Dream On Dreaming On…

It’s quite clear God uses our dreams to speak to us in the bible:

Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou [art but] a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she [is] a man’s wife.

Gen 31:11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, [saying], Jacob: And I said, Here [am] I.

Their are other people who God spoke to in dreams, the two Josephs, Nebuchadnezzar, Abraham, Pharoah, his baker and cup-holder, etc.

There are some  ministries that focus on evangelising to people by interpreting their dreams to see God save them. Should there be offices given to those who dream prophetic dreams or who are dream interpreters or do both?

The reason why I say this is because God only seems to speak to some people through dreams, while other people through different ways.

What are your thoughts about Christianity and the ‘dreamworld’? Has God spoken to you or someone you know through dreams?

And supposedly you can use a dream dictionary to help interpret dreams (probably non-Christian):

http://www.dreammoods.com/dreamdictionary/

S&P


57 thoughts on “Dream On Dreaming On…

  1. Some perspective – it’s up to you to decide whether to go along with this advice….

    QUESTION:

    Does the Lord still use dreams today? What do our dreams mean today? Is there a way to analyze our dreams to gain spiritual growth? Are we vulnerable to spiritual attack in our sleep?

    ANSWER:

    Let me begin by quoting a statement on dreams by John MacArthur:

    “It was not that unusual for God to reveal His plans in dreams to people in the past. Numbers 12:6 says that the Lord spoke to the prophets in visions and dreams. In Genesis 28:10-15 Jacob had a dream that promised him the land of Palestine. God spoke in dreams to Joseph (Gen. 37:5-10), Abimelech (Gen. 20:3), and Solomon (1 Kings 3:5-15). God revealed to Pharaoh in a dream that Egypt would experience seven years of plenty followed by seven years of famine (Gen. 41:1-8). Through a dream God indirectly provided encouragement to Gideon and his men (Judg. 7:13-15). God no longer speaks through dreams because He has completed His revelation. Hebrews 1:2 says He “hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.” But in former days, God chose to speak through dreams.” [quoted from “The Forgotten Dream and the Unforgettable Daniel” (Daniel 2-1-30) ].

    Now with that as a background I will attempt to answer your questions about dreams:

    Does the Lord still use dreams today?

    No, He uses His Word, with the Holy Spirit giving us an understanding of it.

    What do our dreams mean today?

    Nothing significant, nor anything that should ever cause us to make any decision based on them. They are best left alone and forgotten.

    Is there a way to analyze our dreams to gain spiritual growth?

    Absolutely not. Dreams are not to ever be trusted as anything but random thoughts. We are to use the written and infallible Word for our spiritual growth.

    Are we vulnerable to spiritual attack in our sleep?

    No, but Satan would like to make some people think so, and if they do respond then he can really cause a lot of havoc. Just ignore your dreams. To try to figure out secret messages or meanings in dreams is like putting trust in Astrology and Palm Readers.

    I believe I gave you the right answers, answers that would please Christ. The “world” likes to get all wrapped up in the significance of dreams, but the “world’ has no clue of the source of truth, so they accept almost anything. We are not of the world, for Christ has taken us out of the world.

  2. That being said, I had several dreams about 15 years ago that seemed to suggest “be aware of not building your foundation on shifting sand but rather on the Rock.” Seeing where we are now, as exC3, perhaps that was a warning even back then!

    I would have the same dream where our home was on the water’s edge and the sea was constantly undermining the foundations.

    On waking, the scripture would come to me from Matthew 7:24…”Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

    Apart from those few times, I don’t put much stock in dreams, as we can often relate back to an experience or movie or tv or event or meal!!…that may have prompted it.

  3. God speaks in many wonderful and wierd ways. I wouldn’t like to limit it but you should use wisdom and learn when it is Him and when it is too much cheese.

    I’m trying to avoid the dreaming though – isn’t it for old people to dream dreams????

  4. Again John McArthur ignores a significant aspect of the Word of God, the very Word he claims he uses.

    Acts 2
    12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”
    13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”
    14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
    15 “For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
    16 “But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
    17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
    18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.

    The young men will see visions and the old men will dream dreams. That is part of the NT. Do we still have a call and the grace for the call? Are we still being sent out to preach the gospel? Do we know everything because we have the Word? Or does God reveal things to us through prophecy, visions and dreams still?

    In claiming that the Word of God has replaced just about every spiritual gift or manifestation in the NT canon, McArthur denies his hearers and readers a significant portion of their mandate.

    I guess, when knowledge vanishes away, we will be able to claim that tongues have ceased, and prophecy has failed, and the perfect will be here, and the manifestations will be done away.

  5. To qualify something I just wrote:

    When I say God reveals things to us, I do not mean anything which additional to revealed scripture, but the specifics of a call in terms of our mandate, that is, where we might be sent, to whom and how we go about evangelising them.

  6. Here’s an awfully scary tweet quote from a C3 pastor…..

    “God can’t do what u can’t imagine! You’ll never have what you can’t picture in your mind, your ability 2 dream & believe creates realities!”

    Wow, so God isn’t sovereign? A C3 pastor who limits God by his (the pastor’s) own ability to imagine?

  7. Faithlift…Your “dislike” of John Macarthur is eerily similar to PP, who believes that John Macarthur “hates” pentecostals (not true – just hates false teaching, great friends with pentecostal CJ Mahaney, doing conferences together etc)

    PP also says that John Macarthur hates the “prosperity gospel” (true)…. PP gave away something there don’t you think? By the way, don’t doubt that this was said by PP, it was a one on one conversation with a close relative.

  8. I think he’s coming from the perspective; “as you think, so you are”. Though God can do abundantly more than we can think or imagine – so he’s short changing himself.

  9. This sounds like the “vision casting” method promoted by PP, who adapted Yonggi Cho’s methodology. Applying Cho’s teaching is based on mystical, Word-of-Faith and Buddhist-like heresies.

    “You create the presence of Jesus with your mouth. If you speak about salvation, the saving Jesus appears. If you speak about divine healing, then you will have the healing Christ in your congregation. If you speak the miracle performing Jesus, then the presence of the miracle performing Jesus is released. He is bound by your lips and by your words. He is depending on you.” Fourth Dimension, (page 83)

    No, He’s not dependent on us. I suppose I’ve waved the red flag again, FL?

  10. I understand your point Teddy. Jesus is not dependent upon us. But our words, I believe are creatively powerful. God created everything by His Word, including us who were made in His image.

  11. I agree Muppet, but there’s a method at C3 that was there even when we were, that promotes an extreme.

    We have (had sadly) friends who were more devoted to what Charles Capps and Yonggi Cho etc, say in their books, rather than the Bible. The anger, the table slapping, if you dare suggest “let’s look at God’s Word and compare”! These people hang on for years waiting for something to materialise, just because they named it and claimed it!

    This boils down to really bad shepherding, and a lack of sound teaching.

  12. Crikey – I’m not too familiar with C3 teaching – it does sound odd. How are such misunderstandings resolved at C3? Do they get discussed in fellowship groups?

  13. Yes, we were involved in such a group where all were in agreement, even the pastors (husband and wife). They were told (by executive staff)to bring up any issues from congregants at pastoral meetings – to no avail.

    Some of us eventually left, some have stayed, hoping for change.

    This is an interesting truthful article about Yonggi Cho, and I have read the book mentioned (and chucked it) “The Fourth Dimension”…..
    http://testallthings.com/2007/07/14/paul-david-yonggi-cho/

    I have heard PP call this man Cho, his mentor.

  14. Part of the above attached article on Cho states

    …….. “when we come to the Bible we cannot find any of these instructions or ideas. We look in vain for any advice about visualizing, incubating, imagining, or any other technique of sorcery or will-power designed to dominate God and to take away His sovereignty over the lives of His people. In the Bible we find that even an apostle like Paul is obliged to ask God in a humble, dependent way if he might be enabled to visit the people of a certain church–subject to the will of God.

    The Apostle Paul, judged in the light of Paul Cho’s books, was a dismal failure because he knew what it felt like to be abased, to endure hardship, and to encounter many, many difficulties. So often events did not turn out according to his wish or endeavor as a servant of Christ. Paul evidently made the mistake of negative thinking – accepting trials and tribulations. Overall he failed miserably in the use of his fourth-dimensional powers, never proving successful at fantasying or willing anything into existence.”

  15. By the way the article on Yonggi Cho was written by
    Peter Masters, pastor of Spurgeon’s Metropolitan Tabernacle in London.

  16. Teddy, I didn’t say I liked or disliked McArthur. I’m sure he’s a very nice person.

    I commented on what he said in your quote above.

    McArthur,
    ‘Does the Lord still use dreams today?
    No, He uses His Word, with the Holy Spirit giving us an understanding of it.’

    Well this is patently incorrect and misleading. Would you rather the readers here be misled?

    He is saying that God doesn’t give dreams under the NT. It’s clear that scripture tells us NT saints will have visions and dreams. The book of Acts testifies to people having dreams and visions.

    McArthur is, by his own teaching, a cessationist. On that basis I made my comments that he denies a huge chunk of scripture to his hearers by leaving out the gifts, the manifestations, speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc. In fact, he determines, by his wrong doctrine on these subjects, that the Holy Spirit no longer functions as he did in the beginning of the NT. Yet scripture states that God is no preferrer of persons. If so, why would he heal during the era of the Book of Acts, and not today?

    Hanging out with a Pentecostal mate has made no difference to his stance on these issues. But we live in hope.
    •••••••••••••••••••••••

    So are you saying that Cho is a Buddhist?

    Is growing a church full of people, over 800,000 members, who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and are filled with the Spirit, praying 24 hours a day for the whole earth to be saved, evidence that he does indeed know how to employ visions and dreams in God, or that Buddhism is more powerful than Christianity?

    There is actually a fair bit of scripture which speaks about visualising an outcome, and the permission from God, yes even the Sovereign God, to activate his will by what we say, including permission to speak various things into being. Hope is a form of visioning the future. Faith b rings it into being. God’s sovereignty is outworked in the Church by his permissive will, by his charge to his saints, and by his purposes. He is able to do exceedingly above all we ask or think.

  17. Of course Cho is a buddhist.

    Islam is a the fastest growing religion in the world. Is God blessing Islam?

  18. The Islamists are not preaching Christ! Cho is!

    What you say is utter nonsense. The logic being; a person revered something before they were saved, therefore they still revere it! How dumb is that thinking?

    So, when we repent and turn to Jesus it only counts if we have never been associated with another religion before were saved?

    Claptrap!

  19. The C3 sacred cows are being questioned, Yonggi Cho’s methods/doctrine being one of them. His own words/books betray his heretical teaching.

  20. FL, even guys like Jack Hayford admit to being partial cessationists i.e. he doesn’t believe the gifts operate as they did with the apostles.

    I’m not a cessationist, because God can do whatever he likes. However, I do not believe what’s operating in most churches today are true spiritual gifts.

    People are deceiving themselves and being deceived.

  21. “I’m not too familiar with C3 teaching – it does sound odd. How are such misunderstandings resolved at C3? Do they get discussed in fellowship groups?”

    As a whole, they don’t. They get swept under the rug and out the door. They like to have tight oversight over their connect groups – but I have seen home group leaders and even entire groups disagree with C3 doctrine. But that’s as far it goes.

    They can’t resolve it in the church or with other connect groups.

    About that Yonngi Cho’s book, C3’s Leadership Training College HAVE to read it. A lovely girl last year told me about how they have to read it. If I remember correctly, she said that they must to do an assessment or report on it.

    Sounds real dodgy Teddy. Is the book overall good, or is it that bit that got your attention?

  22. Faithlift:
    “Is growing a church full of people, over 800,000 members, who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and are filled with the Spirit, praying 24 hours a day for the whole earth to be saved, evidence that he does indeed know how to employ visions and dreams in God, or that Buddhism is more powerful than Christianity?”

    Wow! Run away then! That sounds REALLY religious! Who cares about Buddhism!

  23. Well FL, Islam is so successful, I thought I would mention the fact because your definition of Cho’s ministry is all about how many he has in his church.

    Evidence of blessing is not evidence of God’s approval.

    Is Cho a disciple of the real Jesus? Read his books and check him out. Extremely sound bible teachers have slammed his doctrine. The moonies have been successful too. No one calls them true Christians (except maybe themselves).

    Cho has merely brought Buddhism into Christianity.

    But, he must be ok cos PP has called him his mentor.

    Shalom

  24. Specks, When I was caught in all the “charismania”, I bought all the books – Hagin, Hinn,Bevere,Capps, Yonggi Cho etc etc. Basically all the “name and claim it” books (though severe Bevere is more legalistic pietism).

    Probably read “The Fourth Dimension” twice. And like all other books of that type, they went to the gargage tip. If anyone saw the story on “4 Corners” about scientology, there was an Aussie couple who were filling their car boots with those cultic books and taking them to the tip too.

    I wouldn’t even give the books I had away – just as I stopped inviting people to come to church C3 (towards the end).

  25. I’ve never read “The Fourth Dimension”. How far from the truth does it go? Is it just Cho’s expression of Christ in his cultural context (Budhist) or more than this? Is it worse than our incorrect understandings of Christ expressed through our western minds?

  26. These comments pretty cover it….

    “Yonggi Cho is a hybrid of many things. It’s difficult to put the finger on it because there are times when he will articulate the gospel as we know the gospel. But, it is laced with all of that “health/wealth/prosperity/healing” kind of thing that’s sort of a white magic approach.

    In other words, if you put all the right gimmicks together and say all the right words — in fact, much of that stuff is almost like a mantra in “transcendental meditation” where you just keep telling yourself something is true over and over and over again. You keep reciting it and claiming it, and claiming it, and claiming it, and claiming it, until it happens.

    Is he a full, thorough-going, biblical evangelical? More likely he is a “syncretistic eclectic” who’s collected a whole lot of different things.”

  27. Jonathan Edwards once wrote, “Beware of living your life by impressions,”……

    Yonggi Cho commends the Japanese Buddhists occultists, the Sogogaki for performing miracles through visualizing a picture of prosperity, repeating phrases over and over and developing the human spiritual fourth dimension and he scolds Christians for not doing likewise. He says they do it in the occult movement, why can’t we do it? He believes that you can create your own reality.

  28. It seems like the church might need to start wearing some protection …….

    “A tin foil hat is a piece of headgear made from one or more sheets of aluminium foil or similar material. Alternatively it may be a conventional hat lined with foil. People wear the hats in the belief that they act to shield the brain from such influences as mind control ; they also serve to attempt to limit the transmission of voices directly into the brain.” 🙂

  29. My apologies, I had an M. Night Shyamalan moment. The result of opening my home to a very late night of tupperware partying!

    Can’t believe I actually placed an order – great sales pitch against the dangers of “Thai Tupperware” (and we all re-use that stuff, don’t we?)

  30. When I was first at C3 under Phil Pringle about 20 years ago, I read ‘The Fourth Dimension’. It was suggested to me by one of my friends in my house church. It has been a staple part of the C3 diet for a very long time.

    My understanding was that Phil Pringle was an admirer of Yonggi Cho and looked to him as an example to follow. Yonggi Cho had one of the fastest (if not the fastest) growing churches in the world, and one of the biggest, even at that time. Also, Cho had a very effective cell group system, which was the key to his church growing but remaining supportive and connected to all its members. So the house church system at the time I was there was brought in partly to emulate this effective example. It was a way of coping with a growing church and ensuring people still had the ‘family’ they have in smaller churches which could otherwise get lost in a very big church.

    Additionally, Cho’s method of prayer was to be emulated. The Fourth Dimension mainly taught on prayer – at least that is my memory of it. It influenced me for many years, and its teachings still come to my mind today. This was one of the key differences between C3 and my previous Anglican church, apart from Pentecostal giftings. (They both encouraged tithing though.)

    The most important instruction that I recall was that when we pray we are to be specific. We were to visualise what we prayed for in as much detail as possible; to see it as if it was there in front of us in the physical. This ‘birthed’ it in the spirit. We were then to believe we had already received it and to thank God for it, and not doubt. Doubt would destroy the effectiveness of the prayer. We would repeat scriptures about believing and receiving out loud, to strengthen our faith, because faith comes by hearing the word. Our words were the substance of what we hoped for. We would therefore speak it into being, very specifically. This specific, spoken, repetitive prayer was very belief building, and felt very powerful.

    The thing I could never get a handle on was me inventing what I wanted and then believing it into being.

    I never had a problem with God showing me what to pray for, and then praying specifically for that. For me, it was always a matter of sensing that God had given me faith to pray in a certain direction or for a certain thing. Then, it was great to pray with such confidence. But it was not me making God do something, but me praying in line with where I felt he would have me pray. So sometimes, I might want something, but sense that this was not what God wanted me to pray for, and I’d just pray about it, leaving it in His hands whatever the outcome. Other times, I would have a ‘knowing’ about something specific, then be able to pray accordingly. I could even thank God for it in advance because He’d already given me that knowing.

    So I feel that the main error in this teaching is that we decide what to pray for without respect to God’s will on the matter. We just decide what we want, then apply the method. If however, we are praying with a mind to serve Him, and seek His will on a matter, then when we have discernment, we can pray confidently on that item. But it isn’t that we have just decided what we want. And, we can pray effectively just by asking God to move in an area and leaving the result in His hands, trusting that He will work for good in all things, and knows better than we do. This is quite different from Cho’s method.

    PP used to apply this method to praying for church growth. He used to tell us of his visions, or we’d hear people telling of their own prophetic visions, where he/they had seen a church of 100,000 people or some such number. Then we’d thank God for it, and start to visualise and pray it into being.

    So this permeated the whole church culture.

    The good thing about it was that it promoted prayer. The bad thing is that it promoted false applications of scripture to prayer, and encouraged people to determine what they wanted, then pray for it, without necessarily conforming their minds to God’s mind on whatever the matter was. Then if someone didn’t get the result they wanted, it was lack of faith.

    An example – one person trying to complete their HSC in faith, without studying. That might sound stupid, but it was taking this teaching very literally, and applying ‘faith’ to the matter. Another example – I had a time of depression, and gave one of my uni subjects no effort at all as a result. I prayed about it, and knew that I was going to fail that subject. I knew in my spirit that to pray to pass would be fruitless and to pray out of line with God’s indication to me. But a friend rebuked me, saying I should pray to pass and if I believed enough I would. I disagreed. I failed the subject. And as a result of that failure, I spent the next year at uni with a bunch of fantastic people that I hadn’t had the chance to study with before, who remained friends for years. Also, I then did extremely well in my next subject load, partly due to reduced pressure as my subjects were spread out a little more with an extra semester to complete them in. So God worked for good, and trusting in Him rather than trying to make Him do what I thought would have been better at the time, worked out for the best.

    So this teaching from Cho is extremely influential at C3, and is very unbalanced. People make decisions because of it rather than applying wisdom to a situation and sometimes seek their own will rather than God’s will. This is unhelpful and unfruitful. Interestingly, 20 years later, the church is still not 10,000 people, let alone 100,000, so a re-evaluation would be in order if there was not so much ego at stake!

  31. I didn’t realise this, but God appeared to Jacob in a dream instructing him practically how to gain Laban’s flocks.

    If he didn’t listen to his dreams, he would have been stuffed. Same with Abraham.

  32. I think that dreams can be used by God, like anything can, to communicate with us in a clear and very personal way at times. It would seem unnecessarily legalistic to say that God doesn’t do this, and also contrary to what scripture has recorded God doing in the past. John MacArthur is a wise man in many ways, but he has his own predjudices as well. I think he’s too black and white in this area. As you say Teddy, God can do whatever He likes. Since he’s spoken through a donkey in the past, I imagine a dream is pretty simple.

    This doesn’t mean that every dream or even many dreams afe from God, or that we should go analysing all our dreams, searching for meaning.

    I think that if God wants to show us something specific in this way – based on scripture – 1. We will be confident that this dream is different from other dreams and that it seems to be from God; 2. It will be something relevant to our personal situation; 3. It won’t contradict what God has already shown us in scripture; 4. We will either understand its meaning clearly or we will have someone close to us who can clarify it for us.

    We don’t need dream dictionaries, dream interpreters or people who have ‘dream ministries’. I’d definitely steer clear of all that. On the other hand, if someone comes to you about a dream they have had that they think might have been God telling them something, then you can pray about it, even in a group, and ask God to bring understanding where needed. The person should then be able to say whether it makes sense or not.

    I had a dream once which made something quite clear to me about my own situation; whether it was my subconscious or the Holy Spirit speaking to me, it helped me make a decision about some stuff I needed to deal with, instead of putting it off. That was a good thing. It certainly got me praying afresh on the subject.

  33. This reminds me, once a long time ago, I had a game I could play with people, where I would interpret images that they brought to mind in response to certain questions. Then I would tell them all about what kind of person they were. This was a game. It was like a party trick. Nonetheless, it gave people the heebee-geebees. It would have ‘felt’ like I was psychic. I wasn’t, but I did know how to use my imagination. I’ve actually forgotten how it went now, but it just shows how easy it is to ‘interpret’ someone’s imaginings, and that people shouldn’t just swallow everything they hear.

  34. You sort of know when a dream is telling you something, it usually stays in your mind, fragments of it too. I had a great dream about someone in my life. It was so true and confirmed a question i had in that relationship. Do women dream more than men, or do we talk about it more 🙂

  35. Cho is not a Buddhist! He is an AOG Pastor; of a significant church.

    ‘The Fourth Dimension’ was basically on prayer. Whether you believe it or not, there is, mathematically, and scientifically, a fourth dimension. There is also a fifth dimension, which is even harder for us to visualise, because we are naturally finite, whereas these higher dimensions touch infinity. God lives in the eternal realm. He is the Alpha and the Omega, he sees the end from the beginning, he calls things which be not as though they are.

    We experience natural life in the third dimension, but that is because we are physical beings ad primarily sense directed, but there is a spiritual, eternal dimension which we can also interact with when we are bon again – born of the Spirit.

    If we approach prayer, or anything spiritual, on the second or third dimension we will be extremely limited in our understanding of what takes place in other dimensions, which we can experience, but are not open to our natural senses, or the soul, in the same way they are to our spirit.

    ‘While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal’ 2 Cor.4:18).

    So, how many readers here have a heavenly hope? Do you see, or have you ever seen heaven? Who believes in Jesus Christ? Have you ever seen him? Yet your faith is on the unseen, and you visualise seeing him ad his heaven, just as Abraham looked for the Heavenly Jerusalem, even refusing to live in houses, but rather being a sojourner, searching for his homeland.

    Prayer is always of the future, and always visualises an outcome we do not yet see or have. ‘Whatsoever things you desire, when you pray, believe you receive them, and you shall have them’ – Jesus.

    How often have you prayed for something you already have? Well, that would be foolish, or at best unnecessary, would it not?

    What do you pray for? That which you do not have, but which you would like to have in the future.

    So, do you pray randomly, or specifically? We know that specific prayer, based on the Word and will of God is best. Therefore we know what we are praying for before we ask. What did Jesus say about this? ‘Ask and it shall be given you’, and ‘everyone that asks receives’, but James says, ‘you have not because you ask not, or you ask amiss’.

    So, then, we need not ask amiss, or fail to ask, which tells us that we need to ask specifically. In other words, have a plan, have a vision, see what we are asking for before we ask – visualisation.

    Then what? Do we ask and ask for the same outcome, or do we give thanks for that which we have asked, until we see it, however long it might take? Abraham waited 25 years for the promised son. How long does it take before we can say we missed God? Methuselah waited 960 years!

    Is there any parent here who doesn’t ask specifically for the well-being of their children? Do you not visualise their destiny and security in God? We all do it. We all pray for what is ahead, not for what has been, or what is. We all hope for what God says we can.

    1 John 5
    14 ¶ Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
    15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
    •••••••••••••••••••••

    Whether or not Hayford is a part cessationist doesn’t detract from the fact the McArthur is completely wrong to teach that God doesn’t give dreams or visions under the NT.

    I’m sure Hayford believes in dreams and visions, being a Pentecostal. Does he say they have ended with the OT?

  36. RP thanks for the detail. That puts a lot in context and helps those of us that have had nothing to do with C3.

    In relation to dreaming – I never dream much, and when I do, I rarely remember the details. Though I do day dream a lot. And funnily enough, God often talks to me while I’m day dreaming. I think it is usually the time when I’m still enough to hear His voice away from the busyness of life.

    When God does talk its usually fairly obvious, uplifting, encouraging etc. I certainly wouldn’t need a dream interpreter.

    However, prophecy can be an effective way of introducing non-Christians to Christ. I’m sure God could use someone’s dream as a back drop for prophecy or a word of knowledge.

    Maybe with dream interpreters the gifting is prophecy and the dream is just a point of reference??!

  37. agree muppet, daydreaming is a good quiet time to hear God’s voice, that’s quite true…..its nice isnt it

  38. There is quite a difference between hope for the future and the kind of detail that we were taught to pray about. For example, a particular house in a particular street, or a house with a white picket fence and a red garage door, with 3 gardenias in the garden bed on the right hand side. That is the level of detail.

    It wasn’t about asking that your children be healthy. It would be something like asking that they get into a particular school, in a particular fashion, or get a particular grade in particular subjects.

    FL, you probably don’t know the culture at C3OF and what we were taught. I was there for almost 10 years. Teddy for longer.

    I didn’t even say that we shouldn’t pray specifically – but I qualified it, in terms of our relationship with God directing us. Not in terms of us dreaming up a detailed order form for the material things we’d particularly like. Of course I’d pray for my children’s health – what parent wouldn’t. But the way you put it really isn’t the way I was taught it. The way you put it sounds harmless and innocent, but that is not how it came through. I gave two examples where it was wrong to be so literal about it, without the Holy Spirit’s guidance or without personal wisdom.

    When ‘The Secret’ came out, it was pretty much like a translation of what Cho taught, but without needing Jesus.

  39. “It would be something like asking that they get into a particular school, in a particular fashion, or get a particular grade in particular subjects.”

    And please don’t misconstrue me that we can’t pray for these things. But we can’t order them up like a hamburger at MacDonalds. The kids have to do the work; they have to go through whatever process they need to to get into the school – though perhaps circumstances might be opened up or provided that help. But perhaps God knows better than us at times about what is best for their future, or has His own plan, and then we don’t get the result we were hoping for. So better to trust in Him overall, rather than use Him like a vending machine where the currency is faith that has been psyched up, rather than a result of listening to His voice.

  40. You’rs right about “The Secret” RP, that’s the book I was thinking of too. Not that I read but heard enough about to make the connection. A lot of Christian had alarrm bells ringing about that.

    And I believe that Faithlift is VERY aware of C3 culture, I’m beginning to think we may have met! 🙂

  41. I was involved in a car accident about 10 years ago. I slepted at the wheel and crashed into a tree. The left leg caught on fire and two by= passers had 20 litres of water in the car and put out the fire.

    Anyway, I lost all my toes on my left leg and I experienced post tramatic. One night I had a dream that I that saved people from a fire.

    From that point I was healed from post tramatic. I believe that God healed me through the dream.

    The bible is a vehicle for God to speak to us, it isn’t God himself. God speaks through people, situations, dreams, movies and whatever way it deems fit to him.

  42. I’d have to agree with Facelift here. Cho is not Buddhist.

    I’d say New Age suits him better.

    Did anyone see “The Source of the Secret” released in 2008? In it were Oral Roberts and John Bevere. There was even the book out. They were promoted int the C3OF gold store for a while. I flicked through the book.

    It was disgusting! Obviously Jesus is ‘the Source’ (but why didn’t they change the methods?).

  43. Sorry to hear that Todd. Nice testimony though. Never heard of dream-healing. I suppose that can be done.

  44. Gosh, Todd, its not surprising you had post traumatic stress. Wonderful to hear how God healed it. I have no problem with it being during a dream. God can and does do as He chooses.

    I think you are right about God using different vehicles to communicate with us at different times. Typically it is the Bible, but many times other people, situations or as you say, whatever way He sees fit. Even creation itself in some ways.

    I fell asleep at the wheel once. Woke up as I was about to cross the centre line of the road into oncoming traffic. It was peak hour in the morning, on a main road, and I’d been up all night. I’ll never forget it. I was lucky not to be in a head-on.

  45. Cho isn’t New Age, either!

    I think you’re looking at scripture through the Greek mindset, frankly. You have to look at things with a little more openness. Jesus wasn’t a Greek, neither were any of His directly appointed Apostles.

    The Oriental mind understands many things differently.

    I find this to be so also when ministering in indigenous communities. They are far more aware of the spiritual realm, which is why they respond to God so well when the Holy Spirit is allowed to move amongst them, rather than religious form, which binds their culture even more than darkness.

    Calvinism is steeped in Greek thought, as are the European spin-off form of Christianity that have bound the Church for so long, which is why a restoration of the manifestations and gifts of the Spirit have been so vital. Dreams and visions are of God. If he gave them to the Church, then they must be important to us. Denying their vitality is sin and deception.

  46. The Greek mindset, I believe, developed from the ancient Asian mindset.

    His words have proved his mindset. Isn’t there a saying that goes ‘you are what you preach’?

    New Age.

  47. 1Peter 2:6-8 – “Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed. This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, the stone which the builders rejected, this became the very corner stone and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, AND TO THIS DOOM THEY WERE ALSO APPOINTED.”

    Look how God chose Jacob (and there was nothing deserving about Jacob) not Esau. People often just look at God’s choice and they forget about the fact that people that go to Hell will realize they fully deserve to be there. So God doesn’t “reprobate sinners randomly as a robot,” but sinners actually deserve it. In fact, we all deserved it.

    The wonder isn’t that God rejects anyone; the wonder is that God saves people because we all deserve to go
    to hell.

  48. Nonsense, s&p, there is a difference of thinking between those who operate on logic and reason alone and those who live by faith and in the Spirit. I’m sure you know that that is what I’m talking about. The carnal mind uses the Word devoid of the Spirit, and judges all things against the Word forgetting the Spirit, and not making allowance for the Spirit.

    Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

    1 Corinthians 2
    13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    The Greek mind is primarily reason based, so the focus is on the Word without the Spirit. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    So the miraculous, and spiritual and the impossible are relegated to the unreasonable, and therefore, to those who do not understand the workings of the Spirit, they are dispensed with, hence the cessationist movements.

    Cho sees things from an oriental background, but this doesn’t make him either a Buddhist, or a New Age witch, which would be the only epithet you could give to a New Age practitioner operating on this level of influence and power. If you say he has built a church on witchcraft, when in fact he has served Jesus, who has built it on the revelation that he is the Christ, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, then you are as guilty of blasphemy as the Pharisees who claimed Jesus drove out demons by Beelzebub.

  49. Dreaming accurately and practically?

    “MorningStar already has bought over 300 acres in the [Pores Knob, N.C.] community with moving its headquarters there from Charlotte. Joyner and his family moved to a house near the intersection of Price and Broyhill roads in late 1997 and there are plans to provide housing for 40 to 50 other families moving here with MorningStar … Joyner has said events leading to the move to the Pores Knob community began with a man in Kansas City dreaming Joyner moved to a place in North Carolina … The man also dreams Joyner would meet recording star Ricky Skaggs. A few weeks later, Joyner met Skaggs. … Skaggs is on the MorningStar’s board. … Joyner said he felt God was leading him to visit the Pores Knob section of Moravian Falls and he did so in 1989. … Joyner said it caught his attention when he learned that Moravian Falls was a center of newspaper publishing around the turn of the century and that one of the early newspapers was called The Morning Star.”

    http://www.pfo.org/r-joyner.htm

  50. He can believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and lead many to the Lord, but that doesn’t mean he’s let go of old mind-sets from his oriental background that he remains ignorant of.

    Obviously Jesus was the foundation of His ministries and He cares about salvation, but that does not mean some of his understandings of God are correct.

    It’s just amazing when leaven is left unnoticed how much it can actually manifest itself through time. If scholars are squeaking that some of the teachings of Cho’s ministry are dodgy and others join in with their concern, Cho should examine his material, repent and move on. His integrity stays in tact.

    He hasn’t.

    New. Age.

  51. I think Cho’s probably more concerned with how to Pastor 800,000 people than paying a whole lot of attention to people who think his ministry in New Age!

    You claim that Cho has a residue of some new age cultism, which, in his case, could only have been related to Buddhism, and yet his church, the fruit of his ministry, over a long period of time, has grown continually and exponentially as an Assemblies of God, yes, a Pentecostal church, where the vast majority of the members testify to being Christians, who have been baptised ion he name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, who testify to being born again, through faith in Jesus Christ, who speak in tongues, and where prayer in the name of Jesus is being continually offered up by thousands of members at any given time on their Prayer Mountain, and where the name of Jesus is held in very high esteem, where the Father is glorified in many ways, including in their worship services, in their preaching, in their teaching, where the Holy Spirit has full liberty to minister.

    For goodness sake, you think the power of the blood of Jesus is too weak and insignificant to cleanse the past away when we’re saved? That we have a some mysterious residue of cultism in us even after we’re born again, and accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour?

    So what were you involved in before you were saved? Surely that makes you cultish if it was anything other than genuine Christianity. Or did the blood of Jesus have the power to cleanse you of the past? Were old things passed away? Were you made a new creature in Christ?

    Your argument is ludicrous.

  52. Incidentally, if you read any of his material, you would know that Cho was influenced by American Missionaries, who did an amazing job in South Korea, and sowed the seeds for a move of God. He renounced Buddhism. He has never been New Age.

    However, I’ve rethought what you said about our heritage influencing our understanding of scripture, and I think, in fact, you may have a point.

    The Western mind, as I hinted earlier, is corrupted by Greek thinking and reason. It is facts-based, not faith-related. It is scientific, not spiritual. It legally driven, not Spirit-led. It cannot accept the supernatural as easily and freely as the Eastern and Oriental mindset often does.

    It tends to want to believe after it sees, rather than believe before it sees. It is serious flaw which needs to be rectified.

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