Where Fire It Up Ministries Get Power From…

On October 31, this ministry had experienced ‘an amazing visitation of Heaven’ and are hearing lots of testimonies coming in. Should we be concerned?

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Ministry Update

Glory Explosion at The Wine Barrel!

Dear Partner’s and Friend’s

We have been experiencing an amazing visitation of Heaven since Saturday October 31st.

With awesome testimonies coming in every day. From miracle healings, salvations, incredible deliverances and full blown revelations of Jesus.

The atmosphere here is amazing. As soon as you get near the building you can feel the Holy Spirit as electricity all over your body.

We have had several phone lines installed which will enable us to live stream all our meetings via the internet.  This will be enabled as soon as we can. Until then, the majority of nights will be available for free download from our media web site. www.fireitupmedia.com

We have cancelled Matt’s current travel plans, excluding this weekend with John Crowder and Benjamin Dunn, so that we can run meetings every night. While Matt is away Pastor’s Peter and Andrea who are The Wine Barrel senior pastors will be running the meetings.

To see who is on staff at Fire It Up check out our team page here.

We will endeavour to keep you up to date with what is happening, it’s just a bit difficult with everyone pinned to the floor 🙂

Big Buttery Blessings!


50 thoughts on “Where Fire It Up Ministries Get Power From…

  1. my only comment on this thing is “follow the money”.

    If anyone can go and maybe interview someone who has been ‘healed’ and follow them up, that would be good.

    If someone can go and see what the offering talks are like and report them here, that would be good too.

    If we take Lakeland as an example, the dodgy financial bits were not broadcast. We didn’t see the ATM’s at the back of the big tent on TV. Having said that, what we did see was so bizarre that any sane person would have had serious concerns about Todd Bentley’s understanding of God.

    Subsequently, the fruit displayed in his life shows that Todd was not a minister of God … he should drop out of sight and get a proper job and stop fleecing the sheep.

    Fat chance of that happening.

    Follow the money. Track the miracles. Be good Bereans.

    Miracles do not validate doctrine. Only by being truly consistent with the Bible is doctrine validated. Since the Bible is our yardstick, we need to know it so well we can hold our leaders to account and thereby serve them.

    Matt Ford has demonstrably bad doctrine. We’ve covered him before.

    See how long this all lasts and see where the money goes, if you can.

    And then depression set in. So lets hype everything up and create an expectation in people that can simulate supernatural “feelings” by pumping people full of self manufactured endorphins. Get the adrenal gland working overtime and before you know it … people can’t feel their arthritis, they can’t feel their neck or back pain and wow they get even more excited!

    Time for coffee methinks … especially after that rant.

    You know, I really start to understand Jesus’ anger in the temple. I would really like to whip these people out of the temple too! Making merchandise of God’s people is a terrible sin against God. It makes a mockery of His grace.

    Right … getting really warmed up now!

    Coffee … Shalom!

  2. You can actually BUY ‘Fire It Up Ministries’ t-shirts with the caption ‘Ever Drank God?’ on them.

    Maybe this is wrong, but I find it amusing that they are experiencing more ‘encounters’ then ever on their ‘Lords’ day.

  3. I hadn’t noticed the date mentioned until now.

    Isn’t that interesting? A coincidence?

    hmmm … Coffee …

  4. I am reminded just now of the Armistice Day remembrance … which will be in about 55 minutes.

    We should remember all those who perished and are perishing today for the sake of freedom, or whatever the reason UK and USA are in Afghanistan now.

    Lots of ANZACs died in the world wars and we in old blighty remember them too.

    The reality of war … against the unreality of Matt Ford. Let’s send him to Afghanistan … how would he like to be an Army Chaplain?

    (my usual sign-off seems apt)

    Shalom

  5. I agree with Bull re ‘follow the money’, whatever the ministry. Fundraising is one thing, manipulative appeals for money by promising miracles or an association with success as a result of giving money are another. Those last two tactics in my mind are ones that indicate a ministry that’s going or has gone off the rails, wherever it takes place. Whether they sincerely believe it or not. Of coure, many non-Christians recognise this; the sad thing is that so many Christians are so reluctant to acknowledge it when these things are happening. It’s understandable though; no one wants to believe the place or leaders they love are dodgy in any major way.

  6. For FL’s benefit – I know he’s out there somwhere….the words of Peter…if any passage I have read encapsulates the legitimate and God breathed concerns of many posters on this site and others this is it.

    NB: Peter doesn’t pull back – he states straight up that there ARE false teachers amongst us, and sounds remarkably like a number of churches dotting the country and world today – I am not naming names, but people here know who they are.

    “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

    For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.

    Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

    They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

    These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

  7. Peter really puts it on the line …

    He really kicks ass. Is that macho enough?

    What it means, of course, is that people were already becoming wealthy off the back of the gospel and ignoring the teaching of the 12 Apostles. Notice also in Peters’ letters how he endorses the teaching and letters of Paul.

    Now, some might think he was merely ticked off that he was being superseded by “more anointed” prosperity preachers. That’s the argument being put forward today. “Aw, you’re just jealous …”

    Well … who do you want to sound more like?

    Brian Houston/Joel Osteen/Phil Pringle on the one hand

    or …

    Peter/Paul/James/John on the other hand?

    It’s not much of a choice is it?

    Shalom.

  8. I doubt that Peter knew many Roman Catholics or even Liberal theologians. He probably knew a few greedy preachers who set themselves up with their own movements and deceived people with stories they had made up

  9. Outcast: “At least the faith and prosperity guys give enough of the gospel for a person to be saved”

    Hardly. Eternal life is to know Father, not to treat him as a principle-based ATM machine.

    Prosperity teachers (like yourself since you teach tithing (assuming Outcast is the outcast FL for now)) hide Father behind non-existent “principles” you lot made up. (“You-lot” because if you teach the stuff (even with tweaks like putting “by faith” in front of extra-biblical nonsense) you are one of them).

    Yes people think they are saved by these people and prosperity “churches” say how good they are because they get so many “converts” but these poor people are being conned into religion and superstition.

    These “biblical principles” the prosperity churches go on about are nothing more than religious superstition. “Did I give enough to be blessed”. “Did I obey enough to maintain an open heaven”. “Am I believing enough to get my prayer answered”.

    Does submission to so-called principals bring salvation? Depends what you mean by “salvation” but they don’t bring eternal life. Knowing – having a relationship with – Father does that.

    This other rubbish replaces relationship with Father with a superstition that is called “biblical principles” – so it stops people knowing Father. Prosperity teaching brings salvation? I think not.

    I think you should think again at who Peter is talking about.

  10. “In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. ”

    One fabrication starts with the altar call, when a pastor leading the service keeps repeating ‘I see that hand’; ‘I see another hand’, and so forth, to encourage people to put their hands up – even when they see NO hands.

    People are duped into participating, and it is supposed to be OK because they are coming up the front to ‘get saved’.

    I heard that this technique was taught in Bible College. Perhaps someone else here might confirm whether they’ve come across it as well. Good on those honest pastors who don’t sink to that kind of level.

  11. “and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)…”

    mn – thanks for putting in that long quote from Peter. Rereading it again, I find it very encouraging in a variety of ways.

    Above, Peter talks about how distressed Lot was by the depraved conduct of the lawless while he lived amongst them.

    Most of us here actually get distressed by the conduct of false teachers – the conduct of teaching significant lies that harm people in physical, emotional and spiritual ways, plus other varied abuses of power from positions that are held up as godly.

    All of us will have been accused by someone of being bitter, rebellious or carrying some chip around on our shoulder, to explain our distress.

    Well, this passage shows that when you hunger for righteousness, it is normal to be distressed, and Father sees this for what it is, because He sees our hearts. I don’t know about others here, but when I first realised the magnitude of the tithing lie, I spent hours lying awake at night; the grief of realising the extent and effects of that and other lies taught, drove me to tears. (There are many other things to grieve over; many extraordinary atrocities committed, but nonetheless, that one really sank in at the time, particularly having spent maybe 20 years associated with churches that taught that way.)

    I’m through that part of it now, and I have peace in my walk, but the grief was real, and many of us who wake up to it for the first time will go through it, particularly when we have been closely involved with that scene and care about all the people in it. It’s good to know that the grief is normal, and that our Father sees it for what it is.

  12. Well, Outcast, don’t read the experiences/views on this site if it is distressing. What most of us are saying isn’t false. I don’t know but if one steps back, God forbid stops going to church, searches the scriptures, gets sound advice one gets a new perspective. I know one can get really caught up in “movements” that aren’t really moving, but appear to be doing something. Its tricky

  13. Alright then …

    please list the false assumptions!

    This particular blog is critical of some … particularly when they encourage poor people with debts and not enough money to keep the roof over their head this month to just give everything they have.

    Well, in my Bible, the poor were given to, not taken from!

    What is your position on Don Stewart and his ‘point of contact’ green prayer cloths?

    What is your position on known charlatan Peter Popoff and his ‘Miracle Spring Water’?

    c’mon Outcast. Spill the beans. Who do you know who cons the brothers and sisters with fake miracles?

    Tell us who to watch out for … because we don’t want fake miracles. We want the real power of the Holy Spirit.

    We don’t want financial rules to make us rich in money. We want Fellowship and Relationship with Almighty God to make us spiritually blessed and content with what God himself has given us. We have the chance to gain Godly contentment … which is what my Bible teaches.

    Ultimately … we would all agree that we want to be Biblical.
    We would all agree that we want to fight false teaching.
    We would all agree that anything extra-biblical must pass the biblical test before being reckoned as ok.
    Most extra-biblical stuff doesn’t, and the bits that do so conform to what the Holy Spirit has already said that we do not need to add to the Bible.

    If we want to be New Testament Christians, we will have to start doing things in a Acts Church way.

    So when will PP and BH start sharing everything they have with the poorest in their congregations? (no chance of them selling their properties and downsizing in order to buy houses for the poorest in their churches)

    When will they have breakfast for free with the poorest in their congregations? (it costs $1000 to have breakfast with Brian Houston)

    When will they stop showing favouritism to the wealthiest in their congregations? (The big givers/tithers get shown honour by getting front seats)

    This is public knowledge … James condemns most of this kind of thing in his letter … so how are we over-egging this? C’mon!

    There is something gone rotten at the core of this movement. “The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil” says Paul.

  14. FL “What do you live by if not Biblical priinciples? I.E, 2 Peter 1:5-11.”

    You live in Jesus not through so-called principles. So-called biblical principles that the bible does not teach. Additions to scripture that are used to manipulate. So-called biblical principles are the modern fraudsters’ attempts to reinterpret Jesus words as a new form of law to control people.

    Tithing is a perfect example. People such as yourself twist the scripture in knots to come up with “principles” that will get people to give you their money (although you probably just use someone else’s convenient pre-twisted doctrine to be fair). It can’t be done from scripture so you make it “tithing by faith” (I remember the discussion – how can I forget the logic). Just one example of many so-called biblical principles but oh so prevalent. I can see why you step up to the plate to support the fraudsters. It is called “moral hazard”. Completely human and appropriate moral hazard.

    The passage you reference is a good one but does not talk about principles – but it does show how we should live and so answers your own question which is good.

    What it does talk about is for the following purpose: “in regard to the acknowledging of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Living in acknowledgment of Father is how we live. Another verse says it again: “in all your ways acknowledge him”.

    Knowing Father is eternal life. Living by man-made principles is not.

    Even if the man-made principles were derived from Truth that does not make them true. Even if they were true (and the ones I have heard from the pulpit are generally not) they are still not life.

    There is no law that gives life – a relationship with Father through Jesus gives life. Nothing else does.

    A bunch of principles to live by is a way to remove someones life from him. That is why Paul railed against the concept so passionately.

    But truly I don’t expect you to get it. It is a stumbling block and an offense.

  15. I agree with your summary, Bull.

    ‘False assumptions’… its not an assumption when you are talking about real situations that you have personal knowledge of, and where others who have been present in the same environment describe similar situations. For example, various teachings heard by multiple people separately, or, items in the public domain – published by a minister/ministry, which are then discussed.

  16. Outcast: “What do you live by if not Biblical priinciples? I.E, 2 Peter 1:5-11.”

    Umm… The gospel!

  17. RP: “Oh – S&P – that is a provocative new site banner!”

    If you want, I can change it. I’ve come to the sad conclusion that is exactly what it is. I’m dealing with more victims from this movement who are afraid to think or have an opinion for themselves.

    It’s tragic. Not to mention to have been personally manipulated countless times by staff there. I’ve been seeing dirty things by people in staff their that are putting people’s lives in such bad health because money IS exchanging hands.

    If you want, I can change it, but personally, C3 has sunk to new depths. I’m calling it for what it really is and not for what I hope it isn’t anymore. I am incredibly sad for the state the church is in. I will personally change it when people stop getting crushed by it’s cultic, gnostic and spiritual abuse.

    If you’d like to talk to me about it, you’re more then welcome.

    “There you have it, RP. ‘C3 cult’! I empathize with your distress over these things, RP, but there are those of us who are distressed equally about the false assumptions made about ministries featured on sites like this one has become.”

    Outcast.

    These are NOT false assumptions!

    There is proof after proof after proof. Testimony after testimony. Witness after witness. I have just seen it AGAIN! It is a continual thing that I am WITNESSING there! There is mental, spiritual and emotional abuse that is ACCEPTED in the walls of the C3 Church movement. I see the filth that C3 pumps onto their people and it is disgusting. More people are hurting there then ever before! I’ve tested what is said – it is error. They choose to ignore being corrected. “Everyone else is wrong”, but never them. Their influence affects other churches terribly and they indeed STEAL other churches members. They use cheap manipulation tactics because it is continually done on people I love there. They are hurting families but parade ‘love’, but lack any true understanding of truth and love.

    I know because I have witnessed this FIRST HAND. I’ve denied C3 for too long in being a cult because I always try to carry hope for the better rather than doubt the worst. I hope more against my overall gut feeling. My gut feeling was right all along. They are hurting too many churches and people. They steal from churches and people. They manipulate churches and people. People are afraid there. People are encouraged not to think for themselves. People are guilted and pressured there to do things that they don’t want to do.

    The epistles would have no trouble in condemning C3 as a cult for they would be examined through the lens of love, gospel, theology, truth and Spirit. Don’t you know that love does actually hate? Love hates wickedness. And no wonder, I’ve seen wickedness there again and again. AND I’VE ENDORSED IT TOO because it is the C3 way.
    So will you accuse me that my EXPERIENCE of this cult is an ASSUMPTION?

  18. Unfortunately, because of my relationships with people there, I can’t speak too freely on here about this. They do monitor websites or forums like this.

  19. I have found that C3 elevates ‘principles’ more greatly then the gospel. I believe if you put the gospel first, the Spirit will allow those ‘principles’ to flow out of you. To always focus on principles more then the gospel is gnat straining. However, this deserves another thread to be discussed about. Not here. And since it has occured to me Outcast, that you are Facelift (I’ll have to check up on that), I’ll have to get the flyspray out again.

  20. Peter’s words: “Blackest darkness is reserved for them.”

    Pretty stark – very stark and very bleak.

    And the people who get conned?

    “It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.”

    This is desperately sad stuff, and to be fair applies to all churches and denominations. However….

    My oldest son who knows nothing really of Signposts and the issues it concerns itself with – checked a few places out with some Christian friends from Uni – and scathingly told me the story about the offering talk from a Pente rally…..

    “Now you might be thinking what does God want from your wallet… the 50 or the 5….both.”

    He has considerable sense and dismissed it for the base manipulation it was, and never went back.

    Now I’m not naming names – not my circles – but others can….and all oh so easy to refute if not true.

    But the same crappy arguments and red herrings keep getting trotted out.

    Meanwhile people are drowning under the burdens of the false hope.

    And who is responsible?

    You see Peter didn’t say there might be false teachers among us – he said they are among us.

    So wriggling and squealing like a piglet smeared in butter being wrestled to the ground – which is absolutely your way FL – does you no credit – because you continually deny the bleeding obvious, rather than have the integrity to face it and deal with it.

    And don’t give me the crap that I don’t know anything about you, what you do blah, blah, blah – I’ve listened to your rubbish for must be nearly three years now.

    Same cycle….piss people off …excommunicated…weasel back in with some placatory words that sounds half right. OK give only to repeat the same same cycle over and over again ad nauseum.

    You just don’t seem to get that you can’t talk people out of the hurt they have clearly experienced at the hands of the leaders of these churches.

  21. I think too that members that have contributed so much (money/time) to a megachurch have the most to lose and they find it hard to face. Also not taking scriptures preached as Gospel, pardon the pun, read just the first 2 books of the NT, take notes in church, test all things

  22. mn said:

    ‘Peter’s words: “Blackest darkness is reserved for them.”

    Pretty stark – very stark and very bleak.

    And the people who get conned?

    “It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.”

    This is desperately sad stuff, and to be fair applies to all churches and denominations. However….

    That’s why I think we do need places like this on the internet. You can’t usually talk anyone out of what they believe, right or wrong. However, if we have sites that look at the issues, then they can be found by people who are out there actively searching for them, who are ready to begin examining things from a different angle.

    That warning in Peter for the people who are conned is chilling. It shows how important it is to question and test everything we hear (as you pointed out, mj). Any church that discourages this questioning process is suspect. Particularly if their colleges discourage it, rather than just respond to questions with convincing answers.

    MJ – I agree with you re those who have the most to lose. It’s a very sad truth. Among the most tragic, I think, are the pastors who lose their livelihoods after some debacle. For example the Centrewest pastors whose building fund imploded, losing the houses of members who’d taken out mortgages in order to give. Those pastors should never have encouraged that kind of thing, but I understand that they were ditched by the church, and wonder how they now make a living – they were scapegoated, I think, since the mother church supported their building fund program, but all blame appeared to fall on their shoulders.

    The more inner the circle you are in, the more you lose if you want to address problems that others don’t want to admit to, and the more potential for pain and loss if it all goes wrong or if you are ejected.

  23. Outcast will you say which church you are from? Or was it written earlier. I don’t think anyone says prosperity teaching leads to salvation but what Ive heard being preached that tithing to the church is a given if you want success or blessing. This is currently the preaching of the church I frequented. Other stuff being preached may be in line with Jesus’s teachings but not the entire service is based or has been based on His words. Yes sometimes the preaching hits the mark that’s how people get caught up, that’s how they stay/believe/continue

  24. You are right mj – it is a mixture, and sometimes the preaching does hit the mark, which is one reason why people with misgivings about other things persevere for a long time.

  25. A heartfelt and genuine ‘sorry’ and repentance can do wonders.

    The lack of taking ownership, by those that should.

    A seeking after Christ, rather than using Him to achieve other ends.

    This is what is missing.

    This is reason for the anger.

    For the many who have come out of many denominations and congregations…not just pente.

    What do you expect?

    I’m sick of denial.

  26. Yes rp that’s why I stayed for so long, sometimes I’d think, “it’s not so bad” or whatever then something would be said or done and I’d think that’s not scriptural or right and then I left…..actually I “had” to leave, I had no choice, which was good in a way

  27. mn I think people who don’t apologise think it means admitting they were wrong, happens in all walks of life too but it’s really gross when it’s a church leader/preacher/pastor

  28. I think you summed it up well, mn, in all those points.

    Denying it just perpetuates it whereas owning it could bring progress.

    Yes, mj, admitting we are wrong is one of the hardest things for anyone to do, particularly if they’ve invested a lot of themselves in something, and we do all sorts of things to perpetuate our own rightness, even things which at first glance look like they are costing us.

  29. I also believe that alot of the leaders are very savvy and smart and will be “caught in their cleverness” (somewhere in NT) so Outcast if someone doesn’t pull them up who will….and when you think about it they may need their souls saved which is actually kind of people on this site to try and do

  30. I’m sorry for pulling the rug out from everyone’s feet here, but Outcast, has proven to be Facelift. Since we banned him ages ago (for threatening someone on these forums), he can’t help himself but do whatever he can do buzz around Signposts and get up the nose of everyone.

    He is BANNED! Therefore, his posts have been removed too. If you think it’s Facelift, don’t reply to the mad fly. Sorry about this inconvenience.

    Like the umbilical brothers ‘fly’, when you think it’s squashed, it always comes back no matter what you do.

  31. mj – it happened in an old thread; FL said something which sounded like a threat to find and expose my identity, which he may have been able to do if he set his mind to it. However, he has since apologised multiple times, and I believe he is sincere – I don’t bear him any grudges. It was probably written in the heat of discussion and may well have come across the wrong way.

    FL has repeatedly emphasised that he has never intended any threats and has no intention of threatening or carrying out any threats towards anyone on this site.

    I’m reiterating this now, as he has no right of reply and the subject has been brought up in a post.

    Now – as for his banning – in brief, this site was very frustrating for a lot of us prior to that incident; I was (perhaps wrongly) reluctant initially to ban him when I was administrating because I don’t want to censor real discussion; however, his comments were frequently the catalyst for things to descend into the kind of conversations that actually drove other people here away from the site.

    Since his banishment, we now have maybe less total comments, but regular participation from more people. I regard him as a brother in Christ, but feel that his banning is helpful for the site. Its not about us all having to agree on things, but more to do with maintaining an environment here where its possible to talk about the things we want to talk about without being continually frustrated in a variety of ways.

    FL – all the best from me; please forgive any offence. I’d be grateful if you’d continue to respect our wish for you to refrain from participating here.

  32. Hear hear RP.

    I agree with your assessment. Essentially, it was my acceptance of the necessity of banning FaceLift for a time that brought it to an end.

    I have been reluctant to have private dialogue with him … essentially because my identity might become public knowledge when it doesn’t need to. People can abuse anonymity so we must be careful what we say and we must be so sure that what we criticise is the truth
    that we are not bringing good ministries into disrepute.

    FL can’t help himself though and frequently comes on here despite the ban (I hope he reads this) … he does stimulate discussion but we must be sensitive to those who come here and do not wish to have a robust confrontation with a person who defends, what is in their experience, a spiritually abusive system.

    It is not everyone’s experience … but many are chewed up and spat out. I expect there are many churches with a large ‘churn’. They would be devastated to learn that people have left because they don’t feel they fit in or that they have been insulted by the leaders or that they are simply not a part of the corporate vision of the church.

    It’s a terrible truth. But many sound churches have ‘churn’ because the people don’t love one another. A part of that is they don’t love the Father enough.

    Shalom

  33. I do agree. FL did energise and stimulate debate but it was always by conflict.

    One thing I learned from him – its always possible to debate either side of an argument. Just when I thought he couldnt possibly defend or get out of something, he did! Mn’s image of a piglet smeared in butter being wrestled to the ground is very apt, and like that piglet it was very difficult to pin him down on what he did believe.

    The standard of discussion has lifted, there is no question.

  34. Thank you Bull and Wazza, for confirming my sense of how things have turned out.

    “…we must be sensitive to those who come here and do not wish to have a robust confrontation with a person who defends, what is in their experience, a spiritually abusive system…” – Bull

    This is quality is essential, I think, and worth protecting.

  35. Wazza (and mn): “Mn’s image of a piglet smeared in butter being wrestled to the ground is very apt, and like that piglet it was very difficult to pin him down on what he did believe.”

    And the next thing you know you are oinking. Not good.

  36. i’ll just say ditto, and I was one those who jumped ship because I just couldn’t stand it anymore.

    And I still regard FL as a brother well published feelings aside.

  37. I see, yes i found I was rail-roaded a bit when I first came on this site and GS, and I believe, actually have some proof that my former megachurch does know my identity and know I am blogging about the church, although I have never “come out” here and said where I went because I believe they are keeping tabs on me (to a degree).

    I told, former church, why I left and then I saw this site in the Herald and well, I have evidence they are keeping tabs a bit. I was a bit stressed at first but have found strength, through God, this site and close family and friends, (who btw are relieved I have left former church)

    My former partner still attends the church (has remarried another pente now) and Im pretty sure he tells them info. I don’t care anymore “bring it on” I feel secure and happy in Christ and much more in control of my life and doing v well.

  38. Thanks MN and thanks to everyone on the sites as its hard to explain to non-Christians sometimes. I go to a smaller church now and it appears trustworthy although a former member of megachurch turned up and I said to him “you used to go to……..and he said “no, I don’t you” but I remembered him and strangely havent seen him for a while. Its a strange thing being in a religious cult (and I believe it is) I know they would hotly deny that, they are deluded. And I still know others (friends) but sadly I never hear from them anymore

  39. I’m glad that you persevered mj. You seem to have a cheerful temperament and a sense of humour, which probably helps – that’s how you come across to me here, in any case.

    You’ve brought up another topic that might be worth doing a post on – the issue of losing friends when you leave churches. This can have a huge impact on people. Making new friends may still have something missing if you are looking for new Christian friendships yet have lost the Christian circles you were used to before.

    I agree – the things we talk about here are probably hard to understand if you haven’t been through some of them; and some of the dilemmas might not make as much sense to those who don’t share our faith.

    Those who have been there but no longer believe can also understand a lot. My sister is not Christian, but used to be. She understands a lot of these church issues, and knows a lot of scripture. I guess she’s a good example of someone who has been there, but whose faith suffered, partly as a result of the church’s inability to assist with certain spiritual issues at the time.

  40. Yes, one of my best friends was in a pente church years ago and got caught up in all the “meetings”, she had 4 kids too, we often laugh about how we were sort of perfectionists in that area hahaha. But we meant well, we thought it was God’s will etc etc

  41. Thanks MJ for the courage to share with us.

    We struggle sometimes in our daily church situation but thankfully, we also have an online community where we can share, ask questions, learn a bit of theology and help one another to discern the signs of the times.

    Signposts is much much better these days. At least in my humble opinion.

    It’s great to be a part of this community of people. I really missed it when Lance pulled the plug.

    Shalom

  42. I miss Lance as well Bull. (And apparently Lance is the gray haired geezer in the signposts02 banner.)

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