I’m sorry – I know I said I wanted to move on from the whole sexuality debate…and I really do;nt mind if no one comments on this post. But please read both the article I am posting and the one I link to, which is the forward of the book recently launched by the Honorable Justice Michael Kirby.
I am going to buy this book and do a review here as soon as I’ve read it.
In the Preface to Five Uneasy Pieces, Mark Burton writes;
…none of these scholars [those whose work were drawn together by the editor of Five Pieces]appears attracted to either wooden readings of the texts, nor to knock-down answers to complex questions: that many contemporary Christians in their observation and experience lead lives of devotion and faith, demonstrating what St Paul styled ‘the fruit of the Spirit’—while living lives that are ‘ differently ordered’ in loving, same-sex relationships—will not allow for over-simplification which ignores a living reality.
I implore you to have a read the article and linked prefaces etc, and if you can, get a copy of this book and have a read of it. I believe that this book will come otbe known as a very important turning point in the road to understanding and acceptance of Gay and Lesbian Christians.
Here is the Preface by Mark Burton, Foreword by William Countryman and Introduction by Michael Kirby
Cause still has long way to go, says gay priest
Barney Zwartz
November 29, 2011
- Read later
Anglican priest Nigel Wright recently edited a book, Five Uneasy Pieces, on the subject of homosexuality and the church. Photo: Vince Caligiuri
TWENTY-FIVE years ago, in an act of considerable moral courage, Nigel Wright became the first Melbourne Anglican priest to identify himself as gay.
”I came out at a parish council planning weekend when I was priest in charge at Thomastown-Epping. The council said with one voice, ‘tell us something we don’t know’,” Mr Wright recalled yesterday.
A quarter of a century on, he says, the homosexual cause has made considerable progress in the secular realm but the ”Holy Spirit is fettered” in the church, whose influence remains largely ”pernicious”. Mr Wright, 64, believes the church remains stuck with a construction of homosexuality as evil that has created suspicion, prejudice, hatred, suicide and even murder.
Advertisement: Story continues belowIn an effort to overturn that interpretation, he has edited a book,Five Uneasy Pieces, to be launched tomorrow, in which five Anglican scholars look at the key biblical texts usually cited as condemning homosexuality (found in Genesis, Leviticus, Romans, 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy).
”We don’t understand the milieu in which these texts were written. It’s too easy to say it’s about homosexuality because we ought to despise homosexuals. Many are about property rights or hospitality or abuse of power or worshipping other gods,” he says.
”The church needs to do some serious work on this after the 1998 Lambeth Conference [a 10-yearly gathering of the world's Anglican bishops] when the bishops were sent home to listen. I can’t see much evidence that there’s been much listening, to their discredit.”
The worldwide Anglican Church has since almost torn itself apart in its fierce divisions over sexuality. Mr Wright thinks it has gone backwards in the past few years but so, he says, has the Roman Catholic Church.
An expert and published author on clerical clothing, he says Pope Benedict’s penchant for lace and silk, and even a new fur-trimmed cape, is theological evidence that he is ”on a trip down memory lane” into theological conservatism.
Mr Wright’s father and grandfather were Anglican priests and a forebear, Thomas Herring, was an 18th-century Archbishop of Canterbury.
”It’s like going into the family business,” he says.
It is coincidence, Mr Wright says – but a welcome one – that the book is being published two days before the national Labor Party conference in Sydney at which same-sex marriage is expected to be a key debate.
It takes its title from the effect of the five texts – ”uneasy pieces of Scripture for people who are not heterosexual” – and because the method of interpretation will make some people uneasy, he says. It is also a nod to gay Australian literary great Patrick White, who wrote Three Uneasy Pieces.
He plans to send his book to some Labor MPs, when he works out which ones. Also on his mailing list is the Archbishop of Canterbury and Lilydale Baptist Church minister Matt Glover whose church, The Age reported on Sunday, is in turmoil over his support for same-sex marriage.
Anglican priest Nigel Wright recently edited a book, Five Uneasy Pieces, on the subject of homosexuality and the church. Photo: Vince Caligiuri
“I’m sorry – I know I said I wanted to move on from the whole sexuality debate…”
lol
That was a good natured laugh.
Don’t worry, I don’t think the issue is going away, so I see nothing wrong with discussing it.
‘An expert and published author on clerical clothing, [Nigel] says Pope Benedict’s penchant for lace and silk, and even a new fur-trimmed cape, is theological evidence that he is ”on a trip down memory lane” into theological conservatism.’
It’s good to get the low-down on the pope’s tastes in matters sartorial, but what about Nigel? Does he also favour lace and silk? Does he fancy fur? (Perhaps he likes to don something a little racy under his vestments and indulge in some harmless fantasies when he is ministering to the young males in his flock).
Now Now, CCCer, dont let your imagination run away with you. Why don’t you get your thoughts above the navel and try to engage intellectually with the argument.
Anonymouse or CCCer – whoever you are, that comment is repugnant and disgusting. I wold rather you kept your bile to yourself.
Do you indulge in harmless fantasies about young females in your flock…oh that’s right, you don’t have a flock do you…just a small mind, that if i were being psychoanalytical points to some disturbing patterns in your own thoughts.
Vestments…as much as you wise and so so very modern folk like to mock them have a deep theological meaning to those who use them and those who bother to do any research at all about what they are about. So easy to mock and malign rather than be open and listen to others isn’t it.
“Why don’t you [...] try to engage intellectually with the argument”.
No argument here, just the pathetic sight of an ageing queen who is tilting at theological windmills in trying to justify his perverted behaviour.
“I wo[u]ld rather you[r] kept your bile to yourself.”
You’re the one who wanted to move on from the sexuality “debate”, but wasn’t quite able to. Perhaps it really is time you took up a new cause celebre (preferably one that doesn’t require you to contend with God and contradict His word).
@ Anon – something for Greg to think about…
“Liberalism sees the happiness of man as the primary purpose of life and religion. Over against this, conservative, Biblical Christianity sees the glory of God and our obedient service to Him to that end as the primary purpose of life.”
Hello Margot,
Quite so.
I think it’s interesting that Greg sees my comment as “repugnant and disgusting”, but he doesn’t have any problems at all with the sort of behaviour that people like Nigel indulge in. An interesting example of seriously warped values.
Where will all the Nigels of this world hide when Jesus returns in glory?
Why would I have a proem with nigels when I don’t have a problem with mine?
Margot why are the two mutually exclusive why can’t you desire the glory of god and the happiness and fulfillment of human beings?
Ccc’er youre comment is repugnant because you tie homosexualility to pederasty where there is no obvious nor known connection? Quite simply you’re a dick.
The trouble with you amd Margot (and I do love you Margot) is that neither of you can actually deal with am idea with your own thoughts.
That’s funny Greg, when you’re posting an article of another man’s thoughts! If I say what I really think, you will just deny, deny, deny the truths of scripture because those Truths can’t dovetail with your beliefs.
@ Greg – bottomline I have more in common with Penn Jillette than you do!
Not a long clip but it gets interesting around the 4 min mark…
I was cornered by a man just like Jillette the other day for over half an hour as he waffled on about…I don’t know, actually…something he thought was extremely profound and obvious (to him, at least) about the universe and human involvement, some super goddiness or other which was inner consciousness, and realities which weren’t really real, and, as he went on and on in this zen wizardry I realised he was pouring out the devil’s reason and rhetoric of obscure logic which sounded profound but amounted to nothing, especially for a (somewhat trapped) listener who actually reads and grasps what the Bible is talking about and knows when he is face to face with psychobabble.
These people are wise in their own eyes.
When I talk about the devil’s logic, I am talking about the Bible’s accuser and the adversary, who doesn’t actually appear in a red suit, pitch fork and horns, but always shows up in someone who looks and sounds quite sane and reasonable, hip, contemporary, and articulate in a soulish way.
I get what he says about the condescension of tolerance, and there is always an element of truth to what the adversary says through his vessels, but the rest of his buddha jargon is so self-occupied and spurious that it was an effort to arrive at the four minute mark to hear what he was gong to say. I wonder how he’ll explain it all way to God when he stands before the Judgement Seat to give an account for his words.
And the same for poor old Nigel, who has delved, probably for years, into his logic and broken theology to find justification for the sin which has confronted him and occupied his energies without ever being dealt with or removed form his life, and the hardship of his own temptation which he has been unable to overcome, until he is converted into another spokesperson for his conqueror the accuser.
it must have been an agonising life for the man, but to surrender to the weight which so easily besets him rather than surrendering to the High Priest of our confession to empower him to break free and run free is a tragedy of exhausting proportions.
I personally won’t judge him because we all have weights we must gain God’s help to have removed, but I will, and must, for conscience sake, judge any temptation to sin which is part of the journey we all take, and which we all must overcome through the blood and cross of Jesus.
To condone sin is to become a tool of the adversary, and deny the cross which provides both forgiveness for sin and the power to escape from it.
Jillette doesn’t know the power of the cross, and only knows religion, not the Saviour. His logic reveals his own slavery to flawed reason and builds a wall of pride guarded by words which deny truth through half truths.
Interesting listening to a lecture on Luther’s theology of the cross. Perhaps Greg could explain why he prefers the “theology of glory”
“A theologian of glory calls evil good and good evil. A theologian of the cross calls the things what it actually is.”
So Greg,
Where do you think Nigel will hide when Jesus returns?
And I think Steve completely missed the point of the Penn Jillette clip…..hopefully Greg doesn’t.
Completely different topic, but one day maybe someone could write an article on Christians and govt, in democracies. (Watching the news re your PM drama between Julia and Kev).
Where does honor the King, and obey those in authority, and God sets those in authority..etc kind of verses fit in with faceless men, leadership coups, republican debates etc?
Do you guys pray about your govt? For someone to win the Labor Party leadership etc?
(Not wanting a debate on who is right or wrong – but Christians and their responsibility to pray/support (or reject) the PM/President.
Or do you stay right away from it.
Sorry, don’t know where else to put requests like this…
@Margot – thanks for the 4 min mark tip on that video. Interesting.
We pray for government specifically every week, local government leaders by name. We pray for God’s will be done (and of course it always is). Daniel 2:20-23
@ SM – some cut and paste on governing
The fact that God is sovereign over our rulers is usually not evident to us as we view their decisions and actions. For the most part, government officials and legislative bodies do their work quite apart from any intent to carry out the will of God, but nevertheless they do exactly that. We should remember that for those experiencing the events recorded in the Scriptures, God’s hand was usually no more apparent to them in those events than it is to us today.
There are several truths concerning government that stand out in the Scriptures. God in His sovereignty has established government for the good of all people (Rom. 13:1-4; I Tim. 2:1,2). God determines who rules those governments (Dan. 4:17,32). God also determines when these people will rule (Dan. 4:28-37; Isa. 40:23,24). Finally, God rules in decisions that rulers make (II Sam. 16:23; 17:14; Judges 7:2,3,22; I Sam. 14:6,15,20; I Kings 20:28,29; II Kings 5:1; II Chron. 13:14-16; Prov. 21:31; and Psalms 20:7; 33:16,17; 44:6.)
Margot, making another point is hardly missing the point. Neither is returning to the original discussion focus.
I was reminded of a person with similar ideology who cornered me for an uncomfortable amount of time recently with an illogical rendering of how the universe swings around warped logic, which is something false theology does with its own aims, including the bending of scriptural evidence on God’s aversion to men and women engaging in homosexual and lesbian acts.
Of course, you’d never dream of changing the subject or going off topic, would you?
I thought what I wrote actually segued back to the original theme. Greg’s theology wasn’t actually the talking point.
Greg’s “theology” is the foundation of all these posts on homosexuality and that the real point. He doesn’t affirm the things that you and I do affirm and why he continues to bring up the topic is perhaps because he “ministers” to homosexuals and tells them it’s ok and God supports their lifestyle. Is that right Greg?
That’s taking the Lords name in vain.
Margot, I think what Greg is saying is that it would be beneficial to read your own personal perspective on occasion rather than drag and drop portions of other people’s material, however profound they might seem.
Greg does give his own perspective after he’s put up a post, in which it is perfectly acceptable to quote other authors.
When you constantly add in quotes in the commentary from other authors we can never actually discuss issues with you, only with the people you quote from, who can never respond because they are not the ones commenting. That is very frustrating, and often changes the flow of the commentary.
That’s OK, because obviously they represent you perspective (although you sometimes say it’s not entirely your opinion), but it would be interesting to see what you have to say, and discuss issues with you.
Greg, I don’t think the happiness and fulfilment of human beings are included in God’s mandate to wipe out sin when they includes acts which are an aversion to him.
God doesn’t make decisions based on our desires, but n his will for our lives. The word ‘repent’ has more to do with us changing than being sorry. Sorry’s good, and a start, but it means nothing without a change of heart, character and actions.
On happiness and fulfilment, neither works until we’re pleasing God.
What’s the point Steve? How often have I seen, let’s say Bones, cut and paste, and others too. But it’s me in your firing line?
I read a lot, I spend 4-5 hours a day listening to sermons, lectures etc on an IPod and am greatly influenced and encouraged by what I read and hear.
Want me to go away Steve? I actually read or have studied all the things I quote. Having just spent this morning studying through Luther’s Heidelberg Disputation, put me in mind of Greg’s seeming to hold to a theology of glory (which allows him to affirm homosexuality) ….but that’s off topic? I don’t think so.
@ SM – consider yourself included in Steve’s reprimand for going off topic
And once again I hope Greg gets the point of Penn Jillette’s view of liberal Christians.
Bones often gives his own opinion and we have had many a discussion. I don’t mind how you debate in way way shape or form. I was merely stating what I saw of Greg’s meaning when he challenged cut’n'paste.
I guess I’m saying we’re interested in what margot has to say! And we all read too. That’s what shapes our opinion and logic.
Sometimes you put up a quote, and, when I challenge its content, you’ll say that wasn’t your perspective (cessationism), or that you’d rather their ‘expertise’ than mine any day, which is condescending, and hard to get out of as a put down, since they’re known and I’m a nobody. Not a nice way to discuss stuff, really.
Penn Jillette is, at best, a spiritualist magician. Why would any Christian bother with his view of anything?
SM very often gives his won perspective, and is usually on thread and thought provoking, but with his own thoughts.
Anyway, do it the way you like, margot. I think Greg was being encouraging rather than negative about your views, as am I.
“Sometimes you put up a quote, and, when I challenge its content, you’ll say that wasn’t your perspective (cessationism), or that you’d rather their ‘expertise’ than mine any day, which is condescending, and hard to get out of as a put down, since they’re known and I’m a nobody. Not a nice way to discuss stuff, really.”
Rubbish (now who is going off topic?!) – you just see what you want to see.
To be frank, I’ve noticing more aggression and unpleasantness coming from your corner when anyone disagrees with you or takes a good-humoured shot at you (such as Anon).
Go back and read through some of your posts in response to others and you may just see it….
“Anyway, do it the way you like, margot. I think Greg was being encouraging rather than negative about your views, as am I.”
Greg and I are “friends” apart from here and I have a lot of respect for him as a person.
And I find Penn Jillette to be a very good social commentator (for an atheist) – far more in tune with the hypocrisy of a lot of Christians today. God used an ass, and He can use Jillette.
Greg says – “I implore you to have a read the article and linked prefaces etc, and if you can, get a copy of this book and have a read of it. I believe that this book will come to be known as a very important turning point in the road to understanding and acceptance of Gay and Lesbian Christians.”
I accept and love a lot of different people in my circle including gays just as they accept me with all my failings, but I won’t condone their lifestyle or accept it as God-blessed (and they know that and accept and respect my views, though they are atheists too)
I implore everyone to get deeper into God’s Word and come to an understanding of the acceptance we have in Christ as we turn, in repentance, from our sinful lifestyles, whether they be homosexuality, adultery, theft, lying, etc etc.
And not turn back to them as the false teachers (Nigel Wright) in 2 Peter 2:22 – “It has happened to them according to the true proverb, ‘a dog returns to its own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
Seducing others away in an unbiblical attempt to fulfill their own evil desires. But we don’t want to hear that these desires are evil (not just homosexual acts) do we? But God says they are….
In response to Greg’s must-read book, I offer this book for your perusal..
“Love Flowed Down”
http://bridgeofhopeministry.com/Welcome.html
And as seems to be the case for me, providentially I’m listening to the author of “Love Flowed Down” today as part of my daily line-up of podcasts…funny how this happens.
http://ruthatbohm.wordpress.com/
“We should remember that for those experiencing the events recorded in the Scriptures, God’s hand was usually no more apparent to them in those events than it is to us today.”
Thanks for that gem Margot.
OK, back to topic. I guess the point of the article that Greg posted is simply that homosexual behavior is not sin – never was, and still isn’t according to these scholars’ reading of the bible.
SM that is exactly the point.
I appreciate the study that these theologians have done and recognize that their knowledge of the original languages and historical settings surpasses mine.
But just a question for all of you. Do you think you get get a person who wasn’t familiar with this debate, or wasn’t facing the situation where a loved one had come out as gay, get them to read it through and have them tell you that two christian men could get married?
This in itself is not a theological argument – but I really don’t think American and Australia Christians or non-Christians have any idea how much homosexuality has been presented as acceptable and how unusual that is globally speaking.
i.e I still say that in most of the world, telling people that two women could get married or live together in a sexual relationship would be met with total shock. Even more so if you said they could be pastors of a church. I understand that the simple answer from some of you is that the US and other countries are more enlightened.
There have been many “heroes” or saints in the Christian church. People of varying theologies and living in different eras who we look at as having had a deep walk with God. From some of the church fathers right to this day.
Does anyone know of a person who has been an inspiration to others who was living in a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex?
(This is not said with sarcasm).
I’ve made my position on this topic clear so I won’t add to it. Simply put, I don’t believe a person can walk with a pure heart before God and be continually being filled with the Holy Spirit but be having sex with someone other than your spouse.I include looking at pornography as something a Christian shouldn’t do either. There MAY be very few people who actually live their lives having only having sex with their spouse – but that doesn’t make it less of a biblical standard.
Given the numbers of Christians and non-Christians who claim to have had no romantic/sexual interest in the opposite sex even from a very young age though, I’m willing to study the argument again . (Sometimes it takes a few times to discover truth, when you have believed a certain way for so long). It would be a massive worldview change for me though.
And you agree with those scholars, right Greg?
“[...] the point of the article that Greg posted is simply that homosexual behavior is not sin – never was, and still isn’t according to these scholars’ reading of the bible.”
Some things to remember about “scholars”:
Don’t let your schooling interfere with your education.
Keep in mind that an academic is someone who has been educated beyond their intelligence.
The Pharisees and teachers of the law were the scholars of their day (and guess where most of them are now…)
@ SM – can I be inspired by my nephew (living in with someone he calls his viking lover)? Yes, he’s inspiring in how he’s carving out a life for himself in spite of prejudices surrounding almost all he does (he loves to knit
)
He’s a young 42, he’s handsome, he’s extremely intelligent (made a fortune developing programs in the early days of Microsoft.)
He’s inspires me for the joy he finds in life living on a farm in rural France (even as a committed atheist gay activist) His blog is one I visit every day. He has a unique ability to make one appreciate the simple when we chase after more material (even as Christians).
So you see, there a side to the gay issue I really understand personally, but without Christ, without repentance – he’s lost. So we pray.
@ SM – listening to ex lesbian Ruth Christian today, she sees no problem with the claim “born that way” even for herself. What she did recognise was her sin nature and her need of a saviour and the scriptures convicted her. It took about 3 years for the desire to fall away but in that time constantly brought it to Christ.
She also makes it quite clear there are 1000′s like her who have come out of the gay lifestyle and the gay community refuse to acknowledge that fact.
My nephew’s blog and his “Viking” wearing the jumper he knitted, further down the blog.
http://mikenbondi.blogspot.com.au/
It was for me – I was once of te more conservative view that it was sin…quite simple black and white. My mind was changed over a long period of time and self reflection and seeking the truth in scripture.
I had this change in time for one of my own sons to come out to me as gay, and I thank God that my world view had been changed for I hate to think what I might have said to him or how our relationship might have been otherwise. I have not based my acceptance on his coming out, as I had moved to that view long before I knew he was gay.
love the dogs and cats photo.
Youre right Margot – handsome…bastard..and rich you say…even bastarder – young rich and handsome and living in France – with beautiful cats and dogs – hate him
references Margot – references – anyone can say that there are 1000′s but that doesn’t make it true.
@ Greg – yes, you’re right. References, proof, but that’s her ministry and I’m sure as a Christian, at some point, we take her word, as she is actively involved in ministering to the gay community.
Margot,
“[...] I’m sure as a Christian, at some point, we take her word [...]”
Since I know that Steve is reading, I’ll refrain from asking how many churches C3 *claim* to have “planted” around the world.
(Damn – did I just post that?)
point taken. Would you say that of Benny
HillHinn and his claims of healings? Let’s take himat his word?LOL!
Have you got a link to her ministry at all Margot?
@ Greg – back up at 11:45 (has her testimony) and again at 11:48 – being her blog.
@ Greg – do we have to take your word that the bible doesn’t really say what it means, and mean what it says, about homosexuality?
And I didn’t know about her until I listened to her interview today (because it happened to be in my podcast rotation though I had heard about the book “Love Flowed Down”.)
We are good friends with a guy whose ex-partner had HIV (he doesn’t), now happily married with a brood of kids. People still think he’s gay because of his mannerisms and he makes a great cocktail!
Oh, the prejudices we carry…..
Greg’s got a point. It’s sad, but you really have to check out Christians (and ministers – maybe esp ministers?!) when they throw facts and figures around.
Sometimes it’s like the church life is like one giant chinese whispers game…
We need an urban legends website. I seem to get lots of emails from Christians containing crazy stuff and am one of the few who bothers to ask, “Is that really true?”
“People still think he’s gay because of his mannerisms”
Actually …..what is it with the stereotypical gay way of talking thing?
”We need an urban legends website”.
http://www.snopes.com
Sorry, I meant a Christian urban legends website.
Church legends website?
Kingdom legends website?
but i think you’re supposed to call it “the house” now right.
as in “Awesome. Just love the house”.
I recall there once was a story doing the rounds about how NASA had found a day missing in the line up of the stars by using one of their super computers:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/1998/04/20/nasa-missing-day
http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.asp
http://www.truthorfiction.com/ – been around for years.
@ Greg – random insults from a generally good friend (me).
http://tyler.rasmussen.name.s80883.gridserver.com/luther/
Moving from tolerance to reconciliation…
http://www.dailylife.com.au/life-and-love/i-hugged-a-man-in-his-underwear-20120301-1u4ya.html#utm_source=FD&utm_medium=masthead&utm_campaign=strap2