Happy Reformation Day! May We Be Unite- *WHACK!*

From: http://www.ofb.biz/safari/article/682.html

Reformation Day 2010: Dividing Christians

By Alan Meyers | Oct 30, 2010 at 23:55:43

It may be that all of us have “hot buttons” – things we sometimes hear other people say that irritate us or even enrage us. A hot button for professors of religion (or at least for me) is to hear someone juxtapose the word “Christian” and the word “Catholic.”

Students have sometimes asked me if someone we both knew was a Christian or a Catholic, as though the two descriptions were mutually exclusive. Surely, every educated person should know that Catholics constitute one variety of Christian, as Protestants constitute another variety (or rather, a very large set of varieties!), and Orthodox another variety or set of varieties, and so forth? The question “Christian or Catholic?” is what is called in philosophy a category mistake. The first category, properly understood, includes the second, and includes others as well. The first category and the second category are not mutually exclusive. Asking “Christian or Catholic?” is a bit like asking “American or Missourian?” or “Sports fan or baseball fan?”

SOURCE: Library of Congress

My understanding of the meaning of the word “Christian” is that it is a descriptive term, not a normative one. That is, when I use the word Christian correctly it simply refers to anyone whose religion centers on the figure of Jesus of Nazareth, as the religion of Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox and others does, whether I personally agree with all which that person believes about Jesus or not, and whether or not I approve of any other of that person’s beliefs or practices.

When I call someone a Christian, I am not necessarily endorsing all that person’s beliefs, but only describing them, or at least some of them. I hasten to add here that, while I am a Presbyterian (a particular kind of Christian) I find myself in general agreement with most of the essentials of what the Catholics I know believe, as well as a great deal of what other categories of non-Presbyterian Christians believe. But, should I meet a person who claims to be a Christian, and who seems to understand that this term means positive identification with Jesus, I recognize the correctness of his or her use of the term, even if I do happen to disagree with other beliefs he or she holds. As D.T. Niles, the great churchman, used to say, you can be a Christian and have a very bad theology.

This is supposed to be a Reformation Day piece. What does the above have to do with the Reformation? Well:

I think it is obvious that what people mean when they say “Christian or Catholic” is “Protestant or Catholic.” The good old word “Protestant” seems to have disappeared from the vocabulary of the contemporary Christians who style themselves evangelicals. “Protestant” used to refer to those Christians who traced their particular understanding of the Christian faith back to the Reformation of the sixteenth century, to the teachings of Martin Luther and John Calvin and those other great leaders whom history calls the Reformers.

Those Reformers, in fact, liked being called Evangelical, a word that means “pertaining to the gospel.” They had an understanding of the gospel, the Christian message, which they felt had been lost during the previous thousand years of church history and which they now wished to proclaim once again. They did proclaim it, powerfully and successfully, so much so that the essentials of the Reformers’ understanding of the Christian message are none other, I think, than the essentials of what today’s evangelicals (as well as very many Christians who do not usually call themselves evangelicals) hold to be true. These essentials include:

• Justification by faith alone. We are set right with God and find salvation, not through our own good works, but by the grace of God in Jesus Christ, which we receive by faith in God’s Word.

• Scripture – the Bible – as the place where God’s Word is most truly heard.

• The priesthood of all believers. That is, each one of us must have a personal relationship of our own with God through Jesus Christ. We need no human mediator other than Christ himself – though the message of Christ ordinarily reaches us through some human ministry and creates a human community.

Now, to repeat, I am certain that, in this day and age, there are a great many Christians who do not call themselves Protestants or evangelicals and who do not identify themselves with the Reformation, but who might claim the beliefs above as central tenets of their own faith. At least, these items are topics of dialogue and discussion among Christian groups today. The old boundary lines and battle cries of the wars among Christians have to a large extent faded. The essentials I listed above, or thinking about them, anyway, are the common heritage of Protestants and Catholics and other kinds of Christians. Still, those of us who belong to the churches that are historically linked to the Reformation may justly claim a peculiar relationship to these essentials of the faith. They are what we bring to dialogue and discussion among Christian groups. We can signal our identification with the Reformation and its heritage by calling ourselves “Protestants.” If you don’t like that term, find another.

But, here’s the bottom line: it is at best ignorant and at worst unChristlike bigotry to ask, “Christian or Catholic?” It may still be useful and helpful to ask, “Protestant or Catholic?” and to reflect on the inestimable treasure that the Reformation bequeathed to us.

Houston, Pringle & Pat Mesiti (The Infamous Trinit-eretics)

This is another old article from the old Signposts that Lance posted up. Since Hillsong London invited Pat Mesiti to speak last month, people have expressed interest in me to do some more searching. There are a few old transcripts from both Hillsong and C3 that I will be putting up over the next few months. Feel free to quote them and pass them around. I don’t mind if no one responds to them either. I am posting them up so people can see what is often taught at these churches.

Below is an old  transcript of Pringle introducing Pat Mesiti to speak at Christian City Church in 2006:

Pat Mesiti’s restoration

Monday 04 September, 2006 – 16:55 by Hill$ong Squad in Default

…

Christian City Church || Oxford Falls || 19, February, 2006 || 6pm Sunday service

Phil Pringle: http://202.125.166.74/ramgen/ccc/1902066pm.rm

“I know a lot of you were not in this morning’s service…and I need your attention ….I need your full attention people…I need you to be looking this way ..and listening….thank you very much.

Because this morning I made an announcement – and in last night’s service, that I need to make again and.. it’s a great announcement… a very joyful announcement.

About four-and-a-half years ago …there was an evangelist in this country by the name of Pat Mesiti.

Most of you I think will know of him. Some of you may not.

He had a television program and was regularly conducting crusades where through 500 to1500 people would come to Christ. He was an initiator of many great youth programs, including Youth Alive here in New South Wales.. and accomplished a huge number of things for the nation.. in the realm of evangelism and touching people’s lives with the gospel.

However, four-and-a-half years ago, Pat had a terrible, terrible tumble. A moral collapse which resulted in his marriage breaking.. and.. was a sad moment. He was taken out of ministry and stepped down.

He was an ordained minister in the Assemblies of God and after attempting to retrace.. recover.. and after a year…it seemed it wasn’t going quite how it was anticipated.

So Brian Houston and myself.. who are good friends.. I said, ‘Look. I’ll put my hand up. I’d like to help. And I’ve known Pat forever. And he’s good friends with a lot of the people on this staff.. and has been.. and I thought this’d be great if he came.. and was in our church…and we would seek to see him standing on his feet again.

A number of years ago.. I said to the Lord.. ‘I’m so busy being a pastor, I don’t feel like I’m being a Christian.’

And that just meant I was so busy leading and preaching, doing all the stuff I wanted… I felt like…going and handing out pizzas to the homeless in Hyde Park.. or visiting people in old folks’ homes or reading books… or people in prison.

I’ve done all that.. and used to teach in a school for handicapped children and I go and visit prisons …just tell them to send up a prisoner if they didn’t have a visitor and I’d be there. And they didn’t know me. So when you get to be a pastor, you get a lot of other things going on ..

But He said to me, ‘No you’ve got a church full of people who can do that’……so I pray you do it man…

And He said, ‘No. No. No. What I want you to do is reach out to people that other people can’t reach out to.. And that’s pastors who are having troubled times.

And so I try to do that. And there’s a few.. who.. I have no judgements on men and women who’ve found their life in trouble. Who knows what pressures they’re facing and what things they’ve gone through.. but I do know they need to be recovered and restored.

And there is a pathway for that… repentance… restoration… restitution.. and making things right.

So Pat came….and I said to him, ‘Pat. I want you to do several things. One: turn up to church.’

And even with the shame and the awkwardness and the emotional difficulty of all that, I said, ‘That’s what you’ve gotta do’. Because the church is the best place you can be, rather than a counselling room. Just being in the worship, being in the local church, being involved in some ministry of serving in the House.. all of those things are the best healing processes you will ever find yourself engaged in.. because you’re forced to modify your behaviour and get things right and overcome …and all kinds of things….and relate to people.

And then just [let] the Spirit of God working amongst us..

I believe in the power of the local church. It is the most powerful thing on earth to actually affect all sorts of things in people’s lives.

So Pat did that. And one year after his marriage had broke, he met a lady called Andrea and I was happy to participate in their marriage.. three.. two-and-a-half years ago.. two years ago? Two years ago. And that was a really joyful occasion.

And Pat and Andrea served in the visitors’ lounge, helping us there and have continued to be involved in our church over that time.

And he’s been relating to Greg French, Simon McIntyre, Mark Kelsey and myself over that period of time.

We’ve had times where we’ve needed to say things or help him understand things or whatever.. and Pat has been exemplary in all his ways of handling it.

I have tried this with a number of ministers and leaders over the years and I’ve got to say not without a lot of success.

It’s been unfortunate because people find it difficult.. find it tough to recover.. old steps.

But Pat has really displayed a repentant attitude and a commitment to a pathway that will bring him fully back into that way.

And the ministry team.. we’ve all talked to each other and quite satisfied that he has fulfilled all those obligations.

The Assemblies of God asked him to do three years of restoration. It’s actually been four-and-a-half years now that he has been out of ministry and as I said, we are happy [about] that.

So in the 10 o’clock service this morning, we laid hands on Pat and Andrea and restored them to the ministry that God has called them to. (Applause)

In those services.. well actually, only in the 10 o’clock services, I asked Pat just to share something briefly and he did. And so I said, ‘I want you to share in that service just briefly. But what I really want you to do is preach in our church on Sunday night’.

So I want you to welcome Pat Mesiti as he comes…” (applause/cheering/Mesiti hugs Pringle)

 

Pat Mesiti’s restoration

Monday 04 September, 2006 – 16:55 by Hill$ong Squad in Default

views (725) | rating (0 votes)

Christian City Church || Oxford Falls || 19, February, 2006 || 6pm Sunday service

 

Phil Pringle: http://202.125.166.74/ramgen/ccc/1902066pm.rm

“I know a lot of you were not in this morning’s service…and I need your attention ….I need your full attention people…I need you to be looking this way ..and listening….thank you very much.

Because this morning I made an announcement – and in last night’s service, that I need to make again and.. it’s a great announcement… a very joyful announcement.

About four-and-a-half years ago …there was an evangelist in this country by the name of Pat Mesiti.

Most of you I think will know of him. Some of you may not.

He had a television program and was regularly conducting crusades where through 500 to1500 people would come to Christ. He was an initiator of many great youth programs, including Youth Alive here in New South Wales.. and accomplished a huge number of things for the nation.. in the realm of evangelism and touching people’s lives with the gospel.

However, four-and-a-half years ago, Pat had a terrible, terrible tumble. A moral collapse which resulted in his marriage breaking.. and.. was a sad moment. He was taken out of ministry and stepped down.

He was an ordained minister in the Assemblies of God and after attempting to retrace.. recover.. and after a year…it seemed it wasn’t going quite how it was anticipated.

So Brian Houston and myself.. who are good friends.. I said, ‘Look. I’ll put my hand up. I’d like to help. And I’ve known Pat forever. And he’s good friends with a lot of the people on this staff.. and has been.. and I thought this’d be great if he came.. and was in our church…and we would seek to see him standing on his feet again.

A number of years ago.. I said to the Lord.. ‘I’m so busy being a pastor, I don’t feel like I’m being a Christian.’

And that just meant I was so busy leading and preaching, doing all the stuff I wanted… I felt like…going and handing out pizzas to the homeless in Hyde Park.. or visiting people in old folks’ homes or reading books… or people in prison.

I’ve done all that.. and used to teach in a school for handicapped children and I go and visit prisons …just tell them to send up a prisoner if they didn’t have a visitor and I’d be there. And they didn’t know me. So when you get to be a pastor, you get a lot of other things going on ..

But He said to me, ‘No you’ve got a church full of people who can do that’……so I pray you do it man…

And He said, ‘No. No. No. What I want you to do is reach out to people that other people can’t reach out to.. And that’s pastors who are having troubled times.

And so I try to do that. And there’s a few.. who.. I have no judgements on men and women who’ve found their life in trouble. Who knows what pressures they’re facing and what things they’ve gone through.. but I do know they need to be recovered and restored.

And there is a pathway for that… repentance… restoration… restitution.. and making things right.

So Pat came….and I said to him, ‘Pat. I want you to do several things. One: turn up to church.’

And even with the shame and the awkwardness and the emotional difficulty of all that, I said, ‘That’s what you’ve gotta do’. Because the church is the best place you can be, rather than a counselling room. Just being in the worship, being in the local church, being involved in some ministry of serving in the House.. all of those things are the best healing processes you will ever find yourself engaged in.. because you’re forced to modify your behaviour and get things right and overcome …and all kinds of things….and relate to people.

And then just [let] the Spirit of God working amongst us..

I believe in the power of the local church. It is the most powerful thing on earth to actually affect all sorts of things in people’s lives.

So Pat did that. And one year after his marriage had broke, he met a lady called Andrea and I was happy to participate in their marriage.. three.. two-and-a-half years ago.. two years ago? Two years ago. And that was a really joyful occasion.

And Pat and Andrea served in the visitors’ lounge, helping us there and have continued to be involved in our church over that time.

And he’s been relating to Greg French, Simon McIntyre, Mark Kelsey and myself over that period of time.

We’ve had times where we’ve needed to say things or help him understand things or whatever.. and Pat has been exemplary in all his ways of handling it.

I have tried this with a number of ministers and leaders over the years and I’ve got to say not without a lot of success.

It’s been unfortunate because people find it difficult.. find it tough to recover.. old steps.

But Pat has really displayed a repentant attitude and a commitment to a pathway that will bring him fully back into that way.

And the ministry team.. we’ve all talked to each other and quite satisfied that he has fulfilled all those obligations.

The Assemblies of God asked him to do three years of restoration. It’s actually been four-and-a-half years now that he has been out of ministry and as I said, we are happy [about] that.

So in the 10 o’clock service this morning, we laid hands on Pat and Andrea and restored them to the ministry that God has called them to. (Applause)

In those services.. well actually, only in the 10 o’clock services, I asked Pat just to share something briefly and he did. And so I said, ‘I want you to share in that service just briefly. But what I really want you to do is preach in our church on Sunday night’.

So I want you to welcome Pat Mesiti as he comes…” (applause/cheering/Mesiti hugs Pringle)

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For The Sake Of Integrity… We Bring to You Revival Roulette

This was an article emailed to me. Todd Bentley messaged friends on Facebook:

In April of 2008, within the first few weeks of Lakeland Bob Jones and myself were having a conversation by phone where we were both shown 12 cities where the Outpouring would begin breaking out igniting the fires of Revival. We understand and celebrate the many places that Revival is breaking out across America and throughout the world, but this is just our part of what we were shown.

The first city was Charlotte, NC. On April 23rd, a “Breakout” began at Rick Joyner’s MorningStar Fellowship Church, which lasted 7 months. During these 7 months, they hosted meetings 6 nights a week with many notable and remarkable miracles each night. The second city I was shown was Kansas City, MO. Many of you are familiar with the “Student Awakening” at IHOP and what has happened there.

Below is an excerpt from a Panel Discussion between Rick Joyner and myself during the MorningStar Open Heavens Conference this past February.

“In a recent meeting here, just a small gathering, God spoke to me (Todd Bentley). He said, “Ohio.” And I gave a word of knowledge and I said, “Is there anyone here from Ohio? There is an impartation. Revival is coming to Ohio.” There were about 20 people in this one meeting that were all from Ohio and the amazing thing was it was not one group of people from Ohio, but several groups with no connection to one another. I said, “Why would so many people at one time come to this one particular meeting all from Ohio and with many of them not even knowing each other?” I said, “God You are speaking to me about Ohio.” And people began asking me, “What city in Ohio?”

Both Rick Joyner and I have been shown separate visions about not one city, but 12 cities in America that would become Revival Hubs. Rick actually published an article in 1992, titled; “The Twelve City Prophecy” based on an encounter that he had on February 6, 1989. This article was published in the MorningStar Journal Vol. 2, No. 3 and again in Vol. 11, No. 1. The interesting part of what we both saw was there was no particular city highlighted in Ohio, but the entire city of Ohio was set ablaze with the fires of Revival.

In recent years, I have had a reoccurring vision where I saw William Branham baptizing thousands in the Ohio River with thousands more on it’s banks. Through this vision, God spoke to me about the revelation and healing mantle of the 1940’s and 1950’s being rediscovered at the Ohio River and in the surrounding areas, but remember in the visions that Rick and I had we saw all of Ohio burning, not just one city.

This is another excerpt taken from the Panel Discussion (referenced above) between Rick and myself during the MorningStar Open Heavens Conference this past February.

“Ohio was the only state God did not give us (Todd speaking of his conversation with bob in April of 2008) a city for. And I wondered about that. Every other city is a city and state, but all God said was “Ohio.” Now the Lord did say Lakeland, Florida, and it happened. The Lord did say, Charlotte, and it happened. The Lord did say, Kansas City, MO and it is happening. And then the Lord said, “Ohio.” There were so many places burning in Ohio that God was moving in the entire state in so many churches and so many different cities in Ohio at one time that there was no specific city highlighted.”

I did write down for documentation a few things about that prophecy. And one thing that Bob said was, “The third wave has begun.” This wave will promote, prepare, purify, pierce, and inspire. We can expect to be changed. The voice of healing move of the Spirit years ago is now here for a second time and will not be stopped. It is a major healing move.”

In Lakeland, I was given a promise of how the ark of God and Revival would be carried from city to city. This fire would be transferrable. It would be a tangible fire. People could take it back to their nation and their city. In praying for this conference (Open Heavens, referenced above), the Lord began to have me revisit the original prophetic promise of the 12 cities that I was given with Bob in April of 2008. He said, “Do you remember that word?” I said, “Yes Lord.” He said, “That word is now. This 12-city promise is for now. You need to fire it up again, and you need to focus specifically on praying for people from Ohio and keep prophesying Ohio. Watch Ohio. Because as it breaks there, it is going to begin to break in many other cities.”

Here are the 12 cities that I was given in April 2008:

1. Lakeland/Orlando, Florida (Lakeland Outpouring)
2. Charlotte, NC (“Breakout” happened at MorningStar)
3. Kansas City, MO (Student Awakening)
4. Ohio
5. Atlanta, GA
6. Des Moines, Iowa
7. Omaha and Lincoln, Nebraska
8. Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX
9. Denver, CO
10. Nashville, TN
11. Portland/Albany, OR
12. Seattle, WA
I thought, God why did you name all of these specific cities, but when it
came to Ohio the promise was “Ohio?” After this, I was speaking with Bob Jones and I said, “Bob I think we need to release this.” And Bob said, “Did you know
Bonnie had an angelic encounter March 1 and the Lord came to her and spoke
to her about Ohio?” And I said, “Really?” “In fact Todd, you didn’t know
this, but just today Bonnie came to me and asked me if Ohio was one of the
12 cities. And now you are coming to me with Ohio.”

About this time, Rick joined the conversation, and shared how he had published a similar encounter called the 12-city prophecy. Now, I had never read or heard of this prophecy prior to this conversation. Rick shared how in regards to Ohio, “in the vision I saw an actual map of the U.S. with these cities marked as points. I did not know all of the cities and had to look them up on an Atlas.” I have a question mark by Columbus, Ohio which I do in this article because I actually saw the entire state of Ohio being highlighted, and I put down Columbus with a question mark because it is kind of in the center and I thought maybe it would be centered there.
But I got the same thing, the entire state of Ohio. There is something
about that. You are going to see something remarkable happen in Ohio.

For the sake of integrity, below is a list of the 12 cities that Rick saw in his February 6, 1989 encounter. Again, we understand and celebrate the many places that Revival is breaking out across America and throughout the world, but these visions and interpretations are just our part of what we have been shown. We pray for Revival to break out in every city of America and throughout the world. You will notice that in Rick’s vision there were several cities that he saw that I didn’t see and several that I saw that he didn’t, but the core cities and areas are consistent.

Excerpt taken from the MorningStar Journal Vol. 2 No. 3:
“In the vision, I saw circles drawn around each of these cities that I later estimated to be about 1,000 miles in diameter or to have a radius of 500 miles. I then estimated that over 98% of the population of the US was within 500 miles of at least one of these cities or a one-day drive. These cities are strategically located according to the population centers.”

The 12 cities that Rick saw in his vision were (those that have question marks by them were those Rick was not given an exact city, but am area):
1. Albany, NY
2. Atlanta, GA
3. Columbus, OH
4. Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX
5. Denver, CO
6. Kansas City, MO
7. Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN
8. Orlando, FL
9. Phoenix, AZ
10. Portland, OR
11. Santa Maria, CA
12. Washington, D.C.
*For more information on Rick’s 12-city prophecy you can order the MSJ 2.3 or 11.1 from MorningStar by calling 1(800) 542-0278. Both issues contain his article and the wisdom he was given in its entirety.

As a part of our FreshFireUSA Healing & the Kingdom Tour along with our Ministry Mandate, we will be planning regional Revival Breakthrough services in many of these cities and others. Please join us for our next Healing & the Kingdom Meetings Nov. 3-6 in Cincinnati (Milford), OH as we contend for Revival in Ohio!

*There is a $20 registration for this event that gives you a wristband, providing:
1.Admission to the 10am services
2.Preferred Seating
3.Early Admission to the evening meetings (Registered guests doors open at 5:45)
4.20% Discount off any regularly priced items at the Sound of Fire Book table

NIGHT MEETINGS WILL BE FREE AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC

The mornings will be a dedicated time of teaching with a focus on keys to ministering the Gospel of the Kingdom, including:
-Birthing and Cultivating a Revival Culture within your Ministry, Church & City
-How to Move in Kingdom Authority and Power
-Preaching the Gospel with Accompanying Signs and Wonders
-Healing the Sick, Working of Miracles, the Gift of Faith & Keys to Ministering the Word of Knowledge

The evening services will be a time dedicated to ministering to the sick that are in need of miracles and healing with a focus on personal ministry.
If you have a call to the ministry of healing, miracles, signs & wonders you do not want to miss this event! Whether you are ministering in the marketplace or in the nations, this event will equip you and empower you to see a greater demonstration of the healing and miracle working power of God in your life and the lives of those around you. If you are a Pastor and you desire this ministry to begin functioning or function in a greater capacity in your local church, we invite you to bring some members of your leadership team or church group as well.
If you would like more information about becoming a host city of The Healing & the Kingdom Tour along with Regional Revival and Breakthrough Services, please send us an email at info@freshfireusa.com. We pray over every ministry request that comes in and are looking for those to partner with in seeing the Lord’s Kingdom come and the fires of Revival ignite the heart of this great nation once again!

Yours In the Harvest,
Todd Bentley

The Ethics of teaching Scripture

From a recent article in the Sydney Morning Herald:

But the experience taught me a number of things. Firstly, people’s belief systems are changeable but this process is complicated and is usually triggered by introspective interrogation and critical thinking, not by external correction and imposition of views.

Secondly, some people will always place more importance on faith than on facts. And this is their prerogative to do so.

Thirdly, young children may forever be asking questions about the world, but most of them will blindly believe whatever the authority figures in their lives tell them.

And this is precisely why it is unethical to indoctrinate children through religious direction.

That is not to say that children cannot be introduced to the concept of religion (and the fact that there are many many religions in the world — none of which have universal support and all of which have attracted considerable criticism). Nor does it mean that children cannot be introduced to ethical frameworks for decision making.

But surely it is important that we nurture children’s critical thinking and reasoning capacities rather than simply telling them to unquestionably accept what they are told?

From ‘Teach kids how to think, not what to believe’ by Nina Funnell, SMH October 22, 2010

The author asserts that ethics classes, recently trialed in NSW schools, teach children how to think, whereas ‘moralising sermons’ ‘strictly dictate right from wrong’.

My son is attending Anglican scripture classes at his public school. I don’t have much of an idea of what is taught; at his stage it seems to be fairly basic bible stories with the moral framework pointed out, including honouring God, honouring parents and treating other people with kindness. Perhaps the way these things are taught depends on the teacher as much as the curriculum.

I assume that at some point he will ask questions about it all for himself. Since he’ll be at a state school, he’ll be surrounded by other kids who don’t necessarily believe what his family does, and he’ll be bound to be challenged in that environment.

I am interested in the author’s point about teaching kids to think, rather than indoctrinating them. Many of us who comment on this site have experienced church environments where certain types of questioning are discouraged. Or at least, where you may be regarded as rebellious if you aren’t convinced by the answers you are given. You are ‘negative’ or heretical (depending upon the environment) if your conclusions don’t conform and this disturbs you strongly enough to be vocal about it or leave. There is strong social pressure to conform, and a price to pay if you do not. Of course this isn’t isolated to religious groups. Political groups are very similar. Even workplaces.

Is indoctrination then something we should be concerned about when it comes to religious education in schools for our children? Or is the author wrong to assume that this is what happens in religious education classes?

************************
RavingPente

Same Tingles With Pringles New Jingles

Phil Pringle is Officially In People’s Pockets and Handbags!

Oh dear God! Nooo! None can escape the voice of Pringle now! Let his words wash over your mind as you listen to soothing promises…

From: http://techpastor.wordpress.com/2010/10/08/the-promises-iphone-app-that-builds-faith/

The Promises – iPhone app that builds faith

You gotta love an iPhone app created by the head of your movement which is specifically designed to help you, build your faith and aid in remembering Scripture.  This is it!

It’s a simple app that does exactly that.  Hit the Next button or swipe the screen for another verse,  hit the play button down the bottom to hear Ps Phil Pringle vocalise the verse.  It’s powerful because ‘faith comes by hearing the word’ (Romans 10:17) and by listening to the verse your faith is built up!  For those in C3, this is awesome to hear the President and founder of our movement vocalise powerful scripture into our lives.

Get it.  Search for ‘The Promises’ on the App Store on your iPhone or iTunes and whack it on your Home screen for daily use.  Get these promises into you for a bigger, faith filled future.  Only $1.19 too.

From: http://www.zdnetasia.com/downloads/mobile/the-promises_sw-39962452.htm

Publisher’s description

THE POWER TO TRANSFORM PROMISES FROM GOD A POCKET GUIDE OF SCRIPTURES TO PRAY SPEAK THINK WRITE — PROMISES from God by Ps Phil Pringle, founder of C3 International, is now on the iPhone and iPod touch. Features: * Navigate through more than 40 promises from God. * Listen to Ps Phil Pringle read the promise aloud. * Shake your iPhone or iPod touch to go to a random promise. — Youll be clothed with power. Youll walk in dominion. In victory. Youll conquer those things trying to conquer you. Youll defeat demons and heal sickness. Youll be part of the answer, not part of the problem. Youll find the power that makes you more like Christ. Youll have real solutions for the world you live in. —

From: http://www.iapper.com/the-promises-reference/

The Promises (Reference)

Oct.05, 2010 in New iPhone Apps, Reference

The Promises 1

Category: Reference
Price: $.99, Version: 1 (iTunes)

Description:

THE POWER TO TRANSFORM PROMISES FROM GOD

A POCKET GUIDE OF SCRIPTURES TO PRAY SPEAK THINK WRITE

—

PROMISES from God by Ps Phil Pringle, founder of C3 International, is now on the iPhone and iPod touch.

Features:

* Navigate through more than 40 promises from God.
* Listen to Ps Phil

Pringle read the promise aloud.
* Shake your iPhone or iPod touch to go to a random promise. —

You’ll be clothed with power. You’ll walk in dominion. In victory. You’ll conquer those things trying to conquer you. You’ll defeat demons and heal sickness. You’ll be part of the answer, not part of the problem. You’ll find the power that makes you more like Christ.

You’ll have real solutions for the world you live in.

—

The Promises

Diploma Mills & Doctorate Dills?

If you are concerned about your spiritual health, you’d be concerned who you’d consider to be your spiritual doctor…

About Phil Pringle’s Doctorate

You can see Phil Pringle promote his credentials here in his own College ‘School of Creative Arts’ prospectus below. Click to view the attachment:

Phil Pringle’s Credentials (pg 15)

“Dr Phil Pringle, OAM
Founder and President of Christian
City Church International

CERTIFICATE IV & DIPLOMA >
Faith + Lessons from The Book of Acts + Leadership
> Founder and President of the Christian City Church International – founded in 1980 with 12 members
in a Surf Club, CCC has since grown to a worldwide movement of over 100 congregations and over 25,000 members
> Senior Minister of CCC Oxford Falls – membership 3,500+
> National President of the Australian Pentecostal Ministers Fellowship
> International Director on Dr David Yonggi Cho’s Church Growth International Board (Yoido Full Gospel Church,
Seoul, Korea)
> Awarded the Order of Australia Medal by Queen Elizabeth II in 2001 for his service to the community
> Awarded a PhD by New Covenant International University in 1999, achieved by thesis on the Book of Acts, following a Masters by thesis on Church Growth
> Much-sought-after speaker internationally”

At the back of the prospectus the disclaimer says:

“Disclaimer – All details contained in this brochure are true and correct at the time of printing.”

___________________________________________

He promotes his doctorate here too: http://www.philpringlegallery.com/bio.html

In 2000 the Government of Australia awarded him the Order of Australia Medal for services to the community and he has earned a Doctorate in Biblical Philosophy. Dr Pringle has also authored more than ten books and is a sought after international speaker.

___________________________________________

(Phil Pringle is on the CMN Board with the president of the ‘New Covenant International University’. The President of the New Covenant International University, is ‘Dr’ Kevin Dyson.)

This information is from http://www.cmnworld.com/about/leadership:

CMN Ministry Board

• Bishop Dale C. Bronner – Atlanta. Sr. Pastor/founder Word of Faith Church, Chairman – Bronner Brothers Corp., CMN.
• Dr. Robert Barriger – Lima, Peru. Sr. Pastor – Camino De Vida Church, national church leader, director of “Red de Hombres” (CMN) for Latin America.
• Eddy Leo -
• Dr. Rod Anderson – London. Co-founder with wife Julie of international prayer ministry, “Prayer for the Nations”.
• Rv. John Arana, Jr. – Arlington, Texas. Sr. Pastor/founder of Center Point Church. Author, motivator, missionary.
• Mr. Glenn Bollinger – Dallas. CEO, Alliance Sports Group, multi-national corporation. Secy. – CMN Board.
• Rev. Joel Brooks, Jr. – Kalamazoo, Michigan. Sr. Pastor/founder Christian Life Center. Author, church planter.
• Dr. Kevin Dyson – Central Coast, Australia. President/founder New Covenant University – international college.
• Dr. Jim Garlow – San Diego. Sr. Pastor Skyline Church. Best-selling author, speaker.
• Dr. Phil Pringle – Sydney, Australia Sr. Pastor C3 Church. President – C3 Churches International.
• Rev. Doug Stringer – Houston. Founder Turning Point Ministries and Somebody Cares, international compassion.

Guess what the address is to this place?

7255, Military Tr, Lake Worth, FLORIDA. Went to Google maps. There’s no ‘New Covenant International University’. Instead you stumble across an academy: Trinity Christian Academy. (Drag image to URL, to see bigger image.)

The address given of this place can be found here: http://epayroll.nasa.gov/documents/fppsTables/Colleges_Universities.txt?keepThis=true&TB_iframe=true

___________________________________________

This is their website: http://www.tcalw.org/

You can see that this is the correct institute from google maps because they have photos of the construction site of their new buildings on both google maps and their website. But after browsing endlessly on their church and the TCA website, there is no mention of New Covenant University, New Covenant International University or Kevin Dyson.

But this site may offer some information: http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Name-It-and-Frame-It%3F

Name It and Frame It? is a 1993 book by Steve Levicoff about Christian schools. He explores the accreditation process, good and bad institutions of higher learning. This work has four different editions, which contain updated information and responses from various groups. In the preface of the third edition Levicoff wrote about the book, “administrators at legitimately accredited Christian schools loved it, but the operators of degree mills weren’t too pleased.”

There are some very impressive ministry college names in the list in his book. The one that caught my eye was, ‘New Covenant International Theological Seminary‘, which is supposedly located in Honolulu, Hawaii. Thank you Steve Levicoff!

___________________________________________

Just to be sure this was the institute, I checked out the New Covenant International Theological Seminary: http://www.newcovenant.edu/index.php?page=home.

Read the ‘About Us’ here (Emphasis mine): http://www.newcovenant.edu/index.php?page=about-us2&PHPSESSID=e001e896d3b1d9ca604838def87de407.

HISTORY & BIBLICAL FOCUS

NCI was founded in Auckland, New Zealand in 1978 as a logical outgrowth of the recognition that all members of the local church body need appropriate forms and levels of training and equipping to be able to effectively do the work of serving those around them, as well as those in other nations.

In 1990 NCIU was incorporated in the United States as an independent, self-governing corporation where it remains to this day. NCI was established in relationship with the apostolic oversight of a local assembly of Christian believers at Lake Worth, Florida, as well as other ministry leaders from a broad spectrum. NCIU is a “user focused” institution that exists to serve the needs of the end-users, not simply to perpetuate knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Our chief end is to glorify God and Him alone in all that we do.

It is widely known that many fully engaged leaders and adults with careers, families and community involvement— with busy lives— often desire to further their education and be better equipped for their chosen task of Christian service, regardless of their vocational location.

To these people, NCI University & Theological Seminary offers an enriching learning experience that allows them to fit much needed education into their lives, rather than forcing them to fit their lives into education.

NCIU acknowledges that the local body of Christian believers and its community of members remain the primary place for planting and nurturing of biblical, foundational truth and meaningful spiritual experiences through what is termed “the Disciple-making Process”.

The “Disciple-making Process,” which is God’s prime weapon for extending His ever-increasing, unshakable kingdom throughout the nations and people groups of the entire earth, may take place within recognized structures or spontaneous, organic groups in the marketplace and beyond. The new life of faith needs to grow where it happens!

The necessity of this pivotal practice is under-scored by NCIU in the development and provision of appropriate foundation and disciple-making materials, such as are found in the Resources section of this website.

In the technology-driven twenty first century with the worldwide Internet providing adult learners with a more convenient global-focused education, this process is a basic task. The challenge, however, for NCI University & Theological Seminary is to make sure that this ‘convenience factor’ keeps technology as our servant and not our master. It also provides the global vehicle for us to be able to jointly engage in a genuine, educational, intellectually challenging and spiritually enriching experience.

It is because of the commitment to maintaining this academic standard and practical spiritual development that NCI University & Theological Seminary is able to provide culturally relevant and meaningful distance-learning, higher education programs, establishing it amongst the more innovative Christian institutions of higher learning.

NCI University & Theological Seminary also works alongside a number of campus-based Christian education providers on the five main continents and gives special recognition to their validated programs as equal components of the total learning requirements to receive specified, academic awards for religious, vocational purposes.

Go to this websites contact page: http://www.newcovenant.edu/index.php?page=contact

You will find and address and map (address sound familiar?). Click the image below to see the screen grab of where the map says this ‘University’ is. (Drag image to URL, to see bigger image.)

Enter this address into Google maps and you will find  this familiar location. (Drag image to URL, to see bigger image.)

It’s the same place. No university. The university’s information is wrong when it says, “In 1990 NCIU was incorporated in the United States as an independent, self-governing corporation where it remains to this day”.

___________________________________________

I quickly went over to this site to check if NCI University & Theological Seminary should be indeed considered a diploma mill: http://www.elearners.com/guide/online-colleges-universities-and-schools/diploma-mills/.

How can I tell if a school is a diploma mill?

• They often have names similar to well-known colleges or universities, but fail to mention an accrediting agency or name a fake accrediting agency.
• The organization frequently changes addresses, sometimes moving from state to state.
• Written materials typically include numerous spelling and grammatical errors, sometimes on the diploma itself.
• Overemphasis on the speed and brevity with which someone can receive a degree (e.g. “Call now and have your degree shipped to you overnight!”).
• Degrees can be earned in far less time than normal (e.g. 27 days) or the diploma is printed with a specific backdate.
• There is no selectivity in admissions, or any questions about previous test scores or detailed academic history.
• No interaction with professors or faculty (e.g. only two emails are received from a professor).
• Degree requirements are vague or unspecified, lacking class descriptions and without any mention of how many credit hours are required to complete a program.
• Tuition and fees are typically on a per-degree basis.
• Grade point average (GPA) and academic honors (e.g. Summa Cum Laude) can be specified at the time of purchase.

____________________________________________

Finally, I found this comment made by Lionfish on Groupsects:

“Dr Phil (Pringle) “earned” his doctorate from New Covenant International University in Florida writing a book about Acts.

Note that even on his own site he does not quote the Institution from where he “earned”” this qualification: Source: http://www.philpringlegallery.com/bio.html

Here is the website for this institution: http://www.newcovenant.edu/ (note the low number of visitors to the site and the ‘sprawling campus at this address: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=7255+South+Military+Trail+Lake+Worth,+33463-7899+USA&sll=37.509726,-95.712891&sspn=38.626676,93.164063&ie=UTF8&ll=26.569491,-80.111275&spn=0.042912,0.090981&z=14

There are a number of well researched sources that document that New Covenant International University is yet another diploma mill.

“This is a legal religious educational institution in the state of Florida in the USA. The Florida Statutes 1005.6 (f) states that, “A religious college may operate without governmental oversight”.

That means you can start up an university to teach black magic in Florida as long as the rules in Statutes 1005.6 is followed. You can give out Ph.D in Voodoo or Ph.D in Bomoh, if you like. Though being legally instituted by the state of Florida, that alone does not guarantee the recognition of the institution’s degrees in other states of the USA and other countries. Such recognition comes through ‘accreditation’. That means the master’s degrees and doctorates provided by institutions which are accredited and those which are not are qualitatively different.

The accreditation body that guarantees the quality of higher education in Florida is the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. Theological seminaries and Christian universities like Asbury Theological Seminary and Baylor University are accredited by the body. And New Covenant International University & Theological Seminary is not in the accreditation list.

Simply said, those without accreditation is free to grant degrees without ensuring academic competency and so the certificates are not recognized. The implication is that those people who got their degrees and doctorates from unaccredited institutions cannot use the title “Dr.” in their referent, or even if they use it, it is a fake “Dr.”, like calling a woman without a child under her care as “mother”.

Now you may be wondering why am I highlighting the New Covenant International University & Theological Seminary. That is because the institution’s president Kevin Dyson was here earlier this year giving a series of talks on relationship at City Harvest Church. And lo and behold, our local charismatic Kong Hee’s Master of Divinity (M.Div) and Doctor of Theology (D.Th) are from Dyson’s institution. If he really wants a good quality theological education degree, he can get them from local seminaries and theological colleges. There are plenty which are accredited here. Don’t have to get from a dubious institution in Florida. But if he prefer overseas degrees, he should opt for places like Asbury or Baylor”. Source: http://szezeng.blogspot.com/2009/12/new-covenant-international-university.html

In summary:

1: Be wary of any Doctorate earned in the US – especially Florida. 2: Do your own research
3: Ask for a copy of Dr Phil’s transcript and ask any University in Australia whether they would recognize it
3: Be extremely wary of anything a megachurch Pastor tells you!

Kind regards,

RJM – Lionfish”

• So Phil Pringle for the last few years has been asking his staff and students to call him Dr Phil.
• Pringle has used his ‘Doctorate’ to promote and advertise his ministry and ministry colleges.
• Phil Pringle is on a board of members where he seems to know the president of the NCI University & Theological Seminary, Kevin Dyson.
• Kevin Dyson DID have an educational institution in Florida, which later moved off the property.
• Kevin Dyson also gave Kong Hee a Master’s and Doctorate in theology.

Maybe it is worth to take Steve Levicoff’s advice from his book, ‘Name It and Frame It’. If the book was released in 1993, it already exposes the sad credentials of Kong Hee. With Pringle it is more questionable. There is no sign whatsoever that the Seminary is now endorsed as an accredited educational facility. Since Pringle gained his doctorate in 1999, the chances are incredibly high that it is not legitimate.

What adds further weight to it’s illegitimacy is the fact that Pringle only promoted his credentials only a few times. The second time I found he used his doctorate credentials, he was too vague to explain where he got them, what he got them for and who gave them to him. Even if he knows his doctorate is meaningless, why would he not promote people to call him ‘Doctor’ anyway?

If anyone has any more information regarding this, please comment and source your information.

I will now be putting up Lances article on Danny Nalliah and his doctorate below for interested readers.

Did Warren Play The Piper?

Thanks Teddy for this! I think this is worth reading if you want to get an idea what the deal is with John Piper and Rick Warren:

RICK WARREN, LAVERNE ADAMS, AND CINDY TRIMM

By Ken Silva pastor-teacher on Oct 20, 2010 in Current Issues, Features, Rick Warren, Southern Baptist Convention, Word Faith

Apprising Ministries has been among the online apologetics and discernment ministries covering Piper-Warrengate.

It all began when Dr. John Piper made the dubious decision to feature Purpose Driven Pope Rick Warren, with his quite elastic orthodoxy and twistable multi-tranlation Play-Doh Bible, as a keynote speaker at the DG 2010 conference Think: The Life of the Mind & the Love of God.

You might remember that I told you e.g. in Decade of Destiny With Rick Warren that Purpose Driven Pope Rick Warren uveiled his Plan for Decade of Destiny and Challenges the Men of Saddleback where we find:

(Online source)

Interestingly enough this was also the day a book called Driven By Destiny: 12 Secrets to Unlock Your Future (DBD) was released; it was written by pastrix Dr. LaVerne Adams, a spiritually whacked Word Faith flake who also goes by the name:

(Online source)

Read more here at: http://apprising.org/2010/10/20/rick-warren-laverne-adams-and-cindy-trimm/:

The Hills Are Alive With The Sound of Nonsense

From http://onceuponacross.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-finally-got-sent-hillsong-video-that.html:

I Finally Got Sent A Hillsong Video That Proves They Preach The Gospel . . . NOT!!

To his credit Troy did take up my challenge that no one else has responded to. He went looking for a solid example of someone from Hillsong church preaching the Gospel. I had burdened Troy with the responsibility of substantiating his claim that:

I can assure you that I’ve been to Hillsong quite a few times and have heard the gospel accurately preached. Yes, including the mention of sin and the cross.

Most readers will be aware that I have a long list of grievances with Hillsong Church in Australia. Unlike the many grievances based on their financial practices, I have focussed on their understanding and proclamation of the Christian Gospel. Among my many grievances has been one that I didn’t think even Hillsong defenders would argue with – the necessity to preach repentance (you know, turning away from sin). In fairness to Hillsong it is difficult to preach repentance when you never talk about sin. Why do I think that even Hillsong defenders would not argue against this particular grievance? Because they affirm the necessity of repentance on Hillsong’s own doctrine statement which says:

We believe that in order to receive forgiveness and the ‘new birth’ we must repent of our sins, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and submit to His will for our lives.

So let’s take a look at the video Troy chose to support his claims and alleviate my fears. Pay close attention to Joel A’Bell’s focus on repentance in this video:

The Journey [Discovering Christianity] from Hillsong Church on Vimeo.
Troy, I have to ask why you would use that video to argue against what I have been saying? It actually affirms almost everything I’ve said. So much missing information I don’t know where to begin. Who is this God? Why do I need His forgiveness? What cross? Why did Jesus need to die that I can get this gift? Why do I need this gift? Why don’t I deserve it? What is this gift? etc etc

On a purely logical level it creates many more questions than it answers. But once again I’ll zero in on one point because it is a part of Hillsong’s own doctrine statement. The necessity of repentance from sin in order to receive salvation. Where in this video did Joel speak of our need to repent or turn away from our sinful life. Of course it is difficult for Joel to do this when he never even defines sin.

Come on Troy, I am not being a nit picking monster, this is basic Christianity! Instead of arguing with me over this why don’t you challenge the Hillsong leadership over this. The more this gets voiced the better the chance that they might repent and start preaching Christianity – which would be a wonderful blessing to their vast audience.

Hillsong London: The Theatre With Best Actors On Show

From http://www.ship-of-fools.com/mystery/2004/790.html:

790: Hillsong London, Mermaid Theatre, Puddle Dock, Blackfriars, London

Mystery Worshipper: Bethanyaa.
The church: Hillsong London, at the Mermaid Theatre, Puddle Dock, Blackfriars, London.
Denomination: An offshoot of Hillsong in Sydney, Australia, renowned for their contribution to worship music.
The building: A plain, office-block type building on top of Blackfriars Underground station, formerly used as a commercial theatre, now a conference centre with all the amenities. It was not well signposted from within the station (we used Exit 1) and had to cross a fairly busy road. No wheelchair access to the seats that I could see.
The church: The congregation was almost entirely in their twenties, approximately two-thirds white and one third black/Asian. I was one of the oldest people there at 36. The pastor looked about 40ish. There were sizeable contingents from Australia and South Africa, going by the enthusiastic cheers following their mention.
The neighbourhood: Nice to see central London so quiet on a Sunday.
The cast: Don’t know the name of the worship leader. Gary Clarke is the pastor. He didn”t introduce himself but I saw a photo of him in the introductory pack.

What was the name of the service?
10.00am Sunday service (the first of four meetings for the day).

How full was the building?
Almost completely full – a small section at the middle back was roped off and unused. Approximately 600 people.

Did anyone welcome you personally?
We joined the pre-service crowds in the foyer of the theatre. Kids’ church starts 5 minutes before the adult service, so there was some milling about. As we looked at leaflets, a young guy asked if he could help. When I said it was our first visit, he made sure we had a copy of all the booklets and leaflets. A friendly usher showed us to some spare seats.

Was your pew comfortable?
Very comfortable: a well-padded flip-up theatre seat with individual arm rests.

How would you describe the pre-service atmosphere?
Chaotic. Loud rock music blaring out and MTV-type collages flashing up on the large overhead screens as people were shown to their seats by ushers. The seats were mainly taken by 9.50am.

What were the exact opening words of the service?
There were no opening words. A new track started on the sound system, the worship group filed onto the stage one by one, took their places with their instruments and we launched into a song unknown to me.

What books did the congregation use during the service?
The pastor preached from The Message (a modern Bible translation), but said we could look up the passage in other versions if we preferred. All the song lyrics were projected onto large screens and were easily readable.

What musical instruments were played?
Five guitars (four electric, one acoustic), two keyboards, and two drummers (one strangely encased in a glass cubicle). A choir of a dozen or so at the back with a conductor, and six singers at the front around the acoustic guitarist who led the worship.

Did anything distract you?
A couple of whingy babies who were soon hushed. The temperature was perfect, the lighting muted. The laptop operator responsible for projecting song lyrics was having a bad day – there was some faltering on changing to the next verse, and he/she seemed to lose the plot during the sermon. The pastor seemed a little peeved at this.

Was the worship stiff-upper-lip, happy clappy, or what?
Worship music for the KERRANG! Generation. Felt very much like the Nine o’clock Sheffield service from the early 90s (I was involved in an offshoot in Chiswick). I’ve been to quieter rock concerts. Ear-blisteringly loud and lots of enthusiastic “Christian pogo-ing” on the spot. After a while it became monotonous as the worship songs were nondescript. I yearned for something quieter, slower and more conducive to allowing the Holy Spirit to direct proceedings. The worship group was technically excellent. They seemed to have practised to the point of polished slickness in a positive sense. There was no opportunity for the congregation to have any input, as this was very much led from the front.

Exactly how long was the sermon?
35 minutes. I thought the sermon had started after the singing, but we had a mini 10-minute sermon on finances and how God wants to prosper us even more this year and that we can create wealth – i.e. standard Word of Faith teaching. I had an attack of the giggles at one point: the pastor read 1 Timothy 6:17 (from, I think, the New Living Translation): “Tell those who are rich in this world not to be proud and not to trust in their money, which will soon be gone” – as the black buckets were being prepared to pass round for the tithes and offerings. No one else seemed to see the irony in this.

On a scale of 1-10, how good was the preacher?
5 – His speaking voice was relaxed and chatty. I couldn’t place his accent. It may have been New Zealand or toned-down Australian. There wasn’t much structure to what he was saying and I found it hard to connect the points. He walked across the stage a lot – he had an earpiece microphone on so no trailing leads, and on a couple of occasions said “Am I reaching you with this?” and “Does this make sense?”

In a nutshell, what was the sermon about?
The first 10 minutes involved graphs and charts showing what percentage of the offerings over the past four years had been used on salaries, venue costs, etc. No actual figures were given. He did say that the church currently employed 13 people and hoped to add a few more staff members soon. The main part was about “doing life with a sense of confidence”. He glanced in the direction of Hebrews 10:35, and then gave a New Agey series of soundbites and pop-psychology about “operating in a life-zone” and “impacting others successfully.” There was very little of the genuine gospel in it. I might as well have been at a motivational conference.

Which part of the service was like being in heaven?
The song finishing the meeting, “Here I am to worship”. Still very loud, but not racing. It seemed more focused on God himself, rather than on what he could do for us.

And which part was like being in… er… the other place?
The preaching. This was “another gospel” indeed. There was a prayer at the end that backsliders/unbelievers could pray to be reconciled to God. This made no mention of sin, repentance or forgiveness, just being “determined” to follow God.

What happened when you hung around after the service looking lost?
It was announced that coffee was served on the mezzanine floor so we followed the crowd. One girl rudely pushed past me to get out of the seats. Perhaps she heard there were biscuits on offer.

How would you describe the after-service coffee?
Good hot filter coffee or tea of various kinds including herbal, served in strong paper cups. No biscuits that I saw. A couple of people walked round with large flasks offering refills.

How would you feel about making this church your regular (where 10 = ecstatic, 0 = terminal)?
2 – The teaching was shallow in the main and had little basis in the Bible, with a definite New Age improve-your-life slant, although it did finish with saying that the key to our confidence is putting our trust in God. I felt the pastor was trying too hard to be hip and relevant to young people and hence didn’t give any “strong meat” from the Bible. I gather more serious biblical teaching happens at the Strand Palace Hotel on a weekday night, but each session costs £10. Altogether, it was so large that it felt anonymous. I felt as if I would have to make a determined effort to get more involved and be noticed if I were to stay. I picked up a home group directory – there are groups in all parts of London.

Did the service make you feel glad to be a Christian?
Yes – I was grateful that my roots are in God and his word, because it would have been very easy to get carried away by the noise and hype.

What one thing will you remember about all this in seven days’ time?
Two passing comments from the pastor: “What you do with £10 in your pocket shows what you would do with £1 million.” And: “If you go round criticizing and asking, ‘What’s in it for me?’ you become whinging, snivelling, grumbling, low-impact, high-maintenance Christians.”

Still Confused What The Emerging & Emergent Church Are?

This should help: