Steve Warren Fleeces C3 Amsterdam; Pringle Wants Jet from C3 Atlanta!

I’m lost for words. This has been up on C3 Global for nearly 3 MONTHS! C3 ENDORSES THIS TEACHING from Steve Warren!

This is Steve Warren. Do not forget his face. We thought Dave Sumrall’s sermon to C3 students and staff was bad. This has to be one of C3’s worse sermons ever. Thank you to the anonymous person who emailed me this link. I finally finished transcribing this sermon.

Remember: Phil Pringle endorsed this man!

(Phil Pringle’s article is in the comment section below this long article. I will also be dedicating this page to quotes from some of his books.)

Watch the sermon here: http://www.c3churchglobal.com/video/work-your-miracle

“I just want to spend a few moments positioning ourselves for that breakthrough. It’s what we’re gonna do. We’re going to take up an offering in just a moment. And for some of you here this morning, this offering is going to be the moment that’s going to cause a breakthrough for you. This is our regular offering. You put your tithes and your offerings into this offering. But for some of you this will be a miracle offering. A miracle moment.

Do you know as I’ve prepared this morning, I’ve not been able to escape this fact, that nearly every example of breakthrough in scripture has been preceded by some level or some sort of sacrifice. The healing thing is different. I found an extraordinary grace two weeks ago as we were praying for healing.  It’s like – what ever you’ve done, whatever you’ve been through, God’s grace is there. He wants your body fixed up.

But when it comes to break through, very often there is something we have to do to position ourselves to receive the breakthrough. There are some things we have to do to work at breakthrough. So if you’re looking for sort of economic-type breakthrough this morning (Housing, finance or jobs – those sort of things), you may find this morning that God speaks to you about some sort of financial sacrifice that you’re going to have to make.

I’d love it if there was some other way to make this work. I would love it if we can lay hands on people and miracles would just drop into their lives. We will pray. At the end of the service we will pray for everybody and lay hands on them.

And I believe miracles will drop into our lives. But there is something we need to do to unlock that miracle. There is something we need to do to prepare ourselves. And here’s just one story I want to take you through very quickly this morning… (2:48)

[Starts reading out 2 Kings 4:1 Elisha and the Widow]

This was a bad day for that widow. She was in debt. She could see no way out but to sell her sons into slavery. Have you ever been in debt and see no way out?  That is exactly what it feels like. It’s slavery. If you’re in a job that you hate and it is not meeting the needs of every week; and feel trapped; feel like there’s no way out; if you get this constant sense of guilt and you don’t know why… Condemning conscience… You feel trapped and you don’t know why…

When you have this dream of your business succeeding… you get it started… Two years have gone by and this dream seems like an impossibility. All you can see is six long, long days of work every single week, working every hour possible. Still you’re earning less money then you did when you were working for someone. And yet you got a dream to franchise your business, have others working for you. It feels like you’re trapped between a dream of a future and the past you don’t want to go back to. Many of you may not be that right now you’re in a desperate situation, but still you’ve got a dream of a future that you want to see come to pass. Your current situation may be absolutely fine. But here this morning, God may just want to plan a  dream of something bigger for your life in the future. There is something bigger in my future that (wife’s name) and I want to see.

We’re gonna put it, something that’s sacrificial for us in the offering in just a moment. It’s not because of our lives or because there is anything wrong with our lives right now. But because we have a dream of something bigger that we want to see unlocked. We’re going to give an offering that’s going to cause us to have to walk on water. To- It’s a good place to be.

When Peter got out of the boat he didn’t know the water was going to hold him up. That was no guarantee. He stepped out on one word. Elisha had a word for this widow. He says to her later in this passage, “You will find your debt cancelled if you just do what the Lord God is saying to you right now”.

[Continues reading out 2 Kings 4:1 Elisha and the Widow]

What is your jar of oil here this morning? What is it you’ve got in your hand that’s a lease within the realm of your control that you can do to unlock something from heaven into your life?

[Keeps reading from scripture] “Then he said, “Go borrow vessels from everywhere, from all your neighbours, empty vessels. Do not gather just a few”.”

You need oil? I’m going to need bigger vessels. She had enough oil for the vessel she had. But it wasn’t enough oil to meet the needs of her life. So Elisha goes. It’s not really the oil that is the problem, it’s the vessels that are a problem. Do you know what he says? “Go borrow some. You may not have the capacity in your own mind that seems big enough to contain all that God has for you.”

If you’re sitting here this morning, go “I’ve only got enough faith to keep on going, (undecipherable). That’s why we come to church on a Sunday morning: we borrow one another’s faith. We borrow bigger vessels.

My thinking is so big that when I stand in front of you guys my vision expands. My thinking increases. My capacity grows to contain more. When you sit here week in, week out, it’s okay to absorb, to catch, to borrow the increase capacity of those around you. Or the power of the combined force of a standing shoulder to shoulder. Think bigger when you’re in this atmosphere. You’ve got the oi, but you need the vessel. What am I going to pour it into? He borrows the vessels…

And he says, “And when you have come in you shall shut the door behind you and your sons. Then pour it into all these vessels and set aside the full ones. So she went from him and shut the door behind her and her sons, who bought the vessels to her and she poured it out”.

This miracle happened in private. Not even Elisha was in the room. It says she shut the door on him and went into that room with her two sons. It doesn’t matter how much I prayed for you this week. It doesn’t matter how many times we lay our hands on you this morning. It still comes down to the steps you take – here today!

Only you can unlock the miracle in your life. Only you in your private worlds can take the steps necessary for God to create the breakthrough. If you’re having financial troubles and you’re not tithing, I can’t solve that for you. It doesn’t matter how much I pray for you, you’re not going to get your breakthrough. Only you can make that decision privately.

I need to follow the steps the bible tells me to take to live in the goodness of God. I can’t do that for you. I can lend you some faith, you can borrow one of my vessels, you can borrow somebody else’s vessel, but ultimately you’re in a room on your own having to work your miracle, and that’s the sort of church I want: big people! Big enough to work our own solutions- come into the house and we find strength with one another and catch the word of god and go, “I can make this happen. I can do something about this. I can unlock a miracle. I can make life work for me.” You can work your miracle here this morning.

You can take a step and change your life. So she goes into the room… And it says… Somewhere here… I keep losing my place. I’m just so like- I’m ready to lay hands on you all. That’s what it is…

“So she went from him and shut the door…” That’s it! “And she POURED IT OUT!” That’s what she did with the oil! She TOOK the jar, and she BEGAN TO POUR IT OUT! I was trying to miss that bit ‘cos this is the painful bit. She TOOK THE VERY THING THAT SHE NEEDED and she BEGAN TO POUR IT OUT! She though, “This won’t take very long. There’s not much in that jar”. Then she began to pour, the oil didn’t stop. She expected the jar looking for the magic somewhere, tapping the bottom. Yet it’s solid jar! Where is it coming from? It just kept pouring! She dared not stop!

She was tempted to look in the jar to try work out where this thing’s coming from. To see whether the oil was glowing or some other magic thing was happening. But she dared not stop! She’s gotta keep pouring- something going on here!

When you begin to fill your breakthrough, don’t. stop. pouring! When you feel something go off in your spirit, DON’T STOP AT THAT POINT! When you feel like your giving is starting to cause a breakthrough, DON’T STOP GIVING! When you find yourself in debt, DON’T STOP TITHING!

At that very point, God just might be bringing your breakthrough, DON’T PULL BACK! When you feel victory coming in your spirit, don’t go “OOOOOHH!!! I’m afraid what my life might BE if I’m set free.”

I have seen people trip up over success as much as I have failure. Seems like us guys are wired this way. We seem to be performance driven. And it seems like just at that moment we’re tasting success we trip ourselves up. We’re scared what that success might feel like. You tast victory! You’re tasting that moment of freedom. And you’re tempted to pull back going, “I don’t know this life! This is a new me!”

This is a brand new life. Keep warring at the moment and don’t give up! Keep pushing! Whatever you do, don’t go, “Oh! What are people going to think of me if I become this new person?”

I use to be quiet… diplomatic… I used to make sure there was peace amongst everyone I was with and life was okay. I felt constrained. I felt like wasn’t really me. But life was sort of okay. If I step out and be a new me- start being a confident new me- what are people going to think of me? You begin to pull back. Don’t pull back! KEEP POURING!

At the moment your miracle begins to happen, she moves it from one vessel. She sees it’s starting to overflow. She puts it to the next one. The next one begins to fill. That fills up- and the next one… And the next one… This thing keeps POURING! She doesn’t know what to do with herself.

She’s beginning to get pretty excited! Her sons are getting happy! They don’t know what’s going on! They’re sticking their hands in the pots feeling this oil thinking it’s some magic fluid.

She keeps pouring. She gets to the last vessel. The oil rises and she’s beginning to think ‘What am I going to do now? This can be one very messy house if this thing doesn’t stop pouring. Then just as it gets to the brim- the top, the oil stops.

God will keep on pouring for as long as your capacity is there to handle what He is pouring into your life. You can dream as big as you like this morning! That’s what I am trying to say to you. YOU CAN DREAM- as big as you like, cos God desires to prosper his children. Psalm… 37 or somewhere. He delights in the prosperity of His children. It’s what the bible says.

I want you this morning to feel like the oil of the Holy Ghost is getting on your world. But it’s going to take a step. And only you can decide what that step is.

Sacrificial offering.

Once you’ve given that, you may still need tomorrow to get on the phones of companies that you think, your sort of job might be in. Something like 60% of jobs go before they’re advertised. Last week I said 80%. But I got my facts right during the week. 67% of statistics are made up on the spot, just like that one.

It does require us to do something. You may not be able to buy that house right now. Start looking! It’s a lot of fun, visiting properties you might like to buy to keep the dream alive. Start pushing doors. Sometimes I get people coming to me going, “Steve, I’ve seen this job or I’ve been offered this job. Is it the sort of thing I should take?” I am not the best person to ask. Cos the sort of person I am, that I’ve always been is, I push on absolutely every single door I can possibly imagine. And if it opens, I am walking through. It’s way easier that way.

It’s got a bright potential future and I’m into it. You may need to start pushing doors this week. You may have started a dream of that you not just get out of debt, but you’re able to invest. Open a savings account tomorrow and put one euro in it. It may stay as one euro for the next six months whilst you try to get yourself out of debt, but you would have started to activate something in the possibility of your thinking. You would’ve begun to unlock something in your ‘possibility thinking’. You hear me this morning? Is this making sense?

Elijah meets another widow. This widow, she has a bit of flour as well as the oil. She was doing a little better than this one. Elijah comes to her and says, “Hey, can you make me a cake with that flour and that oil?”. Actually what he says is, “Can I have some water?”.

Don’t you like God the way he sort’ve eases you in gently. He firsts ask for something she knows she can give him. But then he asks her to give him the rest. The truth is it was ‘in the rest’ the miracle came. You will find that your container of flour will not run dry if you make the sacrifice of giving away what you’ve got.

Right after that, her son dies. Elijah prays for her son and her son rises from the dead. You may sow flour this morning but you may reap a resurrection. Your need may not be an economic need. You may have some other needs. But still, something in this offering may be the sort of action that will unlock something of the answer in your life.

I wish it was some other way. But I haven’t discovered it yet. Action is always attached to your breakthrough. So I want us to give some thought to this right now. There are offering cards in your seat. I would only do this on a morning like this, but if you need a- if you don’t have the money on you right now and you want to make an IOU that you know that you can fulfill, you can write that on the card too.

But I want you to believe this morning; as you step out on water, as you give the flour or the oil or you go fishing like Peter, (you walking around the walls of Jericho going, “I am right out here right now. This looks crazy”), I know you’re miracle is going to happen.

God said these words to me this week:

“Steve. If you can get people to take a step, I will get them their miracle.”

Simple sort of process. Not a complicated equation other than a cost to someone. Just step into that zone. And do you know the interesting thing about the widow with the flour, is God said to Elijah, “Go to this widow and she will provide food for you. And I have already told her so.”

We usually read that story as is Elijah was being tough on her. But actually God had already spoken to her. You will know this morning. You will get a sense in your spirit about the sort of step God wants you to take. I’m not here saying you gotta do some sort of action. But I am here to present a challenge: what are you going to do to step out of the boat? How far do you need to go til you hit that measure of peace where God has spoken to me, about what I need to do to create a breakthrough in my world?

So why don’t we just prepare our offering right now?

As soon as we’ve done that, I’m gonna just ask you to come forward. If you’ve got something very specific in mind that you want a breakthrough for here today… We’re going to pray over people.

This stuff is impartational. I may not be able to give you your miracle, but I know when I went down to Presence in Sydney this year, I was telling Pastor Phil some of the things we’ve been seeing happening. And he said, “That got on you when you were in Sydney – it’s transferable”. No one laid hands on me. I had four days (raise hands near his shoulders), in a miracle (does magic fingers) environment. And ever since then I felt like miracles have been (clicks fingers twice) easy. It’s just… There’s miracles hanging in the air at church right now, ready to happen. All we have to do is set in our hearts a decision to engage with that. Amen?

If you need to talk to your husband or wife, that would be a very good idea. If you’re married that is. If you’re not married and you want to be married, just imagine yourself talking to your husband or wife. Activate the spirit of faith. I have known people who have found their marriage partner’s as they’ve given in to some sort of offering.

But Tim Lowe was here with Pastor Phil who gave a story like that. People who have got pregnant who couldn’t get pregnant after giving an offering like this: you may be sowing flour but you may get your resurrection. Amen! Why don’t we take a hold of our offering right now.

Father I pray that you’re anointing right now would fall on our lives, fall on these offerings, incredible miracles will break out of this safe place… I pray for every decision that people have made this morning as I’ve been speaking, things they’ve decided to do to step out. God I pray your hand of the breakthrough will be on those steps of action as they apply for jobs for buying houses. Put things into order to try to get out of debt. Take steps for maybe an emotional or psychological breakthrough. God I pray your hand right now on each one of those steps. Spirit of authority, power… Spirit of God, rest on us right now, in Jesus mighty name… Amen…

Guys, let’s just stay in this atmosphere right now as – If I can ask the host to take up that offering. Let’s just stay in that atmosphere…

There is some incredible things going on as we do this.

Don’t underestimate the power of what you’re feeling in the presence of god right now.

Friday, I went online to listen to the service two weeks ago. And I tell you, I felt the presence of God – such a strong service. And sitting in my office, I felt it. There have been moments in my life, when I’ve needed a break through, I’ve gone over and over – messages like this. If you download the podcast or get the video or whatever other format this service is out there on, you can continue to get this in your spirit. Believe it every week: My miracle is coming my way.

So if you – if you got something specific you want prayer for, just gonna ask you to come forward right now. [People start getting up] I don’t care if it’s everybody. [Undecipherable] and I are going to pray right now… Any sort of break-through you need… The very least, (if you put something pretty sacrificial in that offering), I certainly want to pray for you.

[Many people now assembled at front]

Some of you today, God has got your future married partner in mind. I get a strong sense some of you are going to find such a personal victory. You were bound by something that is you just need to be free from. I know some of you… Some of you are going to get ridiculously successful… in work.

Start reading the right material to preparing your heart. Don’t ever get glamourised by money. The love of money is the root of all evil. But if you can learn to handle big money, it would be one of the greatest tools to helping build the kingdom of God. Why don’t you reach out to Him right now?

Church, why don’t you begin to pray? Pray for this people here this morning. Amen. I want everybody engaged right now. I want the power of God to fall here this morning. So everybody in this church right now begin to lift up their voices and to call on God. In Jesus name amen… [Starts laying hand on people and praying/blessing them.]

Just ah… gonna pray for you in just a moment. I’ve also got another meeting so I wanna close this one.

Before I pray for these guys here, you may be sitting here this morning. And you may have never have asked Jesus Christ into your life. In just a moment I want to give you a chance to do just that, if you have never asked Jesus into your heart. Who says that, I ask that every eye be closed right now. If you’re here this morning and you’re going, ‘Oh! I’ve never taken that step!’ I want to help you take that step right now.

So if that’s you, can you raise your hand? [Hands raise and he calls out ‘Thankyou! I see that hand!’]

You may actually come to church but you’re just not sure you’re going to heaven- just want to be sure that you’re going to heaven. If that’s you today, why don’t you just raise your hand to [inaudible], ‘I really want to be sure that I’m going to heaven’. Or maybe that you’ve asked Jesus into your life but things with Him haven’t been good recently- gone away from God – you know you need to re-connect with Him today; you need to get your heart right with Him. If that’s you, why don’t you also just raise your hand? Wherever you are, put it in the air and back down again. That’s awesome. Thank you. Who else is there? You know you need to get their heart right with Him. I feel there’s two to three other people today. I’ll give you a chance just to get those things right with Him. Who else is their today? You need to take that step… That’s awesome. Church why don’t we pray together right now…”

[Prays with church, thanks Jesus and everyone applauds with him]


72 thoughts on “Steve Warren Fleeces C3 Amsterdam; Pringle Wants Jet from C3 Atlanta!

  1. And here is Phil Pringle ‘suggesting’ he should be getting a jet:

    http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/8802074

    “… At least that’s from checking in, security and all that. So in a month that’s 48 hrs. In a year that is 2 days so that’s… That is 24 days a year. Twenty four days in a year- that’s almost a month a year I can save myself. Ok, so over ten years- over twelve years – that’s a year. In one year I have saved myself one year of my life. One year of my life is worth a whole lot more then what any jet is worth or anything like that so – amen!
    If you – would like to buy that jet (laugher starts) for us… This weekend – I don’t know what you’re laughing about. I’m serious. (More laughter.) And you just go right ahead and slap that black amex down on some counter. And ahh… we’ll be flying, amen! Praise Jesus!” – Phil Pringle, C3 Church Atlanta 8/8/10 8:45am Sevice, http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/8802074 , Time: 0:00.

  2. I would also like to thank the person who emailed me the information for the above.

    I am specifically talking to you (who gave me the C3 Atlanta jet link- I’ll call you Kaz), I DO NOT send Pringle anonymous hate mail. That is despicable. I am in love with the body of Christ – but I am no fan of the institution that restricts the body from being what it is called to be.

    I would love to hang out with anyone from Signposts02 or anyone who emails me. But I must be extremely cautious. C3 does monitor what people say about them. I’ve had some pretty close encounters too. I have hung out with various people from the SP02 community. But it’s taken time and trust for me to come and meet up with them. My online alias and the name Signposts has popped up in the most unpredictable conversations at C3.

    I also never reply to any emails from my home PC. This is why I’m sorry I have not gotten back to you sooner. Sorry Kaz for not responding sooner. I am not angry, nor bitter. Just simply passionate. A common misconception people have about me is that I am angry or bitter because of what I do. I’m not. I’m actually motivated by love to do something that I believe must happen in fear of what will happen to C3 if it keeps going the way it is going.

    I have called it a gnostic cult. It is simply a stage which I believe it is going through which I hope will become less likely to be over time. I will take this claim back when I personally see these symptoms removed and see less spiritually abused people. I have some beautiful friends at C3 who I highly love and respect. I simply wish they knew what the movement was doing to their minds and pockets. I highly regard them. When I talk about C3, I am talking about the brand or institution – not the body of believers. Thanks again, and God bless you Kaz!

  3. Trying to find the best place to post this from The Naked Pastor…

    10 reasons why vision and mission statements should be expelled from the life of the church.

    Vision and mission statements…

    1.distract from the primary purpose of the church, which is to be a community… a spiritual family, and focus attention and energy on doing something. I’ve seen meetings where critical relational issues were ignored in order to prioritize a vision’s immediate demands.

    2.tantalize the people to follow a code rather than their own hearts. How many times have I heard it said, when a unique need presented itself to the community, “Well, that’s not what we do!“

    3.aren’t found from the earliest church right through to recent history. They are a modern phenomenon excited by their success in the business world. I believe they are necessary in business, but are a virus to the church. Inject just a small dose and in time it will crash the vitality of the local spiritual family. They might produce more activity, even positive activity, but the core health of the spiritual family will be compromised.

    4.promise the success and longevity of the group rather than the individual health of its members.

    5.transfigure what is meant to be a spiritual family into an energy unit, a lobby group, or an activist organization. There is nothing wrong with these things, as long as we understand that this is a forsaking of our primary identity as a family. It would be like Lisa and I insisting that we were put on this earth to raise 3 children, when in fact our primary identity and role is lovers from which child-rearing emanates.

    6.insinuate competition between local churches. Whenever I’ve been in meetings where demands for vision and mission statements were given, it always threw me back to Israel demanding a king because all of her enemies did. God consented. We are allowed to create and employ vision and mission statements without God smiting us. But that doesn’t mean its the best way.

    7.divert the pastor’s attention away from the primary practice of prayer, study of scripture and teaching. Rather, the pastor’s attention and energy usually get poured into inventing and crafting a sexy vision statement, convincing the leaders to endorse it, and inducing the congregation to comply to it.

    8.assume we can predict the future and predetermine our actions in it. Almost all people I’ve spoken with admit that the vision and mission statement of their community is quickly redesigned, abandoned or forgotten as soon as tomorrow hits with full force.

    9.behave like an addictive drug: once you buy in, you can never find the perfect high. They constantly lose their appeal and demand that they be traded up into something stronger and more satisfying.

    10.tempt us to take our attention away from what is right now to what should be by now. They introduce a subtle dissatisfaction with who and what is, and instill an appetite for something better than what we already have right here right now.

  4. Here is an article not really related to this topic, but many of you might find it interesting.

    It’s about Worship Evangelism written by the woman who wrote a book on that subject and lectured on it, who has stopped doing so and explains why.

    Fascinating stuff re mega churches and who is being attracted to them.

    http://churchleadergazette.com/clg/2009/06/worship-as-evangelism-by-sally.html

    Brave woman!

    Only thing I would add to it is that people talk about “worship-driven churches”, when most of them are “music-driven churches”.

    Incidentally, was it C3 who started this playing keyboards quietly during the preaching?

  5. The article re the jet isn’t so surprising. There are worse jobs than flying around the world in a private jet to churches.

    Do you think the day will ever come when mega churches and ministries are listed on the stock exchange?

    If it sounds strange, private jets used to sound strange years ago too.

  6. Seeing it transcribed by Specks is a little different from watching the clip. Is he joking? Doesn’t sound like it when you actually hear him on that clip.

    And churches like these, in the current pente culture, there are enough monied-up “willing to be fleeced” sheep who fall for this and contribute.

    Then the “shearer” can once again claim the value of “vision-casting.”!

  7. My husband, having heard the clip, made this point…
    “How many people have to spend an hour and a half each day just to get to work (+ the return trip) About 32 days a year, which becomes 1 year out of every 12 years just to get work – to pay the bills.

    That’s not passing time in First Class lounges/ First/Business Class seats or in a leased/owned jet.

  8. Have just read the Steve Warren transcript. Thanks S&P for taking the time to write that out (I’m assuming you did it). It’s a real service to the body of Christ I think, because then its obvious to anyone who reads it what the guy is saying.

    It can’t be denied; there is no double-speak. He actually said all this:

    “And for some of you here this morning, this offering is going to be the moment that’s going to cause a breakthrough for you.

    …But when it comes to break through, very often there is something we have to do to position ourselves to receive the breakthrough…you may find this morning that God speaks to you about some sort of financial sacrifice that you’re going to have to make…

    …We’re going to give an offering that’s going to cause us to have to walk on water…

    …What is it you’ve got in your hand that’s a lease within the realm of your control that you can do to unlock something from heaven into your life?…

    …If you’re having financial troubles and you’re not tithing, I can’t solve that for you. It doesn’t matter how much I pray for you, you’re not going to get your breakthrough…

    …When you find yourself in debt, DON’T STOP TITHING!

    At that very point, God just might be bringing your breakthrough, DON’T PULL BACK!…

    I want you this morning to feel like the oil of the Holy Ghost is getting on your world. But it’s going to take a step. And only you can decide what that step is.

    Sacrificial offering…

    …Once you’ve given that, you may still need tomorrow to get on the phones of companies that you think, your sort of job might be in. [Nice bit of wriggle room there, if the miracle doesn’t happen – its because you’ve still not done something else you should have done – RP]

    …I have known people who have found their marriage partner’s as they’ve given in to some sort of offering…

    Well, its all out there. So manipulative. So patently not what the bible teaches. So clearly unscriptural for anyone who actually bothers to read their New Testament. Especially Peter’s condemnation of peddling the gospel/buying miracles. Complete distortion of the message about Elisha and the widow.

    I’ve heard people try to defend prosperity doctrine by denying that these extremes are taught. Well, here they are. Loud and clear.

  9. I love the way you put this, Specks:

    “I am in love with the body of Christ – but I am no fan of the institution that restricts the body from being what it is called to be.”

    Yep, that puts it really well.

  10. Hmm, given that both Pringle in the jet link above, and his daughter both talked about a jet (thanks for reminding us about that, Greg) – I think its probably something he would really like. He might be ‘joking’ now, but I think there’s at least a thread of genuine hope there, that someone might make a particularly generous donation!

    I wonder if he’s specifically visualised what it will look like down to the last detail, just like Yonggi Cho’s bicycle yet?

    We will see! If C3 gets its x number of churches around the world, that may well justify a private jet for the leader of the movement.

    In the past, Phil Pringle has been quite savvy about money though. He bought the land for the Oxford Falls church years before they built, which would have saved them a fortune, and I get the impression he managed the finances well, without getting the church into a stack of debt. So I think he’d hold back from a jet unless he was sure it wouldn’t get them into financial trouble.

    If the C3OF church is having financial troubles, then I think it would be due to the unforseen impact of the GFC or perhaps the consequences of taking on C3 Centrewest’s debt which they guaranteed (probably in a moment of madness), rather than mismanagement.

  11. Listened to Steve Warren’s “Work for Your Miracle” and apart from really wanting my 36 minutes and 47 seconds back, about the only miracle that happened was that Snakeoil Steve was not struck down by lightening….

  12. And yes RavingPente. I did painstakingly type this sermon out. If anyone finds a sermon worth transcribing please email me the link and I’ll do.

    Any help transcribing will be greatly appreciated. I would love to acknowledge you unless likewise.

  13. If anything stands out from ANYTHING said you watch from Hillsong or C3, please quote them, the time it was said and provide the link.

    It does seem to be the best way.

  14. Here’s an idea for those who heard Steve Warren’s message and concluded that when you want a financial breakthrough (or find a marriage partner etc ), that you should make a sacrificial offering to a church or ministry.

    Just go and and read the story in 2 Kings 4 which he mentions.

    Also, go and read about Elijah in 1 Kings 17 (another story that some preachers use for evidence of planting sacrificial seeds when desiring a financial miracle).

    The “moral of the stories” is not to give money to church when you want something. It just isn’t there.

    We need to go back to the Bible and forget about the slants that people put on them. The way preachers are using scriptures is not right.

    Firstly in 2 Kings, the prophet didn’t say, “Hey widow, if you want a breakthrough, give me your oil. Bye!” It just wasn’t like that.

    And in 1 Kings, the prophet gave a SPECIFIC word from God for a specific time. And if the flour and oil DIDN’T keep going until the specified time, Elijah would have been in big trouble! In both cases, the prophet KNEW that there would be specific provision. It wasn’t a case of saying, plant a seed, or make a sacrifice, and God will bless – if you have faith, or if you do your business well.

    It’s just plain misuse of scripture. It’s a great way to increase offerings though! We need to think more, because there really are preachers out there who will lead you astray – willingly or in most cases with good intentions.

    (I don’t think Steve Warren is a crook, or a bad man, or purposely trying to deceive people. Just that his biblical reasoning is mixed up, and people could end up in even worse financial messes.)

  15. C3 is in a financial mess. Going through my emails not long ago, I found a really insightful email that I passed onto Teddy & RP about C3’s financial state.

    I think C3’s priority is to get as much money as it can to pay of it’s debts first before it does anything else. It’s made a lot of changes to be more financially efficient.

  16. Then if C3 is in a financial mess, then they need to do what Steve preaches if they honestly believe it.

    Interesting that prosperity churches and ministries preach that there will be financial blessing and overflow for individuals when they do things right, and point to their church’s buildings and assets as evidence, but when things go badly, instead of just believing, or planting seeds, they hit the people for more giving.

  17. Exactly what I thought churchman. If they have financial problems they need to get together and pray for a miracle. But there is something that they need to do to unlock that miracle.

    For this purpose I have set up WMI (Wazza Ministries Incorporated) a tax-free not for profit ministry foundation. They know what they need to do to achieve their breakthrough.

  18. But this is where the gnostic strain comes in. obviously the formula is possible to fulfill because of the successful faith of the pastor can be seen and he is still preaching it works.

    They must figure out the formula themselves somehow, which will unlock spiritual, marital, emotional, physical and financial blessings in their life. How? Well the pastor seems to know the answer. If we receive from the word of God (pastors words), we will know how to make it!

  19. Hi I hope it’s ok to comment here. I’ve been reading some of the posts here and it sounds like some of the people here have been thru things at church. I’ve had my own recent hurtful experience at church and I’m not really sure where to turn. My relationship with God is in a mess. I feel like I don’t know who God is anymore because I’m now questioning everything I’ve been taught by these ‘christians.’ Where can I go from here? How do you get past the stage I’m at? Your advice would be very appreciated. Thank you.

  20. @ hurt and confused – Speaking from experience, it seems that when we come out of these situations, at the very least, we end up much stronger and more discerning. Don’t be too hard on yourself for questioning everything. Maybe this is how the Lord is making your foundation more secure.

    Thinking about Psalm 23, it’s used at funerals when it most often applies to our daily walk! Those words in verses 2-3 “He makes me, He leads me, He restores me, He guides me…” – it’s the Lord doing what needs to be done. Is it painful? Oh yes, but looking back, even after a short time, it’s been worth it.

    What is your story? Would it help to share more here so we best know how to make the road smoother?

  21. Thanks for your reply. I’m not sure I’m comfortable sharing specifics in detail on a public forum. It’s to do with a ACC church, the trust I had in them, their teachings and friendships I thought I had with the pastors. I was shocked at how quickly their attitudes turned when I was diagnoised with depression, had to take time off from work because of it and the $ ran out. I saw another side of them and it’s made me question everything.

  22. Hi hurt and confused. Teddy is right – many of us find ourselves stronger when we exit the wilderness on the other side, as hard as it is going through. It seems to be God’s way – there is an analogy there with the crown of thorns that Christ wore on his way to the cross, and his suffering, which was a necessary part of His journey on our behalf.

    I’ll try to come back to this later (short of time), but remember what Jesus Himself said:

    Matthew 5:3-4
    3″(D)Blessed are the poor in spirit, for (E)theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    4″Blessed are (F)those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

    These people aren’t blessed because they mourn, but because they will be comforted, by the Lord. His order turns the world’s order upside down.

    That might seem obscure right now, but the main thing is that what you see at these churches sometimes does not reflect Christ, regardless of what they say. I questioned everything I was taught, and am still questioning, but the longer it goes on, the more I realise how remarkably different Jesus is to all these goings on.

    Hard as it may be, it is much better to be in a state where you have nothing left of your faith but Jesus, than relying on other things that will ultimately disappoint.

    It’s hard to know what to write without knowing your story, but I imagine it would be hard to suffer from depression in an environment where people are supposed to be positive or get over things fairly quickly somehow, rather than suffer an apparent ‘lack of victory’ or ‘lack of faith’. But this could be a blessing if it starts you on a journey where you discover greater truth.

  23. @ Hurt and Confused – Yes, the excesses of the charasmatic movement and the seeker sensitive movement among other things, has caused me alot of pain. I am glad you are honestly questioning everything if this is also your situation.

    I agree what Teddy says – your situation is means used by the Lord to build the foundations of a mature and balanced Christian life – to actually come to a knowledge of your primary purpose for existence – to glorify God and enjoy Him forever and to be conformed to the image of His precious Son (NOT TO LIVE “YOUR BEST LIFE NOW”)

    I came to the same place where you appear to be now – Christianity is simply not worth believing if it is not true. In this place, your presuppositions about the Triune God and you traditions will be challenged. You need to examine and become convinced that the Word of God is true (i.e. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is GOD-BREATHED(Theopneustos) and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness). I went to the foundation – the Word and became not only convinced of the claims of Holy Scripture but purely amazed at the historic accuaracy and integrity of the truth claims and transmission of Scripture (Church History is an amazingly rewarding study), amazed at the the the person and the work of Jesus Christ-the mystery of Devine Personality, and the hopeless and sinful contidion of the human heart and our need for a perfect Saviour.

    I also leared that much of what is being said in the name of God by so called “men of God” in our day are lies and many are being led astray because of the cult of personality in the Church.

    I pray that God would guide you in His sovereign grace and mercy and that he would grant you understanding and a love for Him that you have never known before….don’t give up, God is good and He is real and revealed to us plainly in his Word

  24. @ hurt and confused – I also know very well the black dog of depression – its ok to feel depressed – if you you require medication and treatment, like I did (and continue to need) then need to continue that and get around believers who will encourage you. Jesus promised us trials and tribulation in this life – you MUST rest in his sovereign grace and mercy and endure in His strength – if you believe on His name for salvation and the forgiveness of sins – know that this is the Sovereign work of God and not you own (Ephesians 1) so that you cant boast in it – irrespective how you feel, God has started a good work in you and is able to complete it nor can anything now steal you away from his hand (John 6:44-). Keep pressing on, there are better days ahead and the depression will lift, and as you grow in Christ he will teach you how to manage and endure – may the Lord bless you…

  25. I’ll be simply praying for you Hurt & Confused. May you feel the love of God and may He offer His love to you in a way that no one else can.

    I hope you ask him questions about your depression or some of the harder things you’re going through right now. I hope you find the answers he reveals in His Word and I hope you hear his voice comfort you in wisdom and in love.

    It’s important to question and important to feel. Only he can deal with you in this sensitive time. I don’t know exactly what you are going through. Sorry I can’t do much more than that.

  26. Mosco, again you said that well, I think. Just reflecting a bit on that, and the topic of depression:

    Christians are allowed to become depressed. It does not make you a bad Christian. God loves you just as much whether you are depressed or not.

    Some of the prophets in the OT were quite depressed at times. Many of the Psalms are written in a state of anguish; others in joy.

    Most of us will struggle with some kind of depression at some time, and its important to seek whatever help we need.

    I did get given a brief but very helpful booklet about grief one time, from a member of Frank Houston’s church when I was suffering. That was a time when I couldn’t find that kind of help at my own church at the time (Phil Pringle’s church). Maybe I just didn’t know the right people, or maybe because of the depression, I just couldn’t relate to them. This booklet really did help me understand what was happening to me, and it did come from someone who didn’t condemn me and did their best to assist. I just wanted to mention that so that anyone reading knows we’re not saying help can’t come from people within these churches. But they are big places and we don’t always connect with those there who could help us. Sometimes but not always, there is a culture that can make dealing with depression difficult, especially if it lasts a long time.

    Re turning to scripture:

    I have a friend who came to know God just by reading the Bible, in order to prove it wrong. There was no church involved. Actually, that’s how my husband became a Christian as well.

    Just thinking about what Mosco said, one of the things I am most grateful for, about my own journey with all this questioning, is the way it turned me back to the bible. I now read it in a completely fresh way.

    If you are in a particular type of church environment, always hearing scripture used (or abused) in a particular way, it is easy to pick up that way of reading it yourself. So it can be very helpful to start to read what various teachers outside your movement have written about what scripture really says. Even just on one or two topics that you have questions about.

    Seeing other people’s perspectives opened the way for me to read scripture with new perspectives myself. For me, this included reading authors whom I’d never heard recommended at church. If you haven’t come across other viewpoints, you can still read scripture the same way you hear it every Sunday, and not really see that it is not saying what they say it is. I think that’s one reason many people don’t challenge what they are taught. They do read their bibles, but just can’t see past the mindset of their environment.

    That’s why for me, the tithing issue opened the door. I really wanted to satisfy my niggling discomfort about the teaching on that issue. So I began to read more widely about it. Along the way, apart from becoming convinced that tithing today is not a requirement, or even a biblical principle that we should follow, I also discovered how badly scripture had been used to convince me of things in the past.

    That opened the door to questioning everything I’d previously been taught, and even the way I’d previously used scripture myself at times. At times now I cringe to remember that.

    Like Mosco said, I then became just amazed at the person and work of Jesus Christ, especially His integrity, His wisdom and His love. It’s a good thing, and there is much growth on this path. Plus a real appreciation of the riches within the wider body of Christ, beyond the borders of denominations or buildings.

  27. “That opened the door to questioning everything I’d previously been taught…” – and to a sense of utter confusion at times, plus the certainty of absolutely nothing except the person of Christ Himself. You learn to live with the state of not knowing, and to celebrate the wonderful person of Christ in its place.

  28. There is a recent discussion here about the sense of being overwhelmed some of us have at times, by all the conflicting opinions on scripture:

    http://lifestream.org/blog/2010/08/20/finding-truth/

    I quite liked this quote from it:

    “If we don’t know him [Jesus[ and the security of our love in him, we will twist the Scriptures into doctrines that seem true to the intellect, but are not the real truth. Following them will only lead us further away from knowing him. Only by knowing him and growing in him can we discover the truth behind the simplest things Scripture teaches. But that is a life-long process, not an overnight phenomenon. ”

    The same thing happens when church groups of any type are motivated more by their agenda than by knowing and growing in Christ together. Scripture will often be twisted to fit their agenda. So Christ Himself needs to be our centre, and nothing else.

  29. I just wanted to say thank you. I will write more later in reply when I’m feeling a bit more up to it.

  30. They are not all the same. They do have autonomy. My old one used to be very good until they started to import PP’s stuff.

  31. Also, my previous congregation was/still is a great group of people. That made it hard to leave. There are lots of great people there.

  32. There are some good C3’s Greg, to an point. Every now and then, they buckle to the bidding of the mother church.

    I’m guessing Silverwater. That’s sometimes a great place when the mother backs off it.

    RP: “There are lots of great people there.”
    I know. There are some beautiful contagious Christian personalities. Don’t you wonder sometimes RP what they’d be like in a real healthy church environment?

  33. After doing Steve’s talk, I couldn’t be bothered quoting Phil Pringle in his jet Atlanta Sermon. I am a bit concerned they might take footage like this down.

    If there is any segment that get’s your attention that you believe is worth quoting, can you please do so?

    Do not forget the time it was quoted (0:00). Thanks!
    It’s all worth keeping for others to see.

  34. What’s funny about megachurches being ‘relevant’ is that they are never ever even close to being 50% relevant.

    I just realised the Malachi 3:10, the ‘Prophet’s Reward’, the 2Cor 8, the cheerful giving passage and the other prosperity scriptures are simply recycled rhema’s from the 1970’s! When Michael Pitts came up with the Firstfruits doctrine, it was a phenomenal false move of folly that took megachurches by storm. It was finally a different doctrine of giving that didn’t seem old, but new and relevant.

    (Recycled Rhema – now that’s a name good for a blog or for discussion. Do recycled rhema’s work?)

  35. smash ashby twittered:

    “PP caught a chopper to fly between services. Was meant to pickup from OFGS oval. We were there waiting. Left from x-files.”

    the x-files is a name to a set of demountables behind the back of C3 church. i thought i’d correct any confusion on that.

  36. “Don’t you wonder sometimes RP what they’d be like in a real healthy church environment?” – SpeckandPlanks

    No.

    Great people are great wherever they go. If they have a compassionate heart, they’ll see through a lot of the stuff, or at least not be dictated to by it. They are likely to be happier in a healthier environment though.

    What is a healthy church environment anyway?

    I don’t even attend a ‘church’. I think a healthy church environment is having good relationships with others in the body of Christ, of which there is only one – not many – wherever you are.

  37. I don’t get this. It’s up to you if you tithe. I go to a C3 church and they would have no idea if I tithed or not. But it’s biblical to tithe so you should do it anyway no matter what anyone at the front says. PP was probably joking about the jet.

  38. You better believe that God knows if you have tithed -hes making a list and checking twice – gonna find out naughty or nice….

    gimme a break – what has happened to the Christ Centred Christian GOSPEL!!!!!!! i.e. Grace ALONE, Through Faith ALONE, in Christ ALONE – not Grace ALONE, Through Faith ALONE, in Christ plust 10% of Gross taxable income per fortnight…..

  39. It’s actually interesting hearing a sermon critiqued like that.
    The problem with Houston and Pringle is that as Chris notes – they are winging it. They just say stuff that sounds good to a pentecostal crowd, but if someone stopped them and asked for clarification, they wouldn’t be able to do it.

    And then, hundreds of young Pastors are influenced and do the same thing, which then leads to a complete dumbing down of the church. Have rocking music, then a guy gets up and just raves off the cuff. They could probably say anything next Sunday and most would just go along with it. btw, do they always have keyboard music in the background?

  40. not all the time. it would be great if you took this conversation over to the actual topic itself though. Follow the Bing!

  41. Sorry Specks, but to me it’s all the same. Steve Warren, Phil Pringle – the basic thing is a rambling address that ends up with, if you really love God and really want his blessings, then keep giving all you can at offering time. That’s it – over and over and over again. If you want to get ahead, prosper, be blessed, get married, get a bigger house, bigger ministry etc etc -then give at this offering. Do you want to prove that you really, really love, believe, worship, honor God – then give at this particular offering. With jokes and old testament scriptures twisted and taken out of context thrown in. The whole Christian life seems to boil down to one thing – giving as much money as you can at the upcoming offering.

  42. Ohola, Oholiba, Salomo, Youngest Day?

    This is all out of my league ..so I’ll stay out of this one and leave it to the biblical heavyweights! 🙂

  43. @ valse leraar (‘false teacher’ in Dutch), you appear to be living up to your name in the post above. Strong overtones of hyper-preterism and acting the lone ranger. Unfair or accurate?

  44. Interesting reading back at the quite gleefully projected ‘soon-coming’ ‘demise’ of C3 and its satellites because of the GFC, by a few of the commenters with a vested interest in tearing C3OF down. Apparently, though, C3 in Sydney weathered the storm and are not only prospering but thriving. Maybe there’s something to concerted giving by a committed group of churchgoers after-all.

    Sadly many of the still active specksandplanks posts are attracting whacky people with religious conspiracy theories. Demons like to congregate. I think they should be closed off so this blog can move forward.

    I’d also like Bull to grant other people posting rights. He has my email. There is surely more to discuss than liberally watered down little ‘c’ christianity, and an ancient litany of false accusations against C3 Pastors.

  45. Anyone care to comment on the posting rights of others?

    Quite a few people are allowed to post so I suppose the question is: Should we allow Steve/FL to post articles, as he did at one time do.

    Shalom

  46. What are the reasons why he shouldn’t? I think it’s great that a C3 person is here to respond.

    Why not have a post about why or why not he should have posting rights?

  47. Thebible777, I have departed the C3 system after 3 yeas on the inside. As to their goal being to ‘kill honest Chrsitians’, I would suggest that this kind of strong language does your cause no favours. Personally, I found their services a good place to get a 45 mins snooze. ‘One dimensional’ and ‘plain ol’ dull’ are adjectives that come to mind.

  48. Actually, reading falseteacher’s site, it is clear he thinks Steve Warren is Rick Warren, and anyone called Steve is the same Steve who is Rick! Bizarre! I think somewhere along the line he stopped taking the medication.

  49. I don’t now if this guy is thick or what. How many times does he have to be told I’m not Steve Warren, and Steve’s not Rick Warren?

    I’m suddenly becoming a greater believer in moderation. I mean, do we have to put up with this dingbat stuff?
    _____________________________

    But, look, falseteacher, I predict that C3 churches and Hillsong, and all the other Pentecostal movements will grow in Europe, and especially in Holland over the next few years, simply because the adversary is running so scared he has to use tools like you to write all this whacky poison, but mainly because Pentecostal church plants are God’s idea, part of the Body of Christ, following God’s command to make disciples of all nations, and the gates of hades will not prevail against the Church.

    Also – the curse causeless is without effect, no weapon formed against the saints will prosper, and every tongue which rises against God’s people we will condemn, because this is the heritage of the servants of Jehovah!

  50. In all seriousness, there are many people with mental problems floating around churches. Not using “mental problems” as a silly kind of accusation either. Just that mental illness and religion is a pretty potent mix.

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