The Serpent Anointing of Bentley!

Bull urgently thought this was worth posting. I totally agree.

This was received as an e-letter from Revelation TV:


by Andrew Strom

I just saw the video of Rick Joyner announcing that Todd Bentley is back ministering every night at Morningstar in North Carolina and now they have so-called “revival” manifestations eerily similar to Lakeland. They also announced that they are streaming these big meetings every night on their new TV channel – and they are greatly promoting the whole thing.

Now I am a tongues-speaking Pentecostal myself – but can I ask a simple question here please? What kind of “spirit” was it operating in the Lakeland revival – when the leader and main focal- point of the meetings (Todd Bentley) was having an adulterous affair behind the scenes? Was it truly the “Holy” Spirit that was anointing something so sensual and unholy? And now that Todd divorced his wife and married his mistress – are we supposed to welcome him back and this “anointing” with him? What is going on here? Rick Joyner has been warned very specifically by high- level ministries not to do what he is doing now – bringing Todd Bentley back into the limelight. And yet it seems he does not care. Apparently the “manifestations” are all that matter.

So what exactly are these ‘manifestations’ if they are seemingly at home in such an unholy environment? Are they from God at all? (I am talking here about the violent “jerking”, uncontrollable laughter, bodily contortions, drunkenness, ‘portals’, strange “angel” encounters, etc.) Why do we not see such an ‘anointing’ in the Bible? Why aren’t Jesus or the apostles promoting these manifestations if they really are true Revival? Why instead do we see these things all the way through the New Age and Hinduism, etc? Do we not realize that many false religions have their own version of “laying on of hands” that results in these very types of manifestations? This ‘spirit’ is not in the Bible – but it is all the way through Kundalini-type Hinduism! Don’t you think this should alarm us?


If you search for Kundalini and Shakti on the Internet, you will find that multitudes of people in the New Age and Eastern religions still experience these powerful manifestations. Often this is with the help of a Guru, who touches them on the forehead so that they can experience a “Kundalini Awakening”.

As researcher Robert Walker wrote in 1995:

“The meetings which mystic Hindu gurus hold are called ‘Darshan’. At these meetings devotees go forward to receive spiritual experience from a touch by the open palm of the hand, often to the forehead, by the guru in what is known as the Shakti Pat or divine touch. The raising of the spiritual experience is called raising Kundalini… After a period when the devotee has reached a certain spiritual elevation they begin to shake, jerk, or hop or squirm uncontrollably, sometimes breaking into uncontrolled animal noises or laughter as they reach an ecstatic high. These manifestations are called ‘Kriyas’. Devotees sometimes roar like lions and show all kinds of physical signs during this period. Often devotees move on to higher states of spiritual consciousness and become inert physically and appear to slip into an unconsciousness…”

And as the guru Shri Yogãnandji Mahãrãja wrote:

“When Your body begins trembling, hair stands on roots, you laugh or begin to weep without your wishing, your tongue begins to utter deformed sounds, you are filled with fear or see frightening visions… the Kundalini Shakti has become active.”

In China there is a popular Kundalini-type movement called ‘Qigong’. When a Chinese Qigong spiritual master spoke in the USA in 1991, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that many in the crowd began to experience “spontaneous movements”. The master told his audience, “Those who are sensitive might start having some strong physical sensations – or start laughing or crying. Don’t worry. This is quite normal.”

When you see videos of these “kriyas” or other Kundalini-type manifestations, you would often swear that you are watching a modern “Impartation”-type church meeting. (And I say this as someone who believes strongly in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I just don’t believe in “alien” anointings infiltrating the Body of Christ! There is a big difference between Kundalini and the real Holy Spirit).

Since 1993-4, I believe a foreign spirit has been allowed to invade the church – first through Rodney Howard-Browne’s ministry – then Toronto, then the Prophetic movement (which I was part of at the time) and on into Lakeland and many other ministries and movements. I urge people now to “test the spirits” just as we are commanded to in Scripture. Do not let just anyone lay hands on you. This is a powerful spirit and it has the backing of a lot of big-name ministries. In fact, these men and women are the very ones responsible for allowing it to spread right through the body of Christ. And one day they will be answerable to God for doing so.

We are specifically warned in the Bible that the Last Days will be a time of “seducing spirits,” false prophets, ‘lying signs and wonders,’ and that we always need to watch for “angels of light” masquerading as the real thing. Why does the modern church not take these warnings seriously? Aren’t we living in the very days that the Bible warns about?

Right now I need to do something that I have never done in such a way before. I have never before published a list of ministries or movements to watch out for. But this time I have to. This sickness has gone on long enough. I urge you to cut yourself off from the following ministries and their tainted “anointings” my friends. Even though some of these people say “good things” at times, it is simply not worth having any involvement with them due to the tainted anointing that they endorse or minister in themselves. Here is the list-

(1) Todd Bentley.
(2) Rodney Howard Browne – the so-called “Holy Ghost Bartender.”
(3) Rick Joyner or anyone connected with Morningstar Ministries.
(4) John Arnott & any connected with TACF (The “Toronto Blessing”).
(5) Peter Wagner of the ‘New Apostolic Reformation’ who claims to be head of a worldwide network of ‘apostles’ – who publicly endorsed Lakeland and will soon preach at Toronto TACF alongside other “false anointing” advocates.
(6) Mike Bickle and IHOP Kansas City (-I lived nearby for over two years – and know how much they are into all this stuff. Mike Bickle promotes it in his book).
(7) Bob Jones – the Kansas City prophet whose ministry is utterly tainted by it all.
(8) Patricia King and anyone else from ‘Extreme Prophetic.’
(9) John Crowder & anyone connected with “Sloshfest.”
(10) Bill Johnson of Bethel church, Redding – who says some good things but publicly endorsed Lakeland and promotes the “false anointing” very strongly behind the scenes.
(11) Heidi & Rolland Baker of IRIS Ministries – who do good work amongst the poor in Mozambique – but who have also carried and promoted this tainted anointing for years.
(12) Randy Clark, Wes & Stacey Campbell, and other key figures from the “Toronto blessing.”
(13) The Elijah List – and almost anyone featured on it.

Of course there are a huge number of lesser-known preachers and ministries who carry or endorse this Kundalini-type “anointing” around the world. But I have concentrated here on the most influential that I know of. It really is an enormous issue in the church. I urge anyone who is a supporter of any of the above ministries to really check them out thoroughly. If you find (as I have) that they carry or endorse this false Kundalini spirit in the church, then please stop supporting them in any way – and whatever you do, don’t let them “lay hands” on you!

I am putting everything on the line to be “naming names” like this. But I believe it is that serious. How on earth did we get to the point where “kriyas” just like Hinduism are spreading through the church?

Please forward this email to everyone you know, blogs and boards, etc. These people are trying to “relaunch” this whole thing right now. Help us get this warning out.

God bless you all!

Andrew Strom.

57 thoughts on “The Serpent Anointing of Bentley!

  1. I actually found what Strom said about Heidi and Rolland Baker a bit too strong. Not sure what to think about that.

    Here’s a view that I think needs to be expressed about them and his article:


    Submitted by michael on Thu, 01/14/2010 – 21:34

    While I am on public record as one who warned people about Todd Bentley well before the much publicized scandal of adultery, I believe this latest email of Andrew Strom (see below) is going to widen the split in the charismatic movement and cause Christians to REJECT each other when God has accepted them.

    If you can read the story of Rolland and Heidi Baker and then agree with the statement made by Andrew Strom “it is simply not worth having ANY involvement with them due to the tainted anointing that they endorse or minister in themselves” – then I think you have misunderstood the heart of our God.

    You will know Christians by their LOVE, and if the accounts of the Bakers’ ministry are at all true, it would be hard to argue that they do not set an example in this area, and in the area of faith also. GOD is clearly at work through them in Mozambique. Should we have nothing to do with them because they have been to Toronto?

    Can we really say that the presence of false things at Toronto means that everything that happened there was devoid of the work of the true Holy Spirit? See, its another mixture and confusion there too.

    Bill Johnson might be wrong about Bentley, but he has modelled well the faith for biblical healing evangelism at a grass roots level like few have in the western world. Should we now discard his ministry and have nothing to do with it?

    Are there any supernatural signs left in Andrew Strom’s ministry today? Though he talks in tongues, is there any evidence of any of the signs of a believer mentioned Mark 16:17-20? There may well be, but I’ve never seen it when I’ve heard him minister the Word of God. Of course, when he preaches people will feel that they have missed the mark, and that’s good. That happens when non charismatics preach also, actually. I think exhortations towards holiness are very important, but they are not the same thing as evangelism.

    Andrew Strom’s post, like so many things in the Body of Christ today, contains a mixture of truth and error. God hates these mixtures. They will cause some to see the good and so accept the evil mixed in, while others will see the evil and therefore reject the good therein. This applies both to Andrew Strom’s position and some of the ministries he condemns.

    Come on Andrew. If your heart is purer and your discernment is better than all the others, and you are indeed qualified to slam lots of highly fruitful ministries, please show us a demonstration of what SHOULD be done.

  2. Strom,
    ‘Now I am a tongues-speaking Pentecostal myself – but can I ask a simple question here please? What kind of “spirit” was it operating in the Lakeland revival – when the leader and main focal- point of the meetings (Todd Bentley) was having an adulterous affair behind the scenes? Was it truly the “Holy” Spirit that was anointing something so sensual and unholy? And now that Todd divorced his wife and married his mistress – are we supposed to welcome him back and this “anointing” with him? What is going on here? Rick Joyner has been warned very specifically by high- level ministries not to do what he is doing now – bringing Todd Bentley back into the limelight. And yet it seems he does not care. Apparently the “manifestations” are all that matter.’

    These are valid questions, and should be asked. Rick Joyner has not done his reputation a heap of good here. Bentley is disqualified simply by his adulterous affair and broken marriage, including a broken family, which must be hurting, and will continue to hurt for many years into the future. Disqualified, not from being a Christian, and from helping others, but certainly from a leadership role in the Church. How long should the discipline period be? I’m not close to the situation or privy to all that has gone on, but he should not be on a national or international platform for some time into the future. Ministry is as much about character and integrity as it is about gifts and manifestations.

    ‘So what exactly are these ‘manifestations’ if they are seemingly at home in such an unholy environment? Are they from God at all? (I am talking here about the violent “jerking”, uncontrollable laughter, bodily contortions, drunkenness, ‘portals’, strange “angel” encounters, etc.) Why do we not see such an ‘anointing’ in the Bible? Why aren’t Jesus or the apostles promoting these manifestations if they really are true Revival? Why instead do we see these things all the way through the New Age and Hinduism, etc? Do we not realize that many false religions have their own version of “laying on of hands” that results in these very types of manifestations? This ’spirit’ is not in the Bible – but it is all the way through Kundalini-type Hinduism! Don’t you think this should alarm us?’

    These are speculative questions at best. He should have stuck to the former paragraph and attempted to answer those questions. Adding things about Hindu worship isn’t helpful. It just shows that he’s read or heard about it and was impressed by it. Nothing here worth considering. Bentley is clearly not claiming Hindu associations or influence. Many manifestations claimed to be observed in other religions are counterfeits of the real. However lying signs and wonders are not actual signs and wonders. If a person is healed or delivered from demons it is not by Beelzebul according to Jesus, because a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. We have to be very careful about what we claim as demonic ‘miracles’.

    ‘The serpent anointing of Todd Bentley’

    I take it this was your title, s&p. How did you come to the conclusion Bentley is operating under a serpent demon? Has the Holy Spirit revealed this to you?

    I ask because I think it is a very dangerous thing for people to make assertions about which spirit is doing what without specific instruction from the Holy Spirit. We are to test every spirit whether it is of God, but not by human logic, which is flawed, or out of personal experience, but by the Word and Spirit.

    Strom names the spirit as ‘Kundalini’, which is obviously a guess. There are seducing spirits, lying signs and wonders, and many other things we have to be aware of, but I don’t get the impression that this spirit has somehow invaded the Church to the degree he claims, and now sent an entire significant block off course.

    The lawyers said the same of Jesus wen he cast out a dumb spirit from a boy! But Jesus made it clear that the devil doesn’t cast out his own demons! The he said that, if he cast out the demon by the Holy Spirit, the Kingdom was present, and they had just blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

    It is no different today. If we are saying the Holy Spirit is some other demonic spirit we are blaspheming.

    It is very possible that Bentley was actually called of God, but it is his character which is at fault not his ability in ministry. This still disqualifies him, but doesn’t make the manifestations demonic. I’m not claiming this is the case, but you have lo be very sure of your ground before publicly naming a spirit to be a serpent spirit, or ‘Kundalini’, or whatever, especially if you don;t know for sure.

    Finally the assertion made that other ministries are to be avoided because of some slim association is wrong. It is one of the things which has been wrong about some of the ‘discernment ministries’ attack on a large portion f the Body of Christ, and should be discouraged.

    My conclusion is that Bentley and Joyner need to examine this ministry in the light of Bentley’s character, fidelity and integrity. Judging manifestations is secondary.

  3. “I take it this was your title, s&p. How did you come to the conclusion Bentley is operating under a serpent demon? Has the Holy Spirit revealed this to you?”

    That’s what kundalini is about. Kundalini – serpent power.

    Do your research Facelift. I did not want to believe this was happening until I got spiritually attacked by one of Bentley’s ministers. That lead to my discovery of Emma-O. If Emma-O is of pagan south-east asian origin, then this spirit is also alive and well. I have observed this behaviour too often now and it profits no one.

    The manifestations are very similar to the Kundalini spirit. Read what I put up on the Ziggy trance thread. So-called Patricia King is endorsing this Kundalini craze. There actions have revealed it too – thank God smarter prophetic men of God made the observations of this vile spirit operating in the body of Christ before Patricia King shot herself in the foot.

  4. s&p,
    ‘I got spiritually attacked by one of Bentley’s ministers’

    Please explain. Who, how?

    ‘If Emma-O is of pagan south-east asian origin, then this spirit is also alive and well.’

    If? Are you not sure?

    I thought Bentey’s Emma was a so-called ‘angel’. Definitely suss, but not necessarily of Asian origin, or Kundalini!

    You are asserting that Bentley is using Kundalini. I’m asking for proof!

    Kundalini is a female entity, meaning ‘snake’. Dict.: ‘latent female energy believed to lie coiled at the base of the spine’. Latent: ‘existing but not yet developed or manifest’.

    The serpent or python spirit is linked with divination. Fortune telling. False prophecy, possibly linked with what is sometimes called ‘Jezebel’ spirit, control through religion and idol worship using a ‘female’ entity, the same spirit which possessed two Jezebels in scripture. I once cast a demon out of a girl who writhed like a snake on the floor until delivered.

    I’ve seen some of the manifestations witnessed in Rodney Howard-Brown’s meetings in Evangelistic Meetings, where demon possessed people enter into almost impossible contortions, such as arching of their bodies, and holding arms and legs in unusual configurations. I’ve ministered to people who do similar things and cast demons out of them. But you never cast demons out without the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

    It is the power of the Holy Spirit which causes the demons to reveal themselves, either by vocal or physical manifestation, so the people being affected can be ministered to and delivered, not so we have some kind of freak show.

    ‘Patricia King is endorsing this Kundalini craze’

    Has she said so in these words, or are you adding ‘Kundalini’?

  5. Isn’t it the Hindu practioners themselves who identify the manifestations of their “gods” through this “kundalini” experience. I’ve heard Todd Bentley talk about the same things happening to him, feeling something coming up through his spine. A demonic spirit takes advantage of anyone opening themselves up to unnatural spiritual practices, including the Hindus. It’s the same demonic spirits, call them what you will.

  6. Firstly, I actually agree with Strom’s observation that:

    “I believe a foreign spirit has been allowed to invade the church – first through Rodney Howard-Browne’s ministry – then Toronto, then the Prophetic movement (which I was part of at the time) and on into Lakeland and many other ministries and movements”. – Strom.

    Its just my opinion, but I agree with him because of my own experience with RHB back in the 90’s, and the mixture that was the Toronto thing. My experience with RHB, is that I went along to his meeting and felt physically ill. This happens to me occasionally when there is an off spirit about something, and as I’ve mentioned here before, was something that the Holy Spirit showed me quite early on after my ‘baptism in the HS’. At the time I went into that meeting without looking for issues; I didn’t have the stance on things that you’ve read me blogging about here. My reaction also upset people I went with, but I couldn’t help what simply was. I might add, that I was also affected by the jerking manifestation myself, prior to that, but didn’t see it as an issue at the time, more of an interesting observation, and a neutral sense about it.

    Re Strom’s comments on Toronto – I don’t think that was all bad or all good. I think it was a mixture. That’s also the consensus among many people I know. But there were in my opinion, things getting a ride with Toronto that were mixed in with some OK stuff.

    I don’t know how black and white we are supposed to be about these things. Even back in the NT, didn’t Paul say that as long as Christ was being preached, that was the main thing, even if some people were using sign and wonder ministries for their own ego etc?

    Anyway, I tend to agree with the criticism of Strom’s view that S&P put in his comments. I don’t think we are well served to have nothing at all to do with ministries who might have made a mistake in one area, but who do undeniably good work in others. Why not support the good work they do? Possibly, they may then be more open to recognising some of the not so good things and reining things in where they need to.

    Bill Johnson of Bethel church is one example like this. In no way do I agree with everything Johnson says or teaches. However, there is some undeniably good fruit in some of Bethel church’s ministries.

    One specific example: The book on parenting that Danny Silk, the Family Life pastor at Bethel church, wrote is really great, and conveys a wonderful sense of Father’s love towards us and how to parent in a way that we learn from Him, including helping our kids learn responsibility for their own actions. Silk credits Johnson for ‘impacting his legacy’ – which includes the great teaching in that area.

    So while I think it is easier to just ‘have nothing to do’ with ministries affected even a bit by this ‘spirit’, I think we are called to do the more difficult thing, which is to use discernment about the nature of our involvement or endorsement. We can support some things while still firmly avoiding others.

    I think each ministry needs to be looked at individually.

  7. Re Kundalini – I would be wary of anything involving manifestations via the spine, because of the associations already described. But do we really know that this is what people experienced? I’d like to hear something more specific too – if Patricia King has actually used the term, that would be very interesting.

    I agree with FL’s first paragraph re his comments on Todd Bentley and Rick Joyner. I’d only add that since actions show character, if TB still has the same character now (ie: has not learnt or grown out of the experience or out of all the mentoring he is apparently getting), then we will see evidence of that character again. Likewise with Rick Joyner. Plus, the public know about them and now have a responsibility themselves to decide which ministry they choose to submit themselves to.

  8. But we can only assess these things through the leading of the Holy Spirit, not by speculation.

    For instance, there are ‘ministries’ which claim speaking in tongues is essentially speaking by demons, and ‘test’ these ‘spirits’ through non-spiritual means which misconstrue what the Word teaches. Invariably these ‘ministers’ deny that speaking in tongues is a modern part of the Christian’s life, and do not, therefore, speak in tongues themselves. One of the methods used, is to sit the tongue-talker in a chair and ask them to say ‘Jesus is Lord’, get them to speak in tongues and ask them what their name is, etc., which is completely misunderstanding scripture. many people believe these ‘ministers’ are of God, but they are deceived and deceive others. Are they any better than Bentley in this regard?

    Coming up with a practice like kundalini, a religious manifestation engaged in by yoga trippers and Hindus, and claiming it is akin to something a minister is engaging in is not helpful. Demons are counterfeiters. They produce a corruption of truth, without the power of truth. They are not creative. They are destructive. They do not elevate. They oppress. They are neither God or gods.

    The key to Bentley’s demise is his character.

    I don’t know why God does this, exactly, perhaps because only he is worthy of glory, anyway, but there is scriptural and historic evidence that God has and will still operate his gifts through immensely flawed vessels. Samson comes to mind. Ultimately it is the character and integrity of a ministry on which they stand or fall, not necessarily their gifts, calling or ability in the Spirit.

  9. We crossed over, RP. Yes, I would have to agree with you that a persons character, if flawed in a certain area, would have to be reflected somehow in ministry. it’s a very interesting area of discussion, but not at all conclusive or clear-cut, so we have to be wary of making assumptions we can’t substantiate.

    So I’ll make an adjustment to what I said earlier, because it was clear that Bentley depended, and maybe still depends, on an angelic being called Emma, for which or whom we have no evidence of scriptural existence. I think this is an important issue. It is the main reason I was not willing to engage in this ministry when it was at it’s zenith in Lakeland, even when a couple of congregation members, after watching God TV, which must take some responsibility, suggested I get involved. My warning then was that there are areas of ministry, such as this, which don’t add up, so we have to watch carefully what unfolds.

    I think the phenomenon of what became a ‘revival’ atmosphere may have been to an extent genuine, in spite of Bentley, rather than as a result of his ‘anointing’, because people are so hungry for God to show himself real and powerful in an era when the supernatural is almost dimmed down on purpose by the majority of Church leaders. And also because of the degree of worship people wanted to engage in at these meetings. So you have more than one dynamic at work here. One of the problems was that men still tend to glorify man rather than God, nd we make heroes out of fallen, falling vessels rather than give glory where it is due.

  10. There are apparently some Hindu sects which speak in tongues. This dosent mean that speaking in tongues is not of God, because as FL said there are other spirits can mimic what God does.

    I dont think its helpful to label manifestations according to whether they are like other manifestations. People might be able to discern the spirit if they had that gift and were there. Otherwise we couldnt say.

    Strom should be concentrating on the words that are preached rather than perceived associations with other religions and other ministries. The reply to Strom’s article that S&P posted is OK, but also focusses on the personalities of those involved – and questions whether Strom is a true charismatic. Both arguments are basically ad-hominem which is not very helpful.

    Its a little strange that what brings these ministries down is not some wild departure from scripture – that can be done with impunity. It isnt strange behaviour like hitting and kicking the people being healed, that is accepted. It is divorce and sexual indiscretion that is not accepted and taken to be the only indisputable evidence of moral failure.

  11. wazza2
    ‘Its a little strange that what brings these ministries down is not some wild departure from scripture – that can be done with impunity. It isnt strange behaviour like hitting and kicking the people being healed, that is accepted. It is divorce and sexual indiscretion that is not accepted and taken to be the only indisputable evidence of moral failure.’

    Valid points.

    To a degree, Bentley is a victim of the kind of naive over-trusting innocence of people who are mostly seeking a God who is All Powerful. They want to see the Almightiness of the Almighty. But they look to men for this rather than God.

    He has entrusted the supernatural with the Church, and in particular with believers, but we have, for centuries, been talked out of it by unlearned leaders, who were more concerned with form and control than gospel power.

    So when rumours of an outbreak of God’s power arise, people flock to the epicentre and a new hero is born. Their naivety is displayed in the fact that they will permit error as long as there is the supernatural on display. Too many unstable ministers are willing to take advantage of this naivety.

    Some ‘outpourings’ are genuine, or start off well, but they always seem to be messed up by the commercialism which follows. You notice that, after a supernatural event of God, Jesus moved on! But even the disciples wanted to make ‘booths’! He moved them on!

    So do we make a religion out of the genuinely supernatural and turn it into a form of idol worship?

  12. FL … I almost totally agree with you.

    Was Bentley operating under the Kundalini spirit?

    I can’t say for sure.

    Was the Kundalini Spirit operating in the midst of the Toronto ‘wave’ that flowed across the global church?

    Yes it was. I experienced it by observing and interacting with others. That whole experience did not bring me closer to God or get me into the Bible or bring me to tears of repentance.

    I saw people having hands laid on them by people who are still in ministry in South Wales.

    One person in particular was, shall I say, rather energised by the whole experience … even a couple of weeks later. While standing with her in conversation with others, I happened to place my hand on the small of her back and felt a jolt of electricity move up my arm. I backed off very quickly. She continued, during the ‘student’ weekend away to be quite sensual with a number of other young men. I found out, more than a decade later, that the small of the back is a very sensitive spot for those who practice kundalini.

    It might be a bit of a stretch to link these two things but I can’t explain it as the Holy Spirit operating in her.

    During “Fakeland” I watched God TV several times. I felt physically sick every time, until I turned the sound completely off. Then I was … ok.

    People say “But God showed up at …”.

    My response is: “God did not show up. He was already there. And here. And everywhere there are 2 or 3 gathered in His name.”

    I don’t think the devil hijacked the ‘revival’ at Lakeland. Rather, God Himself hijacked what was going on in Lakeland and exposed Bentley very, very publicly.

    A man sows exactly what he has been reaping. The fact that Joyner is rushing Bentley back into public ministry really begs the question “What is motivating Joyner?”


    People will flock to this new thing. But they will have the event they deserve. And God has already pronounced judgment on them. Those with itching ears will attract preachers who tell them what they want to hear, and they will reject preachers they need to hear.

    “Revival, Revival” is the cry … but there is no revival. Our hope is not in a revival. It is in the return of Jesus!


  13. Great post Bull.
    While people cry revival Jesus cries ‘I am in you and in the person beside you. In an age where people don’t know how to love, love me next to you. My love is alive.’

  14. Mmmmmm. It’s wise to discern, but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

    I saw Rodney Howard-Browne (a long time ago now) at the Brisbane convention centre. He didn’t actually talk about much – so there was nothing to judge there. Near the beginning of the meeting he called the first two rows to the front, if they could feel something tangible of the Holy Spirit. I happend to be sitting in the second row. I didn’t feel anything, so didn’t go forward for prayer. So in front of 12,000 people I was stood up on my own.

    After a couple of minutes I stumbled into my chair (and just thought that was a little clumsey). I tried to stand back up but fell to the floor (my first thought then, was that I was worried about my new trousers and I should get up).

    I didn’t get up until the meeting ended. But while I was there was very aware of the ministry of the Holy Spirit – it definately wasn’t any other spirit.

    In the early days of the Toronto blessing, I was also on the ministry team for a week and later spent time (in a church setting)with John & Carol Arnott while they were in Sydney. I ministered with them and watched closely. John himself has never manifested in any way (that I’m aware of), never prayed for it or even addressed it that much. Everything he said centred on the love of the father.

    I would tend to agree with FL that a lot of out pourings start off in the Holy Spirit, but then get high-jacked by commercialism. But, as RP said, just righting everything off regardless is the easy option.

  15. According to Rick Joyner’s latest ‘report’ on Bentley, he’s been released into limited preaching within the confines of their own ministry at Morning Star, not out into the general churchisphere, physically, at least. The next phase, at lest six months away, will be to allow some excursions to churches allied closely to Joyner’s network. He doesn’t expect Bentley to be out and about in the body for some time.

    The problem, at this time, is with broadcasting Bentley’s messages online, or by DVD. It doesn’t seem very sensible. It would be better to keep them in-house until there is assurance of restoration. How long this should take I couldn’t tell you. He left his wife for another woman! Married another woman! He left his kids! That should be the focus here.

    Separation and divorce was his choice. He chose another woman over his own wife, his own family, and consequently over his ministry. You can’t have it all! He could have chosen to serve God and work things out with his family. People could have respected that.

  16. Yes, I agree, FL. It doesn’t seem sensible. It looks as though they are more interested in the ministry than the healing that needs to be demonstrated within the man and those around him over time. But ministry is never more important than the work within a person’s character. Ministry of any kind in any setting will in the long run be the outworking of a person’s transformed inner character. So for those in any kind of public ministry, its paramount that major falls are really taken seriously, that people affected are all assisted in restoration where possible, and that God’s work in them is not cut short, just for the sake of getting them back into the public arena.


    The Toronto thing was interesting. I can’t remember anything which aroused such contrasting reactions within Pentecostal circles. Members of the same church would have different opinions of it. Most people did check it out in some setting or another.

    I have a friend who testifies that they were greatly helped by the Holy Spirit in that time, during laughing manifestations. I think it was healing of grief.

    Its possible that only the people who really needed whatever God wanted to do in that time, were deeply affected by it in this positive sense. Others would have been making themselves available to the experience just in case God had something for them in it, and may have experienced some kind of manifestation, but with no noticeable change in their life.

    And then there were the other more dubious manifestations – barking like dogs, etc. Plus some of us had reactions like I did, where we felt ill. But not consistently, or in all meetings. That’s why I think it was a mix. From memory, John Wimber thought it was a mixture as well, which led to a split between him and the Vineyard churches elsewhere. Correct me if I’ve remembered that wrong.

  17. There was a split between Vineyard and the Toronto fellowship because of the weird clucking and barking, amongst other very strange things.

    Whatever happened to “decently and in order”?. It shows that absolute bedlam was a 1st century phenomenon too … which Paul stamped down on very firmly. We are too insecure to take such a stand because we have become as a body so biblically illiterate.

    Regarding Bentley … you know the focus of “Fakeland” was cash. Multiple mobile ATMs at the back of the big tent tell us everything we need to know about that crook.

    Baptising in the name of the Father, the Son and the “Bam” is just blasphemous. The Father showed him up and exposed his wicked ways … and yet people will continue in the deception.

    The argument is “who’s perfect?”, “God will always used flawed man” and even “who are you to judge?”.

    My answer is the New Testament. Read Galatians. Read Jude. Read Corinthians. Read the letters to Timothy and Titus.

    Judgment begins in the household of God.

    Bentley is tried and found guilty of bringing the Holy Spirit into disrepute.

    And the people still love it so. 😦

  18. I saw Todd Bentley on God TV, my first thought that this man had no peace. Always shouting (shouting something doesnt make anything more true) and be so intense.

    Seemed to me that he had alot of pride that HIS ministry would bring revival (not alone there). People who take themselves too seriously always want to be in control and this bloke had it in shades.

    I was not surprise when his marriage broke up and he started to frink heavy again. This man is a control freak and I hope that people do go along with his delusions.

    Wouldnt be surprised that man doesnt have bi polar or so other condition.

    I hope that God sorts him out and brings peace to life.

    By the way I think that the Snake spirit is totally bullshit.

  19. I don’t know – I had a look at that public rebuke video, and it just seemed so tawdry. Surely rebuking him in a meeting like that just makes the rebukers look like loonies, and in this case, they already seem to lack compassion in other settings as Bull pointed out.

    Personally, I think that given his actions were publically exposed, its up to individual people now to decide for themselves what they think. That kind of rebuking is just another kind of sensation creating action in this context, which can’t really do much good at all.

    In terms of ‘rebuking’, a relationship is probably needed. The people rebuking him have no relationship, so why would he listen to them? Would anyone here listen to a total stranger who just came and abused them publically in a meeting?

  20. i think these ministers or these rebukers are feeling threatened and cornered by Morning Star’s Fresh Fire Ministry.

    i would too i guess. but i would earnestly fast and pray to see what God would want me to do about it and see if God would respond to my condition first rather than respond in such a spotlight fashion these guys did.

    was it wrong? i don’t know. but at least Bentley and his congregation know that ministers and other Christian’s aren’t happy with Todd and Joyner’s handling with a lot of these situations. That to me is a win.

  21. ‘Was it wrong?’

    ‘Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.’ 2 Tim.2:22-26

    ‘Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.’ Titus 2:1-2

    ‘Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.’ Phil.1:15-18

  22. Boy Teddy! You know where to find the most convenient resources at the most convenient time!

    I’m proud that Daniel is trying to be so transparent on these matters. Good on him.

  23. In the inability to see the videos at this time, I can only speak from my heart.

    I agree with FL’s quotes. There is another he could have quoted, however. The one from Acts, where Peter and Paul have a very public argument in Church. The dispute is weighed and judged by James (the just) and Paul is vindicated.

    Bentleys personal moral failure is symptomatic of a generally accepted theological quagmire.

    As Bentley preaches a different Jesus and a different Gospel, it is inevitable that believers in the true Jesus of the Bible will be persecuted by Joyner and Bentley and Wagner.

    This is your early warning system. It is almost certain that this latter rain heresy will worm its way into C3 and Hillsong.

    Folks … we need to pray for C3 and Hillsong … that they don’t fall into this latter rain heresy which is surprisingly close to Mormonism … little gods every one .. and we are all to become the manifest sons of God. The Joel’s Army of the Latter Rain.

    No second coming necessary. We will perfectly manifest Jesus before we die … hmm.

    “Eat this fruit and you will become like God.”

  24. “This is your early warning system. It is almost certain that this latter rain heresy will worm its way into C3 and Hillsong.”

    It’s already in. But only in strains. The KCP are in Melbourne, influencing the big churches down their terribly. In Sydney, the IHOP Burn 24/7’s are attracting the youth from Hillsong, Dayspring, Jubilee, C3 and other denominations. Pastors have expressed their concerns of the Burn 24/7’s from IHOP.

    Dayspring, Jubilee and New Earth Tribe, (used to be fantastic ministries) in Sydney and Byron Bay, are buying into Crowder and his mob, alongside Joyner, Bentley and Patricia King. Dayspring have had Bill Johnson speak quite a few times. I’ve seen him speak and found him really average. I got nothing from him except laughs from the jokes he made.

    They’ve moved in.

  25. Todd Bentley says on Facebook: We invite you to join us February 17-20 at MorningStar Ministries for the Holy Spirit Conference. There is an amazing line up of speakers; Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner, Ryan Wyatt, Robin McMillan, Jason Hooper with Josh Baldwin leading worship.

    You do not want to miss this time of fellowship as we engage the presence of the Holy Spirit.
    For more information go to
    or call 1-800-542-0278

    Information of the event here:

    Who wants to be anointed with snake oil?

  26. Listen boys and girls. It really is this serious.

    I wish it wasn’t happening, I wish it wasn’t true … but the Latter Rain is a form of the oldest heresy in the Book. We’re running out of time.

    FL, you have a terrible burden now. I wish I could share it with you. Don’t take our word for it … do your own research. Check out their doctrine and check it against your own understanding of the New Testament. I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth. If you find that we are correct, you must act … no matter the cost.

    The Lord go with you.


  27. This really got my attention in your article above Teddy:

    But then something began to tug at me on the inside. If this man had begun a relationship with another woman, how was it that the other leaders, my pastors didn’t see it? They were with him all the time. Then something dawned on me after seeing a photo of Todd at a certain event outside of Lakeland. The day thye made the announcement of Todd’s fall, they said that a week previous or something like that, they had found out. But between that time and the time of their announcement, Todd had gone to speak at another engagement. And in the photo of that engagement, I saw one the the pastors. This man, Ken Greter, whom I knew since I was a child, from the church where I gave my life to the Lord, who I thought was a “righteous” man, let this cheating, lying Todd continue to practice his preaching even though they knew his predicament. I was completely baffled. And as time moved on, the leaders just continued to hush things up and sweep them under the carpet.

    Of course, Todd came crashing down. The church began to fall apart. I lost my job, along with others and pretty much entered into financial ruin because of decisions that we made just prior to Todd’s crash. The crazy thing is, the leaders actually let us make these decisions knowing what was happening. I was a staff member, for pete’s sake. Simply stunning.

  28. Okay, I am about to say is going to sound nasty and judgemental.
    So let me say this first. I understand temptation and sin, and weakness, and I believe that God loves repentant sinners such as we all are -ynd that he makes us white as snow. I believe in restoration.

    But, I remember watching Todd Bentley video’s before the divorce statement, and before I had read anything negative about it. And I couldn’t believe that anyonue could think anything positive about this man or his ministry. It bewildered me, that Christians could listen to his weird stories and able I thought it was disgraceful that the “leading apostolic” figures ov could lay hands on him and prophesy oyver him. Are Christians that lacking in not only spiritual discernment but just plain common sense that they could see that this guy was bad news? How insane would you have to be to NOT able to get up and shake your head, babble on with lunatic ravings, and still have Christians gathering and wanting more. Is all you need a loud booming voice, and weird stories about weird angels? It’s totally depressing!

    The weirder you are the more they seem to like you. But Bentley was just weird.
    Charismatics seem tou think that they are in constant communication with the Holy Spirit. Look at it. These people aren’t just touched by the Holy Spirit, but He is upon them to such a degree that their heads shake violently and they can’t stop yelling and laughing. The presence of God is so strong, and Bentley is having detailed conversations with angels? and God? and the Spirit?

    Can we grow up? Or at least not be complete idiots?

    But, if the worst thing you can say in the Pentecostal world is “you know, I don’t think that was necessarily the work of the Holy Spirit”, then watch out. It will get worse.

    I could have told you that Bentley was going to fall. I could have told you that he would be restored and be back again. And I will tell you that he will probably come back with bigger stories, and weirder actions, and that he will no doubt have moral problems again. Am I a prophet? No.

    But we live in a world where people believe anything. A man can claim that diamonds appear miraculously and people believe him. Then it can be found that he planted them, and he says sorry. But the next month when diamonds appear, he will say that this time it was real, and…..some dingbats will believe him. And if someone like me says, maybe they weren’t diamonds from heaven, I will be treated as a bad person.

    I think a four yr old has more discernment than lots of Charismatics and even the current crop of “apostles”.

    But a man gets up and speaks with confidence and a big voice, and people are too scared to challenge him. Even if they DO find out about his sin – months after the fact. Dumb, dumb, dumb!

  29. And for what it’s worth, I am not in ydanger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, because I don’t think and I am not saying that Satan is behind the goings on with Bentley.There is just nothing going on! The emperor has no clothes. The Wizard .has no power. Bentley just talks big and people are playing “silly buggers”.

    Why people want to shake their heads violently from side to side etc the way they do is beyond me.

  30. @ churchman – One of the men who gave Todd Bentley an “apostolic anointing” was Bill Johnson.

    And guess who is keynote speaker at C3 Presence 2011. That’s right – Bill Johnson.

    “Commissioning Todd Bentley in the Lakeland Outpouring

    The scenario was that I took the podium and called around me Todd Bentley, Ché Ahn, Bill Johnson and John Arnott. I then called to the platform a number of apostles whom I had chosen to stand behind us: Stephen Strader of Lakeland, Florida; Karl Strader of Lakeland, Florida; Jeff Beacham of Sydney, Australia; Rick Joyner of Fort Mill, South Carolina; Doris Wagner of Colorado Springs, Colorado; Sharon Stone of Burton, England; Paco Garcia of Chiclana, Spain; Clarice Fluitt of Monroe, Louisiana; Richard Maiden of Scottsdale, Arizona; Michael Maiden of Phoenix, Arizona; Joshua Fowler of Orlando, Florida; Barry Boucher of Ottawa, Canada; and Wesley Campbell of Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada. Unfortunately, Bishop Bill Hamon had to cancel because of a travel problem. I then read the paper I am attaching and, despite several requests, I even desisted from telling a joke! When I finished, I handed the microphone to Ché Ahn, and he was in charge.

    Ché Ahn, Bill Johnson and John Arnott laid on hands and anointed Todd Bentley with a special new “Be Revived” oil that Chuck Pierce (who was in Africa) sent for the event. Todd went down under the power of the Spirit and the three prophesied over him, commissioning him as the evangelist to lead the Lakeland Outpouring. Then most of the backup apostles prayed and prophesied as well. The power of the Holy Spirit was so heavy on that event that you could almost have cut it with a knife!

    It was quite evident to those present that this was a groundbreaking event. A serious public problem had been growing in the Body of Christ revolving around concerns about Lakeland from respected leaders. Even “schism” had been mentioned frequently. Because of the extensive media coverage through GOD TV, it was much more than a private or a trivial matter. Something was called for to set things in order, and this is the stated role of apostles.

    We are now in a place in what I see as the Second Apostolic Age that apostles can agree publicly to bring alignment. The seventeen apostles involved in this event represented three distinct apostolic streams: ICA (10 were ICA members), Revival Alliance, and Morningstar. Even though we are not networked formally, we believe in and support each other and we stand together when a crisis such as this one comes along. I may be wrong, but I cannot recall an event of this nature in the recent history of the Church.”

  31. Yeah. I was aware of that. I hit my head against the wall when I found that out. Literally.

  32. i was hoping to leave that for an article later if conversation was going to dry up as it sometimes does here.

  33. And these Apostles think that they are what God has restored.
    With Apostles like that, who need enemies.

    This is another example of why I have a problem with “covering” the way it is taught. It was said that being under covering meantspiritual protection. Well Tedd had the super dooper giant apostles not only watching his back, but laying hands on him, and prophesying over him. And then…?

    The local old lady Lutheran choir would have done a better job of praying for Bentley on that stage. (not meaning to denigrate old Lutherans, but they don’t pretend to be last days apostles who are need to put the church in order)
    In fact, come to think about it, some old Lutheran ladies probably would have told him to change his clothes, stop being a fool, washed his mouth out with soap, and hit him over the head with their hymnbooks and thus done the Kingdom of God a favor!

  34. Oh churchman. You have a problem with ‘covering’.

    I think its a very deceitful, manipulative and superstitious doctrine, with no scriptural support.

    An old article from this blog details what many of us here would agree with:

    It was one of the doctrines that came up pretty soon after tithing was knocked down for me. It uses fear and guilt to pressure people into being a part of a particular style of church. If you attend a church that has no apostolic covering – you are not covered!

    These apostles are not apostles in my view. They are not necessarily all bad men and women – many would sincerely believe all they say including the matter of their own authority. God is still working in their churches. It’s not black and white. However, I suspect that the term ‘apostle’ has been defined to suit their description. I think there could well be apostles today, but most likely not these celebrities.

    Many churches pay apostles for ‘covering’. Many ‘Apostles’ market their services re ‘covering’ to churches who lack in that area. C3 is fine – PP is their apostle. Covering is just an old doctrine reinvented to suit these modern denominations. Catholicism and various Orthodox churches seem to trace their history back to the early apostles, especially Peter, to validate their authority and create the sense that their members are in the right and best (if not only valid) place.

    A true apostle will go about their job and have no need for celebrity, though it is possible some may end up celebrities. There may be apostles in various places around the world that we have never heard of. Perhaps their work will bear fruit after we are dead.

    The other expression you used, churchman, was ‘The Emperor has no clothes’.

    Precisely. That is the exact expression that echoed through my own mind when the magnitude of it all started dawning upon me. It’s pretty tough realising it all. Took me a while to travel through it.

  35. As for an apostle setting up a business with payment terms for covering… what would Paul have thought???

  36. Before even reading that article, my answer would be yes. Minister and prophets who are authentic in their faith, keen to see the church grow and flourish should be paid. And they should not be afraid to ask for financial help.

    As soon as they start using doctrines to manipulate people to give – withhold.

  37. Thanks Teddy! I think I just fell in love with Leipzig. Genius!

    “After Tetzel had received a substantial amount of money at Leipzig, a nobleman asked him if it were possible to receive a letter of indulgence for a future sin. Tetzel quickly answered in the affirmative, insisting, however, that the payment had to made at once. This the nobleman did, receiving thereupon letter and seal from Tetzel. When Tetzel left Leipzig the nobleman attacked him along the way, gave him a thorough beating, and sent him back empty-handed to Leipzig with the comment that this was the future sin which he had in mind. Duke George at first was quite furious about this incident, but when he heard the whole story he let it go without punishing the nobleman.” [Source: Luthers Schriften, herausg. von Walch. XV, 446.]

  38. RP – “Many churches pay apostles for ‘covering’. Many ‘Apostles’ market their services re ‘covering’ to churches who lack in that area.”

    I am going to be fighting that battle very soon indeed.

  39. Could you give some examples of churches which have to pay their apostles for covering, please? Since there are many, this should be simple. I personally don’t know of any.

    The covering doctrine, as taught by some Pentecostal and charismatic ministries a few years ago, is and was wrong, I agree. I’m not sure I have heard that any apostles had to be paid for this, however. That would be horrendous. It begs the question, how does one enforce this in Australia?

    It should be noted that the Word of God instructs us in regards to oversight, which is Biblical. God does certainly encourage overseers of churches and ministries. Could it be that some ministries equate covering with oversight? Is it merely a confusion of terms for some?

    I have found that in different streams of Christian thought, there is a variety of terminology used for divers ministries. The Body is so rich with graces, gifts, faith and delegated responsibilities, that, over time, different cultural ideas and means of expression will emerge. This in itself isn’t wrong. I have had discussions with people from other denominations which seemed to be arguments, until we discovered we were saying the same thing using different terms from different standpoints.

    I have understood covering, in the past, to refer to spiritual oversight, not power positions, or control agencies. It was not a threatening term to the people I was involved with. Rather, it provided the comfort and security of an overseeing eldership who provided spiritual parentage for new and developing believers.

    Like many things in the Body, the term, I agree, has become synonymous with another kind of excessive authoritative leadership in some circles, so I no longer use it in reference to ordained spiritual leadership, but prefer more Biblical terms, like overseer, elder, pastor, apostle.

  40. “Could you give some examples of churches which have to pay their apostles for covering, please? Since there are many, this should be simple. I personally don’t know of any.”

    Fair question, and I can’t provide a list. The evidence that churches do this exists in the numerous websites that advertise the service of providing apostolic covering in return for dues. Dues (which vary in size, but can include a tithe of ministerial or church income) show an alliance or partnership with the covering organisation which will contain some apostles.

    Here is one site which claims to have members in all these countries – but they do not list the churches:

    United States
    Bahamas / Caribbean Region
    Sri Lanka
    Africa (several nations from the African Continent)

    Others that offer the service include Revival Fire Ministries International, Fresh Fire Ministries (!), The Mantle of Elijah (an ‘apostolic covering ministry’!), and any other number that turn up on a Google search.

    However, the Apostolic covering thing seems to be a feature of New Apostolic Reformation churches in particular. A pastor will join his church to an Apostolic Network, to receive Apostolic covering if he doesn’t have it already, and will typically tithe church funds to the network. In some cases he will tithe to the apostle him/herself. In return, the pastor receives covering, and his church becomes part of God’s ordained system of government allowing God to move the church to higher levels than would have otherwise been possible. Tithing or dues are necessary since that demonstrates the relationship. Your heart is where your treasure is.

  41. Here is C Peter Wagner describing what happens:

    He details what I have just summarised.

    C3 has PP as their apostle, so don’t need to look beyond their boundary for covering.

    Note Peter Wagner’s criticisms of congregational leadership models. This is where a lot of the tension is today.

  42. GMCI make the following claim:

    ‘There are no financial obligations except a relativity small annual membership due. We do not exercise hierarchy control over our members. We are here to serve as a medium where we may all work harmoniously together and fulfill our destiny in God.’

    Being part of a denomination or movement can mean that churches or service organisations which link up with them will agree to a specified levy, but this is usually to cover administrative costs, and, in some cases, to enable leaders of churches to attend at least one directive conference a year, especially the leaders of small churches, or churches in poorer nations.

    This is quite different to having to pay for the services of an apostle.

    On the other site, Wagner categorically states in the interview that his leadership is not to be misconstrued as a covering.

    I would disagree with his understanding of what the new wineskin represents. It is clearly the New Testament, compared to the Old, not a fresh move of God every so often, as he claims. God has done a new thing. The new thing was the New Covenant in Christ. He is not doing a new thing very few years. The New Covenant is all we need. When the Church gets it right we will be firing on all cylinders at last!

  43. I can’t find the old article, but it does seem that Pringle wants to get in to this covering or so. This is my speculation. I was looking for this from his book ‘You the Leader’. From the back cover of ‘You The Leader’:

    “Phil Pringle is an apostolic leader par excellence. He is also one of those few leader who knows how to mentor others and to communicate what he knows. “You The Leader” is crammed full of extraordinary insights that will help you become the dynamic leader that God wants you to be! I highly recommend it.” – C. Peter Wagner Chancellor, Wagner Leadership Institute, USA.

    And we all know that Pringle is getting the false apostle, prophet and teacher Bill Johnson speaking at the Presence conference next year.

  44. Covering is not control. Besides, if it did mean control, no pastor would want to sign up for it. Being part of a denomination isn’t the same issue as covering, either, I would have thought – correct me if I’m wrong. Many denominations don’t seem to believe in ‘covering’, but still receive dues from members for admin costs etc. Fair enough.

    The five-fold movement talks about covering though, and the internet has many examples of covering being promoted as a benefit of joining up. Joining up involves a fee.

    Wagner does not provide covering because he is a ‘horizontal apostle’. Apparently ‘vertical apostles’ provide covering and accountability. See the last few paragraphs of this link:

  45. “Could you give some examples of churches which have to pay their apostles for covering, please? Since there are many, this should be simple. I personally don’t know of any.

    The covering doctrine, as taught by some Pentecostal and charismatic ministries a few years ago, is and was wrong, I agree. I’m not sure I have heard that any apostles had to be paid for this, however. That would be horrendous. It begs the question, how does one enforce this in Australia?” – FL

    Wagner actually points out in the article linked to above, that the five-fold teaching re apostleship was disapproved of as ‘erroneous teaching’ by the Assemblies of God, and mentions both the American and Australian Assemblies of God re this. So FL, that might be why you have not seen much of this in Australia. It is a change and does not reflect the entire Pentecostal movement. It appears to be growing in prominence though.

  46. Yes, well, that’s a strange concept, isn’t it, RP. I can’t see how horizontal and vertical apostles work out in scripture! I’m not huge fan of all Wagner says, as I’ve pointed out before. He comes up with some good analysis, and some not so good.

    Much of what is being arranged here seems to be extreme charismatic understanding to me, and experimental, experiential, rater than scriptural. By this I mean, there is a stream of charismatic teaching which interprets scripture in the strangest terms. Some of it is fine, but there are elements which are frankly embarrassing, and one the reasons we embraced Pentecost, and moved on from charismatic circles.

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