Is The ‘Lake’ In Blake? (Edited, with apologies to Curry Blake).

(ADMIN EDIT: please see the comment I put below the article … I now refute, on behalf of SP02 the character assassination contained in the following article … more edits will be needed, but this is a big article and I will need to be completely rewritten. I am just glad I wasn’t the author! )

Curry Blake. Ever heard of him? Well this is his ministry:

(Observe ‘Dominion Bible Institute’?)

From their website John G Lake Ministries is the following about Curry Blake:

Curry Blake is considered by thousands to be the foremost authority on the subject of healing and the life of Dr. John G. Lake. The leadership of John G. Lake Ministries was passed on to Curry R. Blake due to a prophecy given by Dr. Lake about one year before he went home in 1935. To date, between the two men and those they have trained, this ministry has over 1 million healings/miracles as testimonies. Though often called a “healing ministry”, our actual focus can be summed up as: Genuine Repentance, Genuine Life-in-God, and therefore Genuine Ministry.

Who is Curry Blake?

Excerpt from: “The Azusa Street Revival” by Roberts Liardon – P.204-205

“Although he (Lake) founded a number of institutions, they never gained the widespread prominence of other similar ministries. His daughter, Gertrude, and her husband, Wilford Reidt, carried on his ministry until late in their lives when they officially passed the ministry to a young minister named Curry Blake. Blake had been run over by a car as a baby, but while in the hospital, his mother prayed for him and he miraculously recovered with barely any sign of what was thought to be a life-threatening injury. Unknown to the Blake family at the time, this event occurred exactly 25 years after Lake had given a prophecy about a successor who would come 25 years later. Blake has begun to rebuild Lake’s ministries and vision. Many claim Lake as a spiritual influence, but Blake’s success in the healing ministry, as well as the extent of his vision of Christianity is uniquely reminiscent of Lake himself.”

Born April 1, 1959 in Jasper, TX. At 17 months of age Curry was hit by an automobile in the driveway of his grandparent’s home. Curry’s father did not see him as he was backing out. The car ran over his head, ripping his right ear off. The car’s wheel pinched his scalp to the point that it ripped from his right ear to his left ear. This ripping caused his scalp to be pulled down across his forehead to the top of his eyes.

Curry’s grandfather came out of the house, picked Curry up, picked up his ear, put him in his truck and drove him to the hospital. The doctor’s told Curry’s mother to buy a casket and plan his funeral because there was no way he could survive such extensive brain damage.

Curry’s mother, a Pentecostal, began to pray. She told God that if He would spare Curry’s life, she would raise him and train him to serve Him. The doctors came out of surgery to tell her that if he lived, he would be completely handicapped and that someone would have to care for him the rest of his life.  The doctors went back to surgery and Curry’s mother went back to praying.  This time she said, “God, if you’re going to let him live, then heal him completely.”

After some time, the doctors returned saying, “Well, we can’t find any signs of brain damage, but, if he lives and even if he doesn’t have any brain damage, he will never have any hair and he will never hear out of his right ear.”  Once again his mother began praying.  She told God, that if He was going to let Curry live, that he would be of no use to Him unless he was completely healed.

Today, Curry is totally and perfectly healed. He has at least an average IQ and a full head of hair and perfect hearing in both ears. At 17 years of age, Curry enlisted in the U.S. Air Force as a Security Police, Law Enforcement Specialist.

During his term of enlistment, God began to deal with him about answering the call to ministry.  After some time he decided to go with his heart.  He began to pray about being released from his enlistment contract.  Within 3 days, Curry was called to the C.O’s office, where he was informed that there were too many Security Police at that time and that he had a choice of either changing fields or receiving an Honorable Discharge with full G.I. benefits.  Curry took the latter.

After his discharge, Curry went home to share the news with his father and mother that he was going to preach.  When he told them what had happened, his parents told him how he had been given to God 17 years earlier.  He had known about the accident, and how God had delivered him, but he had not known about his mother’s dedicating him to God. Within 1 year he was married and had a child on the way.

By 1983 Curry and his wife had 3 children.  Over the years, God has done many wonderful things in the Blake’s lives.  Below are just a few of them.

Curry’s father, Johny F. Blake, has been a Police Officer, Narcotics Detective, Chief of Police, and an Internal Affairs Officer with The State of Texas Department of Corrections.

Today, Curry’s father is a saved, spirit-filled, man of God.

Curry Relates Some Family Miracles:

When my youngest daughter was 7 years old, she fell from a second story window onto a concrete patio.  When I reached her, she was dead.  I picked her up and walked around the patio saying, “In the Name of Jesus, you will live and not die.”  This continued for over five minutes.  I walked into our dining room and placed her on the floor, propping her up against a wall.  She was still dead, with no heartbeat, and no breath.

My wife ran into the room in a panic.  The Gift of Faith was in operation as I turned to her and said, “If you can’t believe, get out.”  She calmed down.  I knelt down in front of my daughter and continued saying, “In the Name of Jesus, you will live and not die.” After another 20 or 30 times of repeating this statement, my daughter suddenly expelled a strong breath, spewing blood all over my shirt.  The first words she spoke to me were “Daddy, I’m hungry.”

We took her to the hospital where doctor’s confirmed that she had been dead for at least 45 minutes.  Today, that daughter, Becky, is a born-again, Spirit-filled, missionary-minded young lady.

Curry and his family now live near Dallas, Texas, from which they spread the gospel of Jesus Christ, a gospel of help, healing, and freedom for all the oppressed.

Dr. Lester Sumrall was Curry’s Pastor, Bible School Teacher, and mentor.  Curry and his wife Dawn were in charge of Dr. Sumrall’s prayer line ministry during our time at his Church and Bible School.

The Rev. Wilford Reidt (the son-in-law of the late Dr. John G. Lake) and his wife, Gertrude (Dr. Lake’s daughter) were good friends and mentors to Bro. Curry.  Upon Rev. Reidt’s death in 1987, Curry was named as the General Overseer of the International Apostolic Council, an organization founded by the late Dr. John G Lake in 1914.  In continuing Dr. Lake’s work, we have established John G. Lake Healing Rooms throughout the U.S.

In 1997 Rev. Blake was given a copy of a manual used by Dr. Lake to train his Divine Healing Technicians (DHT’s)  (see: Who is John G. Lake?). Since that time Bro. Curry has been traveling and training Christians in how to minister healing to the sick. Thousands of DHT’s have been trained around the U.S. and the world. Over 30,000 healings per month are being reported by these average men and women of God. Every type of disease has been healed and several dead have been raised. For more info on this training, please see: “DHT Comments” on our index page.

In 1947, Gordon and Freda Lindsay co-founded “The Voice of Healing” magazine (and movement) to highlight the ministry of William Branham. Through the Lindsay’s untiring efforts the VOH became a movement that has blessed millions around the world with salvation from sin, deliverance from demons, and physical healing of literally every type of sickness and disease.

In 2001, Curry met with Mrs. Freda Lindsay (Co-founder of Christ for the Nations and her son Dennis Lindsay, President of CFNI).

Rev. Blake is currently President of The International Divine Healing Association (IDHA), which is a network of Christians involved in the divine healing ministry. Curry also heads the Divine Healing Institute (DHI), a research and development training organization specifically directed toward increasing the effectiveness of Divine Healing Technicians and members of the IDHA.

The IDHA also oversees all training and communications with John G. Lake Healing Rooms.

(Please note: The Healing Rooms in Spokane are not affiliated with John G. Lake Ministries nor do they teach Dr. Lake’s Divine Healing Technician Training material.)

If you wish to contact us for prayer, healing, or to have us speak, please write to:

John G. Lake Ministries
PO Box 742947
Dallas, TX. 75374


Well, this ministry is doing everything right to prove they are dodgy, their products can teach you how to spiritually take your city for God. But first you need to climb to the apostolic ranks in training to master spiritual warfare.

This has Latter Rain and the NAR written all over it. The man Curry Blake, his focus is completely on signs and wonders. I have found this out by his advertising on Facebook.!/pages/SOS1910-Stories-of-the-Supernatural-that-Release-the-Power-of-Jesus/37595372851?ref=nf

I find his own words condemn him. How do you feel with Curry Blake having J. G Lake’s name attached to his ministry? I’m finding that a lot of people in the Latter Rain movements are going back to the past reformers, revivalists, healers and evangelicals, etc, and are taking church father’s names and faces, using them to represent their own erroneous beliefs, ministries, advertisements, wisdom’s, etc. I find they are exploiting the church dead. How do you feel about this?


ADMIN EDIT: Further edits are due but for now:

Curry Blake with amazing grace and courage, came on to this post and kindly refuted much of the above article. As a consequence of his demonstrably Christ-like attitude, the above article will have to be completely reworked in order to present the above material and his refutation of it. I hope I speak for many who frequent this site when I say how sorry I am for any needless hurt and anguish caused by the above article.

I do not necessarily endorse all of Curry’s teaching but at the same time I recognise a true saint all the same. God Bless Curry Lake.

– Bull


186 thoughts on “Is The ‘Lake’ In Blake? (Edited, with apologies to Curry Blake).

  1. What a great conversation starter Teddy. These so-called healing rooms are also around Sydney too.

    Their headquarters are out in Dural and there is one that is becoming well known down in Manly too.

    I wonder if they believe in this that Mkayla talks about:

    “They will also teach that there are such things as generational sins or curses, this is “sins of the father” that are passed from one generation to the next. This is old testament, and not true of a believer. Repentance brings forgiveness and we are not held responsible for another person’s choices. Jesus took the curse for us on the cross. All of them. Galatians 3:13 See my article on Generational Curses.

    While it may be true there were special places of worship and of God’s visitation in the old testament, it is not the norm for a new testament believer. We are given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as part of the new covenant, which old testament believers did not have. There is no need to visit a place of healing or a faith healer. When we are taught otherwise we are being taken back to the old covenant and in doing told to ignore or forget the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when we believe these lies we are following after another gospel and have perverted the faith. Consider how many of these deceived and false teachers refer to the old testament rather than the new. They are taking Jesus out, just like unbelievers. It is ok to believe in God, just not His one and only Son.

    These healing room ministries are all about the person – the healing, the gifting, the anointing, the authority. Yes, Jesus is in there somewhere, but He is not the head because it’s only His name that is used. If He were the head there would not be such an emphasis on the person. And in this environment where there is supposed gifts like wisdom, teaching, prophecy, revelation, dreams and visions and gifts of intercession, there is also something called jealousy. Yes! Looking at others wanting what they have, coveting, not being content in their own gift. But such a thing called- contentment – is not the way of satan, who himself claimed to Eve that she could could be like God! Never content, always wanting more, wanting even demanding through crazy decrees and proclamations to speak things that are not as though they were forgetting this refers to God, not man! Going after what is out of their human reach or design to have, to know or to understand – out of God’s perfect will. Is this not the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life warned about in (1 John 2:16)?”

    Mkaila seems convincing, but I’ve often struggled with this idea of ‘Generational Sins or Curses’. I didn’t believe it – then I did. Then I didn’t, but now I definitely do – but I’ve been a bit grey about it again. Surely the gospel about Jesus is enough.

  2. I’m not sure about the curses thing – but the sin…

    A father drinks and beats his wife and son. That son becomes a father and beats his and son. And that son…

    Would that be a curse or ‘sins of the fathers’?

  3. Question: “What does the Bible say about breaking generational curses?”

    Answer: The Bible mentions “generational curses” in several places (Exodus 20:5; 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 5:9). It sounds unfair for God to punish children for the sins of their fathers. However, this is looking at it from an earthly perspective. God knows that the effects of sin are passed down from one generation to the next. When a father has a sinful lifestyle, his children are likely to have the same sinful lifestyle as well. That is why it is not unjust for God to punish sin to the third or fourth generation – because they are committing the same sins their ancestors did. But they are being punished for their own sins, not the sins of their ancestors. The Bible specifically tells us that God does not hold children accountable for the sins of their parents (Deuteronomy 24:16).

    There is a trend in the church today to try and blame every sin and problem on some sort of generational curse. This is not biblical. The cure for generational curses is salvation through Jesus Christ. When we become Christians, we are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). How can a child of God still be under God’s curse (Romans 8:1)? The cure, then, for a “generational curse” is faith in Christ and a life consecrated to Him (Romans 12:1-2).

  4. I believe God heals people at times, but I don’t understand how a doctor who wasn’t present could certify that a child was dead for 45 mins and was now alive again – that statement really gives me a problem. What would the doctor have based his opinion on? The physical signs of having been dead for 45 mins? But she was healed – so how would there have been those signs? Given that there isn’t a precedent for the doctor to compare any of her presenting signs to, this is one of the dodgier assertions I’ve seen. It would have been less dodgy if it was Blake’s word alone, but the assertion about the doctor just doesn’t make sense to me.

    Now – generational curses.

    Perhaps this should be its own topic. It keeps on cropping up over the years.

    I don’t believe in it. The reason is, because we are set free in Christ from all our sins, and to believe we suffer under a curse for another person’s sin is to go against what Jesus did for us on the Cross. We are set free, and we need to walk in that in faith.

    However, that doesn’t mean we won’t suffer the consequences of sins of our ancestors. All of us suffer the consequences of wise or unwise actions and decisions of those who preceded us.

    My father was a freemason. This is a favourite for generational curses. He left freemasonry many years back. Now, I’ve never renounced this, but I’ve never been involved in it. I’ve been to lodge family functions when I was a little kid; fundraisers and picnics etc.

    I have not noticed any generational sin effects in my life from my father’s freemasonry involvement.

    Also, I have a great-grandmother who committed suicide, and a great-uncle who was murdered. Once again, no generational curse issues that I’ve become aware of so far.

    If I had an issue and looked back to find stuff though, I’d have plenty of things to choose from.

    Come on – walk in the freedom we’ve been given! This includes not being oppressed by thinking we are burdened by generational curses. Doesn’t mean we won’t have problems, but Jesus has carried our sins, and the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, including those of our ancestors.

  5. “I’m not sure about the curses thing – but the sin…

    A father drinks and beats his wife and son. That son becomes a father and beats his and son. And that son…

    Would that be a curse or ’sins of the fathers’?” S&P

    That’s not usually what is meant when I have heard of generational sin. Usually it means there is some kind of suffering in the life of a believer, making them feel ‘cursed’ in some fashion, and this is blamed upon the sins of their forebears. Things like forebears involvement in other religions, freemasonry, the occult, or traumatic events as mentioned in my previous post.

    A sin repeating itself over the generations, as it has been taught or become part of a person’s thinking growing up, is not the same thing. Also, it can be dealt with by trained psychologists at times. It would be something to be worked through, hand in hand with Christ, but not like the ‘curses’ above which would be broken by various types of prayer or exorcism etc.

    As I’ve said, I don’t believe in generational curses.

    Of course, I could be wrong. However, as Christians, I believe we are set free from any such thing, for all the reasons given here by others.

  6. “If you die for 45 minutes – your dead and that is that compadre!”

    Hi Greg, have you heard about the (in my opinion) dubious story of Don Piper (not to be confused with John Piper), that guy has been quite successful in the more evangelical space recently, found an extensive, positive article about his story of being “90 minutes in heaven” in a christian youth magazine that my son has a subscription for.


  7. What does scripture say? Moses comes up to the mountain and meets with God for the second time to receive the law.

    Exodus 34
    6 And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,
    7 “keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”

    Is this, though, part of the Mosaic law, or God revealing his authority?

    This seems to be a general commentary, by God, of his sovereign will towards people. We talk about sovereignty, but do we miss what God is saying when he reveals his attitude towards people, whether they walk in righteousness or sin, and the consequences of sin?

    I agree that, in essence, salvation clears us of what might have been called generational curses, being redeemed form the curse of the law, but is salvation a guarantee that we’ll never sin again, or that sin n o longer has consequences? I think not. Is the offer of a free pardon a guarantee that the unsaved will avoid generational curses?

    It occurs to me that if fathers were better aware, through warnings, that there was a greater consequence to their sin than that which directly affects their own lives, and that it impacts on the lives and well-being of their own children and children’s children, for three or four generations, they would be disinclined to engage in some of the practices that produce curses in their lives and families. They might even scramble to get to Jesus and repent.

    I also don’t see how a lack of doctor’s report is conclusive evidence that a miraculous recovery didn’t take place, any more than it did. Although Dr Luke, by his testimony, ratified many of the healings in the Book of Acts, it is clear that Jesus had no medical practitioner to verify his healings and raisings either. In fact, the authorities of the day refused acknowledge that Jesus was raised!

    We have many testimonies of healings from members of our church, some are medically verified, others are not, but they are all important to the person healed.

    Would medical practitioners admit a person was miraculously healed or raised? In our experience some do, because the facts present themselves as miraculous, even against their own training, but others put it down to an emotional or psychological change, or the eventual effects of a long term medicine, or some physiotherapy.

    In one outreach, an elderly lady in her 70’s was raised out of her wheelchair, after several years in it. She tells everyone it was because she was prayed for and told to get up and walk in Jesus’ name, which she did, and has done ever since. The medical practitioners in the community admitted she was now able to walk unassisted, but put it down to some mysterious new therapy they had started, and forgot the many years they had been unable to help her! How can you trust unbelieving medical practitioners to admit God had anything to do with a person’s recovery? They tend to deal in science and natural fact, not the supernatural.

  8. “but is salvation a guarantee that we’ll never sin again, or that sin n o longer has consequences”

    Salvation is a guarantee that we remain in Jesus’ perfection before God so we can fellowship with the Father. In all circumstances we face, we can choose to take the advice of His quiet voice or not – but still remain in Salvation. That does not mean consequences will not follow if our actions affect community or result in us getting hurt by nature, out of our foolishness.

    When we adhere to Wisdom’s voice, we can often see salvation of sorts revealed before our eyes if we witness the results after the event.

  9. There is something you have all missed thus far.

    1. Generational curses are part of the Mosaic Covenant.
    Why do I say this? Because Jeremiah clearly accepted that this was so. (Jeremiah 30 or 31 … around there)

    2. In the New Covenant, that Jeremiah promised would come, we see that no longer will childrens teeth be set on edge (suffer) as a result of fathers eating sour fruit (sin). Instead, every man will be responsible for his own sins. Also, the Law will indwell us, and be written in our hearts. (A foretelling of the work of the Holy Spirit.)

    The fact that we are under a new covenant means that generational curses, which were part of the covenant with Moses, are now abolished … for believers.

    What about unbelievers? Jeremiah again indicates that in the New Covenant age, that we are not responsible for our parents sins … every man is responsible for his own sins. Every man is accountable, for every man is responsible.

    The only real question is, were generational curses ever applied to all humanity or only to God’s Chosen People?

    I come to a different conclusion to FL. I believe, as they were part of the Mosaic covenant, they were a specific curse on the Jewish people. The ultimate outworking of that would be the exile, and then the destruction of the temple, and eventually the Holocaust in the 1940’s.

    Read Deuteronomy 28.

    Only those who try to live under the mosaic covenant end up with the curses and blessings of that covenant. But you can’t have only the blessings while leaving the curses.

    So, you can try to tithe (legalistically), but be warned … your children will be under a curse if you fail to tithe.

    I thank God that I am under a New Covenant. Otherwise, I would already be under a terrible curse!

    Jesus has set us free!


  10. That’s an interesting stance, Bull. I take the attitude that under the new covenant, any generational curses are abolished for believers, as you say.

    Prior to the New Covenant though, it is interesting to ask who those curses were for.

    Also, what was their purpose? Were they a matter of children suffering the consequences of their ancestors lack of wisdom, in a very practical way (father squanders the family fortune, kids grow up in poverty for example), or were they actual ‘curses’ – nothing goes right for the kids because their parents sinned?

    Were they to make people realise that they needed to walk in relationship with God rather than ignore Him or worship other Gods, or were they punishment, without apparent purpose or compassion?

    God must have had compassion through those times, because when Jesus came, His compassion was revealed so greatly.

  11. The reason why I’m not sure on this subject is because there was a lovely Christian everyone knew who had 31 spirits or demons in him when Barry Smith took him out to the side and started casting them out of this individual privately.

    The poor kid didn’t practice anything occultish -but his father was a high-ranking Mason. He manifested them all – up to 31, spirit number 9 and 21 the most horrifying. His dad was a level 31 degree mason.

    This to me was an example of a father passing something down to his son.

  12. I do take Bull’s stance on this generally and believe that scripture is applied appropriately in this context.

  13. I believe that it only really makes sense if the generational curse operates as part of the covenant that god made with Israel through Moses.

    In other words, the children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren will suffer for your sin. God is so offended by your action that they suffer for it.

    When Jeremiah talks about it, he says “this New Covenant will not be like the one I made with your Forefathers, where the parents will eat sour fruit and the childrens teeth will be set on edge” (I am paraphrasing here!)

    So Jeremiah links generational curses with the Old Covenant and contrasts the old with the New and explicitly says that’s not in there any more!

    The flipside of the generational curse is that the blessings poured out were even more abundant!

    But, Jeremiah (I think it was him) was under a generational curse himself and knew that he would die an early death … so that’s why he started Prophesying at a very early age. (I could be wrong … it may be another Prophet that I have confused … 😦 )

    In any event, God promised to both Curse and Bless His people more than any other Nation. He would bless them when they obeyed His covenant, and curse them when they didn’t.

    The Church hasn’t replaced Israel, but been grafted in to Israel. (Romans 11 a reflection and extension of Jesus calling himself the vine, and we being the branches)
    We have been grafted in under the New Covenant. The Church is NOT the new Israel. There is now one new man in Christ Jesus.

    I want to restate that. There is One New Man in the Anointed Jesus.

    I have come to realise that since Christ means Anointed One, Messiah etc then let us examine the call to resist running when someone says “Here is the Christ” or “There He is!”.

    When considering some of the rather boastful language coming into the mainstream from the extremities of the Pentecostal movement … I have to wonder at our understanding of scripture.

    If I write it this way “Here is the one with the special(tm) anointing” or “There is the one with Healing Mantle of Branham” (sounds like D&D to me)

    Isn’t this the kind of thing we have been explicitly warned about in scripture?

    In other words, claiming a special anointing is the same thing as claiming a “Messiahship” or to be a “Christ” (an Anointed One).

    I have only just realised that myself, in writing this post.

    We’ve allowed some words to be transliterated in our Bibles instead of Translated.

    So … people who claim a special anointing effectively means people claiming to be a “Christ”.

    You may have heard it here first!


  14. Very well put Bull!
    It’s rare to meet a Christian who has a good grasp on OT theology. I agree with you! I agree with you! And I agree with you!

    I could not have said what you have said any better.

    Let me wave my pentecostal hand in your general direction and shout. “AMEN!”

  15. Bull,
    ‘claiming a special anointing is the same thing as claiming a “Messiahship” or to be a “Christ”’

    I guess people sometimes speak like this, but normally in Pentecostal or Charismatic circles, where it is known that the anointing is from God, the understanding is that the anointing is always attributable to him, without exception.

    If we have to qualify everything we say to assist Evangelicals to get past their fears every time we speak, we’d end up being so long winded and extensive with our messages that we’d never get to the point.

    I went through a phase of qualifying almost every point for the sake of the questioning evangelicals who always turned up in our meetings, for a while, until my wonderful wife, always my most valued critic, pointing out the fact that it took to long for me to get to thrust of the message, and sometimes I preached an extended introduction, because I was becoming so fastidious and careful in making sure that everyone in the room clearly understood where I was coming from, recapping, and contextualising where it really wasn’t necessary, especially for new-comers, rather than allowing them to come to the point in their own minds and being gracious enough to understand that we shouldn’t have to qualify every point to bring them up to speed. As she reminded me, it also robbed regular and receptive members of a message which productively took us on from the previous messages. I repented!

    Related to this, when critics listen to messages by various speakers without getting into the flow of a series, or of consecutive meetings, they can take the entire thrust of the message out of context, or level the accusation that certain items were left out, when in fact, the general congregation understood perfectly where the speaker was coming from, having been diligently present in previous meetings and having the context already before them through continuity.

    So when a Pentecostal talks of the anointing being strong on a minister, or reminiscent of the anointing on someone else, they are not taking anything away from the Holy Spirit, or from God, or claiming to be the Christ, or taking the glory to themselves. Mostly they are giving a Pentecostal shorthand for giving God the glory without having to qualify exactly why every time they speak, even for the sake of the critics or the curious.

  16. stop using jargon then!

    If you found you had tell people what you meant before you said it … 😦

    Besides, your explanation is too easy.

    When you hear the ‘big names’ boasting about their own special personal anointing for “financial breakthrough” or for “healing revival” … and you know it’s all about “kingdom now!” and Manifest Sons of God stuff, where the true believers will become perfected sons of God, or in other words Christ made perfectly manifest without the return of Jesus … you know they are talking about themselves as Christ. And so, they are setting the ground for this by claiming a special anointing. You all just have an ordinary anointing but I’ve got a special one.

    I am specially gifted, but you are just an ordinary Christian. Wouldn’t you like to be a special Christian like me? I can impart to you this special anointing … and soon we will become perfect, like Jesus, because we will have the special “Christ” anointing.

    Understand? Here we are, listening to all the jargon, without explanation of what it means, and so we accept it at face value. In a few years you change what you think the jargon means without telling anyone. So, for those in the know, you change christianity completely and subvert it from the worship of Jesus to the worship of the “New Breed”.


    You’ve joined the NAR.

    Welcome to Gehenna.

  17. Can we leave the NAR out of it for a while? I don’t see how Blake could be a one. Maybe he is, but who really caress. I’ve never heard of him, actually, until now. I’m just interested in the way the anointing operates.

    Your NAR needle is stuck. As it is with the people we had to qualify everything we said to. Stuck. Immovable objects. Never growing. Always critical.

    I don’t use jargon in the pulpit. English is a second language for a large number of our congregants, and the people I minister to.

    What I mean is this: if you don’t use the word ‘cross’ or ‘repent’ in every message the old evangelical critic will say you haven’t preached the gospel. It’s pathetic. It’s religious. It’s bondage.

    If you don’t explain every concept in clear detail, dotting the ‘i’s’ and crossing the ‘t’s’, the critics will be on the phone to some unfortunate sheep the next week for a moan. We don’t pay them any attention any more. They can’t be pleased, whatever you do.

    As I said my wife pointed it out to me and it was over, and it wasn’t anything to do with jargon. And we’re not man-pleasers. It was making sure even the densest of critics understood what was happening. Maybe they’d actually grasp something outside their small-mindedness. I mean that in the nicest way!

    We do preach Christ crucified, but we don’t have to qualify this constantly. It’s a known part of our ministry. How often have I read in parallel blogs that the cross wasn’t preached, therefore it’s a cult, or something similar!

    We preach repentance, but we don’t have to say the word every other sentence, or explain the concept every time we preach, to help the religious breath a sigh of relief, that now the gospel is finally preached. They can relax. They’ve been fed their self-righteous fodder for the week. And completely missed the entire point of what’s actually been said. Lost out on the real meal.

    And you mustn’t preach topical messages. They’re anathema! Except the entire New Testament is either topical or prophetic. How could it not be! Do you think, perhaps, the Old Testament was handed down from God topically?

    And, on thread, don’t claim to be anointed without fervently qualifying that it is of God. Or that the anointing can be imparted, by the message, or by the laying on of hands. I mean, that would be to much for the jargon hunters.

    And watch out if people fall under the anointing. That must be magic, or witch-craft, or mass hypnotism. Or martial arts!

    I once commented on a You Tube critic’s blog, a Baptist Pastor, after watching him give a ‘demonstration’ of how the Pentecostals ‘slap’ people into a stupor! He had a ‘volunteer’, some poor stooge from his adjoining ‘martial arts’ school, I kid you not, receive a martial arts ‘slap’ to the head which floored the poor guy, and his breathing stopped, so they had a team on hand to revive him quickly. I told him he should be charged for assault. He totally believes this is what we do when we lay hands on people and they fall under the power! Delusion in the ranks!

    Can you tell me what happens when a minister of God is compelled by the Holy Spirit to lay hands on another person, or persons? Is there an anointing present or not?

  18. What a load of crock Facelift! When people often talk about the ‘anointing’, they actually don’t know what they are talking about.

    It’s like the ‘F’ word: it takes on too many meanings and suggestions for it to actually have a proper meaning – that is until you put your head down and study it in relation to the bible.

    Go to C3 and you got students wanting to hang out with leaders to gain mantles or anointing’s if they work in their ministries.

    If you’re a worship leader, you too carry an anointing everyone wants. Go to Phil’s place, people grab at the air in his office and stroke his keyboards so they may receive his anointing.

    People or upcoming minister make jokes about touching the pulpit and receiving Phil’s anointing or another hotshot’s anointing like TD Jakes or another celebrity preachers. Unfortunately they actually believe it as they rub the frame of the pulpit or like to place their hands all over it anyway. It’s not just C3, Hillsong does it too. Bull is right with the NAR, but it’s also big in other pentecostal and charismatic churches around here too. I’ve visited most of them.

    I found this made-up ‘anointing’ doctrine, at it’s core, idolatry. Unfortunately, more Christian’s worship ‘it’, spending time to obtain ‘it’ by serving, learning, being obedient to leaders…

    Touching keyboards? Laying hands on the pulpit to receive a pastors anointing? Serving a minister so the anointing will rub off? Giving money so the anointing can be upon you?

    What an offense to God! This is the equivalent of going into Diagon Alley, buying a magic wand and a mantle of invisibility, going to Hogwarts and hanging out with certain witches as underling or friend to gain certain magics and powers from them.

    I’ve heard so many teaching’s on the Spirit, hijacked by talk on all this anointing rubbish – that I can only conclude that this man-made anointing doctrine is a doctrine of demons. Let me explain why:

    The continual application of this function now seemingly belittles or limits the role of the Holy Spirit in meetings. In only seeing the Spirit as a enigmatic substance or power (which the church do so well to brand Him as), we fail to see Him as a person of the trinity. He makes us see, feel and hear from Jesus! He brings everything about Jesus and the Father to us so we may exalt Jesus and the Father. The Holy Spirit reveals how truly in Christ we are. The Holy Spirit assures us how deep we are in the Father’s love. When we forget, He reminds us. When we’re tempted, He prompts us. We actually feel and become more accountable when we start wrapping our head around that we actually have the ghost of God haunting us, loving us and forever present with us. The mystical, enigmatic force and power of the ‘anointing’ sounds like something we wield and abuse, rather a person of the Godhead we get to know.

    I think it’s because of this dangerous focus of the ‘anointing’ being seen as a power and not a person we have some ministries treating the Holy Spirit as an abusive substance, an ‘it’, rather than an accountable friend.

    I’ve erased the pente word ‘that-should-not-be-named’ from my diction, lest any man should stumble. 😉

  19. Faithlift: “Can you tell me what happens when a minister of God is compelled by the Holy Spirit to lay hands on another person, or persons? Is there an anointing present or not?”

    The anointing is NOT present unless that person just then came to Jesus. But the Spirit is. Dare I even say Spirit. The Spirit wishes to see the Son glorified and for good reason!

    The anointing is not present but Jesus is.

  20. s&p,
    ‘What a load of crock Facelift’

    Don’t be so rude! What I said had substance, and I stand by it.

    And I understand what I’m talking about, as do most of the people I hang out with, so I don’t know who you are watching, but it isn’t any of the C3 crowd I know.

    And never compare the anointing with the ‘f’ word in my close proximity, s&p. I may be compelled to forgive you for your blasphemy. 🙂

    Goodness, you’ve dropped a key New Testament Christian word because you’re afraid you might use it inappropriately. I think that’s religion gone to seed.

    You never mentioned your hang-up with people touching ‘anointed’ stuff before on this post, s&p, so how could I know that is what you are thinking of?

    The anointing is a holy thing. It is of God. It is precious. It is a gift. It is not to be taken lightly, or abused. It’s the outpoured Oil of the Holy Spirit. It’s the unction. It’s rubbing up to the Presence of God and receiving of his Person, his Substance.

    Those people you criticise for coveting the anointing should be encouraged and gently corrected, not cursed from your breath. They hunger for the things of God. All they need is careful direction, not your wrath. I’d take them on any day. They will make great ministers of God if and when they are steered in the right direction, especially in this world where the anointing is so ignored by so many.

    Comparing a Bible School student to a Hogwart witch is diabolical.

    When I was a student I probably thought along similar lines about the anointing for a while. It comes out of respect for those ministers which teach and train you, to an extent. There is nothing amiss with this. I wanted what they had. It’s healthy, as long as it it’s not abused.

    I would have been similar in thinking I could be like them, just as Elisha was with Elijah It is one of the things which compels us to enter ministry, in fact, part of discipleship, where we honour those who teach us, maybe more than we should, then, as i saw more in the Word, I grew out of it, but the main thing I remember about it was the zeal for the things of the Spirit, which is completely normal for a developing Spirit-filled disciple, especially a new believer, thirsty for the things of God.

    So don’t knock it, direct it. Point it in the right direction. Explain that the anointing is of the Holy Spirit, not of the keyboard!

    But there have been times, scripturally, when God has used objects to transfer the anointing.

  21. ‘The anointing is not present but Jesus is’

    Well, no!

    Jesus is the Christ, the Anointed One. When he is present the anointing is. He is the Anointed. We are the Body of the Anointed, therefore the anointing is always present. He has released it to his Body for his purposes.

    ‘You have an anointing from the Holy One’.

    ‘Chrisma’, ‘anything smeared on, ungent, ointment’, with the idea of ‘chrio’, ‘to anoint’, through contact, or rubbing, ‘consecration into an office’, ‘enduing Christians with the gifts of the Holy Spirit’, (Strongs).

    aleipho – is the mundane and common word for anoint
    chrio – is the sacred and religious word for anoint

    It’s what we do about the anointing that counts.

  22. 2 Corinthians 1
    20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
    21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
    22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

    ‘The anointing which you have received from Him abides in you’

  23. Alright … hang on for just one second.

    My primary complaint was about how claims to have a “special Anointing” were being used to big someone up. A boast. ‘Hey, check this out, I have a “special Healing Revival anointing” that really impresses young interns.’

    My key point is that once you start talking about someone having a special anointing, you are comparing that person to Jesus who was THE Anointed One.

    I do believe that was only point I was making. I wasn’t really asking if we have been anointed or not, or if the idea that ordinary believers have all been anointed by the Holy Spirit was an error or not.

    I was only talking about goons who abuse scripture to talk themselves up, along with how we really don’t understand anything because we have become dumbed down, biblical illiterates through pathetic exegetical preaching.

    Now then FL. If you want to condemn me as being “religious” you may do so. I don’t care. You may call be spiritually dead, as you have implied. You’d be wrong about that but then no-one is ever 100% correct, except God Himself so don’t feel bad.

    The only thing I was commenting on was how the word Anointing gets thrown around like we all know what this is supposed to mean, and is used in a different way, and ends up describing someone’s super-spiritual exalted state.

    No-one was accusing FL of anything, but his response to this has been quite surprising. Perhaps this kind of emphasis on special anointing is currently orthodox teaching in C3? (emphasis on Phil’s special anointing even)

    Needle being stuck on the NAR? You better believe it. I will keep warning about those apostates until they have me murdered in the prophesied civil war in the church where Rick Joyner and all his chums quite literally want to see those people, who are genuinely evangelical and hold to the truths of scripture, murdered so that the New Breed can fully take over the church.

    They want to kill people like me. A bible believing Christian is less than human to those fellas. But, don’t take my word for anything. Just read what they have said for themselves. It’ll really open your eyes.

    Check out the Elijah List. Google New Breed etc.

    There is no room for the return of Jesus in their hopes for the future. It’s all New Breed and Manifest Sons of God and Joel’s Army.

    Now, I am going to go and do something far better than get depressed about the sleepwalking church.

    I’m going to a Bible study, cos I am a fundamentalist … so there!


  24. Going back to the issue about generational curses.

    Can’t respond completely, but now for some plain speak from the OT – Eze 18 to be rpecise.

    Have a good day one and all.

    1 Then another message came to me from the Lord: 2 “Why do you quote this proverb concerning the land of Israel: ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children’s mouths pucker at the taste’? 3 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, you will not quote this proverb anymore in Israel. 4 For all people are mine to judge—both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die.

    5 “Suppose a certain man is righteous and does what is just and right. 6 He does not feast in the mountains before Israel’s idols[a] or worship them. He does not commit adultery or have intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period. 7 He is a merciful creditor, not keeping the items given as security by poor debtors. He does not rob the poor but instead gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. 8 He grants loans without interest, stays away from injustice, is honest and fair when judging others, 9 and faithfully obeys my decrees and regulations. Anyone who does these things is just and will surely live, says the Sovereign Lord.

    10 “But suppose that man has a son who grows up to be a robber or murderer and refuses to do what is right. 11 And that son does all the evil things his father would never do—he worships idols on the mountains, commits adultery, 12 oppresses the poor and helpless, steals from debtors by refusing to let them redeem their security, worships idols, commits detestable sins, 13 and lends money at excessive interest. Should such a sinful person live? No! He must die and must take full blame.

    14 “But suppose that sinful son, in turn, has a son who sees his father’s wickedness and decides against that kind of life. 15 This son refuses to worship idols on the mountains and does not commit adultery. 16 He does not exploit the poor, but instead is fair to debtors and does not rob them. He gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. 17 He helps the poor, does not lend money at interest, and obeys all my regulations and decrees. Such a person will not die because of his father’s sins; he will surely live. 18 But the father will die for his many sins—for being cruel, robbing people, and doing what was clearly wrong among his people.

    19 “‘What?’ you ask. ‘Doesn’t the child pay for the parent’s sins?’ No! For if the child does what is just and right and keeps my decrees, that child will surely live. 20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. 21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. 22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.

    23 “Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign Lord. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live. 24 However, if righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things and act like other sinners, should they be allowed to live? No, of course not! All their righteous acts will be forgotten, and they will die for their sins.

    25 “Yet you say, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right!’ Listen to me, O people of Israel. Am I the one not doing what’s right, or is it you? 26 When righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things, they will die for it. Yes, they will die because of their sinful deeds. 27 And if wicked people turn from their wickedness, obey the law, and do what is just and right, they will save their lives. 28 They will live because they thought it over and decided to turn from their sins. Such people will not die. 29 And yet the people of Israel keep saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right!’ O people of Israel, it is you who are not doing what’s right, not I.

    30 “Therefore, I will judge each of you, O people of Israel, according to your actions, says the Sovereign Lord. Repent, and turn from your sins. Don’t let them destroy you! 31 Put all your rebellion behind you, and find yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O people of Israel? 32 I don’t want you to die, says the Sovereign Lord. Turn back and live!

  25. Good on you, Bull! Stick to your guns! I’m glad to hear you’re a fellow fundamentalist. 🙂 Some of the things you responded to were in reference to s&p’s comments that the anointing was only relevant to the new birth.

    I definitely don’t think you’re dead. Far from it.

    However, I do happen to think your needle is stuck, dear brother, and that it colours your world to hear the same tune going off in your head. I think it weakens your argument to focus on relatively bit players, when there are bigger controversies and strongholds to be pulled down, but, as you say, that’s just my opinion.

    I have ministry friends who are very compelled by NAR. They do not seem to be that warped. Nor are they dominionists in the terms you suggest. They are effective in their different fields of ministry.

    They are mostly interested in seeing out God’s purposes for the end times, to be part of the Church which ushers in the soon Coming King. They see scripture speaks of a rapture and a second coming, a thousand year reign of Christ, and look for the restoration of things. They look at what 1700 years of corrupt theology has done, and seek a reformation of God’s true Church, built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus being the Chief Cornerstone. They search for ways to restore the understanding of how the Holy Spirit truly leads the Church, and how he functions amongst Christ’s Body.

    I think you’re actually safe from NAR people, and that they will not be responsible for putting you up against a wall to shoot you. Traditionally the religionists who martyred Christians came from a single source. My NAR inspired friends are more likely to overwhelmingly love-smother you, than martyr you! Perhaps you should research this again. It wasn’t Pentecostals who persecuted the Christians! Historically, it was the Spirit-filled Church which was targeted. Think ‘five hills’. Think celibate priesthood, ‘not permitted to marry’. The original apostate church is not finished, just reforming, working on its PR. BUt it’s basic understanding of its role in the world hasn’t changed.

    Then again, the most immediate religious danger is from militants who despise Israel and Christians.

    It is those who despise the anointing who are most likely to despise the Anointed.

  26. A trip around Blake’s website actually answers the questions about the anointing controversy.

    ‘Do We Claim John Lake’s Anointing?

    Neither Brother Curry nor anyone associated with John G. Lake Ministries would ever claim John Lake’s anointing.

    Even John Lake did not have a “John G. Lake anointing”. Dr. Lake believed the Bible and did what it said to do. When he did he got the results the Bible promises. He then taught the truth of the Bible to others.

    There is only one anointing, and that is the person of the Holy Spirit indwelling a Christian.

    Every Christian is anointed (1 John 2:27), they just need to learn how to believe God and let the anointing set the captives free.

    Only Jesus is “special’, everyone else can only be obedient.’

  27. Yes, great passage, MN. Thanks for putting that up.

    Re ‘anointing’ – no one here seems to disagree that we all have the Holy Spirit, and as FL said, “There is only one anointing, and that is the person of the Holy Spirit indwelling a Christian.”

    So I think the other thread is attempting to address the other issue, of whether people claiming a ‘special’ anointing are in effect claiming to be a ‘Christ’.

  28. Thanks MN.

    Isn’t it interesting that Ezekiel, in exile in Babylon got the same message that Jeremiah got while still in Jerusalem?

    They were contemporary but separated by hundreds of miles and spoke to two separate constituencies.

    It is also interesting that Ezekiel is the only person who calls himself Son of Man, besides Jesus Himself.


  29. RP,
    ‘Re ‘anointing’ – no one here seems to disagree that we all have the Holy Spirit, and as FL said, “There is only one anointing, and that is the person of the Holy Spirit indwelling a Christian.”’

    In fact, that was a quote from Curry’s site. He wrote himself that neither he nor Lake claimed a ‘Lake anointing’, but in fact the anointing is of Christ, and is the Holy Spirit in our lives.

    It rather puts paid to the argument that he claimed the anointing was of Lake, really.

  30. Well, that’s good. But I don’t think that means he wasn’t also claiming that the anointing was ‘of Lake’. The implication seems to be that the ‘mantle’ passed from Lake to Curry. I’m making no judgement calls here by the way – just saying it as it came across to me above. I don’t actually have time to read up on Curry, and he’s not personally relevant to me or anyone I know, so I will pass on that right now.

  31. Hi. Thanks Teddy for the mention of my article/blog. I came out of the healing room ministry and it is one to be avoided at all costs. I’m glad to see you all seem to know the truth, who is anointed – JESUS! And you can rest assured, if you are saved you are not subject to a generational curse, or any curse for that matter!

    The association between John G Lake and Cal Pierce – International Assoc of Healing Rooms, Spokane WA

    Rev. Cal Pierce, Director

    Cal Pierce and his wife Michelle grew up in Redding, California where they were members of Bethel Assembly of God Church. Cal served at Bethel as an elder and board member. He says he was “the most bored board member the church had.” For 25 years he was stuck in a form of Christianity that denied God’s power. In June, 1996 during a service where God moved powerfully, Cal was changed by the power of God. Cal’s life has been changed ever since.

    Cal, a Real Estate Developer, felt God draw he and his wife, Michelle, north to Washington State in November 1997. “We sold everything, packed up our furniture and moved to Spokane having never been there before. We were not sure exactly what God wanted us to do, so we continued to seek his direction for ministry.”

    Having studied the revivals, Cal had read about John G. Lake’s ministry in Spokane. Cal visited Lake’s grave site once each month for over one year to pray.

    “On February 28, 1999 I started a 40 day fast. I went to Lake’s grave site to pray when I heard God say, ‘There is a time to pray, and a time to move.’ There was no doubt that God wanted us to re-dig the generational wells of healing in Spokane.” Cal called in intercessors and began training up healing teams. On July 22, 1999 the Spokane Healing Rooms of John G. Lake were re-opened in the same location they were 80 years ago.

    You gotta watch these guys who go to the gravesites of passed “ministers” asking for their mantle or anointing! This is a practice forbidden in the bible, yet, Cal Pierce did it, John Crowder did the same at the grave of John Alexander Dowie and Benny Hinn at Kathryn Kuhlman’s. It’s a bad idea.

    Blessings all. Pop in and say Hi sometime!

  32. Thanks Mkayla! I think we’ve done an article on John Crowder laying his hands on graves and other ministers doing similar things like Benny Hinn and even (I’m sure he has done so) Rick Joyner and Bob Jones.

  33. Hmm… So it’s Cal Pierce verses Curry Blake!
    Who has the true John G Lake’s anointing?

  34. Do not confuse Curry with the healing rooms with Cal Pierce. I have heard many of Blake’s teachings. He has said over and over he has no special annointing. He has said over and over he does not have any mantle from Lake. Other people say that about him (like yourselves). He denies it and only preaches Jesus and His command to lay hands on the sick and see them recover. Curry is definitely not part of the Pierce, Johnson revival group. He has the same qualms and speaks against them as many of you do. The only reason he even uses JGLM name is because the Lake family begged him to do so because he was the only one coming to them to learn about what Lake taught. The family complained about The Pierce group coming to them constantly trying to figure out how to get Lakes annointing. Curry was the only one who never asked that and said he could care less about Lakes annointing and that he only wanted one mans annointing Jesus’. The name of the ministry was given as a means of protection for the family and the legacy and teachings of Lake. Curry warns to stay away from Pierce and that group and warns about they’re graving laying that the Bible prohibits that and they are getting devils when they do that. Many seem to be ignorant of his teachings. They are very simple. No excuses, nothing special, just believe and obey the command to lay hands. Keep doing it until they are healed. The teaching of JGLM and Cals healing rooms are completley different.

  35. End Times Prophetic quoted this now unobtainable source:

    “There has been a great deal of renewed interest in John G Lake in recent years, particularly in the Northwest. Curry Blake operates Lake’s official on-line ministry and claims to be the fulfillment of a prophecy supposedly given to Lake about someone to come and renew Lake’s ministry. He also operates healing rooms similar to Lake’s. (It should be noted that the concept of healing rooms is completely different from the ministry of Jesus who healed instantly with a command or a touch. Jesus never established rooms for people to receive prayer day after day. These were actually the brainchild of Alexander Dowie who was Lake’s mentor.) Cal Pierce claims that he is redigging the wells of John Lake to recover his spiritual inheritance. Roberts Liardon includes a chapter on Lake in his book, “God’s Generals”. And one of the most prominent figures in the prophetic movement, Mike Bickle, says that John G. Lake has influened him “more than any man other than Jesus.” This is certainly high praise even if the statement is hyperbole. The Complete Works of John G. Lake are available for purchase at IHOP. (I got my copy at a used book store.) As with Branham, it is evident that many who reference Lake have never actually read him nor have they taken even a cursory look at his history beyond the claims of the miraculous…”

  36. It looks like you verified some of what I said for yourself with the please note quote. The other stuff I cannot verify in the form of written material but I have the DVD’s where he says everything I mentioned so it is on record.
    The endtimes piece. The first few sentences are about Curry. A lot of information is half truths or not the whole story. It is not online ministry anymore. Based out of Denver. It just now started healing rooms a couple months ago. He would agree with the what End Times wrote. He preaches that he doesn’t like healing rooms and that is not the way Jesus did it and teaches people to go to the streets and go to them. The logical question is why does he have them. I guess why not. One more tool, doesn’t hurt. As far as the prophesy goes he knew nothing about the prophecy. Lake’s family told him about the prophecy after months of praying if the fulfillment was Curry. They told Blake God told them he was the person in the prophecy and urged him to take the ministry. He simply said ok. That is a big difference then him claiming hey its me its me.
    ANyway, all this is on his DHT dvd’s. The whole first dvd goes into the background and history.

  37. Oh, as far as what he preaches about annointings. He gives a ten hour teaching on it cause the misuse of it in pentecostal circles is so great. Basically he preaches if you are a christian you are annointed and have the annointing. He preaches that the only special annointing ever mentioned in the NT is the baptism of Holy Ghost. He says that so called getting annointing from someone when around them is nothing more than your faith is being built up when you are around them or you are stirring up the gift within or many other logical scripturally sound explanations.

  38. I stumbled upon this site cause of the title lake in Blake seemed funny since he has publicly spoke against it. It seems wierd that the author doesn’t seem to know anything about Blake or the ministry other than what he could find on the website or facebook yet feels compelled to speak against it. I guess the author needed something new to bash. Same with the other people posting. Say something and then “oh let me go look at his website real quick”. A little bizarre. If you don’t know about the ministry first hand you shouldn’t make assumptions. I think the author and others would find they like and agree with JGLM. One of the things I like is that he refuses to have catchers claiming if God knocks you down he won’t let you get hurt. Keeps fakers in check. Very down to earth ministry not all wierd and wispy yet still believes in power.

  39. I like what you say about him Steve. Very much so.

    But still looking at the materials he promotes, he still seems to promote NAR and Dominion theology teachings. However, he seems genuine and sincere despite the products he is selling.

  40. The questions I pose were up to speculation. I’m a bit more comfortable now hearing how he obtained Lake’s ministry.

  41. specks and planks,
    What kind of info did you need?

    Yes, Crowder was at Dowie’s grave too. Yuck. And it is a good idea to question anyone with an NAR or dominionist belief.
    Steve, not everyone comments on blogs to knock people around. Some of us have real first hand knowledge and we use that to help others find the truth.

  42. Well you left the Healing Rooms you were at for a reason. Generally people leave for a good reason. I was wondering if you could tell us what their doctrines were and who they were/want to be associated with.

    One thing that I found disturbing with Cal Pierce’s promotional piece, was him associating himself with receiving something of John G Lake at Lake’s gravesite, then using that to add to his credentials that he somehow has Lake’s ministry.

    There is also Latter Rain/NAR talk just towards the end of his blurb too. I think Cal Pierces ministry is also in Australia, known as Healing Rooms Australia. The person running that one is Frank Elliot.

    He seems quite reasonable. There may be no spiritual tie or connection to Pierce to what’s happening in Australia. But I am concerned there may be NAR material pumped through these rooms, there doctrines and (maybe – I’m not sure about this), some unclean spirits.

    I say this due to my personal experience with Bentley’s ministry down here in Oz. I was spiritually abused my something when one of FreshFire ministries ministers laid their hands on me.

    I would like to know of your experience in the Healing Rooms from where you are so we can find out what these places may be like in Australia.

  43. I was just making sure you weren’t connecting JGLM with Cal and company. You will find JGLM does not fit in with any movement doctrine or theology. You might not agree with the all the teaching but you won’t find any new age spiritualist wierdness that is so typical of other healing ministries.
    Curry has had many run ins with Pierce and confronted him many times about his lies and misrepresenting John Lakes name. Curry warned Pierce he would take him to court if he used John Lakes name in any of his ministry name. He also confronted about Pierce about him lying about the building they were doing healing rooms in at Spokane. They were advertisinng it was the same building and room as the original John Lake had used himself. Even though they knew this not to be the case. Pierce admitted to Curry it wasn’t and knew but didn’t seem to care. The story goes Curry proclaimed God would not allow the building to stand and two weeks later an earth quake hit and it fell down. Blake claims many like mkayla have come out of those healing rooms warning of its dangers. Apparently they go by the anything type of healing teaching out there whether new age or not goes so long as they can get healing. I am sure she can give examples.
    Lastly, Curry says when people tell him he has JG’s annointing. ” Why would I want a mans annointing. I don’t want his annointing or mantle. WHy would I when I can go straight to the source”

  44. s&p,
    In view of the fact that you keep on coming up with NAR, and this seems to have become the benchmark for whether or not, in your view, a group is a cult or not, I have to say, I’d like to know, in more detail, what you your actual objections are.

    I don’t think you have defined anywhere, as a post, your objections to the New Apostolic Reformation. My understanding of them is that they are an alliance with a common view in a number of areas of how God is restoring the Church in these times.

    I understand that there are a few ‘discernment’ ministries who have objections, but most of them also have objections about the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. I don;t think they are places to go for our information, as many cross-reference one another and repeat the errors of their peers. Most approach their discernment from the wrong premise and come to the wrong conclusion as a result. ‘Endtimepropheticwords’ is a classic example of this.

    I have begun a study of New Apostolic Reformation, focusing on the views of C Peter Wagner, and then I’ll look at Chuck Pierce. I’ve read Wagner’s material in the past, and, whilst I don’t agree with all his conclusions, I think he has observed some aspects of what is taking place in the Church very well, and makes some good points.

    So far, my understanding of Wagner’s involvement has been confirmed.

    The main thrust of Wagner’s work involves the study of the extraordinary growth during the 20th century, up to now, of certain ministries, and the pattern which emerged from his observations, which he calls a movement, but not one which had any specific human oversight, rather a number of independent surges in church growth in different areas of the world, which had similar growth patters and concepts. This he, quite reasonably, considers a move of God.

    The main points of this extraordinary growth include:

    Recognition of the restoration of five-fold ministry oversight
    Restoration of the gifts and fruit of the Spirit
    All member ministry
    Diminishing of traditional denominational hierarchies
    Self resourcing and administrating autonomous local churches
    Voluntary acceptance of pastoral oversight
    Recognition of Apostolic oversight of groups of local churches
    Increased non-denominational cross-denominational networking of churches and ministries
    Increased levels of worship
    Increased levels of prayer

    There are many other attributes which Wagner observed, but nowhere has he ever claimed to be the instigator or oversight of a movement. Rather, he is a reporter of a phenomenon which was already well established before he became interested or involved.

    Chuck Pierce is best known for intercession strategies, and I suspect his involvement is directly associated with prayer.

  45. Specks,

    If you follow the link I posted at my comment above it will take you to Cal Pierce’s website – IAHR. They have hundreds of these healing rooms all over the world. It is very possible the one you spoke of is joined with them or as they put it, comes under their “covering”. gag. You can see if this person is with them or not from the site.

    Doctrine – where do I start. It’s all word of faith which teaches we as believers have the same power and anointing of Christ, that our words have power and we can speak things into existence, or as some word it “prophesy”. They believe it is God’s will that everyone be healed and I mean everyone. If not, then there is a reason such as unconfessed sin, generational curse, word curse, unwillingness to “receive” healing or lack of understanding HOW to; failure to pray the right scriptures enough or failure in finding the right person with the correct prayer methods. See? This list is quite long and they will take a person through it to uncover the “roots” of the illness. Take someone thru this and watch them become entangled in the bondage it leads to. They also believe that healing can be incremental and the person may need to come back to receive a greater measure of healing. None of this matches with the word of God, not one bit of it!

    Pierce, and other word of faith-ers believe that somewhere along the way Christians forgot their true calling and purpose and one day we will achieve that place of power and authority. When that day comes hospitals will empty out and people will be healed on the streets. This is where marketplace evangelism comes in to play. They go out to different businesses, Walmarts and even bars and pray for people to be healed. This is also a big area for “personal prophecy” and a way to contaminate others with these demons.

    Most of the “healing” is out of hype, excitement and emotionalism. I saw only one person actually healed in the 3 years I was involved in IAHR. We had a few who were possessed and could not get them free. The thought behind this is that is also is incremental as people can have many areas affected and it takes time. But this is not deliverance the way Jesus did it. There is always an excuse as to why they cannot do what they claim. Pride is a big factor for most of them.

    If you go to their store you will see all the false teachers they align with. Bill Johnson is one – a good friend of Cal’s and the last I heard he was on the IAHR board. Thier teachings and doctrines are the same.

    In this you will find Kingdom now or dominionism which teaches that it is up to the church to take over the world, affecting in through what is called the 7 mountains or spheres of influence – think – C Peter Wagner, Chuck Pierce, etc. this is what will lead to the great revival. Once this is done, Jesus CAN (yes, can) return to earth, but not until the church does this work. There are some who believe believers will actually become Christ, and are known as the Manifest Sons of God – Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Bob Jones, Patricia King to name a few. (I have a video of Jones making this statement, or as he calls it – prophecy.)

    Basically, if they are on tv, if they hold these great conferences and speak of the Holy Spirit using buzz words that sound more new agey than Christian they should be avoided.

    There is sooo much I could say here. Come to my blog and read some, esp the catagory for “Refuting IAHR” in which I took some of their doctrines and compared them with the bible. The truth is what convinced me to leave, even before I had it down on paper. Most every one I speak of on my blog has either a connection with the healing rooms or word of faith. It all comes back together – twisted, deceptive, dangerous. And yes, there are some very unclean spirits, some very powerful and deceptive demons actually.

    The sad part is, most of these people believe they are hearing from God and following His call, doing what is right. I was one of them, and had been their “intercessor” for about a year, and Assoc. Director for the last 6 months or so. I took my leadership seriously and went to the Lord for teaching. This is how I began to see the problems.

    It is hard to show people involved in these ministries the truth and I am convinced they can only see the truth through the power of the Holy Spirit. When I came out, it was like a nightmare and it took some doing. I had no one near to help me. I had other blogs who taught the truth and of course I had the Lord to guide and protect me. There were times I thought I would die, but I didn’t. I don’t know why it was so hard, but it was. This is why I speak against it and warn others the way I do.

    On a personal note, if you haven’t done so already, renounce anything you recived from Fresh Fire.

    May the Lord give you wisdom in these areas.
    Blessings and thank you for your pursuit and love of the truth.

  46. Faithlift, you said –
    >>I understand that there are a few ‘discernment’ ministries who have objections, but most of them also have objections about the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. I don;t think they are places to go for our information, as many cross-reference one another and repeat the errors of their peers. Most approach their discernment from the wrong premise and come to the wrong conclusion as a result. ‘Endtimepropheticwords’ is a classic example of this.<<

    I can assure you that many of us have and do our own research which involves comparing the word with the teachings of the NAR and other ministries. Mine comes from personal experience. There are other sites out there that do the same, on a much deeper level than I, having had much more experience and teaching. Lighthouse Trails, Moriel, Critical Issues Commentary are a few of them.

    We are not interested in parroting each other. We are interested in finding the truth and separating from these heretical teachings that spread throughout Christianity even as we speak.

  47. I could add a few more …

    DITC is a great site that collects a lot of articles and links.

    Regarding Moriel, Jacob Prasch is a terrific minister. He is also a pentecostal … and he is Jewish too. This means he is very clear on how the Old testament and New Testament fit together. In other words, he avoids doing what biblicly illiterate church leaders in the US do: put Christians back under the Law of Moses. (c.f. Joel Osteen bringing back the Kosher food laws for his Mega-Church. Search for it on YouTube. He condemns himself from his own mouth.)

    Right then … starting to get a little wound up now. Time for coffee. Oh, one other thing. When it all started, the NAR was very much as FaceLift describes it. However, it is now the international coalition of Apostles (all self appointed of course) ICA who pronounce so-called apostolic decrees which are meant to be new rules and regulations that are binding on all believers. This movement is, even now, persecuting those who do not accept the ‘New Apostles(tm)’. They are putting themselves on an equal footing with the twelve disciples. They are putting themselves above Paul and John and Peter.

    This makes me feel very angry.

    So I am going to drink a very large amount of coffee now. 😦


  48. Yes, it is the development which Bull describes which just doesn’t make any sense to me. Basically self-appointed apostles making new interpretations of scripture or coming up with new prophetic words, which somehow believers are supposed to accept just because of WHO they come from. They definitely appear to put themselves on almost the same footing as the NT apostles. This continues even if their prophetic announcements do not come to pass. The way some of them offer apostolic covering for churches that aren’t yet aligned to an ‘apostle’, usually for a monthly fee of some kind, is just a modern day travesty of the original calling of apostle. The term apostle seems to be used to create status, awe and heightens that inability to question ‘the Lord’s anointed’.

    A true apostle will draw attention to Christ, not him/herself. They will not perpetually ask for donations either. The Lord will undoubtedly fund them without the need to risk bringing His Name into disrepute with potentially exploitative offerings. They are also likely to experience some forms of suffering for the sake of the gospel.

    We used to have Evangelists. It was pretty clear what their campaigns were all about. They led people to the Lord. There was advertising; it was straightforward. Local churches would look after the new Christians. Now, we have everything else under the sun, none of which is new, and examples of which can be seen in scripture. However, the very churches who claim to take scripture more literally than other believers (this is not always good), also frequently choose to ignore those warnings. It is not surprising though, in this age of global communication and mass media, that everything happens again, but magnified many times over.

    The Lord is still here, and He allows this to happen because He is still working for good, through it all.

  49. I was driving home the other day and it struck me very forcefully:

    The Lord is allowing all this to happen … because He will not be mocked. The churches will either be vessels filled with God’s love for others or vessels full of God’s judgment on themselves.

    Even the lie that Haiti had been committed to Satan was wheeled out in Sunday’s sermon at my church. Just because some super-christian in the US proclaimed it on a video “they had sold their souls to Satan but after the Earthquake they were all praying to God in heaven, Praise Jesus.” (in suitable southern accent)
    It was as if, the earth-quake was some divine retribution for something the Haitians had done. They couldn’t actually have been just as guilty as the rest of humanity. Could they?

    {But look, hey, Haiti turning to God after belonging to Satan … backs up the NAR Dominionist agenda to the hilt.}

    In truth, we all deserve what happened in Haiti to happen to us.

    We listen to those who talk about God’s Love but not those who talk about His righteousness. Why? Because we want to hear about revival. Hananiah only talked about God’s Love. “He will restore all things. Peace, peace.”

    Jeremiah told the people, “you will lose everything else because you will not repent of your wicked ways and obey God’s commandments. Only then will God restore all things.”

    We want God to restore the Church in the west … without repenting of OUR wicked ways. True revival doesn’t start in the streets … it starts inside the church building. It starts in my heart and your heart.

    Are we willing to live lives that are so different that people will hate us for it? Are we willing to be salty enough and light enough that we affect our environment without saying a word?

    That’s the challenge. This is the one thing that “program-driven” or “Porpoise-driven” activities can never do. All those things don’t need the Holy Spirit.

    Living a life that conforms to Jesus clear teaching does. The Sermon on the Mount is not Jesus ideal. It is His standard.

    More Christians like that and we would get somewhere. The trouble is, we all want someone else to do it first. Well the buck stops here.

    Am I willing to be hated by the world? To die to self so utterly, that I am consumed by Him?

    The stakes are the highest. Make your calling and election sure, and you will find that a glorious harvest will follow in your wake.


  50. mkayla, I believe you when you say you do your own research, and that’s commendable, but please don’t tell me that all discernment ministries do. There are a great many parrots out there. How do I know? They make the same errors. That is no coincidence. It is copycat arrogance.

    I was a Word of Faith minister for a long time. Much of what they teach is actually very orthodox, as in Pentecostal orthodoxy, or Spirit-filled Baptist orthodoxy, and excellent. Many ministries came out of the Baptist movements, and were given the left hand of fellowship, because they were baptised with the Holy Spirit during the charismatic revivals of the 60’s and 70’s. So their doctrine is basically Baptist, but with the addition of the gifts of the Spirit as well as the fruit of the Spirit, and prophecy, healing and speaking in tongues, with the influence of the Pentecostal movements thrown in more recently. Ironically, many Baptist ministers today are charismatics.

    Truly, there are some who have gone into extreme teachings, particularly in the area of prosperity teaching, and in some areas of faith teaching, but much of what they teach would be very beneficial to the Body if they could learn to be more understanding.

    Some of the accusations levelled against them are not just wrong or silly, they are laughable. Most WoF people are taught to be long-suffering about criticism and walk in love, so they tend to just get on with life and let things go.

    There is still great scepticism about some of the doctrine, but it was far stronger a few years ago, and much of what is taught has been accepted by even traditional churches, much to the horror of critics, most of whom are not Spirit-filled.

    Like all critics, most go for the extreme elements of WoF and miss the grace. There are extremes in every movement, but it is not the extremities which are effective. Even WoF ministers are apt to expose those who overstep truth and preach error. But much of what is taught is Biblical and applicable at the level of holiness. It is the grace of God. Many people’s lives have been blessed by the truth which is presented.

  51. From .

    Interesting read. Not sure of some things, but insightful nevertheless. You seem to be in this category Facelift, if what is said is true. The article is quite old and may have changed.


    Editor’s Note 10.24.2001 – This article was written some weeks ago and we recently stopped by C.Peter Wagner’s website and found a new java format. What was most interesting is that it does not offer a cross but three pentagrams. on one of their navigation bars.

    The connections from one organisation to another, one movement to another, which is forming the Union of All in this end time One World is very complex. it is difficult in a more compact magazine to line these connections up properly. Should the reader want deeper and fuller documentation on any matter, please write for it with a donation for costs only. There is so much documentation here, please be specific.

    Let us then put down a simple Outline here:
    National Apostolic-Prophetic 21st Century Church Conference. In Australia, February 1-12 2000. Dr. C. Peter Wagner leads.

    Australian Christian Churches – new Force amalgamated in Australia.

    The Heart of= Australia. Pentecostal groups join forces. February, 2000. Dr. C. Peter Wagner and Bill Hybetis initiate.

    Hearts on Fire Catholic= Conference -July 14-17, 1999. Bill Hybells is mentioned a number of= times enthusiastically.

    Fuller Theological Seminary and The US Center for World Missions. Connections with Ralph Winter and Jay Gary UN and NWO facilitator).

    UNITED NATIONS Thrust for Unity and Conformity.
    US Center for World Missions and the
    UN “Creen Politics Agenda.

    The main points on this astonishing merger of many organisations here and in the USA would take a book! Startlingly there is far more behind= scenes than one could possibly imagine. One co-worker in America has attempted to get down as much as she can to alert Christians to the activities of Fuller Theolosical Seminary which has spawned the US CENTER= FOR WORLD MISSIONS. The name she uses is Net. These are a few of her comments when we received a file of info. late last year:
    ~..1 wanted to briefly express my concerns – at the time I thought I was the only one who had seen the whole picture [Extreme persecution= threatens] force me to send you this in its current form…. It is big enough to get me I severely persecuted! For your information, Neff
    What we have in a nut-shell is that the ACC union here (Australia) of the Pentecostal Churches is a pad of the global movement to bring a gigantic One World Church together under the Luciferic New Age. Net told of her shock in visiting US Center for World Missions, she saw how huge this organisation is with millions of ties to churches, groups, denominations, missions, the UN groups and countless people involved! The funds available seem to be staggering. I will quote from her hastily prepared note which we received from her by air mail. She has sent us documentation at cost to herself, not just on Internet, so that we Australians can be alerted to the whole picture. You think this ACC merger is just small potatoes? You are wrong, it is part of massive thrust for global power.


    A missions strategist, a Fuller “think tank”= genius who has contrived methodologies and strategies for the reintroduction of fake gifts and mission to the churches. He co-authored MCS1 0 Signs and Wonders with John Wimber and took this course globally to every continent. He arid John were the implementers of the scm-called restoration of the missing holy spirit to the Churches. The Postdenominal Church Movement and AD2tJO {J United Prayer Tract Spiritual Warfare movement are spearheaded by C. Peter Wagner Involved with him in the work are several dozen church leaders including Francis Frangipane ( to-pastor with= Reuven Damn – working under direct authority of Latter Rain leader James Watt). Ed Silvoso, T. Haggard, Cindy Jacobs, James Morroco, John Dawson, Esther Linisky, Larry Stockstill, Larry Lea et al.

    “Dr Clas er – who defined she – technology of progression of integration theory.”t
    Basically this was the methodology employed for ecumenism. It is still successfully being used to integrate their doctrines with people globally.

    The four steps are:

    1. Communication (dialogue and consensus) getting people together so they can “talk” and find areas of agreement…”consensus.” The most successful strategy for implementing “communication” has been to hold ecumenical prayer meetings. This has been employed at the city level-regional level, national level, global level, and has been utilised in areas of interest (secretaries, etc.), and among people groups as well as… pastors prayer breakfasts, women’s prayer organisations (Aglow), Businessmen (FOBMI), denominations, etc. Concerts of Prayer, and Mission America are currently being employed.

    2. Fellowship – due to dialogue and consensus they now begin to like one another, have comaraderie.

    3. Co-operation – get together around a common goal or project – like March for Jesus, the Bill Graham Crusades, Spiritual Warfare conferences, General of Intercession, Post-denominational Church Seminars. At this level there are still denominational differences.

    4. The fourth and final step of integration is “Association.” This is creating a whole NEW ORGANISATIONAL IDENTITY. Inter-denominational groups were an example, people left their denominations and re-grouped into a new “Form”.

    Promise Keepers appears to be a new Form (even though they adamantly deny this! their group structure promises to bind men together in groups that will find consensus and so on).

    [Despatch adds here that Alpha does a similar thing cf. our 2 Alpha Booklets ~ The Alpha Course Friend or Foe” & “Alpha & Diapraxis”].

    Antioch Networks and Cell Churches act in bring consensus as well. Where people get involved in all new organisational structures which become stronger to them than the denomination.


    Those involved in the Fuller! US Center for World Missions global enterprises would shock and surprise the reader! Just a few are Richard Foster, Billy Graham was on the board of trustees, Bill Bright was there during the “think tank” years this was a conspiracy! And all these men work in conjunction with David (Paul) Yangi Cho, under the guidance of whom they have modelled their cell group church structure. This cell church structure (and software) includes an integration technology that ties it to Promise Keeper’s database, Bethany World Prayer Center, Brigada, et,al. A global database that soon will include every man, woman and child on the earth; where they are, what they are doing, and what ETHNICITY they are! Ethnic cleansing could well be at the root of this monster, and could be a part of a highly kept secret doctrine to eradicate many of those they happily embrace at the moment.

    Despatch comment:

    This sounds extreme, but we are dealing with incredible forces and power grabs on the earth RIGHT NOW!

    Millions of Christian workers are being utilised to bring about their own destruction, all in the name of evangelising the world… How diabolical… Satanic! Not only does this movement rationalise their need for this information based on a purported need to find the hidden people groups and evangelise the world, but countless millions of Christians have been trained up in, and indoctrinated into their methods and mission. Cho has also been active for years, according to Al Dagar’s “celebration= 2000” report on Jay Gary [ Despatch has a booklet on Jay Gary and associates] in the CATHOLIC CHURCH as well. It all comes together at the CHO level ( he founded the Church Growth International and is the pastor of what is purported to be the world’s largest “Christian” church with over one million members!)

    There is literally not one denominational church organisation today that is not at least partially involved in this movement. Many of whom, I am sure, are incredibly gullible and innocent in their participation. (As with all conspiracies the fewer who know the real agenda the better). However, the theology that these promote speaks for itself, and the dearth of true doctrine is the shame of all who join in this movement. They have been deceived into taking up banners, and taking to the streets in a bold display of “power” in Marches for Jesus, because they do not understand the Word of God. The plain fact is that Apostasy is prophesied, not end-time revival of masses. What a huge deception this all is. Our most recent dose of this movement is the “mission America door-to-door data basing in the USA. These are NOT nice people,they are using the churches= to set up the numbering system of the ANTICHRIST,”


    The US Center for World Missions now effectively oversees the outreach ministry of the entire global evangelical churches. Under the Lausanne banner, AD 2000 and Beyond Movement, GCOWE, project director was Jay Gary while at US Centre! After directing several notable projects there, Gary went on to found B.E.G.I.N. where he developed an AD 2000= campaign aligned with the UNITED NATIONS. The US Center (which has infiltrated C. Peter Wagner into our midst, with his amalgamation of the Pentecostal churches and groups here in Australia) is an umbrella organsation for nearly every major missions organisation in the world. This is a thinly disguised movement working with the UN agenda, to take dominion= over the whole world and implement a fake “biblical theocrary”

    This is a political movement of the most powerful order and must not be confused with anything remotely Christianity! It works by “spiritually mapping” every square inch of the globe in huge databases, they use a cell “GRID” to mark every pocket or person= or “resistance” to the move of the counterfeit “holy spirit.” Targeting every and each true believer who resists the takeover.

    Dispatch Issues this warning:
    Do not reveal any personal, intimate data which can be used on files for churches. Do not fill in any Survey Sheets send out by united church organisations by mail. Churches are collecting (in some cases) personal data in cell groups and other areas. Some are compiling congregational profiles on computer disk. To be sent to World Missions groups or personnel? To end up on global databases?)

    Naivety and unwise “trust is foolish. No one has any right to any of your personal information, that is between you and the Lord. (Source: DESPATCH MAGAZINE 12.1 March 2000 Australia – W.B.Howard)

  52. Thanks for your time Mkayla. I really appreciate your effort to reply at effort about these things. I’ve put your link up beside Signposts02 so we can check out your material. I will have to read more above tomorrow night. I need to go sleep.

  53. Oh the irony Faithlift ………

    Mykala, your trip out of charismania etc is the story so many are telling these days. Faithlift talks of leaving the WOF movement (but his story doesn’t mirror , let’s say, Junker Jorge), his story is rather one of leaving WOF and linking with the church organisation I left i.e.

    Something I find quite ironic!

  54. I don’t think you should presume to know my story, Teddy. There is no irony to it.

    Wagner has never been WoF. He wrote his first book on the Gifts of the Spirit, which was full of inaccuracies, and admitted somewhere along the line that he did not speak in tongues. For a WoF minister that would be extraordinary. I have the book. It is interesting and in some ways useful, but in other ways totally misleading. No WoF minister could possibly agree with his assessment of how the gifts function. I think he may have been filled with the Spirit subsequently, but wasn’t when the book first came out.

    So there you are. Right at the beginning of your claims, where you say it is all under WoF, you are incorrect. I hope this helps in your research.

    I almost rest my case with the example you produced above from ‘cephas-library’. What a load of absolute religious cobblers! Let’s do some real, honest research, and not just draw down the first bunch of pharisaical nonsense which supports our claims!

    This is the conspiracy theory of all theories! Now NAR is the beginning of the one-world-government, Lucifer’s end-time Beastly government of the Book of Revelation! Obviously Wagner must be the False Prophet who will serve the Beast! Ha Ha! It used to be Henry Kissenger! 666!

    There’s a huge difference between the ecumenicalism of the WCC , which tends towards the headship of the Roman pope, and a coming together of the actual Body of Christ as the One Church of Ephesians 4, including the spiritual cleansing of the Bride of Ephesians 5.

    Do you think that ministries around the world independently working out their differences and championing the cause of ridding themselves of denominational schisms and barriers is actually a bad thing? Or is it a move of God to draw bona fidé Christians together in Christ?

  55. Well! That is one of the hugest conspiracy theories I’ve ever read! Bit too big for my poor brain to comprehend or believe.

    …But assuming just for one moment that it is all true… you have only one option. Leave your churches! Remain a part of the true church that is not on anyone’s organisational database, that doesn’t ask for your personal details for membership purposes, and which God organises organically as He sees fit. This church is probably the fastest growing alternative to the megachurches across the world today, and is not documentable.

    In other words, you should all be like me. (Tongue firmly in cheek.) 🙂

  56. “Do you think that ministries around the world independently working out their differences and championing the cause of ridding themselves of denominational schisms and barriers is actually a bad thing? Or is it a move of God to draw bona fidé Christians together in Christ?” – FL

    And if you do as I’ve said above, there will also be no denominational boundaries; and since there is no co-ordination by man, how could it be other than a move of God?

  57. That would be nice, RP, and very simple, relaxing even. The thing is that we have to follow God, not man. He has organised us into the One Church, which includes city churches and local churches, flocks which are overseen by shepherds and elders. He has arranged the five-fold oversight. This is his way, and should be ours. Nether is optional.

    The thing he is against, though, is the immaturity of division and schism by saying we’re of this Flock Leader, or of that Flock Leader, we’re of Cephas, or of Paul, or of Apollos. The truth is that we are all of Christ, and all things are ours in Him.

    This is not a denial of the importance of city-wide, nation-wide, or local churches, but a reaffirmation of his means of applying church to the Church. If we are truly in Christ all schism must go. This doesn’t negate the need for the substructure of localised churches, though. It gives the criteria for their development.

    Unfortunately, over the centuries the Church has drifted into schism. We are so far away from the original plan that it will take an expansive, explosive move of God to bring us back to the point of his Will for the Church.

    Wagner’s sole concern, always, has been the cataloguing of the possibility and reality of this move, and the phenomenal shift which will need to take place for it to happen.

  58. Faithlift, I wouldn’t necessarily categorize Wagner under word of faith, and I don’t believe I did so in my comments. However, those who believe we speak things into existence, those under him who are known as apostles and prophets do that very thing. Now, the healing rooms are word of faith, and I did quite a bit of writing about them. Maybe that is where the confusion comes in. I tend to stick to the areas I have had experience. I was never a follower of Wagner, so I don’t research him much. The only reason I speak against the NAR is because of my involvement with others under his alliance like Jones, Jacobs and those who follow his NAR design. Hope that clears up the misunderstanding!

  59. Teddy, I love you heaps as a sister, and enjoy our conversations, but I am not going to be converted to Reformed Theology.

    God is not a cessationist. That’s that. We need the gifts and everything he has blessed us with to fulfil the call he has given us, to complete the task, and to be effective in the process.

    God is not an elitist. He has not separated existing people on the earth for salvation and others for burning torment. He has given us all a Choice. He has admonished us to choose life. He has given us a Way. The Way is Jesus Christ. he has given us a Gift. That Gift is eternal life in Christ Jesus. He has given us a free Pardon. Jesus was the Ransom for our Pardon.

    God is not a preferrer of persons. All who call out on the name of the Lord shall be saved. NO one is saved unless they hear. o one hears unless the gospel is preached. The gospel cannot be preached unless someone is sent to preach it.

    I wish Jonker Jorge well. If he is happy in his new theology, then let him be blessed. I find his reasons for leaving WoF interesting, and in some ways truthful, but in other ways misguided. My experiences are different, and the outcome different.

    We are all on a journey to completion in Christ. It is not our denominational or theological background which shapes our life, but our relationship with Christ.

  60. Ugh, in re-reading my comments I threw in Jones as under Wagner. This is incorrect. Sorry, got a headache and was in a hurry to go get some food. What we are seeing is a coming together of all this different streams anyway. So while Bob Jones may not be under Wagner he is right there with other groups who is – like Bentley and Joyner.

  61. How could I “convert” you to Reformed theology, Faithlift? Only the Holy Spirit can do that! 🙂 🙂

  62. mkayla,
    ‘What we are seeing is a coming together of all this different streams anyway’

    That is what Wagner observed in the first place. That is why he continued his research inot the phenomenon of a pattern he saw in the growth areas of the Church.

    My point was that he didn’t begin the movements, he catalogued them and wrote books on them. He was a Fuller Seminary professor with this responsibility, being responsible for researching and teaching on Church Growth.

    I ask you this: if he didn’t begin any of the movements with similar growth traits, how could be the chief Apostle over them as has been claimed?

    Incidentally, the constant reference to Bentley is a detour. He is not an Apostle, or a Pastor. Wagner’s involvement was advisory only. He had nothing to do with Lakeland, and had never been to a meeting there until he was asked to give advice on how to oversee what was becoming bigger than the Pastor, Strader, could handle, especially once he realised that there may be possible (at that time, as they saw it) issues with Bentley’s character.

    Wagner, correctly, advised that Bentley be immediately brought under spiritual oversight and supervision. He recommended a certain group of Apostles. The subsequent agreement by Bentley to come under these men was followed very quickly, a matter of weeks, by the exposure of his infidelity, and then the disciplinary action. Wagner was not otherwise involved in Bentley’s ministry, or Rick Joyner’s.

  63. Yes, it is very relaxing. I also have no issue with God doing His work in a variety of ways, including via organised churches. Each expression of our gathering has its inherent risks and hazards. The problems begin when we think we are immune to them or exclude others by saying our way of doing things is the way everyone should do them. As for apostles, prophets, elders etc – they exist in the Church, and are as available to me as to anyone else. I do not stand condemned when I question the notion that certain people are apostles as they claim to be though. When an office is freshly held up, it _could_ be restoration. Or, it could be men seeking power, and to restore a kind of feudal system with themselves at the top – for everyone else’s good, of course.

    People are right to ask questions, and providing they follow Christ in their hearts, resulting in all kinds of good fruit, they will not stand condemned if they are wrong about someone else’s calling. In fact, they will be commended in many cases, for being careful and asking questions and not just being blown around by the latest wind, even when in some cases they lose relationships for going a different way.

    I am quite interested in the kinds of influences Fuller Theological Seminary may have had on the Pentecostal movement. Though its likely that these influences were due to particular individuals who were teaching at some given point in time. I do know that their teaching is far more thorough than many places we have available to us in Pentecostal circles in Australia.

  64. Faithlift, maybe you should listen to this video if you think Wagner’s role was only “advisory” and that he had nothing to do with Lakeland.

    You only need to hear the first minute to hear the truth! He’s leading this show, commissioning Bentley as an “apostle”. Look who’s standing around. They were all in this together, all convinced God was moving, blah blah blah. God has moved all right. He sent Jesus to die on the cross! These men all stand around declaring this and decreeing that as tho they are going to have something to do with what God does next…??? This is not a move of God. It was a move of satan and many fell for it, just as they continue to do. Wagner is a dangerous man. God has done all that He is going to do. We need to be about His work in preaching the gospel and forget our prideful “gimme gimme” neediness that comes from standing around waiting for the next anointing, the next conference, the next move. Get real!

    This event was only one example of a “coming together”. Others have happened since that time – IHOP, Bethel, with the Arnotts of Toronto, Jacobs prophesying at Morningstar, etc. There’s more here than just a detour. The point I was trying to make earlier was that I mispoke about Bob Jones being under Wagner and that there has been such a coming together in the last year of all these groups, I mispoke. That’s all.

    What’s worse, Wagner is playing his own game. Nothing he states has any true biblical meaning. And the same can be said of all these so-called leaders at this meeting. That night was full of false prophecy and false doctrine. It’s only an example of many other false teachings/methods and over all weirdness Wagner is involved in. None of these men who speak are true to scripture. So we can argue all day long about Wagner -who he is, what he has done or hasn’t and none of it matters. All that matters is Christ, the way we handle scripture and the way we handle others. When you begin to examine these teachings you will not find them to be biblical. So, WOF, Kingdom Now, Manifest Sons, Emergent – etc. It matters not. They have all twisted and perverted the scripture to make it say something it does not. Many have been led astray and continue to be. All of us need to return to our bibles and study the words written there. Only then will we see the truth. I shudder to think what any one of the REAL disciples/apostles of Christ would have done to men like these!

  65. Wagner says he was at the commissioning night, but that is the only time he visited Lakeland. Bentley is a distraction.

    I think there will be many strange, incomprehensible and delightful convocations as the day draws near. How else will schisms be broken down and hunger for truth be realised?

    It will be very interesting, but we shouldn’t lose sight of the ability of the Holy Ghost to make outstanding changes despite our bewilderment.

  66. As an aside, I watched the public rebuke of Todd Bentley the other day.

    It both amazed me and depressed me.

    Several things stood out for me:

    1. Bentley refused to engage with those who were rebuking him. He merely talked over them.

    2. He continued to lie outrageously “I feel the glory!” while security manhandled people out of the building

    3. He then proceeded to tell people quite calmly to give to his ministry by credit card. (Debt is theft but lets not worry about that.)

    Was the public rebuke worth it? Would it have been more useful to video the whole service so that we get to see all the offering talks and all the crazy, blatant lies from that dude instead?

    This is a slightly snide comment, but on his blog-not-a-blog he stated that he was lifting weights since Jan 09.

    But he’s fatter than ever!

    He must still be drinking pretty heavily.

    This then leads me to wonder how many mistresses he currently has on the go …


  67. Even if they don’t appreciate Bentley, it’s the height of rudeness and bad manners to interrupt a meeting in this way. Who’s to say if they are off he wall themselves. Why should any minister have to answer to them? What authority do they have to publicly rebuke anyone? Nil! What right did they have to film their debacle and put it up on You Tube? They didn’t ask questions, or politely request a hearing or interview. No! they were rightly ejected, whether we like Bentley or not.

  68. Bentley isn’t even born again yet pimps for money with his lies.

    After those dudes were thrown out Bentley was encouraging believers to get into debt on their credit cards.

    The sooner he’s in a chain-gang breaking rocks the better chance he has of getting saved. He’s a shameless crook who can talk some talk but ain’t never walked the walk.


  69. Indeed FL, what right does Todd Bentley have to stand up in a pulpit after dragging the very name of Jesus through the dirt with his adultery and profiteering?

    All those involved in putting Bentley on stage should join him on the chain-gang, breaking rocks in Nevada.

  70. I guess the same right as King David when he committed similar acts!

    I find it better to let God judge the things I have no direct influence over, and were I’m not fully abreast of all the facts. I have warned our church about Bentley’s error though, which is as much as I can do.

    But you don’t know, any more than I do, if he is saved.

  71. On top of this, David had to repent of his Sin … but the consequences continued to play out long after this occurred.

    The son he fathered died. His family life suffered too … Absalom rebelled against David … it was a real mess.

    But the key thing was, David repented … after being confronted by Nathan the prophet.

    Todd has simply had his cake and ate it too. And he’s carrying on making merchandise of God’s People.

    Without repentance, there can be no forgiveness.

  72. I don’t think those ministers can ever be in a position to speak with Bentley reasonably. To me, I saw that was their best option. What ever comes out of Bentley’s ministry will effect their congregations.

    They feel cornered. Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead because they lied to the Holy Spirit. That changed the church meeting dynamics quickly. My hat goes off to those ministers. They are standing for what they believed in. The thing is, now that Todd Bentley knows that a problem exists with other ministers about him, does he dare pull a meeting together to find out what the issue is so that it can be resolved.

  73. I believe Bentley is saved, but he is not spiritually healthy at all. Back on topic. Check out Wagners website and watch the video at the bottom.

    The thing about Wagner is that he may have his NAR, but he entices ministers to be apart of his network or grooms them. I don’t know where Phil Pringle is with his relations with Wagner. But Wagner says he is a true apostolic leader.

    To me, this throws out Wagner’s credibility what he considers to be sound doctrine if he considers Pringle’s material to be scripturally strong and applicable.

    This also indicates to me that Phil Pringle is probably now associated with the NAR. And this would be something he would want to be apart of to spread his name, fame and C3I movement. A whole new money circuit could now be open for him to preach on.

    What I’m saying is, in relation to all above, is that Cal Pierce and Curry Blake can still be influenced or associated with Wagners NAR movement even if they are not apart of it. It would be pretty hard not to be.

    It may be that Wagner may groom the more influential ministries to eventually be in line with the NAR and then get them to be apart of his NAR movement.

  74. The reason why I put up the article is because of the perception given of what Wagner seems to be doing.

    I don’t believe in that database thing, but he is very fond in getting churches to become part of his phenomenal revival/reformation that’s moving across the globe. The research may be all well and good, but that means he is obtaining information about churches globally.

    Seeing how KCP, IHOP and the NAR have operated in the past, people have every right to be concerned about them. These movements are usurping other ministries and using manipulative tactics to bring so-called reformation into churches that don’t these deceptive ministers spreading NAR nonsense.

    The NAR is already here in Sydney. Wagner doesn’t have to be here. His yeast is becoming more obvious and it disgusts me to see how damaging it is becoming. Now he just needs to come down when ministries are more than willing to be apart of his so-called reformation.

    Danny Nalliah would be drooling to be ordained by Wagner as an NAR Apostle.

  75. Resource Directory for the New Apostolic Reformation
    Rachel Tabachnick printable version print page Bookmark and Share
    Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 01:15:43 PM EST

    The Apostles and Prophets of the New Apostolic Reformation view their postdenominational movement as the future face of the Protestant church and the end of denominations as we know them. Their ideology and “relational networks” have taken root in the block of 400 million independent charismatics, sometimes referred to as neo-charismatics or neo-Pentecostals. This is an often overlooked mega-block of Christianity that is larger than all Protestant denominations combined, according to world missions statisticians. Following is a resource directory for the NAR movement including: the International Coalition of Apostles (ICA); “prayer warrior” networks; educational, training and accreditation entities; major campaigns such as the “Transformations” and “7-M” outreach, and more.

    Tomorrow (January 21, 2010) the U.S. Congress will hold a hearing under the auspices of the Tom Lantos Human Rights Commission to investigate the draconian anti-gay bill proposed in Uganda. The NAR has been “transforming” Uganda for over a decade, along with other American evangelical groups. The following directory, along with the documentary video Transforming Uganda by Bruce Wilson, provides a framework for understanding the movement and its impact on nations around the globe.

    This resource directory will also be available in the Special Focus box titled “New Apostolic Reformation.” This is a work in progress and will be continuously updated and expanded. For easy reference, each entity is listed in bold and additional information for that entity is in the indented, shaded boxes.

    Resource Directory for the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)

    “The New Apostolic Reformation is an extraordinary work of God that began at the close of the twentieth century and continues on. It is, to a significant extent, changing the shape of the Protestant world.”

    — C. Peter Wagner in the foreword to the 2001 edition of Ted Haggard’s 1998 book,The Life Giving Church

    Convening Apostle C. Peter Wagner

    C. Peter Wagner is the convening or presiding Apostle over the NAR movement. Wagner, who will be eighty years old this year, was a signer of the Coalition on Revival’s 1986 Manifesto for the Christian Church, an original executive of the Lausanne Committee on World Evangelization (LCWE) as shown in his papers at the Billy Graham archives, head of the United Prayer Track of AD2000 and Beyond, and taught “church growth” at Fuller Theological Seminary for thirty years. He announced the New Apostolic Reformation as having begun in 2001.

    Link to a video of Wagner teaching about the New Apostolic Reformation. For an overview of the NAR see this summary by one of Wagner’s former students.

    Global Harvest Ministries

    This is C. Peter and Doris Wagner’s personal para-church ministry and the legal parent entity of many of the other NAR organizations listed below including the ACEA, ACKW, EVAT, ICA, ISDM, and WLI.

    ICA The International Coalition of Apostles

    The ICA is the network of several hundred apostles in the U.S. and approximately 40 other nations formed by the convening apostle, C. Peter Wagner. Each of these apostles has ministries under him/her, some hundreds or even thousands. The list of members is regularly updated and can be downloaded. This membership is under the leadership of Wagner, Presiding Apostle at large, Chuck Pierce and Doris Wagner, who serve as Vice Presidents, and Ambassadorial Apostle John Kelly. In addition to these leaders, the current council providing accountability is made up of the following apostles: Naomi Dowdy, Ed Silvoso, Dennis Peacocke, Bill Hamon, Joseph Mattera, Ron Cottle, James Chosa, Dan Juster, Pat Francis, George Bakalov, John Eckhardt, and H. Daniel Wilson.

    Ed Silvoso, from the above list, can be seen in Bruce Wilson’s Transforming Uganda, documenting the New Apostolics role in Uganda’s anti-gay bill. Note that many significant ideological leaders or “fathers” of the movement have their own networks and are not currently listed as apostles in the ICA, such as Rick Joyner of MorningStar Ministries, and Mike Bickle, head of IHOP (International House of Prayer), and model for 24/7 and “Harp and Bowl” prayer movements around the globe. Bickle has served in the ACPE listed below.

    ACPE The Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders

    The ACPE is an inner circle of about two to three dozen apostles which is sometimes posted in its entirety on on Elijah List, the website of ACPE member Steve Schultz.

    The Elijah List also post prophecy proclamations as seen at this Elijah List posting. The ACPE includes Mary Glazier who claims Sarah Palin as part of her spiritual warfare network, and Lou Engle, founder of The Call events including the November 1, 2008 San Diego stadium event in support of California’s Prop Eight at which Engle demonized homosexuality and called for Christian martyrs for the cause. Engle hosted Newt Gingrich and Mike Huckabee in “Rediscovering God in America” broadcast on GodTV in June and was a featured leader at the December 16 Prayer Cast event in D.C. against healthcare reform which included Jim DeMint, Sam Brownback, and Michelle Bachmann.

    Spiritual Warfare Networks

    Wagner’s organization includes networks in each state that were originally called “spiritual warfare networks”, then changed to “strategic prayer networks,” and now identified as the USGAPN and several other entities under the supervision of leading apostles.

    USGAPN – United States Global Apostolic Prayer Network.

    This is led by Dutch Sheets, Wagner’s personal pastor and considered third in command after Wagner and the heir apparent to the movement, Chuck Pierce. Chuck Pierce and Dutch Sheets wrote Releasing the Prophetic Destiny of the Nation about their joint fifty-state tour of the nation. Activity and prophecies for different states are often included on the website of Chuck Pierce’s Texas-based Glory of Zion ministry.

    On January 7, 2009, Dutch Sheets spoke at Wasilla Assembly of God. The video can be accessed here. Scroll through the list of New Apostolic leaders that have spoken at Wasilla AOG this year to find Dutch Sheets.

    National Governmental Prayer Alliance

    This network is also under the authority of Dutch Sheets and led by Timmerle Barnes.

    Unites States Prayer Reformation Network

    Led by Cindy Jacobs head of Generals International with her husband Mike. Jacobs is the top ranking woman apostle in the movement beside Wagner’s wife, Doris. Generals International also has prayer networks in Central Asia and Turkey.

    Link here to an example of a “prayer warrior” update from the New England Apostolic Prayer Network, which is part of the U.S. Prayer Reformation Network of Cindy Jacobs. This update was sent January 7, 2010 and concerned the special U.S. Senate election in Massachusetts.

    Cindy Jacobs can be seen in Bruce Wilson’s video documenting the New Apostolics role in Uganda’s anti-gay bill.

    More Information on Spiritual Warfare Networks

    Following is a sample of Apostolic Prayer Networks which fall under the supervision of the above apostolic leaders.

    GAPN – Georgia Global Apostolic Network
    ORPN – Ohio Reformation Prayer Network
    TXAPN – Texas Apostolic Prayer Network
    MIPGAPN – Michigan Global Apostolic Network
    IN APN – Indiana Global Apostolic Network
    Louisiana Global Apostolic Prayer Network
    Illinois Apostolic Prayer Network
    Heartland Apostolic Network
    FLRPN – Florida Refomation Prayer Network
    Arkansas Apostolic Prayer Network
    Pray Colorado
    Power Grid Apostolic Network – Kansas
    New England Apostolic Prayer Network
    Missouri Prayer Global Mission
    Pray New York
    OAPN Oklahoma Apostolic Prayer Network

    The “spiritual warfare” networks were used extensively in the 2008 presidential campaign to broadcast prophecy concerning Sarah Palin. This is arguably the meaning of the Palin’s references to thanking her “prayer warriors” in interviews with James Dobson and again with Christian Broadcast Network.

    In 2006 Florida’s Katherine Harris was taped in a controversial conference call praying that God would “bring the hearts and minds of our Jewish brothers and sisters into alignment” in a taped telephone conference with Ken Malone. Reporters identified him as head of Lighthouse World Outreach but failed to recognize that Malone was then the Florida coordinator for Wagner’s U.S. Strategic Prayer Network, which illustrates how the movement has escaped notice.

    Market Apostles

    Also called workplace apostles, these leaders are considered one of the most important sectors of the movement. While they emphasize evangelism in the workplace, the primary task of this division is taking “Christian dominion” over “the mountain” of business and finance. (The 7-Mountain mandate is covered below.)

    Os Hillman, based in Atlanta, is the head of the International Coalition of Workplace Ministries and Market Leaders. Os Hillman and marketplace leader Apostle Julius Oyet can be seen in Bruce Wilson’s video documenting the New Apostolics role in Uganda’s anti-gay bill.

    Apostles are encouraged to merge ministry with business. Apostle Pat Francis of Ontario heads Kingdom Covenant Ministries which includes a communications corporation, Elomax Oil and Gas and Elomax Enterprises. She also serves as a United Nations (NGO) “Transformational Activist” according to her bio. Two other apostles from the UK and Australia run Markets Unlocked, a “kingdom company” and market matchmaking system. The Market Apostles work closely with the International Christian Chamber of Commerce (ICCC) founded in 1985 and still led by founder Gunnar Olson of Sweden, member of the ICA Apostolic Council from 2004 – 2007.

    Wagner teaches that once the work of market apostles has progressed, there will be a “great wealth transfer” from the ungodly to the godly which will facilitate the rapid expansion of the “kingdom.” In this decree posted on the ministry site of Apostle James Goll, Wagner relates the formation of a 48 apostle council to be in charge of overseeing the great wealth transfer. The composition of this and other “kingdom wealth” groups* have not been made public but many related to these initiatives can be seen at Market Leaders, Church in the Workplace Conferences, and the Kingdom Economic Summit. (View Kingdom Economic Summit videos.)
    Leading teachers in this area include Ed Silvoso from Argentina/California, Bruce Cook, Johnny Enlow and Pat Francis of Toronto.

    Paid prayer intercessors for businesses is another growing field.
    Other “kingdom wealth” groups mentioned in NAR media are the Apostolic Council for Kindom Wealth (ACKW), Zion Apostolic Council, and Hamilton Group.

    ISDM International Society of Deliverance Ministries

    This international network of deliverance ministries is headed by Bill and Janet Sudduth and developed from the ADRM roundtable. These ministries are for the purpose of expelling and repelling demons which are claimed to cause both physical and emotional problems. Apostle Chris Hayworth heads an international network of deliverance ministries called Cleansing Streams Ministries which originated at Jack Hayford’s Church on the Way. Hayford maintains apostolic authority over that network.

    EVAT The Eagle Vision Apostolic Team

    This is a more secretive inner circle group whose membership is not advertised, although sometimes apostles will list their participation in this group in their ministry resumes. For instance Apostle Naomi Dowdy is the Resident Apostle of Singapore and lists her EVAT membership in her ministry resume. Dowdy spoke at Wasilla Assembly of God on November 4, 2009.

    ACEA The Apostolic Council for Educational Accountability

    The ACEA is Wagner’s “creative alternative to accreditation” and is under the apostolic covering (or authority) of Leo Lawson. The ACEA has no interest in secular accreditation which they see as a hindrance to their mission.

    An ICA “honorary apostle for life,” Ret. Col. Jim Ammerman, serves as a commissioner for the Transworld Accrediting Commission International (TACI) and as VP of the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools. Ammerman is also head of the Full Gospel Chaplaincy which is one of the largest endorsing agencies for U.S. Military chaplains, and at the center of recent controversy due to his anti-government conspiracy theories and aggressive proselytizing within the military.

    WLI Wagner Leadership Institute

    WLI includes over a dozen regional U.S. divisions and Wagner Leadership Institute Canada, UK, Asia, Australia, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Japan, Korea, Kenya, Mexico, and Rwanda. The institutes issue diplomas including doctoral and feature courses on prophecy, faith healing, demon deliverance, and a division on finance and foreign exchange. Wagner has recently announced that the WLI headquarters in Colorado Springs will be moving into the Jericho Center of Apostle Dick Eastman’s Colorado branch of Every Home for Christ.

    International Society of Healing Rooms

    ICA Apostle Cal Pierce heads the International Society of Healing Rooms, an international network of faith-healing centers.

    Link to the article Generational Curses, Deliverance Centers, and the “Kingdom” Health Care System.

    Julius Oyet, who was recognized by the Parliament when the anti-gay legislation in Uganda was first introduced, heads the Uganda Healing Rooms under the apostolic covering of Cal Pierce. Oyet can be seen in Bruce Wilson’s Transforming Uganda documenting the New Apostolics role in Uganda’s anti-gay bill and in the report by the New Apostolic Reformation Research Team.

    7-M or Seven Mountains Mandate

    The mandate for bringing the Kingdom of God to earth includes the “7-M” or Reclaiming the Seven Mountains of Culture initiative. This campaign involves the taking of “dominion over seven key spheres of society which are government, arts and entertainment, media, education, family, religion, and business.

    The mountain of business is considered key to taking dominion over the others and much of the promotion of the 7-M is done by Market Apostles. Os Hillman in Atlanta oversees this important segment of the movement and Lance Wallnau is one of its major motivational speakers, but Market Apostles are now also active in Africa, Asia, and South America, and Europe.

    Julius Oyet, one of the major figures in the Ugandan anti-gay bill is a regular speaker at 7-M and “Church in the Workplace Conferences.” Lance Wallnau stresses stealth evangelism as seen in a June 7, 2009 speech at Wasilla Assembly of God in which he explains that infiltration is necessary before evangelization. (Scroll down through the list of internationally known New Apostolic speakers who have recently visited the Wasilla Assembly of God until you get to Lance Wallnau.) He gives the example of Guatemala prison ministries where a toned down version of “Kingdom” worldview is taught for a full year before any attempt to convert the prisoners.

    Thomas Muthee, star of the first “Transformations” movie (see next section on the “Transformations,”) talked about the 7-M campaign at Wasilla Assembly of God just prior to his anointing of Sarah Palin in 2005. Wagner’s 2008 book Dominion!, How Kingdom Action Can Change the World emphasizes the use of workplace apostles as the current crucial component to taking control over the other six mountains of culture.

    Transformations Movie Series and Transformation Organizations

    The Transformations series of movies produced by George Otis, Jr. and Sentinel Group promote the spiritual warfare and unorthodox evangelizing methodologies of NAR. The series features prototypes of ethnic communities, cities, and nations claimed to be part of a wave of transformations in advance of the coming of the utopian “Kingdom” on earth. See trailers for the Transformations series of movies at Sentinel Media’s YouTube page.

    “Transformations” has become the buzzword for the evangelization of entire communities and nations, and the series has spawned transformation entities all over the world including Transformation Associates and Ministries (Otis), Transform World (Luis Bush), International Transformation Network (Ed Silvoso and Francis Oda), and Transformations Africa. The latter, headed by Graham Power, is the parent entity of the “Global Day of Prayer.”

    George Otis, Ed Silvoso, Francis Oda, and Graham Power are featured in Bruce Wilson’s video documenting the New Apostolics role in Uganda’s anti-gay bill. (Note that Francis Oda and Graham power are not identified in the video. They are standing to the right of Allen Kagina, head of the Uganda Revenue Service in the last scene in the video.)

    Following are Transformation organizations related to the NAR under the leadership of George Otis, Luis Bush, and Ed Silvoso and modeled after the “Transformations” series:

    Transform Indiana
    Transformation Cincinnati & Northern Kentucky
    Prayer Transformation Ministries – Minnesota
    Vision Orlando
    Somebody Cares (Somebody Cares is a large charitable/emergency response/transformations entity, now with branches in Indonesia and Botswana.)
    Transformation Hawaii (ITN Hawaii) and additional link
    ITN Minnesota
    ITN Hong Kong
    ITN Northern California
    ITN South Africa – Graham Power is head of ITN South Africa and also founder of the Global Day of Prayer.
    Transform Brazil
    Transform World Houston
    Transform World India
    Transforming Melbourne
    Transform USA
    Transformation Virginia
    Transformation Traverse City Prayer Transformation Ministries Minnesota Scroll down to promo video on Transformation San Francisco event.
    Transform North Carolina

    Transformations networks work closely with political leaders. For instance, International Transformation Network’s conferences have included the participation of Ugandan First Lady Janet Museveni. President Yoweri Museveni and numerous other political and military leaders are featured in the Transformations movies. Lt. Gov. James “Duke” Aiona of Hawaii has written and spoken for ITN and Hawaii Transformations.

    Numerous “ecumenical” prayer and fasting movements, pastors` networks and city transformations groups fall under the domain of the apostles and draw in the unsuspecting from Protestant denominations and Roman Catholicism. The Transformations movies have played a significant role in the charismatic “renewal” movements which have divided the Mainline Protestant churches in the U.S., and this influence can clearly be seen in the Anglican renewal movements extensive ties to George Otis, Jr. and Alistair Petrie, the Canadian apostle whose role is bringing Episcopalians/Anglicans into charismatic or “Spirit-filled” belief. The Transformations “franchises” have also played a role in attracting Roman Catholics in South American and other global Catholic populations to charismatic belief and partnership with the NAR and its agendas. This is despite their open demonization of Roman Catholicism which is claimed to be controlled by the “Queen of Heaven,” a powerful demonic principality. See Killing Mother Teresa with their Prayers.

    The Transformations feature prototypes of locations around the world in which “Christian dominion” over government and societal structures supposedly produce mini-utopias where AIDS is miraculously cured, crime and corruption overcome, environmental degradation instantaneously reversed and vegetables grow to monstrous sizes. They believe these claimed results can be repeated worldwide as the apostles and prophets of the movement bring the “kingdom of God” to earth. Locations included in the movie series include the nations Uganda, Fiji, and cities of Cali, Colombia; Hemet, California, Sao Paulo, Brazil; Kiambu, Kenya; Almolonga, Guatemala; and more. The movies demonstrate the use of spiritual mapping, spiritual warfare, and other unorthodox evangelization tools. The emphasis is not on saving individual souls but expelling demons and taking control of territory or entire populations. The most recent Transformations movie came out in October 2009 and features the Sao Paulo police force, which Otis claims has spiritually mapped the city. Link to a detailed report on the “Transformations” movies and resulting Transformations entities.

    Christian Zionist Events and Organizations

    Christian Zionism is another area increasingly dominated by by the apostles and prophets, particularly at the international level. The largest single Christian Zionists event in the world, the Day of Prayer for the Peace of Jerusalem (DPPJ), was co-founded by Jack Hayford (mentioned previously under the International Society of Deliverance Ministries) and Robert Stearns, and is endorsed by the Knesset’s Christian Allies Caucus. Stearns heads Eagles Wing’s Ministry which manages the DPPJ, and he is also editor of Kairos, a popular apostolic and prophetic magazine which features top NAR apostles, although Stearns himself is not listed in the NAR’s ICA directory. Stearns’ ministry events often include Chuck Pierce, the heir apparent to C. Peter Wagner’s Global Harvest Ministries.

    Hayford, Stearns, and ICA apostles including Messianic Dan Juster, provide coordination of support for the Messianic movement (Jews who convert but retain Jewish identity) in Israel and worldwide. Hayford is founder of The King’s Seminary which now has a charismatic Messianic division. Stearns is also a director of John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel, and although Hagee still teaches a dispensational theology, many of the other leaders of CUFI are major figures in the New Apostolic Reformation including Stephen Strang of Stang Communications and publisher of Charisma, who is an ICA apostle.

    Also see these recent articles on the New Apostolic Reformation:

    Rick Warren Dissertation Advisor Leads Network Promoting Uganda Anti-Gay Bill

    Movement Behind Uganda’s “Kill the Gays” Bill Organizing in Newark

    Video Exposes Anti-Gay Western Theocratic Effort “Transforming” Uganda

    Generational Curses, Deliverance Centers and the Kingdom Health Care System

    GOP Senator SAM Brownback’s Condo-mate Encourages Domestic Terrorism

    GOP’s New Prayer Guru Says Gays Possessed By Demons

    Sections to be added to the Resource Directory include lists of New Apostolic ministry websites, lists of charitable and faith-based entities under the umbrella of NAR, books by and about the New Apostolics, and other resources.

  76. Fatihlift – “don’t appreciate Bentley” what in the world is there to appreciate about him?
    It is absolutely biblical to speak against and stop those who teach false doctrine. The problem is that not enough do this or when they do they are not taken seriously. And so our very faith, all that encompasses Christianity, is wrecked.

    The whole affair and divorce situation was very sad and I have heard it was not his first fling. Whether it is or is not isn’t the issue, nor is the divorce. It is a smoke screen to keep people from seeing what a complete false teacher and prophet he truly is, and all those who go along with and support him – Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones- the list is much longer. This is a prime example of bad trees bearing bad fruit. The whole world is watching!

    Those men who rebuked him did the right thing. Todd is such an actor and so full of pride all he could do was speak down to them. But those listening and those watching the videos will at least have a little piece of the truth and enough doubt planted in their minds that maybe they will cry out to God for answers or go running to their bibles for truth. His teachings are so very easily proved wrong by the word. I’ve done it, anyone else can too.

    Yes, I’ve seen blog and twitter comments from time to time of his bragging on food and pumping iron. Quite a life for someone who lives on the hard earned cash of others. It’s more of who he is – a big bag of pride and hot air.

    This is the purpose of the NAR, even tho Toddie may not perfectly fit that, the bottom line is the same. Many are flocking to these churches with who claim these great signs and wonders and supernatural experiences, having the gift of healing or one who sees truth in dreams and visions while leaving the true faith. Many are deceived and led astray, following these false teachers and prophets.

    This is the danger as they see these men as “fathers” of the faith, with great connection and purpose, but they are not. It is the great pull to believe another who has an anointing or mantle, one who hears and speaks for God, completely forgetting Jesus Christ, who died for their sins – the veil to the holy of holies having been torn in two – allowing one to one personal contact with Father God for all who believe, through the ongoing presence and power of the Holy Spirit. One person is not greater than the other in power, authority or calling. We are a body made up of many parts for many purposes, and Christ is the Head. That is the perspective they all leave behind. And so much more can be said of their folly.

    May Christ shine the light on the truth for those trapped in this darkness, for truly a veil has been covering their eyes and they have left their first love.

  77. specks,
    WOW. That was quite a piece of information. It shows how far-reaching the NAR truly is. Jesus said that His kingdom is not of this world, so whose kingdom are they building in His name????

    I was very happy to find out that the Wilderness Outcry hosted by Dutch Sheets, a big name in the NAR was cancelled due to lack of funds.

  78. Luke 6:39 “…….Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?”

    A Note From Rick Joyner:

    “When one goes through the kind of restoration Todd has been through over the last year and a half you usually come out stronger in basic Christian disciplines and character than ever. I feel that is certainly the case with Todd. However, I was surprised by the depth, power, and the impartation of the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit that was immediately present when we released Todd into limited local ministry. I expect this School of the Supernatural to release everyone who attends into a new level of walking in the power of the Holy Spirit, as well as a new depth of understanding in this. I will be there myself. Rick Joyner”

  79. Yuck. Yuck yuck yuck.

    The utter and brazen lack of decorum in trying to grab the chance to deceive again.

  80. Mkayla, let’s put it this way, there is not much chance of people being successful with attempts to disrupt meetings this way. It is outrageous, pointless and counterproductive. It has a reverse effect on the audience. I am not a supporter of Todd’s ministry, as anyone would know on this blog.

    The Australian list of ICA ‘Apostles’ is quite ludicrous! I know many of the people on the list, and, whilst they’re good Christians, very few of them could actually be said to be Apostlic. Some don’t even run a church. let alone churches. One has a weblink to a pump company! This is getting ridiculous!

    The article s&p published above is the same tired reproduction of downloaded lists. It has no doctrinal content whatsoever. No Biblical critique. It is totally unconvincing to anyone but those who have already made up their minds about their position on NAR.

    I started this journey when saint at dogfightatbankstown published his GoogleGod list of ministries, many known to me, and challenged his assertion of links by association, and therefore his assertion that they were all off the wall, when it was known to me that many are not. This is exactly the same Google hit and miss lazy journalism and criticism.

    Do some decent homework, and make the decision not to merely trawl the net for long winded lists which support your theories.

    It took me around ten minutes to check the list of Australian ICA ‘Apostles’, and determine that only four or so would barely qualify! Put some effort into it!

  81. S&P – that was an amazing list of information.

    I noticed that the ‘paid prayer warriors’ surfaced again – we’ve commented on those here before. A new, strange development. People being paid to pray?? Outsourcing the prayer for your business? Something just seems not right with that.

    It was also interesting to see that Apostolic covering is substituted for secular accreditation:

    “ACEA The Apostolic Council for Educational Accountability

    The ACEA is Wagner’s “creative alternative to accreditation” and is under the apostolic covering (or authority) of Leo Lawson. The ACEA has no interest in secular accreditation which they see as a hindrance to their mission.”

    With secular education dismissed, uneducated people with the title of Apostle will be supporting and overseeing things, unaware of the dangers of what they are dealing with at times. Reminds me of the Mercy Ministries debacle. This could – will – be very dangerous and harmful to many people. They seem to not recognise that God has revealed truths from His creation to mankind over time, including much knowledge in the secular world. It rejects the gifts God has placed in the community at large. Its another kind of false and unbalanced teaching.

    I noticed the mention that Wagner’s wife is the most senior female Apostle. Just like we find pastor’s wives (or husband’s I guess) so frequently being made ‘pastor’s’ themselves. While there are exceptions to this (and I’ve seen those myself), surely there is a problem when so often people are given powerful ministry positions just because they are married to someone else who is powerful. What about other suitably gifted people in the church who are passed over because the position is filled by a possibly less gifted relation of the senior leader? Of course we see this all the time. At first glance, this seems replicated in the NAR.

    It is awful that their reason for wanting ‘dominion’ over businesses is all about transferring wealth to God’s Kingdom. So do these businesses have no value in themselves, other than their money, in terms of being light in society? Is their money not already being used for God’s Kingdom by doing the things that businesses do in a way that is enlightened by the revelation of Christ? Such as employing people, treating workers and clients ethically and kindly, delivering the best quality they can accomplish, and basically serving, not dominating.

    When did Christ’s message become one of domination rather than service?

    NAR may not succeed of course. Many people are highly cynical about the way they present things, including televangelists etc, and won’t go near that style of faith. Nonetheless, they do seem to be trying to transform Christianity into something different from what we see in the NT. The authority given to the Apostles and their prophecies helps this, as people can push scripture into the background as old or superseded revelation which the prophecies ‘build’ upon.

    Seems to me the best service we can give to any new Christians, is to encourage them to read their bibles for themselves, and not to be afraid to test everything they hear against it, checking everything. Plus provide the opportunity for them to link up with others who see value in and are not threatened by asking questions as part of our walk.

  82. Thanks McKayla!

    I noticed Charon Stone is of the NAR.
    Now I see the Bentley Conneciton to the UK!

    Thanks for that list.

    Sharon Stone
    Christian International -Europe
    Anslow, Burton-Upon-Trent
    United Kingdom

  83. FL,

    you could be really helpful in this regard. Who shouldn’t be on the list and why?

    I agree with the idea that we shouldn’t print complete pages as a comment … unless it’s fairly short.

    Provide a link and a relevant passage … I can’t read it all.

    regarding Bentley … he should have gone back to his wife and dropped all public ministry for at least ten years (or for good). Trouble is, it’s the only way he can be a millionaire any time soon.
    Marrying an American allows him to stay in the USA and not get deported to Canada … where he would have no public ministry and no easy money.

    He may say he’s a believer but he really only believes in filthy lucre. Mammon is his god. Everything else he says is either made up or Satanic … take your pick.

    Me … I think it’s not satanic. In 20 years, he’ll do a Film expose like Marjoe Gortner.

    He’s a cynical liar.


  84. John G Lake Ministries (JGLM) is not associated with Cal Pierce’s Healing Rooms. Both make a point to say that each is not associated with the other. Cal Pierce’s Healing Rooms seem to be an offshoot of the Third Wave Neo-Charismatic Churches of California and they associated with the likes of the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship and Lakeland/Brownsville whereas Curry Blake seems to be more Pentecostal in extraction. From my reading Lake himself was of a Dowie-Zion Illinois/ Zion Faith Home and then Pentecostal extraction. And in consideration of the differences of emphasis my conclusion is that Lake and Blake are the closest.

    It however needs to be said that the local expression of the Healing Rooms might be best reflected in the behavior and insight of the local people running them.

    If you want to evaluate the teaching of JGLM I recomend a listen to the 19 part FREE series:

  85. Anybody Speaking against this man of God should read Mark 9:38-41. There the disciples come to Jesus and talk ill of a man who is driving out demons in Jesus’ name but not following them. Likewise, you who speak against Curry Blake are doing the same. You have your way of following the Lord. You are a different part of the body holding a different purpose. But Jesus reply is “nobody can cast our evil in My name then speak evil of me. Therefore he who is not against us is on our side.” what does this mean? This means if you are speaking against Curry Blake, or any person who offers prayers of healing for q sick person with the belief they have the authority to heal in Jesus’ name, you are speaking against the side Christ is on.

  86. I don’t think the scripture in Mark would apply to someone who makes a false claim of a gift. Either it’s there or not. The person referred to in Mark did perfom, these false healers claim the gift (power/authority) yet do not. Biblical healing was instantaneous to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. God is the only one who has the power over sickness and disease. Jesus having this authority because He is God, gave it to His disciples to continue to spread the gospel and build the church.

    The simplist way to find if a claimed healer truly is one is when/if the person is healed. I have yet to find one. Lots of claims, no proof. Sorry, but that’s the way it is. We are fallen, we are sinners and our bodies get sick, get old and will eventually fail. The most important thing is salvation and a true walk with the Lord, not physical healing. God is much more concerned with our spiritual being than our physical one. Our spirit will live on forever, but where?

  87. @Teddy, Never add Leonard Sweet to Curry Blake unless you want puke all over your new Dutch Sheets…….

  88. I love Curry Blake’s teaching. I think it a good balance of God’s grace and God’s power. My back and my wife’s leg was healed after another couple prayed for us two weeks ago.

    I have come to the realization that any church or minister that does not practice and perform healing, signs and wonders is to be avoided because they are unbiblical without signs and wonders to confirm the word they preach.

    Miracles and healings are the children’s bread. See: Matt. 15:26-28

    “But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.

    And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.

    Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

    Lord, give us this day our daily bread!

  89. About Curry Blake…Anyone that had a pentagram on their home page and claims to be a Christian should be approached with caution!

  90. Re: Generational Curses… folks, read your bible… you don’t even have to talk about the new Covenant to show that there’s no such thing. God dealt with it in Ezekiel 18, just read it..

    “Ezekiel 18
    The One Who Sins Will Die

    1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
    “‘The parents eat sour grapes,
    and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

    3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.
    ..etc…read the entire chapter…”
    …God told them to stop quoting that proverb.

    Re: Curry Blake, stop slandering him and actually listen to his teaching, read your Bible and then decide. He is not promoting NAR doctrine. If the NAR folks say Jesus is Lord does that mean we’re all promoting NAR stuff ?? Get my point ? There will always be an overlap with true and false teachers, so don’t lump everyone into the same basket… Jesus (not Curry) said believers would lay hands on the sick and they would recover.. waddya know Blake didn’t originate the idea. We (the body of Christ) have to stop watering down our Lord’s word because our experiences don’t line up with scripture.

    Exegesis is an attempt to discover the meaning of the text objectively.
    Eisegesis is importing a subjective meaning not present in the text into the text..

    Be an exegete… When the disciples experience didn’t line up with what Jesus said they could do he rebuked them for being “perverse and unbelieving” Luke 9:37-56… umm, so the fault was with the disciples, no ? Jesus sent out the 12 and then the 70 (note not just the 12) to heal the sick etc.. Why would Jesus say such things as *believers* would lay hands on the sick and they would recover.. umm you mean like everyone Lord ? Why would Jesus say crazy things like “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father” (John 14:12)..whoever believes in him… or “all things are possible to him who believes” (Mark 9) ..

  91. Greetings.
    My name is Curry Blake. It is amusing to see so much written about me or what I teach, especially by people that have never heard it.
    For the record, I do not believe in or promote the “Generational Curse” teaching. I was one of the first to speak out against the “Todd Bentley show” in Lakeland. I do not allow offerings to be taken during Healing Services. I have never had a “pentagram” on my website (It was an old time Sheriff’s badge my webmaster used as a template for our Bible School. I do not promote or endorse C. Peter Wagner’s ICA (because I do not agree with them theologically nor do I agree with paying for an title. (They charge $600/yr to be an “Apostle” with their endorsement.)
    I do not have nor claim John Lake’s “anointing”. I do not believe “anointings” (mantles) can be passed around like a business card.
    I do not claim to have “Lake’s angel” accompanying me (as Pierce does). I do not particularly like “healing rooms” and would rather Christians take healing to the people on the street. But since we use church buildings (also not scriptural) why not “healing centers”.
    As to my daughter’s death and raising… The doctor based his “diagnosis” on ekg and other medical tests that were performed when my daughter was admitted to the hospital. There were still some physical evidence, e.i.: two broke wrists, a crushed knee and a messed up face and head. It was the mercy and grace of God that raised her, not me. I just did what Jesus said to do. “Only believe”.
    As to the “climbing the apostolic ranks”??? I have no idea where that came from. I teach that any Christian is more powerful through Christ than the biggest devil. I teach that being a so-called “apostle, prophet, etc. does NOT give anyone more spiritual power, just more responsibility.
    Neither I, nor anyone associated with JGLM will ever tell anyone that if they are prayed for and then fail to receive healing, that it is their fault or that there is a hidden sin stopping their healing.
    Do I believe God wants everyone well (healed)? Yes, absolutely!
    I believe sickness is always represented in the Bible as under the curse and that it is always represented as a bondage and an oppression. I have seen many people healed, which makes it all the harder when one isn’t. I believe that according to the original greek manuscripts (or as close as we have to them) that the Bible clearly shows physical healing is in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus and that it is only by His stripes that we are accorded healing. We receive healing by the grace of God and we minister healing by the grace of God. I am not special in any way. If I thought I was, why would I try to teach people about healing? They couldn’t do it unless they were special too. So the whole “I’m special” thing is ridiculous. Do I think I’m “Christ”? LOL! But I am daily reckoning myself dead because (and so that) it is no longer I that live but Christ Who living in me.
    I appreciate all that came to my defense in this blog. But beyond setting the record straight, don’t worry about me, if this is the worst persecution I ever get, it doesn’t compare to what He did for me.
    For the record, I do not know of any group that I could be categorized with (other than the early Christians). I am not New Age, I’m not NAR, I’m not Word of Faith (I was, but I saw the excesses and the non-scriptural positions of some so I left, besides they did not have the answers to the questions or the problems I had). when people ask me what I am, I just say, “I am a Literal Biblicist”. (I think I invented that term). I believe the Bible Literally.
    Plus since most don’t know what that term means, it usually shuts them up until they find out.
    Most of my teachings can be heard for free on my website.
    Blessings to you all.
    If you have any questions for me:

  92. Thanks Curry. That clears things up. It’s a shame specksadplanks has left and can’t end this all with an apology for is presumptuousness.

  93. Again, I am from IAHR under Cal Pierce whose supposed predecessor was Lake. They do teach hidden sins or curses can cause illness or prevent a person from receiving healing. They also teach it is up to the person to “receive” the healing and to “keep” their healing.

    While healing by Christ is shown in the bible there are other scriptures which state some were left sick by Paul. Physical healing does not go hand in with salvation. If it did we would be healed upon repentance. It is THAT simple.

    Thanks all.

  94. I think you’ll find that it is Jesus, not Paul, who heals, and, according to prophecy, his own words, as well as ministry evidence, healing is available to all who believe, just as salvation is available to those who believe.

    Paul was a vessel, not the source. Those he mentions as having illness of some kind were not in any way proof that God does not heal certain people, rather that they were ill at some stage in their lives. Making a doctrine out of fatherly advice, such as ‘take a little wine for your stomach’s sake’, to mean something it doesn’t, is dangerous.

    Better to observe the way healing took place under Jesus’ ministry, or in the Book of Acts.

    Since Jesus is the Healer, we should take note of his ministry and his teaching. Today it is the Holy Spirit, One the same as Jesus, the very Spirit of Christ, who heals, through believers, in His name.

  95. I did not say that the IAHR didn’t teach generational curses. I said I, Curry Blake do not teach them, nor does John G. Lake ministries (JGLM) of which I am the General Overseer. Pierce, Healing Rooms Ministries, and the IAHR are in no way associated with me, JGLM, or John Lake. They even say so on their website. They try to ride Lake’s coattails when it benefits them, but cannot legally use his name. The lies they’ve told about the Rookery Building, and the grave laying should be eNough for anyone to know to avoid them.
    Over half of the healing rooms listed on their site don’t even exist.
    I enjoy this site when people are honest with what they post.
    There is way too much heretical teaching in many camps.
    We must be like the Bereans and search the scriptures for the truth, proving what is true, even if it goes against the position we have taken.
    I deal with Paul’s Thorn and with his leaving co-workers “sick” in several of my teachings – see: “Removing Paul’s Thorn”.
    The issue of physical healing being provided and available for all is dealt with in:
    “Healing in the Atonement” and the Divine Healing Technician Training
    (available for free on my website).
    If everything that is provided for us through Jesus’ sacrifice automatically happened at the new birth, there would never be a reason to pray for anything, and if something is not provided throught the atonement then it does no good to pray because the atonement is the basis of our receiving anything from God.

  96. I thought the IAHR was associated with Lake, at least while I was involved with them they claimed to be. The directors I worked under were ordained thru JGLM some years ago. I wasn’t trying to be dishonest, only stating what I and others had been told. When people twist the scripture as often as they have, being less than truthful about historical events would not be a far stretch.


  97. I agree Steve, S&P should make an apology here.

    It is becoming a common theme when individuals seek to appropriate the ‘mantle’ of a well known minister and claim some kind of link to them.

    The only link we should be concerned with is the link to Father God.

    Oh … and I am really, really tired.


  98. If the post at the top has been shown to be false (I haven’t reread it but its sounds possible), an administrator could delete it. S&P is probably not even reading this blog any more.

    Curry Blake, if you read this, thanks for coming on and clarifying what you believe.

    Sometimes, you get all kinds of things happening within movements, or places connected to them, that go under the radar of the official teachings. I’ve known ministries which taught generational curses, and books, which some congregation members were into, even when the pastors weren’t. These days, there’s such a cross over, with so many kinds of media, that in any one church, you are likely to find a spectrum of teachings not taught in the pulpit. But sometimes they are.

    I think there are some teachings which have a kind of appeal to people, a bit like people’s attraction to sensational news journalism. Generational curses are a bit like that. Oooo – so and so’s great great grandfather was a freemason. No wonder they have suicidal thoughts. And so on. Kind of fascinating for people to speculate about.

    Ah well. I’m just looking in.

  99. Good point RP. I will address this later today. I think it is only fair to keep the post but add a retraction to the substantive points along with a pointer to the bottom of the thread as Curry graciously came on to give us what he actually believes and preaches.

    II have to say that his attitude on here is exemplary.


  100. The fact that Curry Blake a minister talked about here on this site would come and post his corrections to what has said about him simply and clearly but without a hint of anger or rebuke or judgement is one of the most encouraging things I have seen in a long time.

    Curry Blake, you have my profound respect. Truly amazing.
    You could have taken a totally different approach, or just cursed the posters in a sermon – but you took the time to give a simple explanation. One of the most gracious things I’ve seen on a website. If only more people could do that.

    I’ll remember your example.

  101. SM, you do know that’s not Richard Dawkins, don’t you. All these new characters are the same person.

  102. Bones, yes of course I know that. Just thought I’d reply to a post using the name used.

    What else do I call him? There’s been about a dozen names used.

  103. btw, completely unrelated, but there’s a good article on Christianity Today about Rwanda and the increase in Pentecostal churches for anyone interested in Rwanda, Pentecostalism, forgiveness, and liturgy vs free expression.

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  106. did the DHT training with John G lake Ministries and realised they preach “Word of Faith” theology mixed with “Dominionism” so I left…. its another Gospel….

  107. Fact: There is not a single person living today that can verify or deny the testimony of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible.
    Fact: The Bible is the only reliable record available to us, written by witnesses to the life and work of Jesus Christ.
    Fact: Every word written in the Bible is inspired by God and is true and immutable (cannot change or expire).
    Accepting that these three things are true, then we must assume that:
    1. God is not a liar.
    2. The Bible is God’s Word and is immutable
    3. Every promise and blessing for those who believe in Jesus are true and exactly as written.

    So why is it so hard to believe what we read in the Bible? There are no Gnostic secrets – what you see is what you get. All means “ALL”, whosoever means “EVERYONE or ANYONE”, shall means “YES YOU WILL DEFINITELY, ALWAYS and EVERY TIME” … either we believe the Bible – all of the Bible for what it Literally means, or we call God a liar and just believe the half verses and the things we want to believe – but don’t stop there, might as well tear out all of the stuff that you don’t believe, or black them out with a permanent marker.
    Religious teaching would steer you away from the truth, but if you really started to believe what you were reading, then a metamorphosis will begin, Romans 12:2. You will understand the truth about sonship, prayer, healing, miracles, faith… all the stuff that religions contend is written plainly and clearly. If God wrote it, then it must be true. If it is true, then I’ll believe it.
    If we can not have this one book as the legacy of God’s love for what he had created in His own image, as the foundation of our faith, then there is no hope for the human race on earth.
    Without the hope of mercy from the creator, then redemption is left to the next highest authority which is fallen man, with his laws and regulations and bondage. Only the promise of Divine Grace and mercy can give us a hope and a future – and the Bible (God’s word of truth) promises that for ALL THOSE who BELIEVE, but wait, there’s more, and these signs and wonders SHALL (definitely, always and every time) follow ALL THOSE who BELIEVE, but wait, even more!.. and you will be filled with THE SAME Spirit that rose Christ from the dead, and even more, You WILL BE Born Again into the family of God, as His Son and a brother and heir to His Kingdom, seated together in Jesus at the right hand of God.

    Now I wish that I could say that I made that stuff up, cause it sounds really neat, but I can’t, because God wrote it in His Book, and every word of it is true, and every word of it IS FULFILLED for whosoever (anyone and everyone) believes.
    If it is in the Bible, then that means that God wrote it, so I’ll believe it, because it is true. If it isn’t in the Bible, then it has been written by man – whom would you trust?

  108. Who do you think wrote it EYES?

    The Bible wasn’t beamed down from heaven and found gift wrapped under a bush.

    I’d say there are hundreds of authors who have put their input into what’s in the Old Testament.

    Some got things wrong and contradicted each other.

    So to say God wrote the Bible is to believe in a God who is contradictory and errant.

  109. “Is God allowed to do anything?”

    Not when it doesn’t conform to my image of God or how I think He should act.

    He has to stay in His box.

  110. “.. it doesn’t conform to my image of God or how I think He should act.”

    So how big is this box in your soul that has God confined? Are you, man of clay, greater than the creator? Why is it that God must conform to your image? How do you think He should act? I’m sure He would love to hear what you, man of clay would have to tell Him.!

  111. So bones, mate, take a chance, go on mate, I dare you… open the box and let God be. Do you want to have your head stuck in the ground? or do you want the truth? Do you want to take the red pill, or the blue pill? If you take the blue pill, then you wake up, still only convicted of your own sin and still trying to be good enough for God… But if you take the Red Pill, then your eyes will be opened to the truth, and you’ll see how deep this rabbit hole goes…

  112. Dunno Joe, o man of clay. Some of us have outgrown Sunday School notions like ‘God wrote the Bible’.

    1 Corinthians
    11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

    How big’s your box?

  113. Joe (aka man of clay) which pills are you on buddy?

    The little white pills make you feel good for a little while.

    You can always tell when someone’s off their meds.

  114. My God is not in a box. I let him out when I opened the Bible and read it for myself, earnestly seeking the truth. From your comments, you are just looking for a contest – I will not give into petty argument.
    The truth is there to be found in the pages of His Book. This is the point, don’t assume too much with petty remarks about Sunday School that only reflect immaturity and childhood taunts.
    Metamorphosis, Bones. A new creature, 2Cor 5:17 not a man of clay.

    Now you take a cheap shot at my illustration of Morpheus from the Matrix? Really? So who is off their meds?

  115. Good on you, Joe.

    God bless you bro.

    Forgive me for my rudeness before.

    Joe I haven’t seen the Matrix in years. From what I remember I think I’d have to be on meds to understand it.

    “The truth is there to be found in the pages of His Book.”

    That’s true. But God inspiring the biblical writers is not the same as God writing it.

  116. Yes, that’s right, and I remember writing a paper on Biblical Sensus Plenior (Deeper Meaning) for an assignment in Biblical Interpretation and I recall that it was important to think along the lines that all scripture is written by the spirit of God, through the hand of man. as Origen wrote: “…the Scriptures were written by the Spirit of God, and have a meaning, not such as is apparant at first sight, but also another, which escapes the notice of most. For those (words) which are written are the forms of certain mysteries,…” (“The Works of Origen” de Principiis, 8. Origen, c 185-254ce)

    Where modern theology fails is that it is far removed – not only by so many centuries in time, therefore too in circumstances and culture, but also very often in the world of thought (Fee, GD “Gospel and Spirit” 1991)

    Hey I have done the study, got the grades, got the papers, but still didn’t find the truth in my own heart, till I threw away all the stuff taught by man and started looking for the truth.

    I saw men like Wigglesworth and Lake, Blake and Hogan – doing 1st century signs and wonders, while even though my lecturers could give beautiful oratory and explain the deepest mysteries of theology, they couldn’t even heal a nose-bleed, let alone raise the dead!

    So I read James, then Romans, then went to Acts and kept going till I got to αρχη and τελοσ. Then I started back at the gospels again and went through again. Each time more and more became revealed. I had to take the Bible literally for what it says looking only for the quadriga when I came upon parables or phrases that included the words “… is like …”

    The average daily newspaper today, would contain more information it it than a first century Christian would accumulate in an entire lifetime, so the Gospel message was not that complicated. It is religion and tradition that has complicated the message.

    There IS power in the Gospel of the Truth of Christ. as soon as the truth starts to come to the surface, then a sense of liberty begins to overwhelm you – I feel like I’ve just sculled a 6 pack of Red-Bulls – and you soar to dizzying heights of understanding.

    I have been a Christian for nearly 40 years, but only in the past 12 months have I actually seen with my very own eyes, miraculous healing, answered prayer, prophecy fulfilled… I have brought more people to Christ and healed more people in the past 12 months than the previous 4 decades of praying and listening to theology taught by man!

    So, yes. The Bible is written by the Spirit of God, through the hands of man. Jesus said “…I am the truth…” (John 14:6) If you read it for the literal truth, then the truth WILL set you free. The Son will set you free, and if the Son sets you free, then you will be free indeed. (John 8:36)

  117. So you like 1 Corinthians 11, do you Bones. Are you sure that this scripture has not been compromised over the years? Maybe you should try the ‘Bible for dummies’.

  118. After the Benny Hinn circus, I’m over ‘signs and wonders’ being anything to do with God.

    Matthew 24
    24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

    Some of us believe without seeing ‘signs and wonders’.

  119. { After the Benny Hinn circus, I’m over ‘signs and wonders’ being anything to do with God. }

    Have you seen the smackdown version of ‘let the bodies hit the floor’.Notice at about 41 sec mark, Hinn throws a jacket (i think) at some dude. Hope there wasn’t a brick rapped up in it.

  120. Too right Bones, but signs and wonders are not for the believers, they are for un-believers. I have spoken to many people who have turned away from the Church an God, because they saw weak and ineffective teaching and zero results. There was no demonstration of the Power of God because there was no proclamation of the truth of the gospel of Christ. (Rom 1:16-17)

    As soon as I prayed for His Kingdom to come and for His miraculous power to be manifest, the Kingdom of God would come and rest on the new convert and irreversibly change them from within. Not my will, but His will, here on earth, just as it is in Heaven.

    Signs and wonders are no way near as spectacular than to have a miserable filthy sinner on their knees in true repentance before a loving God. Now that is Power to be reckoned with.

    As for Matthew 24… I have been to places where “Gold Dust” has floated down from the “Glory Cloud”… Fits right in between the lines in that verse… the saddest part about those “Shows” is that people put their faith and trust in people who manufacture those events.
    1 Cor 2:3-5 When I go to the supermarket or out into the street, it is with fear and trembling, but have a huge earnestness to demonstrate the Spirit and Power, so that the faith does not rest on my words, but in the Power of God.

  121. Smackdown! I used to have a pair of socks that would knock people off their feet like he does with his coat!

  122. @Bones

    “If it is in the Bible, then that means that God wrote it


    I agree Bones. When Christians have this notion that “if it’s in the bible then it came out of God’s mouth” they obviously have no real idea how to rightly divide the word of truth. I mean, let’s get real here. Nebuchadnezzar wrote some of the book of Daniel. Was God speaking through him? Paul quotes from a Greek pagan poem. Was that from God? What about what Job and his friends said? We need to use that several kilos of grey matter between our ears when we read our bibles. This notion that everything in the bible was written by God is responsible for so much bad doctrine in the church. 1 Corinthians 11 is a case in point. Does God really demand that women wear hats in church? Come on!

  123. Good point Roundhouse. And I agree too. So what we have here is stuff that has already been discussed: Introduction to Biblical Interpretation 101.
    These scholars and biblical exegetes were well schooled in philosophy, mythology and rhetoric, and operated in the traditional milieu of allegorical interpretation of divine oracle. Having received instruction in this manner, they often saw meanings in scripture other than the literal. They would read the literal text as metaphor, analogy, anagogy, and allegory, searching ever deeper, in an effort to extract hidden secrets from the divine words. St Augustine of Hippo and Origen (as well as many other notable scholars) believed that God veiled deeper mysteries under the literal text. (LaSor, 1986: 53,54)
    By about the fifth century, this allegorical approach became the basis of the quadriga (four horse chariot) which outlined four meanings to every OT text:
    1. The literal meaning. What the author actually meant in the text.
    2. The allegorical meaning. The ‘most important basis for doctrine.’
    3. The tropological meaning. Which specified the moral implications of the text.
    4. The anagogical meaning. Which provided the eschatological focus of the text.
    These four meanings looked mainly at the distinction between the “literal” and “spiritual” sense of the text. Thomas Aquinas (cited by Moo, 1986) approached this relationship of the literal and spiritual senses by establishing that the Bible is the only book with a human and Divine author, so he determined that “[t]he literal sense is based on the words of Scripture…” including words that “…may signify by means of metaphor, symbolism.” He goes on to say that in the spiritual sense “…is found in the things to which the words refer.” (Moo, 1986: 182)
    A void exists between our present situation as 21st century Bible Students and the authors of the original texts. The texts are ‘occasional documents’ “…written out of the context of the authors to the context of the recipients.” (Fee, 1991:7) Gordon Fee continues in saying that the reason for difficulty in interpretation is because “…we are removed from them not only by so many years in time, and therefore in circumstances and culture, but also very often in the world of thought.” (ibid)
    A common sense approach to biblical interpretation is outlined by Fee, where he lists three steps to overcoming these difficulties. He suggests that we must look at: a.) the original social, political and geographic setting of the author, so we can get a picture of the mentality and depth of understanding of both the author and the intended recipients.
    b.) the word of God that addressed the original situation, particularly when the context reflects a problem or lack of understanding that requires correction or enlightenment, and,
    c.) the same word as it is addressed to our own situation. “If these words are going to he God’s word to us, then we must first of all hear what God’s word was to the original recipients.”(ibid: 7,8)
    From these three steps, we recognize that the first task is to find the original meaning the author conveyed – not what it means to us today. “The hermeneutical task is to free the word to speak to our own situation.”(ibid: 20)
    There have been many arguments against the use of sensus plenior as a hermeneutical method. However, when the whole canon of scripture unfolds, the understanding of a passage of scripture becomes deeper and clearer in the light of the whole Bible. The “…sensus plenior must be distinguished from allegory [and] does not consist of unbridled, imaginative eisegesis and the reading into a text of [a] symbolic meaning…” (Oss, 1988: 106)

    References: (Fee, GD “Gospel and Spirit” (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson, 1991)

    La Sor, WS “A Guide to Contemporary Hermeneutics, Authority and Canon” (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1986)

    Moo, DJ, Carson, DA and Woodbridge, JD eds. “Hermeneutics, Authority and Canon” (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1986)

    Oss, DA “Canon as Context: The Function of Sensus plenior in Evangelical Hermeneutics” in Grace Theological Journal (9.1: 1988) )

    So basically, the three rules to follow are 1. Context, 2. Context and 3. Context. Once you pull something out of context, then you start to lose the original meaning. How many times have you seriously heard teaching from Daniel where the Pastor has been quoting what Nebuchadnezzar had written? And hats in Church? Have you ever been to a Queensland Apostolic Church?

    C’mon Roundhouse, give me something I can work with! Either you believe the Bible to be the inspired work of God, or it is just another book on your shelf of humanistic prophecy and new-age theosophy.

    Get some nuts man! Make a stand! Either you are a Bible believing, Born Again new creation Son of God, or you are a just another pussy-wussy wanna-be, that just wants to argue for the sake of hearing your own voice!

  124. Joe have you ever healed anyone of Alzheimers or had someone’s limb grow back.

    Or are all your healings headaches, sore backs and one leg shorter than the other?

  125. Cerebral Palsy, Lung Cancer, Leukaemia, Severe Staff infections, broken bones, eyes, ears, throats, and several others, and yes, headaches, backs, Carpal Tunnel, coughs and colds, but never Alzheimers or limbs growing back.
    But that is not the most exciting. To pray for someone who has just given their life to the Lord and to see a complete and total metamorphic change in them, that is the most amazing thing to witness. I see healing as only a minor way in God’s scheme to grab a person’s attention and demonstrate His POWER! Bones are you in Adelaide? If so, why don’t you come with me to the East Wing of the RAH (that is Oncology and Radiology unit) tomorrow evening? There is a very dear person that we (myself and a younger person) will be praying for who is very very sick. I’m confident that My God, – Jehovah Raphah – will set this dear mother free!

    Bones, it is not because I want another notch in my gun, but I just want to do His will. Lester Sumrall told a story of a dream where all the nations on were earth walking down a highway and into a lake of fire, God told him that he was responsible for these people because he did not want to tell them the truth of the Gospel of Christ.
    Regardless of Sumrall’s theology, the fact is that we, as Christians and believers, have been commissioned to go into all the world and set the captives free. Matt 10:7-8 “And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons: freely ye received, freely give.”
    I want to live my life with this as the most important thing – this is the mission! Not to argue petty points of theology and Biblical Interpretation, when over a billion people will go to sleep tonight without food in their stomach or a roof over their head.
    “Freely you have received, Freely give…” God is my provider – Jehovah Jirah, if I see someone in need, then the Holy Spirit within me COMPELS me to help them – without question, without pause. Usually on a daily basis – I cannot help myself, if I see a car on the side of the highway, I stop. If I see someone struggling, I offer my assistance. If I see someone in a wheelchair, I offer my prayers.

    I have seen many miraculous healings, and I have also prayed for many people that have not been healed. The first 10 or 20 people I prayed for saw no results at all, I felt like I had lost and was reading the Bible wrong, but I didn’t give up! Toward the end of 2011, a man I worked for went into hospital for bone-marrow and stem-cell treatment for Leukaemia. I prayed for him and he was completely and totally healed. Then I was told that it must have been the treatment that the Doctors had given him, as an attempt to try to discount the work of God, but later found out that by the time he had gone in for the treatment, he was already cancer free.
    Every time I see healing occur right in front of my eyes, it bolsters my faith to a much higher level, and humbles me even more. I do not feel in the slightest way worthy of being blessed by the greatest being in the Universe to carry this gift to heal people, BUT, He has chosen me and He does use me. If you were sitting outside a supermarket, sick and dying of a terminal cancer and someone with the power of Divine Healing walked by, wouldn’t you want them to lay hands on you and offer a prayer of healing? How is it that I can refuse?

    If you had the power to set a person free from the bondage of satan, then how could you walk by and ignore them? Luke 10:1-24

  126. I take the Commission of Christ very, very seriously. Everyone at my workplace knows of my earnestness and everyone knows that I can heal them supernaturally by the Divine Power of Christ, and the punishment he bore for us all at the whipping post – BEFORE he was crucified. Psalm 103 Blessed be the Lord my God who forgives all our sins and heals all our diseases – and that was written by David, even before Isaiah 53!

    Please don’t mock me my friend, I take this very seriously. You are welcome to witness this for yourself!

  127. @Joe

    Regarding your reply to my post, you use lots of big words, but don’t really say much. You have obviously studied theology at a bible college. You poor thing! Studying theology always leads to relying upon methods and a propensity to spout religious terminology. For me, I prefer to study scripture using the ultimate lexicon and concordance – the Holy Spirit! I find that rather than relying upon a prejudiced interpretation of a scripture by some long-dead theologian, the Holy Spirit will reveal deeper truths than those I can gain from the writings of Origen or Augustine. Don’t get me wrong, if I am having trouble understanding a scripture I will certainly refer to concordances and other study aids, but I find that most times the truth within a passage is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

    As for your second post regarding the healings you have seen, I have seen similar healings as well. My advice to you though is don’t engage Bones in a debate about miracle healings. Unless he can see actual medical records and before and after x-rays, he won’t believe anything you say regarding healing. And even then, with irrefutable evidence right in front of him, he will still deny that healing and miracle still occur today. See, he’s never seen it or experienced it himself, therefore according to him it doesn’t exist!

  128. Left bones an invitation to come out with me, but I have been thinking that may not really be such a good idea. I take this very seriously and very spiritually – I don’t want to prove something just to make a point. Faith is by believing, not by seeing. Either I would end up punching someone out if they just wanted to tag along for a sideshow, or God would hit them so hard they would not be able to keep up with what was going on in this world and the spiritual realm.

    I spent too long at college, and began feeling like a mass produced smart phone that knew all the right answers but couldn’t think outside of those constraints. It was only when I began to take the Bible for what it is that I began to understand what it was about and believe what it said. This is what set me free. The truth.

  129. Joe, I’d love to join you in Adelaide. Sadly I’m in regional Queensland and am experiencing more flooding after a record flood in January.

    Keep going at Royal Adelaide.

    You might have it cleared out by the end of the year.

  130. Cerebral Palsy, Lung Cancer, Leukaemia, Severe Staff infections,

    Uhm… I being too soft by saying, “I think not”?

    Back up your claims with verifiable evidence Joe. Of course you will say something along the lines of – “what would be the point, you won’t believe the evidence I provide” If you give us names and contact details or medical records we will believe your claims of healing.

    Then I was told that it must have been the treatment that the Doctors had given him, as an attempt to try to discount the work of God, but later found out that by the time he had gone in for the treatment, he was already cancer free.

    That is just patently false – if he was cancer free he wouldn’t have required treatment – and it is impossible to verify that someone was cancer free before treatment after they’ve had treatment – you’re claims lack the ring of credibility to me Joe.

  131. I have definitely seen limbs grow before my very eyes and can verify this claim with names and contact details and medical records so that others can believe my claims of these miracles.
    If you want me to, Greg.

  132. yes I do…you’re talking about limbs that wer’tn there previously of course? Or are you talking about the old scheister trick of leg lengthening?

    I was however speaking to Joe who claimed to have prayed for and seen somneone healed of Cerebral Palsy…a claim I refute

  133. First i was a sperm,then later my arms and legs grew and me fingers and toes popped and me doodle flopped out and me balls dropped.
    Up until i was about 18 years, i observed growth especially in my%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
    Still to this very day observing growth in my%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
    How miraculous is that!
    Want more proof?

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