the people who know about him? for real though how would you get young people in to church??

And just about the opinions thing, yeah that is totally important, and this has been cool like discussing this because you so need to be able to listen to others thoughts and all that, and respect for your thoughts too!

And just in the ministries working together thing, i don’t know why they don’t do that, but i know that people from other churches go and speak at events held by different churches, is that not helping with out reach? I ran youth at the anglican church, but the stuff that i wanted to do was not really accepted, like the older people were not really into mving into the new stuff.. music and that, and i was not in the best place spiritually, i didn’t have my relationship with God on a level of leadership slash i didn’t really have the relationship at ll, it was just God is big he rocks, lets do fun stuff, and lets just go out and do all this other un godly fun stuff too… so i did that some how went to a primal youthchurch and it stole my heart and i wrestled with god on changing churches fo a few months, and he told me to change, and it has been the most life changing thing for me. As i have grown in God and all that. and that is what happen for the youth there, there has now been a youth pastor employed and they are starting a new group up.

But man you are so so allowed to have your thoughts and its cool that there is this site for people to talk about stuff, and its cool that you encourage christians to think about what they are taught.

For me, i do not feel that the c3 / hillsong churches are abusive, we have sermons and all that on a sunday and at youth etc and the word that is preached and all that totally inspires me to deepen my relationship with God, build on my faith, make my vision bigger, and i am able to have support from people around me, for the things that i do, i am able to recieve things from God, and that is what is important to me in a church. among other things… but i totally need to sleep right now.

Thanks for the thinking, and no hard feelings either.