Offerings to False Gods

A cornucopia of offerings take place at megachurch conferences for visiting speakers. Some of these offerings are touted as ‘miracle offerings’. Others are touted as ‘love offerings’. These are in addition to the weekly ‘tithe and offering’ that most churches take up.

Do we have a responsibility to withhold our cash where there is false teaching? I think we do. Otherwise we find ourselves supporting ministries which are contrary to the gospel. So I would be unable to give to a ‘miracle offering’ where the miracle is dependent upon me donating – to me this is peddling the gospel and is unscriptural. And definitely nothing to a love offering for a false teacher. This is like giving an offering to a false god.

What about when our own home church pastors start preaching what we believe is false doctrine on a regular basis – or keeps on inviting or promoting speakers who speak falsehood? Yet we still for whatever reason attend the church. To what extent are we propping up or supporting a ministry which is contrary to the gospel when we continue to regularly give in this situation? Does it leave us no alternative than to leave to avoid giving support to falsehood, or can we attend but give less? Its a problem when the teaching is a mix.


33 thoughts on “Offerings to False Gods

  1. Agreed. That’s why I never tithe to CCCOF but just give $5 once a fortnight to cover costs (if you’re there enjoying their facilities you should still give them something I think).

  2. Not sure really. Inertia maybe, Fascination with a train wreck? They’ve got elements of what I’m looking for in a church. Primarily because I don’t know anywhere better to go. I went to an Anglican church before then, but they have their own problems (but great theology). I consider myself to be a non-church attender, I think we are living in the last days when most churches are falling away (the great deception before the end). So I’m a non chuch attender, watching the church of Laodicea before it turns into the full blown babylon/whore of Revelation. And enjoying some great music in the mean time. But to be fair they do have a Christian message now and then, elements of the gospel come out. Phil Pringle did a great sermon on love the other Sunday (damn shame he had to preceed it with the eroneous God will curse you if you don’t tithe bit before then. Saved by Grace and money…at least they got it half right).

  3. Hey Watcher. I don’t go to NorthGate, but apparantly it’s a fantastic church. The Spirit is really alive their and their have been miraculous healings, signs and wonders. I think it’s located near Forestville. They will be starting up their own healing rooms soon and that would be awesome to get involved in. Putting your faith in action- it is incredibly powerful stuff. You learn so much in working with the Spirit. You learn to hear God’s voice more clearly, you learn of your spiritual authority in Christ, etc. I know the woman who is doing the training there. Everyone loves her.

    You might want to check out the healing conference up at Dural so you can see and understand what the Healing Rooms are all about.

    Unless CCCOF gets over it’s pride and itself, it’s as good as dead. The church itself is coming together and actually moving in the Spirit in the streets. Forget Florida- God is knocking outside the building and some of his church has joined him and are now doing things with him.

    A lady threw down her crutches last week. She can now walk.
    A number of people have been delivered and healed from sicknesses too and healed of broken bodies, spiritual abuse , etc. The testimonies I’m hearing are great!

  4. Yes, I think God is walking outside the building too. I think while his church exists in both places, more and more of us are going to walk outside. I am probably beginning that transition, but will not leave completely until I have a sense it is the right season to move on. (If it’s not pre-empted for me.) I feel more like an observer than a participant in the preaching part of the service at the moment.

    Watcher, what you are saying is similar to what is happening in my own church. I know what you mean – one minute its grace, next minute its Malachi on tithing. It’s pretty hard not to conclude its Laodicea. But I think CCCOF is much further gone in that direction than my own little church right now. I think I’d be unable to attend one of their services. Most likely Hillsong too.

    Its ironic, because I remember years ago at CCCOF we all thought we were on the cutting edge of God’s move, and many felt the Catholic Church was the Babylonian whore. Now, I think we were filled with pride -or at least naivety. Not for a moment did we consider the type of movement we were involved in could possibly be deceived and drawn into a false gospel.

  5. How that resonates with us RP – I was looking at PP’s youtube clip on the CCCOF website today and this month is all about relationships. Last month was all about the conference and how you have to be there to meet with God. Next month will be all about the need to be at the women’s conference (it’s already started!). We are constantly event- driven.

    Now of course relationships are important but none of that will work without our relationship with Christ being the highlight of every service – not a five minute tack-on at the end. Feed the sheep! But can they? The doctrine expounded these days could be down-loaded from the Pastors Workbox at Saddleback for all we know.

    With all the overseas travel today, I don’t know how they prepare a message of any value. I have definately heard the last two sermons by PP before in the last couple of years. One of the reasons I enjoy John Macarthur is that you tell the effort and time put into research just for one sermon and he never preaches the same message twice in his church. It’s a sad reflection on a church when one is forced to go online just to get fed!

  6. I know what you mean about appreciating time and effort put into a sermon. A previous pastor put a lot into his messages. Even if you didn’t agree, you knew his basis for saying everything, and could look it up. It was stimulating and gave us a lot to think about. It was never imported from somewhere else. He certainly had my respect for his dedicated approach – and you can really tell the difference when it’s not there.

    Sometimes I think they bring in visiting speakers because it makes their lives easier (preparing less messages), and because the offering goes up. Plus sometimes its easier for an outsider to get a particular message across. Oh dear. Cynical again.

    Now however I don’t think we are really meant to be fed as passively as is the norm in many churches. Just sitting there and listening to even a really good message won’t necessarily be of any benefit to us. Challenging it or thinking about it can. Being and doing are important, and pursuing our own relationship with God. Its great to have the internet to get other teaching too.

  7. “Its ironic, because I remember years ago at CCCOF we all thought we were on the cutting edge of God’s move, and many felt the Catholic Church was the Babylonian whore. Now, I think we were filled with pride -or at least naivety. Not for a moment did we consider the type of movement we were involved in could possibly be deceived and drawn into a false gospel”.-RP

    Personally I suspect (assuming we are living in the end times) that the end time Babylonian whore will consist of both the Catholic church (already there) and the worst elements of WoF along with various other New Age religions.

    I was indoctrinated into end time theology in my teens by my Grandfather (a preacher with a penchant for both the end times and all things Jewish). I can remember in the 1980s when the New Age was all the rage in Christian circles as the coming world religion of the beast (antichrist) empire. I bought up every book on the New Age to understand it as a result, constantly watching for when the crystal loving hippie new agers would take over. Never did I imagine that the major end times whore religion would (most likely) be a nominal Christian church (albeit infiltrated with new age theology). Like they say reality is stranger than fiction.

    Now I don’t think PP is going to declare himself the Messiah or that he worships the devil behind closed doors. I am however concerned when I see the general WoF movement (of which CCCOF is a part) adopting a mindset and theology that tends to align with new age(i.e. hindu based) religious world view. By that I mean there seems to be a tendency in WoF to elevate man to “little god”status and while at the same time making God seen more feeble. In particular I worry about Hinn, Copeland and Hagin’s various well known and often quoted on the web “man is a god” statements (they are not official CCC leaders so it wouldn’t be a problem, except that within WoF including CCCOF they and their writings are all well regarded).

    The tendancy for WoF to see faith as a force you wield in its on right rather than concentrating on “faith (trust) in God, and the general create your own reality by positive thinking teaching I also see lining up with the new age. I forsee a time when the WoF people discover that they essentially believe the same thing as the new agers and are only too happy to join a new wonderful world religion in brother hood with the other new age accepting religions.

    I can’t help wandering if the word of faith or apostolic churches or whatever you want to call them, do indeed (as they thoroughly expect) one day become an end time conquering world religion (filling the stadiums etc) but with the irony that they mutate to be the full on whore of revelation which aids in the AC coming to power (before he turns on them and destroys them – to take over the people already conditioned to accept that a man can rise to the status of Godhood).

  8. teddy,
    John MacArthur clearly spends heaps of time preparing, but what use is that if he is clearly wrong in his analysis?

    I dare say he is correct on many issues, but we’re talking CCC here, which is Pentecostal, so he would be opposed to their teaching simply on the basis that they speak in tongues, and he has openly and categorically declared that revelatory gifts have ended, including speaking in tongues.

    On this he is obviously in error. Worse, he is leading others down the same track of error, and denying huge swathes of Christians the benefits of being able to speak in tongues, which, according to scripture, is to help build us up spiritually, and tells people they can no longer operate in the revelatory gifts, which are gifts of the eternal Spirit, not man.

    ‘The revelatory gifts had ceased to serve any purpose. And when the apostolic age ended with he death of the Apostle John, the signs that identified the apostles had already become moot.”

    http://www.gty.org/media/pdf/Gift_of_Tongues.pdf

    What utter rubbish. Jesus said that speaking in tongues was a sign following believers, not just apostles. What is the evidence of the end of any ‘apostolic age’? Jesus’ Apostles passed away, yes, but isn’t there yet a need for apostles in our age? Why did Paul say that Jesus would give gifts to men throughout all the ages of he Church which included the gift of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers? Where does it say anywhere that tongues would end with the death of he last of Jesus’ Apostles?

    Tongues will cease when the perfect is come. Knowledge will also cease. Has knowledge ceased? ‘This is eternal life, that the will know God’. So will prophecy cease. Is all prophecy fulfilled? Can you see any signs of perfection? Is sin done away with? Is the devil removed from our midst? Has evil been removed? Has the Church been caught up? Are we in the New Jerusalem in God’s Temple yet?

    ‘The evidence of history also indicates that tongues have ceased.’

    Cobblers! The evidence of history is that tongues were always present amongst various groups, but suppressed by the religious antichrist ‘church’ of the post Constantine era, who murdered and martyred groups who actually believed in God, or who ‘broke out’ on tongues.

    The evidence is that tongues revived at the turn of the 20th century, and the Pentecostal movement was birthed. It was not so much of a birth of a movement, but a revival of one of the basics of the early church. It was a sign that God was still at work amongst those who dare believe, and trust what he says in his Word.

    So why would you follow MacArthur on his anti-Pentecostal journey away from a fundamental truth, which had been beaten from pillar to post until recent years, and for which many groups and movements paid with their lives and blood?

  9. There are two opposite errors though. One is that the gifts of the Holy Spirit incljuding tongues have ceased. The other is its opposite, where every spiritual thing that happens in a ‘church’ is assumed to be from God, with no discernment.

  10. Maybe the Lord, Facelift? This is my experience albeit a painful one and he’s not the only ministry I enjoy. How would you like it if the Lord pulled the rug out from under your feet? Reformed theology is having a resurgence again as a result of all the flaky stuff going on.

    I do a lot of research and it’s not to pull down anyone but simply to apply the truth of God’s Word to every experience (and I’ve had them!)

    Admittedly the pendulum has swung far for me and thankfully the Lord is in control. I’m enjoying the journey only because I know He loves me and won’t let me go.

    If you’re right then your prayers would be appreciated however the question I would ask you would be “if we are both born-again” can we both be right? Yes we can because the points you bring up are not major doctrines. Have a read of “Charismatic Chaos” – it’s available on line. Not so long ago I would having been leading the charge against him but have a look at the fruit, not everyone is pentecostal. Does that mean they are not saved?

    For quite a few years as a Charismatic I would be so convicted by the love and fruit of non-charismatics who are my friends. I’m ashamed of how I judged them because they didn’t have “it”

    Facelift, I know a lot more than I let on here – again this is my journey (and my husband) not those of our friends at various CCC’s.

  11. By the way I do believe in the gift of tongues as they operated correctly in church 1Corinthians14:27 – something hardly practiced any more.

  12. Re John Macarthur – I’ve heard him teach solid doctrine on a pre-trib rapture, God’s plan for Israel, none of that kingdom now/ replacement theology. We NEVER get anything like that, not in 22 years. You want some sound teaching, check John Piper, Mark Driscoll, C.J. Mahaney, charismatic and non-charismatic. All very good friends of John Macarthur working TOGETHER for the Gospel.

  13. I find Mark Driscoll’s attitudes towards the roles of men and women leave a bit to be desired. But I know many others would disagree with me there. Gender stereotyping of either sex bugs me. I guess I’ve worked with too many men who don’t fit the stereotypes – good men – and women too. Many of us women who don’t fit the stereotype promoted in churches find some of the women’s event stuff can miss us completely. Having said that, as a mother, I just love hearing other mum’s talk about the challenges they face bringing up their kids. That stuff is real, not stereotypical.

  14. I am grateful to the reformed theologians for combatting prosperity doctrine amongst other things.

  15. I have difficulty with the rational of those who relegate the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit to less important doctrines, and the same with speaking in tongues. Why are the manifestations of the Spirit any less important than the fruit?

    It seems to me that if you read scripture from the perspective of the importance of the promise of the Spirit, where Jesus tells his disciples to go nowhere until they are endued with power from on high, and you consider the power and potential of the manifestations of the Spirit and put them into context with the obvious needs of a fallen world, then the entire Church should repent for its almost 2,000 year old lack of action in the Spirit, faith, respect and understanding of this teaching, and especially for relegating such crucial doctrine to the ‘useless’ or ‘used’ folder.

    Surely the Spirit is grieved by this lack of confidence in his power to bring change through the gifts.

    This is far more important than is being realised.

  16. And I find it very interesting that John Macarthur doesn’t believe in tithing.

    Mark Driscoll does have reformed theology in regards to women, and I’m OK with that considering some would call me an “alpha” female? If such a thing exists!

    There are some interesting studies of the effect secular feminism has had on the church. That same issue has affected how women are viewed if they choose to stay home and be a full-time mum. Just look at the reaction women have towards the latest Labour budget.

  17. I’m not a ‘secular feminist’, but I am grateful for the work they did combatting stereotypes about women, their abilities and their roles.

    Personally, I think that women have been ruled by their husbands as a result of the Fall, and it’s one of the things we are redeemed from through Christ. But some people don’t want this part of redemption!

    I completely disagree with anything that introduces hatred towards or domination of men!

    Neither men nor women are meant to be dominated by eachother. Unity is the key, and I believe this is what Adam and Eve were created to live in. An easy to read (relatively) book on the subject is ’10 Lies the Church Teaches About Women’, by J Lee Grady, editor of Charisma magazine. The women’s group I was a part of was not allowed to study it.

  18. “Personally, I think that women have been ruled by their husbands as a result of the Fall, and it’s one of the things we are redeemed from through Christ. But some people don’t want this part of redemption!”- ravingpente

    In other words ravingpente you don’t want to obey the biblical command to submit to your husband and you have come up with a rational for why you don’t have to.

    I don’t think your position lines up with scripture though, I think it just reflects your own wishful thinking.

    In particular I say your take on the matter does not line up with the following New Testament verses which were written after Jesus died on the cross and redeemed us

    Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.

    Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

    Eph 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

    1Cr 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    1Cr 11:8-10 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

    1Pe 3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,

    1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

    Ravingpente why not just be honest and say “I refuse to obey scripture when it comes to obeying my husband”…instead of coming up with false indignation?

  19. Anonymous said:
    Now I don’t think PP is going to declare himself the Messiah or that he worships the devil behind closed doors. I am however concerned when I see the general WoF movement (of which CCCOF is a part) adopting a mindset and theology that tends to align with new age(i.e. hindu based) religious world view.

    Allot of people don’t realise that when Christ said “many will come in my name saying ‘I’m the Christ’ “, that he meant that many deceivers will come in Jesus’ name and acknowledge Jesus as the Christ. This is what makes a wolf in sheep’s clothing so dangerous. We don’t know if they are truly God’s sheep by confession.

  20. You can’t have it all ways, Anonymous. CCCOF is a faith movement, but don’t confuse that with what you obviously think is WoF. We’re all supposed to be living by faith. To stick my neck out dangerously, I’m OK with much of what WoF teaches (not all) by the way, and many critics don’t have a clue about what is actually taught, so they make up what they think is being taught and create their own anomalies. Much of what is criticised is the interpretative error of the error-seekers.

    Having said that, I have to say that I’ve heard CCC ministers publicly condemn basic WoF theology in some areas, including joining the bandwagon in wrongly criticising E W Kenyon as teaching gnosticism, and who is (erroneously I think) considered the ‘father’ of WoF, as well being said to have influenced K E Hagin, even though his teaching on the baptism with the Spirit falls short of WoF teaching by a mile.

    None of this is as simple as critics make out.

  21. cpig, what does the ‘c’ stand for? Chauvinist?

    ‘As Christ loves the Church and gave himself for her’ That is the criteria for submission. It is qualified. First we all have to be submitted to God and his will, and then submitted to one another in the fear of the Lord. You know, men submitted to women included.

  22. Very liberal interpretation of the scriptures Facelift, which takes into account current social thinking and attitudes. I’m impressed!!

  23. An understanding of submission is important so that submission in any context is not abused. Submission whether in church or in a marriage is not supposed to be interpreted as a situation where the powerful dominate the weak.

    Jesus did not dominate us. Neither should we dominate others.

    It is highly desirable that we obey Christ, but it is still voluntary. We all have trouble with it – or I would be suspicious of anyone who denies that they do at times.

    My comment re the rule of men over their wives – very briefly, it began in Genesis 3, as part of the fall.

    First, particular enmity was created between women and satan in Gen 3:15:

    ” 15And I will put (O)enmity
    Between you and the woman,
    And between your seed and her seed;
    (P)He shall bruise you on the head,
    And you shall bruise him on the heel.” :

    Then women were given pain in childbirth and placed under the dominating rule of their husbands:

    ” 16To the woman He said,
    “I will greatly multiply
    Your pain in childbirth,
    In pain you will (Q)bring forth children;
    Yet your desire will be for your husband,
    And (R)he will rule over you”

    This domination was not God’s original intention for the relationship between a husband and wife. While Eve was a helper, companion and complement to Adam, she was not created as his slave, to have no input or just to do as she was told.

    Now that Christ has come, we who are born again have the opportunity to be renewed as God originally intended us to be. While we live with our physical limitations, in our characters we are to grow more and more into the likeness of Christ. Christ was more perfect than Adam (since He had no sin). Even Adam did not originally ‘rule’ over his wife. So Christian husbands can become likewise as redeemed by Jesus.

    Gen 2:24 says:

    ” 24Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall become united and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.(E)”

    That is why unity is so important. It is God’s original intention for a man and a woman. It is not merely about sexual unity. Domination by either partner is sinful, and in contradiction to the verse that Facelift quoted.

    There is no justification for a woman to do as she pleases with no reference to her husband. That does not result in unity either.

    Interestingly, the relationship between Christ and His Bride, the church, parallels marriage. We are to abide in Him. That is – unity with Him.

    So if our marriage is a reflection of that, we are to be in unity with one another there also, and with Christ. “A cord of 3 strands is not easily broken.”

    Hence of course I will submit to my husband but that will not be a result of him dominating me. We seek unity. We will pray on matters until we find unity.

    My personal experience is that initially in my marriage, at times when we disagreed on major things, I did simply submit. When things then went wrong, I felt that I had not exercised my responsibility as his partner/helper. We had not really achieved unity.

    Now we have agreed to proceed with nothing unless we have reached that point of unity. We can be united and wrong – but then at least we are there together, without blaming one another. We have found we are more blessed when we do act in unity, and in the process of achieving that we have both learnt much from the other. There is a mutual submission when things go well, because to listen and learn from the other requires humility which is a part of submission.

    So this is something I have studied repeatedly over the years. I don’t expect others to agree with me, however, I would say that I have not reached this position overnight, and not without carefully studying scripture.

    As I pointed out above, J Lee Grady has written an excellent book on the subject, ’10 Lies the Church Teaches About Women’ (some churches are very extreme), and I won’t rewrite the book here! But I’d recommend anyone who is serious about the subject pick it up, because it explores the scriptures fairly thoroughly while remaining readable.

    God bless!

    \

  24. The man is head of his wife, the leader of his wife. This is for his wifes benefit and done out of love, very similar to the relation between a mother and her young child. It has absolutley nothing to do with domination. The verses do not imply domination nor have I even hinted as such.

  25. Where does it say in scripture that the relationship between a husband and wife is similar to the relation between a mother and young child?

    I would have thought they were quite different relationships. Particularly since while in Eph 5:22 Paul said “Wives be subject to your own husbands” (a voluntary submission in the context of mutual submission where the husband has ‘given himself up’ for his wife as per Eph 5:25) – he later in Eph 6:1 said ‘Children obey your parents’ – a different concept.

    But that could just be my feminine lack of ability to comprehend. (Rather like a young child) 🙂

  26. I’m moving the discussion re men/women/submission to its own thread.

    So feel free to comment on ‘Offerings to False Gods’ here, but please use the new thread for the other topic.

    Thanks.

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