Pervers-atisements for CCC’s Awakening 2008

Yep. It’s been and gone. Unfortunately I stumbled across some of their advertisements.
Listened to them. I feel sorry for Josh Kelsey. A great man of God has sold his brains to Phil.

This is advertising in the Christian church that should be illegal. Noone should use guilt and makeup doctrine or twist doctrine to bring people to a ‘churchy’ event. I’m sorry, but that is not on.

Josh Kelsey’s Josh-wash:

I’ll allow someone else to rant on about the inaccuracies of what Josh has said. This young man, who has a heart for God want straight through SOM. Look at the results!

The Joel Houston Joust:

“Who wants to get stuck into the same old, same old box?” Heh-heh! I wonder if Joel ever asked that question, himself? “So often we are about our heart and our glory.” I’m glad he’s taken note of such a truth, but what is he going to do about it? Address it through action and lose lose his position? Now that’s stepping out of the box and out of the norm. God does indeed share his glory with mankind. Anyways. Pick at this too peoples. I want to finish writing this out.

And last but not least, the great Phil himself who his getting to old for his job.

He was part of the ‘Jesus Revolution’? Was it EVER called the Jesus Revolution. I’ve only ever heard it called the ‘Jesus Movement’. The reason why I’m capitalising on this is because, as far as I am concerned, he is twisting a well known, historically, named movement, to suit his agenda to manipulate people into coming to this (now passed) conference- the REVOLUTION. In spite of this- he said him and his wife were apart of it. Hmm… They were the outcome of it. From my understanding, in talking to many people, including my parents and elders that were apart of it- it was noted as an official movement and started in 1965, ending , many have said, between 1975-1980, with the movement in Australia, definitely before the year 1980.

edited: This has been discussed, explored and corrected. (July 22, 2008 at 3:36 pm)

However, the movement still left an impact on Christendom- some would say for the better, others would say for the worst. The Pringles were NEVER apart of it but were an outcome of it.

Not only that, does anyone find what Phil says completely contradictory? It starts with him saying when he was young what he and his wife did- looking after drug addicts and dealing with prison people. Now he wants the young generation to do what they did, being apart of their movement, being in their stadiums and figuring out where God wants them; being in love with God by going to their events?

Brooke Frasiers promo for Awakening… Not worth showing. She’s relatively harmless. She just wants to be wherever God moves. But that’s why she is choosing to come again to the Awakening conference. Not because she was asked? Or possibly, just possibly, wanting to promote her latest CD?

I’m posting this because I want to highlight the cost in which advertising now plays in church. Forget truth, throw in contradiction and perversion and you’ve got an advertisement for a ‘God-Driven’ Event by young 20 year olds who are in love with God.

Advertising can be pure as a form of communicating an event. But these are clearly not. To me this is an issue that needs to be addressed when promoting church ‘stuff’. This, to me, is not a speck but a plank that need to addressed.

Remember the speck. Remember the plank.

Specks&Planks


97 thoughts on “Pervers-atisements for CCC’s Awakening 2008

  1. It’s all a bit fuzzy to me. Pretty much the same message as for most conferences, but aimed at youth.

    The essential message seemed to be to come to Awakening and take part in the young generation that will usher revival into the church. I found the adverts boring, but hey, I’m not youth – they aren’t aimed at me.

    I guess the thing that made me a bit sad was to see the young Houston and Kelsey following in their fathers’ corporate footsteps to that degree – but they are perfectly happy and enthusiastic doing that, so again, one shouldn’t feel sorry for them.

    When I see pastors’ family members in high profile roles though, I do wonder if there may have been some other talented or gifted people who may have been better suited to those roles except that they were not as close to the inner circle.

  2. ‘Remember the speck. Remember the plank.’

    True, but who’s got the plank, we wonder, in this piece?

    Jesus movement, revolution, who really cares, or decides. what it is called? It influenced/s beyond itself. So thank God!

    Picky picky, no love, no friendly.

    Praise God these young people, and the older, but not that old (Wigglesworth started in serious ministry when he was 57) (Wesley was still riding around on horseback in his 80’s), PP are saved, and have dedicated their lives, young or old, to preaching for salvation, for souls, for a revolution and movement of soul winners for Jesus.

    I smell the smell of sour grapes. Maybe, in future, you should let them mature turn into new wine!

  3. I must admit, I really like Josh! He is very sincere, which means of course he can be sincerely wrong. Yes, there is an influence from his dad, who is also very sincere. This is one of the nicest families at CCCOF.

    There have been times where Mark has shown his replacement theology bent. I think we just might see the Lord have His way with this young man, he’s not in ministry because of nepotism but a sincere desire to serve the Lord.

    I was pleasantly surprised to see Francis Chan as a guest speaker. However he may not be invited back – his message was quite reformed and solid.

    Enough of this support for CCCOF – I need to put my grumpy hat back on!!!

  4. Especially since I just found out they have invited Steve Munsey to their Conference in Hawaii – hope he doesn’t wear a hula skirt!

  5. Teddy, its good to hear that Josh is not there due to nepotism.

    I remember Mark Kelsey from many years ago, and only remember good things about him and his families dedication. I really do hope that it all works out well at CCCOF now that the Kelsey’s are back. I understand Mark Kelsey is now in charge? Or is Phil Pringle still in that role after all?

    It doesn’t surprise me in a way to see both Steve Munsey and a reformed speaker speaking at different times. Although I am particularly sorry to hear that Munsey is spaking at their Hawaii conference. I guess if they don’t use discernment then both good and bad can still get in.

  6. FaceLift Says:
    “True, but who’s got the plank, we wonder, in this piece?”

    The thought crossed my mind FaceLift that I it may have been me.

    I suppose I should try and expand on above a bit more. Advertising does have a place, I believe for church activities and to promote awareness of fun things coming up. But by no means are we to sink to the world’s level to lie, manipulate blatantly, change history or use non-scriptural basis to encourage people to come. Not only that, to use guilt and shame to drive people to come such events is wrong.

    I’ve seen some of Phil’s messages online where he preaches on the church being the gate- or even a ‘stargate’. He has talked about CCC churches (specifically in the rise wand build) being the only place where people can step into a heavenly experience here on earth. Stepping through the stargate and being taken to heaven to experience God and his presence.

    Where is that in scripture? Next thing you know you have Josh Kelsey, who I actually really admire now starting to tread down the same road. I’m angry for his sake that he is not questioning the teaching’s he is taking on board, but is promoted to shut off his God-given brain. What he accepts as truth he’ll be teaching other’s what is truth.

    Wordly advertising is all about being contemporary and convenient. Being in, not out. Join this or you’ll suck. Get this or you’ll never be satisfied. Unfortunately, all had this tone in them- to those who go to CCC or to those that go to a local church who feel they need to go (despite of finances or relationships/loyalties). It’s elitism. It’s pride. It’s subtle and subversive and unhealthy patriotism. They are asking people to pledge allegiance to a true church movement (themselves), the one on fire, the one that is moving. It’s actually divisive and causes local ministries to suffer as a result.

    The reason why I am being so picky (specifically Phil), is that he knows what words to say and what sounds good to advertise to people. His theme word is ‘revolution’. He was never part of the ‘Jesus Revolution’ and in to imply that he was apart of it is wrong. However he was an outcome of it. It’s a fine line of deception.

    He broadcast this online and to his fellow church members. At first I considered this to be a speck that maybe not worth reading into. But combined with false doctrines, confusing messages and a bad account of his past history, that should not be on.

    Every word of theirs would have been considered before going to air. It’s not like ‘oops, how did that get up there? Why did I say that?’, after the thing is still being aired to this day. It’s wrong, deceitful and should not be allowed. It’s called lying.

    True. I can be bitter and I can be cynical, yet passionate. I’m expressing that I can be those things openly. Call it a speck, call it a plank. I see it as a speck.

    But to lie and openly distort the past and scripture for the sake of advertising and being ‘Christians to a world that needs to be saved’, but then to not pull inaccuracies of off is a sign that they endorse unblibical truths and practices.

    I’ll just keep writing if I don’t stop.
    See ya.

  7. I just listened to that second Josh Kelsey video.

    I see what you mean about doctrine.

    More of ‘the church is the gate of heaven’ theology, complete with prosperity thrown in. More of the same. This stuff is now sounding like pretty major CCC doctrine.

  8. You can never pin CCC down on their theology – they never come outright and say it’s dominion/kingdom now/replacement stuff. There’s a tendency to run with the latest trend/gimmick. From personal experience if you question certain teachings they can be quite patronising.

    They tend to scoff at seminary training and call it “cemetary” training. A good way to cover up their own lack of sound training. By their standard I’m qualified to run a church (because I graduted with high marks , 100% for leadership etc) and I know I’m not qualified. I’ve listened to too many good preachers elsewhere lately – a good dose of Spurgeon wouldn’t go astray.

    Now I know that we are called to be Berean but don’t put that into practice or you will be shunned – seriously!!

    Here’s a good quote from a repentant Jim Bakker – remember him? He calls sermons today “longhorn sermons” – a point here and a point there with a lot of bull in between.

  9. Ha! That’s a good quote from Bakker. Sometimes a speaker actually has good content, but the amount of funny stories in between can be sheer frustration. I don’t mind the odd anecdote, when its relevant or as relief, but we had a speaker recently who said he was condensing 8 weeks of content into one message, and thought he’d have trouble fitting it all in. Well, we got about 5 minutes total of excellent content, and 30 minutes of stand up comedy. I think he could have fit the 8 weeks into half an hour if he’d cut the comedy. I’d rather get meat than lollies if I’m going to allocate precious time to listening to a preacher. (Gripe, gripe!)

    ‘Cemetery training’ – how dismissive! No wonder they can’t discern anything anymore. This is such a big weakness, combined with pride I’m afraid. Unless the ‘pride’ is just sheer defensive behaviour. Doesn’t bode well for their future direction.

    I wonder what would happen if discernment was exercised? Maybe their numbers would actually increase – people would stop leaving when it became empty and repetitive?

  10. S&P – are you joking? I can’t tell in print. 🙂

    I believe Josh would be Mark Kelsey’s son – he even looks like him! Teddy, can you confirm it?

  11. I knew a young man who joked a bit from the pulpit and he was seriously convicted by the Holy Spirit (almost immediately). His heart was broken before the Lord.

    The problem is they are trying to be relevant and not trusting the sufficiency of scripture (my favourite saying) . We should be concerned for the next generation – there could be a distinct lack of reverance for the presence of God and who will be the blame for that?

    We forget how holy He is , and just because we are His by adoption, does not mean we can constantly play the fool. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction”.

    I love a good joke as much as anyone but when pastors think they have “warm up the audience” before preaching perhaps they’re in the wrong business. It’s also annoying when they think a movie theme/story will reach kids more than the supernatural transforming power of the spoken “Word”. Once in a while maybe if it’s truly relevent but give me a break!!!!!! Phil Baker over at Riverview used the movie “Chocolat”!!!

    So those who still haven’t seen it can include some “magic” in their walk. OK so I saw the movie too, but I wouldn’t preach on it!

  12. “The problem is they are trying to be relevant and not trusting the sufficiency of scripture (my favourite saying) .”

    Yes, you are probably right.

    “fools despise wisdom and instruction”.

    Hmm – that brings to mind the ‘cemetary training’ comment.

    Sheep will find another field if the one they are in has nothing to eat!

  13. “What is preaching? Logic on fire! Eloquent reason! Are these contradictions? Of course they are not. Reason concerning this Truth ought to be mightily eloquent, as you see it in the case of the Apostle Paul and others. It is theology on fire. And a theology which does not take fire, I maintain, is a defective theology; or at least the man’s understanding of it is defective. Preaching is theology coming through a man who is on fire. A true understanding and experience of the Truth must lead to this. I say again that a man who can speak about these things dispassionately has no right whatsoever to be in a pulpit; and should never be allowed to enter one. What is the chief end of preaching? I like to think it is this. It is to give men and women a sense of God and His presence.
    As I have said already, during this last year I have been ill, and so have had the opportunity, and the privilege, of listening to others, instead of preaching myself. As I have listened in physical weakness this is the thing I have looked for and longed for and desired. I can forgive a man for a bad sermon, I can forgive the preacher almost anything if he gives me a sense of God, if he gives me something for my soul, if he gives me the sense that, though he is inadequate himself, he is handling something which is very great and very glorious, if he gives me some dim glimpse of the majesty and the glory of God, the love of Christ my Saviour, and the magnificence of the Gospel.

    If he does that I am his debtor, and I am profoundly grateful to him. Preaching is the most amazing, and the most thrilling activity that one can ever be engaged in, because of all that it holds out for all of us in the present, and because of the glorious endless possibilities ”

    Martin Lloyd Jones

  14. So they become Sheeple –

    “Sheeple is a term of disparagement, a portmanteau created by combining the words “sheep” and “people.” It is often used to denote persons who acquiesce to authority, and thus undermine their own human individuality. The implication of sheeple is that as a collective, people believe whatever they are told, especially if told so by authority figures, without processing it to be sure that it is an accurate representation of the real world around them. ” – Wikipedia

  15. Oh how sad. To think there is even a word for it. Sheeple is a pretty good description though. You know I’ve never once heard any teaching on the Bereians at any church I’ve attended.

  16. Whoever wrote that post has shocking grammar. Please use spell check if you’re going to post something!!!

  17. Aw, come on Liz, Blogging isn’t supposed to be perfect, and language is constantly changing, but, since you mention it, some of the comments on this post are pretty rank, too. Rank to the plank, in fact. Please use smell check before commenting!

  18. So for the sake of discussion Facelift, which particular comments are rank, that you had in mind?

  19. The general air is polluted by a sort of gossipy unpleasantness. The post begins it and the comments add to it. It’s not very nice.

    For instance, who cares whether a person is the son or daughter of someone who runs the church? They should have at least equal consideration to every other member, not less.

    In fact, PK’s tend to have a stronger handle on how the local church is run, of course, living he household of those who run it, and not only living, but being brought up in the ups and downs, and ins and outs, of it all. plus they generally have some of the traits of their parents, the people who got these movements going in the first place.

    Of course they’ll be considered for leadership positions. Besides, we Christians are all kids of the same Father, are we not? There are sons and daughters of the ‘house’ and sons and daughters of the Pastor. Timothy was like a son to Paul. I think we have to get over that particular hurdle.

    What is it that Josh is getting wrong? He is a little on the wordy side, but passionate about young people knowing God, and giving themselves over to serve. The ‘gate of heaven’ thing on the church isn’t really that bad of teaching. It builds something into the house.

    Jacob’s encounter with God certainly had a prophetic edge to it, and he definitely called that place the House of God – Bethel – where angels ascended and descended, where God spoke to him, and transformed his life; a place so awful, holy and terrifying it had to be God’s Presence Jacob encountered; and so it should be when we gather, wherever that may be, to worship and praise and be in the Presence of God corporately, as if we were like the saints who stood before the scary Mount at the presentation of the tablets of stone, under the thick, dark clouds, the thunders and lightnings of God… yet even more so, since we are the general assembly of the first-born, standing before Him in Mount Zion. The local church being a microcosm of the Church.

    There are so many allusions to this truth of his great Presence amongst us in general gatherings, when we truly worship and honour His name, that we should enjoy these various interpretations of encountering God’s Presence, rather than looking for some legalistic accuracy of pin-point regimentation. The Spirit, not the letter, for we want life not death.

    Yes, we should all be continually in His Presence, and church is more than Sunday meetings, but there should be some kind of awe to corporate gathering which is appreciated by all present, and it does seem that special things can and do take place in this atmosphere.

    Gate of Heaven seems to fit the bill appropriately in this context.

    But all this blah-blah niggling back-biting is conducive to the opposite.

  20. FL says:
    “What is it that Josh is getting wrong? He is a little on the wordy side, but passionate about young people knowing God, and giving themselves over to serve. The ‘gate of heaven’ thing on the church isn’t really that bad of teaching. It builds something into the house…

    Gate of Heaven seems to fit the bill appropriately in this context.”

    No FaceLift. This ‘gate of heaven’ doctrine is full of crock, mate.
    Christ is the gate, we are not. The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven was indeed among the Jewish people. If they knew the Law, knew the Prophets word and listened to Jesus, they would know that the gate of Heaven, Jesus Christ, was their only access to the Kingdom of Heaven/Kingdom of God.

    They have to see that Jesus is the only access to see their God manifest himself to them as their King and Saviour.

    Now back to the church, we’ve gone through the gate. We as members of the church who ‘house’ the Holy Spirit are the Household or ‘House of God’ universally. The church is not a Mecha unlike this BS teaching says it is. CCC use this made-up BS doctrine to get it’s members to give to their Rise&Build program and to fleece the flock to pledge loyalty to their movement. This teaching reinforces lies, manipulation and greed. It’s a another wannabe RCC heresy so it can further their ‘church planting’ or expanding their empire.

    FL says:
    “And it does seem that special things can and do take place in this atmosphere.”

    True. Like everyone feeling good? It’s true it can be an amazing experience. But so can worship and the presence of God anywhere else around the world. To narrow down that one needs to give money to build a gateway to heaven sounds like something like an occult program. ‘Let’s build a tower to reach God’ syndrome. Can more money bring the presence of God. Can a bigger building bring the presence of God? Can sheer mass bring the presence of God? Or does God bring the presence of God?

    FL says:
    “The general air is polluted by a sort of gossipy unpleasantness. The post begins it and the comments add to it. It’s not very nice.”

    In all honesty, I did not know that Josh Kelsey was the son of Mark Kelsey. I still don’t see a resemblance. I’ve known Josh Kelsey for eight years- vaguely. His credentials and the way he just fitted the mould made me think he was going to go well in a CCC environment. Too true. I thought maybe somehow he could have been related to Mark, but thought it was just a coincidental last name. Can you highlight the ‘gossipy’ side so I know what you mean by that?

    Now I’ve got to clarify something. I rang up some people. They honestly assumed he was saved in the 1980’s. Many say around 1975. Another said 1978. A few say 1980. So Phil could have been apart of the movement. I take it back. However, I still don’t like the fact that he used the Jesus Movement to further his own kingdom by linking his movement to a movement that had many great mothers and fathers in the faith who would no way, support some of the churches that have capitilised on what they founded in the early 60’s and 70’s… Frank Houston is still more amazing then what his son will ever accomplish (apart from what He did later). I managed to get the book ‘Arise’, the book on how CCC was started. I’ll read that to find out.

    “In fact, PK’s tend to have a stronger handle on how the local church is run, of course, living he household of those who run it, and not only living, but being brought up in the ups and downs, and ins and outs, of it all. plus they generally have some of the traits of their parents, the people who got these movements going in the first place.”

    That is true in a sense, but rather a general statement. They can be much worse, or much smarter and better then their parents prior. They can be really insensitive or really understanding. It’s all about how their parents raised them, how they were involved in other people’s lives, decisions they made, friends they hang with, how they were involved with church, how they know God, etc.

    From my experience, I’ve seen them to be quite rude and stuck up. Those mainly from pentecostal churches anyways. Baptists, Anglican and Lutheran PK’s seem to be fine. However, I think Josh Kelsey is an exception.

    And forgive my bad english. (I saw the hint that I was the one with the shonky english). I always write really late at night. I suffer from lack of sleep and hope to get some earlier nights soon.

    Good night.

  21. The ‘gate of heaven’ doctrine is used to reinforce the message that we need to gather corporately in the Sunday meeting to access the fullness of God’s presence. I have personally heard it preached that meetings of just 2 or 3 don’t cut the mustard in this respect.

    It is preached sincerely, but is a distortion of scripture and a doctrine of coercion, ultimately leading people to believe that the Sunday meeting is where it’s all at. You go there to get what you need to ‘get you through the week’. It is designed to encourage dependency upon that particular body expression. More people will attend meetings regularly when they believe that is their ultimate contact point with our Father.

    It is a doctrine of denial, because it denies the fullness of the presence of God in other settings – and even the fullness of Christ through all things – all creation. When we are taught that we can only experience God’s full presence in one setting, we will not even really have our eyes open to see Him in his full works in creation, in our lives outside the ‘church’ setting, in business, in marriage and family, in our neighbourhood activities, in his natural wonders. We are actually cut off from a wider recognition and experience of God’s presence if we swallow this doctrine. It can stunt our growth if we believe the Sunday meeting is the only place to experience His fullness, and stop us from hearing God’s voice elsewhere.

  22. Regarding pastors’ kids, I don’t think anyone here was having a go at Josh Kelsey. Raising the question of nepotism is worthwhile – it doesn’t mean it is what happens. In fact, Teddy assured us that Josh was a good person for his role, and specksandplanks has continually said that Josh is a great guy.

    A PK may well be the best person for the job. When you see it happening a lot though, you’d have to say either others more well equipped are missed because they are not PK’s who automatically have the right connections to be recognised, or else, PK’s are the best for the job because of their cultural fit. The cultural fit is what I call what Facelift alluded to.

    Josh of course reflects the doctrine he has absorbed through growing up in the CCC family. Those of us who fundamentally disagree with some of those doctrines find it hard to watch any young person with a genuine heart for Christ deceived by them. It’s harder for PK’s because they have grown up surrounded by it all. For the same reason, if you agree with those doctrines, you are going to think that PK’s frequently understand it best.

    I’d love to see a ‘recovering PK’. They’d be fascinating to listen to.

  23. s&p – I was used to seeing Mark Kelsey 20 years ago, when he looked younger, so maybe that’s why I can see the resemblance to Josh more. I love seeing those family resemblances!

  24. S&P,
    ‘The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven was indeed among the Jewish people. If they knew the Law, knew the Prophets word and listened to Jesus, they would know that the gate of Heaven, Jesus Christ, was their only access to the Kingdom of Heaven/Kingdom of God.

    They have to see that Jesus is the only access to see their God manifest himself to them as their King and Saviour.’

    Are you saying that Jacob met with Jesus Christ at Bethel? How so? Jesus Christ appeared to the Jews several centuries later.

    The Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of Heaven. It has always been. The Gate is where God chooses it to be. Jesus is the door, and the gate, but he did not appear to Jacob as the Jesus of the New Testament, since he was not named ‘Jesus’ yet, or born of the virgin, so could only have been the Gate Jacob named in a prophetic way, which would declare that there was an entrance point to the Church, which is the Body of Christ, Christ being the Head. We enter through the veil, that is Christ’s flesh, and through his blood.

    Jacob, in fact, saw a ladder going up into heaven, and angels ascending and descending. God spoke with him there. He said, “Surely Jehovah is in this place, and I knew it not!” and was afraid, “How dreadful is this place! This is none other than the House of God, and this is the Gate of Heaven!”

    Was it literally the House of God, or the Gate of Heaven? No, it was prophetically so. It was where God met with Jacob, and he signified this. Is the local church literally the Gate of Heaven? Not really, but is it where we meet with God? Is the local church a microcosm of the Church, the Body of Christ? Is it where the Presence can be expected? Is it a place where angels can ascend and descend? Can we expect Go to speak to us there? Is it reasonable to think this in the same way Jacob did?

    The Gate of Heaven Jacob saw was an access point to the Presence of God. It was marked by a stone at Bethel.

    However, it could be anywhere at anytime, as I said in my comment. So indeed it could be in a local church any given Sunday any where. It is indeed accessed through true worshippers, whom God is seeking, accessed through praise and worship. We will enter his gates through thanksgiving, and enter his courts through praise.

    He is with us always, and will be until the end, but Jesus is also enthroned in our praises. He is seated at the right hand of he Father, and yet he joins in our praises of the Father.

    You limit the Gates of Heaven to a certain place and time. I say it is here, and could be in any place where God is honoured, or where He deems to appear..

    It is quite reasonable to use the Gates of Heaven as an analogy of the Church. It is a place of worship and adoration.

    Personally I think it is more useful to be entering the Gates of Hades to rescue the lost.

  25. Facelift, they taught us that the Sunday corporate gathering is the only gateway to heaven, and if you gather as 2 or 3, while you can still experience God’s presence, you are not at the gateway to heaven, so you cannot experience the fullness of his presence.

    In other words, if 2 or 3 gather in Jesus name, he is there with them but they cannot access the gateway to heaven, but if 200 or 3000 gather in His Name, they can. Thus if you gather as 2 or 3, you have limited access to God.

  26. FL says:
    “Are you saying that Jacob met with Jesus Christ at Bethel? How so? Jesus Christ appeared to the Jews several centuries later.”

    Gen 28:12-13
    And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!
    And behold, the Lord stood over and beside him and said, I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father [forefather] and the God of Isaac; I will give to you and to your descendants the land on which you are lying.

    Umm… Yes he did. If Jacob SAW the Lord God standing before him where He said ‘I am the Lord’, Jacob indeed saw Jesus. This is the same Jesus he wrestled with who blessed Jacob, yet did not reveal His name. Christian’s forget that God is Spirit, but spirits can manifest themselves to portray what they are. God’s spirit was made manifest before Jacob that night. The Lord revealed himself to Jacob but hid his identity from him- but alluded to himself being Jesus Christ. We then see Jesus Christ use the ladder to represent himself.

    John 1:51 Then He said to him, “I assure you, most solemnly I tell you all, you shall see heaven opened, and the ANGELS OF GOD ASCENDING AND DESCENDING UPON THE SON OF MAN”! (emph added)

    So the spirit of God who manifest himself as a being, and a typified ladder spoke prophetically over Jacob’s life and descendants. It was this spirit that is commonly referred to as THE Angel Of The Lord. This is the spirit that spoke to Moses, saved Israel, made the pillars of fire, etc. It was this angel/spirit that bought the wrath of God and made Himself manifest to certain individuals in the Old Testament. This Spirit was Jesus who was waiting the apprpriate time to make himself in the flesh as Jesus the Anointed One- fully God and fully man. He was Israel’s guardian. Israel’s spiritual ruler, spiritual prince. Other nations had their own spiritual princes and guardians; there was the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece. Jesus Christ was the Prince of Israel who, at the appropriate time, took on flesh. Jesus Christ was before the foundations of the world. His name was revealed as Wisdom and was (the Architect) with God. Prov 8:12-30

    Proverbs 30:4 Proves that Jesus Christ is indeed the God of Heaven and earth. Up in the heavens and beside Jacob. Interceding on our behalf in the heavens, yet beside us. He is the Gate. He is the only access we have into the Kingdom of Heaven. He met with Jacob then as he met with the Jews only in different form. Now he meets with us through His Holy Spirit.

    “The Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of Heaven. It has always been. The Gate is where God chooses it to be. Jesus is the door, and the gate, but he did not appear to Jacob as the Jesus of the New Testament, since he was not named ‘Jesus’ yet, or born of the virgin, so could only have been the Gate Jacob named in a prophetic way, which would declare that there was an entrance point to the Church, which is the Body of Christ, Christ being the Head. We enter through the veil, that is Christ’s flesh, and through his blood.”

    From my understanding, the Kingdom of Heaven is the spiritual kingdom.
    The Kingdom of God is the Physical Kingdom.
    We will see this same physical kingdom as the Jews are expecting when Christ returns to rule in the 1000 yr period. Christ is the gateway to both the spiritual and physical Kingdom. However, first one must be given a new life; being born again spiritually by accepting Christ to access the Kingdom of Heaven. Through our spiritual bond as Christ’s bride we have power and authority in the spiritual realm. These things can be made to manifest in the physical realm.

    Later, one must be given new bodies to rule in the physical Kingdom of God. This happens when we are raised from the dead- where me manifest the Kingdom of Heaven in the Physical. In the Kingdom of God we will be given authority, not only in the spiritual world but in the physical world. We will rule with him.

    The marriage supper of the Lamb not only marries us to Christ, but also merges the physical Kingdom with the Spiritual Kingdom into the perfect Kingdom of God here on earth. Just like how two nations become reconciled when a foreign prince marries a foreign princess, so to will the Kingdom of Heaven be manifest through the physical Kingdom, the Kingdom of God.

    Can you see why it’s important that Christ only is the gate? The only way? The only ladder? The only mediator?

    At least you had a good taste of my beliefs. My beliefs change every now and then, so maybe I’m still speaking out of some ignorance. But I’m passionate about learning these things and this is what I currently believe.

    “The Gate of Heaven Jacob saw was an access point to the Presence of God. It was marked by a stone at Bethel.”

    God could have visited Jacob anywhere, which God did do. Later in another dream, God wrestled with Jacob. If this didn’t happen first, he might have called the wrestling location Bethel. The probable reason why Jacob called the place ‘House of God’ was because this was the same place God revealed to Abraham that this was to be the land granted to Abraham’s HOUSEHOLD.

    Abraham is Jacob’s grand-father. If this was the place God spoke to Abraham and then the first place to speak directly to Jacob about their descendants living in this land, it makes sense that Jacob would call the location ‘House of God’.
    It seems, by accident, that Jacob didn’t realise that he stumbled upon where His grandfather met God powerfully and was given a promise. So to remember the significance of the place, he named the place ‘Bethel’.

  27. FL says:
    “You limit the Gates of Heaven to a certain place and time. I say it is here, and could be in any place where God is honoured, or where He deems to appear…
    It is quite reasonable to use the Gates of Heaven as an analogy of the Church.”

    Where did I limit the ‘Gates of Heaven’ to a certain place and time?
    And can you further expand your explanation on the ‘Gates of Heaven’ as an analogy of the church?

  28. I found a fantastic Jewish article written about Jacob and his encounters with God. It seems to push that Jacob continually had encounters had encounters with God but still didn’t know him. They saw allot of what Jacob said to mean very little as he spoke out of ignorance as he had no understanding of God and thought he could exploit this God through his works. I’ll see if I can find it. We did a a bible study on this. It was well received.

    And that’s a great find teddy. Poor bill palmer! A lover of truth and goodwill. If CCC didn’t kick him, he would have really blessed the place with his knowledge.

  29. Ok so whatI don’t get is how everyone is having a rant about this, because if you are believing in God then you should be totally amping that people are doing stuff to build his kingdom, Do you just want to check yourselves that you are not being jelous that these guys are actually getting vsions from God and having the guts to take a step out in faith and actually live for him, actually do something about what this blog is about which, is awakining confrence which is about Young Adults being unified and impacted by God. And in Comment to phil pringle aparently not being apart of the Jesus revolution, if he wasn’t back then… he most surely is now! And he bult his church in 1980, he didnt get saved then. So maybe he was in part of it?

    Seriously, just because you are writing in blogs does not scrap you out from being apart of the kingdom of God, it doesn’t mean that you are exempt from the commandments in mark 12:30 Jesus tells us that the greates commandment is to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ and if you are lovng God you are loving your brothers and sisters as yourself, as it goes on to say about loving your neighbour….. so really what is this gaining? are yu really building the kingdom of heaven? As sons and daughtes of christ? or are you just being like kids who don’t agree and don’t want to move forward,
    These guys are all doing such amazing things for the kingdom of God, and as a young person, i Do see why maybe Anglican, Baptist etc are feeling stink, but i used to go to an anglican church, and yeah God cranked it there but I just couldn’t hack it, i needed to really feel the presence of God, i needed to have a place where i could bring my friends and know that they would recieve somethig from God, and yeah God was in tha church, but if you have never heard about God you are not going to go to something super old with music and people you find old and really wierd,
    So you have to market it at the age group… in a language that young people or the people understand because a non churched person wont Go because you tell them to! Seriously it doesn’t work like that, But when they see people that are totallly passionate abot what they do, they see that they really do have something in there life that is keepin them cranking, thatis something that changes people, somrthing that makes them maybe a bit more keen to go.
    If you see someone who doesn’t give a crap about whatthey are advertising would you go?

    God is not about kicking it back in the day he is about moving forward, and if you are not into that then sweet, but don’t bitch about other peple who are doing gods will and totally making a difference in the world, by giving people an opportunity to experience the grace and love of God. As christians the light and love of God should be shining at all times, so seriously what is so bad about wha they are saying, there message is OUR HEARTS HIS GLORY, are we missing that point by getting stuck on our own selfish crap? our hearts are for the glory of God, so we need to not focus on our selves but on him and all our stuff will come as we focus on him!

  30. Hey JustMe. Thankyou for sharing and provoking us to think about what we do for the kingdom. I have personally met a few people from signposts and they are wonderful people. They tend be just as effective as these people you look up to. There are some extraordinary people on Signposts.

    Sometimes we write emotionally. Other times we are more observant, critical or relaxed in our posts. I would like to comment about some of the things you raised. You’ve made some very interesting observations where I would like to share another perspective with you. It seems like you attend CCC Change.

  31. Hey,
    I actually don’t attend change, i go to a ccc in new zealand, and i go to primal, aswell as running the christian group at my school. So although my heart is in what Primal and C3 is doing, I do have to lok from other perspectives and all that, but i think it is about us building the kingdom of God, where ever we go… we as people are the church and in unity there is so much power, and as 2 or 3 amazing things can happen they honestly can but as this body of christ grows (and that is what we are wanting?) we need to raise up together, unified. well for me my heart is to see this world changed by God, and it really doesn’t matter what church you go to… but if we cut each other down we are kind of being like ok God you are amazing but i hate what you are using this person to do, i don’t think its right… and thats not our place to have that attitude, coz if we do then it just hurts people around us and prevents these people that don’t know God from coming to know him… And like phil pringle does amazing things and his heart is for this movement he has started, and trust me when God has put something on yur heart you can’t help but rave about it, Thats whats happend for me and my high school.

    But aswell yu knd of have to put yourself in his shoes because he has to run a movement across the globe, we just go to church and do stuff and that can get hardcore, he is in it 24/7, and us as humans are so far from perfect, so we are going to make mistakes.

    I Guess just stuff to think about

  32. I totaly don’t mean it as a stink thing to the people on here, i get that its like a discussion thing,

    but really so many people are doing amazing things Like Benny Hinn, Tim Hall, Yongi Cho, and Brian Houston Etc, i just don’t think that it is fair for us to knock what they are/have done to bring Glory to God and a new passion and inspiration to the people around us, because they are people who God has chosen to crank it and they would not be able to do what they do with out God, becaus the amount of stff that comes against you from christians and non christians would be crazy insane, so you really do have to be called to do it, and you don’t have to be a huge pro preacher or whatever to impact people because it is the way us as christian people live ur daily lives, the way we walk talk and do life that has an amazing impact, when we make that choice to leave our lives behind and follow the life of christ, we need to let Christ who is alive in us show, as hard as it can be to let go of stuff that hacks us off, of stuff that makes us get fired up, we have to show love and kindness from the deepest places of our heart… because when we rise above, an know that we are living for something bigger, that is when people go what the heck, that person is nice to everyone, that person is not fake, they actually mean it when they’re nice. They have problems happening but yet they are ok, they have have hope in something… maybe i need that too…

    Because as much as we don’t want to have a superficial Jesus thing happening, the world is totally watching christian people and for us to actually come together and not cut down the people who are chosen to lead, but be the change we want to be in the world… as cheesey as that is… because by having grumps and what not about stuf aren’t we kinda stooping to some form of worldly level? like we aren’t above above people but we should be cranking the positive rather than just adding to the negitive that is dished out by this world?

  33. JustMe JustSaid:
    “Ok so whatI don’t get is how everyone is having a rant about this, because if you are believing in God then you should be totally amping that people are doing stuff to build his kingdom, Do you just want to check yourselves that you are not being jelous that these guys are actually getting vsions from God and having the guts to take a step out in faith and actually live for him, actually do something about what this blog is about which, is awakining confrence which is about Young Adults being unified and impacted by God. And in Comment to phil pringle aparently not being apart of the Jesus revolution, if he wasn’t back then… he most surely is now! And he built his church in 1980, he didnt get saved then. So maybe he was in part of it?”

    I took it back, that my knowledge of Phil and the JM for being slightly askew. But he did come right into it at the end of the move. He is NOT apart of it. He only serves to be an embarassment to the movement. He would be the very person who would have kicked out people from the movement. Research the movement first and then spend a few weeks in Phil’s ministry to see if it’s anything like it. He has simply added to the corruption of the Jesus Movement and has built his own empire dynasty out of it.

    “Seriously, just because you are writing in blogs does not scrap you out from being apart of the kingdom of God, it doesn’t mean that you are exempt from the commandments in mark 12:30 Jesus tells us that the greates commandment is to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ and if you are lovng God you are loving your brothers and sisters as yourself, as it goes on to say about loving your neighbour….. so really what is this gaining? are you really building the kingdom of heaven? As sons and daughters of christ? or are you just being like kids who don’t agree and don’t want to move forward,”

    I believe so. One thing I found attractive about Signposts was that it engaged in intellectual discussion (most of the time) on important issues. What I hope this blog achieves now that I run it is a bit more respect for people who share there opinions. I respect yours and have listened to your comments. I hope that you have time to listen what we have to say. There are many unintelligent Christians that give Christianity a bad name. Signposts shows people that there are independent Christians who are aware of the wolves and bad things things that happen in the church. In our attempt to expose, address or contemplate certain issues, they can see that we are trying to live responsible Christian lives and make those in authority accountable and responsible. Unfortunately Phil Pringle is not. If you browse a few articles here on Signposts or on other places on the web, you can see why.

    Out of love, I would like this blog to make people aware of some of the things that go on in CCC and Hillsong and other abusive ministries that are not healthy and can be quite dangerous. I try to promote Christians to think and question what they are taught.

    Our biggest problem is what you’ve just put your finger on. Sometimes we can go into minor details that may be irrelevant to the problems. Some of these minor things that I seem to address are major to me, unfortunately. It looks like I majored a minor.

    JustMe JustSaid:
    These guys are all doing such amazing things for the kingdom of God, and as a young person, i Do see why maybe Anglican, Baptist etc are feeling stink, but i used to go to an anglican church, and yeah God cranked it there but I just couldn’t hack it, i needed to really feel the presence of God, i needed to have a place where i could bring my friends and know that they would recieve somethig from God, and yeah God was in tha church, but if you have never heard about God you are not going to go to something super old with music and people you find old and really wierd,”
    These are issues we explore. If CCC equips local ministries, why don’t they help have outreaches with the anglican church? Why isn’t the anglican church where you are from more focussed on winning young people? Will ministries work together or will they remain divided? Why doesn’t the church teach people how to win the unsaved to God rather encourage people to come to church to be saved? Wouldn’t that solve a few problems?

    JustMe JustSaid:
    So you have to market it at the age group… in a language that young people or the people understand because a non churched person wont Go because you tell them to! Seriously it doesn’t work like that, But when they see people that are totallly passionate abot what they do, they see that they really do have something in there life that is keepin them cranking, thatis something that changes people, somrthing that makes them maybe a bit more keen to go.
    If you see someone who doesn’t give a crap about whatthey are advertising would you go?”
    If people are passionate about God, would they really care what type of church they go to? It seems that as long as young people are with young people that’s what keeps them passionate. Is this meaning of ‘passion’ biblical? To me this form of passion is a lie. And this lie is bred through marketing. A lie that you will be forever on fire for God and conquer the world. We need to be so careful what passion drives us. My time in CCC has proven again and again that sensationalism is what drives people, not the Holy Spirit. In experience and feelings is what people going to church. God is more then just an experience or some wonder drug. I’ve studied marketing, specifically to young audiences and it is incredibly unhealthy, manipulative and down-right deceptive or divisive. Emotions and imagery play an important role in propaganda. This is what certain churches use to promote their ‘noble’ cause.

    JustMe JustSaid:
    “God is not about kicking it back in the day he is about moving forward, and if you are not into that then sweet, but don’t bitch about other peple who are doing gods will and totally making a difference in the world, by giving people an opportunity to experience the grace and love of God.”
    I seriously question Phil’s motives with his movement. His doctrines aren’t biblical, his movement borders on cult-like and he continually seems to undermine God and his church. Do you forget that WE DO NOT BUILD HIS CHURCH? Christ builds the church. And yet CCC as a whole brags about building the church and saving the lost.

    JustMe JustSaid:
    As christians the light and love of God should be shining at all times, so seriously what is so bad about wha they are saying, there message is OUR HEARTS HIS GLORY, are we missing that point by getting stuck on our own selfish crap? our hearts are for the glory of God, so we need to not focus on our selves but on him and all our stuff will come as we focus on him!
    Now here’s a contradiction right here. Maybe your minister is different, but what did he teach you last week and the week before? Things about how to make you a better person? Ten ways to become prosperous? Why it’s important to give? How you can live with influence? How to live you dreams? How to live a life with faith? How to obtain excellence? By all means we need not focus on ourselves, but CCC OFGS preaching usually does.

  34. What is so wrong with learning how to be a better person? could that not be what we are striving to do each day? we are focusing this month on the favour of God, connecting with God, living in his glory…

    You say that we do not build his church? did Jesus not say to peter “on this rock i will build my church” peter was a disciple of christ, we are also called to be disciples and make disciple of all nations… so therefore we ar called to build the chrch through the body of christ…

    Yeah God is More than just an experience or a drug as you say, he is the creator of the heavens and the earth, and we live with faith in him, faith by being sure of what we hope for and certian of what we can not see, and i am not going to crank the being a christian is so glorious and so easy thing, because it is not, it is without a doubt the hardest thing to follow God, get up pray and read the bible everyday, and build on the relationship i have, sometimes stuff goes wrong, things don’t happen the way you want them to, but that is why you have people around you that keep you encouraged, which is why for so many young people they go where there is other young people, because they are weak and they need to have the people around them to keep them “safe” it is one thing to get them to come to church, but to get them to come to church without young people in it, that would be crazy mission, and im not talking young people that go to church or have known God before, i mean complete never set foot in church before young people. Even for me at school, i see the kids that i know have been in church forever have totally had amzing stuff happen in there worlds, yet they show absolute zero amount of God in the way they do life, as a young person, you are so easily influenced by the people around you, and the marketing for church events is seriously not that bad, i don’t know about aussie, but in new zealand, the marketing for example burger king is like girls eating burgers wearing bikinis on horses… that is down right deceptive marketing, burgers do not equal skinny burgers do not come with hot girl on a horse….. ever. that is totally unhealthy. where as church advertising doesn’t say that, and at events i have been to young people get a touch of God in there worlds, and they enter into the presece of God, yeah he is always with us and will never leave nor forsake us, but sometimes you just can’t feel him. and these people have that life changing moment, so how can that really be that bad, atleast some way some how they are recieving God in there worlds.

    The lost do need to be saved though, i don’t know about other people but my friends and my family who don’t know God i don’t want them to die and not Go to heaven, i want to kick it with them for eternity. Because what really is the point of life if we keep God all to ourselves and only show the people who know about him? for real though how would you get young people in to church??

    And just about the opinions thing, yeah that is totally important, and this has been cool like discussing this because you so need to be able to listen to others thoughts and all that, and respect for your thoughts too!

    And just in the ministries working together thing, i don’t know why they don’t do that, but i know that people from other churches go and speak at events held by different churches, is that not helping with out reach? I ran youth at the anglican church, but the stuff that i wanted to do was not really accepted, like the older people were not really into mving into the new stuff.. music and that, and i was not in the best place spiritually, i didn’t have my relationship with God on a level of leadership slash i didn’t really have the relationship at ll, it was just God is big he rocks, lets do fun stuff, and lets just go out and do all this other un godly fun stuff too… so i did that some how went to a primal youthchurch and it stole my heart and i wrestled with god on changing churches fo a few months, and he told me to change, and it has been the most life changing thing for me. As i have grown in God and all that. and that is what happen for the youth there, there has now been a youth pastor employed and they are starting a new group up.

    But man you are so so allowed to have your thoughts and its cool that there is this site for people to talk about stuff, and its cool that you encourage christians to think about what they are taught.

    For me, i do not feel that the c3 / hillsong churches are abusive, we have sermons and all that on a sunday and at youth etc and the word that is preached and all that totally inspires me to deepen my relationship with God, build on my faith, make my vision bigger, and i am able to have support from people around me, for the things that i do, i am able to recieve things from God, and that is what is important to me in a church. among other things… but i totally need to sleep right now.

    Thanks for the thinking, and no hard feelings either.

  35. JustMe JustSaid:
    But really so many people are doing amazing things Like Benny Hinn, Tim Hall, Yongi Cho, and Brian Houston Etc, i just don’t think that it is fair for us to knock what they are/have done to bring Glory to God and a new passion and inspiration to the people around us, because they are people who God has chosen to crank it and they would not be able to do what they do with out God, because the amount of stuff that comes against you from Christians and non Christians would be crazy insane.

    Unfortunately, we promote people to be aware of some of those people you have mentioned. A few years ago I went to Benny Hinn and was convinced he was a man of God. And now I am completely convinced he is a wolf. His doctrines, his greed and his lack of trust with the government to see if he is honest with his finances is troubling. We need to remain aware that even though that God raises wonderful men and women of God, they are still human and can fall into terrible pride and be transformed by greed. But once God has given them wonderful gifts, it says in the bible that He will not take back the gifts he has given. So there are people who do work signs and wonders in the church and take advantage of others because of them. Until he repents and shows he can be trusted, I don’t want him to return to Australia. His time in CCC at OFGS proved this man was a huckster. It was so disturbing. It would have made you want to get out of the building.

    Joyce Meyer is another wonderful woman of God. In news I’ve received from friends of Hillsong, she was invited to speak a few weeks ago ended up rebuking the church for being a club and not getting out and being in the community. Some nice advice. However a years ago at a Hillsong conference she apologised to everyone for teaching out of ignorance things she did not know. She had received a revelation on what it means to be a mother in the faith and she apologised for a number of the things she taught. It was incredibly beautiful. But you have to wonder, and I’m sure she wonders too, how much damage was undone.

    Bentley, Bevere, Cho, Comfort, Copeland, Creflo, Houston, Jacobs, Munsey, Osteen, Warren… And other pastors, leaders and prophets in general, we become skeptic about. We all debate, discuss and argue and see many different sides (and sometimes miss seeing the other persons side completely). We either leave them alone because they’re alright until another article comes up or labels them as being unsafe and hopefully promote unsafe ministries so that people may not be abused by them. I’d consider CCC OFGS quite an unsafe ministry. Some would go further and label Phil Pringle as a wolf. I’m on the fence with this at the moment.

    What I do know is that other various CCC ministries have very little to do with CCCOF and just get along in their suburbs and communities with much success. But the train of doctrine, how one must think, behave and get on in a church environment is still there. Probably in your church. A few doctrines that are not biblical are doctrines such as the Prosperity Doctrine, Submission Doctrine, Word of Faith Doctrine, Covering Doctrine and Tithe Doctrine. One really deceptive one that appears harmless but is probably one of the worst is what I call Magazine Preaching- Ten Ways To Become A Better Person. This is something that is really common but leaves each member hungry for more next week but never gets them closer to God because they are so focused on works. The talk would generally teach you how to become a better person, an influential person, a powerful person, a perfect person, fulfilled person, happy person and a person of EXCELLENCE. It’s works and condemnation. And it has devastated quite a few I know from CCCOF.

    I may be wrong, but I found you kind of echoed this kind of preaching here:

    “So you really do have to be called to do it, and you don’t have to be a huge pro preacher or whatever to impact people because it is the way us as christian people live ur daily lives, the way we walk talk and do life that has an amazing impact, when we make that choice to leave our lives behind and follow the life of Christ, we need to let Christ who is alive in us show, as hard as it can be to let go of stuff that hacks us off, of stuff that makes us get fired up, we have to show love and kindness from the deepest places of our heart… because when we rise above, an know that we are living for something bigger, that is when people go what the heck, that person is nice to everyone, that person is not fake, they actually mean it when they’re nice. They have problems happening but yet they are ok, they have have hope in something… maybe i need that too…”

    Don’t get me wrong, it’s a nice attribute to have, but it’s impossible unless you spend quality time with God in prayer and scripture, also being open to His Spirit. There will come a time when you are at CCC you will see them wanting you to support them, their movement, their vision and want you to be one of the thousands that fill their stadiums; but at the same time they are still wanting to prepare you to ‘get out there’, because you’r not good enough yet. But maybe next Sunday. They will possibly encourage you to come to SOM so that they can refine your thinking and show you how the game is played. But as I said earlier, maybe CCCOF doesn’t have tight reigns where you are. I’m surprised the mother lets her children run around so freely. That’s good for you.

    JustMe JustSaid:
    “Because as much as we don’t want to have a superficial Jesus thing happening, the world is totally watching christian people and for us to actually come together and not cut down the people who are chosen to lead, but be the change we want to be in the world… as cheesy as that is… because by having grumps and what not about stuff aren’t we kinda stooping to some form of worldly level? like we aren’t above above people but we should be cranking the positive rather than just adding to the negative that is dished out by this world?”

    Actually. The world is not watching you and me. They are watching those that parade on the TV screens and then have an opinion on who believes these ‘big guys’. You don’t think those pastors in business suits who parade like peacocks with their ‘influence’ have had effect on how people portray Christianity? Through these guys they have already labeled you and me as being stupid, gullible and as though we have no idea what we are talking about. I think some pastors have made the church look so worldly that they make us look like an embarrassment to the rest of the world. You have to fight their conditioned stereotyped view of Christianity. For us to fight back and to have an opinion could mean we’re worldly. Or it could mean we are trying to discover and fight for what are true spiritual freedoms really are.

    BTW. It sounds your CCC in New Zealand sounds nowhere near as sick as the mother one does in OF (Oxford Falls). The superficial Jesus is pretty strong and ripe at the moment, especially with their Presence Conference this year, the way they handled World Youth Day here and the way they bagged them out and discouraged people from going. They were sponsors of the event yet slagged them out pretty badly.
    For a church that is meant to be changing the world, they encourage their ministry students to stick to their movements and offer very little help to local churches in Sydney and other places of the world. I have heard a few reports of this happening.

    I have also heard shocking reports of them mimicking other ministries or offering services to the sick that other ministries have been dealing with and then supplied transport and more expensive services to get them to come to their church. Those churches were very unhappy. Someone in CCCOF made those choices to sheep steal. CCCOF offers NO support to local ministries. I have not heard of one instance. I have met some SOM students who, for some reason (and I believe have been taught), believe that any other ministry that is not CCC is a failure. This is because they have not embraced strong leadership and struggle with their faith in where God wants to take them.

    JustMe JustSaid:
    “because by having grumps and what not about stuff aren’t we kinda stooping to some form of worldly level? like we aren’t above above people but we should be cranking the positive rather than just adding to the negative that is dished out by this world?”

    Would you consider Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah, Hosea, John, Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, Luther, Theresa and Mandela being worldly for fighting against authority and taking a stand on issues they believed in. I hope you continue to explore what is on a ‘wordly level’ and what isn’t. It’s like every family has a grumpy gramps. And the human body will always have some unatractive detail to them. Consider Signposts02 as being the ‘unnoticeable eye’. While CCC and other glamour organisations do their job as the body of Christ, it might be good once in while for them to listen to the eye in their pants to see if their teachings are being digested well. Not all functions in the body of Christ are fun or pretty in the slightest. But all have a function and bring glory to God. I have trouble with those who have gifts of excorcism and leadership. Leadership have problems with prophets. Prophets have problems with leadership and ‘pastors’. ‘Pastors’ have problems with ‘teachers’. But as long as each member of the body listens and respects what the other parts of the body, the body will remain in good health. Their are some churches that refuse to function and listen to the wider body. Yours might be and sound and completely healthy.

  36. JustMe JustSaid:
    “You say that we do not build his church? did Jesus not say to peter “on this rock i will build my church” peter was a disciple of christ, we are also called to be disciples and make disciple of all nations… so therefore we ar called to build the chrch through the body of Christ.”
    We need to acknowledge that the church is the people. God brings man salvation. He convicts and moves in. When we are called to make disciples, we aren’t calling people to be saved. We are calling those certain individuals to push on with their relationship with God; having God himself disciple them- not us disciple man. By all means we should help our fellow brother. But above else we need to make sure that dialogue and relationship between God and person is fully functional so God can guide them to greater things. So we do not build his church, God does. We help point and make people rely on Christ as their teacher, not ourselves.

    JustMe JustSaid:
    “Which is why for so many young people they go where there is other young people, because they are weak and they need to have the people around them to keep them “safe” it is one thing to get them to come to church, but to get them to come to church without young people in it, that would be crazy mission, and I’m not talking young people that go to church or have known God before, i mean complete never set foot in church before young people. Even for me at school, i see the kids that i know have been in church forever have totally had amazing stuff happen in there worlds, yet they show absolute zero amount of God in the way they do life, as a young person, you are so easily influenced by the people around you, and the marketing for church events is seriously not that bad, i don’t know about Aussie, but in new zealand, the marketing for example burger king is like girls eating burgers wearing bikinis on horses… that is down right deceptive marketing, burgers do not equal skinny burgers do not come with hot girl on a horse….. ever. that is totally unhealthy. where as church advertising doesn’t say that, and at events i have been to young people get a touch of God in there worlds, and they enter into the presence of God, yeah he is always with us and will never leave nor forsake us, but sometimes you just can’t feel him. and these people have that life changing moment, so how can that really be that bad, at least some way some how they are receiving God in there worlds.”

    Let me give you insight into the world of marketing. It was only in the early 1990’s that the advertising industry suddenly realized the potential of teen marketing and targeting gullible ages from 2-25. They know psychology. They know colour, shape, light and what we respond too. They know the power of sex and know how to portray something powerful, influential, enticing, new, exciting, sensational and experiential. Through marketing, they have specifically separated kids from parents. Companies are now the better parents (because they know what is better for you). Unfortunately, the church has not noticed this and it has crept into church culture, environment and church advertising. Because of it, elders and youth have trouble bridging such a gap. Some churches struggle with this. But the idea that youth are always separate from parents, married couples, middle-sged, singles and elders; the idea of segregation of age really breaks up the natural bonds between child and parent; teen and elder, etc. How does one talk to an old man? Is he left out? Are you at all encouraged at all to listen to his stories and wisdom? Churches, just like companies, take the place of parents or grandparents and re-inforce young people that young people and the church are all you need to have a healthy, stable, successful Christian life. This is not true. Friends add to your life, but they are not foundational as parents. The church similarly starts taking the parents role and demands the youth to spend time with the organisation and ‘friends’ rather then family and parents.

    JustMe JustSaid:
    “The lost do need to be saved though, i don’t know about other people but my friends and my family who don’t know God i don’t want them to die and not Go to heaven, i want to kick it with them for eternity. Because what really is the point of life if we keep God all to ourselves and only show the people who know about him? for real though how would you get young people in to church?”
    If you really love them, you’ll spend more time with them I guess. If God has put a hunger in you to see your family saved, go for it. You’ll be in my prayers mate.

    JustMe JustSaid:
    “And just about the opinions thing, yeah that is totally important, and this has been cool like discussing this because you so need to be able to listen to others thoughts and all that, and respect for your thoughts too!”
    I’ve written back to you. But don’t underestimate what you’ve written. The cogs in my brain are turning as I contemplate what you’ve said. Thankyou for your time.

    JustMe JustSaid:
    And just in the ministries working together thing, i don’t know why they don’t do that, but i know that people from other churches go and speak at events held by different churches, is that not helping with out reach?
    My understanding of an idea of outreach is churches combining resources to pull off an important yet fun event for a community. To see it blessed, impacted, changed and saved. Having a few individuals from one church may represent ‘a’ church, but it’s not as, I believe, effective.

    JustMe JustSaid:
    I ran youth at the anglican church, but the stuff that i wanted to do was not really accepted, like the older people were not really into moving into the new stuff.. music and that, and i was not in the best place spiritually, i didn’t have my relationship with God on a level of leadership slash i didn’t really have the relationship at ll, it was just God is big he rocks, lets do fun stuff, and lets just go out and do all this other un godly fun stuff too… so i did that some how went to a primal youthchurch and it stole my heart and i wrestled with god on changing churches fo a few months, and he told me to change, and it has been the most life changing thing for me. As i have grown in God and all that. and that is what happen for the youth there, there has now been a youth pastor employed and they are starting a new group up.”

    Well it’s important to know that no church owns you and your lifestyle. God does. It’s good to be in a church that keeps you accountable by word, spirit and action. Are you at PRIMAL for a season or for a good while until God calls you elsewhere?

    JustMe JustSaid:
    But man you are so so allowed to have your thoughts and its cool that there is this site for people to talk about stuff, and its cool that you encourage christians to think about what they are taught.
    Well we’d love to hear what your church is up too locally and if there is any cool thing that you’ve learnt from your teachers or any cool revelation you receive. We love to ponder and take on board what others say. We’d love to heare about what type of community work CCCNZ do and what the people are like at your church.

    JustMe JustSaid:
    “For me, i do not feel that the c3 / hillsong churches are abusive, we have sermons and all that on a sunday and at youth etc and the word that is preached and all that totally inspires me to deepen my relationship with God, build on my faith, make my vision bigger, and i am able to have support from people around me, for the things that i do, i am able to recieve things from God, and that is what is important to me in a church. among other things… but i totally need to sleep right now.”
    Well I’m happy that you haven’t seen or been through any of the things that some members from Signposts have gone through with various church ministries in Australia, including Hillsong and CCC (and now including Brisbane Christian Fellowship, BCF).

    Have a good night. I hope to hear from you soon.

  37. Well said S&P. JM – I’m impressed that while you disagree with many of our views, you do so without condeming us for having them. Thanks.

    I would say that when I was ‘youth’, I would have agreed with JM’s approach completely. I was at CCCOF, before it moved to OF. Over the years, those views have been challenged, and now I see things along the lines that S&P has described here. I would always want to acknowledge that God does indeed work through CCC and Hillsong, and through those who seek to serve Him everywhere.

    Still, I can’t see scriptural justification for many of their dearly held doctrines, particularly those about hierarchical leadership structures, especially the corporate model, prosperity doctrine and open heaven etc (that last is essentially heaven opening to you as a result of obedience; plus the church is sometimes portrayed as the ‘gateway to heaven’ implying you get less access elsewhere).

    I know from my own walk and that of friends both within and without the CCC movement that certainly if one desires a relationship with God more than the approval of man, that we will be led in God’s direction for our lives and our relationship with Him will deepen. Regardless of where we are. For me, that has led me out of the CCC movement. Nonetheless, there was a time when it was good for me to be there.

    God bless you, JM.

  38. Okay. I initially said:
    “They were the outcome of it. From my understanding, in talking to many people, including my parents and elders that were apart of it- it was noted as an official movement and started in 1965, ending , many have said, between 1975-1980. With the movement in Australia, definitely before the year 1980. However, the movement still left an impact on Christendom- some would say for the better, others would say for the worst. The Pringles were NEVER apart of it but were an outcome of it.”

    I WAS WRONG. And so were those that ASSUMED INCORRECTLY. I’ve learnt assumation is not good enough when criticising someone’s take on history; that’s where myths come from.

    I managed to put my tendrils and feelers out and managed to learn some fascinating things. A good friend of mine from CCC managed to get me some very old interesting documents pertaining to Phil and CCCOF Sydney.

    It documents that in “1972 God laid a vision and a burden in Phil Pringles’s heart for the city of Sydney”.

    This particular document doesn’t have a date as to when it was made but it says “Thirteen years ago Phil Pringle had a dramatic and perhaps unexpected conversion to Jesus Christ… His zeal for Christ paved the way for youth leadership in a church in New Zealand, that was experiencing a spiritual revival. Hundreds of “hippies” and “alternative-life-styles” encountered a new way of living through Phil’s ministry. After five years Pastor Pringle began a church of his own”.

    In “1980, Pastor Pringle and Simon McIntyre arrived in Sydney knowing God had called them to this city”. Around Easter, in Deewhy, “the church met with twelve adults and their children under the name of CHRISTIAN CENTRE”. At the end of 1980, over 150 people were attending CC. “In 1981 the house church system began”. At the end of 1981, CC had approximately 200-300 people. By 1984, “the church had grown to approximately 1200 people. The primary school initially called “Northside Christian School opened to 18 infants and primary children in 1984”.

    So between 1971-1972, Phil met God. In 1972 he felt called to start a church in Sydney. For five years, led a youth group. Lets consider 1-2 years were building up to that position of youth leader and earning money (1974-5). That means he would have finished roughly between (1978-9). I would tend to lean that Phil started youth ministry between 1975-1979. And then a few years hard slog working for money to get to Australia (1978-1980).

    Good on the bloke! He certainly has achieved a lot. Apparently he used to evangelise down at the manly corso and helped the homeless down there too. He did operate in signs and healings. It seems he also had a van to transport people and foods to Manly.

    I think this document was published in 1985.

    Statement from his book “You the Leader”:

    “I walked into the Sunday evening service of a church in Christchurch, New Zealand in August 1971 and heard the gospel of Jesus Christ clearly for the first time. As Dennis Barton preached, I felt compelled to receive Christ as my Savior. Dennis and his dear wife Barbara were to become a powerful influence over my life. They took a deep interest in Chris and me and the friends we brought to church. Shortly after my conversion, literally hundreds of young people began turning to the Lord in that church…” -Phil Pringle

  39. Sorry I haven’t written back, been super busy with stuff, but thank you ravingpente for your comment about me not condemning signposts people. Totally trying not to! And sorry if i have!!! But this has been really cool for me because you don’t have hardcore ultiate convos about this… like you do but maybe only 75% as ultimate as the discussion on here.

    I don’t have time to write back to everything, should be sleeping at the moment.. opps 😀

    But just about the season thing, yeah totally, I’m in life for God, so where he wants me is totally where im gonna be, and at the moment he is blessing me with amazing opportunities to do stuff for him so that is fantastic.

    In a way i get the gateway to heaven thing… like you can totally get in to God any where any time… but in a church there are things that happen there… “signs and wonders” in-short, like people get healed set free from sin, have gifts, visions and all that happen and those things leave a residue you could say of God, so you go in to a church and the presence of God is there in abundance, like you can feel it, where say when you are out at a restaurant the presence of God is there, but you don’t quite feel it in the same way, if that makes sense? so in a way it is the gate of heaven for it is where people come to know God and make a choice to follow him, therefore entering the gate of heaven…. having eternal life, not quite going to heaven on the spot, people can totally make that choice anywhere but church is the place it is most often made. Just a thought to add to the pile.

    And with the hol people cranking Jesus stuff for wrong things… Some people do, but they get good and bad things out of it, like benny hinn does get amazing things and stuff, i personally have seen him and i liked his brothers message more than him healing people, jus the way he did it was freaky, like he was really brutal, bt i was like, ok God you have Got this, please don’t let anyone get super hurt. It was totally God doing it, but just kinda brutal… well not as bad as this doco i watched one time about “John of God” of anything ive heard Godly people do that tops the list of you totally do a ton of harm to the hol God thing… but apart from him I don’t want to knock these people who are doing things, because as far as i have seen, they do do great things for God, some in a kinda random way but it is a huge thing to stand up for God in such a huge spot light, like the amount of stick you would get from the media would totally suck, and the whole being away from your family lots and that. But i think i have said that before…

    With the hol marketing thing, i think although it is marketed at young people to attract there attention, and stuff but also when you start to go to a church you meet other people and adults aswell that can speak in to your world from a christian view, becase i know that quite a few young people come from broken, non christian or just totally munted families, and for me it has been really amazing to have an extended family and older people that support me and talk to me about stuff. I still see my parents and that too.But for me i love hearing the stories from older members of the church about what theyre doing and what they have done and how they got through stuff and all that kind of stuff.

    My Particular c3 church we run an alternitave education programme for those kids that have left school or been kicked out, so that they can gain credits to get jobs and qualifications. That is the main out reach thing that runs everyweek, but we do other things aswell.

    Yeah the body thing, we totally all have to learn to respect each other!

    Cool well ttyl

    God Bless All

  40. Well, JM, you do know what I mean about the gateway to heaven thing – you do seem to have been taught about it at C3. It wasn’t taught when I first went there, although we all enjoyed the big meetings.

    Recently I heard it taught at a C3 that only the church meeting was the ‘gateway to heaven’, and even other meetings during the week weren’t quite it.

    I can relate to the experience you describe.

    Yet, I can recall numerous occasions of being in the presence of God, as strongly in a small meeting, with 2, 3, 5 or 10 people only present, but truly worshipping or praying. This to me is in line with Jesus words when he said he was with us, whenever even 2 or 3 people gather in his name.

    I have seen people get saved in these small settings. I’ve also seen healings result from prayer in these small meetings. And so forth. So while I agree that the big church meeting can have a wonderful presence of God about it, I don’t believe that God has limited His full presence to just those occasions. Jesus is our gateway to heaven, and we have Him everywhere. We can’t limit God’s fullness just to our church meetings, and we don’t have to depend upon those big meetings to really hear from Him, experience Him, or have Him answer our heartfelt prayers. We don’t have to ‘miss out’. If God wants to speak to us, He will, regardless of where we are, if our hearts are open to Him.

    It is great to hear that you enjoy the company of elders, JM, and I also think its great to have that range of friendships.

    Your C3’s alternative education programme sounds like a great initiative; its good to hear about things like that.

    You are totally welcome here, JM – its good to have the discussions from lots of viewpoints, and as you say, with respect! I am sure that with your desire for God you will be led wherever He wants you.

  41. “I walked into the Sunday evening service of a church in Christchurch, New Zealand in August 1971 and heard the gospel of Jesus Christ clearly for the first time. As Dennis Barton preached, I felt compelled to receive Christ as my Savior. Dennis and his dear wife Barbara were to become a powerful influence over my life. They took a deep interest in Chris and me and the friends we brought to church. Shortly after my conversion, literally hundreds of young people began turning to the Lord in that church…” – Phil Pringle (book ‘You the Leader’)

  42. This has to be the bitchiest post I think I’ve come across on here so far. Talk about specks and planks – man, ever thought about what that scripture is actually talking about?

    What can I say. I guess after that post it doesn’t suprise me that you find brooke fraser the most harmless speaker on there. I guess selling sex to market your music is less of a sin to you then glossy church promos. (Knowing better and supporting them in it is even worse – but not going there on this site.)

    I hate seeing Josh Kelsey and Joel Houston following their parents ministries to wherever they lead as well – but I like and respect their parents a lot too. Everyone should always be following their own call of God to where it leads – beyond that, you’re following the easy path for whatever reason.

    Man. I’ve got a good friend on here who I think very highly of, but wiping the dust off my feet on this site. Slander is not helpful and constructive criticism. Ever.

  43. hey man,

    just wanted to say that you are going to answer to god and god alone on this.

    I like the fact that young people are turning to jesus

    who cares how it get’s done let god use his people

  44. Angelic:
    “Just wanted to say that you are going to answer to god and god alone on this.”

    Oh dear! I totally forget that I will be answering to God alone on what I do. How could I forget such a biblical truth, a bedrock church belief and a universal reality?

    Angelic:
    “I like the fact that young people are turning to jesus”

    I don’t like the fact that young people are turning to a different Jesus. And I will care in how things are done because I love, in spite of the way sometimes I say things.

    Angelic:
    “who cares how it get’s done let god use his people”

    Are you aware at all what a little leaven can do to the church unaddressed? Let God use His people to uphold his love and truth! The seeker-sensitive rubbish that young people are forced to swalllow, only making them weaker in love. This seeker sensitive nonsense also devalues people longterm, rubbishing their faith.

    Their faith will remain weak, unchallenged, ignorant and selfish in the truth if young Christian’s don’t question what spew they are eating. Generally, it’s easy to tell what youth go to Hillsong or C3 because of how shallow their beliefs and love is. Sometimes there are exceptions.

    I’m saying this not because I hate them. Far from it. I hate what they are forced to swallow. Is it a sin for me to express my concern with the dodginess that goes in places like Hillsong or C3?

  45. s&p, you make a number of extraordinary claims here, which declare your opinion that Hillsong is a cult.

    You said:

    ‘I don’t like the fact that young people are turning to a different Jesus’

    How so? What evidence do you have that Hillsong is preaching a different Jesus?

    Their teaching may not be as ‘deep’ as you’d like, but even a supposedly ‘shallow’ level of teaching is not evidence of another Jesus being preached. We preach Jesus to our 3 to seven year olds, and many are saved in Children’s Church ministries, but that is not a ‘deep’ message, or a different Jesus. It is ministering successfully to the demographic. I’m not saying Hillsong audience is shallow, either, just that the argument that a message isn’t intense and therefore it must be another Jesus is weak.

    You will have to show where there is a different Jesus.

    You said:

    ‘This seeker sensitive nonsense also devalues people long term’

    What do you mean by seeker sensitive nonsense? Is it wrong to respect the needs of those who are seeking? You claim they are ‘forced to swallow’ something. What exactly?

    The fact that Jesus has given his life so they can be saved? The fact that they are already forgiven, and need to accept the free pardon given them through his death and resurrection? We are ministers of reconciliation, no condemnation.

    Are you saying there is something seekers have to do to receive salvation? What do they have to do, apart from believe and receive God’s free pardon, and gift of salvation, that is?

    Are you pressing for a message which forces people to do something? Works? Or has Jesus already done everything that is required for them to be saved?

    Is receiving Jesus as Lord and Saviour not an act of repentance, a complete turn around for the seeking man or woman? Are you pressing people to have to crawl on their knees and beg God for forgiveness? Is that what God responds to? Or is he offering his grace in return for their faith in the finished work of the cross? ‘Wa must we do to be saved”‘ ‘Repent and be baptised’. Repent – have a change of heart which leads to a change of thinking and direction.

    It is the goodness of God which leads people to repentance. When they realise what God has done for them and what their state was before the revelation of Christ came to them, there will be time for godly sorrow and repentance not to be repented of.

    But you can’t force repentance on people. That is false repentance. A false, works based gospel. People are saved by he preaching of the good news, not the preaching of bad news.

    You said:

    ‘Their faith will remain weak, unchallenged, ignorant and selfish in the truth if young Christian’s don’t question what spew they are eating. ‘

    Your main operative is to teach people to question those who are leading them. I agree to an extent, but you go further than this, you call it ‘spew’. In other words you teach dissension to new converts, without qualifying your reasons, which is surely a dangerous practice.

    No wonder they are upset with you. You give them no choice but to take sides with you against those who are caring for them, or against your vitriol towards the doctrine of their leadership. That can’t be good.

    How would a new convert know what is right or wrong doctrine? What, they suddenly develop the kind of maturity which allows them to question those who are mentoring them?

    If you had encouraged them to read their Bible, especially the New Testament, and get a good understanding of it as matter of priority, and measure what is being taught in their church against the fundamentals of the New Covenant, I would agree with you up to a point, but your suggestion is frankly subversive and liable to create unnecessary friction.

    You said:

    ‘Is it a sin for me to express my concern with the dodginess that goes in places like Hillsong or C3’

    Oh, so you include C3! Two cults? So. show us what makes them cults. Scripturally.

    Only God can tell you if it is a sin. But it’s not right to level accusations without sound doctrinal evidence.

  46. I’ll add to this, and ask, if you think C3 is a cult, and preaches another Jesus, why do you continue to attend a ‘cult’? Or maybe you don’t?

  47. FL i think anyone has access to the New Testament, that’s the point. One can measure what’s being taught “by man” against what Jesus preached. Thats what happened to me at the pentie church i first attended. The elder told me to search the scriptures for myself (as well as attending services etc)

    I dont know all the conversation going on current posts (on sp2), i will read all the posts

  48. ok, i think S&P might be referring to what is called feeding Christians either milk or sort of the meat and potatoes of the Gospel, at least thats the notion i get. anywho, watching the news, jeez the weather has been weird lately

  49. mj,
    Everyone should measure what is taught against the Word. We teach this from the pulpit regularly. The preacher is not God. He or she is a vessel God uses to minister the Word, and they can be accurate, but can also be flawed. The Word is our measure of truth.

    s&p has stated that both Hillsong and C3 preach another Jesus. It’s a serious charge.

    This would make them cults, and anathema. He has to demonstrate this with scripture.

  50. It’s the Prosperity and Seeker-Sensitive Jesus! Even you disagree with these doctrines of theirs Facelift.

  51. BTW. Observing Josh on youtube and whenever else he’s speaked… He tows a very fine line. He is on my prayers. I find that Andrew Kubala does a great job in condemning the C3 congregation. Phil Pringle also does a great job in saying fancy things that completely contradict his other messages.

    I’ve heard him talk that the reason why we there is no revival is because of the lack of commitment to the tithe. He continually stresses to tithe to be blessed – tithe to receive – tithe to bring revival – tithe to be a blessing, tithe to break that poverty mindset… then he tweets this:

    “Psalm 46:10 – “Be still, and know that I am God!”

    This means, ‘Let go’, ’stop striving’. When we push & struggle for something to happen we are not ‘resting’ in God doing it.

    Include God in the working out of your goals. Listen to Him. ‘KNOW’ what He is doing and align yourself with His direction, pace and timing.

    It may take longer and be a different way than you would do it, but trust Him. You can’t build a spiritual Kingdom with the strength of your flesh. This is why people ‘burn out’ get stressed & struggle.

    RELAX – AND LET GO AND LET GOD.”

    http://philpringle.wordpress.com/

    In some ways it sounds like he’s contradicted himself from what he’s taught previously. But even in the above – it honestly doesn’t look as though he gets what he is saying. Occasionally, when I’ve heard him speak, he has made me feel completely sick to my stomach – literally. I refused to receive what he spoke over his congregation. You would too Facelift. One giving talk he condemned the world, condemned those in his congregation that did not tithe and were poor in finances and mind. Then promoted GREED and manipulated people into fearing what other’s say about the doctrine of the tithe. He then made a bold enough claim that the leadership knew the scriptures. He may as well have said, “Shutup, submit, obey. We know the scriptures and truth, you don’t. We know, the world doesn’t. Don’t question us.” What he said was so disgusting. Would you not think that is a Jesus of Greed, Facelift?

    It’s the same thing with Joyner and Bentley – they say all the right things. Then once everyone is in agreement with them – they throw in their own doctrines that are of fault.

    The number of times as well Pringle has tied money and works to salvation. Last year he said: “If you’re a Christian, you tithe!”

    He’s even prayed over his congregation just before they give, associating giving to unlock a life of eternity in their lives.

    The pressure on Josh Kelsey is to conform to the tithe and prosperity heresy and I do not want to see that young man go down that slippery slope. Unfortunately, I’m seeing that he is… BUT, he still preaches the gospel more brilliantly than Phil Pringle, Mark Kelsey and Andrew Kubala. James Murray has done some outstanding gospel messages too.

  52. The main complaint you have is on tithing and prosperity doctrine. This isn’t conclusive, not an indication of another Jesus being preached, but another aspect of the Word, which some would agree with you about, others wouldn’t. I won’t go down the tithing road again with you here.

    Galatians gives us the instruction about another Jesus being preached, and it referred to the Galatians being tempted to go back to the Mosaic Law of the Judaisers, and warned against Gnosticism, which was gathering momentum in those days.

    We would look at whether C3 was denying the Godhead, or that Jesus is God, or that Jesus appeared in the flesh, or that he was born of a virgin, or that he died was buried and raised, and is alive today, seated at the right hand of glory, etc.

    Would their doctrine stand up to the Nicene Creed?

    Secondly you mention works. We are not saved by works, but by grace through faith. We enter through faith.

    However we are God’s workmanship in Christ Jesus, unto good works. In other words, the works we enter once we are saved demonstrate our faith. Without works our faith is dead.

    You have to separate the two, but both are relevant. We are not saved by dead works, but we are saved for good works, which we cannot enter into unless we are saved, because they are the works of the saved person in Christ.

    So saying that a Bible teacher encourages good works isn’t preaching another Jesus, but a new way of living – the life of a saint entering his or her call.

  53. i thought this was a discussion on the Gospel, oh not tithing again…ughh

    is this a debate on “church” and leadership. Thats what it looks like, oh well. Jesus is our leader, case closed. tithing is not an essential, case closed. But giving to the poor lady down the street, giving to a charity that has a good name and giving to your brother when you dont feel like it, thats the gospel if you ask me

  54. I won’t discuss tithing here either, mj.

    The fact is, s&p has accused Hillsong and C3 of preaching another Jesus, which is a serious claim, making them cults if true. He must show where. By scripture.

  55. FL, you already know why S&P thinks this – its been blogged on many times before. Do we have to go over it again? If we do, I’ll probably just stop blogging! Teddy has posted heaps of links about ‘another Jesus’ – you know already that for example, the Reformed movement dislikes the prosperity crowd for preaching a ‘prosperity Jesus’ rather than the real Jesus. Plus, we’ve discussed Hillsong’s unusual addition to salvation doctrine, which could be taken as careless website editing, but given the resources of that church, could also be taken as a serious statement of what they believe. And it could be pedantry to think it matters, but because it is a salvation related issue, many people would regard it as important.

    Anyway – I think there are mostly many genuine believers at both C3 and Hillsong, but both teach things that are taking them down a path away from what scripture really says, which regardless of many good works in progress, won’t help individuals in their personal walks in the longer term. You no doubt disagree. I learnt things at C3 that I’m glad about, but it has changed emphasis from some of those things over the last 20 years, and in another 20 I can’t imagine how much further it might go. We are able to talk about such things here, and personally, I’d rather do it in a way that is kind to those still in the movements; but if you don’t like it, the worst thing to do is to ask S&P to explain further!!! Particularly when you already know what he has said on this in the past.

    Still, God will take care of all these things; He will move his people on from these places eventually if they genuinely seek Him, and if they have learnt all they needed to there.

    I’m not here to have a go at churches. I’d like to move forwards. I’ve enjoyed our discussions re attending church or not recently. I’d like to see Christians in these two movements recognised for their diligence and sincerity. The doctrines that are taught deserve to be questioned,

  56. hmm.

    Paul wrote to the Church in Galatia to point out to them that they should not allow themselves to be put back under the law of Moses.

    The correlation between Phil Pringle and the Judaisers in Galatia is that Tithing in the former and circumcision in the latter is a matter of compulsion.

    Do this to be blessed, do this to be a Christian, do this to truly be part of the church. Now, FL might disagree with me on that. FL might say that no one is compelled. Let’s say that is true.

    Let us assume that no one is compelled to give 10% gross through one or two offering talks every week. Let us, for the sake of argument, consider the C3 congregation under Phil as being under “Cheerful giving” rather than being compelled to give (stick) but with the encouragement that God will give back more abundantly (carrot).

    My only question is: “Why is Phil pushing that message in the middle of a global recession?”

    I will note that Galatians is really concerned with the idea that Judaism (legalism) creeps up on you unawares. Look at Joel Osteen: Tithing – now Kosher Food Laws – next Infant Baptism? – Then animal sacrifices?

    Works based religion is trying to get in. I am not saying that individuals, under no external compulsion, may not tithe. I am saying that if a Church teaches obligatory tithing … it stops being an optional choice for an individual and stops relationship with the Holy Spirit and brings in Religion.

    I want to get away from the word tithe anyway. It means 10%. Well, The Holy Spirit might say 15%. We are preventing Him from working in us.

    I don’t believe we can get a blessing from tithing anyway, beyond a spiritual blessing. The carrot is all Malachi 3. The trouble is, you cannot get the blessing unless you are operating under the Mosaic Covenant and the last time I looked, I was under a New Covenant.

    If you want to be under the Covenant God made with Moses, go ahead. However, the problem is that you are also under a curse if you do not keep God’s commandments. (613 of them!)

    And no one was able to keep them all. Only Jesus fulfilled the Law. His pass mark was 100%.

    We can’t have the blessings and leave the curses. It was a generational curse, visited on us, our children, our grand-children and our great grand-children.

    But we are free from generational curses and free from material blessings associated with tithing.

    Our giving is not just money. It’s time. It’s compassion. It being so totally different from the world around us we affect it for the better. In fact, we offer everything we have.

    What is Phil focused on?
    Well, he was invited to Bath to speak to a mixed Christian/Non-Christian audience. He was asked to give an evangelistic sermon. Maybe 750-1000 people came.

    He changed the event at the last minute and instead of preaching the Gospel, he flogged his books. The people who brought their non-christian friends were very upset, the friends thought that the church was just after their money, and everyone thought badly on Phil Pringle. It was a real mess.

    The Church fellowship in Bath left the C3i movement within about 6 weeks. There were other issues about the shepherding of the movement in Europe, but this was a very large straw on the camels back.

    It wasn’t the offense of the Gospel, it was an offensive money oriented message. Hundreds of people left after he spoke but before the singing had hardly started.

    This was an unmitigated disaster. No one came to faith, was convicted of sin or even thought better of the Church.

    A disaster.

    A money oriented message is not the Gospel of Jesus.

    Shalom

  57. RP,
    ‘Do we have to go over it again? If we do, I’ll probably just stop blogging!’

    Then I’ll disengage RP, but under the understanding that you’re saying C3 is a cult movement.

    I’ll be happy to discuss with s&p and anyone else here why I’m not a cultist, however. I’ll stay with scripture in defence, also.

  58. No! Don’t put words into my mouth! I’m not saying C3 is a cult movement. C3 still teaches a pretty straightforward salvation doctrine. It’s other doctrines that I don’t like, and that would prevent me going back there. I’ll list them if you like, but I think you already know what I would say. 🙂

  59. PP used to preach a persuasive evangelistic message. What you describe in Bath is sad, Bull.

  60. One person in C3 leadership even told me that they’re sad that the God of C3 is money, otherwise their focus will be on the gospel message and the fulfillment we have in Christ.

    I could have kissed them! (Mainly because they seem to understand what church should be about – preaching the gospel and being satisfied in God.)

    I was sad that this leader accepted the reality of C3’s money Jesus and decided to go on with it. They believed that they could make a good difference in C3 leadership with the position they held to bring positive change.

    Occasionally you meet people like this in the C3 movement who see right through the parade at the front. And it’s people like this in this leadership that need prayer. I can’t imagine it being easy for them.

  61. Now you’ve lost me, RP. s&p says C3 preaches another Jesus – making it a cult. I have asked for evidence, that’s all. I’ve never thought you considered them a cult.

  62. Oh gosh! How do you expect me to answer that Facelift without giving away too much. There’s four camps of C3 leadership:

    – Phil Pringle Leadership (PPL)
    – Bad Suck-Up Leadership (BSU)
    – Good Honest Leadership GHL) (Who always get copped the worst)
    – Skilled Whatever Leadership (SWL)

    BSU get in the way of GHL. Both BSU and GHL believe in the vision of the PPL. But the PPL have trouble discerning who is actually credible in ministry below. If PPL see good outcomes and strict obedience below, then they’ll take either from the BSU or GHL. Unfortunately the BSU get noticed first by dodgy means. And unfortunately, the PPL don’t have a clue what goes on the BSU and GHL camps. I wish they did.

    The person who said this to me was a GHL in a PPL placing. I’ve had another PPLGHL say something similar about C3 chasing a MoneyJesus.

    However I met a PPL-SWL who dropped out of ministry depressed, saying that they had to leave because C3 worshiped money. To this I strongly disagreed with. That was until they told me what they saw with the miracle offering cards.

    They told me that one of the pastors or visiting pastors (I forget now) encouraged everyone in the congregation to write on the cards/letters a miracle they wanted God to do for them as they gave money. Written on the cards were things like: ‘Hot wife’, ‘long holiday’, ‘new car’, ‘bigger penis’, ‘a mansion and a beach house’, ‘girlfriend with great boobs’, ‘job promotion’, ‘cute boyfriend’, ‘safe operation’, ‘position in leadership’, ‘company owner’, ‘more money’, ‘good sex life’, ‘car for birthday’, etc.

    They flicked through them and found that they saw there self in those offering cards/letters. All their desires were just like everyone else. They finally saw that if this is what everyone else wanted, how could they get what they wanted.

    They saw their greed staring back at them. They didn’t realised that they were encouraged to be greedy by the speaker at C3. They were repulsed by the miracle offering requests. I don’t know when they left ministry though.

    When talking to them further, they looked back and noted that the majority of the miracle offering requests had little to do with God; knowing Him intimately; asking for more of His love and faith to be their for others, etc.
    She was quite shocked and dis-illusioned from that encounter.

  63. So how far back does this go? Isolated incident?

    Why don’t you leave this place if you think it’s a cult?

  64. It sounds more like the need for a Timothy to go in and teaach the members about how to appoint GOOD leaders.

    “Anointing” or “Gifting” isn’t important. What is really important is Character.

    Of course, in a top-down leadership structure where leaders are not directly appointed by the members, it is very difficult.

    The checks and balances clearly aren’t there. They have created a clergy and laity. What they really need to do is abolish the laity. Every member ministry would be much better.

    Instead of a handful of leaders , everyone would be a priest. Right now, you get a glorified pyramid scheme.

    😦

    It’s not supposed to be PP being a CEO and telling everyone else what they should be doing. It should be Holy Spirit led, and no one I know would dream of saying that they are totally Holy Spirit led. PP certainly isn’t.

    PP has been put on a pedestal. This isn’t good for him and it certainly isn’t good for C3.

    Is there no one to tell him he is ever wrong?

    Hey FL isn’t right all the time … but at least he’s got us to tell him when he’s wrong! 😉

  65. Thanks for that Bull. I really need it, brother! 🙂

    Now for some first hand information:

    Because what you said about C3 Bath/Bristol was actually second hand information. You were not there, I understand. You heard some gossip.

    However, I gave you first hand information, in our email conversations, that the leadership were considering a change as long ago as the middle of last year, long before Phil was there. The situation in Europe has been under revision for some time. You failed to mention this, even though I had made you aware of it.

    I’m not sure what happened in the meetings in Bristol with Phil. Like you, I wasn’t there, but we’ve had him minister here in city-wide meetings, and it was full-on gospel preaching, enjoyed by all denominations present. Many were saved. It’s what he loves doing. We don’t judge a man by a single event. I have heard him many times. He’s a gospel preacher. He points people to Jesus, the real Jesus Christ of Nazareth, our Lord and Saviour. Not another Jesus! I will testify to this.

    C3 does not dictate the doctrine of affiliate churches. Phil doesn’t put out papal bulls on what pastors must teach. Churches are fully autonomous.

    Phil has good qualities. He is an exhorter and an encourager. He is generous and gregarious. A visionary, a person of purpose. A leader of leaders. Not worshipped, respected. Because of these characteristics, he doesn’t have to tell people what to do as if by law, as you claim. He teaches and exudes leadership. He does not push doctrine down anyone’s throat.

    There is a wide range of backgrounds reflected in C3 churches. Interchange of ideas is encouraged at every level.

    The discipline structure of C3 churches is strict, however. Audits must be completed, character and integrity of leaders is assessed through mentoring structures. Training and development is strong. Recommendations from outside sources such as NCS are seriously employed.

    I find your claims at 1.22 am extraordinary and unconnected to reality.

    ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

    s&p, wasn’t it Jesus who offered us ‘life and that more abundantly’ – that is, a super-overflow of abundance? Check the Greek on this word, it really is interesting. ‘Forget not all his benefits…who satisfies your mouth with good things’.

  66. I do say C3 preaches another Jesus, but that does not mean that the real one doesn’t stand up occasionally and does what he wants.

    C3 does seem to be caught in a religious cycle. Just before it ends, someone preaches from a true revelation and the real Jesus stands up and does something. And then the cycle starts up again.

  67. FL, where is that script “Forgot not all his…” is that from the Message Bible? just wondering

  68. Must I conclude that this in not the Facelift that’s been with Signposts02 from the very beginning?

    Does this FaceLift now on Signposts02, not read the transcripts from Phil’s messages from Signposts1?

    Does this FaceLift now on Signposts02, not read about the dodgy speakers Phil allows speak over his congregations and visiting churches?

    If this is still the same Facelift then surely he must be a worshipper of Phil Pringle. Phil Pringle is by definition, worshiped! Look at his twitter account, his blog comments, his facebook fan site.

    Here is the definition of worhip:

    wor·ship

    1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
    2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
    3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
    4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
    5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her).
    –verb (used with object)
    6. to render religious reverence and homage to.
    7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
    –verb (used without object)
    8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
    9. to attend services of divine worship.
    10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

    Facelift: “Why don’t you leave this place if you think it’s a cult?”

    I’ve answered this question before Facelift a number of time. And it’s always been you that’s asked. Look up my answer on Signposts02 if you really care. You are choosing to block your ears when I actually answer your questions. I can see why Lance kicked you off his site.

    How about I ask you a similar question?

    “Why don’t you just leave Signposts02 and Groupsects alone?”

  69. Its from Psalm 103, “satifies your mouth with good things.” But some of the things that Specks said the CCC people were asking for were not good things, they were the equivalent of junk food in this materialist society.

    I dont know how one could justify this as a church. Treating Jesus like Santa is surely the lowest level of religion there is. Charging for it is one level lower than that.

    I’d like to start a new article about this, to go into the “life and that more abundantly” scripture and others. Will put something up tonight.

  70. Coming back on topic here, someone very high up in Hillsong leadership informed that Phil Pringle was doing ministry work under Frank Houston before 1980.

    The high-profile leader of Hillsong commented that Phil Pringle came over to start his own ministry separate from the Houston’s. The leader labelled Phil Pingle’s ministry as ‘slip-stream’ ministry.

    They indicated Phil Pringle’s motives were to get something out of the revival in the city.

    It would be sad if that would have been Phil Pringle’s motive. It might have been a genuine move for him over to Australia so that he could be apart of the revival so he could help out or play a part in it.

    He probably would have been excited to start up a ministry in the revival city with good motive. Him being a slip-stream ministry though- not sure about that. It was interesting to note though that was what the young leadership of Hillsong saw CCC to be.

  71. FL said: “However, I gave you first hand information, in our email conversations, that the leadership were considering a change as long ago as the middle of last year, long before Phil was there. The situation in Europe has been under revision for some time. You failed to mention this, even though I had made you aware of it.”

    Did you? I’ll have to take a look at your messages again then, to confirm what you have stated here.

    The European leadership is a separate issue though connected with Freedom Church’s decision to leave the C3i movement. While the PP meeting was, in the grand scheme of things, a one-off … the effect it had on very many people was almost decisive.

    First-Hand/Second-Hand information.
    You claim that my information … which comes from church members in Freedom Church … is second hand.

    Meanwhile, your information … which comes from C3 leadership … is first hand?

    Umm. Quite baffled by that one.

    Which claims did you find extraordinary and unconnected to reality? Everything I said in that post?

    One thing I stated: “The checks and balances clearly aren’t there. They have created a clergy and laity. What they really need to do is abolish the laity. Every member ministry would be much better.

    Instead of a handful of leaders , everyone would be a priest. Right now, you get a glorified pyramid scheme.”

    Every church I have been involved with has suffered from this to a greater or lesser extent.

    ============================================

    FL, you said “However, I gave you first hand information, in our email conversations, that the leadership were considering a change as long ago as the middle of last year, long before Phil was there. The situation in Europe has been under revision for some time. You failed to mention this, even though I had made you aware of it.”

    Have you got that from the leadership in Bath?

    I don’t think anyone who posts on here hates C3 … we do want it to be much better. We want the Holy Spirit to so lead it that bad teaching is burned up and people find real freedom from sin. Real freedom from materialism. Real freedom from the rat race that we find ourselves in.

    While it is true that one event does not define a man, it is also true that most people who went to the event in question were less than thrilled. In fact, individual events can set one down a specific path and help to shape the future of a ministry.

    That one event was undoubtedly a setback for C3i. It was not an event that caused the Bath fellowship to completely change direction, but it was a decisive moment. The fellowship were deeply upset and the leadership’s mind was effectively made up for it.

    People had been asking questions for years. However I was not made aware of this until after the decision had been made … so I was pleasantly surprised. I hope it will have a positive effect on all involved.

    “Was it my fault? What went wrong and how do I improve or rectify the situation? How do I make better decisions in the future? How do I ensure that friendships are maintained? How do I ensure that bitterness or bad feeling do not stay?”

    Checks and Balances in Church governance. A valid question for every church.

    Narrow points of disagreement on doctrine … we can make too much of. I am not saying PP doesn’t preach a Gospel. I am only saying that he made a mistake in changing the specific event at the last minute.

    It could be that, in another context, the message would have been fine. However, as I have already stated, it was a straw that broke the camels back.

    I will say one thing about PP and BH. At least they aren’t living anywhere near as extravagant a lifestyle as Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland.

    I sincerely hope and believe that BH and PP do not wish to emulate such folks.

    Shalom

  72. I gave you all the information you needed in emails, Bull. First hand is first hand. I guess you forgot! 😉

    The idea of a clergy/laity system is Catholic, not Pentecostal, although there may have been Pentecostal works which came out of the clergy/laity system and continued the tradition. It is, I agree, inconsistent with scripture.

    However, we seem to continually come back to the idea of a no leadership-based church structure. I wonder why God doesn’t agree? The pyramid scheme was introduced by s&p, and you have backed it. That is not what I see. The pastor is no more important than anyone, as a saint. By call and vocation, he is the greater servant, if anything, with greater responsibility, and a greater potential for criticism and character assessment.

    It’s not that a pastor is more important in the scheme of things than a saint, rather that he functions in a particular way, and it involves both decision making and leadership, particularly in equipping the saints for the work of the ministry. So ‘every member a minister’ is very much taught and applied, but, within the context of that teaching there are those who train saints for the ministry, both to other saints, and to the unchurched.

    The pastor, or overseer is also accountable before God for the souls of those he has been given charge of. He is not to Lord it over the flock, but to be an example. Peter says pastors and elders are to ‘shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers’.

    Now I don’t know what you think shepherds do, or overseers do, but that speaks to me of leadership and servanthood, guardianship and decision making, protecting and correcting, It even involves shearing, leading sheep to still waters and verdant pastures.

    If I’m not being scriptural please tell me. Show me where this is wrong.

    ‘Shepherd’ – poimaino’ – ‘to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep, to rule, to govern’ of rulers, to furnish pasture for food, to nourish, to cherish or serve the body, to supply the requisites for the soul’s needs’.

    ‘Oversee’ – ‘episkopeo’ – ‘to look upon, to inspect, oversee, look after, care for, of the care of the church which rested upon elders, to look carefully, beware’.

    At 1.22 you claimed a top-down ministry structure, and a dictatorship overseen by Phil. I said C3 churches are run autonomously, not dictated to doctrinally. There is accountability, but in the context of ethics, mentoring and moral living. There is pastoral oversight, but it is Biblical.

    Your model of a democratically run church is not scriptural. Democracy is workable in some situations, but not in an apostolic setting. The New Testament is run on an Apostolic model.

    God did not pattern the church after a democracy. He is sovereign. We do not elect God. He is God. He is King. He is Lord. He has decreed the oversight structure of church life. It is Apostolic.

    The only people elected by saints are those who wait on tables, called deacons, which is both a noble call and an efficient means of running the practical systems of the church, freeing up the apostolic ministry for prayer and the study of the Word, so the Church is well fed spiritually. However, God still lays down the standard for becoming a deacon – full of faith, filled with the Spirit, and upright in the community. But deacons do not elect Apostles, or Pastors. Jesus calls them. he places them.

    I will agree on one thing. The Church has moved a long way from the Biblical pattern for Church oversight. However, if we are return to the true leadership structure of the church we have to end the notion of democratic elections, voting systems and sheep having power over shepherds.
    •••••••••••••••••••

    s&p, let me reassure you. I respect Phil, and I like him as a leader, but I do not worship him. I forgive you for suggesting I do.

    I worship God, and him only. That should be an end of that matter.

  73. “I don’t think anyone who posts on here hates C3 … we do want it to be much better.”
    Amen Bull!

    BTW. I’m not sure what a slipstream ministry is either. It was said in a rather condescending way. I guessed it was like the analogy of the children of Israel receiving a blessing and the gentiles receiving the crumbs. The revival being a type of Israel.

    Facelift: “At 1.22 you claimed a top-down ministry structure, and a dictatorship overseen by Phil.”

    Hmm… Talked to an interesting person last year who didn’t want Munsey to speak at C3’s Presence conference. They e-mailed C3 staff and leadership the troubling youtube videos as proof of Munsey’s corruption. This person was a student at C3 college who did not want to serve at the conference because Munsey was speaking.

    The student was informed by C3 leadership that if Phil was friends with Munsey, no one in leadership was going to change Phil’s mind on the matter. The poor person was forced to serve at the conference against their will – and they explained why. They actually could not pull out of serving at the conference – they tried everything with the leadership.

    He couldn’t get out of it. They vented quite a bit about it. I’m guessing they were from the SOM side because they were concerned about their future ministry being associated with Munsey at C3’s Presence conference.

    This person was forced against their will to serve at a conference. C3 forced them to go against their conscience. I’ve met a few people at C3 who had too much to lose in being honest.

    I’m hearing people’s pains and stories at C3 and those who are Ex-C3. I hear Phil Pringle with others like Mark Kelsey, Andrew Kubala indoctrinate their followers into bad error. Church numbers are failing. Drastic changes are happening in the colleges and church programs due to church financial issues. Church programs are being forced to change.

    Local ministries, ministers and people in their own congregations have been feeling for the last year that C3 was hit badly by the GFC and are paddling to stay above by forcing people to give. This actually explains why the tithe is being so heavily preached at the moment, the pastors whipping people to FEAR the world, not believe what blogs and people outside of church are saying. The leadership have openly said to the congregation to only listen what they say is right because they know the scripture – the world doesn’t.

    I have heard them say this! Phil Pringle said this when Kong Hee spoke. Mark Kelsey said very similar things this Sunday.

    You ask me Facelift what I am doing at C3. I’m in LOVE with the body of Christ and get to minister to those who fall through the cracks or disillusioned by what is said at the front. You want to know why I’m so angry with Phil? I see the results of his preaching. He doesn’t. He is destroying his church. I find it is a sin for me to leave because people and friends are being hurt by there doctrines and their teachings of contradiction more than anything else.

    And some one even today used the “cult” word to describe the C3OF church they used to love. Actually. Two people I’ve met in leadership have also used that word to describe their own church. I refuse to use that word in front of people or leadership at C3 – they say it for themselves. I let them vent.

    If you still don’t believe me Facelift, then I actually feel sorry for you. Your choosing to believe what you want to believe about Phil Pringle. If Phil Pringle repents and starts again the way that Jim Bakker did, I will feel happy enough to reveal my online identity to C3 leadership, move on and wish them the best.

  74. FL, study 1 and 2 Timothy again.

    When David Pawson was a Pastor in His last church, he taught his way through Timothy and Titus to prepare the members for how to choose elders from among themselves.

    It turned out that they chose the same ones he would have chosen but he made them do the choosing.

    That is the biblical method. It is not democratic.

    The democratic approach is to say you have a number of ‘seats’ that need to be filled and you then have a number of candidates who are nominated/selected. Then you have a divisive election which polarises the ‘electorate’ into ‘left’ and ‘right’.

    You have winners and losers.

    That is not the method currently used anywhere in the body of Christ.

    What currently happens in some places is that the current elders make a recommendation to the church body and the body affirms their selection.

    This is certainly not democratic!

    A better solution (and more biblical) is for the leaders to say … “we need more Elders” and the Body to say, we have identified n-number of individuals whom we recognise as being given the necessary qualities of character and gifting for this role.

    That is not democracy … that is the Spirit operating in the body. Elders/Deacons and the congregation working together through the power of the spirit. No real elections. No division. No politics. Just an affirmation from the body at large.

    FL, do you accept that this is a biblical approach? … particularly given that Paul didn’t instruct Timothy to put good elders in place in Ephesus, but to remove the Bad Elders so that the Body could self-select the Good men from among them.

    The point is … however Elders/Deacons are recognised as being what they are, the question is one of Character.

    If a person is appointed, are they appointed on the basis of how charismatic they are on stage? Are they they appointed on the basis of how cool they are with the kids? Are they appointed on the basis of how trusted they are theologically? Are they trusted on their Bible Knowledge? Are they appointed on the basis of them not rocking the boat?

    I could go on … but the important thing is that they come out from among the fellowship where they are known best … warts’n’all.

    This isn’t always possible, and in fact, when an organisation spans multiple churches in a number of cities and towns, the Pastor/Minister can be ‘parachuted’ in. Important where something has happened and an external person is required for healing a bad situation, etc.

    But where this happens, mature believers in the congregation need to step up to the plate as well.

    I don’t say all this to suggest that Leaders aren’t to be trusted. I say it because we need to gather round and protect leaders. We need to support them as they support us … not put them on a pedestal.

    Look at Ted Haggard in the US. Amazing story. Starts a church in his Garage and rises to become the top evangelical in the US with 30 million evangelicals in the nationwide organisation he was president of.

    He was seen as too big and too important to critisise. Then scandal broke and it all came crashing down. He became too remote. Hear my heart in this.

    No one is saying that BH and PP are 100% bad teaching and dodgy theology. What we say is that some of the teaching is very bad and can cause problems for some. We also say that they need to be open to the legitimate criticism that comes their way. No one is seeming getting through to them though.

    Maybe we have been to harsh … but we want to help those dealing with the fallout of the bad parts of the teaching. Help them heal up and becoming functioning parts of the body again.

    Regular meeting with other believers is a good thing. Being in the same room with others is of vital importance to our own growth as believers and may be crucial to others.

    Maybe I have mellowed. Maybe I am in love with Jesus more. The point is … we love.

    We sharpen one another.

    We are the body.

    Shalom

  75. s&p, being in a church where you dislike your pastor so much is counterproductive to your life. If you can’t see that then I feel for you.

    If you think you’re in that church to sort out what you perceive as problems, then I ask where you are truly being pastored. Who is accountable on earth for your soul? Please don’t say ‘I need no one because Jesus is my Pastor’. It is true that he is our Shepherd, and the Bishop of our souls, but it is not a complete Biblical truth to say we need no other shepherd under Christ. It was the Father’s will to give us Apostolic oversight, including pastoral care and leadership. That is Biblical truth. Disciples are disciplined followers of Christ, who obey his will, not their own. he gave gifts, the Apostolic oversight. That is clear and undeniable.

    Jesus is called the Chief Shepherd, which tells us there are under shepherds. You reject the pastor of the church you attend, and that means you cannot possibly be in the right place for your spiritual well being. Neither can you pastor yourself over these people you reject. I say that in love.
    •••••••••••••••••••••••••

    Bull, Timothy was told to choose faithful men whom he could train for ministry. He was the Apostle to that city church. He was the oversight. He was sent by Paul to choose out the leadership, the elders, the people he would hand the church over to. The sheep did not elect them, or have some meeting to select the oversight. Timothy was the oversight, sent in to sort out the church.

    You asked me to read Timothy again a few weeks ago, so I did, and it strengthened what I say. There is no where it says, as you claim, that he was sent there to reject the existing eldership, but no to be intimidated by people who were older, or considered themselves more experienced in life skills. That is taking authority over the situation, not allowing a vote. He wasn’t voted in by the sheep, he was sent by the Apostle Paul to oversee a church Paul had pioneered.

    That church was run under Apostolic guidelines. I love Dave Pawson, but he is not God. He says some great stuff, but also some things I disagree with, or rather, in the case you illustrate, I disagree with his summation of the situation, if that is what he says.

    If the people came to the same conclusion as he did as t who should take up eldership positions, it showed he had trained them well to hear from God, but it did not come as a surprise to him, Why? Because God gave him the task of correctly seeing who should fulfil the vocational roles in the church.

    You notice he carefully mentioned this truth, even though you or even he may not acknowledge that it was from the Holy Spirit, and part of the pastoral care gifting to see who is equipped for the task.

    Over.

    See.

    Apart from this, he released the people to be able to select others. That is his prerogative, and would work in a well organised, Biblically taught group setting, but it is also classic pastoral oversight. They did not do it without his permission or confirmation.

    Congregations, however, are not always that wise, or able to hear from the Holy Spirit. I’ve witnessed too many train wrecks, burned out pastors, crushed congregations, and split churches, to consider this form of choice of government to be wise. Overseers should ideally be chosen out or sent by those who are already in senior ministry. The Holy Spirit should choose them out before the apostles or Prophets, ideally.

  76. From Junkerjorge ex-Word of Faith pastor……..

    “Do You Know What Your Pastor Believes?”

    This was written by a friend in Nebraska that left the Word of Faith Cult:

    “This may appear to be an odd question, but it shouldn’t be. I dare say in most churches no one ever questions the pastor, because he is the pastor. Some may say he must know what he’s doing, he must know his bible, who am I to question him; and other such questions. But, do you know what your pastor believes. Have you ever asked your pastor where he stands on such issues as salvation, justification, inerrancy of Scripture, baptism, spiritual gifts, false teachers? You may be surprised or even horrified at what you find out. James 3:1 (NASV) tell us “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. The word translated “judgment” usually expresses a negative verdict in the New Testament and here refers to a future judgment. This is not meant to discourage true teachers, but to warn the prospective teacher of the role’s seriousness. In most churches, pastor’s are sloppy in how they handle the Word of God. This is why we have such a problem in the church. When you have a biblically illiterate pastor, that will translate into having a congregation of biblical illiterates; it’s as simple as that.

    Who’s responsibility is it to find out what my pastor believes? It is MINE! I was in a church not too long ago and just before I left found out something very disturbing to me. About six months or so prior we were talking about the end times in our Wednesday night bible study. The discussion centered around false Christ’s and false teachers. I had mentioned to the pastor the false teachings of Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and others and he agreed that their teachings were “way out there” and didn’t believe them. Come to find out a few months later I was in his office to get something for him and what do I see, a collection of Kenneth Copeland material. I was speechless and knew then and there I needed to leave that church. After all, how could I sit under a pastor who espoused the teachings of a heretic. I know that sounds strong but Kenneth Copeland is a man who has made such statements as, “Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross” and that God was the biggest failure of all time. As well as “You don’t have a god in you, you are one” made back in 1987. This man has also made numerous false prophecies. How could I in good conscience as a Christian sit under someone who has a collection of these teachings. The truth is I can’t nor should I. But it took me almost 3 years to find this out to my own shame.
    This is precisely why before I started going to another church I asked the pastor where he stood on all of these issues and if I didn’t get the biblical answer I was looking for, I moved on. You may ask, was he teaching any false doctrine? The answer was no, but if he has it in his library then he must believe some of it and that was enough for me to leave. People will follow leadership and if the leadership is inclined to believe biblical error the church will follow along. And even after I shared audio and video evidence he would not admit to me he had a collection of Copeland material, truly sad. My decision was easy, obey God’s Word first and leave the consequences to him. My meeting with him was only to let him know I was leaving to pursue God’s calling on my life somewhere else. No need for further explanation.

    Some out there may think this is harsh, but it is our obligation as Christians to follow God first. No matter how nice someone may be we should not or dare not compromise the Word of God for no one! We must do what Jude 3,4 (NASV) tells us, “Beloved, while I was making every effort to write to you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.

    The writer of Jude was compelled to write to a call to battle for the truth. To wage war against error in all forms and to fight strenuously for the truth, like a soldier who has been entrusted with a sacred task of guarding a holy treasure. We have to be willing to confront error because God’s people may be lead astray and those in the pulpit need to know that those listening will be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 (NASV) who were “examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.”

    Miguel

  77. No, Specks, this is not a church – we don’t tithe or give cheerfully :), however we do speak in many different “tongues” :), we don’t turn to the person next to us and say something heartfelt and sincere, we can’t hi5 each other, we don’t sing (& Youtube clips don’t count)!……. it is a blog, very interesting, thought provoking, at times annoying, a great place to vent, and (hopefully) a place to have an opportunuty to be very honest and accepting of each others views.

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