‘FIRED UP’ About ‘FireItUp’

We’ll be discussing the results of the conversations we had with Franc Manhattan from Fire It Up Ministries. This was the discussion we had:

https://signposts02.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/to-matthew-ford-franc-manhattan-of-fireitup-ministries/

To start, we’ll end with a few people’s comments. Hopefully afterwards I’ll post up quickly my thoughts before someone else beats me to it! I will warn some that due to Signpost’s raw nature, some might find some comments on this thread a bit offensive.

Now it was this comment from Franc made me realise we weren’t going to get anywhere. I’ll explain later (if you can’t see why in his comment):

Franc Manhattan Says:
August 10, 2009 at 1:57 pm

S&P
I think we are walking very differently. True love is a condition which seems alien to some of you and yet you question how to tell the difference between god and the devil or angels and demons. I know how but I feel that you can only use scripture to do it and that surprises me. As I have changed it makes it easier not only to detect spirits but how to deal with them. You sound like you know but I dont think that you do. If scripture is all you know then it wont work. You may have your salvation but I want so much more.

To me it seems obvious that all we need do is follow the HS and your response is that you dont know when it is the HS, if you did you would agree with me. You said that you may have been wrong about me and that says to me that your flesh was ignited and not your spirit man. You may be afraid to be wrong but god is never wrong and your attack seemed freely spoken. A perfect man is a man who can control his tongue. Some of you cannot. Ask him to change your ways. There is no need to judge me. Tell me who that you know has been hurt by what I have done, and if you find someone find out if they live in forgiveness or something else. I am not offended by your attack, why should I be, if you dont know what you are talking about then its just a slinging match which I will not partake in. God loves you just so much and you dont see it. true love would change you. Even if all online agreed with you about me it would be from someone other than my GOD, my Jesus and My HS. If god is for me then who can be against me. You acting as leader should know. You should be more careful about attacking me with no evidence, God will show you who I am if you ask him. I am so confident in him that I know his voice, hear his voice, surely you have scriptures to back up what I say, Im using them in context. In context is the Holy spirit led.

You must understand me by now that if the spirit we are listening to is different that there is no way that we can be in agreement. Bitter and sweet cannot flow from the same stream. I can tell by your language use that there is a pride issue here. Pride will never agree with Love. a spirit of unbelief will never agree with gods word, his HS word.
S&P I am the only person here that gives his real name. Scripture shows that Jesus didnt answer all their questions because he knew their heart.

And I will choose which answers I give and they are so unimportant.

BTW Matt Ford said to me that next time that he is in Sydney he may have time to meet with you, if it can be arranged. I have given him a good report on Signposts02.

Franc

mn Says:
August 10, 2009 at 9:42 pm

Teddy: “Dangerous ground = adding to the Bible extra-biblical experiences without even providing substantial scriptural evidence (but then you do admit to a low view of scripture)- how many pages do we have to add to our bibles to include your new revelations?

You allow experience to determine your theology rather than theology determine your experience.”

This is probably the subject for another thread altogether I think, but my question to Teddy and others who are interested is this:

How do you know when a prophecy, manifestation, leading, vision etc etc is of God?

It is all very well to knock Franc. For my own self what is “third heaven”???? Is this theologically sound or not? Is it simply using unorthodox terms to describe something that is legit and confuses everybody else, or is it something new – new revelation if you like?

What’s the difference between manifestations etc that are legit, and those that are new revelations etc?

How does one characterise a prophetic word for a congregation – as a word for that people that needs to be acknowledged as being from the Holy Spirit and heard, or as something that is not (new revelation?)

When is experience discounted? For argument sake, Greg says he has seen and experienced the demonic – how do we tell the difference?

It seems to me it is too easy to either write every spiritual manifestation/experience off thereby ignoring the Holy Spirit, or accept everything thereby giving heed to the enemy.

Teddy Says:
August 10, 2009 at 10:29 pm

Some words on the third heaven –

“Everything real in life has a physical location. Our homes are real places and have definite locations that are fixed. The home is located in a particular area or city. The city is situated in a state that is part of a larger space called a country. The country is situated in a part of a globe called the Earth that occupies a position in the Universe. The Universe itself is located in a particular area of space. Is there anyplace besides the Universe? God says there is; in fact, it was the Apostle Paul that defined the heavens as being three distinct places. He was, “caught up” to the “third heaven” and heard inexpressible things. (2CO 12:1-10). So great were the things that Paul experienced there that he was given a thorn in his flesh, to keep him from becoming conceited about his trip. Where is this “third heaven?”

To find the third heaven, one must first establish the location of the first and second heavens. The first heaven is simply the atmosphere of our earth where the birds and the planes fly. It has definite boundaries, running from the surface of the earth to the place where the atmosphere ceases to exist. The second heaven joins the first and is defined as “outer space” where the stars and all the planets are located. In the second heaven there are, seemingly, innumerable amounts of stars (at least
according to man); but the Bible declares that the number of stars (and planets) are fixed, “He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name.” (Psalm 147:4). God has the location of the universe fixed along with its borders. Crossing the limits of the Universe one enters into the third heaven, which is the place God calls Heaven. The Scriptures often referred to this place as simply heaven, which is in reality the “third heaven.”

Sounds pretty definite to me :)

heretic Says:
August 10, 2009 at 10:45 pm

Forced to agree with you again MN. Some comments above seem to regard the New Testament as a kind of “new law” as Dallas Willard says in the Divine Conspiracy. If an experience is not written in scripture it is deemed to be extra-biblical and therefore wrong, decieved, evil.

But Jesus said that we would do greater works than him. If every experience we experience must already be written in the scriptures how can we do greater works? Such an approach is a nonsense. Sorry but it is. We should be expecting more, not less. Infinite variation, not more of the same, by-the-book as it were.

“When is experience discounted? For argument sake, Greg says he has seen and experienced the demonic – how do we tell the difference?”

This is a pertinent question with, I think, an easy answer. Easy for me anyway. John says we know all things by the anointing. I know the things Father is saying to me but His anointing me by/with HS. (Sorry Teddy/Greg/Steve, not by the scripture by the anointing).

So if Franc has a weird vision (think of something really weird – maybe beasts covered in eyes or something) if HS impresses to me that it is not a good thing then I stay away and don’t get involved. If he impresses to me I should get involved then I do.

But if He does neither I don’t worry about it. If Father does not point something out to me about it why should I worry about it? I trust him to tell me what I need to know and when (not some intermediary Christian guru somewhere who does not even know me). After all who am I to judge another man’s servant who is not obviously sinning? If Father is not worried why should I be?

The real problem for most of us I think is that Franc’s experiences are not like ours. They don’t validate us. So we feel we have to judge them. We might judge them good – we might judge them bad. We might use scripture (extra-biblically), or morality or our own identities that define ourselves to ourselves.

Either way we get to say for ourselves whether we accept him as “one of us” or make conditions for him to fulfill before we will accept him (repent perhaps, become a better theologian perhaps, or maybe stop having a particular experience with Jesus).

This is the essence of organised religion. Controlling who “we” accept and who “we” don’t and therefore making sure we feel good about ourselves. Jesus was not like this. Jesus accepted all and asks us to do the same. This is His commandment – that we love our brothers. Not that we judge them and call it tough love (a term not in the bible for people who like to think in terms of “new law”).


91 thoughts on “‘FIRED UP’ About ‘FireItUp’

  1. Feel free to talk about 3rd heavens and all that stuff. I would like to write about the above post. Franc can defend himself if he wants. I wont stop him. But I am NOT impressed with him at all.

    Let me highlight some things that concerned me and what I concluded with.

    1. He did not answer my questions in a reasonable manner. He evaded many answers.
    2. He does not seem to be capable in ministering effectively to others, but rather be self-absorbed in his experiential-Jesus.
    3. He is proud, arrogant and child-like in his approach to ministry.
    4. His ideas of ‘love’ are immature.
    5. He does not know how to discern spiritual things.
    6. He does not have a good knowledge of the bible.
    7. He is an unqualified person in a position of authority.
    8. He is bitter and religious.
    9. He lives in gnosticism.
    10. He is a manipulator.

    Let me now go through the post which I believe he crossed the line with.

    “I think we are walking very differently.”

    I agree.

    “True love is a condition which seems alien to some of you and yet you question how to tell the difference between god and the devil or angels and demons.”

    If we’re Christian, it’s kind of impossible to be alien to the true love of God. How could we be saved and not know him, if He is True Love?

    We can all know who God is, but when spirits mimic the Holy Spirit, how can you tell? Franc himself didn’t even answer this. Yet he accuses others for not discerning what is of God and the devil. I’ve stuffed up in the past I’m sure. But I can be open with Franc now, I know counterfeit and sensationalism when I see them. If I went to his meetings again I can guarantee you I will spot the one’s who are acting – those insecure and relying on the love of others and not God’s.

    “I know how but I feel that you can only use scripture to do it and that surprises me.”

    Listen to what Franc is saying here. He know’s how to identify the demonic or Satan, but is surprised I USE SCRIPTURE to discern and judge things in the spirit. Franc doesn’t use scripture to discern? That is worrying.

    “As I have changed, it makes it easier not only to detect spirits but how to deal with them. You sound like you know but I dont think that you do.”

    He suggest that he is changing but I am stagnant. I could read elitism into this single statement, but he might not be meaning to do this. But I didn’t ask him to compare me to him. Why is he doing this? I could let my ego get the better of me, but if they want, I’ll let Bull, RP and Heretic defend me on this matter. (If they want!)

    “If scripture is all you know then it wont work.”

    Now that Franc is getting personal, let me start my personal vent onwards:

    Here’s a lesson for you Franc: If Christ is the Living Word, then we must know the Word by going to HIS Word. Jesus claims, all scripture POINTS TO HIM. I understand this.

    The scriptures REVEAL the very nature and CHARACTER of God. He is a God of GRACE, TRUTH and LOVE. He is a God HOLINESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS and MERCY. He is a God of WISDOM, POWER and MEEKNESS. He is OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT.

    He is a God that wants us to put faith into the things unseen like those characteristics of Him above. We can’t see truth, grace, righteousness wherever we go – but just like the wind, we see Christian’s affected by these invisible attributes of God occasionally – some attributes stronger then others. We are called to GROW into all things of God.

    If Jesus is Love, He is also Righteousness. If Jesus is Holy, He is also Graceful and all-encompassing.

    Your God is ‘Love’, ‘Power’ and maybe ‘Holiness’ (set apart). If you only want see him in this lense, you don’t know who will be coming into your ministry playing you as a fool, coming in with an agenda or allowing a different spirit to move in other Christian’s lives. It is easy for someone to come into a meeting prophesying a ‘new thing’ or ‘one thing’, and everyone suddenly agrees with them because their understanding of God is narrow. If you love the power of God, someone can come into your meetings manifesting gold dust . Heaven forbid you embrace someone with the spirit of alchemy! If your focus is only on the ‘love’ of God, the next thing you know four years down is that the Buddhists and emotionally unstable people are still coming to your meetings because they feel accepted, not convicted of their sins or lifestyle that needs changing because that is what is holding them back in life or relationships.

    My God carries all the attributes the Word claims He is and claims what His character and nature is. I rest, find assurance and security in that and live in that truth. (Unfortunately it doesn’t mean I live up to that standard of lifestyle!)

    To chuck the scriptures out is to chuck out your God-given intelligence and discernment on spiritual things. You’ve only got the bathwater to drink. The half-toked baby is rolled up like a joint, buried in the bin.

    Get into the scriptures and pray that you truly know the God who created your soul. That is where discernment starts. See if your experiences line up with the Word, not you forcing the Word to line up with your experiences.

    I’m still growing, but right now I’ve got a bone to chew. I’ll ponder about what I’ve written later. (VENT MODE IS ON!)

    “You may have your salvation but I want so much more.”

    Well it’s nice to know that you’ve swallowed the ‘MORE’ Doctrine and are still SWALLOWING something MORE each day. You will have MORE experiences and MORE signs and wonders and MORE angelic encounters… But it will never be enough and you’ll be hooked and reeled down by the caster of not nets, but the caster of spells and enticements. This is a pure indication that your SOUL is CRAVING and THIRSTING for something other than God. Salvation IS enough. It is where we find FULFILLMENT in Christ and His finished work; where Love, Truth, Grace, Righteousness and Holiness are REVEALED perfectly in everything Christ did. Salvation is where it starts and Salvation is where it keeps on going til all His promises are fulfilled.

    Jesus said: “Those who drink my water will never thirst again… I am the Living Water. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him… I am the Bread of Life that came down from heaven… If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

    Those who experience the power of conversion drink and eat ONCE to discover that they live KNOWING they are saved, safe and SATISFIED in Christ and nothing else. As I always say:

    We no longer thirst when we put him first.
    We’re no longer dead once we’ve bitten from the Bread.

    Your statement above indicates to me that you preach another gospel. Worse. You ADD ON to the gospel. Being open, able and ready to be used by God is enough. Emotions, sensationalism and hype can lie, which is what is promoted in ministries like Fire It Up. You’re on the ocean without an anchor.

    “To me it seems obvious that all we need do is follow the HS and your response is that you don’t know when it is the HS, if you did you would agree with me.”

    I’m pretty sure I didn’t say anything like that. I’m open for correction. Sorry God Manhattan for not agreeing with your Spirit-filled words!

    “You said that you may have been wrong about me and that says to me that your flesh was ignited and not your spirit man.”

    Just being honest. Of course your ‘spirit man’ is on twenty four seven God Manhattan.

    “You may be afraid to be wrong but god is never wrong and your attack seemed freely spoken.”

    Actually I am not afraid to be wrong. If I am on error on Signposts, I actually encourage people to correct me on such things. I’m human. I expect to be wrong. ?

    Also in this, you are also claiming I attacked you. I would say this is a FALSE CLAIM. I asked you where it was I attacked you and you didn’t respond. Typical.

    “A perfect man is a man who can control his tongue. Some of you cannot. Ask him to change your ways. There is no need to judge me.”

    Okay perfect spotless man. You’ve controlled your tongue so well you’ve deceived yourself into thinking you have. You did not answer the questions. You evaded Greg’s numerously. You’ve accused me of things I have not done to you in the previous discussion. You’ve tried to come across as a persecuted Saint shining bright and strong, only to not realise you’re trapped in your own delusions about yourself. And further on you use the love of God exalt yourself but to belittle me. I’m not offended that you belittled me, but disturbed that you used the ‘love of God’ to do so. What type of tongue is this? This actually disturbed me.

    “Tell me who that you know has been hurt by what I have done, and if you find someone find out if they live in forgiveness or something else. I am not offended by your attack, why should I be, if you don’t know what you are talking about then its just a slinging match which I will not partake in.”

    I know a few who actually were planning on going to go to one of your events and another individual who befriended Ford. There testimonies were indeed interesting. My individual friend who wanted to know Matt more personally started getting attacked in their dreams until they decided not to come back to their meetings. Their nightmares were demonic. This person is trustworthy and incredibly spiritually sensitive. They said they saw Matt involved with (in?) a pentagram going through forbidden books and flicking his fingers at them in the dreams. (Matt was in a pentagram in one of his videos – himself and a few others acting or manifesting in a ‘repentagram’ – an actual pentagram. My friend did not know this fact about Matt.)

    They finally met up with me and told me what happened. We prayed for each other and I apologised for dragging them into experiencing such spiritual turmoil. This person didn’t know you or Ford. We planned to go test the spirits and to get to know you both. The results for my friend were shocking.

    I would seriously pray about this Franc. SERIOUSLY. I know you love having angelic encounters and that you see them. You talk about them often. For your sake Franc, get into the Word, grow in love for others and grow in discernment for your spiritual health. The testimonies of others from Fire It Up or concerning. I can only warn you. Prepare yourself with discerners and teachers of the word so that you can go into ministry in a spiritually healthy way.

    “God loves you just so much and you don’t see it. true love would change you.”

    Nor do you. His love is so great none can truly comprehend how deep… how wide… His love is. What are you trying to say here? Are you saying you are a Gnostic? You are elevating yourself above me in spiritual experience, revelation and divine knowledge. What was the point of saying this. So I could feel little?

    “Even if all online agreed with you about me it would be from someone other than my GOD, my Jesus and My HS.”

    I’d agree.
    Scripture points to Jesus. You say you rely on the ‘Holy Spirit’. The ‘Holy Spirit’ will ALWAYS lead you to Jesus to be glorified. Jesus will lead you to exalt and honour the Father. The Father will honour the Son and glorify the Son by giving Him the power of His Spirit. With all of the Godhead honouring, exalting and glorifying each other, we partake in that glory. It’s WE not ME.

    But the scriptures you choose to read point to YOU.
    You ‘Holy Spirit’ seems to point to YOU. (The drinking and the toking says it all.)
    Your Jesus points to YOU.
    Your ‘Daddy’ points to YOU.

    When we have asked you questions about how you minister to others, you talk about YOU and what God is doing for YOU. When we’ve been polite to ask you again to answer the questions you talk about YOU and what God is doing for YOU.

    Get over yourself and start listening to others and ministering to those who are broken in your church.

    “If god is for me then who can be against me.”

    Nice. Well done for using scripture. Are you proud now for placing God behind everything you say? Obviously your use of scripture now is to indicate to us ‘You are right’ and we are wrong. I was reading a lot of warning bells in your comment, but this was the siren.

    WARNING! WARNING! Exaltation of Ego is now imminent!

    “You acting as leader should know. You should be more careful about attacking me with no evidence, God will show you who I am if you ask him.”

    I asked you where I attacked you and you did not respond. Silence was your only answer. Typical. Can’t you see the power of EGO and how you are coming across here? The ‘leader’ is in control, so now watch the leader fall under God Manhattan’s command! (I’m chuffed to thinkyou saw me as a leader! I just love Signposts! Does that make me a leader?).

    “I am so confident in him that I know his voice, hear his voice, surely you have scriptures to back up what I say, Im using them in context. In context is the Holy spirit led.”

    Well since you have failed to tell us how to discern and since your ego is pioneering full-throttle forward, I know you are confident in yourself. Any believer can hear God, but I would believe you struggle hearing over the sound of your ego and the spirits around you. In saying this, this does not mean the Spirit doesn’t use you. He knows when to use you when you don’t even realise it.

    “You must understand me by now that if the spirit we are listening to is different that there is no way that we can be in agreement.”

    So what are you encouraging me to say? Let’s be clear. You are in complete disagreement but you are too ‘loving’ to say that, so you want me to say openly first that I am in disagreement with you?

    From the very beginning of the thread, I was really hoping to see Fire It Up in a different light. I’m still willing to hope so, I just don’t think you’ve represented the ministry well at all with your hypocrisy, manipulation and false accusations. Maybe I was a bit strong with my tone, but you failed to address and correct me where I supposedly attacked you.

    “Bitter and sweet cannot flow from the same stream.”

    Holy fire and brimstone can fall from the same sky. Your point? Do you like to sound clever?

    “I can tell by your language use that there is a pride issue here. Pride will never agree with love.”

    I simply sigh. Maybe that can apply to me. But I’m looking straight back at you Franc and see a whopping fat tree sticking out of your eye.

    “A spirit of unbelief will never agree with gods word, his HS word.”

    A spirit of unbelief will always DEPEND on the physical manifestations, angelic experiences and encounters to FEEL like they are progressing in their relationship with God. Jesus calls that wickedness. Where’s your faith in relying on the invisible God of your life?

    “S&P I am the only person here that gives his real name.”

    I know that God Manhattan. What’s your point in saying this?

    “Scripture shows that Jesus didn’t answer all their questions because he knew their heart.”

    And I am so glad you know my heart and like the fact that you try to use it for your own gain. Because you didn’t answer our questions the way that Jesus didn’t answer people’s questions, you must know my heart too.

    “And I will choose which answers I give and they are so unimportant.”

    You’ve answered… I think one question out of a dozen. That does it?

    “BTW Matt Ford said to me that next time that he is in Sydney he may have time to meet with you, if it can be arranged. I have given him a good report on Signposts02.”

    The classic carrot-before-the-donkey trick! Slam me, accuse me, but leave me hoping that I am worthy to have the great Matt Ford meet with me online. This actually refrained me from posting because I actually thought “WOOOWWW!!!”

    That was til I met a few more people today that knew you Franc. They did not have good testimony and these are people of high trust. They would hate to think that they would slander anyone. Unfortunately you have warning bells attached to you. I can see why. You manipulate. If you don’t believe me, apparently you went to CCC for a good while and gained quite a reputation there.

    – – – – –

    I don’t usually write like this, but after much thought and consideration, I felt like a rant was deserved. This is manipulation. This is deception and this is arrogance that is allowing an unqualified person to oversee a local church. All are welcome to rant. Come on Greg! Now’s your chance!

    It seems Franc seems to lack self control and therefore incapable of helping others in his ministry. He lacks a decent understanding of scriptures. Franc prefers experiences with the spiritual rather be anchored in the Word. Franc prefers to focus on His holy ghost relationship then share with us how he can actually help people in his ministry who come under attack by some of the things he and Ford’s ministry dabble in and encourage people to enter into. Because he is now in a position of overseeing and representing a ministry, you deserve to be wisened up quickly. You are called to be accountable and you’re not showing it.

    If you think I am tough, you can say what you think. This is Signposts02. But I will not have someone stare me in the face and ‘love me’, and then be so subtle, deceptive, manipulating and accusing that they ‘win’ and the other loses.

    The other thread wasn’t about winning or losing; being right and wrong . It was about understanding the other person’s point of view. I know I was pushing Franc to answer my questions. And again politely. And then again politely. Maybe he thought I was intentionally pushing his buttons, I don’t know. But the way he spoke reminded of someone else we use to have on Signposts02.

    His accusations were false. He evaded the questions. He used love as a barrier to hide behind answering the questions. You can’t talk to people like that. I only hope Matt Ford realises the person he has hired for his ministry.

    I could see something else being said in Franc’s words and I didn’t like it. I didn’t want to say anything until now which is why I stopped the discussion.

    How is what I have said at all above ‘loving’ you might say? Well I believe in harsh love. God has dealt with me severely when I am out of line and so did my father when I was a boy. I thank both of them now. Being nice and loving to people like Franc wont get them to change unless they want to change. His love was boasting and his love was arrogant. Worst of all, Franc was using God’s love in a belittling way against me.

    Franc totally relates love to feelings and experiences.

    Love actually is fulfilling. As Raving Pente said (Thanks RP!):
    “Love is not a human feeling; its a divine motivation that transforms.”…

    THE END

  2. “Sorry Teddy/Greg/Steve, not by the scripture by the anointing).”

    So how do we judge the anointing – by our experience?
    No way, the Bible is still the only standard we can trust. I’ve seen too many whacked out people use that argument!

  3. The sufficiency of God’s Spirit in meeting our needs does not mean we can neglect God’s Word. The Spirit works through the Word to accomplish God’s purposes in our lives.

    Psalm 19:7-9 on the suffiency of Scripture: “The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul [transforming the whole person]; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple [imparting skills for every aspect of daily living]. The precepts of the Lord are right [they establish a right path to follow], rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes [enabling the believer to see truth clearly]. The fear of the Lord is clean [untouched by sin], enduring forever; the judgments of the Lord are true; they are righteous altogether.

    Scripture is sufficient to supply all God wants us to know about Himself and His will for our lives. Scripture must be illuminated by the Holy Spirit working through God’s Word providing the supernatural resource . That’s why Scripture is “more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb”

    David prayed, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, my Lord, my rock and my Redeemer”

    Joshua 1:8: “This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it.”

  4. Forgive the ubiquitous love scripture – but it is so important. Love ‘does not rejoice in unrighteousness’, but neither is it ‘provoked’. It is ‘patient’, ‘kind’, ‘bears all things’, ‘hopes all things’.

    1 Corinthians 13:4-7

    ” 4Love (K)is patient, love is kind and (L)is not jealous; love does not brag and is not (M)arrogant,

    5does not act unbecomingly; it (N)does not seek its own, is not provoked, (O)does not take into account a wrong suffered,

    6(P)does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but (Q)rejoices with the truth;

    7(R)bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. ”

    Both my ex-pastor and S&P said the same thing:

    ““LOVE IS NOT A FEELING BUT AN ACT OF YOUR WILL”…” – S&P

    You know, this is one of the reasons I left my last church. The incumbent leadership did not understand love, and did not know how to practice it, except where it was obviously duty.

    The belief that love is not a feeling, but an act of will alone, is a deception, and limits the nature of God. Read the scripture, look at Jesus life! This is vital. Without love all we do is ‘filthy rags’ (Isaiah 64:6) – we abide in ourselves and do not abide in Him.

    When love becomes nothing more than an act of your will, it becomes law and the flesh. If we love only as an act of our will, then everything we do becomes potentially Pharisaical. Including what we are doing here.

    I’m sorry. I’m not supporting the idea that love is just an emotion either. But I think that when we view love this way, we head into legalism.

    This is very ‘dangerous ground’. It is an opportunity to be seduced by the flesh. It is the easy road.

    ******************

    We can’t transform ourselves or others by insisting upon our ‘will’. That approach is doomed.

    If we find we have no love to act from, then we need to pray. In the process we will find more of God and His power than we ever will from acting out of ‘our will’.

    Love is not a human feeling; its a divine motivation that transforms.

    ******************

    What is happening here? Someone was invited here, to share their views. They exhibited self-control in their speech for the majority of the thread, while putting themselves at risk. They even exited the thread when things became too heated, and came back when their control was restored.

    They trusted the assertion that the thread was a safe environment.

    Now what is happening? The guest has gone. The guest is being judged in the name of love as an act of will.

    The discussion has moved away from the practices and doctrines, and focussed on the person, whom we only know through one thread here. We can speculate, but we cannot see his heart.

    And this is called love.

  5. I cannot see the difference between those who insist that we should _all_ drink heavenly wine in their particular manner, and those who judge that they are the arbiters of another man’s heart.

  6. Re the actual practices under discussion:

    – it is possible this is a ministry specifically to those involved in substance abuse, and I asked this question but did not get an anwer. I don’t think it is, and would enjoy being corrected if I am wrong, but it appears this is being put forward to all people, and not just substance abusers, which in my view lacks both wisdom and love.

    – further, here is a link talking about the practice of drunkenness promoted by RHB:
    http://www.letusreason.org/Pent21.htm

  7. Me too Specks – great look. Our reputation is at stake now so we needed to look more professional! 🙂

  8. Hi Guys
    Loved what youv said S&P, keep up the good work. The Anointing secret hidden truth is not in scripture. Never was nor can it be. Love is too a feeling, an action, you can see it if its there. have you had children and seen the love that they have for their parents and how so many parents are too afraid to give it back to them. So they just buy them something and often punish them when all they really needed to do is love them. Our Australian culture generally is not love or respect based, or family based. Really quite cold hearted. I find the Indian, nation respects their elders and the Vietnamese and Korean people too. The white Caucasian race generally are not a kind race, easily led astray, Lovers of power and money. So my point here is If you think that I am immature in those ways and I have learned to love in spite of rejection, judgement, jealousy,
    etc then, you would say the same about my best friend Jesus. To me he is as simple as they come, Just love me, and love them, I have fulfilled all requirements. As far as the ANOINTING is concerned, I actually have his peace.
    Thanks also for defining his strengths in me. I woke this morning at 1pm froma deep sleep, I was concerned that I was very wrong and Teddy of all people was right. ….The Anointing is Right. It proves that scripture alone will not and cannot do it. FAITH, HOPE and LOVE, the greatest of these is LOVE. Scripture points us to the ANOINTING. The Anointing and Scripture cannot be in Disagreement. THey AGREE> YOO< HOO. I love you all so much more.
    Try just breathing in Heavenly air, imagine you are in heavenly places with the ANOINTED one, same ANOINTING, and breath in its air.
    Its OK if you dont want to, you know.
    OH YES, Major TOM and HERETIC I agree with everything they say, as far as I have read.
    OK LOVE ONE ANOTHER and if you find it hard and get sick critical then just back off a tad and until love and criticism meet and you will find your natural balance right there. And Dont worry about your problems God has already solved all of them, and answered all your prayers, yes and amen.
    Love with fresh love daily, remember God loved you before you loved him.
    Perfect love casts out all Fear.
    Love you more and Matt sends his Love too. I gave him a great report on you all.
    I love ravingpente and MN. Love yoos all heaps.
    Teddy the most professional look is LOVE. Love you teddy and Happy birthday.

  9. Cheers, Franc!

    BTW… are you ‘whacked’ as you write this?? Sarcasm not intended – just curious… 🙂

  10. Those who know the history here might have a laugh at this…

    “Major TOM and HERETIC I agree with everything they say, as far as I have read.”

    The irony!

  11. I offended you S&P I do ask you for your forgiveness as do I ask all of you. If my comments have really offended please forgive me.
    Yes I was at CCC for many years and yes things happened and I think that they really thought I was a threat. I was not as far as I knew. Deacons used to gather round me if I went anywhere near certain pastors. As far as I knew I Really love them and still do. Ravingpenty was right and I did at times need to remove myself as I found that my bitchy bit got triggered, sorry to offend if i did. This is new to me and good for me.
    Yes many may think that I am wrong for ministry but I really have to trust god on it all. I have seen most of you vent and Its fine by me it brought out what the flesh thinks of me. If you knew the full CCC story S&P maybe you would see it all differently. I may have bitten back too hard. Victors have there own story, mine will have to have Jesus on their side. I really couldnt handle the attack it just got too much when everyone seemed to go against me there. It was like I lost everything and everyone. But through it I learnt that ” when you go through a desert, youll come out the other side with very little and only what is esential for life itself”. I threw out all that was unnecessary for survival. I kept my faith and trust in God. I know people lied about me, that I was called a LOOSE CANNON, My best friends were my worst enemies.
    GOD came first for me and I wouldnt submit to the leaders as far as they were concerned. I really just did what I believed god told me. And it took me out. There are many I have helped along the way, I have said my piece at the expence of relationships when I felt it was true. I have left a few churches for the same reasons. Yes people seem to like and love me but usually not leadership. I go out of my way for the underdog, oppressed, I would rather spend time with druggies, gays and prostitutes than many church goers.
    I cant mind what you say because my flesh has been killed in quite a few ways, I know that I will get over it. It does hurt but wounds do heal and so will my heart.
    When I was down and out, really, the HS was all I had, I am really letting you see me here. God let me know him. Sounds like many of you have also been through it. My own son has said to me that my faith and determination through tough times has been a great testimony to him for the goodness of god.
    So now is your chance, call CCC, Avalon CLC, Jubilee, SHOW, DY Baptist. let what ever there is about me be revealed.
    ON my behalf, I can say that I shouted louder, praised bigger, gave more than I should, left nothing, so what do I have now, Just my trust in GOD.
    Thanks for giving me a place to say this, and having said it I do feel rather vulnerable.

  12. My Pastors at CCC were… [edited out] … in reverse order, Had some great times there in the holy spirit, Rodney Howard Brown.

    YES I have failed at everything I have ever attempted, totally. My weaknesses are greater than most. The day I got saved I just wanted to be a pastor and called the church the next day and asked. How do I become a pastor. I just did what they said.

    I did get to the point where salvation was everything if it was all I had and all had failed. Salvation I could take to eternity. I was happy with that. Completely.

    I figured that “in my weakness he is strong”. I dont have many scriptures but I find that they are life to me. I really know that he loves me. And if any of you would like to expose something please do, Im un prepeared, really because I dont really know what people may say. If you need more names from churches I can give them to you, it may save some time.
    Im loving you more now, its easy when I have nothing much at all to loose.
    What cant be taken is my love for my family and salvation.

  13. I will be having a meeting at my place on Thursday in Newport and you are all welcome just mobile first. I promise no toking. I’m sure we’ll get on ok.

    You are right S&P. They had said that we could use their hall but changed their minds. It happens to us a lot. I will stay open to you all as best I can.

    Anyway If anyone can help take some goods to BOURKE for the aboriginal community that would be helpful or help with fuel costs. I am prepared to drive myself but my car is not big enough for all the things. The goods have been donated by woollies and we have a contact in Bourke.

  14. Franc, I’m going to ask S&P to take your personal details off the site, because you might be harrassed if you leave them out on the internet. I’m sure he’ll do this ASAP. You can email S&P at specks_and_planks@hotmail.com (which is on the Welcome page of this site) and he can pass your details on to those interested.

  15. I’m keeping the content private to protect the privacy of people involved in any private or personal issues. I have also removed your personal details from the site.

    It is not safe to put up your personal information online. Nor is it to put up others who didn’t want to get involved.

    It’s important to be careful with what you put up on the internet.

  16. Yes TEDDY they have all looked at what we have all said. God is watching too.
    Why would there be concerns for me when there is open disfavor for me. Surely i deserve every bit of attack that can be attracted.
    If I am as bad as you say it may be better.
    You can meet me face to face over coffee, seeing is believing. No Toking

  17. Perhaps we need to be dialoguing with Kerrod McQuaker,
    Specks? I would love to read his views on Franc’s interesting (to say the least)approach to the Bible.

    Seriously though, I’m not at all interested in their views in light of the craziness of their site.

  18. When you have looked into the eyes of Jesus and his love comes pouring out.
    And found its way so easily into every part of me.
    Its easy to see that it flowed so well that it must have known the way.
    All the way back to him in me that spark in me you dwell.
    Why did you come, why are you here, his presence almost unbearable.
    Im just so unworthy of you and you are just so beautiful.
    Many will say all manner of things about you, many will curse you.
    Keep going franc, it is me their after. Follow the narrow path.
    I am with you always, even to the end of time. Love my people.

  19. Franc, the harrassment I am talking about would not come from regular commenters on this site. It’s like spam. You might find yourself having to change your phone number or email address.

    Why would there not be concern for your personal well-being on this site?

    I think that regardless of anyone’s views here on ministry practices and doctrines, we would all be united in wanting to ensure eachother’s safety and well-being on a personal level. 🙂 Plus its a duty of care towards visitors. The risks of disagreement involved in discussion are the only risks we want anyone here to be taking.

  20. All of us regulars are probably here out of concern for one another’s well being, and that of the wider church beyond us. Despite the contradictions appearing in our viewpoints.

  21. All right. I have been silent so far for the reason that I have been on holiday.

    I am pleased that Franc has had the courage to blog with us. Kudos to him for that.

    However, the content of the answers to questions lacked enough detail in them to be truly satisfying. My only advice would be to get really into God’s Word. I became a believer in 1991 myself. For eleven years I took God’s Grace far too lightly. I treated God’s Word too poorly and did church in a way that I received much, but seldom gave.

    When my dad died, my comfort zone got pulled out from under me. God’s Grace was tremendous. I discovered the Bible in a new way. A radical way. I began to understand who God is, and how He worked through individuals in the old testament, and how He works through us individually and corporately today.

    I discovered that the Bible is particularly addictive. The more you know and understand, the more you want to know and understand.

    One of the things said by Franc was acknowledging his lack of Biblical Knowledge but offsetting that by his knowledge of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Well, the problem with that approach of course is that it was not one Jesus or Paul took.

    Let me give you an example. Some of you may have seen this before but hey … it’s good.

    A crowd of angry men, dragging a frightened, naked woman with them came to Jesus and said “This woman committed adultery and the Law says she must be stoned.”

    Jesus reached down and with his finger wrote in the dust at His feet.

    He is recalling to their minds the finger of God writing the Law on the stone tablets.

    He is also caught between the Law of Moses on the one hand and the Law of Rome on the other which basically meant that a person could only be executed for a crime against the Roman Law … and Adultery was not a crime in Rome.

    So what does Jesus say? “Let the Sinless man cast the first stone” ???

    No. In the Law of Moses, a person could only be a valid witness in a trial if that person was innocent of such a crime. 2 valid witnesses were necessary in order for a trial to be successfully prosecuted.

    So Jesus was saying “Let a valid witness, one who is not guilty of this crime, cast the first stone.” And everyone left. He was telling them that He knew the law better than any of them. Writing in the dust told them that He wrote it!

    “Where are your accusers?”

    “There are none.”

    “Neither do I condemn you … I was not a witness … but don’t do it again, I might not be there to defend you next time.”

    Isn’t it good to have Jesus as your defense lawyer?

    Knowledge of the scriptures is power. It allows you to out argue the Devil … remember Jesus in the Wilderness? His argument with Satan?

    Word without the Spirit … you dry up.
    Spirit without the Word … you blow up!
    Word and Spirit together … you grow up.

    Shalom

  22. Your point is incredibly valid RavingPente. Maybe I was too quick too respond.

    I reacted to Franc, but that doesn’t mean I don’t love him. I simply called to light what I saw he was doing.

    I am actually amazed at Francs response to this thread. God bless him for copping what I said to him but being beautiful enough to reconcile differences in these circumstances. I can only pray he has heard what I said to him, so he can start examining himself before the Lord and allowing the Lord to ministering to him in these areas.

    Since I have been quite harsh on you Franc, I will understand if you want to correct me in how I should have treated you better.

    I don’t wish to justify myself, but it is common on Signposts to ‘rant’ to get things off your chest. By all means you can do that to chang me. I understand.

    RavingPente rightfully corrected me as she pointed out I did invite you on to discuss about your ministry. But then how I lowly ‘ranted’ about you. I thought you would move on and I thought I would be evaluating with others your ministry. I actually thought I came across respectful, but now I see that a ‘rant’, as much they are fun to help release my zeal, it could have really hurt you. I pray you only learn through what I have written how to improve your walk with the Lord.

    At the same time, I need to learn how to balance my heart and my head; and balance my respect for others with facts.

    I’ve heard of your testimony from others and know that you have gone through a lot. And to post it up on here and trying to be transparent… I admire you for that… I have actually changed the tone of my rant and will in a second change the title of this thread as it seems pretty heavy.

    All I can say is we are all growing together, and I am glad I am wrong about you in some areas. If I see and hear changes of your ways, I will take those statements back, for your sake and the sake of others.

    In perfect honesty, I love truth and I love the work of the Spirit in Christian’s lives. Walking in the balance is the hardest. Truth tells us not to compromise, but I generally find the Spirit encourages us to let go of the things of the world and just to trust.

  23. “Love is not a human feeling; its a divine motivation that transforms.”

    I’d probably retract my statement above about being an ‘act of your will’ and agree with this above. This is a good definition RP.

  24. The comments on here are amazing. I hang my head.

    Franc. I have read your testimonial posts over and over again. I’ve been there and it is incredibly lonely. Those above me were doing it for there self interest.

    Was I in my rant? I am confused about it now. I just had to let it out. It was fifty fifty. But I never underestimate how powerful testimonies are. I don’t think I can endorse some of the things you are doing… but I love how much you love Jesus. And my heart feels burdened when I heard your testimony because I have been where you are.

    The main reason for the rant was not for my self interest. Believe me on that. I don’t want to see you stumble and go wayward. Is that a loving enough reason to say what I said? I’m sorry! To love you and others, does it have to hurt to see speak against someone in error who is doing harm to others?

    I often approach these blogs with God. Was he there when I wrote the rant? Yes and know. I got some great revelation as I was writing. And in other instances, me got in the way.

    I am up for correction. And I do forgive you. You are my Christian brother and I hope you forgive me if I came across to harsh. But please at least heed my words of concern.

    I do love you. I might have an odd way of showing it. I am in love with the church of God and hate deception leading people away from God and His love, truth, righteousness, grace and righteousness. The gospel message must live on.

  25. This from MajorTom. Just letting you know MT, I am not sensoring you. I don’t know what wordpress is doing. Your comments are showing up in moderation. Don’t know what’s happening to them.

    Teddy,
    ‘You allow experience to determine your theology rather than theology determine your experience.”’ The Word tells us to ‘taste and see that the Lord is good’. Which, then, is correct, or rather, which comes first, the Word or the tasting and seeing? What do we see, what do we taste? The Word tells us that it is the Love of God which draws us and saves us. How do we know love without experiencing love? Is love merely a word, or is love something which connects with our humanity, with our emotions, and dare I say it, with our feelings? How do I feel loved? Do I love people in an abstract way, separate from emotion? Does God love us separate from emotion? How then can the Holy Spirit be grieved? Why did Jesus weep? Why did Jesus feel the pain of separation from the Father on the cross? How is it that I look at my children with such a strong and ever-bonding tie of emotion and swelling joy, yet coupled with the fears which surround parents for their children, as they grow up in this challenging yet exciting world? Is that love real love, or do we live by paper and ink love, because it is written. Like joy. Is joy another abstract, or can I experience it. “Is any amongst you merry, let him sing psalms”! What drives you to prayer, praise, worship and adoration before God? My experience confirms my theology. My theology is confirmed through the experiences I have with God. Do I need them to believe? No, but I love the way love expresses itself, to the point of intoxication and addiction. RP is right about love. God is love, in fact. I want to experience God. I yearn for it. The world, if only it knew, hungers for a real connection to God. It wants to know that God is real, not that we believe because it says we have to somewhere. Jesus came into the earth to interact with people. He was sent on the basis of the Love of the Father. He is the Living Word. And he dwelt amongst us. We felt and touched his glory, the glory of the only Son of God.
    ___________________________________

    S&P, I’d like to comment on your assessment if I may, but in another comment.

    ___________________________________

    I don’t know what you’re afraid of with my comments, but the Word says that perfect love casts out fear. It doesn’t talk about casting out the thing you fear, but fear itself, which tries to grip you! Just saying!

    Tom

  26. Thanks for listening, S&P. Hope you don’t give yourself a hard time; there’s no need. They’ve been pretty interesting threads on many levels, with lots of participation and challenges. I think they’ve been worthwhile.

  27. “Sorry Teddy/Greg/Steve, not by the scripture by the anointing).”

    So how do we judge the anointing – by our experience?
    No way, the Bible is still the only standard we can trust. I’ve seen too many whacked out people use that argument!

    This is straight scripture Teddy:

    1 John 2:27
    As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

    You don’t have to like it but you have to accept if you want to believe the whole bible. If you reject this scripture you reject Father’s plan to learn by experiencing him – by being his friend.

    And the anointing is experiential. It is about experiencing Holy Spirit.

    How do we know what is anointing and what is a spirit trying to trick us? There is only faith. Trust that Father is able to lead you and teach you. He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world. You can’t seriously believe that Father is less able to keep his promise that the anointing teaches you all things and that Satan can overcome his promise? Can you?

    You have seen too many whacked out people to believe what Father says to you? I think not.

  28. Franc, good night! Thanks for sharing here. It’s bringing things out of all of us, for us all to examine.

    🙂

  29. Excellent posts all

    There are two points I would like to make.

    The first is a general one, and one I’ve tried to make before but not sure if I have the words for it.

    I’ve known a number of people thru the years who have been blessed by God with gifts and talents who have effectively or totally cut themselves off from accountabilty to “the church” – the body of Christ in any real or meaningful way.

    There have been many reasons for this including all the ones the various version of SP have commented on over the years and will continue to do so. Some have been for selfish reasons, others sin, and others because they have been burned badly. Sometimes the lapse into sin has been because of the other two and just finished the job simply reinforcing already established default perceptions about how church rightly or wrongly treated that individual.

    I increasingly see this as a loss.

    There is also people leaving church because they don’t “experience” Christ in that place so what’s the point of going.

    When those people leave the lose the potential to receive the greater wisdom, accountability, checks and balances that the collective wisdom of, and listening to the Spirit that should be available to us all.

    Part of the railing on SP about churches I think is a way of expressing this loss and absence of what should be a crucial and intrinsic part of church and our “experience” of the body of Christ.

    Teaching and learning the word is a critical part, and so is all the other stuff. An example I think of how this shows out is often people pay to go to counsellors now when once upon a time you would talk to your friends.

    It is a desire of mine to participate in the body of Christ in a particular place where:

    the Word is revered and studied and taught humbly
    the gifts of the Spirit are well exercised, regarded and with due respect, sensitvity and control;

    the people – old fashioned concept – wait on the Holy Spirit expectantly through individual and collective prayer – and as a body rather than a hierachy

    that people are ministered to, and there is an overflowing of Christ to others because of all the other things

    there is correction where necessary given in such a way that that correction is welcomed rather than feared because over time the Spirit of God is seen to be directing this and the overall approach

    must be more

    I hope you get my drift – may be I’m in lala land.

    Often we touch it here and there, but the consistency has been poor.

    The second point I’d like to make is directed at Franc… a suggestion…perhaps only talking out loud.

    It is my experience that we all live and learn differently. Legalists want a definitive road map. Freedom lovers don’t much care for maps. SOme people learn through reading, others by doing, some by seeing touching and tasting. For each of us we each have our own comfort zone, and I think God challenges us from time to time to move out that.

    I’m wondering if you find studying the Word hard work.

    For myself I do, but I am capable of doing it if I put my mind to it (rarely do). But I know I love spending time with people who either have spent the time and talk about it really well, or other people who have experiences of God that I have never had.

    I love listening to people who have put in the work I haven’t.

    I learn from that and expand my own borders. That is prime reason for me to read SP from time to time. I learn stuff here.

    You said that S&P could run rings around you from a Bible point of view.

    Well maybe it would be worthwhile finding some old experienced Christians who really – and I mean really – know there Bible well and absorbing some of that – may be two or three from different places, and not necessarily out of the type of church/fellowhship you would normally attend – but people who both know there stuff, and would welcome you for who you are.

    If this is rubbish, presumptuous or totally crap I will understand.

    I have found wherever I have gone that the different slant presented teaches me something new, shows me I and others don’t know everything, and hopefully allows me to take a less one-eyed approach to things, but one that values getting to the truth.

    I still think there is “the” truth.

    I think this sounds naff, but anyway…

  30. “It is a desire of mine to participate in the body of Christ in a particular place where:
    the Word is revered and studied and taught humbly
    the gifts of the Spirit are well exercised, regarded and with due respect, sensitvity and control;

    the people – old fashioned concept – wait on the Holy Spirit expectantly through individual and collective prayer – and as a body rather than a hierachy”

    I can honestly say mn, that I go to a church that has those qualities that you mentioned. It took me ages to find a church like it, but I finally found one. It’s goal is heart, mind and Spirit – love, truth and scripture for healthy community and healthy self for a healthy relationship with God.

  31. “Well maybe it would be worthwhile finding some old experienced Christians who really – and I mean really – know there Bible well and absorbing some of that – may be two or three from different places, and not necessarily out of the type of church/fellowhship you would normally attend – but people who both know there stuff, and would welcome you for who you are.”

    I agree mn. This would be great for you Franc. I’ve noticed that you are constantly on here st different times of the day. There are some fanatastic articles out there on the web that can help strengthen your wisdom on the gospel and bible.

    If you are more of a practical, then engaging on a forum really does help. One I lurk on is http://www.bibleforums.net . That’s got some solid articles and Christian’s on it. But they also can get controversial quickly.

    By all means hang around and browse through our articles and links. You can see how much we’ve grown up! I can understand if you don’t want to hang around on Signposts02 by the way I’ve treated you. I am sorry about that. But by all means, stay and discuss things with us.

    I frankly think we have a lot in common with church experiences. I’d like to see things from our insight with some of the things we talk about. The thread above this is about basic questions about the gospel message. This last few threads have been specifically about you and the ministry you are involved in, but we all move on and discuss together issues or questions that affect us all.

    We grow by hearing eachother. I learn from you, you learn from mn. Mn learns from heretic and heretic picks up things from me Wazza. You get the point.

    Your call. I wouldn’t mind hearing some of your comments on certain topics.

  32. Heretic – 1 John 2:27

    It’s not telling us we don’t need His Word; it’s not telling us we don’t need those who guide us, because He’s given to the Church apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers,etc. And He has given some the gift of teaching and preaching, so that we can be taught. But it is an assurance that we can know the difference between heresy and the truth regarding the Gospel of Christ, because we possess the Spirit.

    It doesn’t mean we don’t need human teachers. It just means regarding the Gospel, regarding the basic truth of Christ, we can discern by the Holy Spirit’s leading, truth from error.

    A built-in lie detector, so to speak.

  33. I hope Franc joins in on other issues too. He might have some worthwhile fresh perspectives.

    Teddy – speaking in Heretic’s absence – but I dont think he’s trying to say we don’t need scripture. After all, he quoted from scripture. I think you would agree that we can’t dismiss the anointing either, and as 1 John points out, of course the anointing teaches us all things.

    This is my take on things for what its worth:

    The anointing is always with us; we walk in the Holy Spirit when we abide in our Father. I can’t carry a Bible with me at all times and look it up in every situation; neither does it cover every situation that I am in. So I need the anointing on a constant basis as my guide. Scripture is my tutor.

    When I make mistakes or don’t listen to God closely, or let myself get in the way, either the anointing or scripture can bring me back – scripture as quickened by the anointing is most powerful. Sometimes I am uneaasy or upset about something; sometimes that is the anointing alerting me. Then I can turn to scripture to settle things. (And prayer, which helps me with my attitude.)

    There were times when most people couldn’t read or didn’t have much access to scripture, or when they were subjected to false teachings. Yet there must have been those who were born again in there. If they had a walk with Jesus, then despite the above things, they still had the anointing to listen to and to guide them. Perhaps they knew by the anointing when to act in love, rather than according to the false teaching they heard.

    Anyway – that’s the best I can do in a short time. Both scripture and the anointing are important, but without the Holy Spirit, scriptre can be misused by any of us. The better we know it the more clever we can be in its misuse – unless we are listening to the anointing rather than itself.

    BTW – please correct me here, but the Word of God is Jesus isn’t it? Scripture is useful and important, but it is not the ‘Word’. The Word is Who we know by the anointing, and who we learn about through scripture.

  34. MN – I would love a local community of the type you describe. I know its ideal, but still. I think I’ve attended things that at times have approached that. My current informal approach to gathering with friends on a similar path is partly about exploring these ideas – but definitely not about starting anything up.

    I have visited S&P’s church a couple of times – not when he was there, and in fact including before I knew him. I can vouch for what he says about that community! It’s a little far for us to attend on a regular basis with our small kids. But its encouraging to know its there, and there are some gifts there.

  35. Just some thoughts re Franc (and I do know him) – this is an area that calls for caution and wisdom. I would not be encouraging him in any way except perhaps to tell him to seek some wise council and care in the Christian counselling arena. There are some wonderful men (and women)out there specifically trained to guide (even medically) those who travel Franc’s road.

    Speaking from experience, we are not qualified to deal with Franc, I assure you!

  36. I hear you Teddy. Well spoken.

    It’s always good to err on the side of caution and gentleness on the internet when we know so little the participants’ backgrounds, current situation and condition, history or context.

    *********

    It has been an interesting discussion. I might do a post if I can find the time, where we can discuss the tensions in how we approach issues in the church at large and in eachother. It’s a pretty complex subject. I’ll have to put a bit of time into it first, but I was reading some pretty relevant scripture on it last night.

    *********

  37. It was a tutorial.

    “So I need the anointing on a constant basis as my guide. Scripture is my tutor.” – RP, above.

  38. Um – I didn’t mean to agree that we shouldn’t offer Franc personal encouragement. I think we should all hope to encourage one another in God.

    I meant to agree that we should be cautious and wise, and of course that there are things we are not qualified to get too involved in – might do more harm than good.

  39. “I would not be encouraging him in any way … And Franc, if you’re reading anything into my comments apart from love, I’m sorry.”

    Yes lets make it plain that we disapprove of Franc in love. Hmm.

    Personally I was pretty impressed with Franc’s spirit (OK he said nice things about me and that helps [thanks Franc, I blushed 🙂 ]). But Franc showed Jesus and I love that – its not like you see that all the time 😦

    So thank you Franc you shine Jesus and that is all that counts in my book.

    I think it is plain that Franc has spent time with Father and Father has changed him to be more like Jesus. Franc has been hammered on this blog – reviled, slandered, mocked, betrayed and belittled – and he has not turned around and started reviling back or accusing. He has returned blessing for curses at pretty much every point.

    Franc has not tried to big-note himself. He has conducted himself humbly pretty much most of the time. What is the fruits of the spirit again, did we see them? What has he demonstrated? Love (yes) joy (yes) peace (yes even under extreme provocation) patience (yes) kindness (yes) goodness (I am not sure what this is) faithfulness (long term thing) gentleness (yes) self-control (yes).

    And what was the result from us? Pretty much verbal crucifixion. Interesting actually, this is what happened to Jesus too. Bull’s stoning scripture was apt indeed 😦

    Jesus said leadership is serving. If Franc is going to serve people I think people will see Jesus in Franc and be attracted to Father. I think that is what we all want.

    Be encouraged Franc – Father is at work in you for sure. You might not please men but I’ll bet you are pleasing Father. And really what else matters? 🙂

  40. Franc

    for myself reading your posts I got the impression that you have been through a lot, and may be still going through it.

    While I may not agree with some of the things you said, or even understand where you were coming from sometimes – I don’t think I have any real understanding of your circumstances – my reading was that you are a brother in Christ and you have submitted and made yourself vulnerable to Him and others. May He complete that ongoing work in you and the rest of us

    Perhaps something for all of us at this point is David’s prayer at Ps 139:

    Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

  41. “Franc has been hammered on this blog – reviled, slandered, mocked, betrayed and belittled – and he has not turned around and started reviling back or accusing. He has returned blessing for curses at pretty much every point.”

    I agree. I was pretty tough with him. 😦

    What I found hard was that I invited him hear so we can discuss here what Fire It Up is all about.

    He pretty much came on here and didn’t do that. To me, and maybe he didn’t mean this, he paraded love, Jesus and other things as a form of scape-goat to be an excuse to not answer the questions asked or inform us how he approaches ministering and serving others.

    That’s something I was expecting politicians to do, not someone like Franc. It saddened me when I saw him do this early on. But When Franc belittled me (and others because he was God) by using LOVE as a weapon to do so, I thought that was down-right manipulative. It is gnosticism he used in that instant to exalt himself, and belittle me and others. I am sure of it.

    You said he demonstrated the fruits of love. I saw something quite different, until he persisted in mending his error. I believe he is sincerely in love with Jesus, but as Teddy now has stated:

    “Speaking from experience, we are not qualified to deal with Franc, I assure you!”

    What’s been really hard for me is how to approach Franc in light of everyone. I saw Franc’s faults and I did my best to push them aside in a time to understand his views (RP style). Maybe my frustration and disappointment got the better of me. Don’t know.
    And then suddenly I kicked in to a mode of exposing the serious problems and concerns I saw in the previous thread (Greg & possibly Teddy style).

    Do I love Franc Manhattan. With an utmost resounding YES I DO! Have I forgiven him? I believe so. I have moved on. But I don’t know if I should regret what I have written or not.

    I felt motivated to write my response for my love for Franc and for the people he ministers too. Part of the reason why I wrote this too is that I was actually a bit concerned that if we stuck to the other thread, it would get ugly. If I started a new thread to critique the previous one, I thought too much negative ammunition would be fired off at Franc.

    I thought I would be strong with Manhattan at least so that some other’s verbal ammunition would not be even more offensive to Manhattan. I did delete Greg’s comments on the other thread and was fearing worser one’s from him and others. I am just glad he agreed with me and that was it.

    I knew where he was coming from and I’m glad he thinks I did the right thing. I thought it would be a merging of RP’s approach and Greg’s approach. The two extremes.

    The way I wrote it, I thought it was dramatic but not overtly cold and offensive. I made claims of what had happened, corrected him in areas he was wrong in and let him know that I was concerned for him.

    Franc, if you are reading this. God bless you! I am incredibly sorry if I have hurt you further with my comments. Not my intention. My intention is to see you be a wonderful and an accountable person in ministry. I hope you see that too.

    After all this, I hope you have felt my prayers. You are in them, and I pray whatever you are going through, you grow through them fast into the person God wants you to be.

    If it’s truly Jesus and not man you are concerned about, may Jesus take you back and break off all those things in your past life that have anything to do with the New Age and occult practices. May they just drop off, and may the Holy Spirit fill those places where darkness use to be. May His love be discovered in your early memories as a child going all the way through your adolescent time period.

    If you have truly confessed that Jesus is first, then may he be Lord of Your mind, will, spirit and your history.

  42. “for myself reading your posts I got the impression that you have been through a lot, and may be still going through it.”

    yeah. me too. escaping… bliss…

  43. Heretic –
    “I would not be encouraging him in any way … And Franc, if you’re reading anything into my comments apart from love, I’m sorry.”

    Yes lets make it plain that we disapprove of Franc in love. Hmm.”

    I was referring to my previous comment about seeking counsel. This upsets me because of the history I have with this gentleman!

  44. It’s notable that even though we all set out to look at the ministry and its practices, we’ve ended up scrutinising the person, and trying to figure out his heart and motives, which we can never know for sure, especially on a blog. Those who have met him may have some extra knowledge of any personal issues, or may have other obstacles preventing them from hearing him. Legitimate or not – who can tell on a blog?

    The one thing we haven’t really done, is focus on the ministry – I feel I know almost as little about it as I did at the start.

    The main thing this thread has shown me is the rocky ground involved in dealing with actual people, and how it throws our own walks and attitudes under the microscope. That has been worthwhile.

    Finally:

    We must be careful not to murder:
    James 5:6
    6You have condemned and have murdered the righteous (innocent man), [while] he offers no resistance to you.

    We are all righteous in Jesus. So we must not murder one another in discussions.

  45. RP: “It’s notable that even though we all set out to look at the ministry and its practices, we’ve ended up scrutinising the person”

    I’m not sure that it is always possible to exclude the person from the equation.

    I agree it is possible to attack the person, but if we want to understand the ministry in most cases I think the person comes into it.

    In the case of Jesus, it is quite likely He wouldn’t have been crucified or had the effect on the world that He has had except for the fact that He claimed to be the Son of God and Divine.

    And you know our views on that is where the rubber starts to hit the road.

  46. By this I mean looking at a person doesn’t mean we have to personally attack them.

    Also often whether something is percieved as an “attack” will vary from one person to another.

  47. “……all I have been doing has been hammering him about his so called ministry…and whose fault is it that you know as little about it as you did at the start? Franc’s…” – Greg

    ‘…hammering…’ – ‘…so-called ministry…’

    Exactly my point. That kind of thing typically doesn’t encourage anyone to answer questions.

    It became clear that we weren’t going to get clear answers about the _ministry_. But the ‘hammering’ continued. Can’t force anyone to answer what they either don’t want to or can’t answer.

    Also.

    S&P has apologised so I’m only revisiting this to make a point to Greg. Initially, S&P put up a list of 10 points. The first point was that Franc hadn’t really answered the questions. That was a valid observation.

    The other 9 points were personal observations of the man’s character, with no specific evidence given to back them up. S&P regrets this. Greg, you supported this when you said ‘Well written S&P’. Those things did not focus on the ministry but on the man. It was like lining up for the stoning.

    As MN said, it is hard to separate the person from the ministry.

    In this case we have no new information on the ministry, and a series of comments from the person describing his personal experience. We weren’t really able to connect the two clearly from what we heard here. Or at least no attempt to analyse any connections was made – probably just as well. Possibly connections could be made by looking up other sources.

    We understand from Teddy that there are other factors at play, and that makes it inadvisable to continue to ‘advise’ Franc.

    I really didn’t think Franc was invited here so that we could ‘advise’ him, but rather to answer our questions. Why were we offering advice in that context, such as a command to ‘repent’. That shows no willingness to try to understand an issue at all.

    Only God can really call a person to repent, as much as we might feel they need to. How will that approach be construed except as a personal attack?? Unless we actually have a personal relationship with them where our concern will be understood.

    As if anyone will come on here, believing their approach to be valid, then hear us say, ‘Repent’ and then go ‘Oh – OK then. I didn’t realise’. No, they will come here hoping to explain their view or themselves, or to oppose us (but the latter didn’t happen this time).

    I think that Teddy has usefully pointed out that we are not in a position to understand the context around Franc, whatever that is, based on her own knowledge – whatever that is. All the more reason to be gentle if we can in how we approach people, if I am right about her concerns. (Which maybe I am not.)

    I not suggesting we don’t examine ministries, raise questions, search scriptures, or take no notice when ‘bad fruit’ clearly emerges from a ministry. But when we have a guest, we should be respectful even when we disagree, and realistic about what will be helpful or not.

    I agree with MN that we can look at a person without personally attacking them. Definitely what we perceive as ‘attack’ varies.

  48. “Initially, S&P put up a list of 10 points. The first point was that Franc hadn’t really answered the questions. That was a valid observation.

    The other 9 points were personal observations of the man’s character, with no specific evidence given to back them up. ”

    Wow. I didn’t see them as personal attacks but an accurate claim on his actions on here. I saw his actions to be manipulative and through that manipulation, the gnostic strain coming through.

    I personally concluded that in the position that he was in, if anyone from his ministry approached him on issues or concerns, would he treat them the same way he treated us. After reading all that he is said, most likely. His approach to our questions from t he very beginning, I thought, revealed that.

    If you want, I can go through and show you where I thought these claims were valid. I thought what I wrote following after the 10 points revealed these claims.

    This raises an interesting dilemma for me. If you ‘attack’ someone’s ministry or ‘attacking’ their actions, does that mean I am PERSONALLY attacking them? Thinking about it now, I would say yes.

    To me this is a huge statement in how important character really is when one is stepping into a position of authority in church ministry.

  49. Sorry S&P – we will just have to disagree. I know you have your reasons. I don’t want you to go through them, as that could become cruel.

    I did not feel badly treated by Franc. He didn’t answer questions; that’s a shame, but it didn’t hurt me. He did not manipulate me or try to get me to do anything . I don’t know him. I’m not going to make harsh judgements about him. I think it is best if we stop talking about him.

    I don’t think that we should ‘ATTACK’ anything. I think we should EXAMINE things, especially when the Holy Spirit makes us uneasy about them. Ask a lot of questions. Do it in humility knowing that we might be wrong ourselves. Look at scripture to see if the ministry practices are in accord or not. Is the teaching dangerous or not? Is there verification of miracles? Are there manipulative practices? (Miracle offerings etc). Are there control characteristics? What is the tone of the ministry?

    “This raises an interesting dilemma for me. If you ‘attack’ someone’s ministry or ‘attacking’ their actions, does that mean I am PERSONALLY attacking them? Thinking about it now, I would say yes.”

    I would say – not necessarily. For example, I strongly disagree with a lot of what Phil Pringle teaches, and I will oppose those particular doctrines. But I am not the judge of Phil Pringle. I have no actual knowledge of his heart. It would be very presumptuous of me.

    You may say that you think Fire it Up ministries is dangerous, deluded or whatever. Personally, I do have concerns based on what I’ve seen on their website and the videos. These are things that we can discuss, and they are in the public forum. However, to say that Franc the person is all the things above is character assassination, particularly in a public forum. But I thought you had regrets over that.

    He was a guest here, we invited him in., and then he was vilified. I know you regret that.

    I agree with your comment re character in church ministry. Blessings.

  50. S&P – I believe you can oppose by exposing using scripture and scriptural standards of behaviour. Every situation has its own nuances. I guess you’d call me a non-violent protestor. (Or you might just call me wrong. Ah well.)

  51. I think “vilified” is a bit harsh. Franc chose to reveal things about himself and this is a public forum. When I reveal things about what I believe, I get strong opposing views. I have to take that on the chin.

    I’m still fascinated that the “fireitup ministry” is given any credibility. I’ll openly call it as I see it – heretical.

  52. Greg – I thought you would. So be it.

    Teddy, not all posts vilified him. But don’t we owe guests a courtesy when we invite them here saying that the environment will be ‘safe’? We didn’t say, come here and cop it on the chin.

    As for the ministry – fair enough to call that as we each see it, and to give good reasons for the call.

  53. Where do we start with the good reasons – that starts up another “well, you’re just calling it as you see it?”

    My concern here is “isn’t it …… obvious!” 🙂

  54. Well, yes its obvious why we’d be concerned. We do need to be able to explain, even when it seems obvious. Is it clearly wrong being ‘drunk in the Spirit’ any time or place, or is it OK in a more careful context? Maybe we are wrong, and someone could jump in and enlighten us, and we might find out some aspect that we are missing. Plus an examination of the doctrines on the Fire It Up website has more of interest than just ‘drunkenness’, and its not unique to them. (I’m thinking of the giving into a ministry and therefore receiving some effect from its ‘mantle’ for example.)

  55. No win conversation.

    There are lines which as always tend to move around a bit.

    S&P did invite Franc and Matt on here in an environs of mutual respect.

    I think that line was crossed on a couple of occasions. To get or request information one doesn’t have to hammer – that is a choice, and reveals more about the mind set of the inquisitor than the inquisee (new word).

    Tell the truth Greg – you were always going to hammer Franc – you simply couldn’t let the chance go by – and you never made the offer that S&P did anyway so that is a good out

    Occupational hazard though to some extent.

    For me often I would rather here what people have to say and then chew on it for while – but we all have our different trigger points – I certainly have mine.

    As I say there are lines and I thought that they were crossed at some points.

    But this is where I have abet each way, and have to differ with RP in some respects.

    Sometimes the right thing to do is call a spade a shovel, and let it out. A reference…did I hear someone call for a reference??

    Paul:

    Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.

    Interesting juxtaposition isn’t it!

    Talk of emasculation and love within the same para.

    As I say there are lines, but perhaps the best thing to do is to caution to take caution!

    Otherwise we’ll just keep going round and round.

    Anyone for another round?

  56. Well, did we ever hear from Matt? Is this just a “ministry” looking for like-minded “drinkers” to help (administrate/establish) their site (aka Franc)?
    Testing the waters, so to speak? There’s little or no information of substance there.

    Loved the Malachi 3:10 used to encourage partnering with them. Aaaaargh!!!!

  57. Those who indulge in spiritual drunkenness (or any other form of occultism or apostasy, of course) will, as they continually give themselves over to satanic experience, become increasingly blind—in particular, their hearts will be hardened to the Word and they will be increasingly disabled from understanding it. The Scriptures will become to them as a book shut and sealed. Their understanding will be darkened and darkened. Hear Isaiah describe this:

    Pause and wonder! Blind yourselves and be blind! They are drunk, but not with wine; They stagger, but not with intoxicating drink. For the Lord has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers. The whole vision [revelation] has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, “Read this, please.” And he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.”

    They cannot. The life-giving Word of God is sealed to them. They simply cannot understand His truth and the meaning of the Scriptures. They have fallen in with the father of lies, and there they have made their bed

  58. The above was from an article on the “drunk in the spirit” phenomena. The reference Isaiah 29:9-12.I hit the comment button too soon.

    This is addressed to Israel, can we make application to current events?

  59. Thanks MN.

    The most significant problem in the Western church today is a lack of knowledge of the Bible.

    Either a lack of understanding of the context, or a “can’t be bothered” attitude to reading it.

    A number of people tried to get Charismatics (Holy Spirit) and Evangelicals (Word) together. They have partially succeeded. However, the sacrifice has been largely Biblical Knowledge.

    It’s become so bad now that Emergent types like Rob Bell essentially dismiss Bible Knowledge as they are now post-evangelical. They want to be spiritual so they become new-age in the process.

    It’s tragic. I wish it wasn’t true. The Emergent stream is introducing the majority of dodgy teachings into the church in these days. There are no absolutes now … it’s all relative.

    We are all supposed to become the new mystics. Franc and Matt are right up to date in the emergent church.

    The idea was to adopt eastern mystical practices to be spiritual. However the big obstacle to that is the absolutism of the Bible. So the Bible gets dimissed or ‘reinterpreted’ 220669

  60. ack!

    The Bible was ‘reinterpreted’ by Eugene Paterson. The Message Bible is incredibly New Age.

    The Lord’s Prayer has been trashed. No longer does Jesus teach His disciples to say “Hallowed be Your name.”

    Instead of “Your Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven” we now have the New Age mantra “As above, so below.”

    It is no coincidence that the very wishy-washy paraphrase of “The Message” is used almost exclusively by Rick Warren in his Porpoise-driven life book.

    All the new-agers … sorry, emergent leaders act as if their interpretation of Scripture is so much better than Tozer, Spurgeon, Wesley, Calvin, Luther … And even have a better insight into Jesus than John, Peter, James and Paul.

    Of course the emergent stream is nothing but a growing fad. There’ll be some other thing in 5 to 10 years time, assuming Jesus doesn’t come back first.

    Prominent new-age leaders who are pushing emergent ideas onto an unsuspecting church.

    Leonard Sweet
    Brian McLaren
    … add to this list as you see fit.

    Prominent “Evangelicals” who promote new-age ideas in the church.
    Eugene M. Paterson (I nearly put him in the above list)
    Rick Warren
    Rob Bell (In Velvet Elvis, Bell pushes new-age gurus and their books … Rob has moved away from the Bible … doesn’t trust it anymore apparently)

    This list will go on and on.

  61. GregTE “What a crock of bullshit…where was he slandered? Where was he mocked and betrayed or belittled or even reviled?”

    slandered: “He is bitter and religious”, “He is a manipulator” etc

    mocked: “And you can’t string a coherent sentence together.”

    betrayed: asked to talk on the guise he would not be attacked and then attacked

    belittled: “And you can’t string a coherent sentence together.”

    reviled: I think there is lots of contemptuous language in these posts

  62. I like the Isaiah scripture Teddy – that’s worth another read, I think.

    MN, I like that scripture from Paul – its pretty funny I think. Maybe his humour softened what he was saying somewhat? Anyway, I read it as humour.

    As for calling a spade a shovel – yes, we should. I think we shouldn’t be too quick to be sure of ourselves sometimes – for example, I think tithe teaching is false teaching (heresy being the more emotive term), but took a while to study and come to that conclusion. What do I then say about those who teach it? I know there are those who teach it who in other aspects teach lots of good things, or have a close walk with God. But in this thing they are in my view teaching falsehood. Easier then to just oppose the teaching.

    In terms of experiential stuff, we have to be very careful, because people read the same experience in different ways. What if someone really did look as though they were drunk when touched by the Holy Spirit? It’s possible – that mistake was made by non-believers watching the disciples at Pentecost. But Peter was pretty quick to clear up their misunderstanding.

    I think we can be pretty sure that being ‘drunk’ in a parallel fashion to an actual drunk is not brought on by the Holy Spirit, but by people’s desire for that phenomenon – that’s because of the distancing that Peter did from that at Pentecost and because of other scriptures that talk of self-control and order in using the gifts. There is certainly no force involved as that would be against the nature of God revealed in scripture. But its possible that there are some times when people may be legitimately experiencing the Holy Spirit, where onlookers would say they were drunk. I think scripture shows that it is not an allusion to be encouraged.

    The only exception that I can imagine might be if there is a ministry to drug addicts. But I don’t think that is what is taking place in this drunken movement. I’d be interested if I was wrong about that. Even so, it shouldn’t then be marketed in that fashion to everyone, not just because of scripture references, but because of the insensitivity towards those who have tragedies in their families related to that struggle.

    Sometimes I am reminded of the picture of the old hag, which when looked at another way, looks like an attractive young woman. Being cautious is good. Not everything that looks like a weed at first glance is, and not everything that looks like a good plant is either. Perhaps I am too cautious.

  63. Bull

    MJ complimented your post not me.

    What was that about a can’t be bothered attitude to reading??? 🙂

  64. ohhh!

    get your handbags out!

    😛

    Thanks MJ!

    Quite true, I couldn’t be arsed!

    My blase’ attitude shines through …

    Time for coffee … it brings out the mean sarcastic nasty Bull, as you all know too well. It’s also good for waking up a little bit.

    Shalom

  65. RP: “Sometimes I am reminded of the picture of the old hag, which when looked at another way, looks like an attractive young woman.”

    YIKES! An add popped up on my hotmail account with that exact image less then 5 seconds ago! That is so spooky!

    That must have been the anointing!

    Heretic: “slandered: “He is bitter and religious”, “He is a manipulator” etc”

    By the way… Facelift is being a joke. He’s pretending to be ‘Major Tom’ and acting in a different character. Would it be slanderous for me to say that he is a manipulator?

    Not trying to be a smart arse here. When is it considered valid to label someone for what they are?

    Also, because of the focus on Fire It Up Ministries and the recent dialogue with Manhattan, I thought I would let people know head’s up what articles I’m writing:

    1. What is the Gospel? √
    2. What is the Anointing? √
    3. Doctrine of Demons – What Are They?
    4. The Results Of Escaping – Lack Of Growth
    5. Plato’s Poison
    6. Drunk On Wine; High on Toking; Blissed On Ecstasy
    7. Crowder’s Finger Prints Down Under
    8. Pastors – On The Stake Or At The Stake
    9. Come Like A Rushing Wind – Understanding the Confusion of Hyper-Churched-People
    10. The Blasphemer’s Pawns – America’s Invasion Using Gullible Australian Christian’s
    11. The Masquerade of Light and It’s Masqueraders

    I’ve got my work set out for me…

  66. “I think we can be pretty sure that being ‘drunk’ in a parallel fashion to an actual drunk is not brought on by the Holy Spirit, but by people’s desire for that phenomenon”

    Ravingpente, I have been “drunk” in the Spirit on many occasions. I have never been drunk on alcohol, so I don’t know how it compares with what I feel when I am under the anointing, but I seriously slur my words, sway on my feet, walk in slow motion and swerve all over the road driving home. Not once have I desired these manifestations for their own sake, but instead have just opened my spirit up to allow God to do what He wants in me. I guess unless you have experienced this type of manifestation it is easy to dismiss it or be frightened of it. But by no means are these manifestations demonic. They can however, as has been mentioned here previously, be copied and done in a fleshly manner.

  67. S&P, I’m beginning to think you don’t like me. I have written at least four posts that haven’t been put up, yet it seems that everyone else’s inane posts are being let through. What’s the deal?

  68. who is Franc Manhattan? I agree alot of people, in the charismatic movement, don’t study the Bible.

    I was lucky when I became “Born of spirit” that an older relative, gave me a NT and said just read it, meditate on it and i could ask him questions, and sometimes search the scriptures together if he wasn’t sure, and ask other “elders”.

    Sure one has moments where it’s more spiritual, mystical even but generally I found it was getting to the truth that opened my eyes.

  69. That’s pretty funny about the hag/young woman picture, S&P.

    “When is it considered valid to label someone for what they are?”

    If you are commenting publically in a negative way, then usually when they’ve been to court and been convicted by an impartial jury based on actual evidence.

    Otherwise, you’d better be clear that its just your opinion, or have very strong proof to back it up.

    That’s if you want to avoid potential lawsuits.

    I have no problem saying that I think Steve Munsey is extremely deluded or is cynically conning people, for example, and that he is a highly inappropriate speaker for CCC’s conferences, and here is a link to a website which puts the case for this very well:

    http://biblelight.net/god_is_fixin_to.htm

    I have no problem saying that the fact he’s been back to C3 twice now, makes me seriously doubt the good shepherding of whoever approved the invitation, and think that they also must be either very deluded or highly cynical about their flock.

    But perhaps others would put the same sentiment more strongly.

    But Mr Munsey has not been convicted of anything illegal in a court I guess, so it is just my opinion based on what I’ve seen.

  70. “But Mr Munsey has not been convicted of anything illegal in a court I guess, so it is just my opinion based on what I’ve seen.”

    But courts can’t say someone’s faith is wrong, legally. So only time will reveal, in a bad way, their evil.

    Accusations or proclamations of someones evil surely have their place. For some reason, Paul had the right to rebuke Peter shamefully in front of the Jerusalem church. Paul shamed the Galatian, Roman and Corinth churches for their follies.

    Jesus and the prophets all exposed those not being faithful. It’s the typical response.

    But if you look at their audiences response, the courts were corrupted and used against those that spoke against the powers that were.

    It’s like the huckster or those playing 50/50 know they can’t be caught.

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