Ahh? Baahh… Church? D-wuh? Eh?

August 31, 2010

From http://www.heretolead.com/?p=4080:

Things I Don’t Understand

My friend Chris had a killer post, listing some things that he just didn’t understand. Here’s a few of my favorites:

  1. Folks that show up to church only a few times a year but expect the pastor to drop everything to provide them with his undivided attention.
  2. People that put nothing in the offering plate but still have the stones to expect that their opinions on the church should count.
  3. Parents who ground their children from church or the youth group…the very things that could help them with their behavior, future and afterlife.
  4. People that expect the pastor to tolerate their political views…but leave the church because of his.
  5. The occasional volunteer that expects the church to throw a parade in their honor just because they finally did what the Bible commanded.
  6. People that have basked in the grace of God…but fail to give grace to anyone else.
  7. Pastors that leave one church for another…for better pay.
  8. The need for church growth plans, programs, books, conference, seminars and resource kits…when we already have the Bible
  9. Women that tolerate their husbands having multiple affairs…”for the sake of the kids”.
  10. Pastors that would rather be political pundits or civil rights leaders…instead of just preaching the life-saving message of the Word of God.
  11. People that have one spiritual standard for their pastor…and another for themselves.
  12. Folks that think the word ‘disciple’ is a noun…and not a verb.
  13. People that make comments about needing to go “deeper” in God’s Word…as if there is a Scripture in the Bible that isn’t deep.
  14. Pastors that think accountability means never asking them the tough questions or taking the hard line when it comes to their failure to follow Scripture.
  15. Men that think being the head of the household has something to do with the amount of money they are bringing in or the title they acquire at work.

Bill Palmer’s Criticism of Phil Pringle

August 31, 2010

I found this article on the archive of my computer. The quote by Phil Pringle at the end of this article is priceless. Bill Palmer writes vehemently on Phil Pringle and examines his book, ‘Keys to Financial Poverty Success’:

Keys to Financial Excellence – a commentary on Phil Pringle’s book

A SCRIPTURAL COMMENTARY & REBUTTAL TO PHIL PRINGLE’S TITHE DOCTRINE

The purpose of this paper is to disprove and expose Dr Phil Pringle’s unscriptural doctrine of tithing as found and written in his book ‘Keys to Financial Excellence’.
Paul the apostle exhorts us in the book of Titus to ‘convict those who contradict’.
Paul also makes it very clear that those who do contradict the scripture do so for personal monetary gain –

“…Clinging to the faithful Word according to the teaching, that he may be able both to encourage by sound doctrine and to convict the ones contradicting. For there are indeed many insubordinate men, empty talkers and mind-deluders, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouth you must stop, who overturn whole houses, teaching things which they ought not for the sake of ill gain…” Titus 1.9-10, Literal translation of the Holy Bible

I should say from the outset that I am not attacking Dr Pringle’s character; I am however exposing his false teaching and unscriptural doctrine. I will be quoting parts of Dr Pringle’s book and then making comment. The tithe teaching begins on Page 55 and is labelled key number 9, ‘Tithing’. It concludes on Page 91 with key number 15 labelled ‘Deliverance through the tithe’. He also makes mention of ‘tithing principles’ throughout his book and I will be referencing these some of these quotes as well.

QUOTE, PAGE 55 –
Key Nine Tithing.
“Bring all the tithes into the storehouse” Malachi 3.10

COMMENT
From the outset Dr Pringle would have you believe that tithing is a commandment from God for you today.
What he fails to acknowledge though is that Malachi was written to the physical nation of Israel living under the Law of Moses. In the preceding verse, Malachi declares that the ‘whole nation’ was under a curse.

“…For you have robbed me, even this whole nation…” K.J.V

What nation? Is it Australia? USA? England? New Zealand? No, Israel was nation under the curse.

All of the Old Testament law was written specifically to the Nation of Israel.

We are living under a new dispensation, the ‘administration of the secret’ or ‘dispensation of the spirit’ and these things that were observed by physical Israel are now type and shadow for us, spiritual Israel. They are NOT literal actual works we need to physically implement.

“…But if the ministry of death having been engraved in letters in stone was with glory, so as that the sons of Israel could not gaze into “the face of Moses” because of the glory of his face, which was to cease, how much rather the ministry of the Spirit will be in glory! For if the ministry of condemnation was glory, much rather the ministry of righteousness abounds in glory…”
2 Corinthians 3.7-9, Literal Translation of the Holy Bible

“…And to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God…that now may be made known…”
Ephesians 3.9-10, Concordant Literal Version

“…In that he says “A new covenant” he has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away…” Hebrews 8.13, K.J.V

“…For the Law had a shadow of the coming good things, not the image itself of those things…”
Hebrews 10.1, Literal Translation of the Holy Bible

Dr Pringle also neglects to inform the reader that the Law was a total package deal; it was never a compilation of commands that you chose from at will. The tithe was certainly included as part of the Law but guess what?
So was circumcision (Joshua 5.2), abstaining from unclean meats (Leviticus 11.4-8), wearing tassels on your cloak (Deuteronomy 22.12), not working on the Sabbath (Exodus 16.29) and a whole host of other stringent requirements.

Funny don’t you think how Dr Pringle is quick to point out the tithe law but neglects all the other equally important aspects of the Mosaic covenant? Yes, I think so too!

The simple fact of the matter is that if you insist on keeping one part of the law, you then become a debtor to do the entire law of Moses:

“…For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace…” Galatians 5:3 K.J.V

Paul uses the “circumcision” aspect of the law here because that was the issue that Pharisee converts of his day insisted upon. Indeed, the basic starting point of the physical law was circumcision but the message is clear – if you want to keep the law, you need to keep the entire law, not just the parts that have an appeal to your own demographic sensibilities. Furthermore, money was NEVER a tithe-able commodity.
Fisherman didn’t tithe fish, merchants were unable to tithe on their stock, candlestick makers couldn’t tithe candles, jewellers couldn’t tithe precious stones or gems and a seamstress or tailor didn’t tithe on their stores and stocks of clothing. The only time God asked the Israelites for gold and silver was in the construction of his dwelling place while they were in the wilderness. Did he demand it of them? No, absolutely not! Everyone who had a willing heart could freely give it if they chose –

“…And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the sons of Israel, and let them take an offering for Me. From every man whose heart impels him, let them take My offering. And this is the offering which you shall take from them: gold, and silver, and bronze; and blue, and purple, and crimson, and fine linen, and goats hair; and rams’ skin dyed red, and dugong skins, and acacia wood; oil for the light, spices for the oil of anointing, and for the incense of perfumes; onyx stones, and stones for setting, for the ephod, and for the breast pocket. And let them make a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell in their midst…”
Exodus 25.1-8, Literal translation of the Holy Bible

QUOTE, PAGE 57 –
This point of revival cannot be ignored. When people come back to the Lord, repent at the altar, renew their commitment to follow Christ and start being part of the church again, one of the most important areas to revive is bringing tithes into the church.

COMMENT
Dr Pringle is making a blatant unscriptural statement here.
He implies that tithing is an essential ingredient to your walk with Christ.
How is it then that nowhere in the records of the early church do we find any of the apostles teaching or advocating tithing? If it were ‘one of the most important areas’ as Dr Pringle states, why is it that we find no evidence whatsoever that tithing was even taught?

In Hebrews 6.1 we are told clearly what the foundational principles for new believers are –

“…For this reason, having left the subject of the beginning [principles] of Christ, let us continue being moved to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead [fig., utterly useless] works and of faith toward God, of [the] teaching [or, doctrine] of baptisms [or, immersions] and of [the] laying on of hands and of [the] resurrection of the dead and of eternal judgment…” Analytical Literal Translation

So in this scripture we learn what the basics of following Christ are. We have six fundamentals –

1. Repentance from dead works
2. Faith towards God
3. Teaching of baptisms
4. The laying on of hands
5. Resurrection of the dead
6. Eternal (Eonian) judgment

But hang on, where is tithing? Didn’t Dr Pringle say it was ‘one of the most important’? If it’s so important it must be here. Why isn’t it then? Because it was NEVER taught, advocated or endorsed by the New Testament church.
In all of his epistles Paul NEVER mentions tithing.
If, as Dr Pringle implies, the tithe were ‘one of the most important areas’ then surely Paul would have commended or criticised the churches he oversaw in regards to it?

QUOTE, PAGE 57 –
Some people argue against tithing and giving offerings to God. Some have religious reasons.

COMMENT
Dr Pringle is confusing the issue at hand with this statement.
He is putting tithing in the same category as giving offerings. We are all called to give when and where we are able to, without a doubt. I am in no objection to people giving monetary funds to a church or any other non-profit organisation for that matter. An offering is just that, something freely given without restriction. A tithe is ten percent – a specified and stated amount. Pringle then makes a statement designed to prejudice the reader saying ‘some have religious reasons’. In other words, if you question his line of thought you are being religious and dogmatic. No Dr Pringle – you are just a man! God’s word is the foundational aspect we should be leaning on and looking to for truth, not your say so and opinion.

QUOTE, PAGE 57-58 –
They say tithing is an Old Testament practice that Jesus released us from when he released us from living under the law. This is wrong. Jesus himself taught us to tithe.

Matthew 23.23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint, anise and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done without leaving the others undone”. He is clearly declaring that the scribes and Pharisees should have been looking after justice, mercy and faith as well as tithing.

COMMENT
Dr Pringle here is basing his justification for tithing on a single scripture in Matthew that has Christ talking to Pharisees of all people. This is just so terribly sad! What Dr Pringle fails to see is that Christ pronounces ‘Woe’ upon the Pharisees. No not abundance from heaven and blessings forevermore but ‘woe’. And let us not forget whom exactly Christ was speaking to -

Was Christ speaking to his disciples when he said ‘These you ought to have done?’ NO. Was Christ speaking to the multitudes who sat at his feet to be healed and set free when he said ‘These you ought to have done’? NO. And Pringle honestly thinks that this applies to believers in Christ – that is unbelievable!

Don’t forget that the Pharisees were the church of the day.
They were religious bigots and Jesus likened them to ‘vipers’ and ‘whitewashed walls’ of all things. Jesus was never impressed by the fact that they tithed!
In chapter 23 of Matthew (the same chapter) Jesus makes the following comments to these same Pharisees –

“…Now woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are locking the kingdom of the heavens in front of men. For you are not entering, neither are you letting those entering to enter. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are going about the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming one, you are making him more than double a son of Gehenna than you are. Woe to you, blind guides! Who are saying, whoever should be swearing by the temple, it is nothing; yet whoever should be swearing by the gold of the temple is owing. Blind guides! Straining out a gnat, yet swallowing a camel! Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are cleansing the outside of the cup and the plate, yet inside they are brimming with rapacity and incontinence…”
Matthew 23.13-17, 24, Concordant Literal Version

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not see Christ pronouncing blessings and abundance upon the tithe-paying Pharisees! Maybe I’m missing something?
The facts are that the Pharisees were under the laws and customs of Moses and as such were bound to obey all of the commandments and requirements contained in that law. They like Dr Pringle thought they could gain righteousness through works of self and the blessing of God through tithing. Did they get it? No, certainly not! In fact they were so blinded by their self-righteousness they even went so far as to crucify Christ.

Jesus being a carpenter would not have been obligated to tithe anyway; He was however obligated by the Law of Moses to pay an annual temple tax (Exodus 30.13-16, 38.26)

He would have paid that wouldn’t he? Jesus would have paid the temple tax surely? No – He did not! (Well he did eventually but read on…)

Christ didn’t keep the Sabbath because he was ‘Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12.8) and likewise and in the same manner he had no intention of paying the annual temple tax because he is ‘Lord of the temple’

“…When they arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the half shekel (the temple tax) went up to Peter and said, Does not your teacher pay the half shekel? He answered, Yes. And when he came home, Jesus spoke to him (about it) first, saying, What do you think Simon? From whom do earthly rulers collect duties or tribute – from their own sons or from others not of their own family? And when Peter said, From other people not of their own family, Jesus said to him, Then the sons are exempt. However in order not to give offence and cause them to stumble go down to the sea and throw in a hook. Take the first fish that comes up, and when you open it’s mouth you will find there a shekel. Take it and give it to them to pay the temple tax for me and for yourself…” Matthew 17.24-27, Amplified Version

What an amazing little piece of scripture!
Dr Pringle though tells us that ‘Jesus himself taught us to tithe’. How exactly Pringle figures that is beyond me!

Simon was forced to lie because he knew Christ had no intention of paying the temple tax. Jesus told Simon clearly that Kings and Sons of the King are exempt from these things. And yet, Dr Pringle says ‘Jesus himself taught us to tithe’. Once again Dr Pringle’s foolish unscriptural arguments amount to nothing in the light of God’s word.

QUOTE, PAGE 58 –
Anyway, tithing did not originate with the Old Testament.
It is not something that came into being under the Law of Moses. Abraham tithed (Gen 14.20).
He lived at least 400 years before the law was introduced.
Jacob tithed (Genesis 28.22). He also lived hundreds of years before the instigation of the law.

COMMENT
Dr Pringle misses it once again with this statement.
He obviously cannot see past his idol of finance to the truths of scripture. Abraham DID NOT tithe – he gave a ‘one off’ offering of ten percent. He then gave the other ninety percent back to the King of Sodom.

You will note that Dr Pringle has failed to include the scriptural quote: why is that?
Because he knows that his argument for Abraham establishing a tithe principle is flawed.
Let’s examine the Genesis 14 account of Abraham ‘tithing’ –

“…And blessed, praised and glorified be God most high, who has given your foes into your hand! And (Abram) gave him a tenth (of all he had taken). And the king of Sodom said to Abram, Give me the persons but keep the goods for yourself. But Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand and sworn to the Lord, God most high, the possessor and maker of Heaven and Earth, that I would not take a thread or shoelace of anything that is yours, lest you should say, I have made Abram rich…”
Genesis 14.20 Amplified Version

The scripture is in relation to Abraham defeating Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him. As a consequence of the victory, Abraham takes possession of the bounty and also his nephew Lot who had been captured.
It is here that Abraham is mentioned as giving a tenth or tithe of the spoils of war to Melchizedek the high priest of Salem. He then gives the other 90 percent of the booty to the King of Sodom. So what does Abraham decide to keep? Well… Nothing!

He was already an extremely wealthy man. With over 300 servants alone (Genesis 14.14) you can imagine how much else he must have had in proportion to his servants.

Looking at the scripture closely, all that really transpired was that Abraham gave Melchizedek an offering from the SPOILS OF WAR.
Is your paycheck each week from the ‘spoils of war’? Perhaps if you decided to fund your own guerrilla war in a 3rd world country somewhere you could then give 10% of the funds you receive to the church? That would be an equivalent scenario!

Abraham gave a ‘one-off’ offering and NOT anything from his personal possessions and certainly not in accordance with the Mosaic tithe Law at all. To argue that he somehow set a precedent in relation to tithing is foolish.
If you take that line of thought then you’d better be prepared to give away the other 90% of your income too!

There is never any instance before or after this where Abraham gave a tenth of anything again.
If he had in fact ‘set a precedent’ and God was adamant that Abraham give us an example of how to live out our faith, do you really think God could not have arranged another scenario to drop a hint or 2 our way? If as Dr Pringle teaches, that he had ‘set a precedent’ then surely Abraham would have continued to ‘tithe’ after this occasion?

So now onto Jacob. Dr Pringle says clearly that ‘Jacob tithed’.
Well, did he? No he did not – Dr Pringle is again twisting scripture to suit his agenda.
Pringle again fails to quote the actual scripture in relation to Jacob; probably in the hope readers will gloss over the reference but won’t bother to check it for themselves. Let us examine the scripture in question –

“…Then Jacob made a vow, saying, If God will be with me and will keep me in this way that I go and will give me food to eat and clothing to wear, so that I may come again to my father’s house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God; and this stone which I have set up as a pillar (monument) shall be God’s house (a sacred place to me), and of all (the increase of possessions) that You give me I will give the tenth to You…”
Genesis 28.20-22, Amplified Version

Jacob had been sent by his father Isaac to Padan-aram to find a wife for himself from his Uncle’s family.
On the journey, he stops to rest for the night and has an amazing encounter with God. God promises to watch over him and to bless his offspring. Jacob wakes from the dream declaring that the place was none other than the house of God and the gateway to heaven! (Genesis 28.17)
It is then that Jacob makes this vow to God; well, in actual fact it’s really just a bargain.
He declares that IF God will look after him and bless him he’ll give a tenth of his increase back to God (Genesis 28.20) It was a conditional arrangement and it was dependant on a few things happening –

God had to be with him.
God had to keep him in the way that he went.
God had to give him bread to eat and clothes to put on.
He had to come again to his father’s house IN PEACE; don’t forget that he’d left on VERY bad terms with Esau!

Jacob vowed that only AFTER all these things had happened that ‘then shall the Lord be my God’.
Once that happened, he would then institute a tithe or tenth on his goods.

We know he worked for Laban (his Uncle) for at least 14 years! By then he had still NOT returned to his father in peace. In a nutshell all Jacob really said was ‘You bless me first God and I’ll bless you back later’.
Oh and by the way, there is NEVER any indication that Jacob actually stuck to his deal with God, we are not told either way if he actually followed through with it.
If you want to follow in Jacob’s footsteps, make a list of everything you can think of and then tell God that after he gets all the goodies your way you’ll start tithing because that’s all that Jacob did. And yet Dr Pringle says ‘Jacob tithed’.
This is an outright lie designed to support and endorse his false teaching and is in no way maintained by scripture!

QUOTE, PAGE 58 –
Recently I heard someone attempting to argue that even though tithing was introduced before Abraham, so was circumcision, and that therefore, because circumcision finished with the beginning of the New Testament, so too did tithing. This is not sound thinking or clear logic at all.
First, the bible never states that tithing is done away with under the New Testament, but clearly states that circumcision is. If tithing were to be done away with as with circumcision there would be no question. It would be just as clearly stated.

COMMENT
With this statement Dr Pringle shows just how off the mark he is when it comes to understanding scripture and the truths of Gods word. He also contradicts scripture on a number of points.
Firstly circumcision is NOT done away with but instead of being a physical act by eliminating the foreskin of the penis, circumcision is now ‘of the heart’. It is not done away with at all –

“…So circumcise the foreskin of your (minds and) hearts; be no longer stubborn and hardened…” Deuteronomy 10.16, Amplified Version

“…For he is not a real Jew who is only one outwardly and publicly, nor is (true) circumcision something external and physical. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and (true) circumcision is of the heart, a spiritual and not a literal (matter). His praise is not from men but from God…”
Romans 2.28-29, Amplified Version

Again, the idea is that the spiritual replaces the physical. The physical was only ever a mere shadow type of the spiritual anyway. This is what physical Israel and Dr Pringle misunderstand.

Dr Pringle then goes on to say that because tithing is not specifically mentioned as being done away with then we obviously have an obligation to continue it. What a thick-headed dull-minded thing to say!
In Proverbs we are admonished to answer a fool according to his folly (Proverbs 26.5) and that is what I shall now do with Dr Pringle. Ok Phil, so tithing is never SPECIFICALLY stated as being done way with.

But hang on just a second, why don’t I see you getting about with fringes and tassels on the corner of your clothing?

“…And the Lord said to Moses, Speak to the Israelites and bid them make fringes or tassels on the corners in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and put upon the fringe of the borders or upon the tassel of each corner a cord of blue…That you may remember and do all my commandments and be holy to your God…”
Numbers 15.37-38, 40, Amplified Version

We are not told SPECIFICALLY that this particular law is done away with are we? Since you’re so keen to take this line of thought then I suggest you crack out that sewing kit and tassel yourself up Dr Pringle – oh and don’t forget the blue thread! Oh and another thing Dr Pringle, where’s your beard? Yeah and what’s with that close haircut of yours?

“…You shall not round the corners of the hair of your heads nor trim the corners of your beard…” Leviticus 19.27, Amplified Version

But since there’s no New Testament scripture SPECIFICALLY stating this has been done away with then shouldn’t you be adhering to it? I mean that is your reasoning for tithing is it not?
Hopefully you can see how profoundly dumb Dr Pringle’s reasoning and his arguments are for tithing.
Just because something is not specifically stated as being done away with does not mean we need to still adhere to it.

This was a hard fact for even the apostles of Christ to come to terms with. In Acts we read of Peter’s struggle to differentiate between his adherence to Mosaic Law and his newfound freedom in Christ –

“…Now, on the morrow, as they are journeying and drawing near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray about the sixth hour of the day. Now he became ravenous and wanted to taste food. Now, while they are preparing it, an ecstasy came on him, and he is beholding heaven open and a certain utensil descending, as a large sheet, with four edges, being let down on the earth, in which belonged all the quadrupeds and reptiles of the earth and the flying creatures of heaven. And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter! Sacrifice and eat!” Yet Peter said, “Far be it from me, Lord, for I never ate anything contaminating and unclean!” And again, a second time, a voice came to him, “What God cleanses, do not you count contaminating! Now this occurred thrice, and straightway the utensil was taken up into heaven…”
Acts 10.9-16, Concordant Literal Version

Peter was in fact struggling to accept the fact that Gentile converts were actually being redeemed and were now a part of the Kingdom of God. It would be fair to say that He had a hard time even associating with them! Being Jewish Peter would have been raised to be highly un-accepting of non-Jewish peoples or Gentiles; they were actually referred to as ‘Dogs’ as a reference to how beneath them they viewed them to be. God had to get Peter to see the truth of this fact.
To do so God showed Peter a vision with all sorts of unclean animals (unclean as defined by the Mosaic Law) and commanded him to eat them! What it comes down to is that either Christ abolished some of the Law or he abolished all of it. Which one was it?

“…By abolishing in his (own crucified) flesh the enmity (caused by) the law with its decrees and ordinances…” Ephesians 2.15, Amplified Version

“…Christ purchased our freedom (redeeming us) from the curse (doom) of the Law (and it’s condemnation) by (himself) becoming a curse for us…” Galatians 3.13, Amplified Version

People like Dr Pringle just cannot see that the Law pointed to Christ himself. Christ was the fulfilment of the Law; he himself was never obligated to live out the exacting specifications of it and neither are we. If Christ was obligated to live out all of the Law then why did he constantly flout the Sabbath and dismiss the temple tax? Because Christ is Lord of the Law! The Pharisees and Dr Pringle seem to prefer the shadow itself rather than the body that casts the shadow –

“…Let no one, then, be judging you in food or in drink or in the particulars of a festival, or of a new moon, or of Sabbath’s, which are a shadow of those things which are impending – yet the body is the Christ’s…” Colossians 2.16-17, Concordant Literal Version

Paul could have gone on and stated every single facet of the Mosaic Law in the above scripture but the meaning is clear to those with ‘eyes to see and ears to hear’. The Law was simply a shadow; the body casting that shadow is Christ! Dr Pringle – give this idol of your heart up. You cannot support any of your arguments scripturally; 2 pages into your tithe article and already I’ve blown your reasoning and petty doctrine sky high.

Dr Pringle then goes to further confuse his readers by saying that physical baptism is necessary to be saved (I have not included the quote as it is not directly related to the tithe doctrine)
I won’t go into this whole topic now but again his Pharasitical mindset cannot comprehend that physical actions are shadows of spiritual realities. What about the thief on the cross with Christ? Was he baptised? No. Will he be saved? Yes. Read the scripture yourself in Luke 23.43

QUOTE, PAGE 59 –
The real problem is not theological, although we can certainly gloss up a miserly attitude with some scripture and high-sounding theology.
People who have a problem with tithing generally have a problem with giving.
Often they go looking for a scripture they can bend into a shape that sanctifies their position.

COMMENT
Here again Dr Pringle uses sub-text and sly remarks to prejudice his reader into thinking that tithing and giving are one and the same. They are absolutely not the same.
Giving is just that – giving. It is free from restraint and bounds. Tithing is a regulated specific amount that dictates what one must do and give. Pringle also insinuates that those who are ‘anti-tithing’ have a miserly attitude!
Again we see that the man has no sound scriptural reasoning and must resort to cheap tricks to emotionally manipulate his readers. He also states that the problem is ‘not theological’ What the? I think I’ve disproved that easily enough! Dr Pringle’s problem is that he CANNOT back up his false doctrine with any pertinent scripture or sound reasoning. Again he uses off handed comments to suggest that people who disagree with his false teaching are then forced to ‘sneak about’ within the bible to justify their reasoning. No quite the opposite in fact; Dr Pringle is the one who is botching and bending scripture into shape to suit his own ends.

QUOTE, PAGE 59 –
It is hard to understand that people who claim they love God resist the call to bring the tithe, which is His, into His house to give to Him.

COMMENT
Dr Pringle is way off base here if he thinks God is dwelling in some man made building of bricks and mortar. Again he shows just how immature his spiritual understanding really is.
Where is the House or Temple of God situated? Does God actually dwell in a debt free multi-million dollar suite of church buildings at Oxford Falls?

“…Are you not aware that you are a temple of God and the spirit of God is making its home in you? If anyone is corrupting the temple of God, God will be corrupting him, for the temple of God is holy, which you are…”
1 Corinthians 3.16-17, Concordant Literal Version

“…Or are you not aware that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, which you have from God, and you are not your own?”1 Corinthians 6.19, Concordant Literal Version

So tell me Dr Pringle just how do we ‘bring the tithe, which is His, into his house’ if as we just read the house of God is within us? Can you answer me that one? No – you can’t! Dr Pringle just cannot get past his idol of finance to the great and wonderful spiritual truths of God’s word. He’d have you believe that his multi million dollar complex at Oxford Falls is in fact the ‘House of God’. Nothing could be further from the truth.

QUOTE, PAGE 59-60 –
People who fight tithing must imagine that they are being robbed by giving it to God.
Yet God says it is actually him who is being robbed. God does not cheat us by asking us to give to him. We do not lose through giving to God. Rather we cheat ourselves out of blessing when we do not give to the Lord. God is a good God. He is not going to ask you to do something that short-changes your life. You will be enriched through your obedience to God, not impoverished.

COMMENT –
And again Dr Pringle confuses the reader by tagging giving in with tithing. They are not the same! It would appear that even he is confused on this issue. I agree with his statement that we do not lose when we give to God. This is correct and scriptural. However the context of Dr Pringle’s statement carries an implication that God requires your monetary funds. Is this true? Can this be supported with scripture? Can we actually purchase the blessing of God with finance? Let us examine a scripture in Acts of someone who attempted to do just that –

“…And the apostles in Jerusalem hearing that Samaria had received the Word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who going down prayed concerning them so that they may receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen on any one of them, but they were only being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. But Simon having seen that the Holy Spirit is given through the laying on of the hands of the apostles, he offered them money, saying, Give to me also this authority that to whomever I may lay on the hands he may receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said to him, May your silver be with you into perdition, because you thought to get the gift of God through money. There is neither part nor lot to you in this matter, for your heart is not upright before the face of God. Repent, then, from this wickedness of yours, and petition God if perhaps you will be forgiven the thought of your heart…”
Acts 8.14-22, Literal Translation of the Holy Bible

So what happened here?
Simon thought he could gain the Holy Spirit and the blessings thereof through giving money to the apostles.
Like Dr Pringle he was convinced that God’s abundance and blessings would fall upon him because he was prepared to part with his financial resources.
What was Peter’s response? He rebukes this man and declares that his heart is not upright before the face of God.
We can NEVER buy anything from God – his blessings are not some cheap luxury you or I or anybody can purchase with a tithe. This is a ridiculous mindset but one that false teachers and deceivers will have you believing to be true.
If this were in fact the case, if you could actually buy God’s unparalleled blessing then why are there so many meagre Christians who tithe? I mean c’mon, think about it – If you could just tithe and have all your wildest financial dreams come to pass then EVERYONE would be doing it wouldn’t they? Of course they would! Phil Pringle’s candy-coated tithe message is very deceptive and you can very easily fall for it, I certainly did for many years.

Paul tells the Corinthian Church that many such false teachers are corrupting the word of God. How can we corrupt the word of God? Let us examine the scripture –

“…For we are not as many which corrupt the word of God…”
2 Corinthians 2.17, K.J.V

The word translated ‘Corrupt’ here is a Greek word Kapeleuo and means to retail, merchandise and make money by selling. So that’s right – we can corrupt the word of God by selling the things of God and the revelations he gives us. We are told throughout scripture that we are not to engage in this! The things of God should NEVER be for sale; freely we have received and freely we should be giving. Is your book for sale Dr Pringle? Oh, yes it is!

Another scripture along this line is found in Paul’s letter to Timothy. Here Paul is speaking of men who DO NOT teach the sound and wholesome gospel of Christ -

“…Who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a source of profit (a money making business, a means of livelihood). From such withdraw…” 1 Timothy 6.5, Amplified Version

Dr Phil Pringle would have you thinking that Godliness and righteousness is a source of amazing prosperity and profit – just bring that tithe in and look out for the blessing! That is not the message of scripture though; in fact we are admonished to withdraw from such people. It is easy to be caught up in this message being preached by Dr Pringle and many other esteemed ‘ministers’ but we must always look to God and his word for our guidance and not man.
QUOTE, PAGE 61 –
The curse of not tithing

COMMENT
Oh dear… Dr Pringle has now stooped so low as to suggest that people who do not tithe are in fact under a curse!
What is sad is that he really believes this to be true, that God is some kind of glorified penny-pinching accountant keeping track of every dollar you earn and if you fail to tithe? You better look out cause there’s a curse coming your way hard and fast! Pringle is now playing on people’s fears and is convinced that failing to tithe will earn you a firm whack up the side of the head from God: this is classic cult-like fear-mongering technique!

No, as we’ve already discussed, God never asked the Israelites to tithe money; it was never a tithe-able resource! Giving? Yes! Tithing? No! Do not be deceived by cunning arguments like the tithe doctrine. The apostle Peter had a revelation of the end time church and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit penned some pertinent scripture relating to our topic at hand.

In 2 Peter 2.1-3 we read –

“…But also false prophets came to be among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive, heretical sects, and denying the Master having redeemed them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. And many will follow their flagrant sexually immoral ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in covetous desire [or greed], with fabricated words, they will exploit you, for whom their judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction will not sleep…” Analytical Literal Translation

“…Motivated by greed, they will exploit you with their counterfeit arguments…” Berkely Version

“…In their lust they will exploit you with cunning arguments…” Moffatt Translation

“…In their greed for MONEY they will trade on your credulity with sheer fabrications…” The New English Bible

QUOTE, PAGE 64 –
(Speaking of the city of Jericho) -
God had given strict instructions, however that everything in this city was to be destroyed. Nothing was to be taken by any Israelite. The entire city was ‘under the ban’. It was devoted to destruction. It was the first fruits of their land.
It was the tithe of the prosperity that was coming upon them.

COMMENT
Dr Pringle is entirely off the track here yet again. Yes, the city of Jericho was to be utterly destroyed and nothing was to be taken by any Israelite – that part is true. Yes it was a kind of first fruit offering but a tithe? A tithe by definition is a tenth. Did the Israelites only take ten cities of which Jericho was the first? Well, no they didn’t. They took far more than ten cities. We know for a fact that Israel under Joshua defeated thirty-one kings. A king naturally would rule over a city or large region of some sort wouldn’t he? If Jericho was in fact a tithe wouldn’t they have had to repeat this scenario for every lot of ten cities they took?
But Dr Pringle tells us that the city of Jericho was ‘a tithe of the prosperity that was coming upon them’. Again he is making blatant unscriptural assertions with this statement.

QUOTE, PAGE 65 –
The tithe has never belonged to us. The first tenth of our income is always God’s.
As mature people, it is unthinkable to expect blessing from God in one hand when we have stolen from him with the other.

COMMENT
I am constantly amazed at how little many of Christianity’s supposed ‘ministers’ actually know of God’s word. Even though Phil Pringle has a doctorate in theology (supposedly anyways) he still comes out with unscriptural nonsense and hoo-ha like this.

Dr Pringle tells us that the ‘first tenth of our income is always God’s’. Oh really?

“…And all the tithe of the herd or of the flock, whatever passes under the herdsman’s staff (by means of which each tenth animal as it passes through a small door is selected and marked), the tenth shall be holy to the Lord. The man shall not examine whether the animal is good or bad nor shall he exchange it…” Leviticus 27.32-33, Amplified Version

Can you see that scripture? I can – and what does it say? Did God want the first out of every ten animals? (note that the tithe according the scriptures was always livestock or produce, never money) No he did not! The tithe was on the tenth animal – NOT THE FIRST.
And God wasn’t overly concerned about whether the animal in question was a prime specimen or completely and utterly bogus. So even though Dr Pringle is advocating an unscriptural tithe doctrine he can’t even see fit to get the logistics or actuality of it correct – unbelievable!

You will note that again Dr Pringle makes use of sub-text to suggest that ‘mature’ people do not expect blessing from God when they have simultaneously robbed him. How is it then in Psalms we learn that God sustains ALL of the living?

“…The eyes of all hope to You and You give them their food in due time. You open Your hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing…” Psalms 145.15-16, Literal Translation of the Holy Bible

We are told clearly here that God satisfies the desire of EVERY living thing; this includes the unrighteous and the wicked. No – not every ‘tithing’ thing; every living thing. Christ tells us in Matthew that his Father shows no impartiality towards people, he freely sends his blessings upon us all:

“…That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust… Matthew 5.45 K.J.V

I suggest that perhaps Dr Pringle stops writing books he knows nothing about and starts to read his bible.

CLOSING THOUGHTS
Although I had planned to make comment on all thirty-something pages of Dr Pringle’s tithing message it became abundantly clear that he really is just flogging the same old Malachi scriptures and using petty unscriptural reasoning and emotional jaunts to justify his stance on this issue. If I did make comment I would simply be repeating myself over.

Dr Pringle is like pretty much every Pentecostal minister I have met or researched, he has simply missed some very basic and fundamental truths of scripture. Like the Pharisees in the day of Christ, Dr Pringle has totally missed the truth of God’s word and has settled for physical laws and rituals believing that by observing them he is calling down the blessing of Heaven upon himself. These things were only ever shadows of the reality – Jesus Christ is the reality and in him there is freedom and fullness of life.

We read in Acts chapter 15 that there were Pharisees who had converted to Christ but who still wanted to maintain observance of physical rituals and customs from the Mosaic Law. These Pharisees had caused division in the early church -

“…But some who believed (who acknowledged Jesus as their Saviour and devoted themselves to him) belonged to the sect of the Pharisees, and they rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise the Gentile converts and to charge them to obey the laws of Moses…” Acts 15.5, Amplified Version

These same Pharisees argued that Gentile converts needed to be circumcised and obey the Laws of Moses. Well, tithing is certainly a part of the Law of Moses and don’t forget that if you’re not a Jewish person then you are by default a Gentile. The argument of the Pharisees is really no different to what Dr Pringle is preaching about tithing – different topic but exactly the same mindset. The Pharisees were convinced that circumcision was absolutely necessary and in fact they had good reason; Abraham was circumcised and he predated the Law and even Jesus himself was circumcised! (Luke 2.21)

But again it comes down to the issue of whether or not Christ’s death removed some of the Law or the entirety of it. What was the response of the apostles? Peter put it very simply.

“…Now then why do you try to test God by putting a yoke on the necks of the disciples, such as neither our forefathers nor We ourselves were able to endure…” Acts 15.10, Amplified Version

Do you see what Peter is saying? The Law is a yoke about your neck – It will restrain and constrict you.
Do you see also that Peter said ‘were able to endure’? This tells us clearly that Peter no longer adhered to the strict customs of the Mosaic Law. He understood the work of Christ and the freedom that came with it.

What is both unbelievable and rather mind-boggling is that modern day ministers think they can freely pick and choose which bits of the Mosaic Law should be re-instated. The Law was a complete package deal, always was and always will be – you can’t grab this that and the other without taking the whole thing.
The Pharisees in the early church at least understood this aspect, which is more than I can say for Dr Pringle and ministers like him. The Pharisees, like Dr Pringle, were focused on physical actions and as such were and are unable to comprehend spiritual realities. What is amazing is that Dr Pringle believes he truly has the insight into this matter.
I recently downloaded a recorded service from his church’s website.
The following quote is from the 6pm service of the 12th February 06 –

“…He (speaking of the apostle John in the book of 3 John) could pray a prayer over their lives of blessing and prosperity because he knew the truth was in their soul. And when you’ve got truth inside you, you understand the truth is tithing, the truth is giving to God, the truth being acted in our lives is actually coming to God with something more than just words – it’s substance, it’s an offering. That’s what truth is in our spirit and when we want to believe a lie it’ll take us away from that, we won’t enter into that prospering hand being upon our life that God has promised all the way through scripture…”

You can see clearly here with this statement that Dr Pringle has NO understanding whatsoever in regard to tithing – he has not a clue what he is talking about; ironically, it is he believing a lie.

Despite his doctorate in theology, he has clearly NOT studied to show himself approved and as a consequence he is unskilled in the word of righteousness (2 Timothy 2.15, Hebrews 5.3)

I pray that you, the reader, have gained some insight into the truth about tithing and that you can clearly see how manipulative and deceptive this doctrine is. If after reading everything I’ve presented in this paper you still think you can justify tithing (I didn’t say giving, I said tithing) then you obviously have an idol of finance within yourself that God will need to deal with! People like Dr Pringle who endorse this teaching are robbing God’s church of truth and denigrating the word of God for profit. I strongly suggest Dr Phil Pringle take note of the criticism outlined in this paper if only for the following reason:

Jeremiah 48:10 “…Cursed be he that does the work of the LORD deceitfully…”
Commentary written by Bill Palmer 2006. This paper may be copied and dispersed freely.


Steve Warren Fleeces C3 Amsterdam; Pringle Wants Jet from C3 Atlanta!

August 27, 2010

I’m lost for words. This has been up on C3 Global for nearly 3 MONTHS! C3 ENDORSES THIS TEACHING from Steve Warren!

This is Steve Warren. Do not forget his face. We thought Dave Sumrall’s sermon to C3 students and staff was bad. This has to be one of C3′s worse sermons ever. Thank you to the anonymous person who emailed me this link. I finally finished transcribing this sermon.

Remember: Phil Pringle endorsed this man!

(Phil Pringle’s article is in the comment section below this long article. I will also be dedicating this page to quotes from some of his books.)

Watch the sermon here: http://www.c3churchglobal.com/video/work-your-miracle

“I just want to spend a few moments positioning ourselves for that breakthrough. It’s what we’re gonna do. We’re going to take up an offering in just a moment. And for some of you here this morning, this offering is going to be the moment that’s going to cause a breakthrough for you. This is our regular offering. You put your tithes and your offerings into this offering. But for some of you this will be a miracle offering. A miracle moment.

Do you know as I’ve prepared this morning, I’ve not been able to escape this fact, that nearly every example of breakthrough in scripture has been preceded by some level or some sort of sacrifice. The healing thing is different. I found an extraordinary grace two weeks ago as we were praying for healing.  It’s like – what ever you’ve done, whatever you’ve been through, God’s grace is there. He wants your body fixed up.

But when it comes to break through, very often there is something we have to do to position ourselves to receive the breakthrough. There are some things we have to do to work at breakthrough. So if you’re looking for sort of economic-type breakthrough this morning (Housing, finance or jobs – those sort of things), you may find this morning that God speaks to you about some sort of financial sacrifice that you’re going to have to make.

I’d love it if there was some other way to make this work. I would love it if we can lay hands on people and miracles would just drop into their lives. We will pray. At the end of the service we will pray for everybody and lay hands on them.

And I believe miracles will drop into our lives. But there is something we need to do to unlock that miracle. There is something we need to do to prepare ourselves. And here’s just one story I want to take you through very quickly this morning… (2:48)

[Starts reading out 2 Kings 4:1 Elisha and the Widow]

This was a bad day for that widow. She was in debt. She could see no way out but to sell her sons into slavery. Have you ever been in debt and see no way out?  That is exactly what it feels like. It’s slavery. If you’re in a job that you hate and it is not meeting the needs of every week; and feel trapped; feel like there’s no way out; if you get this constant sense of guilt and you don’t know why… Condemning conscience… You feel trapped and you don’t know why…

When you have this dream of your business succeeding… you get it started… Two years have gone by and this dream seems like an impossibility. All you can see is six long, long days of work every single week, working every hour possible. Still you’re earning less money then you did when you were working for someone. And yet you got a dream to franchise your business, have others working for you. It feels like you’re trapped between a dream of a future and the past you don’t want to go back to. Many of you may not be that right now you’re in a desperate situation, but still you’ve got a dream of a future that you want to see come to pass. Your current situation may be absolutely fine. But here this morning, God may just want to plan a  dream of something bigger for your life in the future. There is something bigger in my future that (wife’s name) and I want to see.

We’re gonna put it, something that’s sacrificial for us in the offering in just a moment. It’s not because of our lives or because there is anything wrong with our lives right now. But because we have a dream of something bigger that we want to see unlocked. We’re going to give an offering that’s going to cause us to have to walk on water. To- It’s a good place to be.

When Peter got out of the boat he didn’t know the water was going to hold him up. That was no guarantee. He stepped out on one word. Elisha had a word for this widow. He says to her later in this passage, “You will find your debt cancelled if you just do what the Lord God is saying to you right now”.

[Continues reading out 2 Kings 4:1 Elisha and the Widow]

What is your jar of oil here this morning? What is it you’ve got in your hand that’s a lease within the realm of your control that you can do to unlock something from heaven into your life?

[Keeps reading from scripture] “Then he said, “Go borrow vessels from everywhere, from all your neighbours, empty vessels. Do not gather just a few”.”

You need oil? I’m going to need bigger vessels. She had enough oil for the vessel she had. But it wasn’t enough oil to meet the needs of her life. So Elisha goes. It’s not really the oil that is the problem, it’s the vessels that are a problem. Do you know what he says? “Go borrow some. You may not have the capacity in your own mind that seems big enough to contain all that God has for you.”

If you’re sitting here this morning, go “I’ve only got enough faith to keep on going, (undecipherable). That’s why we come to church on a Sunday morning: we borrow one another’s faith. We borrow bigger vessels.

My thinking is so big that when I stand in front of you guys my vision expands. My thinking increases. My capacity grows to contain more. When you sit here week in, week out, it’s okay to absorb, to catch, to borrow the increase capacity of those around you. Or the power of the combined force of a standing shoulder to shoulder. Think bigger when you’re in this atmosphere. You’ve got the oi, but you need the vessel. What am I going to pour it into? He borrows the vessels…

And he says, “And when you have come in you shall shut the door behind you and your sons. Then pour it into all these vessels and set aside the full ones. So she went from him and shut the door behind her and her sons, who bought the vessels to her and she poured it out”.

This miracle happened in private. Not even Elisha was in the room. It says she shut the door on him and went into that room with her two sons. It doesn’t matter how much I prayed for you this week. It doesn’t matter how many times we lay our hands on you this morning. It still comes down to the steps you take – here today!

Only you can unlock the miracle in your life. Only you in your private worlds can take the steps necessary for God to create the breakthrough. If you’re having financial troubles and you’re not tithing, I can’t solve that for you. It doesn’t matter how much I pray for you, you’re not going to get your breakthrough. Only you can make that decision privately.

I need to follow the steps the bible tells me to take to live in the goodness of God. I can’t do that for you. I can lend you some faith, you can borrow one of my vessels, you can borrow somebody else’s vessel, but ultimately you’re in a room on your own having to work your miracle, and that’s the sort of church I want: big people! Big enough to work our own solutions- come into the house and we find strength with one another and catch the word of god and go, “I can make this happen. I can do something about this. I can unlock a miracle. I can make life work for me.” You can work your miracle here this morning.

You can take a step and change your life. So she goes into the room… And it says… Somewhere here… I keep losing my place. I’m just so like- I’m ready to lay hands on you all. That’s what it is…

“So she went from him and shut the door…” That’s it! “And she POURED IT OUT!” That’s what she did with the oil! She TOOK the jar, and she BEGAN TO POUR IT OUT! I was trying to miss that bit ‘cos this is the painful bit. She TOOK THE VERY THING THAT SHE NEEDED and she BEGAN TO POUR IT OUT! She though, “This won’t take very long. There’s not much in that jar”. Then she began to pour, the oil didn’t stop. She expected the jar looking for the magic somewhere, tapping the bottom. Yet it’s solid jar! Where is it coming from? It just kept pouring! She dared not stop!

She was tempted to look in the jar to try work out where this thing’s coming from. To see whether the oil was glowing or some other magic thing was happening. But she dared not stop! She’s gotta keep pouring- something going on here!

When you begin to fill your breakthrough, don’t. stop. pouring! When you feel something go off in your spirit, DON’T STOP AT THAT POINT! When you feel like your giving is starting to cause a breakthrough, DON’T STOP GIVING! When you find yourself in debt, DON’T STOP TITHING!

At that very point, God just might be bringing your breakthrough, DON’T PULL BACK! When you feel victory coming in your spirit, don’t go “OOOOOHH!!! I’m afraid what my life might BE if I’m set free.”

I have seen people trip up over success as much as I have failure. Seems like us guys are wired this way. We seem to be performance driven. And it seems like just at that moment we’re tasting success we trip ourselves up. We’re scared what that success might feel like. You tast victory! You’re tasting that moment of freedom. And you’re tempted to pull back going, “I don’t know this life! This is a new me!”

This is a brand new life. Keep warring at the moment and don’t give up! Keep pushing! Whatever you do, don’t go, “Oh! What are people going to think of me if I become this new person?”

I use to be quiet… diplomatic… I used to make sure there was peace amongst everyone I was with and life was okay. I felt constrained. I felt like wasn’t really me. But life was sort of okay. If I step out and be a new me- start being a confident new me- what are people going to think of me? You begin to pull back. Don’t pull back! KEEP POURING!

At the moment your miracle begins to happen, she moves it from one vessel. She sees it’s starting to overflow. She puts it to the next one. The next one begins to fill. That fills up- and the next one… And the next one… This thing keeps POURING! She doesn’t know what to do with herself.

She’s beginning to get pretty excited! Her sons are getting happy! They don’t know what’s going on! They’re sticking their hands in the pots feeling this oil thinking it’s some magic fluid.

She keeps pouring. She gets to the last vessel. The oil rises and she’s beginning to think ‘What am I going to do now? This can be one very messy house if this thing doesn’t stop pouring. Then just as it gets to the brim- the top, the oil stops.

God will keep on pouring for as long as your capacity is there to handle what He is pouring into your life. You can dream as big as you like this morning! That’s what I am trying to say to you. YOU CAN DREAM- as big as you like, cos God desires to prosper his children. Psalm… 37 or somewhere. He delights in the prosperity of His children. It’s what the bible says.

I want you this morning to feel like the oil of the Holy Ghost is getting on your world. But it’s going to take a step. And only you can decide what that step is.

Sacrificial offering.

Once you’ve given that, you may still need tomorrow to get on the phones of companies that you think, your sort of job might be in. Something like 60% of jobs go before they’re advertised. Last week I said 80%. But I got my facts right during the week. 67% of statistics are made up on the spot, just like that one.

It does require us to do something. You may not be able to buy that house right now. Start looking! It’s a lot of fun, visiting properties you might like to buy to keep the dream alive. Start pushing doors. Sometimes I get people coming to me going, “Steve, I’ve seen this job or I’ve been offered this job. Is it the sort of thing I should take?” I am not the best person to ask. Cos the sort of person I am, that I’ve always been is, I push on absolutely every single door I can possibly imagine. And if it opens, I am walking through. It’s way easier that way.

It’s got a bright potential future and I’m into it. You may need to start pushing doors this week. You may have started a dream of that you not just get out of debt, but you’re able to invest. Open a savings account tomorrow and put one euro in it. It may stay as one euro for the next six months whilst you try to get yourself out of debt, but you would have started to activate something in the possibility of your thinking. You would’ve begun to unlock something in your ‘possibility thinking’. You hear me this morning? Is this making sense?

Elijah meets another widow. This widow, she has a bit of flour as well as the oil. She was doing a little better than this one. Elijah comes to her and says, “Hey, can you make me a cake with that flour and that oil?”. Actually what he says is, “Can I have some water?”.

Don’t you like God the way he sort’ve eases you in gently. He firsts ask for something she knows she can give him. But then he asks her to give him the rest. The truth is it was ‘in the rest’ the miracle came. You will find that your container of flour will not run dry if you make the sacrifice of giving away what you’ve got.

Right after that, her son dies. Elijah prays for her son and her son rises from the dead. You may sow flour this morning but you may reap a resurrection. Your need may not be an economic need. You may have some other needs. But still, something in this offering may be the sort of action that will unlock something of the answer in your life.

I wish it was some other way. But I haven’t discovered it yet. Action is always attached to your breakthrough. So I want us to give some thought to this right now. There are offering cards in your seat. I would only do this on a morning like this, but if you need a- if you don’t have the money on you right now and you want to make an IOU that you know that you can fulfill, you can write that on the card too.

But I want you to believe this morning; as you step out on water, as you give the flour or the oil or you go fishing like Peter, (you walking around the walls of Jericho going, “I am right out here right now. This looks crazy”), I know you’re miracle is going to happen.

God said these words to me this week:

“Steve. If you can get people to take a step, I will get them their miracle.”

Simple sort of process. Not a complicated equation other than a cost to someone. Just step into that zone. And do you know the interesting thing about the widow with the flour, is God said to Elijah, “Go to this widow and she will provide food for you. And I have already told her so.”

We usually read that story as is Elijah was being tough on her. But actually God had already spoken to her. You will know this morning. You will get a sense in your spirit about the sort of step God wants you to take. I’m not here saying you gotta do some sort of action. But I am here to present a challenge: what are you going to do to step out of the boat? How far do you need to go til you hit that measure of peace where God has spoken to me, about what I need to do to create a breakthrough in my world?

So why don’t we just prepare our offering right now?

As soon as we’ve done that, I’m gonna just ask you to come forward. If you’ve got something very specific in mind that you want a breakthrough for here today… We’re going to pray over people.

This stuff is impartational. I may not be able to give you your miracle, but I know when I went down to Presence in Sydney this year, I was telling Pastor Phil some of the things we’ve been seeing happening. And he said, “That got on you when you were in Sydney – it’s transferable”. No one laid hands on me. I had four days (raise hands near his shoulders), in a miracle (does magic fingers) environment. And ever since then I felt like miracles have been (clicks fingers twice) easy. It’s just… There’s miracles hanging in the air at church right now, ready to happen. All we have to do is set in our hearts a decision to engage with that. Amen?

If you need to talk to your husband or wife, that would be a very good idea. If you’re married that is. If you’re not married and you want to be married, just imagine yourself talking to your husband or wife. Activate the spirit of faith. I have known people who have found their marriage partner’s as they’ve given in to some sort of offering.

But Tim Lowe was here with Pastor Phil who gave a story like that. People who have got pregnant who couldn’t get pregnant after giving an offering like this: you may be sowing flour but you may get your resurrection. Amen! Why don’t we take a hold of our offering right now.

Father I pray that you’re anointing right now would fall on our lives, fall on these offerings, incredible miracles will break out of this safe place… I pray for every decision that people have made this morning as I’ve been speaking, things they’ve decided to do to step out. God I pray your hand of the breakthrough will be on those steps of action as they apply for jobs for buying houses. Put things into order to try to get out of debt. Take steps for maybe an emotional or psychological breakthrough. God I pray your hand right now on each one of those steps. Spirit of authority, power… Spirit of God, rest on us right now, in Jesus mighty name… Amen…

Guys, let’s just stay in this atmosphere right now as – If I can ask the host to take up that offering. Let’s just stay in that atmosphere…

There is some incredible things going on as we do this.

Don’t underestimate the power of what you’re feeling in the presence of god right now.

Friday, I went online to listen to the service two weeks ago. And I tell you, I felt the presence of God – such a strong service. And sitting in my office, I felt it. There have been moments in my life, when I’ve needed a break through, I’ve gone over and over – messages like this. If you download the podcast or get the video or whatever other format this service is out there on, you can continue to get this in your spirit. Believe it every week: My miracle is coming my way.

So if you – if you got something specific you want prayer for, just gonna ask you to come forward right now. [People start getting up] I don’t care if it’s everybody. [Undecipherable] and I are going to pray right now… Any sort of break-through you need… The very least, (if you put something pretty sacrificial in that offering), I certainly want to pray for you.

[Many people now assembled at front]

Some of you today, God has got your future married partner in mind. I get a strong sense some of you are going to find such a personal victory. You were bound by something that is you just need to be free from. I know some of you… Some of you are going to get ridiculously successful… in work.

Start reading the right material to preparing your heart. Don’t ever get glamourised by money. The love of money is the root of all evil. But if you can learn to handle big money, it would be one of the greatest tools to helping build the kingdom of God. Why don’t you reach out to Him right now?

Church, why don’t you begin to pray? Pray for this people here this morning. Amen. I want everybody engaged right now. I want the power of God to fall here this morning. So everybody in this church right now begin to lift up their voices and to call on God. In Jesus name amen… [Starts laying hand on people and praying/blessing them.]

Just ah… gonna pray for you in just a moment. I’ve also got another meeting so I wanna close this one.

Before I pray for these guys here, you may be sitting here this morning. And you may have never have asked Jesus Christ into your life. In just a moment I want to give you a chance to do just that, if you have never asked Jesus into your heart. Who says that, I ask that every eye be closed right now. If you’re here this morning and you’re going, ‘Oh! I’ve never taken that step!’ I want to help you take that step right now.

So if that’s you, can you raise your hand? [Hands raise and he calls out ‘Thankyou! I see that hand!’]

You may actually come to church but you’re just not sure you’re going to heaven- just want to be sure that you’re going to heaven. If that’s you today, why don’t you just raise your hand to [inaudible], ‘I really want to be sure that I’m going to heaven’. Or maybe that you’ve asked Jesus into your life but things with Him haven’t been good recently- gone away from God – you know you need to re-connect with Him today; you need to get your heart right with Him. If that’s you, why don’t you also just raise your hand? Wherever you are, put it in the air and back down again. That’s awesome. Thank you. Who else is there? You know you need to get their heart right with Him. I feel there’s two to three other people today. I’ll give you a chance just to get those things right with Him. Who else is their today? You need to take that step… That’s awesome. Church why don’t we pray together right now…”

[Prays with church, thanks Jesus and everyone applauds with him]


An Unholy Unicorn Union

August 24, 2010

Brandon Barthrop posts on Facebook:

Greetings supremely intoxicated bride of Christ! I want to let everyone know that Matt Ford of Fire it Up Ministries is also now booked to speak at Yom Drunkkur! It is going to be a massive event of galactic proportions. This event is worth a drive, or a plane ticket. Even if your already drunk, there is always more wine to drink, and more bread to eat! So come have some fun in the Son as we get undone and tell everyone!
-Pirate

To read more on Matt Ford, read here:

http://signposts02.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/fire-it-up-still-water-it-down/

And the discussion we had with them here:

http://signposts02.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/to-matthew-ford-franc-manhattan-of-fireitup-ministries/

http://signposts02.wordpress.com/2009/08/11/discussion-about-the-discussion-fire-it-up-ministries-franc-manhattan/

To read more on Brandon Barthrop, read here: http://signposts02.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/brandon-barthrop-lighting-up-on-the-wrong-light/

http://signposts02.wordpress.com/2009/11/17/clash-for-cash-barthrop-defiles-jesus/

http://signposts02.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/bonked-out-brandon/


My! Have Times Changed!

August 23, 2010
The AOG PJ's...

The AOG's PJ's...

Here is an old article I thought was worth keeping:

Diana Bagnall

The New Believers

Diana Bagnall wrote this cover story for the 11 April, 2000 issue of The Bulletin, with Newsweek, reproduced here with permission.

___________________

The Great Leap of Faith – comment by Max Welsh, Editor-in-Chief of The Bulletin:

In discussing the role of religion in Australian politics, especially with Americans, I stress the fact that Australia is probably the most secular of all the democracies. We do not have an established church.  At the individual level, people may claim allegiance to one faith or another but, in practice, we are not a church-going nation.

We do have religious leaders who speak with the authority of their rank. However, their ability to influence the national debate, let alone to set the national agenda is, at best, modest and usually marginal.

While committed Christians have formed themselves into non-partisan fellowships, at the federal parliamentary level there is no real equivalent of the Moral Majority movement in the United States.

I’m referring here to a mass political force.  The Pentecostal movement, which operates outside traditional religious groups, has been around for some time but it has a low profile in the national political-cum-social debate.

It may be that I’m the one out of touch, but I was surprised when senior writer Diana Bagnall told me more Australians attend Pentecostal services than Anglican churches.  This is a major, fast-growing religious force.

Its low profile is in large part due to its atomistic, as distinct from hierarchical, form of organisation.  But it also reflects a widely held view among Pentecostal leaders that the mass media – a singularly secular institution – has in the past sensationalised their activities, exhibiting more scorn and ridicule than sensitivity and understanding.

If that is true, it’s a pity because what is happening in this corner of Australian life is both interesting and important for what it says about our society.  It was on this basis that Bagnall researched and wrote our cover story.

____________________________________

Christianity is being born again.  Pentecostal congregations are swelling, the influence of their leaders is soaring, and politicians are starting to take notice.  Diana Bagnall examines the attraction of the absolute in an age of doubt.

There’s a point at which continuing to caricature a sizeable group of Australians as a weird or loony fringe when they are going about a lawful activity in a purposeful, well-organised manner begins to backfire.  Think of One Nation.  When the group numbers scores of thousands and has been notching up double-digit member- ship growth each year for the best part of two decades, the ridicule is clearly unsustainable.

Call them misguided if you want, or politically subversive, which they undoubtedly have the potential to become, but don’t trivialise born-again Christians as marginal or eccentric.  Because the numbers tell a different story.  Their signature mix of conservative theology and radical religious practice is as mainstream as the church comes these days if by mainstream we mean belonging to that part of the river where the water flows most strongly and in greatest volume.

That they are relatively invisible at a national level is partly because their culture and vocabulary is so particular (in many respects theirs is a parallel universe), and partly because the Pentecostal churches that attract them in the greatest numbers don’t have the street-corner presence of traditional churches.  Sure, a handful of Pentecostal congregations are housed on big acreages in large, purpose-built auditoriums, complete with cafes and youth centres, recording studios and schools, but more find a home in recycled buildings – warehouses, primary schools, community centres.  And that’s what’s fooled us.

We haven’t seen the communities and the networks.  And they’re big, vigorous and potentially powerful.  Brian Houston, who heads the Assemblies of God denomination in Australia, estimates that there are 3000 full-time trainees in AOG Bible colleges across the country.  Many of these churches are young churches.  In the Christian City Church, a Sydney-based denomination that didn’t exist 20 years ago and now claims 25,000 members worldwide, for example, 70% of attendees are aged I5-39.  The predominant style is contemporary and prosperous. Hip even.

These are places where winners hang out, where the rewards are tangible and tantalising.  They promise the good life on Earth, and of course, the bonus of eternal life.  They offer intimacy and excitement, a sense of belonging and of righteousness.  A heady mix.

The church in decline has become a media cliché.  Church leaders, those whose opinions are sought out because their brands of Christianity are familiar and visible, are increasingly portrayed as desperate men, maximising what’s left of greatly depleted stores of spiritual and temporal authority.  One minute they’re talking of the need to market their spiritual “programs” more effectively, the next they’re wading more deeply, with government encouragement, into bureaucratised social welfare.

Save for the odd embarrassing episode where a triumphant Melbourne Cup jockey  or superstar footballer takes advantage of  his media access to proclaim his love for the  Lord, there is little in the mainstream media  to suggest that the church is anything other  than a cultural backwater populated by the  elderly and the backward-looking.  Census data seems to prove the point.  It shows a 35. 5% increase between I99I and I996 in the number of Australians saying they had no religion and the major Christian denominations losing market share.

So what about the 3500 people who turn up each weekend to worship at the Christian City Church in Oxford Falls, near Sydney’s northern beaches? What about the 5000 women who milled among the marquees and pots of pink and magenta petunias at Pastor Bobbie Houston’s women’s conference last month at the Hills Christian Life Centre in Sydney’s Baulkham Hills?  What about the 1200-strong Ipswich Region Community Church in Queensland waiting on the completion of a new 1000-seat auditorium and 350-seat youth and children’s facility?  What about the 100,000 people who are expected to march into the Sydney Olympic Stadium on June 10  (the Day of Pentecost) under the banner of the Awakening 2000 movement to celebrate ‘the reason for the turning of the millennium’?  Don’t they count?

As a combined grouping, there are now more people worshipping in Pentecostal churches than at Anglican churches each week, according to the most recent National Church Life Survey.  Only Catholic parishes have a greater number of attendees.  But these new Christian communities don’t just restrict themselves to Pentecostal churches, which makes the business of mapping their influence much more difficult than simply counting bums on pews.  There are contemporary evangelical, charismatic and Pentecostal churches across denominations, says Melbourne Anglican leader Peter Corney.  “The majority of adults attending Protestant churches on Sunday in Australia would go to one of these types of churches,” he says.  “Almost all the large churches (that is, over 500 members), and the churches with young congregations, fall into those categories.”

For just as loyalty to political parties has broken down over the past decade and capturing the swinging voter has become the measure of political success, so too the old religious tribal connections have broken down.  People are open to persuasion.  In the new churches the power of the message is in its communication.  “We scratch where people are itching,” says Mark Edwards, 41, an ex-lawyer who has increased membership of the Ipswich Region Community Church sixfold in the eight years he has been its senior minister.

His sermons are more likely to focus on financial management (he has just finished a two-year term as president of the local chamber of commerce) and work issues, relationships and raising children than on fine theological argument.  But, fundamentally, there is still only one message – salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.  Part and parcel of that is acceptance of the Bible’s authority, literally across the board. …  For it is now well understood by those who analyse patterns of church growth and decline that firmly drawn boundaries and clearly stated values are an asset rather than a liability to churches in a post-modernist world characterised by impermanence and relativity.  The balance of theological power is shifting on the ground as people vote with their feet for more conservative, orthodox Christian values.

“Liberal theology has reigned supreme in the theological colleges, and still does, but out there, in the trenches, the whole liberal theology thing just hasn’t worked,” explains Peter Corney, who until last June was vicar of St Hillary’s Anglican Church, in Melbourne’s Kew.  “It has failed to capture the hearts and minds of a generation of young people.”

The average size of Anglican and Protestant congregations in Australia is around 70, with more than a third having fewer than 25 attendees, according to the National Church Life Survey.  Yet in 20 years, under Corney’s evangelical leadership, the congregation at St Hillary’s grew from 150 to 1000.  Most of those filling the pews in the two Sunday evening services are under 25.  Further east in the same city, 2300 people pack the pews of Crossway Baptist Church which under ex-missionary Stuart Robinson’s leadership has grown by about 20% each year since the mid ’90s.  People lock into clearly defined vision and values, says Robinson.  “They want to know where they are going.”

In fact, St Hillary’s and Crossway are the exception rather than the rule in more than one respect.  For while Corney believes that the church is entering a post-denominational era, it is an undeniable fact that most of Australia’s mega-churches are Pentecostal, not in itself a denomination but a brand of Christianity that features as its centrepiece the highly charged experience called baptism of the Holy Spirit.  The most common sign of a Pentecostal experience is that a person begins speaking in tongues (making sounds that usually they can’t understand and feel they can’t control), but there are other signs such as falling to the ground in a trance or, as happened first in Toronto in the early ’90s, laughing uncontrollably (the Toronto Blessing).

Pentecostal churches have been around since the beginning of the century, but burst into international prominence in the ’70s during the so-called charismatic renewal.  At that time, a fair few people attending regular churches were also caught up in Pentecostal-style worship.  While some of them defected early on to the Pentecostal churches, many hung in with the old denominations hoping they would move with the times.  By and large they were disappointed, and by the mid ’80s large numbers of church-goers were spilling out of old churches and into new ones in a massive shift in the Protestant landscape that some have compared to the Reformation of the 16th century.

That exodus gathered momentum in the ’90s.  Between the 1991 and 1996 censuses, Pentecostal groups overall increased their membership by 16%.  In terms of the number of congregations established, the growth appears to be even more dramatic.  The National Church Life Survey found that between 1991 and 1996 the number of congregations within four Pentecostal denominations, the Assemblies of God, Foursquare Gospel, Christian Revival Crusade and the Apostolic Church, had grown from 832 to 1046, a 26% increase.

The NCLS found that the overall growth in Pentecostal denominations was predominantly due to ‘switchers’, that is people who are joining from other denominations.  The survey found nearly three times as many switches joining the Pentecostal churches as there were newcomers without a church background.

The leaders of these new churches make no apology for their gain at another’s expense,  “People will go where it’s happening for them,” Phil Pringle, 47, founding head of Christian City Churches and senior pastor of the mega-church at Oxford Falls.  At Brian Houston’s Assembly of God church at Baulkham Hills in the north-west of Sydney, growth is limited to how many carpark spaces can be accommodated on the 8.5-hectare site.   The church is about to embark on building a 3500-seat auditorium.  “Most people here think it is too small,” he says.  Already, the Hills Christian Life Centre pushes through 7000 churchgoers on any one weekend.  Like those who attend any of the big, new regional churches, they are likely to drive past 100 other churches on their way.  The question is, why?

We can talk, as Pringle does, about an “ache” for God, we can talk about seeking refuge from the confusion of modern life and about the eternal longing for meaning.  And all these things go some way to explaining the filling up of the churches.  But there are more temporal reasons, to do with charisma, seductive packaging, the power of positive thinking, professional standards and, possibly most importantly, the effective harnessing of youthful idealism and passion.

Men like Pringle and Houston bear as little resemblance to conventional clergymen as Brad Pitt does to Laurence Olivier.  Pringle, once an art student and still a painter, started his church in 1980 with 12 people in the Dee Why Surf Club on Sydney’s northern beaches.  It has grown into a denomination (a formalised denomination, that is) encompassing, according to his estimates, 25,000 people in 100 churches around the world.  Houston, 46, runs two Assembly of God churches and one of gospel music’s most successful recording stories, Hillsong Music, which claims annual worldwide sales of more than 2 million albums.  Aside from the Baulkham Hills operation, there’s a smaller church at Waterloo in central Sydney with a congregation of 2300.

Not for Pringle or Houston the quiet scratch of pen on paper within the sanctuary of a book-lined study.  They move at a furious pace, as much entrepreneur as pastor, as much celebrity as preacher.  It is nothing for them to be opening a new church in Los Angeles one week, addressing a conference on the Gold Coast the next, all the while churning out the next motivational book, overseeing the operations of their various training colleges and schools and co-ordinating the activities of roving teams of laptop-toting pastors, big pools of musicians and singers, and expanding counselling and community service arms.

Masters of communications technologies, they draw around them sophisticated teams to produce web sites and videos, music recordings and television programs for broadcast on both free-to-air and pay TV (the Australian Christian Channel is part of Optus TVs basic package).  Their core role, however, is to spearhead the growth of their churches by presenting their deeply conservative religious message week after week in a compelling, high-energy, contemporary format.

“I would struggle with that kind of pressure,” admits Father Mike Delancy, a Catholic parish priest at New Norfolk in rural Tasmania whose daily pastoral fare is much more likely to be a funeral service than a baptism of any sort.  He’s involved in the ecumenical Awakening movement, and unusually for a man of his cloth, counts many  Pentecostal pastors as his friends.  “The flip side for them is that when the high energy drops off, so do the people,” he says.

Physically, the churches these men lead (and make no mistake, this is a man’s world – women have a vital place in it, but the Bible’s teaching is firm on the gender hierarchy) are designed to be user-friendly for “seekers”, as newcomers are called.  No knee-bruising pews, no distracting religious icons.

The purpose-built auditoriums are cathedrals of modern entertainment with all the technological wizardry.  Christian City Church at Oxford Falls is in the process of redesigning its web site to give live online access to church services.

But even in more modest locations, church services are conceived of as multimedia events – display windows for marketing Christianity – rather than as liturgical set pieces to mark a religious calendar.

There’s none of that intimidating business of knowing when to stand and when to kneel, and which page of the order of service or which number hymn to turn to.  “Culturally relevant” is the buzz phrase used to describe the approach.

Instead of priests and altar boys, the focus of attention is a rock band, usually several musicians and singers who pump out music with the catchy rhythms and romantic tub of good pop.  The words are simple, and projected on big screens.

In fact, the services are not unlike Saturday night variety TV – seemingly effortless, but planned down to the last minute.  At Edwards’ Assembly of God church in Ipswich each service (and, typically, there are several each Sunday, designed for different congregations) is planned six months in advance by a salaried creative arts director who leads a team of about nine people and draws on a bigger pool of about 70 musicians, singers, sound, lighting and drama people.  Edwards explains: “You go to a Barbra Streisand concert and you expect a certain standard of that concert.  Why should people who come to our church expect any less?”

Edwards is a former lawyer, a local lad who switched careers in his mid-30s to follow his passionate belief.  He’s typical of the new breed of church leader – intelligent, thoughtful and community oriented.  Bronwyn Hughes, a member of the National Church Life Survey team, says leaders of growing churches have a profile that closely matches the leadership profile of management literature.  “These people function in a similar change environment.  [Their role] is about mobilising people, and gaining their trust.”

Some of the new church leaders are traditionally trained denominational ministers but the great majority are not.  Melbourne pastor Mark Conner, for example, inherited the church from his father, Kevin.  He was a musician and a youth leader before he took over the reins.  Houston, too, inherited his church from his father Frank (there’s a dynastic streak in these churches). Robinson, of Crossway Baptist, says his Pentecostal friends laugh at him because he has a string of degrees.  “In contemporary church, we don’t place a high value on the status of ordination,” he explains.  A leadership “gift”, by contrast, is mandatory.  “I think all these guys could run a large company somewhere,” explains  Corney, who is now executive director of the  interdenominational Institute of  Contemporary Christian Leadership.

Yet, curiously, they have relatively little profile beyond their own world.  That, it seems, is about to change.  “The church that  I see is a church of influence, a church so large in size that the city and the nation can’t ignore it, a church growing so quickly that the buildings struggle to contain [it] . . .” write Houston and his wife Bobbie in a manifesto placed prominently in the foyer at Baulkham Hills -just a few metres away from the Brian and Bobbie exhibition stand, a bookstall of their books and videos over  which their names are written in neon script.

Houston’s stated desire for influence more in keeping with the size of his church is a sharp new turn for the Pentecostals.  Until very recently, Pentecostals have lacked a cohesive national voice.  The hallmark of Pentecostal churches is that they are strongly autonomous.  Individual pastors run their own show and are not answerable to a church hierarchy.  To their members, that flat management structure is undoubtedly a drawcard, but it means these new churches lack any kind of  national cohesion, and they’ve punched  below their weight politically.  But if politics is about whose values are going to prevail, then these communities are finding their voice.

On February 18, Houston launched a new alliance of Pentecostal churches called  Australian Christian Churches claiming to represent more than 1000 churches and  170,000 members.  That’s by no means all the Pentecostals in Australia.  Pringle’s Christian City Church is not yet involved, and may never he (there is territorial jealousy in this arm of the church too).

But the intention behind the new alliance is what counts.  “If the people of God see themselves as grasshoppers, everyone else sees them as grasshoppers,” says Houston, leaning forward, his elbows resting on his long legs, the blond highlights in his hair an altogether unsurprising touch in a thoroughly modern  preacher.  “I want to change inside the church  . . .  [I want it to he known] that the message of God is valid, that there is nothing to apologise for.  I believe it is time that we started to see ourselves as a legitimate voice of the church and no one else is going to see that if we don’t even see ourselves that way.”

Rearing its head here is the old Pentecostal underdog.  They are used to being out in the cold.  For example, Houston was only in January asked to join the National Council of Churches even though he was appointed national president of the Assemblies of God in May 1997.  Pringle comments wryly that “maybe we have enjoyed it out there a little.”  And it is undoubtedly true that Pentecostals revel in their outsider status.   When Hollywood pastor in pink, the impeccably manicured Holly Wagner (a dead ringer  for Meg Ryan) excitedly told of a deal she had  struck with “the secular publisher HarperCollins” to publish her book The Dumb Things She Does, The Dumb Things He Does, she  spoke of taking her book “out there”.  There is that degree of them and us going on here.

So what is the Australian Christian Churches’ agenda? Making disciples, of course.   There is no other for Christians.  “I love this country and I really believe the church has answers for Australia.  I genuinely would like to see the church helping people and give them the answers that they want,” says Houston.

Pringle is going down another path.  Last year, Prime Minister John Howard opened Pringle’s church at Oxford Falls.  Pringle is in Canberra reasonably often, at the invitation of Alan Cadman, federal member for Mitchell, who attends some of the CCC’s services.  He has lunched with John Anderson, John Forrest and Brian Harradine.  He doesn’t like the idea of Australia developing a Christian political party.  Neither does Ian Jagelman, a former PricewaterhouseCoopers accountant who is now senior pastor of a 1000-strong church in the Sydney district of Lane Cove-Ryde.  “I am not sure that we are not better off having strong relationships with our local members and when an issue comes up letting them know what we think about it,” he says.  “There comes a point where our church will he so big, where clearly people in the political process will want to know what we think.”

©  Reproduced with permission from The Bulletin, Vol. 118, No 6219, 11 April 2000.

False Advertising for False Prophets

August 23, 2010

These adds are currently being played on www.Biblegateway.com:

This includes Brian Houston and also the worst ever Sid Roth. Link to the site is here: http://www.lightsource.com/?utm_source=biblegateway&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=email%2Bacquisition

God help the church! E-mail a complaint this false advertising. It will only take a second:

http://www.biblegateway.com/feedback/


2010 Australian Federal Election

August 20, 2010

This is the thread in which to mention any ‘Christian political advertising’ that you’ve come across – whether you see this post before or after this Federal Election.

Is there a Christian way to vote?

Everyone is telling us how we should vote, and various Christian leaders are busy trying to influence us in our direction as well. Are they right to do so?

Newtaste said on another thread:

“Joel A’Belll of Hillsong just posted this video on YouTube. It is his daughter Harmony advising on how to vote tomorrow. I detect a Liberal bias.”

Brings back memories for me of when I was a little girl, wearing a ‘Vote Liberal’ Tshirt – back in 1975. Didn’t have a clue what it was all about. I was much younger than Harmony, but I still remember the election fervour.

Teddy responded to Newtaste:

“Well, another pastor just posted this on my FB……

Ecc 10:2 “A wise man’s heart inclines him to the right,but a fool’s heart to the left.”

:) :)

If Danny Nalliah is true to form, he will be prophecying a Liberal victory as long as Christians vote the way God wants them to – if Labour wins, it will be due to our unfaithfulness. In him we have the extreme Christian right.

In the recent Anabaptist newsletter though, a small survey of readers reveals a distinct left preference towards the Greens, based on intellectual Christian assessments of enviromental and social justice issues. To be honest, I think they are sane, whereas when it comes to Nalliah – I’m not sure! They also have an interview with Jim Longley, who was an Anabaptist Liberal politician from 1986-1996. He served as Minister for Community Services, Aboriginal Affairs and Aging from 1992 until 1995.

Of course we also have Family First, again representing families, but with a clear Christian association.

Haven’t come across much telling me to vote Labour in order to be Christian, but I’m sure its out there somewhere. We are all aware of their historic association with the Catholic church. Of course this election, it is Tony Abbott who is known to be Catholic, and who almost became a Catholic priest. Is it relevant or not that Julia Gillard is an aetheist?

Does your faith affect your vote? Is this something our church leaders should try to influence us in? In the past, my church leaders have refrained from trying to influence us, which I think was appreciated by most people.

******************
RavingPente


Nagaland Warning: C3 SINagogue-of-Satan Plant Near You! (Pringle Quotes)

August 18, 2010

There all in this together:

  1. John_realmen_04_normal stevowarren RT @philpringle: RT @johngilbank: C3 Nagaland India kicked off last night with 120 uni students & young professionals (via @RyantheLegend) 1 day ago via ÜberTwitter
  2. Pp_3a_normal philpringle RT @mccudden1: RT @johngilbank: C3 Nagaland India kicked off last night with 120 uni students & young professionals (via @RyantheLegend) 1 day ago via TweetDeck
  3. Pa160012_2_normal mccudden1 RT @johngilbank: C3 Nagaland India kicked off last night with 120 uni students & young professionals (via @RyantheLegend) 1 day ago via Twitterrific
  4. John_realmen_04_normal JohnGilbank C3 Nagaland India kicked off last night with 120 uni students & young professionals 1 day ago via Mobile Web

Heres an idea what happened in Nagaland in the 1970′s:

Nagaland Revival

By Editorial Staff
Published December 2007

KOHIMA, India (FR) – News about ground-breaking peace accords or world-shaking political movements probably won’t come out of this small, politically insignificant state in far east India. However, Nagaland has distinguished itself by being the only Christian state in the world with a 90 percent Christian population … with record numbers of youth pledging their lives to missions. Mass prayer meetings are held once a month for the nation as well as for the neighboring countries of Burma, Bhutan, China and Pakistan.

The radical transition from being a Hindu state comprised of loosely organized tribes to a Christian government took place as a result of an unusual revival that swept through the villages and tribes between 1976 and 1978. Miraculous healings were commonplace, said Rev. Joseph Paul of Christ for Nagaland Ministries, which began when “hundreds of people confessed their sins and repented of their old ways.” There are proportionately more born-again believers in Nagaland than any other place in the world, according to statistics gathered by Operation World.

Despite the revival, Nagaland is closed to outsiders because of the danger of military insurgency. Since 1947, Indian armed forces were kept in Nagaland, and Naga insurgents against the Hindu police were “put down with a cruel hand,” said Rev. Paul. “Until 1972 there was always fighting and killing of innocent Naga tribals. Peace, if one can call it peace, was here only from 1980.”

During the 1970s, Nagaland was nearly a police state, with many suffering at the hands of Hindu security forces. “Even as late as 1979 Naga villagers were shot at and killed by the Hindu armed forces of Assam,” said Rev. Paul. “This was played down by the Indian government, which always termed any trouble with Nagas as Naga insurgency. During these times the church called the people to fast and pray.”

Strategically located next to Burma and surrounded by China, Bangladesh and India, Rev. Paul said he believes that Naga youth are the key to evangelizing these predominantly Hindu and Muslim nations. At Christ for Nagaland Bible College, students are taught sacrificial living, which prepares them to live a life of “barefoot evangelism.” They are then sent to the tribes of Arunchal, Sikkim, Bhutan, Burma and across the China border.

Prior to each semester, the students fast and pray for two days. “Students are also taught to fast and pray for their individual and corporate needs.” Rev. Paul added that his goal is to train 2,000 leaders. Currently there are 62 missionaries who have been trained and sent into those countries.

Christianity was planted in Nagaland by American Baptist missionaries in the 1800s. When they came, Nagaland was basically a warrior nation. However, Christianity reversed the tide of tribal warfare. “At great risk to their lives, the American pioneer missionaries brought the gospel to the Nagas,” Paul explained.

From: http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0832_Nagaland_Revival.html

Another article on this hear: http://journalchretien.net/5059-The-Extraordinary-Revival-That-Is?lang=fr


Mark His Words And See The Bull

August 16, 2010

When will the Church stop being politically correct? By Pr Daniel

Published by Office 2 August 12th, 2010 in A Call To Action, Abortion, Australia, Bible, Christian Church Issues, Christian Persecution, Courage, Elections, Freedom of Religion, Politics, Prayer, Rise Up Australia, World News

Dear family & friends in Christ,

Let me start by saying that our battle is not against flesh & blood, but against principalities and powers of darkness in high places (Eph. 6:11-12).

We as pastors and Christian leaders are accountable to God to lead the flock He has entrusted into our hands in the right path. We must stop being politically correct, and return to being biblically correct.  We desperately need your faithful intercessory prayer support (1 Timothy 2:1-7).

In the last few days I have received several phone calls and emails from Christians (including pastors and other Christian leaders) around the country asking me as to why Australian Christian Lobby appears to be promoting self-confessing atheist Julia Gillard for PM in this election and why the Senior Pastor of City Life Church recently stated in the Age newspaper on 6th August that he was not overly concerned by PM Julia Gillard’s atheism, ”Primarily you are looking at them to have what it takes to run the nation.”

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-election/gillard-bid-to-win-back-christians-20100805-11krh.html

I personally called the Senior Pastor to speak to him, but he was out of the country, so I spoke to his personal assistant who was very kind and cooperative in assuring me that she will talk to him and get back to me. As promised she did call me and confirmed that the Pastor had spoken to the Age newspaper journalist and that his response was on his blog.

I read through his blog, but could not find a clear answer to the question as to whether or not it concerned him that the PM was an atheist, so I also contacted the Age journalist who told me that his question to the Pastor about his concern over the PM’s atheism was very straight forward. For which the Pastor responded by saying, ”Primarily you are looking at them to have what it takes to run the nation.”

We also recently read in the news media and on the ACL website that ACL (Australian Christian Lobby) was successful in getting PM Julia Gillard to speak to the Christian voters through the ACL website, where she made several promises in order to win back the Christian vote.

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-election/gillard-pitches-to-christian-voters-20100807-11pih.html

The question we all need to ask is, “Was PM Gillard genuine or was she simply making promises that she will never deliver. I was surprised when I heard that ACL was giving such a forum to Julia Gillard, knowing very well that she is an atheist. Many asked me “Why is ACL doing this again as they did the same with Rudd?” I honestly cannot understand how a Christian leader could give an atheist such a platform to mislead the Christian voters.

Last week I was surprised to read in the latest ACL news that they still speak of Kevin Rudd as a true Christian. How can Rudd be a true Christian, when he refused to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God.  Furthermore, within one week of becoming PM he stated that “he will not look to God for advice but to his public servants.” Of course, what you sow is what you reap as his public servants did get him out before even he finished one term as PM.  Then in his closing speech as PM, he mocked God by referring to Him as ‘him or her’.

Mr Rudd constantly stated that he was a ‘garden variety Christian, whatever that means. I wonder as to how many Christians, pastors and leaders included, are the same. If they cannot see what is so plain and simple, it will be a very sad ending as many Christian sheep will be mislead by these Christian shepherds. (Gal 2:11-14, 2 Tim 2: 16-18 & 4:14, Titus 1:12-16)

PM Gillard promised that she will give more funding for chaplains. Yes she might do so, but could it be that she will remove all Christian chaplains and replace them with secular chaplains with atheistic values?? Can she keep a promise?? When she herself does not value marriage, how could you trust her not to give the homosexual community marriage rights??

I am shocked that some Christians leaders could even state that they are willing to have an atheist as the PM.  Ms Gillard publically stated that she is an atheist who does not believe in God. Now she has suddenly promised to give 1.5 million dollars to the catholic church in order to make a saint of Mary MacKilliop because she wants to win back the catholic vote.

How can any Bible-believing God-fearing Christian leader promote her when she is openly an atheist, very much a part of Emily’s List (pro-abortion) Fabien society (socialism) living in an de-facto relationship, refused to take the oath on the Bible and anti-God list goes on.  Now to make things even worse she has formed an alliance with the Greens.

Pastor Daniel NalliahI believe if Julia Gillard is elected as PM, mark my words, she will stop The Lord’s Prayer in parliament, remove Bibles from every place possible, make full term abortion available right across Australia, will give homosexuals full rights, will remove Christian chaplains out of schools, will pass laws to ban Christian evangelism and make it hard to speak the truth.  Interfaith will become the nation’s main religious force, Australia will turn against Israel,  our Judeo-Christian heritage will be completely destroyed, Islam will gain much ground like in Europe (as 8 out of 10 boats carry mostly Muslims) and the list goes on.

So we need to ask a serious question, “Are we going to continue to blindly follow the Christian shepherds who are misleading the flock?” The Word of God is clear, cleansing of a nation and judgement begins in the house of God, the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 4:17).

I think it’s time to ask some hard questions from our leaders.

Why are many Pastors and Christian leaders not speaking out boldly to warn God’s people against the danger of an ungodly atheist Prime Minister leading our blessed nation of Australia, this Great South Land of the Holy Spirit?

You could call City Life Church in Melbourne on (03) 9871 8300 or email  Pastoral@CityLifeChurch.com

ACL in Canberra can be contacted on (02) 6259 0431 or email him at http://australianchristianlobby.org.au/contact-us/

The Bible clearly states in Joel 2:17, “Let the Priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, spare thy people, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the HEATHEN should rule over them; Wherefore should they say among the people, ‘where is their God?’”

Your brother in Christ,

Pr Daniel Nalliah

From: http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/2010/08/12/when-will-the-church-stop-being-politically-correct-by-pr-daniel/


You Will Know Them By Their Dupes…

August 16, 2010

Lance posted this revealing article up at Groupsects:

“Family First, the whirlwind political force that shook Australian politics six years ago, grabbing a key Senate seat and direct access to the Prime Minister’s office, appears to be on the brink of political collapse.

Its federal campaign is in chaos with a dumped candidate who supports gay marriage, a Twitter scandal and an alleged flirtation with the Australian Sex Party threatening the standing of the standard bearer of the religious right and its backing by well-financed evangelical churches.

Family First is struggling to repeat its stunning success of 2004. That year, the party’s federal branch raked in more than $1.6 million in donations and loans, but by June last year it was mired in more than $200,000 of debt, according to its financial statements. A taxpayer-funded party allowance accounted for most of its $19,792 income in 2008-09.

South Australian church figure Peter Harris, Family First’s one-time figurehead and financial backer, is facing financial woes after the $12.9 million collapse of his private company Hardel last year.

The party may soon be drawn into those troubles, as the company’s liquidators investigate a $153,000 debt the party allegedly owes Hardel’s unsecured creditors, several of whom, like Mr Harris, were Assemblies of God parishioners in Adelaide.

The deep pockets and political ambition of chairman and South Australian Senate candidate Bob Day, a residential property tycoon, may yet save Family First from financial collapse. Mr Day, 58, was a long-time Liberal who quit in 2008 after losing a preselection battle for the seat of Mayo.

But Family First is set to lose its one Victorian Senate seat , with Labor declining to repeat its 2004 tactic of preferencing Family First ahead of the Greens, a move which gifted Steve Fielding the state’s final Senate spot. Mr Day is rated only a slim chance to win a seat in South Australia.

Senator Fielding’s campaigns on issues as diverse as climate science, grocery prices and bank fees helped boost the party’s profile, but Family First’s attempts to paint itself as a credible mainstream force have been undermined by gaffes.

In June, Senator Fielding came under attack for an outburst about ”drug addicts and welfare cheats” rorting paid maternity leave with late-term abortions.

In recent weeks, the Australian Sex Party claimed Family First members tried to broker a preference deal between the two parties. It would have been a remarkable partnership between ideological antagonists.

A Twitter scandal was unleashed last Sunday, when Queensland Senate candidate Wendy Francis likened legitimising gay marriage to ”legalising child abuse”.

Then came the dumping of Family First’s candidate for the Victorian seat of La Trobe, David Barrow, who followed Mrs Francis’ anti-gay statements by declaring his support of same-sex marriage.

Mr Barrow is a self-styled anti-bank-fee activist who is suing the Commonwealth Bank over $60 of fees charged to his account. His platform is pro small business and anti big bank.

Mr Barrow first met Family First on July 16 to discuss running at the election. After an interview with two party officers at Senator Fielding’s Mount Waverley office, he was endorsed as the candidate for La Trobe a week later.

”They did not ask me about any of my personal values on abortion, euthanasia or family couples who are not a heterosexual man and a woman,” Mr Barrow said. ”I’m in an interview for an hour as a candidate and none of these questions are asked. Not one.”

Mr Barrow was given a ”core values questionnaire” – 18 questions to be answered with either a yes or no – canvassing his views on abortion, euthanasia, same-sex marriage and the teaching of ”values” in schools.

Mr Barrow, who has a degree in philosophy from Melbourne University, answered all questions, but did so in the presence of a justice of the peace, and provided caveats to each answer in a sworn affidavit, which was never given to Family First.

Mr Barrow’s tenure as a Family First candidate was brief – it came to an end on Monday night, hours after he posted declarations of support for gay marriage on the popular blog MamaMia – but has been embarrassing for the party.

Mr Barrow has documented his time with the party on his website, revealing how he was asked to recruit family and friends to man the booths on polling day. He likens this to a ”dodgy direct-marketing scheme rather than an organised political party”.

Mr Barrow said he was told the aim of the campaign in La Trobe was to get people on the ground distributing how-to-vote cards to aid the re-election of Senator Fielding.

In other seats, Family First candidates have reportedly refused to campaign at all, but will turn out on election day to man the booths.

Mr Barrow was also asked to provide his own ”campaign funding strategy”. The party’s latest financial disclosure suggests it has limited funds, with debts of almost $200,000 as of June 2009.

But Mr Day told The Sunday Age that ”the debt is to Family First executive members so it’s not a problem at all. It’s debt that has been there for quite some years.”

He said the 14-month-old Australian Electoral Commission filings did not reflect the party’s current financial state.

But Family First is now in danger of becoming embroiled in the financial troubles of Mr Harris. Mr Harris’s company, Hardel, was a major bankroller of the party in its early days – donating office space, administrative support and salaries as the party got off the ground, and handing over donations and loans worth tens of thousands of dollars, AEC records show.

But Mr Day said last week that Mr Harris was no longer involved with the party, ”and hasn’t been for many years”.

Mr Harris did not return calls from The Sunday Age.

Mr Harris is now attempting to salvage Hardel from liquidation through a company reconstruction, as Hardel’s liquidators, O’Brien Palmer, try to recover funds for Hardel’s creditors. Their avenues include a loan made by Hardel to Family First several years ago, that the party disputes and has so far refused to pay.

Family First’s latest AEC filing states that it owed Hardel $13,500 as of June last year. But O’Brien Palmer’s director of insolvency and reconstruction, Robert Ritchie, said the firm has since obtained evidence supporting the existence of a much larger debt.

Based on amended financial statements provided by Mr Harris in June, the liquidators now believe Family First owes Hardel’s creditors $153,000.

”On the basis that I’m satisfied that the debt is due to the company, I will seek to have the debt repaid,” Mr Ritchie said.

If Family First refused to acknowledge or repay the debt, Mr Ritchie said he might be left with ”no option but to commence legal proceedings to recover the debt”.

Mr Day said the party had written to O’Brien Palmer last year, ”and denied that we owe them the amount that they were claiming…….”

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Source: .theage.com.au/federal-election/sex-debt-and-heads-that-roll-a-family-saga-of-biblical-proportions-20100814-12489.html

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Some of you may have received this annoying email from some of your Christian friends. I wonder if this poorly researched Christian email wouldn’t help with the FFP either:

Political Party Checklist Email Download.pdf

You also may like to see these areas explained a bit more indepth here:

http://www.christianvalues.org.au/Supporting_statements-Brief_-_single_pg__1_.pdf

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The email with the above attachment is the latest to go circling around this current election. Prior to that, there was another one circling around the 2004 election. After digging in some of the archives of DogFightAtBankstown, I found a link to an article that talked about the first email that circulated:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/22/1095651395723.html

Parties put to the Christian test

By Barney Zwartz || September 23, 2004

Would you like to know which parties support work for the dole, oppose euthanasia and support prayers to open Parliament?

Christian lobbyists have prepared a card comparing the parties on 26 moral issues.

Australia’s moral direction is more important than its economic one, according to Peter Stokes, executive officer of Salt Shakers. “It’s not good to go broke. But if the country breaks down morally the rest will follow, and we see that in society now,” he said yesterday.

Mr Stokes said the guide was prepared mostly by Salt Shakers, Bill Muehlenberg of the Australian Federation for the Family, and former SAS chief Jim Wallace, who heads the Australian Christian Lobby. Fred Nile’s Christian Democrats and Family First have a perfect score, while the Greens and Democrats score zero. The Liberals get 16, with one question mark (either no stated policy or a conscience vote); Labor scores nine with two question marks.

Issues include affirming marriage over de facto cohabitation, stopping Medicare funding of abortion, opposing heroin trials and overturning ratification of the International Criminal Court.

Social justice issues such as refugees are not canvassed. “We felt that if we put out what we think is a Christian perspective, we’d alienate half the Christian community,” Mr Stokes said.

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Also I’ve compiled some of Saint’s resource that used to belong at DogFightAtBankstown that spoke of the Christian Family First Party’s political involvement. These old resources are a very insightful read. Click below to download:

DogFightAtBankstown FamilyFirstParty Resource

S&P


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