Both a news issue and a church issue…
This is quite shocking to me – but maybe not to others here. An article in the Washington Post said that 54% of church goers in the US would always or sometimes support using torture on terrorists, and the biggest group making up that percentage are white, evangelical Protestants.
Here is the article, Why the Faithful approve of Torture by Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite.
The author of the article puts it down to the “penal theory of atonement” which is part of evangelicalism, where Jesus was tortured to death for our sins. She see the approval of torture of terrorists by a large number of evangelical Christians as a symptom of the large role that pain and suffering play in the Christian faith.
Is there something wrong with the “penal theory of atonement”? (There’s a debate that could go on forever! Yet for years I was completely unaware that there was any other approach to what Jesus did for us on the Cross.) Has the author of the article just got this reason completely wrong?
I know of course many evangelical Christians who would not support torturing anyone. There are dilemmas where this will become a very difficult issue. Most of us fortunately don’t have to directly confront those situations. No doubt that is why some Christians do support torture in at least some cases.
Other Christians have thought through their approach and are prepared to suffer or die rather than offer that kind of violence themselves. These people might often be seen as left wing, and might also be involved in social justice issues in society.
Is it shocking that evangelical Christians sometimes support torture, and don’t see it as in conflict with their faith, despite Jesus offering no violence and even healing the person his disciples attacked when he was taken away for crucifixion? (Matt 26:51-52; Luke 22:49-51; John 18:10-11). Is it the Christian right going too, too far? A lot of these people would be ‘pro-lifers’ as well. It seems strange to be anti-abortion and pro-torture. Or is there some line that’s crossed for one and not the other. Many churches in the US advised their congregation on how to vote – based frequently on a candidate or parties approach to abortion. Yet the same right wing supported and allowed torture. Is there some contradiction here? Can anyone really claim that one party is more “Christian” than another?
Are there circumstances in which as Christians we should support torture?
(Note: My Pente ex-church set a pretty good example in the last Australian election, by choosing not to take a public stance on voting policy. Nothing here is meant to imply that our churches here are as extreme as those we hear about in the US, politically. In my experience, they are not.)
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RavingPente
May 7, 2009 at 7:39 pm
The real question is not about torture, in my honest opinion.
The real question is, how many American church-goers know anything about Jesus? How many of them are truly born-again?
60% of Americans claim to be born-again. If that were true, do you think that the culture of the united states would be as it is? Do you think that they would really be in favour of torture?
No. The social trends in the US would not be heading downhill, they would be heading uphill.
As it is, when asked, some 80% of Americans believe they are going to heaven when they die, but only 20% of Americans think that their neighbour is going to heaven!
Something is very wrong in the birthplace of the prosperity gospel heresy and latter-rain/dominionist heresy.
The sound-bite generation of church-goers who don’t read the Bible, cos that’s too much hard work. Extreme Right-wing Fundamentalists who don’t know the basic fundamentals of the faith.
Of course they support torture. The same people who believe Jesus was rich believe he sanctions conversion under duress … “to save their souls” as according to St. Augustine.
The same people who believe that personal wealth is an effective and necessary gauge of personal holiness are the people who give a 10% income tax to the local church, or televangelist (cos if they don’t they fear losing their jobs and prosperity “for not bringing the tithe to the storehouse”) to gain a blessing. They are the people who support torturing terrorists because they are the guilty ones and we are God’s people and so deserve to be safe and secure. While we are talking about it, why doesn’t God just smite the evil-doers and leave us all to live happily and free?
Religion becomes the opiate of the masses when you keep the people ignorant of the faith to which they are adherents. Jesus didn’t tell us to make converts of all nations. He told us to make disciples of all nations. Jesus doesn’t want a religion. He wants a relationship. Someone in relationship with Jesus would not support torture. Even to save their loved ones.
Here is a question. If you knew someone was going to kill your family for going to church, and the only way you could stop them was to kill the person in the act of, say, bombing your church … what would you do?
Is it alright to kill the terrorist?
Slightly differently, your country is at war with another country. Do you fight for the state?
Defending the church (your family) through lethal force.
Defending the country in a war.
Is there a real difference? I alarmed one person when I said to them that Jesus effectively said, don’t use force to defend the church. “My Kingdom is not of this world otherwise my people would fight.”
Fighting the Nazis in WW2, however, is acceptable as we were not defending the church but the state.
I think I have now introduced a shade of gray into this? … hmm.
Torture is unacceptable. That’s what I believe. So, NO to torture for any and every reason.
May 7, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Great post Bull! *applauds*
May 8, 2009 at 2:32 pm
This is a very interesting article, RP. I dont really agree with point of the article ie. that the “penal theory of atonement” lends people to support torture. The penal theory, or substitutionary doctrine emphasises the death of Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins, not the suffering or torture. Anyway it makes clear that it was the attributes of one person (sinlessness) that effects the change, rather than torture in itself.
Why do Evangelical Christians support torture? I would say it has to do with the way the Republican party has captured the attention of Evangelicals and used wedge-issues to capture their votes. Evangelical leaders have then gone along and toed the party line. A group of influential evangelical leaders even wrote to Bush before the Iraq war to say that it was a just war, basically giving him their blessing.
This may all be coming to an end now with the collapse of support for the Republican party and younger evangelicals questioning the received wisdom of the past 2 decades.
“Can anyone really claim that one party is more Christian than another” I dont think so, but a lot of people were convinced that there was only one “Christian” party in the US, and most Pentecostal support I saw here was for the Liberal party. The Greens pointed out in the last election that many of their candidates were Christian and that they also had much Christian heritage, however this was usually dismissed out of hand by the Pentes and Evangelicals. Christians have not always been overwhelmingly on the right of politics, 100 years ago they were mostly on the Progressive side and it was the atheists who were mostly on the right.
“Are there circumstances in which as Christians we should support torture?” One can always construct a scenario in which it seems ethical to support torture. As a principle though, I think it is important to condemn the use of torture, particularly in our own societies. The prohibition against torture is a cornerstone of our legal system, ie. habeus corpus is there so that people can see that someone hasnt been tortured.
Its strange that right-wing religious commentators talk about the erosion of Judeo-Christian values by infiltration from outside groups (Muslims, secular-left groups etc.), but the worst danger of value erosion may be from within those same right-wing religious communities.
May 8, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Well, the UK government has spent the last 8 years abolishing Habeus Corpus. Indeed they are now arresting senior opposition MP’s for the high crime of embarrassing senior government ministers by aquiring and leaking to the press minutes of meetings and dodgy emails.
In other words … for doing his job of holding the government to account, the government had a shadow minister arrested and his home and offices were ransacked by the police.
He was released without charge and the crown prosecution service has said there was no case to answer. Isn’t that a worrying development?
May 8, 2009 at 10:47 pm
MN – I agree with you re the author’s blaming ‘penal atonement’ – I don’t think that has caused this situation. I think that the author has a different view from penal atonement, and may be trying to use this statistic to shore up her view that the penal atonement approach has problems.
I still think that penal atonement is a concept that has some other alternative views that can be put in its stead, which is pretty interesting, but I don’t think that the penal atonement doctrine is the cause of the large percentage of evangelicals supporting torture.
May 8, 2009 at 10:49 pm
I mean Wazza – not MN. Sorry!!
May 8, 2009 at 11:23 pm
Wazza and Bull, I agree. It is very important to condemn torture. For all kinds of reasons, including as a Christian, from a scriptural perspective.
Bull, you raised some really good points. You certainly have to ask what version of Jesus the US religious right believes in if they support torture. Not the one in the NT, you would think.
I wonder if its not just that they don’t read their Bibles, but that they put such trust in the authority figures they identify with their faith. If there is a mismatch between what they are taught is justified and what they read in the Bible, they might just assume their interpretation of scripture is wrong, or else just ignore what they read.
Yes, I think its a problem that the emphasis is on making converts rather than disciples. The concept of what a disciple is has by some been twisted into a list of measurable works, rather than the unmeasurable growth in character and understanding of Jesus. They probably think they are making disciples as well as converts. Much of the plot has been lost.
Re political parties and being ‘Christian’ – those were interesting historical points about the identification of the Christian viewpoint with other parts of the political spectrum, Wazza. Also, the separation of church and state is a pretty strongly held principle by some Christian groups, which seems a complete contrast to the NAR, for example.
Very interesting about the UK and Habeus Corpus and that shadow minister. Doesn’t sound good. Maybe the change of government in the US will slow this change down, or turn it around, as there may be less allies for the current UK viewpoint. Obama has condemned torture, apparently.
May 10, 2009 at 1:41 am
It makes a lot of sense why the American church would endorse torture if ministers or representatives do such despicable acts such as the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_letter
May 11, 2009 at 10:10 pm
No-one has mentioned a key aspect in the use of torture….it doesn’t work. There’s been sufficient research to done to show that.
If it doesn’t work, then what other function might it serve?
Vengeance is mine…thus saith the Lord.
Torture also fails in that it is reliant on an ‘end justifies the means’ rationale, as did the various inquisitions, the final solution, the Committee of UnAmerican activities etc etc
Suddenly we look less like Jesus and more like all those groups we don’t like or are afraid of.
May 12, 2009 at 11:29 am
So, so true, MN.
I was thinking about that on the weekend. If we stop looking at people by their label, say ‘Christian’ or ‘Muslim”, and look at their behaviour, then some things start to look similar, if not to the same extreme, currently.
So the Christian Right believes the ends justifies the means and some of them endorse torture, and war, to defend their faith, as well as other laws to perhaps force compliance with their faith on people who don’t share it.
And the Muslim extremists also believe the ends justify the means; glorify matyrdom when killing the infidel; see it as a Holy War (quite like the Catholic church in the crusades); and often want laws to force compliance with their faith on people who don’t share it.
Yes, the Muslim extremists are currently more extreme, but you can see a similarity in thinking and attitude.
Jesus didn’t coerce, force, torture or kill. He gave us free will, guides us but doesn’t force us, and heals his enemies.
As for torture not working – good point – I read one of the US generals recently confirmed that you do not get good intelligence via torture. However, Dick Cheney is currently expressing his anger at Obama over this issue; he believes that if they don’t use that kind of force, the US will not be safe.
I guess time will tell.
But are we prepared to die rather than force, coerce or torture to prevent it?
May 15, 2009 at 9:44 am
As I’ve been reading in the NT; I’ve been keeping track of atonement verses for approx half a year or more….knowing that this doctrine is under attack…
Below is a partial list…not nearly exhaustive…..
How can one stick handle around them?
It seems to me, if we keep going, we’ll have to ask people to hand in their Bibles….because they certainly won’t
know how to come to this “hidden message”…This would place us right back in the Tyndale, Whycliffe days, where the average plowman
was not qualified to “accurately” divide the Word; according to the Catholic popes and bishops.
In other words….The Bible isn’t actually saying what it’s saying….
Some scriptures pertaining to Christ’s atonement, His blood, and our Justification Through…
Please folks, let’s not commit the ultimate act of violence and gut the power of the precious gospel…
No, I cannot support torture on people….
This perfect Plan:
-Romans 3:24-26 -Colossians 1:14 -Hebrews 9:25-28
-Romans 4:3 -Colossians 1:20 -Hebrews 10:1-6
-Romans 4:25 -Colossians 2:14 -Hebrews 10:10
-Romans 5:8-10 -1 Thessalonians5:10 -Hebrews 10:19-20
-Romans 8:3 -1 Timothy 2:6 -Hebrews 10:29
-Romans 8:34 -Titus 2:14 -Revelations 1:3
-Galatians 1:4 -Hebrews 1:3 -Revelations 5:6
-Ephesians 1:7 -Hebrews 2:17 -Revelations 5:9
-Ephesians 2:13 -Hebrews 9:12 -Revelations 5:12
-Ephesians 2:16 -Hebrews 9:22
May 16, 2009 at 12:40 am
Hey glenn! Thanks for the scriptures.
Very insightful!
May 19, 2009 at 11:44 am
In response to the survey that showed the large evangelical support for torture, a prayer has been written by Dr David Gushee, who teaches Christian Ethics at Mercer University in Atlanta.
Here is an extract that raises important questions:
“…These results have bounced around the country all week, reinforcing the opinion here that Christianity — the faith that purports to be related to loyalty to you, Jesus — leads people to support torture. It would be easy for casual news-watchers to conclude that if you want to end torture in this country, the best thing to do would be to empty out the churches. What a negation of the Great Commission (Matt. 28:16-20)! We could call it the Great De-Commissioning!
But, Jesus, can it be that the problem is that the churches are already empty? Can it be that the institution that you founded to advance your mission in the world is already empty of any understanding of what it might really mean to follow you? Is it already empty of people who take your teachings and example so seriously that they might have the capacity to resist seductive and dangerous ideas floating around our culture — like the idea that if torture “works” to “protect national security,” and thus is something that followers of Jesus Christ ought to support as good loyal Americans?”
The entire prayer can be found here:
http://friendsofjustice.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/a-christians-lament-over-the-pew-torture-poll/
June 12, 2009 at 9:20 am
sorry, just to clarify, the good cop/bad cop referred to the style of previous 2 on GS i was um, debating with
November 4, 2009 at 8:36 am
I think one needs to be mindful of being “too” timid. I don’t think we should accept evil done to us or others for example, we are too be assertive in some areas. Especially protecting the vulnerable ie(refugees). Sorry Bull but not sure about only men as leaders though, I used to until I saw some of them abuse that power in the church and in society. And looking at the Islam religion, based on the OT to an extent, I cannot agree that is a guideline for men. Its oppressive and I think Jesus was pro-women. We all have our talents and gender shouldn’t be an issue.
November 4, 2009 at 8:37 am
This was meant for “Views on men” somehow it got here, oh well, just as well maybe
)
November 5, 2009 at 8:12 am
Just back on the topic, i watched Shannon Etheridge preaching at C3 the other night and turned it off after about 10 minutes, she wrote the book “Every womans battle” Ill watch any speaker who is good, and not full of nonsense