The Dr. Owuor Furore

His name has popped up in a few controversial emails I have received. He has spoken in Brisbane and around Northern Beaches, Sydney. His message: that impending tsunami disasters will be striking Australia, especially the East Coast.

From http://tenwaiting4jesus.podbean.com/2010/07/31/how-accurate-is-the-prophet-dr-owuor-just-listen-to-what-this-person-said/ (emphasis mine):

How accurate is the prophet Dr. Owuor? Just listen to what this person said!

Dr.Owuor visions

Posted by zoeguy on July 29, 2010 at 2:16 PM

The accuracy of Dr Owuor is second to none. i’ve never seen, watched, or heard anyone – anywhere or at any time – peg these natural disasters as well as doctor owuor. and i wont even get into the mass healings and calling rain down from a blue sky. truly a prophet of God.

He accurately predicted HAITI quake, CHILE Quake, Katrina, Samoa Tsunami and Quake A quake in Malawi he made it rain from the sky on command in 2005.

His accuracy seems 100% so far and that is one of the main tests of any prophet. (Close does NOT count when it comes to a prophet of God. Either you’re the “real thing” called by God and you get your info directly from the creator and it’s 100% accurate, or you are a false prophet talking about your own opinions, guesses, thoughts, etc.

The chances of him being accurate on all of these and all within 2 months and some within days coming to pass is null. Yet he did it. He would have had a better chance on winning the lottery many many times over.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1002645/pg9

(warning godlikeproductions web site is NOT Christian, I have gone there a few times to witness and give these warnings, Christians are not treated very well on that web site.)

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After I sent out few question about Dr.Owuors full vision regarding Korea war break, my connection christians sent the link regarding that they had simiar vision as well, below is comment and links: Below: from Christian

Brother Daniel: the comment about the post-rapture war was about Iran, he didn’t say if the war with Korea would be pre or post rapture, but I read a letter on 5 Doves that said many people in the korean church have had visions of the same thing, and said it would be pre-rapture. From what I remember the letter was a response to a vision about korean war, from someone who is friends with an intercessor in Korea who gave the report that others in the church there were being warned through visions, and she said that it would be first a smaller war this summer, then the rapture would happen and there would be a bigger war after.

vision from a war in Korea – Hands for Charity

http://www.hands-for-charity.de/index.php?page=vision-from-a-war-in-korea

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Elliot Hong (17 June 2010)

“Re: Jen, Had a Vision Last Night”

Dear Jen and Doves:

I’m a Korean-American and in contact with many prayer warriors in my homeland who are having similar visions and revelations from the Lord as you had. I’m hearing that it’ll occur very soon, but it’ll be a limited warfare for now rather than a full scale war, then the Rapture will follow within a short period. The full scale war will occur in late fall this year. Korea will play the important role for the Kingdom of God at the end time, and that’s why she will go through the trials once again. Please pray for the Korean Church.

In Love of Yeshua Elliot

Letters from vision here

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/june2010/ellioth617.htm

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Video of Dr Owuor Giving the Prophecy

…he is currently in South Korean warning churches in that country to repent their sins. He warned that there will be a second tragic Korean War unless people in South Korea repent. 1. Warship on the ocean will be attacked and sunk under the sea. 2. Missiles will accurately hit the target object (facility related to electricity distribution) and people running in panic. 3. War tanks marching on the street. (breaking out the War in Korea). Koreans are now being warned.

Prophecy of War coming to South korea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoT1dxVBhME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX_m313u-yU

(Both are the same)

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Right now I want to give you the gist of the message that God has been transmitting through Dr. Owuor.

It is a two-fold message.

* The first part states that God the Father has shown him, by specific visions under the open night sky, that the Lord Jesus Christ, Yeshua the Messiah, is about to return.

* The second part calls the congregation, the nation, and the world to repent of their sins and transgressions, as there is a very small window of time before the Lord returns to judge unrepentant sinners … and (this is the exciting part) to celebrate the greatest wedding feast in the history of the earth, the most important upcoming event on the Father’s calendar, the marriage of the Lamb of God.

http://www.squidoo.com/owuor

The below information is from the same source.I will be discussing this below. It’s important to see how Dr Owuor claims credibility as a prophet (emphasis mine):

THE MIGHTY VISITATION

The LORD GOD called Dr. Owuor when he was at the peak of his career in a Mighty Visitation of the Holy Spirit on the July 3, 2003. In that visitation, The LORD GOD appeared to him, and wrote for him Isaiah chapter 43 verses 11 and 1 (in this specific order), and HE physically touched Dr. Owuor’s mouth and lifted him up, took him into another room within his house and then left him there, from where he walked back to his bedroom. In October 2003, The Lord appeared to Dr. Owuor again, this time with Prophets Moses and Elijah on one side of the Ark of the New Covenant of The Lord GOD in heaven, while Daniel was on the other side of the Ark of the New Covenant of The Lord GOD. This was followed by another Mighty Visitation, in the same month at 3:26am in the morning when The Lord GOD presented to him the Rod of Moses (Rod of GOD). Furthermore, on April 2, 2004 between 2pm-4pm, The Lord appeared to him and presented John The Baptist on his right hand side and The Holy Spirit spoke to Dr. Owuor by voice instructing him to go warn the four corners of the earth to repent in Christ Jesus and prepare the way for the Second Coming of Christ, The Lamb of God. This was The LORD GOD’s commissioning statement to Dr. David Owuor. A statement that turned his life around and put him on the road to preach repentance.

These Mighty Visitations were followed by another one, in which The Lord lifted him up and took him into His Throne room in heaven in which He spoke with Dr. Owuor again By Voice and showed him the Holy Bible that is inside the Ark of the New Covenant of The Lord in God’s Throne room. Then lightening hit the Holy Bible three times inside the New Covenant of The Lord thereby causing a quake of the Ark of the New Covenant of The Lord in God’s Throne room. The Archangel then asked Dr. Owuor to pray and immediately he said “Father, I come to you with a lot of praise and thanksgiving in the Mighty Name of Christ Jesus. . .” Then the Glory of The Lord came through the Golden walkway and sat on the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the New Covenant. The place is most Holy causing the two Cherubim of Glory to bow behind the Throne room at which place Dr. Owuor saw the River of Life flowing into the main street of the New Jerusalem and the Tree of Life on both sides (Other things cannot be discussed at this time).

Ever since then, The Lord has repeatedly spoken and shown Dr. Owuor The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of The Lord and how they will take place. The Lord has commanded him to preach Repentance and Holiness and completely return to GOD in order to prepare the way for the Second Coming of The Lord. In meetings at which Dr. Owuor preaches, many signs and wonders are displayed by The Lord including the appearance of unique rainbows, the massive outpouring of the Holy Spirit that slays many people bringing healing and deliverance, the healing of the lame and crippled walk, cancers disappear and many other miracles. In so doing,

http://www.freecdtracts.com/endtimevision/DrOwour.htm

Over at http://2ww4.blogspot.com/ (from a blogger known as weatherbill – see comment http://signposts02.wordpress.com/2010/12/01/the-dr-owuor-furore/#comment-15979), it has been confirmed that these prophecies have been postponed:

Tuesday, February 10, 2009

IMPORTANT UPDATE FROM OCT 28TH 2010 – ***NEW AUGUST 2012 ALERT***

How Judgement on Sept 3rd was postponed 

The top links above are the pre-september 3rd details on record and how this judgement, backed by numerous amazing signs, was postponed because of The Call’s 14,000+ Christians gathered on September 3rd in Sacramento to fast, pray and humble themselves before the Lord and cry out for mercy. Ahhh, the power of prayer!
My accusers do not believe in it!

Here is a list of 17 different sources who had been given supernatural signs of this judgement that was to strike California. Thank God for his mercy!

THESE PROPHECIES ARE STILL APPLICABLE SIGNS OF WHATS TO COME QUITE POSSIBLY, COMING AUGUST 2012! see link above

Pre-Mega Quake Warning Prophecies of a Japan Quake sending Tsunami to the US West Coast right before the California Mega Quake.

Here is my former apology letter of how at first, I thought I was deceived by all this when these prophecies didn’t come to pass.

Since then, thru the help of some true friends in the Spirit, I’ve come to realize that I have not been deceived. This judgement was going to happen, but has been held off by the prayer of the righteous!

One day, these prophecies will come to pass and no prayer is going to hold it back. California, you are the media capitol of the world. You have taught the nations fornication, greed, selfishness and materialism. You have decieved the masses with US foreign policy filling its cup full of blood, by the damnable banksters and oil men who have shed the blood of many.

The only reason you are even in power is because you are the lesser of two evils, that being the battle between the east (communism) and the west (greed materialist capitolism).

God is going to strike the west and when he does, the two horned beast of Revelation 13, Russia and China will arise and take over. United States, you are on borrowed time!

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93 thoughts on “The Dr. Owuor Furore

  1. I am very keen to know who this ‘WeatherBill’ is. Why are they using lots/cards to explore the prophetic voice of God?

    Link: http://2012earthquake.blogspot.com/

    Saturday, October 30, 2010
    home – 2ww4.blogspot.com

    Prophetic Alert – California Tsunami and Mega Quake for August/September of 2012

    The Prophet Amos, in his day, was told of 3 judgments that would come to Israel (Amos chapters 7 & 8).

    Amos prayed and asked God to stop those destructive judgments. The first two judgments God with held because of Amos’ prayer, but the 3rd time, the judgment fell, despite Amos’ prayer for mercy.

    A huge mistake and assumption on my part in August and September of 2010 was that God would not withhold this pending judgment on California because of the prayers of his people.

    On September 3rd, 2010, was the start of thecall.com nation wide prayer gathering of over 14,000 Christians in Sacramento, gathered to pray over the nation. Was this massive prayer meeting in the capitol of California on the day the mega quake was supposed to happen a coincidence? Hardly!
    God answered and spared California of the pending judgment!

    We knew this judgment was to come Aug/Sept 2010 because of the multiple miraculous testimonies that had come in through the casting of lots, recorded at the 2ww4.blogspot.com site.

    Thank God for his mercy and that this pending judgment was delayed!
    At first, I was pretty confused when I did not see what God had shown me, come to pass. However, I did not allow that to develop a root of bitterness in me. I continued to press on and ask the Lord Jesus what was the next “alert time” to come, which he had already shown me in the April lots cast. I just wasn’t seeing it, due to my own blindness of thinking this judgment would not be canceled or delayed.

    I’m sure the prophet Amos went through some mocking from the Israelites in his day over what God had shown him, but did not come to pass, as well as Jonah. I told the Lord I am willing to put up with more mocking and ridicule if you will once again, show me the next “alert time” of this pending judgment on California.

    Like previously, I feel a responsibility to share whatever God show s me of this, that this pending judgment is for August/September of 2012.

    This has nothing to do with pole shifts or the mayan calendar or any other 2012 frenzy that has taken up space. This is simply an alert time for this mega quake that I believe God has given. My prayer and hope is that God shows others and confirms what I’m about to share with you in the coming months.

    Unlike the past, I have learned my lesson. That is, this judgment could be stopped if there is wide spread prayer for mercy at that time. I can’t say for certain either way because like you, I cannot read the mind of God and am not gifted to be a prophet, but I have been given some strong signs, so I am reporting them here, to you.

    At the end of April 2010, after a 2 day fast, through the casting of lots, I had received the 8-2-8-Queen of diamonds, in that exact order, two days in a row, an amazing miracle of odds ! At the time I was confused because I was certain of the 9-3-10 date, so certain that if God had shown me something else, I would have not been sensitive to see it.

    Those amazing identical lots 2 days in a row however, were telling me August 28th of 2012, the Queen always equaling the number 12.
    Jack=11, Queen=12, King=13, Ace=1

    I was blinded to God’s mercy in delaying the California judgment pronounced, similar to Amos or Jonah’s situation, when God had delayed or relented of judgment then.

    On October 28th, 2010, I began to pray and ask God to confirm to me these two 8-2-8-12(Q) lots, since October 28th was exactly 22 months to August 28th 2012, similar to the previous 22 month earthquake time clock.

    My prayer was, Lord confirm this to me and I don’t need the exact day, but just the next “alert time” meaning, confirm August/September of 2012, backing those previous lots. I make no official claim to the August 28th 2012 date, but am only as some of you, just wanting to know the time and season of things.

    Because the prophecies at the 2ww4 site (google) do state that once this California tsunami and mega quake hits, it will in short time, lead to the swift collapse of the US, ushering in WW3, so I am as some of you, just wanting to know if I should be prepared for something else, other than the norms of life.

    On October 28th, I prayed twice and casted lots twice on this. When I cast lots I shuffle randomly and pick off the top of the deck and ask God to make the cards come up as he wishes to show me, according to my prayer.

    The first prayer and lot cast came up 8-8-Q.
    The 2nd prayer and lot cast came up 8-Q–Ace of hearts-8-2-8
    I should have kept going on that 8-2-8. The queen might have come up after, as 8-2-8-Q, like twice before back in April, but wasn’t conscious to pick another card on it at the time. I was more in shock of what cards had come up, confirming the previous lots.

    From the other 8-2-8-Queen of diamonds, picked two days in a row in April of 2010, coupled with these lots, to me, spells some amazing numerical synchronicity that’s beyond coincidence.

    Another nifty numerical synchronicity was that I received the first lot of
    8-2-8-12 (Q) on April 29th, with the leap year day of 2012 added, that equals exactly 28 months till August 28th, 2012, so looks like some God given synchronicity with the 28 and the 22.

    I have learned my lesson from September 3rd. I make no claims to the August 28th date, accept to just be on alert all of August and September of 2012. Will God have mercy again and delay the judgment? As Amos, I can only pray Lord have mercy and if he does, California and the US has been bought some more time. If he doesn’t, at least some people are being alerted and plans to avoid the pain to come can be made.

    The prophecies at 2ww4, do state that the tsunami and mega quake are two separate events, described as only weeks apart, with the tsunami coming first, from a Japan mega quake, so bare in mind that if you see the tsunami strike as stated in the prophecies, then you know what is coming next, the mega quake.
    If you are troubled by all this, maybe a good idea is just go on living life, but when you see the warning tsunami strike as stated in the prophecies, then, at that time, make your living adjustments.

    Scripture says, whether we live or die, we belong to Christ, so for us in Christ, we don’t get too worried over these things. We also are not afraid to die, but pain is wanting to be avoided.

    I pray this message spreads, so people can be conscious of the warning tsunami to come and then, will be able to avoid the pains coming from the mega quake to follow.

    I also wish this to be a witness to those in unbelief, that when they do see these prophecies come to pass, whether at this alert time or not, they will believe in the Lord Jesus, the source of these prophecies and through him, escape what the bible calls the 2nd death, that they might share in the saving grace and the glory of the Lord Jesus that is coming to take over the earth from the corrupt governments of men.

    Take no heed to the false prophecies of pre-tribulation rapture. We are going to have tribulation, as clearly told in Matthew 24, where the Lord tells he is coming “after the tribulation” to “gather his elect.”

    If any of you would seek the Lord on this for confirmation and get something from him about this, please let me know. My intent is in no way to operate as a lone ranger on this, so I submit this to you, the body of Christ, to take to God in prayer, fasting and doing some testing for confirmation on this. Please let me know if any of you get anything on this.

    The Lord did confirm the September 3rd date in amazing ways, so if this is of him, I would think he would do the same as before, confirm it through others.
    Again, I want to emphasize, I make no claim that the August 28th 2012 date is a special prophecy, but a time to simply watch for based on the strong signs I’ve received on this. What I am saying is, I have strong signs alerting me to the August/September 2012 time frame to be alert on, for the California tsunami and mega quake to come. It is up to you if you wish to believe in what I see as the amazing odds of the lots cast and how strong these signs are.

    May God bless you as you seek him on these crucial events to come…. weatherbill

  2. Here is an interesting site that has a solid record on his Dr Uwour’s teaching: http://www.squidoo.com/owuor#module37019402

    They came to this conclusion:

    In my view, Dr. Owuor is a prophet proclaiming
    the soon coming of the Lord.

    He does not set dates, but focuses, as John the Baptist did, on his mission, which is to call the church to repentance.

    He does not ask anyone to accept his authority.
    He does not “move with apostles and prophets”.
    He is a loner, like John the Baptist.

    John’s appointed task was to proclaim the soon coming of Messiah.

    Dr. Owuor’s mandate is to proclaim that Yeshua the Messiah is nigh at hand,
    even at the door.

  3. Finally – this site popped up with this information:
    http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/tsunami-warnings-for-australia

    False tsunami prophecies
    Submitted by michael on Mon, 09/27/2010 – 06:54.

    No it was a guy called “weatherbill” on youtube who posted these. He has since publicly repented.

    Dr Uwuor gave no dates. Let that be clear. I thought I made it clear the first time, sorry if it wasn’t.

    The link above is worth the read – it clarifies a few things. It would be good if weatherbill would stop using fortune telling to predict the future too.

  4. It’s important to see how Dr Owuor claims credibility as a prophet through his visitations (emphasis mine):

    “With Prophets Moses and Elijah on one side of the Ark of the New Covenant of The Lord GOD in heaven, while Daniel was on the other side of the Ark of the New Covenant of The Lord GOD.”

    1. What makes this visions clearly false (and possibly demonic to me), is the belittling of the ‘Ark of The New Covenant’. The Ark of The New Covenant is Jesus. He is what makes us Holy and He is our Holiest of Holies. It was through the Passover that he revealed He was the Promise of God, through the shedding of His blood. It was his tabernacle that was destroyed and was raised again and now we dwell IN HIM and are seated WITH HIM. Pay attention how these visitations use the AotNC.

    2. Always be weary when these visitations contain dead people in them – that is necromancy if one is communicating to the dead or wanting something passed on from the dead to themselves. Dr Owuor is using these great men of God for the sake of his own name.

    “This was followed by another Mighty Visitation, in the same month at 3:26am in the morning when The Lord GOD presented to him the Rod of Moses (Rod of GOD).”

    1. What makes the rod of Moses prophetic is because it is a type of the cross – revealing the ways to salvation through Christ. It was device used for wrath and judgment against Egypt – and it was used to bury the past of the Jews as the waters of the sea collapsed behind them – a majestic symbol revealing they have now passed from the lordship of Pharaoh (Fallen Powers), to the Lordship of Jehovah.

    It was the rod that was used to reveal the water from the rock. It was this rod that budded almond blossoms – (apparently they flower in early spring). All these acts point to the wonderful power of Christ Crucified on the wood of Calvary. But the rod can also be seen being Christ Himself as He is used by the Father to judge, bless and give new life and abundance. The rod is only seen in the above vision as a baton or a knighting passed to Dr Owuor to ‘prophesy’ or judge’. These visions do not exalt Christ but Dr Uwour!

    “Furthermore, on April 2, 2004 between 2pm-4pm, The Lord appeared to him and presented John The Baptist on his right hand side and The Holy Spirit spoke to Dr. Owuor by voice instructing him to go warn the four corners of the earth to repent in Christ Jesus and prepare the way for the Second Coming of Christ, The Lamb of God. This was The LORD GOD’s commissioning statement to Dr. David Owuor. A statement that turned his life around and put him on the road to preach repentance.”

    1. What does seem to make this particular vision legitimate is the Spirit laying out a simple command to preach about Jesus’ second coming. But the appearance of John only exalts the credibility of Uwour and not Jesus Christ. In fact – the addition of John only makes Dr Uwour look like an EndTimes revelations witness and he has the same power and spirit of John in his ministry. This visitation with simply John and not a personal encounter with Jesus is very disturbing. It is the elevation of these men to give Dr Owour credibility that is dodgy. We are ALL made EQUAL in Christ – but this vision is setting Dr Owour apart by having spiritual encounters with dead men. That is why I question this is the Holy Spirit talking to Him at all.

    “These Mighty Visitations were followed by another one, in which The Lord lifted him up and took him into His Throne room in heaven in which He spoke with Dr. Owuor again By Voice and showed him the Holy Bible that is inside the Ark of the New Covenant of The Lord in God’s Throne room. Then lightening hit the Holy Bible three times inside the New Covenant of The Lord thereby causing a quake of the Ark of the New Covenant of The Lord in God’s Throne room. The Archangel then asked Dr. Owuor to pray and immediately he said “Father, I come to you with a lot of praise and thanksgiving in the Mighty Name of Christ Jesus. . .” Then the Glory of The Lord came through the Golden walkway and sat on the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the New Covenant. The place is most Holy causing the two Cherubim of Glory to bow behind the Throne room at which place Dr. Owuor saw the River of Life flowing into the main street of the New Jerusalem and the Tree of Life on both sides (Other things cannot be discussed at this time).”

    1. Now be aware of what is happening to the bible! It is being exalted INSIDE the ‘New Covenant’! Jesus Christ is our covenant but the ‘book’ is being exalted. If this a true vision, then why is the bible being exalted over the ‘Ark of The New Covenant’? The bible points us to Christ – so why the sudden exaltation of the bible in the throne room of God then Christ Himself? So you have the AotNC present and ArchAngel Lord present and the Glory of the Lord present – in the bible they all point to one person, Jesus.

    By examining these visions, I have no doubt that Dr Owour is deceived by another spirit. His accuracies could be dead accurate – but I cannot accept the ‘spirit’ that has commissioned him to be a Godly one to prophesy such things. I hear his name and ministry promoted more than the name of Jesus, just like other false prophets and teachers today.

  5. I AM A KENYAN AND I HAVE HEARD PROPHET OWUOR MANY TIMES AND EVEN ATTENDED SOME OF HIS MEETINGS. INDEED, HE HAS BEEN PREACHING THE SAME THINGS BEING PREACHED IN THE BIBLE AND WARNING PEOPLE ALLOVER THE WORLD TO REPENT AND PREPARE THE WAY FOR CHRIST’S COMING. I AM DEEPLY MOVED THAT YOU ARE NOT EVEN ASHAMED TO CALL HIM A FACSE PROPHET. JUST REPENT AND PRAY TO GOD TO HELP YOU CHANGE YOUR HEART AS YOU PREPARE FOR THE IMMINENT RETURN OF CHRIST. THIS IS GOD’S MESSENGER, BELIEVE IT OR NOT. GOD BLESS.

  6. If he was sent by dead men and not by the Jesus (who IS the New Covenant and not an inanimate object that exalts the bible), then he is speaking from an anti-Christ spirit.

    The Spirit points to the Son – the Son points to the Father. These visions exalt Dr Owuor – not Jesus. He is false by what he confesses what has sent him. A false prophet can prophesy both good and evil things.

  7. I don,t know whether David Owuor is a prophet sent by God Or Jesus or not.I do find some theological fallacy in what the straightlaced men of religion say though.Cosider: If there is no reincarnation ever, then Jesus must be wrong, when he said Elijah had come again,this is in reference to Owuor speaking to the dead as u complain as not being scriptural.These are dreams and visions,No reason why God or Jesus Or Holy Spirit cannot be shown together, independently or THAT john , Elijah Noah or any other Person, character or DONKEY for that matter can be present.

  8. I have discovered Dr. Owuor and these sites, as a result of posting, that I seem to be able to say that Quakes and other bad Weather conditions are going to occur,however I am not a prophet,curiously I do not KNOW exact times and dates,also I don,t seem to be aware that they are actually taking place.I am a b/again Christian,occasionally go to any denominational Christian church.I had not heard ov Dr. OWuor before Friday 15 April 2011,I have a strong feeling about a possible major Quake and/or Tsunami to do with Tasmania,not knowing exactly where or when,Today, at 9 – 05 am.I experienced rumbling in ears and then my r/arm began shaking followed by violent shaking of my whole body.I saw a deep dark river rising high.I saw a pole with a medium sized white/cream clockface,as I looked they were engulfed and obscured by rolling dust or sand.Later I saw sea or waters boiling in circular eddies that had consistency of hot mud.I knew The Christchurch Quake Was going to occur 5-6 and a half months after the Sept. 4- 2010

  9. I knew for several weeks after second C/Church quake that something big possibly involving big seas to the East coast of Australia.I am expecting another in Nz and Australia,possibly Queensland and/or the Great Barrier Reef.I also think a major quake will happen in a border area of China,possibly Xian, Shanxia prefecture, or Korean border area.A Volcano going off in Japan or Philippines,and Indian su. b continent,Turkey, Italy and Spain/Portugal vicinities.Pelee, then US.I see these things as being the result of cooling and contraction of the core of the earth

  10. Hi Dallas,

    you say that these quakes will happen due to cooling and contraction of Earth’s core.

    Does God have anything to do with this cooling?

  11. Also, as the earth cools down in the core it may cause expansion of the crust, thereby causing more heat on surface areas for a time.Jesus would surely have known these things would take place, hence Math. Ch. 24.These are only the beginnings of the signs he was talking about,so therefore are likely to be a final warning fo Nations, Governments and Individuals to be LED by the collective Church,first to repentance and then others to follow when they repent.2012 will not be the final end but it is closing in.

  12. I think that is natural, but can use his creation for his own purposes,I think also that the earth has changed direction of rotation in the past,I have no proof of this,however geologists say that Tasmania was up near China, they same rock and striations to be found in both.They refer to Australia as being or part of Gondwana.Notice that Dr. Owuor must know this too as he refers to Gondwanaland,so perhaps at one time all was one big molten mass wqhich gradually uncoiled like a clock spring over time.This could explain how there seems to be links to the pre Columbian world.

  13. If you examine what the Bible says,it says in Isaiah that God looks down on the circle of the earth,so they must have known that the earth was round, well before Columbus in 1492.Another thing It says in Malachi that God was going to sendElijah before Great Fearful day of the LORD,now Jesus ascribed this to his day,so this must mean that the first fulfilment of those words were in Jesus’ day.Also if u look at Math @4 and Luke 13 u will see that the gathering takes place within the four winds of HEAVEN, not the EARTH,so does that mean there is some sort of halfway house or something before so called rapture, ressurection or whatever re Thessalonians,or if they are already in heaven when did they get there,and if so why do they need to be gathered?Could it be a repeat style of writing about the same thing?

  14. I think that where a lot of problems of interpretation lie, are in people incorrectly trying to apply to the end times theology,that which applied in the time around when Jesus lived, and then up to and around the apostles deaths and soon after.You can just as easily read the Revelation as a rhapsodical play about the Nations that had already been dealt with, in relation to Israel,Judah, Samaria and other surrounding nations with which the Apostle John would have had knowledge and experience.It is written in hebraic style but he was supposedly Greek on the Island of Patmos at time of authorship.Some Of this is said to be so by Schoenfield a kind of Christian Jew by the way.There are a playing of words continually,as was the custom in Worship hymnals and prayers.This can be confusing, and could be leading to a wrong intrpretation and understanding.What I am saying is that it is possible that the same entities and subjects may be one and the same collectively with this poetical, prosaic style of writing.

  15. specksandplanks, regarding your comment on playing cards, playing cards have occult meanings which can be discovered via Google. You may be aware of this already.

    Regarding Dr Owuor, I haven’t read enough on this to know whether he is real or not but what I do know is that many people around the world believe that natural disasters such as the Katrina hurricane in New Orleans, USA and the earthquake in Haiti were man-made. Personally, I am certain that both of these disasters were man-made.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if the 2004 Indonesian tsunami and the recent Japanese tsunami were also man-made, however I’m not certain.

    If Dr Owuor is not of God then he may have inside knowledge of future disasters currently being planned.

    Nice title: “Owuor Furore”

  16. I have read some of the crtique of Dr. Owuoer,much of it runs along the lines of straight laced churchianity.Jesus may well have been referring to such legalistic interpretation of scripture, when he was referring to the priests, Pharisees and Lawyers.They fail to impress and seem to be able tom put a clever case against guys like Rodney Howard Browne, Kathryn Khulman, Benny Hinn and preachers of the out of the religious straightjacket mode.I wonder if their churches are overflowing though or are stunted from growth? There appears to be a certain amount of enmity and jealousy toward the success of their ministries.I listened to The good Doc., who is probably a Dr. of a University order,he appeared to have the love of God, love for people and makes a lot of sense.I cannot endorse him as AN infallible prophet at this juncture.It must be very difficult to ,with 100% accuracy relate word for word what u saw and heard.I could not, even with that with which I am completely familiar,let alone with places and things that I know little, or nothing of.

  17. A few questions:

    1) is evidence of success evidence of God’s Approval?

    2) Is the book of Revelation dealing with the immediate future after the resurrection of Jesus as opposed to the end of the age and the return of Jesus to planet Earth?

    3) Will the church lead a glorious end-times revival and the whole earth will bow down to Jesus BEFORE He comes back?

  18. RE:

    “This was The LORD GOD’s commissioning statement to Dr. David Owuor. A statement that turned his life around and put him on the road to preach repentance.”
    .
    .
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    It would be much better to see a “repentance” preacher preach in King’s Cross, on the streets, or anywhere BUT in a church, to church people.

    They claim they have a message for the world but they end up preaching to Christians.

    There’s no money to be made in street preaching, AND it is humiliating. Bottom-line.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  19. Hi there Bull and Vincent!! What is success? I am a DSP recipient,only completed year 10 in Kings Meadows High School in Tasmania.So as far as University, I am A dud.No Theological training,so as far as any recognition from those quarters,I’m a dud.I’ve been in the clink,so legally I,m a dud,on the path to getting there,you find out there’s Justice only by accident,usually u win through a technicality of the Law,or equally u lose by same.It has nothing to do with real guilt or innocence.Israel had reached this level of affairs long before our British based system stumbled along it’s present path.Justice and a true set of measurements and scales were the requirements for Israel’s continuing blessing from Jehovah God.I think that manipulations of law and regulations of the various systems that enable the poor to be downtrodden,abused and at disadvantages within societies,anger the Lord immensely.All this goes on in pretense of EQUAL justice for all,but is really a rigged system to keep the poor poor ,the less poor least poor and the RICH Even Richer.Do u think that these are some of the reasons that God may decide to use the natural forces at His disposal in order to bring Nations and Governments to heel?

  20. Had a waking dream today,it was in several parts,but one dream.[1]I saw the pole with a white/cream clockface smaller than Big Ben,at the r/h on the ground,a sandstorm or billowing dust rolling in as in yesterday’s dream,however,today there was a modern jet fighter plane with colored circles on it’s wings, like Raf,Raaf or maybe French,do the french planes have rings on the flats of the delta wings?It’s nose was broken down like Concorde.[2]I was flying in a small white plane along the coasts of Tasmania,The East coast of Australia,looking down at the beautiful little waves as they lapped their ways to break on the shore,it was sunny and peaceful,Over an area near Bowen and Whitsundays I veered rightpast the barrier reef Then right up over the Cape York Peninsula,New Guinea,Then up along to the shores of Japan.Beautiful and calm all the way!I then returned in reverse; ie I flew backwards I looked down to my right and far out to sea I saw a big blue wave,before there was a smaller spent wave coming onto the shore.I’m not sure whether this part of the dream took place before or after the next part though![3]I’m still going backwards but I can see the little white plane which I am, or was in.I am in reverse going further up And up,there are clouds,dark,whispy clouds,and I cant see, except for between breaks in the clouds.As I continue up I can see almost all of the roundness of the earth, but not quite.I could see New Zealand from After Christchurch, but not south,on the East coast I saw A l/h curving bay or beach with a small bluish looking mountain like an extinct volcano not far away in a waking impression, whilst showering on Sat.16 last,so I think that this part of my dream is connected to Nz near Wellington or Hawkes Bay’ Napier-Hastings area,in the impression I saw A black thing coming up out of the sea and waves,like a whale surfacing through the waves,it then came to be flat looking old rock,I don’t know whether this was future or what has happened in the past in this area, in 1931.Maybe that is why I was over Nz in this, today’s dream? I looked at the map near Bowen in Qld and there is a smallish mountain or large hill there too.I have impressions that there would be A quake in Nz, also In Australia,Qld, Barrier reef area,also to do with Tasmania,maybe Launceston area or East coast Tas/Islands areas.Mt. Gambier in South Aust./Vic. border area is an extinct? volcano,But it’s got water in the crater,I did’nt see in my impression water in the bowl.Has anyone else had experiences like in my outline?Any help in interpreting? I could be mistaken if I broke the rule of not interpreting self’s dreams.Thanks

  21. A few questions (again):

    1) is evidence of success (for example, material blessing, or huge church growth) evidence of God’s Approval?

    2) Is the book of Revelation dealing with the immediate future after the resurrection of Jesus as opposed to the end of the age and the return of Jesus to planet Earth?

    3) Will the church lead a glorious end-times revival and the whole earth will bow down to Jesus BEFORE He comes back?

  22. 1) Rev. 17 & 18

    Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come here; I will show unto you the judgment of the great harlot that sits upon many waters:
    Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
    .
    .
    .
    .

    2) The whole church age, millennial age, and to eternity.

    Rev 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter…
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    .
    .
    .

    3) Mat 7:14 Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  23. 1)

    a) God approves obedience, faith which works by love, and fruitfulness. He chose us in Christ to produce much fruit, and that our fruit should remain. A fruitful branch will be pruned. An unfruitful branch will be broken off and cast into the fire.

    b) God blessed Abraham in all he did, and demonstrated that his favour was upon him. He gave Abraham exceedingly great promises, upon which both the Old and New Covenants are based, and which are applicable to his descendants, those who are of the same faith, the heirs of the inheritance through faith in Christ. One would have to call this approval and evidence of approval.

    c) Israel was commanded to listen and obey all that God said, which would result in blessing, but if they failed to listen and obey it would result in cursing. How do you apply approval, or the lack of, to these instructions? Would you say that faith and obedience lead to approval, or not?

    d) God bases success on our capacity to obey his will, and to do his Word by faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God, for those who come to him must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.

    e) Numerical or financial success is not necessarily evidence of God’s approval or disapproval, merely the result of the faithful application of godly principles which produce increase. However, the connotation that a successful, fruitful Christian enterprise is therefore target for negative criticism is completely wrong and baseless. One would expect fruitfulness in God’s vineyard, provided the conditions for growth matched God’s directive. ‘In due season you will reap, if you faint not’.

    2) Revelation refers to all times, past, present and future, until the coming of Christ, the Millennial reign, the Judgements, and the entry of the Church into eternity with Him in the New Heavens and New Earth and New Jerusalem.

    3)

    a) Jesus spoke of an ingathering of souls before the end of the age, this being the purpose of the cross, and of the command to the Church.

    b) Paul spoke of a falling away of weak and seduced believers.

    c) So both will take place, however it is not the work of the Church to bring the whole earth to bow down before Christ before he comes as a militant force, but to continue to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations.

    e) When Jesus comes in judgement all will bow down.

    f) Before he comes the whole earth will be made his footstool (Ps.110)

  24. Yes, they are forced to bow while they are being judged, and after that the majority is thrown into the lake of fire.

    …………………

    The thing about “giving to get” is that it is giving with a selfish motive – for the return one thinks they can get.

    Therefore, as it is self-motivated, and not motivated by love for God or man, it is corruption.

    But the leaders of WOF got rich simply cos they leeched the money out of naive Christians, like parasites: promising that if they sow into their ministry they will get a good return; by straight out begging for money; using carrot and stick manipulation; and by merchandizing their teachings at exhorbitant prices… etc…

  25. On the other hand, sowing to reap is Biblical. No farmer sows a crop without expecting a harvest, and even panning what kind of harvest to expect. You not turn up at work each day without knowing that at the end of the week there will be an agreed reward for your labours. The farmer should be the first to partake of the crop. We do not muzzle the ox that treads the corn.

    When we honour God with all of our possessions and the first fruits of our increase, we can know that our storehouses will be filled. That is wisdom.

    Planning ahead for all things is part of Kingdom culture.

  26. Sowing money to reap money is not Biblical.

    Love expects nothing in return, right? It’s unconditional, yes? It never seeks it’s own, right?

    So, sowing money in order to reap money is corrupt.

    Jesus said don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, in regard to giving.

    That means there should be no calculation as to what you’re going to get out of it.

    Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.

    Jesus said don’t seek after the things. He said that the heathen do that.

    Give out of love, expecting nothing in return, and God will meet your needs.

    See, a simple Bible reading shows up the modern WOF philosophy as corrupt.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  27. Only if you focus on one form of giving, ian. There are many ways to sow, reap, honour, and give. It is not corrupt for a farmer to expect a crop from his seed. It is wisdom.

    ‘Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness, while you are enriched in everything for all liberality, which causes thanksgiving through us to God.’

    I don’t see Paul saying it is wrong here to expect God to bless our giving. It is part of faith to believe that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. He rewards in many ways.

    ‘Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches. Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.’

    There is a correlation between what is sown and what is reaped.

    ‘Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation. But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.’

    Cause and effect. I’m happy for you to have no expectation to your sowing or giving, but it is not corrupt for a person to expect God to be able to make all grace abound to them when they give purposefully, bountifully and with a cheerful heart.

  28. Actually Kipling, the difference in our views here is one of degree rather than kind.

    What does that mean?
    It means that we are closer to agreeing than disagreeing.

    I was more intereted in Dallas’ view, as I already know your view. In any event, he hasn’t answered.

    The bottom line is, of course, that financial success or numerical growth is not evidence of God’s approval. FOr example the Mormon Church, or JW’s or the ultimate example, Islam.

    Regarding the sow to reap thing, well, God doesn’t promise to reward those who give to the church.

    As Paul said in Romans “Who has given to God that God should repay him?”

    Promises of blessing in the Old Testament referred to Israel and the land. But it was a double promise.
    I will bless you if you keep My Commandments and curse you if you do not.

    You can’t get the promises of material blessing without the curses.

    That’s the simple truth.

    Shalom

  29. Re:

    “but it is not corrupt for a person to expect God to be able to make all grace abound to them when they give purposefully, bountifully and with a cheerful heart.”
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    .
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    Yeah, i would agree with that, as long as one is not giving to get.

    The WOF people go much further than that and promote greed and covetousness (all for the glory of God, of course).

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  30. Just moving the thread along, Bull!

    The promises of the Old Testament were based on promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and to their offspring, including those who of Christ. The promises were covenantal, and covered all of Abraham’s descendants.

    The blessings and curses of the Old Testament were designed to caretake Israel to the Seed, when faith entered. The Promises were not nullified when the Law was superseded, since they precede the Law. Galatians 3 says it all.

  31. ian, your phrase, ‘giving to get’ is a negative version of ‘sowing to reap’. No agriculturalist ploughs the earth without a harvest in mind. It doesn’t make sense to say otherwise.

    You can sow a seed into the earth and water it and not expect a plant to grow if you like, but, because God is the God of increase, and the seed has a purpose, and will produce given the right conditions, that seed will produce a new generation of seed whether you like it, or plan it, or accept it, or not. That’s why it is called seed. That’s why it’s called sowing and harvest. You can’t stop God’s natural or spiritual laws.

  32. You’re mixing the metaphors.

    Re:

    “that seed will produce a new generation of seed whether you like it, or plan it, or accept it, or not. That’s why it is called seed. That’s why it’s called sowing and harvest. You can’t stop God’s natural or spiritual laws.”

    .
    .
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    You’ve reduced God to an idol.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  33. No Kipling,

    the promises in the old testament that were highlighted in the Prophets were based on the Law of Moses.

    The Abrahamic Covenant does carry through, but was fulfilled in Jesus. He inherits. He was the promised seed according to Paul.

    Malachi 3 cannot apply to the Christian Church for example. If it does, then our descendents will be cursed to the third and fourth generation for not bringing the tithes into the storehouse.

    Would you agree with that?

  34. Don’t be insulting, ian!

    God is the God of increase. That’s scriptural fact. All you need to do is plough, sow, water and reap. His instruction. What’s stopping you?

    I challenge you to sow a seed in good soil and water it and let photosynthesis work on it, and stop it producing without touching it!

    You won’t be able to do it, because God spoke it into being. That’s why it’s called a seed.

    They reproduce after their own kinds, ian. It’s all over the Bible!

  35. Bull,

    The Old Testament, as I said, was a caretaker, temporary janitor, which God added until the Seed. It was based on the same promises as the New Covenant.

    Read Galatians 3.

  36. Come on, Bull.

    Is Malachi 3 Old Testament? Was it temporary? Was it added until Christ came? Has Christ come? Has faith come? It’s all in Galatians 3.

    If the Law was added until Christ came, then it is superseded by Christ, and by the New Covenant, and by faith, since the Law cannot be of faith, but salvation and sonship as heirs is through faith in Christ. But it is still true that the promises made to Abraham were of faith, and the New Covenant is based on the promises to Abraham, as was the Old, although it was of law and not faith.

    In a way the whole of he Bible applies to Christians in some way, though, doesn’t it? It is all written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

    1 Corinthians 10
    1* ¶ Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
    2* all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
    3* all ate the same spiritual food,
    4* and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
    5* But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
    6* Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
    7* And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”
    8* Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
    9* nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
    10* nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
    11* Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
    12* Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
    13* No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

  37. “Nz and Australia,possibly Queensland and/or the Great Barrier Reef…..in a border area of China,possibly Xian, Shanxia prefecture, or Korean border area.A Volcano going off in Japan or Philippines,and Indian su. b continent,Turkey, Italy and Spain/Portugal vicinities.Pelee, then US.”

    I think you’ve covered your bases pretty well there. Yep, some kind of quake, tsunami, volcano in one of those places is pretty well on the cards.

    Speaking of cards, “after a 2 day fast, through the casting of lots, I had received the 8-2-8-Queen of diamonds, ”

    I thought I had heard everything. Wow…

  38. yes or no, Kipling.

    Does Malachi 3 apply to those under the New Covenant?

    Yes … or no.

    I don’t want lots of info … just a yes or no answer.

  39. Perhaps you need to trim down and refine your question, Bull. Much of the chapter references the Church or Israel under the NT. For instance, there is a direct application in the first six verses, which are a part of the whole.

    When you start eliminating vast portions of scripture to suit your own doctrinal stance you are on dangerous ground. The Church was a mystery to the OT Prophets, but it was referenced all through their sayings.

    That’s why the early Christians waited eagerly for the Apostles Doctrine as they sifted through the OT to discover Christ and his Church.

    Then Paul told us the mystery of the Ages and of the Church had been given him by revelation, and he expounded on it.

    So, yes, Malachi 3 references the Church.

    But you knew that, didn’t you?

  40. Re:

    “that seed will produce a new generation of seed whether you like it, or plan it, or accept it, or not. That’s why it is called seed. That’s why it’s called sowing and harvest.

    **You can’t stop God’s natural or spiritual laws**.”

    .
    .
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    You’ve reduced God to an idol by depersonalizing Him and making Him into a “force” or a “spiritual law”.

    .
    .
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    RE: **You can’t stop God’s natural or spiritual laws**
    .
    .
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    Well, God can stop them.

    Someone may be a clone of Kenneth Copeland, and they are believing for their 100 fold return on the seed they’ve sown.

    Now, God may have pity on this pathetic, covetous man, and want to deliver him from his love of money so that he can love Jesus.

    So, what does God do? In spite of this man’s “sowing” into “good soil” so diligently, He causes him to go broke.

    This man’s house of cards comes tumbling down around him.

    He is bewildered. Why, God? Why, KC? Kenneth answers, “You didn’t have enough faith.”

    This man was taught that “sowing and reaping” is a universal law that applies to everyone, whether they know Jesus or not, meaning that God is not a Person, He is a force which anyone can “tap into”, or a “principle” which anyone can apply.

    Then, this man realizes that, despite all his “sowing”, it was GOD who made him go broke (not the devil)to cause him to realize that he was relating to God as an idol.

    Hebrews tells us that such dealings show that we are God’s sons, and if we can “prosper” and be corrupt (like Copeland and other con men) AND GET AWAY WITH IT, it shows that we are illegitimate, and not God’s children.

    That is why so many conmen “prosper” in “Jesus name”, cos they are illegitimate, and not under the Father’s discipline.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  41. Pingback: You can’t stop God’s natural or spiritual law!! « Ian Vincent

  42. “Does Malachi 3 apply to those under the New Covenant?”

    No.

    The church is under grace, not under law. We are not under an obligation to give a tithe any more than we are to wear phylacteries, to have tassels on our garments, to refrain from sowing two types of crops in the same field, to abstain from eating “unclean” foods, to observe religious feasts, to stone adulterers to death, or to observe any other religious regulation. You can be under grace or you can be under the Old Testament law. One or the other, not both; that is quite clear from the New Testament.

    The proof of the pudding is in the powerless preaching of those who hold to a prosperity doctrine: they raise their voices, but their bombastic manner is clearly of the flesh – there is none of the unmistakable ring of authority that comes only from the Holy Spirit. What surprises me the most is that so many people lack even the barest modicum of discernment that it takes to recognise this – or perhaps they do in fact possess the necessary discernment, but are so wedded to the heresy that the ensuing cognitive dissonance renders them spiritually insensate. So it is that some people can attend a Pentecostal church for ten or twenty years and yet remain in the Spiritual shallows, never grasping or growing in the deeper things of God.

    “When you start eliminating vast portions of scripture to suit your own doctrinal stance you are on dangerous ground.”

    Oh the irony! What does one suppose happens to the “doctrine” of tithing when the whole counsel of scripture is considered?

  43. @ian… ‘You’ve reduced God to an idol by depersonalizing Him and making Him into a “force” or a “spiritual law”.’

    No I haven’t. You’ve just let your obsession with Copeland interfere with what I have said. I’m not a spokesman for Copeland, or eve a fan of his doctrine. I have not mentioned any of what you say.

    How is God reduced to an idol simply because I acknowledge his Word? No where have I said he is a force or a spiritual law. He is the Author of all laws, natural and spiritual.

    Nevertheless there are natural and spiritual laws in place, activated by God himself. If you don’t believe me, try to convince your body that it will never die. You can’t be cause you know that God has put in motion the law of sin and death, and your body is subject to it. Try to jump out of a twenty story building and defy gravity. You can’t, because, unless you can flap your arms really fast and create thrust, you are going down. It’s a law.

    As I said before, try planting a seed in good soil, water it, and allow natural conditions to work on it, and you will see that it will produce after its kind. That is God’s seed and harvest system in action.

    @CCC3er…

    I encourage you to read through Malachi 3, and tick off the things which apply to the New Testament and the things which apply to the Old.

    If you can get through the first six verses without realising that pretty well the whole of it applies to the New I’d be very surprised, since it refers to the coming of John the Baptist, who precedes the Messiah, the Christ, and what the Christ will do to bring change to his people. Most commentaries will agree with what I have said.

    As I said to Bull, he will have to revise his question before I could possibly give the answer he is seeking. Not that I understand why he asked, or what relevance it has to the things I have been saying.

    By the way, ‘all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work’.

    What you have to realise is that there is a point to everything that God has said.

    We may no longer be subject to the Mosaic Law, but it still has meaning for us, as I pointed out earlier in quoting 1 Corinthians 10:1-13, which read to see context. ‘Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.’

    When you start taking out large tracts of scripture to attempt to ‘prove’ your own doctrine, you are going into error.

    I suggest you read the thread before jumping to conclusions on my position on Malachi 3.

  44. ian vincent

    You took what I said and twisted it in a villainous way on your blog. If that’s the way you operate, I’m not interested in conversing with you.

    I left a comment there to refute what you said, but you’re one of those bloggers who sends people straight into moderation and cherry picks what you want to appear, just in case you don’t look so good to your audience of three.

    Here’s my response in full:

    ‘The statement was that ‘you’, ian vincent and the like, can’t stop it.

    I gave you a simple challenge to try it. Sow a seed, any seed, in good soil, water it and allow natural circumstances to work on it, and see if you can stop it from growing without touching it. You can’t. It’s God’s law of sowing and reaping. You sow, and you reap. God gives the increase. God gives the seed.

    You can’t even stop the processes of growth and decay in your own physical body.

    Of course, God can do what he wants.

    He can cause barrenness or abundance.

    You can’t. Not without interfering with natural or spiritual laws.

    What Kenneth Copeland had to do with anything is anyone’s business.

    You have twisted what was said at SP02 to get on your soap box and use SP02 as a vehicle for your own agenda.

    It is not, and cannot be, idolatry to agree with God’s Word and Will.

    I’m not a Copeland fan, but I believe he found oil on his land, and is a now a gasoline billionaire. Go figure!’

  45. Hi there Churchman! Now did I knock Your Cards on the 8 2 8 scenario? no I did not.While you want to rubbish other’s opinions on this blog, let me tell u this.I have stated as clearly as possible the impressions, and/or the picturizations that I am getting.Also let me emphasise that I do not claim absolute accuracy,I am not dogmatic in my statements.That is the reason, as u put it,I appear to have pretty well covered all bases.By the way would it interest u to know, I had a picture of Australia,the map was clearly complete and visible,it was shallowly under water,light greeny/brown in colour.I was seeing from a higher elevation looking toward the Pacific Ocean.Now this part may well interest u,ON EACH SIDE OF THE MAP OF THE CONTINENT OF AUSTRALIA<I DID NOT SEE TASMANIA<BUT THERE WERE @ NUMBERS< ON THE MAP<EITHER SIDE IN THE CENTRE OF THE E AND W WERE THE NUMBER 8.So what are your thoughts on that?

  46. Why don’t we look at the common beliefs we may have, instead of getting bogged down in legalistic doctrinal argument. ?Churches for 2000 years haven’t been able to get away from dogma .Let us clearly and with grace consider all points of view.Re whether we r under Grace or the Law.We first need to separate what laws are being talked about.The ten Commandments seem to embody laws that only pertain to worshiping Yaweh,If u wish, or Yeshua if u wish or Jehovah, if u wish Or Adonai if u wish.Others seem to be general laws or commands for reasonable living from a human and social point of view.They in turn seem to embody what is Known by what Jesus said,in connection with ‘loving your neighbour as yourself.This so called Golden Rule is known in laws and regulations the world over, whether Christian or not.The other law{s} were Mosaic, talmudic laws and other laws that had derived over time.Jesus referred to some of these, in different contexts and at and for different times and for different purposes.All of this wrapped up together,in effect fulfilled the Law as Jesus said he had come to fulfill the law, not to do away with it.From my reading of the scriptures, it would be done because The LAW was what culminated in being the accuser in effect, because it was only the existence of the Law that determined that a sin had been committed.Now that would be confined to having dealt with if the sinner either confessed or via witnesses being found out and either punished or forgiven by ritual and sacrifices by sprinkling of the blood by the Priesthood.Now I presume among other things that Jesus’ Sacrificial death would also have atoned for all of the not uncovered sins of The Israelites, the samarians and the aliens dwelling within their land.Of couse he also died for all of mankind’s sins.So in order to get the answer to our question we need to separate out of the various laws I have mentioned which should we still be practising.We also have to decide which parts of the scriptures, containing these laws we are going to keep, in due to progression and maturity of social systems under which we now live. We must do this, otherwise we would still be stoning women that had not cried rape in the town, another situation if she were in the country.The rebellious son would have to die also .You should get the picture of how murky this could be,the list of scenarios goes on and on.Another problem that Jesus did not try to address is the position of slaves.Nor did the apostles later Would we all still like to be slaves or purchase and/or own one?

  47. @ Kipling

    Now c’mon! Soapboxes are made of cardboard these days.

    Ok, i repent of making this blog my soapbox, and i’ll try and follow your illustrious example, Kipling, of non-soapbox dialogue.

    Yeah, i don’t normally respond to comments that are either stupid or hateful, and i get plenty of them on my blog, and they never see the light of day.

    Wow, Kenneth struck it rich! He’s almost as blessed as the Saudis!!

    Sowing and reaping, sowing and reaping……………

  48. Sowing and reaping.

    So, the reason Jesus did not have much money and no possessions is bcos He did not sow finances, and therefore He did not reap finances?

    Same with the Apostles. They didn’t get rich, like Copeland et al, bcos they simply did not sow enough finance into the right soil. They reaped what they sowed, right? Or they lacked faith?

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  49. Hi there folks,call me a hypocrite if u will,but yesterday I went down the street to see if I could buy a Planet prepaid internet card.I was in a way ,as I was able to, pleasantly surprised ! The Asian guy in the comp. shop said he was a Christian when I said I thought they wouldn’t be open,because of Easter.I left, ,and my heart became very heavy down High Street,I realised that Preston had indeed become multicultural as there was no parking available anywhere,I wondered if this was because of the Preston market being open.Indeed it was!!Cashie’s was open too!! Business as usual!! my heart became VERY heavy, as I pondered; Regardless of any exact dating,The Easter Holiday period is supposed to be sacred for Christians.Indeed I also pondered That Christ Jesus our Saviour circa 2000 years ago,His BODY at least,was freezing in a cold stone tomb.Only the day before, which has, euphemistically come to be called Good Friday,he was also freezing on the cross with the 2 wrongdoers,only hours before.How people have come to thank Him for dying for our sins and iniquities!! Under the guise of Equality and multiculturalism has this come about.Successive Governments have passed laws and regulations that have belittled and minimised the meaning of the Eastertime Holidays.I Think the real understanding of Babylon the Great of Revelation, may well be the collective, of the Political systems,the commercial systems, banking systems and The Great Democracy myth that is being pushed along by rampant creditization and the [merchants of the earth]Without credit, if everyone had to pay cash,we would then see what the gravity of where we are now, as far as the real economic myth is concerned.The churches as a collective operate this way too,causing bad pastoral teaching to be dished out to their members.Isn’t there scriptures that say, that there will be people praying for the ‘great and Terrible Day of The Lord’ and it’s wrath will fall upon them?Perhaps this would be a fitting answer to their prayers,as that will likely be their only way out of debt.This is why we all need to repent,Let God cleanse and begin a’New Beginning’ Dallas

  50. @ian vincent,

    In 2000 Copeland was roundly rebuked by K E Hagin for allowing excess to be preached at his Convention. I concur with his rebuke. Hagin wrote a book, ‘The Midas Touch’, which set out the reasons for his rebuke of several Word of Faith ministries which went into excess, including some popular TV Evangelists of the day, and gave a balanced view of teaching on Biblical stewardship.

    Calling me a clone of Copeland is sheer nonsense. It tells me you know nothing of Biblical stewardship, and are completely unable to grasp a person’s perspective at first reading. It tells me you have an inflexible prefabricated view of stewardship and lack understanding of God’s teaching on it.

    You have made several assumptions about what I have been saying based on your flawed opinion and obsession with Copeland. You read things into the conversation because your own ideas are warped by prejudice.

    Jesus said many things about financial and resource stewardship which bear no resemblance to your philosophy of poverty as a virtue.

    He was given a specific mission by God, and his stewardship was related to this. We all have different missions from God, and, for some of us, stewardship of finances to resource the gospel may be included. Others may have to suffer with the poor. Making a doctrine out of a circumstance or an individual call can lead to error.

    Just do what God has sent you to do, and be contented, but don’t make the mistake of projecting your call onto everyone else. That is pride, and leads to a fall.

  51. Bull re Does Revelation refer; Someone else on this blog Quotes Rev:19 that verse he quotes gives the answer.That part is easy if u take what is being said literally,cronologically and as though an outside person is looking on as the vision unfolds.However, if the vision is given with special understanding of what John the person actually experiencing the vision or dream may be thinking in relation to his own personal circumstance and eperiences,then u may well come up with a different point of view.So that is why I am saying that we may have either a wrong interpretation, or possibly a correct understanding, but it is also false because of misapplication of both Scripture and circumstances around which those sciptures pertain,sometimes archeology can help, unearthing History and I believe God will use anyone if he chooses and/or The Holy Spirit to give us further Revelation as time goes on That is probably why, as I have noticed u can get good prophecy from people whose lives and personal imperfections don’t seem to always agree with our Christian notions of what should be or not be.I personally do not subscribe to the idea that is promulgated by most that all scripture as we understand the Bible as being Is actually word for word, to be inspired.U can see where scribes have added. u can obviously see that where ther are parenthesis shown,but so many people do not even notice in those instances.Also it was not until hundreds of years approx that they decided to include Jude in the so called canon.Where was the inspiration of the Holy Spirit during this time,or weren’t these guys listening.The facts are that they personally decided what scriptures should be included.It seems as though any that were controversial were by their behest left out.I am a reasonable person and over the years I have refused to be forced to agree with and believe what any denomination trots out if I don’t agree.I don’t fall for the tithing bit,I don’t go for the literal seven days of creation idea, nor for the 6000 yrs. idea and many other what I regard as being unproven ideas.I love the Lord Jehovah and he knows it.I was in Jehovah’s Witnesses for approx. seven years from 1968 to 1975.They could not stop me inquiring and thinking for myself, so I eventually departed company, at their behest via a misapplication of A, in my opinion a rather suss piece of writing by The Apostle Paul,when he was saying to treat someone concerned as a tax collector.He probably should have been saying to continue to be firm and patient.towards the brother concerned,rather than to turf them from the congregation as he admonished the church to do.That is why Jw and some others use that text for ‘disciplining and keeping the congregation clean’It also gets rid of pesky objectors,regardless of whether it was in the Church in Pauls Day or in susequent, and to present day church and congregations.A lot of Christian people try to deal with people also by implication that u haven’t gotten blessings because you have left the door open,or not healed because you lack faith etc etc .This is all codswallop,The fact is we don’t know a lot of things and the reasons why and that is that!!Now re Dr Owuor If he is wrong about something then many will say he is a False Prophet, however When King David got up to his shenanighans they say he was a great man of God and that God knew his heart and so on.I see him as on occasion, very whishy washy and wondering, lacking faith, from time, just like the rest of us.But if I were to say this I am quickly labeled heretic or one to watch’ a bit suss.You can feel eyes on you . If u take another person to A meeting somewhere u feel for them, as all of ‘us’ zero on ‘he, the poor lost’ They carry on like they have all been raptured already.That is why I feel That The Lord is telling me that he wants repentance, and re-repentance in the congregations of the Churches as the collective BODY of Christ I believe,as I said to A pleasant JW gentleman in Preston yesterday, that God has got those people represented by the 7000 that had not bowed the knee to Baal,In among all denominations,including among JW who think they are the only ones.Curiosly this gentleman was once Pentecostal,and he said that he either did or still could speak in tongues.I can too, it is something that u can either do or not do.I am an infrequent Church attendee.I will go to any denomination and listen to what they have to say.This is why I feel that we can have a meaningful discussion on this blog.Yours In the LORD and in love, DALLAS

  52. By the way ian vincent, since you have kept my relatively innocuous comment in moderation on your site, and not allowed it to see the light of day, and yet you have added further comment by way of response, I consider you to be nothing more than an opportunist cheapskate.

    The only way to redeem yourself and show some fortitude is to allow that comment on your blog to see the light of day.

    What are you afraid of?

    You come on here and feel free to criticise ministries and blogs, and write on your blog as if you are bold to challenge them, and do not have the decency to allow a person to respond on your site.

    I would give an added response on your blog, but there is no way you have the courage to allow counter criticism, in case you look bad in the eyes of your ‘fans’.

    Not a good look.

  53. Ian Vincent said:

    Someone may be a clone of Kenneth Copeland, and they are believing for their 100 fold return on the seed they’ve sown.

    Now, God may have pity on this pathetic, covetous man, and want to deliver him from his love of money so that he can love Jesus.

    So, what does God do? In spite of this man’s “sowing” into “good soil” so diligently, He causes him to go broke.

    This man’s house of cards comes tumbling down around him.

    He is bewildered. Why, God? Why, KC? Kenneth answers, “You didn’t have enough faith.”

    This man was taught that “sowing and reaping” is a universal law that applies to everyone, whether they know Jesus or not, meaning that God is not a Person, He is a force which anyone can “tap into”, or a “principle” which anyone can apply.

    Then, this man realizes that, despite all his “sowing”, it was GOD who made him go broke (not the devil)to cause him to realize that he was relating to God as an idol.

    Hebrews tells us that such dealings show that we are God’s sons, and if we can “prosper” and be corrupt (like Copeland and other con men) AND GET AWAY WITH IT, it shows that we are illegitimate, and not God’s children.

    That is why so many conmen “prosper” in “Jesus name”, cos they are illegitimate, and not under the Father’s discipline.

    – Ian Vincent above

    I have not thought about this before in the context of Hebrews. Not that I believed the riches of megapreachers were proof that God approved of their teaching. However I had not contemplated that this might at times even show that they are not God’s sons. To be honest, I don’t want to go there – it is ultimately for the Lord to decide as He knows their hearts and I can only speculate.

    But still, it’s worth adding these verses from Hebrews 12 that Ian is referring to:

    5and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
    “MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
    NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

    6FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
    AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.”

    7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

    Definitely shows that we can’t assume that wealth automatically = God’s approval. Especially when we are also faced with verses such as Hebrews 10:35:

    ” 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.

    35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. ”

    In this case, what was promised is ‘a kingdom that cannot be shaken’ (Heb 12:28) – nothing else will remain.

  54. So you fathers out there will be making sure your sons have gutter time so that they don’t become covetous? YOu will take everything away so tat they learn how to steward nothing, and know poverty and lack? Do you think this works?

    Or do you teach your sons good stewardship?

    Do you train your sons to grow up to be kind, generous, God fearing husbands and fathers who work hard, support their family, nurture their children and make sure their needs are taken care of?

    Do you teach them that godliness with contentment is great gain?

    How do you do this? By withholding finance and resources, and telling them the are not trustworthy, or by entrusting them with their keeping, so that they learn to respect all that God makes them stewards of?

    What kind of Father do you think God is?

  55. I would like you to put up a few examples from scripture of God, not the devil, taking everything away from a person to teach them a lesson.

    Job? No, God allowed the devil to test him, but returned everything the devil took twice over, and the test did not last long.

    The Prodigal Son? No, it wasn’t a matter of being taught a lesson of lack, but of poor stewardship on the son’s part. He returned to his father’s home and was given the privileges of a son, not a servant, having been fully restored.

    The rich young ruler? No, Jesus let him go to his wealth and miss out on the greater prize of discipleship. He didn’t strip the rich young ruler of anything to teach him a lesson. He gave him a choice – follow me or your riches.

    Can you find anywhere where God didn’t restore a wayward person to stewardship who repented?

    God is about teaching and training us to be good stewards of his inheritance, of his earth, of his ministry, but he doesn’t do it by taking it way form us, but rather by showing us, from the Word, and mostly by the teaching of Jesus himself, how to be good stewards.

  56. While wanting to stand by and watch this particular argument … they can be quite entertaining when you aren’t the focus ;) … I do think I need to point something out here.

    It is certainly true that riches do not mean that someone is focussed on their personal wealth rather than God.

    It is also certainly true that God definitely does bless individuals with riches. I think of Cliff Richard … he put his entire life and career on the line for Jesus, went through a fallow period and didn’t give up on God during that time and now he is incredibly wealthy.

    However, riches can be a barrier to God. And the rich had a tough time trusting God rather than themselves. Compared to New Testament times, we are all rich. Even the unemployed, in teh western world, can stay at home and watch their 3D TV with surround sound systems while drinking cheap lager and smoking 80 cigarrettes a day.

    That is the crazy theology of prosperity teaching. Take a basic idea (God wants you to prosper) focus on one word (prosper) and in a capitalist society where wealth confers status, this means that God doesn’t merely want you to be well off, but fabulously wealthy.

    Prosper includes money but is so much more than that. It is a word that deals with tasks done for God. God wants us to prosper in everything we do for him. He wants us to be successful. To be fruitful in sharing Jesus with others.

    I see nothing wrong with that.

    Focussing on Kenneth Copeland, who has managed to avoid trouble with the IRS this time round is a red herring really. I don’t think Ian was comparing anyone with KC, I think it was a figure of speech referring to a generic person who followed KC’s teachings rather than JC’s teachings.

    One thing I would say, very clearly.
    God wants us to be good stewards of all that He has given us. We don’t own anything, it all belongs to God. Since we are merely looking after His stuff, giving a set percentage back expecting it to be multiplied and returned doesn’t quite make sense.

    Malachi 3 (again) actually refers to the land of Israel, the actual rain over Israel and the crops that will be produced in Israel. I don’t believe we can apply Malachi 3 to Christians because it deals with Israel. Malachi was calling the Jews to remember their covenant with God through Moses. The promises of blessing that God gave to Israel were conditional.

    Well … we could argue this all night but we won’t get anywhere.

    We are all brothers here. (only Sons inherit, so RavingPente is my ‘brother’ too!)

    Shalom

  57. Kipling “Can you find anywhere where God didnt restore a wayward person to stewardship who repented?”

    How about Moses not being able to enter the promised land? I’m sure he would have repented for striking the rock rather than speaking to it.

    I also dont agree with the interpretation of Job having everything restored. I have children and I know that the loss of one of them would not be made up for in any way by the others, or by future children. Job would have carried that loss to the grave.

  58. Paul’s thorn in the flesh is also applicable to this issue, because even though he asked God for its removal – it was not done.

    Here is God the Father allowing someone to suffer to teach them a wider lesson (Grace is sufficient)

  59. I think you’re stretching things there, wazza2.

    Paul’s thorn in the flesh was a messenger from Satan, not from God. God’s contribution to counter this was the sufficiency of his grace. Paul said he had learned how to abound and how to be abased, how to be content in all circumstances, abundance or lack.

    Moses problem was an issue of anger. How was he taught a lesson? How did he learn from being unable to enter the Promised Land? What has this to do with seedtime and harvest, sowing and reaping? It is an issue of character.

    Job, again, was tempted of the devil, not God. God restored. The devil stole. I agree that his children would have been a great loss, but an you say that this was God’s chastisement? For what? Being a righteous man? How was Job taught a lesson by this? What could he possibly learn from it.

    Was it the chastisement of the Lord? Or was it a test initiated by Satan? Surely the only one who learned anything from this was the devil, who found out that Job would not curse God to his face, as the devil claimed.

    @ Bull

    ‘God wants us to be good stewards of all that He has given us. We don’t own anything, it all belongs to God’

    Exactly right.

  60. @ Kipling

    Re:

    “Not that I believed the riches of megapreachers were proof that God approved of their teaching. However I had not contemplated that this might at times even show that they are not God’s sons. To be honest, I don’t want to go there – it is ultimately for the Lord to decide as He knows their hearts and I can only speculate. ”
    .
    .
    .
    .
    The issue is not whether it’s right for megachurch CEOs, or anyone, to be rich. The issue is that it is sin to get rich by dishonest and corrupt means as ALL the big names in WOF, including Hagin, did.

    .
    .
    .
    Kipling, i’m trying to walk you thru this. You said the law of sowing and reaping applies to everyone.

    You didn’t answer the question, how then, did this law not apply to Jesus and His Apostles?

    Is the reason they were not materially rich bcos they did not apply the law you are referring to? They were poor bcos they failed to sow their finances into the right soil and receive their 100-fold return?

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  61. @ian

    That paragraph wasn’t written by me, but by Bull.

    I said the law of sowing and reaping worked. It is God’s law. Have you tried defying nature yet? Have you attempted a King Canute on a seed sown in good soil?

    You have confused the issue by bringing up Copeland, WoF, and other pet hates of yours, assuming, wrongly, that I am applying their principles. either have I mentioned a 100 fold return, or finances in context with sowing and reaping. You and Bull raised this, but have failed to qualify why.

    I have talked about God’s system o sowing and reaping. I am stating what scripture tells us. The idea of seedtime and harvest is apparent throughout scripture. It was introduced by God, and he is Lord over it all.

    ‘In due season you will reap, if you faint not’.

    The thing is, can you find anywhere in scripture where Jesus, or Paul or other writers associate resources or finances with seed?

    By the way, God has and continues to ‘walk me through’ this.

    Perhaps you should allow him to ‘walk you through’ an understanding of stewardship, too.

  62. @ Kipling

    I will try just one more time to get an answer on this point, then let it be:

    You said the law of sowing and reaping applies to everyone.

    You didn’t answer the question, how then, did this law not apply to Jesus and His Apostles?

    Is the reason they were not materially rich bcos they did not apply the law you are referring to? They were poor bcos they failed to sow their finances into the right soil and receive their 100-fold return?

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  63. @ Kipling

    Re:

    “The thing is, can you find anywhere in scripture where Jesus, or Paul or other writers associate resources or finances with seed?”
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Wasn’t that my whole point?

    They did NOT have the WOF theology of going around sowing finances into good soil, and expecting to get rich bcos of doing that.

    Thanks Kipling for settling the matter.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  64. “Not that I believed the riches of megapreachers were proof that God approved of their teaching. However I had not contemplated that this might at times even show that they are not God’s sons.” – RP

    “The issue is not whether it’s right for megachurch CEOs, or anyone, to be rich. The issue is that it is sin to get rich by dishonest and corrupt means as ALL the big names in WOF, including Hagin, did.” – IV

    Yes. I hope my words weren’t taken to imply that being rich is a sin.

    The trouble with blogging is you have to be careful not to say what you don’t mean, but also sometimes have to write twice as much to make sure you aren’t taken further than you intend to be taken.

    Yes, acquiring riches via corruption is sin. Just because something is legal does not mean it’s ethical. Copeland has done nothing illegal.

    But many of us regard teaching that people ‘should’ tithe or give to already rich institutions as unethical, which I guess is sin. So to become rich as a result and remain undisciplined could be a fulfillment of the scripture in Hebrews re not being God’s son. And again, I said ‘could’ because I’m not the one judging and apportioning discipline.

    But I do personally regard that kind of teaching as corrupt, whether or not the person realises what they are doing or not. And I hope that God in his mercy releases people from the bondage of belief in that kind of teaching.

    It is bondage.

    Once a pastor starts to go down the road of teaching tithing, or focussing on raising funds, they then need to maintain that focus. It’s like a drug addiction. It doesn’t seem harmful at first – it seems helpful and good. But they become dependent on funds raised in that fashion, and if it can’t be maintained, their ministry will suffer. So it becomes necessary to maintain an emphasis on so-called stewardship – which isn’t really stewardship at all, but a method of getting people to direct their funds to their churches programs. The assumption, culturally implicit and sometimes stated, is that this is the most important form of Christian giving.

    Yet the bible talks about giving to the poor in the community, not about maintaining buildings or creating them. Real stewardship should take this into account. How many mentions are there in the NT about giving to the poor, and how many about us giving tithes? (None about us tithing; only to the Jews under the law.) This emphasis on looking after the poor or widows is consistent in the OT as well. It is also a result of compassion and love – written in our hearts. This is what needs to guide our stewardship. Yet it is taught in these places that you do these things AFTER you have tithed to your church. Even if it concerns looking after poor in your own family or next door neighbours.

    Being free of tithing or even a sense of obligation to use 10% as a benchmark for church giving, releases us from bondage and frees us to be guided by compassion and love in our giving. Sometimes, this will result in us giving to church programs; other times, elsewhere. But we are guided by what the Lord has put in our hearts, not by a man-interpolated guideline.

    So this does not mean that we do not give to our church if we attend one – in fact it means we do, because we don’t want those who serve us to suffer as a result of lack of income. But it does mean that we don’t need the tithing doctrine and that churches have defined the concept of stewardship to suit their own interests in many cases.

  65. @ian

    ‘They did NOT have the WOF theology of going around sowing finances into good soil, and expecting to get rich bcos of doing that.’

    That was always your own straw-man argument. Nothing to do with anything I was talking about. You beat yourself in an argument! Big deal!

    What makes you say that the Apostles were poor?

    As for Jesus:

    ‘For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.’

    The context? Stewardship of finance – next verses:

    ‘And in this I give advice: It is to your advantage not only to be doing what you began and were desiring to do a year ago; but now you also must complete the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to desire it, so there also may be a completion out of what you have. For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have. For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened; but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack–that there may be equality. As it is written, “He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.”’

    I offered you the opportunity to locate and quote scripture which associated financial giving with sowing seed. There are some. Can you find them? Will you try?

  66. “I think you’re stretching things there, wazza2.

    Paul’s thorn in the flesh was a messenger from Satan, not from God. God’s contribution to counter this was the sufficiency of his grace. Paul said he had learned how to abound and how to be abased, how to be content in all circumstances, abundance or lack.” – Kipling

    This is a wonderful example of God working things for good. Of course God allowed Paul to suffer (wazza2 is correct here) – but He worked it for good. This is what He does – He transforms and redeems us through suffering.

    Obviously the greatest transformation is that of Christ’s suffering into our salvation.

    To expect that what we regard as suffering will be removed because from our perspective it is ‘bad’ is not biblical. There is nothing wrong with us praying or asking for it to be removed though.

  67. “To expect that what we regard as suffering will be removed because from our perspective it is ‘bad’ is not biblical. There is nothing wrong with us praying or asking for it to be removed though.” – RP

    Continuing with that thought – praying that we will be given the strength to work through the suffering WITH Christ is also good. I find this most encouraging. (The Lord is my Shepherd…)

    We know that extreme church cultures that consistently regard suffering or adversity as signs of God’s disapproval, rather than as a normal part of life, will try to deny those things. They will regard them as bad and pray commandingly against them, or blame their occurrence on a lack of faith.

    Maybe a pastor’s church plant or someone’s business fails. It is his lack of faith. (Not some problem with the idea in the first place, or something to do with the marketplace or a person’s lack of experience for example.)

    In a way, this attitude is a form of rebellion, even though it is dressed up as presenting a very positive faith.

    It is rebellious when it denies the demonstrated ability of God to discipline or teach and transform us and society through suffering. It fails to see this pattern throughout scripture and misinterprets the manner of the victory Christ achieved on the Cross.

    As it is rebellious, it will result in suffering – the very thing it denies. Which is probably why most people move on from it after a while. And why most churches can’t maintain that kind of extreme stance in the long run.

  68. @ian vincent,

    I have avoided nothing. I asked for more evidence from you.

    You claim the Apostles were poor. Where do you get this from? You promised to ‘walk me through’ this. I can’t see that they were at all times poor.

    We know that Paul supplied to his own needs through what has come to be know as tent ministry, and, at times, enjoyed abundance, and at others endured lack.

    We do not know much about how other Apostles were supplied, except that Paul says that it is right for the church to supply to their minister’s needs, using metaphors, that the ‘ox that treads the corn should not be muzzled’, ‘the farmer should be the first to partake of the crop’, and that, as the Levitical priesthood had heir familial needs met by the nation they served at the altar, so those who spend their time studying and teaching the Word should be taken care of by the people they minister to, and in fact, were worthy of double honour. So this is Paul’s teaching on the matter.

    Perhaps you have some scriptural evidence to inform us of the poverty of the Apostles.

    I’m not saying you’re entirely wrong, but I can’t see where we are told they were, at all times, poor, as if that should b the norm for all ministers of the Word, and all believers. Paul said he had lack at times, but not always. The main criteria for godliness was contentment, whether we are abased or abound.

  69. You see, ian, you make these major, sweeping claims as if they are absolutes, but when asked to back them up in the simplest and most obvious way, through scripture reference, you back away.

    I put it to you that you have a concept of stewardship which doesn’t entirely match up with the Word.

    As I said from the beginning of this discussion, there are many applications of giving.

    You seem to be basing your theology of stewardship on the poverty vows of Francis of Assisi. Poverty is not evidence of holiness, any more than abundance is.

    Abraham was a very wealthy man, and God called him righteous, and continued to bless him. Why? Because he was a good steward of all God gave him.

    Job, in the beginning and in the end of his life, was a very wealthy man, and God considered him righteous. It’s not what you have or don’t have, it’s what you do with it that counts. ‘Honour God with all your possessions, and with the first fruits of your increase…’

    With respect, perhaps your own sense of self-mistrust with finances has made you consider all to be untrustworthy. As Bull points out, most of us in the West are rich compared to the rest of the world. This can be a burden as well as a blessing.

    Maybe in India you live in poverty to work amongst the poor, and that is admirable, but casting your mission and ministry unto others is an error. We are to be all things to all men in order to win them, albeit without compromise of truth.

    What God has told you to do, do. There may be someone in a wealthy land who is a good steward of God’s resources, and has the gift of liberality, who is being spoken to right now to assist someone like you in a poor region of the earth to lift the people out of poverty, and be an abundant blesser of those in need. We all have different gifts, and God equips us to use them.

  70. And having food and clothing let us be with these things content.

    But

    **they that desire to be rich**

    fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which plunge men into destruction and perdition.

    For the love of money is the root of all evil:

    which while some **coveted after**,

    **they have erred from the faith**

    , and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
    (1Tim 6:8-10)

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  71. Of course, ian, and for every verse admonishing against pursuing riches over God, there are several which speak of the blessing, abundance and increase of God which comes by grace.

    The fact is, in the bigger picture, that without the agricultural and horticultural industries we would all starve and die. God, through Adam’s sin, made us farmers to work with the sweat of our brow to draw a yield from the earth. Of course, these day we pay others to sweat for us, but the principle is the same.

    We rely on seedtime and harvest for our very existence. God gave this blessing of sowing and reaping to the people he created. Those farmers who are very successful, combined, feed nations.

    Honouring God with the first-fruits of our increase is just a blessed thing to do, but how few do so.

    They miss giving thanks to the very One who sustains their lives and the lives of those who buy their produce in the market place. Regardless, God’s seedtime and harvest principles work for the just and the unjust. I believe that the unjust, unjustly benefit from God’s desire to bless the just.

    But to speak like it is not God’s blessing to open the windows of heaven on our crops and ensure good harvests because he prefers us not to be sustained by his goodness seems rather ungrateful to me. To advocate poverty over harvest is to deny God’s will in action on he land.

    To dismiss the admonition in Malachi 3:10 as a mere OT legalism and not understand that even today we need the rains of heaven to sustain crops, the former rain and the latter rain, is to base all of life on a legalistic doctrinal stance completely devoid of common virtue. Read beyond your OT/NT law/grace separation into God’s message of remembering to bring him appreciation for his supply and support, the holiness of the firstborn to his plan of redemption, and his means of empowering his Household of Faith.

    Just because the majority of us go down to the Supermarket, or to the market stalls to buy the fruits of harvest reaped on our behalf by hard working farmers, doesn’t mean that we don’t need, just as much today as ever, good conditions for our crops and livestock seems to me to be the shortsightedness of city dwellers. How did it hurt us to give thanks and bring an offering?

    Not that I’m advocating the tithe as a legal requirement under the New Testament, but it looks to me like pure selfishness to fail to acknowledge God’s blessing on the land by refusing to honour him with our substance and with the first-fruits of our increase, with the best portion of all God has poured out on us to sustain us, simply because we fail to see the Spirit of the Word and choose the letter as our excuse to withhold.

    God blesses the land for many reasons – repentance, prayer, intercession, righteousness, and other ways, including honouring him.

    Offerings speak of our strong appreciation of his provision. They are seed in his storehouses. They honour him and his ways.

  72. Further to what I said previously, there’s that sense of the salary earners’ entitlement, isn’t there, whereby people have an expectation that we’ve worked hard all week and come home with our well earned pay-packet, and expect to be able to go to the Supermarket and find the best quality fruit and vegetables, and every consumer driven necessity, and miss the point that it has taken seedtime and harvest principles of God to produce just about every item on the shelves, and that it is God’s blessing on he land which is our provision in every case.

    But we are so detached from the land that our first contact with produce is the Supermarket, where everything is laid out for us in precision; homogenised, colour coordinated splendour, labelled and identified.

    No wonder we fail to see God’s hand in our provision. Unlike the farmer, we are not present at every phase of crop production, ploughing, watering, seeding, nurturing, reaping, marketing. We do not see God at work on the produce, bringing increase, growing the crop, is Word in action on every seed sown. We do not see God’s provision of seasonal rains, photosynthesis, fertilisation, etc.

    So why should we give thanks, or bring an offering, when all we see is the inside of Woolworth’s or Cole’s, the great daily harvest festival to merchandising. What do they have to do with God’s provision? Well, even they don’t have a market without God’s seedtime and harvest principles.

    So the Western way is entitlement. The Christian way is acknowledgement of God’s grace – undeserved favour, blessing without conditions, love as God’s Person and character.

    Honouring him, then, is a natural, obvious, cheerful thing to those who appreciate the provision of God.

  73. You guys amuse me,I have just read thru your arguments ,for and against your respective positions on tithing and sowing and reaping.For each text and/or passages of scripture that u deal with ,in the main I can have a different interpretation and/or understanding.The moderator of this post keeps finding fault with my lack of paragraphs.Legalistic:which is more important,my message or being picky with my formatting or my grammar?How many of the poor and sick could be assisted,alluded by you to have needed to be given alms in the OT and in the Good News of the Gospel’s period.The early Church argued over all kinds of things, those that didn’t agree with Paul, went one way and paul’s followers wer called those of the PAULINE persuasion.This situation has continued to this very day.Let us be thankful, we all have common belief in our Great Saviour,Jehovah or Yahweh and His Son Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.Even Paul admonished that intricate argument leads nowhere.God Bless us all Guys.Dallas Johnson.

  74. REPENT AND MAKE STRAIGHT YOUR WAYS TIME IS OVER ! PREPARE IN REPENTANCE AND ABSOLUTE HOLINESS RIGHTEOUSNESS… THINK ABOUT YOUR OWN GOWN/GARMENT…IS IT SPOTLESS AND CLEAN. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS AGAIN… PREPARE FOR THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH…ALL PEOPLE/ BLOGGERS.

  75. RE:

    “The early Church argued over all kinds of things, those that didn’t agree with Paul, went one way and paul’s followers wer called those of the PAULINE persuasion.This situation has continued to this very day.”
    .
    .
    .
    True, BUT you need to add that those who rejected Paul’s Apostleship, then, turned out to be wolves, and it’s the same today.

    As to the thing about writing in block, without spaces or paragraphs. It’s just a bit of friendly practical advice (i think) and not a put down.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  76. A wall of text is very difficult to read actually. The spaces give a practical rest to the eyes as focussing on closely packed text I find is tough on my aging retinas.

    and …

    REPENT YOU BLOGGERS!!!

    Is that cockney rhyming slang?

    trouble’n’strife = wife
    apples’n’pairs = stairs
    merchant bankers = well, you get the picture …

    Shalom

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  78. It’s interesting to see what the comment section on a post regarding a prophecy on a tsunami in Australia morphed into. I didn’t see one mention that there actually WAS a tsunami with severe flooding in Australia just one month after this post was made.

  79. Funny. I’m pretty sure California hasn’t been wiped out and I can’t recall a tsunami wiping out the west coast of the US.

    By the way. You wouldn’t happen to know the Gold Lotto numbers for this week.

  80. You know ith all the suffering and problems in the world why is it that when God speaks to someone it’s about getting a car parking spot or wiping out New Zealand.

  81. but arent all the old testiment prophets in sheol- which is the grave, so how can this owuor meet them if they are all in the grave!

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