Warn Australia! Warn New Zealand!

Lunatics Luniting
Rob DeLuca & Bentley

It concerns me greatly that we’ve had hits of this revival from America in places like Sydney, Melbourne and Queensland from these Lakeland Lunatics. This includes ministers such as Kira Mitchell’s who’s travelled the East Coast of Australia, Lakeland helper and support Al Cifelli and Lakelands worship leader Roy Fields. They’ve ministered in various places around Sydney or Australia.

May I remind people that it was because of Lakeland that we have the stupid Matt Ford (aka Prophet CluckerFucker (Urban Dictionary: Someone who either dates or is married to a crack head, can also be used as an insult)). (https://signposts02.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/fire-it-up-still-water-it-down/#comment-12966) Yes. He is the one that runs his NOW International Water it Down Fire it Up Ministries and studied at Lakelands supernatural school.

Anyways. Todd Bentley twittered:

“There making me work at office today LOL! Planning 2011 schedule. Auz and New Zealand Tour.”

From: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:T9u5Oubs490J:twitter.com/iamtoddbentley+%22There+making+me+work+at+office+today+LOL!+Planning+2011+schedule.+Auz+and+New+Zealand+Tour.%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

Todd Bentley has been involved in conferences in Queensland. This is from: http://www.etpv.org/2008/rahif.html.

Prophetic Word Spoken over Todd Bentley and the Nations

Rob DeLuca

March 8, 2008

This is exactly word for word what was spoken over Todd Bentley (from Fresh Fire Ministries) at the “Downpour Conference” on the Gold Coast in Australia, on March 8, 2008, by Pastor Rob DeLuca from New Zealand:

Todd, I saw a vision, and it’s concerning four revivals that are going to take to place in the world.

I saw a human boomerang flying out of Canada and it hit the nation of England, it hit the nation of Australia, it hit the nation of New Zealand, and it came spinning around.

I saw “Todd Bentley”–your name on the boomerang, but I knew that it was the Lord showing me that it was you, and I saw it fly back around and it came and hit America.

But, there was a bit more accuracy to it. It hit the state of Florida. The Lord is showing me that what took place in Pensacola, and also what took place in Lakeland with Rodney –you’re gonna bring something very strong to Florida.

I see something BIG in Florida. Then I saw the Lord turning you into a human nail, you know, like a spike nail. I saw the hand of God, I saw the Father hit this hammer and it hit you and it went straight into the ground of Florida.

I saw a scroll attached to this nail and it said, “The Kingdom of God has now come.” I really believe that what has taken place in the last 20 years in Florida, will be rekindled and rebirthed from your coming and going to Florida. A matter of fact, I will be even more bold to say that I believe that there is going to be a massive work where it’s so fruitful, that there will be seasons of time in Florida from Canada.

I saw it hit England, Australia, New Zealand, but I saw it going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. But I really believe that it’s not just going to touch thousands, but tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands. It’s going to be something that’s going to be heard around the world.

And Father, we thank You for it. I thank You for the revivals that are coming to the nations that have been spoken and seen.

I thank You Father for England. Lord, let the impartation of revival come with the new wave, with the greater glory to England.

I thank You for Australia. I thank You even for the impartation over these days, but Lord, let this be the beginning. Let this be the embryo stage of something that turns into a great giant of a revival in the nation of Australia.

I thank You for New Zealand. I thank You Father that people will come from all over the world and taste and see the impartation of the effects of revival that has been tasted even in the last week.

I thank You Father that it is for our generation and for the generation that’s coming. Lord, let history be made even in the now, we pray.

And I thank You for the anointing that’s on this man of God. I thank You Father that we honor the gift of God and we value the gift of God and in doing so Father, we declare blessing concerning the increase of his ministry, concerning the promotion of even being one that’s sent to take entire nations to influence entire nations.

Father, let America be influenced from what’s about to take place concerning the seasons that You’re preparing for Todd in Florida.

In Jesus name, what’s happened…I really believe what happened–it’s even going to hit CNN, it’s going to hit news broadcasts, it’s going to be talked about all over America. There’s something brewing so big and so strong that it’s going to waste the nation with God’s glory, definitely, in Jesus name.

 

Pastor Rob DeLuca
His Way Church in New Zealand

www.hiswaychurch.com
Email: admin@hiswaychurch.com

Groupsects also blogged about it:

http://groupsects.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/filthy-de-luca-aucklands-jewels-from-heaven-hoax/

Pastor Gullo also studied at Lakeland and also bought back ‘Revival’ to his church on Queensland.

___________________________________

Bentley has also been involved in Danny Nalliah’s ‘Catch the Liar Fire’ Ministry. This article is very insightful on Nalliah:

Gordon Moyes writes about it here: http://www.gordonmoyes.com/2009/02/20/cdps-shonky-prophet-condemned/

CDP’s shonky prophet condemned

I have written before about how readers should be wary of a Pentecostal pastor who sees himself as God’s prophet. His prophecies are inevitably wrong. But he has been frequently promoted and invited to CDP meetings by Rev Fred Nile and praised greatly for his anti Islamic statements. One obvious shonky prophecy is one you will remember when Danny wrote:

“The Lord told me to spend some personal time with Prime Minister John Howard and to prophetically prepare Federal Treasurer Peter Costello as the future Prime Minister of Australia. (I don’t know the exact timing, but I was obedient to the voice of God.) I thank the Lord that I just had a one to one meeting with Peter Costello on Thursday 9th August and John Howard on Friday 10th August. The Lord had given me a clear prophetic Word for both of them and I thank Him I was able to deliver His Word in addition to praying with both of these Federal Government Leaders. Unfortunately, I’m not at liberty to share the details of these private encounters, but I will boldly declare that Prime Minister John Howard will be re-elected in the November election (if the Body of Christ unites in prayer and action) and pass the leadership on to Peter Costello sometime after.”

At the time of revealing the above, I was castigated by a number of CDP writers and members of the CDP Management Committee, about not believing and supporting him. I printed some of these letters. I wrote two crossbench comments in 2007 entitled, “Anointing the next Prime Minister” and “So much for false prophecy”.

The CDP office released a number of Press Releases in November and December 2006 from Rev Fred Nile supporting Nalliah, and “Two Very Important Prophetic Revelations to Pastor Danny Nalliah” in July 2007. Danny Nalliah was invited to speak at Rev Nile’s rallies in November and December 2006. Now Danny Nalliah has blamed the Victorian Bushfires, and the resultant loss of life, on the Victorian Parliament’s passing of pro-Abortion Bills. This has led to widespread condemnation of Nalliah and also the Christian Church for holding such attitudes.

Philip L. Powell, of Christian Witness Ministries (CWM), an organization that keeps watch on cults, recently wrote http://www.christian-witness.org/blog:

“Very sadly the man and Pentecostal Church that we have many times issued warning about, Danny Nalliah and Catch-the-Fire (what’s in a name!) Ministries, have issued a public statement claiming that the fires are the result of the Judgment of God upon Victoria for adopting some pro-abortion legislation. Danny Nalliah claims that God showed him this would happen in a dream. Apart from his insensitivity and plain stupidity he, of course, overlooks what our Lord had to say about disasters during the time of His earthly sojourn:

LUKE 13: 1-5: “There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. “Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Our Lord’s call to “Repent” comes to us all, including Danny Nalliah who wrongly honoured a known paedophile despite several warnings, and falsely prophesied the return of the Howard Government and the appointment of Peter Costello as the Prime Minister following the last Australian election and later supported the false so called Healing Outpouring under the phoney Todd Bentley who is now disgraced for immorality.

Peter Costello has rebuked Danny Nalliah in The Australian national newspaper. The article dubbed Catch-the-Fire a “Christian cult” which is an apt description. In addition to The Australian article, there is a derisive statement from an Australian Radio host plus a number of aggressive comments that you can read if you click on this link.

Sadly, this will reflect on Christians in general. We support Pastor Bob Cotton who, as you will see from the above link, has distanced himself from CTFM and Danny Nalliah and recommended that people withhold payment to their cause. Long ago, CWM issued warnings that Danny Nalliah would do the Christian cause great harm with his grandstanding and his grandiose ideas about himself.

With typical opportunism Assemblies of God (AoG) – repackaged as Australian Christian Churches (ACC) – officials have distanced themselves from Danny Nalliah and Catch the Fire Ministries. In response to an inquiry, the ACC National Office issued an email stating that Danny Nalliah with his comments relating the bush fires to the abortion laws does not represent the ACC. They admit that Danny held a specialised ministries certificate with AoG but claim that he no longer holds that certificate. One can only wonder if he has been “disciplined” on account of the recent events.

For a more balanced and Biblical view on how God speaks to us today, please click on the link.

Rev The Hon. Dr Gordon Moyes, A.C., M.L.C.
Friday, 20th February, 2009, 10:01 am


226 thoughts on “Warn Australia! Warn New Zealand!

  1. One of the tests that BH and PP will undergo now is if they support Todd “I love having sex with interns” Bentley.

  2. Yes, I’ll be curious to see which churches take him. Maybe there is an itinerary out there somwhere.

  3. Yes, I’ll be curious to see which churches take him. Maybe there is an itinerary out there somwhere. Too soon, I guess.

  4. This well written article mentions that Tood Bentley spoke in a church in Melbourne:

    From: http://www.stormharvest.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=470&Itemid=67

    The Lakeland Outpouring and Todd Bentley

    By Robert I Holmes and Brian Medway
    We are whole hearted supporters of revival, and certainly the renewed focus on the miracle working aspects of the gospel. We love the documented testimonies being shared by Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton of http://www.ibethel.org in California. Fervour for God, and a desire to see revival are good and godly things. A renewed interest in ministering with angels, prophetic ministry and sharing the testimony of Christ in these last days is admirable too (Revelation 19:10).

    So how about Todd Bentley and the Lakeland Florida phenomena? More than a dozen Christian leaders have written to us recently, asking what our take on all this was, and whether we thought this was a genuine move of God. That we cannot tell you – for neither of us has been over to it. For reasons outlined below, we have no intention of going. What is being broadcast (also outlined in more detail below) in Lakeland leaves us rather disturbed.

    A close ministry associate hosted Todd Bentley in Melbourne, Australia, and can testify to the positive influence he had during events a few years ago. Indeed heaven touched earth. Another ministry associate in Nigeria testified to the genuine miracles and healings which took place there under his ministry. A friend in Carolina testified to Todd’s recent honour toward older prophetic men such as Paul Cain and Bob Jones. This is all good.

    By no means do we wish to encourage heresy hunting, or criticism of other sincere brethren. What do we gain by spending time and energy criticizing others? What do we gain spending time and energy publishing material denouncing others, let us seek Christ. Our reason for writing is to sound a warning, to refocus our attention on things that are true and things which really matter. The key phrase for us is that, “This is God, but it isn’t all God.”

    The gospel we preach

    It is from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks (Matthew 12:34) and it is what is inside a man that makes him unclean (Matthew 15:11). Our letters, emails, correspondence, prayer meetings and web sites portray to the world what is inside us. Our broadcasts, messages, podcasts and videos are an expression of our hearts. So if we want to know what a person’s passions are … simply listen to them.

    The apostle Paul issued a stern warning to us about men or angels who preach another gospel or that demand attention (Galatians 1:7). Though angels are part of our worship celebration, of healing the sick and even preaching the gospel we must be wary of worshipping them, honouring them overly and being puffed up with visions (Collosians 2:18). What then is the gospel being presented through Todd’s ministry and the Lakeland Revival? What are the first things being concentrated on in the preaching there?

    Angels are central
    http://www.god.tv Angels are the focus of this Florida outpouring (opening screen, banner). Todd, in his May 9th, 2008 address speaks of the release of financial angels. Todd claims to be walking with the angel who accompanied William Branham. He promotes an angel named Emma, said to be associated with the prophetic movement in Kansas City. Jesus intimates that angels to have assignments, but that they are without gender (Matthew 22:30). We find Todd’s miracle working and healing quite different to the word of knowledge based ministry of Branham.

    Third heaven focus
    http://www.extremeprophetic.com In an interview with Bob Jones, Todd Bentley and Patricia King, Todd focused in on the idea that, “Relationship with Jesus starts in the third heaven” and that we “have experiences in the supernatural dimension, to release the glory”… (WSTK-ITV broadcast). We find it difficult to substantiate either of these statements in the gospels.

    Appeals for money
    http://www.lakelandrevival.tv The first thing presenting itself at both the main web sites is a request for money to keep the meetings going in the large auditorium (www.ignitedchurch.com). Evidently the finances are not sustaining the revival. For this to happen so early on seems to indicate an incorrect focus, or a reliance on human technique.

    Focus on anointing
    http://www.hubpages.com/hub/Lakeland-revival “One of the ten anointings that was going to manifest is the fire anointing!!!” (April 27th, 2008). There’s the prophetic anointing, the healing anointing, the prayer anointing, and our favourite – the anointing to cancel debt (May 9th 2008). It is once again very difficult to substantiate such anointings from the Word of God.

    Transferable impartation
    http://www.freshfire.ca the oft repeated phrase is “Come and Get Some” – some what? Stroll around the web site and it’s all about Todd, and all about supernatural impartation. Great, but what about Jesus Christ? How about the things He cares about – the lost, the lame, the poor, the widow and the orphan?

    Heavy self promotion
    http://www.charismamag.com/news Why do we have to promote, advertise and request for a revival? When did revivalists have to call their own meetings “a healing outpouring” and “the greatest revival in history”? This trend of self promotion is disturbing. http://www.ustream.tv/channel/great-florida-healing-revival

    The use of and promotion of violence
    Whilst we recognise that at times God uses unconventional means to heal (such as spitting in the dirt) or raise the dead (like lieing on the body of a boy), the use of violence in promoting the gospel seems to go right against the heart of who Christ is. Over several meetings Todd laid out the use of violence in his ministry including kicking a lady in the face, spear tackling a man, smashing a cripples legs, and chocking a man to bring deliverance.

    Questions

    1. Why are we calling this a revival?
    The largest churches in the UK (such as Kensington International) draw more people every week than are turning up to Lakeland. The largest church in Nigeria (Faith Temple) draws three times that number! These churches win as many people to Christ each week as are being won at Lakeland. We do not call them revival because such a term implies that communities are being affected, towns are being changed, nations are being shaken. Our team has searched earnestly for credible evaluations of how many have been saved in Lakeland, Florida. We could not find any. There are estimates of how many people show up, and how many are falling down – but not of salvations?

    2. Why have all the recent “revivals” which cause tourism take place in America?
    Toronto, Smithton, Pensacola, Lakeland… thousands travelling to see it. In the last week of June, 2008 there was a baptism of 10,000 new converts, gathered in from hundreds of COC churches in Northern India (where it is illegal to change religion). Two weeks after that, there was the confirmation of 8,000 new converts in a Pentecostal assembly in Uganda. It is estimated that 1,000 Iraqis are being converted a week now from Islam. Why don’t we fly to those places – whose statistics are far more impressive than Lakeland?(For more information on revival tourism to those places watch this space!)

    3. What has our Christianity become about?
    The gospel of Jesus Christ is not primarily about angels, third heaven revelations, impartations and transferable blessings. Jesus did not primarily die to make us rich, or cancel debt we have accrued through the self focused spending we engage in here in the West. What happened to the simplicity of the gospel – repent, believe and be baptized?

    We do not think the meetings in Lakeland will do much to make churches around the world look and act more like Jesus. The need for holy love, perfect oneness, release of the saints to ministry and completion of the great commission is not enflamed by enamel teeth or even miraculous healings. These tasks will remain long after Lakeland has become a set of archives in the YouTube history. Before you spend thousands of dollars going there, take a trip to the empty buildings at Pensacola, edifaces with a high debt and few people. Or perhaps go to Toronto and see a city that has successfully resisted God’s presence in her midst these last twelve years.

    Never the less, when asked about people who worked miracles in the name of Jesus, but who may be off centre, or walking a different path from Himself, Christ answered, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in my name can soon afterward speak evil of me. For He who is not against us is for us.” (Mark 9:39,40 NKJV).

  5. That was an interesting article, Specks. They seemed quite careful in their approach. This was interesting:

    “2. Why have all the recent “revivals” which cause tourism take place in America?
    Toronto, Smithton, Pensacola, Lakeland… thousands travelling to see it. In the last week of June, 2008 there was a baptism of 10,000 new converts, gathered in from hundreds of COC churches in Northern India (where it is illegal to change religion). Two weeks after that, there was the confirmation of 8,000 new converts in a Pentecostal assembly in Uganda. It is estimated that 1,000 Iraqis are being converted a week now from Islam. Why don’t we fly to those places – whose statistics are far more impressive than Lakeland?(For more information on revival tourism to those places watch this space!)”

    Why don’t we fly to those places indeed! Some of them would be way too scary to go to unless we were pretty sure God was the one sending us over there.

    Also the points re the appeal for finances – correct me if I’m wrong, but past great revivals appeared to just happen – people in the streets etc greatly affected. Were they as dependent upon finances as these current ones in the US?

  6. I had a hunch it was Catch the Fire Ministry that allowed Bentley to minister. It looks as though it is.

    http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/events-ministries-2/revival-in-hallam-2009/

    Weekly Schedule of CTFM Services in Melbourne
    Weekly Schedule for 2010

    Catch the Fire Ministries weekly services in Melbourne are held each Sunday at 9:30am and 6:30pm at Catch the Fire Ministries Apostolic Centre at 23 Melverton Drive in Hallam. Melway ref 96 G 2

    The Sunday morning and evening services will be fully committed to bringing people into a deeper more intimate walk with the Father in heaven through anointed worship and the prophetic ministry of the Word of God. I’m sure you will not feel the time pass as we spend hours in the awesome manifest presence of God!

    Our weekly Friday night service at 7:30pm will focus more on prayer and prophetic intercession for our nation.

    Every first Friday of the month is the Rise Up Australia prayer meeting which aims at uniting the Body of Christ across Melbourne from many churches and denominations to pray for our nation’s transformation, followed by an all night prayer meeting at the same address as above!

    Every Saturday at 5pm is our Youth service

    We’re prayerfully trusting the Father in Heaven for a mighty outpouring of His Revival Glory and Manifest Presence in Melbourne, throughout Victoria, wider Australia, and across all of the Great South Land of the Holy Spirit!

    It’s time for Miracles! Don’t miss this hour of Visitation and Habitation!

  7. Yep! It was Nalliah from ‘Catch The Liar Fire’ ministries. (Emphasis mine below.) This is a fantastic and very insightful article. I encourage you to read it.

    Gordon Moyes writes about it here: http://www.gordonmoyes.com/2009/02/20/cdps-shonky-prophet-condemned/

    CDP’s shonky prophet condemned

    I have written before about how readers should be wary of a Pentecostal pastor who sees himself as God’s prophet. His prophecies are inevitably wrong. But he has been frequently promoted and invited to CDP meetings by Rev Fred Nile and praised greatly for his anti Islamic statements. One obvious shonky prophecy is one you will remember when Danny wrote:

    “The Lord told me to spend some personal time with Prime Minister John Howard and to prophetically prepare Federal Treasurer Peter Costello as the future Prime Minister of Australia. (I don’t know the exact timing, but I was obedient to the voice of God.) I thank the Lord that I just had a one to one meeting with Peter Costello on Thursday 9th August and John Howard on Friday 10th August. The Lord had given me a clear prophetic Word for both of them and I thank Him I was able to deliver His Word in addition to praying with both of these Federal Government Leaders. Unfortunately, I’m not at liberty to share the details of these private encounters, but I will boldly declare that Prime Minister John Howard will be re-elected in the November election (if the Body of Christ unites in prayer and action) and pass the leadership on to Peter Costello sometime after.”

    At the time of revealing the above, I was castigated by a number of CDP writers and members of the CDP Management Committee, about not believing and supporting him. I printed some of these letters. I wrote two crossbench comments in 2007 entitled, “Anointing the next Prime Minister” and “So much for false prophecy”.

    The CDP office released a number of Press Releases in November and December 2006 from Rev Fred Nile supporting Nalliah, and “Two Very Important Prophetic Revelations to Pastor Danny Nalliah” in July 2007. Danny Nalliah was invited to speak at Rev Nile’s rallies in November and December 2006. Now Danny Nalliah has blamed the Victorian Bushfires, and the resultant loss of life, on the Victorian Parliament’s passing of pro-Abortion Bills. This has led to widespread condemnation of Nalliah and also the Christian Church for holding such attitudes.

    Philip L. Powell, of Christian Witness Ministries (CWM), an organization that keeps watch on cults, recently wrote http://www.christian-witness.org/blog:

    “Very sadly the man and Pentecostal Church that we have many times issued warning about, Danny Nalliah and Catch-the-Fire (what’s in a name!) Ministries, have issued a public statement claiming that the fires are the result of the Judgment of God upon Victoria for adopting some pro-abortion legislation. Danny Nalliah claims that God showed him this would happen in a dream. Apart from his insensitivity and plain stupidity he, of course, overlooks what our Lord had to say about disasters during the time of His earthly sojourn:

    LUKE 13: 1-5: “There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. “Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

    Our Lord’s call to “Repent” comes to us all, including Danny Nalliah who wrongly honoured a known paedophile despite several warnings, and falsely prophesied the return of the Howard Government and the appointment of Peter Costello as the Prime Minister following the last Australian election and later supported the false so called Healing Outpouring under the phoney Todd Bentley who is now disgraced for immorality.

    Peter Costello has rebuked Danny Nalliah in The Australian national newspaper. The article dubbed Catch-the-Fire a “Christian cult” which is an apt description. In addition to The Australian article, there is a derisive statement from an Australian Radio host plus a number of aggressive comments that you can read if you click on this link.

    Sadly, this will reflect on Christians in general. We support Pastor Bob Cotton who, as you will see from the above link, has distanced himself from CTFM and Danny Nalliah and recommended that people withhold payment to their cause. Long ago, CWM issued warnings that Danny Nalliah would do the Christian cause great harm with his grandstanding and his grandiose ideas about himself.

    With typical opportunism Assemblies of God (AoG) – repackaged as Australian Christian Churches (ACC) – officials have distanced themselves from Danny Nalliah and Catch the Fire Ministries. In response to an inquiry, the ACC National Office issued an email stating that Danny Nalliah with his comments relating the bush fires to the abortion laws does not represent the ACC. They admit that Danny held a specialised ministries certificate with AoG but claim that he no longer holds that certificate. One can only wonder if he has been “disciplined” on account of the recent events.

    For a more balanced and Biblical view on how God speaks to us today, please click on the link.

    Rev The Hon. Dr Gordon Moyes, A.C., M.L.C.
    Friday, 20th February, 2009, 10:01 am

  8. We can probably say that Bentley went to Pastor Gullo’s church after Pastor Gullo bought ‘revival’ to the Sunshine Coast. This excerpt is from: http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2008/07/20/popular-preacher-claims-heal-sick/

    Sunshine Coast healings
    A Sunshine Coast pastor who has returned from ‘revival’ meetings in Florida says his church is experiencing healings and a spiritual awakening as hundreds come expecting something to happen each Sunday.

    But Suncoast Christian Centre senior pastor Chas Gullo says he’s not interested in chasing angels or hero worship, saying it is God who is moving, not Canadian preacher Todd Bentley.

    Pastor Gullo was preaching at a church in Florida about six weeks ago when he heard about the ‘Florida Outpouring’ and decided to check it out for himself.

    He said in many ways the meetings were similar to other charismatic meetings but there was a far greater spiritual hunger – and expectancy from those attending.

    He said since returning to his Woombye church there had people healed of back pain and other ailments – but not as they were being prayed for by him – but rather as they praised God during the service.

    “God is doing it sovereignly,’’ Pastor Gullo said.

    He said while there were not deaf people hearing or the blind seeing, there were those with sickness and injuries who were testifying they had been healed during the service.

    Pastor Gullo said there had also been remarkable restorations of broken marriages and family relationships.

    He said the beauty of what was happening at Woombye was that it was not the result of one man’s ministry but just a greater expectation by the whole congregation.

    “These people are believing for a move of God from the first note (of the song service),’’ he said.

  9. Bull: “One of the tests that BH and PP will undergo now is if they support Todd “I love having sex with interns” Bentley.”

    Well Phil Pringle has invited Bill Johnson to speak at his 2011 Presence Conference. I have no doubt that Hillsong and C3 are being groomed by NAR. C3 will be first. I have no question about that since Pringle quotes Peter Wagner in his book, ‘You The Leader’. The book is also endorsed by Wagner.

    Their origins are from Latter Rain. Frank Houston was influenced by Latter Rain teachings from New Zealand. I was shocked when I found this out. I found some interesting resources which I’ll need to find again that say this.

    It’s only a matter of time before Hillsong and C3 bow to the NAR Kingdom of this world. 😦

  10. “It’s only a matter of time before Hillsong and C3 bow to the NAR Kingdom of this world.” – Specks

    I don’t think they will actually. They might invite big name speakers, but both movements enjoy their autonomy and individual callings. To join NAR could mean diminishing the ultimate authority of BH and PP, and risking association with some loose cannons. So I am not sure they’d have much to gain by joining it, considering the strength of their existing movements.

    Bill Johnson will be a very popular speaker. As I’ve said before, I’ve seen some good stuff coming out of his church in the family ministries area. I don’t agree with NAR or dominionism though.

  11. Hillsong will take longer to be influenced. C3 on the other hand could do with the financial support and apostollic and leadership backing of the NAR.

  12. C3 churches are all autonomous, but PP is their apostle. I don’t think he will want his senior apostleship replaced by that of others, by formal alliance, though inviting them as speakers is a different matter. Because the individual churches are autonomous though, it’s quite possible that we could see them also inviting NAR speakers or allying themselves to other movements at the same time, if it does not conflict with their C3 commitment.

    My ex-C3 pastor wasn’t too keen on some of the NAR people, when people in the church were. That might have been because it threatened membership in some way – fear that they would divert to another church that drew on that movement more strongly. There are other churches in Sydney that are far more overtly interested in NAR, and some are more extreme in a Pentecostal sense than C3OF, it appears to me. These churches are not part of the big Hillsong or C3 movements. Still, they are probably also not large enough to cope with the size of a gathering that a prominent NAR speaker might bring.

  13. I’m pretty sure that the point of the New Apostolic Reformation is to acknowledge Apostolic authority and to empower and equip them. If Pringle was recognised by Wagner as an endtimes Apostolic authority, then what’s stopping Pringle obtaining the benefits of joining the NAR for support and networking?

    These movements only seek to ‘bless’ and to ‘equip’. If I was in Pringle’s shoes, I think I’d be tempted to join if I was going through the swamp Pringle’s going through.

    I know which churches your talking about. Churches like the Sydney House of Worship.

  14. I don’t necessarily even know the names of the churches I’m talking about! Have just heard via the grapevine.

    I’m sure Pringle _could_ join the NAR. One of its purposes at his level is networking. Since the apostles can’t relate to their own congregations fully (that would be relating ‘down’, not sideways or up) they have this organisation for fellowship. Kind of does away with the need for accountability to local eldership.

    It’s just that its my _opinion_ that PP wouldn’t want to do this. In my view, he is very independent. He has chosen Yonggi Cho for his mentor. A pastor from a different country that really must have very limited contact with PP. PP came out and was his own man right from the very beginning, establishing C3. At no stage has he ever appeared to want to join with anyone at a sideways or lesser level in an official capacity. He gives oversight to others, has fellowship with his own inner circle to some kind of degree, and probably also has some kind of fellowship with people on the speaking circuit. So I can’t see why he would feel the need to join another association, or become part of a ‘different move of God’. I think PP would see C3 as a move of God in its own right, quite separate from the NAR, though not unrelated in some of its theology. So I can’t see why he would break with his pattern of independence by joining himself or C3 to something else.

    This is only my speculative view. Summed up – PP has demonstrated a pattern of behaviour, and why would he change it now? There would seem to be no benefit to him that he doesn’t already have. He is already a sought after speaker.

  15. Also – financially – there may be some need to give financially to the NAR organisation if someone becomes a member. Apostles are approved to gather tithes. I am not sure whether those that do (not all do) then pass some component on to the NAR group to assist with its own expenses.

  16. Looking at it from the UK, I get the feeling that BH and PP have done very well on their own and would be unlikely to come under the NAR in a formal way.

    However they will want to draw big name speakers in order to fleece the flock get people to come to the conferences and throw their life savings into buckets gain valuable insights in how to cancel their newly acquired debts how to live godly lives.

    I have heard good things about Bill Johnson but he allowed Rick Joiner to get Todd a quicky remarriage and back into ‘ministry’ as if Todd was as pure as the driven snow. Todd is a snake.

    I’m just glad he ain’t coming to the UK … yet.

    Shalom.

  17. People put too much emphasis on the NAR, it is really a bit of a joke in wider society and the wider church. Its just a group of wannabes trying to look bigger and more important than they really are.

    When you have a look at who is actually in it, the organisation they have is Peter Wagner’s “International Coalition of Apostles” http://www.coalitionofapostles.com . Their membership page gives me the impression they will accept anyone who will pay the fee :

    Since apostles minister in several different ways, ICA is open to “vertical apostles” (including ecclesiastical, functional, congregational, and team-member vertical apostles), to “horizontal apostles” (including convening, ambassadorial, mobilizing, and territorial horizontal apostles), and to different kinds of “workplace apostles.”

    It costs $450 per year but there are discounts available, and it can be paid in two installments. They dont seem to publish the names of their member apostles any more, but when they did it was such a motley crew of nobodies, small-businessmen and title-seekers that you could easily see it had no credibility at all.

    No-one with any public or church profile at all would risk joining it.

  18. Except for the bit where they gave the impression that John Crowder was the equivalent to what happens in Bill Johnson’s church. There’s a big difference from filming a woman who is a bit wobbly after a service but still walking around minding her own business, except for being accosted by the camera man, and Crowder’s ‘tokin the ghost’ crowd. Makes me think the camera man couldn’t find anything sensational enough for his liking, so had to stick in the unconnected Crowder stuff. Just like Today Tonight journalism.

  19. I’m amazed how many people don’t know about the NAR in Australia. You start seeing the influences when you start checking out different churches and bible study groups.

    Many smaller churches I’ve seen have Wagner’s books.

    People who do know about it do find it laughable, but those who don’t, don’t realise what they’re being groomed into.

  20. Basil333…”Signs and wonders… are all side-show clownish diversions from true Christianity’

    Paul…”Therefore I have reason to glory in Christ Jesus in the things which pertain to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient– in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.”

    Hebrews author…”Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?”

    Believers…”So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs.”

    Basil33 is just another cessationist plying his unscriptural wares on an unsuspecting public.

    God is the author of true signs and wonders, which remain a feature of our Christian witness, giving evidence that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. The devil will produce signs and wonders, yes, but they are fake, called ‘lying’ signs and wonders – fabrications of the real. God has not ended the real.

    His ‘video’ is a conglomeration of unrelated clips hastily put together to deceive.

    Basil333…”Moses was the first prophet.”

    Adam…”A man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall be one flesh.”

    Not defending anyone here. Basil333 may have a point with some of the antics and doctrine he attempts to ‘expose’, but the way he goes about it is crude and deceptive. Test EVERY spirit!

  21. @Newsong

    “God is the author of true signs and wonders, which remain a feature of our Christian witness, giving evidence that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.”

    With respect I consider that you are doing the old “Judas Hanged Himself…Go And Do Likewise” context shoehorning there – Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever –

    You cannot simply conflate a divinely inspired statement referring to God’s immutable “character” as evidence for the continuity of the gifts where context does not allow for such a comparison

    Another example:

    Galatians 3:28 …… there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    SEE WOMEN CAN BE PASTOR/TEACHERS!!!!

    (Uhh – no this a passage of soteriological context that no person has any preference or advantage in the kingdom of God)

  22. @Mosco… so you are saying the cessationist Basil333 is correct? Do have an exact scripture moment when God decided to forgo signs and wonders, and the corresponding prophecy which revealed this?

    ‘Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.’ stands as a sentence and a statement in itself contextually. He, Messianically, is the same, yesterday, today and forever. Christ means Messiah. Jesus reminded John’s servant of the signs of the Messiah in Matthew 11:1-6.

    The scripture reference to Jesus’ eternal consistency as Messiah is contained in Hebrews 13:8.

    Hebrews 13
    7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
    8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
    9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

    If you want to refer the contextual setting to the preceding verse, he is saying we are to remember those who have been graced with the rule over us, if the succeeding verse, we are subsequently warned not to be carried away with strange doctrines. The implication is that we need to be guarded by divinely appointed leadership from false teaching, and it is based on the truth that Jesus Christ is the constant we can rely on for truth.

    Since part, though not all, obviously, of Jesus’ ministry included signs and wonders, we can safely state that the ministry he engaged in when walking the earth remains today. This is confirmed by his own words to his disciples.

    “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.”

    It is further confirmed when Jesus promises we will receive the Spirit in our lives, One exactly like Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and forever. With the Spirit comes His graces, manifestations and fruit. Again, this includes the healing and miracles ministry of the Spirit, as he wills.

  23. Cessasionism is adding to scripture.

    All ‘miracles’ are not from God – all of us here agree at least on that. But some of us will know people personally who have had miracles happen in their lives, and some of us have in our own lives. Not that I’d expect these things to convince anyone just by hearsay, and neither should they. There is nothing to say that God does not do miracles sometimes today though, even if we don’t believe we can order them to happen whenever we want them to. He is sovereign and can for his purposes – whether it is out of compassion or for evangelistic purposes – do miracles. Of course there is also providence.

  24. Teddy, I am interested in any genuine linking of Bill Johnson to Crowder (whom I wouldn’t touch with a barge pole, unless God came and told me to personally). I do see what you mean in that list of friends. That would imply endorsement to me.

    I think its possible though that as we’ve all experienced, there are good people in these churches despite some of the very dodgy headline preachers. These good people may account for some of the good we hear of in their own ministry areas. I also get the impression that Bethel is not a church that pushes people into submission. The submission doctrines (a la John Bevere) lead to a particularly damaging church environment, I think. Avoiding that kind of thing, and prioritising love, even where other things are wrong, could still leave fertile ground for good ministry areas.

    Some of the bad stuff I’ve heard of coming out of C3OF seems strongly related to an abuse of hierarchical relationships. That can happen in any church, too, regardless of other doctrinal stances, if they head down a more authoritarian road. Sometimes, it may be an outworking of a particularly unhealthy mix of personalities at the top. They are in a sense, unredeemed in that aspect of their nature.

  25. @Newsong –

    “‘Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.’ stands as a sentence and a statement in itself contextually. He, Messianically, is the same, yesterday, today and forever. Christ means Messiah. Jesus reminded John’s servant of the signs of the Messiah in Matthew 11:1-6.”

    yeah but Jesus is the second person of the Trinity right? i.e. he is God right?

  26. He is God. He is the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form. He is the Word, who is God, made flesh, who descended, humbling himself as a man, obedient unto death, was buried, who arose, was seen by witnesses, and ascended to the right hand of glory, sending the Spirit to indwell those who believe on him.

    ‘Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.’

  27. I dont think you can make an air tight case for cessation but the great missionary Apostles (capital “A” – not some knob that assumes the title today), Paul and Peter, had passed away by A. D. 68, and apparently only John was left in extreme old age until the last decade of the first century.

    So you had John’s own pupil Polycarp, Ignatius, Papias, Clement, Hermas, Leucius, Justin and Irenæus and their contemporaries – all the first half of the second century – if there were men who might have laid firm hold upon the biblical principle which governed the distribution of the miraculous gifts it would be these – yet none allude to normative miracle working as a thing which existed in their day……

    Where are the legs growing back, the dead raised (not just the random stereotypical “kenyan guy” (why is it always kenyans and nigerians BTW??) who was raised from the dead at his tribal funeral procession) – we really have no sufficient reason to believe, upon the authority of the primitive fathers, that any such powers were continued to the church, after the days of the Apostles….. and thus not worth getting ones pentecostal undies in a knot!!!

  28. @ 5.Spurgeon…You make the mistake of according miracles and healings to Jesus’ personally appointed Apostles alone. Philip was not an Apostle, yet here’s his account:

    ‘Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. And there was great joy in that city.’

    You fundamentally forget that Jesus said it would be believers who preached the gospel who would see the signs as the Holy Spirit worked with them. Signs were not just accorded to Apostles, but to all believers who actually believe.

    This has never ended. Jesus said those who were baptised with the Holy Spirit of Promise would be witnesses endued with power form on high, giving evidence of the real presence of God in the earth, and the continued works of Christ.

    The manifestations of the Spirit are distributed severally to every man as the Spirit wills and directs. He is God. He does n’t change. The manifestations and graces are his to give. he distributes gifts f healings, and working of miracles amongst other manifestations of his Presence. As long as the Spirit never ends, his manifestation – showing forth – will never end.

    And the more excellent way, or motive and motivation for the operations, ministry, and distribution of the manifestations is always love, which is not a gift or manifestation, but the very being, nature and character of God revealed through his saints.

    5.Spurgeon says: ‘I dont think you can make an air tight case for cessation from scripture’.

    That’s because there is no case in scripture. The only evidence we have form scripture is that Jesus Christ is indeed the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that he still heals today through His Spirit in the earth, who is God with us today.

    “I AM, I change not!” Therefore, He is still Jehovah Rapha, The Lord Our Healer.

    So, on this basis of his unchanging nature, it is God who heals and delivers people through the saints, not the saints themselves. It is his power, and his leading. It is his ministry through the Body. Therefore it will not end as long as the Holy Spirit is at work in the Church, through the Church, in His name.

  29. “Where are the legs growing back, the dead raised (not just the random stereotypical “kenyan guy” (why is it always kenyans and nigerians BTW??) ”

    Actually dozens supposedly were raised through Todd Bentley’s ministry! Also, it’s not just Kenyans and Nigerians – it’s Kenyan’s, Nigerians and Indians – and bible-belt watchers of GodTV…

    Seriously, even in the book of Acts which spanned years, I don’t think there was a whole lot of dead-raising.

  30. Polycarp, Ignatius, Papias, Clement, Hermas, Leucius, Justin and Irenæus and their contemporaries must have been Presbyterians I guess….

    Damn -if only there was a Phillius-Pringleius in the first half of the second centry we would have argument from history that brains can miraculously grow back after a Botox and a Maurice Meade shampoo and blowdry….

    You cannot mix Hebrews 13:8 into a goofy “God changeth not” pentecostal porridge and come out with third wave pentecostal signs and wonders (minus the gospel) Christianity….

    ITS JUTHT NONTHENTH OKKAAAY!!!

  31. I thought my dog was a Reformed Baptist like me until yesterday when I pointed my finger at him and commanded, “Heel!” – and then jumped up on a chair, placed one paw on the my forehead and began to howl…..

  32. Yeah, well God used a donkey to speak to Balaam!

    I can so use Hebrews 13:8 to demonstrate that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, simply because that’s exactly what it says, and that’s exactly what to means. You can’t theologically bend this to make it mean something unrelated to who Jesus Christ was and what he did yesterday, when he walked the earth.

    He didn’t walk the earth as Jesus until he was born of the virgin. Before this he was the Word. Then, when Mary gave birth, he was the Word made flesh, named Jesus, and called the Christ, as confirmed by the Father, and ratified by the Holy Spirit, when he was baptised by John. So that is the beginning of the yesterday of Jesus Christ.

    His mother mary, at the wedding of Cana, attempted to make him perform his first known miracle, which he eventually did, turning water into wine, but he chastised her, saying, Woman, it is not yet my time, giving us a time for the yesterday of his miracles, healing and deliverance ministry.

    Healings and miracles are no more ‘third wave’ Pentecostal than they are ‘tenth phase’ Baptist or ‘fourth rate’ Presbyterian. They are acts of God! If Jesus healed yesterday, he will heal today, and he will heal tomorrow, should he tarry.

    This, I’ll grant, is not the total extent of the meaning of that phrase, but it sure as God includes all and anything Jesus was and did when he walked the earth as the Messiah. Hebrews didn’t just call him the Word, or even the Son. He called him Jesus Christ.

    Jesus is the Holy One of god, the Messiah, who walked the earth, and who performed works of healing, deliverance and miracles.

    One time, when they doubted his deity, he just said to them, OK, you don’t believe me for the words I speak, well then believe me for the work’s sake! What works were these? The very clear and present works of healing deliverance and miracles.

    I don’t know why you are spending so much time and effort attempting to deny what is staring you in the face in the Word of God.

  33. By the way, I can’t help it if Polycarp, Ignatius, Papias, Clement, Hermas, Leucius, Justin and Irenæus didn’t see miracles. They are not the canon. They are theologians who succeeded the Apostles of Christ. Are we to believe them or the words of Christ? Shod we listen to them or Paul, John, James and Peter?

    In fact, if we are not seeing the miracles of Jesus today, then it can only be because we are falling short of his instructions for the Church in some way.

    It cannot be God who is at fault with this. We may have to revise some of our theology, and base it on what Christ said in the gospels and in Revelation, and on what the Holy Spirit revealed through the writers of the Epistles.

    Using the succeeding patriarchs as a foil for failure isn’t good enough.

  34. Still there are many out there bringing the gospel into disrepute, or serious doubt, because of their lack of scruples about claiming miracles. Even if they aren’t consciously acting as charlatans (some may be, but I think others are sincere), there is a cognitive dissonance when it comes to accepting a miracle as fact.

    Here is an article from November’s Charisma magazine where a Pentecostal pastor from a megachurch laments the extremes that bring the whole movement into disrepute:

    http://strang.imirus.com/Mpowered/imirus.jsp?volume=str10&issue=12&page=27

    He describes his own healing in response to a simple prayer by his parents while they were all travelling in a car. No showmanship. Then on page 28, he describes the claimed ‘healing’ of his friend on stage at a crusade – who was not healed, and the seeking of gimicky miracles. He describes this as ‘being sold spiritual snake oil’.

  35. Miracles do happen. They can both be done by God or the enemy. How you can generally tell if they are genuine miracles of God or by the enemy, is by discerning the miracle’s source of power.

    If they focus on Jesus and his healing, saving power or make people praise and love Jesus more, then it’s genuine. If it exalts any other name, teaching, gospel, agenda, spirit, ministry or crusade, then it should be scrutinised.

    I think it is right that Todd Bentley is scrutinized and rejected. His focus has not continually been on Jesus. Bentley and his angels were getting the glory from his revival.

    I hope he is denied to minister in the states of Australia. Maybe some ministers learnt their lesson from last time. I’ll be making sure I let people know where Bentley ministers when he comes.

  36. True to a point Specks.

    Recall what is said by Christ to those who claim to know him at the conclusion of the age:

    Matthew 7:22 – Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    In Christ’s name, many 1000’s and tens of 1000’s of people do things all over the world, including miracles etc – but – it does not equate to being seen as righteous in his eyes.

  37. I am talking about discerning if miracles are genuine or not when evident in meetings.

    We can argue if miracles are right or wrong til we pass out in our own words.

    People who believe miracles are active in the church today through the Spirit of God, are who I am talking about here. If you and I believe in miracles and we were currently in a church meeting where they are taking place, my above comment is applicable to those circumstances.

    Maybe Todd Bentley will be one of those people who will be saying 7:22 to Jesus. The point is, that specific scripture doesn’t affect the present. That is unless it comes to mind in the meeting and you think God is warning you about the miracles. He may be highlighting that scripture to you so you may be on your guard or to encourage you to warn others.

  38. One of the reasons Jesus will reject people is that will have taken scripture out of context and used it for their own means to justify their theological or doctrinal position, and then claimed authenticity of ministry.

    The fuller version of the above quote states:

    Matthew 7:15-27
    “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

    “Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

    The main criteria here is to be doing the Word of Jesus. Not just hearing, or knowing, or even declaring the Word, but actually doing it.

    Now if Jesus, by the Spirit, tells us in he Word that we should lay hands on the sick and cast out demons, then the only way we reject his Word is by not doing those things which has said we should do. And if we do it in love, and in his name, as the Spirit leads, and according to His manifestations, then we will not be cast out.

    It’s not rocket science!

  39. @Newsong

    If we are to be doing the Word of Jesus not just hearing – what is the primary exhortation of the passage?

    Is it:

    1. make sure all of you lay hands on the sick and cast out demons; or

    2. to “beware of false prophets” – i.e. look out and be on the watch for these guys – they come to you in sheep’s clothing i.e. they are not wearing a t-shirt saying “false prophet” in fact they look just like a member of the flock in almost everyway – therefore not everyone who teaches in the name of Jesus Christ and who performs signs and wonders in that name is, by that alone, a true spokesperson for God…

    I think its true that false teachers ARE God’s judgment on people who don’t want God who has revealed himself in Holy Scripture but in the name of religion, fashon a “god” to their own liking as a means of satisfying the unregenerate heart’s carnal desire (simple pagan religion).

    Jeremiah 17:9 discloses the nature of the unregenerate human heart – The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

  40. @5.S…

    You have a habit of setting up convenient arguments for a case, assign them to the person you are addressing, and proceeding as if they are the only options. I’ve pointed this out to you previously, yet you continue with this practice. Neither of your points is THE point. Try:

    3. to do the will of God. To build our house on the rock, which doing the Word, and not hearing it only.

    How can we know the will of God? By the Word of God, because the Word is God, and his Word is revealed to us by the works of Jesus, by the written Word of his Testimony, and by the indwelling Spirit, who bears witness of the Word, and bears witness with our regenerated spirit to everything God the Father has freely given us.

    How can we be doers of the Word and not hearers only, deceiving ourselves? By hearing the Word, and believing the Word, and then living and activating the Word as per instructions given in the Word.

    The identification of false profits can only take place if we, who test every spirit to see if it is of the Lord, actually know what to test for by living out the Word and will of God for ourselves. We know them by teir fruit because learn what good fruit is though application of the Word.

    First things first. You cannot identify the false without knowing the true.

  41. On the unregenerate heart of the sinner…

    If you are claiming, as per Jeremiah 17:9, that your heart remains unregenerate, then you need to hear the gospel preached, believe it, receive it, and accept Jesus as Your Lord and Saviour, so that God can remove the old stoney heart, and give you a new heart, and new spirit, which have his will and word and statutes engraved in them, and so that Holy Spirit will be with you to help discern the false and the real error and truth.

    When people are born again, they are born from above, and receive the Spirit of God. They are no longer unregenerate, and no longer separated from God, but set a part for him. This is the key to all that Jesus is saying.

    When we receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour, we have already taken the first step into the will of God, and have already been accepted in the Beloved.

    From there on we can be doers of the Word, and work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

  42. @Newsong

    The context of the verse is of course to “beware of false prophets” – If you think I setting up a convenient argument – no, I just dont agree with your exegesis insofar as you imposed the following on the verse:

    “Now if Jesus, by the Spirit, tells us in he Word that we should lay hands on the sick and cast out demons, then the only way we reject his Word is by not doing those things which has said we should do.”

    Re the second comment – not sure the point you are making – without getting into a scuffle about regeneration preceding faith – I was merely pointing out that Jermiah 17:9 reveals the condition of the unregenerate human heart – Im sure you agree – its the unregenerate heart that wont endure sound doctrine but is drawn to these false teachers by their flattering words & prohecies and scratching the itching ears?

  43. The subject is false teachers. The means of identifying them is by their fruits, and whether they are doing the will of God. The way to avoid them is by being doers of the Word.

    The whole sermon lasts several chapters, and tells the hearers how to successfully live under the law of Moses, and hints at how the New Covenant will supersede the Old they were then living under by revising some of the things they knew under the law. Jesus arrived under the Law, fulfilled the law and brought us out of the law into grace.

    Anyone who has ever attempted to live according to this sermon will know that it perfectly sums up the human inability to live under Mosaic Law, and the need for God’s grace. What Jesus is leading us to is the life of faith, not the life of legalism.

    Whilst the principles still hold, the application is to false teachers who were under law, primarily, in Jesus’ day, the lawyers who hounded him, and, eventually, had him crucified.

    This scripture is too often used to point the bone at ministries which ‘discernment’ ministries take exception to, and is waved in the face of anything disapproved by these modern day Pharisees, most of whom have a strange aversion to miracles and signs.

    I mentioned the conversion process to highlight the truth that the only way to fulfil Christ’s requirement for entry into the kingdom was through faith in him, and the only way to do the will of God and not be rejected was to be born again. jesus himself said that he was the only way, being the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one gets to the Father but through him.

    Secondly the only way to identify false teachers under the New Covenant was to be born again and filled with the Spirit, since it is by the Word and Spirit we are able to test every other spirit, whether it be of God. We cannot merely bandy about scripture out of context to show some point we are trying to make about signs and wonders.

    So, if Jesus says we will do the things he does, and greater things, because he goes to the Father, then we should expect that it is perfectly normal practice to expect healing, deliverance and the preaching of the gospel to be a common part of what believers do to be obedient to God’s will and Word.

  44. @Newsong

    “the only way to identify false teachers under the New Covenant was to be born again and filled with the Spirit, since it is by the Word and Spirit we are able to test every other spirit, whether it be of God.”

    Is than en explicit teaching of the new testament?Book, Chapter, verse please

  45. 1 John 4
    4 ¶ You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
    5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.
    6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

  46. 1 John 4
    13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
    14 ¶ And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
    15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

  47. 1 John 5
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
    4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.
    5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

  48. There is a possible exception, although the ascension gifts would still have to be accompanied by the Word and Spirit, so it is not really an exception:

    “He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head–Christ…”

    Not an exception because the Spirit will teach us all things we need to know:

    “If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever–the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.”

    And so, as well as this, the Godhead dwells with us…

    ‘Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

    And the Helper is always present to show us God’s will”

    “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

    And he wil testify of the Word of God, and we will not stumble because of false teaching or fear of man:

    “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning. These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble.”

  49. @Mosco…’Judas Hanged Himself….Go do Likewise….’

    Are you being serious about this, or cantankerous?

    Haven’t you just proved my point by linking two unrelated phrases, well out of context with their surroundings, the basic rules of exegesis, and the entire canon of scripture, to prove your own point, making you, if you were serious, a false teacher. A new Christian could have discerned this just by the words you used. The Spirit, of course would confirm it, but knows it is not necessary, since this is such an obviously fraudulent claim!

    I don’t know quite why you are fighting truth like this. You must know that what I’ve said is both correct, and orthodox!

  50. “linking two unrelated phrases, well out of context”

    Glad you detected that! if we keep going like this we might find a direct link between war and bloodshed!

  51. I’d rather enjoy the direct link between heaven and healing.

    Not interested in bland point scoring! Nor pointless discussions.

  52. Sure – and if that thare devil happens by – dont tell im nuthin otherwise

    (but its always a good strategy to allow for the reality of our earthly existence as a result of the fall and have a decent health insurance policy tucked away just in case)

  53. Something sad about folk who perfectly understand the dangers and evil of the devil’s presence, but baulk at the thought of God’s promises and power. What was it Jesus said about faith?

  54. @ 5PS. I’m not innocent with some of my comments either. But I would really appreciate it if you backed off from Newsong and argued with him reasonably over doctrine.

    I have no problem with controversy and colourful personality. I do not appreciate the fact that you just encouraged someone to go hang themselves. Hugely inappropriate. I wouldn’t even go that far.
    Be heated. Just don’t lose it.

    I am sorry Newsong that you had to cop that harsh comment from 5PS.

  55. Thanks specks&planks! No apology necessary.

    I didn’t take Mosco’s comment that way, but I appreciate your defence of reason!

    I rather thought that Mosco must be grudgingly admitting the points I made by throwing out a diversion.

  56. Ok back the truck up a little!!!

    sorry – I apologise, that was not in any way what I was getting at – the statement is simply pointing to the importance of context!!!! Let me explain:

    Matthew said of Judas, “Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself” (Matthew 27:5).

    The Gospel of Luke recorded Jesus at another completely unrelated point as saying, “Go and do likewise” (Luke 10:37).

    Using the Newsong Academy of Creative Hermeneutics (NACH) Method™ we can therefore teach that Jesus wants us all to go hang ourselves right?

    Silly, isn’t it? However, this is the way some people approach the Bible. They pick one verse here and another verse there, put them together and come up with doctrine.

    THIS VERY CONVERSATION is an object lesson in the importance of context isnt it!

  57. @Newsong – I really do love you!

    Lifeline Australia 13 11 14 – Suicide Prevention, Crisis Support 24HRS

    Bad Petecostal Doctrine Crisis Line 13 23 45 -Correct Exegesis, Historical Gramatical Method Only, Signs and Wonders Rehabilitation, No Still Small Voices – 24HRS Monday to Saturday

  58. Ok. I understand 5PS. I hope both you and Newsong profit from this conversation rather than feel divided.

  59. @Newsong

    “What was it Jesus said about faith?”

    PICK ME – PICK ME!!!!!!

    A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up faith??? or was that anger??

    WHO CARES!!!! I LOVE THE “Newsong Academy of Creative Hermeneutics (NACH) Method™” !!!!!!

  60. Away wi’yer petty insults, Mosco. You are slipping into old habits, like ageing monks in a monastery!

    All I have done is give Book and Verse as requested. And at a 101 level to enhance your ability to perceive!

    What you have done is distance us from the points I made by introducing slap-stick comedy to give yourself a breather. I expect you’ll find some way to respond, but your lack of instant comment is telling.

    To back up: Your question:

    ‘“the only way to identify false teachers under the New Covenant was to be born again and filled with the Spirit, since it is by the Word and Spirit we are able to test every other spirit, whether it be of God.” Is than an explicit teaching of the new testament? Book, Chapter, verse please’

    My instant response:

    1 John 4
    4 ¶ You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
    5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.
    6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

    1 John 4
    13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
    14 ¶ And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
    15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

    1 John 5
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
    4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.
    5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

    In what way do these scriptures not demonstrate that it is by the Word and Spirit that we are able to discern truth and error?

    I could add to these, and remain completely in context, but I am not convinced you understand their significance. And they are completely contextual. I would have preferred to have quoted from 1 John 4 to 1 John 5 the end, or better still, the whole of 1 John, but space prevented this, although you are quite at liberty to read trough the entire 1 John text and see that I am correct and well and truly in context.

    You could add to this Jesus’ Last Supper teaching on the Holy Spirit, where he tells us the Spirit will be with those that believe, along with the admonition to remain in Him and in His Word.

    I really don’t see why you struggle with the idea that we will know error and truth by the Word and Spirit, but that we can only know the Word and Spirit through the new birth. It is written all through the New Testament.

    What alternative do you want to suggest?

  61. Of course! I realise why you struggle with this! You approach everything on an intellectual level, and so scripture can only be, for you, a intellectual exercise in doctrinal accuracy and theological veracity.

    Being able to know what is truth and error purely by being in the Word and Spirit isn’t intellectual enough!

    Oh my!

  62. @Newsong

    “Being able to know what is truth and error purely by being in the Word and Spirit isn’t intellectual enough!”

    No its just that it is indigestion more often than not

  63. @RP

    “Is this the new future of every conversation here?”

    There is always freewill, predestination, election!!!

  64. Sadly, it took a couple of Calvinists to reduce what I was saying to mere sensations and feelings. It saddens me to think that every conversation here would be diminished in this way.

    To qualify: what I mean by Word and Spirit is to have a sound knowledge and understanding of the Word of God, that is; clear, contextual doctrine, but from the basis of being born again, that is; born of the Spirit, and filled with the Spirit, not mere theological insights from a purely historical or intellectual standpoint.

    The reason for this is simple. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. If you shrink Biblical understanding to intellect alone you will produce the kind of hardline approach to Christianity usually displayed by legalistic discernment ministries which have no obvious connection to the Spirit. You will have law rather than grace. You will have flesh rather than Spirit. You will have dead works rather than the living Word.

    This is easily detected when intellectuals attempt to explain away the miraculous, and the power of God, so beautifully and compellingly displayed when Jesus walked the earth, and attempt to deny his power today. What Paul called having the form of godliness but without the power.

    So, please, if you must approach what is said this way, be in no doubt that what I am saying has absolutely nothing to do with what you are mocking!

  65. @ NewSong – Don’t you realise this “calvinist” (and “j’accuse” you of continuing down that track, having put it rest on the other post!) – has experienced all the warm fuzzies, liver shivers, etc and have discounted the majority for what they were, simply unbiblical experiences?

    At least have an understanding for the other side, particularly since we approach this as believers in the risen, redeeming Christ.

  66. I retract the accusation that you are a Calvinist, teddy! Sorry!

    But you did reduce what I was saying in league with Mosco. I think that was misleading, frankly.

    I made it absolutely clear what I was talking about. And it was thoroughly Biblical, and absolutely demonstrable.

    You added to the ooey-gooey-feely-touchy reduction after tagging unto Mosco’s unintellectual response. I don’t see how anyone can progress a discussion with this kind of juvenile approach.

    I guess it was just a coincidence that you are both Calvinists. Apologies again!

  67. @Newsong

    You have just gone and done it AGAIN!

    “The reason for this [theological insights, intellectualism] is simple. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life”

    – that is not the point of that verse albeit commonly abused in way you have done – it does not mean that attention to theoloigical doctrinal detail shrivels and deadens the soul as you infer. It means that God’s law brings eternal death because of sin; but God’s Spirit, shed abroad in the heart, brings life.

    – try this instead:

    “What Paul means is the dreadful handwriting of ordinances that was against us, and the death with which it kills is the eternal death of those who are forever separated from God.” – J. Gresham Machen

  68. That would be plagiarism!

    You miss the point, really. How can you not agree that a person who is not born again, yet who approaches scripture from a purely intellectual perspective is more prone to error that a person who is born again and approaches scripture at face value, led by the Spirit, with or without intellectual nous?

    I put it to you that most cults and religious legalism have begun from the intellectual standpoint, and could not possibly have been in or of the Spirit.

    The point of 2 Corinthians 3 is to tell us the difference between law and the Spirit. If the Word of the Law were at all helpful to us we would not have needed Christ to come and supersede it, and send the Spirit. The Word of the Law alone would have been sufficient. The Law would have been perfectly capable of keeping us. Our intellect would have sustained us without the need of the Spirit.

    Could you possibly come up with more intellectual sects than the Pharisees, or the Sadducees? They religiously theologised day and night on the Torah, and still failed to come up with the right lifestyle of faith.

    It is the Spirit who quickens. The flesh profits nothing.

  69. We are talking, remember, about knowing truth from error.

    If you are not born again, and in the Spirit, you are prone to error. You need the Word and the Spirit.

    Stay focussed!

  70. The problem with the pharisees was there misdirected zeal. They were accused of being genuinely active in hypocrisy. Some were also accused of being ignorant of scripture. Others were accused of knowing too much scripture but failing to see life in them.

    A good question for any of us is to ask where are zeal is being directed. I’ve had to ask this a number of times. For me especially when running Signposts02.

    Can we please redirect this conversation back to the topic.

  71. well now,

    every discernment ministry I have discovered is pentecostal … it’s just they have become evangelical as well.

    The problem for today’s church is that most evangelicals have abandoned evangelicalism while running after signs and wonders.

    That’s why Matt Ford is able to squeeze the unwise out of money that should go to God, not Matt Ford’s pockets. He’s a crook that should get done for fraud … see his “international college” scam.

    Very sad really, but the Toronto Blessing ended up in people clucking like chickens. If Paul didn’t cluck like a chicken, or bark like a dog … why does anyone think that the Lord wants us to?

    Shalom

  72. I think there’s already universal agreement amongst all contributors here that Todd Bentley and Matt Ford are not worth following for different reasons. There will always be people who are prepared to go for the hyper-spiritual, spectacular or unusual, but, if it is a fad, it will fade.

    However…the way we discern truth and error in the New Testament assists us to help others detect frauds early, and not be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine, so I would place a greater degree of importance on that particular discussion.

    But, having been asked to go back on thread, I will obey!

  73. (Im going to do an RP)

    I think what Newsong is saying is that Todd Bentley and Matt Ford not worth following because they are both God hating heretics and slick purveyors of pagan spirituliy with a Christian veneer for a price… they are the worst of frauds because while they make money from their scams, they are are invariably mocking and spitting in God’s face, leading people astray, standing in the way of people being saved, putting the sick and infirmed at high risk and giving the same false hope…and they do it with impunity and tax incentives….

  74. “if it is a fad, it will fade”

    the Gamaliel argument … so, if it’s dodgy it’ll fade?

    Like JWs or Mormons? How about Islam? I think that it’s completely wrong. It has no basis in fact or experience.

    Sorry.

    It is an extension of the WOF/NAR/Dominionist/Kingdom Now heresy. That is only going to grow and grow. It’s a worse cult than the Mormons since it is trying very hard to bring the Mormons in under its umbrella.

    Shalom

  75. @Bull… If it’s a fad, by definition, it will fade!

    Too many angry, restless people around here.

    If it is a cult, it will linger – for a while. I’m more inclined to think Ford is a fad with a pint-sized fan base, and Bentley is an error-prone creed-crooner. You can line it up with your ever growing NAR conspiracy club if you like, and pace the floor in anguish, but it’s far better to stay focused on Jesus, and keep your peace in place and your joy jocund!

    @5.S’ist… ‘what Newsong is saying is’ exactly what he says! Keep your own opinions to your own comments on thread and we’ll all get along nicely.

    If people are led a stray, it can only be because they are not paying attention to the very things the Word of God tells them.

    As soon as Bentley mentioned the angel Emma, they should have known. When he left his wife for another woman – what else is there to discuss? Matt Ford? Well, I actually think he genuinely loves Jesus, and thinks what he’s doing is OK. But it’s funny-farm stuff, and seeking attention, which is childish, rather than child-like.

    Nothing more to add, really, so I’d appreciate it if you didn’t.

  76. Newsong I guess your point is that if we’re pointing to the problems all the time we’re not pointing to the solution.

    I have no issue with letting the chips fall where they may – it needs to happen – but I agree I would like to here more about Jesus and stuff that builds up faith in Christ.

    Isn’t that precisely the issue in varying degrees that the likes of Ford, Bentley, Houston et al are copping it for?

    May be we need some yin and yang here (wait for it).

  77. Well, I wouldn’t put Houston in the same camp as Bentley and Ford, and I don’t mind identifying error, but let’s not spend too much time on proving how awful people are, and take a closer look at doctrine.

  78. Bull: “It’s a worse cult than the Mormons since it is trying very hard to bring the Mormons in under its umbrella.”

    Really? Where did you here that?

  79. Hmm, the more branches are erroneously attached to the conspiracy, the less likely it has any credibility.

    That ‘deception in the church’ article is so wildly speculative it actually damages its own cause.

    I always thought discernment ministries’ basic criteria should be Biblical truth and fact, not poor links on a speculative trail. It’ a bit like corrupt cops planting the evidence to win a case.

  80. All discernment ministries automatically dismissed by NewSong, unless they are in total agreement with his particular discerning gift of discerning what true discernment is!

  81. @Teddy – given that they (LDS church and Hillsong)all gravitiate to the “Burning in the Bosom” hermeneutic, they are not necessarily strange spitirtual bedfellows anyway – nothing surprises me about it, they are totally compatible.

    Remember my dialogue with TVD on the Trinity emphatically not being an essential Christian doctrine – and he is a pastor – I asked him why he would not consider the Mormon his brother then? Why cant father god have once been a man and who resides on a planet called Koleb? why cant lucifer be the half brother Jesus Christ – who are we to judge? Judge not…. right??

    Why cant the Catholic be my brother too – “infused” righteousness and “imputed” righteousness are close enough right? the representation (or the re-sacrifice as the defacto reality) of Christ’s sacrifice on the alter at the mass (which does not perfect anyone in righteousness) by the sacerdotal priest who is an alter Christusis (another christ) – fine too…

    Discernment is a dirty word and Apostasy is not coming, its already begun.

  82. @teddy…’All discernment ministries automatically dismissed by NewSong’

    Where? I am very comfortable with believers being able to discern truth from error, and have given Biblical reasons why and how they are led to do so through the Word and Spirit, which you and Mosco have unkindly mocked without reason.

    Why do you make such sweeping statements of none fact? If ‘deception in the church’ ‘ministries’ can’t be bothered to do some solid research that is his problem. He is as subject to discernment as anyone. Test EVERY spirit.

    @Mosco…’the “Burning in the Bosom” hermeneutic’ is your own device aimed at dismissing those who are led by the Spirit and not by intellect alone. You still haven’t successfully been able to articulate how a New Testament Christian is able to discern truth from error, or test every spirit without being engaged in the Word and Spirit.

    You have criticised the Biblical truth that believers are able to do so by the Word and Spirit, as taught by 1 John, and corrupted what has been said in your very own “Burning in the Bosom” Mormon hermeneutic, as if all people who are filled with the Spirit are somehow now Mormons, too!

    Apostasy is here, but not where you are looking.

  83. @Newsong

    “You still haven’t successfully been able to articulate how a New Testament Christian is able to discern truth from error, or test every spirit without being engaged in the Word and Spirit.”

    Why would I want to do that when I havent posited any such thesis?

    “Apostasy is here, but not where you are looking”

    What does that even mean….???

  84. ‘What does that even mean….???’

    Well if you compare Spirit-filled believers with Mormons, ie ‘burning bosom hermeneutics’ you are not very focussed on reality.

    Maybe I misunderstood, but I was under the impression that you challenged the notion that the Word and Spirit are valuable for testing truth and error. Or do you now agree that this is so?

  85. I once was Pentecostal myself, but admittedly I dont speak Pentecostal very well anymore. You have honestly lost me a bit – I havent changed my position – Im sure you would agree that given that I am Calvinist, you would not have to work very hard to convince me of man’s spiritual impotence prior to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit and the Bible’s teaching on the same??

    It naturally follows that (as Calvin wrote) spiritual discernment is wholly lost until we are regenerated.

    Im sure we both affirm the mutual bond of the Word and the Spirit – through the Holy Spirit, Holy Scripture speaks the Word of God. It naturally follows that error cannot and will not stand the test of biblical scrutiny.

  86. The Word and Spirit are essential for discernment. However, if spirit contradicts Word you are in the land of the fairies, tossed by every wind of doctrine.

    Word trumps Spirit for where the Spirit has already spoken, He will not contradict himself.

    Regarding the alignment of NAR Super-Apostles and the LDS, just look at the impact Glenn Beck is having amongst conservative christians in the Bible Belt. They like everything he’s saying and as long as we all gloss over the fact that he’s a Mormon, then we can ignore doctrine. HooRah!

    Word trumps experience. If your experience does not line up with God’s Word, then you need to ditch your spirit guide and embrace the Holy Spirit.

    Shalom

  87. @ Bull – “If your experience does not line up with God’s Word, then you need to ditch your spirit guide and embrace the Holy Spirit.”

    So true – had to ditch a lot of “experiences”, tongues being one of them. I don’t have the “gift” of tongues anymore, meaning I don’t do the babbling. Why does the church continue to promote this so unbiblically?

  88. @ Teddy, why do you think speaking in tongues is just babble. I know the scriptures etc, just wondering your point of view.

    It is very hard coming out of the pente scene and trying to fit in with a more traditional church, or a traditional one that is a “little bit pente”.

  89. The gift of tongues operating in the church today, should always be in agreement with scripture. It is a real language (1 Cor 14:10). It’s purpose is to communicate God’s Word to another in their own language (Acts 2:6-12). The gifts are distributed throughout the body and as Paul says, not all speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:30).

    It’s also a fulfillment of prophecy given in the OT to unbelieving Jews in the NT….. Isaiah 28:11 “For by people of strange lips the Lord will speak to this people, to whom He has said,’This is rest; to give rest to the weary’ and this is repose; yet they would not hear” ESV

    Most importantly this is where the churches are way out of line …..1 Cor 14:27-28 says “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two — or at the most three — should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God”

    When have you ever heard that spoken from the pulpit at C3? I go to an Anglican church!!! and the minister has said if any wish to give a word in tongues there must be an interpretation, otherwise sit down! At least it’s addressed and as yet it hasn’t happened.

    There is a vast community in the church world today who seem to think they have this “gift” (I certainly did) yet continue to practice it unbiblically. I have family members who are pastors at C3 who are in total agreement with the position I hold.

    Is it hard? You better believe it! It’s taken nearly 4 years to re-educate myself biblically but the journey has been worth it.

  90. @ Glittergirl – the Lord’s Prayer is something we really need to grasp hold of. When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, He didn’t say “Well if you just babble away in some unknown whatever, then you’ve got it!”

    It’s an example, a pattern how to pray.

    And this …

    Matthew:6:6-7 “But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words”.

    I used to go in to a room and “babble” away, then feel so empty afterwards. Since I’ve stopped that, I simply pray in my own language (English of course) and “feel” (pardon the expression) at last I’m having a relationship with Someone who’s listening. That emphasis is on me because He was always there!

  91. @ 5 Point – would love your sharing your testimony here about why you are no longer pentecostal. An edited version for anonymity perhaps if you must? Please?

    It’s really helpful for readers to see the progressive journey the Lord takes us on as He leads us to those “still waters”.

  92. As long as it is remembered that there is more than one journey. I get the sense that some feel if your journey doesn’t eventually arrive at a Reformed point of view, you still haven’t made it.

    I find praying privately in tongues is good if I am stressed. I don’t feel ’empty’ afterwards. (Mostly I do pray in my own language, but there are times when I find tongues really helps.) The point is not the phenomenon. It’s to help with prayer. Also, though I’ve found it helpful, and can testify about how this helped my walk in the past, I don’t think it is essential that people speak in tongues. Also, at my ex-church, if there were public tongues, there was always an interpretation. (Under the new leadership, before I left, these things have all been curtailed somewhat, which has diminished the role of the congregation in the church service and the opportunity for the Holy Spirit to speak through just anyone. This is interesting, since that church is actually now following the C3 model from the mother church more closely in many respects.)

    Whatever people think about the validity of these things today, this does show there are churches out there who take the instruction for an interpretation for public tongues seriously, and for whom it is not a show.

    It was interesting at times how those interpretations or prophetic words not in tongues, which often included scripture verses, dovetailed into the preprepared sermon.

  93. I cannot find a biblical case for private prayer language AND it’s not a salvific issue. This has nothing to do with a reformed position – it stills boils down to an experience-based theology. If the gifts are still operational in the church today, the least we can do is follow the biblical guidelines.

    By the way, I can still do the “tongues” if I want to, it’ s a learned experience when promoted through the pentecostal church, not a gift freely given to the Body (not all speak in tongues) for it’s edification.

  94. @RP – interestingly you have a good experience praying in tongues and I feel empty, both “experiences” which is never the determinant of doctrine.

  95. @ Teddy, thanks for the explanation. It was another one of those things that made me feel embarrassed to ask people to church. It didn’t make them go “wow”, they just thought it was weird. The Anglican I go to occassionally is good and they sometimes get people up to make a comment on what the Holy Spirit is leading them to say. Reeducation is difficult when you were involved for 25 years. You question everything and it can be confusing, it’s like starting at the beginning of a journey again.

  96. Teddy, it is good to question everything, and fine that you have come to your conclusions in line with your own understanding of scripture. However, I also have come to my own conclusions in line with scripture. We will not always agree. Your position is not the only validly argued one, and you are not an authority any more than I am. You imply that if I use tongues I am not ‘following biblical guidelines’ because you do not see a case for it. Well I do.

    I am almost ready to leave this site now completely because I’m sick of constantly having to defend my views against implications that they are not somehow scriptural. We will never all have the same view. Some things are clearly wrong and against scripture. In other areas, there are arguable views either way.

    I am actually worried about the influence of the Reformed church, because it is making headway in reaction to the Pente/megachurch extremes, but to me, it just seems like another extreme. It seems like a natural reaction to gravitate to that teaching – partly because there is actually teaching – after having had such a lack in the previous environment. However, it is not my route; I think the attitudes that emerge from it towards others do not reflect those that Jesus would have us had, and this indicates that all is not entirely healthy in that area. In other words, it is not an answer. I think everyone would at least agree that the answer is in Christ, and no particular movement.

    Goodbye to all – I don’t know if I’ll comment again or not, but the regulars here have all had good input into my thinking in the past couple of years. Now I think the direction has changed and I am no longer comfortable here.

    Maybe I will do my own blog one day where I can control the environment, but I have found it frustrating and discouraging here lately.

    God bless all, and goodbye. You can still email me if you like at ravingpente@gmail.com

  97. That’s a pity RP, because I been left with the same impression – having to defend my views when all I have ever done was leave C3 and read the bible in context and apply former experiences against the Word. Test the spirits is what we are told to do.

    @5 Point – is your testimony worth talking about here at this juncture? Some here have an former Anglican background and gone into the pentecostal church. They take those prejudices (against Anglicanism) with them. Our experience is the opposite.

    What I find extremely interesting is the return to reformation theology (which is hardly non-
    biblical considering the impact Martin Luther had on history), this is a world-wide phenomena, is this God-driven? I bet it is!

  98. I think RP is correct in her analysis of speaking in tongues as a prayer language and as a manifestation of the Spirit in the local church.

    The two manifestations, personal and communal, are often confused by those with cessationist tendencies (it is cessationist to say it has ended), and it is great pity, because it is a beautiful gift to the Church, quite outstanding and so precious to God and his people, especially at this time.

    I would agree that there is a case to be made for its incorrect use at times in some assemblies, but this is not evidence of it as a counterfeit gift at all.

    In our church, a tongue has to be accompanied by an interpretation, unless it is directed by the leader that it is pertinent to a meeting for all to pray in the Spirit, usually because there are only regulars present, os no confusion would arise. It is all done decently and in order. There are different kinds of meetings. Some prayer meetings would allow for praying in the Spirit as well as the understanding. Evangelistic meetings would, by necessity, be clear of speaking in tongues unless there was an interpretation. We regularly have tongues and interpretation. The guidelines are clear.

    Paul’s description of the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians talks about both manifestations. He says ‘I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all, but in the church, I’d rather speak with the understanding’ … IN THE CHURCH… that is, when there is an assembly of saints, when it is obviously far more logical to speak in a known language. This, in itself, says that tongues is an unknown language, although, there was a manifestation of it on Pentecost when the hearers knew their various languages, but not all knew every language spoken. Saying tongues must always be known is not accurate.

    In the same passage, Paul tells us that speaking in tongues is not speaking to men, but to God. This is enough of an encouragement for me to enter into it. NO MAN UNDERSTANDS WHAT IS BEING SAID! Sorry to shout, but these are Paul’s words. ‘Howbeit in the Spirit he speaks to God, not men, mysteries – hidden things!

    Well, this could not be referring to speaking in assembly could it, because Paul expressly advises against speaking in tongues in the assembly with an interpretation. So he is speaking of the prayer language. “I pray in tongues and I pray with the understanding, I sing in tongues, and I sing with the understanding’.

    ‘Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for NO ONE UNDERSTANDS HIM; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?’

    There is no problem with edifying yourself by speaking in tongues privately, because you speak to God, pray, or sing, but in the assembly it is better to prophesy, which edifies all.

    ‘Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.’

    I also agree that the reformist agenda tends to stultify the conversations of those who are bought up to walk in the Spirit.

    I’m sorry to see you go, RP. We don’t always agree, but I have always enjoyed your contribution, and said you are often the voice of reason! Go well!

  99. Sorry, it should say, ‘Paul expressly advises against speaking in tongues in the assembly WITHOUT an interpretation’.

  100. So are you suggesting that I’m not walking in the Spirit? Hardly possible as I received the complete indwelling of the Holy Spirit at conversion.

  101. I see both sides of what is being said here, and from my limited time reading these blogs we will all have different points of view. Sometimes we just have to come back to what we do agree on, and agree and respect everyone’s opinions on those issues that cause division.

    I have my own point of view on tongues, but I am interested to hear others. I can see both points of view, and in fact I have always found what Paul said to be contradictory on this issue. I think as long as an unsaved person can walk into a service and not think “what a bunch of weirdos” , and that there is order, ie not running around clucking like a chicken, and people babling everywhere then hopefully they will hear a good message. Personally if you speak in tongues in private prayer and it is edifying then I don’t see a problem there either.

  102. @ Glittergirl – I see both sides too, obviously 22 years united in a common experience does allow me to do just that. For all the talk about being “reformed” (seems to be a dirty word sadly), we haven’t lost our zeal and passion for a ongoing relationship with Christ, we haven’t grieved the Spirit by denying what truly can’t be proved to be biblical ie. private prayer language.

    We do speak in a tongue when we pray, it just happens to be English. Look, I can stand on my head when I pray, if it makes me feel edified, with all the blood rushing to my head I’ll probably have visions too!

    @ NewSong – Paul was using hyperbole.

  103. Teddy: “That’s a pity RP, because I been left with the same impression – having to defend my views when all I have ever done was leave C3 and read the bible in context and apply former experiences against the Word. Test the spirits is what we are told to do.”

    “So are you suggesting that I’m not walking in the Spirit? Hardly possible as I received the complete indwelling of the Holy Spirit at conversion.”

    Well this is a sad day. I really think that posters here are not aware of what they are about to lose.

    At the risk of offending you in particular Teddy – this is not about you as such – I think I need to say this – and understand I am not seeking to offend but express my own view, which I hope is broader than just my own narrow understanding.

    I am just one of 6.5 billion people, as are all of you, and one of countless billions who have gone before us, and perhaps to come.

    I hope and trust that the truth and mercy that has been extended to me in and through Jesus is exactly that. I know I will not have all things right. I use the Bible (not as well as I can) in tandem with listening to and for the Spirit in those things around me and my own heart, as well as my own personal experience. As I live longer I hope and trust in Jesus that I will get nearer to what is true, and nearer to Him.

    I trust in a risen Saviour – 1 Cor 15 and all that.

    I sympathise with those who have given all for large parts of their life to a view of God and a church to find out that much was a waste, deception and a lie.

    One bitten twice shy, and there is no one tougher than a reformed drunk, smoker etc – excuse the pun.

    I don’t know why – perhaps I do – but I’ve never been totally given over to a particular stream of thought, theology or whatever.

    Given the mistakes that I, and humanity in general make continue not just to make but repeat ad nauseum, it seems seriously brain dead, wilfully blind to do that. It does two things – cuts us off from other’s errors, but also any good they may have to offer and by extension entrenching the errors that we carry with us as part of our DNA.

    We need certainty – something to hang our hats on so we can relax, so we know we have it right, so we can get on with our lives. This need for certainty encourages the mindset above, because we don’t want to leave any room for the enemy of doubt (doubt is good actually).

    So it is with particular personality types – refer Myers Briggs – some people need black and white instructions, and if they don’t get them melt down – seen it quite a few times. So it is with reformed drunks, smokers and Christians – I’m not going to get burned again cause whatever I invest my life in I am going nail it, and no-one will ever lead me up the garden path again – this approach has both benefits – this may actually happen – but also dangers.

    So it is with adopting a specific theological bent as ‘the truth’. The contemplative, evangelical, charismatic/spirit led, holiness and other streams all have things to teach us as followers of Christ, but none including the ‘reformed’ stream have the answers. There will be adherents to each who – possibly more than the leading lights in those streams themselves – will embrace that stream to the exclusion of others.

    And thus the trend has been here.

    Mosco I address this to you in particular:

    I emabrace much of reformed doctrine – something you have never accepted – but I eschew it as ‘the truth’ – it is simply not possible – Jesus alone is the truth.

    My experience of reformed proponents is they suck up all the oxygen, and demand feasance to their truth, in exactly the same way as Potters House people say if you don’t speak in tongues you haven’t really made it as a Christian.

    You are a brother in Christ but talking with you is like picking up ‘two by fours’ at two paces and going for it. Show me where it says this way of talking with your brother and sisters is what Jesus wants of you.

    It is not of God.

    None of can know ‘the truth’, and yet this blog has become dominated by that view in terms of how we deal with each other.

    RP – thanks for your fellowship and encouragement over the years. God bless.

    To the rest of us God bless as well, and may He teach all of us deal with each other as Jesus has with each of individually – with mercy, gentleness, and love, and that we’re not as all knowing as we think.

  104. Incidentally I am very happy for people that have had that bitter experience of fining out that the church they have invested so much in wasn’t up to it, who though that God has led to a better place.

    I have been through that at least twice.

    I acknowledge that a reformed approach which focuses heavily on the written word has much to offer

    So thank God that he didn’t left us in those places that would have resulted in spiritual shipwreck.

  105. @ MN – Yes it is a pity, but I’ve never pretended to be sweet or concilliatory like RP (and I appreciated
    her differences very much).

    For me this blog has been a great place to air quite strongly held views, and I would like to think we are mature enough to deal with each other.

    Certainly pushes people back to their bibles if nothing else, not just being force-fed pablum from the pulpit.

    We have to learn to read between the lines I guess? Trying to understand individual personalities on this blog without judging (and I have been seriously judged for being reformed, started by FL and his angst against John Macarthur).

    My question to NS/FL about the Holy Spirit is a valid one. There’s plenty of people out there who think we are not spirit-filled because we “don’t go” to a pentecostal church anymore. And that’s just so wrong and the Bible is quite clear on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at conversion.

    Seriously that’s what has been suggested by PP at various times and he has a tremendous influence on people’s doctrinal thinking.

    I don’t know how much research anyone does here on the direction of the church generally apart from Specks? I do a lot and constantly try to line it all up against clear scripture – it’s not that hard! God never intended it to be!

    There IS a resurgence of reformed thinking amongst the younger generation and they ARE coming to that position via the bible, THEN they are drawn to guys like Macarthur, Piper, Driscoll.

    The Pentecostal church needs to really review their theology and be prepared to think critically and humbly about it. The dirt is mostly coming out of pentecostal ministries sadly, there is a sifting, no doubt about it.

    But God is so good, so forebearing and it is getting pretty heavy out in the world today.

  106. Can we know the truth? Yes – read your bible. As Justin Peters said “If you want God to speak to you, read your bible. If you want to hear from Him audibly, read it aloud.”

  107. @teddy “Can we know the truth? Yes – read your bible.”

    I think that is an extreme application of Sola Scriptura. There are other sources of truth besides the Bible. Reason is one. There is also “General Revelation”. The voice of the Spirit is another. These should all be lined up against Scripture as the final arbiter, but Scripture is not the sole source of truth.

    Even Sola Scriptura is, as we have discussed, ultimately self-contradictory and not to be used as an absolute rule. It is a very good guide. The Word of God is not the Bible but Jesus, as Heretic pointed out.

    In my opinion this viewpoint is the problem, not Calvinism in itself. Many people who want to use the Bible as the source of all truth gravitate to Calvinism.

    RP very sorry to see you go, I think I, like many people, were very interested to see when you had commented and your views had particular influence on us. Your grace, reason, prayerfulness and thoughtfulness always shone through.

  108. Perhaps this blog will continue to a place of refuge, especially for those “broken by the church”, my hope is that it doesn’t go down too diverse a track but stays true to the simplicity of the gospel as revealed in His Word. After all Jesus is the Word made flesh.

    And sola scriptura sounds pretty good to me.

  109. RP – “I am actually worried about the influence of the Reformed church, because it is making headway in reaction to the Pente/megachurch extremes, but to me, it just seems like another extreme.”

    Reformed Movement formaly took off on 31 October 1517 but started in principle in the late 4th century when Augustine of Hippo defended the church from attack by an influential hertical ascetic who denied the doctrine of original sin called Pelagius.

    As B. B. Warfield said in his assessment of the influence of Augustine on church history “It is Augustine who gave us the Reformation”

    In comparison the Pentecostal movement – January 1 1901 Topeka Kansas???

    The Reformation is not over…..

  110. This may be a shock but there are more colours and hues than pentecostalism and calvinism. They are just couple of colours out of many in the rainbow.

  111. @ MN – Sounds a bit “Metropolitan Church” to me! The whole rainbow thing, that is! 🙂

    mccsydney.org

  112. @MN – The main difference between the Reformed Theological bent to any other is that the reformed can stand upon the shoulders of giants

  113. @ MN – I apologise if this gave offence. Metropolitan Churches worldwide are gay- affirming and usually run by practicing gay pastors therefore I made the “rainbow” connection.

  114. @Wazza – theories of truth are notoriously intricate, however the affirmation of Sola Scriptura is not the staging area for such a conversation (not to say that it wont overlap in some aspects)

    I 100% and without a shadow of doubt affirm the statement “Can we know the truth? Yes – read your bible”

    Its a complicated thesis that can be fully answered in 500 words or less – so heres a great article with defending this thesis http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/280-The_Bible_As_Truth_Clark.pdf

  115. @MN – I understand what you are saying and Im not trying to be a jerk (mabey not trying hard enough) –

    I dont consider Reformation Theology as “the truth” as some derivative of omniscience – as I have said theories of truth are notoriously intricate but I hold that the Holy Scripture is true in the most literal sense of true and is the only source and norm of all Christian knowledge notwithstanding that there are gaps in our knowledge as Christians and as fallen creatures (cf the Reformed teaching of total depravity or absolute inability that no part of human nature escapes the devastation of sin, and among the passages on which this doctrine is based are some which describe the effects of sin on human knowledge)

    I do find that Reformed Theology far surpasses any other theology in its ability to “open blind eyes” and “deaf ears” (even of the professing Christian) to the excellencies of the gospel and the all surpassing majesty and power of Christ and far surpasses Pentecostal thought on the Pentecostal imperative of the work of the Spirit in the way it stresses and teaches the way the objective, written Word together with the inner, supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit work together and NOT APART (“Let the man who would hear God speak, read Holy Scriptures.” – Martin Luther)

    This is only the case because, providentialy God has preserved his written Word for our benefit and we can stand on the shoulders of giants who have enquired into it

  116. @teddy…’Paul is just using hyperbole’…

    …which is an exaggerated statement or claim not meant to be taken seriously.

    This is utter rubbish. He was telling Corinthian church how to run meetings decently and in order. He was very serious and concise. They some of the most precise instructions for the Church in the NT, and begin early in the Epistle. Or was he using hyperbole to describe Communion?

    Saying he was using hyperbole is a crass dismissal of profound truths discussed in these epistles.

    You are in denial, sadly, and preaching cessationist dogma, which is very shaky ground.

    I did not say you were not walking in the Spirit at any time. I said reformed agenda tends to stultify those who do by appealing to intellectual dogma above the spiritual. f you want to line yourself up with this you can, but you have claimed in the past not to be a cessationist. Can you still?

  117. I’m not in denial, when Paul said the words “though I speak with tongues of men and of angels……” that is hyperbole.

    In 2 Cor 12:4 Paul speaks of “how he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it was not lawful for a man to utter”. Let’s speculate. Language of heaven?

    You can justify what you practice yet Paul himself that the words he heard in heaven were not lawful for him to utter. Food for thought?

  118. By the way, what I did just then with 2 Cor 12:4 was take scripture and apply my own interpretation, just as the Pentecostal movement has done to justify “private prayer language”.

  119. @Newsong – as per ususal you are off the planet

    Teddy is right – of course it is a figure of speech of hyperbole – the particular arguments for so-called “angelic” languages can be answered easily. First, the statement of Paul about speaking “with the tongues of men and angels” does not imply that
    he or anyone else actually spoke “in the tongues of angels.” In 1 Cor 13:1-3 Paul makes a series
    of “if” statements, each of them being actually unrealistic:
    • “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels”
    • “If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge”
    • “If I have a faith that can move mountains”
    • “If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames”

    Note that Paul did none of these things. He did all these things to a certain extent, but not to the
    extreme mentioned at the end of each clause. He did speak in the “tongues of men”; he did
    possess “the gift of prophecy” and had some “knowledge” of “mysteries”; he did “have faith”; he did “give to the poor” and he did suffer in “his body” for Christ. But Paul never “fathomed all
    mysteries and all knowledge,” nor “moved mountains,” nor “gave all his possessions to the
    poor,” nor “surrendered his body to the flames.” These are all examples of hyperbole—making a
    point by exaggeration.

    For many biblical examples of this figure of speech, see E. W. Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (1898; reprinted: Grand Rapids, Baker Book House, 1981), 423-428.

  120. @5PS

    I dont say that Bible is not true, I’m saying its not the only source of truth.

    Now prove me wrong by a verse from the Bible, not a URL.

  121. Well, of course, you can bend it that way, and, in classic cessationist fashion, miss the point and the meaning somewhat, but Paul is not always, in every verse, or every phrase, using hyperbole when he is discussing the use of tongues in the church in the chapters of 1 Corinthians, even if you were correct about 1 Cor.13:1-4.

    He’s giving instruction in the correct use of the functions, operations, manifestations and gifts of the Spirit, and the motivation always has to be love, otherwise operation in the gifts gives no glory to God.

    Besides which, as teddy admits, the exegesis she used is incorrect. Even if it was hyperbole, the meaning is clear. He is not denying the use of tongues, or of faith, or of miracles, or of prophecy, but making sure of the correct use for the right motives.

    And the rest of 1 Corinthians is not hyperbole. The teaching on the correct use of tongues in private prayer and in the church setting is clearly set out, and is not teaching which is not meant to be taken literally.

    I think you are being either deliberately misleading or obtuse to suggest that all that Paul taught everything in these passages on tongues is hyperbole. Teddy should clarify this, or will be seen to be in abject error.

    None of this conversation, however, eliminates the solid teaching and fact of speaking in tongues. It is for today. It is for the believer. It is for the local church. It is for the Body. It is by the Spirit. It has not ceased, and will not cease until Jesus comes for the Church.

    Paul also says, ‘Forbid not to speak in tongues, Let everything be done decently and in order’.

    Is that hyperbole?

  122. What I mean by ‘classic cessationist fashion’, is that every seemingly negative scripture on tongues is loosely tied together to produce a hodgepodge of denialism doctrine. Which is no better than the JW’s trying to deny the Trinity by cut and paste scripture binding. No different at all.

    When I was a new Christian, in my third week, I arrived early at an Anglican Home Bible Study, and the minister was still putting together his text for the night. He wanted to do a study from 1 Cor.13, and, fascinated, I watched as, talking quietly to himself, but loud enough or me to hear, he culled everything on tongues. Being curious, and not having heard of speaking in tongues yet, I asked why. He said it was too controversial to cover in the study, and not necessary.

    Needless to say, my interest was so aroused that I went home and began an ardent study, but from the wonderful point of view of being completely open, hungry to learn, uncorrupted by false teaching, and not knowing anything. The funny thing is, that for the next few months, my wife and I couldn’t get a single evangelical in the circle we knew to explain these things, or anything about the Holy Spirit, for than matter. “Oh, you don’t need to know!” We were shut off from it all. That’s why we started asking the Charismatics and the Pentecostals, and it wasn’t long before we were filled with the Spirit, and praying in tongues. The vicar’s response – “We’ll see how long it is before you’re tempted!” God love him! Classic cessationist revisionist denialism.

    So here I watch as cessationists typically cobble together scripture and logic which adds up to denialism, and conveniently leave out not only the rest of the narrative which spells out the correct use of tongues, but also the very context of just an=bout everything form 1 Cor.12.1 to 1 or.14:40.

    And every time teddy calls the languages God has endued us with by the Spirit ‘babble’, I am appalled at the dagger being aimed at those of us who put their trust in the Father to enable us with this precious gift. It aught not to be so.

  123. Hey RP. It’s sad to see you go. You know my views about you leaving. You will be sorely missed.

    Frankly, one of the reasons Signposts02 has chugged along so well has been because of RP’s contribution.

    I also thought that Signposts02 naturally would swing to the Reformed Theological side to an extent. That is because the internet acts as a source and home to knowledge. More so than a place to be social.

    I’ve never wanted Signposts02 to swing the spiritual nutty side. By that I mean I’ve never wanted to encourage the gifts in a way that makes pronounce spiritual judgments, offer spiritual insights or encourage spiritual encounters. (EndTimesPropheticWord with Miriam Franklin.) With that not being my aim, I could only see it swing to a more Theologically Reformed way.

    God’s been really challenging me to ‘man up’ and to die to myself. I’ve been wondering if he’s been asking me to move on from Signposts02 or to be a bit more like RP and encourage everyone to show more of a compassionate side. I still wonder if I could have responded better to Beccy, who commented on SP02 not long ago on the ‘Bill Palmer Criques Phil Pringle’ thread.

    We live in interesting times.

  124. And thus it has always been.

    I remember my evangelical forbears (including reformed folk) who were deathly silent about all this except to bag people who were for it – tongues.

    I remember being set upon by Potter’s House people telling me I was in effect – not their words but certainly their intent – a second rate Christian.

    I remember being in charismatic meetings amidst the babble and wondering why they did this when Scripture says there should be interpretation – I never heard any in those meetings – ever.

    I remember being in a baptist church where someone spoke in tongues, an interpretation was offered, and bricks were shat – pardon the crudity.

    How is it that that the church on both sides can consistently get things so wrong? In contrast to what the bible and therefore God through it clearly teaches?

    Charismatics out of control? Evangelicals and reformed people who don’t really want to hear about the Spirit?

    Nothings changed in 30 years and Satan loves division.

  125. It’s improved somewhat, I’d have to say, mn.

    I can remember way back, when we were in a small country town in WA, a couple, who we did not know, and had never met, knocking on our door, having travelled at least 50 km, to tell us that tongues was of the devil! Lord knows how they discovered we had been filled with the Spirit, and spoke in tongues. We certainly did not publicise it. Those were the days!

    Now I meet with many people and ministers from formerly staunch evangelical movements who are either quietly or openly ‘tongue talkers’ – people from the Baptist Churches, Anglicans, Uniting Church folk, and similar, and the atmosphere has changed significantly, because Pentecostals are no longer viewed suspiciously. Some even lean towards the calvinist perspective, so things are changing.

    By atmosphere, I mean the way we interact, by the way.

    Just to annoy a couple of anti-NAR conspiracists, in our city, we just had a weekend which featured the Willow Creek inspired Global Leadership Conference, put on by local evangelical churches, and attended by leaders from many denominations! They even had T D Jakes, along with Andy Stanley, Christine Caine, and, of course, Bill Hybels, amongst a long list of recognised leaders!

    Some people may not like it, but unification of the global Church is taking place, and you can’t blame it all on the Pentecostals!

    Stay sweet!

  126. @Wazza

    “I’m saying its [Gods Word] is not the only source of truth. Now prove me wrong by a verse from the Bible”

    I will gladly prove you wrong from scripture and I will even show you how your presuppositions are self-defeating, if you answer me this one question:

    Can you prove from the Bible or an extraneous source (because the bible is not the only source of truth) that all propositional truth claims are always taught in single verses or proof texts in the Scriptures…

    A good place to start such an enquiry would be the doctrine of the trinity and while you are at it you could consider where I, either implicitly or explicitly, inferred that you denied that the Bible is true (and yet you said that I said did – without a explicit proposition to prove the same!!!)

  127. Scripture itself declares that the Word of God is not the only truth:

    ‘For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse…’

    All of creation declares the truth of a Creator. The very existence of life displays truth. Even science depends on the truth of things which exist. Since God is the true Creator, it is his truth before it is discovered truth. Science merely observes reality,and then unlocks its secrets, but they were known to God all along.

  128. @ NewSong – “And every time teddy calls the languages God has endued us with by the Spirit ‘babble’, I am appalled at the dagger being aimed at those of us who put their trust in the Father to enable us with this precious gift. It aught not to be so.”

    Was that Shakespeare or NewSong? 🙂

    Preaching to the choir here, NS, I’ve been “babbling” since 1986. Notice I’m saying “I”. From the outset, I said that I do not believe I have the gift of tongues, never denied the true gift, because God is sovereign and adminsters the gifts to the Body as he wills.

    My “feelings” or lack thereof (RP’s experience is different) about how it made me feel empty was not the cause of my stopping – the bible did that for me.

  129. A question – when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane, was he praying in a heavenly language to His Father? I see the words written down quite clearly in my bible.

    Let’s look at the Greek word “battalogeo” – “batta” isn’t a word. Jesus uses it in Matthew 6:7 “When you pray don’t (go batta,batta, batta) use vain repitions as the pagans do.”

    Paul does the same thing – there’s “a tongue” – called babble, and “tongues” – known languages. Both words are used by Paul in addressing the church at Corinth. If Paul can call it “babble”, I don’t see a problem using today.

  130. @ MN – “I remember being in charismatic meetings amidst the babble and wondering why they did this when Scripture says there should be interpretation – I never heard any in those meetings – ever.

    I remember being in a baptist church where someone spoke in tongues, an interpretation was offered, and bricks were shat – pardon the crudity.”

    One being biblical , the other not.

    Why were “bricks shat”? Was it the pastor or the congregation? As I said before, this is addressed at our church, but it just doesn’t happen, and there are charismatics in our congregation.

    The only demand is interpretation which then needs to be judged. (The charismatics are certainly not shy, by the way, just sticking close to the Word).

    Prayer offered for the sick seems to be the area where the Lord is moving in our church at this time.

    How far do we go in allowing an experience to determine our theology?

  131. Goodness, teddy, you have the gift of tongues, and consider it false, and you are clearly not yet delivered. What will you do with this, because, if it is not of God, what spirit are you speaking by, but, if it is the utterance of the Spirit, why do you quench him?

  132. Teddy first: the pastor and the congregation. And it wasn’t that long ago. It was being confronted with something they couldn’t control. It was shut down and the church suffered as a result.

    Teddy: “How far do we go in allowing an experience to determine our theology?”

    You experience your world through your consciousness, which includes your theology. It may not determine your theology, but surely acts as a filter. If it doesn’t you are dead.

    Having regards to Wazza’s question which to date has been ignored, four words come to mind – caution, humility, wisdom and courage.

    NS: this whole thing started – apart from the barney between you and Teddy – over a judgment that RP’s gift of tongues and the way she practiced it was not biblical – if not stated it was implied with the direct implication that RP was wrong in her understanding of Scripture – lets not make any bones about that.

    Now you’re following up by saying to Teddy that her understanding of the gift she thought she had but isn’t is biblical? Apart from the fact that this is becoming very confused, this yet another unfortunate imbroglio has come about by others judging others from unknown distances about things which it is not for the other to judge.

    To wit: Teddy has a view about tongues and has concluded her exercise of it is not biblical so she stopped – what is the problem with that?

    RP exercised that gift – her conclusion being in the unintrusive way in which she practiced it, and how it helped her – but was effectively told she was wrong.

    Sin came from eating of the tree of good and evil – from that came sin. Our knowledge is dangerous. The damage done because of the things we know is truly staggering.

    I have met one man in 30 years who exercise these gifts publicly in a biblical way – true Idon’t move in those circles – but one man. I have met a few who use tongues privately and they have all been Godly people – including my wife. I don’t have it – asked for it and didn’t get it – not fussed.

    The rest I can put in two camps – the charos where my ‘experience’ is it has been predominantly babble, and the rest who try and shut down things of the Spirit because it scares the hell out them (not a bad thing).

    My experience has guided me to this: bible says its in so I can’t write it off. I have met people who use it publicly correctly (or are used of God where others let Him), and privately in ways that I can’t write off. Therefore on balance I will go with it.

    My disappointment over the years is that the body of Christ continually fights and argues over these things, and severely diminishes what God might do if we behaved better and just simply relied on the obvious for a change, and trod with caution over those things that aren’t.

    But I am not surprised because our history throughout is to screw things up.

    Verses about stumbling blocks and being known by our love for one another, wisdom, not judging in terms of salvation , and salvation itself being a mystery get lost in the family feud(s)about what we know and why others are wrong.

  133. “Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me.”
    “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
    “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

  134. Well, just had an interesting few hours outreach at the local Newport Market, the number of bibles given away was incredible. Young men and women (teenagers) who came to us for those bibles, didn’t need encouragement. And an opportunity to witness to a lovely old lady who is not a “Jesus” person anymore and now an atheist. Lots of opportunities and done at no cost – love the local church!

  135. MN –

    this is the answer to Wazza’s question – NO, there is no self-contexualised single proof text in the Bible in the affirmative for the proposition “Holy Scripture is the only source of truth”

    However, for clarity’s sake, what I was pointing out purely to set a foundation for the discussion is – if all propositional truth claims in Scripture are, without exception, taught in single verses and derived by single proof texts in the Scriptures, that leaves us Trinitarians in a curious position doesn’t it moron? Have you never listed to a debate between a trinitarian and a non-trinitarian???

    I am certainly not saying wazza is not giving the Scriptures their proper place, thats why I am trying to probe a bit deeper into his question – is that ok with you? If anyone has the propensity to stir shit MN it is you “Brother”….either meaningfully contribute to the discussion or piss off (I would prefer the latter)

  136. MN

    “Having regards to Wazza’s question which to date has been ignored, four words come to mind – caution, humility, wisdom and courage.”

    Having considered that unintelligble jumble of bovine schatology, three words come to mind – what on earth???

  137. One final comment before at Mosco’s request I piss off.

    The bible is not the only source of truth.

    But if the bible contains truth about God which we do well to take heed of, how then to we proceed?

    With caution, humility, wisdom and courage, where we cut each some slack.

    You Mosco have done as much – more in my mind – to make this blog a thoroughly unpleasant place to be, than the troubles with FL ever did.

    All the best to Specks, Wazza, RP, FL, Bull, NS, Teddy et al

  138. @Wazza – futher to this subject, whether you want to discuss it or not, I say the following:

    I am referring to Absolute Truth – are there propositional truths outside the bible? – of course -Paul in recognizing this, quotes from pagan philosophers, but no one would think that Paul was, by citing a pagan philosopher, adding it to the canon of Scripture.

    But for Paul, Christ is the foundation of all truth and knowledge and apart from him there is only ignorance and darkness and for this knowledge of the truth, the Apostle was so swallowed up in, that he was determined not to know any thing else; he was resolved to make that his only study, the governing principle of his life, the point and end in which all his thoughts, words, and actions, should center.

    Your proposition presupposes the existence of truth – so if there is truth, arent you also assuming the existence of a law/s by which to differentiate between what is true as opposed to what is not true (i.e. one example – the law of non-contradiciton – contradictory statements cannot both at the same time be true)? And if you posit the existence of a law by which to differentiate between what is true as opposed to what is not true, aren’t you then assuming the existence of an Absolute Law-Giver, who determines the very nature of Truth?

    Transcendentally (the a priori or intuitive basis of knowledge as independent of experience) You cannot claim a law (expressly, impliedly, presuppositionally – whatever) in logic or otherwise, without the Absolute Law-Giver, who determines the VERY NATURE of Truth.

    In that regard, we can refer to Jesus Christ, the mystery of Devine Personality as the ultimate expression of truth – as found in the Scriptures, in Jesus who said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life…” God is the source of every method whereby knowledge may be attained; that is, God is the ultimate source, not only of truth, but also of logic and perception, or the systems by which all truths are recognized and interrelated. Jesus is the ultimate manifestation of truth and the only way one can get to the Creator and if there is indeed a Creator, then He becomes the standard for absolute truth, and it is His authority that establishes that truth.

    For Paul, Christ is the foundation of all truth and knowledge and apart from him there is only ignorance and darkness and for this knowledge of the truth, the Apostle was so swallowed up in, that he was determined not to know any thing else; he was resolved to make that his only study, the governing principle of his life, the point and end in which all his thoughts, words, and actions, should center.

    Further to that authority, we need to go the Scripture’s own teaching about itself, such as we find in 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21

    2 Timothy 3:16 in that noting that Scripture is theopneustos, “God-breathed.” The term is not benign but very strong (B.B. Warfield once did an excellent exposé of it) That which is theopneustos has ultimate authority, for there can be no higher authority than God’s very speaking. “All Scripture is Godbreathed.”

    That will do for now

  139. @ mn… ‘Teddy has a view about tongues and has concluded her exercise of it is not biblical so she stopped – what is the problem with that?’

    Nothing at all, except she advised someone that tongues is babble, as you did, and that most speaking in tongues in Pentecostal churches is unscriptural, as you did.

    On this basis I gave scriptural reasons for modern day tongues.

    My remarks on teddy’s personal tongues experience are, I admit, tongues in cheek, so maybe someone will have to turn the other cheek in regard to tongues!

    Suffice to say that I consider tongues an important part of Christian life, and at at all a gift to be easily dismissed.

    I wish you well as you go, and thank you for your candour.

  140. MN – “The bible is not the only source of truth”

    Curious as to why he wont give an example and how the same might disprove ispo facto what I was saying – i.e. theories of truth are complicated – what do you mean by truth….

    If jesus was trying to make a scientific and botanical argument when he said the mustard seed is the smallest seed – he would in fact be a LIAR – and a scientific journal (i.e. A SOURCE OUTSIDE THE BIBLE) said No – epiphytic orchids of the tropical rain forest produce the world’s smallest seeds – then that would be telling the truth?

    What Jesus said is in fact not literally true but true literally (i.e. complex theories of truth) – this is a bit of a friggin nuance in terms of what we mean by truth isnt it MN???? – thats what I have been trying to say all along you idiot….

    The biggest problem about this blog is that people do not give others a sufficient opportunity to propoerly explain themselves

    With all “caution, humility, wisdom and courage” I say you are just a hypocryte and totally full of shit MN – your feelings about me are very much mutual – I assure you!!!

  141. In almost every instance between me and you MN – I could unequivocally prove it is you who actually quashes rankerous, and robust debate and discussion and incities the unecessary and pointless emotionally driven crap. You try and emotionally manipulate every situation to your advantage by bringing your expected standard of morals and conduct in EVERY (and I mean every discussion) – and you are simply inconsistent with those standards yourself.

    I know you are one of the old timers and just assuume superiority on this blog so that new comers like me have to bow down to you – too bad – I know you didnt like me from the start, no skin off my nose!!

  142. I don’t think you can suggest mn ‘started it’, Mosco.

    He’s been around for some time now, and is generally known for being candid, but fair and self-controlled. I am very surprised he has let you get t him like this, and I have a notion that you would count him as a prized scalp because he lost it couple of times with you, as did TVD. I would say that your general demeanour is what ‘started it’. This never arose before you arrived, believe it or not.

    I don’t personally have a problem with strong, or even heated debates, but this is pointless and a foul witness.

    You may well be right about many things, and I’ve said this before, but being right and acting right with what you know to be right are two different things. You speak to people as if you are not actually a Christian. You provoke them and then slap back when they react as if you are the one being affronted.

    You should get this sorted. It is a poor character train, and t is character before ability which qualifies a man for service.

    Neither is it for you to tell people to shove off if they can’t successfully communicate with you. Those are the words of a manipulator with an oppressive nature.

    God wants all of us, including you, to be good stewards of his inheritance, but I don’t see how you qualify if you can’t be a good steward of your own attitude and manners.

  143. @specks&planks…’I’ve never wanted to encourage the gifts in a way that makes pronounce spiritual judgments, offer spiritual insights or encourage spiritual encounters…With that not being my aim, I could only see it swing to a more Theologically Reformed way.’

    Good luck with that, specks&planks. I wonder why you haven’t had the ‘spiritual’ fortitude to take more of a firm stance over the reformed agenda which has dominated this blog for so long, and threatens to destroy it completely with its unyielding dominance and dogmatism.

    All the talk of ‘dominion theology’ as a cultish practise, when another kind of theological dominionism is taking place right before your very eyes, and tearing just about every thread apart.

    I think you should get into the Spirit, and make some value judgements and gain some insights into how to have real encounters with real people of God, before the whole stack collapses.

    I can’t believe you actually admit you could see it coming and be seen to applaud its arrival!

    You don’t chose how the gifts operate. If they are of the Spirit you are merely the vessel,not the Fat Controller!
    •••••••••••••••••••••••••

    Disclaimer:
    [That was a reference to Thomas the Tank Engine’s Fat Controller, not a real person]

  144. The “reformed agenda” only became a problem here when you started objecting to John Macarthur , NewSong.

  145. @Mosco… ‘In comparison the Pentecostal movement – January 1 1901 Topeka Kansas???’

    Oh really?

    Acts 2
    1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
    3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

  146. I see the discussion has developed along unsavoury lines while I was away. Mosco – you are a formidable intellect but I wouldnt converse with you in real-life if you conducted yourself in that way to a brother, and so I wont continue any conversation online.

  147. @teddy… the reformed agenda is only a problem when it is so consistently and dogmatically presented as the only way.

    Any response is merely an apologetic, when it arises, to counter its excesses and inaccuracies for the sake of sound doctrine and balanced exegesis. It stands or falls on its accuracy to scripture, as with all doctrine.

    I am not the only one saying this.

  148. @Newsong – you want to step in for your kindred spirit MN? its the reformed theology that you cant deal with because you cannot adequately deal with scripture.

    Its been personal for both of you from the outset – Whilst you cant defend your sacred cows – You cant stand seeing them get slaughtered either!!

    You both have no backbone and if you think it worries me that you pair of morons dont think Im chrisitian – youre dreaming!!!- Im not going to let either of you pair of turds, misrepresent me, and try everything underhanded to make look bad because you cant win arguments

    – including lying like MN…he dam well knows what I said to Wazza – I dont like people who resort to lying because they cant win an argument – say what you will but I am quite happy burn you and your apostate theology over and over again – it what characterises

  149. @Wazza – MN is not my brother – you dont mind your brother lying about you to make you look bad?

  150. ‘Charismatic Chaos’ is to charismatics what Dawkins’ ‘God Delusion’ is to Christians, an angry, cruel and bitter work which bends truth to bring pain and division.

  151. @Newsong – “the reformed agenda is only a problem when it is so consistently and dogmatically presented as the only way”

    Demonstably, you dont even understand what reformed theology is – you are such an ignoramus..no wonder you fit in so well at C3

  152. Newsong

    “Any response is merely an apologetic, when it arises, to counter its excesses and inaccuracies for the sake of sound doctrine and balanced exegesis. It stands or falls on its accuracy to scripture, as with all doctrine.”

    “Merely an apologetic” – what on earth do you mean?

    Your a pentecostal and your mouthing off about sound doctrine and balanced exegesis!!! – can you name 1 well known respected Pentecostal theologian/scholar?

  153. What do you do about Martin Luther, NewSong? Not that I expect you to have actuually celebrated Reformation Day last week (I didn’t, but I certainly appreciate why).

    You seem to thumb your nose at every step the church has gained in history if it is “tainted” with eventhe idea of reform.

    I’m sorry to say I simply can’t get past the idea of your Rhema WOF education and Kenneth Hagin affirmation without shaking my head in bewilderment! And you judge my admiration of John Macarthur’s very sound scholastic abilities?

  154. @ 5 point – as a C3 pastor, NewSong has to deal with the FACT that some of the young leaders at C3 are becoming reformed, taking on board Piper, Driscoll, Chandler and Chan.

    Now whether this will cause him to take his church out of the movement remains to be seen. Otherwise he will have to seriously vet any young guest speakers coming from the “mother ship” so to speak.

  155. @Wazza

    Im quite happy not to converse with you when you didnt even read original comment properly – where did I accuse you of saying the bible isnt true – or do you have a problem handling the truth like your buddy MN?

    Why did my simple comment about truth provoke such a response from you – challenging me to find single bible verses, which Im sure you know is absurd?????

    I was simply making an observation buddy and I thought the URL would help – you know this to be true

    Still, even when you chose to get smart and it backfired I guess the only thing to do is to take your bat and ball and go home like MN

    Wazza – same goes for you – treat me with respect and I will do the same – simple –

  156. @Newsong

    “‘Charismatic Chaos’ is to charismatics what Dawkins’ ‘God Delusion’ is to Christians, an angry, cruel and bitter work which bends truth to bring pain and division.”

    You are just a sensationalist liar – I would bet 10 to 1 that you havent even read it!!

  157. Lots of diverse conversation going on here! AsTodd Bentley continues to fly under the radar (at fleamarkets).

    It doesn’t take much research on the Internet to find just how many people gave been set free from toxic churches through the ministry of the book “Charismatic Chaos”.

    What will you do if your congregants read it, NewSong, and decide for themselves, or to more biblical, be Berean? Will you ask them to leave? Or will you find they leave anyway,
    And you can then attack their character and John Macarthur’s publically?

    Or will you be like our minister this morning who told us not to take his word but to read as he reads aloud from the text and make sure he is held accountable to what the text really says, and if we don’t agree, speak up during question time after the sermon.

    Interesting times.

  158. @Newsong – if its charater before service mate, you certainly have got the cart before the horse

    Your just a filthy apostate C3 franchisee, pedling the Gospel for gain and theiving peoples money and preaching another gospel – dont presume to lecture me on character….

    Like I said about Bentley et al, I think much higher of your average corporate fraudster that slime like you heath and wealth, seeker sensitive, corporate pulpit pimps – the sooner the church gets to picketing your gates on a Sunday and preaching the true gospel, the better

  159. I’m sure you wouldn’t attack them NewSong, my apologies. But your attack here is as an anonymous blogger against John Macarthur and would AND should be not acceptable from your pulpit.

  160. @ 5point – I really appreciate your point of view on almost everything except name calling. If this shuts the blog down, it will be a pity. No one is winning here.

    We have an opportunity for dialogue here that can be volatile but still maintain a sense of unity in our faith in Christ.

    Take Pyrmaniacs for example, excellent diverse dialogue there. Would love to see that here.

  161. @Teddy – like I said before, if these guys treat me with respect, I will too –

    there are certain characters – particularly MN who really rub me up the wrong way – today he was doing it deliberately

    Im sorry – he is just a hypocrite, despite what Newsong says – he did start todays slinging match – its on the record, simply have a look for yourself – he waved the red flag

    The reality is, I did nothing to warrant Wazza throwing down the Gauntlet like that – but then MN butted in again – its MN that coined the phrase “spoiling for a fight” but he has perpetuated that attiude today

  162. @teddy… we have bookstore attached to our church which sells McArthur, Piper, Driscoll and many other similar authors. We’re not afraid of different ideas, or people checking them out, but if someone writes a book attacking other believers, he needs to accountable as much as anyone.

    Whether comments are anonymous or not is neither here nor there. You don’t seem to have much trouble presumptuously attacking what you consider to be my ministry using a pseudonym. Pot. Kettle.

    @Mosco…I gave you sound advice about your character. If you don’t want to listen, fine, but you are not acting like a Christian brother. However, I spoke to you as a brother because you were acting like an unbeliever, and I know you can do better.

    Calling me names is water off a duck’s back. I am not accountable to you, so fire away, but it’s just fiery darts, quenched on the shield.

  163. All’s quiet on the Western Front!

    So, an opportunity to settle accounts and come out clean.

    @Mosco… The only thing I said to you, as a brother, was that you had bad manners towards other commenters, and should deal with it

    In response you said had no backbone, was a moron, a thief, a pimp, a filthy apostate C3 franchisee (whatever that is), peddling the gospel for gain, a turd, a liar, an ignoramus, preacher of another gospel, slime, and probably a few other choice things I didn’t notice.

    Now, I think it wold be appropriate to end this by either providing proof of these defamatory claims or apologising.

    I don’t need an apology for myself. I forgave you for losing your temper and writing those terrible things. As I said it’s water off a ducks back. I’ve been insulted by the best, and had far worse. At least you don’t use the ‘f’ word, which was the very first word which greeted me on the original Signposts (because I said the key to restoring relationships is forgiveness!).

    I think an apology would clear your name somewhat, and let people know you said things in the heat of the moment, and did not actually mean those things.

    I still believe you have shown bad manners, so I will not apologise for saying so. It was meant to help you better interact with others. I will also point out that I did not doubt your Christianity, but said you were not acting like one. There is a difference.

    ••••••••••••••••••••••

    @teddy…The only provocative thing I have done here is make the point that some reformists tend to be too dogmatic, and stifle discussion. I think this is proven here.

    I have also said that the cessationist doctrine is error, and, as you know, McArthur is a chief exponent of this doctrine at this time, and his explanations are weak and poor exegesis, or, what you would call, eisegesis.

    You use him often as an example of exemplary doctrine, and in many areas he is excellent, so we don’t want to utterly dismiss a ministry for having a small amount of error, which is grace some extreme reformists would rarely allow. If you have one little thing in error, they claim, then the whole thing falls down. In some cases this would be correct, if it affects the root, but some error is subsidiary to the whole, and to be purged later. That is how I consider McArthur on some points.

    I say that the cessationist error diminishes the effectiveness of the Body. I would say that from the pulpit of I was prompted by the Holy Spirit to do so, but, as yet, I have not. I would rather teach what is correct from scripture than point out what is incorrect according to cessationists. It’s a waste of time. The antidote to error is truth.

    I would rather teach what is profitable about speaking in tongues, what edifies, what encourages and what comforts about prophecy, than spend valuable energy on criticising someone who is in error. That is a distraction form truth.

    On a blog, however, I can comment on issues which interest me personally, and say what I think is appropriate. Slamming me for making comments on a blog, and transferring that into the pulpit is unkind at best.

    The worse thing I called you was a calvinist, for which I apologised when you complained. You claimed I would kick people out of church, or chastise, and even ostracise them for reading McArthur, or studying reformed theology, and ‘seriously vet’ them. You have no grounds for this. You did apologise for claiming I would strike them, but you left the other accusations on record. I hope you’ll revise your opinion.

  164. @NewSong – I actually said “attack their character” not “strike” for which I immediately apologised.

    Enough said here, would like to see this blog continue, with some good manners restored. And an appreciation for each others diverse views, whether we agree or not.

    @ 5 point – you are a very smart guy, obviously just as passionate about things as I am. But the balance has been seriously disrupted and I don’t know whether that was your intent. I have been following this blog and the two preceding Signposts for at least six years and it has been helpful in processing the difficult journey leaving C3, along with the input of such fine fellows as Chris Rosebrough and John MacArthur etc.

    Where it goes from here may be totally up to you, I’m sure you could have bring some really interesting discussion here. As I has asked before, your testimony of why you left the Pentecostal movement could be helpful to the, perhaps many, lurkers around this blog.

    I guess the ball is in your court?

  165. @teddy… I’ll take it, then, that you retract the idea that I would sanction people for reading McArthur.

    I don’t see how Signposts02 can continue in its present form. It is far too aggressive, negative and not at all progressive. I fail to see how it could be of any assistance to a person leaving C3 or Hillsong, except to imbibe them with bitterness towards former associations, and draw them into a mode of theology which compounds the problem.

    Perhaps the site should be handed over to you and Mosco, under specksandplanks moderation, since he expected it would go this way, and be renamed Reformed Signposts.

  166. Newsong I went too far and I feel a rotten about that – I am sincerely sorry for what I said and unreservedly take back everything. I dont know you from Adam and I had no right to make judgements about you based on my own experiences of pentecostalism.

    I agree with our navel gazing bretheren over at “reflection room” it was nasty and distasteful. I dont know about “OHH SHOCKING!!! TERRIBLE…” as if it were on par with the holocaust….

    On a positive note, I am happy to say that if I ever wanted to be a pastor I could meet at least 1 of the biblical qualifications – I am the husabnd of one wife

  167. @ 5 point – seriously interested in your pentecostal experience in light of my own. If not interested just say so, at least say something?

  168. I apologise for my part in this, but will stay out of here for quite some time as a minimum.

    All the best all.

  169. Look forward to it…….in the meantime I’m downloading a feast of books on my Ipad including a free ESV Study Bible.

  170. @MN – I went over to Refraction Room and typed out a considerable discourse in apology – much along the lines of Newsongs above but I discovered your administrator has black flagged me when I tried to post it!!!

    The gist of it is, I relish our conversations about as much as hemorrhoids (and they tend to have about the same practical use) – Im sure the feeling is mutual – but I was really out of line and I went too far – so sorry…

  171. @TVDisillusioned

    please come back….I miss you, you crazy old preacher you!!!

    (damn Affliction Room is stealing all our talent)

  172. I would love it if more grace was shown on this blog. This includes me too.

    try contacting RP via email. she may reconsider. in the meantime, I would also like you to reconsider how you come across 5PS. it is something I do often on SP02 because of the controversial nature of this blog.

  173. @ 5Point – no, not Monergism. Just a random freebie that comes up. One day it’s free the next day not. Checking in regularly now to see what else comes up – missed out on……
    http://www.reformedvoices.com/2010/11/kindle-ebook-freebie-monday-only.html

    I’ve noticed the literary classic novels are always free, I used to borrow them from the library when I was quite young. My family were avid readers, we were from a different era, no TV when we grew up!!

  174. Just a quick note: It’s not my intention to replace this blog. I’m not going to duplicate what S&P is doing here. It’s not an ‘either/or’ situation. Many people will still wish to comment on the topics you cover, Specks, as long as they feel comfortable in the environment. It’s quite likely I won’t provide as much material for conversation either.

    As you say, it is controversial here. My one probably won’t be so much. If it survives, it may be a bit more relaxing. There’s a place for both. They are just two tabs on a web browser after all. Easy to track both at once.

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