Rick Joyner’s Videos

I have been watching them.

You can subscribe there too if you want, but I haven’t.

He hasn’t really answered people’s questions, but he’s really attacked Lee Grady by using sinister comments and ploys which I am so used to hearing Christians use even on me. I must admit that it was fairly uncalled for on Rick’s behalf. Rick was right to call his letter ‘harsh’ and not being ‘more tactful’. Lee Grady had every right to post up Joyner’s letter. Joyner’s so-called ‘personal’ letter was abusive. And his video, talking about his letter to Grady, was seemingly aired to of cover up his personal attack on the man.

Joyner should have thought it might be public. Lee is a journalist. It’s common sense that journalist would post up anything news-worthy unless you make a statement like-wise. And from Grady’s behalf, he did the right thing. Not only that, Grady IS LED to believe that this letter was public.

Joyner said:

“I think you owe Todd, myself, Bill, and Jack apologies for your presumptuous judgments. I think they should be AS PUBLIC AS THIS LETTER WAS.” (emphasis mine)

With that information, I would even assume that Joyner has posted this letter up elsewhere, making this letter public. His comments to Lee Grady were demoralising, abusive, threatening and misleading. As from a journalists point of view, it was quite a good thing to publish to expose this divisive, abusive, hurtful soothsayer. But I hope this does not come “across as harsh” to anyone.

Joyner then said the following on his site via video:

“… and I answered to him in an e-mail to him which I thought was private. So I didn’t know he was going to publish it.”

“But it wasn’t Lee’s fault. I did not make it clear, I did not want what I wrote back to him publicised.”
“But I want to make that clear to you so that you understand it; I wrote it so fast at the top of my head, almost stream of consciousness. I would have done a much better job and made it much clear and understandable had I known he was going to post it and make it public.”

“I wrote it and I did not mean for it to go public. It was meant for Lee and Lee only.”

From above, you can clearly tell Rick Joyner is covering himself and not respecting Grady by LYING to cover his own nakedness. Grady keeps showing us this self-appointed apostle has no clothes and this self-appointed apostle doesn’t care!

The ‘Matt 18 guide’ Rick Joyner pointed out does not work. Period. It has been used and used again. Nothing happens. Nothing will happen if everyone uses this approach. Andrew Strom and others from this movement have applied such a method and have only seen this abused and proven to be ineffective against leaders that find no fault with themselves.

I have used this approach in the past with various abusive leaderships. You do all the right things nicely, sincerely, honestly and… nothing. I’ve done it til I’m blue in the face. So have others. I’ve discovered I’m not the only one who has done it to pastors, teachers or leaders behind closed doors. In these circumstances, Lee Grady has done the right thing since people have called ‘foul’ from the beginning and it has been refused to be addressed.

Rick Joyner in his video on his site has the guts to say the following:

“I was determined to confront this. I was determined to confront the illegitimate authority in the church today. Not just with Lee Grady but with many others that I believe is an illegitimate authority. And when you’re illegitimate in a place of authority, the accuser of the brother has a wide open door to use you. We must start learning to discern this accuser of the brethren that gets brethren accusing one another. Ok? Now some of the ways we can discern this is um…”

Go on Rick! PLEASE TELL US! (I don’t believe he’s gonna say this!)

“You know I believe the Lord is going to use His authority through the legitimate authority He has established in His church. He’s given us elders. He’s given us shepherds, he’s given us apostles and to be the authority within His church. I DO NOT BELIEVE A JOURNALIST DESERVES TO HAVE AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCH. I DON’T BELIEVE IT IS AN ILLEGITIMATE AUTHORITY and that’s what I was confronting Lee on.”

He then goes back on His common stabbing about Lee’s credentials of not starting church or a revival. If God can use anyone to start a revival, God can use also use anyone to sniff out a rat. Looks like prophets that don’t tickle peoples ears don’t belong to the institutionalised church which Rick Joyner is obviously made. Looks like shepherds are out their with the prophets looking after those hurt by the harlots within. Looks like the apostles are online establishing online church blog communities, addressing the hurting and the opinionated online. (And a lot more happens offline with personal PM’s or e-mails being exchanged!). God is online with those online, who want to remain online for God’s truth. It’s those offline and want to remain offline that I’m worried about.

Rick Joyner wouldn’t even listen to a child if the child was honest and said ‘You’ve got no clothes on’. Joyner is bad as O Reilly. No wait.

Reilly would take offense to that. The fact that Rick Joyner is clothing himself with his own lies without  a problem has confirmed my worries about him since I first of his book, The Final Quest: he is delusionally dangerous!

Rick Joyner is probably the most amazing soothsayer I’ve ever seen. He is a liar. Not only has he charmed thousands, but for him to charm an audience, he would have had to charm the snake first to attract one. Another who knows the scripture has been twist-teaching him and now it is all surfacing as he is pursuing whatever he is trying to pursue. He’s done it to himself. He has got his pedestal – not only his infallibility, but LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY.

From Rick Joyner’s biblical infallibility, he has legitimate authority. (Self appointed obviously through the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR).) Lee Grady has illegitimate authority. A journalist who does not have credentials like Rick Joyner.

However. Lee Grady is a Christian journalist who’s sole function is to examine truth, report truth and expose wrong things if truth isn’t in the circumstance. He has done so. His Christian job criteria is fulfilled, therefore (I find), this makes him legitimate. Not only that, he has taken a serious role as teacher, pastor and prophet. How?

Pastors and teachers defend the truth and expose the false things so that God’s flocks will not be scattered, divided or plundered by thieves or wolves. He’s prophetic in the sense that he has judged and (I believe) has done so appropriately. He is seeing things that are happening that are not of God and is asking for things to be corrected. And he is also one representative of all those who have cried foul from the beginning.

How the ‘accuser’, Rick Joyner bites back with the serpents help. But I say this not to be ‘harsh’. I say this because I really am rushed.

The self-appointed apostle Joyner has the right to tear down Grady because He is an apostle. But Grady has no right to expose Joyner and the gang?

At the moment, Grady still has more credibility then Joyner. I hope he does an expose. Rick talks about “spheres of authority we need to recognise”. Great. He could at least recognise Grady’s sphere of authority when it comes to CHRISTIAN journalism.

And now. Here is Joyner’s climax to prove he is a false man of God. The man himself pushes the one and only FALSE GOSPEL:
And I think when you go beyond what God has given you to do, (in Paul’s case it’s geographical, but these are spiritual too), you’ve GONE BEYOND THAT. YOU’VE GONE BEYOND GOD’S GRACE. You’re wide open for the enemy to use you.

You see. Right after this, Joyner goes onto say that Lee Grady and those that do all this reporting about the Lakeland Florida are stumbling blocks. He goes onto labeling them stumbling blocks. Oh I am so angry about this! Hypocrite! Before we address this false gospel, allow this smart and angry Christian point out Rick being the stumbling block:

“Lack of credibility… Dear Joyner, You sir, are the one who lacks credibility. You stood on stage with Bentley on June 23rd, 2008 along with other false apostles and prophets and not one of you had the discernment to see that Bentley was living in flagrant sin. Drinking excessively in public, ministering in public with his mistress beside him, telling the world he was happily married – showing off his wife and kids then dumping them weeks later. Not ONE of you so-called “apostles” has one whit of discernment.” – Javanut

Now this false gospel… how can anyone separate themselves from the love of God? Specifically grace? Well as Paul says:

Rom 5:20 … But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
So how can Rick say our actions go beyond God’s grace from saving us. Rick Joyner is a serious stumbling block in this regard.

But he finally rightly said:

“We as Christians need to discern the spirit now”

We’ve already heard his pathetic excuse of discernment on this issue:

“Now some of the ways we can discern this is um… You know I believe the Lord is going to use His authority through the legitimate authority He has established in His church.”

Oh that’s right! (If only he had a clue!)
BTW. For someone who rushed a letter to Lee, it’s amazing that there was no spelling errors or grammatical errors. (
Maybe he had time to check all those things before e-mailing out of anger.)

Joyner. You looked nervous and rattled. Just repent so that innocence can be restored to your vessel.
Their is nothing wrong with apology or repentance. It’s something we should all desire within ourselves and for those who are falling around us.

These are sad days indeed!


32 thoughts on “Rick Joyner’s Videos

  1. The person writing on http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2066664/posts believes that Rick Joyner is really the anti-Christ.

    Their reasoning is pretty logical. An example is that Joyner denies that Jesus is still a man and that the anti-Christ is the one who denies that Jesus “has come in the flesh”. “Has come” is present perfect tense meaning that Jesus remains a man.

    This point of view is a pretty major flaw, however. Rick Joyner can’t be the anti-Christ because Rick Warren is.

  2. it is a great pity that Joyner is a dominionist fascist promoting the Neo-Nazi Joel’s Army.

    He’s a closet Mormon/Gnostic Heretic and he’s also a Knight of Malta.

    Plenty of really weird stuff there before he even opens his mouth. And he’s the one covering Todd Bentley’s restoration?

    All these people should just try Christianity for a change. Oh, maybe they can’t. As Peter says, it would have been better for them had they never known the way of Salvation.

    (I am very angry … probably cos I am on a diet and am off the coffee as well. 😦 )

  3. That link Bull; thought it was funny that it was Miriam that cut-and-pasted Facelift’s response up on her blog!

  4. I haven’t looked at it for a few days myself!

    I’m glad he’s still active personally. I think we need to build up a bigger community here and then FaceLift could be allowed back. If there are many more ‘voices’, it means that not one or two voices dominate and take over.

    Much of the colour of the old signposts came from Lance and FaceLift and that was good, but there were many others who contributed and this meant that it was a community that everyone could come to and feel welcome, as long as they didn’t pick an argument with Lance, and to a much lesser extent, FaceLift.

    They might not like what I say next but the truth is, Jesus died for both of them, and has accepted both of them on one basis only … their Faith in Him.

    They both have to work out their salvation in fear and trembling too … but that is between themselves and God. I have no choice but to look for fellowship with them both. I cannot condone everything they do, just as they cannot condone everything I do. But, I believe, we are all better people than we were … even 2 days ago!

    I want to see a community building up here where people can come and be accepted, and helped to grow in the life of Jesus. Signposts/Signposts2 helped me … it gave me a community I could interact with people in and gave me a place to vent my spleen …

    Hmm. I have said a lot in that … the point I would make is that if I had a church fellowship in Australia, I would want both Lance and FaceLift to be a part of it.

    But I definitely would not promote tithing!


  5. It depends on what you see as the purpose of this blog. Is it a broad Christian community – a virtual church if you like, or is it a blog that discusses critically the theology and practice of the contemporary church?

    If its the former, then every Christian should be allowed. But if it is the latter, narrower purpose – then one has to look at the purpose of some commenters.

    Lance in my opinion was primarily focused on showing that Pentecostal Christianity is a pseudo-Christian religion – an un-biblical, exploitative, fundamentally stupid set of beliefs and practices.

    Whereas FL was primarily motivated in defending the practices of Pentecostalism and some of WoF. His focus was in re-butting any suggestion of wrong-doing and in apologetics for the theology.

    If the blogs purpose is in working out Christian theology and practice by critically examining the Pentecostal and contemporary churches, then neither extreme is very helpful.

    In my view both people are inextricably linked to Pentecostalism. Lance in his unrelenting negativity to it, and FL in his towing of the company-line.

    I personally would like to go beyond Pentecostalism. See it for what it is, only one of a vast number of religious movements. I used to think it was identical with first-century Christianity, but now I see that is not the case.

    While both commenters were extremely colourful, skilled and witty debaters – they ultimately served to discourage some others from commenting. I think FL did this more so than Lance.

    Lance has a new blog dedicated to exposing the silliness, exploitation and general fakery of the church. He does it well. I hope in this blog that we could discuss some of those issues, but also what was good about Pentecostalism and what is the way of the future.

  6. well, if we make it narrow, it will at best be for about 5 people.

    If it is to be worth visiting and becoming a part of, we have to make a broad church … a virtual church.

    That does not mean we cannot discuss the excesses of the theology being practiced in a lot of churches and movements.

    Your theology is only going to be as good as what you’ve been exposed to. Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be a place in a real church setting within which theology can be challenged and, if necessary, corrected.

    Both functions are necessary. Both functions are absolutely vital if your church, online or real life, is to grow, thrive and become effective in spreading the gospel. (I nearly wrote ‘winning the lost’ … but that is pretty patronising. All we can do is share our experience and knowledge of God … and God will open minds and hearts. But He won’t if we don’t.)

    Anyway, that’s my tuppence worth. Being critical of people like Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, Rock Joyner, Peter Wagner et al will only get us so far. There must be something more than just saying they are wrong. We need to be able to know what is right and then be able to encourage others, and build them up in faith, hope and love. Otherwise, what’s the point?


  7. I’ve always seen the purpose of Sigposts to see people grow in understanding and wisdom.

    I sometimes take Lances articles and post them up here so we can discuss them. I have his permission.

    What I want this blog to address are the illnesses in the church. Making others aware of them so other Christian’s aren’t caught up in moldy bread teachings.

    In doing so, I would think that anyone who accepts these teachings or not should be treated with respect, (unless they fuel the fire). In the end, hopefully people either stay or leave challenged enough to come to a healthy conclusion in their spiritual walk why they accept certain doctrines.

    I also want this blog to be up to date with what’s happening with the global church- good things or bad things. Question what churches are doing and discuss if they are good things or bad things.

    Every now and again, people post up music or revelations just add to other people’s spiritual walk. Frankly, what I get from Signposts are warnings, concepts and new ways at looking at church or events. I apply what I learn to my spiritual walk and ministry. I hope others do the same.

    As much as I bag out local Hillsong or CCC (C3), I still go to these places. I don’t get drawn in by the sex, money, power drives, but I am the invisible looking and helping the invisible or those hurt or never noticed in these environments. I will never fit in to these church envirnments. But I do love. What I learn on here that I think are valuable, I tell those who trust me (and these can be those in leadership too). I’ve seen eyes open, people set free, restoration, hope return and also healing come from this.

    I hope these places change. When they don’t, you’ll notice I’ll come on here and rant. I find Signposts02 a safe place and most importantly, an honest place.

    It’s to encourage people to work out there salvation, there place, there values and what they can be the church more affectively. That’s what I do and I hope you don’t live behind your monitor or don’t get involved in trying to change lives affected by these ministries.

  8. “They might not like what I say next but the truth is, Jesus died for both of them, and has accepted both of them on one basis only … their Faith in Him.”

    I totally agree. I never view my spiritually born again brothers as unsaved. Me or them may be thrown into the pit with Joseph, but they are still brothers, and the Lord is with them wherever we go.

    “I want to see a community building up here where people can come and be accepted, and helped to grow in the life of Jesus. Signposts/Signposts2 helped me … it gave me a community I could interact with people in and gave me a place to vent my spleen …”

    Well I hope this place can do this for you.

    “I have said a lot in that … the point I would make is that if I had a church fellowship in Australia, I would want both Lance and FaceLift to be a part of it. But I definitely would not promote tithing!”

    Me too. As I always say, “You can’t get a more perfect church for an imperfect world that needs God”. Our strengths and weaknesses are what make us. And people do like to see faults in people. It’s funny. And this adds to that persons character. That’s one reason why I’ve kept FaceLift on here for so long. He has such character. And I love it.

    So yeah, I’d love to see them both in church one day.
    (I’ll be in my blue coat… FaceLift in grey coat… Lance in White Coat…) =P

  9. This is the first time I’ve had a chance to look for a few days. I’ve been incredibly busy.

    Well, I really like a lot of what everyone has said here. Wazza – I’m really glad to see you are still around; I’d miss your comments.

    I can really understand the yearning for a virtual church.

    I guess we all have a slightly different take on things, but that’s part of what makes this interesting and educational.

    My take on the virtual church thing is a little different. I see us all as the church already, wherever we are (I think we all agree on that). You can’t join the church or leave the church – we are the church. Maybe that’s semantics, but to me its important, so I’d hate to label us an ‘online church’ as it has connotations of membership and a consistent set of shared beliefs that can be set down in a creed or ‘what we believe statement’. I think if we were to try to do such a thing, we’d never arrive at a finished document.

    I like to think of us as an online community

  10. (Continuing as I accidentally posted too quickly)

    …I like to think of us as an online community, which contains mostly people who are part of Jesus church on earth, in its many forms. But even a non-believer can regularly participate in a community if they feel to, without feeling they need to align themselves with a ‘church’. Though they may at some point become part of the church.

    So for me, I do think as a community that many of us share a common sense of mission – that would include the mission to:
    – establish a safe place to share our thoughts about various contemporary church practices that we can’t discuss so readily in that environment;
    – discuss doctrines and practices in the ‘church’ that we regard as harmful
    – discuss contemporary church events, which raise important issues – this would include the recent Rick Joyner/Todd Bentley events

    I also feel its important to talk about doctrines and movements but be careful not to label or judge personalities, because after all, only God knows the hearts of men. So I’m pretty cautious. I think a lot of the big name personalities are sincere and believe they know God; their words and actions show me that their beliefs differ substantially from my own, and from my perspective a good portion of what they assert is a lie – however – we all believe lies of some kind and probably propagate them unknowingly, so I am cautious about written judgements on people. I’d like to see less of that.

    My passion would be to see us discuss all things, but to respect those whose views differ from ours, and to do the best we can in love. Part of that love though, is being honest about harmful and unloving practices and teachings, so that hopefully others who haven’t thought about them much, might find voices online that cause them to think twice and re-examine scripture and attitudes about these things.

    Hope this makes sense.

    I will still make posts here – there are so many topics. My posts probably won’t be the tearing down Lakeland type of posts – I was unaware of all that until others here raised the issue, which was educational and a bit shocking for me – but I will probably post about practices, public teachings by prominent people, and anything else in the public domain, plus my own observations from time to time. And anything else God puts on my heart.

    I have prayed about my involvement with the blog, and I do feel that Father wants me to stay and not abandon things, and spend time here (in balance with the rest of my life). Good things can happen here, and even small things are important with Him. So I am also here partly in obedience to what God has shown me to do right now.

    That for me is not about Lakeland type issues, although they will be discussed – its about an ongoing participation with people here, in relationship, over time. These online relationships are special, and I believe God does use them uniquely for all of us.

    Hope this makes sense.

    Love to all.

  11. I personally would like to go beyond Pentecostalism. See it for what it is, only one of a vast number of religious movements. I used to think it was identical with first-century Christianity, but now I see that is not the case.

    Hear hear (or perhaps – here here – I am not sure). There is a move in this “direction” the world over. We need to move beyond movements, as it were.

    While both commenters were extremely colourful, skilled and witty debaters – they ultimately served to discourage some others from commenting. I think FL did this more so than Lance.


    I am keen to hear you thinking on going beyond Pentecostalism Wazza2. Please post.

  12. Hi folks

    I stopped posting because I’d had enough of FL’s black is white approach to things, but I needed to anyway _ I respect FL as a brother, but really wanted to use Maxwell’s silver hammer on a regular basis. I had/have other things I need to do.

    I check in to SP every now and then.

    In the context of the current discussion some major issues I have with any particular church – read congregation/denomination – is that for the most part there is this drift towards arrogant parochialism and tribalism. No matter what the best of intentions are I experience it in my own church and many of the complaints and hurts vented in the various incarnations of Signposts have come from that.

    It is something – the tribalism – that I am not comfortable with, because to me it indicates putting trust in what we do in a particular place….because we’re right of course….rather than Jesus.

    Often it is expressed using Biblical/religious language, but it still amounts to what I see as tribalism – which is all about the gathering and centralising power and justification over and in comparison to some one else – I do it all the time myself – not that I’m very successful at it – just as well.

    I see that Signposts is a place where that can be expressed, but at the same time if limited to that becomes exactly that – limited…and negative.

    Whereas faith in Christ should be a very positive thing.

    Any fool can pull things down, whinge, bitch and carry on etc.

    It is much more of a challenge to build people up in Christ, in an environment that sees and recognises individuals, while at the same time drawing them into the holy catholic body of Christ.

    To give people a place to say what they think, but ultimately be a forum which builds people up in Christ I think is a real challenge.


  13. good observation MN. a few churches and youth groups take pride in being ‘tribal’, so it aint that hidden.

    i hope to see you more on signposts as Facelift is no longer with us. hopefully signpost’s identity suits everyone yet mold’s with everyone as we do progress in our spiritual walk.

  14. S&P – better stop saying that FL ‘is no longer with us’!! It sounds as though he’s passed away, when in fact he’s very much alive and well – just no longer participating here.

    I’ve got a post planned on materialism and prosperity doctrine… just need to find the time to write it up properly.

  15. MN – I had to look up your reference. 🙂 I can relate to that, and agree with your point, “To give people a place to say what they think, but ultimately be a forum which builds people up in Christ I think is a real challenge.”

    A challenge, but we can have a go. I’m sure we’ll make mistakes, but we will hopefully at least head in a helpful direction. With God’s help!

    There’s a religious reference to ‘silver hammer’ as well – did you know that a silver hammer was used to strike dead Popes to make sure they were really dead before electing a new one? I guess we’ll never know if any were ever ‘helped along’ out of expediency.

  16. Ha ha, I’ve learned something new about the Popes and their silver hammers.

    Apparently the Beatles song “Maxwell’s silver hammer” was a reference to the concept of Instant Karma, ie. being punished immediately for wrong-doing. Maybe they didnt have much of a concept of Grace.

    Thanks RP and Heretic for your comments. I want to post more but I’m pretty busy. I think MN has hit the nail on the head about tribalism. I was going to write a post about Spiritual elitism – from the holiness movements, through Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism to the NAR, there has been a constant search to have that little bit extra on top of Salvation. But its all about making your own little tribe, an in-group that can reassure you that you are on the right track.

    Its difficult not to form these tribes, I think everyone is a bit bewildered by Globalism and longs for a pleasant little family or village. We want to insulate ourselves from the “world”. But thats a step backwards. The emerging church might emerge from tribablism and truly go out into the world, or it might descend into tribalism and elitism again. I can see both trends.

  17. the emerging church is already an elitist clique.

    The real problem with it, of course, is that EC leaders like Brian McLaren aren’t believers in the first place.


  18. Although lots of different things carry the tag ’emerging church’.

    I agree there will always be tendencies to tribalism, and one of the problems I think is that people often think of church as being the church they attend, rather than the body of Christ on earth, in its myriad of expressions. Even the division of life into secular and sacred helps lead to tribalism because it narrows our expression of faith, defining it more narrowly as well.

  19. “Its difficult not to form these tribes, I think everyone is a bit bewildered by Globalism and longs for a pleasant little family or village.”

    I don’t think it is like that. I think God naturally wants to move through His church. And when a handful of people do so with God, rather then let the Spirit reign, they get all excited and start trumping aloud that they have just started the next move of God. It grows. The one who God supposedly uses the most oversees everything. Everyone likes the idea of going to a spirit filled place.

    There’s your tribe. A people first hungry for God now hungry to prove the world they are the answer. How ego makes many movements in the church go wayward…

  20. Hey Bull

    How’s the coffee?

    Tribalism/elitism serves a couple of major purposes apart from plain old safety in numbers. It provides:

    those of who know we’re right a soapbox and power base from which to conquer the world; and

    those who are a little less sure and need someone to guide us, and tell us what to think some security

    I like S&P’s summary above, and also agree with RP’s comment about the body of Christ.

    How to be a functional and useful part of the body of Christ without chucking a wobbly and wanting the useful and functional part standing next to me…..

  21. RP and I were discussing mammon the other day (as you do) and she pointed out something I had not really considered before (but she did not post it I think). The literal meaning of mammon is money, but what is the “unseen” or spiritual reality that the “seen” reality of money points to?

    The scripture points to mammon being another “master”, a master being someone who provides you identity, security and tenets to follow.

    Money certainly does this. There are many rules and principles about getting growing and keeping money, money provides security and people definitely see themselves in terms of how much money they have and how they came by it.

    So the “unseen” version is that mammon is about identity, obedience and security and how finding yourself and your security in these things means you can’t get these things from Father through Jesus. You can’t have two such relationships at the same time (we are designed to be monogamous).

    There are many other things besides money that fall into the mammon category and this tribalism thing is just screaming out “mammon, mammon, mammon!”.

    The tribe gives you tenets to follow and if you follow them you get your identity. You get the security of being part of something that has in some way “arrived”, “made it” and if you are associated with it you have arrived too and are safe in the knowledge that you have made it too – you are OK.

    I am convinced that chasing the next big movement of Christians (emerging church maybe), or, say, hanging your hat on the third last movement (Pentecostalism maybe), is mammon. Similarly chasing the latest “outpouring” is the same.

    Father may have spoken the leaders of those movements. That is great. But that is not for us to rely on. Father speaks to us too and that is sufficient. I am pretty sure the only label we should appropriate for ourselves is the one Jesus gave us, being, friends of his.

    I don’t think it is wrong to go a Pentecostal or Emerging gathering and/or associate with brothers of that ilk but if you find your identity in it or become obedient to it or find your security in that movement then you may well be choosing another master for yourself and be in the thrall of unrighteous mammon even if money is no problem for you at all.

  22. I’ve relocated this discussion so it can follow on in its own right. (As per the link above).

    Cheers, RP

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