Danny Nalliah rebuked by Senior Pastor

A sharp rebuke from Mark Connor , who is not Danny Nalliah’s Pastor, but is a Senior Pastor in Victoria, highly respected by Pentecostals and evangelicals, brings into perspective the latest ‘prophecy’ from Danny, who publicly stated the Victorian fires were judgement from God for new abortion laws.

Connor writes:

Have you noticed that any time there is a tragedy or disaster in our world, some self-appointed prophet(s) starts to speak out and talk about the judgment of God? Someone suddenly remembers a vision or a dream they had. They start to casts stones and place all sorts of guilt on people.

[Danny Nahlia[sic] from ‘Catch the Fire’ Ministries is a classic example of this. Click here to read his public statement and here for a recent Sydney Morning Herald article where he is quoted. At times like this, Danny is an embarassment to the Christian church, as he does not speak on behalf of the majority of Christians and churches, let alone God]

I think we need to be very cautious in how we approach this. Who are we to say that these bush fires are the judgment of God? What about that person who died in a car accident last week, that person who died of sickness yesterday, or that couple who haven’t been able to have children? Are they too under the judgment of God because something bad has happened to them? Is any negative experience of human suffering an indication of the judgment of God? I think we are unwise to make such arrogant statements, as if we have God’s full perspective on life’s uncertainties.

In Jesus’ time, there were a number of tragedies that took place (see Luke 13:1-5). Pilate killed a some Galileans and mixed their blood with sacrifices (“human evil”) and then a tower (the Tower of Siloam) collapsed and killed eighteen people (“natural evil”). Jesus addressed these two current issues but he didn’t explain ‘why’ they had happened. What he did say, however, was insightful. He said, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them-do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

The truth is that we live in an era of grace, when God is withholding wrath so sinners can repent. Jesus himself said he had not come to condemn the world, but so that the world could be saved. People condemn themselves by their unbelief, but the time of God’s judgement and final wrath is yet to arrive. When it comes it will be terrible, and woe to those who remain in the earth, but for now, at least, God’s long-suffering is accorded towards us.

Sadly, Danny, and Catch the Fire Ministries, appear to make it very difficult to express disagreement on their blog by being seemingly selective about comments. I and others I’ve heard of, have had comments moderated. These were reasonable comments, not rude or aggressive hate-mail, nor could they be considered persecution. As an experiment I once added a positive comment under the same blog name, and it got through!

Declaring yourself to be  Prophet of God is a serious business. We live under the New Covenant, and no longer stone false prophets, as people were obliged to do under the Old Covenant, but we need to be certain that if our prophecies do not come to pass, we acknowledge the error, and be very careful about declaring ‘Thus says the Lord” without his full consent.

Catch the Fire Ministries are giving aid to victims of the fires, and this is commendable, but they need to understand how and when God releases judgement in this age of His grace and mercy.

Mark Connor is a sound voice with enough sense to point out the error, as he says:

Jesus makes it clear that when something bad happens it doesn’t mean that the person(s) affected by suffering are necessarily sinful or evil. Good and evil does not fall on people in some sort of vindictive manner. Jesus doesn’t say that these people are ‘under the judgment of God’ either. If he didn’t, why are we so quick to?


126 thoughts on “Danny Nalliah rebuked by Senior Pastor

  1. Well said! What Mr. Nahlia has said is all part of the same thinking that has pervaded so much of the modern church – good things happen to good people, bad things to bad people. If my business is going well it’s obviously a sign of how godly I am, but if you’re not dressed in the best clothes or you’re struggling financially you must be somewhat less spiritual; definitely not leadership material.

    It’s ironic that so many Christians live in fear of Muslims or Mormons when Jesus never warned us to be wary of other religions. What he and his apostles did warn us of repeatedly was to be on our guard against false teaching. That’s the stuff that has taken the saltiness out of his church.

  2. Nice post, FL.

    It is very good to see a Pentecostal pastor who is not afraid to name DN when his ‘prophecies’ are clearly false and his attitude unChristian. DN is absolutely an embarrassment.

    I would have been more likely to stay in my own Pente church had the leadership been willing to take an unambiguous stand on false teachers like DN – and some others.

    The Anabaptists response to the fires was inspiring. In their latest newsletter they raised all the difficult questions including – ‘Where is God in all this?’ and the matter of praying for the arsonists (loving your enemies and not seeking vengeance) as well as of course support and prayer for the victims. They linked to their newsletter from Sept 11, 2001 – it was amazing to see how apt and helpful some of the supporting material for that is in the current situation.

    Here’s the link, if anyone is interested:

    http://aaanz.mennonite.net/.cWtools/download.php/mnF=OntheRoadSpeciaEditionsept2001.pdf,mnOD=Newsletters%202001,mnOD=Newsletters,mnOD=My%20Documents,dc=aaanz,dc=mennonite,dc=net

  3. This, is Latter Rain influence.
    Stamped. Proved. Same taste.
    Reason behind Nalliah’s words – vanity gospel.

  4. Hi there S&P. Nice to see you still out there. Hope you are enjoying a step back. Don’t let this comment entice you out of your rest!

  5. I tried posting on the catch the fire ministries website but didn’t get through the moderation stage, despite using calm and sensible language. 😦
    And I hope that the words of other senior pastors will knock some sense into Ps. Danny’s head!

  6. I am appreciative of the thoughtful and biblical response of Mark Connor. When Danny got embroiled in the Victorian vilification case, I had some sympathy for his cause. At least it highlighted the double standards in our society where it is now easier to ridicule Christ than Mohammed. Mr. Nalliah seemed to be a passionate (though somewhat misguided) evangelist. I am now more of the opinion that he is leading some kind of strange Christian sect.

    Rather than representing the whole counsel of God, he instead has a concerning habit of selectively quoting (or misquoting) God’s word to support his own viewpoint. His doctrinal positions overemphasise a few Christian issues at the expense of other important concerns eg abortion versus social welfare, religious universalism versus foreign policy.

    Apart from mishandling the Bible, he is surprisingly naive about politics and often parrots media quotes at face-value. He has a tendency to confuse political ideology with biblical truth (in the way he mixes Prosperity theology with capitalistic Western values). His most famous prophecy (displayed on his web-site) stated that John Howard would win the last election and herald a new era of Christian leadership. He exhorted the faithful community of believers to vote for him. History has shown otherwise. But Danny had his useful ‘get-out’ clause. His paraphrased response was that ‘The Liberals lost because God’s people were faithless and that this will now be upon our heads’. I am not sure what Danny thinks now that his other favourite son, Peter Costello was brutally critical about his bushfire comments last week.

    At the time I tried to post a comment on his site. It was merely to point out the reassurance that the Messiah has already come and is now seated at God’s right hand. His return will then bring a unending period of everlasting peace and rejoicing to the faithful. This would be prefaced with the knowledge that things in our world were going to get a lot worst. I observed that the coming of Mr. Howard or Mr. Rudd did not seem to fit this description of events. Not thinking that this sounded too heretical, I was surprised (as others have previously experienced) this contrary response was not displayed. Catch the Fire ministries don’t seem very keen on brooking any comments that undermine Danny’s authority. I hope that their Christian faith doesn’t also shift with Danny’s fortunes.

    I don’t expect Danny to be humbled by the criticism of the media or even by his (misguided?) Christian brothers. The problem is that he is in a powerful position of leadership and it concerns me about the misplaced trust he receives by those who listen uncritically to him.

    My prayer is that he (and his followers) are humbled by the knowledge that they are all equally in need of God’s grace as much as everyone else who they believe sits under God’s judgement.

    This is a warning to each of us that about letting someone else constantly speak on God’s behalf. We all need to turn to the Bible (God’s revealed word) a little more closely and comprehend the amazing truth that it only Christ who has won the right to build God’s church and gather people in His name.

    And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

    Revelations 5:2-5

  7. I agree with your thoughtful take on Nalliah, Raving Evangelical.

    Especially your conclusion re not letting someone else constantly speak to us on God’s behalf, and rather turning to the Bible.

    I find it incredible that so many people are fooled by people like DN, when it doesn’t take much to reveal their errors. I can only conclude that people deeply desire to believe these charismatic leaders, more than they wish to know the truth in scripture.

    There is nothing wrong with questioning theology, and seeking truth, but in many of these places, there is a greater pressure to believe the ‘right’ things, than there is respect for the process of seeking. Yet Jesus said, ‘Seek and you will find’.

    I wish people would seek a bit more, so that they would be freed of these misguided teachers, but I think a lot of these charismatic leaders fool people into thinking that seeking truth (or continuing to seek once they have found their church home) is doubting God.

  8. Part of the reason that people believe “prophets” like Danny might be that he provides some explanation for seemingly random, senseless and terrible events.

    When he links it to some action on the part of people, it provides an explanation. It gives a sense of security to explain it as some sort of punishment, because then one can do something to avoid the punishment in the future. Its also comforting to think of oneself as being on the side of the good-guys and not the bad-guys who in effect caused the tragedy.

    In middle-class Australia its difficult for us to think that tragedy can strike at any moment, and there may be nothing we can do about it and no one to blame.

    My Mother died just after Christmas. She bought me a present in the morning, had a great day with the relatives and grand-kids and then collapsed suddenly and died of an embolism. She’d been given a clean bill of health at her checkup two weeks earlier. Some people try to make sense of it by trying to find some aspect of her health that she had neglected etc. But in the end its futile to try to find someone to blame.

    My wife’s nephew recently escaped the fires, although his friends did not. How do you make sense of it all? Not by any simple explanations, and that what is really scary.

  9. Wazza, I’m very sorry to hear of the loss of your mother. Sounds like she had looked after herself at least as well as anyone does. At least she had the chance to see everyone just before she passed on.

    I’m glad to hear your wife’s nephew escaped the fires – it must be very difficult for him to come to terms with the death of his friends in the circumstances. My cousin lost his (uninsured) house in the previous Victorian fires, but this time it has all been so much worse.

    My sister and her partner lost 4 close friends in the last 2 years or so to tragic accidents of different types. One was a family including an 18 month old child (child not included in the tally above), in a car accident that was not their fault. It has not been an easy time.

    We don’t need people like DN making it more difficult. I think your explanation is probably part of his appeal for some people.

  10. Despite all our greatest human achievements, Man has not been able to solve the deep metaphysical questions that trouble each and every one of us. No matter how rational some people appear to be, they still turn to the occult and other superstitions to find meaning and security in this world.

    Christians are not immune to this either. There is a dangerous belief taught widely amongst Christian circles that when God responds to prayer, his answers can be three-fold, ‘Yes’, ‘No’ or ‘Wait’. Where in the Bible is God ever obligated to provide a specific reason for everything that happens in this world and to those around us? Is this question even relevant when the greatest victory has already been won, namely the right to be named as co-heirs with Christ of God’s kingdom. Death is no longer the enemy. Yet there are some believers who find a distinct lack of satisfaction and contentment from this revelation and promise.

    I have no problems where modern day prophets words declare God’s glory and draw people nearer in faith to Him. However, mystical biblical interpretations and prophecies that bring acclaim to the speaker or provide beguiling insights into the future should be viewed with caution. God has something to say about people who find this attractive – he calls it faithlessness and ungodliness.

    The book of Timothy is equally critical, ”As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.”

    The Book of Job is a wonderful and instructive story about God’s sovereignty. While Job suffered under God’s hand, all his ‘helpful’ friends tried to offer plausible explanations for his misfortunes. God is not pleased with their apparently pious advice. Amidst all the pain and confusion God’s sharp response begins, “Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?” He goes on not to explain his own actions or the perverted machinations of Satan. Rather it was to remind the puny Job how great and trustworthy was his Master.

    We now see this in completion through the great reassurance that Christ has secured a place in His kingdom for all those who place their trust in Him:

    “…in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Romans 8:37-39

  11. Umm, Wazza …

    from that last post, it is clear that Raving Evangelical is definitely not FaceLift.

    “I have no problems where modern day prophets words declare God’s glory and draw people nearer in faith to Him. However, mystical biblical interpretations and prophecies that bring acclaim to the speaker or provide beguiling insights into the future should be viewed with caution. God has something to say about people who find this attractive – he calls it faithlessness and ungodliness.”

    clearly Raving Evangelical is showing up everyone on the Elijah List with that comment.

    Basically, the so called super-apostles and prophets of the New Apostolic Reformation are same type of people that Jeremiah roundly condemned. “Peace, peace when there is no peace” becomes “revival, revival when there is no revival.”

    The Lakeland hypefest was the greatest disaster in the charismatic church for decades.

    So many people deceived. So many with itching ears. So many desperate for a breakthrough into the ‘promise’ of the church taking over (dominionism).

    The Bible doesn’t teach dominionism. Jesus doesn’t promise that the church will take over ready for his return.

    Jesus said:
    “There will be a great falling away.
    The love of MOST will grow cold.
    THEN the gospel will be preached to ALL the nations.”

    There hasn’t been a great falling away yet. It might be possible to suggest that the western world has experienced a ‘falling away’. However, the language suggests a better interpretation is lots of individual believers lose their faith in a short space of time, not nations drifting away over a long time.

    Much of the church will give up God. There will be more Fakeland revivals. More people will give up on God.

    It’s a depressing picture, but then we realise that Jesus promised that this would happen and the ultimate promise is that the Gospel WILL be preached to ALL nations after the falling away.

    That is good news.

    Shalom.

  12. I’m not so sure RE is definately not Facelift. I refer you to this thread where we asked Facelift several times if he was “Kong Phew”.

    https://signposts02.wordpress.com/2008/10/07/what-is-moderation-anyway/#comment-3059

    His response “Kong Phew, well he left so many clues which could, maybe, suggest this, really, but yet its a mystery. Lets keep it so…”

    This after much previous misdirection.

    Whoever RE is, I think they are a bit insensitive. You dont bang on about the promise of Jesus when someone is in mourning. There is the right time for everything.

  13. I’d like to register here the point I made on another thread, that wazza2 always attempts to make this personal, and will eventually claim ‘it’s all about FaceLift’, when it is, once again, he who has made it so. He’s a serial accuser, who has an agenda to deface my opinion because he has no answer to sound logic and doctrine.

    I apologised big-time for offending people by using another blog-name on this and groupsects’ blog, which, as I have repeatedly said, was a protest for Lance’s lack of fortitude in commenting on FaceLift whilst banning him at the same time, and for falsely accusing me of fraud because I commented in the name of signpostsfree, which is the name I use on this site to post, and to demonstrate the relative futility of banning people!!!!

    I said I was sorry to everyone here, and to the groupsects crowd, including Lance. Kong Phew was clearly a protest, and a tongue-in-cheek exercise which you didn’t appreciate. I am hardly likely to repeat the offence. I said sorry, and I meant it.

    I am not Raving Evangelical, or Nikky, or anyone else but FaceLift, and signpostsfree, on this blog, or groupsects, where I can’t comment anyway.

    Now, wazza2, how about taking the focus off FaceLift by putting up some decent posts we can all discuss, and making Signposts02 the kind of blog you claim you would like see. I’m not posting so that you can get some of your opinion pieces up there, and set the tone for what you would like Signposts02 to be.

    By the way, Raving Evangelical, I like the way you are contributing.

  14. My apologies to Wazza and those who have suffered loss from the Victorian Bushfires. My comments were general in nature rather than directed to those in mourning. Even as I posted it, I realised that it may not be the most appropriate message for a wider audience. To my shame, I fell into the same temptation of trying to provide ‘answers’ rather than let people turn to God themselves for comfort and reassurance. As you say there is a time for everything, including just being a loving friend to those who are still struggling with coming to terms with these events.

  15. Your apology is accepted RE, and I am sorry for mixing you up with FaceLift.

    I also apologise to FaceLift for the tone and the hard-heartedness I displayed.

    Thats me out, at least for a while. Best wishes to all – whatever this blog/community decides to focus on and become.

  16. To prevent unhelpful speculation, I definitely do not have another nom de plume on this forum. On the hand the issue is academic. People should be rightly on guard against false teachings on the internet or otherwise. The only security one has against this is to prayerfully test everything (as the Bible teaches) against the authority of Scripture rather than the credentials of any person. Even faithful teachers can be fallible but God’s word isn’t.

  17. Apology accepted, wazza2. I read you’ve had a recent loss, for which I offer commiseration. I wasn’t aware of your situation so I hope I haven’t added to your sorrow.

    RE
    ‘Even faithful teachers can be fallible but God’s word isn’t’.

    Agreed, which is why we need to give time and space for well-meaning teachers to change and repent, even if they write or preach incorrect doctrine, or to receive rebuke and correction, if they are big enough to approach their faith with humility. Meanwhile, if we test scripture for ourselves, and study prayerfully with the help of the Holy Spirit, our greatest enemy won’t be bad teaching, but the pride of those teachers, or critics, who refuse to accept that they are neither perfect or infallible.

  18. Incidentally, I have it first hand that some pretty heavy hitters amongst the Australian Pentecostal clans have personally made it clear to Danny that his approach was morally and doctrinally wrong. This will be a test of his willingness to reconsider his approach, or go it alone on this issue.

  19. “I have it first hand that some pretty heavy hitters amongst the Australian Pentecostal clans have personally made it clear to Danny that his approach was morally and doctrinally wrong.”

    That’s good to hear. I wonder what his response will be. If he continues in his past mode, will these leaders make it clear that they don’t support his ministry, I wonder? It would be in their best interest to do so, and might help some of his followers not to be led so far astray.

    But I agree with RE – as long as anyone looks to leaders more than they do to scripture, they will always be misled at some point by human pride, self-interest or some other human agenda. On the other hand, leaders who are humble enough to allow questioning and discussion, and not to condemn those who have different views on scripturally arguable subjects, can be of great value in a community.

    Wazza – hope you have some restful time if you take a break from this blog; we will pray for you and your family. Hope to see you back here in your own time, too!

    Sorry to all that I haven’t got the guidelines up yet, and thank you to FL for being considerate and restrained in the interim – much appreciated.

  20. Only God’s spirit working throught the relevation of God’s word can change a man’s heart. But there are two separate issues here. One is the personal walk a man has with Christ and the second is his fitness for leading God’s people.

    The Bible speaks about the heavy responsibility that shepherds have over their flock and the greater accountability they have for their actions.

    Every leader needs to constantly reflect about his solemn obligation to lead people closer to relationship with God and not to themselves.

    A good test for followers is to imagine if your pastor, teacher or Bible-study group leader abandoned their faith, was involved in a scandal or died. What would happen to your faith? Who would you turn to? Where would you find your source of comfort and reassurance? How would you continue on in sound teaching and doctrine? If you cannot answer Christ or the Bible then you probably have a serious problem.

    The Paul’s Letter to the Phillipian church has a gracious and godly outlook which focuses on the most important person.

    “It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”

  21. Nothings is new. Be firm. Remain faithful.

    Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    Matthew 24:4-8

    We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.

    Romans 8:22-24

    For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Romans 8:38-39

    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
    He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

    He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

    Revelation 21:1-7

  22. I totally disagree with the majority of comments here, simply because they are ill informed or unscriptural. Danny Nahlia does not proclaim to be a Prophet, nor does the Bible restrict such things to Prophets, ‘old men shall dream dreams’. I have also written a response to Mr Mark Conners letter, Mr Conner doesnt seem to beleive that God judges people now, he seems to relegate and and all forms of judgement to ‘the wrath to come’. Mr Conner needs to read his Bible Acts 5, Acts 13:11, 1 Cor 5:5 and many more scriptures speak about New testament judgment of God now.Mr nahlia did not state that the fires were from God he n fact states that they were from the devil as a result of the sin of walking away from Judeo Christian values as a Nation and the blessing of God being lifted as a result of leaving them in this manner, he simply had a dream, posted it long before the fires occurred and the fires occured he then reminded them that these laws should not have been passed and conveyed the message regarding such. the fact is, surely the Lord does nothing without first revealing it’ must be theologically taken into account here, the man had a dream and it happened, hello, is anyone reading the Bible? Then after such had occurred he came forward and reminded them, read the Word, Prophets of old would do this as well as the Lord in reminding people, heck even you would remind your kids after they suffered for making stupid decisions not to do it again lest something else go wrong. the truth is, most people seem passionate about having a go at Mr Nahlia enought to write against a whole bunch of people doing something, what are u doing? anything? because their something is certainly better than your nothing, further did you spend any time writing to your politicians about this?

  23. Well …

    when talking about God judging a Nation … we certainly see examples of God Judging Israel. We also see the Judgment of God on other Nations around Israel.

    Those who bless Israel are blessed, those who curse Israel are cursed.

    Now, we come to some of the promises … I will paraphrase.

    “Keep my commandments and turn from your wicked ways and I will heal your land.”
    (Chronicles …)

    I had that quoted in my church on Sunday. Well, the land associated with this promise is not the UK, much less Australia. It is Israel.

    On the flip side of this Romans Chapter 1 shows us what happens when societies give God up. God gives them up.

    When a society turns to all sorts of depravity, God lets them get much worse. We see this all through the western world. There is a decadence, a corruption, a falling away. This is Rome in the last days of its fading glory.

    We see all sorts of immorality these days … I’ll give you just one example.

    “No fault” divorce.

    That tells me that both parties simply can’t be bothered with each other enough to even blame the other person for the break-up … when God calls marriage a covenant, not a contract.

    Easy come, easy go. Plenty more fish in the sea. I know of one Pastor who was dealing with a couple who wanted to get divorced … they eventually owned up and admitted that they both had found someone else they wanted to be married to. He met someone else on a train who knew him and this guy asked the Pastor the following question.

    “I have left my wife and I am living with another woman. If I divorced my wife and married my lover, would this make it alright with God.”

    The Pastor said “No.”

    The man said “I thought you’d say that.”

    His stop was coming up so the Pastor knew he only had few moments more with him. So he said this “you have a very difficult decision to make … I wish I could make it for you.

    You cannot have both this woman and Jesus. You have to choose.”

    The man fled the train with tears in his eyes.

    It’s one of the saddest things I can think of … but I agree with the Pastor. God cannot put up with blatant immorality and still be righteous. Which makes me think “what have I been doing?”

    Danny can do and say what he likes … but as he is just a man, his words must be weighed and judged just like any other person. Every believer is on the same level playing field.

    Shalom

  24. I’m a little horrified that the pastor would make such a comment without knowing the man’s situation in more detail. Usually our lives are more complex than pure black and white.

    Of course the man needs to repent from a sinful situation, but that’s an inner struggle which he may have been dealing with between him and God. It simply may not be helped by giving him that kind of ultimatum – give up this woman or you lose your eternal destiny. However – when asked a direct question, of course the Pastor would give a direct answer.

    It is possible that the man will choose the woman, at some stage repent, and be accepted as a repenting sinner by God. As we all are. God knows whether we are using Him as a get out of jail free card, without real repentance, or if we are genuinely repentant in our hearts. He would still have to deal with the consequences in his life of his sin.

    So I think that the pastor’s extra comment was potentially harmful. What if the man wants to repent, at some stage – even years – after choosing the woman, but now believes that he can never be saved?

  25. Doz, if that were true, that God is punishing people re the laws of the land you don’t think that Amsterdam or similiar country would have been “targeted”. You don’t think He would strike lightening on greedy banks or totaletarian countries. Natural disasters are just that, random natural occasions. There’s some good books on the subject that will open your mind about such issues. One is called “When Bad Things Happen to Good People” It also paraphrases the book of Job in excellent detail.

  26. Yes, its all “principles” again and how you apply them. If we took the book of Job as our guide, it could be that Australia becoming too righteous and good. Therefore the devil has asked God to allow him to send trials to us, to test our faithfulness.

    Under this model if Danny and the catch-the-fire mob werent so good and righteous, it may have been that we could have avoided those fires.

  27. As a counseller I if I told someone going through a tragedy similiar garbage i would not only probably be sacked but it would injure that person even more.

    Tragedy happens to good and bad people to medicore people, Doz that “thinking” just isn’t logical and downright dangerous.

  28. Yes, its all “principles” again and how you apply them. If we took the book of Job as our guide, it could be that Australia becoming too righteous and good. Therefore the devil has asked God to allow him to send trials to us, to test our faithfulness.

    – wazza

    Good point wazza. Hadn’t thought of that, but you are right.

  29. Just to clarify the book of Job was used in this book to illustrate how other people treated Job’s predicament. One blamed Job for his tragedy etc etc. These OT examples make good parables and stories to learn from but I don’t take it all verbatim.

  30. I think I know what you mean mj. Taking verses out of context verbatim – ie. “proof texting” is a problem, this is essentially what I did above to show that if you have a point to prove you can pretty much find a verse to prove it.

    My understanding is that with the Jewish scriptures (Talmud?), the original book eg Job is printed in the centre of the page. Around the outside is printed all the interpretations and applications made by Rabbis through the ages. There may be some problems with this approach, but the benefit would be to show the reader that there are multiple interpretations of a scripture, and the first one that occurs to them might not be the right one.

  31. Dear Doz,

    To facilitate the dicussion could you clarify your theological position on the following:

    1) The passage from 1 Corinthians 14:26-39 on orderly worship and the church’s use of gifts

    2) The general message and warnings that Paul makes to the Corinthians church

    3) The differences between the Old and New covenant in relation to God’s kingdom, rule and judgment

  32. RP, understood.

    But I understand it was a “Word of Knowledge” moment.

    The man had reached a crossroads in his life and sometimes, people do make decisions that remain with them for life.

    The real question is, is falling in love with another woman an acceptable excuse for adultery, followed by divorce and remarriage to the new woman?

    We might say this is ok, but what does God Himself say? What does He feel about this?

    Some Christians say this, other Christians say that, but no one seems to be asking “What does God say and feel about it?”.

    We tend to deal with things Pastorally and look to restore and recover people back to some point where they can re-engage and be active for God and so on.
    However, it’s usually at the expense of lowering our own standards to meet the people where they are. Jesus never did this. He raised people to meet His standards.

    I am as broken as the next man … hear my heart in this. It’s a difficult thing to come to terms with, when as a man, you discover that your wife is always right. It becomes impossible to have a disagreement without all your misdeeds coming up in the ‘conversation’.
    Me, I forget what she did wrong before. 😦

    Fortunately. 😐

    It makes making up easier that I don’t have a long memory for some things. 🙂

    Some days can be tough can’t they?

    Shalom

  33. “The real question is, is falling in love with another woman an acceptable excuse for adultery, followed by divorce and remarriage to the new woman?” – Bull

    Just to clear up any ambiguity – my answer – this is definitely not OK!

    It may well have been a Word of Knowledge moment, and hopefully that was the case.

    Just that I’ve come across the odd example where things haven’t been quite as they might have first appeared to some people – a man marrying a new wife, the man divorced, but his previous wife had been in a bad accident, leaving her with a changed personality where she no longer wanted her husband. Or another where the wife refused to sleep with her husband, ever, and they divorced; he remarried. Just two that I’ve known. Anyway they’ve made me reluctant to make any kind of quick call without the benefit of greater info.

    However, in the case you describe, it sounds as though the man may well have wanted the pastor to say what he already knew in his heart.

    ***********

    BTW – I don’t believe that anyone is always right. Its hard sometimes to be fair in conversation when emotions come into play, but good for us to try, and hopefully apologise when we stuff up, hence I apologise a lot to Heretic. Its very good to forget whatever it is that we each do wrong. I am lucky – my memory is very bad, and its a gift. (For example, Heretic can tell me the same joke many times, and I’ll have always forgotten the punchline.) Hope your day has not been too tough.

  34. “My understanding is that with the Jewish scriptures (Talmud?), the original book eg Job is printed in the centre of the page. Around the outside is printed all the interpretations and applications made by Rabbis through the ages. There may be some problems with this approach, but the benefit would be to show the reader that there are multiple interpretations of a scripture, and the first one that occurs to them might not be the right one.” – wazza2

    Yes, I love this kind of approach.

  35. Mj with all due respect i dont need my mind opened by any other book other than the scriptures, they like most of our comments are and would be simply a commentary on the scriptures, however, in order to rightly divide the word of God to attain to a thesis we must include all of the Bible, that can take some time, in doing so we must also not take the scripture out of context in each case. Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible, Job is also post flood writing and comes under the ‘sons of God covenant’ before the Law of Moses, to which we can only piece together small amounts of information. what is clear though is that in the giving of the Law of Moses God made promise of protection IF they obeyed, to which they gladly received the covenant knowing that they were now being given promises to which Job had not been given. When we look at the New Covenant what we find is ‘greater promises’. that being the case, Job did not have promises to the likes of a born again believer, thus before we bring Job’s situation into New Covenant theology we must see if the Lord has given us a promise that Job had not been given. In other words, no NT beleiver should fear such a situation as Job’s to come upon them if the Lord had promised otherwise in which there are many scriptures of such.

  36. Dear RavingPente, firstly I like your name, secondly, your comment is one to which I hear commonly from the ‘dont judge anyone’ crowd, i may be wrong and for that I apologise if so, however Bulls comments were very sound and the story is obviously secong hand, but theologically speaking the ministry of Jesus Christ was direct and forward regarding sin. It is a wonderful thing to see that this man was torn at least there was conviction and godly sorrow leads to repentance and repentance to life, obviously the man should get proper pastoral counsell but if he is saved he will ultimately choose Jesus Christ and His righteousness, to do otherwise would be of grave concern for his eternity.

  37. Mj your comments about random natural disasters are not theological either, for if we look at the book of Job we find that satan was the cause of what we would class today as natural disasters. I am in no way stating that the devil is the cause of all such but rather the effects of sin upon the earth, the creature groans Romans tells us, however, to state as an absolute that natural disasters are just that is not scriptural. In relation to Amsterdam and so on one would have to seek out their history to see what they were founded upon and if in the occurance of a leaving their foundation if such disasters have occurred, for that i do not know, howvere it must be taken into acount, you seem to be infering that no such disasters have occurred, have you studied such?

  38. Wazza2 makes a good reasonable argument and i found it quite amusing, however on the serious side of things folks i’d rather live righteous and have a whole lot of trouble in this life than live like a devil and have to answer for it.

  39. MJ on the logical thinking part i dont care for such its biblical thinking that i care for. as for your counselling career im not sure if your a Christian but if you profess so then i wouldnt do anything that compromised my Biblical faith, and i would glady take the sacking, or i would respectfully leave. Its about the ministry of Jesus as example, the Word of God as a never compromise and the Holy Spirit as an individual application for each situation. the fruit at the end of the day should be the fruits of righteousness and repentant change and inclination towards a scriptural walk, if you cannot produce such then its chuck it in the garbage and back to the Bible mate, no disrespect just my two cents standng up for the Word.

  40. Dear Raving Evangelical, no i cannot, and the reason being is that for a small forum post i do not have enough room and i have already posted signifcantly. There are far to many issued brought up that would need space for me to clarify n such a passage.

    Secondly, how will this facilitate the discussion, if you are looking to determin my theological point of views you shouldve asked what denomnation belong to if any, whether i am calvinistic regarding soteriology and so on. I beleive in the gifts of the spirit and orderly worship, I am not a cessationist.

    Regarding the warnings the Apostle Paul makes to the Corinthian belevers they are vast from drunkenness to fornication and much more.

    The third point cannot be summed up in a few points as the question is far to broad, however, as i have said before, regarding Mr Conners article it was not sound, false, defamitory and unscriptural, and this is coming from a man who has no opinion on whether or not Mr Nahlia’s comments were in fact true (that being the work of God, the devil or a natural disaster), what i do know is the Bible and it does speak about smaller individual judegments other than the wrath to come. I may answer part of your question with a question, “Does the Lord have anything to say to leaders of Nations today”, if so what would it be and what would be the repercussion of disregarding such, theres my judgement upon nations theology.

    3) The differences between the Old and New covenant in relation to God’s kingdom, rule and judgment

  41. apologies if ive posted to much and i sncerely hope that havent offended and have added some light to these conversations, blessings

  42. He does mn, he’s like the son of fl. Even if I wanted to I would not risk losing my job as I need to feed my family (Doz said he would risk being sacked). I think God wants charity to begin at home. Yes Doz sin has caused alot of suffering and perhaps destroying nature hasn’t helped the earth.

  43. Doz, its interesting to get your views. I don’t think we’ve had anyone here before who has quite the same mix of opinions as you offer. No you haven’t offended, in fact you’ve been very polite including where you disagree with us.

    Glad you like my name. 🙂

  44. Doz, forgive me if im wrong, are you young? As a Christian for 49 years I have seen the rain fall on the good and the bad and I don’t exactly know how God works but he seems to have made a level playing field for Jew and Gentile.

    He wants us not to fret and to know He is always around but also He knows this world is passing away and there will be times of testing and troubles for most.

  45. “…if you are looking to determin my theological point of views you shouldve asked what denomnation belong to if any, whether i am calvinistic regarding soteriology and so on…” – doz

    It does help us when we have a context for a fellow commenter.

    Doz, if you are still reading the blog – I did ask you this on another thread, so I’ll just ask again here in case you miss the other one. I asked if you were submitted and accountable to anyone, as you seemed to regard that as important, and I also wonder if you are a leader of any kind.

    Hope that’s not too many questions. If you are not comfortable disclosing the answers here, that’s fine.

  46. Thanks Rave, yes i am a minister of the Gospel an Apostle for those looking for specifics in relation to ascension ministries. I was discipled for 9 years 7 years under one minister before being released to another minister for 2 years, after which i was released into the ministry of an Apostle to plant churches, planted and pastored the first for 3.5 years before the Lord told me to go and plant again, the ministry is now 6 years old and we have 5 churches. I have a number of ministry elders that have known me and my manner of life and ministry for over 10 years who i am accountable to, my accountability is such that most people would be shocked but accountability is my best friend, it helps me stay Biblical. Apologies for the many posts i read and write very quickly. MJ ‘young’ has nothing to do with the Bible, Job 32:5-9, we live in a culture that seems to forget scripture, our Lord never made it past the age of 33, suffice to say i am older than the Lord, i hope that makes me worthy enough in your eyes to speak both inspirationally, theologically and experientially. The scriptures you also quoted are Mat 5:45 this scripture denotes blessing alone and not evil. Level playing field is correct for Jew and Gentile as God shows no partiality, however, he has still promises to confirm to the Jews that will be fulfilled in the latter days. and yes there will be tests and trial but……..be of good cheer for i have overcome the world, (the bills, the sickness’s, the defeats, the sin etc)John 16:33. Folks i wouldve much rather strayed away from my credential and position as such as I beleive that if a 5 year old quotes the Word of God and is correct we must immediately concede on the basis of the authority of scripture, i certainly hope that u will immediately correct me if i am unscriptural as age, ministry position or otherwise has nothing to do with correct theological position, Acts 17:11 we should be as the Bereans who even tested the great Apostle Paul bringing his teachings back to scripture, thanks

  47. Mj regarding your comments, i am absolutely shocked! firstly, you have commented alone on the basis that i said that i would risk being sacked with no regard to the prior statement which was ‘IF ANYTHING COMPROMISED MY FAITH’ i would leave it, i do not nor should any person professiong to be christian hold money (a wage) above their honour bound duty to follow the Bible, to do is to be bought! And secondly, where is your faith? these are certainly the tests the Lord can and does put us through to determine who is first in our lives, i have personally left jobs that compromised my christianity and having a wife and 4 children i know the stresses of provision, but the Lord is our provider, surely one could not walk away righteously and starve.

    Folks i apologise if my writing is strong, i am in no way meaning offence, i am by nature very direct and aggressive so please understand this is just writing, hope not to offend but rather debate and ponder the Word of God together.

  48. counselling and helping people didn’t compromise my faith Doz but enhanced it actually. There are policies in the health system one must adhere to such as not “pushing” your ideals onto another. For an extreme example that would be exorcisms performed on people unwell. Saying they “have a demon” that is not showing understanding and compassion. I worked in admin most of my life and changed to sociology/psychology and really enjoy it after talking about money all the time (accountants, insurance et al)

  49. I know its a sidetrack, but re quitting jobs over one’s faith – my job would have compromised my faith one time; I offered to resign rather than carry out the unethical instruction I ‘d been given; prayed about it over the weekend; instead of having to resign, the ethical course was chosen and I was promoted and given a pay rise. Some months later, I was given a sub peona re the project; because I’d refused to do the unethical thing, I was able to call the instigator of the court case and persuade them to leave me and the company out of it. Doing the ethical thing was hard at the time, but later saved a lot more pain.

    Of course this is just professional behaviour – not specific to Christians, but to any person determined to carry out their role in an ethical, professional manner. Not always easy, depending upon the environment. But my faith really helped, and God did more than just look after me at the time.

    I wouldn’t say this happens all the time. I had no kids back then, no debt – the pressures could have been worse for someone in those shoes, but the right thing to do was still to hold fast ethically and professionally. Nonetheless, I do have sympathy for those in very difficult situations who succomb. Faith in God’s provision is a necessity at times like that.

  50. I know what you mean I had a boss who would ask me to lie on occasion ( I was his secretary ) I was young and did but felt guilty.

    Its a tricky one

  51. Hey Doz you sound like a really hard-lined Christian. Forgive me for asking but what is your opinion on say homosexuality

  52. Doz Says:

    November 27, 2009 at 7:19 pm
    I dont know much about it.. but I am willing to learn.

    whooa, wots going on the above post i never wrote! neither was i on here at that time, if there are two doz’z can the moderators change this please, if this happens again, i am leaving this forum, moderators take note, if my name comes on a post i never posted i will not be on this forum ever again!

    Here is my view on Homosexuality, my view is the Bible’s view, (cocky arent i) that being the practice of Homosexuality is wrong, and has eternal consequences. I also have intimate experience with regard to this subject and have seen many homosexuals convert to Christ who are now happily married with children, i am currently ministering to one now.

  53. Bull, this is a question that is hard to answer because its certainly not about the day but the heart of the person, or their being bound without proper counsel to be able to get out of working on that day, and that really would only apply to the church they are members of IF that is, the day they come together to celebrate is Sunday. hope u get the gist

  54. Doz – re the fake comment – fortunately it had wazza2’s icon attached to it, not yours, so we all know it was wazza! I did LOL.

    Wazza, down! 🙂

  55. Sorry Doz my question was a little below the belt, (pardon the pun) :o)

    I have alot of Christian friends most are pro-choice and quite leftist but others more legalistic, we try and encompass all opinions and agree to disagree

  56. Very sorry Doz, I couldnt resist that joke. The same two questions were in a questionaire that we had at a Christian school I was involved with (attitude to homosexuality, and whether you support sport on Sundays) I argued that those questions were a little unfair to ask teaching candidates in a questionaire – but I was over-ruled.

    “my view is the Bible’s view” – Doz. Doz, how would you deal with someone who had a slightly different interpretation of the scriptures? Lets say someone who felt it was extremely important that all women wear hats in church, and stated that his view was the Bible’s view on this (as per 1 Corinthians 11). What would your argument be against this proposition.

  57. Joke taken, no probs, for a moment i had concerns for a big brother type of thing going on to facilitate doctrinal conversation towards a view.

    There is no such thing as a leftist Christian and a ‘Pro Death’ christian, the only time that the Bible accepts such is the person being truly saved by grace but is a brand new christian with Biblically uneducated views or is extreemely immature and or ignorant of the scriptures. Abortion in the name of convenience other than a last minute medical attempt to save the mothers life is a view that one cannot be on the Lord’s side and have a personal view on as well. I have dealt with such people who were PHD’s with big reputations in reputable Bible colleges, when i first started to see such compromise i was shocked, id never beleived coming from drugs, immorality and all of these opinions being wonderfully saved and beginning to read the Word of God and let go of all of my opinions to embrace the only true and right one ‘Jesus Christ’s’ that i would hear such things in Christianity, one repents of such views not the other way around. One such lecturer would leave the room without answering the scriptures this too is unheard of, and shows that one cannot give scriptural answers to their views of which according to Christianity they must then leave, but the days where they will not endure sound doctrine are with us, within a year one of those lecturers now embraces homosexuality and much much more. I certainly understand those who have different views and the facilitation of such on this forum, hence when i come to a forum quite often im looking to be opposed with scripture so as to either repent and change my views or to educate, but mostly i am just sharpening the sword so to speak. I want to be a man that is honest, i want to know what God says about the things that face me in this life, i never want to give someone one word otherwise than what Jesus Christ would say to them thats why i strive to remain humble and teachable.

    How would I go with different views?? The majority of the Word of God and its subject are pretty much as plain as the ol nose on your face, however, many are also subject to the context of the situation or circumstance of the Christian as the Bible can offer a couple of avenues for a person to go down, both of which are scriptural, thus the Holy Spirit needs to be consulted for which one to take to determine the will of God in this instance, but each one will line up with scripture and in no way go against it.

    when your talking about a ‘slightly different view’ its not that often, they are normally just plain different. Firstly, I am quite relaxed around others with different views i cant say as much for many others however. With the articles of our faith i will not deal with the ‘i feel’ or the ‘i think’ they are subject to the ‘it is written’ therefore i will only hear scripture on a subject. I determine who the person is and where they are at to establish why they have come to such a view, ie: theyve heard it, they are young in the Lord, they are ignorant, they are evil, they are arrogant, their view fits their life or helps them in some way, financial gain, sexual choice, and other possibilities. when the apostles of the Lord heard the disciples of John preaching they didnt run in and tell them they were heretics, they let them finish, they saw their heart and loved them. then asked them questions about what they had learned, and explained more perfectly ‘the Way’ to them. Its important to determine a persons heart as i can then not get upset with them if they genuinely and innocently beleive what they are saying is the truth, however, i will attempt to facilitate constructive debate of the scriptures, something of which most Christians cannot handle and end up making it destructive, thats just pride because a person cannot handle challenege but if its the truth it will stand up against anything. Jesus has taught us to give an answer for the hope in us. Therefore if your outscriptured you must concede the point and change you view for it is an exalted thought 2 Cor 10:5 and is not of God, i simply do not hold to any thought above God’s thoughts.

    regarding 1 Cor 11, verse 15 tells us its her hair. I have ministered in a large Romanian church where the women all wore head covering’s so im not offended but would rather show them that the Lord is not looking at their head covering but their heart, in such cases i will not offend their tradition and understand if they beleive it so, however, being that it is the church’s duty to teach and preach the doctrines of our faith if I were to be in the position charged with their discipleship it is of the utmost importance to me that they understand scripture actually speaks against these things becoming ordinances and religious observances. They would only have conviction of wearing a head covering because of their understanding of the text or their upbringing, they then fall into the Rom 14 category of which i may be charged to not offend them in. I would actually counsel that a woman wear a head covering if she were to minister to a certain people group so as not to offend and get the real work done, then later as they grew i would aim to wrestle it off them but only as the Lord directed, otherwise it really doesnt matter mate, its about their heart and the fruits that come forth from having such

  58. Hey look i’ll actually tell you a true and very funny story. A man came through a village of people to organise a very high up Catholc Bishop’s visit to come in a week, the people were natives to which catholicism had reigned in missionizing to some degree, so they were respectful but the ladies as you know wear no tops and only grass skirts, the man told them that they needed to learn some respect and that they must wear tops before the Bishop was to arrive as they may offend him with their breasts being exposed. anyways the week went by and a local greeting was organised by the natives to which all the ladies stood at the ramp of his plane like a red carpet type of walk of greeting, they were very respectful and there was no humour in what they were doing, but they had no tops on and as the Bishop exited the ladies on either side of a long walk lifted their skirts to cover their breasts, well you could imagine most would take the lessor evil lol i though that was hillarious, i tell my ministers if we go into a place as such, keep it above board, be a man of God, love these people and dont sin, we would minister to them in love not looking at them in this manner to bear with them and eventually we may decide to speak to the elders of the tribes about their commttment to faith in Christ and his desire for their women to cover themselves appropriately but this would need to be done over a significant time and very gently and carefully, hope ya’ll ha a laugh at that anyways, blessings

  59. Doz said, “eventually we may decide to speak to the elders of the tribes about their commttment to faith in Christ and his desire for their women to cover themselves appropriately”.

    Some current cultures consider exposure of the face or even ankle as indecent. Similarly what we would consider conservative dress now would be ‘inappropriate’ 100 years ago e.g. women with pants yet we remain un-offended. What is the Biblical answer to “appropriateness”?

    What is the significance of the nakedness of Adam and Eve pre and post fall? Was it related to style and extent of attire?

  60. Doz and RE both bring up the question of cultural context. Its always difficult to determine how much of a passage in scripture is related to the culture of the day and what part of it is universal – and how that should be translated into our own culture or the cultures of the people we may minister to.

    I’d say that Paul talking about women covering their heads was probably related to the cultural practice of the day. It was probably a mark of modesty to cover your head and to leave it uncovered invited attention from men. Today that’s not the case, and to use certain headcoverings actually makes a person stand out more.

    However, the above is an interpretation based on reasonable knowledge. The scripture actually says there is not to be any contention on this issue – that this is what is done in the Churches of God.

    So all this needs to be taken into account when you interpret scripture. This is the kind of thing that your friends the students of Theology were probably learning over the last 20 years. Its not something that can be picked up straight from the Bible, it needs study, conteplation and guidance from the Holy Spirit of course.

  61. mj Says:

    November 28, 2009 at 1:29 pm
    C S Lewis says pride is the worst sin.

    id have to say that the Lord most likely doesnt make a distinction, however, to me i will have to agree wth CJ Lewis on this one MJ, it is responible for some of the greatest destructions in our faith, my prayer is that i will not allow it in my own life and that it will remain nailed to the Cross always.

  62. regarding the doctrine of clothing, clothing was added by the Lord after sin. Its funny to think that if this hadnt of happened me and my wife would have greeted you and your wife with complete honesty and holiness in the nude, lol, because of our fallen nature its no longer possible to completely trust man to be filled with the Spirit and not give way to their flesh, for this reason the Lord has helped us and thank God for that. there are other possible reasons as well that being we became mortal and subject to the elements needing to be covered to keep from exposure to such, but the first point has got to be on the top of the list. As for appropriatness, we should be dressing well and modestly as the scripture states, anything else should be reserved between a man and woman in wedlock.

  63. Doz,

    It may be true that immodest clothing may lead to temptation but this is not a exegesis of the Genesis passage on the issue of Adam and Eve’s nakedness.

    There are very few scriptural references that specifically prescribes what ‘bits’ we should be covering up or not. We must be careful to separate Western concepts of indecency from the Biblical principle of being loving to our brother (or sister) and not causing them to stumble.

    Your are drawing a long Scriptural bow to say exposing breasts is ‘wrong’ as much as uncovered hair is ‘right’.

  64. Hmmm… the issue of modesty and culture. I agree very much with RE on this one.

    In a culture that regards baring breasts as the cultural norm, as wazza pointed out re hair covering, to cover their breasts could actually draw attention to something that no one thought twice about otherwise.

    This is a case where I think if they cover up, they would do so primarily for the sake of their Western brother’s cultural sensitivities when they visit, rather than need to change their own cultural concept of modesty.

    The sad thing is that the Western culture might end up affecting their notions of modesty, and steal their freedom in that respect.

    I had two friends (married) who were thrown out of a Christian church for nude sun-bathing at a nudist beach. They’ve never been physically self conscious people, and they are not exhibitionists. I don’t think they did anything wrong, knowing them and their background. However, their church felt very strongly about it.

  65. Oh Rave, cmon, you know as well as i do the Word only needs to state one scripture which remains unchallenged and is consistent with all other scripture for it to be established as a doctrine.Are you telling me that a womans breasts is not classed as nudity Biblically? and yes i agree we must look at culture absolutely, thats what im going to do right now, look at God’s culture in His chosen people.

    in determining what ‘nakedness’ is according to God we need to first look at the first instance of the word ‘clothed’ God made ‘coats’ Hebrew: a shirt, coat, garment, robe. Not a ‘skirt’, not pants, not shorts, thus the top part of both man and woman was clothed down to the bottom, from other scriptures this would be about just above the ankle and in some instances just above the knee, though the knee height i can only find for men not women. Secondly we need to look at the dressing habits of those who have in Biblical History served God acceptably. The Jews are a good example of such, we also need to look at the attire of the levites and the priests because God spoke a number of times about covering their nakedness, and he also had say in the actual designs. When you do your research you will find they were well covered (both average Jew male and female as well as Priest and Levite).

    so tell me is my scriptural bow long enough? and i think you knwo the context of my comments i have tried my hardest to add them, these are petty things and living in a sin cursed world we cant much escape them howvere, my dress sense changed as i grew in christ, from ripped tight jeans to less bits hanging out, in the same way we also see a womans breasts in two scriptural settings which we all do well to take note of, 1) feeding young, and 2) sexual use with a husband (geeeze now youve got me going R rated, hope your all having a great laugh at my posts..no doubts lol) being the sexual side a minister should no matter what culture teach people the Bible and the acceptable dress the Lord would have them in, facilitate for them to have such clothing, as Jesus Christ becomes the dominant culture of ones life far above the culture of their race, please go back to my post to put the implimentation of such into proper context.

  66. their church felt very strongly about it? beleive me, if anyone comments otherwise on what im about to say i fear your conscience is seared with a hot iron and theres nothing i can do for you but pray. I have just about seen it all in ministry, including ‘christians’ that have done such things, God doesnt want us to do that stuff, and i would explain it to them too, as far as kicking them out, i doubt that that would have happened without their objections to the ministers good scriptural guidance as to how and what christians should be doing.

  67. Doz,

    The basis of your argument is based on

    1) The definition of a Hebrew word to describe a attire that was both pre-Israelite and pre-Mosaic.

    2) Our understanding of Levitical priestly attire from Biblical descriptions

    3) The sacredness of particular parts of the body to a spouse

    I don’t think this equates with a Scriptural prescription.

    Whether a Christian women wears a grass skirt or Burqa (which by the way predates Islamic tradition) is one of cultural appropriateness. Scripture suggest they are free to do either or neither as long they consider the impact on those around them.

    The one thing I agree with you is that our culture should be informed by Scripture and not the other way round.

  68. Song of Songs covers a range of body parts cherished by the lover and her beloved. Should they all be covered up?

  69. you quoted

    Scripture suggest they are free to do either or neither as long they consider the impact on those around them.

    ?????????? your kidding right???? some how i dont think so, my look at the word as well as the levitical Priestly attire is in direct reference to the word ‘naked’ used by God Himself, thus the way they were attired is a direct clothing of what the Bible terms as ‘naked’ your completely outdone on this one my friend, but seeing your not joking or at least i really dont think you are enjoy your beleifs they arent scriptural, show me Bible as i have done for you, show me scripture that goes above nakedness, clothed, cloth, and more from the Bible.

  70. Would the outfit that you are wearing be appropriate to serve in an Ancient Hebrew temple? Should we all wear the same Levitical priestly garments?

    Would a Pacific Islander and a person from the Middle East agree on what was the appropriate level of clothing for modesty?

    If either walked into your church would you accuse one of being scandalous and the other legalistic?

  71. lets see how humble you are in your debate, when debating this is usually where i will end up with those unteachable and proud, im looking for your comments on the following then mine usually stop depending on which way you go when i know ive beaten you scripturally and the debate has come down to impeding on ones chosen beleifs but not scripturally verified, in fact opposed, you quoted:The basis of your argument is based on

    1) The definition of a Hebrew word to describe a attire that was both pre-Israelite and pre-Mosaic.

    Penned by Moses? have you forgotten. do you also not realize that Adam to whom this was done being first hand witnesser of lived 930 years and ran into Noah’s lifetime, Noah then lived 950 years and ran into Abrahams time, thus preIsraelite was only 3 generations Adam told Noah first hand, Noah told Abram first hand. your way out of your league on this one my friend.

    you quoted

    2) Our understanding of Levitical priestly attire from Biblical descriptions

    you obviously havent researched the word ‘nakedness’ refer to my previous comments in the earlier post.

    you quoted:

    Whether a Christian women wears a grass skirt or Burqa (which by the way predates Islamic tradition) is one of cultural appropriateness.

    Islam 600AD articles of faith were supposedly penned, in your comment you have answered yourself, the Burqa predates Islam thus it came from where??? earlier traditions, where and who are the Islamic people majority speaking? Ishmael and Esau, children of who and where did they receive such culture from??? no doubts Abraham, this isnt even a needed argument the very use of the simple intepretation of scripture for what God classes as naked is enough.

    you quoted:

    Scripture suggest they are free to do either or neither as long they consider the impact on those around them.

    you reprove me for my evidence which is a blessing to all who read, i know if i wasnt aware of such and i read such a post i would be blessed and thankful for such opening my eyes to what God thinks on the subject. but of your quote you have :

    1) No scrptural evidence.

    2) No scriptural evidence.

    3) No scriptural evidence.

    what say ye about this?

  72. “show me Bible as i have done for you, show me scripture that goes above nakedness, clothed, cloth, and more from the Bible.”

    Doz. Have you considered that if God knows every hair on your head, he also knows the size of your genitals?

    He can see right through the High Priests clothes. He made their bodies just like he made yours! And frankly, God does not care if we are clothed or naked before Him unless it carries spiritual meaning as it did to the church in Revelations (Ledoucia?). They bragged they were clothed and God accused them of being spiritually naked. Now that’s something to be more worried about then physical clothing.

    The reason why he would have clothed Adam and Eve (part from the prophetic sense), it was to protect the two from each other now that sin had entered in to creation. Shame, fear, vulnerability, lust and judgment would have been horrible feelings for Adam and Eve to deal with.

    I would say they felt violated by Satan when God said to them ‘Who said you were naked?’

    If RP’s two female friends were not bought up in shame about their bodies and openly revealed themselves at a nudist camp, then why would God feel ashamed about them?

    In relation to the gospel, the gospel is for those who know not Jewish Law. They were outside of that Covenant of Law. And if God’s Spirit is dwelling within these two women, then may they be led to conviction if they are going to nudists camps for secret motives.

  73. The women are also in an environment where they know they would not cause men to stumble because of the place they choose to be themselves.

    They are trying to be biblical and are careful in how they come across to men in the common church environment. Is this not biblical and a nice thing for them to do? Is this not what Paul encourages? Not to cause your brother weaker in the faith to stumble?

  74. Raving Evangelical Says:

    November 28, 2009 at 10:32 pm
    Would the outfit that you are wearing be appropriate to serve in an Ancient Hebrew temple? Should we all wear the same Levitical priestly garments?

    Would a Pacific Islander and a person from the Middle East agree on what was the appropriate level of clothing for modesty?

    If either walked into your church would you accuse one of being scandalous and the other legalistic?

    now your ducking for cover, its a normal response, ask another question that digresses the subject, you are very aware of my comments, they have nothing to do with the context you are now refering to, you know very well that i have included culture in my comments and my comments have been very generous regarding time frame and dressing so as not to offend, but if you so desire that i comment further i wll grace you until a moderator jumps in and calms things down.

    a Christian should wear the cultural attire IF those who are hearing the Gospel would normally be offended at such, however, not if this compromises what the Bible deems as nakedness. you will also find that cultures are quite respectful and unoffended at your dress.

    the garments that i spoke of were to facilitate our understanding of what is deemed as ‘covering’ nakedness not the actual dress, but ive also made that clear.

    a pacific islander and one in the middle east may not agree, but the topic at hand is what the Bible states not cultural views, we are looking at the acceptable culture of the Bible, but you know that.

    either have walked into my church and they are loved, we focus on bringing them to christ without judgement because we dont care, howvere, the subject we are discussing is Christianity and what is appropriate for learned maturing christians, and as i stated before i now state again there would need to come a time where we speak with the people about putting more on as is proper according to scripture, if legalism were an issue in the mind of the person we would also work with them, i have ministered to and have some wonderful leaders who have come out of all sorts, one woman never cut or dyed her hair, as she was taught incorrect doctrine on the matter, she has since done so as the Spirit of God led me to speak with her gently and lovingly and as i went through her denomnations little book of doctrines regarding such. it was upon her seeing what the Bible said that her faith responded to such,

    my friend i pray you concede your points

  75. Specks yes your post is correct, but the context is not refering to God seeing us it is referring to how we interact with each other.

  76. Doz,

    When engaging in discussion I would also be careful not to create a ‘straw man’ or ad hominem debate.

    Never here have I advocated a libertarian or indulgent lifestyle. I am also finding your tone to be offensive.

    If as you say that OT traditions should strongly guide up to levels of modern attire, how do you know what you are wearing now would be acceptable to those living in that time?

  77. Secret motives or not the Bible teaches correct behaviour as becomes saints, your post goes off about things im not talking about, the simple issue here is ‘What God terms as Naked’, ‘How He wants us to dress’ and ‘working with cultures who have converted to Christ in order to bring them into Biblical culture’
    what i see is some people seriously arguing for nakedness, behaviour that doesnt become saints and God deosnt care about what we wera garbage, im standing up for Jesus here and if you knew me youd know that if there were a thousand of you at my door screaming to kill me over this id be toe to toe with you rebukng the devil and praying for God to intervene. Im on fire man and unafraid and I will stand up for what those who proclaim to be born again know in their spirit consciously grrrrrrrrr

  78. No back foot Rave, no new questions wheres your Bible??????? your offence is your choice, you posted i answered, me personally im never offended at the Word but its your choice, and why dont you as a Christian have any clue for what is appropriate attire as a christian disgrace.

  79. This is my review of the thread so far….

    It diverged because Wazza2 asked what should be done when two sincere Christians have differing scriptural interpretations.

    He gave a specific example of a women in Church covering their heads. You replied with the example of a Romanian Church you knew and then an anecdote about the behaviour of some semi-naked villagers being visited it on by a Bishop.

    I then asked about the significance of ‘nakedness’ in the Genesis account of the fall to which SpecksandPlanks made the first expository reply.

    Interestingly the Genesis description talks about Adam and Eve covering themselves and hiding from God, more than hiding from each other. The shame focused on their relationship with God rather than between themselves.

    Later their temporary fig clothes get replaced by other garments that God makes. There is no description of the extent of the former or the latter. There is also no suggestion in the passage that this offers a permanent loss of shame they have before God but it clearly has great symbolism about the changed status they now have before him.

  80. Doz,

    You have made some large assumptions here. I have a good idea about what is appropriate in my church and the society that I live in and I dress accordingly. However, I am not so quick to impose my standards on a completely different cultural setting without understanding a little more about it. We are trying to win people to Christ not our fashion sense.

  81. im not arguing back and forth, it doesnt matter where it went to i made comments you argued against them i clarified them you then had more of a go without scripture, i challenged you, you tried to digress, i asked for scripture, you asked another question and then dropped the ‘im offended line’ you obvioulsy dont know me and thats fine, but this is what i do for a living, i tear down stupid unscriptural views diplomatically at first then i expose the sillyness of people who are beaten and dont wnat to admit it, my comments have been clear, biblical, educational and a blessing, i get paid for the stuff i freely give to you, and you know my comments and the truth of them, as a debater i see the exact same responses from others, all the time, no more posts, commit yourself to the Lord 2 Tim 4:3 this is why discipleship is so important get under a Bible teacher in a church and start learnign the Word and doing Christianity humbly,have a nice day.

  82. Doz , you are argumentative, you are a trouble maker just piss off, sorry to be so blunt, but that is my way. To me you sound like a little JOhnny Howard the only minority you didn’t mention were commies.

  83. typical responses from unchangeable unteachable, unscriptural people who claim faith in Christ and yet fail to even agree with basic sunday school doctrines, what a sad state our country is in and i am committed to exposing it and changing it. You have nothing scriptural to say so you start to swear and curse, because you are so angry with Jesus’s words, i know it is your way MJ cos its your spiritual fathers way, and if the Spirit of God is in you then repent as a start to prove it, but my money’s on your pride being Lord, so surprise me. So far ive heard from you that you will compromise your faith to feed your family, and more, i wonder if Ravepente thinks the same about me, i wonder if theres a scriptural bone on this forum, a heart of truth that seeks truth, actually lets take a vote on getting rid of me from this forum altogether, what do the moderators say of such, want me to go? or want me to stay?

  84. Genesis 3:6-10

    When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

    Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”

    He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

    Gen 3:21-24

    The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

    Exegetical summary:

    – Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge
    – Their eyes were opened and saw their nakedness.
    – They made fig leaf coverings
    – God looked for them and found them hiding amongst trees (?camouflage)
    – God ask why they were hiding
    – Adam replied because they were ** afraid of God **
    – (later God curses both of them and the serpent)
    – God makes separate distinctive garments
    – God banishes them from the Garden and they are banned from the tree of life

    What the passage does not describe:

    – what Adam and Eve thought of each other’s naked appearance
    – the experience of lust or sexual temptation (no other humans in existence up to that time)
    – the extent of the fig leaf coverings
    – the type of garments that God made them
    – that clothing alters their shame or guilt before God. (Restoration must come from another means)

    The fact that God made clothes made for them suggests he wanted to remind them strongly of the irrevocable actions of that historic moment when they rebelled against God’s command.

    It is not apparent from the passage that there is a prescription of appropriate fashion or attire.

  85. My apologies to all for getting worked up and Doz my apologies for swearing but that’s how worked up I get about God.

    It really doesnt bother me what you think of me only what God thinks. My authority is Jesus and His greatest commandment instruction was “Love thy Neighbour” so with all due respect I wish you well but I don’t have to agree with you.

  86. Rave youd make a good politician but you know that we are discussing how much is to be covered not fashion or what to wear, anyhow im looking for votes in favour of stating that my discussion is scrptural and right and whether i am invited to continue or whether i am being asked to ‘p#### off’.

  87. In regards to compromising my faith it is actually against the law to enforce your faith on a client. Its called, in hospitals, duty of care.

    So its a moot point Doz. Are we not supposed to obey the laws of the land, render to caesar etc?

    Mercy Ministries is a good example of the law in action otherwise we could all be under subjective and cruel legalistic religious laws such as Sharia or Pentecostal.

  88. Doz,

    I am inviting you to go back to the original text and letting it speak for itself.

    You may have a very specific view on should be covered up but I can’t find it in the passage.

    2 Corinthians 2:1-5 alludes to the Genesis account and is also illuminating:

    “Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.”

    It seems that whatever earthly garments that God made are not enough for we still ‘groan’ for heavenly ones so that we may not be found ‘naked’. It appears that we somehow are still naked despite the clothing we wear.

    Later in Revelations 7:15

    “And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.”

    And finally Revelations 22:14

    “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

    We have come full circle. The nakedness after the fall. The temporary earthly garments God made for us. The banishment from the tree of life and the Garden. The heavenly clothing that we need to truly cover our nakedness. Finally, the robes washed by Christ’s blood and the faithful given permission to reenter God’s dwelling.

  89. RE makes a strong case, actually, Doz. I don’t see how you can dogmatically insist on old covenant clothing standards under the new covenant. Adam and Eve were cursed. We’re redeemed, not to live immodestly, or provocatively, but we are, nevertheless free from the constrictions of law. All things are now lawfu, but it’s the expedience of our lifestyle we need to consider.

    We minister in Indigenous communities where a completely different understanding of nakedness exists. Impressing legalism on those who have no issue with nakedness, in terms of dress sense, is a distraction to the more weighty matters needed to bring a breakout from negative spiritual influences.
    _______________________________________

    mj, it’s a real eye opener to see you in a action when you’re upset! I never realised you view Pentecostalism in exactly the same light as Shariah, as cruel, legalistic religious law systems. An eye-opener indeed. Especially in view of Jesus’ command to wait until the Day of Pentecost before going anywhere.

    Perhaps you’d like to encourage another thread were this is discussed, because I’d love to see your evidence of this.

  90. We have come full circle. The nakedness after the fall. The temporary earthly garments God made for us. The banishment from the tree of life and the Garden. The heavenly clothing that we need to truly cover our nakedness. Finally, the robes washed by Christ’s blood and the faithful given permission to reenter God’s dwelling.

    – RE

    Great comment RE. The linking of the clothing of Adam and Eve to our being clothed at the end of the age and not being found naked seem like an important find that I am keen to ponder over time. Thank you.

    I offer that when Father made the clothes for A&E it was not so much to point their sin out to them (how could they not remember it every day of their lives?) as it was a promise that he would in fact clothe their nakedness and ours at the end of the age.

  91. Good point H1. The clothes he makes is an act of grace because he knew how terrible they felt now they were naked.

  92. This is great. I also love that conclusion, RE; its something that now you have pointed it out seems obvious, but I’d never thought about it before – and the next conclusions that you and Heretic have come to:

    …The linking of the clothing of Adam and Eve to our being clothed at the end of the age and not being found naked …when Father made the clothes for A&E … it was a promise that he would in fact clothe their nakedness and ours at the end of the age.

    This is wonderful, and I will also reflect on it further. Great to see what can come out of a discussion on an apparently (not so) simple subject like what does the Bible say about modesty.

    *********
    Doz, I’m afraid that I still agree with RE’s argument on this; I cannot see anything in scripture that you have shown us which convinces me that we must cover up in a particular way, although we are told as women to dress modestly.

    Just to clear a few things up – my friends at the nudist beach were a married couple – a man and his wife there together in an environment where nudity was officially allowed. Certainly not at church, or in a shopping mall, or wandering down the road.

    Secondly – Doz – we don’t censor this blog. We have only had to ask one person to please not comment here further, and that decision took us many months. As a group we hold diverse views on various issues; we attend a variety of churches; most of us have spent time in or are still in Pentecostal churches, but some of us now attend other evangelical churches; we all have in common a deep commitment to Jesus Christ and a deep concern about certain issues affecting the church at large. We welcome people here who wish to discuss these things; we also debate other current topical issues that arise from our conversations or in the news.

    What is the fruit of this?

    In my own life, a sharpening of iron – as you referred to previously somewhere. I’ve noticed I’m far more equipped these days when I’m put on the spot in the rest of my life about just about any scriptural topic. Plus practice in listening and hearing what other people have to say. Often in face to face discussions everyone is so keen to share their view, including myself, that we don’t and can’t possibly fully hear everyone else’s view the way we get to here.

    We aren’t really here with the aim of debating people and ‘beating’ them. We are here to learn from debate, which is not the same thing. ‘Beating’ implies a winner and a loser; a very confrontational attitude. Yes, debates do become heated at times, and we are very used to that. However, I’m not sure that God wants us to approach scripture with the attitude of beating or defeating someone. How about persuading or convincing someone? That is quite different, and I think the distinction is important. God sees our hearts, and our attitude to this in Him is a fruit of the Spirit. I believe that if we view the debate of scripture as a matter of beating people, then we risk becoming proud if we have many apparent victories. And I say apparent, because a beaten man is not a convince or persuaded man, and the victory is not real.

  93. Doz: “when i know ive beaten you scripturally”

    Your words give you away – quite simply it’s not all about you Doz, or beating people over the head with what you understand.

    You can stay or go – but you might learn a little humility.

    All I can see is someone in your own words wants to “sharpen their sword” so he can be right. The truth – whatever that maybe is not relevant – except for to be right and the bragging rights that go with it.

    Chew on this fax man – ya can’t add up:

    do you also not realize that Adam to whom this was done being first hand witnesser of lived 930 years and ran into Noah’s lifetime, Noah then lived 950 years and ran into Abrahams time, thus preIsraelite was only 3 generations Adam told Noah first hand, Noah told Abram first hand. your way out of your league on this one my friend.

    Try again – when you can add up.

    You may or may not know Christ – I, unlike you do not presume to judge, but haven’t exhibited much love or grace on this site.

    And I don’t like being used by so-called brethren…

  94. but you haven’t exhibited much love or grace on this site….in the short time you’ve been here.

    And don’t try and put the one on about sharing scripture with us so we can be lead in the paths of righteousness in terms of showing love and grace – cause its not, and you haven’t!

  95. Going from RE’s comment, it is indeed the Holy Spirit that clothes us. He clothes us in gentleness and kindness. And Paul says that we are now clothed in immortality so that we may die but live on. (Did I say that right.)

    One a-biblical text that I like is the Book of Jasher. Adam and Eve’s garments are passed down through Noah, through Nimrod, from Abraham to supposedly to Ishmael (or was it Esau?). These sacred garments carried the power of God which made me smile as they were sought after by kings and men who desired the power of God.

    Through the eyes of the New Testament, we are clothed with the Power From on High and are clothed by His Presence and Spirit. Kings should be desiring the heavenly garments Father has wrapped us in.

    More food for thought! 😀

  96. …this is what i do for a living, i tear down stupid unscriptural views diplomatically at first then i expose the sillyness of people who are beaten and dont wnat to admit it, my comments have been clear, biblical, educational and a blessing, i get paid for the stuff i freely give to you

    – Doz

    This gives the impression that we should know that your contribution is of more value than the contribution of another person who does not get paid? Plus where we cannot ‘beat’ you on your terms, our arguments are deemed ‘stupid’. That may well be so.

    It also gives the impression that you deliberately choose to start with the gloves on, then at some point you remove them – the fight analogy is your own.

    Perhaps we are the scripturally poor that you are being charitable to – that is how your comments read.

    You are an apostle choosing to blessing us on this site with your greater insight. I’m not being sarcastic here – I’m just repeating exactly what I understand from what you have posted. I hope everyone here has read that you are an apostle – I have no objection to the term as you have been sent out to plant churches. We’ve never had an apostle visit us here before.

    God bless you, Doz. May you find your way.

    Matt 5:3

    ” 3″(D)Blessed are the poor in spirit, for (E)theirs is the kingdom of heaven. ”

    And Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 4:

    3But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.

    4For I (D)am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this (E)acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.

    5Therefore (F)do not go on passing judgment before [a]the time, but wait (G)until the Lord comes who will both (H)bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s (I)praise will come to him from God.

  97. Good exegetical interpretation and understanding Biblical theology is critical in understanding scripture.

    Jumping from verse to doctrine and then back again can only be fraught with trouble.

    There can be a temptation to immediately want to work out what the passage means to us. Having done so then invoke the same meaning to the original audience.

    It needs to be the other way round.

  98. May God bless you DOZ, but your energy (what drive’s you) seems very bad. You might be right, but what drives you isnt from a place of Peace or Rest. I hope that one day you just stop and enjoy the Father embrace.

  99. Mark Connor is absolutely wrong.

    He is just another of those “hirelings” who lack godliness.

    Pastor Danny Nahliah at least had a dream about the judgement before it happened.

    I am a christian for 49 years and I agree with Brother Nahlia. The “killing of unborn babies” is bringing judgement to Victoria.

    Christians in Vitoria should repent and pray for Victoria and Australia.

  100. Simon Peter was one of the twelves apostles and he wrote a few books contained in the Bible. He also lived as a Christian for a number of years before being martyred. He wrote this:

    “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”

    As regards to how we obtain righteousness (avoid judgment) the Romans epistle had a lot non-conventional) things to say about that.

  101. Reuel, I challenge you to attempt to place a critical remark on Danny’s site. I went here and tried positive criticism, and was refused a voice, my comments rejected. He will not receive even friendly criticism face to face. When I tested the waters by saying something positive, my comment was accepted.

    This tells us that he is being selective about who is permitted to comment about his prophecies, which in itself is disappointing.

    Can you tell me what people should think of his prophecy that Peter Costello would be the next Prime Minister after John Howard?

    Then, when Costello didn’t stand as Liberal leader, Nahlia said that it was we Christians who were at fault for his prophecy failing. I know many Christians who backed his prophecy, and did pray. He isn’t big enough to admit he was wrong. Rather he blamed others for his failings. No, he should repent.

    Then he compounds his error with a claim that he dreamed that God would judge Victoria for the abortion laws. Well, one day God will judge all for their sins and his wrath will be revealed, but we are in the age of grace, and his long-suffering. He will pour out his indignation, but not with the bush fires of last year. The people in the area know the risks of living there. Nevertheless, they deserve our support and help, not this kind of criticism. It damages our witness for Dahlia to be so wrong. He should repent.

    Nahlia’s claim of God’s vengeance on those people was a cruel statement, an opportune grasp at the limelight. If you study his ‘dream’ you will see the flaws when matched with the events.

    I wonder what he has been saying, and what you believe, about the earthquakes in Haiti, and now Chile?

    Are you in the same club as those who say this is God’s judgement? Jesus said this was the beginning of troubles, not God’s wrath. That will come later, after the Church has been removed from the earth. Read your Bible! We live in New Testament times, not the Old.

    Mark Conner was correct to rebuke him. I put up the article above, and stand by what was said. Nahlia is the one who should publicly repent.

  102. i myself have looked into this and I believe Danny.I believe he was right though I agree that we must be careful on how we approach this.I believe that it really could be judgement from God because a month aver the abortion laws were set( the on that says that a baby of so and so months can be killed at a certain age.) the bush fires came I personally don’t think that was a coincidence.By anything I have said here I mean absolutely no offense what so ever.Yours sincerely Sophia

  103. Danny was wrong, Sophia. Think about it. It is easy to falsely align a disaster with God’s wrath after the event. So-called prophets have done so for a long time. It gives them some kind of credibility amongst the gullible, religious and fearful.

    However, anyone who actually takes note of what New Testament scripture says will know in an instant that God did not set Victoria alight.

    The unfortunate people who lost homes and lives were in a known high fire risk zone. It could have happened anytime.

    It was not God.

    There will be a reckoning for unjust abortion laws, and for every wrongly terminated human, but not like this.

  104. So why doesn’t God smite the heathen godless countries around the world? He must be happy with the Sudan, Iran, North Korea but pissed off with Victoria or Australia who has an atheist PM (like no other country has).

    Yeah that theology makes a lot of sense.

    Do yourself a favour and read about the Great Lisbon Earthquake in 1755. Happened as all the churches were packed with worshippers. The churches caved in on them, then tsunamis and fire engulfed them. The brothels and red light areas were untouched.

    Many Christians (including the philosopher Voltaire) lost their faith in God over this.

    http://forum.stirpes.net/history/21557-great-lisbon-earthquake-1-november-1755-a.html

    I suppose the Holocaust was God’s judgement on the Jews, the San Francisco earthquake God’s judgement on San Francisco, the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami God’s judgment against Japan, Qld floods God’s judgment on Qld yada yada yada

    Fact is sh*t happens, always has, always will.

    Romans 8:38-39

  105. Signs of false cultish leaders:
    1.Dont submit their “revelations to senior leadership in the larger Body of Christ respected for their longevity.
    2.Proclaim to have “special revelation” others in the larger Body of Christ do not have.
    3.Draw people to themselves –
    4.Have either a “Messianic or persecution complex” to draw
    sympathy and support from gullible people.
    5.Like clouds without water –
    6.Suggest all Christians read Pastor Frank Damazios books that will help enrich and discern the “last days phenomena within the Body not outside it”

  106. Danny has used his gift of discernment and knowlege of Islam to solve this woman’s disappearance.


    THE husband and friends of an Iranian woman missing in Victoria since December 16 fear she has been abducted by Muslim hardliners because of her attempts to convert Muslims to Christianity.

    Yesterday, Mr Ahmadi said he thought abduction was most likely. ”It is 25 days now. It is so painful. My heart and my brain are frozen,” he said.

    An Oakleigh police officer confirmed police were investigating her disappearance, and confirmed one possibility was abduction by Islamic militants. ”We are treating it as a missing person inquiry but are investigating other possibilities,” the officer said.

    Islam, strictly interpreted, mandates death for adults who leave the religion, and there are many cases of Iranian converts being killed, in Iran and Europe. While there are a few accounts of Muslims who converted being beaten in Australia, there have been no reports of abductions. Mr Ahmadi said his wife had twice gone away for a few days to escape pressures, but had told her family.

    Pastor Danny Nalliah of Catch the Fire Ministries yesterday sent an email to his mailing list calling for ”urgent prayer” for Mandi and the family. He said he had known the family for eight years and they took a leading role in helping Muslim asylum seekers.

    Mr Nalliah and the ministries were the subject of a complaint they vilified Muslims in a 2002 seminar on jihad, which was upheld by the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal but reversed by the Supreme Court.

    Yesterday he told the Herald Mrs Ahmadi ”really stuck her neck out” trying to convert Muslims and her husband was sometimes very worried for her. He said her zeal had come to the attention of militants, possibly in Iran itself.

    Mandi Ahmadi disappeared from her home on the afternoon of December 16, taking her phone but leaving her handbag, money and credit cards. Her family have heard nothing since.

    The Ahmadis, refugees from Iran, arrived in Australia in 1999. Both were Muslim but Mrs Ahmadi converted to Christianity five years ago and her husband, Nathan, a year later. They co-founded an agency with the Cornerstone church in Dandenong to help refugees.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/religious-abduction-fears-for-woman-20120110-1pthm.html#ixzz1jP44BGdv

  107. Nope surprise, surprise. Danny Nalliah appears to be wrong.

    This is what happens when religious leaders are not held accountable.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/wife-murder-charge-after-backyard-find/story-e6frg6nf-1226243983572

    FOR the past month, Nasir Ahmadi has been urging friends and family to pray for the safety of his wife, who has not been seen or heard from since she disappeared from their Melbourne home.
    According to Victoria Police, Mr Ahmadi knew all along where she was.

    Late yesterday, the 48-year-old Iranian refugee appeared in a small, windowless room beneath the Melbourne Remand Centre, where he was charged with murdering his wife, Zahara Rahimzadegan.

    Homicide detective Ron Iddles told a bail justice Mr Ahmadi had made “full admissions in relation to this offence” to police.

    Mr Ahmadi, who has adopted the western name Nathan, said little in the brief hearing, other than that he loved his wife, and she was now dead.

    Only a few hours earlier, police had unearthed her body in a makeshift grave beneath a newly constructed deck in the backyard of the Ashwood unit they shared in the city’s southeast with their two sons, aged 11 and 15.

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