We’ll be discussing the results of the conversations we had with Franc Manhattan from Fire It Up Ministries. This was the discussion we had:
To start, we’ll end with a few people’s comments. Hopefully afterwards I’ll post up quickly my thoughts before someone else beats me to it! I will warn some that due to Signpost’s raw nature, some might find some comments on this thread a bit offensive.
Now it was this comment from Franc made me realise we weren’t going to get anywhere. I’ll explain later (if you can’t see why in his comment):
Franc Manhattan Says:
August 10, 2009 at 1:57 pm
I think we are walking very differently. True love is a condition which seems alien to some of you and yet you question how to tell the difference between god and the devil or angels and demons. I know how but I feel that you can only use scripture to do it and that surprises me. As I have changed it makes it easier not only to detect spirits but how to deal with them. You sound like you know but I dont think that you do. If scripture is all you know then it wont work. You may have your salvation but I want so much more.
To me it seems obvious that all we need do is follow the HS and your response is that you dont know when it is the HS, if you did you would agree with me. You said that you may have been wrong about me and that says to me that your flesh was ignited and not your spirit man. You may be afraid to be wrong but god is never wrong and your attack seemed freely spoken. A perfect man is a man who can control his tongue. Some of you cannot. Ask him to change your ways. There is no need to judge me. Tell me who that you know has been hurt by what I have done, and if you find someone find out if they live in forgiveness or something else. I am not offended by your attack, why should I be, if you dont know what you are talking about then its just a slinging match which I will not partake in. God loves you just so much and you dont see it. true love would change you. Even if all online agreed with you about me it would be from someone other than my GOD, my Jesus and My HS. If god is for me then who can be against me. You acting as leader should know. You should be more careful about attacking me with no evidence, God will show you who I am if you ask him. I am so confident in him that I know his voice, hear his voice, surely you have scriptures to back up what I say, Im using them in context. In context is the Holy spirit led.
You must understand me by now that if the spirit we are listening to is different that there is no way that we can be in agreement. Bitter and sweet cannot flow from the same stream. I can tell by your language use that there is a pride issue here. Pride will never agree with Love. a spirit of unbelief will never agree with gods word, his HS word.
S&P I am the only person here that gives his real name. Scripture shows that Jesus didnt answer all their questions because he knew their heart.
And I will choose which answers I give and they are so unimportant.
BTW Matt Ford said to me that next time that he is in Sydney he may have time to meet with you, if it can be arranged. I have given him a good report on Signposts02.
August 10, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Teddy: “Dangerous ground = adding to the Bible extra-biblical experiences without even providing substantial scriptural evidence (but then you do admit to a low view of scripture)- how many pages do we have to add to our bibles to include your new revelations?
You allow experience to determine your theology rather than theology determine your experience.”
This is probably the subject for another thread altogether I think, but my question to Teddy and others who are interested is this:
How do you know when a prophecy, manifestation, leading, vision etc etc is of God?
It is all very well to knock Franc. For my own self what is “third heaven”???? Is this theologically sound or not? Is it simply using unorthodox terms to describe something that is legit and confuses everybody else, or is it something new – new revelation if you like?
What’s the difference between manifestations etc that are legit, and those that are new revelations etc?
How does one characterise a prophetic word for a congregation – as a word for that people that needs to be acknowledged as being from the Holy Spirit and heard, or as something that is not (new revelation?)
When is experience discounted? For argument sake, Greg says he has seen and experienced the demonic – how do we tell the difference?
It seems to me it is too easy to either write every spiritual manifestation/experience off thereby ignoring the Holy Spirit, or accept everything thereby giving heed to the enemy.
August 10, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Some words on the third heaven –
“Everything real in life has a physical location. Our homes are real places and have definite locations that are fixed. The home is located in a particular area or city. The city is situated in a state that is part of a larger space called a country. The country is situated in a part of a globe called the Earth that occupies a position in the Universe. The Universe itself is located in a particular area of space. Is there anyplace besides the Universe? God says there is; in fact, it was the Apostle Paul that defined the heavens as being three distinct places. He was, “caught up” to the “third heaven” and heard inexpressible things. (2CO 12:1-10). So great were the things that Paul experienced there that he was given a thorn in his flesh, to keep him from becoming conceited about his trip. Where is this “third heaven?”
To find the third heaven, one must first establish the location of the first and second heavens. The first heaven is simply the atmosphere of our earth where the birds and the planes fly. It has definite boundaries, running from the surface of the earth to the place where the atmosphere ceases to exist. The second heaven joins the first and is defined as “outer space” where the stars and all the planets are located. In the second heaven there are, seemingly, innumerable amounts of stars (at least
according to man); but the Bible declares that the number of stars (and planets) are fixed, “He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name.” (Psalm 147:4). God has the location of the universe fixed along with its borders. Crossing the limits of the Universe one enters into the third heaven, which is the place God calls Heaven. The Scriptures often referred to this place as simply heaven, which is in reality the “third heaven.”
Sounds pretty definite to me
August 10, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Forced to agree with you again MN. Some comments above seem to regard the New Testament as a kind of “new law” as Dallas Willard says in the Divine Conspiracy. If an experience is not written in scripture it is deemed to be extra-biblical and therefore wrong, decieved, evil.
But Jesus said that we would do greater works than him. If every experience we experience must already be written in the scriptures how can we do greater works? Such an approach is a nonsense. Sorry but it is. We should be expecting more, not less. Infinite variation, not more of the same, by-the-book as it were.
“When is experience discounted? For argument sake, Greg says he has seen and experienced the demonic – how do we tell the difference?”
This is a pertinent question with, I think, an easy answer. Easy for me anyway. John says we know all things by the anointing. I know the things Father is saying to me but His anointing me by/with HS. (Sorry Teddy/Greg/Steve, not by the scripture by the anointing).
So if Franc has a weird vision (think of something really weird – maybe beasts covered in eyes or something) if HS impresses to me that it is not a good thing then I stay away and don’t get involved. If he impresses to me I should get involved then I do.
But if He does neither I don’t worry about it. If Father does not point something out to me about it why should I worry about it? I trust him to tell me what I need to know and when (not some intermediary Christian guru somewhere who does not even know me). After all who am I to judge another man’s servant who is not obviously sinning? If Father is not worried why should I be?
The real problem for most of us I think is that Franc’s experiences are not like ours. They don’t validate us. So we feel we have to judge them. We might judge them good – we might judge them bad. We might use scripture (extra-biblically), or morality or our own identities that define ourselves to ourselves.
Either way we get to say for ourselves whether we accept him as “one of us” or make conditions for him to fulfill before we will accept him (repent perhaps, become a better theologian perhaps, or maybe stop having a particular experience with Jesus).
This is the essence of organised religion. Controlling who “we” accept and who “we” don’t and therefore making sure we feel good about ourselves. Jesus was not like this. Jesus accepted all and asks us to do the same. This is His commandment – that we love our brothers. Not that we judge them and call it tough love (a term not in the bible for people who like to think in terms of “new law”).