False Prophets UNITE!

Todd Bentley Facebooks:


Todd Bentley
This FREE event will take April 18-21st with Speakers Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones and Jason Hooper.

With high expectancy, Fresh Fire Ministries believes that God is truly going to show up in a new way during this event.

To guarantee your spot, make sure to register a freshfireusa.com!”


Here is some other news on Bentley. I don’t know how involved he is in this yet, but I observed through Facebook, this:

Todd Bentley is now friends with Prophetic Roundtable.

Here is some information on the Prophetic Roundtable:

“Basic Information

Current location: Marysville, CA
Hometown: Chino Hills, Ca, San Francisco, CA

Personal Information

Activities: WE ARE a team of prophetic fathers & mothers, sons & daughters that have come together to encourage, pray & stand with you as we make America a better place for our children & their children.

We serve a GOOD God & He will not forsake us.

Our team is involved in national and the global harvest.

to empower. eqiup and send young and old to the nations to testify that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whomsoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Projects include> The Global Call School Of the Prophets


Capitol Pastors Summit


About me: Senior Administator David Andrade / Faciitator Dean Champion Martinez. Senior Advisers – Randy Demain/ Glorie Larimore/ TimothySnodgrass/ Steve Davis/ Candi MacAlpine/ Richard Gazowasky

Contact Information

Website: http://nav.hispowerportal.com/california…

Education and Work

University: Melodyland School Of Theology ’73

Secondary School: Western Christian High School ’69

Employer: RTV International Ministries

Pages —- See All (40)

*Full Armor of God Ministries
*Visionary Advancement Strategies & the Ricciardelli’s Ministry
*The Jonah Project
*Heidi Baker

Groups —- See All (36)

Member of: Prayer Surge NOW!, “Pray ForThe Peace Of Jerusalem” ( Pray For Israel), PRAY CALIFORNIA, LIFE- Let’s see how many pro-life people are on facebook., Facebook Miracle Revival of Roger Webb, People Praying for California, Prayer Warriors, Gospel of Hope, Learn To Hear His Voice, ALIVE WORD – Ministers Wilbert & Jacqueline Richardson, St.Stephen AME Zion Church AKA The Sanctuary, Killeen Aglow Lighthouse, Prayer Buddies for Facebook Friends, Underground Prophets, The Non-Perishables Ministries & Productions, Inc., Mike Huckabee, Zimbabwe- Generation Won/Iris Ministries, Warrior Bride International, The Orphanage Jesus Christ Love Ministries in India., Freedom Fighters Enternational- International Prayer Covering, Cara MENGAMANKAN ACCOUNT FACEBOOK ANDA..PLUS AGAR Account Anda ANTI BLOKIR, International Congress of Churches & Ministers, Freedom Fighters Enternational Prayer Network, Mark Labuschagne Ministries, The African, African American & People of Color Health Foundation, The Love, Encouragement, Inspirational, & Prison Ministires, The African American Movers & Shakers Corporation, Prophetess Collette- Eternal Freedom Ministries International, Mahal Foundation, GLOBAL COMPEL OUTREACH MINISTRIES”

EDIT 22/05/11: References to the Prophetic Roundtable have been removed. They were speculative but have been refuted. Unless we hear any different, Todd Bentley is not associated with a UK or US organisation called the Prophetic Roundtable.

Edit 11/10/10: Mark Labuschagne is mentioned in the above article. This information was grabbed from the Prophetic Roundtable’s Facebook information page. They were a ‘member’ of  ‘Mark Labuschagne Ministries’, but Mark has stressed that he is not ‘associated with this group’.

114 thoughts on “False Prophets UNITE!

  1. Have you checked out http://www.elijahlist.com/?

    I’ve been trying to get some info on Heidi Baker (Iris Ministries) – anything, anyone? I know she’s linked to the Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner, Bill JOhnson cadre but there are a lot of “healing” claims attached to her ministry. I have a personal issue to deal with in regards to her.

    It’s the ministry links that always bother me. Can I accept that as a bad giveaway? Or is it just their bad judgement?

  2. Did find this on End Times Prophetic Words:

    Shara Pradhan carries a powerful prophetic and healing impartation as she serves as Heidi Baker’s personal assistant in Mozambique. She has a passion to see the revival burning brightly in Mozambique, and overtake universities for Jesus. Carrying a powerful prophetic and healing impartation, Shara has also served Jill Austin and Mike Bickle at IHOP in Kansas City. Shara is often sent by Heidi Baker to stir an unquenchable hunger for Him and the harvest.


    Steve and Marci Fish have been Senior Leaders at Convergence Church in Fort Worth, TX for 18 years. Steve is a dynamic teacher with a unique gift for imparting the Word of God with a prophetic edge, leading to personal application and transformation. His passion is the presence of God, and raising up generations of impassioned and equipped believers to bring His presence to the nations. Marci is a gifted teacher and communicator with a powerful prophetic gift. She has a passion for the nations and has partnered extensively with Heidi Baker and Iris Ministries in Mozambique.


    This is a collection of End Times Prophetic Articles that usualky paste up articles from NAR sources.
    I think it’s a bit sad. I like Heidi Baker and her ministry. She would have it tough and I can’t imagine her ripping people off or even wanting to even naively deceive people in her ministry.

  3. Miriam also reports from her End Times Prophetic blog:

    “New Apostolic Reformation’s Tentacles Entwine Danny Nahlia & Australia

    Thank you to the Australia friend who sent me the following information –

    “I receive emails from Danny Nahlia of Catch the Fire Ministries in Australia. At first I thought he was okay and he has prayed and prophesied over me. I have kept those things to myself as I did not feel right about what he said, as in, not accurate. He also prophesied that John Howard, our last Prime Minister would return to power at the last election, if the church prayed – he lost!! Danny also made world news a few years back when he was involved in a very large court case when Muslims accused him of preaching against them, he did win that case, as he should. He is travelling all around Australia and at the moment has had a long running Healing Revival in Melbourne. Gold dust and oil have appeared at the intercessors meetings according to an email I got from him in which he stated that he wasn’t convinced about those manifestations but as they happened to him, now he believes in it. I am going to copy his latest email re a building fund so you can see what his future plans are for Australia. He is very respected in our parliament and in many churches here so you can see the influence he has to promote the heresies of the NAR. This makes me very afraid for the future of the church in Australia as so many of my friends are involved in this stuff and you can see how the tentacles of the NAR are so widespread.

    Based on the outcome of a season of fervent and lengthy prayer, The Board of Catch The Fire Ministries has decided the time is right to purchase a building to establish a base for CTFM which would incorporate our offices with an auditorium. This will be a place for the body of Christ to meet from all denominations.

    Catch the Fire Ministries Centre – Building Fund Appeal…

    ”Dear Family and Friends in Christ,

    It is with great excitement and resounding joy I bring to your attention the following news!

    It has been my desire to see this come to pass for the last 3-4 years. Some members of our CTFM team have sought the Lord for our ‘home base,’ from our commencement 10 years ago. We have hired/used venues across Melbourne (over the years) to host the Rise Up Australia prayer meetings, seminars & conferences we have held during this time.

    I give all glory to God for making it possible to have our own building from 2009!

    We desire to see the CTFM Centre serve the body of Christ and the community. The following is our short term and long term goals to achieve at the Centre:

    1) 24 x 7 Prayer – An international house of prayer with praise/worship flowing continuously [Endtimes note – an IHOP]

    2) Rise Up Australia 1st Friday monthly prayer meetings for the Nation of Australia

    3) Revival meetings – to facilitate healings, deliverance, miracles & salvations and see lives changed

    4) Options + Care – Pregnancy crisis counseling, with facilities to use the Ultra sound machine effectively.

    5) To continue to facilitate our feeding projects in Sri Lanka for 150 children, plus care for the needs of 100 children in 3 orphanages

    6) To efficiently operate the CTFM offices and also coordinate the Rise Up Australia prayer bases operating in close to 50 plus cities across Australia

    7) To facilitate Kingdom gatherings focused on intercession, the prophetic & apostolic, with speakers such as Cindy Jacobs, Che Ann, Peter Wagner, Heidi & Roland Baker, John & Carol Arnott, Mike Berry and many others who move in the same anointing. We perceive a desperate need for the prophetic and apostolic gifting/teaching to be released further in Australia.

    {endtimes note – but these guys are false prophets and false apostles – made up of the deceived and deceivers. If you want true prophecy then you MUST ‘release’ wisdom, discernment and sound scripture knowledge and obedience and TEST THE SPIRITS.]

    Equipping the Body of Christ for the work of prison, hospital & street ministry (Long term)

    9) Possibility of implementing a “Wagner Training Institute” in Prophetic and Apostolic Ministry (Long term)

    10) Producing programs for Television/ Multimedia, with the possibility of commencing a Christian television station (Long term)

    The cost of the building is AUS $650,000. By the end of February 2009 (at the very latest) we need AUS $250,000 to complete settlement.

    The step of faith is being taken this week for the signing of the agreement to purchase the building. We would greatly appreciate you prayerfully considering contributing financially towards the building project and standing with us to see the total of AUS $250,000 reached by February 2009. We pray that you would make a sacrifice and help make this vision become a reality. ….

    We thank the Lord and you for your faithfulness in seeing us come through the 5 year legal battle for vilification brought about by the Islamic Council. We trust the Lord that, with your help once again, that we will be able to set up the Catch The Fire Ministries Centre as an effective hub to serve the King of kings, the Body of Christ, the Community, the Nation of Australia, and the Nations of the World!

    Please pass on these details throughout your respected congregation, denomination, ministry, movement, and additional spheres of Kingdom influence as the Lord continues to unite the Body of Christ in Revival and Reformation across Australia, the Great South Land of the Holy Spirit, and the Nations of the World!

    Thanking You,

    May God Bless You Mightily,
    Pastor Danny Nalliah
    President – Catch The Fire Ministries Inc”

    Also this is the previous email from CTF
    Week 25 – Holy Spirit Revival in Melbourne (Hallam) Continues with Healing the Nations/Buddhist Leader and 5 Other Buddhists receive Jesus as Saviour

    “Dear Friends and Family in Christ,

    Last weekend the Revival in Melbourne (Hallam) was very exciting as hundreds of spiritually hungry Christians gathered on Thursday and Friday to soak in the anointing of the Holy Spirit and to receive the prophetic Word of the Lord through Mike Berry (from the USA), a Prophetic Leader to the Nations!

    For the last thirty years, Mike has traveled extensively throughout 160 cities and 21 countries ministering to over 1,000,000 people worldwide. He has produced, directed and hosted TV programs for the TBN, TCT, The God Channel, Cornerstone, TCN, Total Living Network, DayStar, LeSea and INSP television networks (over 500 million homes). His daily radio programs have reached 1.5 million annually through his flagship program “Managing Life Effectively.” He also served as the mobilization coordinator for Washington For Jesus 96 & 04 (with over 500,000 youth in attendance) and the Call DC with Lou Engle and Che Ahn (with over 300,000 youth in attendance). Mike is widely known for his prolific prophetic gifting; teaching ministry, books, and ministry cross-denominationally (From Anglican to Pentecostal Churches).

    A significant highlight was the Lord’s focus on Healing the Nations through individual and corporate repentance, prophetic intercessory prayer, and the reconciliation of different cultures, ethnicities, and nationalities, as the Spirit of the Lord continues to rise up a Holy Nation!

    At one point Mike fell at the feet of a young lady from Vietnam, asking forgiveness for what America did to Vietnam. She was so moved by the Spirit of prophetic intercession that she begin weeping, and powerful spiritual healing begin to flow between different nations, such as Pakistan and India, France and England, and many other nations, as people stood in the gap asking for forgiveness of historic sins committed against each other’s home country.

    [endtimes note – this is identification repentence, linked to third wave spiritual warfare and spiritual mapping, linked to dominionism. This is not at all biblical.]

    Leading up to this recent weekend of strategic prophetic and spiritual breakthrough, the weather bureau was broadcasting Australia’s desperate need for rain. Luke (from Canada) who led part of the powerful worship at the Revival, prophetically declared a change in the weather coming. We give all the praise, honor, and glory to the Lord for a powerful release of the prophetic anointing and for sending abundant showers of blessing as the much needed rain continues to fall across Australia! … “ {And so on].

    On 15th November 2008 CTFM ask on their website [see here] ‘Do we really need wolves in sheep’s clothing?’ – yet unfortunately they have not applied the warning across the board or understood what it truly means. It does not mean Islamists seeking ecumenicism, it means ‘Christians’ that have crept in to the church and corrupt it from the inside – false apostles disguised as angels of light. May God Bless Danny Nahlia BUT in Jesus name may his eyes be opened and may he use sound discernment and discrimination and wisdom in putting the true prophetic into the church and the false prophets out of it!”


  4. Just wuickly noting:

    1) 24 x 7 Prayer – An international house of prayer with praise/worship flowing continuously [Endtimes note – an IHOP]

    I’ve reported on Signposts02 about the corrupt 24/7 prayer IHOP events known as Burn 24/7’s.

    Jubilee Church, Day Spring Church, New Earth Tribe (Byron Bay), and a place that I’ve heard people at C3 moan about a baptist church in Dee Why also doing such stuff. Talking to someone else the other day, churches in Nowra are accepting the 24/7 IHOP prayer centers.

    With the Jesus All About Life Article that was addressing 10,000 Warriors, (organised by Peter Madden and Suzette Hattingh), they too had an IHOP Burn 24/7 backing their thing in Blacktown. (What happened to them?)

    I’ve heard them brewing in Melbourne for a while and that Melbourne was in a worse state than Sydney/NSW in relation to being infected by NAR madness.

    The corruption is spreading. Their is common talk among young adults in C3 (God in The City, Silverwater and OFCCC) going to these events.

    2) Rise Up Australia 1st Friday monthly prayer meetings for the Nation of Australia

    3) Revival meetings – to facilitate healings, deliverance, miracles & salvations and see lives changed.

    And this revival paradigm is crippling C3 at the moment and in other churches. It is being used quite divisively. I call it the ‘God Card’. The attitude is ‘we are doing something in ‘Gods timing’ and we are are part of something new’, get on board!’

    The undercurrent that follows is that if you are not on board with the Burn 24/7, what God is doing around Jubilee or up the coast of Australia, you are unfruitful in God, not saved, religiously dead and are part of that false church.

    I am now finding this resistance and division in the church I am going to at the moment and it is REALLY hurting!

    4) Options + Care – Pregnancy crisis counseling, with facilities to use the Ultra sound machine effectively.

    5) To continue to facilitate our feeding projects in Sri Lanka for 150 children, plus care for the needs of 100 children in 3 orphanages

    6) To efficiently operate the CTFM offices and also coordinate the Rise Up Australia prayer bases operating in close to 50 plus cities across Australia

    7) To facilitate Kingdom gatherings focused on intercession, the prophetic & apostolic, with speakers such as Cindy Jacobs, Che Ann, Peter Wagner, Heidi & Roland Baker, John & Carol Arnott, Mike Berry and many others who move in the same anointing. We perceive a desperate need for the prophetic and apostolic gifting/teaching to be released further in Australia.

    {endtimes note – but these guys are false prophets and false apostles – made up of the deceived and deceivers. If you want true prophecy then you MUST ‘release’ wisdom, discernment and sound scripture knowledge and obedience and TEST THE SPIRITS.]

    Equipping the Body of Christ for the work of prison, hospital & street ministry (Long term)

    9) Possibility of implementing a “Wagner Training Institute” in Prophetic and Apostolic Ministry (Long term)

    10) Producing programs for Television/ Multimedia, with the possibility of commencing a Christian television station (Long term)

  5. Well nut-jobs like these will always be with us. There have always been groups which offer something over and above standard salvation, a superior experience.

    First there was the holiness movement, then the baptism in the Holy Spirit (spirit-filled is so much better than non spirit-filled), then various forms of Dominionism, then NAR, then the Jesus-freaks and the druggies etc. etc.

    We cant stamp them out because other ones will spring up in their place. All we can do is point out some of the errors, including the ones which are recurring. And hope that people will eventually grow out of them.

  6. It’s amazing how trying to point out error points the finger of judgement right back at you! It doesn’t seem to matter how kind, how gentle, how reasonable (from the scriptures) you are, their hearts are hard. I was the same way, before the rug or perhaps I should call it my spiritual “security blanket” got pulled out from under me.

  7. Ok. I’ve just been informed that the dodgy baptist church in Dee Why is called New Life Baptist Church.

  8. Things are never completely black and white.

    I have heard some good stuff about Dayspring (in your list of churches above), particularly that the one I hear about has a pastor that treats his congregation as adults, doesn’t pressure people to give, and rather than pressuring them to come on Sundays (and on time too), thanks them for doing so. The congregation is even told not to give to their building fund if they don’t feel they can at that time. As I’ve said before, Bill Johnson’s Bethel Church also has evidence of a very good relational culture there.

    These things are important, and its been good to hear some very positive things, and from people who are quite aware of problems elsewhere.

    So I’m not going to rubbish these places. If we are seeing the love of Christ in their congregations, and in the pastoral attitudes to the congregations, then that love can do good. Doesn’t mean all their doctrine or everything they associate with is going to be good. I don’t think we can damn everyone just by association, though.

  9. But still, life is much better away from the ‘nut-jobs’ as wazza puts it. I am enjoying my freedom not to listen to anyone who even reminds me of one at the moment. They just agitate me. I find peace and growth elsewhere. In abundance. No need to go out searching for someone who has all the answers, when we have Someone alongside us in all we do, when we just walk each day with Him.

  10. I can add no information to the discussion as of yet.

    All I would say is that I would have no trouble, ethically, in chucking Bentley out of my home church premises if he had the temerity to turn up in the attempt to do anything there.

    I am sick to death of all these dudes trying to hijack the Body of Christ.

    “Hey c’mon! God is doing a NEW thing!”

    No He isn’t!!!. He’s doing what he has always done. Draw people to himself … through the blood of Jesus shed for our sins.

    Whenever someone says “God is doing a New Thing(tm)” you know you are in a Galatians moment. God is doing a new thing said Mohammed, Said Marcion, Said Joseph Smith, said Brigham Young, said William Branham, Said Todd Bentley.

    When Jesus came the first time, He said “What was promised would happen, is happening now.”

    And in our day, what Jesus promised would happen, is happening now.

    The reformation happened so that we might have the Bible now, for our day, that we might understand the signs of His return. One of those signs involves a great falling away. The question then becomes … how does this “falling away” happen?

    Well, it looks like people won’t leave their churches. Their churches will start worshiping a different Jesus. Mormons and JW’s show this. The NAR is moving away from the real Jesus as we speak, and many have already left Him behind.

    Just keep your eyes open. Those that refuse to join the NAR will be persecuted by their own friends and relatives.

    Meanwhile, Jesus is still calling people to himself and people are still being saved. So we need to work much harder to reach the lost for the time is growing ever shorter.

    I do not put my hope in revival. I put it in Jesus and His return!


  11. Some of the movements you mention, wazza2, in fact, were instrumental in revising things which had been long discarded. This is not defence of wrong doctrine, but a pointer to what was necessary about some of the things which have been reintroduced into Church life.

    The restoration of the five-fold ministry is reverting to God’s original plan for the Church. It was totally set aside for centuries, and a warped hierarchy introduced, based on both babylonian priesthood, and a corruption of the levitical priesthood, which was done away with when the law of Moses was superseded by grace and faith. The false priesthood was separated form the people it was supposed to serve. But we are all the priesthood. The barrier can only be broken down when God’s true leadership structure is understood.

    Part of God’s move of grace in the NT was the introduction of Apostolic/Prophetic headship under Christ, the Head of the Church. It was buried beneath religion and form until the 20th century, when the Pentecostal reformation began. Men prayed for a restoration, having read the Word, but I believe it has also been a move of God to return us to his concept of Church, rather than the corruption endured for so long.

    Along with this reformation, which is continuing, we saw the reintroduction of God’s baptism with the Holy Spirit, accompanied by speaking in tongues, and, as important, the revival of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, which had been neglected for so long. Healing and Miracles had been replaced by false ministries which denied the power of God, and held to religious form, which bound men and women to the dead works of a dead church.

    Faith has also been revived. Now it is an accepted truth to believe God for the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, for miracles, for healings, for prophecy, tongues and interpretation, for words of wisdom and knowledge, for special faith. These are all recent developments, coming in the last century of a 1700 year gap, since the time of Constantine, when the mandate of the Church was swallowed up by a pagan version of Christianity.

    The process of recovery will go on, I believe, at least until the time when the true identity of God’s One Church is revealed in the earth. Hopefully, denominational tags will gradually fall away, man-worship will drop away, and we’ll have a Christ-centred, God-focused, Spirit-led Church, set and built upon the same principles Jesus gave us before he ascended.

    There have been many mistakes made, and misunderstanding of God’s will ad purposes, but, in the midst of it all, God has helped us see the restoration of many of the missing ingredients of the true Church.

    Sadly, when some of these important aspects of Church life were being restored, the religious church refused to accept the changes and tried to shut them down, as religion always will. Fr tis reason, I believe it will take some time yet, but the day is drawing closer.

    What we need is the wisdom to see what is of God, and the grace to accept that sometimes we mere men and women get it wrong.

  12. s&p wrote:
    Isn’t there a saying ‘you can judge them by the company they keep’?

    Surely, but it will not work in all cases.
    If groups are very exclusive and/or extremist to be in company with them is a much clearer indication compared with groups or ministries that are just foggy, stumbling around or being mislead/misleading in some areas, etc.

  13. FL wrote:
    “The restoration of the five-fold ministry is reverting to God’s original plan for the Church”

    don’t think that will work for apostles, or can you tell me a scripture where prerequisites for apostles are mentioned in a way as they’re mentioned for the other offices. If apostles were expected to be at hand all the time surely such a description would have been needed and would have been given.

  14. FL,

    Is Jesus going to come back physically?

    What do you think about the Manifest Sons of God thing?

    Isn’t it the old lie of Satan that he used in the Garden? “You shall be like God”

    “Jesus will be made manifest in you and you will be the Christ. Part of the New Breed. Perfect.”

    All without the physical return of Jesus to Earth.

    Isn’t this a huge problem? Isn’t this the worst heresy?

  15. I’m sure I’ve done posts on this guy before when he came to Australia at the end of 2008 and beginning of 2009.

    This is Sean Feucht, bringer of IHOPS Burn 24/7.


    Bad scripture. Unprofitable ministry – but an opportunity for the KCP to spread their heretical harm to churches.

    RP – I love Jubilee and Day Spring church. But now that they are embracing these doctrines – I am meeting more people that are hurt there than usual.

  16. While I understand you concern on the doctrinal issues of these heresies Bull, I examine the fruit of those who believe such doctrines.

    They are often really nice and overtly friendly (like most christians are), but will often talk about what God is doing through them, they will exaggerate, like to speak over people and lay hands on them to impart or prophesy.

    I’ve often seen them fake a Holy Spirit manifestation.(A bit like the Toronto thing.) I will sense a subtle hint of division against those quenching the Spirit or resisting God moving. I will sense an elitest attitude that they are part of God’s move whil others are not because they are spiritually dead.

    Bad doctrine generally results in bad fruit – and that is something that can’t be hidden for too long. I can generally guess now by the way someone behaves what doctrines they believe – (and I usually find I’m right).

    I would not necessarily condemn Jubilee or Day Spring if they aren’t aware of it. But now that I’m talking to people who are having bad experiences there due to pride or religiosity, than the leadership are not being accountable to the body.

    I’m 50-50 at the moment. I don’t know what to make out of them, but I do know what they are choosing to swallow at the moment and I don’t approve of that.

  17. Also found out at Facebook:

    Todd Bentley’s Upcoming Events
    Type: Meetings – Informational Meeting
    Start Time: Tuesday, 23 March 2010 at 21:00
    End Time: Wednesday, 24 March 2010 at 12:00
    Location: Morning Star Ministires
    Street: 375 Starlight Dr
    Town/City: Fort Mill, SC

    Todd Bentley’s Itinerary for the upcoming months:

    Partner Webinar: FREE
    Todd will be sharing on the new vision fo Fresh Fire USA while providing ways you can partner with the ministry. Todd Bentley will be emphasizing on prayer for finances and financial breakthrough.
    March 23 9:00 PM

    Greater Glory Gathering: FREE
    April 18: 7pm
    April 19-21: 10am & 7pm

    The School of the Supernatural Realms of Heaven:
    This school is Fresh Fire Ministries most popular; including a manual and in-depth teachings on how to access the different realms of heaven and moving in the supernatural.
    $75 before April $100 after April
    June 9-12″

    And from Bentley’s website:

    The Supernatural School

    This exciting school by Todd Bentley and Fresh Fire Ministries USA combines teaching on prophetic ministry with instruction on how to engage the revelatory realm of heaven. The School of the Supernatural Realms of Heaven will consist of 16 lessons of riveting teaching in which Todd will share and impart everything he has learned and experienced in the area of prophecy and revelation. As Todd shares, you’ll hear about many of his prophetic experiences and your spiritual senses are sure to be heightened and activated. Throughout The School of the Supernatural Realms of Heaven, you will learn how to:

    * Birth and deliver a prophetic word
    * Use proper prophetic manners
    * Release breakthroughs with prophetic decrees
    * Understand the levels of the prophetic mantel
    * Experience the open heavens and angelic realm
    * Understand the seven Spirits of God
    * Stir up wisdom and Revelation
    * Enter Intimacy with God in His secret place

    You will also receive The School of the Supernatural 110-page student manual to help you follow the lessons and study many of the related scriptures. Saints, get ready to fly like an eagle into the supernatural realm! This school will help launch you there.


  18. oh … cool …

    we get to find out what fresh lies pagan Todd Bentley is bringing to the biblically illiterate …

    We know what kind of Financial breakthrough Todd wants. The kind that drops tons of cash into his pocket!

    He makes me so angry. Every lie he utters in the name of Jesus is spitting in His face!

    Everyone involved in Todd’s “ministry” is simply Crucifying Jesus afresh.

    I need to go and do something else for an hour at least … 😦

  19. Bill Johnson’s ministry:

    September 15, 2009 – May 14, 2010

    Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry’s mission is to equip & deploy revivalists who passionately pursue worldwide transformation in their God-given spheres of influence.

    We are training and equipping a generation to bring the love and power of Jesus into the darkest places of planet Earth and establish Holy Spirit fortifications there.

    At BSSM you will find a safe place, with a loving atmosphere to take risks free from the fear of rejection. It is time for the fire of God to burn up the works of His enemy (the devil), and warm the hearts of the lost. This mandate has become our mission. Let the journey begin!


    Dave and Narelle Crabtree:

    The DaySpring School of Supernatural Ministry
    DSSM Overview

    DaySpring School of Supernatural Ministry is different to any traditional college. Rather than an emphasis on theory alone, application and experience will also be highlighted and encouraged. Students will participate in a variety of different learning methods that are practical and experiential, including faith assignments, group interaction and classroom tutorials. The School aims to train you in body, soul and spirit so that you are an effective conduit for the power of the Spirit.

    Expect the Holy Spirit to invade your life from every dimension possible when you sign up for a year at DSSM! The practical emphasis, teamed with the thorough theological training, will enhance your ability to advance God’s powerful Kingdom. By choosing to do the School, you are making the choice to invite God to invade and transform you!

    DSSM also has a strong relationship with Bethel Church, Redding USA and is privileged to have had input from Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton in the continued development of the School program. As part of this, we are blessed have access to the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry curriculum, and are able to put to great use a wide variety of Bethel’s excellent teaching DVDs, faith assignments and personal input from its staff. As a student of DSSM, you will have access to teaching from Bill & Beni Johnson, Kris & Kathy Vallotton, Danny & Sheri Silk, and other amazing Bethel teachers and pastors.


    And while I was expecting to find a supernatural school in Jubilee Church as well, I didn’t. Instead I found this:

    Wealth of the Nations
    Date: Sat, April 03, 2010
    Time: 10:00am


    Wealth of the Nations
    Impartation Event

    Promises for wealth abound in the church, yet few Christians ever see the fulfillment of those promises. This event reveals why not and what you can do to remove the blockages that prevent the rivers of finance from flowing in your life.

    What you will learn:
    How to Facilitate the Transfer of Wealth of the Nations

    This session reveals seven secret strategies for facilitating the flow of currency, supernatural inventions, business plans, favor and financial protection.

    1. Learn the secret of Dynamic Leverage, the launching pad for abundance.
    2. How to avoid the three deadly mistakes that instantly deactivate the supernatural flow of riches.
    3. Obtaining witty inventions through dreams, visions and encounters.
    4. Using spiritual guidance to bypass the hidden minefields.
    5. Bring yourself into synchronization with heaven’s financial directives.
    6. Disclosure of four insidious deceptions that are currently (and secretly) disqualifying you from partaking in your financial destiny.
    7. Three easily learnable steps to creating a million dollar business plan.

    A Blueprint for Inheriting the Nations
    This session reveals a unique blueprint for activating the promise found in Psalms 2:8 “ask of me and I will give you the nations as your inheritance”. History has handed us an astonishing set of circumstances that have never before existed, and perhaps will never be repeated. These circumstances make it possible for those who carry the mantle of finance to tap the grace of God for nations. By the end of this session you will have the keys for fulfilling this enormous promise. The blueprint for activation is unpacked in a way that guarantees you will see this end-time promise of nations begin to be fulfilled within six months. Includes impartation session.

    Preparation: Bring a pen and lunch money. The break will be as late as 1pm.


    And this:

    Event: BURNING LOVE with Heidi Baker
    Date: Mon, March 15, 2010 – Tue, March 16, 2010

    It is with extreme excitement in our hearts that we announce that Jubilee is hosting BURNING LOVE with Heidi Baker in March 2010.

    When: Monday 15 March 7-10pm, Tuesday 16 March 9-1pm.
    Venue: Wesely Conference Centre, 220 Pitt Street, Sydney
    Registration: $55 (concession $35)


    Heidi and her husband Roland are responsible for feeding thousands of orphans in Mozambique daily. They have ignited over 5000 churches in Mozambique and surrounding areas and are impacting the world with the LOVE of God. They walk with humility and in the power of God – seeing miracles and healings wherever they go. Their vision is to see the crippled, the lame and the blind, people who have never before tasted the goodness of God, be drawn the King’s great banquet!

    For more information on the incredible work that they are involved in, go to http://www.irismin.org

  20. I managed to find this ‘testimony’ of a night at New Life Baptist Church:

    Sydney Missions report May 2008 – Accessing Heavenly realms

    Sydney – Accessing Heavenly realms

    We had a good time in Sydney. I was preaching to a small group on Friday night but the real assignment was for the Sunday night service. I was with New Life Baptist in manly. The Church are very hungry.

    So Friday night we spent time sitting in a circle and I was teaching from Colossians, Hebrews and from history; showing how the timeframe is speeding up and talking about not being able to receive the fullness of Christ because of human tradition and systems of the world. Afterwards, we went spontaneously into a ministry time. It was amazing I simply stood up and BAM the Lord started moving on people. Highlights had an older Mexican looking man saying with watery eyes “humbery humbery” (or something of the sort). We kept listening to him to and eventually he put his hands near his mouth and with desperation on his face and with broken English he said “hungry, hungry.” Tears streaming down his face; he was very hungry for the Lord.
    Sunday Meeting

    On Sunday I preached on heaven being open and the Father wanting us to come in. I taught for over an hour, but people seemed to be there in the Spirit for it. When we started going into the ministry time, the congregation stood and received for about 30 min. I worked with them teaching them how to receive. The ministry time just kept building though. I prayed for a few people. Then it broke out!

    I saw many of the signs of the Kingdom in the one meeting. A Mormon walked in off the street and got saved during the ministry time. A Buddhist started receiving and eventually came up for prayer. He got hit so he just stayed in the anointing. I prayed for him but was unaware he was Buddhist. He loved it and sat under the power for about an hour.

    Probably the highlight for me was two young men (say early 20’s) both of which have been conservative and I dare say scared of the Holy Spirit. They were not coming near me – but of the young men at the Church talked to them – and then signaled for me to come over. I honestly thought one of the two was a Toronto person if you know what I mean. He was shaking violently hysterically laughing on and off between exuberant praise etc. The other guy was kneeling down, and I began prophesying softly that God was doing a Holy thing with him so just stay there. As I was saying that he began to weep – quite amazingly. Later I found out neither of these guys had ever felt God and had been trained to keep away from “all that stuff.” Then when I was talking to them about it later the man who had be weeping (and had the reddest eyes you have ever seen) said, “I felt his love! I felt his love!” He was exclaiming that he had studied the word and done bible college but never knew that he was loved. Probably he did in his mind – but feeling the love of the Father is a different thing.

    When asked about how he was weeping at times and then burst into joy he added “Oh yeh – I was weeping because of the Love, but I was laughing because of righteousness!” Apparently, as people got saved or delivered in the meeting they both started laughing hysterically.

    We had a man baptized in the Spirit. We had healings. I am believing for more reports of significant healings coming through. One woman had a lump. I told her to go and check it and it had halved on the spot. She said she was definite it was much smaller. But as yet the lump is not fully gone. We had some people delivered of sexual and physical addictions.

    After 3 hours of meeting people were leaving the meeting. Then we had signs of glory pour out. And this amazed me. The pastor had a few gold dots on his face and I think many people saw it, but I for one was not going to say anything because the whole gold dust phenomenon can be, for lack of a better word “flaky.” Excuse the pun.

    However, at the same time there is a real sign and wonder take place. Anyone who has any doubts: See this video from Joshua mills: Sapphire Glory and Supernatural Oil in Phoenix, Arizona.

    So Tim (one of their youth) and I are looking at the pastor. And suddenly right before our eyes – his right side of his face starts getting covered in Gold and Emerald green dust. Right before our eyes! We both started going nuts, then the glory fell heavy (this happened after 3 and a half hours of meeting, and again we had glory outpouring). WOW.

    We had power – in that people were going out heavy under the Spirit. We had one Brazilian man (who is very open to the Spirit) get hit by the power of God. He began bolting backwards under the anointing all the way down the aisle and ending up under the power at the other end of the Church.
    That amazed me. I know it happens, but I haven’t seen it as clear as this before my own eyes.

    So, enough from me. How about you hear it from the youth Pastor at the Church, who is very experienced in the glory himself:

    Dude, i am still blown away at the move of God and how marvelous and powerful sunday nite was. The glory of the Lord displayed its beauty with such power that the guys at church will never forget… I told you that will be a day of history and it will spread all around..We have never seen our pastors son Luke just shaking under the power of God and speaking in tongues.. Greg didnt even know that and then Daniel his son just went on the floor, thats another shocking thing for Greg to hear. He said wot Luke spoke in tongues? hehe and Daniel went on the floor? I am like yea.. he goes he wish he has seen it himself. I mean Jesus is cool and my Brazilian friend was just crying at the back. She told me she doesn’t even know wot happen to her. She just couldn’t stop crying so much. She doesn’t even come to our church cause she goes to hillsongs. One of the guys came crying to me saying Epeli, I have been saved since 5 and men i went bible study and Sunday school all my life and why didn’t this happen back then… He was just crying saying this is unbelievable.. cause before that he went to pray for his friend and he said i am not ready for this and then his friend who is a new Christian and also first time shaken in the glory turned around and prayed for him and bam the guy just felt on the floor and wept the whole time hehe.. God is good.. We will updated you with more later on… Thank you so much for coming and you are welcome to church anytime bro… I hope to see you soon again. Maybe in Melbourne… love ya and regards to all… Epeli.

    Check out the Florida revival – its going nuts.
    Hey, also the Florida revival started about 6 weeks ago and they are having up to 15000 I think at the meetings. It started from 600 people. The healings are ridiculously dramatic. Just go to google and type Florida Healing Revival. It has now spread to Kansas City and Albany Oregon. We (a whole bunch of youth from Vic and South Aus) have just sent a young man there to receive and bring back. Nonetheless, the majority of impartation is happening across the web. Go here to receive across the net: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/great-florida-healing-revival

    Source from: http://www.alight.net.au/blog/sydney-missions-report-may-2008-accessing-heavenly-realms

  21. And there is a Burn at New Life Baptist Church –


    5. Our next Burn 24/7 this Friday Feb 5th @7pm ’til Sat 6th 7pm@28 Fisher Road Dee Why,24 hours of worship,encounters, breakthroughs & Miracles 7:03 AM Feb 2nd via web

    and then says later:

    Our next BURN 24@Dee Why starts today at 12pm ’til Tuesday 12 pm @New Life Baptist Church 28 Fisher Road, Dee Why.Can’t wait to see u there! 1:29 PM Jan 3rd via web


    And this looks like Sean Feucht’s blog entry with his time planting a Burn in Day Spring Church:

    a nation full of destiny…a people with an inheritance..

    Sydney, Australia l Recap of Feb 21-24

    From start to finish this is what God did everywhere we went. This was especially apparent during out last days in Sydney at Dayspring Church. It was an intense four days full of youth meetings, worship team meetings, conference sessions, weekend services, and BURN sessions. My fingers are raw from wailing on my guitar so hard…my voice was gone…but my spirit is so full of a new LOVE. This church is slammed with some of the most creative, unique, gifted people I’ve ever met. They are tender towards the things of God…and He has placed them in the middle of Sydney to be “watchmen” on the walls on behalf of a nation. Thats a heavy calling for sure…you could feel the weight of it in the meetings.

    God took us to deep chambers of love, worship, intercession, warfare and joy like never before. Its almost like the more tired, worn out, and exhausted I got…the thicker the anointing was!! There was a point on saturday night when I launched out with BURN 101 mandate stuff mingled with testimonies from all over the world this year (Amsterdam, Africa, Indo, the States)…and people were so consumed with the Davidic calling in this hour that they crumbled to the ground and began to weep…now this hasn’t been an abnormal thing this year in places where the mandate has been shared. People are letting go of their dreams for their lives and ministry and God is filling us with HIS dream for a generation. Its a massive shift that can only come through deep travail of the Spirit. But that night was different for me…we began to pray over the nation and I was completely riveted inside and out. I began to weep and weep and weep in the meeting as God showed me an a little peek of the love and affection He has for the nation and those running from Him. There was no way for me to “conjure” up that kind of emotion…it was 100% God bombing me with His heart. Every time I go to a new city, nation, people group…I’ve been asking the Lord for a download or His heart for that place. Well…on saturday night…He really answered and it came strong all over me. There was no stopping it…and I didnt want it stopped…even though it was in front of massive people…we were all getting slammed at once.

    Then came Sunday night…our first official 2 hour set of BURN SYDNEY. It was just a taste of what is to come I believe this year from burning that will be ignited in that city. It was completely unlike a normal sunday night church service and I’m sure it alarmed many…but it was rich, pure, real, and GOD. We had the stage packed full of musicians, intercessors, and psalmists. We were burning…His songs and sounds were being released….we waiting, danced, soaked, prayed, laughed, and got blazed together with His LOVE. It was full of freshness. We even brought the didgeridoo (Australia indigenous instrument) up and wailed the sound of Heaven out of it! It was unreal! The singers and musicians were launched off into something they’ve never experienced before….God released a transfer from song leading other peoples songs to singing HIS SONG. As I say all the time…that sort of thing can only be “caught” and not taught. I am believing that church and those beautiful people will never be the same after that night of BURNING. I know that I will never be the same…I learned to LOVE deeper and truer…to wait longer…and to fly higher in worship.

    That is just a small bit on the last weekend as i’m still in process mode. But it was beautiful and I have made some of the best friends of my life in that short time together. Its so great that BURNING together can unite hearts faster, closer, and truer than any amount of time and history. In these last days God is bringing us all into one accord with each other and all our petty differences by calling us to BURN together. Let His presence be our ONE THING and our common ground. Forget hobbies, personalities, quirks, and moods….lets just rally around the PRESENCE again…thats all we need to bring us together!

    I LOVE IT!! My heart aches for Australia the beautiful people I became best friends with…I’ll be back soon…and this time with my gorgeous bride. They will BURN there until Jesus returns and its already begun. I’m going to go there as much as they’ll have me because I believe God is going to use that nation and those people as a “hub” to bring a revolution of LOVE to the world! I’ve had dreams of this massive flame rising in the “great southland of the Holy Spirit” that is so hot and bright it attracts the attention of the world! People are drawn there to catch the fire and take it to the darkest nations on earth.

    I will repeat the song in my heart I’ve been singing since I got home…its my prayer and cry..


    all for His gaze..

    Sean Feucht

    This entry was posted on Tuesday, February 26th, 2008 at 11:46 am and is filed under Sean’s Blog. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.


  22. I can’t stand this stuff anymore.

    I don’t even want to read it. It is too painful. I will not accept anything if the theology is even remotely dodgy. God can take me away now … I’ve had a gutsful of all that garbage.

    I can’t wait to be martyred by the NAR … at least then I wouldn’t have to listen to all their blasphemous crap anymore.

  23. It’s too hard to discuss anything here, Bull & gandalf, much as I’d like to.

    I think there’s a danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater if we’re not careful. Focussing too heavily on what is wrong about Apostolic/Prophetic oversight detracts from what is right.

    The key to this is Paul’s revelation of the basis of the Church, being ‘built on the foundations of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ being the Chief Cornerstone, in whom the whole building fitly framed together grows into a holy Temple in the Lord’.

    The Roman church, and succeeding movements, such as the Anglicans, and some of the spin off churches of Rome, believe, still, that this succession is passed down by the laying on of hands of the Bishops, including various popes, and a string of extremely corrupt politically minded leaders, including the Medicis, who produced four popes, and whose family started a banking dynasty, and others, who polluted the purposes of God for their own ends. This, then, cannot be the Apostolic succession, even if it exists in God’s mind.

    An apostle is a sent out one, a person who is sent, by his peers to plant and confirm churches, and oversee them, appointing elders and pastors to take care of the growing flocks. A prophet declares God’s purposes for churches, nations and communities, and brings direction of the Holy Spirit. This can never be removed from the original intents of God, s written in the Word of God. The Spirit will never contradict Christ, and Christ will never contradict the Father, and the Father will never contradict the Spirit, who will never contradict the Son. Therefore the servants of Christ will never contradict the Godhead, and what God has revealed through Christ and the Apostles and Prophets. The foundations are revealed through the ministry of Christ and his personally appointed Apostles.

    For this reason a so-called apostolic succession is not necessary. What is required is the call and grace of God, confirmed, through the Spirit, by those in leadership. IN this way, God, through the Spirit, and by the presbytery, may, and will appoint Apostles and Prophets for a specific task, sending them out to a region to bring about a break-through of the gospel.

    This is no less needed today than it was in the days of the Book of Acts. There are many regions on earth which have yet to be evangelised. There are regions which were once evangelised, but, over generations, the people have fallen away, so that they need to be re-evangelised. Some parts of Europe and Asia Minor, which were once evangelised, have some of the greatest need of evangelisation today, and many places would claim to have a form of Romanised church, which is empty of truth and filled with superstition, just as in the days of Whitfield and Wesley in old England, before they set out to evangelise the nation. Wesley was terribly persecuted by the Roman, and C of E, religionists of his day for preaching the gospel.

    As long as God withholds his wrath, and his long-suffering remains towards this world, we have an opportunity to evangelise, and the Apostolic ministry and Prophetic ministry, and the Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher, appointed by Christ, will still be needed, and empowered, and enabled to bring the power of the gospel, alongside (not above, or inferior to) the saints, and as a vanguard to the saints, into all the world, unto whatever the uttermost may be today.

  24. I might back off then from this material then Bull. I think Facelift would be grateful that I am actually sourcing the problem we’re facing in Sydney.

    just one more thing. While C3 may not want to be associated with Fire It Up International and New Life Baptist Church, check who is promoting Phil Pringle’s book:

    Phil Pringle is an apostolic leader par excellence. He is also one of those few leaders who knows how to mentor others and to communicate what he knows. You The Leader is crammed full of extraordinary insights that will help you become the dynamic leader God wants you to be! I highly recommend it.
    – C. Peter Wagner, Wagner Leadership Institute, Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

  25. s&p,
    ‘I might back off then from this material then Bull. I think Facelift would be grateful that I am actually sourcing the problem we’re facing in Sydney’

    I don’t think we have time to waste on sourcing problems, frankly. Better to minister God’s truth and get on with the job at hand.

    I find that, if you focus on the negative too much you are consumed with it, and can actually become a part of the problem. There is an impartation were there is a spirit, the impartation coming form words as much as from point of contact, and some spirits are to be avoided. I would rather receive from the Holy Spirit, or, if led by the Spirit, by the ministry of a trusted, godly, anointed minister.

    We need to be aware of things and warn people, but the best antidote to the false is the real. If babes are brought up in the right diet they are more likely to become healthy adults. I don’t need to administer poison the make a person aware of the potential danger.

    I find also that fear is brought on by focusing on negative outcomes. Worry is another word for having a kind of negative faith in disaster. Jesus told us to fear not. Paul said be anxious for nothing. True faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Rhema of God. That is far better than receiving a negative report. And out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. If I pour garbage into my head and heart it will come pout of my mouth. It will become a part of my make up. Better to pour in truth and that which is good for the edification of the hearer. I am not called to publish a bad report, but good news. It is the good news whihc is the power of God unto salvation for the one who believes.

    So what if we’re persecuted for preaching the gospel, or declaring truth. I think God moves to greater degree in our lives when we’re focused on his purposes, and not on the study and constant inhalation of the false and of deception. Paul didn’t say study deception, or listen to deceivers. He said be aware of their existence, and avoid them. He answered their folly, but his apologetic was based on the Word of God, on revealing the truth, not on revealing the teaching of false prophets. He broke down the lie by building up the truth.

    I don’t have to spend much time on some of these ministries. I would rather spend it on being diligent to understand the Word of truth, to be a workman worthy of his vocation. It doesn’t take long to see through a folly when the truth is well established. We don’t have to agonise over the false, or take the burden of it. We preach the truth and people will know the truth, and through the truth they will be set free.

    One thing is guaranteed by the Word. There will be false prophets and false teachers, deceivers and liars right up until the coming of Christ for his Church. Our task is to know and preach the good news. Spending too much time reading fallacy is both time consuming and poisonous to our soul. For this reason, I admit I haven’t read more than a few words of these promos.

  26. The problem is Facelift, I want to trust my Christian brothers. I had a Christian who I am working with try to undermine me for his ministry’s sake. I automatically assumed he was a ‘latter-rainer/NAR’ follower. Found out they loved Bentley, Joyner, Dayspring and all the whackies. I was sad that I was right. This person was subtle. Generally I find that they reek with pride and religion.

    What’s worse is that they point a condemning finger at you and me and accuse us of being religiously dead for being outside a move of God.

    Those who want to elevate themselves above me, undermine me, I can often guess they are in love with these false apostles – and I often find that I am right. I can’t trust my brothers in sisters in Christ because of these elite doctrines and paradigms floating out from the NAR.

    The only divisive thing I can do is call these teachers or revivalist of these movements liars. If anyone gets offended, at least it exposes those who are:

    1) vulnerable to the movement
    2) carrying elitest mentallity
    3) questioning the movement

    I really liked Greg’s video. It was brilliant. It is something that would benefit local ministers I know at the moment who are allowing NAR into their beautiful congregations.

    I suppose I’m a bit vocal on Signposts at the moment because I’m feeling a bit unheard. My back is against the wall pushing an actual NAR agenda out of a local church. It’s beginning to wear me down after two years I’ve been trying to stand against these mindset and doctrines in the NICEST WAY POSSIBLE. Love is not working in winning at this. Already I’m dealing with people hurt and divided over their doctrines and words.

    But it’s ME who’s being accused of a few false things while NAR individuals are undermining me with their NAR doctrines and paradigms. I don’t want to play spiritual games, but they are playing every one of their God cards for their gain. It’s politics with a bad spiritual stench. So forgive me for being so passionate at the moment. To warn a church for two years about dangerous doctrines and to foresee the consequences it would have if they came in. I’m seeing the consequences. The church is hurting. I know God is in this somewhere… and now I’m getting depressed.

    – – – – – – –

    When you are ready to answer questions Bull, what is the UK Prophetic Roundtable about, who are they and what do they do?

  27. This is the list I’ve gathered personally so far:

    According to Sharon Stone, delegates who attended the November UK Prophetic Council [ie those who were behind and/or endorsed this heretical garbage] were:

    Helen Anderson
    Julie Anderson
    Rhona Bailey
    Simon Braker
    Stefan Driess [the manifesting star on some of the Lakeland videos]
    Suzanne Ferrett
    Maria Fox
    Steve Hepden
    Barbara Jenkinson
    Karen Lowe
    Machelle Joseph
    Nonnie McVeigh
    David Powell
    Sarah Rowlinson
    Sue Sinclair
    eborah Smith
    Emma Stark
    Sharon Stone
    Jenny Watson
    Michael Marcel – Administrator
    Jane Overnell, Peter Rowlinson – Guests

  28. Thanks Facelift. I will try to find more productive and fruitful articles at the moment.

    I don’t think I’ve asked anyone on Signposts02 this request before. But can you guys please keep me in your prayers. I’ve been getting hit pretty hard by all kinds of authority – dare I even suggest demonic.

    I had some random lady pray onto me a hindu blessing. It was purely demonic – working i could see/feel a shadow storm above my head consisting of thousands of hands jabbing me and keeping me unsettled. God told me to ring someone and they’d answer straight away. They did. They started praying and God revealed to both of us what was said over me in that prayer: “May you be blessed by the peace of the gods.” (So I received torment!)

    It was prayed off. But other things have come up against me in the last few weeks. Depression, feelings of complete and utter sorrow and states of being overwhelmed by something.

    I’m in the good books with a lot of people and leadership, but I have been undermined by a lot of leaders and people close to me at the moment. It’s been a real attack. it all feels really dark and exhausting.


  29. FL, I can’t see no Baby in the dirty water.


    I’m like Elijah after his confrontation with the 600 prophets of Baal. He won that confrontation but then had a nervous breakdown. He ran away from Jezebel and hid. He complained to God that he was the only faithful follower of Yahweh. And God’s answer was
    “I have reserved for myself 7000 who have not bowed the knee to Ba’al.”

    I am very depressed. I don’t feel like an overcomer right now. 😦

  30. UK Prophetic Roundtable

    never heard of them until now … bunch of chancers if you ask me.


    Dominionism is supposed to be about the church taking over the world.

    It is actually about the latter rain heresy taking over the church.

    There is nothing good to come from this. They will create the apostate church out of your church.


  31. Listen Bull & s&p, if you are doing the work of God in resisting some spiritual opposition to the gospel, you do no get depressed, or feel oppressed, or defeated. Sometimes we are pressed, even pressed on all sides, but that is when God’s strength increases in our lives. ‘Being reviled we bless, being persecuted we endure’.

    I suggest you disengage from your supposed battle and get into the Word of God, pray in the Spirit, and shake off the self-inflicted pollutants before you lose it altogether. get around some good Christians who are solid in the Word, and refresh you spirit.

    Bull, the baby, for us, is the Apostolic/Prophetic foundation of the Church, based on the Chief Cornerstone. The water is the corruption of the middle and dark ages apostasy, followed, in latter times, by a failed understanding of the structure of the Church. You’re looking in all the wrong places for the problem, and getting depressed in the process.

    If you’re Elijah, why are there still, in your mind, prophets of Baal?

    Elijah ran because of Jezebel’s threats. Who is threatening you?

    if you can’t see past that Hindu witch’s gobble-de-gook, and deal with it on the spot, you need to take a Holy Ghost break from what you are doing. What can religious superstition do against the Holy Spirit within?

    Jesus gave us authority over serpents and scorpions, and all the power of the devil. We do not cower in the face of curses, because the curse causeless is without affect. We do not back down from demonic confrontation, because no weapon formed against us will prosper. We put on the full armour of God. We resist the devil until he flees, but first we submit to God. We stand in God’s armour, and having done all we stand, until we have completely withstood the wiles of the devil.

    If you go into places where there is dark superstition and demonic influence, you need to be very confident in God and the Word. Otherwise, go away and seek God, read the Word, pray in the Spirit, and get filled. You need to rely heavily on the Holy Spirit, and be bold to not allow the prevailing dark culture influence your ministry outcomes. It is uncomfortable, but God is not afraid of pip-squeak demons. The worse they can do is send us on to Christ early! Be, rather, afraid of the One who can destroy both the soul and the Spirit.

    Delving into things which produce a negative affect on your soul is self-destructive. I have told you before. You need to reconsider what you are doing. The Word of God doesn’t tell us to seek out controversy, or study deception. He says be aware of it and avoid it. He says to be mindful of those things which produce a good report, and are of good virtue. The danger of so-called ‘discernment ministry’, is tunnel vision.

    If you’ve fought ‘NAR” or two years without results, and are offending the ministry team in your local church, you need to walk away and find a church where you can be blessed, a blessing, affective, fruitful and have a positive contribution.

    In fact, you could be kicking against the pricks.

    I would like someone to accurately define the ‘threat’ of NAR, in a short list. I’ve watched it for some time, and consider of minor interest, and not much a threat to what God is doing ion the earth today. Of greater interest is the deadly continuance of the Roman apostasy, which still reigns in the minds of many Christians ignorant of the Word.

    As far as i can see the NAR concept is the restoration of what was stolen from the Church. It’s methodology may be somewhat bath-water, and tepid, even, but the baby is nevertheless alive and well, and should be brought through to maturity.

  32. S&P….1 John 5:18 “We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.”

    The devil cannot touch, take, possess or inspire the person who is indwelt by the Spirit of God. That’s clear from Jesus’ own words.

    As you advance the cause of Christ, preaching the Word (if you are put in that position) and setting captives free, there will certainly be resistance. But, you don’t need carnal weapons. You need to preach the Word, i.e. the sword of the Spirit, and trust in God’s mighty hand of protection.

    “Paul could teach that we are locked in a struggle with mighty, wicked forces, but he would also say that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal (2 Cor. 10:4). And that’s the point that most churches miss. They have people going through all sorts of fleshly machinations as though they can be “delivered” through carnal actions. But, even Paul’s list of armor – truth, righteousness, faith, the gospel of peace, and salvation – all speak of being rooted and grounded in the word – proper doctrine – not gyrations and showmanship in order to please and entertain the flesh.” Jim McClarty

    And FL, have you been reading PP’s books?

    What’s been stolen from the church? Jesus said “I WILL build my church and the gates of hell WILL NOT prevail against it”.

  33. I can’t read all this – there’s just too much! I’ll comment on the little that I have read.

    Firstly, re Todd Bentley. There is no doubt that his behaviour has exposed his character/heart in the past, in a way that is particularly serious for a public minister. Also, many Christians from a variety of backgrounds find his hasty restoration inappropriate, being just a matter of months.

    I think this shows bad judgement on the part of those who supported it, and in some cases, possibly greed for the fruit of that ministry. I do think people can be restored, but the speed was alarming.

    Anyway, all of this is public knowledge. I don’t think any further purpose is served by going over it again and again. Because this is out there, individual people now have a responsibility to choose for themselves whether to subject themselves to this ministry, or to donate to it. They can assess it all for themselves.

    So I don’t think there is any need to focus on Todd Bentley, and in fact at this stage, I think its probably unhelpful. We can all move on!

    Bull – you should probably ban yourself from reading any further articles on Todd Bentley, for your health. 🙂 Maybe whenever you are tempted to, read a nice encouraging psalm or something instead, or watch a funny tv show or something. Get some distance, so that you feel better. I can say that I am feeling so much better these days now that I have more distance between myself and the things that upset me!


    S&P – I didn’t see anything concerning in the blurb about Dayspring’s school of the supernatural. From what I have heard, they are actually quite good in that area. On the other hand, the Jubilee thing on ‘Dynamic Leverage’ etc… leave me out of that one! I think that kind of church event can be a real worry (which I won’t elaborate on, but am mindful of many possibilities), and can also become a tool for coercing people to give large sums of money to churches ‘in faith’ before actually making the money in the first place.


    Finally, S&P – will pray for you. The Holy Spirit in you is way stronger than anything you may encounter elsewhere, so rest in Him. There is no need to be afraid of anything.

  34. Something to cheer Bull up…………..

    “An old nun who was living in a convent next to a construction site noticed the coarse language of the workers and decided to spend some time with them to correct their ways.

    She decided she would take her lunch, sit with the workers and talk with them. She put her sandwich in a brown bag and walked over to the spot where the men were eating. Walking up to the group and with a big smile she said: “And do you men know Jesus Christ?”

    They shook their heads and looked at each other very confused. One of the workers looked up into the steelworks and yelled out, “Anybody up there know Jesus Christ?” One of the steelworkers yelled down ‘why’?

    The worker yelled back, “Cos his wife’s here with his lunch”

  35. Actually, I thought it was pretty funny that Todd Bentley was involved in a course that teaches you how to use ‘proper prophetic manners’.

  36. Thanks for your words of encouragement.

    I would like to point out that all the heroes of faith had their bad/depressed days.

    Paul had his angry days … read Galatians.

    Regarding the prophetic/apostolic thing, FL, my only dispute with you on this is the idea that the Apostles were solely responsible for appointing Elders and Deacons.

    They established churches and then left those churches as autonomous entities. The apostle was off setting up another church in another part of Asia Minor or wherever and those places would then have to appoint other elders and deacons on their own.

    What went wrong at Ephesus was that Timothy was sent as an apostolic delegate to sort out the leadership there.

    Explicit instructions on what made a good elder or deacon indicates very strongly that the current crop of leaders was very dodgy. There was a crisis in Ephesus that needed Paul’s attention. Ever wonder why Paul sent Timothy that letter? I mean, Timothy was already there … so it is most likely he sent a letter to Paul to tell him what was wrong.

    This is why Paul is so encouraging to him all through those two letters.

    An Elder needs to be this …

    A deacon needs to be that …

    So, since Paul had already set that church up some years before, bad leaders had wormed their way in and when you read what good leaders should be like, you can imagine what the bad leaders were like.

    1 Timothy 3
    Overseers and Deacons
    1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

    8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

    11In the same way, their wives[b] are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

    12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

    Let me point out that:
    2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

    is everything Todd Bentley is not. He was rushed into public ministry when he was a very recent convert. Has a garbage reputation outside the church. Has no concern for his family and not above reproach, not the husband of but one wife, not temperate, not self-controlled, not respectable, not hospitable, not able to teach, 3 given to drunkenness, not gentle but violent, quarrelsome, and a lover of money.

    A man most unsuitable for public ministry.

  37. Well, I agree he is disqualified, by aspects of doctrine, and his abandonment of family, from the ministry he has been restored to. But he is neither an apostle nor a prophet. Whether he s called or not I cannot say, but he is certainly being misguided, in my opinion.

    Sadly some people are pulled this way and that by every wind of doctrine. That is why we need a stable oversight which correctly divides the Word of God and trains and equips the saints for the work of the ministry.

  38. FaceLift: “I suggest you disengage from your supposed battle and get into the Word of God, pray in the Spirit, and shake off the self-inflicted pollutants before you lose it altogether. get around some good Christians who are solid in the Word, and refresh you spirit.”

    God keeps throwing me back into this mess. God wants me in this battle – I know that in my spirit and I know He knows I can take it. I see where he wants to take me – but that doesn’t mean it’s going to be easy. I’ve got four close friends who are strong biblically, practically and spiritually. It would have been twelve – but I’ve outgrown them. It sounds weird to say that, but they kind of been drawn to the NAR side of things.

    They are now intercessors and ‘revivalists’ and angel watchers. 😦

    I would like to know FaceLift what you know about spiritual warfare on possibly a later thread.

    RP: “S&P – I didn’t see anything concerning in the blurb about Dayspring’s school of the supernatural. From what I have heard, they are actually quite good in that area. On the other hand, the Jubilee thing on ‘Dynamic Leverage’ etc… leave me out of that one!”

    I’m just letting people observe the Charismatic trend of monkey see monkey do. Bethel Church is connected Day Spring Church – both schools are specifically ‘Supernatural Schools’. They say they use ALL of Bethel’s resources.

    Personally hearing from Grahame Cooke from there as well, he has also been revealed to be dodgy by a friend’s investigation into some of Grahame’s claims. I saw their dialogue.

    Thanks for your counsel and re-assurance guys. I think I am just experiencing new feelings, physical groaning’s and spiritual experiences at the moment. Depression wise – I think I move too far ahead of myself in my head and actions. It takes a while for my emotions to catch up with me. I think in that catch up I become overwhelmed and confused.

    I think I just need to learn to listen to my body and spirit/conscience a bit more clearly.

  39. Do you have a “spiritual” father Specks? Someone you trust enough to sit down and have prayer together, to run through some of these experiences and weigh them up.

    I know someone, a local minister (not where we go) who gave us great wisdom and heartfelt prayer. A man who sees through the hype, and test things against God’s Word. A man who even prayed for PP. A mature Godly man who had Christ’s peace flowing from him.

  40. “Sadly some people are pulled this way and that by every wind of doctrine. That is why we need a stable oversight which correctly divides the Word of God and trains and equips the saints for the work of the ministry.”

    Which raises the issue of oversight in relation to TB’s ministry. One of the problems that people have is trusting those who have oversight.

    Morningstar Ministries, Rick Joyner’s organisation, supports the restoration of the five fold ministry. Under this, Todd Bentley receives oversight from Rick Joyner himself. Rick Joyner is regarded as a prophet, within the 5 fold restoration movement, and also as an apostle by many. Yet we see him strongly behind this restoration of Bentley, which none of us here, despite our diverse backgrounds, regard as appropriately in line with Paul’s instructions as pointed out by Bull.

    Yet people are supposed to accept Joyner’s authority because he is an apostle/prophet. If you doubt his authority, then you are not accepting God’s designated order and authority in the church.

    So having seen this sort of thing, how can the average Pentecostal continue to trust blindly in those who are endorsed by so very many people as leaders in the five-fold mould?

    The ‘restoration’ of the five-fold ministries in the manner that these organisations style it, seems to be just a way to create a new hierarchy of church government that is above scrutiny from the average church member. If they doubt these leaders, they doubt God Himself, since God is the one endorsing them by sending such visions and signs and wonders.

    But if we judge by the fruit, we are rebellious or doubting the Holy Spirit.

  41. And if you are a pastor in a movement that supports these guys, then you are in an even more difficult position. You either justify their behaviour in some fashion, over time having more and more to justify, and possibly having to alter your theology gradually in order to do so, or, you do not support them (the responsible position), but potentially lose the support of the rest of your network, or even get thrown out of your pastorate if it becomes an extreme issue. Half the congregation respect you for your responsible judgement, the other half talk about how conservative you are and how your church is missing out because you don’t agree with these guys and don’t encourage their practices in your own church.

    Who would want to serve men rather than God? It just means you can never win.

  42. “Do you have a “spiritual” father Specks? Someone you trust enough to sit down and have prayer together, to run through some of these experiences and weigh them up.”

    I did. I just feel I’ve outgrown them. I appreciate their prayers, but they have trouble hearing what I’m saying and are quite disconnected with some of the stuff I do. It’s like I’ve outgrown them in what they can mentor me in. I like the idea that I’m under someone, but I’m just not connecting with anyone on the same wave length.

    I’ve got close friends who have walked with me on my journey. So we often pray together for each-other and churches.

  43. s&p,
    When you feel you’ve outgrown your spiritual fathers, and even your close confidantes, you are either on shaky ground, or need to find someone who knows more than you think you do – FAST!

    If you’re not connected to anyone on the same wavelength – check the wavelength!

    1 Corinthians 10
    12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

  44. I’m looking for others now. At the moment, I’ll just be holding onto God. It feels like I’ve actually grown into something for a season. I can’t really explain it. Thanks Facelift.

  45. AH! Bloody heretics spreading their demons! I just got this:


    This prophetic word is written in partnership between Ryan Wyatt, Todd Bentley and Rick Joyner. It includes prophetic words of the Lord from Todd Bentley, Bob Jones and Ryan Wyatt.

    The Lord has been visiting us in some profound ways recently, as well as bringing to our memory some prophetic experiences and words from the Lord from years ago that we believe are for now. The following includes a compilation of these words that all merge together for this time right now in 2010.

    The history of this prophetic word started back in January of 2007 when Todd Bentley and Bob Jones both separately had angelic encounters about the glory of God and the supernatural release of finances for God’s people. In January 2007, Todd was visited in the early morning hours by an angel that carried the fear of the Lord. The angel spoke to Todd about God judging and shaking everything that can be shaken and releasing a fresh fear of the Lord upon God’s people and the earth. The angel then went on to describe a “greater glory” that was coming. The Lord commissioned Todd to begin hosting “Greater Glory Gatherings” for the purpose of stirring up God’s people to simply seek after the face and presence of God for a release of His glory like we have never seen before. What followed caught everyone by surprise. There came a supernatural release of signs of God’s glory in the form of gemstones and diamonds showing up in the meetings, major financial breakthroughs, debt cancellations, and major favor in the realm of finance that continued for months leading right into what has now been called “The Lakeland Outpouring”, which was marked by notable miracles on a massive scale and aired LIVE on television, with thousands in attendance, night after night for 4 months.

    Very recently, Todd had a dream where all around him all he saw was rubble and the dust was still settling. From the midst of the rubble he pulled an ancient book that spoke of the tabernacle of glory. The same week of this dream, Todd was again visited by an angelic being covered in gemstones. The angel said he was an angel that stewards over finances and that there was a supernatural release of finances from God’s glory that was upon us!

    After these encounters, Todd felt led to get on the phone with Shawn Bolz, Ryan Wyatt, and Bob Jones. They each had prophetic words and experiences about this greater glory and the release of finances both present day and dating back to 2007, just like Todd did.

    On January 24th, 2007, (the same month that Todd was visited and commissioned to host Greater Glory Gatherings) Bob Jones also had a visitation from an angelic being that stewards over the supernatural release of finance. The angel told Bob that he was assigned to funnel finances for the Kingdom and that it was time for people to lay their plans and blueprints before the Lord so they could be supernaturally financed.

    Again, in a recent phone conversation, Shawn Bolz reminded Todd that years ago Todd prophesied over him that he would be visited by an angel of finance, which happened shortly after and led to Shawn’s book on the Keys to Heavens Economy. Just after this word to Shawn from Todd, Bob Jones gave Shawn a word and said that there would be major warfare, resistance, and hindrance to the supernatural release of these finances until the year 2010.

    As Todd and Ryan Wyatt were speaking over the phone, God began to speak to Ryan about the story of Josiah in 2 Kings 22-23 and in 2 Chron. 33-35. Josiah had a heart to restore the house of God. In the process of reconstruction, Josiah’s men found an ancient book. It was the book of the law given by Moses. Josiah read the book and saw how Israel was supposed to be living in order to carry the glory of God, yet realized that his nation had fallen from the ways of God. The fear of the Lord came upon Josiah and he repented before God. Josiah then immediately began to go through the temple and throughout the nation as a reformer and cleanse it from every symbol of baal or demon worship and burned them with fire. Josiah then realigned Israel with the ways of God and re-instituted the gathering of passover. Tens of thousands of animals were slaughtered in dedication to God and the Bible says a passover like that had not been held since the days of Samuel the prophet.

    Ryan began to get revelation about Todd’s dream, where he found a book in the rubble, and that it was indeed time to gather God’s people together again with a spirit of repentance and the fear of the Lord, but also with a spirit of generosity and sacrifice so that our lives and our finances can be re-dedicated to the Lord and so a supernatural release of finances and debt cancellation can take place. Josiah was reading the ancient book of Moses that detailed Moses’ encounter where he was given the blueprint for the tabernacle of God and how Israel should live. God reminded Ryan in that moment that when Moses was on top of the mountain, in the tangible glory cloud of God, the blueprints of the tabernacle of glory were given to Moses but before God would initiate the habitation of glory, He asked Moses to have the people come with a heart of generosity and sow into God’s plans for habitation.

    Ryan was given further revelation about a very recent increased assignment of witchcraft against God’s people in the area of their finances. There have been open visions and detailed words that have come recently to confirm this fresh wave of witchcraft released against God’s people in this area. What we know is that the devil begins to sense the areas that God wants to release major breakthrough and then he begins to attack God’s people in that very area in order to hinder the supernatural release from the glory.

    Again, this word is a compilation of words from Todd Bentley, Ryan Wyatt, and Bob Jones and we sincerely believe that the Lord is calling a gathering. A GREATER GLORY GATHERING where we contend for greater dimensions of the glory of God to be released but where we also get intentional about the breaking of witchcraft assignments against God’s people in the area of finances.

    For this reason, we are coming together April 18-21 for a Greater Glory Gathering hosted at Heritage International Ministries in the greater Charlotte, NC area. It is time to gather together in the fear of the Lord, seek His face and realign ourselves with Him! It is time to come together in unity and lay our debts and areas of need before the Lord and to believe God again for a fresh release of His glory that will shake the nations!

    Join us for THE GREATER GLORY GATHERING, April 18-21, 2010!

  46. Ah S&P. Maybe the outgrowing of your mentors is part of their good work to see you through to maturity. This can be a scary prospect, especially in church settings where it breaks the cycle of maintained imaturity where the pastor needs the congruants and the congruants needs the pastor.

    Growing up can be lonely sometimes!!

  47. We never outgrow our need for spiritual mentors or fathers in the faith – I totally agree with Faithlift on this.

  48. Spiritual warfare, if it exists in the form you suggest, is supposed to be against spiritual darkness, not the Church of the Living God.


    Even if we ‘outgrow’ our spiritual mentors, which is possible, but unlikely, since they should be growing at least at the same rate, being mentored themselves, then the mark of their success with their mentoring will be to pass us on to others senior to themselves, not for us to become islands separate from all need of correction, instruction, rebuke or direction.

    Romans 3
    3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

    What I hear from you, s&p, and I say this with respect to your welfare, as well as the welfare of those you fellowship with, is that you are involved with a church in which you disagree with the general direction of the eldership, where those who once mentored you are now less than at your level of spirituality, and where you feel you have no peer to assist you in your walk, and therefore no one who is able to check your claims with you of the inadequacies of the leaders, where you are obliged to enter into self correction and direction.

    Think soberly, brother!

    Proverbs 26:12

  49. Sometimes as we grow our mentors change because our experiences and journeys in God are not always the same. Accountable relationships are very important and we shouldn’t stand as islands, but I wouldn’t like to think that that my childrens maturity in God will be for ever limited by mine. I hope I see the day when they become fathers in the faith themselves. I hope I live long enough to learn a few things from them also. I hope I see the day when they can take responsibility for their own walk with God without needing me in the same way.

  50. A lot of my current friendships in Christ were previously people who mentored me. But as you learn over the years these relationships can change and there is much more relating on an even footing.

  51. One should outgrow ones mentors eventually. The word mentor comes from the Greek mythological story of Odysseus. When Odysseus went to war, he placed Mentor in charge of his son Telemachus.

    A mentor is not supposed to replace a Father. A mentor acts in a father-like role for a time, but eventually the person grows and makes his/her own way in life.

    The spiritual life (like other aspects of life) is not linear. One dosent reach a certain “level” and then look down at the others below who have not reached that level and help them to take the same steps youve taken. That is not mentorship, that is attempting to be the father (and supplanting the true Father)


    There are times in life where things seem barren, where we dont at first know where to turn. There may be times when most of our trusted friends dont seem to understand where we are going. S&P might be going through something like this. The last thing he needs right now is someone trying to guilt him into either leaving or entering a church organisation.

    These things need to be handled sensitively. We dont, through a blog, know enough to give him counsel. If we did it might be best to reserve counsel until he asks.

  52. S&P – I agree very much with Muppet and wazza on this. As Muppet says, our experiences and journey’s in God are not always the same; in fact there is infinite variety in His church. Certainly it is possible to outgrow one’s mentors. Or to grow in a different direction from the one the mentor is growing in.

    You have some great elders around you, I know. But maybe for a season you can’t relate as much for some reason.

    If you really need a mentor, God will provide. He provides for all our needs.

    Perhaps the season for you is changing. God will show you where to go and where He wants you. If it is a wilderness time, then it might last a while, but don’t give up hope. Only one thing is certain, which is that nothing ever stays the same.

    Perhaps you need to let go of some things or some people. Have a rest. I guess I’m into rests. 🙂 But whatever the situation, don’t feel condemned. He will bring His work in you to completion. You know that this is a promise.

    I agree strongly with wazza that ‘the spiritual life… is not linear’ and we don’t reach a level then look down at others. After all, Jesus calls us friends! Friendships are about respect, but not hierarchy; they don’t look down on one another. Hierarchy can preclude friendships or cause them to be relinquished. (There’s a fresh post in there.) We all need friends in our walk. God can provide here too. I became close friends to someone once who had been praying (specifically 🙂 ) for a friend. Friendships are part of his provision for our needs, and some of them may even be mentors, but as wazza says, they don’t supplant our relationship or dependence upon our true Father. Perhaps sometimes we go through a season without them that draws us onto Father afresh. Though not usually forever.

  53. I understand what you’re saying, but, though we may learn to stand on our own feet, we still need fathers. I may have some areas of expertise my natural father doesn’t, but he knows far more in other areas, and he has more experience of life than I and still commands my respect.

    We never have a time in our life when we do not need fathers in the Lord. I’ve just spent the weekend with one of mine. It has been so valuable and empowering. Some weights have been lifted just through the fellowship.

    I heard s&p mention being depressed, and also ‘thrown’ by God into the ‘mess’ that is his church. To do what? And no one to relate to at his level of understanding. Not a good scenario.

    I’ll say no more unless asked, as requested.

  54. Today’s tweet message from a C3 pastor……

    “You’ll have what you believe for, you rule in this life not the devil, you have full control & authority over your life… Phil Pringle”

    Now, if we take this at face value, who is sovereign?
    The Lord? Where do we recognise our weaknesses and our dependency on God for the very breath we take?

    Having a positive attitude is one thing, and very healthy but who get’s the glory?

  55. FL I think it’s a true blessing to have someone you can call a father in the Lord. But these are not people that can be allocated or applied for. They are people you click with relationally who usually have no vested interest in your ministry as a believer but have the life experience to offer insight.

    I have someone like this in England, but I’ve lived in Australian for the last 20 years. There was one person here for about 10 years before he died. At this present time there is no-one, may be there will be eventually, may be not. It would be good, but not essential. Eventually all the older people die anyway and we are forced to be it.

    As far as going through “mess” – again this is not a place you would like to remain, but seasons of life are often that way. Sometimes we can’t go forward in Him without battling through the mess to get to the points of clarity.

  56. Sorry one other thing FL. You asked about S&P being thrown into the mess – to do what? I think the better question is – to be what? It’s coming through personal turmoil that shapes us into the future. Your concerns are wise and your heart is pastoral and wisdom lies in the council of many.

    But as you’ve said – when asked – so I’ll shut up too!!

  57. I’d like to discus the doctrine of the sovereignty of God with you Teddy, because it is one of the key areas which constantly comes up in criticism of some ministries, and I think is based on different understandings of what people interpret of God’s permissive will and delegated responsibility.

    The Calvinistic view is certainly different to the Arminian view, and this is a major area of dispute. I think it actually pits two sides in opposition in the Body, and needs to be addressed.

  58. I think we don’t have full control over our life. Life is random, the only constant is physics, gravity etc. good posts, this site has so many interesting insights 🙂

  59. Happy to start a new thread on ‘Calvinism vs Arminianism’ later today. It’s too big a topic to derail this thread with – needs its own space. Not sure how much I’ll join in that one though – spent enough time going over all that with a Presbyterian friend in my youth!

  60. “…But these are not people that can be allocated or applied for. They are people you click with relationally …” – Muppet

    I strongly agree. Having been in both kinds of relationships, and on both ends, the most powerful are definitely those in which you have a relational click. The ‘allocated’ relationships can be useful, but they are not as effective as those that God provides irrespective of programs. Those that God provides last beyond groups that split up or move on, as well. Even beyond churches.

  61. “…and on both ends…” – me. I was referring to those programmed relationships where one person is the discipler, the other the disciplee, or one the home group leader, the other the group member. But in a real friendship, those distinctions become irrelevant.

  62. Faithlift – it would be a waste of time.

    The whole of the Bible testifies to the fact that God does what He wants to do, when He wants to do it, with whomever He chooses to do it. If He takes the same lump of clay and makes some vessels for honor and some for wrath, that’s His business. And if we find ourselves on the merciful side of that equation, then our business is to worship and adore Him for the God He is and the justice and love that drew us to Him. What He does with everyone else is up to Him.

  63. Spurgeon said “Sovereignty and responsibility are not enemies, they are actually friends. Because we are depraved, we are not able to believe, we are not able to repent in our own strength. It is not our nature to do that. By nature we are self-justifying and we believe in ourselves, not in God.”

    “God elects people and He then works in their lives. He makes them willing so we actually do repent and we do believe. These two things actually work together in tandem.”

  64. Which basically means that a person who goes through life being a sinner and never repents, dies in his sin and goes into eternal torment separated from the Lord, had no choice in the matter, even if he heard the gospel preached!

    His fate was sealed before he was born! And God pre-purposed it that way!

    Great! That really speaks of a Just God!

    I wonder what the point of preaching the gospel is! I wonder why God advised us to choose life.

    I love Spurgeon, but I can’t agree that we are depraved AFTER we are saved. That is incongruous, and unscriptural. Nor that we are unable to believe, otherwise we could not be made righteous, since righteousness is of faith. Nor that we can repent in our own strength, since repentance is our response to God’s goodness and grace.

  65. it goes deeper than that FL. If one is not sorry for the hurt the pain that their sin caused others or themselves and keeps on sinning in that “way” then they are not going to be appreciated by God. Thats how i was brought up. I stole, something v small, when i was teenager and was caught (i had money, we were well off) My parents were very upset and i was punished, grounded, lectured, i never forgot my lesson (i did it for a dare). What if my parents just laughed it off and i made a life of stealing more and more.

    The gospel is about self-improvement, not self denial

  66. i meant being in “denial” and i stole for a dare, peer pressure, whatever but im glad i was cautioned and made aware.

  67. Teddy, neither Essau nor Jacob were saved. They were sinners. The predated Christ.

    God choosing a person for a certain assignment isn’t the same as predestining a person to go to hell. We are all predestined in Christ, Christ being the person in perspective here. Then we have to come to Christ to be in Christ. We have to receive Christ as our Lord and Saviour.

    For Your perspective to work, there would have to be people who were predestined to be received, and others who were predestined to be rejected.

    We know that God’s Word declares his mercy in hat the Gentiles were all rejected, and had no place in God, yet he, through the rejection of Israel, opened up the way for all Gentiles to be grafted in. No Gentile, therefore, is rejected.

    Then he says that Israel will be made jealous and will be drawn to the Vine because God grafts the Gentiles in. So, at this point, Israel will no longer be rejected.

    We know that God has broken down the partition that was between Jew and Gentile, and made the way for both to come into Christ. Therefore none will be rejected.

    It is sin that separates us form God, not predestination. Christ went to the cross once and for all. FOR ALL. He paid the price of the sin of the whole world, Jew and Gentile. All who receive Christ as Lord and Saviour will be saved.

    God is not a preferrer of persons. He doesn’t save one and reject another. Jesus said that he and the Father would in no way reject anyone who confessed him as Lord.

    Each person has a free will. We are all predestined to be in Christ, but some reject Christ. It is their choice to reject him and miss their predestined life, which consigns them to torment off their own conscience, not off of God’s conscience.

    God is Just. He says that all who call on his name will be saved.

  68. Apparently God really wants to save you but is incapable of saving you if you don’t want Him to. There must be sovereignty within you unmatched by God’s sovereignty! God created a creature He couldn’t save! Can God create a god greater than Himself?

    And Faithlift, your free will is subject to your sin nature. But perhaps you no longer sin?

    Yes, we are saved, but in this life, we still sin daily and we sin much. We only have to get out of bed.
    And because of that ongoing battle, we come to the Lord daily asking for the forgiveness freely given, to his children. Paul understood and wrote well of that about himself.

    Jesus knew what He was doing and that He did not give His back to the whip or His hands to the nails or His body to the wrath of God just in case anyone would accept His offer and complete His work.

  69. ” If you start with the notion that humans have an unencumbered will and that their willpower and decision-making ability leads to their salvation (i.e. they obligate God to save them as the result of their choices and decisions), then you have indeed created a method of salvation that is foreign to Scripture.

    The human will does have a capacity for choice. That’s axiomatic. But, our ability to choose between options is limited by the fact that our nature is sinful and that we can only choose those things that are within our grasp and sinful capabilities.

    For instance, we cannot choose to invade Heaven and call God into account for His actions. Our will is weak in matters of God. In fact, we are only able to choose among a variety of sinful thoughts and actions. But, we are incapable of choosing to do righteous works and faithful acts that are sufficient to advance or secure our standing before God. That’s the Biblical paradigm.

    In order for men and women to move toward God or perform activities that are pleasing in His sight, He must indwell that person, free them from their bondage to sin, enlighten them, regenerate them and draw them to Himself. The good works that they will perform, then, are in reaction to His gracious call and saving work. They are not the cause of salvation. They are the reaction.

    That being said, freewill is not the false gospel. It is simply a false concept. The idea of individual self-will was introduced into Christian theology by an early church father named Tertullian, who lived and wrote 100 years after the last apostle died. He also introduced the language of the Trinity into our Christian lexicon. So, Tertullian has lots of credibility in certain circles. But, the notion and concept of freewill is not found in the pages of Holy Writ, particularly in the New Covenant documents. And, that’s the difference.

    So, if you start with a fallacious premise and then allow that false notion to influence your thinking about God, of course you will arrive at false conclusions. And, that’s where false doctrine comes into play.

    The false gospel is any gospel that denies Christ’s complete and utter salvation of His people. If we add anything, any requirement that people must perform in order to complete the work of salvation, we have created a false gospel.

    “I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different (Gr. “heteros” – altered) gospel, which is not another (Gr. “allos” – not of the same quality, qualitatively different); but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert (Gr. “metastrepho” – to transmute or corrupt) the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed (Gr. “anathema”). As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:6-10)

    In the case of the church at Galatia, the corruption of the gospel was that Gentile converts were compelled to be circumcised in accordance with the Mosaic Law. In some modern churches you must tithe or you’re not considered truly saved. In other churches, baptism is the deciding factor. In some groups, the words that are said during your baptism reckon your eternal state. Some denominations and church groups believe that only adherents to their set of rules, or membership in their body, can guarantee your eternal destiny.

    And in many, many churches the emphasis is put on your willingness to “accept Jesus,” or “make Him your Lord and Savior,” or “say the sinner’s prayer,” and then you are truly saved. These are all actions and activities designed to obligate God to save people in response to their willingness to be saved. God is not seen as the “first cause” in such instances. He is not the instigator, author or finisher of salvation. God is simply seen as providing an opportunity for salvation, provided someone will come along behind Him and put that plan into effect.

    But, the Bible teaches quite the opposite message. Men and women are described as “dead in trespasses and sins,” wholly incapable of taking the slightest step toward God. God, therefore, is presented as saving His people for His own glory. It is His idea, His design and His enterprise. He is saving sinners who cannot get to Him, cannot please Him and cannot obligate Him. He is loving the unlovable, pardoning the unforgivable, and saving the otherwise unredeemable.

    And, it is this very incapability on the part of humans that necessitates God’s grace in action. Since we cannot exercise our will to get to Him, to obligate Him, to plead our case before Him, or to produce any positive results or merit that will redound to our eternal account – indeed because we cannot do any good thing whatsoever and all our best actions are accounted as filthy, bloody rags (Isa. 64:6), it is axiomatic, self-evident, that God must move toward us. We cannot, nor would it ever enter our sin-corrupted minds, to move toward Him.
    God approaches the sinner to begin the salvation relationship. Sinners cannot move toward God any more than Lazarus could move out of the tomb toward Jesus. First Jesus had to bring Lazarus to life. Then, He could tell Him what He wanted him to know.
    Inasmuch as sinner are powerless to obligate God (I mean, what do we have to commend ourselves? Our works? Our filthy rags?), it must be God – of His own will and for His own purposes – who determines the salvation of people.

    But, whenever you start with a false premise, you must arrive at a false conclusion. An individual’s will in never designated in Scripture as the instrument or method of salvation. The instrument is God’s grace and method is God’s power. We are merely the recipients of God’s good pleasure and abundant mercy

    So, while freewill is not the false gospel, in and of itself; it cannot help but lead to one.” Jim McClarty

  70. A Q&A for you Faithlift and you have can a conversation with Jim McClarty yourself, he’s agreat pastor and loves questions….

    Q –
    What would you say to someone who said this: “God’s grace is extended to all men, but not all men respond. That is because those who do not are so hardened by their own sin that they choose not to see. But the Spirit makes a call to everyone to come to God.”

    Jim –
    Let’s take this quote in parts, one piece at a time. Firstly,
    “God’s grace is extended to all men.”
    That is essentially true. It’s what theologians call “common grace.” Lots of lost sinners live very nice lives. They eat well. They have homes and cars. They live under the sun and are refreshed by the rain. Jesus said,
    “For he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” (Mat. 5:45b)

    And, by grace, the Word is available to all men. The airwaves are full of Christian broadcasting, there are churches everywhere, and a Bible in every hotel room. So, the grace of God extends to everyone on earth is some sense. Sinful men, who do not deserve it, live under God’s hand of provision. Fair enough.
    However, God’s particular grace that leads to salvation is another matter.
    “…but not all men respond.”

    Exactly right. Now, to what do we attribute this fact? Is it a failing in some men that causes them not to respond? Is it a failing in God that makes Him incapable of reaching all men? Or, is it a matter of will power? Are some men just so strong that they can resist the grace of God?

    I will answer the last question first. Men are fully able to resist the general, “common” grace. But, common grace is not revelatory. For instance, you can stare at the stars, or at a leaf, or at a newborn child, and be convinced that God exists. Even Paul admitted that (Rom. 1:18-20). However, that general knowledge of God’s existence that we can deduce from nature will never reveal the atoning work of Christ, man’s sinful nature, or God’s plan of redemption. You can stare are a shining lake all day, but it will never reveal such truths. You must look to Scripture for that sort of truth. Now, not everyone will respond to the revelatory truths of Scripture. So, we’re back to square one.

    Why won’t everyone respond to the revelatory truths of Scripture? Are men that stupid, or weak, or freewheeling, or independent? Or, is God that incapable of revealing Himself to His creatures? Or, is everything working out exactly the way God intends it to?

    Scripture – the place of revelatory knowledge – sides with the last answer. God is in control and the people who do not respond to God’s word were never His to begin with. They may live under His sky and eat His food, but that’s only because He is gracious and longsuffering with them. They have no knowledge of His truth, which can only be revealed by God’s saving grace.

    “That is because those who do not are so hardened by their own sin that they choose not to see.”
    Actually, no. It is not because they choose not to see, it is because they have no ability to see. It is not a matter of will; it is a matter of capability. It is not what they do that holds them back – it’s what they are.
    In Christ’s parable of the sower, He said that the seed – which He defined as His word – would go out into the world. Then, he described four kinds of soil. Only one type of soil actually produced any fruit. Three quarters of the soil failed to produce. Notice, it was the same word, the same seed, but the difference was in the type of soil. Bad soil produced no fruit. Good soil produced, some more than others.
    The difference was not in the choices the soil made, but in what kind of soil it was – good or bad.
    Or, how about this –
    “Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Mat. 7:17-20)
    The difference between the two trees was not in the choices they made. Trees have no will power. Trees don’t decide whether or not to produce. Good trees produce good fruit. Bad trees produce evil fruit, so they are destroyed and cast into the fire (an obvious allusion to Hell). The difference was in how the trees are, not what they do. What they do is the outgrowth of what they are.
    Following me?

    More importantly, what this quote is implying is that there are some people who are just so bad, so thick into their sin, that their hearts are permanently hardened against God. The inverse, then, is that the people who do choose God are somehow less sinful and are therefore able to take hold of the offer of grace by their own power and will. You see the subtle ego, here. “They are bad, so God will punish them. We are good, so we will be rewarded.”
    But, the element that’s missing is that none of us is good! We are all depraved! We are all born “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1). We are all so hardened that we would never choose God. Look, if we actually could soften our hearts and choose to draw close to God, that would be a very good thing we’d have done. But —
    “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, notone.” (Rom. 3: 11-12 emphasis added)

    Or, how about –
    “There is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee; for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. but now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.” (Is. 64:7-8)
    If these verses mean anything at all – and there are plenty more like them – then noone ever decided to take advantage of God’s offer. We are altogether worthless sinners in need of a Savior, and none of us by nature would seek after God, or stir himself up to take hold of God. By nature, we would never call on His name.

    So, the idea that the lost are lost and hardened of their own accord, and the saved are accepted because of their own ability, is a false premise. No one is without sin. No one was born unscathed. We are all born guilty, helpless, and incapable.
    “But the Spirit makes a call to everyone to come to God.”

    Well, sort of. But, we need to make a vital distinction here. The general call goes out into the world the same way the seed is spread over all the types of ground. The word is openly preached to everyone. But, the open call to believe that is implicit in the preaching of the gospel is not a “particular” call. It is a general call to all men. But, it is not what we term an “effectual call.” In other words, it does not have the power to convert. That power remains with the Spirit. The Word calls out and beckons to men to repent and be converted, but only the Spirit of God can actually bring repentance and conversion.

    For example, I preach the word each Sunday morning. I preach to the converted and the unconverted. I preach to the saved and the unsaved. I call men to Christ – all men, every man. But, I don’t have the power to actually convert or save anyone. I call out into the world, showing sinners the way to Christ. But, the only authority my call has is the authority of the word I teach. I have no power; I have no intrinsic authority.

    On the other hand, the Spirit of God indwells some of the people I preach to. He calls them to turn from their sins, repent, and call on God for salvation. That’s an effectual, specific, individual call. It works completely independent of me. I have no power over it, nor does anyone else. The Spirit calls the chosen of God.
    “But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter [the Spirit] openeth; and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And, when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him; for they know his voice.” (John 10:2-5)
    That’s a specific call to individual sheep. That’s not the general call. Even Jesus made this distinction –
    “So the last shall be first, and the first last; for many be called, but few chosen.” (Mat. 20:16)
    So, the general call is the word going out into the world. That’s very different from the activity of the Spirit. As I showed at length in my last email, Jesus did not pray for the whole world, nor did He intend that the Holy Spirit would inhabit the whole world. The world did not know the Spirit and could not receive the Spirit.

    That’s a crucial difference. The Spirit of God never calls anyone He does not intend to convert. Otherwise, God is sending His Spirit just in case anyone chooses to accept Him. But, we never find such language in Scripture. Read how specific this language is –
    “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?” (Rom 8:28-31)
    Follow the one group of people through this passage –
    They are “them that love God.”
    They are “called according to his purpose.”
    They are the ones God did “foreknow.” That’s “proginosko” in the Greek. It means, “to have an intimate relationship with, or to love in advance.” Before God called these people, He knew them intimately. That’s why He called them. He loved them, despite their natural state.
    Those He foreknew He “predestinated to be conformed” to the image of His Son. In other words, He determined in advance that the people He knew intimately and loved would be the people who became Christians, members of the body of Christ, so that Jesus would be the firstborn of many brethren. (Nothing left to chance, here.)
    Having predestinated those that He loved in advance, He “called” them. There’s your effectual call. This was not the call of a weakling hoping someone would take Him up on His offer. This is the call of authority, raising us from our dead spiritual state and drawing us to the things of God.
    Those that He called, He “justified.” The people who love God, the ones who were called in accordance with God’s own purpose, those whom He loved in advance and predestined to be conformed to Christ, those are the very people He called and then justified at Calvary. Same people.

    But, here’s the topper. Those that He justified, He “glorified” (past tense!). The people who get to glory will be those very same people who God foreknew, predestined, called and justified. Now, that’s an effectual call! There is no chance that these people will slip out from under God’s purpose, because an all-powerful God purposed it.
    So, what does Paul say? “If God is for us, who can be against us?!”
    Exactly, Paul. Exactly.
    o, we must see the difference between the spread of the gospel, the preached message that calls all men to repent, and the call of the Spirit that is the direct action of God to His specific people for the purpose of saving them.

    By the way, the idea of this “specific,” or “particular,” or “effectual” call is implicit in the name “church.” It is the Greek word “ekklesia,” made up of the prefix “ek” meaning “out of,” and “klasis” or calling. The form “klasia” has to do with the particular people who are called. So, the word “church” actually means, “out called ones.” It is better translated by the word “assembly” – hence, Grace Christian Assembly.

    Q –
    My point is that scripture does say that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But only the elect will. Right?

    Jim –
    Well, let’s be specific. The verse you are referring to is Acts 2:21, and it is in the middle of Peter’s commentary on the predictions of the prophet Joel.
    “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come; And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
    So, this verse is speaking very specifically about “men of Israel” (Acts 2:22) who will convert during the tribulation. It is not a discussion of free will or methods of salvation.
    The other place we find that phrase is in Romans 10:13 –
    “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek; for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
    In that context, Paul’s version of “whosoever” has to do with racial distinctions and the inclusion of Gentiles into the faith of Christ. But, he doesn’t stop there –
    “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed [“pisteou” – have faith, a gift from God]? And, how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard [and have the gift of hearing, as we spoke about before]? And, how shall they hear without a preacher [gift ministries – “apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers”]? And, how shall they preach, except they be sent?” (Rom. 10:14,15a)
    So, Paul agrees with you that absolutely anyone, Jew or Gentile, who calls on the name of the Lord will absolutely be saved. But, that won’t just automatically happen. They must have faith before they will ever call on Him. That’s just the opposite of how most churches teach it. They claim that you call on Christ and then you have faith in Him. But, Paul sees the illogic in such thinking. First, we must believe, have faith, in Christ.
    “But without faith it is impossible to please him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” (Heb. 11:6)

    Faith precedes coming, or calling on the Lord. And, faith is an absolute necessity in order to please God. Faith, however, is a gift from God (Eph. 2:8, 1Cor. 12:9). God stirs up faith in His people, causing them to respond to His effectual call, and them that respond will surely be saved because they are reacting to His call. And, in order to have faith, they have to have heard of Christ (specific, not general, revelation).
    “Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom. 10:17)

    And, in order for them to hear, there must be someone to preach the gospel. And, in order to preach the true gospel, the preacher himself must be sent from God. So, the whole thing starts back at God. He instigates the whole thing.
    Ain’t it funny how that keeps happening?
    So, I said all that to say, “Right.” Only the elect will respond. If everyone is dead in trespasses and sins and are incapable of stirring themselves up to seek after God, then God must make those “bad trees” into “good trees” before they can produce good fruit. God must do a definite work of regeneration in a person before they will call on Him. So, it starts with God, who is calling out His foreknown, predestined people, who will certainly respond to the effectual call.

    Q –
    I don’t know how the determining factor could be me yet that not be a work – but she said that she didn’t feel our acceptance or rejection of Christ was a work. I’m just confused by that.

    Jim –
    Don’t be confused. Of course our acceptance or rejection of Christ is considered a work in Paul’s theology, regardless of how your friend feels. This is not about feelings. This is about sound doctrine. If God saves you as the result of anything you do, then He is responding out of obligation. And, that is not grace. Grace must be totally and utterly unmerited.

    But, if you perform some formula, or make the mental ascent that Jesus would be a good addition to your life, then you are obligating Him. He provided the means, but you provided the motivation. You are joint participants in the work of salvation. Jesus hung on the tree just in case anyone would accept His work, validate His plan of redemption, and put the whole deal into operation. You are the deciding factor. You have something to glory in.
    That’s utterly anti-Scriptural.
    Q –
    But, I’ve heard it a TON in the church, and I would like to know what you say to it.
    Jim –
    And, there’s the problem. Churches teach plenty of errant stuff. It’s hard to unlearn what we believed to be true.
    “Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar…” (Rom.3:4)

    Again, if men are incapable of stirring themselves up to seek after God, only those men whom God stirs up will ever seek Him. Sinners do not seek the God they hate.

    “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” (Rom. 8:7)

    All of these things we’ve discussed today through these three long emails have one thing in common. People end up with confused theology because they begin with a truncated view of man’s depravity and sin. They just keep thinking that we are somehow capable of doing the impossible – turning from ourselves toward God by force of our own will. But, the Bible declares over and over again the impossibility of that happening. If we understood the depth of our problem, it would solve the vast majority of this errant thinking.
    Sinful fleshly men cannot choose against their nature and accept Christ. It is not possible. If we began with that premise, we would not be arguing about whether or not accepting or rejecting Christ was a “work,” because we would know that only a gracious act of God on our behalf could ever make us capable of accepting Him.
    It’s grace, my sister. Grace, grace, grace.

    Q –
    Just that it was God’s will that we be allowed to choose. It’s not in scripture. I don’t know how much more I need to say. But I wonder what you think.

    Jim –
    Well, you’ve gotten a healthy dose of what I think, today. As I said before, we must decide what our final arbiter of truth is going to be. Is it what seems logical and fair to our mortal minds, or is it the Word of God and His revelation of Himself. If we decide that the Bible is the “final word” in all matters of faith and doctrine, then the simple fact that the notion of God’s allowing us to choose our destinies is not found anywhere in Scripture ought to be enough to keep us from promoting such an idea.
    But, as you well know, people believe and preach all sorts of things that are not found anywhere in the Bible. That’s why I pound on Scripture the way I do. Only if we have some working knowledge of what the Word actually says can we develop a consistent theology that is not confused or confusing.
    “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” (1Cor. 14:33)

    Q –
    I HATE that argument, that it’s God’s will for us to be “allowed” to choose.

    Jim –
    Me, too. I hate it because it does damage to the Word, it’s ignorant, it’s illogical, and the people who defend it do so adamantly. Mostly, I hate it because it does damage to the glory of the God who saved me and the Christ who died for me. And, I hate anything that demeans the Lord I love.
    Q –
    I used to believe it was God’s will that we choose, and the only way we could truly be free to love God was if he let us come to Him on our own.
    Jim –
    Yep. Very common, very errant thinking. It serves manmade notions of freedom and fairness. But, it’s utterly unscriptural. The fact is that, given our sinful state, the only real freedom we have is the freedom to sin and rebel. We have no freedom to choose or please God. As Christ said, we cannot do it. We have no ability. We are dead and “desperately wicked.”

    One facet of our sinful freedom, however, is the creation of theologies that suit our sinful self-will in opposition to the clear declarations of Scripture. Only when we are truly set free to turn from ourselves and bask in the revelatory knowledge of Christ will we understand the errors of our former beliefs.
    Q –
    But I don’t remember ever hearing anything to dispel that except ‘if that were true it would be in scripture and it’s not.’
    Jim –
    And, wouldn’t it be nice if that were sufficient? But, pet theories and fleshly theologies die hard. Only grace (hey, we’re back to grace again!) can change a person’s view of himself, God, and the gulf in between. Then, when they recognize the distance between them, they will understand how far He came. Then, they will recognize the “pit from which we are digged.” Then, they will cry out for a Savior, and they won’t breathe the first word about what they’ve contributed. They will say, “It’s all of grace.” They will know, as Jonah did, that “salvation is of the Lord.”

    Our God reigns, my friend. Don’t let the naysayers and pop philosophers get you down. Keep looking up. Keep your eyes fastened on Jesus and not on the foolishness of the world. You’ll be just fine.

    Yours for His sake,
    Jim McClarty – Grace Christian Assembly

  71. Teddy,
    ‘Apparently God really wants to save you but is incapable of saving you if you don’t want Him to. There must be sovereignty within you unmatched by God’s sovereignty! God created a creature He couldn’t save! Can God create a god greater than Himself?’

    You mock God! Is not Satan unsaveable? And he is certainly created by God. All who follow Satan will go with him and his minions to the Lake of Fire, as unsaveable as he, buy their own choice. he is already judged. That is why the Holy Spirit convinces us of sin, righteousness and judgement, because we will be judged with the same judgement if we do not repent and receive Christ. That is God’s sovereign will.

    It is indeed a remarkable thing that God has given us a free will, but you surely don’t think free will equates to superiority to God? He has given us a free will, but with it said that we should choose life, because the alternative is death. Those are the words of sovereignty.

    The issue of the sovereignty of God is where the argument really goes.

    No one is disagreeing with fact of the sovereignty of God, just how it is outworked.

    For instance, in his sovereignty he made certain promises and swore to them by his own name, oaths which are immutable.

    He has to keep his own promises, or he makes himself a liar. It is again remarkable that God would, in his sovereignty, make promises which ultimately hold him to his will, and which are in reference to his creation.

    Therefore it follows that, if he is God and the Faithful and True, he will not violate his own word and will.

    His Word to us in the NT is his will, in the sense of it being the last will and testament, where the will is given to the recipients, those who accept Jesus as Lord. He has sworn by his own Word and ratified in his own blood. It is incontrovertible. This is his sovereign will in action. I ask if you still think that he will violate his own will and covenant with his people by doing things outside of his will?

    Again, he gives us instructions in the Word which are his sovereign will for the reconciliation of mankind. He went through the process of the cross, death and resurrection of his Son, so that the plan for redemption could be fulfilled. Why did he need to do this, if, in his sovereignty, he could change any circumstance, regardless of what he has said?

    Because he must be true to his Word. because his Word is sovereign. “I will exalt my Word even above my name!”

  72. Didn’t you read anything I posted?

    You’re “thundering” down at me aren’t you? 🙂
    Mocking God? No, just accepting His sovereign grace, enjoying the freedom of knowing he has done it all for us, because we were DEAD in our trespasses and sins. Because I was chosen in Him before the foundation of the earth and I wasn’t there!

    For 22 years we were unknowingly Arminian, that seems par for the course as a pentecostal/charismatic (though there are quite a few pentecostal churches in the States changing to a Reformed/Calvinistic view.I can give the links).

    Leaving C3, studying the bible verse by verse, in context, with great lecturers and pastors who didn’t make statements about being calvinistic, who simply read and taught the text, drew us to a reformed view before we even realised what was happening. All the more glory to God, by the way

    Back to free will…..

    “The phrase “free will” is not only missing from the original New Testament text, it is conspicuously absent from any passage addressing salvation. While the words “foreknowledge,” “predestination,” and “according to His will” are all firmly embedded in the language and context of salvation, “free will” is glaring in its absence.

    If anyone wants to argue that free will is the agency of salvation, they must demonstrate that Paul’s language clearly states such a premise (which they cannot do) and they must give us meaningful exegesis of the terminology Paul did choose to use and show us how it cumulatively means “we choose.” Unfortunately for them, it’s a losing proposition. So, they will ignore the language and insist on their tradition.”

  73. It would more appropriate to let this subject go with a closing statement from an Arminian…….

    “Yes I disagree with Calvin and Calvinism but I don’t believe that Arminianism is the Gospel. Every person who becomes a disciple of Jesus becomes a disciple by God’s grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) and by His Spirit drawing them to the Savior (John 6:44; Ephesians 1:3-14). I agree with Jonah that salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9) and I agree that there are no works that can bring salvation (Titus 3:5-7). Our salvation is based on the work of Jesus Christ alone (Romans 3:22-27) and it is Him alone that we should exalt. We can debate Arminianism and Calvinism but in the end, the glory of God demands that we worship, exalt, and declare His glory alone above all others.”

  74. I didn’t thunder. I said it quite calmly. 🙂

    My point is illustrated fabulously, though, being this: there is a difference of perspective between Calvinistic teaching on predestination and other understandings of what the texts reveal, and neither side will yield. Does this make one right and the other wrong? Not necessarily. I think our finite, limited thinking has created this dilemma, but it is the lack of understanding between the two sides which needs to be addressed.

    Inflexibility of positions has lead to accusations of cultism, particularly by the Calvin side, which will not yield in its unbending theological attack, especially on Pentecostalism, and the Contemporary Church. Volumes are being written attacking the position of those who believe in the gifts, manifestations and power ministry of the Holy Spirit working in the Church. As a result, you see far more apologetics against Pentecostalism and the more recent movements than you do by those being questioned.

    Most of the discernment ministries which oppose Pentecostalism approach scripture from a basis of Calvin. All other understandings of what God reveals are considered anathema. I think it is very sad and immature.

    They are immovable in their belief in the rigid teaching of Calvin in respect to predestination. It affects every belief they have in the Word, every concept of our interaction with God.

    It diminishes the responsibility of every human, let alone every believer, by overemphasising the role of God in our lives, which is not to diminish his role, but rather to diminish our responsibility in his role, our response to his approach.

    It denies the concept of choice, relegating it to God’s choice implanted in us, and so not genuine choice, and on faith, making it his faith implanted into us. It negates all interaction with God’s will and Word. It refutes the truth that it is God’s goodness which leads us to repentance, by replacing goodness with his sovereignty.

    So what criticism can a discernment ministry have of people who gather around the ministries they call cults, when they are clearly being manipulated by God into their position?

    Why bother to write sweeping apologetics about people who cannot help themselves, and have no recourse to their ideology since it was given them by the Sovereign God?

    Why come out against Pentecostals who teach prosperity, since it is God’s purpose for them to do so, and they are set for hell anyway, and draw others off their teaching, because they are destined in God to be cults, and those who are drawn to them are destined to burn in hell? Why argue with an unbeliever, when he is obviously wired to doubt?

    Why persuade anyone of anything, when it is all set out. We are mere puppets manipulated by a God who has organised a controlled environment in which we are merely bit players in a prescripted play, where every action and every thought is preconceived, and there is no spontaneity, there is no cause and effect, there is no impulsiveness?

  75. Yes, we are puppets in a sense, in that God is pulling the strings, working out His sovereign decrees. And I don’t mind, I’m just so overwhelmed that He chose me. And I love Jim McClarty’s response to the question….

    The question is not: How can God be like this?

    The proper question is: Does the Bible declare that this is what God is like?

    We must learn to align our thinking about God with what is actually declared about Him in the Scripture. And if the Bible states plainly that God picks, chooses, or elects based on His own freedom of choice and good pleasure, then we must learn to worship Him as exactly that sort of God.

    The apostle Paul expected that his theology would naturally lead to exactly the question your friend is asking. In fact, I have often argued that if you do not arrive at the question of fairness, you have yet to understand Paul’s argument in Romans 9. He knows that his teaching will drive folk to ask about the fairness of God’s sovereign right to be merciful to some while hardening others. So, let’s walk through a bit of Romans 9 and let the Scripture answer your question. Starting at Romans 9:9 we read:
    For this is a word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    Paul reached back into one of the most well-known events in Israel’s history. Just as God told Abraham that his firstborn son, Ishmael, would not receive the promised birthright blessings and inheritance, but “in Isaac shall thy seed be called,” so He decided in advance that the youngest of two twin boys would rule over his older brother. And while the twins were still in the womb, not having done any good or evil deeds, God already declared his love for one and rejection of the other.

    Why? “In order that God’s purpose according to His choice (election) might stand.”

    And what were the grounds on which God made this choice? “Not because of works, but because of Him that calls.” In other words, God did His choosing according to His own will and good pleasure.
    At that point, Paul knew that some would argue that this sort of picking and choosing of one against another without giving the rejected person an opportunity was simply unfair. So, Paul immediately addressed the question of fairness:

    What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
    So, what are we going to say? Knowing that God chose one child over the other, though they had done neither good nor bad — is that unfair? Paul’s answer is a definite “no.” It’s not unfair. What it IS, is the way God has always been. After all, He told Moses that He would have mercy on whomever He would and He would have compassion on whom He would. That’s how He is and how He’s always worked. So, Paul continued:

    So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

    On what basis does God make His decisions? Well, what we know for sure is that God’s choice is not dependent on a man’s will or a man’s physical activity; neither his decision nor his work can cause God to be merciful toward him. And since it is neither a matter of a man’s will nor action, then it must be a matter of Sovereign decision-making. That’s as much as we are told. God does what He does. But we are not told what standard or principle God uses to determine His choice. Just as God told Moses “I AM” and expected that to be sufficient, He also says “I choose” and He expects us to accept the fact that He is the God who does things according to His own will. That answer may not be completely satisfactory to our sense of inquiry and desire to know the cause of God’s every action, but it’s all God has deigned to tell us.

    Then Paul reached back to Moses’ dealings with Pharaoh and repeated the Scripture from Exodus that declares God activity of raising Pharaoh up to the position he held on Earth for the very purpose of showing His own power, resulting in His own name being declared in all the earth. And how did God accomplish His demonstration of power and glory? He hardened Pharaoh’s heart, resulting in numerous plagues throughout Egypt, culminating the death of all the firstborn. And from that event Paul draws the conclusion “God has mercy on whom He desires and He hardens whom He desires.”

    Whether or not we like that fact is immaterial. God is not waiting for our agreement or approval. This is how He is and how He has always been. That being the case, Paul assumes that his readers will arrive at the following question (just as your friend did):
    You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”

    That’s an excellent question. Far too often people attempt to make God more “fair.” They struggle to make sense of Romans 9 and make it more palatable to human concepts of justice. And they say things like,” Explain to me how this is just or loving: God leaves some people in the dark with no way to escape (except His grace, which He refuses to give them) and then punishes them for eternity because they are in darkness?” But, that’s precisely the question Paul anticipated. And unless you arrive at that question, you still haven’t understood the thrust of Paul’s argument.

    Why does God find fault, punish people, or leave them in the dark and then hold them responsible for their unbelief and sin when He simply did not give them the insight or faith to believe Him and be saved? How could He harden Pharaoh’s heart and then punish Pharaoh for his stubbornness? Why does He still find fault? For WHO resists the will of God? And if they are all doing what God willed they would do, then it’s simply unfair of God to hold them accountable for what He knew they were going to do!!!

    On the surface, it’s a compelling and mind-boggling argument. Yet, that is exactly how God is described and Paul knew his theology was going to lead people to the very conundrum your friend arrived at. So how did Paul answer?

    On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?

    Paul resorts to God’s sovereignty and the fact that He has always, always been exactly this way. That’s the only God you find in history or in the Bible. The God who made everything does what He wants with what He has created. That’s the way it is and the bits of pottery He has made have no right to shake their fist at the Maker and argue with what He has made. The Sovereign simply is not swayed by the man who insists on arguing with Him. The Creator of Heaven and Earth does what He wants — and He always has. So he makes some vessels for honor and some for common use. Some are made to be trophies of His grace while others (like Pharaoh) were created so that God could demonstrate His justice and His wrath.

    What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

    Look closely at Paul’s language. God is perfectly willing to show His wrath. That’s the part of God that is always reduced to nothingness when people argue that He must be completely and overwhelmingly “love.”

    Yes, it’s true that God is love. But, love is not God.

    God is infinitely holy and both his love and his justice serve His holy nature and character. So, though He’s willing to show His wrath and make His power known, He endured the “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.” That’s chilling language, but it is Bible language. And it’s meant to tell us something about God, mankind, and God’s sovereign will. He has created some vessels for the purpose of showing His wrath. Again, that’s how He is and how He has always been.

    Meanwhile, God has equally created “vessels of mercy” so that He could demonstrate the riches of His glory. We who have faith in the finished work of Christ are chosen from before the foundation of the world for this very purpose. And thank God for such grace.

    So, I said all that to say this: Emotional arguments of fairness based on our limited understanding of who God is and how He acts add nothing to the pursuit of proper theology and understanding of the Bible. A truncated view of God that insists that all His actions must be tempered by an overarching love for all mankind simply fail to take all of the Biblical evidence into account. Trying to bring God down to our level of relationship leaves us scratching our heads and wondering how He could act so independently and willfully. Always remember that God never equates our thoughts with His or our ways with His.

    For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:8-9)

    Regardless of how much we may dislike or rebel against what the Bible says, it still describes God only one way. Our job is to get in line what it does say and adjust our thinking accordingly. Our like or dislike of it is ultimately immaterial. God is God and He is always going to act in accordance with His own will.

    So, let’s answer your friend directly:
    “Explain to me how this is just or loving …”
    God is just in all that He does. Or in other words, whatever God does is just by virtue of whom it is that is acting. His holiness exceeds our grasp or comprehension. He is too holy not to do that which brings Him the greatest glory.

    And just as we are capable of discriminating in our love for our own children or spouses in a way we do love all of mankind, God can love His own without being obligated to love every individual in the exact same way. Inasmuch as no human being deserves God’s love or mercy, the very fact that He loves anyone at all proves that “God is love.”

    “God leaves some people in the dark with no way to escape (except His grace, which He refuses to give them) and then punishes them for eternity because they are in darkness?”

    It simply does not matter whether we consider that just or loving. It only matters whether or not God actually acts that way. The whole of the Bible testifies to the fact that God does what He wants to do, when He wants to do it, with whomever He chooses to do it. If He takes the same lump of clay and makes some vessels for honor and some for wrath, that’s His business. And if we find ourselves on the merciful side of that equation, then our business is to worship and adore Him for the God He is and the justice and love that drew us to Him. What He does with everyone else is up to Him.

    I hope that gives you something to chew on and hopefully gives you some new perspective on speaking with your friend. Remind him that his opinion is of no real consequence in the matter. I know that sounds a bit harsh. But, we simply cannot insist on holding God to human standards of fairness. He is going to be how He is going to be regardless of our opinion.
    Yours for His sake, Jim McClarty

  76. By the way, I did read the McClarty thing. It was very painful to do so. I have not read such a manipulative piece since the last time I went through a Watchtower magazine! I know that sounds strong, but I mean it.

    For instance, the main thrust of his argument in is summed up with this sentence:

    ‘So, we must see the difference between the spread of the gospel, the preached message that calls all men to repent, and the call of the Spirit that is the direct action of God to His specific people for the purpose of saving them.’

    That is very poor exegesis, and quite wrong.

    He creates a difference to prove his point when there is no difference. He creates two groups of people, where there is no two groups, when in fact God has broken down, through Christ, the partition and brought both together ( Eph.2:11-19). Please read this passage carefully.

    God is no respecter of persons. I have already explained this previously with what I said about the inclusion in God’s plans of both Jew and Greek, Jew and Gentile. It clearly tells us that all are included in God’s plans, and there is no separated predestined group which will be saved, and another predestined group which will not be saved.

    ‘But now in Christ Jesus, you who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ’.

    ‘For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation’.

    Every person, since the cross, has the same opportunity to respond to the gospel message if and when it is preached to them by those who are sent.

    There is no difference, all have fallen short of the glory of God, all need to repent, all are called to repent, but all who do repent will be saved.

    Romans 3
    21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE;
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
    25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
    26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    There is no difference for those who sinned. There is no difference for those Christ died for. There is no difference for those who can be saved.


    WHOSOEVER calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved: that is WHOSOEVER!

    Not an elite who will be saved, whilst others are predestined to die in their sins. That is cultish teaching. Yuk!

  77. The last thing I would want to do is put any man on a pedestal, whether it be John Macarthur, Jim McClarty, etc. That being said, Jim is a highly respected reformed theologian and pastor. He has gained a huge world wide internet audience through his excellent verse by verse teaching from his little church in Smyrna, Tennessee. Also to find himself in good company on http://www.reformedvoices.com/

    Any discussion or question or debate, he will happily take up with you as he has with me.

    By the way you come at this from a presuppositional point of view (in my opinion) not a biblical point of view.

  78. I try not to come at it with a presupposed position. I look at the texts.

    Paul is clearly saying that the middle partition between Jew and Greek is broken down by the cross of Christ.

    The key to everything in scripture is the position of Christ.

    He changed everything at the cross. He brought about a new thing at the resurrection. The playing field was levelled out. The sin of the world was paid for. The opportunity was made equal for every person, Jew or Greek, Bond or free, male or female.

    That is the power of the cross. That is what was predestined. All died in Christ on the cross. All sin was paid for.

    The key to eternal life is accepting the free pardon, which was acquired at the cross for everyone, not just an elite few. The truth is that some will refuse the offer and deny the Son. That is what condemns them, not predestination.

    Perhaps God, being God, knows from the beginning who they are, but it was always his will for all to be saved and come to the knowledge of God. Christ died for the whole world. He paid for every sin.

    1 Timothy 2:3-6
    God our Savior,
    4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
    6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time…

    And he is long-suffering, which means he is waiting for more to be saved. If he had a predestined number of people he would have a fixed time and not need to be long-suffering, since it would be known to him who would be saved.

    2 Peter 3
    9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

  79. Faithlift, you have too high a view of human nature and an inadequate understanding of God’s sovereignty.

  80. Dear sir/madam,
    it has been a wonderful time reading w.m.branham’s books and it has really impacted me.i thank God for bringing him to bless and teaching us the truth.
    please sir/madam, it has always been my greatest joy to read and know more about w.m.branham and his message books.please sir kindly send me some of his books like the Greater glory/fresh fire with the seven church ages and any other books he has written.below is my address.
    sylvanus gbolo
    p o box 749
    west africa

  81. Please would you be so kind as to let me know why my ministry has been associated with this group. I have never belong to and or agree with these and I demand that my name be removed.



  82. Someone emailed me what they grabbed off Todd Bentley’s Facebook and the Prophetic Roundtable.

    It looks like the Prophetic Roundtable were a Facebook member of your ministry. They chose to be a member of your ministry. I’m not familiar with Facebook.

    I don’t think you have anything to do with them. I don’t see you associated with them by reading what is above.

  83. I visited Mark’s website, and came across a copy of an article by another guy with a prophetic ministry, Andrew Strom. Reading this made me wonder if both Mark and Andrew might be sympathetic to a lot of the issues we raise here regarding church conduct. In fact, looking at some of Andrew Strom’s up to date stuff, he has disassociated himself from various ‘prophets’, including both Todd Bentley and Rick Joyner. Quite interesting. So if Mark is sympathetic to where Strom is today, he may really not want his name associated in any way with those other ministries, even by accident.


    I get the impression Strom believes people are leaving the big churches because God is calling them out, and that this will lead to a big revival.

    As someone who currently can’t attend church because I feel distinctly that this is a season where I am really not meant to be there! – I found his stuff interesting. Not that I’m jumping in to endorse it either. I have no idea what he does. I do have an inkling about some of the work I believe God is doing in me over this time. One thing I did identify with that Strom referred to, was being out of church to get some of the religiousity out of me. But also for me, its to straighten my head out, without undue influences from an untested pulpit.


    It is interesting to see protests against these guys coming from a prophetic stream which some might at first think is the same thing.

  84. I visited Mark’s website, and came across a copy of an article by another guy with a prophetic ministry, Andrew Strom. Reading this made me wonder if both Mark and Andrew might be sympathetic to a lot of the issues we raise here regarding church conduct. In fact, looking at some of Andrew Strom’s up to date stuff, he has disassociated himself from various ‘prophets’, including both Todd Bentley and Rick Joyner. Quite interesting. So if Mark is sympathetic to where Strom is today, he may really not want his name associated in any way with those other ministries, even by accident.


    I get the impression Strom believes people are leaving the big churches because God is calling them out, and that this will lead to a big revival.

  85. As someone who currently can’t attend church because I feel distinctly that this is a season where I am really not meant to be there! – I found his stuff interesting. Not that I’m jumping in to endorse it either. I have no idea what he does. I do have an inkling about some of the work I believe God is doing in me over this time. One thing I did identify with that Strom referred to, was being out of church to get some of the religiousity out of me. But also for me, its to straighten my head out, without undue influences from an untested pulpit.


    It is interesting to see protests against these guys coming from a prophetic stream which some might at first think is the same thing.

  86. @ravingpente

    Mathew 7:15
    “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”

    quote ravingpente
    “I get the impression Strom believes people are leaving the big churches because God is calling them out”

    I think eventually those who are one with God will see the light or is that be guided towards the truth.

    JMO…Either way it can’t be a bad thing.

  87. I placed the following on the article Mark:

    “Edit 11/10/10: Mark Labuschagne is mentioned in the above article. From information gathered on the Prophetic Roundtable’s Facebook information about the Prophetic Roundtable being a ‘member’ of ‘Mark Labuschagne Ministries’, mark has stressed that he is not ‘associated with this group’.”

    I hope that makes you happy.

  88. Wooow a pillbox for the prophetic roundtable on Facebook. Someone made an enemies out of allot of good people because they received a brother in restoration. Intresting???
    Since Jesus saved that which was lost and not for the self-righteous and the religious, would any of you make friends with a homeless or person needing Jesus.
    Because everyone who has written anything on this page falls short of the Glory of God and God the Father recieved you….. From hear on. Would only those without sin cast the next stones

  89. Todd Bentley disqualified himself from public ministry by divorcing his wife and marrying the woman he committed adultery with.

    Besides, Jesus never said that only the morally perfect can “cast the first stone”.

    That was a reference to the law of Moses. Go read the passage again.

  90. You can tell if someone is saved or not by weather they gossip and their real motive is to destroy another. Then send you hate emails and threaten you because you spoke up about the grace of God.

    Especially when they want you to hate the person that they have an issue with.

  91. You can tell if someone is saved or not when you see them dishonour their marriage and marry the person they commited adultery with.

    Then they get rushed straight back into ministry. MOney is their god.

    Yahweh is mine. He is the Father of Jesus.

    Todd Bentley, on the other hand, blasphemes the Holy Spirit.

    Beleive what you want, but Jesus came to bring sinners to repentance, that they might have eternal life through Him. He did not come so that criminals can pretend to be holy and yet behave so badly that they bring the Church and God Himself into disrepute.

    Lakeland was a drunken, adulterous farce.

    Rick Joyner (a knight of Malta) should be ashamed of himself, but he is only interested in the money Todd can bring into morningstar.

    I pray that you find the True God and the True Gospel.


  92. After reading this post a few days ago, I made a few inquiries. I recommend that those reading this do the same.
    The conference at the top of this page used to discredit the prophetic roundtable was not put on by the roundtable. It was put on by another group. The deception on this site to prove the owners point is false and slanderus and should be removed.

    It is a shame that sites like this go up in the name of Christ.
    It is no wonder that the world see us as crazy.

  93. The original purpose of this site was for those of us still around after the first signposts got closed to comments could continue to link up, and to observe the new movements happening in the name of Christ and comment on them.

    Specks&Planks was the originator of this particular post, so I would like him to respond to Bill.

    Other than that, this site is not a discernment site and indeed, the link to the “Endtimes” blog has its own problems since that site owner is in some legal difficulties herself (not to do with what she has posted on her blog, btw) and as such it is perhaps prudent for SP02 to de-link from that blog for the time being.

    @S&P if you can refute the accusation by Bill that the Fresh*Fire conference is not linked to the Prophetic Roundtable then please do so. Otherwise I will have to edit the post to reflect this new info.


  94. “The deception on this site to prove the owners point is false and slanderous and should be removed.”

    My motive was not to be slanderous. The tone of this article was informative and speculative. I informed the online community of Todd Bentley’s ‘Greater Glory Gathering’. I made the observation that Todd Bentley was friends with the Prophetic Roundtable. The Prophetic Roundtable in the UK are false. But Todd Bentley is friends with this one in America.

    At the end of this article I wrote, “It’s interesting to see the groups and ministries that Prophetic Roundtable is associated with. I have heard of a ‘Prophetic Roundtable’ in the UK from Miriam’s site, End Times Prophetic. Is this part of that, only in America? Because of Bentley’s friendship or re-connection with them, does that mean he’s planning sometime soon to hit the UK?

    Bull should be able to fill us in.”

    It is clear that I left this article open for editing since I was hoping to get more information from others on this. Thank you for your comments Big Bill.

  95. I received a number of Calls about the information given on this site. I am the overseer for The Prophetic Rountable. It is obvious someone did not do their homework, here. Anyone can call and get the correct information. 626-372-4163

  96. it would be appreciated if the demeaning remark concerning Todd Bentley be removed

    Well David, that comment is a real kick in the teeth.

  97. specksandplates and wazza2. I have met these guys personally and have heard them. they point to Jesus and express his love which is what they are meant to do. I have discerned what I have heard from these guys through the holy spirit and in scripture and have been brought up in an evangelical church and they preach nothing but love and Jesus. Stop accusing your brothers. I am ashamed to call you my brother or sister in the Lord when you are just producing hate. the end times website is nothing but a hate filled religious dark website full of garbage and accusation. Remember Jesus hated the Pharisees. They also played an influential role in putting him to death.

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