Diploma Mills & Doctorate Dills?

If you are concerned about your spiritual health, you’d be concerned who you’d consider to be your spiritual doctor…

About Phil Pringle’s Doctorate

You can see Phil Pringle promote his credentials here in his own College ‘School of Creative Arts’ prospectus below. Click to view the attachment:

Phil Pringle’s Credentials (pg 15)

Dr Phil Pringle, OAM
Founder and President of Christian
City Church International

CERTIFICATE IV & DIPLOMA >
Faith + Lessons from The Book of Acts + Leadership
> Founder and President of the Christian City Church International – founded in 1980 with 12 members
in a Surf Club, CCC has since grown to a worldwide movement of over 100 congregations and over 25,000 members
> Senior Minister of CCC Oxford Falls – membership 3,500+
> National President of the Australian Pentecostal Ministers Fellowship
> International Director on Dr David Yonggi Cho’s Church Growth International Board (Yoido Full Gospel Church,
Seoul, Korea)
> Awarded the Order of Australia Medal by Queen Elizabeth II in 2001 for his service to the community
> Awarded a PhD by New Covenant International University in 1999, achieved by thesis on the Book of Acts, following a Masters by thesis on Church Growth
> Much-sought-after speaker internationally”

At the back of the prospectus the disclaimer says:

“Disclaimer – All details contained in this brochure are true and correct at the time of printing.”

___________________________________________

He promotes his doctorate here too: http://www.philpringlegallery.com/bio.html

In 2000 the Government of Australia awarded him the Order of Australia Medal for services to the community and he has earned a Doctorate in Biblical Philosophy. Dr Pringle has also authored more than ten books and is a sought after international speaker.

___________________________________________

(Phil Pringle is on the CMN Board with the president of the ‘New Covenant International University’. The President of the New Covenant International University, is ‘Dr’ Kevin Dyson.)

This information is from http://www.cmnworld.com/about/leadership:

CMN Ministry Board

  • Bishop Dale C. Bronner – Atlanta. Sr. Pastor/founder Word of Faith Church, Chairman – Bronner Brothers Corp., CMN.
  • Dr. Robert Barriger – Lima, Peru. Sr. Pastor – Camino De Vida Church, national church leader, director of “Red de Hombres” (CMN) for Latin America.
  • Eddy Leo
  • Dr. Rod Anderson – London. Co-founder with wife Julie of international prayer ministry, “Prayer for the Nations”.
  • Rv. John Arana, Jr. – Arlington, Texas. Sr. Pastor/founder of Center Point Church. Author, motivator, missionary.
  • Mr. Glenn Bollinger – Dallas. CEO, Alliance Sports Group, multi-national corporation. Secy. – CMN Board.
  • Rev. Joel Brooks, Jr. – Kalamazoo, Michigan. Sr. Pastor/founder Christian Life Center. Author, church planter.
  • Dr. Kevin Dyson – Central Coast, Australia. President/founder New Covenant University – international college.
  • Dr. Jim Garlow – San Diego. Sr. Pastor Skyline Church. Best-selling author, speaker.
  • Dr. Phil Pringle – Sydney, Australia Sr. Pastor C3 Church. President – C3 Churches International.
  • Rev. Doug Stringer – Houston. Founder Turning Point Ministries and Somebody Cares, international compassion.

Guess what the address is to this place?

7255, Military Tr, Lake Worth, FLORIDA. Went to Google maps. There’s no ‘New Covenant International University’. Instead you stumble across an academy: Trinity Christian Academy. (Drag image to URL, to see bigger image.)

The address given of this place can be found here: http://epayroll.nasa.gov/documents/fppsTables/Colleges_Universities.txt?keepThis=true&TB_iframe=true

___________________________________________

This is their website: http://www.tcalw.org/

You can see that this is the correct institute from google maps because they have photos of the construction site of their new buildings on both google maps and their website. But after browsing endlessly on their church and the TCA website, there is no mention of New Covenant University, New Covenant International University or Kevin Dyson.

But this site may offer some information: http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Name-It-and-Frame-It%3F

Name It and Frame It? is a 1993 book by Steve Levicoff about Christian schools. He explores the accreditation process, good and bad institutions of higher learning. This work has four different editions, which contain updated information and responses from various groups. In the preface of the third edition Levicoff wrote about the book, “administrators at legitimately accredited Christian schools loved it, but the operators of degree mills weren’t too pleased.”

There are some very impressive ministry college names in the list in his book. The one that caught my eye was, ‘New Covenant International Theological Seminary‘, which is supposedly located in Honolulu, Hawaii. Thank you Steve Levicoff!

___________________________________________

Just to be sure this was the institute, I checked out the New Covenant International Theological Seminary: http://www.newcovenant.edu/index.php?page=home.

Read the ‘About Us’ here (Emphasis mine): http://www.newcovenant.edu/index.php?page=about-us2&PHPSESSID=e001e896d3b1d9ca604838def87de407.

HISTORY & BIBLICAL FOCUS

NCI was founded in Auckland, New Zealand in 1978 as a logical outgrowth of the recognition that all members of the local church body need appropriate forms and levels of training and equipping to be able to effectively do the work of serving those around them, as well as those in other nations.

In 1990 NCIU was incorporated in the United States as an independent, self-governing corporation where it remains to this day. NCI was established in relationship with the apostolic oversight of a local assembly of Christian believers at Lake Worth, Florida, as well as other ministry leaders from a broad spectrum. NCIU is a “user focused” institution that exists to serve the needs of the end-users, not simply to perpetuate knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Our chief end is to glorify God and Him alone in all that we do.

It is widely known that many fully engaged leaders and adults with careers, families and community involvement— with busy lives— often desire to further their education and be better equipped for their chosen task of Christian service, regardless of their vocational location.

To these people, NCI University & Theological Seminary offers an enriching learning experience that allows them to fit much needed education into their lives, rather than forcing them to fit their lives into education.

NCIU acknowledges that the local body of Christian believers and its community of members remain the primary place for planting and nurturing of biblical, foundational truth and meaningful spiritual experiences through what is termed “the Disciple-making Process”.

The “Disciple-making Process,” which is God’s prime weapon for extending His ever-increasing, unshakable kingdom throughout the nations and people groups of the entire earth, may take place within recognized structures or spontaneous, organic groups in the marketplace and beyond. The new life of faith needs to grow where it happens!

The necessity of this pivotal practice is under-scored by NCIU in the development and provision of appropriate foundation and disciple-making materials, such as are found in the Resources section of this website.

In the technology-driven twenty first century with the worldwide Internet providing adult learners with a more convenient global-focused education, this process is a basic task. The challenge, however, for NCI University & Theological Seminary is to make sure that this ‘convenience factor’ keeps technology as our servant and not our master. It also provides the global vehicle for us to be able to jointly engage in a genuine, educational, intellectually challenging and spiritually enriching experience.

It is because of the commitment to maintaining this academic standard and practical spiritual development that NCI University & Theological Seminary is able to provide culturally relevant and meaningful distance-learning, higher education programs, establishing it amongst the more innovative Christian institutions of higher learning.

NCI University & Theological Seminary also works alongside a number of campus-based Christian education providers on the five main continents and gives special recognition to their validated programs as equal components of the total learning requirements to receive specified, academic awards for religious, vocational purposes.

Go to this websites contact page: http://www.newcovenant.edu/index.php?page=contact

You will find and address and map (address sound familiar?). Click the image below to see the screen grab of where the map says this ‘University’ is. (Drag image to URL, to see bigger image.)


Enter this address into Google maps and you will find  this familiar location. (Drag image to URL, to see bigger image.)

It’s the same place. No university. The university’s information is wrong when it says, “In 1990 NCIU was incorporated in the United States as an independent, self-governing corporation where it remains to this day”.

___________________________________________

I quickly went over to this site to check if NCI University & Theological Seminary should be indeed considered a diploma mill: http://www.elearners.com/guide/online-colleges-universities-and-schools/diploma-mills/.

How can I tell if a school is a diploma mill?

  • They often have names similar to well-known colleges or universities, but fail to mention an accrediting agency or name a fake accrediting agency.
  • The organization frequently changes addresses, sometimes moving from state to state.
  • Written materials typically include numerous spelling and grammatical errors, sometimes on the diploma itself.
  • Overemphasis on the speed and brevity with which someone can receive a degree (e.g. “Call now and have your degree shipped to you overnight!”).
  • Degrees can be earned in far less time than normal (e.g. 27 days) or the diploma is printed with a specific backdate.
  • There is no selectivity in admissions, or any questions about previous test scores or detailed academic history.
  • No interaction with professors or faculty (e.g. only two emails are received from a professor).
  • Degree requirements are vague or unspecified, lacking class descriptions and without any mention of how many credit hours are required to complete a program.
  • Tuition and fees are typically on a per-degree basis.
  • Grade point average (GPA) and academic honors (e.g. Summa Cum Laude) can be specified at the time of purchase.

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Finally, I found this comment made by Lionfish on Groupsects:

“Dr Phil (Pringle) “earned” his doctorate from New Covenant International University in Florida writing a book about Acts.

Note that even on his own site he does not quote the Institution from where he “earned”” this qualification: Source: http://www.philpringlegallery.com/bio.html

Here is the website for this institution: http://www.newcovenant.edu/ (note the low number of visitors to the site and the ‘sprawling campus at this address: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=7255+South+Military+Trail+Lake+Worth,+33463-7899+USA&sll=37.509726,-95.712891&sspn=38.626676,93.164063&ie=UTF8&ll=26.569491,-80.111275&spn=0.042912,0.090981&z=14

There are a number of well researched sources that document that New Covenant International University is yet another diploma mill.

“This is a legal religious educational institution in the state of Florida in the USA. The Florida Statutes 1005.6 (f) states that, “A religious college may operate without governmental oversight”.

That means you can start up an university to teach black magic in Florida as long as the rules in Statutes 1005.6 is followed. You can give out Ph.D in Voodoo or Ph.D in Bomoh, if you like. Though being legally instituted by the state of Florida, that alone does not guarantee the recognition of the institution’s degrees in other states of the USA and other countries. Such recognition comes through ‘accreditation’. That means the master’s degrees and doctorates provided by institutions which are accredited and those which are not are qualitatively different.

The accreditation body that guarantees the quality of higher education in Florida is the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. Theological seminaries and Christian universities like Asbury Theological Seminary and Baylor University are accredited by the body. And New Covenant International University & Theological Seminary is not in the accreditation list.

Simply said, those without accreditation is free to grant degrees without ensuring academic competency and so the certificates are not recognized. The implication is that those people who got their degrees and doctorates from unaccredited institutions cannot use the title “Dr.” in their referent, or even if they use it, it is a fake “Dr.”, like calling a woman without a child under her care as “mother”.

Now you may be wondering why am I highlighting the New Covenant International University & Theological Seminary. That is because the institution’s president Kevin Dyson was here earlier this year giving a series of talks on relationship at City Harvest Church. And lo and behold, our local charismatic Kong Hee’s Master of Divinity (M.Div) and Doctor of Theology (D.Th) are from Dyson’s institution. If he really wants a good quality theological education degree, he can get them from local seminaries and theological colleges. There are plenty which are accredited here. Don’t have to get from a dubious institution in Florida. But if he prefer overseas degrees, he should opt for places like Asbury or Baylor”. Source: http://szezeng.blogspot.com/2009/12/new-covenant-international-university.html

In summary:

1: Be wary of any Doctorate earned in the US – especially Florida. 2: Do your own research
3: Ask for a copy of Dr Phil’s transcript and ask any University in Australia whether they would recognize it
3: Be extremely wary of anything a megachurch Pastor tells you!

Kind regards,

RJM – Lionfish”

  • So Phil Pringle for the last few years has been asking his staff and students to call him Dr Phil.
  • Pringle has used his ‘Doctorate’ to promote and advertise his ministry and ministry colleges.
  • Phil Pringle is on a board of members where he seems to know the president of the NCI University & Theological Seminary, Kevin Dyson.
  • Kevin Dyson DID have an educational institution in Florida, which later moved off the property.
  • Kevin Dyson also gave Kong Hee a Master’s and Doctorate in theology.

Maybe it is worth to take Steve Levicoff’s advice from his book, ‘Name It and Frame It’. If the book was released in 1993, it already exposes the sad credentials of Kong Hee. With Pringle it is more questionable. There is no sign whatsoever that the Seminary is now endorsed as an accredited educational facility. Since Pringle gained his doctorate in 1999, the chances are incredibly high that it is not legitimate.

What adds further weight to it’s illegitimacy is the fact that Pringle only promoted his credentials only a few times. The second time I found he used his doctorate credentials, he was too vague to explain where he got them, what he got them for and who gave them to him. Even if he knows his doctorate is meaningless, why would he not promote people to call him ‘Doctor’ anyway?

If anyone has any more information regarding this, please comment and source your information.

I will now be putting up Lances article on Danny Nalliah and his doctorate below for interested readers.


272 thoughts on “Diploma Mills & Doctorate Dills?


  1. From Groupsects http://groupsects.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/danny-nalliahs-fake-doctorate/:

    ‘From today you shall now be called Dr Danny Nalliah’ – fake doctorate – updated*
    July 27, 2010 by groupsects in Uncategorized
    95 *July 27 update

    Lance (GroupSects) writes…

    Since receiving the fake diploma from ‘Bishop’ Zamekio Jackson, Danny Nalliah has not used his honarary ‘Dr’ title publicly. Hopefully he realised fairly quickly he’d been sprung and the doctorate was worthless (in case you missed the saga, background is below)

    One piece in the puzzle that was missing at the time was who approached whom to set up the sham ceremony for Nalliah.

    An article in the Toledo Journal gives an insight into Jackson’s modus operandi.

    The paper obviously hasn’t done any background checking and reports on an ‘honarary doctorate’ awarded recently by Jackson to Bishop Duane C. Tisdale; treating it as a legitimate award.

    The report sets out how Jackson approaches pastors with honorary doctorates, to legitimise his bogus ‘college’.

    “Bishop Duane C. Tisdale, pastor of one of the largest churches in Toledo, is working toward his doctorate degree in ministry. Religious academics in Florida decided that, in the meantime, he deserves a doctorate of divinity.

    Last week, Dr. Zamekio Jackson, the president of St. Thomas Christian College in Jacksonville, Fla., came to Toledo to honor the longtime pastor of Friendship Baptist Church. He presented the divinity degree during a special worship service June 30 attended by hundreds of members of Friendship.

    ”The [St. Thomas] board deemed it necessary that instead of him coming to [the school’s] graduation, for his congregants to share with him the symbolism of his honor,” Dr. Jackson said. ”So they get a chance to share.”

    Bishop Tisdale, who presently is State Bishop in Ohio for the Full Gospel Baptist Fellowship International, said he considers the honorary doctorate something that his 1,200 active members helped earn.
    ”The divinity speaks not only for me, but it speaks for my congregation because it’s actually validating the work of the congregation,” he said. ”[St. Thomas officials] didn’t just look at me, they looked at all the things that involve the congregation.”

    Dr. Jackson said a St. Thomas regent learned about Bishop Tisdale about eight months ago and college officials further researched his record since becoming Friendship’s senior pastor in 1986.
    He said St. Thomas, which gave out two other honorary doctorates this year, discovered that Bishop Tisdale had blazed a ”trail of greatness.”

    He agreed with the bishop that the members of Friendship have contributed mightily to the church’s achievements, especially its outreach efforts.
    ”When you see real ministry like that, that’s embracement,” Dr. Jackson said. ”That’s something that you want to salute and encourage, not only the man that is the symbol of it, but even that group, to say ‘continue.’

    ”He bears the title of it, but they bear the works of it as well. So it’s a combined effort.”
    Bishop Tisdale is presently completing the Doctorate of Ministry program in Black Church Studies from Ashland Theological Seminary# in Ashland, Ohio. Now 51, he said that after he retires from the pulpit, he intends to teach theology on the college level.

    ”You’re never set educationally. You never tell a doctor to stop learning,” he said. ”No pastor, no preacher should ever stop learning. I don’t believe anybody in the ministry should ever stop getting their skills retrained.”

    Bishop Tisdale was born in Toledo but grew up in and attended Rossford Schools. (”I’m a REAL Bulldog,” he joked). He accepted Christ in 1969, when he was 10. He was licensed to preach four years later and five years after that he was ordained.

    He was assistant pastor at Rossford First Baptist for five years, then in 1985 joined Friendship as an assistant pastor. About a year later, the congregation chose him to become senior pastor.

    The church has continued to grow under his leadership. In 1997, at a cost of $5 million, Friendship built its impressive church building at 5301 Nebraska Ave.
    Bishop Tisdale credited God for the construction project.
    ”This was Him. He touched people’s hearts to help make this work,” he said.
    He said he’s fortunate to lead the type of people who comprise the congregation.

    ”We love community,” he said. ”We love people. I mean, we try to live our name – friendly people, friendship. We try to lift up Christ. We try to be what He’s about. He’s about people.”
    He said Friendship is a ”come as you are” church.

    ”We’re sincere. We’re a teaching church. We try to help you understand that what you do is not ritual. And we do love to praise God.”

    Bishop Tisdale and his wife, Thelma, are the parents of five children. He himself is the youngest of 14 children of Clyde and Thelma Tisdale. ”It took them that long just to get it right because they stopped after me,” he joked again.

    Bishop Tisdale had never had contact with persons at St. Thomas Christian College before. When he got the phone call about the honorary doctorate, he thought someone was ”playing with me.”

    He checked out the college itself and found out it is an accredited school. He said he was ”just totally, totally shocked” to learn the honorary doctorate was for real.

    The June 30 presentation was the first time Bishop Tisdale and Dr. Jackson had met. The bishop recalled a phone conversation during which the two discussed the best location to present the honor.

    ”He said ‘we don’t want your people to think that you went away for a weekend and you got this piece of paper,’” Bishop Tisdale said. ”‘We need to explain to them the value of what we’ve seen bestowed upon you.’”
    Dr. Jackson recalled the college’s research into the record of Bishop Tisdale and the people of Friendship Baptist.

    ”One of the things we found is, I think, just a trademark of ministry in general … to persist and to stay consistent,” the college president said. ”Unfortunately, the sad reality is that churches [and] church leaders are falling and churches are being affected by social influences. And so the value structures of even churches have become desecrated.

    ”And it was encouraging … to see people who are upholders of a standard, that begin to propose transformation to a people, that don’t get into just the monotony of regular church worship but have a desire to see people affected beyond that.”

    From http://thetoledojournal.com/news/Article/Article.asp?NewsID=104145&sID=36&ItemSource=L

    #Ashland Theological Seminary is a legitimate institution.

    (ends update)

    ————–

    (original January 2010 post)

    Catch The Fire Ministries blogs…

    “Dear family & friends in Christ in Australia and around the World,

    We thank our faithful Father in heaven for an amazing unity in the Body of Christ at the National Australia Day Prayer Gathering in Melbourne, buzzing with more than 3 hours of Holy Spirit empowered prayer, praise and worship to the reigning King of kings and Lord of lords, our Lord Jesus Christ!

    Between 750-800 Christians from many churches, denominations, generations, and ethnicities (many travelling from interstate and some from overseas) packed the Springvale City Hall in Melbourne, Australia to pray for this Great South Land of the Holy Spirit! Many brought their Australian flags with them and waved them throughout the entire service declaring ‘Australia for Jesus’!

    The CTFM worship team led the interdenominational Christian prayer gathering in ushering in the manifest glory of God’s awesome and holy presence, as God’s people passionate for Australia’s transformation, joined hearts and hands in Kingdom unity to worship King Jesus!

    The 20+ denominational representatives from the Salvation Army, CRC, Catholic Charismatic, Baptist, Anglican, AOG, Seventh Day Adventist, Uniting, Indigenous, and Christian ministry representatives from Culturewatch, Catch the Fire, Australian Marketplace Connections, Gospel Ministry, and Salt Shakers, led their prayer segment with the passion, fire, and love of Jesus for our nation of Australia, to absolutely storm heaven in prayer, standing on the sure promise of God’s Word from 2 Chronicles 7:13-14. We asked the Lord to protect Australia from natural disasters, especially during this bushfire season. There was also much intercessory and prophetic prayer for Rain, Farmers, Persecuted Church Worldwide, Government, Harvest of Lost Souls, Armed Forces, Pastors & Unity in the Body of Christ, Families, Children & Youth, Business & Marketplace, Indigenous People, and additional critical issues in the Kingdom of God. The Samoan Choir stirred up the crowd with 2 special songs of exuberant praise and worship!

    I thank the Lord for giving me (Pastor Jason) the exciting opportunity to pray for the Children and Youth of Australia to become the Holy Spirit Revival Fire of the Glorious Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to the Nations of the World! At the altar, more than 150 young people (under 25 years old) received impartation prayer and commissioning to do and to become the supernatural miracles, signs, and wonders of God in their generation! (Acts 2:17-18, Isaiah 8:18)

    We thank our loving Father God in heaven for the few beautiful atheists who gathered outside the National Australia Day Prayer Gathering to protest! Most of the Christian crowd ignored their opposition by simply worshipping the Lord although some had the opportunity to share the love and truth of Jesus with them!

    Dr Jackson from the USA encouraged the Body of Christ in Australia to trust in the Lord as our Shepherd! (Psalm 23) Many were mightily touched by the prophetic Word from the Lord and the presence of God! Pastor Daniel also received his Honorary Doctorate of Divinity Degree from St Thomas Christian College in Jacksonville, Florida, USA. Dr Jackson officially conferred this degree on him and then pronounced, “from today you shall now be called Dr Daniel Nalliah.” At this point the whole crowd erupted in a standing ovation of highly emotional shouts of joy and praise to God!

    Then the lovely wife and beautiful children of Dr Daniel joined hands with him, along with his sister and her husband who had travelled all the way from Sri Lanka for this very special day, to thank their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for this wonderful honour. With tears of joy, Dr Daniel shared, “I do not deserve this. It is nothing but the grace of God. I thank you all for standing together with us as a family and ministry. I know for sure that we can reclaim Australia for Jesus. We cannot let another generation pass by. I believe that we in this generation will see the promises of God and His prophetic destiny for our nation of Australia fulfilled in this Great South Land of the Holy Spirit.”

    The service finished with the singing of our national anthem as many were in tears, thanking the Lord for our great nation of Australia!

    To order the DVD ($15 plus $5 postage) of the National Australia Day Prayer Gathering in Melbourne please email angeline@catchthefire.com.au or call (03) 9794 8211.

    A complete photo gallery will be available on website this Thursday.

    Rising Up Australia and the Nations as His Kingdom Comes,

    Jason Golden
    Catch the Fire Ministries”

    From http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/2010/01/27/750-800-christians-unite-to-pray-for-australia-at-national-australia-day-prayer-in-melbourne/

    Lance (Group Sects) writes…

    Perhaps Nalliah is disappointed that the Wiggles received an Order of Australia and his nomination was knocked back, and that’s why he’s gone for the BYO fake doctorate option for Australia Day.

    Conferring the ‘doctorate’ was Zamekio Jackson, founder and President of St. Thomas Christian College of Jacksonville, Florida.

    So what do we know about ‘Bishop’ Jackson and his College?

    Well, here he is in action.

    Jackson’s St. Thomas Christian College makes the following claims on its website.

    “Saint Thomas Christian College and Theological Seminary are full members of the Southeastern Association of Christian Colleges

    Saint Thomas Christian College has authorization to grant degrees by the Florida State Board of Independent Colleges and Universities under section 246.083 (1), Florida Statutes.”

    http://greateducation.com/home

    None of these claims check out at all.

    The address listed for the accrediting institution (the ‘Southeastern Association of Christian Colleges’), 402 Tabernacle Rd, Ehrhardt, SC does not exist.

    There is no ‘Tabernacle Rd’ in Ehrhardt, South Carolina.

    This forum post sheds more light.

    “Hmmm, St. Thomas Christian College and Theological Seminary? Hmmm, accredited by the Southeastern Association of Christian Colleges (a play off of the legitimate Southern Association of Colleges and Schools). It is funny that in the “schools” information pages it even gets the name of the bogus accrediting body wrong on a 2nd page about accreditation (it is also grammatically incorrect with regard to case, etc.) LOLOL This place is a serious diploma mill. The name of the “college” itself is a rip-off of the name of the legitimate St. Thomas University of Miami Gardens, Florida (which is a Catholic college, run by the Augustinian Friars).”

    http://www.rateitall.com/r-2144742.aspx

    As for its ‘authorisation to grant degrees’ by the Florida State Board of Independent Colleges and Universities, that body is now called The Commission for Independent Education.

    This legitimate commission DOES authorise, for example…

    A classy place school of pet grooming
    W.J Weems Hair & Nail Academy
    Ace Bartending Academy
    Casino Dealers Academy

    https://app1.fldoe.org/cie/SearchSchools/

    And the Government department recognises the previously mentioned legitimate (Catholic-run) St. Thomas University http://www.stu.edu/ but it does NOT recognise Zamekio’s “St. Thomas Christian College” as claimed.

    Here’s another interesting web reference to St. Thomas Christian College.

    “Bahamian Neil Ellis is a religious con artist. After years of ripping off and conning fellow Bahamians, he finally hit on a surefire way to scam people… pretending he was a pastor.

    The impish scam artist started his own church, appointed himself a “bishop”, then proceeded to bilk old women out of their hard-earned cash. He is currently one of the richest men in the Bahamas.

    Now, he’s making a career out of religious fraud.

    Ellis has paid some disreputable little school in the US to give him a meaningless “doctors” degree, so he can look as if he can actually read and write, which I understand he can not.

    Ellis was bestowed a useless Doctorate of Divinity degree during another of his staged events on Sunday.

    “Dr.” Ellis was recognized by St. Thomas Christian College, Jacksonville, Fla., a little known institution that gives out degrees to anyone who will pay for them.”

    http://www.bahamascommunity.com/blog/archives/2005_09.html

    Here’s a bit more about St. Thomas Christian College from the man himself.

    The College ‘campus’ appears to be a multi-purpose one.

    It appears to be in the same building at 570 Ellis South Jacksonville as the Westgate Church…

    But it should be pointed out that the church and Jackson’s ‘college’ do not appear to be directly connected.

    Danny Nalliah further notes on the Catch The Fire blog…

    “The Guest speaker [at the Australia Day meeting] Dr. Jackson from the USA is a mighty man of God who is the president of an International Bible College and oversees 348 churches across America. He is a man of prayer who has experienced many mighty miracles as he travels across the nations to minister the Word of God.”

    http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/2010/01/24/national-australia-day-united-prayer-on-january-26th-2010-in-melbourne/#more-3115

    According to the St. Thomas Christian College website, Zamekio Jackson oversees the ‘Association of Bible Churches’

    “Association of Bible Churches International is the umbrella organization for over 342 churches in the United States and 151 Church overseas. This organization is designed to assist minister with church planting and ordination. We understand that man recognizes but God only can truly ordain. If your church is looking for a covering or you desire ministerial credential please complete the section bellow. Please understand our staff of Elders will work with you to insure that your ministerial needs are completely met…….”

    http://www.greateducation.com/ordination

    Basically Zamekio has set up his own (unaccredited) college and denomination and if you cough-up the fees you and your church can join too. It’s a business, including the usual lucrative speaking circuit scenario, not a ‘ministerial oversight’ situation. At best, this is a misrepresentation by Nalliah.

    The Florida Times-Union, in an article published only 11 days ago gives a true insight into the degree of ‘influence’ of ‘Dr’ Zamekio Jackson.

    “……Education builds discipline and your earning potential,” said the Rev. Zamekio Jackson, co-pastor of Kingdom People Christian Center, a year-old non-denominational church at 600 Edgewood Ave. S. “A lot of our members have a poor self-image and need encouragement and confidence.”

    Jackson, a 1985 Lee High School graduate, grew up in Murray Hill and said he is enjoying serving the dynamic area. The church has more than 200 members on paper; however, about 30 to 75 show up for 10 a.m. Sunday services……..”

    http://jacksonville.com/community/the_sun/2010-01-16/story/jacksonvilles_kingdom_people_christian_center_preaching_education

    So Nalliah has accepted an ‘honorary degree’ from a self-appointed Bishop of a tiny Florida church which runs an ordination mill business from a back office in the suburbs of Jacksonville.

    Anyone who calls him ‘Doctor Nalliah’ should see a real doctor.

  2. From http://www.jesusallaboutlife.com/tag/zamekio-jackson/:

    Passing the Vibe

    According to the Catch The Fire Ministries blog:

    Dr Jackson from the USA encouraged the Body of Christ in Australia to trust in the Lord as our Shepherd! (Psalm 23) Many were mightily touched by the prophetic Word from the Lord and the presence of God! Pastor Daniel also received his Honorary Doctorate of Divinity Degree from St Thomas Christian College in Jacksonville, Florida, USA. Dr Jackson officially conferred this degree on him and then pronounced, “from today you shall now be called Dr Daniel Nalliah.” At this point the whole crowd erupted in a standing ovation of highly emotional shouts of joy and praise to God!

    Then the lovely wife and beautiful children of Dr Daniel joined hands with him, along with his sister and her husband who had travelled all the way from Sri Lanka for this very special day, to thank their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for this wonderful honour. With tears of joy, Dr Daniel shared, “I do not deserve this. It is nothing but the grace of God. I thank you all for standing together with us as a family and ministry. I know for sure that we can reclaim Australia for Jesus. We cannot let another generation pass by. I believe that we in this generation will see the promises of God and His prophetic destiny for our nation of Australia fulfilled in this Great South Land of the Holy Spirit.”

    Now, I don’t totally disregard Danny’s words in the above. “I do not deserve this.” – There’s a statement I have no problem with.

    This man, legitimate winner of such awards as the Gold Ernie for most sexist public utterance of 2009, and Best Sideshow Barker, Mount Ainslie Circus, thinks he’s got a doctorate.

    Now, whoa a minute while we go over some preamble to the ceremony…

    Is this Jackson fellow a doctor, as in actual Ph.D, earned by writing a proper dissertation and bestowed by a reputable university? It’s uncertain. Zamekio Jackson seems to spend a lot of time bestowing honorary Ph.Ds throughout the States. Danny’s is only special in that it involved overseas travel.

    “The Guest speaker Dr. Jackson from the USA is a mighty man of God who is the president of an International Bible College and oversees 348 churches across America. He is a man of prayer who has experienced many mighty miracles as he travels across the nations to minister the Word of God.” – Catch The Fire blog, 24 Jan 2010… but Groupsects blog got to the bottom of the Jackson empire of 300 churches to find “Basically Zamekio has set up his own (unaccredited) college and denomination and if you cough-up the fees you and your church can join too. It’s a business, including the usual lucrative speaking circuit scenario, not a ‘ministerial oversight’ situation. At best, this is a misrepresentation by Nalliah.”

    And the college bestowing this honorary degree that Danny seems keen to trade upon? “
    I’ve spent several weeks digging into this ‘College’ and nothing about it checks out at all.

    Thanks to Google maps Street View you can cross check the addresses of facilities and none of them match up.

    Where there’s supposed to be a college campus, there’s just a row of houses. Where there’s meant to be a church, there are empty shops. Or the address given simply doesn’t exist.” – Groupsects
    Chasing myself up here, but I just did some research via Google Maps and Street View on the “college” that’s awarding Danny “Cash In On The Fire Ministries” Nalliah an honorary doctorate (which he better not start treating like a real one)… “Google Maps Link to St Thomas Christian College – 1624 Edgewood Avenue West, Jacksonville, FL, United States” shows a tinpot couple of houses and a parking lot.

    The 570 Ellis Rd S, Jacksonville address shows a building the size of a small-town hardware store (about 50 car parks), next to the Mental Health Center.

    6507 West Beaver Street, Jacksonville, the “Seminary and Graduate School”, appears to be an abandoned petrol station. – Black, in the AFA forums
    The address listed for the accrediting institution (the ‘Southeastern Association of Christian Colleges’), 402 Tabernacle Rd, Ehrhardt, SC does not exist.

    There is no ‘Tabernacle Rd’ in Ehrhardt, South Carolina.

    This forum post sheds more light.

    “Hmmm, St. Thomas Christian College and Theological Seminary? Hmmm, accredited by the Southeastern Association of Christian Colleges (a play off of the legitimate Southern Association of Colleges and Schools). It is funny that in the “schools” information pages it even gets the name of the bogus accrediting body wrong on a 2nd page about accreditation (it is also grammatically incorrect with regard to case, etc.) LOLOL This place is a serious diploma mill. The name of the “college” itself is a rip-off of the name of the legitimate St. Thomas University of Miami Gardens, Florida (which is a Catholic college, run by the Augustinian Friars).”

    Ah, St Thomas, ever dubious!

    So, basically, somebody who may not be a doctor, from a university that isn’t really a university, confers a degree that isn’t actually a degree on Danny.

    Danny Nalliah is The New Non-Doctor!

  3. Last thing, and this is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills:

    “A diploma mill (also known as a degree mill) is an organization that awards academic degrees and diplomas with substandard or no academic study and without recognition by official educational accrediting bodies. The purchaser can then claim to hold an academic degree, and the organization is motivated by making a profit. These degrees are often awarded based on vaguely construed life experience. Some such organizations claim accreditation by non-recognized/unapproved accrediting bodies set up for the purposes of providing a veneer of authenticity.

    While the terms “degree mill” and “diploma mill” are commonly used interchangeably, within the academic community a distinction is sometimes drawn:

    · A degree mill provides a “real” degree from a fake college.
    · A diploma mill provides a fake degree from a real college.

    Medical diploma mills have operated, and have been blacklisted, in the United States for over 120 years.”

  4. You may find it interesting to note that the AOG (USA) addressed this issue in 2007 – they call it “perpetrating a fraud upon the church and the world”

    quoting the bylaws here:

    a. Attribution. In order to maintain our testimony of quality and integrity in educational credentials before the Church and the world, and to minimize the possibility of our ministers and churches being
    victimized by, or supporting, or perpetrating frauds in education or credentialing, we maintain certain standards for the attribution of degrees, certifications, and titles.

    (1) Attribution by ministers. Our ministers shall refrain from listing, promoting, or attributing to themselves or others any degrees or titles conferred by institutions or organizations having, at the time of conferral, a formal accreditation status less than that of our appropriately corresponding Assemblies of God institutions (whether our institute, regional university, or seminary levels).

    b. Intentional failure to comply.
    Intentional refusal to comply with this ethical standard for educational credentials constitutes
    perpetrating a fraud upon the church and the world, personally and in the good name of the Assemblies of God, and the General Council disapproves of such practices; …

  5. that is awesome, not the fraud, but the info you provided, thanks. 🙂

    I just heard a talk/ sermon from fighting for the faith I think which said 500,000 fake diplomas are issues each year in the United States alone. That is shocking!

  6. I think Ps Simon McIntyre has a proper degree in Theology, from the SCD, Sydney College of Divinity, is this correct?

    Makes me wonder how such a smart man can continue to believe the lies perpepuated at him from above. (PP)

  7. I think Ps Simon McIntyre has a proper degree in Theology, from the SCD, Sydney College of Divinity, is this correct?

    Makes me wonder how such a smart man can continue to sit under such woeful teaching. (PP)

  8. @ John – 100% agree re Simon McIntyre, and you are right about that degree. Very telling that he had to outside their own college to get it.

    How can he sit under the ministry? There’s a saying that goes around C3 – “Its all good”, as if everything will work out in the end. Pity the poor sheeple sitting there being fed goat food in the meantime.

  9. I am under the impression that TVD attended the same “bible college” I did 20 years ago. The lecturers were all “eager beaver can I be the teacher?” attendees/pastors.

    There were truly no qualified lecturers back then – so does that qualify me to pastor, as a woman of course, at TVD’s church?

  10. We had one of the female pastrixs “lecturing” on various doctrines. When it came to predestination, she said it was all too hard to understand – we all sat there (having paid $3000 dollars for the year) waiting for her brave comment “it’s a door and when you look back there’s a sign above that says predestined”. Subject closed.

    Didn’t have to do an assignment on it unforunately, might have left C3 20 years ago?

  11. @Teddy – Its amazing how you are not even alowed to sell a peice of land as someones agent without a licence but any joker can hire out a community hall and have a bash at an enterprise that was once regarded as as the “queen of sciences” because it informed and illuminated all other branches of knowledge…..

    I might have a bit of a look McClarty too.

  12. Another contradictory pearl of wisdom from TVD

    “Do a word search for “covering” and you’ll find the only reference is to women covering their heads in church.”

    Besides the fact that any doctrine including “Apostolic Covering” cannot be ipso facto disregarded because you cannot find the exact words in any given phrase or sentence of the scriptures by means of a “word search” (i.e. the following are other words that the Bible does not specifically use but the concepts are clearly taught: Trinity, Athieism, Monotheism, Incarnation) – What logical basis does TVD, a pastor/teacher, have to appeal to scripture for concepts requiring authoritative validation when he believes that “inspiration does not equate to infallibility.”?

    According to TVD – “whilst God may inspire a man to write, what he writes is coloured by his own beliefs and world-views.”

    C R A P – that is not what the Scripture teaches about its own Authority and inspiration – that is just heresy and more false teaching from a false teacher.

    Given that all 66 books of the Bible were written down recorded by means of human agency therefore, based on TVD’s reasoning, any position on any subject taken from scripture is nothing more than fallible human opinion which is “coloured by [the author’s] own beliefs”

    Why do you appeal to scripture at all TVD if these scriptures are a product of human authorship alone and not superintended by the third Person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit, and as a consequence the very words of God.

    Again, why refer to scripture if the statement “but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” is NOT TRUE but rather a subjective opinion “coloured by [Peter’s] own beliefs” as opposed to being the divine process of prophecy by means of human agency as described by the Apostle in 2 Peter 1:21 “For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

    “What Paul writes he represents to be “the commandments of the Lord” ( 1 Cor. xiv. 37), which he therefore transmits in the name of the Lord (2 Thess. iii. 6); and the gospel that Peter preached was proclaimed in the Holy Ghost (1 Peter i. 12). Every Scripture of the Old Testament is inspired by God (2 Tim. iii. 16), and the New Testament is equally Scripture with the Old (1 Tim. v. 18); all prophecy of Scripture came from men who spake from God, being moved by the Holy Ghost ( 2 Peter i. 20) and Paul’s Epistles differ from these older writings only in being “other”; that is, newer Scriptures of like kind (2 Peter iii. 16). When we consider the promises of supernatural guidance which Christ made to his apostles (Matt. x. 19, 20; Mark xiii. 11; Luke xxi. 14; John xiv and xvi), in connection with their claim to speak with divine authority even when writing (1 Cor. xiv. 37; 2 Thess. iii. 6), and their conjunction of their writings with the Old Testament Scriptures as equally divine with them, we cannot fail to perceive that the apostles claim to be attended in their work of giving law to God’s Church by prevailing superintending grace from the Holy Spirit. This is what is called inspiration. It does not set aside the human authorship of the books. But it puts behind the human also a divine authorship. It ascribes to the authors such an attending influence of the Spirit in the process of writing, that the words they set down become also the words of God; and the resultant writing is made not merely the expression of Paul’s or John’s or Peter’s will for the churches, but the expression of God’s will. In receiving these books from the apostles as law, therefore, the Church has always received them not only as books given by God’s agents, but as books so given by God through those agents that every word of them is God’s word.”

    Benjamin B Warfield “The Authority & Inspiration of the Scriptures”

    http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/bbwauthority.htm

  13. @5point

    You’re such a child. I can now see why you get so upset and so hung up over such meaningless and stupid things! So I guess I will have to speak to you like I would to a four year old:

    In the big people’s world there is a thing called “discernment”. This big word means “the ability to judge well”. Most big people, when they hear or read something are able to work out for themselves the meaning of what they are reading, and draw their own conclusions (there’s another big word – it means “a judgment or decision reached by reasoning”). The problem is, some big people are so silly that they will read something someone says and take it so literally (this means “exactly”) that they make themselves look even more silly. Sometimes they do this because they are not very smart, but sometimes they do it because they are simply being complete idiots trying to prove some weird point that doesn’t exist.

    Understand now 5point?

  14. @TVD – “Understand now 5point?”

    not really – what is your authority by you make such theological distinctions?

  15. @5point

    “what is your authority by you make such theological distinctions?”

    What “theological distinctions” are you referring to?

  16. @5point

    “every word of them is God’s word.”

    Really? Even those words spoken by Job and his friends, which God rebuked in Job chapter 38?

  17. Just a thought, maybe that is dangerous from me, but I too went to c3 bible college 20 something years ago, and even though it wasn’t an Anglican or catholic college with hundreds of years of theological wisdom behind them, it was still a good year. Many of the disciples were sent out with not alot of theological knowledge, some did have, but they all obeyed. God used them all.

  18. @ Glittergirl – Who was their Teacher? We can’t compare the two.

    I scored very high marks at college, but when I went back over those assignments a few years ago, I saw the errors. It was so embarrassing that after nearly 20 years, I consigned them to the garbage where they belonged. The “lecturers” were simply not qualified to teach and people were paying good money for that total lack of expertise.

  19. @TVD – yes, theopneustos refers to the inspiration of the words i.e. the recorded information not the divine inspiration of writers or speakers or more specifically “special divine influence on the minds of the writers of the Bible, in virtue of which their production, apart from errors in transcription, and when rightly interpreted, together constitute an infallible rule of faith and practice.”

    “….while they wrote or spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, they nevertheless remained thinking, willing, self-conscious beings whose peculiar styles and mannerisms are clearly traceable in their writings. If their native tongue was Hebrew, they wrote Hebrew; if it was Greek, they wrote Greek; if they were educated, they wrote as men of culture; if uneducated, they wrote as such men would write. We do not separate the divine and human elements, but insist that the two are united in perfect harmony so that every word of Scripture is at one and the same time the word of God and also the word of man. The writers themselves make it plain that in this process the divine influence is primary and the human secondary, so that they are not so much the originators but rather the receivers and announcers of these messages. Hence what they wrote or spoke was not to be looked upon as merely their own product, but as the pure Word of God, and for that reason it was to be received and implicitly obeyed.” (L Boettner http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/boettner/boettner_inspiration.html#part3)

    Why would Job chapter 38 necessarily have to be an exception?

  20. @5point

    What you have copy and pasted is what I have been saying. So, what do you believe then? You can’t have it both ways.

    “Why would Job chapter 38 necessarily have to be an exception?”

    Do I really need to explain it?!

  21. I agree that some of the sessions were not the best, but I still thought it was a good year. It does concern me now that young people do 2 to 3 years with no real qualifications at the end of the course and the cost is huge. With the years behind me now, I can see that there is alot of room for improvement, but most of us here would agree on that particularly with the prosperity doctrine that is preached in the church.

  22. I tried bible college there part time about 15 or 20 years ago. After the third session, I didn’t bother going back. I was looking for teaching with a bit more meat in it than there was in the Sunday sermons. It was very absent. Perhaps I was unfair, since I was also studying an unrelated course at university, and the comparison was pretty terrible. Not long after that, I changed churches.

  23. Also, glittergirl, I agree that its pretty bad for young people to do several years, and find themselves with a qualification with limited application (since I suspect many churches wouldn’t regard it highly). Useful within the denomination or similar ones I guess though.

  24. That’s right RP, only within the denomination. It is a worry that many of these kids go in thinking they will achieve full time work, and there are only limited opportunities.

  25. Graduating from C3 Bible College qualifies students to go on building the “vision” by planting new churches – this is certainly troubling, how is that “pastor” qualified to teach?

  26. Teddy, I listend to a very timely and interesting sermon today on fighting for the faith, it was talkinga about how “vision casting” is not Biblical and at last I felt like, “yes, someone gets it.”

    Will fill you in more about me and how long I have been there when I get around to emailing specks

    Cheers

  27. In the last few years, we have been ministered to by 4 students studying at Moore College. Two of them at our church this year, one an ex-Mormon also qualified as an accountant, the other an ex-Buddhist also qualified as an architect. Prepared to give up those careers and become ministers and missionaries.

    All of them had more biblical integrity and as much passion as any we ever heard at C3. The first student minister we had was not Anglican but independent, wanting to start a church in Queensland and prepared to put in years of study to help achieve that goal.

  28. @Glittergirl – “many of these kids go in thinking they will achieve full time work, and there are only limited opportunities.” with respect the ones who do get “gainfully employed” in “ministry” end up frauds who get paid for a job they DO NOT nor CAN NOT do because they are not equiped…..

  29. @ John – Try this link. it’s also available on Itunes as podcast.

    “Saying What Is Right About God”
    http://www.salvationbygrace.org/

    Which episode of “Fighting For The Faith”? I’ve listened to them and I’m up-to-date with all the podcasts. Just refresh my memory! 🙂

  30. I’ve been talking to students that go to the bible schools. The majority overall see Pringle as a doctor.

    Path- etic!

    Anymore information available on Pringle or Kong Hee’s doctorate backgrounds would be superb. I do not want this article to be vague.

  31. That may be so, but the tragedy of this all is that the kids go to college with great intentions, hopes and dreams of serving God. When I was there 20 years ago it wasn’t about the money at all, it has changed so much.

  32. @ Glittergirl – it’s not about the money even now. The only ones who profit are those who get on the preaching circuit (and have their own “product”), the others barely get by.

    They are encouraged to write books by PP. Someone (a muso at C3) wrote a book a few years ago that slammed by Matthias Media because it was just soooo bad – I read the review and the major cause for complaint was blatant misuse of scripture.

  33. Guess what, I got the bargain of the century last month!!! I picked up a copy of Brian Houston’s “You Need More Money” for the princely sum of $1. If only the content was Biblical 😉

  34. I have a question, do pastors/ preachers/ “prophets” pay a tithe on the love offerings they receive while on tour?

  35. Teddy, it is the one about the Crystal Cathedral, but only I have not got to that part yet. I must email specks and pass on my email address so we can talk further 🙂

  36. @5point

    “the ones who do get “gainfully employed” in “ministry” end up frauds who get paid for a job they DO NOT nor CAN NOT do because they are not equiped”

    Who said that you can only be equipped by attending a mainstream bible college? Oh, that would be the Calvinist.

  37. “In the last few years, we have been ministered to by 4 students studying at Moore College…” – Teddy

    That’s ironic. Truth is, I first became interested in C3 because of the Moore College crowd at my previous church. I credit them with my exit from the Sydny Anglican church and my ultimate arrival in Pentedom! I was (unknowingly) a Calvinist back then but they convinced me I didn’t want to be one any more. 🙂

  38. I went to the same church at a different time. Those people were awful. So smug. Can’t remember quite which Jensen it was though. “God always does …”, “God will never …”. Such arrogance.

    Not that I’m bitter.

  39. @TVDoctor of Divinity – “Who said that you can only be equipped by attending a mainstream bible college?”

    Ahh who was that guy who recommends that you dont go to the Phillipines for cheap surgical procedures again?…? Kommon Freaking Cense or something like that….(dunno – sorry!)

  40. @Heretic – how certain are you that those people who ascribe such attributes to God are so awful, so smug, and so arrogant…..

    Isnt positing something like that with so much certainty awful, smug, and arrogant in and of itself and begging the most important question of whether or not you are just over-reacting to what you perceive as detestible modernist principles such as the use of sharp classifications of identity, unity, authority, and certainty?

  41. interesting argument here.

    2 things I’d like to point out.

    1) Without any knowledge of the Bible we’d have nothing to preach/teach.

    2) Without the equipping of the Holy Spirit, we will achieve nothing!

    Word without Spirit => you dry up.
    Spirit without the word => you blow up.
    Spirit and Word together => you grow up.

    Incidentally, taking a small part of any book in the Bible is like taking a small part of a chemical compound designed to save your life. Some bits will not kill you, other bits will, but only the whole part of it will have the desired effect.

    The whole book of Job is necessary to get the message God wants us to get from it.

    If you make John 3:16 the whole of your Gospel and take one verse from his letters “God is Love” then you get a sentimental view of God who will never display His wrath on the world and who therefore is powerless to do anything to stop evil.

    But when you have taken in the whole New Testament, you see a righteous God who delights in making us righteous too. Paul tells us that the Gospel is a Gospel of Righteousness. Jesus took away our sins and gave us His righteousness. And now we can be reconciled to God through faithfulness to Jesus.

    How Amazing!!!

  42. @ everybody – so my experience of Moore College students is invalid because of your own experience (or because I’m reformed in my views)?

    I was pleasantly surprised after 22 years at C3 to find out –

    1: There is a real church world and committed Christians beyond C3.

    2: That Moore College students are as “passionate” for the gospel as any pentecostal.

    3: That a minister will have a Q&A at the end of each service, admit not having all the answers apart from the revealed Word and will not go beyond that revealed Word into fanciful “opinions”.

    4: That the Lord answers the prayers of believers in an Anglican church that doesn’t insist you “tithe”.

  43. @teddy

    “so my experience of Moore College students is invalid because of your own experience”

    Not at all. My time at Moore College was great (if not a little stuffy). The point I am making is that mainstream church/study is being held up by you and 5point as being the ONLY source of true doctrine. I learnt some rubbish at Moore, and rubbish at other places. C3 college doesn’t hold all the aces regarding bad doctrine.

  44. Teddy, I’m not implying your experience is invalid. It’s just that its funny that you are discovering this world after C3, whereas in my case, it helped move me into C3.

    Incidentally, my Anglican church minister did tell the congregation that they should tithe, in order to be blessed. So much can come down to the actual minister.

    My old Anglican church had close ties to Moore College. I also went to UNSW where Campus Bible Study was run by Phil Jensen. In those years, I had plenty of exposure to people involved with Moore College. Without a doubt, their education is far more rigorous than anything you will find at C3OF. Also, they were always passionate about their faith.

    It was the attitude that was the problem, as I’ve always said here. There was an attitude of intellectual superiority towards others of different backgrounds, which in some ways was the mirror of the attitude of spiritual superiority which I later found in some of the leadership within Pente circles.

    However, at a one to one level, I’ve always had friends of both backgrounds. When I was at C3 I never personally doubted the commitment, passion or spiritual life of other believers outside C3, regardless of what was said from the pulpit. I knew too many other Christians, mainly from non-Pente evangelical backgrounds, to think otherwise.

    My last Pente church, prior to its change in leadership, actually had a senior pastor who was educated at Moore College.

    In my view, Moore College gives a good education. However, because it is run by the Sydney Anglicans, just like any theological college run by a particular church brand, it will teach what suits that brand, with its own inherent biases, which are apologetically supported to be truth. Go to another quality college, run by a different church, and they may have a different set of biases.

  45. @Bull

    “If you make John 3:16 the whole of your Gospel and take one verse from his letters “God is Love” then you get a sentimental view of God who will never display His wrath on the world and who therefore is powerless to do anything to stop evil.”

    It’s not just this passage that tells of God’s love. His love is shown on every page.

    “But when you have taken in the whole New Testament, you see a righteous God who delights in making us righteous too. Paul tells us that the Gospel is a Gospel of Righteousness. Jesus took away our sins and gave us His righteousness. And now we can be reconciled to God through faithfulness to Jesus.”

    Absolutely! Let me ask you though Bull, how do you reconcile the “wrathful” killer God of the Old Testament that 5point and teddy worship, with the righteous loving God of the new, especially in light of the fact that He cannot change and there is no evil in Him?

  46. My addendum to RP’s comment is that the doctrinal biases are shown up by behaviour. The tree is shown by its fruit.

    Moore College biases seem to encourage people to act in a patronising and elitist way. So much so in my experience that even people in the churches they run tend to act in the same way.

    The culture is the end result of the doctrine. Hebrews says we should observe the end result of people’s faith. If it leads the fruit of the spirit then their faith is not in vain.

    If people’s doctrine and their faith do not cause them to be conformed to Jesus’ likeness then their faith is in vain. These people are not to be emulated. (Or for extreme cases of people not growing in the fruits of the spirit they are not to be listened to (since Jesus said be careful about who you listen to)).

  47. TVD – “how do you reconcile the “wrathful” killer God of the Old Testament that 5point and teddy worship, with the righteous loving God of the new, especially in light of the fact that He cannot change and there is no evil in Him?”

    No problem reconciling and loving the OT & NT God at all. He’s God and we are not. As they say, context, context, context.

    Have a ready answer, about the Flood, for Heretic yet?

  48. @teddy

    “No problem reconciling and loving the OT & NT God at all. He’s God and we are not. As they say, context, context, context.”

    The problem is teddy, context isn’t just comparing one scripture with the one next to it, or in the next chapter. Context involves the whole of God’s word, and while you can certainly find other scriptures to support your doctrine in the Old Testament, the context of the bible as a whole, not to mention the fact that Jesus came to show us the true nature of the Father, shows that you are wrong

  49. @ Heretic – is this an ongoing experience with Moore College grads?

    We have only met those (7 all up including 2 ministers, 1 visiting student)at 2 churches and they are not like that at all. In fact they are more real,sincere and a whole lot of fun to be around, than some we know at C3. We actually have a life now that is not consumed by the “church” (no doubt you would understand that!).

    I can make the same application about C3 now that we have left – we are so “pitied” for not being in that elite club anymore. You know, that “extra-biblical revelation” club, that “dream/vision casting” club, that “financially blessed because we tithe” club. 🙂

  50. @ TVD – no, it shows that I am right! And I certainly do mean the whole bible in context, context, context. 🙂 🙂

    Gosh, it sure “felt” good to say that!!

  51. @teddy

    “Have a ready answer, about the Flood, for Heretic yet?”

    Haven’t had the time. School holidays so spending some quality time with the family. I am looking forward to answering though.

  52. @teddy

    Ok, here’s a challenge. Prove to me that God is a wrathful, killer God using the words of Christ, Paul, Peter, John, Matthew, Mark and James

  53. T@ TVD – you’re the one calling Him a wrathful, killer God.

    My call is that He is sovereign, He allows children/people to die for reasons we don’t/won’t always understand until Christ returns and He does EVERYTHING for His glory.

  54. Pascal says “People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.”

    We would all love to have the God we can control or a God whose behaviour is subject to our decision – it’s our sinful nature wanting that God.

  55. TVD I agree with you, I went to an Anglican / Moore inspired church for several years when I first became a Christian.

    Yes TEDDY, great Biblical teaching which set me up for life, but I agree with TVD that they have made a few mistakes too. I don’t want to dwell on them, but there certainly was an elitist feel to it regarding the Bible and their way being the only way, which incidently seems a bit like C3. I would say that after years of dry teaching at my anglican church which was linked with moore/ matthias media I wanted to branch out, thus I gradually ended up in more “spirit” inspired churches.

    Only problem was I feel c3 and alot of pente/ charo churches have gone the other way and are way out there making an idol of the spirit of God. So I have had both extremes, thankfully I am still following God and now am looking to plant my feet somewhere where there is middle ground.

  56. @teddy

    “He allows children/people to die”

    Deliberately withholding the healing power of Jesus for some reason – a killer God! A God who can take you out at any time – a killer God!

    Don’t you get it? Death is an ENEMY of God. How can He use death? It’s the devil doing all the killing NOT GOD!

    It’s not rocket surgery teddy. Use your brain instead of your expereience.

  57. @ John – how long ago was that experience? Our minister is dealing with that mindset with some of the older congregation. He is a young man, formerly a maths teacher, graduate of Moore, and his teaching/preaching and sermons would qualify for a “good” banjo version on Fighting For The Faith! 🙂

    We never lost our zeal for the gospel and evangelism when we left C3, we brought that to the church we providentially found ourselves in. Interestingly, there were other ex-C3’s already there, so it was a very pleasant surprise to see old friends.

    Unfortunately sometimes it seems, on this blog, if you declare yourself “reformed” you’re a rabid anti-spiritual gifts/cessationist etc etc. This is simply not the case.

    As has been said before, for example our minister would allow “tongues” if they are represented biblically i.e. tongues with interpretation. He wants the church to operate in the gifts that the Lord has given to individuals to edify the church body (and properly so).

  58. @ TVD – I find nothing consoling or healing in your approach to how the Lord operates in our world. The fact is, people die. And NOBODY dies before their time.

    Psalm 139:16 “Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.” NASB

  59. @teddy

    “I find nothing consoling or healing in your approach to how the Lord operates in our world.”

    Really???? So, I say God is only good, that He loves us, that He doesn’t kill us, and that He has provided healing and salvation (sozo) through His Son, and you say “I find nothing consoling or healing in your approach to how the Lord operates in our world.” You’re nuts!

    “The fact is, people die. And NOBODY dies before their time.”

    Agreed. When have I ever said they don’t?

  60. Perhaps TVD should study and meditate on all of 2 Peter chapter 3 and see not only God’s mercy but His judgement as well.

  61. I’m curious as to how TVD consoles someone who has lost a child or loved one. Does he tell them it’s all Satan’s fault because God’s hands are tied and He couldn’t prevent it? And if that’s the case, why would anyone want to trust in that powerless God?

    Or does he tell them that he doesn’t have all the answers but tells them, though we live in a corrupt world subject to death, disease and tragedy, He is in control and can be trusted even in the death of a loved one.

  62. @Teddy – it seems TVD keeps on gettting himself in logical conundrums – he is quite happy to embrace the attribute of God that we know as His mercy but not the attribute known and His wrath – but without His wrath, how is His mercy even relevant, indeed without God’s wrath, there is no Gospel.

    I love what Paul Washer said in this regard:

    “One of the greatest needs other than preaching the gospel and true conversion is to teach on the attributes of God, because people basically don’t know Him.

    “If I were to go into most churches and preach on the attributes of God, what would happen about midway through that week is you would have faithful church members who have been there for forty years who would stand up and say,

    ‘That’s not my god, I could never love a god like that'”

    AND INDEED TVD – Y O U D O N T…….there is no fear of God before your eyes

    “When God for even a moment expresses His wrath by withdrawing His hand of restraint from the sinfulness of mankind, we are shocked at the results (and, in sinfulness, then blame God for allowing such a demonstration to take place). The link I am about to provide is one of the most shocking, disgusting examples of the perversion of the human soul I have ever read. Be warned, but, be aware. Here you read the story of a female “art” student at Yale who had herself impregnated repeatedly and then used abortifacient drugs to induce multiple miscarriages. Her “senior art” project includes (be warned again!) videos of the miscarriages and collections of blood from the process. One of the surest signs of the wrath of God upon a culture is seen here.”(from AOMIN.org)

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351730,00.html

  63. @5point

    “there is no fear of God before your eyes”

    Of course not. I am not scared of God. If, however, by “fear” you mean “reverence”, then yes, I revere God wholeheartedly.

    I actually don’t give a rats about what Paul Washer thinks. My authority is the word of God. Let me ask you 5point, do you have any thoughts of your own? Or do you rely on other people to do your thinking for you?

    Let’s have a look at the names of God as listed in His Word, and what those names mean:

    JEHOVAH-JIREH: “The Lord will Provide.” Gen. 22:14. From “jireh” (“to see” or “to provide,” or to “foresee” as a prophet.) God always provides, adequate when the times come.

    JEHOVAH-ROPHE: “The Lord Who Heals” Ex. 15:22-26. From “rophe” (“to heal”); implies spiritual, emotional as well as physical healing. (Jer. 30:17, 3:22; Isa. 61:1) God heals body, soul and spirit; all levels of man’s being.

    JEHOVAH-NISSI: “The Lord Our Banner.” Ex. 17:15. God on the battlefield, from word which means “to glisten,” “to lift up,” See Psalm 4:6.

    JEHOVAH-M’KADDESH: “The Lord Who Sanctifies” “To make whole, set apart for holiness.” The Lord says: “Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the Lord your God. Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the Lord, who makes you holy.” (Leviticus 20:7-8)

    JEHOVAH-SHALOM: “The Lord Our Peace” Judges 6:24. “Shalom” translated “peace” 170 times means “whole,” “finished,” “fulfilled,” “perfected.” Related to “well,” welfare.” Deut. 27:6; Dan. 5:26; I Kings 9:25 8:61; Gen. 15:16; Ex. 21:34, 22:5, 6; Lev. 7:11-21. Shalom means that kind of peace that results from being a whole person in right relationship to God and to one’s fellow man.

    SHEPHERD: Psa. 23, 79:13, 95:7, 80:1, 100:3; Gen. 49:24; Isa. 40:11.

    JUDGE: Psa. 7:8, 96:13.

    JEHOVAH ELOHIM: “LORD God” Gen. 2:4; Judges 5:3; Isa. 17:6; Zeph. 2:9; Psa. 59:5, etc.

    JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU “The Lord Our Righteousness” Jer. 23:5, 6, 33:16. From “tsidek” (straight, stiff, balanced – as on scales – full weight, justice, right, righteous, declared innocent.) God our Righteousness.

    JEHOVAH-ROHI: “The Lord Our Shepherd” Psa. 23, from “ro’eh” (to pasture).

    JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH:”The Lord is There” (Ezek. 48:35).

    JEHOVAH-SABAOTH: “The Lord of Hosts” The commander of the angelic host and the armies of God. Isa. 1:24; Psa. 46:7, 11; 2 Kings 3:9-12; Jer. 11:20 (NT: Rom. 9:29; James 5:4, Rev. 19: 11-16).

    EL ELYON: ‘Most High” (from “to go up”) Deut. 26:19, 32:8; Psa. 18:13; Gen. 14:18; Nu. 24:16; Psa. 78:35, 7:17, 18:13, 97:9, 56:2, 78:56, 18:13; Dan. 7:25, 27; Isa. 14:14.

    ABIR: ‘Mighty One’, (“to be strong”) Gen. 49:24; Deut. 10:17; Psa. 132:2, 5; Isa. 1:24, 49:26, 60:1.

    BRANCH: (tsemach), The Branch: Zech. 3:8, 6:12; Isa. 4:2; Jer. 23:5, 33:15.

    KADOSH: “Holy One” Psa. 71:22; Isa. 40:25, 43:3, 48:17. Isaiah uses the expression “the Holy One of Israel” 29 times.

    SHAPHAT: “Judge” Gen. 18:25

    EL ROI: “God of Seeing” Hagar in Gen. 16:13. The God Who opens our eyes.

    KANNA: “Jealous” (zealous). Ex. 20:5, 34:14; Deut. 5:9; Isa. 9:7; Zech. 1:14, 8:2.

    PALET: “Deliverer” Psa. 18:2.

    YESHUA: (Yeshua) “Savior” (“he will save”). Isa. 43:3. Jesus is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew “Joshua.” The latter is a contraction of Je-Hoshua. (“Christ”, the anointed one is equivalent to the Hebrew Maschiah, or Messiah).

    GAOL: “Redeemer” (to buy back by paying a price). Job 19:25; For example, the antitype corresponding to Boaz the Kinsman-Redeemer in the Book of Ruth.

    MAGEN: “Shield” Psa. 3:3, 18:30.

    STONE: (eben) Gen. 49:24

    EYALUTH: “Strength” Psa. 22:19.

    TSADDIQ: “Righteous One” Psa. 7:9.

    EL-OLAM: “Everlasting God” (God of everlasting time) Gen. 21:33; Psa. 90:1-3, 93:2; Isa. 26:4.

    EL-GIBHOR: Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)

    TSUR: “God our Rock” Deut. 32:18; Isa. 30:29.

    You see the name “killer” in there? What about the word “sovereign”?

    By the way, God’s “wrath” is reserved for those who have denied Him and His Son at judgement. Nowhere in the New Testament is wrath used to refer to believers.

  64. Why do believers die, if not at “their appointed by God” time? Are you saying their deaths are not ordained by God, even though all their days are “ordained before one of them came to be”?

  65. And do you “give a rats” as to what Joseph Prince thinks, seeing his books are so promoted by you and yours?

  66. @teddy

    “I’m curious as to how TVD consoles someone who has lost a child or loved one. Does he tell them it’s all Satan’s fault because God’s hands are tied and He couldn’t prevent it? ”

    I tell them that we live in a fallen world. People die. Satan is the god of this world. He is the father of lies and a murderer. He instituted death in this world when Adam sinned.

    The fact is that God has ALREADY provided healing and salvation through His Son. God doesn’t need to do anything because it’s ALREADY been done. His hands aren’t tied, because He is seated in heaven with Jesus at His right hand.

    As I keep asking teddy, and getting no answer by the way, if God is doing the killing (or standing by and doing nothing, thereby withholding His healing) what is the devil doing? Soaking up the sun in the Bahamas sipping Pina Coladas? No, he is roaming to and from on the earth looking for someone to devour.

  67. “I don’t want to dwell on them, but there certainly was an elitist feel to it regarding the Bible and their way being the only way, which incidently seems a bit like C3. ” – John Smith

    Exactly. That’s what I was referring to when I mentioned the intellectual elitism mirroring the spiritual elitism at C3.

    Having said all that, of course there are people in both of these kinds of places that don’t have these elitist attitudes.

    Teddy, if you haven’t discovered the elitism, it could either be because your minister doesn’t have that attitude – which hopefully is the case – or because it is not so obvious when you are in agreement with them. It is most noticeable in their attitudes expressed towards those who don’t agree with them. (Though there are those in both types of church who express these attitudes from the pulpit regardless – eg: Christine Pringle has, and so has Phil Jensen, re those they consider unenlightened who call themselves Christian.)

    I have some friends going to a local Anglican church which sounds like it does do some wonderful work in their community, and it is very unlike the one I experienced all those years ago.

    Because these attitudes seemed to spring at the time from the Jensens and the Moore College crowd, and their influence has only grown since then, it is hard to imagine that the attitude has disappeared.

    It is interesting that the Sydney Anglicans and the Pentecostals seem to be the most growing movements in Sydney these days. Both very passionate. Both in a way encouraging people to believe that they have the ‘right’ answers, or are the place to be, and not ‘over there’ where people are either missing out or are deluded.

    John Smith, good luck in your search for middle ground. I think it exists but isn’t necessarily easily found, depending on where you live.

  68. @teddy

    “And do you “give a rats” as to what Joseph Prince thinks, seeing his books are so promoted by you and yours?”

    If Joseph’s doctrine wasn’t biblical, then, yes, I wouldn’t read his stuff and I wouldn’t pay attention to his teaching.

  69. WOF proponent Joseph Prince likes to boast of “standing on the shoulders of giants” like Kenneth Hagin and EW Kenyon. Doesn’t float my boat.

    @RP – don’t you think that 22 years of, pardon me, bs, hasn’t made me very wary of getting duped by unsound theology? Not that my church is anywhere near perfect! We have pews!!!!! 🙂

    If I could get away with it, I would kick back and enjoy the rest of my life without bothering to go anywhere, seriously! But the internal pull for fellowship with believers is far stronger than my spiritual inertia, and we gave certainly been blessed in relationships lately.

  70. I’m sure its made you very wary!

    Are you having a go at me for ‘not bothering to go anywhere’? Just checking, because I thought you accepted my stance on that.

  71. No, not all! Just admitting my failings when it comes to getting involved again after the last 22 years. We took time out for a while and eventually missed the fellowship of fellow believers – the only ones we knew were still at C3 or those who were going through the same emotional upheaval we were (and we avoided each other for a while, it was so painful).

    I’m not averse to meeting as a house church, by the way. Our church is so small, it can be almost classed as just that! They could all fit in our house that’s for sure.

  72. 5 Point and TVD reminds me of the Rumble in the Jungle.
    They just keep goin’ at it.

    @Teddy, Finding a church where you “fit” can be hard. A house church can be good – but they can also have there own problems. A good thing to do is find someone and have coffee or whatever. “Wherever two or three are gathered”.

    It’s a pity they never had blogs in the first century as I’d be interested to know about the daily life of believers. We know they didn’t meet in church buildings, but from house to house, upper rooms, etc etc. I think they were probably allowed to go to different houses from time to time. At any rate I’m not sure they were assigned to a home group which arbitrarily was split up when it reached 12, 15 or whatever as per cell-group programs today.
    (But I’m willing to learn, so if any has any sources, let me know).

  73. Yes, we have been fortunate in being able to still see previous fellow congregation friends regularly. There was tension with a small number, but that has basically been worked through now – the friendships were more important. Also, some other friends have moved on since we did, and we now know a larger group of people who are in a similar position to us. In fact, we benefited by delaying our leaving for about a year before we actually went, waiting until we were sure about God’s timing. (We were blessed because we had a real choice, not being driven by any incidents.) We’ve found in some ways these days our circle has widened, and there are connections to other groups exploring different things, which are also worth investigating.

    If I were to go to another church (which might happen one day) at the moment, I’d prefer a smaller one, like you describe.

  74. @churchman

    “5 Point and TVD reminds me of the Rumble in the Jungle.
    They just keep goin’ at it.”

    Yeah I know! Funny huh?! I’m happy to let it go, but for some reason he and teddy keep bringing it up all the time.

  75. @ TVD – Bringing what up?

    You are taking time to comment but still haven’t answered Heretic’s question (and that’s one answer I’m looking forward to seeing)

  76. @churchman

    They actually worshipped together daily in the temple and not in a “house church” as has been incorrectly taught. They only went from house to house “breaking bread”, which means sharing a meal as was the Jewish custom. There is no record of them living in communes or worshipping in houses groups.

  77. @teddy

    “Bringing what up?”

    Sovereignty, wrath, suffering etc. Admittedly, it’s more 5point bringing it up, you just join in when he starts it.

    “You are taking time to comment but still haven’t answered Heretic’s question ”

    Getting there teddy. Patience!

  78. @ TVD – considering context, we need to look at Acts 20:20 as well “You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house.”

    During that time of persecution, not only by other Jews but the occupying Romans as well, it was dangerous to meet as a public gathering in large numbers.

  79. @TVD – You are the one who keeps on bringing up the denial that God has indirectly/directly caused the death of men, women and children in the Scriptures saying God has never killed anyone.

    In that regard you juxtaposed Exodus 12:12 with Hebrews 11:28 saying that Hebrews 11:28 rightly ascribed the passover killings to the “destroyer” or satan BUT according to you “inspiration does not equate to infallibility. Whilst God may inspire a man to write, what he writes is coloured by his own beliefs and world-views.”

    How do you therefore know based on your OWN reasoning that the author of Hebrews take on the passover killings was free from being “coloured by his own beliefs”????

    I am really interested how you get around pitting these scriptures against each other like this when you have said that you hold to the doctrine of plenary verbal inspiration (God inspired the complete text(s) of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, including both historical and doctrinal details)?

  80. TVD, I think you are quite a smart person from what I read, but I wonder if you are on this forum just to argue with people? Just a thought is all.

    By all means, a good discussion is healthy, but sometimes I think you are trying to get a rise out of people.

    Teddy, maybe I should attend your church, do you live in Sydney?

  81. @John Smith –

    “TVD, I think you are quite a smart person from what I read”

    smart people do not consistently contradict themselves

  82. @John Smith

    “I wonder if you are on this forum just to argue with people? ”

    I will admit I do enjoy robust debate!

    In truth, I keep coming back because in my own social circle I am not usually exposed to people with beliefs such as those held by people here. I find that, even in the cut and thrust of the arguments here, I am learning things that I wouldn’t in the environment that I am in. As much as I disagree with much of what teddy and 5point believe, it has been invaluable for me to see what other belief systems there are out there. You can learn about these doctrines and philosophies in college, but until you hear it from the horses mouth, so to speak, it only remains an academic argument.

    “I think you are trying to get a rise out of people.”

    Not at all. There was one point a while back where I began a little social experiment to see how people such as 5point and teddy, who both had a reputation on Signposts of being arrogant bullies, would handle having some of it thrown back at them. It was amusing to see how apoplectic they would get, but it got to a point where I felt I had to stop. Now, they seem to get apoplectic every time I post something without me even trying!

  83. I’m an arrogant bully now? LOL!! Excuse while I just check in the mirror……………………………
    …………………………………………………………………..?

    No, just a sinner saved by sovereign grace. Whew, had me worried fo a minute!

  84. @ TVD – was part of your “social experiment” to suggest that it’s God will that women should not experience pain in childbirth? That God is not sovereign?

    Now I get it! It was all a joke, right? 🙂 🙂

  85. Phew!! and hasnt the rhodes scholar TVD given us a run for our money!!!! I particularly liked TVD’s musings on the Patristic Fathers teaching on indugences and the treasury of merit 8 centuries after the last Church Fathers died…..

    TVD – from now on I am going to call you “The African Queen” (after the 1951 film with Bogart and Hepburn) because you seem quite content spending your life floating around in a long river running through Africa called “denial”

  86. He sure pulled that woolly jumper of semi-pelagianism over our eyes, the little dickens! Feel like we got “punked”.

  87. @5point

    “How do you therefore know based on your OWN reasoning that the author of Hebrews take on the passover killings was free from being “coloured by his own beliefs”????”

    I gave you my answer. But, in the spirit of 5″copy and paste”Point, here it is again:

    You’re such a child. I can now see why you get so upset and so hung up over such meaningless and stupid things! So I guess I will have to speak to you like I would to a four year old:

    In the big people’s world there is a thing called “discernment”. This big word means “the ability to judge well”. Most big people, when they hear or read something are able to work out for themselves the meaning of what they are reading, and draw their own conclusions (there’s another big word – it means “a judgment or decision reached by reasoning”). The problem is, some big people are so silly that they will read something someone says and take it so literally (this means “exactly”) that they make themselves look even more silly. Sometimes they do this because they are not very smart, but sometimes they do it because they are simply being complete idiots trying to prove some weird point that doesn’t exist.

  88. @teddy

    “I’m an arrogant bully now? LOL!! Excuse while I just check in the mirror”

    Where is everyone? Oh that’s right! They got so sick of being bullied and abused they now all visit Reflection Room!

  89. @teddy

    “was part of your “social experiment” to suggest that it’s God will that women should not experience pain in childbirth? That God is not sovereign?”

    No. If you had read my reply to John properly, you would have seen that my “social experiment” (actually, that’s a fairly apt description) ended a long time ago.

  90. Yes, I visit Reflection Room too. And people still come back and blog here as well.

    This blog might be like that Kramer T-shirt at times

    ” He’s a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can’t look away…..”

    But it sure is fun! 🙂 🙂

  91. @teddy

    “considering context, we need to look at Acts 20:20 as well “You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house.””

    Thanks teddy. I have found myself the unfortunate victim of not reading a post properly! I read churchman’s post as referring to the church in Jerusalem, but upon reading your reply, and re-reading his post you are dead right. The early church did meet in the temple in Jerusalem and not people’s homes in the beginning, but then after the persecution of the church began the only place they could meet was in people’s homes.

  92. @teddy

    “Yes, I visit Reflection Room too. And people still come back and blog here as well.”

    Ask mn why he left. What about Greg the Explorer? RP? Sure, she comes back occasionally, but if you refer back to her post re starting her blog you’ll see the point I am making. You are not as much of an arrogant bully as 5point, but you still are arrogant.

  93. @teddy

    “This blog might be like that Kramer T-shirt at times

    ” He’s a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can’t look away…..”

    But it sure is fun”

    That’s true. I have decided a number of times never to come back, yet, here I am!

  94. Perhaps, and that’s a view you’re entitled to.

    The onus is on you to prove that God is not sovereign, a view I certainly deem as theologically “arrogant”, in light of all of God’s revealed Word.

    You seem to think you have proved that?

    MN quite clearly challenged you over the “painfree” childbirth issue, and you have yet to satisfy any women let alone men here that your view is correct.

    That is definately one of the arrogant statements I have ever read. And so judgmental against those of us who had painful labours. Following up on MN’s comment that some women experience litle or no pain, I fall into that category. My first 2 were very painful, number 3 an absolutely delightful painfree birth (go figure!), and the next 2, well, by number 5, I had an epidural and thank God for that. All small babies too.

  95. @The African Queen (TAQ)

    Great! – so you know that the author of Hebrews take on the passover killings was free from being “coloured by his own beliefs” and is to be prefered over that of Moses in Exodus by your OWN (presumably infallible) ability “discern” or “to judge well”….. in other words by means your own subjective experience(of course then this is not a valid argument and is again simply begging the question and assuming the answer)

    For a laugh we will grant the moronic premise above – now I am really interested how you get around pitting these scriptures against each other like this when you have said that you hold to the doctrine of plenary verbal inspiration (God inspired the complete text(s) of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, including both historical and doctrinal details)?

  96. Wow, Teddy, that’s amazing that you had a pain free birth after two very painful ones – and then the two after which sounded normally painful. Just shows how different birth experiences can be.

    I went to Juju Sundin’s birth classes before my first one, and her pain distraction techniques were helpful, but I still had an epidural in the end – which only worked on one side of my body! (Juju’s techniques give you a good chance at a drug free delivery, but these days we all have the option of pain relief and I caved in and took it!) Anyway, I counted myself blessed to have two healthy children without needing a Caesarian. I know 3 women who had 24 hours of labour pain, and then Caesarians – a nightmare in each case. One nearly died of blood loss – her husband will never forget her passing out – he thought she was dying. Well, she was – but doctors intervened and she was saved. But all the kids are healthy and that is the biggest blessing of all – whatever pain there was has been left behind.

    One of the most amazing testimonies I know is friends of mine whose baby went for 10 minutes without oxygen during the birth process. Today, that child is completely mentally unharmed. You would never know. They appealed for prayer to churches they’d been a part of around the world. A whole lot of heartfelt prayer was made, and I believe that God in His mercy answered by saving their child from brain damage.

    At the same time, this does not happen for everyone. And it is not something that I would blame parents for in terms of their faith.

  97. @teddy

    “Following up on MN’s comment that some women experience litle or no pain, I fall into that category. My first 2 were very painful, number 3 an absolutely delightful painfree birth (go figure!), and the next 2, well, by number 5, I had an epidural and thank God for that. All small babies too.”

    Firstly, let me state, I have never said that women can EXPECT a pain-free birth. I only ever said it is AVAILABLE. And you are a testament to that. I feel for you that you also had a traumatic time with your others, but, you have experienced what many women haven’t. Isn’t your testimony enough proof that the possibility exists?

  98. I wasn’t a Christian when I had my children. My youngest was 3 years old when the Lord so wonderfully interrupted our lives.

    @ RP – one of our daughters had an amazing delivery. The impossible happened, as a witness, we all believe, to an unbelieving doctor, who had a praying wife (also a doctor). A deformed child, observed on ultrasound, not deformed. A caesarian not required thought the placenta was totally covering the cervix at 38 weeks. I was at the delivery and he was waiting to perform that caesar, there was no way he believed she could deliver normally. A beautiful, perfect little girl.

    @ TVD – we do believe and do pray for God’s intervention and His will be done daily. We do see His sovereign hand in so many ways.

  99. Forgot to add, our daughter, and all our family/friends were praying for that baby too, she didn’t waver in her faith that the Lord would bring about a good result.

    Actually don’t see evidence of 5 Point “cut and paste” TVD. Not hard to check and he does acknowledge when he does, we all do it at times.

  100. @ TVD – I should add that as a believer I had 2 miscarriages, and felt the Lord’s wonderful comfort through it all.

  101. Teddy, that is a good testimony – the Lord being with you through both your miscarriages.

    These days, that is what I do believe the Lord has promised us. Not to spare us every pain or sickness, though at times he intervenes mercifully, but to be with us as we go through them.

    Whether it is through them, and working them together for good over time, with us emerging out the other side, or, with us emerging into physical death, but into His Presence, He is with us. Even in the wilderness when we can’t feel His Presence.

    If we never suffer, would we know God the way we do when we walk through things with Him?
    I am not even saying that He brings suffering upon us, but He allows it to happen, as a result of this fallen world, and of our sin and that of others, or perhaps as part of a process that needs to happen for some other reason. And He works it for good. And our ultimate good is to be conformed into His image.

    Our desires and the way we think things should be achieved would spare us pain, but wouldn’t necessarily bring about good.

  102. Call it “intellectual misanthropists intuition” or just a “still small voice” but I percieve there are little violins playing “my heart bleeds for you” in certain “safe places” of the bloggisphere where at least 2 peanut flickers I know, who give as good as they take, are free to go when they are finished making unqualified and uneducated ctriticisms, strawmen arguments, and even slanders against the Biblical Reformed Christian Faith. Their post-modern sensibilities are being upset, they dont want to be accountable or challenged for what they say in the public domain and both have shown they are neither inclined nor able to be consistent in their argumentation or interaction.

  103. The “epistemologically humble” impartial post modern pair of volinists though, are jointly and severally the biggest haters of the reformed faith (in quite a passive aggressive seething way), yet neither show much indication of having ever understood what reformed believers actually believe and can posit by way of a defence for their faith – because they simply refuse to turn their mind to it….

  104. @5paste

    What the heck are you talking about? Still infected with the Christmas “spirits” are you? Jack Daniels be thy name?

  105. TVD

    Lol @ ROBUST DEBATE… Do you too live on the Nthn Beaches? Perhaps you me and Teddy can get together for a coffee and banter?!

  106. I think everyone needs to take a chill pill! It is getting heated in here.

    TVD – what is your background, do you attend C3 or Hillsong or do you align yourself with an Anglican church? I would quite like to hear about some of what you believe.

    You said you are in a social circle that does not believe much of what is said here, just wondering what then you actually believe?

    Not wanting to have a go at all, just curious to know a bit more about you.

  107. @John

    No worries mate. The more time you spend here the more you will realise we are all fairly harmless. Even the name calling between me and 5paste is really all a bit of fun. We may get passionate about our beliefs, but, when you boil it all down, we are all born again believers. We just have different ideas about what the bible says about certain things!

    I got saved and spent the first 10 years of my Christian life in the Anglican church. Bought into the whole “tongues are of the devil” rubbish, burnt my secular records on a huge church bonfire, made fun of the pentes, and basically wallowed in self-righteousness. Then one weekend I went to a local pente church with my girlfriend and fell in love with their freedom, their enthusiasm and their expression of their love for God. I left the Anglican church for good after that and embraced the pentecostal style of worship. I eventually moved to the Northern Beaches and attended CCC (as it will always be known to me) at Brookvale. Eventually I became a staff member and stayed there for about 16 years. I left Sydney 10 years ago and now pastor a church of around 200 awesome people with my wife.

    My social circle consists of old friends from CCC, my work colleagues, my family and members of my church, so, while I come across many types of doctrines and beliefs, I have to say I haven’t yet come across such dogmatic belief systems as I have seen here, hence my earlier statement. As for my beliefs, they are here in various places on SP02. Ignore the misquoting and exaggeration of my posts from 5paste and teddy though!

  108. @ TVD – what exaggeration? All anyone has done is requote your original comments back to you, and not out of context. Seriously, in all our years at C3, we never heard the strange things you have put forward here.

    @ John – if you can get TVD to reveal what he actually believes, apart from his view that God is NOT sovereign, we will all be much the wiser. Perhaps TVD doesn’t like 5Point’s approach to the topic. It’s as if TVD has taken a little bit of everything he ever heard and liked and patched together an entirely new theology. Like in Enid Blyton’s “Magic Faraway Tree” he helped himself to “the land of take what you want”.
    A question for you, do you believe our God is a sovereign God or subject to man’s will?

  109. Thanks TVD, as you said, by early church I wasn’t meaning the church in Jerusalem.

    re childbirth, I wonder whether that’s why more women tend to believe in God. Men mainly feel in control of everything, but women who go through childbirth realize that there comes a point when you have to rely on something outside of yourself.

    Anyway, I am so grateful that I was “predestined” to be a man.

    “arrogant bullies”? – nah, they’re sweet little pussycats.

  110. @ Churchman – Not sweet little pussycats just “hounds Of Heaven”! 🙂 🙂 🙂

    “The name is strange. It startles one at first. It is so bold, so new, so fearless. It does not attract at once, rather the reverse. But when one reads the poem this strangeness disappears. The meaning is understood.

    As the hound follows the hare, never ceasing in its
    running, ever drawing nearer in the chase, with unhur- rying and imperturbed pace, so does God follow the
    fleeing soul by His Divine grace. And though in sin or in human love, away from God it seeks to hide itself,

    Divine grace follows after, unwearyingly follows ever
    after, till the soul feels its pressure forcing it to turn to Him alone in that never ending pursuit ”

    Try putting that on a T-shirt!

  111. @ Churchman – my son got a rather large tattoo recently (as a pastor and with his wife’s approval!)

    He compared it to childbirth, and I’m thinking, “No, you can walk away mid-tattoo”, and seriously with most labours, when it gets too hard, we women just want to give up and go home. But we can’t and the joy following is worth it.

  112. @Teddy – no, quite wrong, there is such a thing as a pain free tatoo – its not Gods will that we experience pain during tatooing.

  113. Does anyone know Pastor Martin Gale from Kruger Parade Baptist Church in Redbank, Queensland?

    Well good ol’ Pastor Martin decided he was going to put straight that thare ‘Calvinism’ business FOR GOOD!! and he accordingly preached a bit of an anti-calvinism rant last Sunday.

    Anyways, a brother from Brisbane sent Dr James White (of Alpha & Omega Ministries and the podcast “The Dividing Line”) Pastor Martin’s sermon – Dr White saying “given that it illustrates perfectly the kind of resistance biblical theology faces from man-made traditions, we will listen in tomorrow on a special Radio Free Geneva edition of the Dividing Line.”

    (Radio Free Geneva editions of the Dividing Line are special editions that deal with people’s anti-calvinist rants and objections to Reformed Theology)

    Heres the program (see link below) – quite entertaining – GO MARTY-BOY YOU GOOD THING!!
    http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4367

  114. @teddy

    ” It’s as if TVD has taken a little bit of everything he ever heard and liked and patched together an entirely new theology. ”

    No, its just that you can’t fit me into your little “evil pente pastor” box and you are completely confounded.

  115. TVD: “I tell them that we live in a fallen world. People die. Satan is the god of this world. He is the father of lies and a murderer. He instituted death in this world when Adam sinned.”

    Care to elucidate on the idea that it was Satan who instituted death?

  116. How did we get so far off topic? Any chance we can stick to the thread in this section? I would really like to know more about all these degrees and the like people are running around with.

  117. Sorry John Smith, but I just have to say it – I can’t stand tattoos and body piercings. But especially tattoos. Can’t believe a spirit-filled God-loving person would do that to the Temple.

    Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.

  118. Ouch Teddy – I spoke too soon. That was your SON who got the tattoo. ……….

    um. eh…each to his own! lol

  119. Churchman: “Can’t believe a spirit-filled God-loving person would do that to the Temple.”

    Unless you want your temple to be relevant.

    I once heard it said, ‘Tattoos are the stain glass windows to my temple’. I asked them if they were Catholic. They hated that question and didn’t get any more.

  120. “irstly, let me state, I have never said that women can EXPECT a pain-free birth. I only ever said it is AVAILABLE.”

    TVD, that final statement is not the impression I got from your posts on the subject. But what does “available” mean?

    Most people who know enough people have heard of women who have had relatively pain free births. I’ve even heard of women who enjoyed it!!

    But if you have a biblical teaching that the curse of painful childbirth has been broken and you can “believe for it” or whatever, that sounds a lot like people sitting under that teaching would “expect” to have no pain, and then feel somehow defective if they did feel pain. So I’m not really following you.

    Okay John Smith – back to the original. First, I don’t think most people call themselves Doctor, or allow themselves to be addressed as Doctor, on the basis that they have an honorary doctorate – and that’s even in the case of one from a prestigious university.

    My beef with the Pentecostals, is that a lot of the TV preachers pride themselves on NOT having been to seminary, ridiculing those who do, and talk about how they got where they were by believing and following the Holy Spirit as opposed to “head knowledge” receive at the “cemetery….oops seminary” (if you’ve been around you’ve heard that line several times.

    BUT, starting from several years ago, every TV evangelist and his dog began to be called DR….

    It probably bother those who have done the hard yards at real universities more than others.

    And yes, I know a guy who proudly says he has a doctorate in theology, but he actually got it in a few years of internet study.

    Ironically, the people with qualifications talk about them less than the people with the dubious ones – which is telling.

  121. Amen churchman!
    The amount of self promotion, double standards and self promotion is disturbing among dubious Pentecostal leaders.

  122. Specks, yeah, its just totally baffling to me over the years to see all these DR letters turn up before the names of people who built their ministries criticizing academia.

    On another level, another irony is that a lot of people put in a lot of effort – time, money, commuting etc to get a bachelors degree, to then get difficult, demanding jobs and then tithe and see that money spent on paying the salary of someone who can send away a few papers written on church time, checked by church staff and then end up being called DR in such a short time.

    But it happens in other religions too. There’s a religion in Asia where the leader has more honorary doctorates than anyone on earth. (And his religion happens to also have made very substantial donations to the same universities).

    Nothing better than starting a religion, getting the people to donate, using their money, but then getting personal benefits and recognition. It’s not just Christianity. ..If that’s any consolation.

  123. @churchman – all is forgiven, my husband told him he should have had a soccer ball tattooed on his “butt” so he could kick it! 🙂 The tattoo is a religious one with a scripture as well.

    There are several C3 pastors’ wives who started the trend a few years ago, you just can’t see them.

  124. @Teddy – me and TVD want to know if it was a “pain free” tattoo?

    We also want to know if you listened to Pastor Martin Gale from Kruger Parade Baptist Church in Redbank, Queensland anti calvinist rant get taken apart on the dividing line?

  125. @ Churchman – Sorry to go off topic, but google “Outlaw Preacher” Jay Bakker, son of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, if you want to see some tattoos, it’s the latest pastoral trend by the way.

    It’s all about being culturally “relevant”. If you have them, fine – just don’t get them thinking you will attract people to the gospel!

    Wonder how long it will be before Ed Young Jnr gets one (if he hasn’t already)?

    The fake sleeve tattoos from the Easter Show are fun though. 🙂

  126. @ 5 Point – not yet. I got distracted by Chris Rosebrough’s latest upload today, I’ll listen tomorrow.

    And no, it was not a pain-free tattoo! He said he was close to tears but didn’t want his wife and son seeing him cry!

  127. @ 5 Point – I sadly missed out on seeing James White in Sydney when he was here. He was at an Anglican church on the north shore. I listened to the podcast later though, very good.

  128. churchman, well i agree, have been holding my tongue for days. I hate tats also and don’t like the idea of defacing your body when them. I thought it was in such bad taste when James Murray (c3 youth pastor) stood up on a sunday night church to reveal to all his new tat of Jesus (I think) on his upper arm.

    Such a bad example, esp with impressionable teens who might follow suit. Just my two cents worth. Anyway, am off happy new year all

  129. Well done – I listen to his Sunday sermon and Wednesday night study every week as well as well as progress through all the books of the bible he’s already covered. Permanent Ipod fixture, my “drug” of choice is good teaching. My husband’s favourite too.

    Don’t know if you have heard of Lane Chaplin, he’s trying to get his favourite Lutheran Chris Rosebrough to meet his favourite Calvinist/ Sovereign grace guy Jim McClarty. Now that’s a great combination.

  130. Why not be a professor? How about honorary doctorates given to sportspersons and movie stars?

    It’s interesting that a doctor reverts back to the title of Mr. not Dr. when they advance in their studies.

  131. Did Todd Bentley have anything to do with the tattoo trend – or maybe it was why he became so popular??

    Churchman – re everything you have said re doctorates for those who have been so dismissive about ‘seminary training’: You have picked up on the irony absolutely. It is ridiculous really.

    And this comment:

    “On another level, another irony is that a lot of people put in a lot of effort – time, money, commuting etc to get a bachelors degree, to then get difficult, demanding jobs and then tithe and see that money spent on paying the salary of someone who can send away a few papers written on church time, checked by church staff and then end up being called DR in such a short time. ”

    Yes – very ironic. Especially when at times those people were belittled for wasting their time on secular degrees when they could be aiming to do something more valuable in God’s kingdom.

    It was a bit like that at C3 Brookvale when I was there – fortunately my next church was nothing like that. But I know what you are talking about!

  132. Agree with all re the tatts, too. Being promoted as trendy in a church environment to show how cool or relevant people are – not so good, when people will end up keeping these things for the rest of their lives.

    At least if people are going to get a tattoo, hopefully its because they want one regardless, rather than because they are following a pastor who is deeming it trendy.

    Our last minister actually preached that men should wear their shirts out because it was more fashionable and would appeal to visitors more. I guess the tattoos are the same thing. So the message on its own isn’t good enough?

  133. @RP – Todd Bentley’s tattoos were fairly recent but before the Lakeland debacle. I remember seeing clips of him a few years ago and he didn’t have any that could seen.

    Specks mentioned outside lecturers coming in to teach at C3 Colleges, that a recent introduction?

  134. On the subject of tattoos and doctorates 🙂 – did anyone ever read Ray Bradbury’s “Illustrated Man” or see the movie?

  135. Ha! We’ve already had a lovely afternoon having our neighbours over for drinks. Now the kids are in bed and its not the night to get a babysitter anyway. Am now going to watch some TV and look back here later.

  136. Teddy, I was thinking of Daisaku Ikeda of Japan. But the Moonies are another example – they have a lot of money to throw around.

    Wow, I thought I was going to get creamed about the tattoo comment. But, yeah, it’s not just the fact that I think the human body is great the way it is – but the permanency. There are a lot of things you can do to be culturally relevant if you feel the need, but they can be over with tomorrow. But a tattoo stays. And we all know people who have to live with a long forgotten girlfriends name on their arm or back etc.

    The other trouble with being culturally relevant is that the church is usually one or more steps behind anyway, so we often seem like wannabees.

    “Our last minister actually preached that men should wear their shirts out because it was more fashionable and would appeal to visitors more”

    See this is where Pastors just go way beyond what they need to be saying. You go to one church, and the Preacher tells you not to dress worldly, or go to movies or whatever, then the next Preacher is making people feel bad because they don’t dress worldly enough, or don’t see movies.
    Same with sex! Some ministers seem to feel the need to address issues that the bible is silent on, and then the next guy is telling people to have sex every day.

    Shirts in vs shirts out, don’t wear makeup vs makeup classes for God’s princesses, don’t do this kind of sex vs sex everyday, vision, taking cities, soaking meetings, worship evangelism, purpose driven, yada yada.

    It all seems so unnecessarily complicated and…well, unnecessary.

    RP, that Preacher is funny. Again the irony. The really cool people don’t have to worry about following all the fads. And who defines what visitors to church will be impressed with anyway.

    But isn’t there enough to preach about without adding in all the rest?

    Happy New Year in advance people!
    Any New Year’s Resolutions?
    Remember that 2011 is going to be the year of awesome increase and revival, and I just really feel, that it’s going to be, just a really awesome decade and …

    Sorry, only kidding!

    But, one thing I am sure of is that the steadfast love of the Lord will never cease.

    Have a nice night! Thanks for the memories!

  137. “Let me ask you though Bull, how do you reconcile the “wrathful” killer God of the Old Testament that 5point and teddy worship, with the righteous loving God of the new, especially in light of the fact that He cannot change and there is no evil in Him?”

    Jesus was once asked after a local disaster if the people who died were especially wicked. He answered that “all deserve death … there is no one good but God”

    The Loving Father of Jesus is also a God of Wrath. God is responsible for the Tsunami that killed 250,000 people. I deserve a violent and premature death for I have offended God Almighty. I have sinned against Him and spurned His love. On the day of Judgment, I will have to stand before Jesus the Judge of all humanity and give an account of all I have done in my life on Earth.

    Satan, the accuser, will call me an adulterer and a murderer. (My thought life is also under consideration) … but Jesus will simply say that for me, although I will be pronounced guilty as charged, the price has been paid.

    That’s why the Cross was necessary. In the Cross of Christ, Wrath and Mercy meet.

    If God is not sovereign, then the cross is unnecessary. Moreover, the questions abound:

    Does God only have power in the hereafter?
    Do I even need to be reconciled to a powerless God?
    Am I already forgiven, even if I don’t believe?
    Is there any justice?
    Will Jesus even have to come back? and if so, what for?

    In an effort to cope with the unpalatable idea of God being responsible for genocide, (see the destruction of the tribes around Israel ), TVD has gone for the idea that God just wrings His hands and shrugs His shoulders and says “what can you do?”.

    The truth is that God isn’t responsible. Humanity is responsible. The death of Nations is deserved. It is God being righteous that leads to Him commanding King Saul to put everyone to death and even the livestock too.

    It is God being righteous that leads to Israel wandering around the desert for 40 years.
    It is God being Righteous that leads to the exile.

    It is God being righteous that leads to the Holocaust in the 20th Century.

    So now we come to it.

    TVD believes that if God allows or is even directly responsible for these things, it means he isn’t righteous.

    Meanwhile, the Bible clearly teaches that if God is righteous He has to do these things.

    This is why some people in the past have tried to cut out the bits they don’t like from the Bible.

    Marcion did it. He liked the loving Father of Jesus but hated the harsh cruel God of the Old Testament so he cut out the Old Testament to start with. Then he realised he had to cut bits out of the New Testament as well.

    Marcionism was condemned as Heresy … google it.

    TVD, you may want to come up with some bizarre explanation about the authorship of the Old Testament and try and explain stuff away with the authors being culturally conditioned or they were idiots or something like that.

    Jesus doesn’t say anything like that at all. Different authors in the New Testament consistently quote freely from the Old, and even approve the Old Testament for gentile readers.

    I don’t need to say any more … the minute a church leader starts slagging off the Bible in any way, or even wants to add his own writings “to explain” what the Bible is “really” saying, you know that church fellowship is in real trouble.

    Go back in the study and get back to your Bible. I recommend the NIV as a good translation. Stay well away from ‘the message’ as it is a very poor interpretation of the actual Bible.

    If you want to find out about individual books in the Bible, I recommend a book (!?!) by David Pawson “Unlocking the Bible”.

    He touches every book in the Bible and gives background and context … it’s really helped me get back into God’s Word.
    It is not a replacement for the Word of God and it is not infallible, but it helps to bridge the Gap between the first century and the 21st Century.

    By the way, Pawson is not a calvinist. He is not arminian either though Calvinists would probably call him one, while Arminians would probably consider him to be Almost Calvinist.

    I now expect to be slandered by TVD since that seems to be the way things are around here these days.

    Happy New year to you all.

    Shalom

  138. @ Bull – Thanks for that. If I had said it, the accusations againt my “killer” God would have ramped up even higher!

    The tsunami, the holocaust? I agree, EVERYTHING passes through His hands. Col 1:16-17 says that Christ holds all of nature together. James 5:17 talks of God witholding rain.

    The earth reflects the consequences of sin.

    During “natural disasters”, how much is our confidence shaken and our pleas turn to God, not Satan?

    Tribulation? John 16:33 “33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

    How does anyone cope without the Comforter, in light of the fallen world we live in?

  139. teddy – do you have a dummy email address that you sometimes check so I can email you and then you can reply back on your ordinary one???

  140. No, my email is connected to our business. I have another, just haven’t gone online with it yet. Best let Specks know and he can private message me. If you have an email, I am very discreet, seriously. I know that discussing C3 can hurt dearly loved ones that still attend. (Both RP and Specks know who I am and I trust them completely.)

  141. “It is God being righteous that leads to the Holocaust in the 20th Century.”

    And all this time I thought it was Adolf Hitler. Do you realize that if you were a politician and said that you would never be elected, and if you were a teacher in a high school or University you could possibly lose your job?

    There were people responsible for the holocaust by way of both direct action and lack of action. And the holocaust ended because good men defeated the men responsible – and a lot died in the process.

  142. @Teddy – “Francis Schaeffer admirers” – well that makes a grand total of 2 (at this blog at least).

  143. Churchman,
    why did God not prevent the Holocaust? Are they, or are they not His Chosen People?

    I love God’s Chosen People, and the Holocaust led directly to the establishment of the state of Israel.

    Read Deuteronomy 28.

    But in the end, all of God’s Israel will be saved.

    Read Romans 11.

    Incidentally, why does God allow 250,000+ Christians to die for Jesus every year?

    Shalom

  144. @ 5Point – listening to the James White podcast you posted and sadly substituting the pastor for TVD (though I’m sure TVD’s voice would not be so gruff 🙂 )

    @ TVD – would love to hear your thoughts on the podcast as well. It’s not that long and there’s much to be valued in it.

    [audio src="http://www.aomin.org/podcasts/20101230.mp3" /]

  145. This is not so much about Calvinism vs Arminianism – it’s about what does the Bible actually say. Let’s be honest with the whole counsel of God and His text.

  146. @Teddy – I thought exactly the same thing, blind-sided by tradition and a God with only one attribute. When he expressed his disgust over the “Elect” I was thinking of MN too….

    I was hoping a few of the other ex-contributors here who would walk in lock-step with pastor Martin would listen and see how ridiculously shallow and sub-biblical these standard objections are.

  147. Funny, I used to listen Chuck Missler AND Chuck Smith a few years ago, and back then I was unknowingly arminian.

    A lot of water under the bridge now, just can’t see the scriptures apart from His sovereignty, His election etc anymore. It’s all NEON LIGHTs now. 🙂

  148. Yep I am embarrased to say I did too. When pastor Chuck speaks ex-cathedra on an issue – that settles it – standard Calvary Chapel apologetic “but pastor Chuck says….”. Though, I still love my old Calvary Chapel church and have some good freinds that go there.

    I used to listen Chuck Missler too, hes obviously a brilliant fellow and has achieved alot in the engineering world – but he aint no theologian (not in the professional academic sense of the word).

    Becuse of guys like Missler our church became so obsessed with eschatology and the gospel became firstly “what do yea say about Israel?” and THEN “what do yea say about Christ”. Its amazing how much of a cult following he has and his nutty science fiction bible theories…

  149. It must be really disturbing for Ps Chuck that a lot of CC pastors have become reformed, and he is very opinionated about James White!

  150. Excuse my ignorance, who is JAmes White? Have not heard of him.

    Teddy – Did you get my email yet?

  151. @ 5Point – have a listen to this…..

    [audio src="http://www.gcaarchive.com/Audio/QandA/Calling_the_Church_Spiritual_Israel.mp3" /]

    @ John – you may enjoy it too, Jim McClarty, my favourite teacher

  152. Do we have any “mad atheists” on this forum? 😉

    Thanks for the info Teddy, where is DVT, or TVD, miss the banter from him/ her.

  153. Perhaps he’s taking a sabbatical? Or off trying to get enough proof that God was not responsible for the Flood and the death of all except Noah and his family?

  154. @John Smith. “Do we have any “mad atheists” on this forum?”

    Probably not, but I actually sympathize with them is some ways. I know what it is to doubt.

  155. Teddy and 5P, Interesting to hear you talk about Smith and Missler, and the CC movement.
    Chuck Smith is having to deal with all three fronts – the reformed, the purpose driven, and the emergents.

    Some CC people I know really, really esteem Chuck Smith on a level which I find almost disturbing – almost Papal. Missler is one interesting character. But once again, the acquaintances of mine who like him are expecting the rapture anytime there is news about a country in the Middle East. It’s certainly true that Chuck Smith was responsible for a lot of rapture mania in the early 80’s.

  156. Bull and John Smith. I can probably play TVD’s hand.

    “why did God not prevent the Holocaust? ”

    The same reason He didn’t stop all the other murders, rapes, violence – beginning from Cain and Abel.

    “Incidentally, why does God allow 250,000+ Christians to die for Jesus every year?”

    Those who believe in prosperity and “best life now” see martyrdom as an exception when it comes to suffering in the live of the believer. Jesus spoke about it. He never said that God would kill those who follow him with sickness and accidents. But He clearly said that as believers we would face persecution -and that may mean losing our lives.

    But…we would have the choice – free will to deny Christ before men OR NOT. Just like he called some to follow him – some did and some didn’t. And that happens today as it did then.

    Back to the Holocaust. I will give you my honest opinion here and say that I DO NOT believe that in order to create the modern nation of Israel, God planned the holocaust.

    If that’s really your theory the onus is on YOU to prove that. Do you actually believe that?

    For emphasis, I will say it again. I DO NOT believe that in order to create the modern nation of Israel, God had to kill 6 million Jews.

    So, yeah, I probably fit in more with TVD.
    The holocaust was evil. It was the work of insane, evil men. If you like, you could say it was inspired by the Devil. But not God.

    Anyway, if you really believe what you are saying, I suggest that you keep it to yourself if you go on a tour of one of the concentration camps.

  157. @ Churchman – Phoenix Preacher is a blog that has a lot of CC pastors (ex, now reformed or otherwise). The fact that a lot of CC pastors are becoming reformed is really bothering Chuck Smith. I’ve heard him argue very badly about this (I will post a link when I find it, probably on AOM/James White)

  158. Churchman, the holocaust was a hoax. There is no evidence that 6 million Jews died in the holocaust. How many died at Auschwitz? What is the latest figure that they’re touting?

    This is a massive fraud and having read extensively about the purported holocaust there is no way that I can accept that this occurred.

    Auschwitz had a swimming pool for Jewish prisoners. Auschwitz had a drama society for Jewish prisoners. Jewish prisoners got married at Auschwitz.

    All in all, about 300,000 Jews died of malnutrition in concentration camps in Germany and Poland during WWII. They were rounded up by Hitler because there was enormous resentment in Germany towards the Jews who were perceived to have turned on their own country. This is similar to the enormous resentment that many westerners have today towards Jews who run the media and banks and who are running the world into the ground.

    I am definitely not living on the same planet as those who believe that 6 million Jews were gassed. There is zero evidence of gas chambers. The planet I live on is reality.

  159. “Churchman, the holocaust was a hoax. There is no evidence that 6 million Jews died in the holocaust. How many died at Auschwitz? What is the latest figure that they’re touting?

    This is a massive fraud and having read extensively about the purported holocaust there is no way that I can accept that this occurred.” – Chirpy

    I can’t just read this and ignore it. It is one of the most horrendous untruths gaining popularity today.

    Here’s some personal evidence, unless you choose to believe I and my family are liars:

    My father in law visited Belsen when he was a kid, in 1946. His father was one of the soldiers in the royal engineers who helped liberate Belsen. When they liberated the camp, his father saw everything. Loads of dead bodies and living skeletons walking around. Some of his group of engineers gave them chocolate bars, in ignorance of how they’d affect starving people, which killed some of them.

    Later, he took his son, my father-in-law to see the camp. This was in 1946, after the war. He told his son at the time, that it was so bad that one day people would deny this ever happened, but that everyone is capable of doing this. He showed him around the entire camp. My father-in-law saw mounds where they’d buried all the bodies, and the ovens. This has left an impression which has lasted to this day.

    So deny it if you like, but my father-in-law saw it first hand one year after the war, and his father saw it first hand – when he went in to help liberate it.

  160. My husband had clients, sole survivors of large extended families from Vienna, with those permanent numbers tattooed on their arms.

  161. I once witnessed two colleagues who normally got on fine nearly have a punch up over the Holocaust. One said it wasn’t true – he was Arabic (but Christian). The other was Australian/Italian – not Jewish – but was so outraged at the suggestion of conspiracy over something as horrendous as this, that he almost lost control.

  162. Had a similar experience with a Christian from Baghdad who attended our bible study, his bias towards Jews came through unexpectedly, and became an opportunity to share truth to dispel his ignorance (it’s a cultural issue).

  163. One day in the not too distant future, anyone who saw these things first hand will be dead. Then conspiracy theories will be able to gain ground more easily.

    I suspect my father-in-law’s dad took him to see it maybe because things were being dismantled. He may have known that it was important to have witnesses who in future years would personally remember, after his generation had passed away. Given that he believed people would deny it, due to the scale of the horrors being almost impossible to believe without seeing it, this makes sense to me.

  164. Teddy, yes, it does seem to be a cultural issue. I hope your visitor was able to take on board what the study group had to share with him. If he’d been brought up with that belief, it could be hard to shake it.

  165. I am wondering if the conspiracy re denying the Holocaust is telling in one aspect when we look back at early church history.

    It is less than 100 years since the end of WWII. Yet already, the movement to deny the holocaust happened is gaining ground, having started some years ago. Despite the fact that we still have living survivors and witnesses of what happened, some people are trying to put out their own convenient interpretation to change history.

    So the Catholic church (and I don’t hate them!! – this is just an observation) seems to say that the church fathers have authority, because of their proximity to the original early church of the first century. They say that not all traditions were recorded in scripture, since some practical things were just done, and weren’t regarded as being necessary to write down. Therefore they say we need to look at the practices of the early fathers to observe or confirm things accepted in the early church that were passed down via tradition rather than scripture. Obviously these things were rejected by the Reformation with the decision to rely upon scripture alone.

    Yet we see, in recent history, events like the Holocaust being denied or reinterpreted so that they are nothing like what occurred, even less than 100 years later, with all our advances in recording technology.

    If our society can do this so easily, how can anyone assume that the early church fathers have not also become vulnerable to a rewriting of traditions and practices to suit their cultural needs, even less than 100 years later. Even if the last eye witnesses of Christ, or Paul, were still alive, this can still have happened. Just as we see with the Holocaust history.

    So, while early church fathers can be worth reading and may have insights that we can benefit from, we can’t just assume that their take on early church practices and traditions is the same as Paul or the Apostles would have instigated or approved. The assumption is only necessary if we want to justify traditions of our own. Otherwise they are interesting, but still need to be tested in the light of scripture.

  166. Teddy, that Armenian example is tragic. I also had a friend whose parents came to Australia after escaping a Serbian concentration camp some decades ago. I heard their story from my friend at a time before those camps were admitted to have existed. Some years later, the political landscape changed and those camps were acknowledged. But until then – major denial. Despite living escapees, whose words were branded lies.

  167. The popular theory aboard the MV African Queen is it wasn’t the turks that were responsible for the Armenian genocide – it was them thare Calvinists

  168. @ Teddy “Specks mentioned outside lecturers coming in to teach at C3 Colleges, that a recent introduction?”

    I’ve looked into this further. They used too.

    For a time period the Creative Stream, (aka the School of Creative Arts, SCA), were doing degree programs. They had to get qualified lectures from outside of the SCA from universities and other bible colleges. They kept getting their lecturers from the bible college Alpha Crucis. Alpha Crucis used to be the Southern Cross College.

    I don’t know why some students got theology degrees from the creative arts college while they weren’t or aren’t offered in C3’s bible college.

    Does anyone know why this was the case?

  169. “Churchman, the holocaust was a hoax.”

    Then I guess I wasn’t standing in concentration camps. And I guess I didn’t see photos of corpses getting bulldozed into pits; millions of shoes and skulls stored up in rooms; German comics mocking Jews; reading the lives of Jews killed in such horrendous ways and having good friends flee for their lives from Germany.

    There is this little thing called ‘evidence’ Chirpy. Your outrageous claim is lacking it. Can you please give us links so you can show us what you believe or where you get your information from?

    That would make your views much more believable.

  170. I have Teddy.
    Before I even replied to this thread.

    I have been with friends and family for the last few days. I’ve had some wonderful late nights out.

  171. Hi specksandplanks

    You could read this website:

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm

    Nothing you said supports the idea that Jews were gassed.

    “There is this little thing called ‘evidence’ Chirpy. Your outrageous claim is lacking it.”

    Exactly. Show me the evidence that Jews were gassed. There is none. And how many died? Was it 6 million, 4 million or 1.75 million? What’s the latest figure?

    You guys talk about the eye-witness testimony of survivors. If 6 million Jews were gassed there wouldn’t be ‘survivors’ popping up left, right and centre like there are even today. If Hitler truly had an industrial-strength gassing program (which is what’s required to kill 6 million), there would be very few survivors.

  172. Ever started to write a comment, deleted, started again, repeated the process several times, but then just given up? ….Chirpy, what can I say? Maybe just that while you think you have “read extensively”, you haven’t.

    New Year’s resolution for me – stick to topics.

  173. My friends are proof that the holocaust was real. Not to mention the fact that I actually stood in an ex-concentration camp which was turned into a museum.

    Do yourself a favour Chirpy. Fly to Germany and do your own investigating. There is enough proof to say it was very real.

    Have you even read the book, ‘The Diary of Ann Frank’?

  174. specksandplanks, nothing you just said is proof of the holocaust.

    Just because there is a pile of skulls doesn’t mean that they were from gassing victims. Just because there was a pile of shoes doesn’t mean they were from gassing victims. Just because you stood in an ex-concentration camp doesn’t mean it was used to gas people.

    You guys used the word ‘conspiracy’ irresponsibly. The issue is not about whether something is a conspiracy or not. The issue is about whether something is true or not.

    You guys don’t know half of what is going on. Google is run by Jews. YouTube is owned by Google which is run by Jews. Do you think that these Jews want webpages denying the holocaust in their search results? Do you think that they want videos denying the holocaust on YouTube? They don’t and they actively purge them from both the Google search results and from YouTube search results.

  175. I’ve got bad news to tell you Chirpy. I am of a faith that was started by Jews! Be afraid. Be VERY afraid!

  176. You are a conspiracy nutter Chirpy.

    Be less worried about Google being run by Jews, and more about Jesus (a Jew) requires of you this day, and my you might develop a better perspective.

    In the fact the character traits you are displaying are very much like the children of Israel in the Exodus…and should know how God dealt with them!

  177. Churchman … God allowed the Holocaust, even if He did not inspire Hitler et al.

    So, in a very real sense, His promises to Israel as part of the Mosaic covenant (He promised that when Israel kept the covenant He would bless them more than any other Nation on Earth and when they did not He would curse them more than any other nation on Earth) were fulfilled both ways in the 1940’s.

    He is a promise keeper. He is righteous and completely reliable.

    It proves that God has not finished with the Jewish people and indeed that they are still His Chosen People. He will use them to bless the nations one way or another.

    Chirpy is completely nuts and for some reason wants to deny the worst atrocity in Human History.

    The Jews were killed in Death Camps. They used gas in Auschwitz. They used gas in Treblinka. In Treblinka, they got them off the trains and immediately into the “showers”. Any one who fell ill during the train journey or was already infirm were taken to the ‘medical tent’.

    These poor souls were led through to the open pit at the back of the tent and merely shot in the back of the head, allowed to fall in and covered with lime.

    There were no living quarters for prisoners. They dug up the mass graves after the place was leveled when the Nazis’ pulled out as the soviets were advancing.

    Anyone with a tattoo was skinned to make lampshades. Fat was turned into soap. Himmler had a special chair made out of Jewish bone.

    Don’t get me wrong. God did not author it, but He allowed it.

    Shalom

  178. @Specks – Im just wondering how you figure I am making comments behind FL’s & TVD’s back when I am banned from the Reflection Room?

  179. @ everyone – don’t hold your breath waiting for TVD’s answer to Heretic’s question about the Flood. He has “made the decision to not post here anymore”.

    Listening to an audio study on God’s sovereignty and particularly the book of Job and I’m thinking of TVD having to respond to this question…….

    Job 38
    1 The Lord spoke to Job out of a storm. He said,

    2 “Who do you think you are to disagree with my plans?
    You do not know what you are talking about.
    3 Get ready to stand up for yourself.
    I will ask you some questions.
    Then I want you to answer me.
    4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you know.
    5 Who measured it? I am sure you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
    6 What was it built on?
    Who laid its most important stone?
    7 When it happened, the morning stars sang together.
    All of the angels shouted with joy.
    8 “Who created the ocean?
    Who caused it to be born?

    etc etc etc….

  180. @Teddy – its funny how he was saying only a few short days ago at the Fruit Inspection Room how he “enjoyed a good stoush” – evidently, he doesnt enjoy the “getting hit” part!….He has just gone away to lick his wounds, hell be back sometime down the track….

    Talk about refusing to endure sound doctrine…..

  181. It’s ok Bull, it doesn’t hurt for long and then the sky seems bluer, the stars shine more brightly, puppies make you laugh and you can really enjoy a good glass of wine!

  182. I can’t enjoy wine teddy, I’m on a low carb diet!

    That means, of course, no chocolate! 😦

    Predestination vs freewill. Chocolate or not to chocolate, that is the question! Am I predestined to be fat or like Conan?

    Right … going to the gym to switch my brain off for a bit.

    Shalom!

  183. Well, there can be a season for everything, even Calvinism…

    Bull, congrats on losing all those pounds that you mentioned a while back. I think I’ve put some of them on, over Christmas and New Year. Very soon, it will be time for me also to get back to the gym and more sensible eating. 😦 Can’t put it off forever, unfortunately. Though I do enjoy feeling fit.

  184. I didn’t stuff my face over the Christmas period and went to the gym a lot during that time.

    I put on a pound. (I’m still in imperial measurements!)

    I’ve got 4 months to lose another stone … which will mean I will need new clothes!

    Well done on losing 12 kilos Greg. Just low carb or are you really going for it v-diet style?

  185. Well though I would weigh in regarding the ensuing Coronial Inquiry into the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira over at the Reflection Room….

    TVD says:
    “[in Acts 5:1-11] Do you see the words “God killed them” or “God ordered”, or “God told”, or in fact anything that implies that God was involved in their deaths? No.”

    Very very curious TVD? – in the very next sentence of the very same chapter Acts 5:12-16 we see that the apostles healed many – in fact some are healed merely by being under Peter’s shadow as he passed by. Would you kindly show us where the words “God healed them” or “God ordered”, or “God told”, or in fact anything that implies that God was involved in their healings?

    Based on your [typically dubious] reasoning – we must therefore attribute those miracles/healings to men namely Peter and not God???

    Again, apart from the usual butchering of scripture, we see TVD implying that the MEANS that God uses to summarily judge Ananias and Sapphira can be somehow twisted into something beyond itself to suit TVD’s sqeamishness about the Triune God of Scripture daring to invoke His righteous judgement upon sin….[well, we certainly couldn’t have that now!!…]

  186. Way off topic but ….. less than 100gm puts you in ketosis, and along with that, some people don’t cope with it well.
    e.g Dizziness, feelings of loss of strength etc.
    between 100 and 200 would mean you aren’t in ketosis, but you still have the benefits of the low carb which definitely helps you lose fat. (Also, having a higher carb day once every while helps reload glycogen which is good for you muscles.
    Just sayin …

    Because, once you go off the less than 100 and start eating those carbs which are really tasty, your body has changed in its treatment of carbs, so its easy to put it back on.

    ………..yeah, I’m a fitness freak!

  187. “Talk about refusing to endure sound doctrine…..”

    What a classic last line!

    ” and his nutty science fiction bible theories…”

    Ouch, there’s another one!

    Ironically enough, this place is good for a laugh sometimes.

    @Bull, good reply to what I posted.

  188. I’ve just can’t do low carb, because after a while I want to bing on carbs. Basically, if I’m denied a particular food, typically I want it. (Sounds like a typical reaction to law.) But I found an insulin resistance diet very effective for weight loss (lost 14 kilos), and also… weight watchers. And exercise.

    Heretic has lost more than 10 kilos in the last year cycling to work and back. Awesome.

  189. Why has TVD stopped posting on here? I was quite enjoying banter from him/ her (minus the odd totally out there comment.)

    I am guessing he might re-invent himself and come back as another alias…

    Church man – excuse my ignorance, but what has “ketosis” got to do with this thread or the Holocaust?

    Teddy, do you have a phd in theology? You manage most of the time to take on every wayward remark and question with great ease…

    😉

  190. I wonder if TVD has ever considered whose idea it was to kill the man Christ Jesus? (hint…Acts 2:23)

  191. Churchman … thanks!:)

    On the 100gm Carb thing, totally agree. For me the thing is that I have to be very careful ALL the time.

    When doing the training, I have a recovery drink straight after which is full of protein and quick acting carbs. Trouble is, that’s more than half the daily total.

    I have become addicted to peanuts too. (Low carbs see.)

    So now I am trying to wean myself off them as well as chocolate!

    Anyway, I have enough energy to last the whole day. I take in about 1500 calories on non-training days or 1900 calories on training days. Fine when doing 3 sessions a week but now I am up to 5 sessions a week.

    Now I am thinking about doubling up midweek and having 2 sessions. (No way I can keep as low as 100 carbs then though.)

    New thread time?

  192. 1500 calories is very low. 1900 is low but more sustainable.

    If you want, I can start a thread here for the carb discussion. Not sure if Specks would want that though, given how off the usual run of topics it is. I could also do it on reflection room though. What do you think?

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  194. This quote from above is worth repeating:-
    “You may find it interesting to note that the AOG (USA) addressed this issue in 2007 – they call it “perpetrating a fraud upon the church and the world”

  195. Re doctorates, I think most people who have academic qualifications know the difference between degrees and honorary degrees, and also that there is a huge difference in the ease of obtaining qualification from different institutions. So this issue is not a big deal.

  196. So you think someone like Aung San Suu Kyi shouldn’t be awarded honorary degrees in the light of the work they do?

    Aung San Suu Kyi received an honorary degree from the University of Oxford on 20 June 2012, along with seven leading figures from the worlds of science, the arts, intelligence and business, and in an exclusive video clip (above), she says: ‘I started getting emotional as I walked into the Sheldonian.’

    In a break with tradition, she was invited to address the ceremony at the end, and in her speech she said that ‘the most important thing for me about Oxford was not what I learnt there in terms of set texts and set books we had to read, but in terms of a respect for the best in human civilisation.’

    In the exclusive video above, fellow honorand John le Carré, novelist, says ‘it was magic’, and fellow honorand Baroness Eliza Manningham-Buller, former Director General of the Security Service, says ‘I don’t think there was a dry eye in the house.’

    The other seven honorands were Baroness Eliza Manningham-Buller, former Director General of the Security Service; author David Cornwell (aka John le Carré); the President of Harvard University, Professor Drew Faust; Sir Howard Stringer, Chairman of Sony Corporation; Professor Charles Taylor, Emeritus Professor of Philosophy at McGill University; Dr Henry Barnett, former President and Scientific Director of the Robarts Research Institute; and physicist Professor William Phillips of the National Institute of Standards and Technology.

    They received their awards at Encaenia, the University’s annual ceremony at which honorary degrees are conferred on distinguished men and women and benefactors are commemorated.

    http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2012/120620.html

    In your world no one would be honoured for their work because you personally don’t approve of them.

    The Burmese junta probably frowned on Aung San Suu Kyi’s award too.

  197. Steve, I never said there was anything wrong with an honorary doctorate.

    But again, most people familiar with academia understand the difference between doctorates and honorary doctorates, and also the great variations between educational institutions throughout the world.

    So, my conclusion was that this isn’t a big deal for me, and not something worth attacking Pringle over.

    But if you want to talk about specifics, there are huge variations in reasons why honorary degrees are conferred.

    I am not against people getting honorary degrees.

    (maybe you were answering someone else …?)

  198. The most telling thing of all is that Phil isn’t referred to as “Dr.” any more. He clearly realised that the game was up; that people had tumbled to the fact that he didn’t have a real PhD at all.

    All Christians have the gifts from God – both natural and spiritual – that they need to fulfil their destiny. It’s absolutely pathetic when one sees supposed “men of God” pretending to have qualifications that they haven’t earned. It provides a clear insight into their character, and the way that they view both God and others. Why the pretence when God knows everything, when the Most High understood from the beginning that the doctorate was fake?

    The truth is that Phil didn’t care about what God knew; he just wanted to put himself forward as being an intellectual, which he obviously is not. He wanted the cachet, and perhaps he thought it would help him to sell more “resources” and would give him credibility as a “preacher”. It calls to mind the words of Jesus “They love to receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces, and to be called ‘Rabbi.'”

    Touting a fake doctorate is a fraudulent act; it is deceptive behaviour. And it is entirely consistent with the teaching of false doctrines that come from deceiving spirits, because you cannot separate a man’s doctrine from his character: if the former is deficient, the latter will also be likewise.

  199. If Pringle was wrong for using the title Dr, you’d have to say the same for most of the big name pentecostal ministers who also seem to have Phds.

    Wait a minute – you probably would. 🙂

    I guess because I know people who couldn’t pronounce most of the theological terms Margot uses who have become doctors of divinity astonishingly quickly through online bible college courses – I just think it’s cute.

  200. More Pastors than you realize are sending in their sermon notes and bible studies to charismatic bible colleges and getting masters and Phds.

    With all the contributions over the years some of you have made here, I wouldn’t complain if Greg and Margot had Phd’s from Signposts Theological Seminary….:)

  201. I am a very simple Christian and after reading these posts felt to add this: Romans 14:10-13 Matthew 7:1-5 Luke 6:37. It seems people who criticize or run other Christians and ministers down, do so at their own peril! I believe we are all accountable to God, nothing more, nothing less. We all have to stand before Him. So really you don’t need to spend time pulling other ministries or individuals down. I’ll finish with this James 4:11-12 Do not critcize one another, my friends. If you criticize or judge another Christian, you criticize and judge the law. If you judge the Law then you are no longer one who obeys the law, but who judges it. God is the only lawgiver and judge. He alone can save and destroy. Who do you think you are, to judge someone else? I can’t believe you have a forum where you sit in judgement our Christian brothers and sisters and yet believe that Jesus died for our sins!………………..yes ours and our neighbours, your ex pastor, the person you have a falling out with, the murderer, the theif etc, etc.

  202. “I can’t believe you have a forum where you sit in judgement […]”

    It’s a good thing that there is a place where the error of those who mishandle Scripture and misrepresent God can be publicly pointed out.

    “It seems people who criticize or run other Christians and ministers down, do so at their own peril!”

    Anyone who falsely claims to have an academic qualification is a liar, and the Bible says that all liars will end up in the lake of fire.

    So the people who should be shaking in their boots and making haste to repent are not those posting here, but rather those who fraudulently hold themselves out as being ministers of the Gospel, when it is manifestly and incontrovertibly the case that they are nothing of the sort.

  203. Love how we are “judged” for doing exactly as the bible calls us to do!

    Is it ok to properly criticize the things the bible itself is critical of e.g. false teaching? There may be some who evaluate without a spirit of love when addressing one another but even Jesus had a way with words didn’t he?

    Just read Matthew 23 – snakes, hypocrites, brood of vipers etc

    We’re just a “band of bloggers”, enjoying the to and fro of discussion with some passion because we DO care what the bible says, as opposed to men’s various “interpretations” to suit the subject of their own “personal revelation”….

  204. “We’re just a “band of bloggers”, enjoying the to and fro of discussion with some passion because we DO care what the bible says […]”

    Quite so, Margot. Those who love God love the truth. Those two things *cannot* be separated, because God *is* truth. And in the same way that those who love God are zealous for Him, those who likewise love the truth are also zealous for that truth.

    The only people on whom such simple principles are lost are those who love neither God nor truth, but instead have set their affections on men, who are mere mortals (in just the same way as ancient Israel refused to submit to God, insisting instead that they should have an earthly king and so “be like the nations around them”, thereby committing a grievous sin).

  205. “affection on men you say…hmmm”

    Now, now Greg! Don’t you go hijacking this perfectly good thread 😉

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