Prince Pulpit-Pimping & Pumping Prosperity

I’ve seen this man and his name circulate the web a few times now.

Joseph Prince runs New Creation Church in Singapore. And while it seems pentecostal/charismatic, they like to see themselves as non-denominational. After getting into an incredibly troubling argument with a member of his church, (and overcoming shock), I thought it might be worth doing a bit of a spill on him.

Go to his website: http://josephprince.org , and check out his video in the corner.

He creeped me out. He seems to spread fear, flatters the church, generalises truths from the bible and stretches their application. Scriptures I’ve seen him quote are often badly interpreted.

Prince has his own publishing house and produces books, CD’s and DVD’s in stores around his churches, bookshops around Singapore and the US. His latest is book is called ‘Destined to Reign: The Secret to Effortless Success, Wholeness and Victorious Living’.

He has spoken at a Hillsong seminar in 2006. He also spoke again at Hillsong Conference in 2007 and 2008, also in Hillsong Europe Conference, situated in London.

Thought this bit from wiki was interesting:

“In 2009, he was reported in The Straits Times to be earning in excess of SGD500,000 a year. During the same time period he was the Chairman of the church’s board while on the church’s payroll, an arrangement that was not in line with the revised and updated recommendations contained within the Code of Governance as objectivity and indepedence could be compromised issued by the Charity Council of Singapore on 26 November 2007, which encourages the separation of these two positions. The Church stated that it believed that the senior pastor being ‘ordained by God to lead the church…is the best person’ to head and guide the board.

The Commissioner of Charities (COC) has acknowledged that for religious charities, it is not always practical to “require the separation of spiritual leadership from leadership of the board”.”

After my odd conversation with my friend, before I even knew Prince – only one word crossed my mind as they preached at me as though I wasn’t a prosperous saved Christian: cult. They had me confused, condemned me on a number of occasions, played guilt guilt trips on me and then left me out to dry as ‘unreachable’. I got slaughtered.

They took great pride that New Creation Church was turning those that had revelations of ‘the tithe’ were producing into prosperous millionaires. And for me to be truly blessed, I needed to be truly seeking a revelation on the tithe so I can be blessed even MORE fully than what I am now.

From the Australian Christian Channel:

Joseph Prince: Destined To Reign

With more than two decades of full-time ministry behind him, Joseph Prince is today a leading voice in proclaiming the gospel of grace around the world through his teaching resources and television ministry. A highly sought-after conference speaker, Joseph has impacted church leaders internationally by preaching the unadulterated gospel of Jesus with boldness. He is known for teaching God’s Word in a fresh, practical and revelatory way that always unveils Jesus. His humorous, dynamic and engaging style of preaching has also endeared him to a wide spectrum of viewers who tune in to his daily television program, Destined To Reign. This broadcast currently reaches millions of homes across North America, Europe, Africa, Australia and Israel on both secular and Christian networks.

Joseph pastors New Creation Church in Singapore, and under his leadership, the church congregation has grown by more than a hundredfold — from about 150 to more than 19,000. Joseph believes the best in people and is committed to helping them discover how they can reign in life through the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. His desire is to help this generation of believers understand the new covenant of grace and realize how greatly blessed, highly favored and deeply loved they are by their heavenly Father.

For more information, visit http://www.josephprince.org

Speaker/Host Joseph Prince

Genre Preaching

Length 30 minutes

Web Site www.josephprince.org

Screening Times Monday 6:30, Tuesday 6:30, Wednesday 6:30, Thursday 6:30, Friday 6:30, Sunday 17:30

http://www.acctv.com.au/programdetail.asp?code=378

I’d be interested to see your thoughts on him and sharing what you know about him. He gives me the shivers! That poor I talked to – I don’t think I’ve met anyone so pride-filled and blind before ever. It was almost a comedy.

S&P


702 thoughts on “Prince Pulpit-Pimping & Pumping Prosperity

  1. From “Puritan Reformed” Daniel Chew (Singapore)

    “Joseph Prince vs. the Bible

    Due to the growing popularity of Singaporean home-grown “pastor” Joseph Prince, I have decided to read his book Destined to Reign, which is proving very difficult to read (difficult as in I feel utterly disgusted by it and am feeling very much like puking because of its unbiblical contents). Anyway, here is a VERY interesting quote:

    The bottom line is the Holy Spirit never convicts you of your sins (p. 134. Bold original)

    Ugh! According to Prince, this is in the context of believers after they have became Christians, not the world. Here is what the Scriptures teach:

    [To the Corinthian Christians who were celebrating sin] For even if I [Paul] made you grieve with my letter [1 Corinthians cf 1 Cor. 5:1-2], I did not regret it, for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while. As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. (2 Cor. 7:8-9)

    To this, we can add the case of Ananias and Sapphira (believers) who were literally “slain by the Spirit”, not to mention the numerous examples in the Old Testament and the Psalms.

    This is all for now. As it is, this statement has moved Prince to the arena of preaching not only a false “gospel”, but a false “Holy Spirit” and therefore a false “God”. Joseph Prince is therefore not a Christian, fulfilling 1 Jn. 2:19 and Jude 1:4 by his teaching.

    Joseph Prince vs. the Bible

    Due to the growing popularity of Singaporean home-grown “pastor” Joseph Prince, I have decided to read his book Destined to Reign, which is proving very difficult to read (difficult as in I feel utterly disgusted by it and am feeling very much like puking because of its unbiblical contents). Anyway, here is a VERY interesting quote:

    The bottom line is the Holy Spirit never convicts you of your sins (p. 134. Bold original)

    Ugh! According to Prince, this is in the context of believers after they have became Christians, not the world. Here is what the Scriptures teach:

    [To the Corinthian Christians who were celebrating sin] For even if I [Paul] made you grieve with my letter [1 Corinthians cf 1 Cor. 5:1-2], I did not regret it, for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while. As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. (2 Cor. 7:8-9)

    To this, we can add the case of Ananias and Sapphira (believers) who were literally “slain by the Spirit”, not to mention the numerous examples in the Old Testament and the Psalms.

    This is all for now. As it is, this statement has moved Prince to the arena of preaching not only a false “gospel”, but a false “Holy Spirit” and therefore a false “God”. Joseph Prince is therefore not a Christian, fulfilling 1 Jn. 2:19 and Jude 1:4 by his teaching.

    In Joseph Prince’s own words…..

    “I give thank for God for my roots in the Word of Faith teachings. It is truly on the shoulders of great men of God like Brother Kenneth E. Hagin that we are able to see further into the Word of God today. Growing up, I learned a lot about faith from Brother Hagin who truly had a special revelation of faith from the Lord. I deeply honor and respect him for all that he has taught me.”

    [Joseph Prince, Destined to Reign: The Secret to effortless success, wholeness and victorious living (Singapore: Joseph Prince Media, 2007), 271]

  2. Joseph Prince is an excellent minister of God who has built a wonderful, worshipping, generous, thriving, praying church of over 10,000 in a city where there is clearly revival taking place amongst all church groups.

    I first went to his church when he was at about 600 people a few years back. His message is excellent, and he has put hours of prayer into the ministry. He is very good teacher.

    Having said that, I’d probably be best to stay out of this, because I’ll get very annoyed with what s&p is saying. I do hope you’ll find something positive to say about someone soon, s&p.

    Joseph’s international recognition is recent, after at least 15 years building this church, having been sent out from Malaysia, but I know he prefers not to travel away from his church too much, and enjoys ministering to he people God has sent him to.

    He is good family man, Todd, with a young daughter.

  3. I don’t think anybody is speaking against Prince as a person, Faithlift. These posts are about the theology promoted by these ministries.

    By the way, on visting two of his websites, he heavily promotes himself. I find nothing particularly “masculine” with all those photos, in fact it seems to indicate a personal vanity, not “gayness”. And he obviously believes that what he teaches is correct because his foundations are based on the supposed success of Kenneth Hagin and Word 0f Faith teachings. Therefore that does put him in league with Kenneth Copeland.

    His own words betray his leanings and false doctrine.

    So I could take issue, as well, with PP’s use of C3 church as a platform to promote his “products”. But personally believe he’s a really nice guy.

  4. FL I don’t think there is a minister on earth who could doctrinally please all of us. We can’t even agree amongst ourselves. I would tend to agree with you and lean toward acknowledging the good things these people are doing. But I understand that the point of this blog is to discuss others doctrines for the benefit of our own. Therefore looking for points to discuss tends to drag up the negative.

    There does seem to be a grey area between discussing the doctrine and the person though. And I agree it could be helpful to occassionally discuss what we do like about peoples doctrines. But then some of us will disagree and bring up the negative anyway???

  5. s&p judges Joseph on the basis of an argument on doctrine with one of Joseph’s members.

    And then he puts up an article condemning his ministry having never heard him preach, based on Joseph’s Bio, which a member of staff would have put together anyway. I can tell you the people in his church love him, and when Singaporeans love their pastor they really do honour and respect them, unlike many Australians. I ahve been in this church several times. It is a gospel preaching, Jesus-loving, God-honouring church.

    Teddy trawls the net and drags up one critical message, as apparent proof of Joseph’s wackiness, and it’s claimed that this is merely discussing doctrine, not personality or looks, even though Todd thinks he looks gay, and Teddy thinks he looks effeminate in his photos. have you ever seen how amazingly well Singaporeans dress, anyone? They are immaculate. It’s cultural.
    •••••••••••••••••••

    Now I love s&p, even if I disagree with his attacks on godly people, but think for a while and imagine how that conversation with the Creation Church member probably went.

    Do you think s&p held back for one second?

    It sounds to me as if he pressed buttons and set off an alarm. It takes two to tango.

    And, if s&p was claiming to represent C3OF as his church, what did the other guy go away thinking of C3OF, I wonder?

  6. I don’t think there is anything to be gained by discussing a person’s appearance, unless it is the message they are trying to send by appearing a certain way, which is a valid topic.

    If I had my picture up here, I’d have been torn to shreds by various visitors long ago, regardless of what I look like!

  7. Wow, trawling! That is some statement! Researching and bible study on sound doctrine……hmmmm. Well, I’ll just call it casting the net and letting the Lord fill it!

    Any research is limited to areas that produce good fruit in and of themselves, FL.

  8. Saint (of the now defunct blog ‘dogfight at bankstown’) used to call it the Google God too!

    Trawling is casting a net and dragging in a catch. It’s appropriate for some methods of using the internet. Of course, what you pull out of the net should reflect a balanced view, but I find there is a tendency to draw on the article which proves a point.

    But, for the sake of peace, I’ll agree that your source was a result of research and bible study on sound doctrine. Was there an alternative perspective we could have looked at by way of balance?

    By the way, you said there was no personal attack, ie, ‘I don’t think anybody is speaking against Prince as a person’, yet, in the title of this piece s&p calls Joseph a pimp.

  9. I have just today discovered on the internet a Pentecostal church which would be worth a look if I lived nearby, which I don’t. Teddy & S&P – take a look at this, and see what you think (coming from C3 exposure).

    http://www.hnlc.org.au/

    I love this:

    “We believe there is only ONE CHURCH in our district, represented by many expressions of local fellowship. We are committed to growing primarily from evangelism, not by transfer, and enjoy a healthy relationship with many other churches in our area that are similarly committed to the Lordship of Christ and reaching the unchurched with the good news…”

  10. Also, the pastor has spoken out about his concerns re the Toronto Blessing, to the point where ministry opportunities for him dried up. He is still Pentecostal in practice though, but seems to feel Pentecostalism has been overtaken by these things. See:

    http://www.hnlc.org.au/rensford/toronto_blessing.htm

    It is lengthy, but interesting. S&P, you will find here references to Kundalini.

    While this article has been sitting on the internet for many years now, the author is mainly involved in overseas mission work, as well as ministry in his local church.

    Worth a look around, especially for those of us who are still Pentecostal or charismatic in our beliefs, but can’t attend most of the Pente churches we know comfortably these days.

  11. The other thing on their church website which I love, is:

    “Our Church members primarily see themselves as part of the Local Church of Jesus Christ, in the western side of Sydney. We believe Christ’s Local Church consists of every born again Christian in the local area, regardless of denominational affiliation. As such, we welcome, encourage, and support [in various practical ways] interaction with fellow believers, and churches, in our own area, as well as those from other places.

    We regularly receive ministry from other ministers, recognising our need for balance in church emphasis, activity, and teaching that such ‘outside’ ministry brings.”

    (from their ‘Introduction’ page)

    and this:

    “we are built on a relational model of Christian community, rather than performance model. Theologically, this is about sonship preceding servanthood… We do get to the doing stuff, yes – but the essence of our worth to God and one another is in the fact we are born of one and the same Spirit, and are equally valued by our heavenly Father, BEFORE we are differentiated by our God-given grace giftings. This deals a lot with the competitive spirit innate to our fallen nature.”

    (from their church family news page).

    They do teach tithing, but believe in giving anonymously.

    Anyway, just thought I’d put this up here as its positive, and perhaps encouraging for some of us with certain backgrounds to see.

  12. ARGH!!! I’ve been trying to find that ‘dogfight at bankstown’ article! There was a fantastic on there that I want to publish up here about preaching circuits.

    Do you have a copy of that Teddy? I think it’s well worth investigating and see if those money circuits have changed.

    I think Prince is in it now.

  13. “s&p judges Joseph on the basis of an argument on doctrine with one of Joseph’s members.”

    the conversation was one way on their behalf for the majority of the time. they made me wonder what type of church they went to. It was Joseph Prince’s church.

    1. He changed his name to Joseph Prince.
    2. In his promotion, he was like the Kubala’s – very self promoting – and seemingly vain and promoting his name more than Jesus’.
    3. I then visited his website and watched a few of his sermons. Flattery, vanity, prosperity and tithe among some nice comments about God’s grace. Of course he is going to preach grace – it’s a winner Facelift. But prosperity gospel is robbing himself and his congregation the benefits of the gospel of grace.

    Out of the overflow of his mouth, his heart speaks. He’s a schmuck! A very love-able guy that knows how to sooth-say.

    Facelift: “I can tell you the people in his church love him, and when Singaporeans love their pastor they really do honour and respect them, unlike many Australians.”

    One thing Prince and Yonngi Cho have as an advantage is the Asian culture where you do not question those above you. Phil Pringle has even once noted this cultural tendancy not to question authority and made a point to his congregation once in how that would be if that was also similar in Autralia.

    His congregation can only love Prince because he does a good job in making his congregation rely on him and be afraid of the world outside that will be shaken. (Watch his recent preach on his website!)

    “Teddy trawls the net and drags up one critical message, as apparent proof of Joseph’s wackiness, and it’s claimed that this is merely discussing doctrine, not personality or looks, even though Todd thinks he looks gay, and Teddy thinks he looks effeminate in his photos.”

    He’s a prosperity preacher Facelift. Watch his last preach on his website!

    “Have you ever seen how amazingly well Singaporeans dress, anyone? They are immaculate. It’s cultural.”

    And sometimes Paul says it’s good not to get up in cultural things. Paul would probably class him as a ‘Super Apostle’ in his letter to the Corinthian church – very vain, good looking, speaks well, expounds upon revelations upon revelations… Prince is an ornament who knows how to flatter – that gets you places. He’s what the greeks would know as ornament sophist. His appearance and his great words are more spectacular than the actual message itself.

    – – – – –

    “Do you think s&p held back for one second?”

    I actually did. They just spoke… and spoke… I was getting hit with a waterfall of words. Condemnation after condemnation. I didn’t know who he was and I didn’t even attack the person speaking to me.

    If I did press buttons, it probably would have been me saying something about the tithe – not the Prince or his church. This person made we want to found out more about him as it was apparent that they worshiped Prince and money – Jesus being the tool and formula to make it rich.

    I just let them talk and then after five minutes or so just lay it out with them.

    “And, if s&p was claiming to represent C3OF as his church, what did the other guy go away thinking of C3OF, I wonder?”

    I didn’t let them know what church I attend FaceLift. I did not think that would be an appropriate thing to do. Especially since they would see my name and face, see me involved in ministry there and see me talking about them here.

    Crap would fly!

  14. RP, in an earlier comment to Faithlift I pointed that there a lot of pentecostal churches (proudly so) in the States coming under the Reformed banner now.

    I’ve listened to quite a few Pastor’s Roundtable on the Iron Sharpens Iron radio programme with these various pastors and they are amazing dialogues. They are open to all the gifts including tongues and prophecy, but because they hold to a truly biblical test of same, there’s a lot less “babble”and a lot more order.

    Because I am not a cessationist, just don’t believe what is operating in most pentecostal churches locally, is truly a gift of the Holy Spirit, particularly tongues (the group shout-out without interpretation)etc, I’m not at all surprised to hear that there are churches like the one you mention here in Australia.

  15. Not identical, and perhaps with more clearly delineated responses to current events/church cultures though.

  16. Have you listened to any of his messages, s&p? You seem to have a very educated opinion of what he teaches.

    There’s a difference, a vast difference, between honouring your pastor because you love him in the Lord, and being afraid to disagree with anything he says. You turned around what I said to mean something completely different.

    Preaching grace is in line with what Paul preaches, but I know for a fact he preaches far more than this. However, he is known for it, because he teaches it so well. If more Christians understood grace, they would have less trouble. I have read you on grace at times when you are actually saying something sensible and positive, and it is practically identical teaching.

    Most Indians and many Orientals change their name when they are converted. Is there a problem with this?

    ‘…sometimes Paul says it’s good not to get up in cultural things. Paul would probably class him as a ‘Super Apostle’ in his letter to the Corinthian church – very vain, good looking, speaks well, expounds upon revelations upon revelations… Prince is an ornament who knows how to flatter – that gets you places. He’s what the greeks would know as ornament sophist. His appearance and his great words are more spectacular than the actual message itself.’

    Those are the words of a first class religious snob in my opinion. I hope you’ll reconsider what you’ve said.

    How can Joseph help what he looks like? Should he have some of the boys come around and mangle up his face so he looks more like the picture of preacher you have? That’s Joseph. He has a smile that would melt anyone. He cant help that. Some people are born like this, and are a blessing, not a curse!

    You probably have a great smile too, hidden away under that gruff exterior, which is so displeased with how the Body of Christ is performing. Perhaps you should use it more often, and you’d get better results, and people wouldn’t have a go at you so often. Disarm them with joy and a good report, which is completely different to what you all flattery, and see their faces light up with anticipation of a good outcome, which is hope.

    Singaporeans dress up to honour God. It’s fun for them, and they really look great. They are all like movie stars, even the ones who go to evangelical churches, and Catholic churches, and not just on Sunday when they go to church, they look like this all the time, when they go to work, when they relax. What are you saying? They should all dress like slobs and they they are real?

    I go into Asia quite a bit, and it is the same even in poor nations. The Philippinos look fantastic. As do the Indonesians. I’ve been in some dusty old villages, where it is difficult to stay clean for long, but still they manage to look great. Their children are immaculate. They may be as poor as can be, but somehow they manage to look like a million dollars. It’s not pride. It’s not religious. It’s who they are and part of how they worship God.

    We have some African people who come to our church, refugees from war-torn nations. They look incredible in their national dress.

    I can’t understand why there is an emphasis on this.

    Preaching prosperity isn’t a sin. Not to God anyway. I know he has a balanced message in this area.

    So far you’ve called this godly man a pimp and a schmuck, and you don’t even know him. I’m trying to help you see the best in a person, but you only see the worse.

  17. Looking back over comments, just wondering how my remark on Prince’s photos not being particularly masculine, became me calling him “effeminate”?

    There’s just a sense of “vanity”, that’s my judgement call. These churches seem to elevate the leader more than Christ, even unwittingly.

    I have said in the past that on the C3 website PP’s name is mentioned more than Christ.

  18. For the very anti-John Macarthur C3 “pastor” out there, his books along with R C Sproul and Mark Driscoll are now being sold at C3 bookstore!!! The old Reformation is gaining ground.

  19. We have a bookstore attached to our church, and their books are sold there too, including McArthur’s. My wife bought me Viola & Barna book on Pagan Christianity to read. Doesn’t mean they’re right about everything, just that we, like C3 have an open policy to the literature that is sold.

  20. I know from personal contact, that Change is bringing in reformed theology/thinking and I praise God for that. So it’s not just in the bookstore.

  21. One of the reasons why I have tremendous admiration for Josh Kelsey (apart from the unfortunate pushing of the tithe mesage).:)

  22. This is from Pastor Prince’s website

    “A founding member of New Creation Church, Pastor Prince initially served as an elder and associate pastor. However, his unanimous appointment as senior pastor in 1990 marked a turning point in the history of the church, which started experiencing phenomenal growth. Under Pastor Prince’s leadership, the church congregation has grown by more than a hundredfold — from about 150 to more than 20,000.

    Having built and established the leadership and congregation of New Creation Church on the sure foundation of Jesus Christ, Pastor Prince is now actively fulfilling, around the world, the mandate that God has given him to preach God’s unmerited favor without compromise.”

    http://josephprince.org/About_Joseph_And_Wendy.html?active=about

    It seems to be a bit contradictory that his main message is about “God’s unmerited favor” when the paragraph before that seems to attribute church growth to the merits of Prince’s leadership.

  23. Teddy,
    ‘Sorry Faithlift, didn’t mean to be rude!’

    That’s OK. I discerned that! 🙂

    Wazza2,
    Be nice!

    You know exactly what they mean.

    I believe Joseph was under another, older Pastor who saw his merits and invited him to become Senior Pastor, which was a great thing to do. That elder remained with the church through the growth, giving Joseph a sound advisor, and he has a solid board of elders around him.

    If you’re claiming that leadership under God has nothing to do with church development you are not being serious.

    This has been the most ridiculous put down of a solid ministry I have ever seen, apart, perhaps from most of the fluff on groupsects, that is.

  24. Well church growth is presumably given as evidence of God’s favor to Joseph. The question is was this favour merited or unmerited?

    If it was unmerited then why are they giving a big spiel about Joseph’s qualities?

    If it was merited then are there two types of God’s favor (unmerited and merited)?

  25. Here is a real life illustration of how God’s unmerited grace, along with his servant’s God-given leadership abilities brings exponential growth.

    Whitfield preached the unmerited favour of God to as many people as Wesley, and saw as many salvations as a result, and the revivals which spanned from their ministries went on.

    But it was Wesley who organised people into small groups and churches, and it was through these small groups that the majority of people were saved.

    Variations of the Methodist Church go on to this day, and millions have been saved.

    That is how leadership continues a move of God even after the servant has gone on to be with the Lord.

  26. Facelift: “Have you listened to any of his messages, s&p? You seem to have a very educated opinion of what he teaches.”

    I wouldn’t have had an opinion on his teachings Facelift if I hadn’t heard him. I listened to his recent one. My prejudices and unease on the man proved correct. Just in case I may have gotten one dodgy one out of many good one’s I listened to another three and a half elsewhere. One was alright, but flattery seemed to be his main teacher in it – it grossed me out honestly. Found the same in the other ones with shocking exegesis, twisted scripture and an exaltation of members in his church and an exaltation of the… (you’ll never guess)… TITHE! The gospel was hardly present. When he preached grace – it was more situated on flattery, pleasure and hedonism than a solid gospel message.

    I could listen to more, but I’m already over the soothsaying – it’s the equivalent of hypnotism. It’s really creepy.

  27. I will let people decide what people think of Jospeh Princes teaching. Check some of them out on Facebook here:

    http://www.facebook.com/page.jpm

    Maybe I just managed to pick the only four dodgy sermons out there on the web. I didn’t mind some of these sings said on Facebook.

  28. And the Upper Room church is an AWESOME Grace church Muppet. I highly recommend that church to anyone.

    Bare in mind it is an emergent church – I do not know where that movement is going. But this church seems to be going well in spite of some of the emergent churches dodgy teachers, wanting to make a name for themselves.

  29. “But this church seems to be going well in spite of some of the emergent churches dodgy teachers, wanting to make a name for themselves.”

    maybe some emergent leaders try to make a name for themselves, but my major issue with major emergent types is that they’re denying core doctrines, guys like Brian Mclaren say that there are other ways to be saved than through the blood of Christ, that sin is nothing personal but systemical or structural (like classism, racism, sexism, etc.). That God is always accepting, affirming (dare I say empowering) not correcting, warning, and yes, in cases also punishing. These guys would love to read The Message as their preferred bible because it tells readers that sin does not separate men from God (Romans 8,35), so sin away my lad, and God still we get you home in the end.

    They also deny the inspired, timeless, revealed nature of scripture (Rob Bell argues that way in his book “Velvet Elvis”), and I could make the list much longer but its really sickening.

    Yes, there are churches and leaders who have an emergent approach to how church connects with people and communities without changing the content and nature of gospel, but I fear that a major part of the movement has the postmodern epistemology at its core and read scripture right through this lens or filter.

    The real joke is, that none of this stuff is new or revolutionary (despite what the emergent folks try to tell), all such teachings were denounced as heretic long ago, but are reappearing again these days.

  30. The Church has been full of imperfections and incorrect teaching since its inception. The Body continues to grow however and moves towards maturity and unity.

    How are we supposed to engage with such imperfection? We’re a living part of this Church, we / God must be doing something right. I wish I knew what it was, the tape series would make a motsa!!!

  31. “Bare in mind it is an emergent church – I do not know where that movement is going.” – S&P

    I thought that Greg the Explorer put a post up with a graph in it that showed quite well that the ’emergent church’ isn’t a movement, but a variety of churches with different positions in a broad spectrum. There aren’t necesssarily common denominational grounds between two separate churches defined by others as ’emerging’. Some might even call our blog an emerging church expression.

    So I’d have a look at the church itself before worrying about an ’emergent’ label.

    **************

    “How are we supposed to engage with such imperfection?”

    Sounds like a good new post…

  32. s&p, the original post here is as much about you as it is Joseph Prince, in fact, mostly about you, how you were ‘slaughtered’, and ‘creeped out’, and you never mentioned Jesus once. The gospel was not preached at any time. Therefore you are a cult!

    I think I’ll leave you to your prejudice before I step over the line from being calm!

  33. FL regarding Whitfield and Wesley – What happend to all the people that got saved under Whitfield’s ministry. Did they all die or back slide and that was just the end of it?

    Did this all happen outside of God’s plan?

  34. No, Muppett, but Wesley’s organisation of converts actually empowered them to become the soul winners, as well as than the evangelist.

  35. “S&P, the original post here is as much about you as it is Joseph Prince, in fact, mostly about you, how you were ’slaughtered’, and ‘creeped out’, and you never mentioned Jesus once. The gospel was not preached at any time…”

    I kind’a had to talk about that – because that is how I found out about him. I would say his ‘produce’ reflected his teachings very well.

    I did open it up for people to talk about it too. Cults would never do this! 🙂

  36. Muppet and Faithlift – here’s a great dialogue between Whitfield and Wesley. I love this, they are such gentlemen and Welsey preached at Whitfield’s funeral (at his request!)……we can learn something in this.

    Whitfield says:-

    “I am very well aware what different effects publishing this letter against the dear Mr. Wesley’s Sermon will produce. Many of my friends who are strenuous advocates for universal redemption will immediately be offended. Many who are zealous on the other side will be much rejoiced. They who are lukewarm on both sides and are carried away with carnal reasoning will wish this matter had never been brought under debate.

    The reasons I have given at the beginning of the letter, I think are sufficient to satisfy all of my conduct herein. I desire therefore that they who hold election would not triumph, or make a party on one hand (for I detest any such thing)—and that they who are prejudiced against that doctrine be not too much concerned or offended on the other.

    Known unto God are all his ways from the beginning of the world. The great day will discover why the Lord permits dear Mr. Wesley and me to be of a different way of thinking. At present, I shall make no enquiry into that matter, beyond the account which he has given of it himself in the following letter, which I lately received from his own dear hands:”

    London, August 9, 1740
    My dear Brother,
    I thank you for yours, May the 24th. The case is quite plain. There are bigots both for predestination and against it. God is sending a message to those on either side. But neither will receive it, unless from one who is of their own opinion. Therefore, for a time you are suffered to be of one opinion, and I of another. But when his time is come, God will do what man cannot, namely, make us both of one mind. Then persecution will flame out, and it will be seen whether we count our lives dear unto ourselves, so that we may finish our course with joy. I am, my dearest brother,
    Ever yours,

    J. WESLEY

  37. It’s the example of Whitfield and Wesley that gives me confidence we can differ and still remains friends, Teddy!

  38. 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
    Imagine Prince’s hair and face on an emoticon.
    They’d look really good!
    🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

  39. Joseph Prince could never match up to the evangelistic efforts of the real Prince, the purple one, love-symbol, the artist formerly known as…

    His concert in 2000 with Lenny Kravitz where he performed “The Christ” was one of the most spiritual concerts I have ever witnessed.

    Plus he is a JW, so we dont have to go on and on wondering if he is Calvanist or Arminian to check out if he’s kosher.

  40. We’ve got to be very careful because the cheap grace people they say “Oh if you confess your sin, you’re sin-conscious, you’re condemnation-conscious”.

    Now another thing that cheap-grace people say, they always stress on their position of righteousness, “oh you know I’m righteous, you’re already fully righteous, righteousness is a gift we know. “ But then they go one step further they say “Holiness is also a position. So the moment you are saved you are perfectly holy, you are perfectly righteous” So they say “Holiness is a gift given to you”. So you don’t need to discipline your flesh, you don’t need to crucify the flesh.

    So this Pastor in Singapore says “If you want to be holy, just get the holy man to lay hands on you and the holiness will come upon you”. And this man taught this in the church. I have the tapes to prove it. He said “If you are a wife and your husband is not saved, so this is how you sanctify your husband. You lay hands on his pillow when he sleeps, your holiness will pass to him. Next morning when he wakes up your husband is totally holy.” How ridiculous is that?

  41. I don’t know many people who know what righteousness actually means. It actually means ‘right standing with God’.

    BUT – He made us right-standing with Him. Righteousness is Him having a relationship with us. Therefore, Righteousness is not only a gift, He’s a Person keeping us in Him, ready to guide us and to teach us how to correct our mistakes!

    Righteousness is more than morals.

  42. Hi, I watched this guy once – waited for a while as he weaved his magic and used his neoliberal prosperity theology and neurolinguistic programming to “(ad)minister” subtle condemnation, then came the King Hit – sorry, the Principality, when he very neatly put his proselytes under the Law – how sad – MUST BE JUST WHAT THEY WANT. They seek prophets after their own hearts – that is how the system works.

    That serpent of OLD – he can’t help but show his hand to those who understand.

    OK, so here is a pop quiz:

    Why did Jesus come into the world? 6 words or less.
    What is/was the gospel of Jesus? 8 words or less.
    What is the foundation of our faith? 2 words or less.

    About 99 out of a hundred Christians cannot answer these three questions – and that is why their witness is so limp – fortunately, enough understand and do by nature that which is right and so become a law unto themselves.

    Here is a clue for you all – the foundation of our faith is the Resurrection (not the CROSS of TAMMUZ!)

    0(:->)

    But God wants that this light should shine in the face of them who serve His name.

  43. OK – so the other two are:

    To bring light into the world.

    Repent, the kingdom of God is at hand.

    I Am the RESURRECTION and THE LIFE.

    Last question, does Jesus have a cross on His back?
    Think about it – walking in the victory of Jesus is walking in the Power of the Resurrection. OK, so where are his mitracles???

    All who come before Me are liars and thieves and false shepherds. Deception insulates the mind from the Truth – it is hard to see with the wool pulled over your eyes and your emotions manipulated.

  44. “Why did Jesus come into the world? 6 words or less.”
    To save sinners: you, me, world.

    “What is/was the gospel of Jesus? 8 words or less.”
    Jesus IS the Gospel: The WORLD’s completely forgiven!

    “What is the foundation of our faith? 2 words or less.”
    Jesus. (1) or Jesus Christ. (2)

    A more correct statement would be: The revelation that Jesus Christ is Lord and God bringing His unfailing goodness and love to a world so desperate for mercy, grace and pardon.

    “Last question, does Jesus have a cross on His back?”
    Only the marks of the last one he left behind.

    Bless you Ian for knowing the gospel that keeps you free! Free others in Jesus name!

  45. Yes you are right – He is the GOSPEL – He is the POWER OF GOD – but what most christians do not understand is that it is the RESURRECTION which is the foundation of faith – and that ALL died in Him, and ALL were resurrected in Him. Or a He said to me, “Ian, there is no us and them, there is only us, it is just that some of them do not know it yet.”

    Jesus came to bring light into the world – to those who believe it will light our path, to those who reject the light, it blinds them, and their blind guides lead them into a ditch where they get taught wrong doctines, and so, not even truly comprehending the fundamentals of faith, they either fail miserably or become witches, or worse still, become complacent in their own righteousness.

    Paul wrote (from the VA Aramaic Trans):

    14. The grace of our Lord, however, was augmented in me, and likewise the faith and love of Jesus Christ.
    15. Faithful is that Manifestation and deserving is He to be received, that Jesus Christ came to the universe (world) to bring back to Life sinners, of whom I am a prime example.

    So, was Paul the chiefest example of sinners, or a prime example of the saving faith and grace of Jesus toward all men?

    The Son of Man was made manifest to destroy the works of darkness by bringing the Light of Life – the glory of God, but He was rejected, despised and abandoned – but He rose again in the Power of the resurrection – the Power that raises the dead to life.

    Since then, many have believed, but the world has NEVER truly received the witness of Jesus Christ such that the whole world will see – this will soon change when he comes again in clouds of glory to finish the job He started.

    Have a look in W E Vine’s as to the words cross and crucify – and don’t be alarmed – there is a very simple answer.

    I cannot free others – that is the job of Jesus, all I can do is manifest His grace at His will. Read Rev 13:7, 17:17 and Romans 11:32.

    No man comes to Jesus unless he is drawn by the same.

    I cannot set anyone free, I can only make them twice the child of Gehenna as me. All who come before Jesus, Joseph Prince included, are liars and thieves – by their fruits you shall know them. Free wll always ends in pig swill – it is a FREED WILL we need – and the only truly FREED WILL is HIS! Change your way of thinking, the kingdom is at hand.

    Paul gave the pattern of the proclaimer in Acts 20 – he never preached anything concerning monetary or pecuniary gain, he warned of wolves and those who would rise up from among you. drawing some after themselves, and he worked with his own hands to support his own. he suffered hardship and trials as a true Apostle of the Hope of the Kingdom – he did not live in luxury nor build 333 million dollar mausoleums to a dead religion.

    Ask Jesus to show you how much of what is called Church is Pagan Icons (I-cons, eye-cons?), and is mingled with Jewish fables and myths perpetuated largely through the Masonic interface.

    Positivism and dominionism are Babylonian, not Bible.

    The hardest part of this Pilgrim’s Progress is the removing of the scales to see the sheer extent of corruption in the Church, starting with the very name of it – being derived from Circe – the goddess who bewitched men by her preparations and incantations – sound like someone familiar – like she who sits as a Queen?

    Jesus Christ is the answer, but Christ-Church is an oxymoron, I should know, I live there! Christchurch, New Zealand, that is…where the Son of Man will make His entrance…soon…but first the world needs to do some sty time…even Joseph Prince…I am sure his megachurch will house many homeless when he that restraineth is removed and the devil’s mob collapse the economy and start a war to kill a third part of men…God is already calling His people out of Babylon…as the intercessors are removed the whole house of cards will fall…what do you think that 777 point fall on the Dow was about..?

    Jesus said to me last year, “Ian, when you have truly laid down your life, you will look up to everone.”

    Even Joseph Prince – but I will never bow my knee to Baal, which begs the question, does his church face due east so that the rising sun falls on the altar?

    And many shall come IN MY NAME saying, I AM!

    Are they saying “I Am” or “He is”? Be very careful what you join or partner in agreement with – ask Jesus to set you free.

    0(:->)

  46. But that was more than 6 words, Ian!

    When we try to formalise the gospel, or turn in into a formula, you know we have missed the point.

    Who cares if you can put it into 6 words? The point is that it’s the power of God unto salvation for those who believe.

    The point is that we actually preach it to the unsaved, in love, and with their interests at heart.

  47. Actually, the point is that HE IS THE POWER OF GOD. The good news is THE POWER OF GOD – THE POWER OF GOD (Jesus) is the good news. It is not the GOOD NEWS which is the power – a point of understanding which has resulted in people elevating the Bible to the second person of the Godhead and referring to IT as the Word of God. This then opens the door to all sorts of misunderstanding.

    The Circe and the doctrines thereof are so sullied with the leavening of the Pharisees that it is a testimony to the faith and patience of Jesus that anyone is saved. I will try and put in perspective for you. I used to sit under a WOF Pastor, who knew the bible better than anyone I knew. He was an Haganite, Copelandite, and any other ite – he read voraciously on positivisma and dominionism and such and preached tithing.

    He had been suffering with a nasty disease and was holding out for healing. One night his wife asked me to pray for him, so I prayed God’s will over him and that night, I dreamed of his passing. I saw him in a dark place, wrathe with indignation, he looked like someone had just taken all his toys. In the morning I asked Jesus why he showed me such a thing (I have been walking this out for many years – been to heaven a number of times – raised the dead – healed the sick – got sinners saved – all that cool stuff).

    I heard this – “He has just found out that NEARLY EVERYTHING THAT HE KNOWS IS WRONG!” I was shocked.

    A few months later, I saw him again, and this time he was smiling like a cherub – I knew his correction was complete. But about two weeks after his passing, I asked Jesus again why He had shown me that image, and I sensed that there were still more things to be dealt with in me, so yet again I laid it all on the altar.

    It is my experience that while love covers for the multitude of sins, that the reason why the gospel of Jesus is not ministered in POWER (the kingdom of God is in POWER, not word), is that most Christians are all messed up with the cross and hell and other such Catholic nonsence, and burdened by Pharisees, and simply do not get what the resurrection is about. They use the way of the Monster, not he Way of the Master, to try and persuade people.

    Greed for gain is the root of all evil – and no one demonstrates this quite like Jews and Christians – the world is in the state it is because we have not kept the message pure and undefiled. God gets stuff done more in spite of us, rather than because of us.

    The whole world is heading for a pig sty experience – and when people are writhing in the dust, they will cry out to God, “What must we do to be saved?”

    Your salvation and election was set before the foundations of the worlds. Be brave, ask Jesus (honestly now) to show you all the false doctrines you have picked up along the way and to remove them.

    There is a NEW revelation of Jesus coming – it will be the End Time Revelation of Jesus Christ as Savior of the Whole World – the personification of LOVE – it will involve people ‘getting’ the resurrection and forsaking the icon of the cross. To show you how messed up your undertstanding is, look up the Greek word for Cross in the New Testamant – it is STAUROS – pronounce stavros – it means STAKE – as in TREE.

    Therefore take up (Gk: aero) your STAKE daily – following Jesus is not carrying a cross, it is walking in the resurrection.

    My message is to those who look at Church and wonder what on earth is going on…to the lost sheep of the Israel of the Spirit.

    The POWER OF GOD IS A HE, not an it, and that is why most ‘gospel’ is without power, and is merely another gospel of persuasive or smooth words and emotionial levers and appeals, combined with the fear of hell.

    Take the challenge, ask Jesus to show you all that you know which is not so – but which appears to be so. Do it daily – it is FUN! You have nothing to lose…and all you will lose is NOTHING! 0(:->)

  48. Hey guys – I am minded to recount what happened to me when Katrina came to town. I had heard through a Kim Clement prophecy that a hurricane would hit New Orleans. When my son told me that a hurricane was headed that way, I assumed that this was the fulfillment of that. He suggested that I should look it up on the computer and I heard a hint of Holy Spirit in his voice and did so after work when everyone else had gone. We are 17 hrs ahead of New Orleans.

    I was directed to look up Reuters, where I saw a video of a small truck with reporters and cameramen on the back was approached by a shabbily dressed white woman, pleading to the cameras, “Please pray for us, O dear God pray for us!” Her words literally came out of the computer and gripped my heart and would not let go, and her need became so compelling – I was shocked at my indifference and immediately repented and asked what I should do, if anything.

    Immediately I was in the Spirit – the room had disappeared and I was seated in the heavenlies, above the storm, in the glory cloud of the Lord.

    I heard this, “Command the storm to dissipate and to turn to the right.” As I did, I could see that in the Spirit, the storm was comprised on heaving, writhing, malevolent spirits – it was an amazing thing to behold. I asked what this was and heard, “These are the spirits of those who have called this into being.” Then immediately I was back.

    In the morning, I was awoken at 7:30 by the Holy Spirit telling me to go to CNN and see what happened. The storm had rapidly diminished in severity and had turned to the right. I asked after Biloxi and He said, “That has nothing to do with you” – I asked why the people of New Orleans had not had a total deliverance and heard “It was according to their faith”.

    Since then I have been taught much by Jesus about the way in which the faith of Christians has been highjacked by men whose minds are given over to devils but who inhabit churches – the wolves Paul warned about. They use partnering and doctines of devils to create believer Bot-Nets – they harvest the faith of people and direct it.

    I asked again recently why New Orleans, and why the Oil spill? I was minded to read up on the Jewish community in the city, particularly their response to attempts by Zionists to impose themselves upon them, and to see what the Talmud has to say about Black people and to contrast it with the warmth and regard the Jewish people of New Orleans have for the Black people.

    The Jewish community of New Orleans rejected Zionism because they understood that the people of God are to return to the Land AFTER Messiah has returned.

    Please read carefully this text from Romans 11, the VA Aramaic Version, especially verses 25, 32 and 36.

    25. I wish for you to know, my brethren, this sermon, so that you may not be set in your own opinions, that the blindness of heart affects a small portion of Israel, until there has entered all the nations in their entirety.
    26. And then all Israel Lives, as it is written in Scriptures,

    “There shall come from Zion a Savior
    and he shall take away the abomination from Jacob.
    27. “And then they shall receive the Covenant from me,
    When thus their sins are forgiven.”

    28. Through the Revelation of God then, they are enemies because of you. And through Election they are beloved because of the ancestors.
    29. For God does not renege on His endowments and calling.
    30. For whereas you also were not in communion with God from the beginning, and now you are consecrated because of their estrangement,
    31. Thus they also did not recognize now the mercies shown you, so as there would be mercies upon them too.
    32. For God combined all human beings in non-communion, so that He may be merciful to every human being.

    33. Oh, the depth and wealth and wisdom and knowledge of God, that no human being can wipe out their debt and follow on the heels of his ways.

    34. “For who understands the Omniscience of the Lord?
    Or who can be His councilor?
    35. “And who first gave him righteousness and received it back from him?”
    36. For all is from him and everyone is through him and everything is in his hands,
    To him glory and blessing, to [the end of] the universe, of all the universes, amen.
    0(:->)

  49. More and more its all about the money. Show me the men of God who manifest the example of Paul – who worked with his own hands to provide for him and those with him! He never took up an offering except that it was for someone else – he never preached concerning gold or fine clothing or material gain. Acts 20 is the yardstick I use for “ministers” – it is quite unequivocal on the matter as to who is what and how things ought to be. And don’t fall for that need to be busy for Jesus stuff – the most influential minds of the last 2000 years were at the time hounded, harried, hated – they wrote from prisons and the whole world heard them. It is because we, as a people, have chosen the love OF money over the love OF God – Mammon has its enducements – it is a prostitute – it offers its “love” at a price. Babylon. The Love of God is the wellspring of all that is good – but the love OF money (as distinct from the love for money) is the root of every evil – note root – as in out of the ground – earthly, sensual, devilish.

    In the Aramaic, the idiom is “Money’s compassion” or money’s love. Moneylove is a God – it is a counterfeit of grace – it has a voice – it has an identity – it speaks to you all the time in many ways through propaganda, and through the lust of the eyes. Paul said that they who wish to be wealthy fall into a snare and become demonized. Jesus warned the Laodiceans that they said they were rich and had all that they were poor, blind, naked and demonized.

    But have faith, for no man comes to the Father except by Jesus – for all died in Him and all were resurrected to newness of life in Him – that is when the transaction was made – a lamb slain – from before time – this is a mystery. He ever stands before the Father for us – even when we contradict Him, He contradicts us by continuing to speak the TRUTH over us – that is how He told me He denies or contradicts us – we lie – He tells the Truth – he can do no other for He cannot contradict Himself – He is the Truth.

    Why did God manifest Himself and take the blame, the accountability for Mankind at Calvary? Because creation was HIS idea – Newsflash: You did not think you up, nor did your parents – me clay – HE potter – you are potty to think otherwise.

    God just wants His children to learn to love the way that he does and to get to know Him as he really is – LOVE. He is dead set against religious bigotry and the traditions of men. He wants us to become mature, to be made perfect in love – then we shall know, even as we are known – then you have the promise of 1 Corinthians, to have the Mind of Christ, to know even the deep things of God.

  50. Mixed messages cause those seeking grace to become ensnared by men. I once though that freedom was being offered by these messengers of light, but I found much to my cost that their’s was just a more refined imprisonment. It is the TRADITIONS OF MEN which make the WORD of no effect in our lives. I suggest that anyone serious about the Truth would do well to read Gary Amirault’s article on “Circe, the daughter of the Sun.” Google it.

    Religion baits the hook with just enough truth to conceal the barb. It bears considering how that Jesus chose His disciples yet one was a devil (accuser), and we so readily forget that one was a satan (adversary), and it was this satan, who was often pulled up by Paul, and who screwed up continually because of his bullying, politicised ways, who founded what was to become the Catholic church. This is a hard saying to comprehend, you need to get it by revelation or it won’t make sense.

    Once you realise that what is commonly called Church is just the religion of Babylon, but that this is the very whore which is to be made a bride, then you can see the bigger picture. That this mingling or mixture of spirit and flesh is evident is obvious and is why so many have left – and soon God will strike the shepherds and even now He is withdrawing His PRESENCE from even churches which were once vibrant.

    The withdrawing of the waters will find out those whose faith was not real, but it also presages a wave of the Spirit which will encompass the globe. There is a reformation coming – soon – on a huge scale. It will split the church down the centre, and it will be a type or shadow of the Sword separating Spirit and flesh.

    Don’t be fooled by “niceness” – it is the calling card of the Pharisee.

    From the Pope the Prince – it is all the same family tree of Christendom – and soon it will yield its spore and then die, for it is already dead except for the Tree of Life – the life of the tree – which is in the midst of the garden. You are like a tree – your body is deadwood but your spirit – Christ – is living sap. Coming out from among her is metaphorical – you have to separated, circumcised in your heart, from the whore of your flesh. The flesh is the Beast.

  51. …but of course, we are to know NO (or any) MAN after the flesh…but rather after the Spirit…only the Word can rightly divide…but don’t be children…tossed too and fro…if someone tells you that you have to give to God in order to get…or if they tell you that you need a better self image…or if they tell you that you need to love yourself or forgive yourself…or tithe…then you are listening to a religious satan…for is it any wonder that if the enemy may appear as an messenger of light…that his servants may appear as ministers of righteousness?

  52. Who do you think the “Her” we are to come out of is? I too used to be a raving Pente – until God showed me that I did not know squat, I just thought that I did.

    Back in 1999, my wife told me that she had met a New Jesus, one who was not like the Jesus I had demostrated or championed – one who was loving and kind and understanding. I thought that she had lost it and was listening to devils – so I asked internally what should I do? I heard, “Get her into agreement” and the words came to me – “Let’s just agree that whosoever will hear whatsoever they need to and that by the Spirit of God.” She was reluctant at first but then I assured her of my intentions.

    I thought that I was setting her up for correction, but the next morning I was awoken at 4:30am by Jesus standing next to my side of the bed. He told me, “Ian, you do not know me, you just think that you do, and I Am going to reveal Myself to you as I really Am.” Last year I asked Him to distil the essence of what He has been teaching me these last 10 or so years, and He said, “It is like this Ian; there is no us and them, there is only us, it is just that some of them do not realise it yet.”

  53. Question: Is your body the temple of God?

    Or, is THE TEMPLE OF GOD YOUR BODY?

    The Body of Christ is that which is forever in the heavens, and not made with hands. The world is full of the Bethels of Baal – I know – I used to be a preacher and worship leader. Before the last time I preached in a fellowship a few years ago, as I sat in the back and awaited my call, I began to weep uncontrollably, sobbing deeply – I asked Jesus what was happening – He said that He was mourning their unbelief thru me. These people were the cutting edge of church in our city – yet they were burdened by unbelief thru their unforgiveness.

    I could barely stand to minister as I instructed them by the Spirit to close their eyes and let God show them their filing system – their accounts they held over others – it had come to me initially and personally as a Rolodex – and to many of them too. Ask Him to show you your own files, you may well be surprised.

    When I prayed for these folk, I was instructed to have no catchers and to not lay hands on them at all, but to let the anointing do the works.

    Every single person was slain in the Spirit, the anointing building in intensity as i aproached the last one in the prayer line, the pastor. I spun around on my heels and threw what felt like an unseen medicine ball of POWER at him, from about 5ft away, which hit him in the midriff and sent him back another 6ft and left him sitting on the floor, arms and legs akimbo like a rag doll, giggling like a child – but God was not laughing, nor is He mocked.

    The next day he excitedly spoke of the amazing anointing of POWER – until I told him of the real meaning of the exercise and the reason why it happened and of their unbelief which God wanted dealt with. That was the end of my welcome. My friend has become an acolyte of Kenneth, Creflo and others. Anyone who wants to see through this mess might likem to visit KennethCoplandBlog, and Google ‘Copeland Mason’. He is a grifter, as are most of them – read Acts 20 for Paul’s definition of a servant of God – not many who are in the pulpit stack up.

    As has been observed, Christianity started out in Jerusalem as a bride, became a philosophy in Greece, a culture in Europe, and in America, a business – and when a bride becomes a business it is called a whore.

    I am more than happy to communicate on a personal level with anyone who is looking at Circe and wondering just what the hell is going on and why the Spirit is leaving the churches – as in ichabod – but please, no Christian witches – just agree with me as per the prayer above, that whosoever will hear whatsover they need by the Spirit of God and by is mercy and grace – OK?.

    viasollertia@paradise

  54. You may not subscribe to certain tenets of WOF twisted theology but you are evidently still in lock-step with the false teachers you are dissing – and certainly no less full of sh*&…

    “medicine ball of POWER” – your just a nob!

  55. I see that you do not suscribe to “love one another as I have first loved you” so I guess that it is the Law of sin and death for you.

    For what it is worth, I have seen Jesus personally in manifestation many times – I have experienced His love such that I had to ask Him to stop lest I die from the sheer glory and love. He looks like pretty much what you would espect – Middle Eastern but not swarthy, handsome but not beautiful in the glamorous sense, but His presence is so persuasive, so compelling – and don’t worry – I have seen the other one too – whose presence is cold, calculating, and condemning – kind of like yours. 0(:->)

    If you have not experienced the anointing in such manifestation of power, then simply humble yourself and ask Jesus to show you – and while you are at it – ask Him to show you who you do not forgive. How many dead and seriously injured have you prayed for and seen raised up? I have seen more miracles and wonders in the last 10 years than most churches see in a lifetime – so your insults are water off a ducks back. You show mne your words, I shall show you my Power. OK?

    Like I said, I challenge all to pray the same prayer -I am open for correction, are you?

    Here is wisdom – everyone is wrong to some degree – some a little, some a lot, but we all have our own degree of inclination relative to the truth – but Jesus is the plumb, the True North, and He shall draw all Men to Himself. He told me a while back that we needed to understand the difference between the duality of good and evil and the dichotomy of flesh and Spirit. If you do not get this, you will never discern rightly and be always judging others.

    I am kind of like my big brother, I like turn over tables and run off money changers and challenge people.

    In a few years, you will all understand – the REFORMATION coming to the church is the separation of the flesh from the Spirit – the circumcison of the heart of multiplied millions as the Son of Man comes in Power and Glory – and if you are at all interested, it will start here – soon – in our city of Christ-Church, New Zealand, or Aotearoa to the Tangata Whenua (Natives) – which means the Land of the Long White (glory) Cloud. Ask Jesus if it be so, instead of trying to work it out for yourself or resorting to your religion and its disempowering traditions.

    Peace and ENJOY!

  56. Powerballs, the REFORMATION sure is coming (indeed it has not ended), not that false prophets like yourself will benefit from it.

    You are on the record as saying “Most Christians could not even tell you what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is”…..”More than anything, God hates the merciless, hateful, judgmental attitude which has permeated a “church” which is more focusd on rightness than righteousnes and which has more to say about hell and punishment than about heaven and correction.”

    Tell us Powerballs – why the vindication of God’s Holy and Righteous Wrath against sin is a “merciless, hateful, judgmental attitude” – The Scriptures clearly teach that those who are outside of Christ are under the WRATH of God and can expect nothing more than H E – double hockey sicks “HELL” – thats what scripture testifies to humanity….

    In light of that my next question is – if God’s Wrath is not real, then how is his mercy relevant?

  57. @Powerballs – regarding your false prophecy about Christchurch NZ, please show us from the Holy Scriptures – our sole rule for faith and practice, where this is taught?

  58. Ian Williams, thank you for replying to my question. Sounds like you left the organised church because you met a ‘new Jesus’ which changed your belief system to the extent that you no longer supported a lot of the thinking in the organised churches you had been a part of. One aspect of which was keeping ‘rolodex’ accounts on people – judging others? Keeping score? Comparing spiritual status based on religious behaviours?

    Anyway, I am not a part of an organised church currently either, though I do necessarily not regard it as anathema. The health of a community can be good or bad in a church or any other setting. I have heard of some organised settings that seem quite good but currently believe the Lord does not want me attending one for various reasons.

    Re your experiences – most people would raise eyebrows reading those things written by a stranger (or even someone they know) but I have experienced the sense of being hit by a ‘ball’ of stuff – except in my experience it was really evil stuff. (Which did me no harm, but was very surprising – another story.) My husband many years ago experienced a crying episode like you describe.

    I like this quote of yours:

    “As has been observed, Christianity started out in Jerusalem as a bride, became a philosophy in Greece, a culture in Europe, and in America, a business – and when a bride becomes a business it is called a whore.”

    Mmmm. I don’t really regard ‘churches’ that become that business focussed as ‘church’ these days. Perhaps it’s not the bride that has become a business. Perhaps that bride is not the real one.

    As for the reformation you describe coming to the church – I would not know. Maybe such a thing will start in NZ. Yet we hear many people prophecying revival or moves of various kinds, and they often start in the country of the person’s origin, or else, the country hosting the visiting speaker. In terms of people leaving mainstream church – it seems to be happening all over the western world.

  59. There is one thing for certain, where the sanctimonious control-freak blog’o’crat Ravingpente and the false prophet Powerballs are concerned, there’s a new “jesus” to meet at every compromising juncture….

  60. Very amusing – in a vague kind of way – you remind me of another who accused me of being a false prophet. I told him when he asked what I saw for his Circe, that God wnated to put a match under it. He thought that it meant revival, I knew it meant destruction.

    He rejected me as a false prophet based on the condemnation and accusation of some who were offended because I had accurately prophesied the imprisonment of one of a particular clique’s fellows. Anyway, 18mths later the pastor was out of his ministry and the church had been levelled – not one stone upon another.

    Now, unless you understand what NEW means in Bible parlance, you will miss the point. This can be easily understood by comprehending what Jesus and John meant by a NEW COMMANDMENT I give unto you, yet not new, but old, or as at the beginning (as in “NEW”) – get it? To put it simply – you have a new care – it gets old – then you renew it – make it like NEW again – which is its true and original condition – as in God had a lamb slain before the foundations of the worlds.

    As for Christchurch, it is the utmost part of the world from Jerusalem – and has been prophesied over by the likes of Smith Wigglesworth and even the original Anglican Bishop. There are hundreds of people who have been compelled by God to come here to prepare for revival – it is a kind of spiritual epicentre, underscored by the recent seismic activity where an earthquake of similar magnitude to Kobe (which killed 6500 people) did not kill one person and only resulted in minor injuries. Intercessors reported of being activated in the days leading up to pray over the city and their households.

    It is quite a buzz to sit on your bed being hugged by your wife as a significant earhquake 45 seconds long gives you the widest ride you have ever experienced, and yet feel strangely calm and at peace and in God’s hands.

    Christchurch is appointed and anointed – Jesus told me not to think of what was coming as being a revival, but a VIVAL. I feel utterly confident that in a few years time it will have been made much obvious what this Cities role is – and why the population of the earth has been concentrated in Cities. Satan purposed this to exploit and then eradicate Mankind, but God is going to spoil His party.

    God is a God of intentions, you 5inch, or whatever your handle is, are a man of thoughts, it might seem. After a lifetime of seeing things that few humans get to, I can aaure you that what is coming will blow you all away – a lot of your problem is you are reading the Masons Bible – the King James. Get a hold of something like Vic Alexander’s Aramaic Translation – much, much better. OR perhaps the Geneva Bible and its derivatives, such as the New Living Trans – even the Message is better! The King James has been tweaked in key places to change the meaning of the original texts – and to ensure the defeat of its adherents.

  61. By the way, I suspect you do not know squat about what hell really is, but I think that by your attitude, you certianly seem in danger of it – as in RACA. OK? I am a lover, not a fighter, but I hope that I may plant a seed in those disaffected souls who have seen through the system – kinda – but are confused as to the Big Picture and how it is not God’s intention that any should be lost, but that all should come to know him. If you cannot get the implications of that, you are probably being obtuse.

    Shall I tell you wat Jesus showed me about Barak Obama? No, I will let that one play out – but it is a doozy.

    “He will sit as lamb, but arise as a lion.”

    The Lamb and the Lion have to sit together where you are concerned. If you do not learn to sit as alamb, you may well roar like a lion. 0(:->)

  62. Thats all very interesting, but while you are strutting around like a prophetic spiritual peacock you should be at least able to answer basic questions put to you that any faithful Christian should know how to faithfully address…

    – I personally think you are a lying dog (which is really insulting to lying dogs) and you neither love Christ nor Truth and I no more owe you a duty of love and tacit acceptance of your blasphemy than I do a fox who has burrowed under the fence of the chicken coupe…in fact if I care to defend Truth, I am mandated to fill your lying carcass with buck-shot…

    Answer the questions

  63. Furthermore, its strange how “jesus” laid all this bullshit on you about Christchurch NZ and forgot to correct you about your eisegetical twisting of 2 Peter 3:9 where the context is clearly eschatological – i.e. the coming of Christ – NOT PRIMARY SOTERIOLOGIGAL… the reference to “coming to repentance” in the passage is made obiter dictum – in passing (feel free to correct me!!!)- also in the passage the Apostle is writing to a specific group – not to all of mankind.

    Of course Im really upset that I am being denied of a chance to hear your prophecy about Barac Obama – can you imaginge how great a loss that is – where do you self proclaimed prophet freaks come from – the audacity is astounding!

    What do you think Ravingpente – want to hear this charlatan’s Obama prophecy that he, and no one else, personally got from GOD ALMIGHTY because of his spiritual superiority and sensitivity?? When will you ever have the backbone to actually defend what you profess to love – you are just as full of it as old powerballs here….

  64. You will notice that I do not hide behind a pseudonym or PC identity. This is because I stand behind what I claim to have occured – and I have witnesses too. The reason why I did not reply directly to your Pharisaical ranting and grilling is there is no point. You are bound like the pages of that little black book you base your life upon. I prefer to focus on operating the machine rather than reading the manual, BUT I always refer to it when lead.

    I can assure you that Jesus is returning in person, and soon – if I am wrong then you can laugh over my grave, but if I am right, then you may be reduced to some weaping and wailing and gnashing of teeth when you realise what an ass you have been.

    I once asked God why He has shown me what He has, and He said, “Becasue you asked” – ask, that your joy may be full. Whatsoever you ask the Father in My Name…

    As to the Barack prophecy – when he was being elected, and so many “christians” were playing pin the tail on the antichrist ass, I asked Jesus what He had to say about him – I was shown a lamb, with a smile like Obama’s, sitting in a green field – then He stood up and became a lion. I was given to understand both what God intended for him and what it means for the lion and the lamb to lay down together.

    The difference between you and me is that I know I am a lying dog (a sinner), in the flesh sense, but then I now that all Mankind are too, for all have fallen short, all at variance to the truth to some degree, none are truly upright or perfected – none. The closest I ever saw was Corrie ten Boom – the Hiding Place lady.

    Paul said it was not he who sinned, but sin in him.

    This is why God made the same grace available to all in Jesus, in whom all were created. I worked out some time back that the best way to understand the Word of God was to get to know the author and simply ask. I also asked you some questions which you saw fit to avoid or evade and instead simply offer insults. How many miracles have you experienced both in your life and by your hands being His? How many times have you been granted visions, dreams, revelations? Or are you content to try and understand God by the vanity of your own mind and your grasp of classical languages?

    I’ll do you the same way Jesus would – by asking you a question: Is it the gospel which is the power of God, or the power of God which is the good news? What is better to give starving man, a recipe or a cake?

    The bible is the cup – a shadow and type of the Word made flesh, the Anointed Word is the drink – without the Word in you making it come alive it is merely a contentious book – only when God breathes upon it and it comes alive do you receive true wisdom.

    Many years ago I set myself to prepare a message. When I asked Jesus what He would have me share He said, “Moses did not have an Old Testament, and Paul did not have a New Testment – they had a relationship, and out of that came the books.

    I had a prominent American minister accuse me of being a false prophet, or lying dog, so i asked him to simply agree with me that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would teach us both what we need to know, and that by His Holy Spirit. This is my position as to your contention.

    I asked Jesus why the Jews were such an extreme people – why He had them kill their neighbours, why they were so the way they are and still are – He told me that he had to raise up a race of people who were so extreme that they would have both the kind of people to believe Jesus into existence (the Old Testament is a recipe for Jesus – the Word made flesh) but also be so hard hearted that they could kill and utterly reject their own God made flesh. Only John and Mary remained faithful.

    John pointed to this, in that the spirit of antichrist is that which denies (contradicts, blasphemes) the Manifestation of Jesus Christ in the flesh. We are told by Paul not to know anyone after the flesh, but after the Spirit (in which they were created).

    Only the Word is sharp enough to divide between flesh and Spirit. I invite Him to do His inner work in me, His workmanship, and in a few years we shall see what we shall see. It is reassuring to see that the Pharisaic Spirit is still crucifying Jesus. Why do you think that world is being lured into debt slavery by those who say that they are Jews, and are not, and do lie, but they are a synagogue of satan? In a little while – prophetically speaking – there will be a financial crash so widespread that all hope will be lost – the world will be “baptised” in a sea of unremittable debt, because jerks like you hold others in debt. The world has become one big hellish prison where billions of people who have not fully released and remitted the debts of their neighbours are imprsioned by their own gracelessness – and your country is the prime example of this – the world is drowing in debt. This is a manifest metaphor of the world’s condition, and that includes the majority of believers. But God will empower the comapny of the saints and they shall casue the whole earth to believe. You can read about it in Romans – where is says at the end of chap 11, “For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so that he might have mercy of a all.” Your God is just to small for me.

    Raving Pente – check out Gary Amirault from Tentmaker for some interesting resources to help free you from those imposed burdens which keep you from entering in because people like 5PS – PS as in Pharisaical Spirit – do not want to enter in themselves (?).

    P.S. Jesus is a Rock of Offence and a Stone of Stumbling – you “enter in” by falling on Him in submission and laying down your life – or you enter in by oblivion when He falls upon you. Your choice – but when we have truly laid down our lives, we will look up to everyone – or at least that is what my Personal Saviour told me. OK? Can we agree on Jesus, if nothing else? 0(:->)

    Oh, and did not the Pharisees accuse Jesus of operating by Baal-zebub? Questions, questions, questions…

  65. @ Ian – If the canon is still “open” and God is still giving “revelation” (only to you it seems), do I need to download and copy all your fresh “revelation” and add it to the back of my bible?

    “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim 3:16–17)

    If we use scripture as a measure to test all you claim, then it quite clearly puts you in the category of a false prophet.

    Does God still speak today? Yes, quite clearly and completely through His Word, never apart from it.

    You have clearly invited confusion into your life by believing that you have “seen” Jesus rather than Satan disguised as an angel of light. If you want to throw out the historical standard of biblical interpretation and redefine revelation, then let that be “anathema”.

  66. By the way, the work of the Holy Spirit is mighty in the church today, empowering us to witness and serve, leading us into God’s truth as He directs His will for our lives.

  67. 2 Corinthians 12:2 ESV “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.”

    Can’t help but be reminded how humble the apostle Paul was about his experience – something to think about, Ian.

    Your comments are more about you, and that, in and of itself, reminds me just how much Satan likes to be the centre of attention.

  68. Powerballs, a “PSUEDOchristian” whose schtick is preaching and promoting HIMSELF rather than Christ and Him Cricified of course would be defeating his own maligned purposes by having a “psuedonym”.

    Your 1st question:
    “How many miracles have you experienced both in your life and by your hands being His?” – I have experienced the greatest miracle – monergistic regeneration and the new birth and I “experience” and percieve his gracious acts of PROVIDENCE all the time (you may find it helpful to distinguish between miracles and providence rather than conflating the two categories).

    Your second question:
    “How many times have you been granted visions, dreams, revelations?”

    None, save to say I experienced a succession of images, ideas, emotions and sensations which occured involuntarily in my mind during certain stages of my sleep last night – what most normal people experience every night called a dream…

    Now, usisng your infallible “talking to jesus hermenutic” (instead of using the faculty of the mind purposely created by God in humans, His vice-regents and image bearers on earth, to think His thoughts after Him by what He has revealed of His mind in his WORD) – would you please answer my questions:

    You are on the record as saying “Most Christians could not even tell you what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is”…..”More than anything, God hates the merciless, hateful, judgmental attitude which has permeated a “church” which is more focusd on rightness than righteousnes and which has more to say about hell and punishment than about heaven and correction.”

    Tell us why the vindication of God’s Holy and Righteous Holy Wrath against sin is a “merciless, hateful, judgmental attitude” – The Scriptures clearly teach that those who are outside of Christ are under the WRATH of God and can expect nothing more than H E – double hockey sicks “HELL” – thats what scripture testifies to humanity….

    In light of that my next question is – if God’s Wrath is not real, then how is his mercy relevant?

  69. @Poweballs –

    By the way I had to have a chuckle, I have been accused of losts of things but never being responsible for causing the GFC!!!! – The reality is buddy, Im actually doing rather bloody well in the financial arena and am not in debt because I work hard at my earthly profession – which pays quite well – because I worked hard to qualify for it…

    Still, I would much rather be the cause of the GFC than the cause of Gods name being blasphemed among the nations which can be directly attributed to lying scumbags like you

  70. Dear Faceleper – the new paragon of virtue for blogisphere ethics over at the reflection room, now that someone has thrown you a soggy biscuit and you have decided to weigh in on the conversation, I take this opportunity to:

    1. respond very simply to your typical pin-head’esque comments;
    2. ensure that you are not suffering from any delusions of adequacy over in your new confines; and
    3. to remind your compromising hypocritical ass of a simple fact,

    – at least I respect the ban put on me by RP on her blog and I don’t act like a desperado cyber-prat who feigns different identities and IP’s to break into the blog just to annoy the crap out of people…

    P.S. your mother should have thrown you away and kept the stork

    P.P.S. bite me

  71. Guys – the answer is so simple – it is Jesus. He is the POWER OFF GOD. The word wrath is also translated passion. Even His passionate wrath is an act of mercy. I am sorry that some of you folk are so bound by your traditions that you have not experienced what i have. I do not brag to draw attention to myself, but rather to trumpet what is coming down the line.

    Have you any idea how humbling it is to sit at the right hand of majesty on high? I do not take this stuff lightly, but I have to confess that I became used to it quite quickly.

    It amuses me that you make such a show about using the Word to beat on me – like Peter with his sword.

    I amused to messengers of satan sent to buffet – it keep sme grounded.

    I will share one more testimony with you. There may be some folk who will get this, but you will probably think that I am crazy – but hey – I don’t mind.

    About 8 yrs ago, I was awoken one mornign by the holy Spirit – he told me to go directly to the driveway and get the morning paper. My attention was drawn to an article on the front page about a young man who had been run over while exiting a manhole in the street. e was in hospital on life support – his spine and most bones in his upper body shattered – his prognosis was very grim. Teh Holy Spirit instructed me to pray for him – i felt utterly helpless and useless – “What can I do?”

    Simply lay your left hand on the article and raise your right hand and release faith – as I did – I “saw” an image of him being recreated from his very DNA. It happened in the twinkling of an eye.

    I had forgotten about the incident when two weeks later, a young man who was a client entered my shop to pick up his wedding rings. His presense was such that I felt humbled by it – he apologised for being later to pick up his rings and explained how he had to go to hospital unexpectedly.

    Two more weeks later, I was at a Bridal Show when an older woman approached me and thanked me for making such a nice job of her son and daughter-in-law’s rings. She went on to epxplain how that he was the young man who had been run over, but that God had granted him a miracle and that afterkeepign him in for observation to try and determine why a totally messed up individual could be totally healed. She told me the entire IC ward and staff were freaked out – they had never so much as seen such a thing.

    I later quizzed one of my Doctor clients about it – he told me that no one really wnated to talk about it – it was just so unbeliveable and amazing.

    Years later, I asked Jesus why this young man? He answered that he was type of what Jesus was going to do with the Body of Christ – that it looked like raod kill right now compared to its image (Christ) but that Hed would restore it from and according to its spiritual DNA, Christ.

    As for extra scritural revelations – come on guys – what about Luther? he was accused of such but now we take salvation by grace for granted.

    If you work in the financial sector and are a Christian then you ought to know that it is usury which is at the core of the dysfunction – the cyclical collapse of any usurious system is a mathmatical inevitability.

    I do know and appreciate the difference between providence and the miraculous – I live in and by His providence and experience the miraculous betimes as He wills.

    Why are you so nasty? Are you jealous? God is still doing miracles and he does nothing except He first tells His prohets first, so that they may declare it into being.

    He told me that prayer is not so much communication with God, but the communication of God and His will.

    True prayer declares the answer, not the problem.

    I guess I just take for granted what have experienced.

    Jesus said, “All judgment is committed to me yet I judge no man.” He bore our sin on the tree.

    The answer is simple, just ask Jesus, and if I am indeed a servant of the Most High, then you are in danger of the hell of fire. Encountering people like you only confirms what I learned first hand about the arrogance and hatred of some Americans – my God – look what you are doing to the world – how long do you think God will put up with your nonsense?

    You may not be quite so smug about your success when the boom comes down – soon. Here is a share tip – the Dow will be halved by the end of the year.

    As for your adversarial accusations – you are clearly of your father. Night night folks. I am done.

  72. What is sown in the flesh is reaped in the flesh, and what is sown in the Spirit is reaped in the Spirit.

  73. By the way, just one last question, just who do you want to see suffer for all eternity? Careful now…think before you answer….for it is not God’s intention that any be lost…

  74. Never heard of him. When i came out of the wilderness it was like nowhere had I heard what i was hearing, and my Pente friends thought that i had lost it, but then Bishop (I hate titles) Preston came out and said the same thing. Then someone accused me of being a Universalist – I did not even know what that was – then I stumbled across Tentmaker.org.

    I am completely ready to accept that what I have come to believe is so radical and that it may seem crazy – but I stand by it until told other wise by Jesus.

    I love to debate but prefer face to face with swords drawn, not firing from behind hides.

  75. Harold Camping:

    take your “healing hands”, put them in front of your face and aternately slap yourself upside your unexamined head 10,000 times – then you can take your lying prophetic lips and smooch my pasty white butt

    The Lord Rebuke You – False Prophet

  76. Who is Harold Camping? If you want to know what a ravening wolf is, or indeed those who rise up from among you, then read Acts 20. According to Paul, if you do not work with your own hands to provide for your own, then you are just a flocking sheep rustling tithe burglar. You don’t seem to get it – I am simply a craftsman/businessman who has been called outside the camp until the reformation occurs – which will happen soon. The tell tale sign for all you unbelievers will be the Holy Spirit withdrawing from the churches. I do not seek followers or fielty of any kind – in fact – I am happy to be a solo stirrer.

  77. BY the way, the reason why most Christian witches operate behind psedonyms is so that they can hide their identity lest anyone get there name and pray about it. God showed me the true extent of your witchcraft with Katrina – Masons used their influence behind the scene to created botnets of believers by using spireitual spybots to deeply implant infected files into the imagination, such that when a real false prophets like Kim Clement and others say that there is going to be a hurricane come upon New Orleans that the faithful idiots will fall into line and believe for it.

    And they were all of one mind and one accord and nothing that they imagined might be restrained from them – that is why the language is confused in the Babylonian Church – as in BC – as in OT – as in Hagar, as in Jerusalem! Why don’t you focus on the Jewish Roots Movement and the Noahide Laws? Now they are REAL DEEP DECEPTIONS – but only if you are an idiot of course. Oh well, enough of this foolishness.

  78. When I say YOU, I mean Am Ericans collectively. Columbia and Liberty are just another name for Babylon, mother of harlots.

    Look up Erica (ruler of all) and add her to the list of Jezebel’s names! Your founding document was written by Freemasons for goodness sakes, yet God still used them! Go figure. Who is like unto the BEAST, and who can make war with him? USA – 50% of the world’s arms budget.

  79. Well, this is all very enlightening! Best have a cup of tea, a Bex and a good lie down, who knows what tomorrow may bring? 🙂

  80. Teddy, God’s Word is NOT A BOOK – it is aPERSON who lives in the heart. te Bible is not the fourth person of the Godhead! Speaking of which, are you familiar with the Seven Spirits of God? Answer me this if you may – if God is three persons, how does He have seven spirits? Clue – he is ONE who is three who is seven but ever remains ONE and ALL!

    I actually know the WORD (Jesus) a lot better than you may think – why don’t you ask Him? Just agree that whosoever needs to hear whatsover will do so by the Spirit of God? But obviously you already know it all and don’t need to. 0(:->)

  81. So, a bex and tea – acetyl salicylic acid no less – are you an acid freak? So I guess maybe you are from Sydney and not a Yank? Oh well, the Aussies and Canucks are just pseudo-yanks anyway, and the younger generation in NZ is getting sucked into the American capitalist/consumerist vortex.

    I remember seeing the old Alkies on Bayswater Road, sparking up their morning brew – a Bex and a beer with a whisky chaser.

    0(:->)

  82. Well – you hit the nail right on the head – an American Pig promoted by the Jew Schlesinger!

    The joke is on you guys, not me.

  83. This thread has been very entertaining. I have not heard that stuff about Christian witches before.

    Ian, Harry S Dent is an economist who is forecasting an even bigger recession in the US once the Fed stops printing money. (Though at this stage I wonder if they ever will!) He bases his forecasts on cyclical events and demographic changes. Even though his dates don’t always seem to be right, the general directions he talks of do seem to take place. His first book was ‘The Great Boom Ahead’ which we have now had; his most recent (that I know of) is ‘The Great Depression Ahead’.

    Not much fun if you believe what he says.

  84. ok … Jesus is coming back soon you say.

    Will he come back pre, mid or post trib?

    How long will He come back for?

  85. As for the timing of the Trib – it seems that there is as much or more contention over this issue than any. I am asimple man, I am too busy keeping my family fed (or FED) to concern myself with breaking down the plethora of arguements – far easier to just go to the source – but then you have to be deprogrammed from all the STUFF which occipiers what he wants to fill.

    I tend to forget that there are people out there who have not actually met Jesus, but then blessed are they who have not seen and yet believe – maybe it was becasue I was a doubting Thomas who had to have everything proven to me – line and verse – that God did a number on me and literally compelled me to live by faith instead of by my wits.

    The word witchdraft, like so many others, has been laregly neutralized by its colloquial use. Biblical witchcraft is the resorting to natural means (the human will, mind, and drugs) to achieve what may appear to be spiritual ends. This is why it is important to comprehend just who Circe was, an archetpe of Babylon, whi by the wine of her ferment and her fornication literally screws the world. In the Aramaic, it says that the whole world grew rich by the merchandising of her “inner frills”. Do I have to spell it out more plainly? This is the love OF gain as distinct from the love OF God.

    The reason why it is relatively easy to predict monetary cycles is that, becasue of the dub,ing factor, any system based on usury is inevitably and mathmatically bound to crash. Jesus gave us the pattern for the correct atttude toward money and people – Go, sell all that you have, give to the poor and follow me. Don’t trust in uncertain riches – if someone steals from you, do not demand it back.

    Tell me one person you know who ticks all the boxes – that’s right, there is only Jesus, but that is the point, for all fall short. I am not trying to impress you with my God stuff, but rather too make people mad or curious enough to actually ask Jesus to show them the Truth – to have Him reveal Himself as He really is.

    In June 2001, a 16yr old Palestinian boy had blown himself and 16 young Israelis to pieces in a nightclub – the man’s father was reported as being proud of his martyr son who was “now in the paradise of God”.

    I, in my Pente zeal exclaimed that the man was a FOOL and his son was SURELY IN HELL! (once)

    My dear Jewish/Irish/English wife said that I should not judge such a thing, but I was sure of my doctrine and said, “NO, man’s a foll, sons in hell (second time). Again, she said that it was not for me to judge such a thing.

    I ran off upstairs to get ready for work and called back over my shoulder, “Nah, mans a fool, sons in hell” (Three strikes and you are OUT) and at that, halfway up the stairs, a booming voice stopped me dead in my tracks – “You watch who you are calling a fool – I called you to be a WITNESS, not a JUDGE!”

    I froze – then heard, “And what would you say if I told you that boy was with me right now?”

    At that, there appeared before me as it were, an open heaven, and there stood Jesus with a young Arabic boy, about 16, dressed in a white robe and with the right arm of Jesus about his shoulder. His eyes were imploring me to believe as Jesus fixed me with His reproving gaze. I was shattered – everything I had ever believed – my soterialogical sandcastle was levelled – I sputtered, “You are going to have to teach me about this” as I realised for all practical purpose, I knew nothing except Him – I only thought that I did.

    The first scripture which came to me was “From henceforth know we NO MAN after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” I was utterly bereft – I had immediately repented in my heart but there i was – one who had been so porud of his knowledge – I knew nothing except Jesus at that moment; and the one scripture He used to correct me.

    I had a minister/writer in America who had previously commended me for some some articles i had written tell me that I was very dangerously deluded – so i asked in my heart what to do. I heard – get him into agreement. So, I suggested that we should each commit ourselves to Jesus Christ, the only Son of the Father, the God of – that whosoever will hear whatsoever they need to, and that by the Spirit of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel (just so we are certain who it is that we are dealing with). Amen?

    15 months later, I heard to check out his website and read his latest article. It was about how he had spent the last 15 months having his whole understanding of God worked over, such that he discovered the beauty of doubt – of doubting your own mind and instead embracing Hisd mind ever the more – to determine and to know nothing except Christ Jesus and Him crucified – his pride broken and shattered by Love.

    This has become my raison d’etre – my MO – just as i no longer trust myself to know anything except Christ Jesus and Him crucifed, I only want to have the Mind of Christ – which Paul assures us is ours – but in order to open the dooor to His entry, we have to be prepared to have out house put in order and all our doctrines of devils and traditions of men evicted.

    It is the Pharisees who have kept the kingdom of heaven shut against Man because they do not want to enter in – they want to maintain their Law.

    I used to be a Pharisee, and whenever that OLD leavening shows up Jesus jumps on it and confronts me. One of the most misunderstood scriptures, and boy there are plenty, is in 2 Tim – if we deny Him He shall deny us. If we contradict Him or blaspheme Him, He contradicts/blasphemes us (check out the Aramaic and Greek). But how does He deny, contradict or blaspeme us? It says that He cannot deny Himself, for He is TRUTH, so He will not do anything other than CONTINUE TO SPEAK THE TRUTH IN LOVE OVER US.

    Like I said, just ask Him and believe – Luther lead the reformation in part to break the power of Rome over men’s minds – ever wondered why so many public buildings in AmErica are built after the Greo/Roman fashion?

    Just ask, nothing doubting, and expect to hear, and when the student is ready, the Teacher cometh. And while you are at it, run all your precious, specious doctrines past the Aramaic, or better still submit them to Jesus for correction – do you trust Jesus or your own guarded mind?

    The name God gave me means literally “Grace Grant(ed) Will protection” Use the name God gave you – fully – do not shorten it or change it or use another – it is your user name – and Jesus is the password. Your cyber identity is a manifestation of you alter ego – you are protecting dead man – a kind of witness protection programme that allows you to make outlandish adversarial accusations from the “safety” of your own ass-umed identity and anonymity.

    Good night – hope the bed bugs don’t bite – or is it Morgellons Disease from all the GM corn you eat?

    By the way 5PS, I have seen the bowls of wrath – God showed them to me when he had me pray over your economy a few years back – “I shall send leanness upon My fat ones, saith the Lord your God.”

    He showed me how that they are filled with all the contradicitons which people pray and say – the unremittable blasphemies of the Holy Spirit – which is where He puts all the nasty, evil, loveless, judgmental dung the mind of Man manufactures. And they are slopping over – they are full to the brim.

    So denate but don’t argue with me, although I always loved a good debate – and simply ask Jesus!

  86. @ Ian – with all these experiences you are sharing with us, have you ever been “translated”?

    Just curious because you remind me of friends who are enamoured of Israel, visit Jerusalem often, though not through “translation” but by plane, people who would secretly love to consider themselves “messianic jews” even though they are gentiles.

    Having said all that perhaps, if you have been “translated” of course , you are dealing with Jerusalem syndrome (something our friends seem to be experiencing sadly)? Or something similar perhaps?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_syndrome

  87. Ian Williams – several things you have said are quite concerning.
    1. “He told me a while back that we needed to understand the difference between the duality of good and evil and the dichotomy of flesh and Spirit.”

    That is GNOSTIC dualism. You know, part of the heresy that the apostle John warned against in 1 John…

    2. tentmaker.org teaches the heresy of universalism. http://carm.org/universalism-is
    Did Jesus talk about hell and how we should fear it more than death – yes or no (e.g. Matthew 10:27-29, Matthew 18:8-10)? Is eternal damnation for those who rejected God mentioned in the Book of Revelations – yes or no?
    Did early church fathers -in addition to the New Testament – also write about hell/eternal punishment -yes or no? I’ll help you out here….
    e.g. 2 Clement (130-160 AD) 6:7 If, therefore, we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if not, nothing will deliver us from ETERNAL PUNISHMENT (emphasis added), if we obey not his commandments. See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com for further research.

    3.” As for extra scritural revelations – come on guys – what about Luther? he was accused of such but now we take salvation by grace for granted.”

    No – Luther went back to the Bible. He rejected what Catholicism had become – a legalistic, money worshipping, hypocritical church that itself had added extraBiblical revelations i.e. man written doctrines and laws. e.g. indulgences, excessive honor to saints and the Mother Mary.

    4. Signs and wonders are no guarantee that a person is truly annointed by (the christian) God. Many other religions have had leaders e.g. gurus that followers also swear perform miracles and healings.

    Conclusion: are all these experiences/signs of yours adding to or taking away from the Gospels? Are they in perfect agreement with the Bible – yes or no?

    HINT: Galatians 1: 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

  88. @Teddy – Jerusalem Syndrome seems to be a pretty good fit. This is precisely why departure from our ultimate authority for faith and practice (the Holy Scriptures) is so dangerous.

    Not only is this type of wacko the reason why dangerous abusive cults get started but it is also distinctly reminiscent of chappy born in 570 in the Arabian city of Mecca, who at the age of 40, retreated to a cave in the surrounding mountains for “meditation and reflection” where he received his first “revelation from God” in which the he claimed to have been visited by the angel Gabriel who revealed to him a verse from the Qur’an after which he became the self-proclaimed “prophet of Allah”….

  89. Like Muhummad, the only thing Prophet Powerballz forgot to add to start each of his quaint “revelations” from God is “once upon a time…..”

  90. @Teddy, sorry – Faceleper is pinging to open up with a diatribe against me in defence his like-mined false as prophet heretic buddy Powerballz but he knows as soon as he mentions me or SP02 directly his comments a going to get the “snip” treatment from “she who must be obeyed”…

    he’s playing the pharisee card again (yawn…)

    Quite entertaining to watch

  91. I find it rather sad that someone could compromise their own “orthodox” beliefs and side with obvious false prophets and heretics simply because they don’t “like” you.

    I wonder how long they would put up with people like Ian in their church before they would have to ask them to repent or leave? Or call for the men in white coats and special jackets?

    When we were at C3, there were many occasions where the deacons had to escort guys like Ian off the premises – churches like C3 have a tendency to attract the spiritually wayward.

  92. C3 – is that in Sydney or elsewhere? There was/is a C3 here (in Christchurch which was formerly The Door).

    I believe that it was Christopher Pringle, formerly of New Zealand, who founded C3. Hill$ong$ was also started by an NZ,er.

    Now guys, instead of speculating about my mental health, why donlt you simply do as i suggested and ask Jesus? I guess maybe that its because you do not really trust Him already? Thats smacks of Catholic style conformity to the Priest-hood. Jesus said call NO MAN FATHER – yet Pope means father.

    Anyway, i have to really than you guys – honestly – for being the pricks who have brought me to an amazing revelation. A little while back, I was talking about offences when it occured to me that I did not really know what it meant by “He is a Stone of stumbling and a Rock of offence.”

    Well, blow me down cobber, if i did not get the revelaton this morning – nothing like fresh Manna in the mornign to set you up form the evils of the day, eh? Anyway, thanks for being so offensively provocative.

    I am going to write an essay on “The Most Offensive Man who Ever Lived – JESUS!” Now, seeing as you have not accepted my faith challenge, i will take the opportunity to provoke you some more. Jesus offended everyone, especially the Pharisees. He offended the Herodians, He offended the foodies who followed Him, He offended the 120 who followed Him, He even offended those closest to him, EXCEPT JOHN AND MARY, who were types of the Holy Spirit (Mary) and the Father (John – the apostle of Love). By the way, the Holy Spirit is referred to in teh aramaic in the feminine gender – as in “God made man in HIS OWN IMAGE, male and female created He them.” The Jezebel spirit is antithetic to the Holy Spirit.

    Everyone else abandoned or/or denied Him – EVERYONE! Why? Becasue He OFFENDED THEM ALL! That is why they nailed Him to a tree (of knowledge of good and evil).

    This is why the Truth (Jesus) is a stone of offence, a rock of stumbling. (An adulterous sinner was stoned, a type of the ROCK falling on you.)

    BUT, it is NOT JESUS who causes the offence, it is YOUR OFFENCE which is the problem – He is just there to exacerbate and obviate it. We hide our offences under our religious comedy tragedy mask (study it out) and play church, BUT GOD IS NOT MOCKED! He will amke sure that if you do not open up and have your offences dealt with, that He will send someone to make you confront your carnality.

    The most profound influence on my life, after Jesus, was Corrie ten Boom (and Watchman Nee) – if you have not read the Hiding Place or seen the movie, then do so. Her grace in the face of the most terrible offences was the stuff of legend, yet she was a simple woman who simply believed in God, and who understood that no matter what Man did to her, God was bigger and that he loved all and so should she, becasue in the end, it was all about the triumph of grace. The loveless do not get this – it is too high for them.

    By the way, all you scholars out there, try looking up the words cross and crucify in W E Vines or any other good Lexicon.

    Thanks again guys, it is pricks like you who make my life a joy.

  93. Yeah Yeah, go make your imaginary friends some freindship rings jewellry boy

    Another satisfied SP02 customer 🙂

  94. Charming. Now Ian you too are descending into less original name calling and insults. What was that you said earlier about RACA? (Or is it raka?)

    Jesus did offend everyone, I agree. Of course he did. He turned the world order upside down. The Beatitudes are wonderfully offensive in that sense, as well as being incredibly good news.

    You are almost right re C3 – it was started by Phil Pringle, and his wife is Christine Pringle, and yes they are from New Zealand.

    What do you mean by Jezebel spirit? You also mentioned Christian witches. Have you observed some particular issue re women that is causing these references?

  95. @RP – why dont you close that sappy blog down and come back to us – UNITE US RAVINGPENTE – UNITE THE CLANS!!

  96. Oh dear.

    I thought I recognised the name. So, muslim suicide bombers go to heaven because of their sincerity?

    Ooh. I would agree that children may well be judged differently by Jesus, but I think you need strong medication. Are you bipolar?

    I am not trying to be deliberately insulting, but I think you really need to ask who exactly you are seeing. Even Mohammed thought he was seeing satanic visions, until his wife talked him out of it.

    Oh, you didn’t answer the question regarding the tribulation. Since you have a direct line to Jesus, who appears to you regularly, I thought you would have been told, particularly since you yourself mentioned that “the time is short”.

  97. Mosco, what does “storkboy” mean exactly?

    I am welsh after all, so I don’t speaka de lingo.

    At least it isn’t obviously crude.

    Ta very muchly,

    Shalom

  98. Hey Bull, my lineage is very Welsh too! And i have the baritone to prove it.

    I was once on my way home from a prayer meeting, ridingf my bike, and thinking about the rapture, when in my heart I asked Jesus what “it” would be like? Instantaneously I saw Him in the sky – huge – and I was caugth up to be with Him and then just as quickly was back – the rush of joy was incredible and in my heart I had the most profound reassurance that it is going to happen,but as to when, I simply trust Him that the Father alone knows the time. OK?

    You guys are saved more by default than design – you simply do not know Jesus – this is plainly obvious, but just as obvious is that you think you do – you are dull of hearing and the blind led by the blind.

    Raca, on the other hand, means “Empty headed” and is an expression of utter contempt – I have nothing but love for you all – otherwise why would I let myself become a gazing stock and the object of religious ridicule? Blessed indeeed are they who are deemed worthy to suffer for His Name’s sake – have you ever felt that joy?

    You guys still do not get it, do you? God had a lamb slain from before the foundations of the worlds. I will say tis one more time – you need to comprehend the difference between the dualtiy of good and evil (of the same tree) and the dichotomy of flesh and spirit.

    I have never been to Jerusalem, though I have several standing invites – but I have been to heaven. Ask Jesus to show you waht the tower to the heavens is and where you are in it, or if indeed you sit at the Right Hand on High.

    Jesus came to tighten the requirements of the Law such that no-one could fulfill it except Him – that is what the Beattitudes are about – a refinement of the Law. He fulfilled the Laaw and agve to His disciples a New Law, a New commandment – only ONE!

    New testament churches which preach or proclaim the 10 commandments are Pharisaical and hypocritical. I utterly reject the Hebrew Roots movement – google “Noahide Laws”.

    Once more people – simply ask in faith – ask Jesus, and then let it go – the answer will come when HE decides that you are ready for Him. In the meantime you will serve the abomination which you worship. Sorry, that is how it is and that is why Jesus is coming back. The Circ is in a much worse state than it was when Luther did his thing – the selling of indulgences and the burdens of the Pharisees are much more subtle now.

    As to witchcraft – when we pray, we to pray the will of God, and not our will – God’s will is to be our will. There is alot of delusion about free will – you actually need a FREED WILL. Prayer is the communication OF God – when He speaks to His prophets, they then speak His will into being in the earth. Churches aso often reject the men of God sen to help them. I once wassent to warn a pastor of a devil in his church and the danger it represented – he rejected my approach, which was quite timid at the time as I did not wich to offend him – it cost him his new born son and several members of his congregation – one whom I loved dearly.

    It centred on a woman who had a Jezebel spirit. The other names of Jezebel (remember, satan mimics God) are Columbia, Erica, Liberty, Diana, Artemis, Oestre, Lilith, Babylon and Circ. Different name – same spirit. The Holy Spirit is the “feminine” of God – whioc made Man in His own image – male and female – which is why the Aramaic refers to the Spirit of God in the feminine gender.

    Jezebel is the counterfeit of the Holy Spirit – and her partner in crime is Ahab (Uncle). She seduces and captures men. Mammon comes from Manouhmah, again Uncle – hence you cannot serve Father and Uncle.

    The jibe about the pricks was a bit below the belt, but nevertheless true. Paul besought the Lord three times to remove his thorn, but was told (by fairies apparently) that “My grace is sufficient for you.”

    Paul’s thorn was his unresolved Jewish religious leavening which was worked out over many years as he framed the New Testament (which starts at Acts). The Jews had a special task force set up to harry and hound him – to beat him mercilessly – to try and rip up what he was laying down. What has changed already?

    I, like Paul, do not pretend to have attained, but I press on toward the mark. Paul told us in 1 Cor 13 that when maturity comes, then we see face to face (are you going to wait unti you die?). Jesus told us to be perfect (in love) even as your Father in heaven is perfect (in love).

    The impediment to this is the goodness of the law and religious tradtion, which RENDERS THE WORD (Jesus) of no effect in our life.

    I asked Him “Why the cross, why the sacrifice, why did you have to do it that whay?”

    “Ian, creation is My responsibility – I had to do it.”

    Now, I shall ask you a question which Jesus used to challenge me. If you were cast up on desert isle, with no means of communication, no bibles, no books, no concordances and dictionarie, no computer, no TV, no one else – nothing – just you (and Jesus of course) – what would you do for your daily Manna, where would you get your fellowship, where would you bet your information and or revelation?

    My thanks to the hell hounds is genuine – at least you have the strength of your own convictions – so much that they imprison you – but it is God who has combined all in disobedience so that He might has mercy on all. It is these pricks in our eyes (motes?) and thorns in our side (ever tried removing a thorn in your side?) which God sends us to obviate that which remains of our own offences such that we might give them up to God to be expunged as we see that His grace is sifficient for me and thee.

    We attract them because of our own unresolved issues – this is how unforgiveness works – we attract the very thing we despise because we hide it in our heart and defend our dysfunction from the redoubt of OUR stong tower (to the heavens).

    When you (and I) have truly laid down our lives, we will look up to everyone – there is only One foundation for our faith, and that is the resurrection – as long as we are still under judgment (like the unworthy servant) were are nailed to our own tree and not free to walk in the Power of the resurrection. Jesus said to take up your cross daily and to follow Him. OK, so where is His cross? How do we follow Him (note too He did not say to worship Him, He said FOLLOW ME and worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth).

    Does Jesus have a cross on His back? So, what might “Take it up mean” and what is this burden that is preventing you from entering in to the kingdom and following Him in the Power of the resurrection?

    The gospel of Jesus is very simple – it was, and still is, “Repent (exchange your way of thinking for My Mind, for the kingdom of God (I AM) approaching.”

    Paul’s gospel was to preach the HOPE OF THE KINGDOM.

    Again, from the top – just agree with me that Jesus will teach, by His Holy Spirit, whosoever needs to hear whatsoever.

    They blocked their ears and ran at Him and sought to throw Him off a cliff – and these were His own townspeople! But no prophet of God is accepted among his own – don’t be guilty of the blood of the prophets – God is not mocked. Shalom folks.

    (Ask Rod, formerly of Life Changers in Noosa, what happens to pastors who reject God’s messengers and brand them as false prophets.)

    By the way, if any of you want to pray directive prayers (willcraft) they will come back to you multiplied – so just pray this simple prayer “Father, yor will be done in all our lives, in Jesus’ Holy Name. OK? Is that simple or what! 0(:->)

  99. 17. And from Miletus he sent for the priests of the congregation of Ephesus to be brought to him.
    18. And when they came to him, he told them, “You do know that from the first day that I entered into Asia, how I have been with you all the time*.
    19. “As I performed God’s miraculous works benevolently and with tears, and while being tested by those who were wont to bring against me the treachery of the Jews.
    20. “And I did not preach to you about anything that represented material gain for yourselves, while I taught you in the market places and in the houses.
    21. “While I was a witness to Jews and Aramaic speaking people* regarding the Grace of God and the Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    22. “And now I am bound in the Spirit, and I am going to Jerusalem, and I do not know with what I will be met there.
    23. “Whereas the holy Spirit testified to me in every city and He said, ‘Imprisonment and tribulations are destined for you.’
    24. “Except, I’m not worried about myself, as my journey and mission come to an end, those that I received from our Lord Jesus, to testify regarding the faithful anticipation of the grace of God.
    25. “And now I know that again my face you will not see, all those of you to whom I went around preaching the Kingdom.
    26. “And because of this I testify to you this day of days, that I have been cleansed from all your blood.
    27. “For I did not cease to declare to you everything according to God’s will.
    28. “Therefore, take care of yourselves, and of all the congregation in which you have been appointed through the holy Spirit as overseers, to shepherd the church of Jesus Christ, that which he established* by his blood.
    29. “For I know that after I go, that there will enter among you pretentious* wolves that are not loyal to the congregation.
    30. “And from you also, some of your own men will rise and speak fabrications, so as to round up disciples to follow them.
    31. “Because of this you should bear in mind* that for three years I did not rest day and night while telling you with tears, one by one.*
    32. “And now I commend* you to God and the Manifestation of Grace, that can fortify you and give you inheritance with all the saints.
    33. “Money or gold or fine clothes, I did not cherish.
    34. “And you know well that my needs and [the needs of] those who are with me have been served by these hands of mine.
    35. “And I have shown you everything, that this is how you should perform your duty and to minister to the ill, and to cherish the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, because he said, ‘Blessed are those who give more than they are given.’

    *20:18 Lit. Ar. id.: “Season.”
    *20:21 Lit. Ar. id.: “Aramaeans.” The substitution of “Greeks” here is a major falsification of Scriptures.
    *20:28 Lit. Ar. id.: “Gained” or “acquired.”
    *20:29 Lit. Ar. id.: “Imposters.”
    *20:31.1 Lit. Ar. expression: “Be looking and remembering.”
    *20:31.2 Lit. Ar. expression: “To human [being] human [being.]”
    *20:32.1 Lit. Ar. idiomatic figure of speech: “Hasten.”
    *20:2.2 Lit. Ar. idiomatic figure of speech: “Build.”
    *20:35 Lit. Ar. idiomatic construction: “Blessed is he/she who gives more than he/she is consecrated or endowed.” Seldom is the gender indicated in Aramaic grammar, thus most everything is intended both for men and women. In English translations “he” is invariably indicated as the gender. Since this is a peculiarity of English, I have substituted the plural “they” whenever I could, to address this problem.

    http://www.v-a.com/bible/

  100. @ Ian – Let’s be biblical for a change, your experiences are either of a pyschological nature or demonic deception.

    The Bible is sufficient for us as believers, does the bible say we need to see or experience heaven in our lives? Nor am I encouraged or blessed in any way by your “experiences”, only disturbed and saddened for you in particular and for those you may be leading astray.

    What reason do we have to believe that the Lord wants us to know more about heaven than He has revealed in His word? We are to desire heaven primarily to be with Jesus, something at this time we are only able to view through a glass darkly.

  101. Ian your comments read like Dr Seuss'”Green Eggs and Ham”, its just a bunch of unintelligble nonsense and random thoughts cobbled together, there is no structure or flow of ideas. I really have no idea what you are taking about.

  102. @Ian
    “Ask Rod, formerly of Life Changers in Noosa, what happens to pastors who reject God’s messengers and brand them as false prophets”

    AU CONTRAIRE – ASK FALSE PROPHETS WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO PURPORT TO SPEAK FOR GOD BUT TEACH H E R E S Y AND TWIST GODS WORD

  103. Now steady Teddy, or is that Theodore, Edmund, Theobold, Ted? Jesus said that anyone who causes one of those who become as children to be misled or betrayed, it would be better that he have a donkey’s millstone about his head. I take this seriously. (Jesus once told me that when He said it was better, He meany, IT WAS BETTER! We so often comprehend from a condemnatory mindset what God intends as a grace.

    5fer, I gave you the answer but you would rather inflict insults. Are you upset thaqt true prophets of God are saying that your precious monetary system is about to collapse – how will you ever fund your retirement in Lala land? Get a grip guys, the ride is gonna get rough.

  104. Sorry Joey, I missed your effort – what was that about age lasting correction? You would do well to get a better Bible, one that has not been twisted by the Catholicks. My point was that Luther was accused of extrabiblical revelation – he was considered to be utterly radical and heretical and worthy of death.

    As for Universalism – I hate ANY ISM except baptism.

    This is one of the classic “damnation” scriptures as translated from the Aramaic by Aramaic scholar, Victor Alexander.

    33. “O, serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you run from the judgment of Gehenna?

    Now that’s funny, where is the word damnation or hell? In fact, show me where in the original languages of the written Word, the words hell, church, Easter, cross and crucify may be found?

    You strain at gnats and swallow a camel.

    Why can’t you simply agree that God’s will be done in all our lives, and that whosoever will hear whatsoever they need, and that by the Spirit of grace? Because you are trapped in your own leather bound lambskin prison.

    You like your leather pouch too much Joey, whcih would be great if you actually understood it.

  105. Hey Tin Hat boy, have you ever met William Tapley, 3rd Eagle of the Apocalypse and Co-prophet of the End Times?

  106. @ 5 PS – Any more of Ian and I may have to ask for a refund on the anti-virus programme I have installed on my computer.

  107. As one who eschews utterly any titles and those who pretend to be leaders, I find it amazing that you would put me in the same catagory as Tapley – not that I had ever heard of him – I am too busy keeping my family’s food on the table and my staff employed and helping other where I can.

    I freeze framed this guy and there is no light in his eyes – just a lot of fear it seems. Sure, there is going to be a war (unless you are a Preterit, Dominionist of Historicist, in which case your reality is entirely different it seems). And there is to be pestilence and plagues, famines of enormous scale, and your wealth will be worthless.

    Irrespective of what Obama does, or anyone else for that matter, it will serve the will of the Sovereign God, which is expressed in Ephesians 1:9-11 (how appropriate).

    Ephesians 1:9-11 (Amplified Bible)
    9Making known to us the mystery (secret) of His will (of His plan, of His purpose). [And it is this:] In accordance with His good pleasure (His merciful intention) which He had previously purposed and set forth in [a]Him,

    10[He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth.

    11In Him we also were made [God’s] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will,

    Now compare the Aramaic.

    9. And He declared to us the sermon of His will, that which from the beginning He had consecrated through him,
    10. The supreme reign over the fulfillment of all the Ages, so that everything that is in heaven and on earth is renewed through Christ all over again (from the Head).
    11. And we are chosen by him, according to how we were consecrated at the beginning, and according to how He wished everyone to be deployed by the intentions of his will.

    As you can see, they are largely uniform on the matter. Where the Hell-in-ized (per)versions are erroneous is that much of it is the mirror image of the Aramaic and so gives a view from the condemnation and conditional side of the paradigm instead of from the mercy and slavation side. Question, is Romans 8:1 a conditional statement or a statement of condition? The answer is in verse 9.

    Actually, I don’t know why I bother with this at all, actually it is all a waste of time really, a distraction due to my innate need to rescue people – I will just let it all play out – either way I will see y’all in heaven.

    And if one of you vicious sword wielding “Peters” wants to try some more of your nonsense on one who only came to warn you of what is to come, I can only say that am very disappointed that you would even have the temerity to call yourselves followers of Jesus Christ – except for one or two of you have spark of decency.

    Pray the prayer, if you dare, otherwise just continue to play Circe, why don’t you already. I am done here tooooooo. )))))))(<-:)0 Bye for now. I love you in the Spirit, but your flesh is corrupted by hate and your hell of judgment.

  108. Ummm….William Tapley’s spurious claim to be a prophet is based on no less testimony than yours, unless you call freeze framing a youtube clip and seeing how much “light” is in a persons eyes (what the hell is all that about) is a valid way of determining who is a true prophet…..evidently, he hears directly from God too – why is he not a true prophet…he is not talking the same crap as you and yet you both hear from God – whats that all about!!!

    His name is heaps cooler than your crappy name and he can play cools songs on the organ – I think I will keep him as my favorite false prophet for now…but I love seeing how false prophets react to each other -its like 2 ferral cats facing off!

    BTW I am not reading your Aramaic rendering of the text as you are begging the question of Aramaic Primacy in big way – its a bogus claim which you and handful of other nut cases promote – if you assert it – you prove it – otherwise give me the Koine Greek…

    I thought you said you were hauling ass end times boy?

  109. To quote that famous theologian Groucho Marx……

    “He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don’t let that fool you. He really is an idiot.”

  110. That it is because it is the LAnd of the Long White Glory Cloud. As for Greek, OK smartypants, try this on for size – what does the word stauros mean and what is its relevance? Look up cross and crucify in Vines. That’s a good place to start to unravel the religious trads which bind you…

    I am done with this daliance – your mind is so closed to the Truth it beggars belief. Maybe you are a dead eye dick too?

  111. Could you tell us how many records in manuscript form of the gospels in Aramaic exist – maybey there uz a shut load bro – in New Zealand cuzy bro!

  112. Ian Williams, Gehenna = hell

    Gehenna definition:

    American Heritage Dictionary: Ge·hen·na gĭ-hĕn’ə)
    n.
    1.A place or state of torment or suffering.
    2.The abode of condemned souls; hell

    Wikipedia – In both Rabbinical Jewish and Early Christian writing, Gehenna was a destination of the wicked. This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though English Bibles traditionally translate both with the Anglo-Saxon concept Hell.

    Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/gehenna#ixzz1BrAUDjkO
    http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

  113. Reflection Room: “Quote of the Week”

    “I think that the idea of a global financial catastrophe is a cultural meme (virus like idea) that we are seeing expressed and replicated in different forms.”
    Ravingpente……

    Response of person still engaged in the time/space continum:

  114. I enjoy your comments on Signposts02 Ian. You are welcome here with your views. I don’t agree with everything you say. But I appreciate the time you have put into your comments.

    Teddy and 5PS. Signposts02 as we know is a peculiar online community. I enjoy the quirks. Doesn’t mean I agree with every view. I hope that Ian learns from you guys and vice versa. I honestly believe believers can have spiritual encounters and I believe it is not a sin if people seek prophecy or have a desire to move in the Spirit.

    The Jesus experience that Ian had seems questionable. Only time, more bible reading and prayer will reveal to Ian if this encounter was of God or not. On the other hand- Ian, please consider what Teddy and others have said about your spiritual encounters.

    I thought I had a Jesus encounter when the ‘Spirit’ through me across the room. I’ve now come to believe, through other witnesses accounts, that I was demonically attacked as they witnessed me levitate and be thrown against the wall on the other side of the room. I honestly don’t know how I got there.

    After two years, I could only conclude that it was not of God but of the devil. I was foolish enough to believe that just because the focus was on the spirit that it was Jesus doing it all. I was wrong. It’s OK to be wrong. These experiences can grow our discernment and can help us grow in the Spirit what is of God and what is not.

    Some people do have peculiar gifts of the spirit. You may have one of them. I wish to encourage you to walk wisely with the bible in your hand and to keep a solid foundation in Christ and in your God-given human logic.

    Spiritual things can be a bit trippy – so we need a strong will and a mind solely placed in the spiritual reality, at the foot of the cross. I pray that you grow in greater wisdom, discernment and intimacy with your Creator.

    I would like to stress that your presence in welcome here.

  115. @ Specks – the only thing to be learned from Ian is how far into heresy and foolishness people are going.

    Something to be reminded of, especially for today, from Spurgeon…..

    “Dear brethren, you and I believe in the doctrines of the gospel. We have received the certainties of revealed truth. These are things which are verily believed among us. We do not bow down before men’s theories of truth, nor do we admit that theology consists in “views” and “opinions.” We declare that there are certain verities, essential, abiding, eternal, from which it is ruinous to swerve.

    I am deeply grieved to hear so many ministers talk as if the faith were a variable quantity, a matter of daily formation, a nose of wax to be constantly reshaped, a cloud driven by the wind. So do not I believe! I have been charged with being a mere echo of the Puritans, but I had rather be the echo of truth, than the voice of falsehood.

    It may be want of intellect which prevents our departing from the good old way, but even this is better than want of grace, which lies at the bottom of men’s perpetual chopping and changing of their beliefs.

    Rest assured that there is nothing new in theology except that which is false; and that the facts of theology are to-day what they were eighteen hundred years ago. But in these days, the self-styled “men of progress” who commenced with preaching the gospel degenerate as they advance, and their divinity, like the snail, melts as it proceeds; I hope it will never be so with any of us.

    I have likened the career of certain divines to the journey of a Roman wine cask from the vineyard to the city. It starts from the wine-press as the pure juice of the grape, but at the first halting-place the drivers of the cart must needs quench their thirst, and when they come to a fountain they substitute water for what they have drank. In the next village there are numbers of lovers of wine who beg or buy a little, and the discreet carrier dilutes again. The watering is repeated, till, on its entrance into Rome, the fluid is remarkably different from that which originally started from the vineyard.

    There is a way of doctoring the gospel in much the same manner. A little truth is given up, and then a little more, and men fill up the vacuum with opinions, inferences, speculations, and dreams, till their wine is mixed with water, and the water none of the best. Many preachers—and I speak it with sorrow—have built a tower of theological speculations, upon which they sit like Nero, fiddling the tune of their own philosophy while the world is burning with sin and misery. They are playing with the toys of speculation while men’s souls are being lost.

    Much of human wisdom is a mere coverlet for the absence of vital godliness. I went into railway carriages of the first class in Italy which were lined with very pretty crochet-work, and I thought the voyagers highly honoured, since no doubt some delicate fingers had sumptuously furnished the cars for them. The crochet work was simply put on to cover the grease and dirt of the cloth. A great deal that is now preached of very pretty sentimentalism and religiousness is a mere crochet-work covering for detestable heresies long since disproved, which dared not appear again without a disguise for their hideousness.

    With words of human wisdom and speculations of their own invention men disguise falsehood and deceive many. Be it ours to give to the people what God gives to us. Be ye each of you as Micaiah, who declared: “As the Lord liveth, whatsoever the Lord saith unto me that will I speak.” If it be folly to keep to what we find in Scripture, and if it be madness to believe in verbal inspiration, we purpose to remain fools to the end of the chapter, and hope to be among the foolish things which God has chosen.”

  116. @Teddy – wow no one says it like Spurgey..

    “I have been charged with being a mere echo of the Puritans, but I had rather be the echo of truth, than the voice of falsehood.”

    DAMN! I wish I used that to respond to TVD when he was accusing me of not being “original” with doctrine!!!

  117. Consider it said! I’m sure, as quoted on the Seinfeld t-shirt “they cannot look away” (from SP02)….

  118. My God, I simply cannot believe that you guys can be so nasty – and you are Christians already? What are you so afraid of?

    From the top, now let us all pray: Father, in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the only begotten Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Heaven and Earth, that whosever needs to hear wahtsoever will do so, and that by the Holy Spirit and not by any other spirit. Aa-meen (that’s Aramaic – Amen is the name of an Egyptian god, as in Tut Ankh Amen). OK? How can you lose? If and to what extent i am wrong, then I open myself up for correction – but are you open too, or do you know it all, already?

    14. And to the angel of the church of Laodicia, write: These are [the things that] says:

    The Aa-meen, the Witness, the Faithful, the Truth, the Head of God’s creation:

    15. I know of your works that are neither hot nor cold. Wish you were cold or hot.
    16. [But] since they are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I am preparing to reprimand you (give you of my mouth).
    17. For you say that you are rich and getting richer, and you have no need of anything; but, you do not know that you are confused, demonic, blind and barren.
    18. I advise you to buy from me gold that is forged in fire, that which [truly] enriches, and white clothing to dress you up, and [so as] the shame of your nakedness is not seen [by everyone,] and rub ointment [over] your eyes, so as you may see.
    19. To whomever I am merciful I redress and reprove. Thus, bear [my advice] and repent.

    It is people like you that are the very reason so many are leaving – I went to a church full of such – that church is now dead. You are so full of judgment and condemnation i am surprised you can draw breath.

    Religious killjoys, bigots, thorns, and pricks. You have no Power, nor will you have until you repent of your nastiness. I shake the dust from my feet.

    But Specks, i do have hope of you – the others will probably have to wait until they get to heaven to know face to face, as for now, they see in a mirror darkly (their own reflection).

    When maturity has come, then we are know, even as we are known. Spurgeon? He was as deluded as Wesley.

  119. So there we have the apparently, “got some good things to say”, acceptable Ian Williams yet again opining on scripture? So discernment is no longer a requirement when it comes to guys like this????????

  120. Ian, you remind me of the strange guy on the Mork from Ork show. I’ll see if I can find the guy’s name.

  121. Okay got it. Exidor from the Robin William’s show “Mork and Mindy”. Really showing my age here!

    I thought it was interesting following converstations between 5p, teddy and TV Dude. But you really add another dimension!

    There needs to be some kind of reality show with some Calvinists, some HIllsongers, , and then some super dooper spiritual people who get caught up to the third heaven most days before breakfast.

    Never a dull moment in the Body of Christ….

  122. “Amen is the name of an Egyptian god, as in Tut Ankh Amen”

    This is my one stop shop for theological education!

  123. “Spurgeon? He was as deluded as Wesley.”

    Mr Williams, please don’t take offense. But your comments really make me smile.

  124. Gandalf – why do you keep begging the Aramaic Primacy question when only about 3 other people in the world with turrets syndrome and other mental aberrations promote it?

  125. What, more insults? The Aramaic language is the ancient scibla language it is remarkabky similar to Arabic – remember how God made of Ishmael a great nation? They certainly have a truckload of oil.

    What, you mean God saved Ishmael and Hagar after Abraham tried to Ex them? Maybe you missed something? Aa-meen is Aramaic, adapted to Arabic, as is Allaha. But then Algebra is Arabic, as is Alphabet and Numeracy – you gusy are even bigger knee-jerks than I thought.

    If you want to know what your MAJOR problem is, it is called respect of persons – something God does not have for anyone. You are bound by your traditions, heresies, doctines of demons and your own peculiar lust – that you should have god to your self while you would ahppily sit by and watch untold millions go to you hell. You ae indeed in dange rof gehenna, but donlt worry, it will burn off all your religion. And not one of you has the strength of your convictions to come out from out from your own private pentecostal pseudonym pillbox – and you have the temerity to accuse other so having turret sydrome – i think that maybe you have three finger sindrome, yes?

    Chuckle, guffaw, snort… 0(:->) The Sanhedrin have got you guys totally hoodwinked…blind leaders of the blind…but it does not really matter Sonshine, the Truth will soon out and we will all be exposed for who we really are…for it is no longer I(an) who lives, but Christ which lives in me.

    The Babylon system is nearly done – not long now – it will all soon be cast down…cash in your chips kids, the casino is about to close. Whe Jesus tells you to sell all, gibe to the poor and folloe, be ready – keep your lamps filled, trimmed and ready, Teddy, GO!

    Now who is it, that you personally know, that you would like to see in hell? Hitler? Your Boss? Me?

    If words are the worship instruments of faith, then if you change the instrument, you change the outcome. SO, how many miracles – and I mean real ones, not just acts of providence, have been manifest at your hands this Century? I thought so, so go back to your disempowering traditions, Jesus will soon be back. And please, don’t try you powerless directive Pentecostal prayers – they will only come back on you 30, 60, 100 fold – just love me and agree with me that whosover needs to hear whatsoever will do so, and that by the Spirit of the Most High God. SO BE IT! LET IT BE SO! Hey, we could form the SO BE IT UNION! But don’t all rush in at once y’all.

    So tell me – do you know what lama, lama sabachthani means? I once had a revelation of this, so I ran it past an Aramaic scholar, who got snappy with me and asked me if I was a Aramaic scholar testing him. I said, “Nay sir, i am but a mere man who heard it in my heart, and also heard to run it by you”.

    You have way too much invested in your own delusions to worry about what may or may not be mine. The picture is much bigger than you think, and so is God.

    NUFF SAID!

  126. I tell you what I am afraid of Ian. God.

    I don’t fear Him enough though. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom” said Solomon. I fear God, as well as love Him for what he has done for me.

    Do you fear God, Ian? The very idea that that Muslim suicide bombers sincerity will take him to heaven makes Jesus out to be a liar or the Bible untrue. Both ideas completely undermine the good news.

    My God is not a liar. My God put the Bible into our hands so that we might know Him. He wants relationship. He wants our worship. We must worship God Almighty! Not God all matey.

    The lingo you use to describe your experiences tend to demonstrate you are of one mind with the Todd Bentleys, Bob Joneses, Paul Cains of this world.

    You claim to have visited Heaven. So has serial adulterer Todd Bentley. You claim direct revelation from Jesus Himself appearing to you in the flesh. No difference to practicing homosexual Paul Cain.
    You claim unique prophetic gifts. No difference to sexual predator Bob Jones who used his prophetic ministry to convince naive young women to accompany him to his office, disrobe completely and then he could lay on hands and ‘prophecy’ over them.

    And you want us to completely accept what you say at face value without questioning you, or trying to a handle on your doctrine. We would be flabby, gullible, naive Christians at best if we let you come in and take over the blog.

    You may have nothing to do with the NAR and the Elijah List mob, but you say very similar or even identical things.

    hmm.

    oh dear.

  127. I do NOT claim special, unique or peculiar gifts – you are putting words in my mouth – it is you talking, Bull.

    I very much fear God. The day after going to the throne room, I felt utterly bereft, I might say “dirty” – I asked Jesus why and He showed me what happens when a bright light shines in a dusty attic, all the stuff that has been hid there is exposed.

    I grappled for days with doubts as i was assaulted from all sides and from within. I was very new to this stuff, having previously been largely orthodox in my thinking.

    I listen for God’s voice among, and above, the hum of humanity. James Thurber; “It is better to ask some of the questions than to know all of the answers”.

    What you do not realise is that I simply want to provoke people to righteousness. I do not much care for or about the folk you have mentioned, except that they should find God’s grace themselves in their time of need.

    Back in 2001, one day while writing, The Lord just came in the room by His Spirit and loved on me – in a matter of seconds I had to say “ENOUGH, I am dying of love already!” It was so beautiful, so overwhelming, but my own flesh prevented me from allowing that grace from killing me softly. It was the most amazing. overwhelming, powerful, transcendant LOVE.

    My Jesus does not lie, where we fail in our understanding is that we have simply not yet fully laid down our lives upon that one sure foundation.

    Over the last 10 or so years, I have seen so many scriptures in the NEW DAY or LIGHT of the Lord – and I have the heart assurance that others are glimpsing such things too. God often works in spite of our defficiencies.

    I asked Him once “Why are you telling me all this stuff? and He said, “Because you asked…”

    ASK, so that your stength (joy) may be made full!

    As for paul cain, I once read how Knight of Malta Rick Joyner said that if the sinner does not hear you and the church, let him be unto you as a heathen man and tax gatherer. I suspected that Rick did not knwo what he was saying. I asked Jesus for His Mind on tha matter, and heard, “Look up what I said about such people and what my attitude to them was. (He made the Pharisees mad because He ate with them.)

    My point is Bull of Bashan, I have been bashed about but I still come back for more becasue I love you all, but you are very hard work with your stoney hearts.

    Now, from the top: When were you saved, given that God had a LAMB SLAIN as it were, FROM BEFORE CREATION?

    The fundamental failing is not knowing what NEW means, as in a NEW commandment, yet not NEW but OLD, or original, or AS FROM THE BEGINNING.

    Back when Paul was preaching the HOPE of the KINGDOM, there was a Jewish task force hounding him wherever he went, trying to put people back under their Law.

    They used to BASH him too – continually. When I studied Paul’s life it stood in stark contrast to what i saw in the Church. At one stage all the Christians abandoned him except two – kind of like Jesus, huh? And if you truly follow Jesus you will be a partaker in His sufferings.

    No one, apart from John – the apostle of Love, and Mary, who sat at His feet, even came close to understanding what he was about – which was His Father’s business.

    Do you think that the Jews sat around for nigh on 1900 years while the Circe grew, and did nothing? They where there right from the start, leavening the Gospel with their lies and their traditions, twisting the truth, tweaking it sublty to put the Circe off course, and by the time of the Reformation they were so at variance with God that by the time God raised up Napoleon to deal to the Pope, they had killed more believers than Islam and all the so-called enemies of Christ combined.

    The Family Tree of Churchianity really does have Jewish Roots. Why do you think that they who say they are Jews and are not and do lie, own most of the world and largely determine what you believe by their leasvening? I deal with these people, I know what they are really like – THEY HATE JESUS more than ANYTHING ELSE – and they hate Christians too – but they will look you straight in the eye, and lie, lie, lie until you die, die, die. And there are plenty of people in their botnets who are like stalled cattle – Goyem – feeding their system until all is nearly under their sway. You have to have God show youn the big picture.

    You are looking in a darkened mirror and seeing most everything backwards, and do not realise it, and are consumed by your own lusts, your own desires which are at variance with God’s heart, and I do not know why God has not granted you repentance to the acknowledging of the Truth – perhaps it is as you said, you simply do not fear him as you ought – but the answer to that is simple – Ask, so that your JOY may be made FULL – but in order to be filled with love and grace, you have to emptied of hate and conditionality.

    For the kingdom of God is PEACE. JOY and RIGTHEOUSNESS in the HOLY SPIRIT.

    The fundamental – as in FUND A MENTAL – problem is that your sources of water are sullied by the Sanhedrin – they have been pissing in the water since day one and leavening your loaves. The Jesuits say, “Give me that child and we will give you the man. Ask Jesus to drive out all you religious leavening and replace it with His. It won’t hurt a bit…NOT! And learn to drink from your own cistern and to eat from your own storehouse.

    Ask Chris Anderson of Little Flock what happens when you really let Jesus into your attic, but it is not automatic and usually comes as a result of being so sure of your rightness that God has to throw you a line with a baited hook to draw you out, but praise be to God, for He is A CATCH AND RELEASE FISHER OF MEN! Now that is good preaching!

  128. Are “religious spirits” demonic?

    Just asking – feel like I’m reading the script from “The Exorcist” (rewritten by Ian).

  129. My problem is that i can be a smartarse – i know that – but God is working through it with me….

    My wife says my greatest talent is my ability to be able to offend almost anyone – just like Jesus, huh?

    Isaiah 28:13 (New Living Translation)

    13 So the Lord will spell out his message for them again,
    one line at a time,
    one line at a time,
    a little here,
    and a little there,
    so that they will stumble and fall.
    They will be injured, trapped, and captured.

    He is a stone of stumbling and a Rock of offence.

    Anyone who causes one of these who have determined to become as little children that they might know Me, it is better that he have a donkey’s millstone about his head and be cast into the sea – Jesus is both the cornerstone AND the grindstone. Open your heart to Him and let Him tell you what His Book really means – it is so brilliantly beautiful, far more so than you could have ever imagined – and not at all as you have been taught.

    Put on a teeshirt with a message on it and then look in your mirror with the light way down low. Get the picture? Paul said that when (as to the degree that) maturity has come, that we know, even as we are known.

    You have been sucked into putting off until heaven what God has granted you for NOW! Ask.

  130. Your not offensive Ian, your a religious nut.

    I have been accused of alot of stuff on this forum, but never being a pentecostal!!! LOL – Anyway, I dont see why you have animosity toward pentes when you make your garden varity shit nuts pente look like a presbyterian…

    You are still begging the question of Aramaic Primacy (the nutty theory that the Christian New Testament and/or its sources were originally written in the Aramaic language as opposed to Greek (the rational and dominant scholarly view)).

    So your big life changing revelation is that you have discovered the presence of an Aramaic quotation in the Gospels (Eli Eli lama lama sabachthani) !!!! wow -did you also know that this quote is one of FOUR brief statements or words in Aramaic made by Jesus in the Gospels…..

    We have NO RECORDS in manuscript form of the gospels in Aramaic. There are NO ARAMAIC DOCUMENTS of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John….

    Sorry to rain on your Glowwry Dust Parade old boy, but Im afraid that the Christian New Testament and the Theopneustos Word of God was originally written in the Greek language

  131. What about the Dead Sea Scrolls? You are all way to leavened for my liking, so i am leaving you to it – be happy to be part of the Evil Empire and be bought off for a bit of brass – VC – sheesh – we got one too, only cost us a million or two.

    Question, if, as some Christians maintain, the Haiti earthquake and its historical poverty are due to Voodoo, then what was it you guys did to offend God which resulted in the floods and fires, and what about our earthquake? Sorry if I thought you were Pentes, but you all look the same to me – same tree, you see. See ya round – in a few years you wont be so quick to judge me….bye for now.

  132. What about the dead sea scrolls? Clearly, these were translated from the greek. They were also closely associated with early gnosticism. The gnostic gospels were also in the mix along with ancient copies of Isaiah.

    While the basic critique that we are way too greek in our thinking is true and that we need to return to our hebrew roots we cannot do that on the basis of a lie. The lie being that the aramaic translation is the original one.

    Paul wrote letters to the churches in greek. The old testament was in Hebrew. The earliest references to Pauls letters amongst the letter of the early church fathers was in greek. The concepts are presented in the various greek tenses. We need a jewish understanding underpinning our understanding of the greek text.

    As Ian has already indicated, the aramaic version presents a radically different context or idea in some of the verses he has quoted.

    We need to be very careful when we look at translations. When a team of translators has been involved, that is much much better than a lone translator. However, the most popular versions today aren’t even translations.

    “The message” book is not a valid translation. I have a copy of the new testament paraphrase … these days it is just to remind me how bad a version it really is.

    We need to be careful when we read a translation.

    I prefer the Nearly Infallible Version. (That’s what NIV stands for isn’t it?)

    Shalom

  133. I guess I should tell you how I encountered Vic Alexander’s excellent translation of the Ancient Aramaic texts, as preserved by the Eastern Church. Like all translators, there are times that he too succumbs to the ready temptation to revert to conventional church wisdom. If it comes though a man, it invariably has some spin, or has been spun. This is why I believe that I was twice challenged by the Spirit of God in listening for His heart on the matter by His question, “How would you hear me if you not have a Bible, indeed, how did they who wrote it do so?”

    About 10 yrs ago, I heard the Holy Spirit say that He wanted me to write. Not really knowing exactly where to start or what to do, I thought that it might be prudent to first look into how the writer of the Epistles began and ended. I happened to be looking at the end of Acts, when my eye kind of drifted, almost of its own accord, over to Romans where I saw the verse 1:16, go bold, reverse as it were, and leap off the page, hitting me between the eyes. The revelation which hit me was “The Power of God IS the good news” which blew my mind! – I asked inwardly for confirmtion and heard, “For the kingdom of God is not in WORD but in MANIFESTATION OF POWER.” Jesus is the POWER OF GOD made manifest.

    A while later, at a meeting, while one waffled on about something, I was glancing at the end of Luke when the words of Jesus came alive and I knew what Lama, Lama, Eloi Sabachthani meant. A while later, an old acquaintance from WOF days rang and asked me and said, “Give me a scripture, any scripture”. Romans 1:16 came to mind immediately, so he read it to me from an Aramaic Trans he was all amped up about. I just about fell off the other end of the line, it stating, “For He is the Power of God!” and that this was the good news. The good news is the manifestation rather than the message – which came first – the chicken or the egg – the manifestation or the message?

    In a while I began to communicate with Vic Alexander, running things past him which I heard as God began to give me access to His ‘Holy Spirit Thesaurus’, as it were. I would read something which would not quite seem right in other translations, cross reference with his and hear alternative translations in my spirit, which I would run past him, and when I asked him about Lama, lama, he thought that I must be taking the micky, winding him up or testing him to see if he was the real deal. I assured him that it simply become my habit, when I read something which seemed to read wrongly, to ask God what He had to say. The accuracy of my received knowledge of Aramaic basically blew him away. I even had the temerity to tell him that the Holy Spirit had told me that he needed to go back and hear him again on a few points where his trans had avered to conventional wisdom – which was a bit more than his pride could take.

    There is no perfect translation, they all have their strengths, weaknesses and leavening, God often working in spite of them rather than because of them. He later opened to me that the Higher Power which every soul is subject to is the CONSCIENCE – the WORD OF GOD writ on the tables of our heart, but all to often overlaid with the stoney tables of the Law, making us religiously hard hearted.

    I am curently writing two missives which will doubtless be branded either mischievous or misapprended – the things which I have seen recently further confirm how twisted the church is – study out the etymology of the word church, churchman, and yes my door is open, I do not seek a following but rather that you walk your own Emmaus Road experience and work out your own salvation with all due reverence to who walks with you. Remember, when the people of Nazareth tried to take their Rabbi out and throw Him over a cliff because He told them that the very scriptures which they worshipped and adored and treasured were made manifest before them, and eventually they hated Him so much they nailed Him to a tree? Dare we crucify Christ anew in our carping criticism of those who only seek to follow Him? And I most decidedly do not have a Messiah complex nor seek a following.

    When Jesus began to go about everywhwere proclaiming, and affirming with signs following, “Repent (or exchange your way of thinking for Mine), for the kingdom (or governace of God) is approaching – I AM APPROACHING!”
    (What is the gospel message of Jesus? It is PROCLOMATION OF THE POWER OF GOD!”) The king and the kingdom are the same, but His kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD, it is of the inner workings of the heart, the conscience, the Law of Love (as opposed to the Law of Moses), writ large upon the tables of the heart, the higher Power to which every soul is subject – He is the Potter, we are the clay.”

    My door is open churchman, I would love to discourse with anyone who is honest and brave enough. And my wife is one of the most prophetically perspecacious people I have ever met, yet very simple and loving and caring. I am not a braggard, I am trying to get through to you guys that there is so much more to God than one book – which He told me once is like the cup to the drink, and I would love to have a “drink” with you – as long as you drink waters from your own cistern and eat from your own storehouse, and as long as you are not taking the mickey. I also have an uncomfortable manner of reading peoples mail; some love it, some hate it.

    I can tell straight away if one is walking in the resurrection or still nailed to the cross of their own judment, simply by if they preach 10 commands or PROCLAIM THE ONE! Jesus said “Take up you cross and follow Me.” You cannot follow Jesus in walking in the resurrection until you resolve the issue of the Stauros/cross. 0(:->)

  134. Awe come on, what’s wrong with little alliteration already? She saw through the shysters I use to hanf with in WOF days way before i did. Once bitten, twice shy of Circes. Besides, they can’t largely abide me – I stir them up to much. Had what you guys call church on the footpath today, with the very humble folk of poor means but who love Jesus simply. One of them is the most colourful extreme kind of guy who most people would judge as a looney – but he is the sweetesr, prayingist guy whose life was saved many years ago by a miracle and so he dresses outrageously and when people approach him, it is his openeing to witness to them. Wonderful guy, really loves Jesus and my God does he know some deep things, relational things, of the Spirit – so full of love for all. But most “believers” who do not know him would judge Barry Singh, a very colourful Maori Chinese New Zealander, as some kind of extreme loony! Thankfully, God does not do so, He is gracious and kind and loving of all mankind, you know, like in Timothy, “Jesus Christ, the savior of ALL MANKIND, especially those who believe.”

    Ya needs to understand the implications of soteria and sozo, and the small matter of Christ’s imputation on our behalf, and the Lamb slain from BEFORE the foundations of the worlds – before ever there was is. 0(:->)(((((((( JOY!

  135. “But most “believers” who do not know him would judge Barry Singh, a very colourful Maori Chinese New Zealander, as some kind of extreme loony!”

    Actually I thought ALL Kiwis were some kind of extreme loonies…

  136. The Holy Spirit just reminded me of something – of the 17 Germans who were sentenced to death at Nuremburg, 13 were avowed Lutheran, 3 Catholic, and one ahiest, who at least had the common decency to off himself. The rest snivelled and whined and repented – actually they were ministered to by a US Army Chaplain who made sure they had squared the ledger with the Lord and were sanctified unto death.

    Men who thought that they served God – men of whom some of you are disturbingly resonant. I think it is high time some of you did some very intense soul searching, lest you be in danger of offending God Himself. I will remove the symptom, but not the cause. Gutten nacht.

  137. By the way, by your own admission, you are a universalist. So why would they need to “square the ledger”?

  138. That is a good question, Teddy, that I’ve never thought of before. I don’t understand how a universalist would see a need to square a ledger. Ian, you’d be advancing my education to explain it.

  139. “men of whom some of you are disturbingly resonant.” referring to those sentenced to death at Nuremburg for war crimes.

    Ian Baby … people here have been talking about insults and going too far, but that takes the prize. Maybe you should rethink that one?

    Ian this is a serious question, but not meant to be offensive. You don’t have to answer it of course. But have you ever had treatment for mental problems? (Not an accusation or meant as a slur.) But, I am really interested.

  140. @ churchman – Ian denied the Holocaust in earlier comments, so we are dealing with a certain mindset.

  141. “One of them had the decency to off himself” ???

    Goering the fat killed himself rather than give in to Jesus. His daughter begged him to repent to Jesus but he pushed her out of his cell saying “you have your way and I’ll have mine.”

    Tragic.

    But Ian shouldn’t complain that those that repented should be “sniveling” … in fact, as he has expressed both a universalist viewpoint alongside being a holocaust denier, it begs the question:

    “What’s the problem?”!!!!!

    Still, since he has admitted he comes out of the WOF crowd, then he was already in trouble. It’s just moved on several levels. Now, we are all nazis for even having the temerity to question him closely about his unorthodox belief system.

    where did the eastern church get it’s bible from? Originally translated from the greek letters?

    oh dear.

    Well … orthodox Christianity will get a sound kicking from the likes of Ian W.

    When I consider the holocaust, I am reminded of Paul’s warning to gentiles in the letter to the Roman Church. “don’t be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.”

    That is not a reference to the martyrs of today. They are suffering for Jesus. Nations that previously accepted and assimilated the Jewish people in Europe turned their back on them, and even tried to exterminate them in only a period of months and years.

    There will be a very difficult time to be a believer in the UK within a very short space of time. It may not happen for a while but the situation will slowly reach a tipping point and then very suddenly the floodgates will open and disaster will strike.

    We’ll become the scapegoats for something and it’ll be people walking round with yellow cloth crosses stitched to our jackets.

    An irrational fear perhaps. But serious persecution of some kind will come. Mild persecution is already here with court cases against Christians who now have to allow gay couples to stay in B&B’s or pay a hefty fine … thus driving committed believers out of business.

    Into this moral vacuum, a backlash is starting. However the majority of people in this backlash are turning to Islam, not Jesus.

    100,000 ‘indigenous’ people in the UK in the last ten years have become muslims. There are now more active Muslims in the UK than regular church goers.

    (I include protestants, catholics, methodists and free-church groups.)

    It won’t happen for a while so don’t worry about it. Just keep your eyes open and keep reading press reports about the UK.

    David Pawson prophesied in 2002 that the UK would become an Islamic state. He said: “I hope I am wrong. I hope it is a false prophecy.”

    The trend is proving him accurate, no matter how horrified by the prospect he is. Running away to Canada or Down Under has never been so attractive.

    Shalom

  142. @Teddy, I missed the post where he denied the holocaust. Until I read that he was a bit of fun. I don’t listen to people who are that divorced from reality that they deny that. It’s just too absurd. So, Ian – you are seriously wrong. People who are do not accept that the holocaust occurred either have an agenda or they are so lacking in basic research and reasoning skills, and so easily deceived by half-baked websites that it wouldn’t surprise me what then end up believing.

    It would be one thing for a person in the pre-internet days living in some mountain somewhere with no access to libraries etc to deny the holocaust, but in this day and age with the information available, there is no excuse.

    btw, most of the people who deny that the holocaust happened, don’t believe what they are saying anyway. Because they often end up saying that the Jews deserved it. It’s evil or insanity, or most likely a deadly combination.

    Okay, that’s my last word.

    @Bull. Good post. But here is the problem. The anti-Christian crowd continue to push for an anti-christian society, and bash Christianity and Christians without the slightest fear. Then a certain fringe element of Islam carries out terrorist attacks based on the depravity of the West. But the Christianity haters in the West will not take on Islam.

    WHich is another reason why I think Christians should spend less time attacking each other.

  143. That’s a great website Yadda. I hope it is still online when it is time for my kids to study modern history!!!!

  144. “Germany’s unforgivable crime before the second world war,” Churchill said,” was her attempt to extricate her economic power from the world’s trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.” (Churchill to Lord Robert Boothby, quoted in the Foreword, 2nd Ed. Sydney Rogerson, Propaganda in the Next War
    2001, orig. 1938.

    “You must understand that this war is not against Hitler or National Socialism,” Churchill is quoted as saying, “but against the strength of the German people, which is to be smashed once and for all, regardless whether it is in the hands of Hitler or a Jesuit priest.” (Emrys Hughes, Winston Churchill, His Career in War and Peace p. 145)

    The Jewish holocaust was also part of the plan, to justify the creation of the Masonic “Jewish” state. Bernard Wasserstein writes, “During the first two years of the war, when the German authorities bent their efforts to securing the exodus of the Jews from the Reich and from Nazi occupied territory, it was the British Government which took the lead in barring the escape routes from Europe against Jewish refugees.” (“Britain and the Jews of Europe,” 1939-1945, p.345)

    The value of history is to remember that nothing is as it seems. It’s all being orchestrated according to a plan that is centuries old. As the twilight rays of Christian civilization fade over the earth, mankind enters a period of darkness and uncertainty.

    http://www.savethemales.ca/001071.html

  145. Dear, dear. Please read what I said and not what you think I did – of course they were not snivelling, read that again and see what i really said. We need to repent – of course – in order that our transition be entering in by the Narrow Way (Jesus) rather than by the Broad Way (and Babylon is quite a Broad!) of destruction, which means you have in all probability some weeping, gnashing and burning off to suffer for your unremitted sins. Ask a believing Jew what Gehenna is as distinct from your Greco/Etruscan underworld, aka Norse Hel.

    Yes, God does cut off branches, then He burns them, then He regrafts them in. If you only really knew what this metaphor means…let me put it this way, if you did not honour your utility companies with your obedience to their rightful demands, then they would cut you off until you obey – they don’t burn down your house or rip out the plumbing and wiring.

    Sin is separation FROM God, holiness is separation TO God – sin is state of being which results in acts of disobedience – it is vastly better to die in faith than to die in sin. You had no choice as to being born under sin, Adam made that for you – and the Last Adam made His choice for you also, so that righteousness might be imputed to your heavenly account. For all died in Him and all were resurrected in Him – all things were made in Him, by Him all things consist.

    There are two ways to see the situation, from the earthly, sensual, devilish perspective of condemnation and the Law, or you can see face to face, from the position of maturity in love. Jesus said BE YE PERFECT even as your Father in heaven is perfect – IN LOVE!

    One of the things the Lord assured me of years ago is that the Apostasy is real and it will be worldwide as they welcome “their” saviour, and that the spiritual Tsunami which will sweep the world will wash away the Old Way and bring the New. You think that you are New Testament believers, you think that you have all and are enriched….

    There is going to be tribulation such as has never been, nor ever will be again. Deception and delusion will be rampant, and the BEAST (British, European, American, Sionist Tyranny) will be given power over the saints, to kill and subdue them. (Simply put, the Beast is the flesh.) Don’t worry about the Muslims, Jesus has shown me how he deals with them – ask Him – they are astraw man to distract you from the real tyrants.)

    Vic Alexander in LA is the man you should direct your Aramaic questings to, better still, ask the Holy Spirit, you know, the Teacher of the Body. Do you really think that one only copy of every letter was ever in exictence or circulated? How do you think things got disseminated in those days? No PC’s, nor Bibles per se.

    And you, Circe-man, go study the etymology of Church or Circe as she is better known.

    My point about Germany is; How did the most Christianised nation in Europe, the home of Luther, Brahms, Beethovem, Bach etc, and so many great men of letters and industry, become the rabid dog of Nazism? Germany got a Hilter at its head because it had a lot of religion but not much faith, and it had a Hitler in its heart. Amerika, and Angle-land, are so like pre-war Germany it is chiling, and they have their own “Jews” (now Muslims) and Gypsys to exterminate.

    Question: Why did God save Hagar and Ishmael and make of him a great nation?

    Now, for all you guys and gals out there who wonder how it really works. When the disciples asked Jesus who might be saved, after that He had offended the rich you ruler, He said, “For the thing (salvation) which is IMPOSSIBLE with men (by adherence to the Law), is POSSIBLE with God (through the faith OF Jesus).

    Have you seen the spirit of a person as distinct from their gnarly old flesh?

    And I did not deny the holocaust – of course millions were sacrificed, even though the Germans first tried to get rid of most of them – the logisitics of killing millions are horrendous – look how much Iraq cost – but of course there is a payoff there.

    God said to me, “Ian, if I told you that, if for no other reason, the whole of WW2 happened so that I might draw Corrie ten Boom’s testimony out of the flames as purest gold, so that you might leven earn thereby, could you receive it?” Why was this child born blind, for whose sins? Not for his or his parent’s sins, but for GOD’S GLORY TO BE MADE MANIFEST! Jesus is the glory of God made manifest – it was for your sins that he was made manifest – but your sins were not for your destruction, but for His manifestation – where sin abounds, much more does grace.

    I am of that Israel which is of the Spirit – that body, not made with hands, forever in the heavens – what you call Church is not the answer, it is in fact the problem.

    He never did ask us to build a Tower, He said to count the cost – and the cost of tower building is our relationship with Him. Ask Jesus to show you whether you are in a Tower to the Heavens, or in Him.

    All I ever asked was that you ask Jesus. It is God has chosen the foolishness of contention, not me – I am merely compelled to complete it. 0(:->)

  146. @ Ian – Apart from His Word, and that RIGHTLY divided, God is not “talking” to you. (He told me He’s not! 🙂 )

    You come across as if you’re spinning out whatever comes into your head, more likely prompted by Satan who loves to be the centre of attention, than the Holy Spirit.

  147. WELL then, I guess that’s it – who am i to argue against God! Your God has said it…yes? Gee…

    Oh well, I am going to make a significant prophetic warning soon. You can weigh it and pin it to your fridge – if I am wrong, as much of me fervently hopes, then I will be most happy to be wrong and to repent. If I am right, then you will know that a prohphet is come among you. God bless us all – this is going to be huge, if so be it happens.

  148. As my fridge is one of those new non-magnetic ones, I’ll just let that slide onto the floor and under my feet where it belongs.

  149. @ Ian – what are the chances in the next 24 hours, a volcano will (continue) spewing ash, a cyclone will hit somewhere, a terrorist will blow himself/herself up, a mudslide will take out a village, a car bomb will go off in Baghdad, a bird will fall from the sky, a whale will beach itself, someone will win Lotto, a plane will be delayed, a false prophet
    will “prophesy”?

    The odds are pretty high, don’t you think?

  150. On 16 – 06 – 1984, God sent me to the Rugby Test between France and NZ at Lancaster Park, Christchurch, New Zealand. He had told me to go, but I had no money for tickets, so I said, “You want me there, then I guess you will have to provide”. I was given one ticket in Grandstand 3. While I walked to the ground (we lived nearby) I heard, “Claim the ground and all in it for ME!” Before the game started, someone had a heart attack up on the embankment – the hush could be felt by all. The final score, 10-9.

    10 – 9. France had been expected to win but their super boot was off his game that day. Note, FRANCE DEFEATED. 10, the Law and 9, God’s perfect judgment.

    11 yrs ago, I was up writing late one night, when a sharp earthquake shook our house and made me feel a sudden, primal fear as the walls shook disconcertingly – I prayed for God to take the fear from me and to show me what to do about the house. About 6 yrs ago, we were motivated to build a balcony/deck/fire escape and a carport along the weaker side of our 2 storey house – when it was finished, the builder said that the house should just about withstand any earthquake – this was not our original plan but appears to have been planned for us. At about that time too, I told the partner of a prominent property developer whilst in conversation that there would be a significant earthquake in 5 yrs time, but with no significant injury or loss of life,

    This event I intially saw as a one off, but now see more as a warning – like the Roman Armies marching past Jerusalem made the Christians scram and avoid the devastation of Jerusalem by God’s judgment wherein well in excess of 1 million Jews died – one of many Jewish holocausts.

    I felt at the height of the earthquake, the very anger of God. It was quite palpable – others felt it too. It was like “WAKE UP!”

    About 7 yrs ago I had a vivid, hyper real dream. I was outside a sports stadium built of grey concrete, which I ‘knew’ contained some 50,000 or so people. It was a major event – I sensed it was an International rugby game – the only event that would attract such a crowd in New Zealand. I was not sure whether it was Lancaster Park, Christchurch, or Eden Park, Auckland. I got the sense that this is what these grounds had been originally purposed for and that God would use them for massive revival meetings and that this was more about the character or scope of what was to happen rather than the specifics.

    Outside the gates of the Stadium (itself a vestige of Greco/Roman Games), a group of Christians had set up a display and were wanting to proselytize people as they left the ground. They had erected small Callico Booths at the grass verge of a small park like copse, creating a low but “Unpassable” barrier as no one wished to offend them by crossing it – but I sensed too that it barred the very way to this place appointed for peace and repose and rest from the “game”.

    (I heard ‘Booths’ and felt that this was somehow very important or germaine to the image – the Callico was also important – a tempory dwelling in time of danger.)

    The Booths contained images displaying issues which commonly confront and offend most Christians – abortion, drugs, alcohol, homosexuality, porn etc.

    The Booths were about 18″ wide across the back, and 12″ deep front to back, and 12 ” high, together forming a kind of moral or condemnatory barrier.

    I asked two of the people what they were doing – they were both known to me. One was an American, and represented the modernist “grace liberty” side of the paradigm, and she was somewhat given to be a little on the licentious side but had also had experienced some deep things of God, while the other was much more conservative, family oriented and orthodox in his views and was very British. He also had very much experienced the deeper and more mystical things of the Father too, yet his own ‘maturity’ was, I suspect, the source of his own pride. I suspect that maybe God was showing me them as mirrors of my own personna – but there is no temptation taken you but such is common to man, but God will, with the temptation, make the way of escape, so that you may bear with it.

    They told me, in all earnestness, that they had to convince the people of their sin – but from deep within me these words rushed to the surface, “No you do not! You need to PERSUADE THEM OF THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS” (which is the faith of Jesus for them, that they may join thereby and be converted).

    I awoke with a start – I had never heard such a thing but I knew that it was utterly right.

    Recently, I was reminded again of this dream, and the other night, heard that there would be an M8.4 earthquake, October 16th this year.

    A man came into my shop with his wife – we got talking and quickly established that we were believers in the same Jesus Christ and he was soon telling me of a dream he had where he was on a cruise liner coming to NZ to see the destruction wrought by a huge earthquake. He told me how that at one point, the ship went up what was once a river, the bed of which was littered with bottles, and that God had told him that this country had to repent of its booze driven culture. He was a retired businesman from Marlborough with health issues. Note every detail, this web gets even spinnier!

    About one year before the last quake, my oldest son had a vivid dream of trying to get home from town and work after a huge eathquake and having to clamber over rubble just to get out of the City. My youngest son had a dream subsequent to the September shake of another quake hitting and of the panic as people trying to get out of the City blocking roads, and of a policeman trying to direct the traffic. He described seeing the clock tower at the old central Rail Station on Moorhouse Avenue, with a few bricks missing due to the quake which had made the people panic, with the hands at 3:33. Then the earth began to move like he was standing on a jelly and then suddenly, a huge quake hit, causing widespread destruction and when he looked again, the Tower of red brick masonry with the clock had fallen. (Adam – ruddy – made of clay) Time is up!

    About May last year, God moved me to relocate my business right in the heart of the City – He told me it was to position me for what was to come. I had to take a 6 YEAR LEASE to get the deal I was after – and concerned about the economy and the future, asked God if that was wise, but He told me that they cannot charge you rent if a building no longer stands and not to concern myself with it.

    The number 16 has been very significant in my life – late last year, I was told that I need to be very conscious of 16 and of its significance. Two years ago, an antagonistic Australian whose ire I had aroused and who had stumbled at my preaching (even though he had seen ample evidence of my both hearing God and prophesying accurately), challenged me over when the great collapse would be that I was predicting, so I asked within “What month Lord?” thinking myself that the event would happen that year. I heard “October”. Well October came and went, and down the Emmaus Road I went.

    “What happened, Lord?”

    “You asked me what month, so I told you; you should have asked what year.” Gee thanks, now I feel real dumb – but that’s pride for you.

    October 16th, 1939, is the first day German munitions were directed against the British forces. 6 years later, on 16 Oct 1946, 16 Nazi War Criminals were executed, or more probably sacrificed, as 13 were avowed Lutheran and 3 Catholic. They were part of a setting up of the German people by very powerful forces, the prime puppet of these powers, being Winston Churchill, Grandson of the Duke of MARLBOROUGH, who at Blenheim fought the French, along with the Austrian General Prince Eugenie (Eu-Genie) and his armies. But wait, it gets even better.

    October 16th 1848, Marlborough, NZ, was struck by a M7.4 on the Awatere faultline.

    October 16th is also World Food Day. A few years back, I asked God how come He had let Marlborough slip from becoming one of the most Christian cities in New Zealand, a centre of innovation and some of the finest fruit in the Dominion of New Zealand, to becoming a veritable vineyard given to Bacchus rather than to God. It is also the site of the Waihopi Echelon Base, which was ‘attacked’ by scythe wielding Christian Peaceniks. When this went to court, I askd God what His heart was for these men, and He said, “They are to be set free, they are innocent, and I will destroy Waihopi Myself – eavesdropping is an offence to me. (Sorry if you are the echelon guy who has to read this – don’t mind me, I am mad you know…teehee)

    October 16th is the date of the first Rugby World Cup final at EDEN PARK, Auckland.

    October 16th is famous for another significant event on the Jewish Calendar, SUKKOT, or THE FEAST OF BOOTHS.

    I don’t know about you guys, but I might just pitch a tent that night and do the Booth thing myself……maybe….safety outside the camp…..

    I do feel that this is something of a Ninevah moment, and that if these food producing areas (World Food Day) were to repent of their greed and pride driven vitcultural activities, given that wine in Revelation is concerning wrath and ferment and fornication….that God would heal their land and judgment would be forstalled. I pray that this is so, that believers would be exercised to pray and save their communities from the wrath of Him who shall judge righteously all sin in the flesh. But sadly, I don’t hold much hope for such a proud generation. I have had other instructions specific to my own situation, but hardly ever before so specific and precise.

    I am taking this very seriously. At this very moment, I feel like a watchman on the wall. I deliver this message with fear and trembling, not at all lightly. If I am wrong, I will be very, very happy to be wrong and receive correction, even just correction – if I am right, then you will know that a prophet has been among you and that God is about to move mightily in the world on behalf of all men.

    And lastly, my Hebrew wife is descended from the same family as the Duchess of Marlborough, the mother of Churchill, so are our children. And my Great, Great Grandfather was a Master Mason who carved most of the significant stonework in all the Cathedrals and stone buildings in Canterbury.

    Shalom. God’s will be done. So be it.

  151. Wairau Valley, Marlborough – look it up on Google maps. I heard that the epicentre will be near the confluence of the Wairau River (Maori for mixed waters) and the Waihopai River (doubtful waters).

    I had forgotten that Blenheim is adjactent the main Alpine Fault, of which scientists from GNS are adamant that we can expect a major event at any moment from this particularly active fault. I looked up the GNS maps when I heard where to look and found a fault anomally at that point where the fault splits and which is a weak point. This is the main Alpine fault line. When it goes, it will be very ugly – I would take floods any day over what is coming. Both my sons have prophetic dreams, and their dreams of this, along with others, will put the fear of God into you.

    There have also been numerous prophecies, dreams and visions of a Tsunami wiping out Christchurch. I believe that this City has become something of an offence against heaven and it is going to be punished severely. There is a very nasty undercurrent in this city, and a Jezebel culture of epic proportions. There is rampant witchcraft, Freemasonry, occult practice and deviance and the nastiest religious spirits you will find anywhere – and a lot of racism too, but mostly very subtle – its alright, as long as it is all white.

    I am not entirely sure if the visions and dreams are portents of actual events, or if they are metaphors of what is to come spiritually speaking. I kind of think a bit of both – when my youngest son told me of his dream, the resonance of it was unmistakeable – and I took it very seriously.

    God’s hand of judgment is upon the land, but He so wants to be merciful to those who approve or appreciate Him, those who grasp hold of the kingdom, cling on to His garment and will not let go. It is going to get very tough. I have done a reprise of the material and made corrections and provided a link to the GNS website.

    He told me that in these days of tribulation, that whosoever cleaves to Him will not be disappointed nor beg bread. He also told me to make sure all my Insurances are up to date and a good survival plan in place. I think the last one was just a dress rehersal for the main show.

    Moderator, can you please remove the last post and I will send the update. If I am wrong, I will be only too happy to be, but I kind of think that it is already too late to draw back – what is sown in the flesh, shall be reaped in the flesh, and what is sown in the Spirit (and He saith unto SEED, as of ONE) is reaped in the Spirit. As He alone wills it be, so be it. I also heard today of a prophecy in America of an earthquake of Biblical proportions in New York on October 16th 2011. I have been convinced for some time the the Dow would crash so badly in October that it would be a veritable financial earthquake. Prophetic dreams are not always what they seem, but sometimes they come true just the way you see them.

    As for you Aussies, I am picking Australia to put NZ out of the world rugby cup, but then when the earthquakes happen, they will take NZ to their hearts like a wounded ANZAC.

  152. revision:
    On 16 – 06 – 1984, God sent me to the Rugby Test between France and NZ at Lancaster Park, Christchurch, New Zealand. He had told me to go, but I had no money for tickets, so I said, “You want me there, then I guess you will have to provide”. I was given one ticket in Grandstand 3. While I walked to the ground (we lived nearby) I heard, “Claim the ground and all in it for ME!” Before the game started, someone had a heart attack up on the embankment – the hush could be felt by all. The final score, 10-9.

    10 – 9. France had been expected to win but their super boot was off his game that day. Note, FRANCE DEFEATED. 10, the Law and 9, God’s perfect judgment. Note too the date.

    11 yrs ago, I was up writing late one night, when a sharp earthquake shook our house and made me feel a sudden, primal fear as the walls shook disconcertingly – I prayed for God to take the fear from me and to show me what to do about the house. About 6 yrs ago, we were motivated to build a balcony/deck/fire escape and a carport along the weaker side of our 2 storey house – when it was finished, the builder said that the house should just about withstand any earthquake – this was not our original plan but appears to have been planned for us. At about that time too, I told the partner of a prominent property developer whilst in conversation that there would be a significant earthquake in 5 yrs time, but with no significant injury or loss of life,

    This event I initially saw as a one off, but now see more as a warning – like the Roman Armies marching past Jerusalem made the Christians scram and avoid the devastation of Jerusalem by God’s judgment wherein well in excess of 1 million Jews died – one of many Jewish holocausts.

    I felt at the height of the earthquake, the very anger of God. It was quite palpable – others felt it too. It was like “WAKE UP!”

    About 7 yrs ago I had a vivid, hyper real dream. I was outside of a sports stadium built of grey concrete, which I ‘knew’ contained some 50,000 or so people. It was a major event – I sensed it was an International rugby game – the only event that would attract such a crowd in New Zealand. I was not sure whether it was Lancaster Park, Christchurch, or Eden Park (note the name), Auckland. I got the sense that this is what these grounds had been originally purposed for and that God would use them for massive revival meetings and that this was more about the character or scope of what was to happen rather than the specifics.

    Outside the gates of the Stadium (itself a vestige of Greco/Roman Games), a group of Christians had set up a display, wanting to proselytize people as they left the ground. They had erected small Calico ‘Booths’ at the grass verge of a small park like copse on a corner right adjacent the Stadium, creating a low but “Impassable” barrier as no one wished to offend them by crossing it – but I sensed too that it barred the very way to this place appointed for peace and repose and rest from the “game”.

    (I heard ‘Booths’ and felt that this was somehow very important or germane to the image – the Calico was also important – a temporary dwelling in time of danger.)

    The Booths contained images displaying issues which commonly confront and offend most Christians – abortion, drugs, alcohol, homosexuality, porn etc.

    The Booths were about 18″ wide across the back, and 12″ deep front to back, and 12 ” high, together forming a kind of moral or condemnatory barrier.

    I asked the two people manning the display what they were doing – they were both known to me. One was very American, one very British. They told me, in all earnestness, that they had to convince the people of their sin – but from deep within me these words rushed to the surface, “No you do not! You need to PERSUADE THEM OF THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS”. (He is made unto us righteousness, sanctification and wisdom….)

    I awoke with a start – I had never heard such a thing but somehow I knew that it was utterly right.

    Recently, I was reminded again of this dream, and the other night, heard that there would be an M8.4 earthquake, October 16th this year, in Marlborough Province, at the confluence of the Wairau and Waihopai Rivers.

    A man came into my shop with his wife at around the same time interval – we got talking and quickly established that we were believers in the same Jesus Christ and he was soon telling me of a dream he had where he was on a cruise liner coming to NZ to see the destruction wrought by a huge earthquake. He told me how that at one point, the ship went up what was once a river, the bed of which was littered with bottles, and that God had told him that this country had to repent of its booze driven culture.

    About one year before the September 2010 quake, my oldest son had a vivid dream of trying to get home from town and work after a huge earthquake and of having to clamber over rubble just to get out of the City. This was the same son who in the mid eighties asked me when the beginning of the end would be, and I had told him September 2008. Both he and my youngest son have had many spiritual dreams since their childhood – the youngest was caught up to heaven when he was 6yrs old.

    My youngest son had a dream subsequent to the September shake of another quake hitting and of the panic as he saw that the people trying to get out of the City were blocking roads, and of a policeman trying to direct the traffic. He described seeing the clock tower at the old central Rail Station on Moorhouse Avenue, with a few bricks missing due to the quake which had made the people panic, with the hands at 3:33. Then the earth began to move like he was standing on a jelly and then suddenly, a huge quake hit, causing widespread destruction and when he looked again, the Tower of red brick masonry with the clock had fallen. (Adam – ruddy – made of clay) Time is up!

    He described how he saw cars being tossed around like toys, buildings collapsing and of the earth opening up and belching smoke and fires and then of a great darkness coming over the land.

    This could only be a second quake triggered by the first, if indeed it was a prophetic dream. I have a friend whose family is also quite prophetic – his sister described having a vision some time back of Christchurch being utterly laid to waste, and of fires and smoke and darkness. I suspect that there are many more that have seen such visions and dreamed such dreams – probably 5000 or so.

    About May last year, God moved me to relocate my business right in the heart of the City – He told me it was to position me for what was to come. I had to take a 6 YEAR LEASE to get the deal I was after – and concerned about the economy and the future, asked God if that was wise, but He told me that they cannot charge you rent if a building no longer stands and not to concern myself with it.

    The number 16 has been very significant in my life – late last year, I was told that I need to be very conscious of 16 and of its significance. Two years ago, an antagonistic Australian whose ire I had aroused and who had stumbled at my preaching (even though he had seen ample evidence of my both hearing God and prophesying accurately), challenged me over when the great collapse would be that I was predicting, so I asked within “What month Lord?” thinking myself that the event would happen that year. I heard “October”. Well October came and went, and down the Emmaus Road I went.

    “What happened, Lord?”

    “You asked me what month, so I told you; you should have asked what year.” Gee thanks, now I feel real dumb – but that’s pride for you.

    October 16th, 1939, is the first day German munitions were directed against the British territory. 6 years later, on 16 Oct 1946, 16 Nazi War Criminals were executed, or more probably sacrificed, as 13 were avowed Lutheran and 3 Catholic. The one atheist had previously taken his own life. They were part of a setting up of the German people by very powerful forces, the prime puppet of these powers, being Winston Churchill, Grandson of the Duke of MARLBOROUGH, who at Blenheim fought the French, along with the Austrian General Prince Eugene (Eu-Gene) and his armies. But wait, it gets even better.

    October 16th 1848, Marlborough, NZ, was struck by a M7.4 on the Awatere faultline.

    October 16, 1916, Margaret Sanger founds Planned Parenthood which would eventually result in the massacre of many millions of innocents.

    It is also the anniversary of the the October 16, 1555 (1555 totals 16) burning of Ridley and Latimer, two of the three martyrs our founding fathers dedicated the three original city squares to.

    October 16th is also World Food Day. A few years back, I asked God how come He had let Marlborough slip from becoming home to one of the most Christian cities in New Zealand, Blenheim, a centre of innovation and some of the finest fruit in the Dominion; to becoming a veritable vineyard given to Bacchus rather than to God. It is also the site of the Waihopai Echelon Base, which was ‘attacked’ by scythe wielding Christian Peaceniks. When this matter went to court, I asked God what His heart was for these men, and He said, “They are to be set free, they are innocent, and I will destroy Waihopai Myself – eavesdropping is an offence to me. (Sorry if you are the echelon guy who has to read this – don’t mind me, I am mad you know…tee hee 0(:->)

    October 16th is also the date of the Rugby World Cup second semi final at EDEN PARK, Auckland.

    Australia, with its Cantabrian Coach, himself descended from the very first Scots settlers, will win the World Rugby Cup Final. Australia will then, as a nation, take its wounded comrade and close cousin, New Zealand, to its heart like a good ANZAC should. Much love, much love, and much wounded-ness to be healed.

    October 16th is famous for another significant event on the Jewish Calendar, SUKKOT, or THE FEAST OF BOOTHS.

    I have also been informed of another recent prophecy of a major earthquake for New York on the same date – so it could well be that this is a metaphor for financial collapse, or indeed the actual physical collapse caused by a major earthquake on Wall Street could trigger a systemic collapse. The ramifications are mind-boggling. I don’t know about you guys, but I might just pitch a tent that night and do the Booth thing myself……maybe….safety outside the camp…..

    I do feel that this is something of a Nineveh moment, and that if these food producing areas (World Food Day) were to repent of their greed and pride driven viticulture, given that wine in Revelation is concerning wrath and ferment and fornication….that God would heal their land and judgment would be forestalled. I pray that this is so, that believers would be exercised to pray and save their communities from the wrath of Him who shall judge righteously all sin in the flesh. But sadly, I don’t hold much hope for such a proud generation. I have had other instructions specific to my own situation, but hardly ever before so specific and precise.

    I am taking this very seriously. At this very moment, I feel like a watchman on the wall. I deliver this message with fear and trembling, not at all lightly. If I am wrong, I will be very, very happy to be wrong and receive correction, even just correction – if I am right, then you will know that a prophet has been among you and that God is about to move mightily in the world on behalf of all men.

    And lastly, my wife is descended from the same family as the Duchess of Marlborough, the mother of Churchill. My Great, Great Grandfather was a Master Mason who carved most of the significant stonework in all the Cathedrals and stone buildings in Canterbury. Perhaps tenuous, but connections never-the-less.

    Shalom. God’s will be done. So be it.

  153. Ian, I spent a few years in NZ. Without commenting on the accuracy of your prophecy (I can’t! but will note it on my calendar out of interest), I can say that the spectre of ‘The Big One’ is something I think of from time to time, making me glad to live in Sydney. I know we have our own issues here, but one day, prophecies or not, that big earthquake is going to come to NZ, and I would not want to be there when it happens. It is such a beautiful country; I do go back from time to time; I hope to never see such a disaster. The biggest earthquake I experienced there ws 6.7 on the Richter scale. Not a disaster. But you can’t ignore the fact of earthquakes living in a place that keeps trembling from time to time.

  154. The September shake was very frightening for most – if had not been prepared for it…my wife and I felt great peace at the height of it…very humbling.

    What gets me is the links adn events leading up to this point in time where it was kind of like putting a jigsaw puzzle together and suddenly finding the key piece to a corner and having that frantic little burst of activity associated with breakthrough seeing.

    I do not pretend to have attained, but I press on. The irony is that this shaking is what is going to trigger the greatest revival in all history. The KINGDOM CANNOT BE SHAKEN, though everything be shaken.

  155. Is RP/ FL/ DVT/ TVD (forget the name)/ CHIRPY etc, etc, etc all the same person? I am very confused.

  156. Hi Gys and Gals – have you heard about the latest earthquake? Well HELLO! There is MORE to come.

    Madam, with all due respect, it was not a NATURAL DISASTER.

    The other night I was told to look up who Matiu/Somes Island (the volcanic “plug” in Wellington harbour) was named for – as He had told me that there would be huge earthquake under it.

    He told me another time that the originally intended name for NZ was Aotearoa and that the NZ “brand” had been overlaid/enforced by the whites, who were also FreeMasons and adept at naming to impose or change meaning.

    Matiu was originally named by Kupe 1000 yrs before the white man renamed it.

    Kupe was a man of God, led by the Spirit of God. he was a Romans 2 man – one who obeyed the Law of God (which is the law of Love) by his very nature.

    I have not found any meaning for SOMES – split it becomes SOME S or SO ME S or SO MES and is an anagram of MOSES.

    MATIU means gift of God (Grace).

    I suspect that it was Somes who was the instrument by which they took the G out of GRACE and created the RACE issues which split this nation.

    This article is very interesting, contrasting the faith of the early Maori converts to Christ as distinct from those prosletyzed by the Anglicans and Catholicks.

    http://www.waitangi.com/religion/03.html

    I believe that the Sovereign Lord of Heaven told me there will be a 9.1 under Somes Island = possibly June 16th 2011. This was confirmed to me through my son, who had also been told the same Richter Force for the next Christchurch event as well – 8.6, epicentre under the Old Railway Station, October 16th, 2011.

    It is probable that the next event will be in the series will be in March and will involve the W’s – Wairau, Waihopi, Waitohi, Waiau, Wellington (June), Waikanae, Wanganui, Warkworth and Whangerei.

    Watch for AMI stadium to be fixed in time for a World Cup Semi to be rescheduled to ChCh to help us out financially, but which will end in utter disaster with the Stadium collapsing on 50,000 people. But then a reVIVAL will break out which will in its first day claim 50,000 for the kingdom.

    Most of the people who will be killed or wounded are the very ones who are the upholders of the SYSTEM and resistors to change.

    God told me that this countries problems centre on their unholy Trinity – Racing, Rugby and Religion, and that so much has been sacrificed to the Baals of Ball Sports.

    He also told me that the Maori hold the KEY to the salvation of this nation – John Key is not the messiah, he is the jailer – he is the (blind) leader of those who would shut up the kingdom against man.

    By the way, on the 22 02 2011, 22 people died in the tower of Masonry, the Christ Circe Cathedral.

    0(:->)

  157. Fall on the ROCK or the ROCK falls on you. I had only just said to two of my staff who were fearful of the earthquakes I prophesied that as long as they were near me, they were safe – God still “needs” me to be the servant He has called and equipped me to be. It seems like such a terrible thing which has happened, but it is all good. I have been literally bathing in revelation in the last few months – amazing. As a result of my forewarnings of the quakes and what was to come, and the visions which God had given my son, he repented and we were fully reconciled to one another – he apologised that he had alwasy thought me wrong and or crazy but that his eyes had been opened – what he saw changed him – especially as he had seen such a compelling vision of it about 15mths before it happened.

    This is every bit a God thing, but not as many might suppose. He told me that this was not HIS judgment, which is mercy, but OURS, and that if you come before the judge for a crime, it is not HE who is guilty. If you have not thrown yourself upon His mercy and loved others as he does you, then judgment awaits, but it is OUR judgment coming back upon us – He sends delusion from before the throne – He shall have no other God before Him.

    Remember how that I prophesied that NZ would be broken by apocalyptic earhquakes and that Aust would come to its aid like a wounded ANZAC? This will happen this year, and has already started.

    My son spoke to an Austrailan Policewoman who told him that she had dreamed of walking through rubble and silt last monday night, and was calledto NZ the next day. From henceforth, i shall refer to NZ as Aotearoa – its proper name. I guess maybe NEW ZEAL AND AOTEAROA might be acceptable.

    0(:->)

  158. @Ian…’ It seems like such a terrible thing which has happened, but it is all good.’

    Over 130 people in your community die in terrifying circumstances and you call it good! Even God wouldn’t call it ‘good’ if you were in any way right about his judgment.

    It doesn’t just ‘seem’ like a terrible thing has happened. It is a terrible and terrifying thing which has cut a deep wound in the very society you are, apparently, part of. Even those of us who not in NZ can feel the pain and loss.

    Yet you boast on your own achievements and invincibility in the face of great danger, without an ounce of compassion or mercy for those who have lost lives, amongst whom, I know, were God fearing Christian men and women, or for their relatives.

    Who gives a rip what you prophesy, frankly, if you have no heart? Who really gives a stuff?

  159. The death toll will be more like 300 – and I don’t get upset – Jesus told me let the dead bury the dead. They are safe with God. Trouble is with you social christians with your intellectual gospel is that you have no power so you call my faith boasting.

    Jesus was the most offensive man who ever lived – He was and still is a stone of stumbling, a rock of offence. Where were my community when we sent soldiers off to kill innocent Afghans and Iraqis? Get a grip – this is the end, friend, this is the end.

    About 125,000 people a day die, many of them so you can enjoy your chessebugers and fries and coke and cellphones….

    You religious people always hate the prophets, go back to your comfortable cardboard cutout Christ. There are to be something like 900,000 die in the next wee while – hope you will just as concerned about them. I have TONS of compassion – but I do not suffer fools gladly. I am warning everyone who will listen to save themselves from this and to cling to Jesus. I tried to warn the church in Christchurch that this was to happen and they dismissed me. What more can you do? But they are the blind led by the blind.

    In the meantime, how about healing the wounds with your original people? I sense you do not like darkies…especially as you have adopted the name of one of the most ardent proponents of the Evil Empire.

  160. By the way, the job of the watchman is to warn – if the warning is not heeded, his hands are bloodless. I warned many people that their would be many deaths in Christchurch due to people resuming a business as usual approach in their pursuit and lust of mammon. They kept telling me that I was pesimistic and should be more postive – I told them the red wire is positive – and a negative current will thrill rather than kill you. I am all about warning and teaching, but few want to know the Truth. It is time for this false gospel which Paul warned of, and which has dominated the Church/Circe Age, to be found wanting and utterly revealed for what it is. It has only been kept alive and perpetuated due to seasonal revivals. The church has been labouring under misapprehension since Nicea – it got religion and misery about then and that has been the mainstream ever since, until the happy, clappy mob of course. Religion is a drug – the most affordable, reliable, amenable, easily manufactured – and boy does it sell, just ask those tithe burglars! while faith is a struggling to enter into rest.

    So, what is your preferred brand?

    Just as the Anglo Saxons and others overlay their culture over the identity of this land, so too the culture of convenience has obscurred the hardness we are to endure to win Christ and replaced it with a get enriched quick christianity which is to real faith what MacDonalds is to real food.

    When all the folk were mourning Lazarus, Jesus wept – not for their tortured emotions, but for their unbelief. I hope that anyone unfortunate enough to attend my funeral will dance in joy and celebration that another child of God is coming home, released from this hellish earthly trial.

    Two weeks before the Masonic Anglican Cathedral fell
    I was privileged to see it happen in the Spirit – I thought to tell the Anglican Dean of Christchurch, but thought that he would surely dismiss my pleadings to be the ramblings of a lunatic, and so, demurred.

    (My Great, Great Grandfather was Northumbrian, via Melbourne Master Stone Mason on the job, and did all the sacred and mystical stuff both in then Cathoilc and the Anglican Cathedrals – as well as many other churches in Canterbury and Christchurch, while receiving close scrutiny and instruction for two years on the ancient mysteries of symbolism in stone – he was a quite brilliant artist, as was his son Claudius. He died of cancer of the mouth – very common with Freemasons.

    He was also the regions most prolific monumental mason and had a workshop next to the Central City Cemetary – spooky huh?

    My son Kane saw the Cathedral fall in a vision when he was seven. He later saw it all in a vision one night about 15 mths ago when he was feeling particularly bereft and God showed him a snapshot of his future. (When he was born, the Spirit of God came in the delivery room so powerfully i felt tiny – and i did not even particularly believe then!)

  161. @Ian…’Two weeks before the Masonic Anglican Cathedral fell
    I was privileged to see it happen in the Spirit – I thought to tell the Anglican Dean of Christchurch, but thought that he would surely dismiss my pleadings to be the ramblings of a lunatic, and so, demurred.’

    So much for the bold prophet who’s not afraid to offend. You backed off because he might dismiss you as a rambler! Is that all?

    Jesus doesn’t offend me.

    Your words are offensive, but for different reasons. Please don’t align your offensive approach with Jesus’ words which offend the Pharisaic. No comparison.

    Sure, be the watchman, but give us more than there will be an earthquake in Christchurch. Blind Freddy knows that. Your scoffing after the event is a slap in the face of your own community.

    Anyone can speak the obvious. I predict there will be cyclones in Darwin and Cairns soon, and trees will be blown down. I predict the sun will come out in the desert regions of Australia this year. Red sky at night, etc..

    You think we don’t know what Biblical New Testament prophecy is, and how to discern a true or false prophet?

    Jesus told us that there will be cataclysmic events, including earthquakes, and these would be the beginnings of the pangs pointing to his coming. He said we were not to be dismayed.

    You seem to want to frighten people into bowing down to your amazing powers of perception. Your opening remarks on this thread did not point us to Jesus, but to the amazing Ian Williams. Sorry! You missed the chance there.

    We know what things will take place along well defined and articulated fault lines. The people who live there know the risks, but your claims are extraordinary when you claim they are God’s judgement, rather like Danny Nalliah saying God sent fires to a high fire risk zone in Victoria, and floods to a flood risk zone in Queensland. Easy prophetics for attention seekers. God’s judgement, he says.

    God’s long-suffering, not wanting any to perish, but all come to the knowledge of Christ, my Bible says.

    We know terrible things will take place as this earth groans in anticipation of the redemption of our bodies, but this doesn’t mean we dismiss people’s tragic deaths as not worth considering, as you do.

    Jesus was also the most compassionate of men. He came to save us, not condemn us.

  162. wow… this has been entertaining…
    why does christianity have to get so weird??
    I will wait until the end of the year and see if the dow is halved and if there is an earthquake on June 16.

    @5PS – you made me laugh!
    @Ian – not sure what to make of you…you seemed ok at first then you said some stuff that concerned me…

  163. Ok … here’s a question for you all.

    Will a person’s sincerity in a false faith save them from judgment and hell? Or only the forgiveness and mercy of Jesus?

    In other words, is it only believers in the real Jesus of the Bible who get saved? (all others going to hell)

  164. You guys don’t seem to get it – THIS IS IT – and I prophesied the first earthquake 5 yrs and 1 yr before. The mere fact that you guys preach hell is enough to tell me that you are part of the problem and Pahrisees too. Of course God is not willing that any should suffer, but that ALL should come to the knowledge of Him – and Jesus did not condemn, nor did He condone sin, but He took it all upon Himself – but what we are seeing here is the Great Apsotasy and the End of Days – not your usual circumstance.

    The church has served a false gospel ever since the Jews leavened it in the first century – and this will be the end of it all as God reveals Himself to all flesh as the Son of Man come in glory.

    You are either positionally of New Jerusalem or of the Old Jerusalem, which is also known as Sodom and Egypt…and Babylon. The Circe is not the answer, it is the problem. There are terrible things coming –

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4623103/Earthquake-prediction-for-Wellington

    I am a big mouth – I know that – but consider how Jesus wept over Jerusalem – before the destruction He prophesied occured. We must repent of what we have done to our black and brown brothers, and other RACES – God told me that when you take the G out of GRACE, you end up with RACE – and this is the primary problem for all of us – the way in which we have allowed ourselves, in our pursuit of comfort and profit, to abandon those also made in the image and likeness of God. Until you have really encountered the antchrist spirit as it really is, you will still play church and think this is just a natural event. No my friends, brothers and sisters, this is it, this is the end. And the reason why i did not approach the Dean is that I sensed that it was futile, as he would not listen, which is the very reason it came down – but I will be talking with him soon, and other pastors too, but will they listen? By October we will all know, won’t we? Better get ready folks, your job is to lift Aotearoa up after the judgment is complete, for the time has come, and now is, for judgment to begin with the house of God – these are the days of judgment – God showed me last year the bowls of wrath and how that they are full to overflowing. THIS IS IT, DO NOT BELIEVE OTHERWISE, lest you be overtaken by what is coming. As fir Hell, the word is not even in the original texts, so get over it – you are wrong. I do not have time to play religious word games – you are WRONG!

  165. Judas was a friend of Jesus, the others were brothers – are you a brother or a friend?

    You enter in by the narrow way, or you enter in by destruction – but either way, you enter in – just some go through the fires here and others afterwards, but we all return to from whence we came – every knee, will bow, EVERY tongue confess.

    For God’s sake, WAKE UP you sleepers, rise up you righteous and take His mantle upon you, which is New Jerusalem, this is the END OF DAYS.

  166. I smell the strong stench of false prophet who will be the last man standing as an “earthquake” of judgement brings his world tumbling down……

  167. Whatever Teddy – we shall see – but just remember, it will be the task of Australia to lift up wounded Aotearoa/New Zealand and then Aotearoa shall lift up Australia and together we shall win the world.

    We shall see what will be – i cannot stop it any more than you can change its appearing – this is it sunshine – THIS IS THE END OF DAYS.

    Signing off until the next earthquake, Ian.

  168. The universalist’s (Ian Williams) bible must be missing a lot of pages with over 162 references to hell in the NT alone, over 70 of these are attributed to Jesus – that does make Him a Pharisee too?.

    Matthew 13 36-50″The Parable of the Weeds Explained”

    “Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying,”Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.” ESV

  169. Yes, Ian, Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

    That is what I am saying to you. You do not weep over Christchurch. You gloat and boast.

    That’s what is wrong here. Your lack of heart and compassion for your own people betrays your words. You always point to yourself, not Jesus.

    God doesn’t call heartless prophets.

    They is why the prophets of the Bible cried out for their nation.

    Are you denying hell? Are you, then, a universalist?

  170. @ Ian – May I predict an earthquake in New Zealand’s Southern Region, new zone within 500km from Christchurch (Latitude 43.527 Longitude 172.622), M4.5 – M6.5 on or about March 15 +/- 3 days……..?

    Does that make me a prophet?

  171. No Teddy, that makes you a PRAT.

    Krippling, and you Teddy, you need to get hold of a decent lexicon and look up hell, and a decent dictionary as well. You will find that hel is of norse origin and is a cold place ruled by a woman – you know – like your bed – but then you made it.

    Gehenna is the rubbish tip – where the fires consume all which stinks – even your dung.

    Ask Jesus to show you what hell really is – He did me.

    I did my crying before the eartquake, and also after – I have shed many tears but i also have a sense of JOY which strengthens and enables me. My wife’s sister and my sister in Christ was pinned under rubble while her workmate died next to her as she heard her last words – it has changed her hugely.

    What I am really amazed at is that people who call themselves Christians cannot even discern the signs of the times.

    I have an update forany of you who are interested.

    After the Wellington Quake, the Rugby World Cup will be cancelled and a charity match organised for October 16th, 2011. At 3:33 in the afternoon of that Sunday, a huge earthquake will occur, epicentred directly under the area. The Australian and New Zealand teams playing, along with the 50,000 attending (extra seats having been added) will be crushed as the stadium collapses. I have a sense of the total death toll, but I would not want to seem alarmist, but it will leave only those who will welcome the Son of Man. Australia will save NZ and then NZ will save Australia.

    Now, let us see. If I am wrong, I will gladly take the righteous result. If I am right, then you will know that a prophet has been among you. Selah.

  172. P.S. Note to dominionists, historicists, preterits etc, you cannot change what is coming any more than you can rewrite the Revelation of Jesus Christ as given to John. We are living it right now, and it shall get much worse before the coming of the Son of Man. I actually rejoice over those who are dead – the living shall envy them.

  173. @ Ian – Some timely reading for you………..

    Why Is That Christian Dressed Up Like a Psychic?
    by Jared Moore on February 28, 2011

    Deuteronomy 18:10-11: There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,

    This is a pandemic problem in evangelical churches. How many times have you heard someone say, “God told me,” “God lead me,” “God laid it on my heart,” etc? One would think that these individuals heard the audible voice of God; but no, they base their statements on their feelings: a liver quiver, a gut assumption, butterflies, etc. The problem is that there is nowhere in the Bible where God spoke to anyone through their feelings… not one example. So, whenever these Christians make these statements, they have no authority or example in Scripture to prove that God is speaking to them. They thus are playing the psychic. Although they would never go to a psychic, they simply run to the mirror, assuming that they have some ability to hear God’s voice through their feelings. These people would be against “looking into a crystal ball,” and yet, they have no problem “looking into how they feel” for various answers in life. Just as a psychic assumes his or her feelings tell the truth, Christians that believe God speaks through their feelings, assume that their feelings tell the truth as well. Thus, it is a sin to believe that God speaks through your feelings because you’re adding to the Bible; and it is a sin to claim that God is speaking to you when you have no authority to make such a claim. If you are committing this sin, you are practicing divination; and thus, you are a diviner (Deut. 18:10-11).

    In order to encourage these Christians to dress like Christians instead of like psychics, we must tell them that…

    1. They have NO authority to claim that God speaks to them, if He has never spoken in that way in His inerrant Word. If you believe that God speaks through how you feel, the only argument you have is that you feel God speaks through how you feel. This is an argument from silence, a logical fallacy; and since no one can feel your feelings, you have no accountability. It’s extremely dangerous!

    2. Since they do not know if God is speaking or not unless they hear an audible voice (and even then the Devil appears as an angel of light), they must trust in His already revealed Word. God shouldn’t have to repeat Himself for you to be obedient.

    3. They are terribly inconsistent in what decisions they choose to wait on God to answer. No Christian prays about every single decision they make on earth, and they definitely don’t wait for God to speak to them before they make all the decisions they must make in a given day. They instead only pray about what they deem are “big decisions.” The problem is that if God has given you enough Scripture and wisdom to make “small” decisions, then He has given you enough revelation and wisdom to make big decisions as well.

    4. By them waiting for God to give them more revelation, they speak negative volumes about the revelation He has already provided: His sufficient Word. Christians who believe that there is more revelation coming, often ignore the revelation that they have already been given: 1) the Great Commission, 2) using their spiritual gifts to edify their brothers and sisters, etc. Furthermore, almost all cults were started by people who claimed God was speaking to them beyond the Bible.

    5. The real reason you desire God to speak to you about the “big decisions” in your life is because you don’t want to face the consequences of making the wrong decisions? Don’t you desire to know the future more than you desire to trust God through the difficult times in life? Are your motives not selfish? Are you not willing to suffer for the glory of God? If God always tells you the right decision to make, then why should you trust Him?

    6. If you are honest with yourself, how many times in your Christian life have you been sure that God told you to do something, and it didn’t work out? Do you realize what you communicate about God whenever you claim that He told you something, and it doesn’t come to fruition? You communicate that God is a liar!

    7. If you are waiting on God to speak whenever He has not told you to wait, then you are a legalist. You must find in Scripture where God has told you, not only to pray, but also to wait on Him to audibly answer. You won’t find the Scripture reference because you are adding to God’s Word.

    8. Because you are adding to God’s Word, you are placing yourself in bondage. You are limiting your Christian freedom. Biblically, if you are faced with a decision, and neither choice violates the Scriptures, your conscience, or is unwise, you are free in Christ to do whatever you want. I realize that this doesn’t sound godly in contemporary evangelicalism, but it is biblical!

    9. In every act in the Christian life, whether at salvation or in sanctification, God gets to the heart through the mind. Knowledge comes before feelings and emotions. Whenever you are saved, you repent because you know that you have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Feelings of sorrow often accompany such knowledge; however, the knowledge comes first. We must assume as well then that if God is going to speak to us beyond the Bible (which He doesn’t), that He’s going to get to our hearts through our heads.

    10. If you respond to anything in worship without knowledge involved, you are merely responding to your emotions, not to God. It always worries me whenever a pastor says, “Since God is moving so much during the singing, I’m not going to preach today because I do not want to quench the Spirit.” Where in the world does the Bible give a pastor authority not to preach the Word? Also, how can the Word of God ever quench the Spirit? Before the foundation of the world, God determined to move through His preached Word. If the pastor is faithful to the text, it is impossible to quench the Spirit by preaching the Word! So, what about all these people coming to the altar during the singing or the interpretive movement? Well, either they were convicted by previous knowledge, or they were convicted by the truth in the lyrics of the songs, or they are merely responding to the warm and fuzzy feelings that are being produced in them by the interpretive movement they are seeing or the music they are hearing. You know what really quenches the Spirit: people that respond to their emotions while ignoring the Word of God. When you talk to someone at the altar, or after worship, and you ask them why they came up; and they say, “I don’t know, I just felt like I needed to.” You’d better probe a little more, making sure that they are responding to knowledge, not to the bean burrito they ate before worship.

    What are your thoughts about this issue? Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?

  174. I think Ian Williams may be “channelling” Fred Phelps from Westbro Baptist ………..or his daughter Shirley, same hate-filled nonsense.

  175. Now we have two ditches on either side of the road.

    We have Jared Moore saying evangelicals only hear God by their feelings, and prophetic revelation adds to the Word of God, which is complete guess-work by someone who clearly knows nothing of the Spirit.

    Meanwhile, in the other ditch, Ian is saying prophecy is the wrath-filled judgement of God, which seems to contradict the purpose of prophecy under the New Testament, as led by the Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 13
    1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
    2* For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
    3* But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
    4* He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
    5* I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

    Edification, exhortation and comfort for the church.

    Three times he says prophecy is for edification.

    And there’s the true motive for things spiritual: ‘though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.’

    And for Jared:

    1 Thessalonians
    19* Do not quench the Spirit.
    20* Do not despise prophecies.
    21* Test all things; hold fast what is good.

    ‘For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.’

  176. @ Kipling – I spent 22 years playing that game. Ever read “Charismatic Chaos”. I’m not a cessationist but in all those years at C3 never saw the gift, given for the edification of the body, EVER used biblically……

    Playing the “ditch” game, where does that put you?

  177. @teddy…

    Jared was giving evangelicals a serve, not any particular denomination. I think Ian was giving everyone a blast.

    I’m not defending any denomination in particular, just noting a comparison in two approaches. Sorry about your personal experiences, but here we have two contrasting interpretations of truth which, if we compare them to what the NT says, have slipped off the road of reality.

    One denies the gifts, the other misuses them. The gifts are real, but we need to know the truth on how they operate, don’t you think?

    I’m just trying to stay out of any ditch by sticking to God’s way of doing things. How about you?

  178. On the subject of “ditches” to be avoided, Kipling wasnt it you recently on this blog who was trying to argue that cessationism is “another gospel”?

  179. Regarding Ian Williams prophecy:

    Let’s say, for the sake of argument, it comes true. The question is actually still this: Does this prove he got the prophecy from God?

    Because, at the very end of things, when we will only be saved from the terror by the return of the risen Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son … who is on the scene?

    The Anti-Christ and the False Prophet. They will be accompanied by many miracles, signs and wonders that will deceive even the elect.

    Still … it will be interesting to see a prophecy actually come true in our day. I am looking forward to Ian’s explanation when it doesn’t happen.

  180. @ Ian @ Kipling……

    John 16:1-15 “…this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

    12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    What is decidedly absent here in Jesus’ giving the description of the work of the Holy Spirit?

    Giving new revelation.

  181. There’s an amazing equality about the God-breathed Word, there for all of us to study.

    If He’s giving “extra-biblical revelation” to some and not others, wow !! Who gets to play the God-card?
    All those flakes out there already doing “it”!

  182. @teddy…what is it that you’re saying? There is revelation after Jesus spoke these words, or there isn’t? The Holy Spirit gives revelation, or he doesn’t?

    First of all, if the latter, even the gospel of John was written sometime after the event, by revelation of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said – the Spirit would bring to remembrance the things Jesus said. Then there are the revelations given to Paul, who, you know, was not actually with Jesus. And the Revelation of Jesus given to John on Patmos, quite apart from the other New Testament writers, who wrote after Jesus was ascended, guided by the Holy Spirit.

    Secondly, prophecy in the New Testament isn’t extra revelation, as in: additional revelation to the accepted canon of scripture. No one I know is either claiming this, or attempting such a folly.

    Paul speaks of revelation, give in an assembly as part of the church meeting: ‘How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification’.

    He is obviously not talking about extra-canonical revelation, adding to the accepted word, but another, lesser, but still important, form of revelation; that of bringing understanding of established truth by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

    Clearly, Paul is teaching that this is a normal part of church life, but that it should be organised, in the assembly, in an orderly fashion. He is not denying this form of revelation as a part of a meeting, rather that it should be done properly, and under the leading of the Spirit.

    ‘“However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.”

    Whatever the Spirit does will glorify Christ, so, if there is revelation in the assembly it will never reveal anything that is not already revealed in Christ.

    That is one way we test prophecy or revelation. If it does not glorify Christ it is false.

    I’m not sure what version you used in that passage, but it seems watered down compared to the AV, NKJV or NIV, and doesn’t bring out the work of the Spirit to the same degree. However this isn’t the only passage of scripture which reveals the work of the Spirit in the Church. There is much more.

  183. @Teddy, Kipling is on record as saying cessationists are not saved on account of having “another gospel”…. so nearly everyone other than ancient gnostics and other nutty splinter groups before 1 January 1900 at Topica, Kansas (the birth of the modern aberrant Charasmatic movement) and those outside the wacky wild and not so wonderful world of modern charapostasy are in trouble…

    @Kipling: “Whatever the Spirit does will glorify Christ, so, if there is revelation in the assembly it will never reveal anything that is not already revealed in Christ.”

    So in other words, just read your Bible…..like Martin Luther said “Let the man who would hear God speak, read Holy Scripture” – unfortunately for all you liver shiver lovers out there, it really is as simple as this…

  184. Guys, Ladies and Gentlemen! Put up your swords! What do you think when it says “A Lamb slain, as it were, from (before) the foundations of the Universe”?

    Who is “The Foundation of the Universe? Is it not Jesus Christ, the Son of God? For ALL things are for him and by Him and to HIm and He upholds all things BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER. Note, not the power of His word(s), but by the WORD OF HIS POWER!

    There is POWER, POWER. wonder working POWER, in the blood of the Lamb, slain from BEFORE the foundations of the worlds. First, God had a lamb slain, FIRST!

    You guys are so sold out to your intellectual doctrine and understanding. I am a simple man, I simply ask Jesus, who once challenged this phormer Pharisee, “What New Testament did Paul have – and what Old Testament did Moses have? They had a relationship, and out of that came the books.”

    Recently, I asked Him just what it is all about – in a word, and He said, “It’s all about relationship Ian, its all about relationship.”

    I once asked God what about theologians, and He showed me an image of a microbe looking back up a microscope, trying to disern the eye at the other end, and then He showed me the opposite vista…

    0(:->)

  185. “Bagatharmary Igawa Ian” – that is the Aramaic rendering of “Ian, you are a knob”

  186. Have you ever asked God about Jewellers with too much time on their hands….go and flog some fake diamonds or something

  187. I’m just going to assume Ian didn’t read Bob Dewaay’s commentary, so will include just a small portion here for our blog “mystic” who can and probably will engrave all his “mysticisms” on the head of a pin (as opposed to writing a book)….

    “The mystics are confident that their extra-biblical techniques and extra-biblical experiences are certainly from God and are making more pious Christians than those of us who only have prayer as taught in the Bible and the Word of God to go by.

    Having discovered the secrets to increased piety and “intimacy with God”, they write books (or on blogs) so that others can become similarly “enlightened” and be saved from their “ordinary” Christian lives. Dear (blog)readers, they are selling you a bill of goods. They are not infallible apostles and prophets, they do not speak authoritatively for God, their theology is unbiblical, and their practices are not ordained by God.”

  188. @Ian…’He showed me an image of a microbe looking back up a microscope, trying to disern the eye at the other end’. Hilarious! I’ll pay that!

    Cessationism is another gospel, but whether people who teach it are saved or not isn’t my call. I don’t think you’re necessarily ‘unsaved’ because you teach some error, or no one would make it, would they? I don’t think I’ve said that anywhere.

    Or are you saying you’re only saved if you get everything absolutely correct, as it was when Mosaic Law was the only path to God? Wouldn’t that be works-based righteousness, in which case, who could make it?

    So, if you don’t understand the Trinity absolutely as ELD does, and you don’t grasp every jot and tittle of New Testament teaching, are you saying a person isn’t saved?

    Or is a person saved when they accept Jesu Christ as Lord and Saviour, having repented of denying him, regardless of an understanding of the finer points of faith, including a full understanding of the Trinity, or whether God heals today, or manifestations of the Spirit are for today, or not?

    I think a person can be a cessationist, and be in error in this area of understanding, and yet be saved. But it must be another gospel they preach in this area, if it denies the work of the Holy Spirit.

    The question is, how much of the gospel of salvation which saves sinners is being preached?

  189. @ Kipling – did Ian confirm his universalism? He has admitted to this belief on previous posts, by the way……

  190. @Kipling – would you show us where the scriptures teach the exception you have identified namely, the salvation of people who believe another Gospel?

  191. teddy “@ Kipling – are you a practicing Charismatic?”

    I think its safe to say that Kiplift is a practicing Charismatic.

  192. “After the Wellington Quake, the Rugby World Cup will be cancelled and a charity match organised for October 16th, 2011. At 3:33 in the afternoon of that Sunday, a huge earthquake will occur, epicentred directly under the area. The Australian and New Zealand teams playing, along with the 50,000 attending (extra seats having been added) will be crushed as the stadium collapses. Now, let us see. If I am wrong, I will gladly take the righteous result.”

    Been away for a while, but looks like a missed a lot! Ian, what do you mean by “take the righteous result”?

    So you have put your cards on the table. Here’s my suggestion. This has been recorded, so if what you say comes true then you deserve to be on CNN and go before Presidents because predicting something as specific as that would be absolutely incredible.

    But, if the stadium doesn’t collapse on that day (actually even if you were a few hours out, millions would acknowledge you as the greatest prophet who ever lived), I think that just saying “sorry, I was wrong” would not be good enough.

    If it doesn’t happen as you say, then I think you should repent with sackcloth and ashes, then go get yourself sorted out. That would be only fair.

    There is a real probability of more earthquakes in NZ unfortunately, but if it happened at 3:33 on the specific date you mention, I promise that I will subscribe to your newsletter.

    By the way, have you ever been treated for mental illness, and have you ever been involved with the “Children of God” or the Family International? – (Moses Berg)? Your anti-semitism and use of the word “system” sounds like COG talk.

    But for what it’s worth, , I find you absolutely fascinating.

  193. Faceling or Kiplift, Happy Clappy MegaChurch Guy, whatever your name is now, you said “But it [cessationism] must be another gospel they preach in this area, if it denies the work of the Holy Spirit.”

    REALLY? as you may be aware, there are many people who (sensibly) do not engage in the practice of (modern) “tongues” and many of these people attend Charasmatic churches….Im meeting a pastor of a pente church for coffee tomorrow who is a good example of this.

    Another good example is Hayden Nelson of Senior Pastor of Riverview Church in Perth (over 4,000 congregants) he doesnt do the “tongues” thing – Riverview is a Charasmatic Church…..(Hayden is also a brilliant guy and a great theologian – but I disagree with him on alot of stuff)

    Is “tongues” the work of the “Holy Spirit” in your assessment? if so, arent these people believing “another Gospel” – which leads me back to this question: would you show us where the scriptures teach the exception you have identified namely, the salvation of people who believe another Gospel?

    And if you cant show us this “exception” arent you logically inferring that these people cannot be saved on account of believing another Gospel?

  194. @Teddy, do you think it’s okay to pray for guidance re major life decisions? E.g We have the Great Commission, but how in your opinion does a person decide whether to become a career missionary to India, or a doctor in Sydney? Is there any kind of specific “communication” between God and Christians?

    Serious question based on the Jared Moore article.

  195. Desmond – A Pastor of a Pentecostal church that doesn’t speak in tongues? Does his congregation know that?

  196. @ churchman – what immediately comes to mind we find in Matthew 6:8 “….for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him” (i.e. guidance).

    Our prayers in and of themselves acknowledge our need of Him.

  197. @Teddy

    So if a Christian has a “desire” to go to preach the gospel in foreign country, they can just go, and don’t need to feel God “speaking to them”, and they can just make the decision to go?

    So you believe in guidance, but you just don’t like the idea of people saying that God told them to do something, or that they felt like, or sensed that God was telling them to do it?

  198. ELD, are you stating categorically that people who are cessationists, because their teaching is error, must not be saved, even though they believe in Christ, and have accepted him as Lord and Saviour?

    Is it now knowledge of whether the Spirit operates through the Church or not which saves us, or the work of the cross?

    I don’t recall saying anywhere that cessationists are unsaved because they preach another gospel. You said that!

    I just agreed here that teaching cessationism could be said to be another gospel because it is unscriptural, and therefore, untrue, and because, technically, the gifts of the Spirit could be said to be part of the gospel message, even if they are not essential to salvation, whereas the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord is. I have said I don’t know if they are saved or not.

    Presumably, you would agree that if they have asked Jesus into their lives, and have repented of their old ways, they are saved.

    Does this mean, then, that if they don’t believe healing, tongues or prophecy are for today that they will be condemned? I don’t think so. We are not saved by works, but by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

    But are healing, tongues and prophecy part of the practical preaching of the gospel? I believe they are, and are for today.

    Jesus speaks of signs following the preaching of the gospel.

    Paul talks about carrying out the work of the gospel in words and in deeds. He talks about a demonstration of the Holy Spirit and of power. He talks of the distributions of the Spirit. He corrects the Corinthians over the proper operation of he manifestations of the Spirit. Nowhere does it say that they have ended.

    If we deny them we are in error.

    However, does being, in part, in error over the gifts or over the works that follow salvation disqualify a person from salvation? If so, then Peter was disqualified for refusing to fellowship with Gentiles, which Paul pointed out was a serious error. Can you say he was disqualified, or did he retain his salvation despite this error. Wasn’t Paul empowered to publicly rebuke him?

    Will you disqualify a person who has accepted Christ for every ignorant act, or for each incorrect understanding of scripture? If so, you make yourself greater than God, who does not, since we know that Peter was not disqualified for his error. Did Jesus exclude Thomas for not believing at first, or did he work with him until he saw the truth? That is his grace. That is his nature. What is yours?

    Is God now giving and taking away salvation because men go in and out of error from time to time?

    Are you saying that the first time you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Saviour you knew everything you needed to know so that you could never, ever be in error about anything, be it slight or major from day one?

    Is God long-suffering towards his people? He is. Has he sent teachers, pastors, disciple-makers, and overseers to help people with doctrine, to remove the old and furnish the new? He has.

    Then why are you so impatient for candidates for salvation to know everything before they are called righteous, holy and saved, as if, by their own works, or their own righteousness, or their own holiness they could establish eternal life in themselves?

    You seem to be becoming a purveyor of works, and of law, not grace.

    Did Christ refuse Peter for denying him three times? No, he restored him through correction and admonishment in love. Peter’s faith, love and hope came before his full understanding of truth. God, through the Spirit, guided him into all truth.

    His starting point was the gospel, which told him faith was in Jesus Christ alone. Not in the Trinity. Not in healing. Not even in knowing how the gifts worked, or if they were for today. How long was it before the early Church actually fully understood the doctrine of the Trinity, or even discussed it? Do you actually think the early Jewish converts grasped it? Or was the revelation given to Paul some time later? I don’t see that it became a major issue until some time into the early Church age. Does this mean that all those converts were discarded until they arrived at the Nicene Creed 300 years after Paul?

    Were the Galatians excluded for being bewitched? I know it was pointed out that they were in danger of disqualification if they continued following the Judaisers, but isn’t this the point of Paul’s example of pastoral work amongst the flocks of God? To bring correction, and rebuke? Wasn’t that the purpose of Paul’s Apostolic letter to these churches? To bring direction, and correct, and even rebuke.

    Have you met one single person, other than Christ, who did not have any error in their understanding?

    Are you claiming perfection for yourself?

    I put it you that you are nothing without Jesus. Your personal holiness and righteousness are like filthy rags. You are only righteous because of Christ’s righteousness, and holy because of his holiness.

    I put it to you that it is not your knowledge of theology, nor soteriology, nor the doctrine of the Trinity, nor even your understanding of scripture that has saved you, if you are saved. Paul knew more about theology than you ever will, before he was saved, and counted it as dung compared to knowing Christ and the power of his resurrection.

    It is the blood and the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, and faith in him alone that has saved you.

    It is the blood and the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, and faith in him alone that has saved anyone else you claim as a mentor, including your extensive list of theological experts, writers of creeds, preachers, teachers, authors and masters.

    It is faith in the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ alone that can save. All else is peripheral.

  199. Kipling – excellent answer – I see you are an Israelite in whom there is no guile….

    I have put it on the line as to what i have seen and heard of SOME of what is to come – let’s see, shall we? Then maybe you might listen to waht i am saying about some other things, such as God not being willing that any should be lost but that all should come to the (saving) knowledge of Him – it is the TRUTH which sets us free, and the truth is a person.

    Interesting that you the issue you are mass-debating is cessationsim, which plainly is a crock mof dung, just like historicism, dominionism, and the preterit philosophy. The cessationists have been hamstrung and hog tied with tradition, and they are happy to bear it. Paul warned with tears of false prophets and wolves for he knew that the leavening of the church had started with Peter and the Satanic Sanhedrin who followed him, trying to tear up what he was laying down. By the time Constipationtine came on the scene, the devil ahd well and truly worked out that seduction was far more effective than suffering, and so we have the MOTHER CIRCE/CHURCH, aka Babylon the Great, the Great Harlot – but Jesus is a whizz at turning whores, publicans and sinners of all kinds into brides.

    Yes Kipling, we are all flawed in the flesh, fallible and failures – thank God it is NOT at all about our righteousness, except that be Jesus Christ, who is made unto us, wisdom, righteousness and sanctification.

    And as for being a knob, perhaps more a protuberance or prominence, or even a prick to burst your bubble.

    Many of the people whom some of you revile and judge shall be your teachers in the Kingdom Age. The Church Age is closing, the old family tree will soon yield its fruit and then whither and die. Old Jerusalem, which is also known as SODOM and EGYPT, shall pass away and New Jerusalem cometh down out of heaven, adorned as a bride. Keep your lamps trimmed and filled boys and girls, it is only going to get tougher – we are in Rev 13 in case you have not noticed. We are being “eased” into this as an act of mercy, and these days shall be shortened for the sake of the elect.

    Last year God instructed me to put my business and everything I believed on the altar and told me He would consume all which was preventing and binding me – and so now I have no business but God.

    He who seeks to retain his life shall lose it, but he who loses his life for Jesus’ sake shall find it, for it is no longer I(an) which lives, but Christ which lives in me – I am a new creation in Him.

    When you see these signs and when you see a Gideons army of believers so immersed in the glory, so resplendent in their New Jerusalem covering, then you will know that what i say is true.

    So, how many of you have been brave enough to take up my faith challenge? How many of you have begun to daily place your life upon the altar and ask for all which prevents you from entering in be taken away?

    The Pharisees bind up heavy burdens, they offend or block or deter or prevent those little ones from entering in by first stumbling them with condemnation and then binding heavy burdens upon them so that they may not enter in to the rest of faith, the kingdom of God, which is Peace, Joy and Righteousness in the Holy Ghost.

    The binding upon the hearts of the Cessationists is plainly obvious to anyone who has experienced the miracle working Power of God, which is Jesus Christ, for He is THE POWER OF GOD, He is the GOOD NEWS. But have you looked and considered and aske where it is that you too are blind? Have you asked Jesus what it is that you think to be true but which is a lie?

    The problem with most of you is that you read the Bible is that you read it from left to right or West to East, with a Western Philosophical/Scientific approach – I have learned to read it from ‘East to West’ which is how the day dawns and the light comes, hence – from the earthl bound perspective it is “your body is the Temple of God”, but from God’s persepctive it is “The Temple of God is YOUR BODY” Get it?

    So, is the Gospel (words) the power of God, or is the POWER the good news? The kingdom of heaven is NOT in word(s) BUT IN POWER, and Jesus is that Power, and he is the Kingdom, and He alone is King. Hallelujah and Maranatha Jesus!

    So, is this the end or what? Who believes that we are in the last of the last days, and that the Son of Man shall soon return to earth with healing in His wings? Or do you just think that this is ‘natural’?

    Awake ye sleepers!

  200. @ churchman –

    James 4:13-16 “Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that.” But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.

    A quote from Bob Dewaay…

    “This passage provides very important evidence that the personal words from God approach is not Biblical. If indeed the Biblical pattern was for all Christians to receive special revelation from God that directs their future plans, then the passage would say, “You ought to have asked, ‘Lord tell us Your will about whether to go into this business.” But it does not. It says they should have said (not asked) “If the Lord wills.” That means they should have not boasted about the future when they did not know what it is. To claim to know what one does not know (God’s unrevealed providential plans for our future) is called arrogant boasting and is condemned. They were free to decide to travel and start a business, but they were not free to claim to know the future outcome.”

  201. Oh Teddy, you are a piece of work(s)! The doctrine of hell is the DOCTRINE OF HELL. Now, just for you who cannot read, Gehenna is the tip outside OLD JERUSALEM where the TRASH got burned. It is a metaphor (look it up, its in the dictionary) for those who will not accept correction and have to have their offences burned off. It is and will be decidely unpleasent – especially given that it is our own unpleasentness which is to be dealt with.

    I had a lady in my shop who was yada yada’ing, and blathering on about hell – so I asked within what, if anything, I ought to say. I heard, “Ask her who seh personally wants to see go to hell.” So I did, and she said, “No one, of course, but…” I asked again, who is it? She denied there being anyone, so I looked her straight in the eye and said, “I think there is, isn’t there?” At that the demon inside her groaned and growled and she screamed and ran out of the shop, never to come back. She had been abused repeatedly as a child by an uncle.

    Again, I am a simple man, so I asked Jesus, back when I still believed in a literal hell of eternal damnation, “Just who goes to hell and who to heaven?”

    The answer came, “Whatever is of Me returns to Me, whatever is not, does not”. Now, with that in mind, read Romans 11:35, Ecclesiastes 12:7, and any other scripture which speaks of the ALLNESS of JESUS CHRIST.

    Again, you need to understand the difference between the duality of good and evil and the dichotomy of flesh and spirit. What is sown in the flesh is reaped in the flesh. Paul said it is not I who sins but SIN WHICH WORKS IN MY MEMBERS.

    Some of you really need to understand the difference between Soteria and Sozo, but then you are obviously dividers, adn God told me that in this season He shall divide those who divided.

    Like I have said before, show me in what original text the words hell, cross, crucify, church and easter may be found – they are all mistranslations based on deception and the doctrines of devils and the traditions of Man.

    At least you have the strength of your own opinions, but then all personal opinion is apostasy, as it is at variance to the Truth and involves partiality, only the Mind of Christ is True, for all fall short and all sin and all are to some degree inclined to their own perspective. We are all flawed by sin and saved by Jesus, in whom all died and wll were resurrected. Jesus is the True North.

    As for me being a Universalist, I hate tags, I am simply a follower of Jesus, who not having yet attained, presses on toward the mark of His calling.

    The one thing you can be assured of is that the closer you are to Jesus, the more you will be hated by those who are not. God showed me nearly 10 yrs ago what will happen to those religious folks who oppose Him in this time – they will be swept away.

    0(:->) my self portrait – if you really knew me, you would find that I am actually a hell of a nice guy!

  202. Tell me Teddy, have you been to the throne room? Have you healed the sick, raised the dead? I think your god IS the Bible, while my God is the ONE who inspired its writing. We will se though, won’t we?

    One question, do you believe that this is the season of the last days? Yes or No (whatever else proceeds from sin).

  203. We`all humbly bow down to your “ascension to the throne” (or throne room if that’s your claim). Now who was it that tried to claim it for himself? Lucifer…….

    By the way, I hope uou’re not claiming to have healed the sick, or raised the dead.

  204. I don’t know if we are in the ‘last days’ or not. Everyone who has been certain of this prior to now has been wrong.

    I like the example of 1666 when so many events seemed to point to the end:

    1666

    * As this date is 1000 (millennium) + 666 (number of the Beast) and followed a period of war and strife in England, many Londoners feared that 1666 would be the end of the world. The Great Fire of London in 1666 did not help to alleviate these fears. (Schwartz p.87, Kyle p.67-68)

    * Sabbatai Zevi recalculated the coming of the Messiah to 1666. Despite his failed prophecies, he had accumulated a great many followers. He was later arrested for stirring up trouble, and given the choice of converting to Islam or execution. Pragmatic man that he was, he wisely elected for the former. (Festinger)

    http://paraspiracy.com/home/?p=2514

    Can we even say for sure how long the ‘last days’ are? Are they thousands of years or years within the span of one human life? (One of the 1660 end of world prophets said that the Antichrist had arrived in 456.) So Ian, short of genuine revelation from the Lord, none of us can really claim certainty on this.

    I’ve recorded your prophecy on my blog where I can find it easily later this year. At least you have provided specific places, dates and times, which is more than many who claim to be prophets do.

    Sometimes things you say makes sense to me, yet others enter the realm of enthusiastic and misguided imagination. You come across to me as being intelligent enough but mentally ill. If your very specific prophecy comes to pass though – I’ll have to revisit my views.

  205. @Kipling – if an individual believes “another Gospel” other than the one preached by the Apostles and taught in Scripture, can that individual be saved?

  206. @Ian – have you got around to asking Jesus (when he comes around to your house for beer, poker and cigars on Friday nights)that question about Aramaic primacy yet….?

  207. @Kipling – long response there, just working my way through it….

    “Jesus speaks of signs following the preaching of the gospel”

    Are you referring to Mark 16?

  208. James 5:7-9 “Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.” ESV

    Peter has the same expectation ……

    1 Peter 4:7 “The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.” ESV

    When John recorded his vision in the book of Revelation (1:1), he prefaced it by saying that these things “must shortly take place”.

    Of course we’re living in the last days, have been for 2000+/- years…..

  209. Ha, I get it now, this is a den of vipers – you guys are about as spiritual as preachers fart…

    Let us see what will be – I will be magnanimous though, you can have front seat tickets to my sermons…

    Yes, I have twice prayed for people who have been on life support. One had no brain waves, revived after 20 mins dead from asphyxiation due to smoke inhalation and soon to be unplugged, prayed for at the request of her friends from 60 miles away and two weeks later she walked out of hospital completely restored – the doctors in Palmerston North said it was a medical miracle. Another, run down in a Christchurch Street, on life supoort but otherwise dead, spine broken in 5 places, virtually every bone in his upper torso broken (he had been exiting a manhole) and he walked out of hospital 2 wks later to get married – it turned out we had made his rings. Also at least three from paralysis (broken backs) and many other healings. I was caught up to the throne in 2001. I have been caught up to heaven in various forms 5 times and have had the Shekinnah glory in my house – you guys – are your really believers or just a bunch of mind wanking Pharisess – excuse me but if i had to deal with you face to face I think i would just as likely thump you with a scourge, you are so exasperating – you are playing at Circe. You are not even worth talking to. You are welcome to your god, for you certainly seem to be of your father, he the father of lies. You will see – believe me – and you will repent of your vicious attitudes. Mark my words.

    Now, how did i ever get lured into this cactus patch of pricks….thorns in my side….to buffet me….must be a life lesson…nasty….nasty…nasty…

  210. I think this blog has picked up a virus…………….a really nasty one. Time for a system clean up?

  211. ELD…’if an individual believes “another Gospel” other than the one preached by the Apostles and taught in Scripture, can that individual be saved?’

    No!

    ‘Are you referring to Mark 16?’

    Yes!

    Can you outline basic gospel essentials for us?

  212. @Kipling

    Doesnt it bother you that you are using a passage that is not original in the Bible to support your proposition “Jesus speaks of signs following the preaching of the gospel”??????

    Arent you aware that Mark 16:9-20 is not included in the best and most ancient manuscripts of the New Testament, and it is not included in the actual text of most modern editions of the Bible???

    You are a “pastor” right?????

    Do you own a NIV,NASB, or ESV translation???? what does the footnote to Mark 16 say and what is written in square brackets after Mark 16:8????? – something like this perhaps..” [The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20]”

  213. ELD … tut tut tut.

    You were almost reaching out there. You could have made your point in a more gentle manner and instead get a different reference from Kipling from Acts or the Epistles.

    You aren’t a (gasp) cessationist are you?

    :0

  214. @ELD…

    Surprise, surprise, didn’t we all know that was coming!

    I’m not a King James only person, but I find your outburst extraordinary, and it misses entirely the context of the discussion. There are other ways, in scripture, to demonstrate the key elements of Mark 16:15-20 as part of our mission, which both confirm the passage as pertinent, and our witness as empowered by the Spirit.

    But…irony of ironies! A whole bunch of liberals abandon the Recieved Text and conservative miracle-denialists obligingly grasp at a lifeline to demonstrate their ignorance.

    That you of all people, the bane of liberal’s lives, should adopt the uber-liberal Westcott and Hort, or even the more reasonable, Nestlé’s, Critical Text is somewhat humorous!

    That you, a Trinitarian of the most ardent order should adopt the deity-diminishing versions is hilarious.

    It is well argued that the so called ‘earliest’ manuscripts are so few and far between that they pale into insignificance against the weight of those which contain the verses, and Westcott and Hort’s analysis has long since been analysed and criticised, although it was very popular at one stage.

    Interestingly, it seems that the only modern English language version in print using Westcott and Hort is the New World translation of the JWs, along with their use of the spiritualist-inspired Diagolot. Go figure!

    Maybe that’s because, between them, they so conveniently dim the light of the Godhead’s deity, especially the Lordship of Christ.

    And the NIV, which, for some reason changes ‘LORD’, used in all other versions, into ‘sovereign Lord’, where the Hebrew or Greek word for ‘sovereign’ never appears in any text, nor is implied. It wouldn’t be a ‘Reformed’ text, would it, by any chance?

    The ‘earliest’ manuscripts, again, very few in number (two, is it, plus a small amount of copies?) also almost all originate from the same Alexandrian area, where one would assume they were passed on, possibly with additions or omissions.

    Who really knows whether they left out crucial parts of the passage, or they were subsequently added to by others. As Scrivener points out in his excellent ‘Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament’, there is a rather tell-tale empty space left after what we know as verse 8, rather like someone left work early and forgot to resume the text the next day!

    But it is not clear, evidenced or proven that the more common texts were copies of those texts, or, very probably, were handed down from different regions.

    The truth is that no scholar is really sure which is right or wrong, best or worse.

    We could argue this ad infinitum, but I find your triumphalism a tad premature, if not immature.

    So now your version ends mid-sentence, conveniently avoiding any need on your part to believe much! So be it.

    I’ll continue to enjoy the fruits of believing what Jesus says from 15-20, which, surely is the best evidence of all.

    As they say, the proof of the pudding…

  215. @Kipling/FL

    Its funny you know, you say you saw my line of argumentation coming about the later edition to Mark, yet the fact remains that by far the majority of NT Scholars in the last century believe that verses 9 – 20 are not original. This is a fact.

    Anyone purporting to have even basic theological credentials (I don’t know…like….a “pastor”) even if they, for what ever reason, dissent from the majority position would not make cavalier references or attempt to build a theology on verses 9 – 20 without so much as tipping their hat to the dilemma of these verses. It’s evident that you, like the majority of your liver quivering brethren, are ignorant of these issues.

    Before going ahead and claiming FHA Scrivener as your “conservative” champion you might like to know that Scrivener actually seriously doubted the authenticity some texts AS WELL!!! Like Matthew 16:2, Christ’s agony at Gethsemane, John 5:3 – 4. Kipling/FL, in your attempts to answer me you throw names of people out that you clearly do not have any earthly idea about. This is at least the second time I have caught you out doing this (remember Mr Adam Clarke?)

    The evidence for the majority contention for the “Later Addition to the Gospel of Mark” (as it is now known universally) has been carefully examined not only on the basis of its absence from the two oldest Alexandrian Greek manuscripts but also on the basis of its internal stylistic inconsistencies. However the manuscript evidence is correctly described as follows: “the two oldest Alexandrian Greek manuscripts, Alexandrian uncials a B, both 4th century manuscripts, are supported by the Sinaitic Syriac manuscripts, approximately one hundred Armenian texts and two Georgian manuscripts from the 9th and 10th centuries, and several church Fathers including Clement of Alexandria and Origen. That this reading was more prominent is supported by Eusebius and Jerome who claimed that vv 9-20 were absent from almost all known manuscripts.”

    For very good reason Kipling – the majority of New Testament scholars believe that verses 9-20 are not original.

    In the context of your assertion “I am not a King James Version Only-ist (I just like to use their wild-eyed arguments)” – I found this little chessnut to be particularly entertaining:

    “A whole bunch of liberals abandon the Received Text and conservative miracle-denialists obligingly grasp at a lifeline to demonstrate their ignorance.”

    Hmmm… Liberals who have abandoned the “Received Text”. Since the term “Received Text” or Textus Receptus has been applied to a variety of Greek New Testament texts over the years, perhaps you could enlighten us Kipling “which Textus Receptus?” I presume the text in mind is the text of Erasmus and the Elzevirs – the text that was eventually used by the King James Bible translators.

    You do understand that Textus Receptus is not representative of the entire Byzantine text type don’t you? do you understand that AGAIN, the majority of scholars distance themselves from the Textus Receptus position of primacy due to:
    1. its many variations from the majority of other Byzantine texts;
    2. for its relatively small collection of manuscripts; and
    3.unique readings in the Textus Receptus that are not found elsewhere, even among other Byzantine manuscripts.

    The reality is and AGAIN the majority held scholarly view today holds that the Alexandrian text-type as representing an earlier, and hence more accurate form of text than the Byzantine text-type. The best and most literally accurate modern translations like the ESV & NASB are based on the Alexandrian text-type for this very reason.

    You don’t appear to understand the basics of textual criticism – the earlier, the more contemporaneous with the actual events recorded ARE the most reliable witnesses to the original autograph – OF COURSE THEY WILL BE FEWER IN NUMBER BY VIRTUE OF BEING ALOT OLDER!!! – have you heard of P52?? – Its a SINGLE papyrus codex fragment of Johns Gospel the size of a credit card and the earliest witness (late first/early second century) of any NT writing…In all your textual critical wisdom would you please give us you extrinsic source for the proposition “It is well argued that the so called ‘earliest’ manuscripts are so few and far between that they pale into insignificance against the weight of those which contain the verses” – sorry, but that is just supreme illogical dopiness and flies totally in the face of what the textual critical enterprise is fundamentally about – the textual critic seeks to reconstruct the original text or autograph as closely as possible – this is achieved by locating and validating the earliest attestations. Talking about paling into insignificance, where are all of the Pentecostal/Charasmatic textual critics – can you name ONE? (i.e. the 2 best in the world – the late Bruce Metzger (Reformed), Dan Wallace (Reformed)) I guess its not a popular a subject as “taking dominion over the seven mountains of culture” bulls*%$ on offer at the Sunshine Tafe Bibul Kollige….

    “The truth is that no scholar is really sure which is right or wrong, best or worse.” – ummm, yes they are – that’s why the best selling Bible translations are the NASB and the ESV because they are based on the earliest, best and most accurate Alexandrian text-type manuscripts.

    I had to have a chuckle at this!!!:

    “And the NIV, which, for some reason changes ‘LORD’, used in all other versions, into ‘sovereign Lord’, where the Hebrew or Greek word for ‘sovereign’ never appears in any text, nor is implied. It wouldn’t be a ‘Reformed’ text, would it, by any chance?”

    You are such a dag! Do you understand that the NIV is not meant to be a literal word for word translation (like the ESV or NASB) rather it utilises dynamic equivalents by which the focus of translation is in attempting to clearly convey the THOUGHTS AND IDEAS of the text/writer….not precision verbatim translation – okey dokes!!! nuff said there!

    I have heard wild-eyed nutty KJVO ignoramuses call Wescott & Hort “evil high level occultists” but never heard anyone describe them as “uber liberal”….do you even understand what a theological liberal is/believes?? I am not even going to dignify the galatically ignorant weird conspiracy theories behind new bible translations and silly KJVO ignorant rants about Wescott & Hort

    Facts are indeed stubborn things aren’t they old boy? 🙂

  216. @Ian Williams,

    “My problem is that i can be a smartarse […]”

    No Ian; you’re not smart, just an arse.

  217. @ELD…

    ‘Do you understand that the NIV is not meant to be a literal word for word translation (like the ESV or NASB) rather it utilises dynamic equivalents by which the focus of translation is in attempting to clearly convey the THOUGHTS AND IDEAS of the text/writer….not precision verbatim translation’.

    TeeHee! Hilarious! Don’t you mean the thoughts of the text translators! How could they possibly know the thoughts of the writer?

    Dynamic equivalents! Like the equivalents the New World translation adopts you mean! Hardeharhar!

    What if the writer intended another set of dynamic equivalents not expressed in this version. Isn’t there something somewhere about not adding or subtracting from the Word?

    Can you show me from the Hebrew or the Greek where the word ‘sovereign’ is used alongside Lord? Surely that would clinch it for you and give relevance to this equivalence.

    It appears 299 times in the NIV in association with ‘adonai’, and yet ‘sovereign’ is never used as a translation of ‘adonai’ in any other translation. Never! Not once, even in Green’s Literal Translation. Strange that! Te AV translates it ‘Lord God’, which is sufficient equivalence, don’t you think?

    And your mumbo-jumbo about the received text vs the critical text is totally subjective, and objected to as much as it is agreed to. The truth is no one knows for sure.

    However, you should know that everything in Mark 16:9-20 is alluded to elsewhere, and, as Bull points out, is easily defined using other verses, which is why we, as diligent students of the Word, do not take one passage of scripture as our guide, but the context of the whole.

    But, you knew that didn’t you.

  218. I forgot to mention, for anyone interested in this discussion about ‘sovereignty’, that there is no Hebrew or Greek word anywhere in the texts, which is why you won’t find the word ‘sovereign’ in the KJV, just as there isn’t a word for ‘Trinity’.

    If I’m wrong I’m sure ELD can show us these words.

    Equivalents don’t count, dynamic or not!

  219. Of course God is sovereign! He is Supreme Ruler. And the Trinity is also a truth.

    But neither word, ‘sovereign’ or ‘Trinity’, nor any Hebrew or Greek equivalent, is mentioned in scripture, yet the NIV introduces ‘sovereign’, predominantly to introduce a particular Reformed doctrinal stance. On this ELD remains silent, so I take that as agreement.

    The issue is Bible interpretation. If a word or phrase doesn’t occur in the original texts or manuscripts it should not be introduced. Claiming ‘dynamic equivalency’ is erroneous.

    What ELD claims is that Mark 16 from verse 9 doesn’t exist, and he uses this as a defence against the Holy Spirit confirming the Word with signs following, thus excusing him from having to engage in a conversation about whether the manifestations of the Spirit are for today or not.

    For someone who claims to not be a cessationist, he sure presents a huge cessationist argument.

    If he were truly not a cessationist he would surely argue for the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit, and discuss how they were correctly outworked in the Church, rather than dismiss the gifts and manifestations at every possible opportunity.

    I would have to agree with Bull that he shows all the signs of being a cessationist.

    A classic cessationist defence is to eliminate Mark 16:9-20 from the texts.

    Why would anyone would want to eliminate the manifestations of the Spirit from the Church?

    They surely point to the sovereignty of God.

  220. FL – “If a word or phrase doesn’t occur in the original texts or manuscripts it should not be introduced.”

    Do you mean like the following IN THE KJV (by way of quick example) :

    1.In a couple of places in the Old Testament, the Hebrew text literally reads, “God’s nostrils enlarged.” But, the KJV translates this as, “God became angry”—which is what the expression means.

    2. Matthew 1:18 the KJV says that Mary was found to be with child. But the Greek is quite different and quite graphic: “Mary was having it in the belly”

    3.In many places in Paul’s letters, the KJV reads, “God forbid!” But the original has neither “God” nor “forbid.” Literally, it says, “May it never be!” (as, surprise! Surprise!, most modern translations render it).

    Not much of a thesis now…is it?

  221. @Kipling – with the exception of your unintelligible magical personal prayer language, could you also name any two languages where a perfect word-for-word translation is possible much or most of the time and where: idioms, colloquialisms, jargon, slang, aphorisms and also syntactic and lexical functions of language such as conjunctions, order and subordination of thought, multiple combinations of verbs and prepositions, adverbs, or verbs with both adverbs and prepositions etc…etc…in either language do not need to be paraphrased or reinstated (i.e. differing word order) to make sense in another language?

    Now go away and stop bothering the adults – dont you have seven montains to go and climb with your NAR freinds??

  222. Stop wriggling, ELD.

    Where does the word ‘sovereign’ enter the conversation anywhere in the texts? Why is the NIV the only version to use it to translate ‘adonai’? That’s not a hard question for an ‘adult’ is it?

    It’s always a sign that you’re stalling or running out of answers when you throw around deflective insults and long-winded, distracting points which have no bearing on the discussion, as Bull has already pointed out to you.

    Are you a cessationist? If not, why do you defend their position so adamantly?

    What is the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church today?

    Does he still manifest the gifts of the Spirit ‘severally to each one as he wills’?

    Are the gifts of healings still manifest in the Church today as the Spirit leads?

    Is speaking in tongues, since you bring it up, still a part of God’s gifting for the Church? Prophecy? Word of knowledge and word of wisdom?

    Can you briefly explain the reasons for your answers?

    And, from earlier… can you give a basic understanding of what you understand the gospel to be?

    These are all ‘adult’ questions.

  223. I have been under the impression for a while now, that regardless of whether it’s to be included in the original text, Mark 16:9-20 has Jesus addressing the disciples who then went out and fulfilled those very words.

    Jesus is talking to the disciples, not to us…….context, context, context.

  224. I’m glad you accept this passage as correct and viable for today, teddy.

    The context:

    “And these signs will follow THOSE WHO BELIEVE: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

    So the context here is believers.

    Are you a believer?

  225. He (Jesus) was still addressing the disciples as those who believe, it’s still about context…..

  226. @Kipling

    “Sovereignty”, Sovereign, (and “Trinity”, Tri – unity)is an English word with an late latin, middle Fench, old English etymology – granted – its not a Hebrew or Greek word but is, as you have said above, undeniably expounded and taught as a theological concept like the Trinity – so what! there are over 300 words in the KJV that no longer mean what they meant in 1611 – so what! – different laguages have different charateristics which also change over time….

    Among others, the Hebrew name and its derivatives “adonai” – “Lord” and the masculine noun “Adown” does express concept of sovereignty as its understood in English – check a good hebrew lexicon. google the following “adown aw-done” (from an unused root, to rule, sovereign, controller)

    Its idiots like you (and KJVO nutters) today who think that a faithful translation of the Bible means a
    perfect “word-for-word” translation – which is simply not linguistically possible.

    If the original has a noun, they expect a noun in the translation – thats not linguistically possible in every instance;

    If the original has sixteen words, they dont want to see seventeen in the translation – thats not linguistically possible in every instance….

    I again refer to the matters as I have laid them out above in my last comment – no 2 languages translate with perfect formal equivalence. Keep in mind the few of many problematic translational variants in the KJV that I have brough to your attention and you will see the error of your premise and how your line of argumentation is a complete red herring. Textual criticism is not a good area for the ignorant to paddling around in….

    No, Im not cessationist – I respect cessationist arguments – as I have said before Im a bit agnostic on the issue….I dont have half the problem with pente/charasmaticism (with a seat belt) than I have with abusive groups like C3 and charlatans/false teachers like Phil Pringle…

    The Later Addition to the Gospel of Mark (16:9-20) is not a “cessationist” issue – its a Textual Critical issue…..

    Why do I defend the cessationist position? To stop it being misrepresented by ignoramuses like you because it has some very valid arguments – back at you If you are not a KJVO nutjob why do you use their arguments and defend their position so adamantly?

    “What is the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church today?” the same as it was yesterday and the day before that….

    “Is speaking in tongues, since you bring it up, still a part of God’s gifting for the Church? Prophecy? Word of knowledge and word of wisdom?” – could be if the Lord so wills, but I havent heard of anyone who circumvented the inductive process of actually learing foreign intelligble languages by way of supernatural intervention – have you?

    “Are the gifts of healings still manifest in the Church today as the Spirit leads?” – of course, but by virtue of being able to create the Earth in 6 days, I just think that the Spirit is able to do more than heal indigestion, blocked sinuses etc.. nor do I think such miraculous healing is normative or able to be dictated by the whim of some idiot pastor/pastrix who couldnt even name the 10 commandments – but please feel free to adduce any real and varified, documented evidence of any “miracles” that have been performed through any C3 pastor/leader/lay person in Australia (we are sick of hearing about remote tribes in Nigeria)

    What is the Gospel?
    “the dominant New Testament emphasis understands “the gospel” to be the embracing category that holds much of the Bible together, and takes Christians from lostness and alienation from God all the way through conversion and discipleship to the consummation, to resurrection bodies, and to the new heaven and the new earth.” (DA Carson)

    Sometimes it is more helpful to attempt to discover what the Gospel is not….

  227. He is addressing them face to face, and saying ‘THOSE who believe’ implying others not present, including those who are yet to believe, which could be any who are believing, otherwise he would be saying ‘YOU who believe’, which doesn’t make sense, because it implies there may be some who do not believe amongst his disciples, or better, ‘BECAUSE YOU believe’, which he doesn’t say.

    A fuller context would be:

    “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

    So he is talking to his disciples, already believers, about what new believers would be capable of in the his name.

    But, look are you defending cessationist teaching also?

  228. “you [Teddy] defending cessationist teaching”

    You are such a manipulative oxygen thief Kipling, the issue with the later addition to the Gospel of Mark (16:9-20) is not a “cessationist” issue – its a Textual Critical issue…..

  229. ELD, I’m not a KJVO, and I’m aware of some anomalies, but removing an entire passage because of a hypothesis is always going to lead to debate.

    I can appreciate your stance of being open to the Spirit, but also open to cessationist arguments, that is, agnostic on the issue of signs, wonders and miracles for today, and I respect your honesty on it, but I find your dismissal of those who believe what the New Testament says on the gifts, manifestations and grace of the Holy Spirit to be quite juvenile at times, especially in your contemptuous language.

    It shows a person who is not actually willing to engage in another perspective unless it confirms his own existing stance.

    And I don’t think you can claim to be an adult in the area of miracles and manifestations for today if you are agnostic, can you?

    By the way, you clearly have a wrong idea of what tongues and interpretation are.

    Giving testimony of healings and deliverance on a site like this is an extremely dangerous pastime, I’ve noticed, since it usually ends up in tears and ridicule, so I won’t bother, thanks, but yes, I have seen miracles on Australian soil and elsewhere. I’ll leave it at that. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant.

  230. ELD…’its a Textual Critical issue’

    Maybe, but it’s a windfall for cessationists, which is why it is often thrown up as ‘evidence’ – exactly what you did earlier.

  231. Bit hard to avoid the issue when you cite it as a proof text for your ORIGINAL argument????

  232. Calm down a bit boys. Getting a bit too hot.

    We can cite all the scriptures we like … we can chase through the Bible to prove a point but it won’t actually get us anywhere.

    What do we actually know?
    1) Hyper Charismatic type stuff happened in the Early Church.
    2) Paul imposed a rigid discipline on it. Tongues … no more than three (with interpretations). Prophecy … no more than three. and so on.
    3) Everything was done decently and in order. There was no pally worship. They didn’t worship God All Matey. They worshipped God All-Mighty.

    The big problem with C3 and Hillsong isn’t this. It is the scripture manipulation that results in maximising weekly income through tithes and offerings in order to receive God’s Blessing. This type of teaching leads to a pragmatic success for Church finances but little else.

    😦

  233. To me there doesn’t seem to be any scriptures stating that we couldn’t or shouldn’t believe for and expect healings and miracles to take place now.

    My question is this. And it’s also addressed to Kipling.

    After all the decades in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, if you were asked to write down and submit events (healings, deliverances, prophecies, barking, gold dust etc etc) that you could write an affidavit for, and would be considered supernatural or at least unexplainable by the “reasonable man”, how many would you come up with?

    For all the schools of healings, and big shot preaches saying how easy this stuff all is, it’s really amazing that there aren’t more documented cases – in medical journals etc etc.

    (Yeah, I know, every man and his dog seems to have stories of 60 blind and deaf getting healed on the last day of the India crusade – but, I don’t seem to get their names or addresses or any other proof except that the guy said it in his testimony and every clapped.)

    In other words, after being in the “latter rain” for all these decades now, surely there would be proof of the miraculous falling off trees by now.

    And I don’t mean anecdotal evidence like the people who sell Monavie etc…

  234. Fine, Bull, but ELD opened up the discussion on cessationism with this: ‘Kipling wasn’t it you recently on this blog who was trying to argue that cessationism is “another gospel”?’ I passed, but he insisted, probably to try out his Mark 16 defence on someone!

    @churchman, I have seen miracles close up, but I’ve already said this isn’t the right place to discuss them. The thing is, if we deny the Word and never pray for anyone because someone says it has ceased, are we denying God or quenching the Hoy Spirit?

  235. @Kipling
    The Mark 16 “Defence”? – you simply cannot accept that the “Mark 16” issue is one that falls under the category of the specialised discipline of Textual Criticism NOT some “cessationist global conspiracy” to finally rid the world of rattle-snake loving, poison drinking, Charasmatics – I think I will refer to this incident henceforth as “Mark-gate” –

    HEY maybey it was Constantine who added it in – he is the Sunshine Tafe Bibul Akadimy scapegoat for all historical and theological dilemmas that cannot be directly attributed to Satan isnt he…

  236. Hey Kipling, being a lover of all things Textus Receptus, do you want another entire NT passage which has actually been scratched like an old nag at Randwick from modern translations because (as is the case with “Mark-gate”), the evidence, both external and internal, is decidedly against its authenticity????

    Your right – a hypothesis is always going to lead to debate but a hypothesis supported by objective evidence and a majority of NT and textual critical scholarship is always much more interesting! – it always amazes me how the power of tradition can cause objectivity to abandon ship and cloud the mind with religious affections!

  237. Of course, ELD, think what you want, but you can’t just throw around elitist, theologically impressive phrases like ‘textual criticism’, ‘dynamic equivalent’, and the like as if they mean any more than, “we don’t agree’, or ‘we see it differently because we have never seen these things happen in real life and can’t believe unless we see’, or, using highbrow statements makes you or your peers somehow wiser than the average gospel inspired pleb on the street who merely reads his Bible and acts on it trusting God at his Word.

    Your problem occurs when the pleb does what the Word says, and, lo and behold, it works, making a complete mockery of the aforementioned textual criticism which turns out to be a textual denial of truth.

    The follow-up to this, for you, of course, is documented evidence. Show us the medical reports of genuine healings and we’ll believe you. No medical report? Can’t be true then, can it, as if Jesus had a medical report of every healing, deliverance or dead-raising event he was engaged in?

    Never mind the testimony of the healed, delivered or raised person. They may just be being brain-washed, hypnotised, or fooled because they’re mere plebs. You can’t believe the plebs who are ministered to by other plebs. They don’t have a degree in soteriology, exegesis or homiletics.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with a decent theological education, but it doesn’t generally make a better minister out of the man of faith who merely takes God at his Word. It just makes them better able to teach others how to engage in the same practices. A lawyer is merely a pleb who stayed at school longer and learned stuff from other plebs with degrees.

    Sometimes the best school in life is out on the street, on the highways and byways where the common plebs are. Jesus came to the common plebs, you know.

    Thank God Jesus selected pleb fishermen and tax collectors, and not degree festooned lawyers. Although, it should be noted that Paul, a lawyer of the highest bar, considered his qualifications a heap of dung compared to the higher calling in God, so there are exceptions. But, in general, it is interesting to note that Jesus used the plebs, being the base, weak and foolish, to confound the wise. This way, God gets the glory when other base, foolish and weak plebs are converted, healed, delivered, speak in tongues, prophesy and generally prove God correct when he says the Holy Spirit will be manifested through believers.

    Constantine, of course, wasn’t a pleb. Interestingly he wasn’t baptised until it was almost time to depart this mortal coil. Nothing like an each way bet on eternity. Of course, he made Christianity the legal compulsory religion of the Empire, thus ensuring it would be intermingled and watered down by the profusion of prevailing pagan systems.

    Previously, Christians were a separate, distinct group, much persecuted and martyred for their faith, which, miraculously, in the circumstances, cause amazing increase, to the degree that it began to be the major belief system in the Empire anyway. But their separation was part of the power and appeal to the ordinary plebs of the day. Conversion was a really big deal, and meant leaving all else behind in a dramatic and life-threatening way.

    Once Christianity became the compulsory religion it became a legalistic, binding system which forced itself on the plebs. That’s always been the problem with Constantine.

    And so it will always be when elitists attempt to control the miraculous work of the Spirit.

  238. @Kipling… How do you explain the many Bible-believing Christians who have dies as a result of snake-bite? These people were had so much faith in the literal application of the scriptures, that they brought snakes into their church, which then bit them and killed them https://signposts02.wordpress.com/2009/04/09/well-at-least-these-pentes-are-faithful-to-the-scriptures/

    These kind of stories make me glad I’m one of those lilly-livered unbelieving textual-criticizing liberals.

  239. I wouldn’t know, ELD. You tell me. Are they ‘normal’ or ‘normative’ to the Church in this age?

    Do signs follow the preaching of the gospel you outlined earlier?

    Carson’s gospel is quite expansive and ambiguous, as you presented it. Paul puts it rather more clearly:

    Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.

    And the Spirit confirms it:

    ‘I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient– in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.’

  240. I don’t think those people are either ‘normal’ or normative’ do you, wazza2?

    Do you really think that they are setting the standard for what Jesus says at Mark 16?

    If not, you’re insulting everyone’s intelligence, as they do, by even raising it as anything like a Biblical practice, or relevant interpretation of what Jesus says.

    Here’s the Biblical application:

    Acts 28
    2* And the natives showed us unusual kindness; for they kindled a fire and made us all welcome, because of the rain that was falling and because of the cold.
    3* But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
    4* So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.”
    5* But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.

    But you knew that, didn’t you?

  241. Kipling – ok, I will tell you – the answer to my question is of course “NO” and I know that from “my own experience” because I was in the pente/chasamatic movement myself for many years.

    You know it too but again, you are too wedded to your “traditions” and religious affections to even begin to be honest with yourself….

  242. Do I miss the addictive excitement of constantly living on the edge of the brink of the expectation of the declaration that “God is going to do a new thing”?

    That’s what I left behind – be “wedded to that (particular) tradition”. 😦

    Do I see miracles every day even now as a (new name) “God can do whatever He likes because He’s sovereign soft-cessationist”? Yes. I open my eyes, take a deep breath, a miracle! LIFE!! And coffee…

    Something from Phil Johnson (Pyromaniacs) to read over that coffee perhaps?……

    “…..every true evangelical holds to some form of cessationism. We all believe that the canon of Scripture is closed, right? We do not believe we should be seeking to add new inspired material to the New Testament canon. We hold to the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3)—delivered in the person of Christ, and through the teaching of His apostles, and inscripturated in the New Testament. We believe Scripture as we have it is complete. And those who do not believe that are not really evangelicals. They are cultists and false teachers, who would add to the Word of God.

    But notice this: if you acknowledge that the canon is closed and the gift of apostleship has ceased, you have already conceded the heart of the cessationist argument.

    That’s not all, though. Most leading “Reformed charismatics” go even further than that. They freely admit that all the charismatic gifts in operation today are of a lesser quality than the gifts we read about in the New Testament.

    For example, in Wayne Grudem’s book The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (Wheaton: Crossway, 1988)—probably the single most important and influential work written to defend modern prophecy—Grudem writes that “no responsible charismatic holds” the view that prophecy today is infallible and inerrant revelation from God (p. 111). He says charismatics are arguing for a “lesser kind of prophecy” (112), which is not on the same level as the inspired prophecies of the Old Testament prophets or the New Testament apostles—and which may even be (and very often is) fallible.

    Grudem writes,

    there is almost uniform testimony from all sections of the charismatic movement that [today’s] prophecy is impure, and will contain elements which are not to be obeyed or trusted.

    Jack Deere, former Dallas Seminary prof-turned charismatic advocate, likewise admits in his book Surprised by the Power of the Holy Spirit (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1993), that he has not seen anyone today performing miracles or possessing gifts of the same quality as the signs and wonders of the apostolic era. In fact, Deere argues vehemently throughout his book that modern charismatics do not even claim to have apostolic-quality gifts and miracle-working abilities. One of Deere’s main lines of defense against critics of the charismatic movement is his insistence that modern charismatic gifts are actually lesser gifts than those available in the apostolic era, and therefore, he suggests, they should not be held to apostolic standards.

    Again, consider the implications of that claim: Deere and Grudem have, in effect, conceded the entire cessationist argument. They have admitted that they are themselves cessationists of sorts. They believe that the true apostolic gifts and miracles have ceased, and they are admitting that what they are claiming today is not the same as the charismata described in the New Testament.

    In other words, modern charismatics have already adopted a cessationist position. When pressed on the issue, all honest charismatics are forced to admit that the “gifts” they receive today are of lesser quality than those of the apostolic era.

    Contemporary tongues-speakers do not speak in understandable or translatable dialects, the way the apostles and their followers did at Pentecost. Charismatics who minister on the foreign mission-field are not typically able to preach the gospel miraculously in the tongues of their hearers. Charismatic missionaries have to go to language school like everyone else.

    If all sides already acknowledge that there are no modern workers of signs and wonders who can really duplicate apostolic power, then we have no actual argument about the principle of cessationism, and therefore all the frantic demands for biblical and exegetical support for cessationism are superfluous. The real gist of our disagreement boils down only to a question of degree.

    In a very helpful book, Satisfied by the Promise of the Spirit (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1996), Thomas Edgar writes,

    The charismatic movement gained credence and initial acceptance by claiming their gifts were the same as those in Acts. For most people this is why they are credible today. Yet now one of their primary defenses is the claim that [the gifts] are not the same [as those in the New Testament.] Faced with the facts, they have had to revoke the very foundation of their original reason for existence. (p. 32)

    As for biblical arguments, in Scripture itself, there is ample evidence that miracles were extraordinary, rare events, usually associated in some significant way with people who spoke inspired and infallible utterances. It is obvious from the biblical narrative that miracles were declining in frequency even before the apostolic era drew to a close. Scripture says the miracles were apostolic signs (2 Corinthians 12:12), and therefore by definition they pertained specifically and uniquely to the apostolic era.”

  243. But you cant have it both ways, FL. You hit people over the head with a literal interpretation of the Bible when it suits you, but if it dosent suit then you just say its not a correct interpretation and insults everyone’s intelligence.

    The people in those churches (the ones that have survived) would say they have a fuller understanding of the Gospel than you and that they take it more seriously. They would say to people who have lost loved-ones in the church “I’m sorry about your experience, but it dosent change what the Bible says”

    Jesus also said “If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out”. Maybe that and the fact that there are so many pretty worship leaders in Pente churches, explains why their congregations are so one-eyed.

  244. I gave you the correct interpretation, wazza2. I don’t think Jesus was talking about imaginary healings or deliverance. It was clear what he meant about snakes and deadly poison, and that is, in its correct application, as I presented it, literally understood.

    Besides, as stated earlier, it is a Biblical standard that we do not act on an individual verse or witness, but on the context of the whole. You are obfuscating, and it is beneath your own intelligence.

    I have witnesses healings, deliverance and, at times, what could only be termed miracles, ELD. I am asking you what experiences you have had which deny them. The facts I have seen would appear to contradict yours.

    I couldn’t heal a shoe, so as far as I am concerned, what I have seen testifies that Jesus still heals today, and the gifts have not ended.

    @teddy… again, the evangelicals you quote demonstrate their lack of belief in the healing, delivering, miracle working God, who is the same today as he ever was. Taking the testimony of a couple of charismatics and applying it to the whole of the Pentecostal movement is shortsighted at best.

    I take it, then, that you are all in the cessationist camp, even though you claim not to be or to be agnostic, since you are defending the right to declare that the Holy Spirit is no longer manifesting himself through the Church, as outlined in 1 Corinthians 12, Hebrews 2:4, 1 Thes. 1:4, and in the life of Jesus, who said believers would do these things and greater.

  245. @Kipling – you can say whatever you like. I’m not seeing anyone denying God’s sovereign (as He wills) power at work today.

    So as far as you’re concerned Grudem and Deere’s thoughts are of no account? Where is your latest “single and most influential work” recognised by the charismatic community (and evidence of the miraculous).

  246. It has nothing to do with any individual, teddy. It has everything to do with God, and whether he has stopped doing what he promised.

    If we are not seeing the miracles he promised in the Word, either he is a liar, which he can’t be, or we have to find out what the Church is lacking.

    Otherwise, what was the point of the passages of scripture which point to a continuing demonstration of God’s power, and to the distributions f he Spirit being to every man as he wills. Why so few, if he says ‘every man’?

    maybe the Church has further to go that your quoted ‘experts’ have experience of, or of what they have not yet seen

    Basing theology on experience, or on what is seen is always going to lead to human error.

    Rather than looking for ways to incorrectly exegete scripture to show that miracles have ended, why not look for the shortcomings in the Church which prevent us from seeing what God clearly promises.

  247. “If we are not seeing the miracles he promised in the Word, either he is a liar, which he can’t be, or we have to find out what the Church is lacking”.

    That is the most telling comment, about where you have positioned yourself, that I have ever heard.

  248. When I say ‘we’, I am talking about the Church as a whole, and in particular those who doubt God, although I do not share this view, as I am not a doubter.

    I am part of the Church, and, although I believe what God says, I understand there are those of ‘us’ who doubt. We’re in this together.

    I have made it abundantly clear I have no personal problem with the fact that healing, deliverance and miracles take place. I have seen all, and expect all. God is alive today, and he is the same as he ever was towards people, and in operating through the Church.

    My comment was generic, not absolutely personal. I hope that clears it up for you before yo go off on a tangent. I notice a trend towards taking a sentence out of the context of the whole to ‘prove’ another aspect of an argument, which is also ‘telling’.

    I was actually hinting that this should be where the doubters position themselves.

    I am a believer.

  249. “I have witnesses healings, deliverance and, at times, what could only be termed miracles, ELD. I am asking you what experiences you have had which deny them.”

    uhhh….like the majority of people…Ive had….no experiences of the “miraculous” (i.e. healings, legs growing back etc..) as a pente for many years in different churches or now as a Reformed Baptist – thats the….uhh..point???

    I dont think you have either, I think youre a bit prone to telling porkie pies…

    I dont need “signs and wonders” to confirm my faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God when I can trust his word and experience His providence, your insatiable appetite for the “supernatural” is based on false premises and what appears to be defective understanding of the Gospel and is bordering on idolatry & paganism – like Specks has said of the C3 movement – its basically neo-Gnosticism, not biblical and historical Christianity.

    But you cant see this because you have been blinded by tradition – you have always just “assumed” the inbalanced emphasis on signs and wonders characteristic of the modern pente movement is central to what christianity is about – I know this because I have been there myself….

  250. “Your insatiable appetite for the “supernatural” is based on false premises and what appears to be defective understanding of the Gospel and is bordering on idolatry & paganism – like Specks has said of the C3 movement – its basically neo-Gnosticism, not biblical and historical Christianity.”

    They preach another spirit and not the Jesus Christ of the bible. This is why I appreciate people like Rhonda Byrne, who wrote the famour New Age, gnostic book ‘The Secret’. Her books reveal the type of ‘faith’ and ‘power’ that people like Pringle teach. She has just released a new book called, ‘The Power’. Watch the trailer here:

    http://www.thesecret.tv/

    This is the faith that faith-preachers preach.
    The graphics and advertising style are very similar to C3. How can we call these preachers or places Christian? Would you say they have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worship and serve created things rather than the Creator?

    The bible says, Romans 1:25 “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised.”

    Is this not what we are seeing God do to ‘Christians’ in the church?

    Romans 1:28 “Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.”

    Is this proof that these men weren’t Christian to begin with?

  251. In a lot of ways, I find people like Prince worse. More people fall for his ‘gospel of grace’, without realising that he is still teaching the exact neo-gnostic and legalistic faith teaching of the Word of Faith movement.

  252. Don’t judge me on your shortcomings, ELD. Judge yourself.

    What’s more likely: that God says he heals through the Church, and that healings do take place, or, that God says he heals through the Church and no healings take place?

    I can understand your scepticism if you have never witnessed healings, or deliverance, but don’t judge others on your lack of experience. Isn’t it as much a failing to base your doctrine on what you don’t experience as much as on what you do experience? Shouldn’t our faith be based on what the Word says?

    Like you, I don’t base anything in my life on ‘signs and wonders’. My faith is in Christ alone, and in the work of the cross and resurrection. If I never saw a healing again I would still believe. The starting point for faith is Christ, and him alone.

    I received Christ before I read in the Word about signs and wonders, healing and deliverance, tongues or prophecy. They became Biblically sound pursuits. Had I ever known about them, I would not have needed an interest in them, because I received Christ, and that is what really matters in life.

    But now you call me a liar for having genuinely experienced healings and deliverance in my life and in the lives of many people ministered to. That is truly sad.

    What tradition of liberty form the devil’s works could I be blinded by? The tradition of the Word, which talks of healing, of deliverance, of signs, wonders, miracles, distributions of gifts and manifestations of the Spirit? How is that being blinded? Surely that is enlightenment.

    How is a person’s recovery from affliction a blind event? How is a person’s deliverance form demon possession not observed as good and God-inspired?

    You seem so totally convinced that the absence of evidence of healings or deliverance in your life is proof positive that God doesn’t heal or deliver people.

    I can’t understand that mindset, frankly, when the very Bible you swear by tells you the opposite. Why aren’t you going out of your way to discover what the missing ingredient in your ministry is, rather than attempt to prove yourself right, and God wrong, since God clearly speaks often of healing and deliverance as a part of the ministry of the Church?

    When you’re asked by a desperate grandmother to go to the children’s intensive care unit at the local hospital to pray for a prematurely born infant who is about to be taken off life support because the staff doesn’t believe she’ll last the night, then what will you do? Give grandmother your doctrinal stance according to your favourite cessationist theologians? Or forget your sceptical aversion to truth, and go to God with it and show the compassion that Christ has poured into you through his Spirit, with the power of healing and deliverance which can even revive the life of that tiny infant? Is God still the God of the impossible today, or not?

    That little girl is ten years old and healthy to day, because God cares, and answers prayers.

    I have so many absolutely true stories of God’s healing and delivering power to tell, it lifts me to just think about them. Call me what you want. I know what God can and will do through a willing vessel.

  253. I don’t have any problem praying for impossible situations, at the same time trusting that the situation is in God’s hands and if He chooses to take the child home, He is still a God who loves, heals, disciplines etc etc, IF IT IS HIS WILL. And it’s not always His will…….

  254. A couple of scriptures for the agnostic who doesn’t know if the manifestations are for today or not:

    ‘Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant…’

    and…

    ‘Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.’

    You have to desire, be zealous for, the spiritual gifts and manifestations. That’s what Paul tells us. You have to be rid of ignorance of spiritual matters. You have to make yourself constantly available to the Spirit to be used to bring relief to people in need.

    But what can I say, ELD? You’ve never seen healing or deliverance? Everyone has to start somewhere. Just go to a friend in need and ask if you can lay hands on them in the name of Jesus and believe God for change. ‘Freely you have received, freely give’. Isn’t that what Jesus says? Always remember that you can’t do anything but obey his command to reach out. He does all the amazing bits through the Spirit. He just needs someone to be his hands and voice in the earth. What do you have to lose but your fear of failure?

    John 14
    12* “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
    13* “And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
    14* “If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.”

  255. @Kipling “I received Christ before I read in the Word about signs and wonders, healing and deliverance, tongues or prophecy.”

    sorry….I am a bit confused here in light of that comment, in the context of Galatians 1:8 how is cessationism is another gospel again? you said before healing, tongues and prophecy are PART OF the practical preaching of the gospel and that the Holy Spirit confirmed the Word with signs.

    How were you then saved if the same didnt accompany the preaching of the Gospel – you have just said that you were saved by a gospel without accompanying miraculous signs…..

  256. Cessationist Anglican rector on a door-knock. Romans’ road. We were ready, having been witnessed to by several different people at different times.

    Sadly, when we read about healing, the gifts, prophecy, tongues and the rest, he said we didn’t need the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, much as you do. In fact, he said we didn’t need to know about the Spirit, which drew us off to the charismatics, first, and then the Pentecostals. Go figure! He used your arguments, too.

    However, this didn’t mean that the Spirit wasn’t at work with him anyway. How would we, as people hearing the gospel, know if the Spirit was at work with him? We found out later because we searched the scriptures.

    You’re not confused at all. You’re engaging in circumlocution.
    ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

    God is Jehovah and he doesn’t change. God is still the Healer. He reveals himself as Jehovah Rapha. You can’t change that.

    At least teddy believes he will heal if it’s his will.

    Are you saying God doesn’t heal today? Why?

  257. @ELD,

    “I dont need “signs and wonders” to confirm my faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God when I can trust his word and experience His providence […]”

    And neither you should need such things to confirm your faith. Indeed, God commends those who “have not seen, and yet still believe”. Our faith is precious to Him exactly because it is based on “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see”.

    Nevertheless, God has the power to perform miracles, and it is sometimes within His will to do so. However, it is important to understand the conditions under which God *may* perform a miracle, and the circumstances under which He will most definitely not do so. He may perform a miracle in response to the petition of a humble and contrite man; He will not perform miracles on demand or to satisfy the unbelieving (Jesus refused to provide a sign for the Pharisees, for instance); nor will he do so for the high-minded and arrogant.

    There are many in Pentecostal circles with a WOF outlook on miracles – they think that they can “command” the Holy Spirit to do their bidding. This is obviously very dangerous ground to be on, since it is verging on occultic practice. In fact, if one asks long enough or hard enough for the wrong thing, or with the wrong motives, it may be that a miracle will be provided – but not by God. For example, the “signs and wonders” of the current false revivals are from demonic sources.

    However, even in pentecostal churches that are not diving enthusiastically into the muddied waters of demonic delusion, there is a big problem: the cult of personality (pastor-worship) and spiritual elitism (“This is the BEST church in Australia”) mean that *if* a real miracle is performed, many in the congregation are quick to praise the pastor / church / movement. This grieves the Holy Spirit and may engender God’s ire, as it is written “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.” So real miracles are few and far between, because God withholds his blessing from those who glorify themselves, who mishandle the Bible, who preach heresy (tithing anyone?), and whose aim is to “succeed” by getting bums on seats (what they call “growth”) and by fleecing the flock of their money. Not only that, but the saccharine man-pleasing Gospel preached in pentecostal churches does not yield disciples; that is, it does not produce the sort of men who pay the price of obedience to God and whose prayer is commensurately powerful and effective. In fact, the spirit of the pentecostal movement has become an offense to God, and many of the Christians therein are variously ignorant, vain, shallow, self-centred and self-seeking. (That is, after all, the model they are shown by their “leadership”). This is why someone can spend a long time in the pentecostal movement and not see miracles. So you shouldn’t throw out the baby with the bathwater just because some charlatans preach a dodgy or false Gospel that includes an unhealthy emphasis on signs and wonders; I’m sure you’re more discerning than that.

  258. “At least teddy believes he will heal if it’s his will.”

    I certianly agree…..

  259. Actually, I thought God healed people because they were sick and he is the Healer.

    I wasn’t aware of so many conditions, rules and regulations involved in healing, or that it was a doctrinal issue rather than a compassion and mercy issue.

    Imagine going to the local hospital and they say they won’t give you any pain relief because you don’t know their rules, haven’t joined the union, or contributed to their Christmas club! There’d be outcry.

    God heals the saved an the unsaved.

    In fact, when Jesus was healing people there were no righteous, no not one!

    He said he didn’t come for the righteous but for the sinner. He said he was the Physician sent to the sick, not to the perfectly well.

    Religion! What a curse it is!

  260. Maybey I live in a part of the country with bad air or water pollution or something but do people die of illnesses, afflictions, and sicknesses where you are from or does everybody recover???

  261. Jesus paid the price of everyone’s sin. Is everyone saved?

    Not if we fail to preach the gospel, so that they don’t hear the gospel, and believe the gospel.

    Back to Mark 16:
    15* And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16* “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    Or do you say these verses don’t exist because they are not in the two oldest manuscripts?

    Salvation is by grace through faith, which comes by hearing, and hearing by the preaching of the Word of faith.

    Healing and deliverance are signs which accompany the preaching of the Word of faith.

    Study the ministry of Jesus and you will see this clearly demonstrated. He healed no one until he was endued with power from on high, baptised with the Spirit, anointed for the Messianic ministry.

    But you knew that, surely.

  262. How come, by your own admission, signs didnt accompany your conversion?

    If healing and other miracles are normative as you tell everybody how come you wont confirm whether the same miraculous or suprnatural events a normative (i.e. occuring apart of any normal service on the weekend.

    I think pente churches, contrary to their own inflated opinion of themselves, are no more “spiritual” than any other denomination. To my knowledge there is no credible documented evidence of anything miraculous that has ever happened in a pentecostal/charasmatic church…this is very strange indeed when one considers the volumes of claims made by people in these organisations describing miraculous events occuring on a regular basis.

    You appear to be making the same kinds of claims, yet you cant produce any evidence – not even of these events occuring in OTHER petecostal/charasmatic churces across the world….and on top of that you have hypocritically criticised me of being spiritually impotent and having no concept the miraculous workings of the Holy Spirit – which is what your denomination “specialises” in…

    You people are seriously deluded – like my own experience, I dont believe you have ever seen a divine miraculous intervention of God in the natural order like the Apostles experienced….I think you have convinced yourself you have….but you haven’t…my father in law is a carbon copy of you (its kind of humorous!)….

    I thank God that Christianity is actually not at all what you and your compatriots misrepresent it to the world as being…

  263. BTW – You are assuming that I beleive Jesus paid the price for the sin of every single person in the world that has ever lived because again, you are ignorant of anyones beliefs apart from your own….

    I believe the Scriptures clearly teach Jesus didnt pay the price of everyone’s sin – Im a Calvinist you goose I believe in particular redemption!!! – seriously, you need to do less preaching and more learning….

  264. @CCC’er well said there and I agree, I shouldnt throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    Kipling is a WOF’er like his Marcionite freind TVD and unfortunately is bathwater that has had the baby deposit number 2’s in it about 10 times over – I have no probs throwing out that kind of stinky stuff!

    You on the other hand are a different kind – do you attend a C3 church? if so how do you bear it – you appear to be quite “normal”????

  265. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but see everlasting life.”

    In these verses, the condition that limits the atonement is found – “whosoever believes” (literal Greek) – “all the believing ones). In other words, the atonement is limited to those who believe and only those who believe.

    As much as I don’t like this, I accept it……it’s the consistent, historic protestant view.

    As John wrote “for God so loved the world……”, in John 17:9 Jesus is saying ….I pray not for the world”, with the promise of the Holy Spirit in John 14:17″….even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive”.

    Not all are considered His sheep John 10:26 “But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you”….

    Who IS doing the limiting here?

  266. @ ELD – lately I’m not surprised to hear there are conservative bible believers still at C3. Unlike us :), some are choosing to stay and they ARE Reformed.. and perhaps going to be part of sweeping Reform (parden the pun).

  267. @ELD, the problem you have with your last 3 efforts is that you made them up. Just made it all up! Especially at 3.09pm.

    The thing is, unless you can box a person up you can’t really insult them the way you’d like.

    Thus, your discursive method of argument revives. Jump from subject to subject, cherry-pick answers, and arrange them into a false thesis, claiming that’s what I said, and arguing against it. Fakery!

    I’ve had it with covering the same old ground with you, because I’ve seen what you d with the truth, so I won’t retrace my steps, they’re on this thread for anyone to see.
    ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

    Of course you don’t believe Jesus died once and for all. I just wanted you to say it, and you did.

    You’re an elitist.

    That’s why you enjoyed CCCer’s comment, which gave out so many rules, regulations, conditions, clauses, subclauses and stipulations as to why God would heal anyone it could have been a Labour Party manifesto. Elitists love to think they are special enough to qualify for God’s grace, when in truth, no one is.

    You’re religious.

    Which is why CCCer’s manifesto appealed so much. It laid out, in complex terms, designed to exclude, rather than include, exactly why the majority of people on earth, past, present and future, could not possibly qualify for healing. No one could match those requirements. Religious elitists love to put conditions on others so it is difficult for them to enter into the same exclusive club.

    At least he says God can heal. But conditionally.

    And you say he can save. But conditionally.

    Not conditionally on believing that Jesus is Lord, on the redemptive work of the cross, and the life which comes with his resurrection, or that he has made provision for salvation which is gratis, for those who receive Jesus, and therefore, for those who receive his grace.

    But, in salvation, you agree, conditionally on their being amongst the elect.

    And, in healing, you agree, conditionally on meeting all the requirements set out by CCCer.

    I don’t see a single saved person healed under Jesus’ ministry. I don’t see a single righteous person delivered under Jesus’ ministry.

    No one was saved until he was risen.

    Yet he healed them and delivered because they came to him for healing and deliverance. He healed because he had compassion on them. Some he delivered even when he didn’t want to, like the Samaritan woman’s daughter. He even performed a miracle for his mother because she requested, almost demanded, it of him. He was a Man who loved his people. That’s why he wept over them. he saw them scattered across the countryside like sheep without a shepherd, and wanted to gather them. he saw them sick and ravaged by sin and wanted to free them. “Why should not this daughter of Abraham be made free from the devil?” He was sent to loose the world and heal them from the oppression of the devil.

    But you want to bind them to your rules.

    There were so many coming for healing that he sent his 12 to them. Then he sent another 70 (not Apostles you notice). Then he commissioned the saints, those who believe to go and do the works he did.

    Freely you have received, freely give!

    God’s matchless grace is great enough and all-encomapssing enough for all who have sinned. Christ’s cross is far-reaching enough for all who have sinned. His righteousness is powerful enough to redeem all who have sinned. His resurrection is great enough to receive all who have sinned.

    The only prerequisite to receiving his grace is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Everything listed by CCCer is works-based and there is no human righteousness which is any more than filthy rags.

    Religion. The curse of ages!

  268. Incidentally, ELD, I didn’t say we couldn’t medically attest to some of the healings we have seen, but that I wouldn’t here. I don’t have to prove a thing to you. It’s your problem if you can’t believe, not mine. God heals today. Jesus is still the Healer.

    Salvation is for all will believe, that is why the gospel is for all who will believe.

    Or do you limit the scope of the gospel also?

    And the scope of the cross?

  269. @ Kipling – if we/they are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, how can you say they were not saved? Remember “all those You have given Me”?

  270. @Teddy – can you imagine being Reformed at Kipling’s church, I think I would safer to be an outed gay member at the Westborough Baptist Church in Topica Kansas!!! 🙂

    Kipling, you would fit in well at Calvary Chapel – plastic sharpens plastic (or was that iron….?)

  271. @Kipling – the only thing I am limiting at the moment is my expectations of getting anything non-contradictory and coherent from you…

  272. @ELD – there are some who believe the homophobic Fred Phelps of Westbro fame may, in fact, be hiding a dark secret of his own…….?

  273. @teddy, I’m not sure it would serve any good purpose to slug it out with dedicated reformists over whether Jesus died once and for all, or for a limited number of people. I think we’d go round in circles and get nowhere.

    What I do object to is the stance taken by some reformists, maybe not you, which considers any other doctrinal understanding to be anathema. There are merits to the reformed school, but also weaknesses. The same with Arminianism.

    I’ve seen some very imaginative navigation around scripture by both sides, but I think, on the whole, the reformed team can be far more exclusive, condemnatory, and very abrasive towards anyone who refuses to accept all they say.

    I think ELD has shown it on this thread, which prompted my indignant response to his elitism and religiosity.

    The truth is I can’t trust the man-imagined theology of either party over the God-inspired canon of scripture we have been given. I don’t believe God has handed us a complicated gospel, or one which the weak, base and foolish amongst us cannot grasp, understand and actively be engaged in for his glory.

    I’m more interested in what Jesus has told us to do in these last days.

    Of course we all agree God only heals if it is his will. That is a no-brainer.

    The thing is, can God’s will be known? Has he given reason for us to hope for healing or deliverance in given situations? Does he promise anything in his word which prompts us to act on his Word?

  274. @ELD…’How come, by your own admission, signs didnt accompany your conversion?’

    I didn’t actually say that. You made that up. That is what you do.

    I said that we didn’t know about signs following until we read about it in the Word. How would we know? We were unsaved when the Rector walked into our home.

    You really don’t grasp how salvation works, do you?

    Have you ever preached the gospel to anyone, outside of some apologetic discourse on a website?

    In fact, there were signs accompanying the preaching of the gospel when we were saved, but we didn’t understand it until some years later, when we discovered more about the ministry of the Holy Spirit, as he accompanies believers who preach the gospel.

    In fact, we realised a couple of days later, we had a glorious deliverance from alcohol dependency that very moment. Never needed a drop since.

    Is that a sign enough for you? I’ll watch what you do with this testimony, because I don’t trust you with it, even though I’ve opened up a little to help you get past a bias you have.

    Since then we’ve been able to assist many people with various addictions overcome their dependency, thanks to Jesus!

  275. @teddy… you don’t really want to go down this road, do you?

    The question is over simplistic, and you know it. Even Reformists aren’t in agreement over this, since it could be argued that all were in the Book at birth, but sin blotted them out, so who could have been in the Book prior to Christ’s cross, since none was righteous, no not one, so all must have been blotted out. Does sin separate us from God, but not from being blotted out of the Book?

    So, at the cross? Since Christ was the Lamb slain before time, and therefore God projected to the Lamb slain – Christ at the cross – before the foundation of the earth as his reference. Were you in Christ both before accepting him as Lord, and after, or without accepting him? Were you in Christ on the cross? Wasn’t every sinner in Christ at the cross? If so is everyone in the Book, or only those who accept him?

    How do we know who is in the Book?

    Look, best to leave the Calvin discussion to another thread.

  276. What about people who are saved yet still suffer from alcohol dependency AFTER conversion??

    What about the many homosexuals who have repented and experienced a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ yet still are plagued with same sex attraction….where is your gospel for them, pastor???

    What about myself, among many others, I still struggle with the sin that besets so many young men with the opposite sex – but for the grace of God I would probably be a serial adulterer;

    what about your unscriptual dependancy on the fastidious pursuit of signs and wonders – why were you not delivered from that – its called idolatry and it is no better than alcoholism or adultery of the heart?

    Whay are you so indifferent to the Truth and sound doctrine? – Theology matters my freind and like many a labourer in field (both Arminian and Calvinist) said your spiritual father, Charles Finney, long ago: “why are we telling them “HOW” to be saved without telling them “WHY” they need to be saved”???

    Because you dont love truth…..

  277. What about Calvinists who get very angry on websites?

    We can all throw what-about this and what-about that, ELD.

    What is it you’re so angry about, man?

    You are starting to act like a serial accuser. No matter what anyone says to you, especially those you latch on to and proceed to attempt to dominate and discredit, you will keep on coming at them, like a raging bull, horns flailing, tongue flicking spittle and froth, foaming at the mouth, eyes ablaze, wide open and fixed on your prey, slamming, slamming, subtle as a sledgehammer on an egg.

    Am I your enemy? Is TVD? Any other you’ve flailed with condemning words?

    What are you trying to say in the midst of this anger?

    What is wrong with ‘fastidious pursuit of signs and wonders’? It’s Biblical. ‘Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth’.

    How on earth can it be idolatry to believe God. It’s only idolatry if it replaces Christ, not glorifies Christ.

    How can I be delivered from being obedient to the Word of God? How can I be delivered from being filled with the Spirit? How can I be delivered from serving Christ? Why would I want to be delivered form the ONe who saved me?

    Alcoholism is a terrible affliction my friend. I hope you never have to live there. It destroys lives and families, businesses and nations. You can keep strong wine.

    Give me the Holy Spirit any day.

    ‘And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God.’

    I’m far from indifferent to truth and sound doctrine.

    It has saved my life, my marriage, my family, my future and my ministry countless times. It has helped touch the lives God has called me to. It has reached into lives and taken me places I would never have thought possible had Jesus Christ of Nazareth not rescued me from the tragic road I was on before he apprehended me with the gospel.

    Of course theology matters. I have never denied this. Theologians help us all. But what matters more is Biblical accuracy and truth. What matters more is a relationship with Christ. What matters more is walking in love.

    You can know all theology and have all knowledge but if you don’t have love you’re just a dinner bell ringing in the middle of the night in ICU.

    Knowledge, old son, puffs up, but love edifies.

    Now, being once again discursive, you have the hide to say we don’t tell people why they need to be saved. You act as if we have never read Finney’s volumes on discipleship. You have boxed us in your imagination, but we keep breaking out in reality.

    Finally, I love truth so much I have dedicated my life to he pursuit of it. But not without first being sold out to Jesus Christ, because without him, nothing matters.

  278. “Theologians help us all. But what matters more is Biblical accuracy and truth…..”

    That has to be the most stupid, TVD exonerating…. statement I have EVER seen on this blog!! – here’s silly old me thinking theology was concerned with biblical accuracy and truth….oh well

    Honestly, what formal qualifications do you have to be a pastor?? I am serious – you are simply astonishing Kipling/FL, in our state in WA you cant even paint someone’s wall for money without being registered with the WA Painter’s Board – do you have a painter in you congregation Kipling?

    Does the [hypothetical] painter in your congregation turn around and bite the cognitive process that he has learnt and applied through his learing to contribute to humanity and put food on the table….does he spurn it….does he hate it like you do??????

    A pastor IS a theologian – so is any believer….does an Architect say “Technical drawing school has helped us all, but what is REALLY important is the planning, design and oversight of the construction of buildings –

    DA!!! are you taking the piss or what????

  279. You’re making far too many assumptions there, ELD.

    On theologians, wasn’t Arius one? Do you concur with his theology because he was a theologian? What about Charles Taze Russell? He considered himself a theologian?

    What about Arminius? John Wesley?

    Do you recommend all the readers look into the following theological site:

    http://evangelicalarminians.org/index

  280. Uhhh….nobody is saying there is no such thing as an incompetent theologian – or even an incompetent pastor…

    One can be a theologian without being a Pastor, one CANNOT be a Pastor without being a theologian…

    One can be a crap theologian

    One can be a crap pastor

    One cannot be a crap theologian but a “good” pastor (save and except in C3 pente land where its an actual recruiting requirement)

  281. So we need to engage in Biblical accuracy and truth through diligent, personal, Baraean-style study of the Word, just in case theologians have stuffed it up. Is that correct?

    Or to put it another way. Since not all theologians have accurate doctrine, we need to measure all theology against the accepted canon of scripture, in context. Is that correct?

    Further, it is better to trust God’s Word, especially Christ’s doctrine over theologians’ doctrine. Is that correct?

  282. A good start for you would be to put away your Joyce Myer, Rick Joyner, and John Bevere books and other stuff which might as well have been written in crayon and actually purchase some material that may assist you in conveying basic theological Christian truths and more importantly “why it is significant and important that Christians believe them” this is called Catechisis (dont worry – this wasnt inveted by Calvin, its a biblical word and occurs a number of places in the NT).

  283. @ELD,

    ‘You on the other hand are a different kind – do you attend a C3 church? if so how do you bear it – you appear to be quite “normal”????’

    Yes, a very different kind, much to the chagrin of some with whom I speak at my church – which is indeed of the C3 variety. How this came about and how I bear it is an interesting story to which I will devote a separate post. (Perhaps I should be considering a deal regarding book rights).

    @Kipling,

    ‘That’s why you enjoyed CCCer’s comment, which gave out so many rules, regulations, conditions, clauses, subclauses and stipulations as to why God would heal anyone it could have been a Labour Party manifesto.’

    I take exception to that suggestion; it is patently untrue! What I said was:

    “[God] may perform a miracle in response to the petition of a humble and contrite man”.

    That is, if someone who is in right standing with God asks of Him, then He will hear and HE WILL ANSWER! (As you are no doubt aware, there are three possible answers to prayer: “Yes”, “No”, and “Not yet”). This is as straightforward and as scriptural as can possibly be; I can’t believe for one moment that *anyone* would take issue with me over this!

    Where my post got a little involved was in detailing exactly how and why pentecostal churches miss the mark so badly; that is, in detailing the reasons and extent to which they typically do not qualify as “humble and contrite men”. Pentecostal “leaders” spout ad nauseam about how good they are, how good their churches are, how powerful their movements are, how well respected they are, and so on. These who boast of God’s anointing on their lives are in reality the *very antithesis* of those who should be expecting God’s seal of approval as evidenced by the works of the Holy Spirit. Self-satisfied, arrogant, and smugly dismissive of dissenting points of view, these “uber-Christians” think that their big churches and wealth mark them as specially blessed, when in fact they are distant from God. Among these who so proudly boast of how quickly their movements have “grown”, how many have ever considered what happened to Israel when David took a census of the fighting men? How many have the spiritual perspicacity to discern the import of that powerful object lesson from the old testament? These men are dullards in spiritual matters because they have not loved God or his word, and have thus laid hold of neither. This is an issue of no small importance, as I am sure you can appreciate.

    One more thing regarding healing that has been touched on in some of the posts above: when God heals, it is because he loves us, and doesn’t like to see us suffer. That is his motive, and it is his strong desire. My prayer is that He will raise up *truly* Spirit-filled men who love Him with all their hearts, and through whom the Holy Spirit can move powerfully to do His will. In the time that God does this, you can be assured that He, and He alone, will receive all the glory that is His due, and that self-promoting grand-standing glory grabbers will be well and truly humbled and put to shame. I can’t wait to see it.

  284. Thanks for that explanation, CCCer. I’ll take note of your correction.

    Jesus must be our example on who qualifies for healing, and, whilst it could be said that in their desperation there was some contrition of sorts, I get the impression he healed because they were sick and came to him. On occasion scripture tells us he healed all who came to him and cast out many demons.

    Could you say that only righteous people came to him?

    ‘He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”’

    He came for the sinners. He came for the sick. He came to loose us form the works of the devil.

    ‘For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.’ ‘Destroy’ – ‘luo’ – ‘loosen’.

    ‘God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.’

    So the qualification for healing and deliverance is demonic oppression. Jesus came to set the captives free.

    People were, and still are bound by the devil. The ministry of the Holy Spirit today repeats the ministry of Jesus when he walked the earth, loosing people from oppression as we preach the gospel.

    It’s not healing or deliverance which saves a person, but the acceptance of Jesus as Lord. Healing and deliverance declare the will of God to set people free from the devil’s oppressions.

  285. Hello Kipling,

    “Thanks for that explanation, CCCer. I’ll take note of your correction.”

    No worries; I understand that I was less clear than I might have been in my original post.

    “[…] I get the impression he healed because they were sick and came to [Jesus].”

    Absolutely. They were sick, which aroused His compassion, and they came to Him, which was an act of faith occasioned by the mercy shown by the Father (“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him”).

    This is a picture of salvation: the sick (sinners) come to Jesus (Saviour) for healing (forgiveness) having been drawn by the Father (“By grace […] not by works”).

    “Could you say that only righteous people came to him?”

    Some who came to Him for physical healing were in right standing with God and some were not. For all of them, though, this was more than just physical healing (as per what I wrote above). It is clear that salvation and healing often go hand-in-hand, which is understandable since sin and sickness both spring from the same root; that is, from the fall. For example, consider the case of the man who was born blind, whom Jesus healed, and who later confessed Jesus as Lord and worshipped Him. The interesting thing in that account is that it is quite clear that the order was healing-salvation, and not salvation-healing.

    “‘He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”’”

    And there’s the humility angle: Jesus spoke this against the self-righteous, against the Pharisees. The point is that we are *all* spiritually sick, since we have all sinned. However, Jesus can only help those who will humble themselves and admit their need.

    Contrition and humility go together; you can’t be saved without both. The former is the sorrow over your fallen state and the latter is the willingness to accept God’s way of salvation that is “foolishness to those who are perishing”. So it takes an attitude of “contrition and humility” to arrive at “repent and believe”.

    “People were, and still are bound by the devil. The ministry of the Holy Spirit today repeats the ministry of Jesus when he walked the earth, loosing people from oppression as we preach the gospel.”

    Quite true. Note, however, that preaching a *faux* gospel may make people feel good about themselves, and it may persuade them to part with their money, but it won’t loose them from oppression. This is why pentecostalism in its current deplorable state is anathema: it’s all clouds without rain – holding out hope to the suffering but, in the end, leaving them cruelly bound just the same.

    “It’s not healing or deliverance which saves a person, but the acceptance of Jesus as Lord. Healing and deliverance declare the will of God to set people free from the devil’s oppressions.”

    That’s true. I think it’s important to acknowledge that not everyone is healed; we know this from scripture and also by experience. I can’t really comment on deliverance, since it is not something of which I have a good understanding (although I am confident that God will fill in the blanks for me at the appropriate time).

    I hope the above clarifies my position somewhat. I am no theologian, however I read the Bible and meditate on it, and I find that God sometimes gives me understanding, or perhaps a verse that is appropriate in a given context. It’s important to remember that some truths are eternally and incontrovertibly immutable, but much is open to conjecture and debate, and always will be. The most important thing is that God knows the truth of all things, and if we love Him and stay close to Him, we will by no means led astray.

  286. Rosebrough’s recent slander is appalling, and demonstrates a lack of maturity. His ‘pirate language’ is disgusting:

    “I’m bringing the Pirate Ship around and have the cannons loaded again and am ready for a full broadside against you.”

    It seems his scornful approach can be unloaded on anybody if you point out the doctrinal errors of one of his buddies. He owes Ingrid a public apology, and he would do well to look closely at Horton’s doctrine (in addition to his suspect associations) before he jumps to his defense.

    Wolves are prowling discernment circles. Where is the humility?

  287. Whether or not Horton is a “bridger” you decide. Understanding every stream of apostasy that Rick Warren helps popularize (Dr. Destiny, Schuller’s self-esteem gospel, Leonard Sweet, Tony Blair, Norman Vincent Peale’s possibility thinking, Erwin McManus, Dan Southerland, Henri Nouwen, Muslims, Mormons, etc.) it would make sense that any sound teacher who is not ignorant of Warren’s teachings would keep their distance from anything Saddleback, let alone pose for a picture and participate in a forum.

    Horton’s own teaching of gospel-sanctification is not consistent with correct interpretation of scripture.

    He is not the only one in his reformed group (products of Knox and Westminster) that either fail to warn about Warren or openly promote him. Comparing Ingrid’s warning about Horton and Rosebrough’s outlandish smear tactics is like night and day.

    And no, I don’t think Ingrid owes Horton an apology.

  288. Since when are photographs indicators of a person’s theology?

    I had better delete a lot of FB photos of me with C3 folks (family members), WOF folks (family members) and gay men (family members) for that matter.

    Chris Rosebrough “When someone’s “discernment” leads to the conclusion that the church must be warned against Rick Warren, Brian McLaren, Leonard Sweet AND Michael Horton, then something is seriously wrong with that person’s “discernment” and it must be called out and that person’s methods and conclusions challenged”.

    Do I agree with the “broadside/cannon” email? NO! Unfortunately what is said in an email didn’t need to take the programme’s “pirate theme”. If Ingrid wants to run with the role of discernment ministry blogger, she has to take it on the chin, so to speak, if she oversteps the line, being a woman shouldn’t exclude her from “broadsides” – she has taken her ball and gone “home’ because she was seriously addressed over this unfortunate conclusion about Dr Horton.

    I have listened to both Ingrid and Chris for years and as much as I love Ingrid’s ministry to women via her other blogs, her constant “broadsides” 😦 at various groups, though warranted (and unwarranted slurs on Dr Michael Horton is way out of line and out of her league quite frankly). Sadly Ingrid borders more on legalism than grace, something that has made me withdraw more and more from listening to Crosstalk.

    All that said, I will continue to enjoy what she does best and that is to minister to women, an arena that she does with far more “grace” than elsewhere.

    What’s the alternative?

    It has been said that some of Horton’s critics will not be satisfied with anything short of Horton expressing a sort of second-degree separation.

    Looks like I may just have to practice that myself!
    C3, WOF, gays!!

  289. Chris Rosebrough in response to a FB comment on assumptions – “When Dr. Horton had that photo published there was also a clear explanation of the photo that was published along with it that showed that Dr. Horton took Rick Warren’s false ideas and methodologies to task WHILE he was at Saddleback and WHILE he met with Rick Warren. Horton also made the audio available of his comments at Saddleback and they confirm that while he was there he CLEARLY critiqued Warren’s false ideas.

    So, when the photo was originally published IN CONTEXT there was NO CONFUSION about the fact that Horton wasn’t being buddy buddy with Warren.

    But then Ingrid, ripped the photo out of context, and omitted all of the details about what Horton actually said and did at Saddleback. And SHE (NOT HORTON) created the false impression that Horton and Warren were buddies.”

  290. @ex-pirate listener

    “Horton’s own teaching of gospel-sanctification is not consistent with correct interpretation of scripture.”

    What do you mean exactly?

  291. It is not logical to compare Michael Horton’s relationship with Rick Warren to your relationship with family members who have been taken captive by false doctrine or practice homosexuality. These men are highly esteemed teachers (James 3).

    Horton is pushing “gospel-sanctification”, a form of hyper-calvinism. It’s proponents do not have a proper interpretation of scripture.

    The teaching of a limited atonement has its roots in Augustine and was influenced by Manichaeism. Sadly many who depart from the more abusive pentacostal groups are being led to the teachings Augustine and Calvin instead of the teachings of Christ and the New Testement apostles.

  292. Interesting – I call it sovereign grace (and I’m getting that same sense of legalism from you!)

    Obviously any disclaimer personally given by Dr Horton is of no account because of a photo?

    By the way, have you read “Christless Christianity”?

    “What is called for in these days, as in any other time, is a church that is a genuine covenantal community defined by the gospel rather than a service provider defined by laws of the market, political ideologies, ethnic distinctives, or other alternatives to the catholic community that the Father is creating by his Spirit in his Son. For this, we need nothing less than a new Christian where the only demographic that matters is in Christ.” Michael Horton

  293. ‘a new Christian where the only demographic that matters is in Christ’

    Not just Christ. Christ and his gospel to the lost, don’t you mean? Jesus isn’t a demographic. He is the Changer of failed demographies. He brings a new demographic, that of the kingdom.

    How do you separate Christ and his gospel from the marketplace? It’s where he did all his ministry to the lost. It’s where the lost are. Are you suggesting a monastic lifestyle?

    Jesus said, “Go in all the world and make disciples of all ethnic groups’, which means going to the sinners where they are to bring the kingdom. Hence market-place evangelism.

  294. @ELD- Nope. I was raised in a baptist church. They went purpose-driven when I was in college and began employing much of Bill Hybels methodology. Now they are ecumenical and have the contemplative movement creeping in through their small groups.

    In college I was influenced by IHOP and Mike Bickle. Many of my friends are still caught up with YWAM and IHOP. I was introduced to Calvinism through John Piper and for years I thought I was one of “the elect”, and if someone would not respond to the gospel message they must not be one of the “chosen” ones.

    The teachings of Andy Stanley, John Ortberg, and Dallas Willard have taken a foothold in the non-denominational church that I had most recently attended, and the pastors and elders have been deceived. They are promoting contemplative prayer and a subjective reading of the Bible. I continue to pray that the pastors and elders may understand the truth though my correspondence with them.

    I have been looking for a church to attend, and studying the history of the denominations. Much of the Lutheran tradition is also problematic. I am a Christian plain and simple. I have found some of Ted Pike’s Bible studies to be helpful so far.

  295. Yes, makes sense, your introduction to Calvinism seems to not have gone beyond that, you dont know what you are on about….whilst you have effectively demonstrated that a warped understanding of election can be used as a shallow caricature thats exaggerates and distorts the essence of Calvinist doctrine would you mind answering the following:

    1. Tell us what a hypercalvinist is (you can use Google or Wikipedia if you want, I dont care – the exercise is for your benefit because anyone that calls Michael Horton a “hypecalvinist” has their head comfortably domiciling in their rectum);

    2. John Piper’s “Christian Hedonism” is based on the first enquiry of the Westminster Shorter Catechism “What is the chief end of man? – Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.” – if you actually check how the same is referenced and derived from scripture you are going to have a bugger of a time refuting that thesis my friend – if you have decieved yourself into beliving that you have – prima facie you are very ignorant or you are just unconverted;

    3. Why are you taking Ingrid Schleuters part – from the idiocy you have communicated on this thread alone she would firmly reject what you have said (being reformed herself) and would probably put you on her “to be warned about list” a thousand times quicker than Chris Rosebrough would have in any event!!

    4. “The teaching of a limited atonement has its roots in Augustine and was influenced by Manichaeism.” by all means please demonstrate! – I have a much waiting for your “insights” by way of reply!…

  296. @EMD-
    Your words:
    “you are very ignorant”
    “has their head comfortably domiciling in their rectum);”
    “the idiocy you have communicated”

    Where is the love? gentleness? kindness? self-control?

    It sounds like you would have been one of the first people to sign on board with the pope of Geneva and participate in his reign of terror.

    I never “took Ingrid’s part”. I do not agree with her support of reformed theology. I was simply pointing out the antics of Rosebrough.

    There is an abundance of history books documenting Augustine, his ‘conversion’ from Manichaeism, and his writings on the atonement (you can use google or wikipedia if you want). The exercise can be to your benefit.

    The Westminster Confession is NOT the Bible.

    God Bless.

  297. With such a challenging reply so lacking in particulars, God Bless you too and dont let the door hit you on the arse on the way out!

    Its easy to throw it all there – substantiating your opinions is quite a different endeavour isnt it! 🙂

  298. I’d like to say that ELD means no harm by his bad manners, x-pr, but I don’t think that would be true.

    In fact, he comes across as nothing more than a guard dog for the Reformed compound.

    Being a pit-bull, love, kindness, gentleness and self-control are not bred into him, but it makes you wonder what spirit he is of.

    ‘Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh…’

    Keep seeking truth.

  299. as per usual “pastor” your very amateur exegesis is worth almost as much as the bit that gets cut away in circumcision…

  300. Not really. Your legalism is the ‘dynamic equivalent’ of the mutilation, just another form. The passage was appropriate to your style. Cut out, cut down, or cut asunder all ideas but your own. Divisive, and sectarian.

  301. If any believe Dr Horton is a “brisdger” where Rick warren is concerned, must be living in a twilight zone…..

    “Speaking first for myself, I admire Rick Warren’s zeal for reaching non-Christians and concern for global challenges. I respect him for giving away much of his income for charitable purposes.

    At the same time, I believe that his message distorts the gospel and that he is contributing to the human-centered pragmatism that is eroding the proper ministry and mission of the church. Judging by The Purpose-Driven Life, Pastor Warren’s theology seems to reflect run-of-the-mill evangelical Arminianism, especially with its emphasis on the new birth as the result of human decision and cooperation with grace. There are also heavy traces of Keswick “higher life” teaching throughout the book. None of this disqualifies him from being an evangelical statesman. After all, much the same can be said of Billy Graham. After pointing out how difficult it is to define an evangelical theologically, historian George Marsden famously surmised that it’s “anyone who likes Billy Graham.” Today, perhaps, it’s anyone who likes Rick Warren.

    Obviously, Rick Warren believes that he is simply translating the gospel in terms that the unchurched can understand. However, the radical condition of sin is reduced to negative attitudes and behaviors and the radical redemption secured by Christ’s propitiatory death and resurrection are reduced to general and vague statements about God giving us another chance. His central message seems to be that you were created for a purpose and you just need to fulfill it. Even at Easter he can say, “…And of course, that purpose now becomes greater — and in fact, I think that’s really what the message this week of Easter is, is that God can bring good out of bad. That he turns crucifixions into resurrections. That he takes the mess of our life, and when we give him all the pieces, he can — God can put it together in a new way” (”Larry King Live,” CNN, March 22, 2005). I heard him say on a network morning program last Christmas that Jesus came to give us a mulligan, like in golf—a chance for a “do-over” in life.

    While I applaud his concern for social justice, I am concerned that he confuses the law with the gospel and the work of Christians in their vocations (obeying the Great Commandment) with the work of Christ through his church in its ministry of Word and sacrament (the Great Commission).

    His best-selling book, The Purpose-Driven Life, begins by announcing that it’s not about you, but about God, and then the rest of the book is about you. There seems to be a contradiction between the God-centered theology that is professed and the basically human-centered orientation that dominates much of his message and methods. Some time ago, my wife discovered a letter that Rick Warren wrote to me way back in 1998, in which Pastor Warren mentioned the impact of my first book, Mission Accomplished, and his intention to write a book that highlighted the point that God made us for his purposes, rather than the other way around. Since then, we have corresponded periodically, but that has not kept either of us from offering occasional critiques of each other’s views. In fact, we will be together for a panel discussion at Saddleback in June, sponsored by the Lausanne Committee for World Evangelization.

    Pastor Warren tailors his appeals to his audience. To Calvinists, he stresses his support for the “solas” of the Reformation. Yet he tells prosperity evangelist David Yonggi Cho, “I’ve read your books on Vision and Dreams – speak to pastors about how you hear the voice of the Holy Spirit?…What advice would you give to a brand new minister?…Do you think American churches should be more open to the prayer for miracles?” (“Breakfast With David Yonggi Cho And Rick Warren,” Pastors.com). In a June 2006 article in JewishJournal.com, editor-in-chief Rob Eshman reported on a speech that Warren gave for Synagogue 3000, after Rabbi Ron Wolfson became involved in the Purpose-Driven pastoral training seminars. “Warren managed to speak for the entire evening without once mentioning Jesus — a testament to his savvy message-tailoring.” When USA Today asked him why Mormon and Jewish leaders are involved in his pastoral training programs, Rick Warren reportedly said, “I’m not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won’t try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?” (USA Today, July 21, 2003). Rick Warren endorses a host of books, from New Age authors to Emergent writers to conservative evangelicals. So why not include Calvinists?

    The first Reformation was about God and the gospel of his Son. It centered on the justification of sinners by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Robert Schuller wrote Self-Esteem: The New Reformation in the 1990s. And in 2005 Rick Warren announced at the Baptist World Alliance meeting a new Reformation based on “deeds, not creeds.” As he explained in an interview,

    I’m looking for a second reformation. The first reformation of the church 500 years ago was about beliefs. This one is going to be about behavior. The first one was about creeds. This one is going to be about deeds. It is not going to be about what does the church believe, but about what is the church doing (beliefnet.com/faiths/Christianity/2005/10/Rick-Warrens-Second-Reformation.aspx?p=1).

    He has also said he is working toward a Third Great Awakening, which seems like the better comparison, since the basic message is more in step with Charles Finney and the Second Great Awakening than it is with the Reformation.

    I agree wholeheartedly when Pastor Warren argues that Christians can work with non-Christians—even agnostics and atheists—on the global challenges of poverty, racism, corrupt leadership, injustice, and disease. However, this is precisely why his confusion of the Christian’s calling to love of neighbor with the gospel is so dangerous. Working toward the common good is the calling of every person, believer and unbeliever alike, but it is not the Great Commission. It is the law of love that obliges us all, but it is not the gospel.

    Long ago, the evangelist D. L. Moody responded to criticisms of his message and pragmatic methods with the quip, “I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it.” We can be so proud of getting the gospel right while we don’t bother to get the gospel out to those who need it. Furthermore, we can be self-confident in our theological integrity while ignoring the Word of God when it impinges on questions of social concern. Yet the answer is not “deeds over creeds,” but to be re-introduced to the creeds that generate the deeds that are the fruit of genuine faith. Getting the gospel right and getting the gospel out, as well as loving and serving our neighbors, comprise the callings of the church and of Christians in the world. However, confusing these is always disastrous for our message and mission.”

    – Dr Michael Horton

  302. Are there cliff notes for Ian William’s letters to this blog?

    I had a housemate much like him but with shorter sentences. He did believe in going “straight to the source” of his spiritual experiences rather than the Bible. Funny enough, he goes to Hillsong and even ruffled his connect group’s leader.

  303. Hello from a very shaky city – Christchurch. My appreciation of Christ has matured somewhat, particularly of late, but also too my reluctance to entertain anything which savors of man. The Church, or more correctly, Circe, has become much more thoroughly leavened – especially by the Lubavitcher movement and its attendant Hebrews Roots movement. We must remember that the Promise was to the SEED, as of ONE, which is CHRIST. That is why Jesus so offended the Jews when He said, “You say that you have Abraham to your father, but I say that you are of your father the devil, and he was a liar from the beginning, and that God can raise children to Abraham from these stones”.

    I greatly appreciate the scriptures as being given by God – but I know that twice i was challenged by the Holy Spirit as to who my Rabbi really is. I actually believe that anyone else who calls himself a Levite or a Rabbi is an imposter, as there is only ONE RABBONI!

    And in case you forget, Jesus was the last Levite.

    This is the time of the drawing out and revealing of Leviathan as foretold by Isaiah in chapters 26 and 27.

    We are coming into an unprecedented time of history.

    LEVIATHAN – is a contraction of two words:
    the Hebrew LEVI – to join, to twist, to lend.
    The Arabic ATHAN – the call to prayer or salvation itself.

    It is the RELIGIOUS SPIRIT – the SERPENT OF OLD. It is that thing which coils in the belly and which every believer must be cut free from by the circumcising of their hearts. It is the father of lies.

    The VIVAL which is coming will not be about “Church” per se, but about a highways and byways thing, compelling the hungry to come in, gathering the scattered sheep when the shepherds are struck – they who side with the antichrist spirit for gain.

    Find out where your church leadership stand on the Hebrews Roots movement and the Lubavitcher and Noahide Laws issue. If they support Militant Zionism and or the Noahide laws, then you are dealing with someone who is at best deceived and at worst a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    Beware of the dogs of the circumcision. If you do not understand what the Noahide Laws are about, then you seriously need to.

    Like, chop chop! OK?

  304. What with advert spam, multi-personality trolls and random comments, Signposts seems to be attracting some weird activity of late.

  305. Back to Joseph Prince.

    God’s Best-Kept Secret On Tithing – Can You Take It?

    Based on Luke 15 and the three parables of the Good Shepherd, the lost coin and the prodigal son.

    Apparenty these verses are about money.

  306. EC,
    ‘I had a housemate much like him but with shorter sentences.’

    That was a bonus for you – the shorter sentences, I mean.

    There’s one in every pack. It’s amazing to me how easily the simplicity of the gospel is missed by those who seek deeper meanings or alternative explanations.

  307. Steve, I know. Joseph Prince still pulls a good crowd though so some people are after that hidden deeper meaning.

  308. I was referring to someone else, Bones, as you well know, but if you have to discuss Joseph let it be for something real, and give the context.

    He’s an exceptional communicator with a large work built through hard work and years of prayer, but he hasn’t done it alone. He has an excellent leadership team, a strong work ethic and disciplined lifestyle which he articulates and which helps others grow in Christ.

    Singaporeans are very organised and dedicated people, hence the extraordinary church growth statistics there.

    If we were half as diligent as these wonderfully friendly and open people we’d have world wide revival in the same way they are experiencing it in their city.

    Singapore is also one of the safest and most prosperous cities on earth, and extremely generous. Lots to learn from them.

    Rather than be critical of such moves of God, why not try a positive analysis and see if you can locate what it is that we westerners could apply to develop such strong fellowship and devotion to Christ?

  309. Which article illustrates to this correspondent that your view of them appears skewed, specious and inaccurate. Having been there, done that and having the T shirt myself, I would say the Kenneth Hagin etc were much more mistaken than they were ever Machiavellian. They are the blind led by the blind. It is more then influence of the satanic Sanhedrin and their Masonic Muppets, which is the issue, and how it has leavened the Circe (read Gary Amirault’s seminal “Circe, Daughter of the Sun”).

    The reason why the coming reVIVAL is going to be in the streets and outside of churches is that in essence, the church is not the answer, it is the problem, and has been so since it was incorporated by Constantine. The Body of Christ, however, is the Temple of God, which Temple is you and is forever in the heavens and not made with hands. It is not an earthly organization, nor is HIS kingdom of this world. What God feels about steeples and churches should be apparent by the fact that in our recent spate of EQ’s, the single biggest cohort of buildings which suffered damage has been churches, including the Lubavitcher stul and the Anglican and Catholic cathedrals.

    When the destruction of Christchurch is complete and Canterbury has been wracked and ruined, a NEW THING will begin here which will take hold like a wildfire and sweep the earth, proclaiming he Power of God and the Hope of the Kingdom which is the REAL good news. I can tell by your discourse that none of you really know what is going on, but suffice to say, that the Days of the Son of Man are soon to come upon us as the Church Age closes out with the institution of a world religion, financial system and government – all controlled by the Sanhedrin. Get the guillotines ready Boris, there are queues of the hallowed ready to be martyred – are you prepared to die for your faith, or will you bow the knee to Baal and accept the Noahide Law? If you fell for the 10 commandments, the myths of the Jews and doctrines of devils, then you will not understand where I am coming from.

    By the way, I saw a vision of a huge Tsunami to hit Singapore and Darwin. I believe that it will be as a result of a massive EQ in the Banda Sea region, and mid May is looking like it may be it. NZ will continue to be wracked by EQ’s and the Taupo Super Volcano will erupt. Melbourne is to have three quakes in one day, one will be very destructive. Faults under Sydney which have been dormant for 100 million years will fracture with devastating consequences and Tsunamis will hit from Hobart to Queensland. Wherever alcohol is KING, destruction shall reign.

    The destruction of Christchurch has been delayed but will be complete by later this year. Wellington, the mouth pf Leviathan, will be utterly destroyed by an apocalyptic earthquake and it will be as a gazing stock to the nations.

    Mayans and Mystics aside, it is going to get very messy – a lot of people are going to die and we as a nation will have to learn to deal with loss on a scale unimaginable – but here is what the Word told me, that “Loss is not lack, it is gain”. If you understand that, you will understand where I am coming from, otherwise you will just think me crazy, but that is OK, they said Jesus had a demon and crucified Him for telling the truth.

    Here is a clue for you all,, the Babylon builders just love their (per)version of the Bible – the King James Version – and stick to it RELIGIOUSLY! And remember, Jesus did NOT tell us to build towers, He told us to COUNT THE COST OF OUR TOWER BUILDING! And all the towers are coming down and great woe is coming to the world, great sorrow, and it shall be for the people who ought to have been blessed but who have been oppressed, plundered and murdered by the millions by rapacious greedy predominantly White Anglo Saxon people.

    God showed me the bowls of wrath, that they are full to overflowing and will soon be poured out – what we are seeing now is just the overflow.

    Our comfort and luxury and Babylonian indulgence has been at their expense – time to give it all back and follow Jesus and have the everlasting LIFE.

    Blessings! 0(:->)

  310. So, the simplicity of the gospel? The simplicity of the gospel is that HE IS THE POWER OF GOD. Are the words the gospel or is The Living Word, the “Milta” (Google it) or essence of God the Power of God?

    The difference is between having the recipe or having a living reality – a hungry man does not need a recipe, he needs a cake – have you got the goods? Is there power in your prayers? Do you pray nation changing prayers? Do you heal the sick, raise the dead, feed the hungry and help the widow?

    Prayer is NOT the communication WITH God, it is the communication OF God,and he does nothing except that he first tells His prophets.

    It is simple if you have the Mind of Christ, otherwise your gospel will be the gospel of the religious simpleton. When they say, “Peace and safety”, then shall sudden destruction come, as a thief. This is it folks, in case you have been asleep at the wheel. It is close out time for the Church as the Bride comes down out of heaven, adorned. But hey, why listen to me, i am crazy, yes? LOL.

  311. Steve, the highly laudable terms in which you describe the Singaporeans is fine and basically true. A sound work ethic is a trait common to much of SE Asia. However, that doesn’t mean they are building with spiritual zeal necessarily. There may be good works aplenty co-ordinated by a dedicated ‘leadership’ team and magnetic leader, but if erroneous teachings and mishandled scripture are at the root, how healthy is the tree, really? I’m just observing that if all you see in SG is of God, then it appears he is happy to overlook unbiblical building principles. Don’t be deceived by quantity over quality.

    BTW I attended a service at their church a few months ago when in SG with work. It was in a vast conference/expo floor in a mall and thousands streamed in to watch the ‘mother church’ do their thing via TV, and then JP’s message was on tape to main church! The entire activity left you feeling very unconnected to your fellow believer and it was a case of file in, stand, sing, listen, stand, sing, leave ie ‘standard’ church but on a huge scale.

  312. Ian Williams, thanks for your input and geophysical predictions. I believe there are many more societal, governmental and financial earthquakes to come before the tectonic plates start buckling. And why is God so upset about alcohol now that this is the trigger for all the mayhem you describe? Alcohol has been around long enough to warrant a heavenly response if necessary! Greed, pride, false religion and selfishness are far bigger human faults from reading scripture.

    Only total submission to a Spirit-led life following Jesus will suffice
    in the days ahead, as I think you intimate, but mistimed earthquake predictions have outed many a false prophet. Let’s just stick to making Jesus king in our lives, and leave the specifics to God.

  313. Prayer is deeper than communication, Ian. It is communion. It is participation in the divine nature.

    How do you make a cake without a recipe? Are the ingredients merely thrown together in hope? Never.

    Seed for the sower, bread for the eater, God supplies it all. Jesus, the Bread of life, is also the Seed. The Sower casts the Seed, His Word, on good soil and the soil produces, some forty, some sixty, some an hundred fold. If the soil is ill-prepared the seed fails to reach full fruition. The soil must be right. We have to prepare ourselves for the Word.

    The Word is the recipe – a series of applicable precepts we receive and add to our lives as divinely inspired ingredients for every situation. The Word is living and active and powerful. But, as with bread, the parts must be applied in the right order and with the correct timing and weight, blended with the Water, the Spirit, and heated at the precise temperature.

    Faith is not a hit and miss affair. It is a well designed, accurately patterned, perfectly orchestrated series of applicable parts.

    Hope isn’t an empty wish, like saying ‘I hope it doesn’t rain’ whilst thinking it might. It is the fervent expectation of good based on God’s Word and Promises, which He cannot break. Hope is something seen ahead which is brought to life by faith in God’s ability to bring it to pass. As with Abraham, ‘being fully persuaded’ that what God said he would he was perfectly able to accomplish. “My Word ill not return to me void”.

    Bread Recipe
    Mix flour, salt and yeast in a large bowl. Make a well in the centre, then add the oil and water, and mix well. If the dough seems a little stiff, add 1-2 tbsp water, mix well then tip onto a lightly floured work surface and knead. Once the dough is satin-smooth, place it in a lightly oiled bowl. Leave to rise for 1 hour until doubled in size or place in the fridge overnight.

    Line a baking tray with baking parchment. Knock back the dough, then gently mould the dough into a ball. Place it on the baking parchment to prove for a further hour until doubled in size.

    Heat oven to 220C/fan 200C/gas 7. Dust the loaf with flour and cut a cross about 6cm long into the top of the loaf with a sharp knife. Bake for 25-30 mins until golden brown and the loaf sounds hollow when tapped underneath. Cool on a wire rack.

    Everything is present in the mix, but if you don’t put it together properly there will be no bread.
    ____________________________

    By the way, Darwin is situated just off the Arafura Sea, which is an oceanic trough so deep that even the strongest seismic shifts have only a small effect on the city. There are very regular seismic events above 6 or 7 on the Richter Scale in the depths of the Arafura Sea which result in mild tremors in Darwin because the Arafura Sea is too deep to send out a major tremor, or a Tsunami. The most that could be expected would be a tidal surge, depending on the height of the tide at the time, since Darwin has up to five metre tidal rises and falls.

    Just thought you should know.

  314. Haven’t I already pointed out that Kenneth Hagin and Oral Roberts were not Evangelicals?

    I must have been dreaming …

    I am sure I made the smart point that Evangelicals have thrown away their bibles and Pentecostals have picked them up?

    Oh but Pente’s have kept the Holy Spirit and Evangelicals just want pep-talk sermons.

    That’s an over-simplification from this old-school evangelical. But you get the picture. Confront the Truth if you want to but get your facts straight please.

    Did Kenneth Hagin and Oral Roberts promote some dodgy teachings? Well we can argue about that … I happen to think so. Others will disagree maybe. No need to argue about that though.

    Were they evangelicals? Certainly not!
    Were they pentecostals? Yes they were. They belonged to that stream.

    Do I have to say this again?

  315. Ian … are you saying that New Zealand is the centre of satanic power or the focus of satanic attack?

    You see … I thought that the focus was Israel myself. You know … anti-christ desecrating the thrid temple. Slaughtering pigs on the alter and declaring himself to be God and then Jesus comes back … you know the picture right?

    Yeah?

    You’ve not been listening to angel of light now have you?

    David Icke in the UK claimed many years ago that he was the Second Coming of Jesus and there would be lots of Natural Disasters … now he just sells books and goes on speaking tours claiming that the world is being run by Lizards.

    Me, I have just come to the realisation that the world is actually run by incompetent people with delusions of adequacy.

    These same people have their fingers on Nuclear Buttons! Anyone feel safe now?

    Obama was everyones’ hero … now we realise he knows nothing about international or national finance or economics. The people he has advising him know even less than he does!

    Terrific.

    Ah well … at least there is coffee.

    Shalom

  316. Ian W sounds like a great movie theme – destruction, catastrophe, Steve swimming in his undies, Satanic Jews – bad guys, good guy – Ian W, mass killings, leviathan (sea monsters). Why because of Kenneth Hagin, alcohol, Kenneth Hagin, Jews, Kenneth Hagin …(more bad guys).

    Can we add some zombies to spruce it up? Maybe that’s when the dead are raised. How about some transformers in there as well.

    I can see it now 2012 – the Sequel.

    I’m excited. It’d make a great B Movie.

  317. Salam to all followers of Isa and hope you had a good Ismas.

    A thousand thanks to mr Steve for the recipe for bread – I will try over the next few days.

    Ian – you sound like crazy man! But maybe have point about the Jews and Alcohol.

    As-Salamu Alaykum

  318. ” i am crazy, yes? ”

    Yeah, I’d say so.

    Is this the same Ian that said that there would be a huge earthquake at the Rugby World Cup?

    “and mid May is looking like it may be it.”

    Looking like it? YOu don’t know? So it…could be mid June?
    Are these all just hunches?thoughts? voices from angels that are muffled so that “mid May” might have been “nixt Friday” (spoken like a Kiwi).

    I don’t get this at all. So if there are no tidal waves this year, do you just say that it looks like 2013?

  319. Just start surfing, SM or move inland. Coober Pedy might end up with a beach front. Tsunamis are going to hit the entire Eastern seaboard apparently. At least alcohol free towns like Alice Springs and Mount Isa (ha!) won’t be swept away.

  320. Is this the same Ian that said that there would be a huge earthquake at the Rugby World Cup?

    leaping lizards Batman! Great catch! I’d forgotton about the prophesy that the Rugby World Cup final was going to be hit by a massive Earth-Quake that would shake the world as it watched or some thing like that …

    You know, it says not to entertain false-prophets. Doesn’t it?

    I’ll probably be identified as a Lizard now. 😦

    Coffee time!

  321. Ah, the Bull of Bashin’. You will also remember that I foretold the Feb Eq and the Aussies coming over to help us – my son spoke to an Aussie cop who said she had dreamed of walking in rubble the night before the quake. Just because you do not have prophetic insights does not mean we are all blind.

    The saints here have mostly concluded that through concerted prayer, this city has been spared – for now – but so many have had dreams and visions of the destruction of ChCh – which will be a metaphor for the destruction of Circe, aka Babylon.

    And there was a quake during the quarter final – 5.5. A lot of prayer has gone into this thing – a lot of saints praying to prevent the disasters which have been foretold – but just as Nineveh repented but was eventually destroyed….

    If you knew who was coming (and is at the door) you would know what is coming. Laugh all you like – if you are not schooled up on the influence of the Sanhedrin and the Talmudists then when the time comes to defend your faith it will likely be too late, but then you might be on board with all this Zionist piffle? To them you are all just Catholics anyway. As for the “natural” disasters, I guess you guys must be historicist or some such nonsense – you know, “They have been saying this for 2000 years and He ain’t back yet!”

    Let’s see who is still laughing later this year, shall we? At least I have the stones to put my word on the line, instead of just hiding behind a wall of Bull. Like I said, I have been shown the bowls of wrath and what is restraining until the time – perhaps a little slop in your direction might get your attention? It does not much matter in the end, this is going to affect the whole world, or have you got one of those magic bibles where Revelation has already happened so you don’t count?

    If you knew who is coming, then you would know what is coming – I pray that you all have a personal revelation of your future and yes, it is a lot more important to know who your future is than what it is, and to have the Mind of Christ, but if you are thinking “Peace and safety”, think again – for you never know when the Lord shall come as a thief to catch away His bride – don’t be caught out playing church and buying your oil from others…..

    If your eye be single, then shall your whole being be flooded with light – your lamp will be filled – for the lamp of the Body is the eye.

    0(:->)

  322. Oh yeah the old “we changed God’s mind through prayer” excuse. Reminds me of a guy who had visions and would spend hours talking to me of spiritual implications of Y2K and how Jesus was coming. It sounded to me of stuff out of the Twilight Zone. He was so convinced and of course he believed everyone else would come under judgment for not believing his truth.

    Needless to say nothing happened, he no longer attends any church nor does he speak of God anymore.

  323. Similarly Bones, I knew a chap who was convinced God had shown him the date of Jesus’s return on a particular car number plate. When (unsurprisingly) nothing happened it almost shipwrecked his faith.

    Ian, all here would not be in that section of humanity that calls down the rocks to hide them on that great and awful day. We will be arising to meet him in the air. Our hope is not based on physical turmoil, of which there has been much and various down the centuries. I, too, can discern the season, but Hollywood disaster predictions are not that vital to stir me up. I recall 700 Club Pat Whatsit uttering similar prophecies which came to nought in Jan 2011.

  324. Ian,
    ‘At least I have the stones to put my word on the line, instead of just hiding behind a wall of Bull.’

    No, in fact you’re disclosed as a false prophet, or, really, no prophet at all.

    It’s not ‘stones’ to declare error, it’s bull-dust.

    I notice you don’t have the stones to repent or admit you got t wrong, which would have gained you some credit. Rather, you try to do what many before have done and sidestep your mistake by saying something else will happen, much like Ellen G White. At least Millar repented and skulked off into anonymity. She perpetuated the error and turned it into a cult.

    Now you compare believers with unbelievers, as if we are denying Christ, or Peter’s admonition that God is not slack. We know he is longsuffering. That’s why he hasn’t come with judgement and wrath yet. You completely misrepresent scripture with your excuse for failure and attempted accusation.

    And that is all you are, in reality – an accuser. An accuser of the brethren, and we know who the author of that strategy is.

    How on earth is Christchurch in any way comparable to Babylon? Please don’t answer that. It was rhetorical.

    You’re merely taking liberties with scripture and trying to present fear as a replacement for faith in your world.

    It’s you who needs to repent.

    Then I’d accept you have stones.

  325. Ian, I still need Cliff-notes for everything you write.

    eg You rant about Circe but I would need to go to the glossary section of the Cliff-notes to know what you’re talking about.

    Then, there are those one-page single paragraph essays that you write that need to be structured better.

  326. Circe, Daughter of The Sun. Now this will make Bull howl.

    As our Father allows me to look into His wisdom, I marvel at His ways, which are so far above me that only His Holy Spirit can reveal them in ways I can bear. He raises me up on wings that I might be able to grasp a larger understanding. In the natural, sometimes a high place allows one to see what one could not see in the valley. The high places that our Father brings one to allows one to see the flow of time and peoples as one continuous big picture. All of a sudden the end, the beginning, and the flow in between becomes one wonderful thought, a gem with it’s many facets seen together with the light of understanding shining brilliantly . . . dazzling my spiritual senses. Oh, what childlike joy when we are allowed to enter into the treasure house of the wisdom of our Father.

    One of these wonderful gems is the story of natural Israel and her daughters, Sodom, Samaria, etc.. Theologians have spent much time covering up the wonderful truths contained in the Old Testament. Some denominations have completely severed the Old Testament from Christian foundational teachings. Others have not been so bold, but when one looks at the yellow marked pages of the Bibles of their church membership, it is obvious that the three quarters of the Bible called, “Old,” has taken a very distant second place. And so we must repeat the errors of those who have gone before, ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. Our Father wrote a wonderful story upon the backs of a people called Israel. Had we been taught the true story of Israel, and had church history not been so whitewashed by church leaders, the knowledge I am about to share would have been seen ages ago. But the shepherds of our Father’s sheep have always been about the business of fleecing, robbing, and killing. We have been in darkness, but everything done in darkness will one day come to the light. Let there be light.

    What I am about to share, is not the story of Israel, the shadow, but the very substance of whom Israel is the shadow of. This is a true story of a woman called “Church.” She calls herself the “bride of Christ.” Beneath this main title come many others names of honor such as Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Protestant, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Charismatic, Pentecostal, Mormon, Reformed, Brethren, Quaker, Kingdom, Sonship, the Little Flock, etc., etc.. Over the last two thousand years, this woman called “Church” has taken on many thousands of different names. There is much in a name, especially when one sees that the affairs of the peoples of this world are governed by an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent Creator who lets nothing slip through His fingers. Let us look at a name. . .a name the world is ever so familiar with. She is a woman who has attempted to conquer the world by whatever means she could find at her disposal, and she did it all to the glory of her God. Let us look at the name of this woman called “Church.”

    For those of you who know me, or have listened to some of my tapes, you know I have spent hundreds of hours combing through many books written two to three hundred years ago. It seems our Father loosed much knowledge at that time. Much of this knowledge was in “ore” stage. It needed to be refined to be any good for civilization. This woman called “Church” took much of this knowledge and hid it away. She knew that this stuff was dangerous, dangerous for her, that is.

    One of the books that appeared in this era, was the beginning of a household institution called “Webster’s Dictionary.” It made it’s first appearance in 1828. Since then, it has gone through many editions, revisions, and forms. But there is something about that original Webster’s that makes it easy to go through a door to behold something that matches to the horror and amazement Ezekiel experienced when he dug his hole into the Temple wall, and perhaps equals the astonishment John must have felt when he beheld that “woman.” Under the heading of “church” in the original 1828 Webster’s Dictionary, we find the following:

    “Church, n. [Sax. Circe, circ or cyric; Scots, kirk, which retains the Saxon pronunciation; D. Kerk; G. Kirche; Se. Kyrchia; Dan. Kirke; Gr. Kuriokon, a temple of God, from kuriakos, pertaining to a Lord, or to our Lord Jesus Christ, from kurios, a Lord; Russ. Tzerkou.] .1 A house consecrated to the worship of God, among christians; the Lord’s house. This seems to be the original meaning of the word. The Greek ekklesia, from ekkalew, to call out or call together, denotes an assembly or collection. But kuriakos, kuriakon, are from kurios, Lord, a term applied by the early christians to Jesus Christ; and the house in which they worshipped was named from that title. So kuriaka signifies church goods, bona ecclesiastica; kuriakh, sc hmera, the Lord’s day, dies dominica. 2. The collective body of christians, or of those who profess to believe in Christ, and acknowledge him to be the Savior of mankind. In this sense, the church is sometimes the Catholic or Universal Church. Johnson Enclyce. 3. A particular number of christians, united under one form of ecclesiastical government, in one creed, and using the same ritual or ceremonies; as the English church; the Gallican church; the Presbyterian church; the Romish church; the Greek church.”

    The entry for “church” in this dictionary continues through 9 entries, but we have enough here to write a book. I am going to try to keep this in an article size, perhaps continuing into the next issue of “Dew.” For those of you who want more after reading this article, write for the tape entitled “The origin of the word ‘church’.

    Those of you who have been in “church” or have “gone to church” for any length of time have probably heard that the origin of the word “church” is from the Greek word ekklasia written in English ecclesia which would translate into English as called out, an assembly, or collection. This may be the definition of the word ecclesia, but the English word “church” does not come from this Greek word. Webster says the English word “church” comes from the Greek word kuriakon meaning “the Lord’s” or “the Lord’s house or belonging”. Sounds plausible, doesn’t it? This is what the seminary students are taught when they enter into the halls or walls of christendom as they study to become “heads of the churches.” To most of you, this explanation would probably suffice, but I am a nosy type, and I like to dig. Looking into Young’s Concordance, I discovered this word kuriakon is not in the Greek text of our Bibles. Strange that the Creator of the Universe would name his body on earth kuriakon and then not use the word in His Holy Word. Something did not smell right, know what I mean?

    I am in touch with many people who spend much time doing word studies, and play around with what has been called “etymology”, that is the study of word origins. I also read much material from different authors who have traced many of our “church” words to pagan mythology, especially Greek, Roman, Babylonian, and German or Teutonic mythology. Most of you are not aware of the fact that English is really a part of the German language. As a matter of fact, about 90% of the words in the King James Bible are German in origin. The English peoples are also called Anglo-Saxons. The Webster’s Dictionary says under Anglo-Saxon “A member of the nation created by the consolidation of Low German tribes that invaded England in the 5th and 6th centuries, together with native and Danish elements, which continued as the ruling power of England until the Norman Conquest.” Their language dominated England. Even the name England reflects this. I point this out so that you are aware of how German or Norse mythology has much to do with many of our English words.

    Now Webster says that the root of this word “church” is a Saxon word “circe, or circ, or cyric.” Those of you who are versed in Greek mythology or in the Greek language should begin to be raising your eyebrows. This information is so embarrassing that Webster did what he could to hide this in his first edition, but later editions made it easy to uncover. In the Original Webster’s under the word “circ” are the simple words “see circus.” Who says our Father doesn’t have a sense of humor? But it gets more interesting than that! The first entry as to the etymological meaning and origin of the church is “circe.” Now for those who are versed in Greek, this connection is so obvious and embarrassing that Webster did not put this noun in his dictionary, but he did put the adjective which is “Circean” I cannot prove it, but I think this omission was intentional. Under “Circean” we find the following definition: “adjective; Pertaining to Circe, the fabled daughter of Sol and Perseis, who was supposed to possess great knowledge of magic and venomous herbs, by which she was able to charm and fascinate.” Later editions of Webster’s finally had the courage to enter the noun under which we find more information: “Circe noun [L., fr. Gr. Kirke.] In the Odyssey, an island sorceress who turned her victims by magic into beasts but was thwarted by Odysseus with the herb moly given him by Hermes-Circean, circaean adj..”

    A couple of years ago Dr. Ernest Martin sent me a photocopy of an old book written in England with a cover page that went as follows: “The MYTH OF KIRKE: Including the visit of Odysseus to the Shades. An Homerik Study by Robert Brown, Jun., F.S.A..” It had a quote from the famous Milton on the title page that read, “Who knows not Circe, The daughter of the Sun?” It appears at the present time few people know her for who she really is. Dr. Martin opened my eyes and since then I have spent much time gathering the pieces to reveal Circe, Church, the daughter of the Sun, who mixes venomous herbs in “a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of the fornication of the earth.”

  327. So Church supposedly comes from Circe (not proven in the article nor how it came to apply which is more important than the etymological root of the word), the daughter of the Sun therefore all churches (apart from Ian’s if he has one) are of the whore of Babylon.

    In fact, churches (circes apparently) are deliberately hiding the truth from their members.

    Steve, are you there? What truth are you withholding from your church, buddy. Sorry your circe!

    I suppose that beats the typical Catholics/Pope whore, it’s everyone else except Ian.

    Next time I see a circle or a circus or something circular, I shall gouge my eyes out.

    Btw looked up mika of God and all I got were references to a Latin American cult. Though I am not surprised.

    Tell you what JWs would love that article.

  328. I am sure your studies, Ian, have dug up some useful nuggets of truth to act as warnings to those seeking an uncontaminated path on which to walk with God.

    We had a little back and forth on this in a recent discussion in which Viola and Barna’s ‘Pagan Christianity’ was given a good scoffing by a few folks. Personally, I think they (and you) have a pretty water-tight case demonstrating the leaven in the bread. Nearly every church denomination has foundered on the rocks of ignoring (or even appeasing) such leaven, yet they invariably blame it on attacks of the devil and assume they must be doing God’s will, and so plough on meaninglessly. Thank you for sharing something of your work.

  329. BTW, Ian, I didn’t think your paragraph spacing was that bad. Keep working on the structure and all will be good 😉

  330. Ian, let’s ‘suppose’ your theory about Circe being the origin of church is correct. I’m interested in how it went from that meaning of literature to meaning a group of believers (or whore of Babylon). Show how that could have happened. What, a group of bishops sat around saying “I know this lovely little ditty about a woman who charms, drugs and seduces leaders”. Let’s call ourselves that.

    I think it’s far more likely to come from circle myself. Whether the shape of the church (you could argue the pagan origins of that – my reply is meh, who cares).

  331. ““I know this lovely little ditty about a woman who charms, drugs and seduces leaders”. Let’s call ourselves that.”

    Very funny Bones!

  332. My wife wondered why I was laughing, but how would I explain it …I’d have to go through Ian’s incredibly bizarre post.

  333. “Church, the daughter of the Sun, who mixes venomous herbs in “a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of the fornication of the earth.”

    So that’s why you should stick Centre on the end of the name instead of Church.

  334. ”Whatever happened to the Illuminati anyway?”

    They’re plotting in Davos at the moment.

    Get a grip, Zman. That’s just a front. I know the Illumaniti. He’s in Memphis with Elvis who was kidnapped by Masonic Jewish Catholics and is planning on coming back as head of the One World Government.

    Don’t say you weren’t warned.

    If you don’t beilieve me, then you’re mocking God.

  335. So that’s why you should stick Centre on the end of the name instead of Church.

    Yes, Jesus would be happy with that.

    It’s obvious that whenever anyone uses the word church it means

    “my fellow pagans”
    “my pagan place of worshipping other gods”

    So we should just be honest about it.

    We don’t say what church do you go, should be “what is your favourite place to conduct your pagan rituals and sacrifices?”

    That’s what it means according to Ian.

    Now we are aware that Jesus wasn’t actually called Jesus?

    Is anyone worried about that?

  336. Just speculative semantics, really, with a vague grip on spiritual reality. Even if the ‘circe’ claims had substance, they are just speculation based on etymology. Supposition at best. What Paul called old wives tales.

    Now Hislop, there’s a person worth reading on these things, especially ‘The Two Babylons’, which every student of the Word should read at least once. In fact, you won’t get it all the first time, so a few reads will suffice.

    The ekklesia is the Biblical term.The called out ones. The hagion – saints, sanctified ones, in Christ – the Body of Christ. That is all that counts here, not tricky little diversions into debatable theories. That is also the downfall of Viola’s distraction.

    We all know what is meant by Church. Words change meanings and structure over time. The origins of words are interesting but don’t carry a mystical magic of diabolical origins which we need to fear, anymore than we need to fear meat offered to idols if we ourselves are sanctified through faith in Christ.

    In fact, our thanksgiving in Christ sanctifies all. All things are lawful, so we need to determine what is expedient for each situation we face through the leadership of the Spirit. Fear of religion is not something to concern us anymore. We are free. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty and the veil of religion and legalism is lifted.

    Walk in the Spirit, then, and you won’t fulfil the lusts of the flesh or carnal mind.

    Wive’s tales are a waste of time.

  337. Have any of you studied the link from Babylon to the present, Freemasonry, Cabala, Babylonian RabbinicTalmudism, the Noahide Laws…..?

    Do you realise how leavened what you call church is? Do you understand what it means to come out from among her? Have you wondered why in our spate of EQ’s, the most damaged buildings were churches? I asked God to destroy both steeple and stul (pagan Baal and Phallic worship) and it happened, so does that make me antichrist or anti church?

    Have you wondered why that though we speak the same language, we do not understand each other? How Babylonian is that?

    The word OCCULT means to be hidden in plain sight. The fact that so many eyes are closed to this is not my problem, it is yours.

    What if I were to tell you that in all probability, most of what you know is wrong? I know Jesus and i perform miracles – do you perform miracles?

    As for prophesying disaster, the Feb 22 EQ which I prophesied in this forum, changed the plans for the world cup. I also said that on October 16th, NZ would play OZ. On that day, an intercessor I know said that he birthed something HUGE in the Spirit. God does nothing without involving His prophets. The Big One is coming, as well as a smaller final warning.

    You need to go read what the prophets had to say about the mountains being shaken and the Islands being moved out of their place. My son, who had an open vision of the Feb 22 quake which happened exactly as he told me it would, recently dreamed of super quakes, which made the mountains shake, yet he felt no fear and that Jesus was right there with them while all,around were losing it.

    I will go on record as saying that before this is over, there will hardly be a house or heart left unbroken in Canterbury, and we will all have to come to terms with real loss – but loss is not lack, loss is gain.

    I asked God when the Big One would happen and i heard Oct 16th. Did it “happen” or was it birthed then? Things “happen” in the Spirit before they happen on earth, and I was guilty of wanting to know WHAT is coming more than being concerned with knowing WHO is coming. Was Jesus offered up on Calvary or from before the foundations of the worlds? Extreme case I know.

    The thing I had to repent of was pride and wanting to know times, but I am not at all diminished in my conviction that there is a whole season of war, poverty, disease and disaster – and an eternal weight of sorrow to come upon the whole world, especially NZ, which shall be reborn as Aotearoa,and become a beacon for hope and the blueprint for race relations among the nations.

    Wellington is the mouth of Leviathan and it utters great blasphemies and it shall be stopped.

    Like I said, the next ChCh quake will be the final warning for us. The huge mega thrust EQ’s and Tsunamis will cause the tall buildings to come down, all the towers to the heavens, all the proud phallic emblems of Man’s success will come down, all the towers to the heavens of spiritual pride – all coming down – literal and figurative.

    In 2001 during a prayer meeting, i was shown a huge Tsunami come through our city – both literal and figurative, sweeping way all thoes who oppose what God is doing yet the work He was doing remained undamaged and secure/complete/lacking nothing. The thing which shocked me at the time was seeing churches swept away but the remnant remained.

    I was sent last year to warn a Pastor last year of more EQ’s to come – he did not heed and his building was condemned. I went to the venue he was sharing with another church to warn him yet again, and while sitting there I had a vision of his people being flattened by the roof while he stood on the stage and watched it happen. He then recounted how another prophet who he accepted had told him of seeing him standing in front of the broken cathedral, alone.prior to the quake which destroyed it.

    When I had the vision, I looked up and saw that the ceiling was in two distinct portions, one looked threatening and capable of taking out those under it. I prayed that it might happen when no one was there but as he is not listening, I suspect that he will lose everything before he discovers that loss is not lack, and that though we might suffer loss, yet shall we be saved as by fire, and the fire shall reveal every man’s work of what kind it is, wood, straw or stubble, or gold silver and precious gems.

    And just for good measure, I work in gold, silver and precious gems. 0(:->)

  338. You seem to be more of a Caiaphas than a Gamaliel. Is JACK an acronym for Just Another Christ Killer? Are you the redoubtable Jumping Jack Flash? Come on guys – i will make a faith challenge – a covenant even – in that we shall all agree that whosoever needs to hear whatsoever shall do so and will be open to correction by God through His Holy Spirit and His Word, and that not without exception nor caveat – we invite the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to correct and to chasten and to guide and lead us into all Truth, in the name of Jesus Christ the risen Lord, we so agree. Aa-meen. Yes? I am not afraid, are you? It is a win/win, yes?

    Have a HAARPY day.

  339. Have any of you studied the link from Babylon to the present, Freemasonry, Cabala, Babylonian RabbinicTalmudism, the Noahide Laws…..?

    Yep, type that in to Google and you come up with loads of AntiSemitic hysterical nonsense. Makes Dan Brown look quite respectable.

    I asked God to destroy both steeple and stul (pagan Baal and Phallic worship) and it happened, so does that make me antichrist or anti church?

    Neither. Deluded or wacko would be more accurate.

    Have you wondered why that though we speak the same language, we do not understand each other? How Babylonian is that?

    Yep because one of us here is talking cr@p, communicating using strange secret terms gleaned from the edges of reality (or is that unreality). There’s hardly a post a post from you where I don’t have to try work out what on earth you’re talking about.

    Why does Jesus hate Wellington/New Zealand/ Australia more than say Tehran or Beijing?

    I think Blackadder is talking to you.
    Now, “Any history of insanity in the family?”… Tell you what. I’ll cross out the “in.” “Any history of sanity in the family?” … None whatsoever.

  340. Every credible reference I can find is that “church” probably comes from Old-English “Cirice” not “Circe”. Websters dictionary dosent list “Circe” today.

    Have you ever considered that it might have been a mis-print in the first edition?

    Nah, the Royal Family, the Sanhedrin and the Pope must have got together and put pressure on the publishers to erase it. They cant have people knowing the truth.

  341. Of course there are those who believe the Gospels themselves were inspired by paganism. Ancient Paganism, the term loosely used, espoused beliefs about an omnipresent diety, a son of god in human form, an invisible god-spirit, a world-wide flood, expiation of sin by blood sacrifice, a priesthood, laws from a diety, future punishments below, glory above, virgin births.

    Sound familiar?

  342. Most, if not every culture, has a salvation message and tribes which are closer to God than others. The echo of the story of salvation resonates because it is inscribed upon the heart – it is central to our condition, for we are spirits and we came from God and will return to Him.

    Also, the enemy knows the story and he can twist and change things to create false messiahs and myths which seem remarkably familiar – he even changed Passover into Easter and came up with some nonsense called Xmas,and Purim and Hannukah – try and find any of them in your bible, let alone any injunction or instruction to celebrate birthdays, another pagan tradition. The question is, are we Pagan flavoured Christians or Christian flavoured Pagans?

    As for Church, I think if you dig a little deeper out will find that it is directly etymologically linked to Circe.

    But my Jesus is the Saviour of ALL MANKIND especially those who believe – and yours too? 0(:->)

  343. Hey Vice Pope Gregory, and Wazza, read this and weep. And never forget that the Jews still think Jesus was insane….

    In answer to this posting I have the following opinions.
    “Does anyone know the etymology of kurios? I’m also curious on how it was originally used before the LXX appropriated it for the name YHWH. It doesn’t seem to parallel the Latin dominus (from domus, house) nor does it seem to be the original word for “master” such as master of slaves. Anyone have a clue?
    It originally comes from the word kuros meaning supreme power or authority.
    I delved into this word some time ago when I researched the etymology of the word “church”. What brought about this research was when I read the following statement regarding the rules given for the translation of the King James to the translators.
    3. The old ecclesiastical words to be kept, viz., as the word ‘church’ not to be translated ‘congregation’. (Mombert, The English Versions of the Bible)
    Under the word church in Web. New Int. Dic. of the English Language 1942 ed. it states:
    church, from
    Middle English chirche,
    from Anglo Saxon, circe,
    from Greek kyriakon the Lord’s house,
    from kyriakos concerning a master or lord,
    from kyrios master, lord,
    from kyros power, authority;
    akin to Sanskrit sura mighty, bold,
    Old Irish caur, cur, hero,
    confir Kirk.

    This is a 1942 dictionary and it seems that there is no standardized transliterated Greek spelling; just as there used to be not standardized English spelling in general.
    Notice the spelling of the word “chirche” and how we now spell it “church”. And again how it’s pronounced “church” in Britain and “Kirk” in Scotland.
    This was all because spelling was not standardized untill dictionaries were introduced in the mid 1600s, and was not really stabilised until the 1800s, when the spelling of most words was set.

    So was Greek any different? Probably not. Depending on what dialect you spoke and where you were from, would determine how you pronounced a word and that would also determine how you spelled it. So when it comes to the Greek word kurios you have some interesting things going on. For one thing notice in the dictionary above the spelling as “kyrios” instead of kurios. The same holds true for other variations of the spelling ker, kir, kyr, kur and even hier as in kerka, kerkax, hierax, hierarchy.
    For instance trace out the spelling on Perseus and see the similarities.
    kuros – supreme power or authority
    kurios – of people authoritative, or master
    keras – the horn of an animal, horns always represented “power” in the ancient world.
    kerka – kerkax and also spelled hierax meaning hawk, often associated and symbolized with the gods. Then going over to hierarchy also relating to the gods.
    kirka – a kind of hawk, or a kind of wolf, or meaning a circle from which the Latin got circus.
    keiris – a fabulous bird, hierax (hawk)
    kuros – supreme power or authority
    And in mythology
    Circe [sir’see] or Kirke, “hawk.”
    A sorceress-the daughter of Helios and the sister of Aeëtes – she lived on the island of Aeaea. She purified Jason and Medea of the murder of Medea’s brother, Apsyrtus (Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 4.559-591, 4.659-752; Apollodorus 1.9.24). Odysseus spent an entire year with Circe on his way back to Ithaca after the Trojan War. She directed him to go to the Underworld for a consultation with Tiresias. Telegonus was the son of Circe and Odysseus; when Telegonus grew up, he killed his father accidentally (Homer, Odyssey 10.133-574). Family Tree
    In the Bible, devils which are angels, which pawned themselves off to men as “gods” are also called “birds of the air” or “unclean and hateful birds”. The hawk was an unclean bird, or bird of prey. These angels called devils preyed on mankind. So you can see the relation of the words in some degree as they developed.
    I mean you can see why this word developed into the word for power, hence the one who had the power i.e. the master or Lord, the gods were the masters, who had the ultimate power and who like a hawk could see everything you did as it “circled” overhead. And hence were “head-over” you. And as the head of an animal is where the “horns” are and give it power over its enemies. Thus the power is in the “head”, which represents either the “head” power or authority, and also your “head”, your brain, which is supposed to be renewed to the Word because the real battle field is in the mind, between your two earballs, and you should “mind”, think about and obey the authority. You just want to make sure you are “minding” the right authority since there is more than one master.

    Sorry if that’s a little off subject, but it is related to the etymology of the word kurios, since it has evolved into the English word “church”. Maybe not today but at one time (and probably in the future) that word “church” struck absolute fear into the hearts of men. If you ever heard someone say “Hey the church is looking for you”, it had about the same effect as being a Jew in Nazi Germany with the SS looking for you, or Russia and the KGB, or a protestant and the Jesuits, or an American and the IRS.
    Besides kuros you also have words like iskuros, which in the Englishman’s Greek Concordance is spelled ‘iskuros’ but on Perseus is spelled ‘ischros’, but see how spelling effects things, how you get both that ‘k’ and ‘ch’ from ‘khi’. So it comes to us as either “church” or “kirk”. And thus also because of spelling how we would never dream that the English word “church” actually came from a totally different Greek word other than ecclesia (also spelled ekklesia). And the fact that the actual word “ecclesia” is in the English Dictionary is rather strange too. I mean since it made it’s way into our language why not just call the “ecclesia” the “ecclesia”????
    Web. Dic.
    ecclesia. 1. In ancient Greek states a political assembly of the citizens, esp. at Athens….2. A church, either the body of members or building. 3. One of a local organization of the Christadelphians.
    So then HOW in the world did the hierarcy of the church come up with the word “church” from a completely different Greek word and “slide” it into our language having all kinds of connotations that play on the emotions and sacred cow beliefs of people, to become this super powerful entity of dread? By the way ever been asked this question; “We didn’t see you in CHURCH last Sunday”. And ever felt guilty about it?
    Here is an interesting form of the word kuros.
    Rev. 18:10 Babylon that mighty (iskuros) city….
    Now if we took that word and developed it in the manner the word kuros was used to eventually come up with the word “church” we could say it this way. “Babylon that is-Church- city…”
    The question then becomes does root error apply when we go forward instead of backward? And dose it apply in English going back to Greek? When something does not as yet exist, when there is no word or concept for it, how do you explain it in words to someone who has no word for it? Maybe you use the closest word possible to what it will become, hoping someone will get a clue.
    Anyway these were just some things I thought were interesting about that word.

  344. Oh, and just for good measure, all you scripture hounds, look up who are the two giant effigies which feature in the Lord Mayor’s parade in London each year. They are named Gog and Magog and are the two giants which protect The City, which is of course the financial capital of the world. To save you some time, just think who were the two Giants which protected The City during the wars and where do the descendants of Napheth dwell?

    Now look at the prophets and see what Jesus does with the hordes of Gog and Magog which come up and cover the land? Oh, you thought that it was an army from Russia? Yep, an army of Russian Jews, and Ethiopian, and Polish, and German, and on and on – just like Ezekiel said…and now the Russian Jews are forming Cabalistic crime cartels and taking over. Meanwhile the real people of the land are waiting until Messiah returns and cleans out his enemies and sets up His government and THEN calls the people from among the nations….so who is that bunch there now? It was all set up with Rothschild money and influence and it will produce the false messiah, aka the antichrist – unless you are historicist or preterit, in which case it will not happen in your reality…LOL.

    You do not have to dig too far to find the sewers under The City. Gee, and you thought you were the good guys….Pharisees…..your forebears consented to the killing of the prophets and you still do.

    But I don’t care, I’m crazy, and who would listen to a crazy man? You guys really have no idea what is going on, do you? Take the challenge, agree with me that we all get to hear the truth form the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit. But you are so sure you are right, yes? And unlike me, you are all sane and prefer your own opinion and judgment, yes?

    And I say unto you that it says in your law that ye are gods – and you shall be as gods, knowing or judging both the good and the evil.

  345. Now look at the prophets and see what Jesus does with the hordes of Gog and Magog which come up and cover the land? Oh, you thought that it was an army from Russia? Yep, an army of Russian Jews, and Ethiopian, and Polish, and German, and on and on – just like Ezekiel said…and now the Russian Jews are forming Cabalistic crime cartels and taking over.

    That was an evil lie in the 1930s and 1940s which the Nazis used. It’s an evil lie now. I’m amazed that people haven’t learned from history. Maybe Dawkins and Hitchens have a point about Christians. I’m ashamed at times of the things believers in Jesus say. Why do we put of with this when we’ve seen the consequences and who these lies are from.

  346. Sorry sport, I think you will find it is you who are promulgating misconceptions and myths, but that is what you have been propagandized and conditioned to. Think of it this way, if you don’t like poofters, you are a homophobe, right? Obviously both are wrong – the point is that denigration of dissent by the contradiction of didactic discombobulation is the art of the Pharisee – to twist, to insinuate, to denigrate – and the most effective emissaries of this moribund malaise are they who appear as to be ministers of righteousness. But for the record, here is the word from the horses mouth, so to speak.

    http://www.lordmayorshow.org/visitors/procession/gogmagog

    You really need to swot up on the Talmud and Cabala and who the real Israel is. My wife is Jewish, but then so was Hitler’s!

    But then we are all the SEED of Abraham in Christ, and the promise was not (only) to Abraham, but to the SEED, which is CHRIST, and it is no longer “I” that lives but Christ which ever lives in me – “I” ceased to be on Calvary so your barbs only hit dead flesh. 0(:->)

  347. Perhaps you might study why the Jewish people of New Orleans rejected the Talmudists and Zionists and ponder the consequences they suffered through the judgment brought upon that community, and especially on the people of colour, by their false prophets Bakker and Clement as they prophesied the destruction of New Orleans.by Katrina. Hey, I was called into intercession over that hurricane – I won’t tell you what happened – you would not believe me anyway – but suffice to say in part that it was given to me that the church in America is manipulated and milked of its power by very clever manipulators who harvest agreement – they in effect infect the individuals with spy-bots which are doctrines of devils, traditions and myths which become hooks in their flesh. Remember Paul said to beware the myths of the Jews? He was talking about the oral tradition – the Babylonian Talmud.

    Anyway, by these spy-bots there is built up a bot-net of believers, people who do not even realise that the computers of their minds have been highjacked and hoodwinked and taken over and that they are being manipulated into agreeing in a Babylonian Bot-net, under the illusion of having a free will (thank you Voltaire, 33rd degee Mason and illuminist – if you want to know all about free will, read Romans 9, you piece of dirt, I mean clay.).

    You are either getting the picture a little better now or running for your redoubts and firing up the Pharisaic phasers to flambe the “false” prophet. But I don’t care, I was shown the future of the church and civilization nearly 30 yrs ago and now I see it happening right before my eyes.

    The next EQ in ChCh should make you sit up and take notice, but the one after that, and then after that, and that, will really make you wonder what is going on. This is it folks in case you missed the previews – this is the close-out – this is the end of the church age and the beginning of the days of the Son of Man. You know, its in the Bible – you have got one, yes? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    I cannot wait to see the look on the faces of puzzled preterits and horrified historicists alike! It will be precious! But then I will be too busy helping with the scattered sheep to worry about just what particular pin head theologians are pontificating on when the boom comes down, and believe me, it will, I cannot change it one bit, I can only help those who are given to me to do so. In case you have not noticed, John did not say that there was a conditional caveat on Revelation – you cannot change one word of that book, whether by omission or design – it shall come to pass, unless of course your are preterit …..0(:->)

    By the way, did you notice that Jesus offended everyone except John and Mary? If I should share in his sufferings, then I am of all men most blessed – if He be for me, who may be against me? But if I am wrong, then of course you will be gracious and merciful and kind, but if you are wrong, you will suffer loss, yet shall you gain thereby. It is only pride which makes you angry, true righteous indignation is a whole other thing, it is anger at sin.

    Leviathan is the religious spirit, it is the king of the proud.

    If you do not understand that these are days foretold of in Isaiah 27:1, then I pity you.

  348. Nothing in your post is new. The same delusions and conspiracies were being passed on thirty years ago to eager and nonthinking Christians who took everything they were told at face value. Only the technology has changed. Spy bots is it now eh. When I was young, it was bar codes. Your comment about the Jews goes back to 1930s Germany. Comments that the Jewish Bolsheviks and criminals were going to take over the world leading to a genocidal Holocaust. That is traight out of Mein Kampf.

    You aren’t living in the light, you are living in the shadows. Skulking around looking for conspiracies because the truth isn’t interesting enough.

    Oh and Hitler’s wife wasn’t Jewish.

  349. As for prophesying disaster, the Feb 22 EQ which I prophesied in this forum, changed the plans for the world cup. I also said that on October 16th, NZ would play OZ. On that day, an intercessor I know said that he birthed something HUGE in the Spirit. God does nothing without involving His prophets. The Big One is coming, as well as a smaller final warning.

    Well, that isn’t too surprising is it? NZ in the semi against the slight upset of Australia … (Ireland beat them in the pool)

    Now, if you’d have said that Wales would lose the semi-final to France by 1 point after Captain Sam got sent off after a nothing tackle … (the rules on spear tackling being put in place after the Lions toured NZ in 2005 and Tana Umaga deliberately spear-tackled Brian O’Driscoll out of the tour … do that in the street and you get sent down for GBH!)

    … then you’d have gained a reputation for prophecy. As it is, it just looks like a lucky guess. Here we go then.

    Your challenge is to predict the outcome of the Six-Nations in order. If you can do that, I’ll be impressed.

    By the way, what does “birthed something HUGE in the Spirit” mean???

    In terms of miracles … how many resurrections from the dead have you performed? How many cases of AIDS have you healed? How many terminal cancers have you forced into remission?

    Oh … and Bulls don’t howl. They snort … or something.

  350. Bones,
    ‘Of course there are those who believe the Gospels themselves were inspired by paganism. Ancient Paganism, the term loosely used, espoused beliefs about an omnipresent diety, a son of god in human form, an invisible god-spirit, a world-wide flood, expiation of sin by blood sacrifice, a priesthood, laws from a diety, future punishments below, glory above, virgin births.’

    Naturally this happened because the mysteries were known form Genesis, but corrupted to refer to men, particularly Adam (Enosh, Janus) as well as female entities Eve, as deities. Deification of human entities (Nimrod, Semiramis, and birth of the man-child redeemer), has been the habit of men for ages upon ages.

    Paganism didn’t create the omnipresent deity, etc, but imitated the truth of it and corrupted it to refer to human deities.

    Hence the lie that the true Deity is derived from paganism, when, in fact, it was a copy of the true Deity, corrupted over antiquities.

    We have the same thing happening even now with the deification of sporting and movie comic Marvell ‘heroes’ (Batman, etc), and even of weather patterns (el Nino) and systems (Gaia) even by purportedly intelligent folk like artists and scientists.

    Nothing new under the sun!

  351. Remember, Bones, that it was from Seth, third named son of Adam, that men began to acknowledge the Deity. Enoch walked with God and was caught up. Much more was known of he true Deity than is commonly taught, from very early times. Although they were mysteries to most, those who walked closely with God were privy to them, it seems, and even had encounters with the Spirit or with the Christ.

    From then, through Nimrod, men sought to deify man in rebellion towards the One True God, to reach the highest heaven, and be like gods as satan blinded their minds, and the knowledge of good and evil kicked in.

  352. Hitler’s Wife was not Jewish.

    Indeed they were married for an afternoon or something. Then Hitler shot her dead and then killed himself.

    While not all Israel is God’s Israel, the Israel of God includes those Jews who have trusted in Him. This includes Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Prophets, the Judges, David and Solomon.

    There are many millions of Jews in the Kingdom. Just there are many millions of Gentiles. Paul tells us that in the end, All Israel will be saved. This means Israel as a whole … not necessarily every Jew.

    But we know the end of History will have an Anti-Christ who puts himself in place of God in the temple. This could mean a physical temple in Jerusalem. It could mean a spiritual temple … i.e. our bodies as believers.

    The important thing is to recognise that it is a predicted future event that will only be saved by the return of Jesus Christ in his resurrection body to Planet Earth.

    If Christians are not raptured away from the tribulation, it will be the most extreme test of the faith. Since Jesus spoke about this as a future event we must be careful. Did it have an immediate fulfillment? Yes it did. However, the Prophets of the Old Testament frequently predicted events that had an immediate (though partial) fulfillment as well as an ultimate fulfillment.

    So just because there was a partial fulfillment of the Prophecies of Jesus regarding the fall of Jerusalem, doesn’t mean that it is the only or ultimate fulfillment. Many things didn’t happen in the first century destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.

    Still more is to take place.

    When? Who can say? What I cannot do, is add to scripture. The danger in extra-biblical revelation is exactly that. If you don’t contradict scripture then what is said is nothing new. If you do contradict scripture then either you or God is lying.

    Are you adding to Scripture, Ian?

  353. Hitler had a documented obsession with a Jewish girl – but Eva Braun’s and his bloodline is difficult to trace – try wiki-answers and see what happens. It is held in some quarters that he was descended from Solomon Rothschild and Hitler’s first act when annexing Austria was to confiscate any records of his lineage.

    Paul tells us that there is a certain blindness of heart which afflicts a portion of Israel, until ALL THE NATIONS COME IN THEIR ENTIRETY, AND THEN ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female.

    My instruction is that we will be going through the tribulation and any catching up to be with the Lord shall be at the last trump. The vision I was given of the future was of extreme financial depression and societal breakdown and a return to a communalistic state for survival.

    It was as if all hope had departed – ichabod and all that – and that everything people had set their store by was now lost to them. It was like hell on earth – no hope, just utter hopelessness – and then the HOPE of the kingdom comes – the Son of Man.

    What is about to break in this nation is going to change the way the world sees God but first the OLD constructs must be laid low – the towers to the heavens to be revealed for what they are.

    Jesus did not tell us to build towers, He told us to count the cost.

    The cost of our tower building is our soul – if we exchange our soul for all the world has to offer, we lose sight of who we really are and who others are.

    I have been given to seen the congregation of heaven – it is huge – it is billions upon billions – it is a sea of people as far as the eye can see – all arrayed in their nations and all facing the throne and all worshiping God. It was quite a sight.

    And just for good measure, did you know that the leading Rabbinic scholars including the head of the Sanhedrin, identified AMERICA as being Meshech and Tubal and that their leader and king is GOG? No kidding. This is much more complex than it may seem.

    http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hamashiach/the-chief-prince-of-meshech-and-tubal/

  354. Did you receive that ‘revelation’ etched on gold plates from the same angels as Joseph Smith, Ian, because some of these things seem awfully similar?

    The only way people need to see God is through his Son Jesus Christ. They can only come to the Father through the Son. That truth has not changed since the day Jesus announced it. God is not about to unleash anything which will change this. He doesn’t need to. Jesus told us to have faith in him, and then we would be saved as we confessed him as Lord.

    With all of your tales of gloom you are talking rot.

    Repentance begins with the God-given revelation that Jesus is the Christ, which can only come through the preaching of the gospel, not through disasters, mayhem or destruction.

    We are changed through the goodness of God, not the wrath.

    When the wrath is unleashed, Ian, it will be too late for those who go through it. It will usher in a time of great tribulation, but the saints will have been removed form the earth. We are not reserved for the wrath to come.

    If you would spend more time reading your Bible rather than trawling through wikipedia for evidence to back up your doom-laden conspiracy theories you would know that God has sent Jesus to save the world not to condemn it.

    And when you do read your Bible try to see the good news Jesus told us to preach to those who will believe as well as all the warnings he gave for those who will not.

    And it would help to stop treating those of us who are already believers as if we are unsaved.

  355. Steve, I don’t believe that the Biblical accounts are influenced by pagan mythology. I was pointing out that if you want to look at pagan influences in Early Christianity (such as that spuriously claimed by Viola & Barna and the chap here) then there are some who believe the whole Gospel account to be influenced by paganism such as Zoroastranism.

    How far do you want to go?

    That’s one argument non-believers will make to discredit the gospels.

  356. Are these guys prophets as well?

    http://au.news.yahoo.com/queensland/a/-/world/12566088/1900-magazine-looks-100-years-into-the-future/

    In 1900 civil engineer John Elfreth Watkins Jr wrote an article for The Ladies Home Journal, called ‘What May Happen in the next Hundred Years’; and remarkably, some of his predictions were right on the money.

    Watkins, who worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad, consulted with ‘the wisest and most careful men in our greatest institutions of science and learning’, to come up with the predictions.

    He warned the reader that some of the predictions may seem ‘strange, almost impossible’, but each prediction came from experts in their respective fields.

    The experts it seems, were on to something.

    Among the 28 predictions made in the article, several came remarkably close to reality 100 years later, while some were way off the mark.

    Among them;

    Digital colour photography – “Photographs will be telegraphed from any distance. If there be a battle in China a hundred years hence, snapshots of its most striking events will be published in the newspapers an hour later…. photographs will reproduce all of nature’s colours.”

    Americans will get taller – “Americans will be taller by from one to two inches.” In 2001, Americans were 1.76cm taller than their predecessors of 100 years earlier.

    Mobile phones – Watkins wrote, “Wireless telephone and telegraph circuits will span the world. A husband in the middle of the Atlantic will be able to converse with his wife sitting in her boudoir in Chicago. We will be able to telephone to China quite as readily as we now talk from New York to Brooklyn.”

    Pre-cooked meals – “Ready-cooked meals will be bought from establishment similar to our bakeries of today.”

    Population growth – There will probably be from 350,000,000 to 500,000,000 people in America [the US].” . This prediction was slightly off the mark, but they were on the right track. In 2001, the US population had only hit 280,000,000. The prediction was also not based on general population growth, but on the experts’ belief that both Nicaragua and Mexico would become part of the United States.

    Tanks – The experts foresaw wars where “huge forts on wheels will dash across open spaces at the speed of express trains of today.”

    Watkins also appeared to have something of an obsession with fruit. He looked forward to the day when vegetables would be grown under artificial light (true) and fruits such as strawberries and pears would be twice the size they were in 1900. (also true)

    Radio & Television – “Man will see around the world. Persons and things of all kinds will be brought within focus of cameras connected electrically with screens at opposite ends of circuits, thousands of miles at a span.”

    Watkins also predicted a form of radio. “Grand Opera will be telephoned to private homes, and will sound as harmonious as though enjoyed from a theatre box”, he said.

    Very fast trains – “Trains will run two miles a minute normally. Express trains one hundred and fifty miles per hour.”. While most trains don’t quite get up to this speed (especially in Sydney), today’s very fast trains are now able to go considerably faster than 150 mp/h. The experts also predicted faster travel by boat and ‘airships’.

    Air Conditioning – “Hot or cold air will be turned on from spigots to regulate the temperature of a house”.

    Not everything went quite how Watkins predicted, however.

    Among those predictions that didn’t quite come to fruition was the belief that the letters X, C and Q would be eliminated from the alphabet, (unnecessary, Watkins said). Instead, Watkins believed we would all be spelling simply by sound.

    Watkins also predicted people would walk ’10 miles a day’, leaving our major cities virtually free of traffic, which he believed would be “below or above ground when brought within city limits.”

    The article also predicted big changes for the animal kingdom. He claimed the only animals we would see were the ones kept in zoos, while rats, mice, cockroaches and mosquitoes would be extinct.

    This prediction, we kind of wish would come true.

  357. It would be interesting to see if the letters he thought would become obsolete have declined in frequency … particularly with new words being invented for new tech.

    Today we can safely say that Tanks have gone the way of Cavalry. Yes we’ve got them, but the best tanks are sitting ducks these days.

    Tanks are good against lower tech armies but if there were another European war, they would be crushed from the sky. Air Power is the dominant arm. Get Air Superiority and you are in control of teh Battlefield. The oft quoted promise since WW2 has finally come true … in Lybia.

  358. Actually that bit about spelling by sound is coming true. It’s the way spelling is taught in schools now (ie n, kn, nn, gn all go ‘ner’) and you can see it in text messages as well.

  359. Who is like unto beast who can make war with him? We are on the brink of WW3 and you are dickering over spelling already? Oi vey!

    Speaking of the BEAST, we have just had a gaggle of Senators dispatched by the Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal do a whistle stop tour (to view the effects of what they have been doing with their HAARP bizzos?).

    This is the third time they have come – the last two times were followed almost immediately by the worst of the EQ’s.

    The two most valuable things on earth are land and fresh water, and we have plenty of both. It won’t be long before we have to pay some American water baron(s) for our own water.

    Plus of course this is the Great South Land of the Spirit. Take a line due South from Espiritu Santo and the first landfall is Southland, New Zealand.

    This is also why we get a lot of Israeli agents turning up here – the devil’s mob know more about what is happening here than most Xians.

    Speaking of the REAL ISRAEL, it is not a nation, or a country, it is a state of being. In the real Israel, there is neither Jew nor other, male nor female, bond nor free. Get that, NOR FREE – we tend to overlook that little point that we are all prisoners of Christ.

    The twelve Patriarchs received the promise through Abraham – the Promise came and was crucified on Calvary – the promise was to the SEED, as of ONE, which is Christ and Christ IS REAL and the ISRAEL OF THE SPIRIT IS CHRIST. It was an age lasting Covenant, and guess what? That Age ended on Calvary when Jesus said, “It is FINISHED!”

    The Promise has come already – we need to learn to sing The New Song. But remember what Jesus said about His marriage supper? That many those who are invited will miss it and those who are gathered from the highways and byways will come in. We all of us who name Jesus must bare our hearts before God and ask of Him a simply question – am i looking for His appearing? It is way past time to be wise virgins and to stop playing church with the oil vendors and come out from among her and be separated unto God. This is no ordinary time and Jesus will be looking for one thing when he returns – faith. Those people of faith who seek Him and wait on Him will be filled to overflowing and become His ministers of Fire.

    You think you have seen “on fire Christians”? You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet!

    It is not the spelling that is critical but the SPELL being cast through the control of mass media which has befuddled so many into a Disneyland existence of deception and duplicity.

    Awake thou sleeper! Arise and shine.

  360. ”Take a line due South from Espiritu Santo and the first landfall is Southland, New Zealand.”

    Looks more like New Caledonia to me, Ian. Anyway your point was what precisely from that sentence?

    Also, HAARP. A NWO means to control weather? Again, what picture are you trying to build?

    And ‘Xians’. See, I would not dream of abbreviating the ‘Christ’ in ‘Christians’ down to an X. Like ‘Xmas’, which I loath seeing written. Criss-cross, or Crosstians (of which I know a few actually!). It makes no sense.

    You write as one with knowledge, but there is a good degree of new-agey flavoured mix in with what seems perfectly sound readings of the times. My ‘is this for real?’ antennae get twitchy reading your posts. Personally, I don’t think anything significant will break out at a global level until the 2020s. Everything is too embryonic right now for the kind of world one world govt you envisage.

    That doesn’t make me complacent. I certainly won’t be mocking Noah if I see him ship building on a cloudless day (if you get the metaphor).

  361. Zeibart. wow only those couple of things had you doubting. My “this is bullsh*t” alarm went off a long time ago. and it’s dangerous.

    Let’s examine this tatement from Ian

    And just for good measure, did you know that the leading Rabbinic scholars including the head of the Sanhedrin, identified AMERICA as being Meshech and Tubal and that their leader and king is GOG

    The original account by Texe Marrs can be viewed here.

    http://www.texemarrs.com/042008/gog_magog_scroll_of_bush.htm

    To be continued

  362. So who is Texe Marrs?

    Marrs is deeply anti-semitic and anti-Catholic and alleges the Pope is not actually Catholic but a crypto Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Bob Dylan fan who will implement the one world religion. He writes about the Illuminati, UFOs and shape-shifting lizard people as well as New Age conspiracies.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Texe_Marrs

    The guy’s a loony as is Ian as is anyone who believes that garbage.

  363. Actualy Texe Marr’s homepage is a hoot.

    You can buy Heirloom seeds and the Survival Seed Vault and how to garden in a square foot for when food shortages come from that pesky Satanic NWO.

    Some quotes from his articles which you can look up here

    http://www.powerofprophecy.com/

    Pyramid Mysteries of the Atomic Bomb

    The Satanists who form the inner circle of Illuminism literally worship and revere the atomic bomb and nuclear power. To these evil, insane, cabalistic Jewish psychopaths, the Bomb represents their “God.” This is the deity whom the prophet Daniel, in the Holy Scriptures, identifies as the “God of Forces.” This “God” is thought to be an energy force of nature. To his obedient disciples, the God of Forces bequeaths his divine Luciferian current. By using this supernatural energy current, the Masonic potentates of the Jewish-led Illuminati believe they will destroy their enemies and establish the final kingdom on planet earth.

    That kingdom, they are confident, will be a Jewish Utopia overseen by a Jewish Messiah, a divine new King of Israel. In such a Kingdom—a Big Brother police state and New World Order—Gentiles everywhere will serve their masters, Talmudic Jews. Either that, or they will be beheaded and terminated.

    Jaws of the Serpent

    1. Truth—The Jews and the Jewish Nation are in bondage to and are under the control of their god. Their god is, without question, Satan, the Devil and Serpent of Perdition.
    2. Truth—The Jews, like termites from hell, have undermined and eventually have destroyed every nation in which they resided and acquired dominance.
    3. Truth—The Jews have now gained the upper-hand in American politics, culture, and religion, and our nation is suffering the painful, parasite-infested process of unholy destruction

    The Illuminati and its Triad of Evil

    Another revelation that U.S.A. and western journalists and historians are prohibited from writing about concerns the Jewish origins of Mao Tse Tung’s Red Chinese revolution. In fact, Mao was a stupid and inept Chinese peasant who was schooled by Skull and Bonesmen and initiated into the internationalist Masonic Lodge by socialist Jews from the United States. This was done with the tacit permission of President Franklin D. Roosevelt, a 32nd degree Mason and, later, President Harry S. Truman a 33rd degree Mason.
    Mao all along has been a closely-controlled puppet of Jewish revolutionaries—men like Israel Epstein and Sidney Shapiro, who lived in China and had the reins of power over two key areas of Beijing’s Communist Government—the treasury (money) and the media (propaganda). Interestingly, Zionist Jews hold sway over these same two essential instruments of government today in the United States.

  364. It’s amazing what 15 minutes of research can do.

    Funny thing here is one conspiracist haulingTexe Marrs for not being wacky enough.

    Texe apparently believed the Columbine school massacres were perpetuated by Jewish homosexuals who hated Christians. When in fact it was a military intelligence death squad.

    They’re funny these wackos. And an embarassment to Christ.

    http://truthin7minutes.com/Texe-Marrs.php

  365. Let’s look at this qute from Ian

    It was all set up with Rothschild money and influence and it will produce the false messiah, aka the antichrist – unless you are historicist or preterit, in which case it will not happen in your reality…LOL.

    I wonder where he got that from. Oh Hi Texe the loony is back.

    http://www.texemarrs.com/112009/new_babylon_article.htm

    Thus, as we finish out the first decade of the 21st century, we have Rothschild, Israel, and Jews (Zionist conquerors and criminal elite) literally standing atop the U.S.A. heap, with President Obama as their media-made hero and champion. The whole world is falling into line, as global banks and corporations merge, and the few rogue, dissenting nations that remain (e.g. North Korea, Iran) are dealt with, using America’s mighty military arm as a threat and potential bludgeon.“Behold, I have told you before”

  366. I’m still trying to work out why God hates New Zealand/ Wellington?

    Is it because they won the Rugby World Cup?

    God must be happier with places like Sudan, North Korea, _________ (insert any other demented nutcase country).

  367. I see you know little or even nothing of what goes on in Wellington, or Canberra, or Ottawa, or Washington or London etc. etc. You probably labor under the illusion that these are Christian countries?

    The Commonwealth of Nations (including America) were set up as British/Sionist experiments in government (even Marx knew this) – each with its own peculiar flavor but with one common features – white rule and the decimation, subjugation and assimilation of indigenous cultures in the name of civilization and progress but which was in essence pagan plunder. The Nicolaitans of the Catholic Church and its various branches were right at the forefront of this plunder.

    Now consider this – The Hebrews were God’s chosen vessel to bring the Messiah into being – and they were given much – but to whom much is given, much is expected.. Consider their history and their holocausts, and how they have been judged and sifted.

    The problem being that they thought it to be all about them, whereas it is all about THE SEED, WHICH IS ONE, WHICH IS CHRIST. The “church” today labors under the same exclusivist delusion, hence why they are hopping into bed with the Talmudists and going to Israel to get all goosed up with their emotions which they call worship.

    Jesus said that when He comes again, His own (the church) would reject Him and that He would have His servants compel the wayward and wary to come in – meanwhile the theologians will be reasoning within themselves but those who know Jesus will be reasoning with Him, having His mind and His characteristics of love.

    If I told you some of what i know has happened in Wellington you would not believe me, but I heard that this country will not embrace its destiny until it has been brought to its knees, and that God was going to divide all who seek to divide this nation. After the disasters Australia will likely assimilate NZ as we will be as poor as a church mouse, but the healing God will work between races here will be exported to Australia as the second to see the light of the New Day.

    Religious folk were the persecutors of Jesus, they still are…

    “When you have truly laid down your life, you will look up to everyone”,

    Ask yourself this question, “Who do I personally want to see got to hell to suffer for all eternity?”

  368. Ian, ‘If I told you some of what i know has happened in Wellington you would not believe me’

    If it’s anything like what you have written you’d be absolutely right. I wouldn’t believe a word of it. It’s just about the only correct thing you’ve said.

    I notice how often you dangle these half-cocked ‘mysteries’ in front of everyone as if you have an exclusive understanding of Christ and his Word, but everyone else is way up the creek. According to your exclusive reasoning we’re all Pharisees, Zionists or conspirators against Christ.

    Honestly, Ian, you need to be delivered from these delusions of grandeur, to get into the simplicity which is Christ. Or help yourself break free and repent. Stop trying to prove yourself to be someone special, and humble yourself under the mighty hand of God.

    Are you so insecure in your faith that you need ot be someone special? Set apart like no one else with revelations no other human being has ever had, as if there really is something new under the sun and it is shining on you alone!

    That is such a dangerous place to be, Ian. Really!

    I think you’re a genuine enough sort of person, earnestly and sincerely looking for truth, but you can’t isolate yourself from the Body like this and not be considered a lost sheep. A sheep, yes. One of God’s own, probably, but lost all the same, not in the sense of being unsaved, but in the sense of having been in the fold, but wondering off after pastures which God has not led you into, but away into this deep fog of obscure ideology.

    I can see that it’s been a long, long time since you went anywhere near a church to do anything but give some kind of dire warning, or tell them about an error you have been ‘sent’ to declare before it is too late for them.

    You may have some snippets of information which have substance, which anyone can gather form the net, but mostly what you say is pointless to God’s cause, and given a caustic edge by mere fear preaching about God’s apparent anger towards everyone you know and have met, especially those of your own nation, which, as far as I can see, has a high proportion of believers compared to many others, and has had more revivals in the lat hundred years than perhaps any other comparable nation, mainly because of godly men and women who have fervently sought God in prayer and fasting and have cried out for an awakening.

    Do yourself a favour and come back in from your solitude and join in with the worship which is being poured out towards God in most of the gatherings in your nation. Make a difference by entering back into communion with the saints instead of kicking against the pricks and condemning the brethren with your words, for which you will be judged.

    Get back into the richness of the Word and Spirit, where there is liberty, and not condemnation.

  369. Bones vs Ian W – bit like Gandalf vs the Balrog (take your pick who’s who). I think I’ll just watch from the sidelines.

  370. You probably labor under the illusion that these are Christian countries?

    Hahaha. I thought someone so discerning and knowledgeable would know that I believe these countries are all secular.

    Ian, the source of your information has been discovered and is a nutbag. You have less than zero credibility.

    Like a true cultist, Ian is not interested in dialogue and will not dialogue with those who pick up his errors.

    What’s sad is there are those thinking “but he might be right.”

    Zeibart, at least Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings was closer to reality than the rot written here.

  371. Back to Joseph Prince

    Here’s an example of Prince’s exegesis:

    And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.” Luke 2:40

    The verse says that the grace of God was upon Jesus. The Bible also says that where sin abounds, grace abounds much more. (Romans 5:20) And when you put the two together, you may find yourself asking, “If the grace of God was upon Jesus, does it mean that He sinned?”

    No, Jesus did not sin. (2 Corinthians 5:21) So there must be another explanation as to why God’s grace was upon Jesus. There must be another explanation as to why someone can abound in God’s grace even when he has not sinned.

    Let’s look at the word “grace” when it is first mentioned in the Bible. Genesis 6:8 says that “Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord”. Noah’s name means “rest”. So the verse is telling us that rest found grace. In other words, when you rest, you find grace!

    So grace was upon Jesus because His life was a life of rest and trust in His Father.

    Let’s watch that again in slow motion.
    Noah’s name means rest.
    Noah found grace.
    Therefore, rest found grace.
    Therefore, if we rest, we will find grace.
    See how easy that was? No need for those expensive Bible commentaries and long hours studying Hebrew. All you need is a Hebrew name book. Let’s try some ourselves.
    Esau means hairy.
    In Malachi 1, God says, “I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated…”
    Therefore, God hates hairy people.
    Let’s try a Noah one.
    Noah means rest.
    After the flood, Noah got drunk and exposed himself.
    Therefore, when we rest, we should get drunk and … hmm … perhaps this is one of those “don’t try this at home” interpretive stunts.
    http://cognitivediscopants.wordpress.com/2011/12/31/exegesis-youre-doing-it-wrong

  372. Bones, that post of yours should be required reading for the preachers of this world. But it just goes to show how easy it is to make a sermon that people will be impressed by. A bit of Hebrew here, Greek there, and let’s not forget the old “I looked up this word in the dictionary and it can also mean…..”

    But, he’s selling more books than me, so what can I say?

  373. Bones … that was very funny …

    when you see the hero-preacher have a following, he (it’s usually a he) will usually keep his followers dangling with snippets from the Bible that are carefully picked to back up pet theories.

    The old chestnut is where someone picked two verses at random from the bible.

    Verse 1: Judas went out and hanged himself.
    Verse 2: Go and do thou likewise.

    Another one:
    Ten verses a day keeps the devil away.

    No … Bible study has to be systematic. It is all about getting a deep understanding of God’s heart, will and mind. The trouble with us is, we don’t want to put the effort in and so we leave it to the ‘professionals’.

    THe modern professional leaves people dependent on himself, whereas the goal should be to enable the flock to become leaders in their own right.

    ================================================
    Conspiracy theories are loads of fun … but ultimately leave you feeling paranoid with a months supply of fresh water, corned beef and an assault rifle and a thousand rounds of ammo.

    Shalom

  374. Knowing scripture and knowing Jesus are two different things. The Pharisees knew, and know, scripture, well their take on it, yet NONE of them recognized the author and finisher of their faith when He stood in front of them. Plainly then, knowing the words and knowing The Word are even antithetic, hence Jesus came to His own and they KNEW HIM NOT!

    Perhaps the single biggest mistake the Pharisaic mind makes is to assume that one may study scripture to know Jesus – when the opposite is the truth – you need to know Jesus in order to study scripture. What Bible did Moses have? What New Testament did Paul have? What would you do for revelation and information and relationship if you did not have a Bible to study? Study study study you busy little Beavers. Study that you might show yourself that you are approved? But what version do you study and do they all say the same thing? Compare this text from the VA Aramaic with your preferred translations. 2 Timothy 2:

    14. Remind them of these things and witness before our Lord, so as they may not tear each other down with useless words, to the detriment of those who are listening,
    15. Nor that you should become frustrated as you develop your standing before God, such as you are an unabashed worker who preaches the wholesome Manifestation of the Truth.
    16. Depart from empty words that have no worth, for they are moreover borne by those people who earn money with them.
    17. And their manifestation like a gangrene has infected many, one of whom is Hymenaeus and the other Philetus.
    18. These who are lost to the truth, as they claim that the resurrection from the dead is never going to happen (is done for), and they turn back the faith of one person after another.
    19. The true foundation that God has established is that very resurrection, however, and it has a conclusion, and the Lord knows those who are His, and He shall save from oblivion all those who call on the name of the Lord.
    20. In a house, then, there are not only vessels of gold and [vessels] inlaid with silver, except there are also those of wood and clay — some for honorable use and some for desecration.
    21. If a person thus cleanses themselves [from the latter,] they will become a clean vessel that deserves to be used for the honorable purposes of its owner and is appreciated for every good use.
    22. Run away from all the lusts of youth and chase after righteousness, faithfulness, love and peace with those who call after our Lord with a clean heart.
    23. And the foolish perversions, that are non-edifying — have nothing to do with them, for you know they breed strife.
    24. A servant of our Lord need not get involved in strife, except to be gentle to every human being and a teacher, possessing a generous spirit,
    25. So as they may be able to tolerate (put up with) those who act foolishly against them, to understand why God did not grant them goodness and why they know not the truth,
    26. And to rediscover (recall) themselves and escape the traps of Satan, by whom they were entrapped for the sake of his purpose (will).

    Now compare Rev 17:17 and see by whose will they are trapped – and you thought that it was by Satan’s will? Reading is a wonderful thing, comprehension is even wonderfuller (sic). My study mate is the Holy Spirit – Jesus promised that the Spirit of Truth would lead me into all truth. He gave me Doctorate level understanding of Aramaic yet I have never studied it, but you probably won’t believe that.

    Survivalism is no substitute for having overcoming faith and is rooted in fear. What is very necessary though is to see the unbroken religious link from the Garden, via Babylon, to the present day – the operation of Leviathan, the serpent of old, the king of all the proud.

    This trading floor is very compelling for Pearl Merchants to display their wares – but it is the Pearl of Great Price which we are to trade in our pearls for (religious coping mechanisms which cover and beautify irritants with beliefs).

    This is why Jesus was so offensive to all except John and Mary, and why His New Wine dissolves our pearls – so trade them in before they get dissolved in His presence and be shown to be utterly worthless Calcium Tartrate. 0(:->)

    Pray for us, all you saintly sinners, we are going to get some more EQ’s in the next few days – some people are really frightened by the threat of death and we are getting our freaky, pre EQ skies. When the prophets said that the islands would be moved out of their places and the mountains shaken, was this metaphorical of Jesus or is is referring to an as yet unrealized series of disasters to come upon the whole earth? You can no more live in a Mormon of JW bubble than in a preterit, historicist, or dominionist bubble.

    You are either the captive of Christ or of your Leviathan religion, and I for one would not want to be guilty of turning one person from the truth of the resurrection by con-vincing them it has happened or passed already. Show me one person who is truly walking in the fullness of the Power of the Resurrection?

    There is none, but there soon will be!

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  379. Bull, probably because of the title of the post, this seems to be attracting a whole pile of spam comments.

    Maybe you should close off this thread at this juncture, since there is no further worthwhile commentary.

    Maybe that should include any other thread which attracts similar spam.

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  384. for those who believe that tithing is a most or feel guilt for not tithing then watch this video…

    tell me what you think.

  385. Jesus died for our sins so that we may have salvation.

    The richness Jesus and his disciples taught aren’t about material wealth or the acquisition of material wealth – it was about filling, nurturing and feeding one’s soul.

    Everyone has a soul that can be saved.

    Not everyone has a cheque book that can be used.

    The New Testament was to reach out to more people, to spread the word of God NOT not fatten God’s bank account.

    But fatten heaven with souls of people who lead a Godly life.

    What is a Godly life?

    It’s showing humility in face of adversity.

    It’s showing love where there is conflict.

    It’s showing kindness where there is hatred.

    It’s showing gratitude where there is emptiness.

    It’s showing a smile where there is none.

    If we start to tell people that Jesus wants us to empty our pockets for Him so that He can give us what we want then we are preaching a false gospel.

    How can we tell people – that to be Christian, God wants us to give to Him so that He can decide what He can give back to us.

    What happened to agape love? God send us His only son, Jesus Christ, so that He can save the World.

    Isn’t the God we believe in, the God of Unconditional Love?

    If God is Unconditional in Giving His Love then He doesn’t need anything from us BUT our faith and unrestrained devotion to Him.

    That is WORTH more than any material wealth or money can buy.

    How then, will God know how faithful and true we are? Only He will know.

    Hence, the concept of free will.

    God wants us to be free to choose.

    If we choose Him freely then He knows that our love for Him is real and untainted.

    Of course, the “free-ness” of our choice is relative to the scenario we are in.

    Nonetheless, in our life, especially in today’s context, we are continually challenged with temptations and distractions to exercise that free will to be faithful and to follow Christ in our daily life.

    Just ask yourself this.

    How often does money corrupt people in making the right decisions? There would people for and against.

    Then ask yourself this.

    Should our religious leaders be corrupted by money or be in the position to be tempted with that possibility?

  386. I just stumbled onto your site while researching Joseph Prince of which i have no bias. I am very much disappointed at the stone throwing and finger pointing and you do it with so much energy. Regardless of what you may say of all these preachers, they’re doing something you’re not doing because you’re to busy trying to expose them. SPREADING THE GOSPEL! enjoy the haterade with the rest of the haters on this blog, while you celebrate your pagan holidays such as christmas, easter….etc BTW the trinity is made up Jesus, or more appropriately YESHUA, never claimed to be Yaweh. Now that you know that youre involved in some paganism, put the keyboard down go study and stop spreading the hate and discord Mr. Pharisee…

    Baruch Hashem,

    Rob

  387. “I just stumbled onto your site while researching Joseph Prince ”

    Most serious researchers end up here eventually …..

    “enjoy the haterade with the rest of the haters on this blog, while you celebrate your pagan holidays such as christmas, easter…”

    Actually, the researchers who end up here are indeed a mixed bag… But, you sound like you’d fit right in here. 🙂

  388. The whole mess makes a lot more sense when you realize that the itching ear prophets and preachers are what the Church has demanded, much like the people demand a king, and so they demand their own judgment. Judgment must needs be begin with the household of God, but the Church has been holding out against God’s righteous judgment, trying to forestall the inevitable and only laying up wrath for the day of wrath.

    I have been down the prosperity rabbit hole, and was glad to escape, but ironically, I am now debt free and able to give so much more instead of being bound by a tithe burglar and his apprentices. Satan’s ministers appear as to be ministers of righteo