Where Does the Church Go From Here?

On Teddy’s behalf, here is the following:

It looks like a bunch of separate examples have been edited into the one video. Todd Bentley, kicking people for God – or claiming to.

Thanks, Teddy.


59 thoughts on “Where Does the Church Go From Here?

  1. Testimony of a women who attended the “revival” at Lakeland, Florida

    “Coming out of Deception

    I am coming away from revival with something I didn’t expect. Like many honest, God-fearing believers who love Him, I came expecting to find and come away with “more” of Him. What I have come away with is the realization that perhaps much of what I have built my Christian walk on is deception. This kind of deception cannot solely be laid at the feet of the Todd Bentleys, or even the Bob Jones of the world. It is much too insidious to be attributed to mere mortals. I see myself in each one of these individuals. They are me! I believe these are all men and women who love God and have honestly desired to follow after Him. But somehow, somewhere along the way, we began to listen to another gospel and follow another Jesus. I don’t believe for a moment that my journey out of deception is complete, but praise God, it’s a start.

    I have spent a better part of the last 30 years in Charismatic/Pentecostal churches looking for “more” – more power, more anointing, more glory, more revelation, prosperity, divine health, and everything else I believed was mine in Christ. Those of us from the “more Lord” camp have come to the foot of the cross looking to get all that we can from Christ in order to live a life that is “more than abundant.” We have earnestly believed that with this abundant life, we would be able to expand the Kingdom of God and reach the world for Christ with our “kingdom power and kingdom wealth”. Therein lies the delusion! Is not this the same theology Satan tempted Jesus with in the wilderness?

    Luke 4: 5-6 “And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, ‘All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will give it. If thou wilt worship me, all thine shall be thine.”)

    Sounds eerily familiar, doesn’t it?

    I have said, as well as the many others who are attending revival, we are hungry for God. But is that really what we are hungry for? Are we hungry for a life that is holy, that denies the desires of our flesh, to glory in our weakness rather than in our visions and revelations of Christ (as Paul says in II Corinthians 12:1-5)? Or is it something else we’ve been hungry for? I can tell you, after 30 years of all the preaching, teaching, conferences, healing schools, prophetic schools, etc., we have been after more than just God. We’ve been after His power. We are after His glory….which He will not share. (”I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another….Isaiah 42:8.) It our seeking of the power and glory of God that leads to deception; it is to pursue another Jesus and preach another gospel!

    We say that we are hungry for God, but if we are honest with ourselves, we are really looking to benefit from His power. The power of God has been something to be pursued with all of our heart, time and resources. Let’s be honest; spiritual power is tantalizing. “God’s power” represents, whether we realize it or not, a quick fix to put in order those areas of our life that we will not through repentance, self-control, and the taking up our own cross to follow Him. Oh, if we only desired to have Christ’s character operating in our lives as much we desire the operation of spiritual gifts and annointings!

    To truly be a follower of Christ we must not only come to the foot of the cross, but we must be willing to get on the cross. How many of us would really follow Christ if there were no healings to be had, no outpourings to revel in? Would we rush to get to Florida to embracing lack, to know hunger, to suffer need, to be stoned, or beaten? How many of our present day “apostles” truly bear the marks of the gospel upon their bodies as did the Apostle Paul? (And I don’t mean tattoos either!)

    Let’s face it, we’ve been running to Lakeland in hopes of getting something more…. something more for ourselves, something more for our churches, and something more for the world. We have been preoccupied with the thinking that God has somehow withheld something we must still pursue. It was exactly this kind of thinking that lead Eve into taking that first bite.

    Thanks to Phil, and thanks you to all those of you out there who have put so much effort into many of your blogs and websites on the subject of the danger associated with this revival in Lakeland. Continue to speak the truth. Continue to walk in love towards those you know to be deceived. Without the love, the message cannot be heard.

    I covet your prayers. Please remember also to pray for those coming out of this deception. Safe places of worship and fellowship will be key if we would ever truly follow after Christ. “

  2. The encouraging thing that I see in the comment above is that the woman may be putting 30 years in Pente churches behind her, but she is not losing Christ. In her rejection of a self confessed seeking for power and anointing, she is seeking more of Him, and to rediscover Him afresh.

    It seems to me that for many of the people I know who are leaving or putting Pente churches behind them (those Pente churches with a focus on prosperity doctrine and seeking the latest ‘revival” in any case), are not questioning their faith in Christ, just some of the doctrines and practices of that faith.

    Even though I personally regard the prosperity doctrine that teaches blessing is dependent upon our giving to our church as a harmful lie, its a credit to these churches in another way that those leaving are not leaving the One whom they first found there. They are rather seeking a truer and/or deeper walk with Him. Somewhere along the way, they did discover a personal relationship with Jesus in these places, so there must also be something going right, as well as other things going wrong.

  3. Wow! She’s opened her eyes to see the witch craft that is present in the church. That’s awesome. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, look up soul power. It’s evil when people use it against you. Be aware of it.

  4. ‘To truly be a follower of Christ we must not only come to the foot of the cross, but we must be willing to get on the cross.’

    Well, not so. Jesus was on the cross. we take up our cross. We don’t have to go onto the cross, but accept Jesus’ death on the cross. He took our place on the cross.

    You see, we have already been there in him. He was on that cross in our stead. We accept this by faith, and were already with him in his death.

    Our cross is the cross of submission and discipleship, not Christ’s cross which fulfilled the law of sin and death. Jesus nailed the law to that tree so that we could be free from the law of sin and death, and be alive to the law of the Spirit of life in him, through faith.

    Then there is the next step, which is not subsequent but simultaneous, concurrent – the entry into his resurrection. The cross ends the old, the resurrection brings in the new. Old things pass away, ad all things are made new. We become the new creature in Christ.

    Without death there is no resurrection, but without resurrection death is pointless.

    This is where cross-only teachers fall short. There was a point to the cross. It led to the resurrection. The cross ends the old, but the resurrection brings in the new.

    Paul said he had given away all things, counting them worthless, to win Christ, to be found in Christ, to know Christ, the power of his resurrection, the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to his death.

    We enter his death through faith in him and his death, and we enter life through faith in his resurrection.

    So it is not Christ’s cross that we have to get on to. It is our own cross we take up daily. The cross of surrender to death to our own desires and purposes, to put off the old man, and take on Christ – the new man, to take on God’s will for our lives, to accept the appointment to serve him and the people he wants to be added to the Church.

    This can only be attained to through the resurrection life.

    When we walk in love with God and with the people he sends us to, then the power will be manifested, that is, the manifestations and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

    That is why love is called the more excellent way in 1 Corinthians 12. Love is the motive and motivation behind the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They don’t glorify us, but they do glorify God.

    We are not called to receive the glory, but we are called to manifest his glory.

    We are called ‘earthen vessels which are containers of this treasure’ – his glory – ‘so that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us’.

    So the cross is the exit point from our old life o sin, but the resurrection is the entry point into eternal life, and empowers us to serve God and his people.

  5. By the way, as you say, RP, this series of clips is edited to emphasise something which probably isn’t being promoted in the originals. This is poor reporting. It doesn’t accurately present the facts. To have any credibility it should include the rest of what took place so tat viewers can make their own assessment. This only gives highlights which emphasise the editor’s perspective. HMMM!

    Smith Wigglesworth is known to have punched a man with a stomach cancer in the belly, and throw a sick baby into the front row from te stage. The man went down and got up healed. The child was also miraculously healed. Only those ministering under the leadership of the Holy Spirit should attempt this. Hopefully Bentley tells people this.

    Jesus spat on mud and placed it on a man’s eyes. Working of miracles coupled with faith and word of knowledge or wisdom can cause those who minister under the anointing to do seemingly extreme things in order for people to be delivered or healed.

    I don;t know much about Bentley, but let’s give it some time before having a go at him. God uses people in different ways sometimes to achieve his aims.

    “Who are you to judge another man’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he should be held up: for God is able to make him stand” Romans 14:4

  6. Don’t give us three minute clips from a single sermon!

    That’s the whole point of what I said earlier. You can’t determine what a man is saying from selected portions of their message. He claimed, “God said!” So who is this God? Is he saying Jesus told him something by the Spirit? Does God use angels? Do you know the names, purpose and titles of all angels?

    Further, what is the fruit of his ministry. We’ll ‘know them by their fruit’. Are people being healed and coming to Christ as a result of this ministry?

    Paul didn’t say that we were to deny the existence, ministry or effectiveness of angels, but to be wary of those who teach the worship of angels and wrong doctrine.

  7. For some reason you’re losing credibility, Facelift. If you think Todd Bentley can’t already be judged, check out angel “Emma”. It’s all documented. but somehow I don’t think you’re interested.

  8. I’m not really interested in Todd Bentley at this stage. If he is of God it will be plain. People are apparently being healed of major problems, and the dead have been raised. I am wary when critics take snippets. That is credibility in action.

  9. Thus says the Lord:

    Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.

    But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance.

    Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in Heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?” And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.”

    Now, as any good Christian should do, (like the Bereans in Acts 17:11), do not just accept this Prophetic Word without verifying its truth by testing it against the revealed will of God in the Scriptures. For your convenience I’ve listed Scripture references below for you to check to assure that this Prophetic Word is truly from the Lord and not a counterfeit spirit.

    Matthew 7:13-14 / John 10:1-5 / 1 Timothy 4:1 / 2 Thessalonians 2:11

    2 Timothy 4:3-4 / Matthew 24:24-25 / Matthew 7:21-23

  10. Yes of course, all these scriptures are relevant to everyone, but are used even by JW’s and SDA’s to ‘prove’ you and I are wrong. That is not the point. Quoting these scriptures isn’t evidence that anyone is doing the wrong thing. The point is whether God has ordained this man to do what he is doing at this time.

    The entry into eternal life and ultimately the new heaven and new earth is through the veil – the blood and flesh of Jesus. It is by grace through faith. Jesus wasn’t talking about the born again believer, who is already judged, and made worthy by the blood of Jesus – made to be the righteousness of God in him, through faith in him.

    He says only those who ‘do his will, will enter the kingdom of heaven. It has to be seen whether these ministers are doing his will. The test is their fruit.

    So what makes you a Berean expert in who is worthy and who is not? You claim to be like the Bereans, and that suddenly authenticates your ministry of discernment? Yes, and again the JW’s and SDA’s claim this also.

    Who are you to judge another man’s servant. Perhaps this man is Christ’s servant doing his will in a certain way under certain instructions.

    How do you judge him? Through YouTube clips! Dear Lord.

    I don’t accept anything this man does. Nor do I have to. I have said I’m not interested in him at this stage. He isn’t ministering to me or anyone I know. I don’t have to follow after every minister who ministers. I’d rather be about my Father’s business. I’d rather be doing his will so I don;t fall into the same trap some will.

    What a waste of time – putting together edited YouTube clips against people you don’t like. And these folk think they have a ministry. Beware! Next you’ll be caught up with some kind of chase the wolf ministry, and be completely distracted from Gods real purpose in your life. Many have gone down this path, and will be judged also for every idle word and for every act.

    “But, Lord, Lord, I chased what I thought were false prophets around the block!” “I never knew you!”

    Quoting scriptures I’ve read and taken in doesn’t move me. Show me good or bad fruit!

  11. Whether Todd Bentley is doing things from God or not, mocking people for trying to exercise discernment actively works against discernment.

    Withouth discernment, leaders welcome false teachers in. Some of these false teachers have been around much longer than TB – long enough for the leaders to know better.

    Discernment is not exercised by many, Facelift. If the leaders refuse to do it, others will. Their heart is to remain true to God.

    Discernment is one of the qualities most lacking in the big Pente churches today.

  12. Extreme gullibility is not faith. You only have to do a background check on theor own websites to see where they’re coming from.The clip is not so much a cut and paste, it’s more an overview of things he actually says and does.

  13. I’ve just had a chance to read Facelift’s comment again. Ick!

    Facelift, you do realise what you are saying, I hope.

    You are making the case for the average believer to think themselves unworthy to use discernment.

    You also chose to throw scripture back into Teddy’s face. Are you the only one here qualified to bring up various scriptures?

    We may not always share the same understanding of scripture, but the fact is, the verses about false prophets and teachers are there in the NT. We’ve always had false teachers with us. The verses wouldn’t be there if they weren’t supposed to act as a warning to us. They are there for our instruction and edification.

    Just as you say someone ‘chasing’ false teachers may be wasting their time, so may others who think they are doing works for God be totally missing their boat. “Who are you” to say that someone who is clearly a committed Christian is wasting their time when they raise scriptural concerns about something prominent happening in the church today? Particularly when that person is an active church attender at a place which does not exercise much discernment at all?

    I thought J Lee Grady’s article on Todd Bentley was good – it was not jumping to ultimate conclusions, and was also raising concerns.

    From what I’ve seen so far, I would be concerned about this Florida Revival, and am aware that some churches here are wanting to ‘get some’, so it is relevant, but again, yes, it’s also it’s fruit that we need to see. Healings alone aren’t enough.

    I enjoyed what you said about Smith Wigglesworth – I didn’t know he did those things. That was an interesting point.

  14. An easy way to tell for sure if TB is NOT doing God’s work is to check if any of the people he’s claimed to hit or kick have ended up in hospital. After all, its a miracle if you kick someone in the face hard enough to damage them and they are unhurt.

    If no-one is hospitalised then either TB isn’t really hitting or kicking people that hard, or they are all being supernaturally protected from damage.

  15. I don’t think I was either addressing the average believer or the fact that we need to exercise discernment. I don’t think its right of you to argue that. You posted the clip! I was being critical of the way it was edited.

    I was, in fact, addressing the ‘professional’ discernment crew who spend all their waking hours attempting to stumble ordinary believers by ‘exposing’ their pet-hate ministries.

    In context with this thread, I was criticising the way YouTube ministers cut and sliced videos to single out parts of a message which ‘proved’ their point. It is thoroughly dishonest, and in fact, I ay that tat we have to exercise discernment to pick what they are doing.

    However I see little discernment here when you an reproduce such a blatantly biased, edited piece, and expect any rational commentary on it. I think it is an evil practice to cut and splice a presentation in such a negative fashion to present a completely different set of facts to the real. Anyone can splice out a word here and a word there to make a person say what the editor wants.

    That is not discernment, but manipulation. YouTube cross examination.

    Give us context, and allow us to be making our own assessment. Stop insulting our intelligence with this trivial attempt at deception.

    I actually said this earlier, so clearly I’m not against discernment. I’m against those who are so full of themselves that they think they have a ‘ministry of discernment’, which Biblically doesn’t exist, anymore than a specific ‘ministry of deliverance’, or intercession. We’re all called and anointed to discern, to minister deliverance and to intercede.

    You even discerned for yourself that it had been cut and spliced, yet you still reproduced the clip, and appear to be in agreement.

    I was in no way saying we shouldn’t exercise discernment, or that we shouldn’t be wary of wrong teaching, but why produce such a despicable piece to illustrate your point? Why not come up with some of the fruit of the ministry, good or bad, which, according to Jesus, is how you measure whether a ministry is of God or not.

    Test every spirit, whether it be of God, including the heavily spliced YouTube presentation.

    Teddy threw at me a whole list of scriptures which discuss false teachers and prophets, as if this proves that Todd Bentley must be one! This list is equally used by cults to ‘prove’ they are ‘right’. It means nothing really to just throw out these scriptures.

    Show just cause, not edited clips.

  16. Firstly, Facelift, as I stated at the top of the post (maybe not clearly enough) I posted this on Teddy’s behalf, as part of the administrative service here, since she isn’t comfortable with the interface we use to post things (I think).

    I’m not setting myself up as arbiter of what is ‘worthy’ to be on this site or not – what is posted up is a reflection of the diverse interests of those here, not necessarily a reflection of my own views. I may or may not agree with the point being made. (This is not a ‘church’ where I am a ‘leader’ exercising discernment – ironically.) I had hoped I made this clear before now, but maybe I didn’t.

    When I post something on my own behalf, it naturally reflects a topic that I have a particular interest in, however, so you will often see emerging church, church detox, things relating somehow to abuse, leadership and freedom in Christ, and questioning of some popular doctrines coming from my little corner of the world.

    Secondly, Teddy can speak for herself, but I don’t pick up that she would see herself as having a ‘ministry of discernment’. What I pick up is that she’s concerned about people who may be false teachers, and also false gospel. Teddy seems interested in reformed theology, but is still attending a Pente megachurch, where she no doubt has many friends and a community. That’s an interesting situation.

    Thirdly, let me state categorically that I do not regard myself as having a ‘ministry’ of discernment. But like all believers, I should exercise discernment to the best of my ability. I see things that cause me concern. I see no attempt to discern even about the most obviously concerning teachers in the movement around me at the moment. I have previously been in a church with a senior pastor who did exercise discernment, which I and others appreciated, even if we didn’t always agree. It was great that he acted in that capacity.

    As for this YouTube clip – apart from whether TB is a false teacher etc, it raises the interesting issue of whether we should dismiss things because they are ‘violently’ done for God… hence my comment on hospitalisation. Haven’t heard anyone has been hospitalised yet, so maybe its not as bad as it sounds. Your Smith Wigglesworth comment addressed that quite nicely.

    Plus, it has to be admitted that this clip is funny!

  17. Fine, but you put it together that I was dissing discernment for the average believer, which I wasn’t, obviously. Teddy unwrapped a ton of anti-false-prophets verses particularly for my attention, as if I hadn’t noticed them! Teddy also produced another clip from a discernment blog, which completely got it wrong, hence my comments.

    It’s the folk from the self-appointed ‘discernment’ ministries I’m having a go at, not you, or Teddy, unless she sees herself of that ilk.

    I believe they do more damage than the so-called wolves they attempt to expose. Time to expose them for what the really are!

    The clip may be funny to some people, but telling lies or misrepresenting a ministry isn’t really that amusing. It may cause someone to miss their healing or salvation if they are put off attending meetings by some dopey YouTube false exposé.

  18. Facelift, why do you assume the clip is misleading? Do you think the comments are his or someone else’s?

    I am seriously concerned for anyone that thinks this is an anointed ministry, and I have no problem before the Lord saying so. Any honest research into this reveals a great divide in the Charismatic community and I find that troubling.

  19. While I wonder if TB is as bad as he sounds in one sense (I doubt that he really is kicking or hitting people in a dangerous fashion), I agree with you Teddy that there are things to be concerned about. The emphasis on angels for one thing (not that I deny angels), and statements about increased offerings as proof of the Lord’s blessing upon the move.

    It may not take much hold in Australia, since there does appear to be more concern about this one than the beginnings of the Toronto blessing. Unless I missed something.

    I also believe that if God wishes to heal someone, or especially, save someone, He will not be prevented from doing so. There is more than one way to reach a person, and God has so much patience and love. If we miss the boat somewhere, I believe He will bring another boat at some time. Sometimes maybe His work in us is delayed when we take a while to catch on to something He wants us to come into, but I don’t believe His work is prevented. I know that He has given me lots of second chances.

    Many large conferences are prevented as if they will change your life and if you don’t go you’ll miss out. As if God is dependent upon that!

  20. Billy Graham’s large gatherings is still having a profound effect on the nation.

    God uses evangelists to bring change. Signs accompany their ministry as the Holy Spirit confirms the Word. Healings and deliverance. We shouldn’t wonder about wonders!

    It’s too easy to declare ‘false signs’ just because there are signs.

    If Bentley is saying there were unusual manifestations its because they were not normal. They were extraordinary, and worthy of comment. But not out of context with Biblical manifestations.

    Teddy, I don’t assume the clip was misleading. Nothing left to assume. It certainly is misleading. Why do you assume it wasn’t? Do you condone this form of deception?

  21. If anyone read that article I posted up on Todd Bentley’s teachings on spiritual things, it should raise warning bells that he wouldn’t be able to tell if it’s God talking to him or Satan. Sound’s harsh? Read his article.

    His theology on angels is incredibly disturbing. So disturbing in fact that he is sharing it with everyone across the globe and in his church. We discussed this article at home fellowship a few weeks ago. I gave my views with other people and realised how wayward his teachings are. In his article about angels you can also read about Emma.

    The only valid thing I’ve heard him say so far is(I’ll paraphrase), the church needs to be more spiritually aware. But on what? What the Holy Spirit is doing? Or focussing on what angels are doing?

    What these clips highlighted is that Todd Bentley was visited by an angel who is ‘Gods Angel’ while he was seeking something ‘new’. In fact he’s met a few. They give him powers to heal. As he is seeking the ‘new’, he gets it through angels. People are now seeking the ‘new’, or this so-called revival. But do we forget so quickly that angels are simply spirits? Any spirit can masquerade as an angel of light or of blessing, or even healing!

    Forgive me for being cynical, but I see no man holding him accountable to what he has said and what he is doing. He is dangerous until he is accountable and actually gets educated about the things he’s dealing with.

    I have to stress that I am not against the revival and healings. But if their is anything Satan would do to squash anything, to snuff out God’s glory, it would be to target this man of God and lead him astray with many others. I do not want to see this happen and unfortunately, that is exactly what I am seeing.

  22. Article said:
    “‘To truly be a follower of Christ we must not only come to the foot of the cross, but we must be willing to get on the cross.’”

    To be a follower of Jesus, we just need to believe in Him as Lord and believe in all He’s done and then have a relationship with Him. It’s in this loving relationship He will chastise us lovingly so that we may grow in wisdom and good counsel. We can’t ‘get on the cross’. We can’t crucify ourselves. I’d like to see anyone try to literally crucify themselves by themselves. It’s impossible and would look incredibly stupid.

    No. Christ crucified us when we crucified him. When we see him on that cross or even come to the foot of the cross, we are to be reminded that it was our sinful nature that crucified him and our sinful nature that was crucified with him. He did it. Now we can rejoice and acknowledge that was have his nature! A born again spirit in union with the Holy Spirit. We have the father heart of God and the mind of Christ. We have that same relationship and power that Jesu had with the Father.

    Facelift said:
    We are not called to receive the glory, but we are called to manifest his glory.

    Actually, we are born again to share His glory. We are born again of the Spirit of God. We walk in His Spirit, righteousness, glory, holiness and many other priveleges. Occasionally some of these aspects can manifest.

    Facelift said:
    He says only those who ‘do his will, will enter the kingdom of heaven. It has to be seen whether these ministers are doing his will. The test is their fruit.

    Uh… No. Those who have believe and have received His Son and are relationship to Him enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The test is not their fruit but our endurance to hold onto God in any circumstance that comes are way. As the old saying goes: Our foundation is the root not the fruit for salvation.

    Facelift said:
    Quoting scriptures I’ve read and taken in doesn’t move me. Show me good or bad fruit!

    Got a revelation today facelift: The only way to tell if the fruit is good fruit or bad fruit is to take off the skin to see if the actual fruit is eaten by worms, bruised or okay. We can’t judge a tree’s fruit from a distance. And in Eve’s case, not even from face value.
    To me, discernent looks for the ’cause’ or motivation behind an event or person.

    Facelift said:
    “Further, what is the fruit of his ministry. We’ll ‘know them by their fruit’. Are people being healed and coming to Christ as a result of this ministry?”

    Whatever you do, do not get confused between gifts of office and the fruits of the spirit.

    Facelift said:
    I’d rather be about my Father’s business.

    Which are? I’d like to know you a bit better FaceLift.

    S&P

  23. Sorry Facelift, I’m not sure where you’re coming from re that clip. When you ask if I “condone that sort of deception” do you mean re editing clips or Bentley’s ministry?

  24. Teddy, I mean editing clips to prove a point. It is a form of deception, however mild you might consider it, and is the consistent thrust of my argument on this thread. I think you went overboard with all the false prophet teachers. I have said I don’t know enough about this ministry to make a genuine assessment.

    You may turn out to be right about Bentley. I am saying the presentation of the ‘facts’ was clouded by cut and splice techniques which don’t help. My second point is that it would be better to produce a segment in its entirety so we can actually make a valued judgement by seeing whole context of what is being said.

    S&P I would also be disturbed about the emphasis on angels if you are correct.

    It was Jesus who said those who do the Father’s will would enter the kingdom, and that we would know ministries by their fruit. Of course accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour is doing the Father’s ill, but then, as you point out, we have to continue until the end, so again that is dependent on doing the Father’s will. We are not saved by works, but unto good works in Christ.

    Paul said we are earthen vessels which contain the treasure of God’s gory. Manifesting God’s glory s showing it forth. That is a partnership. We are partakers of the divine nature. I guess we agree but express it differently.

  25. I was impressed by Ps Strader’s tone in his response to critical questioning. I’m not sure that the questions re angels were really answered though.

  26. Sharp to Strader: ‘Drop the weak “gospel” of healing, signs, wonders, prosperity and miracles… and preach instead the consistent, clear message of sin, faith, repentance, and salvation/righteousness through Jesus Christ alone.’

    So now you start to see why we have to note the doctrine of the ‘discerners’ so that we can correctly discern their discerning.

    Yes e preach for salvation, but it also true that God moves in meetings through signs and wonders, through healings and deliverance. it is his prerogative, not ours, to decide how he is going to meet he needs of people who are drawn to meetings. He has said he will draw all men to himself, and he can do this any way he chooses.

    Who is Sharp to call healing, deliverance, signs, wonders, etc, a ‘weak’ gospel? I consider that to be false doctrine.

    The signs of the Messiah were, and still are, healing, deliverance and salvation. Read Christ’s reply to John the Baptist’s disciples when he was asked if he was the Messiah, or they were to wait for another, in Matthew 11:1-6.

    Who is discerning the discerners?

  27. Of course the gospel can be preached with a variety of emphasis, and in many different ways, just as there are many different examples in the NT.

    It’s still important to ask where people are coming from, and if there is a consistent emphasis on something other than Christ, any follower of Him should feel comfortable raising questions. If whatever it is, is of God, it will stand testing.

    It’s reasonable to ask who will test the discerners, but the ‘discerners’ do posit reasons for their position from scripture, so at least they are easy themselves to test. They are not afraid to let people know where they are coming from, even if they are wrong. People who raise issues tend to get knocked far more than those who are false but receive endorsement from established churches. So I would not be too concerned about who is discerning the discerners – they are transparent enough so that we can all do that.

    For example, when Sharp told Strader, ‘Drop the weak “gospel” of healing, signs, wonders, prosperity and miracles… and preach instead the consistent, clear message of sin, faith, repentance, and salvation/righteousness through Jesus Christ alone’, he betrayed his position regarding how things should be done, and can be questioned as to whether or not he believes signs and wonders themselves are still relevant. Not difficult to look into that (though I won’t right now).

    But that still doesn’t discount his valid questions about the angel emphasis that weren’t answered. We can see that Strader may not be right about everything, but he is making a valid attempt to discern nonetheless, basing it on his understanding of scripture. What we can’t yet discern as easily is whether the Florida Outpouring is based on an understanding of scripture, or primarily on one man’s personal revelation. If it is the latter, it definitely should be tested. The question is, are the AOG willing to do so at some point?

  28. Teddy, why are you so surprised? The gospel is the good news. Good news includes the fact that Jesus heals the sick and delivers the demonised. Do you consider that a weak gospel? Is a miracle weak?

    How do people who are sick or demonsed feel when tey are set free? Do they call that a weak gospel. When people come to the place where doctors can’t help, and the psychologists don’t have the answers for them, because their ‘gospel’ is of medicine and the soul sciences, which has some benefits, sometimes, but is limited to men’s present abilities and can’t fix all ills. Yert God ca, and nothing is impossible for him, so the good news is that he heals people and sets them free. How is that not a strong gospel?

    When crowds are drawn to meetings because their needs can be met, they are positioned to hear the full gospel, which includes the gospel of the cross and resurrection, by which they can be saved and enter eternal life.

    There is only one gospel, and al these things are included. Life for now and life forever.

    Or do you prefer for them to never be made well, or set free, and yet receive Jesus as Lord? “Shouldn’t this child of Abraham, whom Satan has bound these 18 years be set free on the Sabbath!”

    You’d free your cat if it was stranded on some precipice, but you’d leave the sick to die young.

    God made provision for healing, deliverance, miracles ad signs, as well as salvation, and the hope of eternal life, and called it all the good news.

  29. Rubbish! I totally trust a loving, healing, redeeming, restoring, justifying, miracle-working God.

    But the church today has been SO neglectful of preaching the FULL counsel of God that I believe there are many false conversions out there.

    “Signs and wonders must be servant to the Gospe, they are secondary to the Good News” – Ps Michael Youssef

  30. Solid doctrine and emphasis on God is what is essential in delivering the gospel message.
    Healing, signs and wonders mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING unless the person the person who God is using, proclaims to those who witnessed something miraculous or confounding that this is the Jesus Christ your Lord and Saviour that is doing these things.

    Instead we have a man ranting on angels bringing healing. The angel of prosperity, Emma. An angel called ‘healing revival’. It’s all nice. But those teachings should be sidelined while all the glory goes to God. To focus on spirits is to focus on wind. To focus on hype is to focus on wind. To focus on Jesus Christ as being our healing, redeemer, substitute, Lord, Saviour, shepherd, etc, is to keep this movement solid and to save going wayward.

    The voice needs to be on Christ; the same ‘old’, but alive healer, not the ‘new’ emphasis on returning to ‘Spiritual beings’.

  31. “Healing, signs and wonders mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING unless the person the person who God is using, proclaims to those who witnessed something miraculous or confounding that this is the Jesus Christ your Lord and Saviour that is doing these things.”

    Exactly.

  32. “But the church today has been SO neglectful of preaching the FULL counsel of God that I believe there are many false conversions out there.”

    That is my concern too. Not to mention the negative view of the body of Christ created when someone believes a false gospel and is then disillusioned without ever finding the truth.

  33. ‘Signs and wonders must be servant to the Gospel, they are secondary to the Good News’

    Well, no! Signs following the preaching of the gospel are evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit (Mark 16:20). Those signs include speaking in tongues, protection from harm, casting out demons and healing of the sick.

    The message of the gospel is the saving grace of God, and the evidence of the gospel is the signs following.

    I agree the full gospel has not been preached. In fact the part of the gospel which isn’t generally preached by many in the Church is on the signs which follow the preaching.

    And what is the preaching? That those who hear should repent because the kingdom of God is at hand. What is the evidence that the kingdom of God is in our midst. The power of the kingdom to bring about change is present.

    So here you unwittingly join the crew which denies the very power and presence of God to heal and deliver as being an essential part of the gospel.

    “You don’t believe in me, so then believe in the works that I do!” Jesus to the lawyers.

    “These works shall you do, and greater works than these shall you do, for I go to my Father”, Jesus to believers.

    The works – miracles and signs – of Jesus give evidence of the kingdom, and of God, and of his willingness to meet our needs now, and to bring salvation into our midst. You cannot separate the miracles of God from either our commission or the gospel.

    “My speech was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God”, Paul to the Corinthians.

    “He therefore that ministers to you te Spirit, and works miracles amongst you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness”, Paul to the Galatians.

    “For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance”, Paul to the Thessalonians.

    “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation; which at first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by the who heard him; God bearing witness, both with signs and wonders, and and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Paul to the Hebrews.

  34. Facelift, you know that no-one here is denying that signs and wonders happen, and can confirm preaching of the gospel. Why are you being so determinedly obtuse regarding this?

    It shouldn’t be necessary to state (again) that sometimes signs and wonders are not from God – the Bible itself says so, and you quite clearly are familiar with the Bible – and raising concerns about that is something we should do where we have them.

  35. Is the air rarefied up there where you reside Facelift? Is there any preacher/teacher you do admire? Obviously Michael Youssef has no street cred with you but then until you name some names, we have really no idea where you’re coming from.

  36. Fair enough, but it doesn’t hurt to keep a balanced perspective before potential readers.

  37. That was to RP.

    Teddy, I admire heaps of teachers, but if anyone makes a statement which doesn’t fit truth, like you, I say something about it.

    Signs and wonders are not separate from e gospel, nor are they inferior to the gospel. They are an important part of the gospel. That’s my point. You seem to support the notion that signs and wonders are peripheral. I think that’s a long taught error which has been to the detriment of the growth of the Church.

    You use Youssef’s very nice sounding quote to verify your position, and I disagree. Why does that place me in some snobbishly elevated position? I just made a comment, that’s all. Take it or leave it!

    Effectively Youssef, like Sharp, relegates signs and wonders to an inferior type of gospel. But it is a integral part of the gospel.

    Rarified air? Well we’re supposed to be seated in heavenly places in Christ, are we not?

  38. Whew!- just got your post Specks & Planks.

    To the Unscriptural, this would seem legit, eh?-Yep, I have to live with lots of fancy talk and metaphoric nonsense as I work with Film & Advertising Creatives-funny how far these guys have strayed from scriptural truth.

    Z.

  39. Ah, …here I am, poor Zeppelin, sick in bed,

    [and feeling a bit deflated; the Germans have all climbed out of their gondolas and are having a picnic on the grass…”Pass me de sauerkraut Hans-und Schnapps!”], and meanwhile, this issue has sprung up like a big Mushroomy fungus within a few days!-spectacular!

    I’m a film professional, and it really isn’t dishonest to cut a bunch of material together to make a point; Im sure here that the point, and its background facts became quickly apparent to all here, and was not done with dishonest intent my friends.

    As a ‘showbiz’ guy, Im always interested in the showbiz and ‘salesmanship’ that goes on in the Christian Faith; how a speaker will sensationalise an audience , get them laughing, entertained, fearful, or amazed at determined points-and they can stride about on stage and say ‘whatever they like!’-sell something,-and do it all in the name of Jesus!-and these guys get paid for it and reap the merchandising too!-hm, dangerously like a ‘Game-show’, one wonders- this sensationalism is what caught my particular attention in the clips.

    I love your points Teddy & the guys-and am interested in the practical application of all the above.

    Yep, I have to agree that we’ve been on’ Christian fairy-floss, Magic-shows Merry-go-rounds & fancy religious Smoke-and-mirrors’ for too long, and there seems precious few ministers of our faith teaching the ‘chumpy, meaty value’ to be had in following the Christ. [ooo-lets drop a name; Paul Scanlon!-yay!]

    Agree totally that the Holy Spirit comes with signs & wonders, bringing people to faith, but faith in WHAT? is the part that constantly bothers me, nags me in the lord….we seem brought up, like the world, on sensation; ‘bread-and-circuses’ if you like, and not wise, reverent, exuberant, practical works with the Lord’s Mind in this Creation; the ‘Ways of Heaven’-on Earth.

    The videoclip rather sensationally brought us to a fellow who clearly is teaching heresy; a sort of variation on Gal1:8…but there is no other Gospel than Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins;-so the signs are serving an evil goal, whether the miraculously-cured are injured or not, I wonder, Ravingpente!

    Im only a relatively-new Pentecostal Christian; only 8 years or so, and there does seem to be an over-emphasis on ‘Revivals’, ‘Power’ works, as Teddy has noted, and often much reliance upon dangerously weak Scripture-work!-
    [Ive just read Ch 16/17-Church beyond the Congregation-James Thwaites- relevant to this perhaps].

    Discernment:

    You seem quite right, Ravingpente that this is the point of the matter, and our people are simply not trained enough in its exercise. Discernment comes with training and experience, and is a mark of the mature Christian; hm, even granted independence of thought!

    I too have been through thousands of sermons, hundreds of programs, courses, missions, or whatever, and am concerned that our people are seemingly not trained to intelligently exercise and intensely network their wisdom in God;..I mean, …-all that scripture-training, and still coming up with harmful attitudes, conclusions, and even false doctrines, while even claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit!- fun and games my friends, and I for one am sick of it; time to get down to business.

    “Pride comes before offense”; brothers & sisters, Im always interested when we are offended, or almost offended in these sorts of dialogues-usually, its when something is hitting close to a nerve, and then it seems wise to me to pop the hood and take a look inside……and its really good to have friends so that we can take a look at ourselves through their eyes, and train ourselves towards perfect….. humility ; glad to meet you all, though we may not all reach consensus of thought & action.

    Loved your observation on Fruit Specks & planks; its not numbers of awestruck converts that matter to me , but doing good, in accordance with Gods known will.

    The ‘Heavenly Places of Rarified Air ‘ is a very interesting concept Teddy & Facelift; -It makes me wonder that armchair-Christian intellectualising can get bitter and dangerously impotent; I rather favour the marriage-phrase; “With my Body I thee worship”, as a wise way to interpret truth!

    [Oh,—-and me?, I simply mistrust Obese preachers!!…….Rrrrrrrumble…….Aaaaaaaaaaaaah!-that is the sound of one of them running up and sitting on me!–Splat!]

  40. Zeppelin – have you been burnt in the past listening to any obese preachers, by any chance? (This might have affected your judgement – 😉 )

  41. Aaaah-the Server seems to have posted this up 4x- Sorry everyone!

    -And Ravingpente—probably!-

    Z.

  42. Identify the ‘Obese Preacher’ spirit that is hindering your online communication. And let Jesus deal with it on the cross. Let him banish and cast it out into the worldwideweb.
    You shall be free. Amen!

    (Okay. That was just stupid. Need to get sleep!)

  43. The thing is, when the Holy Spirit comes in he comes in power, because he is God, and has power. He comes in love because he is God and is love. He comes with healing because he is God and is the Healer. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

    He comes with grace and introduces us to the saviour, Jesus – Jehoshuah – Jehovah Who Saves. Both the Hebrew and the Greek rendering of save, or salvation have more than the meaning of saved from sin, but also brought into well-being, wholeness, and, yes, prosperity.

    So it isn’t about what men say, or what they boast bout. It is about who God is.

    When God enters a person’s life he doesn’t leave behind every other attribute of who he is apart from salvation, or being the Saviour. He is who he is, all the time, never ending, never changing.

    This man’s doctrine of saved from sin only leaves us short of God’s nature and divinity.

    We are saved from sin by the blood of Jesus, and the cross of Calvary, but he is also the Healer, the Redeemer, the Propitiation, the Deliverer, our Peace.

    So what have men to do with who God is when he pours out his Spirit?

    Who are we to categorise the way he will bring revival, or an outpouring, or whatever you want to call the special visitations God seems to bring from time to time, surely to show his greatness, and to remind us that he is still God, is on the Throne of Kingly righteousness, holiness, mercy and grace, and can move in amazing ways despite our lack, and frailty, and weakness.

    We call them revivals, or outpourings because we don’t have the words to explain what God does wen he brings such amazing, and often seemingly unprecedented visitations, suddenly and surprisingly, and unquestionably strangely, as in the Azusa Street outpouring, which ultimately changed the world, but still causes such consternation today.

    Sadly the ungodly and ungainly are also attracted to such supernatural outpourings, and often the genuine people of the revival are unfairly criticised and over-scrutinised, so we miss the real point of what God is doing, which is to hasten the day of the coming of the Lord Jesus, by ushering in more souls, speeding up the process, getting us nearer the reality of what his Word says, bringing us closer to his purposes, perfecting his Bride, in spite of our slack attitude towards the gospel.

    He prods us on, just as in the early Church Jerusalem persecutions, when he finally got them out of the city, and into the world, where the gospel was spread, and a revival was had, despite their hardships.

    In fact his glory is more likely seen manifested through the weak, and base and foolish, rather than the wise, or noble or great.

    But the self-promoted wise noble and great all stake their claim for their calculated way of producing the gospel; another, more definable, melancholy, systematically estimable gospel, easily analysed, according to their own knowledge and understanding, of course, and comfortably normal, by their own standards.

    I don’t say this is revival, and have reservations, but I say let’s see. It has some qualities of revival, some aspects of an outpouring, but shows some marks of ungainly ministry, and immature doctrine, as Strader, the pastor of Lakeside, has openly admitted, but he is working his heart out to bring order and decency into this. Give him, and the evangelist, Bentley, who obviously is no scholar, a chance to produce the right kind of fruit.

    Quench not the Spirit.

  44. Do check out Jim Thwaites if you get the chance Bro; Ch 16 of the above book- I am generally unfamiliar with Christian revival history, and this really sets the history, effects & issues out very clearly..at least for me!

    I know God will work through all sorts of people, and believe he even brings good outcomes through bad people-I do feel however the above Preacher falls foul of the ‘Lying signs & wonders ‘, and ‘another gospel’ warnings, of this End-time.-Quite correctly, if the fruit of his followers is Christs indwelling and the development of Christian character & maturity, then all-good, but the angel-gospel is a very bad warning sign-witness; mormonism via Moroni.

    Otherwise, perfectly agree with all the above dear Facelift, whew, Im really sick…Goodnight everybody, off to sleep….

    ZZZ..

  45. I’m not against the revival itself where people are getting healed. I’m against the hype and false doctrines that are being circulated there. If these things are addressed, I believe that God will make himself more manifest and more abundant for those who seek him. I want people to be healed. I don’t want to see such a great move of God be derailed because of man’s hype and wally doctrine.

    What I find odd is that it’s all happening through Todd Bentley. Generally God does share himself around and lets other people operate in His Holy Spirit with these revival events.
    When God moved mightily in the old times before Frank Houston joined the AOG everyone was free to operate in the gifts. Random individuals prophesied over passing strangers, who then later came to know the Lord. People in the movement also healed others, others were also a given a word of knowledge or a specific revelation to inform people about. It was amazing. Wish I was there.

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