JAAL, 10KW & IHOP – (Pawn Parade?)

(Comment on above: Good money stewarding eh?)

Let me start by going back a few articles…

Looking back on Matt Ford’s Fire It Up ministry, I can honestly say that I admire Franc Manhattan’s love and faith in Jesus. He is sincere with what he believes.

However, due to Teddy and other people’s comments, it upsets me that he might be in situations where he can seriously affect others in unhealthy ways.

Do I blame Manhattan for this? No. He seems genuine, sincere and quite personable and lovable.

The fault lies with the American blasphemer Matt Ford. Strong language I know. But the world-wide ego’s are coming down under! They are to spread their fame, their name and their heretical claims..(?)

But surely we’d pick up on this. First came IHOP jumping into every country (except Australia) planting their cult ministries that stemmed from the KCP and NAR. They didn’t succeed to plant in Australia or Sydney. Then came their brain wave of being ‘smaller’ therefore less detectable. So they tried again to infiltrate the Sydney suburbs and ministries.

They got one mamma church and have planted a BURN 24/7 (IHOP prayer center in Sydney). They tried up in the Northern Beaches of Sydney where they tried to encourage local pastors to help encourage youth to get involved in 24/7 prayer. They came lookingas though they were ‘working’ with local pastors and ministries… That’s how they got that mamma church.

Some pastors were keen but it wasn’t long when discernment kicked in and BURN 24/7’s started being further examined. It didn’t go any further than that and pastors were telling their youth not to promote IHOP or BURN24/7 in their various media forms. They stopped pretty quickly in trying to infect Sydney. So what next?

Now enter the Christian pawn star.The first example I have seen of this was with the 10,000 Warriors (1oKW). And now I feel it is appropriate to voice as I’m concerned about it as it’s coming soon.

Watch their campaign video here:

http://voiceinthecity.org/content/view/165/27/

The voice of the speaker is Peter Madden. He says:

“In 1951, Bill Bright saw a three part vision. He saw that his ministry, Camper’s Crusade for Christ would reach the campus’ of the nations of the world. It happened. He saw it would produce mass media that would touch millions for Christ. It happened in the Jesus film. But what many Australian’s don’t know is that he saw a great fire of revival start in Australia and spread across the Pacific to America and then throughout the world. It’s coming.

In the 1920’s, Smith Wigglesworth, known as the Apostle of Faith, conducted phenomenal miracle meetings throughout Australia. It was reported that when he was in Melbourne, he too prophesied about the great end times revival that would come before the return of Christ. He said that it would begin in the nation of Australia.

In 1995, pastor David Cartledge, dean of Southern Cross College, and highly esteemed prophetic voice amongst the leadership of the Australian Christian Churches had an open vision: he saw a thick fog covering the nation. Over Sydney it was jet-black. He then saw a great whirlwind as a vortex, clear the skies over sydney and then over all of Australia, so that brilliant light began to shine over the entire nation. It began in the region of Blacktown.”

Here’s their website: http://10000prayerwarriors.goodbarry.com/

Now here’s a nice clip of Suzette Hattingh:

Now this event looks as though it is about glorifying God. I hope it goes well for all those that go. I’m thinking of going. However, I have heard dicy doctrines in these clips and others from Madden and Hattingh. And this looks like another MAN MADE REVIVAL. Why? For the following reasons I’ve heard and seen:

MAN is trying to FULFILL prophesy so revival can come… (Or is he? This is worth discussing! When a prophecy is given, does man play any part in ‘trying’ to fulfill it?)

MAN is getting the GLORY… Peter Madden and Lady Suzette Hattingh with others who are peddling this will be the one’s recognised for BRINGING THE GLORY if they are scrounging for any prophesy to try and FULFILL.

MAN is trying to TWIST GOD’S ARM to do something… As much as Suzette came across well, enthusiastic and loving, ‘if we agree together on something, God MUST’. Okay… That would be nice… But I’d hate to think Hattingh is a German type of Copeland.

MAN is putting their FAITH IN MAN to see God do something… Madden’s faith is in Hattingh… Hattingh’s faith is in everyone that will be there… The people’s faith will be in her and him to bring revival… And then they’ll cry out to God.  So where is faith really going?

Now I originally wanted to call this article “The Blasphemer’s Pawns” because is it was a cool title. But it wasn’t accurate enough of a label. I don’t know much about Suzette Hattingh, but the fact she is ‘fulfilling prophecy’ and using Peter Madden as a ‘John The Baptist’ kind-a thing, just disturbs me deeply. I do know however that allot of money is backing this event and that they are CONNECTED to 24/7 House of Prayer ministries… THAT’S A CONCERN!

As we count down to the great ‘JESUS ALL ABOUT LIFE – SYDNEY CELEBRATION with Suzette Hattingh, it is amazing to see what God is doing in preparation. Fijian Pastor Joe Brown was sent by God into the Blacktown area 11 months ago to establish a 24/7 House of Prayer. …

I would expect the night to be great, but a huge embarrassment on there behalf after the event. (Maybe I’m being too judgmental. I wont deny the fact that the Holy Spirit will be there if people come to worship God and fellowship with Him, but to say GOD WILL and MUST, is I find incredibly presumptuous and arrogant.)

The reason why I wanted to call the article the following is because I’m starting to see a trend with the fammers, the glammours and ‘bammers’. If you want to spread your fame in different nations, then promote and sell your ministry with Jesus in a contemporary trendy light and then find someone like-minded who you can peddle as your pawn. They will be your John The Baptist, your mouth-piece and your baby-sitter when you are not around. They will be planting your ministries elsewhere. Have you sold Jesus to those who want what you’ve got?

In this instant both Franc Manhattan and now possibly, Peter Madden have been pawns for other people’s ministries.

FACT: CCC sponsored World Youth Day to solely promote themselves, as at their Presence conference, they bagged and openly mocked Catholicism and World Youth Day. (You should have heard Chris Pringle go for it!)

It was disgusting! Some of the comments at CCC leading up to it weren’t that nice either. I was shocked when I heard and then saw that CCC sponsored WYD08. They Pawned the event for their own gain!

With the 10,000 Warriors event in Blacktown, if they are associated or promoted beside the Christian event: Jesus All About Life (JAAL), would anyone feel disturbed that the 10KW’s would be pushing their show more and promoting their minsitries/doctrines/spirits-impartations more than JAAL? If Christian’s are comfortable with that, are they comfortable with the fact that while 10KW is pawning JAAL, IHOP’s BURN 24/7’s are pawning 10KW?

Would any ministry or Christian/Pastor/Minister like to be seen as a Christian Pawn Star?


44 thoughts on “JAAL, 10KW & IHOP – (Pawn Parade?)

  1. “We had a so-called ‘revival’ in Sydney when Frank Houston arrived here. How do we know that wasn’t the fulfillment of Smith Wigglesworth prophecy?”

    Didn’t Wigglesworth say the Revival would start in Australia?

    Then it can’t have been the fulfillment, because that revival sprang from New Zealand!

  2. I added more to that comment in the thread you started up. I also edited that bit out in the article and put that in your thread too. The topic here really is to talk about Christian Pawning.

  3. Welcome Matt.

    No pun intended!

    While there was a factual error … maybe S&P meant someone else … I do wonder if you take anything seriously. I mean, the re-Pentagram? If that’s just a bit of fun, you obviously don’t regard the feelings of others.

    That isn’t a particularly loving attitude to those who are ‘weaker’ in the faith displayed there man.

    Anyway … since you are here … what is your position on Tithing?

    Must a Holy Spirit filled believer always manifest? (e.g. with Tongues)

    What about contemplative spirituality?

    What do you think of Serial Adulterer and convicted child molester Todd Bentley’s new blog?

  4. I knew you lurked Ford. 😀
    Good to see we’re talking.

    First of all, I’d like to thank you for your video. That makes you look all the more better and valid. I thank God that He was able to do those things. I will also make a mention of this question being ANSWERED in that invite thread where we had Franc speak instead of you.

    Now I thought you’d fix this up for me. (This American/Australia thing.) You see, your biography seems to suggest you are from Australia. But it seems quite clear that you were “trained in the prophetic by some of today’s well known and respected prophetic voices in Canada and the United States”.

    You left as an Australian Christian but came back with American teachings. Did you allow yourself to be taught under Todd Bentley’s and John Crowder’s ministries?

    Source is below:

    Matt is the Fire It Up Bar Tender! He is in a continual state of Holy Ghost drunkenness! At times not too in touch with the natural realm. Matt’s passion it to release Heaven everywhere he goes and even into dead religious purpose driven seeker sensitive churches. He brings with him the angels of Heaven who just love to play up in his meetings 🙂

    Matthew was raised in the Baptist family of Churches from when he was a baby. Matt’s parents were active leaders in the church and instilled into their son a passion for God and His Word. Matt was a leader for many years at Youth Camps and received a Certificate of Baptist Youth Ministry.

    In 1998 Matt visited a Pentecostal church where he was radically baptized into the Holy Ghost and taken into Heaven for three days and nights. Prior to this he went through a season of “looking for God”. Matt would rise early and pray, knowing that surely this God He had read so much about actually wanted a relationship with him.

    While Matt was in the Heavenly realm he was given the gift of faith and the working of miracles. Three days after this encounter began, Matt was able to function relatively normally again, but with an overwhelming sense of God’s love and presence on his life. This was that which he had been crying out for. The God of the universe had sucked Matt up into heaven and deposited His Holy Spirit inside of him. From this time on Matt began to operate in amazingly accurate words of knowledge and wisdom. Miraculous healings and signs follow him when he ministers.

    Matt is walking into his apostolic anointing as he plants churches and provides “covering” and accountability for other ministers and pastors, more info on this is available from http://www.fireitup.com.au .

    Matt has been intoxicated on the Father’s love since 1998, and at times is not able to function well in the physical realm due to the glory that rests on his life. He is a God pleaser and really doesn’t give a rip what man thinks of him, he is about his Fathers business….. drinking in the wine of Heaven… Jesus.

    Even though Matt has been in full time ministry for 10 years, he has kept himself relatively out of the church scene, only coming out of his Ghost Cave when the coast was clear 🙂 Matt was trained in the prophetic by some of today’s well known and respected prophetic voices in Canada and the United States. After this season Matt returned to Australia and continued his mystic journey with Jesus, preferring to spend countless hours a day in the presence of His King, rather than out “doing ministry stuff”.

    Matt is a strong believer that a persons character needs to measure up to their call, gifting and anointings. During the last 10 years he has sat at the feet of Jesus, waiting for his time to arrive. Matt has developed a very close relationship with Holy Spirit and loves to teach others about Him and show the church that God is a playful God, full of fun, joy and glory.

    Matt carries an incredible grace and authority which is evident when he ministers. satanic high priests, witches and demon possessed pastors frequently get delivered and set free in his meetings. Amazing miracles and healings take place frequently, from cancers dissolving, bones changing shape and growing, deaf ears hearing and totally paralyzed people walking again.. there is nothing that Jesus can’t heal.

    Matt has a really simple style of ministry. He gets whacked (drunk… filled with Holy Spirit) and ministers from the glory realm. He spends hours a day drinking in the presence of Heaven so that he can unleash the torrent of the Fathers love every time he preaches. He isn’t at all interested in building his own ministry or getting a name for him self, he actually does all he can do destroy his reputation 🙂 He knows that it isn’t him. its the Jesus inside him that does all the good stuff.

    If you still want to invite Matt to speak at your church, simply fill out the booking form and we will get back to you as soon as we can.

    You are so loved!

    http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:gLH3GOgqTiUJ:www.mattford.info/+matthew+ford+church+fire+it+up&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

  5. Is it possible Matt, now that we are speaking, if we can move this conversation to “To Matthew Ford & Franc Manhattan Of ‘FireItUp Ministries’” ?

    https://signposts02.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/to-matthew-ford-franc-manhattan-of-fireitup-ministries/

    I am actually really sincere in changing everything I have written. I am all for the Holy Ghost running events and changing lives. It is also clear that I was in error with what I did to Franc. However, I am still stumped to know how I should have approached the mess. Rather than de-rail this thread, can we move this conversation into the above link. Thanks guys!

  6. What do people know about Suzette Hattingh? She seems to be quite decent and sincere, but why would she do something this absurd?

  7. Facelift gave me quite a fiery e-mail about this topic which I am tempted to post up. Bull would find it amusing. I’m tempted to put it up so that everyone can rip it to pieces. Maybe he’ll stop ‘harassing’ me.

  8. Hey, despite our disagreements, I actually like FaceLift.

    Seriously. I probably won’t find it amusing either … but will point out the flaws. The spat we had with FaceLift some time ago was around some posts which made him sound very sinister. A time of withdrawal following his apology, which sounded genuine was in order and reluctantly I made that judgment call.

    Please post his message. If we wish to then make comments, we should, in the interests of fairness, allow him back for that one thread. However, since we are all equal in this, we must make that call collectively.

    If everyone agrees … S&P, RP, Heretic, and a few others perhaps then why not … but let’s see the message first.

    What do you say?

  9. It was a good response, somewhat. Stron against me, but I don’t mind. I have got to be prepared to be judged if I am judging others.

    Only problem is, if I let his post up, he wont leave me alone. And I’m with you as well Bull. I like Facelift, but I would like to respect the fact that RP and Heretic don’t want him back. He is psychotic and has been hassling me and RP through e-mail. He is that mosquito that won’t go away, continually buzzing in your ear and just draining you.

    To allow his post to get up will only allow him to e-mail me more, his comments to go up.

    Facelift does lurk and will read this. Maybe he will get a clue. So in this instant, I think I will post up his response. Hopefully his last.

  10. This should get you fired up Bull. Here’s Facelift’s (Major Tom’s) comment to me:

    What’s this, specky? You’re now on the attack against the wonderful Suzette Hattinge! Is there no one you won’t violate with your vitriol? Who’s team are you actually on, I wonder?

    Having had the privilege of working with her, I can tell you Suzette Hattinge upholds the name of Jesus in every way, is of great integrity, and of true humility, giving glory to God for all she does, and is a great credit to the Body of Christ.

    At the risk of you swinging into some kind of brainless, factless exposé on Bonnke’s ministry in an attempt to drag up some silt from the darkening depths you’re obviously prepared to sink to, I can tell you that she was the main prayer co-ordinator for Rienhardt Bonnke for many years. On her knees for thousands of souls whilst others were eating, sleeping and drinking. She teaches on prayer for souls. Maybe you’d be better employed hearing from her rather and slapping her around with words.

    Those amazing crusades held in Africa and around the world where thousands were reached, and are still being cared for in the many churches which have sprung up as a result, had more than great gospel preaching, with signs following, they had a very solid foundation of intercessory prayer, as in the days of Finney, who would never begin a campaign until his prayer team had thoroughly saturated the area with intercession.

    Should she understand revival? I think so!

    Since then she’s held Crusades of her own, and I’ve seen amazing things take place, and many people’s lives changed first hand. The Holy Spirit moves through her ministry, and many people have been profoundly touched, delivered, healed or saved, praise God!

    You admit you know little about her ministry, yet you are preparing, clearly, to launch some kind of attack. You are truly unbelievable.

    And your title ‘Christian Pawn (sic) Stars’, is a disgrace.

    This attempt to associate as many people as possible with some kind of connection to Bull’s conspiracy theory based on C Peter Wagner’s observations is getting quite ridiculous. Wagner is a College professor who summarises Christian movements, and makes observations which, he himself says, are changeable, challengeable, and should be understood as his opinion rather than evidence of a gathering new cult!

    That Wagner is asked to address various assemblies with his conclusions only tells us that he is highly respected for his analysis, not that he is some kind of new sect leader! Have you ever taken the time to read any of his books? Do you have any understanding whatsoever of what the so-called New Apostolic Reformation is all about? I doubt it, judging by what you and Bull are sizing up to say. Your ignorance to the truth is causing more problems for the Body than your attempt at a solution to a problem which only exists in your mind.

    As you say in your post on Hattinge, strong words, but they need to be said!

    By the way, my understanding is that Matt Ford is Australian, not American as you suggest. He seems to have an Australian accent, anyway!

    Suzette has recently been very ill and is recovering. Perhaps your fiery darts would be better directed at your own attitude than at a genuine sister in the Lord.

    You really are going way over the top lately, specky. That log in your eye is getting bigger than the Kari forests of WA.

    Said in love of course, just like you do!

    Tom

  11. Here it comes – the Elijah List brigade

    “That Wagner is asked to address various assemblies with his conclusions only tells us that he is highly respected for his analysis, not that he is some kind of new sect leader! Have you ever taken the time to read any of his books? Do you have any understanding whatsoever of what the so-called New Apostolic Reformation is all about? I doubt it, judging by what you and Bull are sizing up to say. Your ignorance to the truth is causing more problems for the Body than your attempt at a solution to a problem which only exists in your mind.”

    Wasn’t this the same gentleman who put the apostolic ring bon Todd Bentley’s finger? Hmmmmmmmmmm.

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/videos-of-c-peter-wagners-apostles-prophets-commissioning-todd-bentley/

  12. I actually said I didn’t know much about Suzette Hattingh in this article but did make the claim that many ministers/ministries ‘pawn’ eachother.

    The fact that the KCP have failed to infiltrate Sydney churches (except for the momma church) are pawning IHOP to PAWN 10KW to get themselves established in Sydney. Hattingh seems to be pawning Peter Madden; their ministry pawning JAAL.

  13. And I can’t comment on Suzette Hattingh – never heard of her until this post.

    These days I look at the links associated with various ministries and it does you a clue where they’re coming from and if there’s an agenda behind it. I’ve made some unwise connections in the past and defended them just as strongly as Facelift. And wow!
    Look what’s happened since! The Pente who became an Anglican!

  14. And yes Facelift, I did read C Peter Wagner’s books. Guess where they are now, same place as Joyner’s – certainly not “blessing” anyone else!

  15. Well, FaceLift is as you described S&P.

    Who’s vitriolic?

    I am very saddened that FL hasn’t taken on board the discipline we meted out … to go away and reflect on the personal attacks and darts he was firing at us all.

    Regarding the ElijahList mob, FL has duly fallen in with them.

    Dominionism is a very dangerous heresy which will take people out of God’s Kingdom, give them a gun and tell them “shoot the Christians who won’t join us!”

    Major Tom can probably respond to this:
    The email that FaceLift sent S&P grossly distorted the true facts about Peter Wagner who is widely seen as the presiding “Apostle” over the NAR. What is the NAR?

    Quite simply it is an organisation of people who believe that Jesus can only come back if the ‘church’ takes over world government. Woe betide you if you don’t agree that the ElijahList false prophets should run your country, while manifesting and spouting blasphemy and also promising to literally kill all those christians who won’t join them.

    Exactly how are they any different to JW’s and Mormons, who also claim to be the only true Christians around? Ah, they have a lot more people and seep into every church, by pretending to be orthodox. So a lot of true christians are mixed up in this too.

    How do you tell false from true? A good start is to ask if they think Todd Bentley is truly repentent for his serial adultery.

    If they think so, ask them if God approves of Todd marrying his mistress while abandoning his wife and children.

    All these people are clubbing, banding together to try and brush Todd’s behaviour under the carpet. Wagner himself may try and forget about all the sin when Todd starts fleecing the sheep again.

    Have you seen his blog? No comments.

    No puff pieces even. Pointless waste of time, as Todd doesn’t understand blogs.

    In despair at Facelift … Shalom

  16. Hi,

    thank you your discussion of our event. I hope and pray that the JESUS ALL ABOUT LIFE SYDNEY CELEBRATION will not glorify myself or Suzette but Jesus Christ.

    It is a difficult thing to move forward strongly in what you believe God is calling you to do in our great nation of Australia without people thinking you’re “big noting” yourself. We call it the “tall poppy chopper syndrome.” My experience with cancer and facing death last year, however, put a determination within me that I would not waste anymore of my life under the concern of what people think of me as I have done in previous years. My only desire is that God be glorified through what I give my life to in the years I have remaining.

    The truth is that we have very little money and we are a small group of volunteers who have “forsaken all” (Luke14:33) to see souls saved in Western Sydney, trying to do a job that is normally done by multi-million dollar church with a large paid staff. I do not receive a wage neither does any of the team.

    A precious couple on our team has paid for 84,000 flyers to go out to every home in Blacktown out of their desire that the broken people of this area might receive salvation and healing. It is they who are important in this discussion not us or our theology.

    I ask, however, simply for your prayers for wisdom as we move forward and that many thousands of souls be saved in the hurting Blacktown and Western Sydney region and that Jesus Christ would be glorified.

    “For He surely deserves the reward of His suffering.”

    Your servant

    Peter Madden

  17. Thank you Peter for a very gracious post.

    I pray that you see people who have never been inside a church before saved at your event.

    Shalom

  18. Yes, lets pray for the events in Blacktown to go well.

    It’s not an area of Sydney which has a lot of money, and it may be well worth having a crusade style meeting in that area. I understand Suzette Hattigh is an experienced evangelist.

    Sorry S&P, but I think ‘Christian Pawn Star’ is an emotive term with allusions that it is unkind to associate with any Christian person of unblemished character, particularly a woman (we are more vulnerable to that kind of aspersion in some ways), and also particularly a person we don’t really know much about, as it turns out. It’s probably helpful to steer clear of that kind of pun as it will discourage discussion of the real issues.

    I think we need to be careful, as Teddy points out:

    “These days I look at the links associated with various ministries and it does you a clue where they’re coming from and if there’s an agenda behind it. I’ve made some unwise connections in the past and defended them just as strongly as Facelift. And wow!
    Look what’s happened since! The Pente who became an Anglican!” – Teddy

  19. Regarding Major Tom:

    REMINDER: When we banned him, we agreed not to discuss him on this website as he has no right of reply.

    I’d be grateful if everyone would continue in this vein.

    If anyone wants to discuss the reasons further, privately, you are welcome to email me at ravingpente@gmail.com, just as FL/MT does. However, I don’t want to publish any further detail, because it may just lead to the situation here that we were trying to avoid in the first place.

    Thanks!

  20. Isnt the poster a little misleading?

    I’d like to ask Peter Madden whether the statements “God has given the churches of Blacktown a $3.5 Million miracle”, “The $3.5 Million advertising will be pointing straight to Blacktown” are strictly correct, or are a bit of hype given that figure is the budget for the whole of Australia.

    Also if your event is the flagship event for “Jesus All About Life”, why is it not mentioned on their website?

    Thanks in advance

  21. If you want to email me, Bull, I’ll correspond with you. YOu can contact me through Specky or RP. My IP is blocked (I’m on the road, on a Mission!).

    I was annoyed with Specky because of the way he treated Suzette Hattingh, who is a wonderful minister of God, a generous person, and whom he knows nothing about, by his own admission, and yet used the ‘pawn (porn) star’ pun in connection with her name. I’d be half a man if I said nothing. Imagine Specky giving that kind of innuendo towards your sister, wife or daughter!!!!!

    He has also been rude to Peter Madden in the process.

    I have send Specky an email in reply to your question. Perhaps he’ll send it to you or add it to the thread.

  22. Point well taken.

    The flyer you see above was designed for discouraged and beleaguered local Blacktown Pastors to encourage them that God is about to do something special for them. I called it our “3.5 Million Dollar Miracle” because I the extraordinary convergence of three things is indeed miraculous.
    1. The JAAL campaign
    2. The coming of international evangelist Suzette Hattingh
    3.The gracious permission and encouragement of the Bible Society to let us call the event the “JESUS ALL ABOUT LIFE SYDNEY CELEBRATION.”

    Having been a Pastor and knowing how tough it can be, especially in an broken area such Blacktown, I know how much in need of encouragement and hope local Pastors are. As an an evangelist my heart is both for lost souls and for the “labourers who are working in the harvest field.”

    Flagship? I have since changed the wording at the Bible Society’s request. I do not want to misrepresent them or the JAAL campaign in any way and you will find no such statement on subsequent flyers or our website.

    My prayer is that I will continue to learn from the mistakes that I often make in my passion and enthusiasm for the cause of Christ.

    Yours sincerely

    Peter Madden

  23. Peter Madden: “Having been a Pastor and knowing how tough it can be, especially in an broken area such Blacktown, I know how much in need of encouragement and hope local Pastors are. As an an evangelist my heart is both for lost souls and for the “labourers who are working in the harvest field.””

    The local pastors in Blacktown do it really hard down there. I was apart of some of the islander ministries down there, and there were indeed many broken people.

    You’ll be in my prayers Peter Madden and for all the work you’ve done and are doing. I know you’re a profound evangelist that really has a true heart for the lost. I really hope there’s miracles and healing’s at the 10KW and that people come to God.

    Peter Madden: “The truth is that we have very little money and we are a small group of volunteers who have “forsaken all” (Luke14:33) to see souls saved in Western Sydney, trying to do a job that is normally done by multi-million dollar church with a large paid staff. I do not receive a wage neither does any of the team.”

    I’ve read other things that seemed to read likewise. But I’ll change it. You would have no reason to make this up.

    Peter Madden: “It is a difficult thing to move forward strongly in what you believe God is calling you to do in our great nation of Australia without people thinking you’re “big noting” yourself. We call it the “tall poppy chopper syndrome.””

    I have seen and felt this bite in the side too. So I am aware that this ‘syndrome’ exists. However, it’s been an effective cheap, quick label to throw on people who are critical on ‘ministries’. I do believe in constructive. But maybe my tone or language hasn’t been that obvious. What I wanted this article to address was three things:

    1. Selecting prophecies we want to hear and choosing which ones to fulfill ourselves. (Another thread has started up on this topic by RP.)

    2. The issues of ministries and ministers ‘pawning’ other ministries and ministers for their own agenda.

    3. Issues of ‘revival’.

    I think it’s important to build each other up in the body of Christ and I merely saw the title of this article to be clever, not offensive. But since people have expressed distaste of the title, I have changed it. (Lances style of humour doesn’t work on this blog either I see!)

    Reading over the article, I didn’t find I slammed Peter or Hattingh. I wanted to explore the above issues. Point out where I did and I’ll fix it up.

    I’ve been pretty fiery lately on a few things, and I’m sorry Peter. And RP, in the future, by all means, edit my articles if you think they might be a bit too fired up.

    I’m dealing with quite a few friends at the moment who are having bad church experiences at the moment from Hillsong, CCC, anglican and baptist churches. I’m just wondering while I’m dealing with these weighty issues with their problems and constantly hearing them, that they are affecting me much on here.

    I think that is why I want to pull back from Signposts02 until I feel I am control of myself. I actually felt I needed to reply to this, so now I’ll be off again and just lurking… lurking… *poof*

    If it’s ALL ABOUT JESUS, let’s expect that when people leave 10KW, that it’s JESUS they’re talking ALL ABOUT. 😀

  24. Actually, RP is correct regarding FL/MT … 😦 oops.

    And MT(FL) you do have a point about the provocative title.

    S&P you were wrong with the thread title … and it looks like some of the content too!

    hmm … looks like I am pushing a lot of people’s buttons lately 😦

    Shalom

    PS, I am considering the correspondence with FL.

  25. Thanks Bull. Do email me if you want FL’s email to correspond with him. FL, if you change your mind and don’t want me to pass your email on, let me know.

    S&P – there is no way I’m going to edit your articles!! (Or anyone’s here.) They’d turn into a reflection of me and my views, not you and yours. I am not an administrator, though Heretic has emergency powers, but he is not around enough to be a regular site administrator.

    Basically, those who post here are responsible for the content and tone of whatever they post, and nobody else. That’s important.

    We all learn as we go, too, and are subject to all kinds of correction, from regulars on this site, and from others who just drop in.

    Mind you, I did do those guidelines some time ago – maybe I should try to find the time for Heretic to have them put them up on site.

    If we follow those, they should hopefully keep us from crossing any lines that we don’t want to cross when we are in a calmer frame of mind. 🙂 Might avoid a little bit of subsequent pain if we do that.

    Hope you enjoy your lurking, S&P. You’ve certainly got this blog moving again!

  26. PS: Bull – FL did send S&P and I an email to pass on to you – if you would like me to, send your email to me at my address above. Cheers, RP

  27. Contrition and reparation noted. I will now retire (on this site, at least) unless otherwise requested or instructed.

    Maybe there’s something in being under covering (including discipline?) afterall!

  28. As much as I find it tempting to read Facelifts material, I have decided to just delete them so that I wont be tempted to post them up.

    I’ll be relying on people here to tall me if I am being unfair with my views or thoughts on issues.

  29. i just read his last one before posting the above.

    if I see a minister pawned like I’m seeing Madden treated as such by Hattingh, I might comment about that on Signposts02. It’s only now through this, that I can see possible dangers of doing so…

  30. Here is more information about JAAL’s involvement with 10KW.

    I THINK, JAAL is getting a bit crossed with navel-gazing, then looking at telling people about Jesus.

    Maybe they’re hoping to see 10KW actually bring revival?

    Check out the link:

    http://home.exetel.com.au/10000warriors/10000_warriors_video.html

    I’m tempted to go just for the international choir and worship! Might see some of you there, then we can all report how we were all wrong about this!

  31. I wonder what ever happened to this so called revival?

    Poor Peter Madden and Suzette Hattingh. 😦

  32. Greetings all!

    Found this blog when I was looking for something else. I’m very sorry to hear IHOP has infected Australia. You guys deserve better.

    IHOP has torn my family in half. They convinced my son to cut off all communication with me back in 2007. I’ve yet to hear from him.

    IHOP also promotes Contemplative Prayer (amongst other false teachings) which is nothing but New Age transcendental meditation. Very occult.

    I believe we’re very close to Christ’s return. He warned us that IF it were possible it would deceive even the very elect..and the elect at IHOP are absolutely being deceived – my son included.

  33. Hi SadParent! Welcome to Signposts02.

    Sorry to hear about your son … cutting off contact with family is very cult-like.

    Shalom.

  34. Bull said:
    ‘Regarding the ElijahList mob, FL has duly fallen in with them. Dominionism is a very dangerous heresy which will take people out of God’s Kingdom, give them a gun and tell them “shoot the Christians who won’t join us!”

    Major Tom can probably respond to this:
    The email that FaceLift sent S&P grossly distorted the true facts about Peter Wagner who is widely seen as the presiding “Apostle” over the NAR. What is the NAR?

    Quite simply it is an organisation of people who believe that Jesus can only come back if the ‘church’ takes over world government. Woe betide you if you don’t agree that the ElijahList false prophets should run your country, while manifesting and spouting blasphemy and also promising to literally kill all those christians who won’t join them.’
    ••••••••••••••

    I’d be delighted to respond. Thank you for the opportunity. I can confidently say that most of this is incorrect, starting with any association I am said to have with the Elijah List, also an accusation made by Teddy. I have never known anything about them, and still don’t. Not really interested in wasting my time finding out either, so I guess that gets that one out of the way!

    I am not personally in total agreement with all the views of C Peter Wagner, and would not consider myself a disciple, although I hold similar views on some subjects, but I do believe he is a genuine Christian gentleman and brother, and should be treated with rather more respect as an elder and a minister of God.

    Wagner never was, nor is, the head anything over NAR. He is the head of the Wagner Institute, a teaching organisation.

    The New Apostolic Reformation was a name given to an unconnected series of movements with similar attributes, which began at various times in different places worldwide, before Wagner was any more than a professor of church growth at Fuller Seminary. They were movements Wagner studied and came to the conclusion that it was a verifiable move of God, and that the similarities could be measured and reported. Wagner has, as a result of his investigations and books on the subjects, been naturally seen as a very capable spokesman on these subjects, and, over time, has become a senior statesman, and a highly respected expert in the area.

    To my knowledge he has neither overseen dominionist doctrine, nor is it true that he has ever demanded violence against anyone who does not share his views. I find the accusation of violence against opposers of NAR not just a preposterous statement, but extremely defamatory. He is on public record as saying that he will correct any view he has in any books in subsequent reprints should he be found to be inaccurate, and has, by his own admission, been counselled to change some of his perspectives as his peers have directed him. This doesn’t sound like the attitude of a violent tyrant.

    My comments to s&p in a private email conversation were neither grossly distorted, nor inaccurate, but merely my understanding of the situation, a view I continue to hold. I also deny his accusation of being psychotic (levelled by s&p).

    The idea of Wagner heading up an organisation which aims to kill Christians and dominate the world through violence and force before Jesus can come again is preposterous*.

    I hope this clears things up for you, Bull!

    Also, endtimespropheticword, referenced here, is very inaccurate in much of what it opinionates, and should be understood very carefully.

    *It should be noted, of course, that the second coming of Christ, when he will reveal the wrath of God with all authority and power, will, indeed, be a time of great despair on the earth! 🙂

  35. Hey SadParent. I’ve heard a few testimonies about similar things. I’ve lost friends to it too.

    Jesus does condemn leaders for doing this. And this IHOP stands under this same condemnation in what the pharisees did. It’s scary what Jesus says and how this sounds like the IHOP ministry and there facade:

    Mark 7:6-23

    He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
    ” ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

    And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

    Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him ‘unclean’ by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him ‘unclean.’ ”

    After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” …

    He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean.’ For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’ ”

    ————-

    This is a warning again to anyone who is on this page:

    Burn 24/7’s are connected to IHOP and are now in churches around Sydney. They WILL specifically target youth, promote KCP and NAR doctrines, teachers and ministries. If anyone is apart of a Burn 24/7, test the spirit yourself. If your church has a Burn 24/7, test the doctrines and spirits.

    It’s usually the youth that will want to start a Burn24/7 in the church. Speak them out of it or at least have a 24 hours worship day with out the connection of the Burn and do not say ‘yes’ to any of the teachings associated with it.

    The one who is promoting IHOPS crafty and deceitful work is Sean Feucht. He is probably a nice guy who sincerely believes he is doing Gods work, but is merely an IHOP pawn in all this. If he realised what he is actually doing, he’d probably stop.

    This is him:
    http://burn24-7.com/category/blog/seans-blog/

    The Burn24/7 / IHOP beliefs are manipulative. They promote the Bridal Paradigm and other doctrines so that people don’t leave their movement (as parents and some churches are finding out).

    New Earth Tribe, New Life Baptist Church, 10 KW (still may be in operation) and Dayspring have Burn 24/7’s.

    http://burn24-7.com/2008/thunder-down-under/

    Queensland WATCH OUT!

  36. THUNDER DOWN UNDER

    thunder down under l stuck in LAX airport

    Staring out over the glorious thick smog that covers LA on our rapid descent…I am pretty tired and weak after a wild and intense 45 days to start the new year. I heard one guy preach last year about how when God pours out His Spirit in the “latter day” movement and revival is unleashed…the people of God are going to have to be in the best physical shape of their lives to keep charging ahead. That truth is hitting home for me right now.

    But at the present moment of exhaustion… I feel an expectation and exhilaration rising so fast in my spirit about this two week journey that is causing my heart to race at ridiculous speeds inside my chest. Simply put – I feel God all over this. Its the craziest and strangest feeling because my heart BURNS for the hardest, darkest, and hopeless places on earth (Asia, Africa, Middle East, etc)…and not to say that Australia and New Zealand aren’t dark and hard in their own way…but I never pictured myself having a heavy burden for such a modernized region of the world. I’ve been reading lately about the massive exploding global hippie movement on the “Gold Coast” (the most eastern tip of Australia). There have been massive prophetic words about this region being the key for Continental Reformation. This is the first stop we’ll be BURNING, Training, imparting and releasing artists at. Our mandate is to unleash PRESENCE hippie freaks to BURN and cry out to Heaven – “OPEN UP THE EASTERN GATE TO THE NATION” (EZ 43:4)!!!

    Every time I pray this..I keep getting crazy pictures of Lonny Frisbee baptizing thousands of hippies in the pacific ocean during the Jesus Movement and them falling out under the power of the Holy Ghost. It really happened then…I’m dreaming it could happen yet again. Maybe God will use this vertical explosion of day and night worship and prayer to shift the stuff we can’t see and release the things we can see. People for generations have been longing for this stuff. So my question is – why not now Lord in this hour and why not with us? We’re foolish and gullible enough to think that you actually will do it.

    Australia and New Zealand sit as nations of promise isolated from the rest of the world in the South Asia Pacific. The water even “swirls” the opposite way down there (in toilets, hurricanes, and the in the Spirit glory cloud!!)…i’m kinda looking forward to seeing that honestly. This land has an inheritance and is up for grabs right now for a generation. We long to see this PS. 132 mandate take root in these nations and for a SUSTAINING movement of artists, musicians, and LOVERS contending as “watchmen on the walls” be raised up to BURN BRIGHT until Jesus returns to the earth. Please be in prayer for our time the next two weeks…my wife and I felt so strongly from the beginning that the Lord was in this…and this stirring with the Spirit inside me confirms it.

    MAY THE FLAMES OF LOVE RISE HIGH FROM AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND TO ATTRACT THE ATTENTION OF THE WORLD!!!

    Here is our schedule so you can keep us in your prayers:

    Feb 12 – Leave DFW (takes two days to get there!!)

    Feb 14-17 – Byron Bay (Gold Coast) – Burn Launch and Hippie Conference

    Feb 18-20 – New Zealand – Nightly worship meetings and strategizing for network of BURN launches. (visiting “MORDOR” from ‘Lord of the Rings’)

    Feb 21-24 – Sydney – Dayspring Church (Bethel Sister Church in Australia) – Worship Conference, youth training, impartation and worship blowout, possible Burn Launch, Meeting with leaders to sustain a continent wide INFERNO!!

    Feb 25 – Leave for Home!

    MORE TO COME…stay tuned! Feel free to pass this email along!!

    Check out the attached flyer from the BURN WORSHIP FESTIVAL!!!

    _sean

    http://burn24-7.com/2008/thunder-down-under/

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