I’ve moved this discussion to its own thread, since it may be of interest to people not interested in the original thread. Here’s the rerun – all about the roles of men and women in marriage (so far)…
I’m not a ’secular feminist’, but I am grateful for the work they did combatting stereotypes about women, their abilities and their roles.
Personally, I think that women have been ruled by their husbands as a result of the Fall, and it’s one of the things we are redeemed from through Christ. But some people don’t want this part of redemption!
I completely disagree with anything that introduces hatred towards or domination of men! Neither men nor women are meant to be dominated by eachother. Unity is the key, and I believe this is what Adam and Eve were created to live in. An easy to read (relatively) book on the subject is ‘10 Lies the Church Teaches About Women’, by J Lee Grady, editor of Charisma magazine.
“Personally, I think that women have been ruled by their husbands as a result of the Fall, and it’s one of the things we are redeemed from through Christ. But some people don’t want this part of redemption!”- ravingpente
In other words ravingpente you don’t want to obey the biblical command to submit to your husband and you have come up with a rational for why you don’t have to. I don’t think your position lines up with scripture though, I think it just reflects your own wishful thinking. In particular I say your take on the matter does not line up with the following New Testament verses which were written after Jesus died on the cross and redeemed us
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Eph 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
1Cr 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
1Cr 11:8-10 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
1Pe 3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
Ravingpente why not just be honest and say “I refuse to obey scripture when it comes to obeying my husband”…instead of coming up with false indignation?
cpig, what does the ‘c’ stand for? Chauvinist?
‘As Christ loves the Church and gave himself for her’ That is the criteria for submission. It is qualified. First we all have to be submitted to God and his will, and then submitted to one another in the fear of the Lord. You know, men submitted to women included.
# wazza2 :
Very liberal interpretation of the scriptures Facelift, which takes into account current social thinking and attitudes. I’m impressed!!
An understanding of submission is important so that submission in any context is not abused. Submission whether in church or in a marriage is not supposed to be interpreted as a situation where the powerful dominate the weak.
Jesus did not dominate us. Neither should we dominate others.
It is highly desirable that we obey Christ, but it is still voluntary. We all have trouble with it – or I would be suspicious of anyone who denies that they do at times.
My comment re the rule of men over their wives – very briefly, it began in Genesis 3, as part of the fall.
First, particular enmity was created between women and satan in Gen 3:15:
” 15And I will put (O)enmity Between you and the woman,And between your seed and her seed; (P)He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
Then women were given pain in childbirth and placed under the dominating rule of their husbands:
” 16To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will (Q)bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And (R)he will rule over you”
This domination was not God’s original intention for the relationship between a husband and wife. While Eve was a helper, companion and complement to Adam, she was not created as his slave, to have no input or just to do as she was told.
Now that Christ has come, we who are born again have the opportunity to be renewed as God originally intended us to be. While we live with our physical limitations, in our characters we are to grow more and more into the likeness of Christ. Christ was more perfect than Adam (since He had no sin). Even Adam did not originally ‘rule’ over his wife. So Christian husbands can become likewise as redeemed by Jesus.
Gen 2:24 says: ” 24Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall become united and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.(E)”
That is why unity is so important. It is God’s original intention for a man and a woman. It is not merely about sexual unity. Domination by either partner is sinful, and in contradiction to the verse that Facelift quoted.
There is no justification for a woman to do as she pleases with no reference to her husband. That does not result in unity either.
Interestingly, the relationship between Christ and His Bride, the church, parallels marriage. We are to abide in Him. That is – unity with Him.
So if our marriage is a reflection of that, we are to be in unity with one another there also, and with Christ. “A cord of 3 strands is not easily broken.”
Hence of course I will submit to my husband but that will not be a result of him dominating me. We seek unity. We will pray on matters until we find unity.
My personal experience is that initially in my marriage, at times when we disagreed on major things, I did simply submit. When things then went wrong, I felt that I had not exercised my responsibility as his partner/helper. We had not really achieved unity.
Now we have agreed to proceed with nothing unless we have reached that point of unity. We can be united and wrong – but then at least we are there together, without blaming one another. We have found we are more blessed when we do act in unity, and in the process of achieving that we have both learnt much from the other. There is a mutual submission when things go well, because to listen and learn from the other requires humility which is a part of submission.
So this is something I have studied repeatedly over the years. I don’t expect others to agree with me, however, I would say that I have not reached this position overnight, and not without carefully studying scripture.
As I pointed out above, J Lee Grady has written an excellent book on the subject, ‘10 Lies the Church Teaches About Women’ (some churches are very extreme), and I won’t rewrite the book here! But I’d recommend anyone who is serious about the subject pick it up, because it explores the scriptures fairly thoroughly while remaining readable.
The man is head of his wife, the leader of his wife. This is for his wifes benefit and done out of love, very similar to the relation between a mother and her young child. It has absolutley nothing to do with domination. The verses do not imply domination nor have I even hinted as such.
Where does it say in scripture that the relationship between a husband and wife is similar to the relation between a mother and young child?
I would have thought they were quite different relationships. Particularly since while in Eph 5:22 Paul said “Wives be subject to your own husbands” (a voluntary submission in the context of mutual submission where the husband has ‘given himself up’ for his wife as per Eph 5:25) – he later in Eph 6:1 said ‘Children obey your parents’ – a different concept.
But that could just be my feminine lack of ability to comprehend. (Rather like a young child) 🙂