What is the Anointing?

If Manhattan is around, maybe he can add his wisdom to bring understanding to what the ‘anointing’ is.

One thing that seems to lack in ministries is the ‘anointing’ some might say. It didn’t really get mentioned in the bible.

Once again, we all have different backgrounds and experiences. So…

1. What is the ‘Anointing’ to you?
2. How do you apply the ‘Anointing’s’ in your church meetings?
3. How does it/He work?
4. What goes and what follows – the ‘anointing’ or us?
5. Is someone less Christ-like/immature/dis-empowered/worthless if they are ignorant of the ‘anointing’?

Interested to hear what people have to say about this. I’ve got another thread discussion coming up soon. All these articles are based on the arrival of Franc and his world of ministry. He left me with a few things I think are worth discussing.


79 thoughts on “What is the Anointing?

  1. The definition for anoint/anointing is ‘to smear’.

    dictionary.com has the following definitions:

    a·noint (ə-noint’)
    tr.v. a·noint·ed, a·noint·ing, a·noints

    1. To apply oil, ointment, or a similar substance to.
    2. To put oil on during a religious ceremony as a sign of sanctification or consecration.
    3. To choose by or as if by divine intervention.

  2. I am aware of the doctrines of being ‘slain in the spirit’ are they the same thing? There is also a concept of the ‘anointing’ being in the flow, on the go and moving now…

    Now I am aware of psychic punches being related to ‘being slain in the spirit’,

    and I am aware of the kundalini teachings and spirit in relation to moving under the ‘anointing’.

    These are real things and I think they are important to compare against these recent concepts of ‘anointing’ and ‘slain in the spirit’.

    A quick excerpt from a this fanstic article found here:

    http://charismaticchaos.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/kundalini-spirit/

    The Distributors of the Power

    “Anyone on fire” can give shaktipat, i.e. anyone who’s kundalini is already awakened. The more relevant question is: “Who should give shaktipat?”…

    Who can give Shakti-pat?: anyone who has received the ability from the guru or one of his disciples.

    Who can administer the “anointing”: anyone who has received it from a person already “anointed”

    How one receives Kundalini Awakening: Through the laying-on-of-hands during “Shakti-pat” initiation

    How one receives this “”anointing””: Through the laying-on-of hands called an impartation by someone.

  3. Thanks Teddy, I enjoyed the article.

    But then I would as it supports everything I have been saying about the anti-intellectualism pervading the church today.

    Shalom

  4. I think I would disagree with is. The church is called the Anointed or the Anointed Ones.

    I’ve often referred the Holy Spirit with the name Anointing. But I think it is now inappropriate to label it as such. I don’t feel it is right anymore for me personally. It reduces the character and person of the Holy Spirit too much for me.

    I would like to know when the concept of the ‘anointing’ was birthed in the church. I have heard it used to promote idolatry at churches. I have seen it coveted as well. Why would the Holy Spirit (‘Anointing’), drive people to covet Him/It?

    This is the only area of the bible I know where the Holy Spirit is associated with the Anointing. But I think it is a bit of a leap to conclude that the ‘Holy One’ being talked about here is the Holy Spirit. To me the Holy Spirit is a person, not an ‘it’ as the ‘anointing’ is associated to be. To me, the ‘Holy One’ is referring to Jesus.

    See what you think:

    KJV – 1Jo 2:20 –
    But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

    NKJV – 1Jo 2:20 –
    But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.*
    Footnote: * NU-Text reads you all know.

    NLT – 1Jo 2:20 –
    But you are not like that, for the Holy Spirit has come upon you,* and all of you know the truth.
    Footnote: * Greek But you have an anointing from the Holy One.

    NIV – 1Jo 2:20 –
    But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.*
    Footnote: * Some manuscripts and you know all things

    ESV – 1Jo 2:20 –
    But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.*
    Footnote: * Some manuscripts you know everything

    NASB – 1Jo 2:20 –
    But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.

    RSV – 1Jo 2:20 –
    But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know.

    ASV – 1Jo 2:20 –
    And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and ye know all the things.

    YNG – 1Jo 2:20 –
    And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and have known all things;

    DBY – 1Jo 2:20 –
    And *ye* have [the] unction from the holy [one], and ye know all things.

    WEB – 1Jo 2:20 –
    But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

    HNV – 1Jo 2:20 –
    You have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know the truth.

    KJV – 1Jo 2:27 –
    But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    NKJV – 1Jo 2:27 –
    But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will* abide in Him.
    Footnote: * NU-Text reads you abide.

    NLT – 1Jo 2:27 –
    But you have received the Holy Spirit,* and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you all things, and what he teaches is true–it is not a lie. So continue in what he has taught you, and continue to live in Christ.
    Footnote: * Greek the anointing.

    NIV – 1Jo 2:27 –
    As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit–just as it has taught you, remain in him.

    ESV – 1Jo 2:27 –
    But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything—and is true and is no lie, just as it has taught you—abide in him.

    NASB – 1Jo 2:27 –
    As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

    RSV – 1Jo 2:27 –
    but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.

    ASV – 1Jo 2:27 –
    And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

    YNG – 1Jo 2:27 –
    and you, the anointing that ye did receive from him, in you it doth remain, and ye have no need that any one may teach you, but as the same anointing doth teach you concerning all, and is true, and is not a lie, and even as was taught you, ye shall remain in him.

    DBY – 1Jo 2:27 –
    and *yourselves*, the unction which ye have received from him abides in you, and ye have not need that any one should teach you; but as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    WEB – 1Jo 2:27 –
    But the anointing which ye have received from him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man should teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you concerning all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    HNV – 1Jo 2:27 –
    As for you, the anointing which you received from him remains in you, and you don’t need for anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, you will remain in him.

  5. I have found some interesting things over the years.
    Before I gave my life to God and My savior became Jesus I looked at things like Reiki, and I was a practitioner. I aslo experimented with this phenomena and was visited by a GURU in the spirit who wanted me to join with them, probably in India. Which I did not want to do as I thought it was not for me and it felt worldly and what I was looking for was not of this world.
    I developed an ability to release a type of “anointing” onto people and they would go to sleep or become unconscious for a period of time. People would be healed from various things. The Reiki leaders said that what I was moving in was not Reiki. Various things would occur where I learned the Reiki master levels without having to pay the price. Saved thousands.
    When I started visiting churches I watched how they did what they did.
    They would take the spiritual substance which was given them by the people and channel it back to them and they would fall down etc. I didnt consider this to be the HS at all, and still dont. This method is used all round the world by performers of all types.
    Of course I have since come out of agreement with anything connected with these groups from the past.
    The anointing which the bible is talking about is in the new testament called CHRIST is “the ANOINTING” which is provided only by one spirit and that of course is the HS, the same spirit that was in heaven with the Father, who was sent after jesus returned to Heaven.
    How can we tell the difference between the anointing of one spirit to another.
    There must be counterfeits and those counterfeits can bring a variety of signs and wonders with it, as well as feelings etc.

  6. It says that we have been sealed into the Anointing. The Anointing is our gateway into the spirit. Through Jesus, the Anointed one. Access to the father, and all that jesus had access to.
    I personally think that this Q is the best Q to do with what is available for us.
    The problem faced is how do we tell the difference between the various spirits.

  7. The HS likes to work with us but is not interested in being instructed.
    he likes to be allowed. He likes us to do as he says by his leading.
    he is not interested and will remove his presence, when we do not listen, are prideful, manipulating, controlling.
    If we are prepared to allow him to be the leading then it seems to work very well.
    Corporate anointing is similar but with more people in unity with him and eager for him to flow, putting aside ourselves for more of him, like our ministry, its his ministry, HE KNOWS. Its an agreement which can be easily broken, only by us.
    This of course is different from what is in our own spirit, which is still Jesus.
    We need to be changed by the BORN AGAIN of the spirit, growing up in him, on the milk and onto solid foods. The NEW BIRTH is also growing up in him just like in normal life. Changed but still being perfected.
    Any way this is Just what I have learnt over the years from him.
    Notice that Scripture had to come from people who developed a relationship with God and through faith were able to believe that they had the right authority to say that they were and Apostle. Given by God not man.
    Paul knew the scriptures very well but he had to meet Jesus and the HS to know who he was.

  8. “When Pentecostals refer to the Anointing I tend to think (and this is coming from one who has been involved previously in a pente type church)that they are referring to a special a special impartation of approval and power from God…The Holy Spirit isn’t the anointing but is the agent of the anointing” – Greg

    Yes, that is pretty much the way it was taught to me in Pente churches, and the way it is thought of. It is as though the anointing is a special substance from but separate to the Person of the Holy Spirit.

    Personally, I think the anointing is the Holy Spirit, and he empowers us in different ways, which we think of at times as different anointings, but they are just different aspects of the same Spirit, just as we all have different aspects to our personalities and list of abilities.

    I think Jesus made it clear that the anointing who teaches us all things, is the Holy Spirit:

    Jesus speaking in John 14:26:
    “…26 But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”

  9. “t is as though the anointing is a special substance from but separate to the Person of the Holy Spirit. ”

    …that was how the teaching often came across, but I think you’d find a mixture of opinion among Pentecostals, some of whom would just say the anointing is the Holy Spirit, and some of whom would say the anointing is like a separate substance, practically tangible, gifted by the Holy Spirt for a purpose.

  10. I would humbly say that the Anointing can only refer to the Holy Spirit.

    Having said that, Jesus was the ‘Anointed One’. It implies Kingship Authority. Saul was anointed king, David was, Solomon was. Jesus is the ‘son of David’. The one who inherits the Kingdom of Israel.

    Unfortunately, ‘the Anointing’ inevitably leads us to a 2 tier or multi-tier christianity. Those who have it and those who don’t.

    I am grateful to Franc for sharing aspects on this topic. Credit where it is due. I would be very interested to know more of his testimony regarding his history and his journey from darkness to light. I can see how Abba Father would use Franc to reach others in the occult …

    Tell us more Franc.

    ======================================================
    As an aside … (sorry, I don;t know where to ask the question otherwise!) … I attended a C3 church on Sunday.
    Observations: Offering talk based on Abraham and Melchizadek. Didn’t say everyone had to give 10% but used it more as a moral example for everyone to follow. VERY large baskets handed round.
    Praise and Worship: Didn’t know the songs. 😦
    The songs lacked any kind of theological depth at all. 😦
    Organisation: First rate. Really excellent. Kids work looks outstandingly well organised. Can’t judge the content of course.
    Sermon: Pretty good pep talk. (Can’t stand pep talks :P)

    Why do I bring this up? Well … I had a vision. I was at the back and looked around at the worshipers. They began to disappear before my eyes! The people thinned out by around 50% … I was shaken but couldn’t bring myself to tell anyone.

    I have no idea what it means either. As a glanced around, people would reappear while others disappeared, but the overall numbers were the same. People phased in and out as I moved my eyes.

    Any idea what this means? I trust the vision but not my interpretation. I believe it is for someone else to interpret.

    I intend to write to the Pastor there … I believe it is just for that fellowship, not the movement as a whole but as I write this I realise I am interpreting again.

    I say again, I do not have a clue what this means.

    Shalom

  11. i find bulls vision accurate. People coming and going. This has been a condition ccc has had for many years. The anointing on the church is for leaders and churches. People move on.
    If they retained people they would be the biggest church in australia.
    For the HS anointing I would agree that it is the only spirit that the bible is referring to. I find though that most churches only allow the Anointing in rarely. This is because it isnt easy focusing on the HS when worldly distractions seem to take over. Very few minister from it.
    Motivational speaking is not HS. Hype is not HS. We are not HS. There will be manifestations when the HS turns up. WinD, FIRE, Peace etc.
    Ravingpleanty…. the substance they refer to is not the HS.
    The HS is in fact the 3rd person. intelligent, timely, patient, yet I dont think he is a gentleman like people say, as he will leave just as fast as he came in without warning.

  12. Bull, I agree that ‘the anointing’ can only refer to the Holy Spirit. Maybe the teaching on this in some churches is not very clear. What do you think about anointing people with oil – is this symbolic; does it help people’s faith, or do you think people believe that there is some special property in the oil?

    ***********
    Re your C3 visit – interesting re the offering talk. Maybe they aren’t taking the tithe teaching quite as far as some others, though still using the general idea… Re pep talks – that would be a typical, positive, overcoming tone to the message, I am guessing, which was the norm at PP’s church when I went there.

    An intriguing vision. I’ll pray that someone can interpret that and that the Pastor would receive what ever is intended by it when you share it with him.

  13. Oh Franc – I posted before I saw your reply. Bull, does that make sense at all?

    The condition Franc speaks of is true locally here, for two reasons: sometimes people are encouraged to leave and plant new churches which is an integral part of the C3 vision; other times it is churn, where quite a lot of people stay for a while then move on to other existing churches for various reasons. There has been a lot of churn at CCCOF in the past, but not necessarily at every other C3.

  14. Cool vision Bull. Did the numbers stay roughly the same or in the vision were they exactly the same – that is – one appears one disappears.

  15. Bull:

    Unfortunately, ‘the Anointing’ inevitably leads us to a 2 tier or multi-tier christianity. Those who have it and those who don’t.

    This is a pretty important question I think. Is the anointing an event that one looks back to (as per David being anointed King)? Is it something that believer can have or not have.

    Some claim it is a one-off event. I recall my ex-pastor telling me he knew best because he was anointed for this purpose. His is a past-tense kind of concept.

    But the anointing cannot be a past tense thing because something that happened in the past cannot teach you all things. If the anointing is in the past it cannot teach you anything tomorrow.

    My understanding is that the anointing is what we experience when we knowingly interact with the HS. As RP quoted from Jn 14

    26″But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

    Clearly both the anointing and the HS teach us all things so when HS does is teaching us that is the anointing.

    You generally know when someone is teaching you something. Being taught is an experience. Therefore the anointing is what you experience when HS is teaching you.

    There are no two layers about it 🙂

  16. The vision basically had people popping in and out of existence or phasing in and out quite quickly.

    If I kept my head and eyes still it was static, but as i moved my head/eyes people reappeared while others disappeared. So the numbers remained about the same, though the people changed.

    Interesting what Franc said regarding this … I don’t think that sufficiently explains this, but I did ask 😉

    All churches have churn. It also a UK based C3 church. They are busy planting another church at the moment and people will go to that. However, the Lord knows who they are going to be, surely. Therefore why the changing scene?

    There is an uncertainty in all this … he’s there, no he’s not, he’s back again.

    That’s why it was so unsettling. Then it stopped and I analyzed the sermon. Both my wife and I compared it with similar talks in our home church. We concurred that the speaker was not bad. She’d been over to see Jackie Pullinger a few weeks earlier so some of that gravitas must have rubbed off but she was pretty good.

    (This from the guy who thinks that Leadership is a Male responsibility!)

    I do think that they would benefit from systematic Bible teaching. Believers should be wanting to hear such teaching and it should be brilliant every time. It’s not the fault of the Bible or the Holy Spirit that we sometimes make the Bible sound like the dustiest, most boring thing.

    Thanks for the feedback anyway folks. Franc has made a good point but it doesn’t explain the vision fully to me.

    Shalom

  17. “Franc has made a good point but it doesn’t explain the vision fully to me. ”

    Well, I think you are the one who will know when it does make sense, Bull. I thought of churn too at first (just my thought, not the HS), but it didn’t seem to explain it fully, such as why the same people reappearing, although it did explain the numbers. When an explanation for a vision is fully complete or right, it really makes sense of everything and you can really see it. I wonder if you will find you wait a bit to understand this one? I wonder if it would make sense of some kind to the church pastor?

  18. For what it is worth my first thought was that you were seeing who HS was interacting with (either the ones staying or the ones going I don’t know – if it was 50/50 I guess it does not matter)

  19. I have been led to believe that the Holy Spirit is the Anointing in the past.

    The problem was how I saw people rub the pulpit to ‘receive’ the anointing; or hearing testimonies of being in a pastors office ‘groping at the air’ to receive an impartation of the pastor’s anointing in the office. Even worse, stroke the keyboards so that they may receive the pastor’s revelational knowledge of scriptures.

    If it’s not that, it’s people wanting to be touched by the worship leader, the prophet, the leader, the prophet, etc.

    I can conclude that is not the Holy Spirit that they are pursuing. It is greed, storges and idolatry.

    The definition I have found has loosely been defined as ‘air’, ‘substance’, ‘leading’, ‘oil’, ‘power of God’, ‘presence of God’… Not once was it actually the Holy Ghost. It was more associated with its/His actions.

    And the ‘its/His’ was said for a reason too. 10 out of the 12 translations above refer to the anointing as ‘it’.

    HNV – 1Jo 2:27 –
    “… But as his anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as IT taught you, you will remain in him.”

    A person of the Godhead, as I know it, should be referred to as ‘he’. With that being my understanding, the anointing is my baptism and my righteous calling/leading as a Son of God from my baptism to my future Glory.

    It is in this process that the Holy Spirit guides his Anointed Ones. Just like we are baptised by the Holy Spirit once, we are anointed/sealed by the Holy Spirit once. It cannot be taken back. To be reminded of our new status in God is to be reminded that we were anointed and to remain in knowing that simple truth that we are in him.

    A good example of this is David. He was anointed to be king of Israel but refused to act unkingly as he was tempted to kill King Saul who was out to murder him. Was David to be king? Yes. He was anointed alooong time ago as king. Would he have forgotten that at all? No. When he was tempted, it was a kingly decision he made. He knew he was anointed to be Israel’s king so REFUSED to act unkingly.

    I believe his memory of being anointed, would have been a factor in how he developed his character and behavior. So to do we.

    We are told to wear the helmet of salvation so we do not forget the importance of that event where God saved us, baptised us and anointed us as a royal kings and priests with him.

    To have our minds fixed on our salvation, would make us wonder how a king would act on the circumstances we are facing now.

    This is all food for thought.

    The thing is, I used to refer to the Holy Spirit as ‘it’, but when I acknowledged HIM as a person of the Godhead, that was when I started experiences the supernatural reality of the Spirit Of Christ.

    To know that I have been placed in the order of Melchizedek with my Saviour is a mind-boggling concept. Is my memory of when I first came into this divine order with Christ, teach me or remind me how I should behave or act before God and people?

    Looking back at when I was anointed, IT teaches me and reminds me how I should act.

    I also learn from the Holy Spirit’s leading and taught revelation by Him. I can only conclude they are different things. Pull this apart.

    If I am wrong greg, please tell me where rather then stating the obvious. This is something I have been trying to understand for the last five years. I have been determined to understand it.

  20. RP: “I think Jesus made it clear that the anointing who teaches us all things, is the Holy Spirit:

    Jesus speaking in John 14:26:
    “…26 But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.””

    But he doesn’t call the spirit ‘Anointing’. Nor have I seen a translation with the Holy Spirit actually been the anointing with a capital ‘A’. I agree that the Holy Spirit teaches us all things. He anointed us, and now we are not to forget IT (the IT being the time when the Holy Spirit anointed us).

    Heretic: “Have you asked HS to explain it to you?”

    Yeah. I felt confirmation that I was in ‘it/Him’ and that I had to go to the bible to study it/Him. I wasn’t happy with 1John so I started reading every account in the Old Testament. I was calling him ‘it’ at the time. That was 2006. In 2007, I saw the Spirit more as a Him when I realised that He manifests aspects of Jesus. In 2008 I accepted ‘it’ as Him and started having spiritual encounters. I was actually starting to see Him reveal himself in people and be quite engaged with people in the community.

    In those instances I was led to talk to people and have made friends with those who I saw Himself standing next to or doing something to.

    I have found the word anointing a word of ignorance and started using ‘Anointing’ as a name. I kind of get defensive about the word being used for multiple things – idolatry, air, leading, atmosphere, etc.

    Then I found out that the Holy Spirit was ever called the ‘Anointing’ when I read the New Testament. (But I was reading the NLT!)

    When I started seeing it possibly as a past event like baptism, my heart really accept that, but I thought it might be too controversial to limit it to mean that. Quite a few months later (now), I’m thinking it is worthy to see your reactions to my views.

    BTW Franc. I found your views very insightful. Thanks.

  21. Heretic … I haven’t! You know … I didn’t think to!

    Hmm.

    I have an idea but I am not willing to share it … if someone else is prompted to share something that confirms my thought then I will share … otherwise it’s just my thinking and not the Holy Spirit.

    Is that fair?

    I still think though that I am to share with the Pastor what I saw and not what I might think it means. As I said, I trust the vision but my interpretations can be very wrong. Only later do we see what the vision meant.

    Just trying to do this the right way … that’s all.

    Shalom

  22. I have thought of the Holy Spirit as a person for years.

    Cause I haven’t been in Penty circles the whole anointing thing seems a but – well – not real.

    I’ve read through your position and it sounds logical to me.

    My very ‘lay’ reading of anointing in that sense is of a specific event where someone is marked or set aside to fulfill a role. position or calling.

    The bit about ‘sealed’ reads like the wax seal of royal authority.

    When I was young I got cornered by a bunch of Potters House people who really confused me for a while because I didn’t speak in tongues, and therefore was missing out- Bull’s second tier – you know the haves and have nots.

    I’ve never let myself get conned like that again. The Holy Spirit is with me the whole time. I think the extent to which we have a relationship with Him is up to us, and the discipline we impose on ourselves to seek and acknowledge Him. I acknowledge the comments about this that Specks, Franc and others have made – the Holy Spirit is not someone that we control or have at our beck and call.

  23. Heretic: “You generally know when someone is teaching you something. Being taught is an experience. Therefore the anointing is what you experience when HS is teaching you.”

    Paul also tells people to return to their ‘first love’. When ever I have gone back to when I first encountered God, it has made me more into someone today and tomorrow. The day I was anointed is my assurance that I have a calling on my life and that whatever I learn helps make more into the person I was commissioned to me with also the Spirit’s help.

    Looking back to when I was anointed [event], I can learn ALL THINGS necessary to keep me focused on the right track. Here’s a quick little roleplay to demonstrate what I mean:

    *S&P looks back in fear because a big tribulation is ahead of him. In looking back, he remembers when He first met the Lord and was anointed into Christ’s ministry.*

    “That’s right! I have been called to do this! I can learn from this and be made more into what God has commissioned me to be and do- WITH the Holy Spirit’s help.”

    Another possibility in all this is this:
    We are sealed by the Spirit… but the anointing was when we were stamped with Him.

    Verses:

    Philippians 2:12 … continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth.

    Revelations 2:4-5 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first…

    =============================================
    Bull “Why do I bring this up? Well … I had a vision. I was at the back and looked around at the worshipers.

    Any idea what this means? I trust the vision but not my interpretation. I believe it is for someone else to interpret.”

    To paraphrase Franc and Queen… “Easy come! Easy go! People looking for a home!”

    Being more serious, the timing of the vision I think is crucial. You saw it when people were WORSHIPING. I would say the vision would be related to the worship time and the people worshiping.

    My understanding is that people are trying to discover how to worship, because worship is more then just singing, emotonal experiences, raving and raising hands. CCC doesn’t know how to do this nor most churches I’ve visited.

    I remember a CCC song that was put out a few years back singing “In the quiet, in the stillness, I know that you are there…” yet the song failed to provide a stillness. In fact, rarely is stillness something that is encouraged in those typs of church environments anywhere. If they are, they are incredibly rare and usually stuff-ups.

    People know there is more to worship, but they don’t know what it is. A friend of mine is doing this actually. She is learning the difference between worshiping in song to worshiping in service of others, worshiping in being obedient to God and worshiping in places of beautiful silence.

    She is a beautiful friend of mine who has changed so much as she has undertaken this journey to worship God in Spirit and in truth. She feels completely fulfilled and just radiates in her quiet humble persona.

  24. If we can accept that we are accepted fully into the GOD HEAD with Jesus with the father, then man is omitted from the equation. Not that we dont relate to man but we are relating to god men as well and potential god men. The word for spirit in the hebrew which meant air. our life. So if we are limiting our status in god by our leaders and staying under their thresh hold or their covering or their teaching of limits to maintain growth and responsibility then we are staying within the confines of tradition and kept here in spirit, not being set free, divine,blessed, a blessing, which are all part of what the Anointing does including the fruits which are a result of having the anointing working and operating in our life in its various forms. Christ means THE ANOINTING (TA) and if he ,like a DOVE can settle on us and not be moved to fly off. He flies off when our thoughts(like a resting, nesting place) unsettle the still enviornment which the dove likes. I sense that you are really serious about the desire to be filled and satisified with TA, and move in him rather than anything else. Patience is a huge part of this, building our character, leaning on the entire personality in TA.
    When I was going to bigCCC I put everything I had into everything I did to get what they were talking about and if anyone was going to get it , I was going to.
    I worshiped louder, longer, fasted longer, prayed in tongues for months all day long, attended everything I could, until one day the HS talked to me and said Franc, what do you think you are doing? None of what I was doing was doing what I thought it was, according to the HS. So I just started observing the HS and very quickly I could see what he wanted to do and what he didnt want to do.
    He would be there for parts of a service and would go for most of it. He would ask me to do various things which I would do. MY favor with man was waning though and I had to make a decision about that. Are we all prepared to make a decision about that? It is very serious. Are we willing to step out on a limb into the un known in our god given faith and hope that it is in fact faith that we are standing on. NOW THAT IS THEN ONLY GOD, or we fall flat on our faces and ask for forgiveness because it was our flesh man being led by another spirit.
    I have done that so many times and GOD has never let me down. My faith has been tested and will keep being tested. SO WE KNOW THE RIGHT SPIRIT. Then TA will be with us and will be imparted onto people and situations. We will go into churches and TA will bless them. Our giftings will increase in capacity.
    I would like to bring into the equasion the term “COVERING” as I think it is like a limitation placed on a congregation which they are asked to take on and work under. I would suggest that these ‘coverings’ are spiritual limitations which must be observed and will limit our relationship with TA.
    I have come out of agreement with all churches I have attended and I do not take on their covering which is designed to oppress my walk, not knowingly but actually.
    I did a severing prayer to sever all ungodly ties with these things and I was surprised how much there was to sever.
    The A has been increased since doing this. I developed my own covering, I had to because of the attack. The enemy is not willing to allow people into the high places and cause him problems. TA, Christ is active and willing to take us into all truth, forsaking all for what he has which is everything which Jesus has access to in HEAVEN.
    My son said to me the other night, “can we spend a while having a conversation in the LORD” as soon as I agreed the atmosphere changed immediately, then my wife joined the conversation and got even better. I think we put on Christ, TA.

  25. Another term is ‘who is your covering?’
    ‘who do you come under?’ who are you submitted to?’
    I understand the logic behind these Qs as they are designed for us to understand where and how a person fits into the equation and really if we should even listen to them. Churches generally would like us to submit to the spirit in that church and also the oversight. to be submitted both to the spirit and also man.
    If I am in TA Jesus and I am submitted to God the Father by way of JEsus and in agreement with him then I must be fulfilling all that is required.
    Someone would say that we must be careful, but who is at the top of this tower of authority in churches today or ever. Hopefully GOD and if it is God then they could tell that it was the same spirit. BUT they know that it is not so they themselves are not submitted to TA. He knows what to do in every situation, he Knows how to minister, how to deal with fakers, he is the very thing we need in every situation and is perfect at it every time.
    Man is the one who looks for a manual for everything.
    Even scripture came by way of men who had established a relationship with the father and god trusted them with His Word. The right word builds and the wrong word takes down. If we really want all there is in TA then it must come back to LOVE.

  26. Once again Franc. We are very like minded.

    NO GODLY MAN should demand authority or a covering over Christians. Jesus is our authority, the Holy Spirit our clothing (identity and covering). We are seated with him and minister alongside Him with His Spirit.

    I remember telling some Christian friends some street work I was doing and they asked me. “Under who’s authority are you doing these things for?”

    They would not accept the fact that I just had love and was motivated by God’s love for them.

    The covering doctrine is dangerous, because SO many of or brothers and sister in Christ give away their God given rights and responsibilities to leaders they only see on Sunday. They are completely dis-empowered through-out there weeks unless they can call their homegroup leader when an issue arises.

    No. We are disciples of Jesus. Not Paul. Not Barnabus. Not Brian Houston nor Phil Pringle. If it was Jesus that discipled his followers back then, it can be Jesus that disciples his followers today.

    If churches are going to have God up there with the pastor, bring back the OT Israel Church or the middle ages King heirarchy. We’ve discussed the covering doctrine before. It was a doctrine that seemed to be birthed from the Latter Rain Movement.

    Franc: “Christ means THE ANOINTING”

    Umm… Don’t think it does. I think it means “Messiah”, or “Anointed (consecrated) One”.

    edit: just found this:

    http://atheism.about.com/od/biblepeoplenewtestament/p/Christ.htm

    “Christ is a title, not a person. Christ is the Greek form of Messiah, which comes from the Hebrew word mashiah. For Jews, the Christ is the “anointed” or “consecrated” one. Kings, priests, and prophets were all anointed in some fashion, but the Christ is typically regarded as the perfect union of all three: a king, priest, and prophet picked by God to lead his chosen people.”

  27. Bull’s vision – low blood sugar effects vision. Only kidding! 🙂

    Seriously though, God’s Word comes to mind mulling over this. Matt 16:18 “……I will build my church and the gates of hell SHALL NOT prevail against it.”

    Another reference John 6:39 “And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should LOSE NOTHING OF ALL that He has given me, but raise it up upon the last day.”

    There’s nothing men can do to stop the advance of the gospel and the salvation of the elect. Sometimes I think that C3’s and their ilk can be stumbling blocks!

    C3 churches world-wide would probably give you that same vision, Bull. Their pragmatic approach to church-growth and man-made methods are quite problematic. This is an area much discussed on various websites. To me (and I’m not interpreting) you are seeing the condition of most churches today who have jumped on the seeker-friendly bandwagon, not believing in the sufficiency of God’s Word to convict and bring to repentence.

    It’s the regenerate who are leaving, because they are not being fed and the unregenerate who are staying because they are being entertained and are very comfortable in that state of unrepentence. As Charles Spurgeon once said “feeding sheep or amusing goats?”

    Sharing your vision with the pastor of that C3 should generate an interesting response – perhaps you could go directly to the top via twitter.com/philpringle and ask him!

    “I’ve never let myself get conned like that again. The Holy Spirit is with me the whole time. I think the extent to which we have a relationship with Him is up to us, and the discipline we impose on ourselves to seek and acknowledge Him. …. …the Holy Spirit is not someone that we control or have at our beck and call.” Spot on MN!

  28. Bull, regarding your vision – maybe it refers to the state of mind of each person. They are trying to worship, be in communion but they fade in and out. Maybe being distracted from true fellowship by the music or the pep-talk which feeds the mind but not the spirit.

    I agree with S&P and MN, I think the annointing refers to the state of salvation. Just as kings were annointed when they ascended to the throne, so we receive the annointing when we become sons of God. Associating it with some spiritual feeling leads to a new-ageish focus. Like star-wars as in “I feel the annointing is very strong in him”

  29. Im pretty sure that Christ means “the anointed one”
    I remember that Kenneth Copeland would say Christ means ‘the anointed one and the anointing’
    Its interesting that HS descended on Jesus like a dove.
    We are called Christians (followers of the anointing, anointed one)
    If we do have unlimited access to the anointing then why does it seem limited?
    Why do some people have more than others?
    Why have some got such different anointings?
    The word says that the anointing is the ‘secret hidden truth’
    col2:3 all banks of wisdom and knowledge are kept hidden in the Anointing.
    If that is true and we can know scripture and not the Anointing.
    If we know the Anointing we know the word.
    Was the word translated by the same people as received it, I think not.
    Paul who received the word for the gentiles from the anointing was kept in prison I think to prevent Church leaders from tainting his authority.
    Do you think churches do what they do knowing that its wrong or are we failing to see that they are people just like us doing their best to keep the congregation together no matter what it takes and what they try.
    TEDDY
    Can you explain what you meant by being ‘conned like that again’ and also who conned you or what conned you.

  30. Another thing about the Spirit of a church.
    A pastor once said to me at a (Prophetic conference) that the spirit of a church was identical to the spirit of the person running it, just magnified.
    If we truly magnify man and not god then the true A will be magnified.
    That could be why certain churches have certain types of sin which keeps occurring and is ignored, glossed over, why adultery is not considered unless its ongoing and why the prophetic is kept under control.
    God told me once about money being misappropriated in a certain church. It annoyed me because I didnt want to be responsible for this information and He was really upsetting my belief that “they” knew what they were doing.
    God told me which pastor to tell about the problem so I told him what god had said to me and he told me that it was not true, I said it was and he said it wasnt, so I left it at that. Years later I spoke the financial manager of the church who agreed that they were doing things with money to keep the church going. “BUT GOD IS BIGGER THAN THAT” he said. I personally found that Church wanted to control information and was really worried about true uncontrolled Prophetic and uncontrolled Discernment.

  31. Franc

    Teddy was quoting from of my earlier posts yesterday about my experience – see that for the explanation.

    I agree with much of what you are saying but have some points at which I differ quite strongly. But first, the next post….

  32. Some really gutsy issues here.

    But first, you asked for it (implicitly)….

    Anointed……a-n-o-i-n-t-d…..anointed (as in mortgag)

    Luke 4:18ff The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
    “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

    Anointed Greek translation – to anoint by way of instituting to a dignity, function or privilege

    Same at Acts 10.38, Heb 1:9, 2 Cor 1.21-22….

    Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come

    Acts 4: 25ff: You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
    ” ‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against his Anointed One.’Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.

    Anointed Greek translation – the Christ, the word, or doctrine of Christ. Whom you anointed – see the first translation

    1 Jn 2

    18 Dear children…..20ff you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist — he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us — even eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

    Anointed Greek translation – anything applied by the smearing; ointment in the NT an anointing, in the reception o spiritual privileges. At v 27 the first use of the word is preceded again by the definitive prepositive article, and I think the the second use of the word is cumulative meaning as in the first use of the word in that sentence.

    Re smearing with ointment – to ge the sense I think is it necessary to understand the cultural significance of that, but from my small understanding it is always significant when done in a formal, symbolic sense – I wonder about the significance the woman with the jar aof alabaster in this conversation.

    I am not a Greek scholar but thought it use to get a simple (relatively) reverse interlinear translation – William B Mounce

    I’d like to put one of Jn 3:16 given Bull’s previous comments may be later.

    I know stuff all about parsing, but hope this will be useful.

  33. “GOd told me once about money being misapropriated in a certain church. It annoyed me because I didnt want to be responsible for this information and He was really upsetting my belief that “they” knew what they were doing.
    God told me which pastor to tell about the problem so I told him what god had said to me and he told me that it was not true, I said it was and he said it wasnt, so I left it at that. Years later I spoke the financial manager of the church who agreed that they were doing things with money to keep the church going. “BUT GOD IS BIGGER THAN THAT” he said. I personally found that Church wanted to control information and was really worried about true uncontrolled Prophetic and uncontrolled Discernment”

    And that statement bothers me. If God was really concerned He is quite capable of speaking directly to the people concerned. I don’t believe He uses unpredictable “prophets” such as yourself. If you are talking about C3, then there were and still are very godly people on staff/boards quite capable of dealing with such situations.

    “……….and was really worried about true uncontrolled Prophetic and uncontrolled Discernment.”

    I bet they were, so would I. All the churches you have mentioned attending in the past would have certainly had boards to answer to.

  34. OK – I think I agree with most of what Franc says, but from the translations above and the context I can’t agree with Franc’s understanding of what the actual word ‘anointing’ means.

    Yes Jesus is the anointed One, but I think to use that word out of context is simply confusing, and Chinese whispers being what they meane people get the wrong idea even when they are totally genuine.

    Yes Franc the translation at Col 2.3 renders Christ as the anointed one, but when the word anointing is used in the english it generally means being set aside, the process of being given spiritual privileges etc.

    Franc asked some questions above, which I’ve broken up and put my responses after:

    If we do have unlimited access to the anointing then why does it seem limited?

    Number of reasons – God does not remove struggle…David often asked where are you God, and yet he was man after God’s own heart. God tests us and refines us. And as you’ve previously said if we are not listening or going our way the Holy Spirit may turn down the volume til we are in a better disposition to hear what He says. We are also human and finite in our current state.

    Why do some people have more than others?

    That assumes this is the case – it may or may not be. As I said before – I don’t have any gifts that I am aware of, and the drive for the flashier ones is as Specks said another form of idolatry. God has me covered, and his grace is sufficient for me – if God is for me what does it matter. I am content in the Lord in this way. Also we are all different parts of the body with different functions and roles with different things to contribute.

    Why have some got such different anointings?

    See above.

    The word says at Col 2:3 that the anointing is the ’secret hidden truth’ all banks of wisdom and knowledge are kept hidden in the Anointing.” If that is true and we can know scripture and not the Anointing.

    I think this is true, but equally if a person is not “anointed” they are not a Christian or “saved” at that point. Refer to Specks discussions and queries – in oldtime evangelical speak what we are talking about is the equivalent of salvation and sanctification – salavation happens at a point that we may or may not know about, and sanctification is the lifelong refining process that God through His Spirit wants to us undertake and put us through.

    But if a person has come to that point which the Word brings us to then the Scripture should become alive to us – see both Specks and RP we are sealed/anointed in the Spirit who will teach us all things as we allow Him to through – and I emphasise here – through the Word of God – His Inspired Word and our experience as we submit ourselves to Him.

    If we know the Anointing we know the word.

    If we anointed/sealed then we should know the Word – in Spirit and Truth – but the extent that we know depends in part about how keen we are and obedient learn and know what is in the Word – the Bible, and to listen to what the Spirit says to each of us.

    Was the word translated by the same people as received it, I think not. Paul who received the word for the gentiles from the anointing was kept in prison I think to prevent Church leaders from tainting his authority.

    That is speculation and not useful – either we accept that God can maintain the integrity of His Word through the ages or we don’t – how does that is not my concern, but if we don’t accept that well then there is nothing to believe – at all.

    “Do you think churches do what they do knowing that its wrong or are we failing to see that they are people just like us doing their best to keep the congregation together no matter what it takes and what they try.”

    I thought this was a really interesting question. I think the answer is potentially both, depending on the congregation – there are absolutely out there who should do as Paul says and emasculate themselves or the female equivalent.

    Mostly I think its the latter. It is what men did before the flood, what the children of Israel did, and what we do – where what we do counts most, the instititions that we create that become more important than our Creator.

    Specks spoke of his friend who was learning to worship in all things including the stillness. I think mostly we like to fill things up with our own noise (he says after writing this long post).

    A man who I highly respect said we often persist in trying to keep goiong that really have had their day and we should let fall over.

  35. When I said there were somethings I disagreed with Franc over, I think one of them was less about Franc’s comments and more over this issue:

    I see a lot of individuals cutting themselves adrift of churches, and being accountable to anyone within the body of Christ.

    Yes the Spirit leads us and we are ultimately responsible to God, but the body of Christ is supposed to function in such a way that it provides checks and balances for OUR BENEFIT.

    Even with the Holy Spirit, we are not meant to function outside the body although I accept that there may be times when it is necessary to separate ourselves for a time.

    This issue concerns me for me and for others as well.

  36. I see a lot of individuals cutting themselves adrift of churches, and NOT being accountable to anyone within the body of Christ.

  37. Thought MN’s comment was a nice summary: mn Says:
    August 15, 2009 at 2:13 pm…

    Re Coverings – a pragmatic false teaching; we need no ‘covering’ but Jesus. Used for control in churches; to discourage people from leaving and to discredit those who object to church practices when they don’t attend a church ie: have no covering. (Or have a ‘covering’ at a church that is not respected.) Puts men between us and Christ.

    “I see a lot of individuals cutting themselves adrift of churches, and being accountable to anyone within the body of Christ.”

    – I’m not being defensive here about non-church attendance – I do actually believe that the term ‘accountablility’ is frequently used as a controlling term in the manner that covering is.

    However, I do in fact believe that we are to love one another and an important part of that love is mutual submission, particularly to those who serve us, as we are to make their service a thing of joy rather than a difficulty. So don’t take it the wrong way, when I ask where is the term ‘accountablity’ in the Bible, except for between us and God.

    I am not suggesting that we should not submit to one another. However, the term ‘accountability’ is at times a very ‘religious’ one used to make us more accountable to men than to our Lord.

    I would say that it is appropriate for someone who has given an undertaking to others to be accountable for doing what they have undertaken to do. That is a voluntary accountability, not an enforced legalism.

    Interestingly, our ex-pastor, who was into accountability, told us that he was not ‘accountable’ to his congregation, but was to those above him in the C3 hierarchy. We on the other hand were accountable to him.


    “I see a lot of individuals cutting themselves adrift of churches, and being accountable to anyone within the body of Christ.” – did you mean ‘not accountable’ to anyone, or ‘accountable to anyone at all’?

    I’m not trying to say we shouldn’t attend church BTW – I know that you know and accept my reasons for not currently attending, (definitely not God’s path for me right now), and that I do think fellowship is an important part of our journey, which inevitably means having relationships as a Christian family – being a church in some form – over time.

  38. “being a church in some form” – in the sense of a family of believers, as well as being ‘the’ church absolutely wherever we are at any point in time.

  39. MN I agree with your post of August 15, 2009 at 1:31 pm in that the anointing is something we receive at a particular time from HS. And from that time we “have” that anointing (1jn2:20) and this is the same as being “sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise” (eph1:13).

    Sealed with HS means that a seal was applied to mark us and that the seal that marks us is the HS. So we now “have” HS and he does not (usually) go away, he remains in us.

    And HS teaches us all things and the anointing teaches us all things so it is clear that these two are one and the same (otherwise HS would teach us some things and the anointing would teach us other things).

    But there is also a “now” component that we experience at a point in time. The teaching is an example I have raised already. The scripture you quoted is another I suggest

    The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor

    In this quote “the spirit of the lord is on me” is happening “now” but the anointing is past tense and the “now” part is clearly a result of the “past tense” part. I expect the teaching us all things works the same way.

    I have always regarding the “now” part as being called “the anointing” as well but perhaps it is not. It seems a fine distinction if not. The anointing is clearly the HS applied me as a seal and the HS being upon me at a given point in time. I guess I can live with that distinction 🙂 .

  40. Have to agree with RP on accountability. Does anyone have scripture that says we give an account to anyone but Jesus?

  41. How’s this from a pastor’s perspective on accountability within church leadership. Too harsh?

    “Piper’s Pastoral Accountability
    May 23, 2007 | By: Abraham Piper | Category: Commentary

    Hearts can harden fast. The writer of Hebrews drives this point home: “But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called ‘today,’ that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin” (3:13).

    So for pastors—and for all of us—yearly or quarterly or perhaps even monthly accountability is dangerously rare. The hardness that creates “an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God” (Heb. 3:12) can happen in a day.

    John Piper and the other pastors of Bethlehem Baptist Church know this, and so, among their other strategies for sanctification, they hold each other accountable with a simple questionnaire (PDF) that they each fill out weekly. It addresses issues from days off to diet, personal devotions to pornography.

    They would all agree that filling out the form is not what matters; what’s important is the heart behind it—the desire to be pure and holy.

    I think they would also all agree, however, that committing to answer these simple and straightforward questions each week is an invaluable tool in the fight of faith.”

    This is a very challenging area!

  42. I find it very harsh. We all sin every day. The only two commands Jesus gave us are impossible to do. Do I love the Lord with all my heart, soul and strength? No, because I sin daily. Do I love my neighbour as I love myself? No, because I sin daily. He really is showing us how much we need a saviour!

    But as Paul says “Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.”

    Coming back to accountability – my husband, my Lord. Any pastoral accountablity stops at the door of the church.

  43. That was a very interesting quote, Teddy. Can’t criticise the desire behind it, to encourage each other in a sin free life. But I agree that its harsh.

    The problem is, that where does their accountability end? Do they need to keep adding to their questionnaire to ensure any areas of sin they have missed are covered? It would never end. Or do they say, because I have done everything right in this questionnaire, I am OK, while ignoring other areas of sin? (Not that I’m trying to impugne these pastors, just raise issues with that technique.)

    “…among their other strategies for sanctification…”
    is an interesting quote. Can man actually create strategies for sanctification, or is this again back to the work of the Holy Spirit within us?

  44. I’ve also heard of groups where individuals agree to be accountable to one another, and it’s taken the form of getting together on a regular basis and confessing all their sins to their designated partner. What do you think of that?

  45. If the body is only the church group.
    I thought that if Jesus is in us and we are sealed then how is it possible to be removed from the body.
    If a pastor says it then it must be true.
    If it is taught in bible college then it must be true. The bigger the church the truer the decision.
    If the HS says it then it can only be true once the church agrees with you.
    SIN, every day. Q how long after we sin are we forgiven. Is Grace real?
    If Jesus died 2000 years ago for the sins we do today then they are forgiven before we do them. Forgiveness is for us to achieve not God he has already forgiven us.It is finished. He has done his forgiving.
    I am sorry I do not understand how God can be wrong if the church does not agree with it.
    Let God be true and all men liars. It may sound like I am against Churches,
    People and churches have the right to do as they please.
    I think that if god says something then it isnt to be taken lightly.

  46. “I thought that if Jesus is in us and we are sealed then how is it possible to be removed from the body.”

    That’s why although I’ve left my ex-church, I haven’t left _the church_ – the body of Christ. I can never do that, so long as I walk with Him.

    And, I still have a local Christian family, even though its not a ‘recognised’ church – I am blessed to have friends who recognise that we are in fact each others family in Christ, and are there for each other, and meet in that recognition. I think you find this family expression of church in many different settings, both organised and informal. (Even here, though not at the physically present level.) It’s very important. Without it, part of our Christian lives is missing, whatever our setting. Some people do go through a time with no-one, and maybe that’s a wilderness for them where God will teach them things, but I don’t think its meant to be a permanent thing.

    Gosh, I am meandering here.

  47. Franc, Paul talking to the church – 1 John 1:7-10

    “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

  48. 🙂 Actually, I wrote that last one after a G&T. (Much appreciated after a few more hours work in the garden, and getting kids dinner.)

  49. Heretic: “I have always regarding the “now” part as being called “the anointing” as well but perhaps it is not.”

    I’ve heard that taught allot. Pringle and Hinn teach that when the ‘Anointing’ comes upon them, right then and there when they’re ministering, they are anointed to do a specific task right then and there whether it be healing, prophesying, changing the preach message, evangelising, etc. Because of their obedience right then and there, things will happen.

    I disagree with this. If the Holy Spirit tells you to do something, you do it right then and there and see the results.

    Heretic:
    “Does anyone have scripture that says we give an account to anyone but Jesus?”

    “Imitate me the way I imitate Christ.” (?)

    I know Paul warned some of his churches that unless they fix themselves up, they’ll be accountable (I think) to him when he travels through them.

    Franc: “If we do have unlimited access to the anointing then why does it seem limited?”

    Quite possible the Anointing Holy Spirit does this to mature us, direct us or teach us. He’s still in us and with us, but when it feels as though He has left, it is a test of character and a time of development. This has personally happened to me and now it is back. Because of the feeling of His absence, I believe in myself more and feel more mature in Him when I had to fight alone. It’s like He let me leave his arms so I could walk with out Him a few times just to discover I can do things I never thought I could do.

    I expect He will do it again. Actually He has been doing that in some areas of my life so I can grow up in those areas. Now THAT is discipline – and boy does it hurt sometimes! He’s not being cruel, but teaching me to survive and how to deal with future expectations in where I want to go.

    Sometimes the Anointing Holy Spirit is SO absent that it is an indication that we are not to go there in our Christian walk because that is not what He has called us to be. It’s like the Anointing Holy Spirit is guiding a person to become a famous writer and everyone else is telling the person they are a great singer. Maybe the person does have a good voice, so the Holy Spirit will withdraw so that the person will stay focused with what the Spirit is leading them on to do rather than singing at the moment.

    Franc: “Why do some people have more than others?”

    They don’t. However, there are some called to minister to the church and those people are valued highly. Some of them exalted more highly then they should be.

    Now those that are exalted in the church want the body of Christ to become an ‘eye’ as well. This is where the Holy Spirit withdraws his power from over a believer’s life because he does NOT want them to strive for an office or to be like someone. He might want to teach a person how to be faithful to their boyfriend (that is powerful thing to grow into), how to be a good husband and father to his family (that is a powerful thing to have).

    He might want someone not to be in fellowship with the church and just to spend quality time with Him (another powerful thing to experience and move in). He might want to get someone to dedicate their life to the marketing world, so just at the right time, the He will direct that person to lead people who are suffering in finance, marriage, wisdom or moral/spiritual failure, to the Lord.

    I know my calling and when I step outside of it, I struggle terribly! When I step into into the role the Holy Spirit wants me to do, I’m right at home and it’s amazing to discover how much power you are given when dealing with someone’s world! It’s an honour and a privelege. It’s when you know you are in the right place at the right time with God.

    I’ve had some pretty powerful moments that are pure secret with other people and the Holy Spirit. People just need to know where the Lord wants them and that take’s time, patience and a willingness for them to be open to the Lord wherever they are, right then and there. It’s taken me a loooong time!

    Franc: “Why have some got such different anointings?”

    So that ALL the different people in the church and in the world can be ministered too effectively. Everyone’s ministry and calling is different. We need to accept the tasks we are anointed for.

  50. I like that S&P.
    TEDDY
    Did I say I didnt sin?
    I know some of the revelations can only be discerned in the spirit and by way of the anointing.
    Jesus has in fact now gone to heaven and cannot and will not die a second time for anyone. Hebrews 6:
    This is to do with forgiveness. We are forgiven already. Its all there for us.
    By our Baptism we have entered into the realm.
    We see no smearing in the natural, no death and no raising from the dead and no forgiveness in the natural realm. It is a spiritual thing which we have entered into. We have entered into glory. The only thing which stops us is unbelief.
    Any form of unbelief, fear of giving up our past, fear of failing, or fear that we may be wrong. Trusting in man is wrong. All trust must be in GOd.
    So is there anything which has been left in the world. SIN NATURE, yes.
    I just dont want to give up on what god has done in me and I cant worry that others dont agree, their not meant to. I cant need their approval. I have Gods approval already. All I need do is abide in him, and him in me. Those who are led by the spirit of God etc. If I allow my past to cause me to shrink back.
    I must just go further in faith. Thats it for me. The Anointing is not the confirmation my faith in my God is. Faith pleases GOD, ……..

  51. Previously on this channel: “I see a lot of individuals cutting themselves adrift of churches, and NOT being accountable to anyone within the body of Christ.”

    Firstly I don’t necessarily equate a church to the body of Christ – the former is smaller and may or may not be part of the broader body of Christ.

    Those who know Jesus as Lord and Saviour are part of that Body.

    Next question I suppose is what does accountability mean? I accept that it means different things to different and can be “used” for different purposes, and it is clear that people are wary of being controlled or control being sought over them.

    That is not what I mean.

  52. Here is something I wrote on this subject.

    The Anointing: It is not what you think

    In the modern church culture of contemporary Europe or North America, the term ‘anointing’ is often misused, misunderstood. Yes, it is a verb in the progressive tense and is a gerund therefore can be used as a noun. But its real significance comes when it remains a verb, a past tense event. When the Anointing is an action it takes on a different significance all-to-together. The Anointing becomes a marker in time, a reference point for a significant event, a demarcation of before and after. It becomes a sign marking the difference between what was and what is now, usually born out in what is to come.

    Do not trust most books on the Anointing. They do not know what it is really. Learn what the anointing is and is not from the Bible. Know the Word of God for yourself. Study to show yourself approved of God. Separate yourself to Him. Ask of Him. He will teach you. He will guide you. He will lead you into all truth. He will teach you how to receive the Anointing and to walk in the Anointing that you received.

    More at:
    http://docrogerswrites.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/the-anointing-it-is-not-what-you-think/

  53. For Franc, a C.S. Lewis quote –

    “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.”

  54. TEDDY.
    Yes, nothing man created can make us happy for longer that a few minutes. All vanity. Unless it is spiritually connected in God.
    I know that the joy of the Lord is my strength.
    Thanks doc Rogers. I like that.
    Years ago I used to try to be present in my day, not relating to the past or future.
    This morning I realised that I am now interested in entering the eternal REST which Jesus provided and it is a good gauge for me as I go through my day that I need to strive in this more often.
    I like the past to be finished with and it took me many years to do that. Love and forgiveness.

  55. Sorry, MN – I don’t think you meant ‘accountability’ in the sense that it is at times used in, and I can’t imagine that you would abuse the concept… of course the balance and correction that our relationships with others in Christ can bring to our walk is good, and I imagine that’s what you mean.

    But there is a whole stream of thought about ‘accountability’ that has been used as I mentioned, and as Teddy described. The term is often thrown around as if it is a scriptural instruction when in fact we are to give an account to God rather than man. In fact, sometimes because we know we will give an account to God, inevitably we do things that will upset some of those who think we are accountable to them. That’s when we really need wisdom, and in terms of this thread, the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

    Love that quote from C.S.Lewis, Teddy.

    Perhaps when we need to correct one another, it isn’t in the sense that we must account to one another but in the sense that we strengthen one another in the Lord and it absolutely must be done in a relational context of love.

    However, techniques or cultures where we have to account to one another in order to stay on the right path, externalise something that needs to come from an internal motivation. It may have a ‘good’ effect, but will not change the inner man. When that external framework disappears, then those who don’t have that internal strength will find that the sin returns. An external framework can be helpful where people are weak, or initially dealing with stuff, but at some point they have to become adult in that area, with enough self control not to need that framework, and able to rely purely on their relationship with God and his provision.

  56. Here’s few starting lines or words which I won’t finish, which I think point to the way things should be, but aren’t necessarily.

    Elders

    Titus: The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.

    James: Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.

    1 Pet 5: To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.

    Encourage

    2 Tim 4: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
    Titus 2: You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance. Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.

    There is

    My question is…and it is a totally fair and not directed at anyone – this is a straight up question – taking into account this Scripture which has had a fair run on this thread – But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

    If we have separated ourselves from the body as best we can – there are clearly people that do this, and yes I acknowledge Specks point that we are all sealed by the Holy Spirit – then how do learn all that the Spirit wants to teach us etc etc.

    No weaselling out here.

    And if you think I’m being unfair then take account of this.

    I am about to take my youngest son to hockey I thnk as I have shared before, because he’s in the A’s and the A’s play Sunday mornings. This means I miss church for two terms. Now in many ways I don’t mind this – I don’t miss the systems, programs and leadership driven stuff, but I miss those times when there is real corporate worship. May be Signposts is that part of the body of Christ which compensates for that for me at this time.

    You see I believe that the Spirit works and teaches us through the body of Christ when it is functioning well. When it is not we are still all individually – here’s that word again – accountable – not to men but to God to work out our salvation – which I take as a life long process. If we are not ‘there’ in a real, temporal sense – wherever ‘there’ may be how do get the whole benefit of what the Spirit does want to teach us?

    Paul went AWOL for 10 years after his encounter on the Damascus road before he got out ‘there’.

    Enough….duty calls.

  57. If we have separated ourselves from the body as best we can … then how do learn all that the Spirit wants to teach us etc etc.

    We learn when we go by the Spirit’s leading. A good friend of mine did exactly. He was saved and was in a church for a few years when he just got over the manmade stuff. So he separated himself from the church and studied the scriptures FOR SEVEN YEARS.

    I do not know another teacher like him. He understands how powerful the gospel is; how important it is to preach crucified; how to be lead when the Spirit wants us to grow… and now it is clear to the church he goes to, that he has a gift of teaching, healing and evangelism. Just not the best speaker, counselor and negotiator.

    Separated for seven years. Came back to be a true blessing for the body of Christ.

  58. Hi Folks,

    thanks for the feedback regarding the vision. Elements of the suggestions made ring true to a certain extent.

    People’s emotions … yes.
    Regenerate and unregenerate … yes.

    I also believe that there is an element we can’t see yet, it’s in the future. I believe that the prophesied future persecution in the UK church will have an effect …

    Would you go to church with your kids if there was a chance that today is the day that someone will firebomb your church?

    A handful of attacks will cripple church attendance across the UK.

    Anyway, I could be wrong in that and seeing too much.

    Shalom

  59. We aren’t there yet, but it’s coming soon.

    As surely as night follows day. It’s still ‘daytime’ but it’s long past noon. We are in the sunshine of His love but ‘night’ is coming. Are we ready?

    Pray for us. The church in the UK is sleepwalking … we all expect a big revival just round the corner and then we’ll have a christian Britain again. We’re in cloud-cuckoo-land.

    When preachers in the street are being targeted by the police for harassment and accused of ‘gay-bashing’ even though the subject never came up in their open-air preaching … you know that’s the tip of the iceberg. When Muslim youths are beating up anglican vicars … and it’s not officially a hate crime … when non-muslim kids are victimised in school unless they convert … listen, you know whats coming.

    Shalom

  60. If what you say does happen, Bull, then how do you think the church will continue to meet together? Will all continue to meet, or just some?

  61. who knows?

    Some will meet openly, although the government will tell the church what it can and cannot preach.

    The rest will meet in secret and preach the whole truth. They will be at risk of prosecution and imprisonment.

    So, just like in China, persecution will save the true faith.

    Shalom

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