March of the Muslims/End times

Seeing as I’m now an author here I thought I would post up this tape recording of a sermon given by my Grandfather sometime in the 1980s (he passed away 20 years ago but I think it’s still relevant today). I tried posting it at my usual favourite end times sites http://www.rr-bb.com and http://www.prophecyfellowship.com but they wouldn’t allow it as they are cessationists regarding gifts of the spirit. But now that I have authoring privileges here (the rush of power has gone to my head and I am posting it up here, ha, ha, sorry).

Anyway here it is. It is called March of the Muslims. His basic synopsis as I understand it is that the Islamic extremist problem is some type of punishment/discipline for Christians rejecting the gifts of the spirit. I know that might sound extreme to some people but personally having known the man in person I take what he says seriously. (OK we all hero worship our grandfathers – but he really was a man of God – as we all should be I guess. He was one of those people who if you knew him, it sort of made God more real to you – it’s hard to explain. I guess I’m saying we often first know Christ by dealing with other people who already know him, and my Grandfather was one of those people for me. I respected him greatly so take seriously stuff I find from him like this – but feel free to be cynical, critical etc regarding the message as that is this forums style of course). I think it’s worth posting though so I am. So for cynics and believers alike here it is.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5720930510415160958

(Some background info. My Grandfather nearly died of sickness at age 40 and promised God that if he recovered he would spend the rest of his life witnessing to Jews – don’t ask me why but he did. He did recover and spent the rest of his life working for Jewish Evangelical Witness in Queensland. He was also big on preaching as a visiting speaker on the “end times” (and no he didn’t collect money after the sermon as far as I am aware – unlike today). He was pre-millennial (as am I) and was not into replacement theology – so he was whatever the label for the opposite of replacement theology is – i.e. the church is a mystery – to the Old Testament Jews – which fits into the gap between the 69th week of Daniel (when the messiah is cut off – i.e. crucified) and the 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week of Daniel being the great tribulation and also the time when Israel – (or at least the 144,000 of them) return to Christ as a nation and fulfil God’s plan for them to be a missionary nation. My Grandfather wasn’t decided on the pre-trib post-trib issue. Personally I’m a firm believer in the pre-trib rapture).

Some of you probably wander what all this has to do with CCC and WoF which are the more usual topic of this site. Well in my mind I see it as being related, as I see churches like CCCOF, WoF, the Apostolic movement etc (as I alluded to in another post) as being the end-time church of Laodicea (the un-raptured remanent of which I suspect will probably turn into or at least contribute to being the whore/religious system of Revelation, which helps the beast/AC rise to power but is ultimately destroyed by him).

(It’s hard to talk about the “end-times” without sounding like some schizo/paranoid/conspiracy theorist nut job. Oh well. It is a pretty main stream belief/interpretation of scripture though. Hope RP doesn’t regret giving me authoring powers. And for the record I don’t believe in the Illuminati/Club of Rome etc, humans just aren’t that smart or co-operative or that good at keeping a secret – but I do think there are conspiracies a foot in the spiritual realm – which God allows to fulfil his plan as per his revelation to us in the book of Revelation).

(One other thing for what its worth he was also convinced the AC was Assyrain).


22 thoughts on “March of the Muslims/End times

  1. I’ve listened to half the preach, pheonix. He’s a pretty good speaker – I can imagine he would have had a lot of presence as a family member. Am looking forward to listening to the next half tomorrow. Its an interesting case he makes, especially listening to the message 20 years later.

  2. Yeah he did πŸ™‚ he was a great Grandfather figure. I most appreciate the understanding of end-times theology he gave me (I mean you can live without it quite happily I think, but its nice to see how it all fits together – a large chunk of the bible does talk about it after all).

  3. “One other thing for what its worth he was also convinced the AC was Assyrain”

    Do you know why he thought this? Does this make the AC Turkish? (Anyway surely the AC would come from DC :).

  4. Oh just some bible verses – I started this thread so I guess I’ll go look them up – tommorrow Sat though – bit tired right now Fri night after my first week back at full time work (after year unemployed – my days of surfing the net all day now over).

  5. Congrats on finding a new job in this current climate, phoenix. Were you studying, or looking for work last year? (Don’t answer if its too personal a question.)

    I still have to listen to the second half – this has been quite a week for me, and I’m not even talking about the recent events on the blog. I’m looking forward to it.

  6. Haven’t listened to the sermon.

    Hope to get time to do so on the weekend.

    Anyway, the connections between WOF, NAR and dominionist thinking (i.e. well dodgy eschatology) are well known.

    The basic wrong idea is that the Church takes dominion of the world _before_ Jesus returns.

    Wrong.

    Jesus promised that:
    There will be a great falling away.
    The love of MOST will grow cold.
    THEN the Gospel will be preached to all the Nations.

    When Jesus is back here, there will be no need to preach the Gospel.

    The other wrong thinking of Willow Creek/New Apostolic Reformation types is that you can be one faith community with Muslims.

    To do that you end up giving up on Jesus Deity, the crucifixion, the resurrection, and therefore Salvation. Because there is now no more forgiveness of Sins.

    Have nothing to do with NAR false apostles and prophets. You have been saved. You have a direct line to God. Don’t listen to false prophets that say “peace, Peace” when there is no peace.

    Persecution of the true church is coming, and in the UK is already here. It’s just that most of us don’t recognise the warning signs yet.

    Shalom.

  7. Talking about getting around to things. I will talk about my take on the Assyrian bit and other stuff to do with end-times theology when I get a chance, probably Tues evening.

    It sounds like such a small thing whether you believe church takes dominion before (or in order for) Jesus can come back or whether God does it supernaturally (as per more literal take on Revelation – which I will go into on Tues).

    In my opinion though this apparently minor difference actually makes a big difference in how churches act and possibly even is responsible for many of the excesses of the New Apostolic types etc (e.g. we need lots and lots of money so we can take the world over – Christian needs to be rich and prosperous so we can rule – so we need to beat people about the head at church to extract their money from them etc).


    Yes RP I was studying doing a Physics PhD (my mid-life crisis I guess – I had a great job but gave it up for the PhD). Started in 2001 but ran out of scholarship money by end of 2004. Thought I was onto something big (still do – pity I can’t explain it to anyone) so possibly bit of more than I could chew.

    Always thought I was 6 months from finishing (and had to convince uni authorities I was) but somehow didn’t submit until early 2008 (despite regular dire 6 monthly warning letters).

    Still haven’t heard back from the examiners a year latter now (despite the fact my uni normally supposedly only gives them 8 weeks to mark). The reports will be back soon apparently, despite two examiners protestations they still need more time.

    Anyway I probably averaged 3 – 5k per year in earnings from tutoring last 3 years (early draw on super funds, massive credit card did, dumping debt onto house loan, finally selling my share of a house I owned etc – finally moved back home with parents 1 year ago) enabled me to survive – my own circumstances are perhaps a microcosm of what got the US into such trouble.

    I was highly stressed at the time but always had enough to eat and more, couldn’t really complain (in hindsight I regret not trusting God more). Now I got a job which is fantastic, so happy.

  8. I just found the explanation of the Assyrian at about the 50 minute mark. It is from Isaiah 10.

    V 27 “And it hath come to pass, in that day, Turned is his burden from off thy shoulder, And his yoke from off thy neck, And destroyed hath been the yoke, because of prosperity.”

    This comes after the talk of the Assyrian and “in that day” refers to the day of the lord so the conclusion is that that the yoke in question belongs to the Assyrian and the Assyrian is overcome at the day of the lord so the AC must be the Assyrian.

    Another view might be that God’s yoke is removed from Israel “in that day” when Jesus comes and proclaims the year of Jubilee.

    One’s interpretation might turn on whether you place verses 26-32 in the O.T. historical context or Jesus time. I tend to think that the good news is in chapters 10-11 is mostly about Jesus first coming (not that I am an expert in the area at all).

  9. Thanks for this article Phoenix. I was particularly struck by the thoughts about why God would raise the Muslims up over the centuries. The conclusions ring true and are consistent with the scriptures about why Father did these things in the past.

    It makes me want to go back to Daniel and Revelation all over again which I must do some day – earlier if you bring the subjects up sooner.

    It also brings back memories of going up to the Church Army and borrowing armfuls of tapes from the learned and listening over and over. Good times those.

  10. No problem, gald I could share heretic1.

    Re your above post, one thing to keep in my is that aparently to the old testament Jews, they only saw one coming of Christ, the two comings and the intervening church period between them was a mystery to them.

    Pre-tribulation belivers like me would argue that the second coming is similar with the coming of Christ for the church at the start of the trib then coming with it in tow to judge/fight the AC at the end of the trib. (What about the saints in the trib someone may ask – converted by the Jews, flyign angels etc).

    I still intend to discuss some of the basic premillenial chronolgy (I’m fuzzy on it, been a while) as best I can in this thread (along with pre-trib/post trib business), probably tommorrow.

  11. We could probably do with a thread or two on comparative end times teaching.

    You know the sort of thing:

    Pre-millenialism, Post-millenialism, amillenialism.

    Pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or Post-tribulation rapture.

    Kingdom Now/Dominionism teaching essentially has influenced modern pentacostalism largely due to the influence of Peter Wagner and from him through John Wimber/Vineyard but having known vineyard types for a number of years now, they are generally sound Christians. The truth is that these days, there simply isn’t a great deal of teaching about the end times in any church. What this means is that the majority of Christians haven’t given end-times teaching a second or even a first glance.

    However, Dominionism is a dangerous heresy that relies on ‘fresh revelation’ and ‘new doctrine’ not found in scripture. The new ‘super apostles’ and ‘super-prophets’ on the ElijahList are now claiming to be God’s anointed mouthpieces who are spreading new teachings that have the same authority as scripture.

    It’s interesting that they all promise the same thing “Church is gonna get stronger and stronger and is going to take over the world.” (no-where in scripture is this promised, before the return of King Jesus at any rate!)
    “There will be a world-wide revival in these last days.” (Jesus promised that the last days will become very tough, big falling away, love of most grow cold and so on.)
    “Lakeland is a forerunner of the global revival” (please no more of that … please!)

    “We have apostolic authority, and we decree the word of God and Prophesy in His name.” meaning just them. (oh come on! We are ALL apostles. The spirit is to poured on ALL flesh. We are ALL to prophesy, we are ALL anointed!)

    Folks. I don’t need Peter Wagner, or Todd Bentley or anyone other than Jesus Christ.

    A modern day Luther might respond when asked “If you get rid of the New Apostles and Prophets, if you get rid of holy laughter and grunting like animals, if you get rid of celebrity healing revivalists and televangelists, if you throw away the ElijahList, what will you be left with?”

    “Jesus Christ. Man only needs Jesus Christ.”

    Shalom

  12. If I might add. These super-prophets on the ElijahList do exactly the same thing as the false prophets did in Jeremiahs’ day.

    The copied what other false prophets said, and they tried to bring comfort to the people by saying ‘peace, peace’ when there was no peace.

    Jeremiah actually had God’s words on his lips, however, and he told them that they were in for tough times because of their disobedience and lack of faith.

    Since the Church has been grafted into God’s Chosen People Israel, not replaced Israel, why do we as Christians think that God will treat us any differently?

    The Muslims have been brought to Britain by God, to punish the church. “Judgment begins in the Household of God.” How will we survive? “The Righteous shall live by keeping faith.”

    We will see how it all plays out of course. But even if the worst happens, still will I rejoice in Christ my Saviour.

  13. I am a post-tribber myself.

    It’s an interesting argument, to suggest that because the Prophets didn’t expect Jesus to come twice then why should we be surprised if he makes 2 returns?

    Well, the Prophets were deliberately kept in the dark on this. God did not clearly say that Jesus would come twice to the Jewish People.

    Since that is the way He dealt with His chosen people in those days, why should we be so privileged to be treated any differently? We haven’t replaced the old chosen people of God, we have been grafted into the old chosen people of God.

    We will not live apart from the Jewish People at the end, but rather, we will be living with them!

    So, it is slightly big-headed to think that we are any better and deserve to know something that the Jews did not.

    Besides, how long will Jesus come back for in the rapture? 2 minutes?

    Why does he have to come back at all?

    The only purpose for Jesus coming back at all must be to reign. I am looking forward to that.

    It’ll make the 7 bad years of persecution worthwhile at any rate.

    When He returns, there will be neither Jew nor Gentile, Slave nor Free, Male nor Female. There will be one new man in Christ Jesus. But only then.

    There will be no gender inequalities, social inequalities or cultural inequalities. All be be treated equally and with perfect justice. No one will be able to say “It’s not fair!”

    Hey, I am getting excited by this! This sounds fantastic! Total freedom, total justice. A kingdom wherein righteousness dwells!

    Pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib? Who cares?
    Jesus is coming back to be our King!

    Now that’s what I call eschatology!

    Shalom

  14. The bit about the 2 returns is just an interesting side note, I don’t hang my hat on it so to speak. The main reason I’m a pre-tribber is because I believe that Jesus has to come back at an unknown time and in the post-trib scenario that doesn’t seem to be the case to me (as in once the trib starts the timing is pretty straight forward – you know when it ends so, Jesus retruning then is no great surprise). An interesting possibility that crossed my mind the other day is what is if the AC signs the peace treaty with the many (democratic Israel) in secret, perhaps – so you don’t know the trib as actualy started – I think you’ll soon catch on though, plus the mid point with the temple bit is fairly well defined? (the various bowl and trumpet judegements all being fairly consipcuos too, the point is when you’re in the trib you’ll know it – so again the various verses about Jesus coming as a theif in the night doesn’t line up to my eye. Similalry I don’t see Christian and non Christain side by side in mill, one to be taken and the other left, at the end of the trib).

    I don’t think its a big issue though, pre-trib or post-trib we’ll have to take what we’re given (and can trust God to strengthen us to go through whatever we need to). As you say the main thing is he is coming back.

    I’ll also point out that I suspect that things may well hot up a lot for Chrisitians well before the trib proper starts (I’m not looking at the rapture as necesarily a reason that the west escapes persecution – if it can happen in China or Russia or Saudi Arabia – there is no reason why white Western Christians can’t experience the same. (I see the rapture as being about shifting the focus from Gentile to Jewish Christians, i.e. age of church ending and Israel coming more into focus).

    I’d like to have posted more tonight but here it is 9:31 and my first chance to post (apart from a few secs earlier) but I have to go to bed soon – I like a good 8 hours sleep – we had some interesting guests over for dinner though.

  15. well, regarding the timing of events …

    enough people “out there” know enough Christian eschatology to be aware of ‘the rapture’.

    So, if millions of Christians started disappearing over night, everyone else would soon be saying … “it’s the rapture!!!”

    So they would all have the timing of everything.

    What about the church? Well, there is already persecution now. More than 250,000 Christians are martyred every year.

    Does that surprise you?

    The numbers will probably grow, without us noticing. We could even be in the tribulation period now.

    Natural disasters, war, pestilence, famine. All affect us now. If things take a turn for the worse, well they were bad during WW1 and WW2.

    Things will get incrementally worse. However, the watchful will know the signs of His return and will not be surprised. He will come like a thief in the night to those who are asleep. (i.e. those who like having their ears tickled by Todd Bentley.)

    When persecution comes to the UK and even the USA, the rest of the world will only be thinking that the west has caught up with China, the middle-east and North Africa.

    Shalom

  16. The problem with some students is that they try to interpret the Book of Revelations like a secular Nostradamian prophecy rather than read it as a piece of Biblical literature. Alternatively, they view it as a titanic spiritual struggle between God and Satan like a Hollywood movie

    The former relegates God into a cheap fortune teller and the latter denies His omnipotence.

    Revelations (like the Book of Daniel) has an obviously unique style. It contains many symbols. The temptation is to attribute new meanings to the symbols when the rest of the Bible already has defined them by the context they are normally used.

    The Book of Revelations was written to Christians in a time of great persecution under Roman rule. It was not intended to tantalise the church with glimpses of the future or frighten them with horrific prophecies.

    In the midst of suffering, it was to provide believers a steadfast but joyous confirmation of the power of the Cross over sin and death. We are not to wonder if God will be victorious in this decaying word. The limited power that Satan exercises in this world is only as much God will allow. The Devil’s end is already pre-ordained. Satan may have the ability to tempt Man but God will not allow him to physically snatch the faithful from the kingdom . We don’t need to ask if the Lamb will win. Even as we struggle in our sinful world we are to live with the knowledge that he has already won!

  17. Bull! You’re my hero!
    It’s great to know someone else who is on the eighth-ball with the NAR, Latter Rain, Dominion Now, Third Wave, etc, STUFF!

    if you have any good resources or articles on those mentioned above, can you please pass them on here:

    specks_and_planks@hotmail.com

    Thanks!

  18. A theologian claims that the Antichrist is Assyrian:

    The desciption of the ‘Little horn’ of the ‘fourth beast’, the ‘little horn’ of the ‘fourth horn’ of the ‘he-goat’ and of the ‘wilful king’ of chapter 11:36-45. reveals the fact that they are one and the same, and discloses the fact the ‘anti-christ’ shall come out of Syria (which includes Assyria), and which was a part of the Old Roman Empire which is to be revived and cover again it’s former territory. (Dan 11:31-45; 2Thess 2:3-8; Rev 13:1-10.)

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