God Calling and Name Calling

From: http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=6684

Posted: 11/28/10

Is It Negative and Unbiblical to Name False Teachers?
By Brannon Howse

www.worldviewweekend.com

After our Worldview Weekend Rally in Rockford, Illinois on Sunday night November 21, 2010, we were informed that the church we had been renting for the past few years does not want us to return. What is really sad is this is the church in which my wife grew up and has included five generations of her family dating back to her great grandparents on both sides of her family. One set of great grandparents were two of the original 13 founders of this church.

At the conclusion of our November 21, 2010, Rockford Worldview Weekend we were told that three months before the rally the church staff had voted for Worldview Weekend not to return in 2011 because our 2009 rally was thought by some of the church staff to be too negative and that it was inappropriate to name the name of false teachers.

I asked what their senior pastor thought about that evening’s Worldview Weekend Rally but was informed that the senior pastor had chosen not to attend the conference.

Please understand that I am not going to name the church because those that attended the conference and live in the area know the church of which I speak. I am not writing this article because of some kind of personal offense but to highlight how Biblical truth has become an offense to most of America’s churches.

Many such churches would claim to love truth but what they really love is a man-centered Christianity that helps them obtain success in their marriage, finances, family, and a positive attitude that produces health and a successful personal life without the pain of dying to self, picking up the Cross of Christ and being persecuted for proclaiming Truth.

II Timothy 4:3 tells us that many Christians will only want to hear what makes them feel good and appeals to their flesh; “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.”

The 2009 speakers that joined me for the Worldview Weekend Rally in Rockford, Illinois included me, Dr. Erwin Lutzer and Dr. David Reagan.

In my 2009 presentation I spoke on the topic of my book Grave Influence and I did name such Emergent Church, false teachers as Pastor Brian McLaren who has said the cross and hell is false advertising for God. I named Pastor Bill Hybels that signed the Yale document that states that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. Hybels has also had Brian McLaren at his church. I also mentioned Pastor Rick Warren who sits on the advisory board of the Tony Blair Faith Foundation that seeks to bring the religions of the world together. I also named Pastor Rob Bell who has proclaimed an abundance of heresy and who has also spoken as Bill Hybel’s church. I spoke on why pagan spirituality was doubling in America every eighteen months and how many New Age practices had come into the churches of America such as “Christian” yoga and contemplative prayer. I explained how Christian could proclaim the Gospel to a postmodern culture that has become more interested in spirituality than theology. I also warned last year, as I did this year, that many churches are being compromised from within by church staff that do not adhere to the Biblical mandates and purposes of a New Testament church and are an inch deep and a mile wide in their doctrinal and theological understanding and commitment. I warned that the remnant should understand that our greatest opposition would not come from the government but from those that have the title “reverend” or “pastor” in front of their name. Click here to hear a few minutes of the presentation I presented at this church in 2009.

In 2009, Dr. Lutzer spoke on seven lessons America should learn from Nazi Germany and Dr. Reagan spoke on 50 signs we are living in the last days. All three of us used a lot of scripture to equip those in attendance to understand the times and know what God would have them to respond.

Worldview Weekend is thankful for the churches that will allow us to rent their buildings but the increasing trend is that we are being forced to rent more and more hotel ballrooms because so few churches have leaders, staff, and pastors that have clear discernment, real courage under fire, and an unwavering commitment to Biblical truth in an age of non-judgmentalism, tolerance, and Christian happy talk.

No one ever said being a watchman on the wall that warns of impending danger was going to be a popular job but if popularity is what we seek then we are not seeking to be faithful to the One we serve and thus we have failed in our calling.

Warning the church of emerging dangerous, unbiblical trends, false teachers, a false gospel, and unbiblical theology and doctrine has now become negative in the eyes of many of today’s hirelings. Jesus Himself told us that we would see those that claim to be shepherds/pastors that really have little concern for the sheep. In John 10:11-13 we read:

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

Listen to this audio of Pastor John MacArthur as he explains how Jesus named the names of false teachers and how this is the job of all Biblically minded Christians and true shepherds. In this audio clip Pastor MacArthur calls out Rick Warren by name for teaching a false gospel.

Worldview Weekend will not be deterred in speaking truth no matter how unpopular it becomes with individuals or members of a church staff.

Needless to say, I was concerned how my wife would respond to this criticism since she was raised in this church. Her response revealed to me, once again, how blessed I am that God gave Melissa to me as a helpmate. Melissa’s response was “why are you surprised, you knew this church was becoming increasingly liberal over the past few years. I was shocked they let Worldview Weekend return for the 2010 rally.”
Melissa encouraged me to shake the dust from my shoes and go out and find a hotel ballroom. She also encouraged me to continue to bring the Worldview Weekend to Rockford because of all the people, including life-long friends, that come up to her at the resource table to express their thankfulness that Worldview Weekend returns to Rockford, IL each year.

In fact, that night, while standing behind our resource table, a medical doctor, that is a member of this church, handed my wife a letter he had written to his children after last year’s Worldview Weekend in Rockford. In his letter he wrote in part:

…I attended a Worldview Weekend Rally at [name of church removed] on Sunday evening, November 22nd, and found it to be very helpful, informative, stimulating and timely.”

This father went on to recommend that his children read some of the books written by the speakers.

At this point in time, all three books impress me as being coherent, credible, plausible, relevant, responsible, strategic and timely. I believe that they qualify as priority reading for serous Christian believers and church leaders who need and want to be alert to the crucial times in which we and our families are living.”

This letter reveals a common response and a common problem that I have seen all across America-lay leaders that are more Biblically grounded, discerning, and committed to Biblical truth than some of their own church staff.

The Worldview Weekend in Rockford was held at another location a few years ago and has consistently had a large attendance regardless of where it is held. Thus, if you live in or near Rockford please know we will return and have already secured a hotel ballroom for the November 2011 Worldview Weekend Rally in Rockford, IL.

Let me answer the question of our article. Is it negative and unbiblical to name false teachers?  The Bible is filled with examples of Jesus and others naming false teachers by name. For example, the Apostle Paul in 2 Timothy names numerous people by name.

2 Timothy 1:15: Phygellus and Hermogenes
2 Timothy 2:17: Mymenaeus and Philetus
2 Timothy 3:8: Jannes and Jambress
2 Timothy 4:10: Demas
2 Timothy 4:14: Alexander the coppersmith

In III John 9, John named Diotrephes.

Jesus called out the false teachers in Matthew 23 and Luke 11.

I truly believe that one reason why God allows false teachers is to provide believers with a test of whether they will be faithful in their Biblical mandate to expose false teachers and thus protect the sheep from the spiritual poison of wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Ephesians 5:11 makes it clear we are to expose false teachers; “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.”

If a shepherd/pastor will not point out the wolves that are among the sheep then this should be a clear warning to the flock that the shepherd/pastor does not have their best interest in mind. Such a hireling is not called of God but is simply involved in an occupation for personal gain as revealed in I Timothy 6:5.

In addition, such non-shepherds are revealing that they are more interested in their reputation and being seen by the larger community as tolerant and non-judgmental as defined by the unsaved world.

False teachers also give the sheep the opportunity to test the commitment of their shepherds/pastors. If the pastors/shepherds on your church staff fail this Biblical test then it is time for the leaders of the church to replace such hirelings with real shepherds. If this Biblical action is not taken, then it is time for you to find a new flock that has a shepherd that will alert the sheep to the spirituality immature and even wolves in sheep’s clothing that are on his own church staff.

Show me a shepherd/pastor that will not name false teachers and I will show you a false teacher.

Pastor Jim Bublitz gives further insight into the positive results that come when we name false teachers by name:

From those words it is clear that God allows teachers of error for the same reason as He does persecutors of His people: to test their love, to try their fidelity, to show that their loyalty to him is such that they will not give ear unto His enemies. Error has always been more popular than the Truth, for it lets down the bars and fosters fleshly indulgence, but for that very reason it is obnoxious to the godly.

The one who by grace can say “I have chosen the way of Truth” will be able to add “I have stuck unto Thy testimonies” (Psalm 119:30, 31), none being able to move him therefrom.

“For there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.” (1 Corinthians 11:19).

Committed Christians must publically name false teachers because it is impossible to privately correct public false teaching.

This fall I received an e-mail from a young lady that is a junior in high school near Atlanta, Georgia. In her e-mail she stated that because she had attended two Worldview Weekend Rallies in Atlanta and heard me expose the false teaching of emergent Pastor Rob Bell, she had been equipped to reject his false teaching when a Bible study group at her Christian school decided to read one of his books. She informed me that she immediately recognized the name of Rob Bell and remembered what I had spoken. This young lady had the courage and conviction to politely hand the book back to the group and to warn them of Bell’s false teaching.

This young ladies testimony has come to my mind many times this fall and has been a real source of encouragement to me to continue to speak truth no matter how negative or offensive it may be to the non-discerning.

If I had not named the name of Rob Bell, how would this student had known to reject his book and false doctrine? If I had not named the name of Rob Bell would this student now be spiritually deceived? If I had not named Rob Bell by name would she have been able to warn her peers to this spiritual poison?

The late Pastor Vance Havner wrote, “We live what we believe; the rest is religious talk.” Living what we believe includes our willingness to name the name of false teachers and to endure the criticism and persecution that will surely follow. To do any less would be treason to our calling, to our mandate, to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

When we expose false teaching and false teachers we are proclaiming and defending the authority, accuracy, and application of God’s Word; the very thing that false teachers seek to undermine.

Living what we believe requires speaking Biblical truth and Biblical warnings no matter how negative or offensive it may be to the spiritually immature, non-discerning or wolves that crept in among the sheep.

Jude 3:1-4 commands all believers to contend for the faith that is under attack from false teachers.

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Truth is never negative to those who seek to serve The Truth.


212 thoughts on “God Calling and Name Calling

  1. I think that Brannon Howse and John MacArhur are the heretics. Whom made THEM God. Who says that Brannon Howse is the “correct” man of God. Such an arrogant little man. He needs to find Jesus since his heart is so full of judgement and self rightiousness. REPENT BROTHER!!!!

  2. So Danny if we are not to judge, how are you doing it with impunity you squeezer?

    BRANNON HOWSE & JOHNNY MAC – KEEP NAMIN & SHAMIN THEM BROTHERS!!!

  3. I don’t think there is anything wrong with naming a false teacher as long as you can also explain why.

    The trouble is though, that the label is so black and white and all encompassing.

    Given that many teachers will be wrong about something, its possible that someone might be a false teacher in some ways and not in others. For example, many teachers teach we should tithe, which I regard as false teaching, but on other subjects could be teaching well. Particularly since this particular false teaching is taught in some churches that are quite conservative in their theology in other areas. (Not necessarily prosperity driven.) Having said that, there are teachers that teach a whole set of false teachings – they lend themselves to the label pretty easily.

  4. Is Allah the Father of Jesus? Or is Allah a false god the worship of whom will condemn people to hell?

    No one teacher is perfect, but eventually, if the imperfections increase, the net effect is that the ‘teacher’ ends up presenting a ‘gospel’ that cannot save because the ‘Jesus’ presented is not the Jesus that Paul preached or Peter preached or John preached.

    At that point, such teachers are false teachers.

    Naturally, I will answer the question I posed.

    Allah is not the God of the Bible. Islam and Biblical Christianity are mutually exclusive. Any teacher that says that Allah and the Father are one and the same is essentially saying one of two things:

    1) you can’t trust what the 4 gospels say about teh exclusivity of Jesus.

    and/or

    2) Jesus lied.

    So either the writers lied or Jesus lied. The Bible suddenly is untrustworthy and Jesus is untrustworthy and so Christianity falls apart. The only reason these false teachers can say what they say is because they have made the people biblical illiterates.

    I’ll give you one example of this:

    These so called teachers quote the odd verse at you as if that proves their point from the bible and then they leave it there.

    Here’s one: “I can do everything through Christ who strengthens me.”

    I have heard that quoted countless times and it always is taken to mean that Jesus builds us up as believers, makes us powerhouses that can achieve great things for God and is a promise for us.

  5. However, what is the context?

    Well its Paul making a statement about himself.

    He is talking about money.

    The context is: Paul is thanking the Philippians for the money they have sent him.

    In essence: “Thank you for the money. I didn’t need it. I was able to support myself. Though now I can spend all my time preaching the Gospel. Thank you.

    I have been in plenty and I have been in want but I have learned the secret of Godly contentment, I can do everything through Christ who strengthens me!”

    He was supporting himself by going back to his trade … tent-making. While doing that he met Priscilla and Aquila and they became really important in the early church. Isn’t God amazing?

    On top of that, Paul was the perfect Pharisee except for one problem. He coveted. He wanted things/money/property whatever. His problem was covetousness, and here he is saying “I have learned the secret of Godly Contentment!”

    Perhaps you would like to go away and read the letter to the Philippians now?

    Isn’t it more interesting to understand the context and get the real meaning?

    Is it a promise to us? Or is it a statement of where we need to be?

    Shalom

  6. I’m loving your posts CTruth. I’m not sure about that specific pastor plagiarising in that instance from different faiths. I would say that pastor is being deceived by the spirit of this age.

    The spirit of this age is ‘new age’ where we yes to all gods and no to labelling people. A liar is still a liar. The sexually immoral are still the sexually immoral. A deceitful pastor is a deceitful pastor.

    Take away those labels and you are living in an age of, ‘If it feels good and you think it’s right, do it’. The hyper-sensitivity is what is destroying the church and our community’s. It’s good to be sensitive and to sometimes tolerate hard people. This does not mean we should let them destroy us with their practicing immorality.

    You wont let a terrorist into a government building – but I know some Christian’s who give them the pulpit!

  7. BULL, Paul did not get the dues for himself but for the impoverished saints in Macedonia – of which Phillipi was a principle city. Paul NEVER ASKED MONEY FOR HIMSELF, only for others – study it out – and run the “tape” of Acts 20 over your leaders and see how they measure up.

    The Aramaic (the proto language from which Hebrew is derived and which was the scribal language of the Israelites) name for the Hebrew God is Allaha, but even dropping one letter changes a name. I asked one of my Jewish friends about this and he said, “Oh yes, we know this.”

    Paul not only supported himself but those with him “by working with his own hands (faith)”.

    1. And as Paul went out of Athens, he came to Corinth.
    2. And he found there a Jew whose name was Aquila, who was from Pontus, who at that time came from the country of Italy, him and Priscilla his wife, because Claudius Caesar had ordered all Jews to get out of Rome, and [Aquila] came to them.
    3. And since he shared their talent (was after their talent), he stayed with them and worked with them, as they were herders like them (In their art then they were herders or shepherds).

    So, what happened to the tents already? You hold to hard to the Hell-in-ized and King James (per)version.

    Interesting the comment about terrorists, given that the MIC and the CIA basically invented them for their own purpose – target training and frightening Americans.

    There are plenty of pastors types who use the pulpit like a pillbox and plink at the public.

    Run your doctrines past the Aramaic before you invest too much in them – the Judaizers have had a lot of practice at their craft – thousands of years in fact.

    0(:->)

  8. “No one teacher is perfect, but eventually, if the imperfections increase, the net effect is that the ‘teacher’ ends up presenting a ‘gospel’ that cannot save because the ‘Jesus’ presented is not the Jesus that Paul preached or Peter preached or John preached.

    At that point, such teachers are false teachers.” – Bull

    Agreed. Though I do think that God in His mercy allows two churches in one place at times – there is the official one which these teachers are running, and then there is the one which the Holy Spirit is running, where people are finding Jesus for real – at least to some extent – because they are encouraged to read their bibles, even if they are not told to question. And the Holy Spirit speaks to them as they do so, and as they pray in their genuine need.

    So we find people of real faith, even in places where the leadership have gone off the deep end. Many of us have rejected parts of what we were taught by those who we may now regard as false teachers, or heading in that direction. Yet we did know Christ back then, even if we were also under some misapprehensions which He has since worked on.

  9. By the way, I have never heard of Rob Bell but a cursory inspection of hwere he is coming from he sounds like a dude! I saw that one of his strident judges maintains that a woman cannot be ordained according to God’s word – what a load of bunkum!
    The Aramaic speaks quite clearly of the role of women in the church and of the obligations of husbands – but this is twisted in the Hell-en-ized perversions to excude them. Mysogynists mixture peddlars.

  10. Gee guys – i just looked up this Howse fella – is he for real? Do you ascribe to his teaching? I do like the fact that he advocates naming false prophets – so i will – Brannon Howse – you are most definitely a false prophet. And Ray, you should have stuck with your dad’s dummy (he was a ventriloquist) – it is more believable than Kirk Cameron – God bless him!

    Ray is a Christchurch boy…I knew him for a while in the Jesus Freak days. He had NO POWER. He used to harangue an open air preacher I knew (who was also way off base), and who cursed him to be an evangelist for the remainder of his life instead of a jumped up LITTLE smartass – it worked – kind of….

    When the Pharisees sought to trap Jesus at His own Word, they asked Him – which is the GREATEST commandment. He answered “Love the lord you God with all your being, and the second, which is just like it, love your (nearest) neighbour as your self.” The Pharisees commended Him – but was Jesus rewritng the commandments or were they spiritually illiterate?

    The second commandment is not to serve or create idols (like ventriloquist’s dummies). A ventriloquist puts his hand up the dummies ass and manipulates it to make it appear to talk – “Now Dummy, have you obeyed ALL God’s ommandments?”

    Jesus gave His disciples, and all who would be justifed by faith (and not by works, you jerks) ONE HOLY COMMANDMENT – that we should love one another, even as He FIRST – ORIGINALLY – FROM THE BEGINNING – A LAMB SLAIN FROM BEFORE THE WORLDS, loved us.

    The Law is for transgressions until the PROMISE has come, and since He has come, there is no more need of the Law. READ YOUR BOOK! You don’t even know it – you just think that you do. 0(:-})

  11. @Teddy evidently Ian is also a proponent of the bogus Aramaic Primacy theory (i.e. NT originally written in the Aramaic language not Greek) thats why he is constantly telling people to “run that by the Aramaic”

    talk about begging the most important qestions…. This crud is absolute lunatic fringe stuff (which Ian seems to like) and has absolutely no early manuscript support and is in no way accepted by credible textual critical scholarship – in that regard I am refering to guys like Bruce Metzger (professor at Princeton Theological Seminary and Bible who was a scholar of Greek, New Testament and Old Testament, and wrote prolifically on these subjects and is the world’s leading authority on New Testament manuscripts and on the Greek text of the New Testament) who thinks the theory is completely bogus….

  12. @ 5PS – since two people are now communicating privately via email, is Ian a “pseudonym” combination they put together just for fun (in a leg-pulling 🙂 sort of way)? It fits if you mix the two thought patterns – religious/flaky!

    Of course I jest! 🙂

  13. @ everyone – just to clarify, the above comment does
    NOT refer to RP but to two gentlemen who used to post here!

  14. No, she isn’t, she is a friend and though we don’t see eye to eye on everything , I value her input. Would love to have her “gift of diplomacy”

    I grew up as an only girl with five brothers so I find it hard to come across as gently as she does. Hard fought battles fighting to be heard in my childhood!

  15. There is quite a difference to “coming across gently” than acquiescing, ecouraging false teachers,and even being in lock step with them, providing a forum where they can go on unchecked, not bothering to correct but even subttlely coming against those who do – there is nothing – absolutely nothing commendable about that when there are souls at stake..

    Diplomacy is tool for politicians – to the wind with it – I despise political games being played with the oracles of God and the message of the Gospel which is our to proclaim – not to edit;

    There is such thing as absolute truth and people like RP – whilst tipping their hat to the idea, undermime it with their post modern epistomology – which is as antithetical and less spitirtual anthrax that any of Greg the Explorer’s; TVD’s; Ian Williams’ heresies

  16. @ 5PS – I can’t speak for others but I’m eternally grateful for another’s patience with me a few years ago when I was in the (unknowingly/ignorantly) Arminian camp. You think TVD and Ian are flaky (and they are), you would have had a field day with me! It’s embarrassing to remember who I lauded/defended/approved – never missed an episode of Benny Hinn, tried to pass on Joel Osteen “teachings”. Regularly checked the Elijah List had all Yonggi Cho’s book, Charles Capps, Kenneth Hagin…..have I ever been delivered!!!

    That’s why I constantly referred to FL as “the old me”, there is hope that the Lord will open their eyes and deliver them from false teaching/teachers – then again pigs may fly? 🙂

  17. Gee 5PS can be quite nasty, can’t she/he (there is neither male not female in the body of blog, it would seem).

    I had a friend of my son, a uni grad who is really a very bright boy, naturally speaking, try to convert me to the Hawkings God delusion camp. I told him you are way too late for me sonny, because once you ahve lain, defested and broken in the dust, and there is only One Way up, and that is Jesus, and it happens, as does so much else, then a man with an experiences is not goingf t6o be at the mersy of a man with arguemsnts. I don’t know what you just do not say that prayer I agreed to – examine it – it is flawless, lie some of my diamonds.

    OK, so here is a poser for you, are the scriptures, “For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh”, and “we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with the powers and principalites in the heavens” harmonizing? I know that knowledge puffs up, but guys and gals, has it ever occured to you, just maybe, you may actually be wrong? No, of course not, you could niot possibly be, could you…?

    Anyway, Hawkings is intelligent (?), erudite, educated – just liek those you admire and cleave to as they substantiate your own cherished delusions.

    Of course the Orthodoxy has a vested interest in preserving the supposed sanctity of the Geek, I mean Greek. But really, your insults are becoming anoisome pestilence, and I should stop right now lestyou chould stumble at my preaching – oh what the hell – I may as well bait you some more.

    Funny thing about you unbelievers, is that when one called of God comes to you and say, “You need to get yourself built up in the area of healing and be careful, someone close to you is inimical to you and your life is in danger, and be rejected, adn then 15 months later the poor schmo dies at the age of 40 in agony with an inoperable brain tumor….have you any idea how hard that is on someone, let alone the poor man who suffered such agonies because he rejected God’s help, even though he was an ordained minister with degrees in ancient greek, latin and theology and was ahell of a nice guy otherwise, to have to sit back and watch such suffering?

    Come on guys, I could explain the BIg Picture to you, if you had ears to hear, but I am going to sign off now. If you see Ray Comfort, say gidday for me. He probably won’t remember me, I was just some kid who was searching for God in all the wrong places – and he looks so effeminate too, don’t you think, and Kirk too? 0(:->)(((((((( sproing! I am OUT OF HERE!

    Bi for now, it is finished.

  18. Has he gone? Has he really, really gone? Is it safe to come out? Think he has spent too much time around crystals?

  19. Teddy,

    admittedly, since I found out how good Benny Hinn is with a light sabre I have been tempted to start tuning into “this is your day” again….

  20. Talk about “One Powerball and Im outta here!”

    Gonna miss you big guy – hears a parting song from one of my favorite false prophet artists:

  21. Teddy, Just purchased online at Koorong – “The Authority and Inspiration of the Scriptures” by the legendary Princeton Theologian B.B. Warfield – apparently it is one of the best and authoratative investigations of the subject…should be a good read

  22. You actually found something worthwhile at Koorong? They must be clearing their shelves to make way for the new Joel Osteen calendar, the latest offering from New Mystic John Crowder or the Daniel Plan from Rick Warren!!

  23. The Kindle store on my Ipad is selling some of his books for 99c, bargains come up all the time…”The Biblical Doctrine Of The Trinity”, “The Divine Messiah In The Old Testament”, “Studies In Theology” for $1.99.

  24. Teddy, when is your birthday? I would like to buy you Phil Pringle’s Promises Application…

    http://www.iapper.com/the-promises-reference/

    On a side note, where do you shop for Christian lit? I take it from your comment above you do not shop at Koorong. I was shocked to see some terrible books they have there a few months ago, I only make it there twice a year. A very Godly man I was talking to who worked there informed me they do filter what they sell, but even he did not agree with alot of the money driven/ prosperity stuff that is out there on the shelves at West Ryde…

  25. @ John Smith – My visits to Koorong are deliberately limited to a daughter’s need to find some children’s books/DVD’s, still small pickings. I buy my books mainly through Amazon E-Kindle now and read on my Ipad.

    The only official complaint I have EVER made was an email to Koorong about their stocking of John Crowder’s books – the response was “it’s what the pentecostals want”.

    And this is what they want?

  26. It is NOT as dire as you make out. There are some solid authors and books there, I bought Charismatic Chaos from there.

  27. Yes you’re right, I’m just being grumpy! Everytime I walk through the door there are piles of Joel Osteen, John Bevere, Rick Warren, Rick Joyner, Joyce Meyer etc right in your face.

    Head over to the quiet corner, where there are commentaries and good books but no “piles of encouragement” on tables. 🙂

    I bought 6 copies of Charismatic Chaos” there and gave 5 away hoping some seeds will spring up!

  28. Koorong is a business, not a church organisation that filters what it’s congregation accesses. It will stock any books that sell well to Christians of various kinds. I ordered my copy of ‘Beyond Tithing’ there, which opposes many other books you’d find in the same shop on the same subject.

    Still, I know what you mean, Teddy. If anything, a visit to Koorong is a good way to find out what is currently fashionable in the Christian universe. I do like that they have a cafe and kids play area.

  29. @ everyone – it is now a proven fact that lurkers are around, they “cannot look away”.

    Because I respect RP and her blog , I will keep certain comments here and not elsewhere. FL is the “old me”, and because he didn’t actually know the “old me”, he cannot prove that statement false.

    But, oh my goodness, do I recognise my old self in his theology to say the least!

  30. Being the repository of wisdom that it is, I may have start dong the “Reflection Room Quote of the Day” as opposed to week:

    “Those who have exaggerated claims of almost permanent drought could be said to be false prophets……” – The one and only FaceLepper (whose job description, inter alia, is defending false prophets)

    What was the penalty in Deuteronomy for giving a defective weather forecast against presuming to speak for God again???? 🙂

  31. To protect RP, I’ll comment here, but ask you to leave me out of your conversations on this site.

    You have shunted so many people off this site with your arrogance that you now have to resort to attacking another site, which you know to be basically peace-loving. What a team you are!

    To say I’m the old teddy is patronising and out of order. It’s like saying Wesley was the old Whitfield. Or Wesley was the old teddy. Wesley didn’t change to be like you, and I don’t expect to.

    You are so full of condescending pride you think we all have to be like you. That is the fault of Reformed thought. It is full of itself. It even faults or bends God’s Word to demonstrate its superiority.

    You are a McArthur disciple, through and through.

    I prefer Christ. And the New Man.

  32. Wow – that “old me” is being channelled all the time!

    I repeat, you didn’t know me before, so you are not in a position to doubt my claim.

  33. You don’t know me now, nor in the past, you’re just surmising, so you’re in no position to know anything.

    Leave me alone!

    Gosh, you must be so bored over here now that you’ve ejected everyone.

  34. ‘Channelled’? You? LOL

    You must still be very insecure in your beliefs to have to spend so much time trying to fight off the past!

  35. For providing theological arguments which Lance, now of Groupsects, and hence my sustained ban there, could not handle.

    Then, for being mistakenly accused of ‘threatening’ behaviour, albeit an error of judgement (in poor syntax, not intent) on my part, confessed with deep and profound apology.

    But really for being as assertive in my defence of truth as you are. Actually, you are far more aggressive, and get away with it somehow!

    But let’s end that conversation right there, because it will be less than productive.

  36. “Are we not all to test the prophets? If someone puts a prophecy out into the public Christian realm, then we as members of the church at large, should also test it, you would think.” Ravingpente

    Evidently the false prophet Mr Williams who just a day ago shared his false propecies with the world from your blog was the exception right – amazing…….

  37. @Just Dropping In – “Actually, you are far more aggressive, and get away with it somehow!”

    yeah but you are just a bit of a nob….

  38. FL, who, contrary to teddy’s claim, has neither channelled her old self, nor wishes to channel her new self.

    Best not to go there though!

  39. @ John Smith – Fl/JustDroppingIn has been banned over and over again, he uses all sorts of IP addresses to get around those bans.

    He is a C3 pastor who seems to have made it his mission to berate/persecute any ex-C3 people who have sincere, valid issues with their experience within the C3 movement.

    He is not welcome by Specks request.

  40. You just had to make it an issue, teddy, didn’t you. You have no forgiveness, no mercy, and no desire to let things go. You want to pull down and rip up.

    I’ve stayed away from here for a long time, but you continually claim I’m the ‘old’ you. I’m not, and I’m asking you to stop being so patronising.

    I’m asking you to let it go.

    ‘He is a C3 pastor who seems to have made it his mission to berate/persecute any ex-C3 people who have sincere, valid issues with their experience within the C3 movement.’

    That is a repulsive accusation which I absolutely and fervently refute.
    •••••••••••••••••••••••••

    Specks and Planks, you promised me security from these people. I’m asking you to step in and moderate where it is required.

  41. @ John Smith – as you can see, he is probably using another IP address to come here as JustDroppingIn.

    It’s his way of thumbing his nose at the ban – tries (unsucessfully) to be intimidating which earned him the well-deserved name “Cyberbully”.

  42. Specks&Planks,

    I’m leaving this conversation right here.

    You really need to deal with this situation, because it is very wrong. I smell a vendetta, and it is extremely stressful to have to put up with the kind of insults and accusations these people are prepared to put up on your site.

    I have been called foul names on your site when I have refrained from commenting here. When I ask for people to desist they increase the level of disgusting allegations.

    If that is the kind of site you want to run, that is your business, but it is thoroughly wrong.

  43. As to leaving it right here that’s fine with me.

    I hope you show RP the same respect by not using her blog to “whinge”. Your right of reply was thoroughly jeopardised by your deceitful way of getting around the bans set in place by Lance both here and over at Groupsects and by Specks, demonstrating a lack of respect to the blogs’ moderators.

    Being called a cyberbully is not “foul”, it is simply a recognition of behaviour well addressed on the internet by concerned people.

  44. Are you actually Christian, teddy?

    I’ve always thought you must be, but this personal vendetta you have is very far outside of anything Christian I know about.

    All I did was ask you to please stop being so patronising by saying I’m the ‘old’ you, as if there is something wrong with me now, but hopefully one day I’ll get it and be just like you are now. You’ve said it a great many times now, and I see it as condescending and prideful. All you had to do was say you’d let that go.

    There was no need for all of this regurgitated nonsense and name-calling.

    If you refuse to let it go, then I’ll just have to accept it, but there is no need for this nastiness on your part. No need at all.

  45. My comments stand and yes, regardless of what you believe of me, I fully acknowledge, as a sinner, my need of a Saviour and that he chose me in Him before the foundation of the world. Sovereign election.

    Your “reputation” as a blogger is the one that has been judged and found wanting. I’ve not been banned 55+ times. What more can I say?

  46. I’ve noticed you love to use strong comments like “personal vendetta” – don’t kid yourself, such blogging is not my scene. I only respond when pushed.

    The further we travel from our C3 experience, the more aware we’ve become of the blessing there is to be find ourselves amongst a community of believers who truly understand what it is to be followers of Christ.

    Who don’t see a need to squabble over tongues or prophesy or healing but simply walk out the giftings that the Lord has given each individually for the edification of the Body – and seeing His hand at work doing those things in truly wonderful ways.

    But that’s what reformed theology does for you!

  47. Fair enough, teddy. If you want to retain those harsh observations, I’ll live with it. You’re wrong, of course, but you have the right to be. If it’s not a vendetta, I’ll accept your word for it. But then I can only think you are exhibiting unnecessary provocation and hostility.

    ‘Judged and found wanting’?

    Erm. This is a fairly insignificant blog, not God.

    Judgement is relative to who is judging. Unless you are God, I’d say we are all judged by how we judge others. Or show mercy. Or forgive.

    I have always wished you well with your new community.

    All I asked for was a less condescending tone.

    ‘I only respond when pushed’. I think you have done your fair share of shoving. This plea was response to your patronising tone.

    You don’t have to demonstrate your faith to me. I have always considered you a believer, but there are things we do as believers which demonstrate Christlikeness.

  48. JDI this is gold, “FL, who, contrary to teddy’s claim, has neither channelled her old self, nor wishes to channel her new self.”

    Sounds like some levitation is in order teddy 😉

  49. JDI – I am very new here and carry no weight whatsoever, but your input, ideas and thoughts are always welcome with me. I don’t know any of the history, nor do I really want to, but I don’t think banning people is the answer.

    If, and I only say IF you are as they say, would it not be the Godly thing to welcome you and your banter in the hopes of perhaps influencing you???

    I really don’t see why you are not allowed an opinion, because whoever you are, you always put forth a good arguement (whether or not I agree is beside the point) but at least you back in your answers. And should we not weigh up everything according to the Word of God anyway, not idle opinion.

    So people, why don’t we lay of this person and so what if he is a C3 pastor having come back many times. Perhaps we should stick to the issue at hand, false teaching and not resort to personal attacks!

    my two bob worth anyway 🙂

  50. But again, I don’t know the history, but boy 55plus times being banned is quite a feat my friend. If you live in Sydney I might buy you a coffee for your efforts, haha!

  51. Thanks JS. I don’t think it will happen, but, importunity has its place…

    Luke 18
    18:1* ¶ Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart,
    2* saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man.
    3* “Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’
    4* “And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man,
    5* ‘yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’”
    6* Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said.
    7* “And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?
    8* “I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

  52. @ John – the history behind the banning is lengthy, but Specks is adminstrator and it’s his decision and not unfair.

    Being reformed is “anathema” to FL and he has little or no respect for godly men such as John Macarthur (he likes to throw that name back as an insult to any reformed thinking but then turn around and say he sells his books in their church store!!) Go figure?

    And if a person is ex-C3 – you better have a darn good reason! 🙂

  53. Teddy, it would help if you let go!

    ‘Being reformed is “anathema” to FL’

    Not true. I was reformed when I received Christ.

    I have an aversion the prospect of God purposing to send people to eternal torment before they are even conceived.

    John McArthur actually says many excellent things I would agree with, and I have his material in my collection. I don’t have to accept everything he says, and I have a problem with his overbearing, critical attitude towards Pentecostals and charismatics, and his cessationist teaching. The fact he is in our Bookstore doesn’t show anything but openness to other opinions. His books are next to Joan Meyer’s.

    I told you. You don’t know my theology or influences as well as you thought.

  54. “Not true. I was reformed when I received Christ.”

    What – a reformed smoker? heee hee!

    Fl you are so ignorant of reformed and biblical theology you would know it if it slapped you across the head for preaching pelagian heresy!!!

  55. FL – why did you defend false prophet Ian Williams?

    do you enjoy false prophecy?

    do you think Jesus regularly appears to Ian and tell him things?

    do you believe the original New Testament manuscripts were written wholly in Aramaic and not Greek rendering the translations of every single english translated bible ever printed substantially inaccurate?

  56. Argh, this is too much, tired of fighting and arguing on this forum… I am going to take a break from this place, see you all around. Cheers. JS.

  57. 5PS…’you are so ignorant of reformed and biblical theology’.

    This from someone who doesn’t know if the manifestations of the Spirit are for today.

    Are you zealous to prophesy, 5PS? Or ignorant of spirituals?

  58. TVD quote of the day

    “Having sat under Phil Pringle’s teaching for more than 20 years, I have heard him speak many prophecies that have come true, and many that have not. I ask you then, does this make him a “false prophet”, or simply one whose “flesh” gets in the way sometimes? I certainly don’t believe that the false prophets spoken of in the bible are earnest people those like PP who get it wrong occasionally, but rather “anti-Christs” whose sole aim is to destroy God’s Church and His children. Phil Pringle is therefore most definitely not a false prophet.”

  59. Its funny that TVD whose unbiblical estimations of genuine prophetic qualification presupposes his venerated Mr Pringle is an “earnest person” as opposed to an anti-christ. I have to laugh that a guy (Chris Rosebrough) who never heard of pringle and had no bias toward him reviewed just one of his shitty sermons could tell the fool was an anti-christ and a false prophet –

    You and other false propets and heretics like you are in for a big shock TVD….be assured of it

  60. 5PS, I’m not staying around for your slap-stick. I just wanted to address teddy really, since Specks must be away and unwittingly allowing you to continually harass people.

    I have never defended Ian. I just let his ramblings go through to the Keeper. I don’t have the time or inclination to read through it all, anyway. You’re wasting your time attacking him. I don’t have to waste mine.

    I think you’ve maliciously gone after him because you’re bored now that you’ve shunted everyone else off with your rudeness.

    You are a superior kind of chap, for sure. But mostly in doing better than anyone I’ve seen in taking this site off track. Congratulations!

  61. “You are a superior kind of chap, for sure. But mostly in doing better than anyone I’ve seen in taking this site off track. Congratulations!”

    Uhhh…I thought the site was dedicated to exposing your venerated apostate leader – that I do consider a waste of time because of it being so self evident….

    P.S. you never responded to my assertions re 1 Corinthians 14:2 – at least I know WHY I believe what I believe – which is something that could one day come in handy to a “pastor”…who thinks he has attained some “sage” status in the “spirituals” LOL! -I would say get cognisant with basic biblical themes first you lightweight

    In any event – I dont expect you are able to interact anymore on account of the “superior” argumentation 🙂

  62. Oh, I’d love to talk with you on your more reasonable and less objectionable level. I think you could have much to offer, but waste it on insults towards those you consider inferior under the guise of apologetic license!

    I’m sure we could enjoy a decent conversation, even if we don’t agree on everything, but, first off, I’m banned, and not likely to get a reprieve any time soon, so I have to ‘illegally’ enter, as you well know, and cop the ensuing effluent flack, and second, you don’t have a clue how to address anyone without self-elevating slander.

    By the way, I’m no lightweight. And you know it. That’s why you spend so much time and effort trying to entice me in.

  63. @ 5PS – no lightweight? That’s because graduates of Rhema College/Kenneth Hagin (those theological giants) have that special insight into the “spirituals” that ex-pentes/reformed are denied.

  64. 5PS: “Why were you originally banned from this site?”

    Because he is a lying, manipulative hypocrite. What makes it worse is that FL is a pastor. Observe FL’s comment above, which is a lie and hypocritic on his behalf:

    “You have shunted so many people off this site with your arrogance…”

    I never wanted to originally ban FL until Heretic did for threatening RP. FL pissed so many people on Signposts02 and made many leave because they found him arrogant and attacking. I don’t believe in banning people so I never did ban FL. It was Heretic that banned FL and I was upset with that decision but I agreed with Heretics act.

    FL went too far. He made Signposts02 all about himself. He was attacking people and played continual mind games. My good friend Zeppelin left because of him and I received many emails of people saying it’s either Facelift goes or they go. I would say that many people left Signposts02 because of Facelift’s presence being so bad on the blog.

    I thank God that Heretic made the move and not me. FL’s hypocrisy, lies, threats, mind-games and manipulation have been unbelievable. Having also over 100 alias’ from both Groupsects and Signposts02 AND the fact that he is now a C3 Pastor is highly disturbing. I really do question his sanity.

    FL: “Specks and Planks, you promised me security from these people. I’m asking you to step in and moderate where it is required.”

    I’ve always been telling you to go away and not comment on SP02. You came, you saw – you spoke. Idiot! Why do you come to Signposts02? To get offended? To comment so you can piss more people off and then get banned again? You obviously live off offense and love the idea of being a sick martyr-like pastoral facing a den full of wolves. Get your head checked and get out.

    In reminding me of making such a promise to you all I can do is ask people to back off from mentioning FL when he’s not present. I’ve mentioned before that I was having internet and computer problems. I was unaware until now what has been said about FL.

    It would be great if people could resist ‘attacking’ FL. If you think it is necessary you comment about him, do so with more informative views rather then using derogatory remarks.

  65. ‘Gifts of the Spirit were, and are, Christ’s sole weapons for setting up, extending, and maintaining his kingdom.

    It is inquired what power the Lord Christ did employ . . . erecting of that kingdom or church-state, which being promised of old, was called the world to come, or the newworld…. I say, it was these gifts of the Holy Ghost…. them it was, or in their exercise, that the Lord Christ erected His empire over the souls and consciences of men, destroying both the work and kingdom of the devil. It is true, it is the word of the gospel itself that is the rod of his strength which is sent out of Sion to erect and dispense his rule: but that hidden power which made the word effectual in the dispensation of it, consisted in these gifts of the Holy Ghost. By these gifts doth the Lord Christ demonstrate His power, and exercise His rule.

    One secret of the abundance of life enjoyed by the early church was that ‘all gospel administrations were in those days avowedly executed by virtue of spiritual gifts’.
    Without gifts, the church is a mere shadow of itself. The round of worship becomes sterile, for ‘gospel ordinances are found to be fruitless and unsatisfactory, without the attaining and exercising of gospel gifts’. The church falls into the ditch of formalism and the mire of superstition. Unconcern about gifts, writes Owen, was that whereby in all ages countenance was given unto apostasy and defection from the power and truth of the gospel. The names of spiritual things were still retained, but applied to outward forms and ceremonies, which thereby were substituted insensibly into their room, to the ruin of the gospel in the minds of men. As the neglect of internal saving grace, wherein the power of godliness doth consist, hath been the bane of Christian profession as to obedience . . . the neglect of these gifts hath been the ruin of the same profession as to worship and order, which hath thereon issued in fond superstitions.’

    J I Packer, John Owen and Spiritual Gifts

  66. FL should also be under probation under C3 Policy:

    “4 DISCIPLINE OF CHURCH LEADERS

    Areas that require discipline are sexual misconduct, doctrinal error, financial misconduct, violating overseers advice and violating the spirit and intent of the constitution or policy handbook.” – pg 7

    “7.1 … The maintenance of Christian City Church credentials is based on each individual holding credentials maintaining a sound lifestyle and doctrine, as set in the Movement’s Constitution and Doctrinal Basis.

    If the overseer finds questions relating to the individual Minister’s soundness in these areas, and the Minister does not receive acceptable correction, these matters shall be presented to the Regional Director.

    The Regional Director may then choose to place the Minister on probation for a set period. If there is no significant change in the Minister’s doctrine OR LIFESTYLE [emph. mine] after this period of time, then another C3I Overseer (can be chosen by the Minister in question) shall attempt, over a set period of time, to resolve the problems. If at the end of this period the problems remain unresolved, then the Regional Director shall have power, at the recommendation of the two Overseers, to remove the Minister’s credentials…” – pg 10

    I shall be publishing the 2007 Christian City Church International Policy Document in the next few weeks. It is unlikely to have changed much. It’s a great find.

  67. @Specs – I honestly think that says a lot more about Heretic than FL….

    There is no love loss between me and FL but I would much rather have him aboard than Heretic, who is just a complete post-modern emergent waster who couldnt meaningfully interact with a position opposed to his if his life depended on it.

    Its quite ok for him flap his gums about subjects he is overwhelmingly ignorant of and be a smart arse -but when he gets the same back him and wifey have a cry and pack up their emergent groupies and start another blog

    – I can prove this by 2 of the occasions I have attempted to engage him in dialogue – he knows it…

  68. True, the gifts are distributed throughout the body of Christ for the edifiaction of the church not the individual.

    There is hardly a gift operating today that hasn’t been abused by the pentecostal church, and turned inward and self-serving.

    Even teaching, as a gift, is probably the most abused gift that I see now. Just tune into any message at C3/Hillsong.

    And just because it’s appropriate at this point, here’s the latest offering from Brian Houston….

    “Momentum Attracts”

    http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2011/01/sarah-palin-battle-hymn.html

  69. Ian – I see you have met the micro managing “snip” “snip” blog nazi – its merely a symptom of a person who overemphasises their own importance and take themselves a little too seriously

  70. FL: I will answer your email when I have access to a PC not associated to me.

    I would like to clarify that I do love RP and Heretic very much. They are good friends and well-worded critics/cynics. Since they comment less on SP02 and comment more on ReflectionRooms, I too have noticed a change of atmosphere on SP02. I’ve wrestled if I’ve liked this feel.

    Something does need to be done and I am praying about it. I really feel the resentment and the slinging comments that this online community is facing. And I kind of see these issues being a foreshadowing of worse things to come in the greater church community, not just these blogs.

    I am meeting so many Christians not liking people in church like myself, 5PS or Teddy with extreme views. On the other hand I have met Christians who are not liking people in church like RP or Heretic because of supposed seeker-sensitive views (sorry for stereo-typing you here – you’re not really). Each one of us seem to represent a type of person in the global church. We are like unlikable stereotypical representative that clash with each other and consider to not be a brother in Christ, myself included.

    From Chirpy to MN. From Greg to Lance. From Wazza to MJ. From me to RavingPente. I believe it’s not a clash of personality but a clash of something else. I think that the power of the stereotype or a kind of idol has taken it’s toll on all of us in the church and we’re not seeing clearly the other people on the other side of the screen. You’d think we could enjoy each other’s differences or properly sort them out, rather then fight about them.

    This is what I’m praying about. How can we move forward in love? We all seem to have different motives, agendas and tolerance levels. I don’t believe in sensoring – RP does. As a result, these blogs are very different. I am trying to work this out. It’s really not easy.

    The whole reason why I took the position of moderator on Signposts02 was to keep it alive and not play a position of knowing all the answers or leading people to new grounds. It was originally a place that many could share their views, learn from each other and work out their salvation with God. This seems to have changed. I’ve always stressed to Teddy, Greg, Wazza and others to please post interesting articles that they stumble across so the focus isn’t always on the issues I wish to address.

    RP quite rightly said that if I keep a strong focus and tone on extreme articles and statements, I will attract those kinds of people. This is why I have always wanted other authors to post articles to dilute my extreme articles. But the split with RP and me so RP can start RR was a good thing and I believe it is of God.

    Now…

    For the sake of peace, I am tempted to start a new article so we can discuss the Signposts02 and Reflection Rooms community issues. I am not sure our differences can be resolved, but it will be worth a shot. I prefer to give hope and love a chance to reconcile differences. I am thinking of allowing FL to speak on this, then I will ban him again so he can only comment on RR. I will monitor the conversations (if I can) tightly.

    Please. No name calling. Please tell me if you’re keen to see this done. I don’t like having threads derailed like this.

  71. @ specks – what does set the tone here?

    I’m up early preparing an Australia day lunch for 6 pentecostals, 4 anglicans and 1 atheist. What brings us together? Mutual love and respect and the fact we really know one another.

    I was going through back emails last night and came across a private conversation between MN and myself. MN expressing concerns about my approach and me defending my position – it went well (I hope).

    What has become glaringly obvious though, the main problem seems to be a pentecostal became a (shock, horror!!) reformed Anglican!!! As if I set out to choose that course? I didn’t but am very grateful that it turned out that way.

    I’m also finding that people who started out in the Anglican church and arrive at the pentecostal movement then turn around and judge the Anglicans for not having the “Spirit”. As if that’s possible for a TRUE believer. All very interesting.

    Where FL is concerned I stand firm in my views, I have an absolute abhorrence of deceitful behaviour and from a pastor as well.

    With 22 years of pentecostal experience (also as C3 pastors/leaders a lot of that time) we feel qualified to hold his and C3 theology up to the light of God’s Word.

    Ian Williams – well, anyone giving him a “leave pass” has got to be joking – he’s a nutter! Enough said.

    Please do not align me with 5PS, apart from our reformed views, I do not agree with his approach and find it unkind, unloving and unworthy of what he holds dear. As I have said before, someone showed patience and love to me, by holding up the light of good reformed teaching without attacking me.

    @ 5PS – when you attack them, you are potentially attacking someone like me, simply wanting Truth with all sincerity.

    @ Specks – I have sent you lots of articles and I know you appreciate it, hope to see some more.

    Well, I must “gird my loins” and slaughter the sheep for the Webber. But coffee first…..have a blessed day.

  72. @Bull – in case of misunderstanding: my strewelpeter video above is horrible, yes, but it is a reference to ‘the snip, snip blog nazi’. I was brought up on the strewelpeter book (very black humour – some would say horror). So 5PS comment brought back nostalgic memories! I’ve still got a copy of the book somewhere at home.

  73. Re SP02/Reflection Room issues:

    There’s no issue from my perspective, as RR blog owner. RR is my own blog. I’ve been thinking of doing one for some time and I want to do some different things. It’s not a replacement or replica of SP02.

    I can moderate the environment there so that I or others can talk where we don’t have to experience ongoing abuse.

    I don’t welcome abusive people to my site, and will moderate them, which I made clear from the start.

    I have requested people there not to respond there to comments that are on SP02 as that is not the purpose of the blog.

  74. “I’m also finding that people who started out in the Anglican church and arrive at the pentecostal movement then turn around and judge the Anglicans for not having the “Spirit”.” – Teddy

    Yes, I noticed that as soon as I first arrived at C3 too. It’s what they are taught to believe and why they refer to ‘dead’ churches all the time. I never agreed with that and still don’t.

  75. “I don’t believe in sensoring – RP does” – Specks

    Just to clarify, Specks: The kind of ‘censoring’ I am doing is actually ‘moderation’ (which is common in the blogosphere), to prevent an abuse of the process of people expressing relevant opinions. Censoring prevents people expressing a forbidden opinion. Moderation protects the environment that allows them to do so. Here, FL is banned. This is a form of moderation.

  76. “…Yes, I noticed that as soon as I first arrived at C3 too…” – RP, to Teddy

    To clarify (again, sorry): by ‘that’, I meant a general attitude by Pente’s towards those from non-Pente churches. It’s not exclusive to ex-Anglicans. I was an ex-Anglican, but I did not believe that, and I knew others who did not (we did discuss it as leaders kept making the comments). In fact, it was because of having been in an Anglican church, and still having Anglican, Presbyterian and other traditional church friends, that was one of the reasons I could see and disagree with that attitude when it was around me at C3. That belief was extremely prevalent in those who had never attended a church other than a Pente one, and who had no in depth exposure to Christians of other backgrounds.

  77. First of all, the only reason I came back here this time was the continual unmoderated put downs and patronising remarks aimed at FL, who is unable to respond because he is banned. I asked, via RP’s for teddy to not be so condescending by suggesting I’m the ‘old’ her, which she repeats ad infinitum. She brought the argument here, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask her to desist. She won’t so that’s that!

    Secondly, and importantly. I have never, ever given out my vocation here, nor on any blog. EVER! Nor have I authorised any moderator to reveal it. EVER. I have never confirmed or denied the claim that I am a Pastor. EVER. Any information relevant to that claim has been put out by moderators, an abuse of trust, if so.

    The ONLY person that knows for certain, from me, what I do is Bull, and he has been discrete and respectful of my wishes. It wouldn’t be hard to guess what I do, but the claims made here are irrelevant to my comments.

    I have, many, many times said I comment as a private Australian citizen, not representing any group, church, movement, or other person. That should be respected, but has not been.

    I have given valid reasons for this to moderators, and that should have been respected.

    Thirdly, I have long since made accepted amends for any misunderstanding with RP and heretic in regard to to a perceived ‘threat’. I have given my word and assurance that there was none intended. EVER. It was purely a misunderstanding via clumsy syntax. That’s all. That whole issue is long gone, and, unless a person refuses to actually approach forgiveness and reparation outside of godly principles, it should never be raised again here or anywhere.

    Fourthly, I was saved through the ministry of a dear Anglican vicar. I love the Anglicans, and am forever thankful for their love and input into my family when we were saved. I have many friends in the Anglican Church, and would never consider a person to be inferior to be part of that church. The implication that I would fault someone for going over to the Anglicans from the Pentecostals is unfounded. I have always wished teddy well in her journey.

    On the other hand, there is a serious aversion here to Pentecostalism, C3, and Hillsong, and the leaders of those groups, which borders on hysteria at times, even though the claim is made that people here love people there. If true, it could be better expressed, then.

    Fifthly, if, as is suggested, I were a C3 minister, and an overseer requested I stop blogging here, of course, there would be no way I would refuse, so no discipline would be necessary.

    I ask this, though. Specks is a C3OF member. If I am under C3, then we share the same pastor. He attacks C3 & Phil Pringle. I support them. Specks claims I should be disciplined for standing against his attacks of my pastor. Who’s the hypocrite? And who is more likely to be reprimanded if anyone ever bothers to take the time to unravel this blog and actually bother to find out who we all are?

    Finally, for now, I have a usb mobile modem which automatically changes IP. It’s not illegal. Neither is it ‘evil’ to have more than on pseudonym. Just inconvenient for those who censure others. WordPress discourages banning, especially on this kind of site which critiques others. They believe in and encourage freedom of speech. Read their material on it. It’s free and accessible.

    RP is correct. Banning is the most extreme form of moderation and censorship. Her way is by far the most sensible, allowing for well defined processes. I have always championed this method. Making a person an outlaw, leaves them outside of your law.

    Whatever you may think of me, God forgave me of it when I last repented, which is often. That’s the power of the cross and the blood. Thank God for it.

    Love to you all!

  78. I’ll add my perspective.

    SP has always been a disparate, motley crew with a wide variety of opinions and backgrounds. For me this is a positive because hearing other viewpoints helps me with my own – no one knows everything or has everything right – far from it – so this is potentially very good….if we can remember what our common core is, even in having robust conversations over issues we might disagree with today.

    Specks I understand what you mean by each of us perhaps representing stereotypes, but we are also each individuals who are individually responsible for our thoughts, actions and words.

    I have bailed out of SP v.? on a few occasions over the years. Some have been because I needed to spend the time elsewhere, and couldn’t justify spending it here.

    On two occasions a hiatus has been because of particular straws breaking this camels back, and not seeing any value in continuing.

    Occasion 1 was FL a couple of years ago. I just couldn’t cope with from what my perspective was the total disregard of other’s viewpoints and failure to genuinely acknowledge the pain that their pentecostal church experiences had brought, and the failure in Christian love (and doctrine) that brought that about. I identify with the experience of people having been brought low by their church experience very strongly on the basis of the pain that my presbyterian and evangelical church (plural) experience brought to me in their respective latter years. Anyway it was not possible at that time to have a decent conversation with FL at that time – I couldn’t stand it – and I left.

    I came back 7 or 8 months after that because I sensed FL had moved ground a bit, was more sensitive to the experience of others, willing to acknowledge at least the fact that others have real and genuine concerns even if he still struggled to grasp it, and struggling to work through some these issues for his own sake – even if not to the satisfaction of others. I had had a break, and I missed the fellowship from a widely disparate group of believers.

    I have recently left because of – no way around this – the abuse received at the hand of 5PS.

    I won’t talk about you – I will talk to you – I have forgiven you calling me a turd and a liar amongst other things, but not forgotten. It is hard to forget when your posts remain to this day if not presently then never far away never far from the pejorative and abusive. I don’t see any signs of real change, with your ongoing provocations to others (not me I agree) cross blog. I don’t see any point in returning while that continues.

    I struggle with that on FL’s behalf too from other posters – I see nothing more than parties who strongly disagree with each other – won’t say anything more about that.

    The reflection room is a good place to go because it is possible to talk about stuff without having someone jump down my or others’ throat. Moderation is a necessary element. I may not be sure about some of it, but then I’m not putting my time and effort on the line as both RP and Specks have done for a long period of time – in that sense I support those who put up, and shut up myself. I support and respect it…in the case of tRR, RP is taking responsibility to ensure that we model “God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.”

    I am not unaware of my own faults here. I often write using ‘we’ which may be or perceived to be quite assuming. Sometimes that is fair, other times may be not. I am not as well read as most, but then reading is not my thing – I leave that to others. I prefer to rely on Scripture and the Spirit speaking – I know I would benefit from learning more about the Greek etc – but I trust God in this. I also think that generally individuals see some of their faults, but others see them better.

    Back to Speck’s concept of the stereotype. The thought I have been rolling around for sometime is about what draws me, what lifts me up in a blog like this, and what will keep me coming back in hope, even though at the moment things might be quite dark.

    Answer: it is – like it or not – that core which binds us – that is, people testifying about Jesus and what He has done for us – when free of doctrinal point scoring and spoken from the heart. All of the regulars here – Specks, RP, Bull, Greg, Teddy, Churchman, FL, Teddy, Heretic, Gandalf, MJ – a number of occasions have spoken to this, and it lifts me and others up. I have even heard 5PS do this on a couple of occasions, and yes 5PS you have lifted me up when you have spoken from the heart about what Jesus has done for you.

    The core to our fellowship is whether an individual declares with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, and has believed in their heart that God raised him from the dead, not whether a person declares with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, and has believed in their heart that God raised him from the dead and speaks in tongues, is reformed, circumcised, has a million buck in the bank, believes in the virgin birth, goes to church twice on Sundays.

    Many of us may hold some of these things very dear, and there may be genuine and robust disagreements. However we are told to look in different places and behave differently, hold to things which manifest differently.

    Is what we see in each other – even in those robust conversations – reflective of holding to the two greatest commandments? Do they show the fruit of the Spirit – love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control? Tick them off and make your own judgment.

    What about 1 John: We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Where do we sit here?

    Generally even the most extreme or nutty of those contributing – e.g. Ian W – have said things which are worth considering. Over time there have been only a couple of people who came on here who were flat out dangerous and so far from God that they shouldn’t be here – one a self styled very self aggrandising universalist prophet, and the guy from QLD now linked up to the Lakelands guy that Specks keeps track of.

    Sure by all means put up concerns about the nutty stuff. But shouldn’t mature Christians also be able to consider and talk about that which is worth considering – e.g. love your wife?

    I am always for robust conversation. But conversations that in their essence are full of pride, self aggrandisement, vitriol, and bile are not of the Jesus that lifts us up.

    Those conversations forget Christ. They forget that we are all sinners and in our natural states fallen short of the glory of God. They forget that apart from what Christ has done for us the wages of sin is death.

    This blog can serve a number of functions and purposes. But if the regulars here forget how Jesus would want us to deal with one another and outsiders including in those robust conversations where strong views about what is error are put, then it does not serve Him. It serves some else.

    For your consideration.

  79. Au Revoir!!….it’s been fun gang, but its just getting all a bit too emotional for my liking too – and I am just not having FUN ANYMORE!!!… So in closing, I make the following comments:

    As you may have gathered, I didn’t come here to make friends (how you actually do that with nameless, faceless people using pseudonyms – I don’t know) – I know I succeeded there! My online persona is ruse – its not me – I never seriously contemplated hanging around after I made my first comment about phil pringle sermons in general. Its easy for a Ravingpente or MN to condemn the guy behind 5PS to the flames of perdition because I don’t have enough ravingpente/MN-like spiritual fruit (which they both hypocritically did on a number of occasions) – I would rather be a 5PS than a Ravingpente who is “sugar and spice and all things nice” on the surface who seems take perverse enjoyment in plumbing the depths of heresy, false doctrine, and spiritual decay without once, and I mean “once” correcting people in error. It may just be a case of the blind leading the blind. Heresy and false teaching hurts people and it will ensure the unrepentant person wilfully and perpetually spreading it will stand under the wrath of God without the advocacy of Christ on the last day.

    I stumbled across the blog and I immediately perceived an emergent/Pentecostal coalition dominating things, with the likes of the passive-aggressive, control-freak, malevolent “Ravingpenty” (and the aptly named “Heretic”) leading the charge, and the brow-beating charismatic shit-heel MN, and the emergent formal heretic “Greg the Explorer” following close behind. Apart from the aforementioned, I have no animosity toward anyone. I don’t know about you, but I had fun!….(yes MN, I guess that means I take my apology back – you should have just shut up and left it alone like I did)

    Anyways, from the status-quo when I arrived, I suspect that the mentioned people were not used to having to give a properly theological or reasoned defence for their statements and opinions made in a public forum (and I emphasise “public”) – in MN’s and Heretic’s case, I suspect from their pathetic reactions (and subsequent retreat) to a bit of criticism, they have never been seriously challenged before. As you would all recall the wimpy, pathetic bugle “retreat” call – “I think you are spoiling fight” was coined by MN…Your damn right I was! – Just like FL – attack what someone loves and you had better duck or take another “hiatus”

    It seems a powerful weapon in these peoples armoury is the “private email” of course you all know I didn’t have the benefit of – nor would I use it when I can just say what I want to say to the person I have a problem with. I can only imagine how many “private emails” went between parties concerning you’re’s truly – from what has been said MN strikes me as the type who would be an avid user of the “private email”….

    RP – you have the audacity to say to Teddy that you are disturbed by the ignorance and unwarranted criticism promulgated by Charismatic churches about Reformed Christians and Churches – I consider you and post-modern hubby to be the worst ignorance perpetuators about Reformed folk who are typically assertive about what they believe and why they believe it (I refer to one galactically ignorant and intolerant comment made by “the” (definite article) Heretic about Sydney Anglicans and the Jensen’s – whom you, sir, are not are not even an on par with an emergent speck of poo on the bottom of their shoes). Remember, it was you RP that was threatening for a long to leave SP02 because of the “Calvinists” taking over – talk about manipulation. Of course this was a demonstration and posturing to everyone that it was either 5PS or you – not both……Sorry, but that is just immature and pathetic…I could see it was frustrating the crap out of you that Specks would not ban me for your sake… for this reason RP I put it to you that you are doing what you do for innocuous reasons such as “just trying to question traditions” as you would have all to believe, but you are pushing an agenda. Specks, RP “believes in censorship” for this reason.

    Specks “RP quite rightly said that if I keep a strong focus and tone on extreme articles and statements, I will attract those kinds of people. This is why I have always wanted other authors to post articles to dilute my extreme articles.” I don’t know what you people talk about behind closed doors but I’ll tell you something in the open. Ravingpente, regardless of the image she has of herself, IS an extreme person in religious sense and she has extreme views if by “extreme” we mean departing from orthodoxy….

    There is absolute truth. There is a definite and discernable, logical and defensible Christian Faith. There are definite and discernable propositional truth claims concerning the fallen estate of mankind and the plan of salvation which is found in the freedom of GOD ALONE and NOT MAN and graciously revealed to us in the INSPIRED Word of God. Accordingly, there are definite and discernable teachings from such propositional truth claims, without knowledge of; and faith invested in, the sinner will certainly perish under the wrath of God. By all means let Greg, Wazza, RP, Heretic et al, publish articles – but do not let them destroy simple Christian Faith with their post-modern neo-liberal apostate b/s and undermining of the oracles of God with their seeds of “Hath God really said”…. By all means let them speak – but don’t sit in silence because they control the forum – get banned, who cares – just speak truth back and run them off their own stupid blog if need be – who do they think they are!!!

    Of course the mandate is speak the truth in love – I failed at that with the whole 5PS thing – which I started as a bit of a laugh and which, I acknowledge has gone too far now, Im sorry for any offence I have caused to anyone, save the aforementioned people.

    Teddy, very sorry you feel that way…I’ll leave you to them……

    Write what you all want – I wont be checking back or responding

  80. 5PS – I did not condemn you to the flames of perdition – nor did anyone else.

    You’re right – I don’t exhibit the ‘fruit’ as I should – doesn’t mean the point is invalid.

    I have used private emails but don’t make a habit of it.

    Its up to others including you 5PS where you want to go, and what you want to do. That’s it from me. Out.

  81. Where you want to go and do – means all parties in general – I am not specifically referring to individuals

  82. 5PS… What an interesting and an intriguing character. Signposts02 is never the average Christian blog.

    Bye 5PS – thanks for your insights and humour. Didn’t really appreciate the incredible ruckus you’ve caused.

    But you’ve been. You’re done. Now moving on.
    Good luck with life.

    I’m sorry to anyone who thinks I have done a crap job in moderating Signposts02. I really don’t believe in banning people except under extreme circumstances. Truth sometimes needs to hurt for the right reasons, but I pray that no one was wounded unfairly by 5PS’s behaviour. I wasn’t.

    To those that are happy that 5PS is gone, you may as well start commenting again here. I have a feeling the feel of SP02 might change a bit now.

  83. Specks I’ll still stay out for a while.

    May be I shouldn’t have brought up previous issues, excepting I don’t think they went away anyway. Don’t know…my judgment probably isn’t that good about those things one way or the other.

    But I stand by my broad post above. Defending the faith doesn’t mean one has to be abusive – they don’t go hand in hand.

    Others including yourself need to figure out what you want SP02 to be.

    I wish 5PS well whether he stays or goes. But I will stay out for a while longer regardless. May be 5PS should start his own blog. He could call it Phinehas’ spear – see Num 25. That is not having a go at all. It is genuine.

    Cheers.

  84. specks: “Truth sometimes needs to hurt for the right reasons, but I pray that no one was wounded unfairly by 5PS’s behaviour. I wasn’t.”

    Um specks, are the saying that abuse is truth? Or perhaps that you need to abuse someone for them to hear you?

    I suggest the opposite is the case. Abusing people just stops them listening to you.

    Abuse certainly stops me listening. I have not read a thing 5ps wrote since the first abuse I read, at which point I knew the whole thing was pointless. No real discussion was going to happen there.

    @mn thanks for your words above, they really resonate for me. You are speaking for me too there.

  85. And now for a totally different and no doubt very silly viewpoint….

    5PS, I really liked reading your posts. I just think you didn’t realize how much people can get hurt via words on a blog from an internet persona. And that’s a pity because some have said that after being insulted they didn’t listen to you. If you ever come back, I promise to not be hurt or insulted by you no matter what you call me!

    @ Others,
    MN, I think your post a few back was brilliant. In every field adults know that people will have really diverse and sometimes totally opposing viewpoints. And it’s pretty well accepted that this will lead to factions, attacks, total separation and even hatred. What would happen in the world if people could say, “Those Christians all believe different things so I can’t really understand how they can claim to have the same Bible, same God, and be so different – BUT – what REALLY blows me away is that they just seem to love each other in spite of it and won’t let anything cause bad feelings”.

    Which just made me think. Jesus talked about everyone KNOWING that someone is a disciple because of the love. Does that mean what it seems to mean that even unspiritual, dead in sin, not interested in Christian things should even have the ability to look at us and judge whether we have love? Seems like it doesn’t it.

    And more @ others.

    We all talk about love. And we talk about it so much that we feel justified in not loving others because they are not loving enough …….. think about it.

    If 5PS is to be judged as a person because of what he says, and that his internet pronouncements coming from his internet persona are his true self and he is somehow spiritually deficient or immature – and this is a place of Christian fellowship … then maybe the ones who are super mature could by showing love and meekness in the way they respond 5PS might change.
    (if you are reading this, stop gagging 5P!)

    The hardest person to love and show humility is for some people is a person who intimidates you intellectually and who seems to be trying to humble you!

    So, as an outsider, in a word, I would say this.
    Be nicer to one another, and then be fantastic enough to be nice to the person who isn’t being nice, and read behind the insults to see if there is truth there that you could benefit from.

    My personal goal is to learn not to hurt anyone (and I probably did that to Ian Williams – but I didn’t mean to), but on the other hand, not get hurt and be open to truth.

    Specks needs to have an altar call and get everyone to say sorry and hold hands and hug and sing “Yes I love you with the love of the Lord……”

    Anyway, if a dozen people on a blog can’t get along, I don’t think there will be any reduction in new denominations and church splits soon.

    P.S. I kind of like all of you guys and look up to you as much more superior to me. Which probably isn’t saying much….

  86. By the way, I have no special thing I am looking for at this blog. I like keeping up with Christian news and I like seeing different Christian’s perspective. I totally understand how many of you have been hurt by different things though.

    But, I’m a newbie so if I have said anything out of line, feel free to heap insult on me, delete comments, or even ban me.

  87. “Um specks, are the saying that abuse is truth? Or perhaps that you need to abuse someone for them to hear you?”

    No. Truth can be shared in jest, mockery and down right rudeness. I don’t often like seeing truth used like this. But when people use truth like this when others don’t get it, truth may hurt in those moments. And when they finally hear, more pain is made. I had to go through truthpains when I woke up to the state of C3. Even you and RP would have done so and Teddy. In that moment of pain new truths have been revealed to even further our pain – but to set us even more free from the lies that use to bind us.

    Through 5PS’s comments I did learn a lot from him. I learnt a a bit of early church history and some early church heretics. I think he did have a go at me at the time. Rather then dismiss him like I often do a certain individual, his strong, harsh commentary towards me was right.

    Their is simply pain in truth. And when we don’t learn from truth, it can look as though it abuses us.

  88. @Specks – the pain is worth it where Truth is concerned. I certainly have no regrets.

    @5PS – if you do look back in, would like to know the “real” you. It’s lonely here for a reformed believer. I agree about the post-modern mind set – hate it when biblical truth is turned into a conversation (or did God really say that).

  89. One may be “aligned” with another by a high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture through the Reformed Faith – but with Reformed “Compatriots” like you Teddy, Who needs Catholics…. 🙂

  90. You all sound so much more mature in your faith than me. Have you done any formal religious study teddy?

  91. specks: “Their is simply pain in truth.”

    An opinion. Based on experience no doubt. But not one supported by scripture I.

    My opinion is that it is abuse that hurts. It is painful to find out that your church has lied to you for decades. But it is not the truth that is painful – it is the abuse.

    The truth shines a light on the abuse. You don’t abuse to shine a light. You don’t abuse to show up the abuse.

    The quote is “God is love” not “God is abuse”. 1Cor13:4-5 Love … is not rude (NIV). Abuse is never love. Never.

  92. @ heretic1 – do you think there has to come a time when we need to take personal responsibility? Sitting in a church for years and not taking God’s instruction seriously to test the spirits, be Berean etc – we can blame the pastor but did we have to stay?

    A point brought up in a message I was listening to the other day – we hear a lot ABOUT the gospel, we are just not HEARING the gospel any more.

  93. “do you think there has to come a time when we need to take personal responsibility?”

    I think I have to take responsibility for myself, yes. I can’t let others be responsible for me, no.

    But I can’t just judge people and blame the abused for being abused. Yes the lobster in the pot should realise that something is wrong but that is not the natural thing for a lobster to do.

    The abusers are usually good at what they do. They have bought a franchise that specialises in subtle but significant abuse. The franchise catches lobsters and cooks them and has a system built around this process. C3 told me the paster knows God better than me. Hillsong implies your own vision – what God is saying to you – is evil if it takes resources from the church’s vision. You, they say, cannot be trusted.

    The lobster pot club has been carefully set up. To reject it is to leave. You can’t take bits and leave others and still stay a member of the club. The clubs have rules and bucking the rules is a big deal so it is difficult to think for yourself. People often trust the organisation more than they trust themselves – they have been trained to,whatever the organisation is.

    So yes the responsibility is ultimately mine. But the scripture says that teachers that lead people astray would be better off drowned. If it were God’s point of view that the abused are the problem I don’t think he would rail at the dodgy teachers like this.

  94. I agree Heretic.

    God is concerned that the Shepherds are good shepherds. He really dislikes the bad ones. They get the blame for the sheep going astray.

    When it comes to bad teachers, the question is really one of degree.

    No one is perfect and no one has perfect theology. However once you determine that some teaching is bad, you then have to scrutinise all the teaching. At that point you discern whether a teacher is wrong on some things, wrong on most things or wrong on all things.

    How much bad teaching makes a teacher into a false teacher?

    Shalom

  95. I often allow bad teaching to slide when I see that they are genuinely focused on a Christ centered message. I have seen some lovely God-fearing ministers say some clumsy statements and say some accidental scriptures out of context. But they do love truth.

    I let it slide because I know they love God and His Truth. He will reveal it to them and doesn’t require me to be in their faces about it. There is a big difference to a minister open to truth when he teaches and one who is closed and unrepentant of their views.

  96. @specksandplanks (and other contributors!)- so when a minister uses scripture out of context do you take note of how he is using that verse/passage clumsily? e.g. overpersonalising a certain passage versus actually adding to or distorting christian doctrine?

  97. I also think there is a difference between a teacher who is a wolf – intentionally deceiving for their own gain, and someone who is teaching something that they sincerely believe is the truth and will benefit the listeners.

    e.g. I do not believe in tithing. But I know many very sincere people who know their bibles more than I do, who practice it and teach it. I think they are wrong. And I don’t mind saying so. But I would not call them “false teachers”. If people who teach things that we consider wrong are labelled false teachers, than we will all be calling each other false teachers. Which is kind of what the Christian internet world is like. No, that’s exactly what it has become.

  98. @ Churchman – depends how are they using the word “tithe”, cheerful giving? If they take the congregation back to Malachi as is sooooooo often done, they are either unscholarly in their approach to scripture or deliberately deceitful.

    “Church leaders are to be shepherds, not tycoons. Our people are sheep, not consumers.” 🙂

  99. @teddy

    “they are either unscholarly in their approach to scripture or deliberately deceitful.”

    You speak with such absolutes here teddy, as if you alone know the purposes of their hearts. There is third reason – they believe it to be the biblical truth. Many, many, many, many, many scholarly teachers believe it to be so. (disclaimer – I do not believe tithing to be relevant to NT believers)

  100. @ TVD – unscholarly is definitely more applicable. Deception? Most I know/knew I wouldn’t call deceitful.

    Believing something doesn’t make it biblical truth. The bible is not that complicated.

  101. From a Barna report on church/pastoral literacy….

    “In many ways, we are living in an age of theological anarchy,” says Barna. “The church is rotting from the inside out, crippled by abiblical theology.”[21] But what can church leaders do about this crisis?

    Experts who have addressed the crisis have suggested five solutions.

    First, church leaders need to be aware of the crisis. “Let’s acknowledge that we are in a state of spiritual anarchy,” says Barna.[22] Only by being alert to the problem can church leaders seriously address the problem. Sadly, Barna has reported a less than positive response by church leaders with whom he has shared his information.

    “When I first conveyed this message [about theological syncretism among church members], most church leaders smiled and shook their heads, rejecting the possibility that such silliness would occur on their watch.”[23]

    Second, pastors and church leaders need to evaluate what their people know and believe. Whether through personal interaction with the flock or through more formal means of evaluation such as doctrinal questionnaires, church leaders need to find out what their people know and believe. A questionnaire about the basics of Bible and theology given to the people would reveal important information. Churches need to ask questions such as, “Do you believe Jesus lived a sinless life?” or “Do you believe Satan is a real person?” It can no longer be assumed that the people in the pews “know the basics.” Many do not.

    The results of such questionnaires and personal contacts will reveal to church leaders where weaknesses in their congregations exist. These findings may also help identify people who reject or do not comprehend enough essential Christian doctrine in order to be a Christian. Fruitful evangelism, then, may result from such evaluations.

    Burge, who himself has created a simple 25-question test, believes such a method will give “unparalleled insight” to church leaders and will be helpful to the people. “It is like taking a treadmill test and then talking about your fitness plan,” he says.[24]

    Third, church leaders must use powerful ways to instruct their people in the truth. “It may well be, too, that to usher in an era of theological sanity we will have to adopt new approaches to educating people about God’s Word and new tools to facilitate growth,” says Barna. This includes a well-planned systematic approach to biblical truth.

    “Rather than giving people disjointed morsels of spiritual truth each week, we must have a systematic method of enabling people to buy into a biblical worldview that transforms their life.”[25]

    This systematic approach to teaching truth must start with the pulpit. In his book, Where Is Theology Going?, Millard Erickson notes that decreasing literacy among people has probably influenced many preachers in the direction of including less biblical content in their messages.[26] The opposite must become the case. The lack of biblical literacy today makes systematic Bible teaching from the pulpit even more necessary. Perhaps more pastors should emulate the Swiss Reformer Ulrich Zwingli who forsook the common preaching methods of his day to systematically teach the Bible verse-by-verse, chapter-by-chapter, and book-by-book, paying attention to the historical and grammatical contexts of the passages he was expounding.

    The time has also come for pastors and church leaders to address essential Christian doctrines from the pulpit. If Barna is correct that millions of people in Christian churches, even conservative evangelical churches, do not believe Jesus was sinless, then the time has also come for church leaders to address the doctrine of the person of Christ and other doctrines from the pulpits.”

    Just the tip of the iceberg.

  102. @Teddy – “Hate it when biblical truth is turned into a conversation (or did God really say that)”

    The question “Did God really say that?” is quite a valid and helpful one, if it is asked in the right spirit. In fact it is one of the questions that people on this blog are constantly asking, eg. “Did God really say that we are to tithe?” “Did God really say that women are not to speak in church?” “Did God really say that He would kill?” etc. etc.

    And a conversation is one of the best ways to expound and teach truth (any truth). That is why many university courses have tutorials, rather than just lecturing and giving out text-books.

    There is nothing wrong with having conversations or asking questions.

  103. @ wazza1 – I’m coming from that original question asked of Eve. “Did God really say that, that’s crept in to the church and foundational Truths are longer a given, though accepted for millennia by OT and NT believers. It’s an Emergent trend to the point of denying a literal heaven, hell, atonement etc etc.

  104. But purity-test questions such as “Do you believe Satan is a real person?” are not as simple as Barna seems to believe. It is quite possible that we are interpreting an idiom of Aramaic and Hebrew, as a literal person when it was never meant to be interpreted as such.

    “Satan” is used in the OT mainly as a general term for anyone who is an accuser or an adversary. The Jews generally do not believe in a particular spiritual being called “Satan”, something to consider for those how believe we should have a more Hebrew world-view.

    Even when he appears to be referred to as a person, this could still be an idiom. Eg. we can say something like “Mother Nature will seek payment on her debt”, without anyone really believing that we are referring to a real person.

    When Jesus said to Peter “Get thee behind me Satan”, obviously He did not think that Peter was actually the red guy with horns and a pitch-fork? No, he was using a similie or an idiom.

  105. The question on false teachers really boils down to whether the issues are primary or secondary.

    Pre-mid-post trib rapture questions are secondary.

    Is Jesus fully Human AND fully divine? This is a primary question.

    Is God powerless and not sovereign? Primary.

    Did Jesus die an atoning death for our sins? Primary.

    Tithing in the Church? Secondary.

    Compile your own list …

    Shalom

  106. Bull, you have raised good questions.

    When it comes to bad teachers, the question is really one of degree.

    No one is perfect and no one has perfect theology. However once you determine that some teaching is bad, you then have to scrutinise all the teaching. At that point you discern whether a teacher is wrong on some things, wrong on most things or wrong on all things.

    How much bad teaching makes a teacher into a false teacher?

    When I discovered that the teaching on tithing was bad, the effect for me was to then question many other principles they’d been teaching. If they hadn’t pushed tithing so hard, I don’t know if I would have started questioning the rest to such a degree. But to have a doctrine that has been preached to you year after year, week after week, and sometimes multiple times in one day, proved wrong when you seriously examine it, is pretty unsettling. There was a time when the church I went to didn’t preach on it – some years in fact. In fact the teaching generally over that time seemed good. But once the leadership changed, so did the teaching – a real deja vu experience for me, having left Phil Pringle’s church and that kind of teaching behind once already.

    When I left that teaching behind the first time, it was to find something with more substance, which I found in my next church. It wasn’t active rejection. The second time, when the new leadership began preaching on it, and our church culture began to change, I actually decided to sit down with my bible, various books, and the internet, and searched through every aspect of it I could. I ended up convinced 100% that the teaching on tithing that we’d been subjected to was a complete fallacy – and that it had not been that hard to find out. That led to other thread to pull on… When realising the extent of that lie, the obvious question was, what other lies had been taught in exactly the same way, that I had not questioned?

    So yes, I do think that for many of us, if we discover _for ourselves_ that something we have been taught is essential is actually a lie – the next step, questioning the rest of what we’ve been taught – is almost inevitable. Also, once we discover that we can question our previously unquestionable pastors, and actually come to the firm conclusion that they are wrong, they become a lot more human and fallible.

  107. In terms of when does a teacher become a ‘false teacher’ – that is a difficult one at times.

    I think that if you conclude they are wrong about the gospel, then you can conclude they are a false teacher.

    Obviously this is why we regard some of the prosperity teachers as false teachers – when they teach that Jesus is a vending machine, a recipe via words of faith and checklists of actions that if done correctly, will inevitably lead to a highly materially successful life – then I think we can regard them as false teachers. This is not the gospel.

    However, it is not always that simple.

    Some of these churches may have some great evangelistic services where they do preach a basic gospel where Christ died on the Cross, and where we are invited to repent and turn to Him, inviting Him in as Lord of our lives, our old self dying.

    But then they may twist the result: if we are truly dead to ourselves, they will say, we will put most of our time and energy into the things of God, which conveniently means the church organisation. Then we can get caught up in the belief that to be Christian is to do all kinds of religious things, and believe that despite being Christian, God will only approve of us if we also do all this stuff. Yet we are only approved via Christ. And we are not condemned in Him – yet in this environment we may start to condemn ourselves daily, for not doing something enough – whatever it is.

    So the gospel is twisted into some degree of legalism, though it might start out OK.

    This can happen in any church – not necessarily a prosperity driven one. There are different things to be legalistic about in different places.

    So again – at what point does the teaching of the gospel become false?

  108. But there are also times when it is easy to identify a false teacher.

    As many here have said, there are false teachers whose intentions are good – they don’t know any better. If they realise at some stage that what they have been teaching is wrong, then they may have to give up a lot, even their livelihood, to change.

    False teachers are condemned in the bible, but until they die on this earth, the Lord may still choose to bring them to a point where they turn around.

    I wonder if one of the reasons for so much false teaching is a lack of eldership in some churches – the congregation may be accountable up a hierarchical chain, but the senior leadership does not have to answer to their congregation in some of these places – only to other leaders of the same persuasion, in churches many miles away – even in other countries. No real eldership locally. Or eldership that is confined to making sure accounts are kept correctly etc, but not to ensuring that the bible is studied with care and that liberties with its interpretation are not run away with.

  109. @Teddy. I would say “unscholarly”. But there is also the fact of peer group pressure and conceding to the majority opinion of your peer group – and that’s something that exists in all kinds of groups.

    Meaning that if you are brought up in a “stream” of Christianity you naturally look up to those older and more esteemed. I would say that in the case of tithing for example, many Pastors just haven’t really looked into it deeply, because everyone around them teaches it the same way.

    Another example I always think about is the very pervasive feeling back in the 70`s and 80`s in not only pentecostal circles but evangelical circles that the rapture was just around the corner.

    To be fair, it’s really hard to have the courage to think for yourself and just search for the truth no matter what people around you say.

    So it’s not just a charismatic or mega church issue. But like I have said before – and I concur with TVDude – there are a lot of good people who teach tithing. I am more convinced than ever that it is not a NT requirement, but if I said that to some of my friends they’d fall over.

  110. @RP

    “if you conclude they are wrong about the gospel, then you can conclude they are a false teacher.”

    I don’t think it’s as clear as that. We cannot know the person’s heart, so we cannot know if their intent is to deceive and mislead. All we can conclude is they are teaching wrong doctrine. The “false teachers/prophets” mentioned in the scriptures all allude to the fact that the intent of the teacher/prophet is to deliberately deceive and mislead as pawn of the evil one. Knowing people like Phil and Brian personally, I can most certainly say that they are not setting out to deliberately mislead and deceive. Their doctrine may seem to some to be incorrect (or wrong, as you say) but that does not automatically make them “false teachers/prophets”.

  111. TVD- let’s say a christian preacher was inadvertently teaching wrong doctrine. We’re human and get it wrong sometimes after all!!!

    If they were shown clearly by another christian from the Bible how they were getting it wrong, would you consider them a false teacher if they then knowingly continued preaching that same doctrine?

  112. Joey: “So when a minister uses scripture out of context do you take note of how he is using that verse/passage clumsily? e.g. overpersonalising a certain passage versus actually adding to or distorting christian doctrine?”

    I take note. I also consider their age. Their position in authority. Their approachability.

    Some make mistakes and are clumsy by accident. I can let that slide. But if they are doing it out of laziness, motive or are constantly repeating error or mistakes I would address it if I could.

    Before I came to C3 I was someone who would do this to pastors. I’d approach gently asking questions and pointing out parts of the sermon I liked.

    ‘Did you think you went well? I loved your point here! How did the preparation go? Was this what you were meditating on all week? What an interesting revelation!’

    Once I’d established that I do not intend to be a truth Nazi, I’d let them know what I thought about their sermon. I would have always made sure to encourage them while I point out areas that could be corrected. I’d might even say, ‘What did you mean here?’ before I’d lead them to the correct interpretation. Doing it this way means they don’t feel threatened. It leaves them inspired to do even better next time and to make sure they know what they are teaching on.

    I am not quite sure how I managed to discern things wrong some time. There are times I know where a sermon is going which I know I will not like. I do see the personalization of scripture. Sometimes I do see the tickling and the accidental scripture twist. Sometimes they would say something I wouldn’t know what they just said, but something in me would go cold, weak or unsettled.

    At this point I’d ask God what it is that’s wrong and I’d get a verse in my head that would suddenly point out the error in their teaching. All of a sudden God is actively with me, teaching me His ways. These moments are always amazing. These moments always glorify him.

    But that was then.

    Because of my position at C3 in regards to SP02, I don’t dare approach. I still all their twisting and mangling of God’s Word and I grieve. But then God just gives me new scripture while they are speaking and I see these verses combat the majority of the things they say.

    So I often pull out my bible and rejoice when I see that what I am hearing from God is context and is in line with the truth of the gospel. I could be in hell and I’d be happy as long as God taught me the way he does in this toxic environment.

    At C3, I do consider their age, their position in authority and their approachability.

    Many of them are not approachable so instead I use SP02 as a way to correct and rebuke them publically. There is no way many have the heart to be corrected. The Pringles, the Kelseys, the Kubala’s, Saundercock, MacIntyre, Antcliff, Crabtree, Corrigan or guest speakers wont stand a chance to be corrected.

    The only two I see that might be approachable would be James Murray and Josh Kelsey. But those two are generally spot on when I hear them preach Sunday nights.

    I wouldn’t dare correct any leader at C3. Too much is at stake if I did because of what I do on SP02.

  113. “We cannot know the person’s heart, so we cannot know if their intent is to deceive and mislead. All we can conclude is they are teaching wrong doctrine.”

    TVD: https://signposts02.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/phil-pringle-unapologetic-towards-god/

    Before God TVD. BEFORE GOD Phil Pringle is willing to stand in heresy! That is what a heretic does. Pringle is a minister who has seared his conscience. This is why C3 is a gnostic cult. This article exposes his manipulative doctrines.

    “Knowing people like Phil and Brian personally, I can most certainly say that they are not setting out to deliberately mislead and deceive. Their doctrine may seem to some to be incorrect (or wrong, as you say) but that does not automatically make them “false teachers/prophets”.”

    Of course not. Their consciences are seared and can’t tell when they are lying or telling the truth. No one has been there to correct them. Those who have even accidentally deceived themselves can easily deceive others.

  114. let me find something that Pringle says in his book ‘Dead For Nothing’. In it, Pringle openly rejects what scholars say on a certain biblical passage for his own interpretation for it to mean money.

    That’s a rejection of truth!

    I’ll post it up tomorrow some time. It’s a few pages I think.

  115. @TVD – if someone is preaching a different Jesus than the one Paul preached, then we can be sure they are false teachers, without worrying about examining their heart or whatever.

    Muslims teach a different Jesus, Mormons teach a different Jesus, JW’s preach a different Jesus and even the New Age preach the “Christ Consciousness”.

    Sincerity doesn’t cut the mustard with Jesus. You are either right on Him, or you are not in the Kingdom.

    Shalom

  116. @ wazza2 – where I’m coming from re “did God really say that?” is well demonstrated on the attached emergent flow-chart….

  117. @Bull

    “if someone is preaching a different Jesus than the one Paul preached, then we can be sure they are false teachers, without worrying about examining their heart or whatever.”

    I agree with what you are saying. But that is not what I am saying. As unscriptural as many here would believe Pringle, Houston and Osteen et al to be, they don’t preach a different Jesus. They preach Him crucified and as the Son of God who takes away the sin of the world, through whom all men can be saved. For some reason though, their message of worldly success and prosperity makes people like S&P and teddy extremely angry. I agree that there is a disproportionate emphasis on this part of the gospel (notice I said “gospel, because it is scriptural by the way) but the way that the apologists around the world go on about it is, to be frank, quite bizarre. There are other things to get angry about in the body of Christ, and the prosperity message isn’t one of them. What about the Christian “mysticism” stuff that’s coming out of the US? Now, that’s something to get angry about. But teaching people that God, our loving Father, wants the best for His children and has provided everything we need in all sufficiency, for this lifetime, is both scriptural, and correct to teach.

  118. Joel Osteen, Brian Houston, Phil Pringle etc have made christianity into a modern day version of the “cargo cult”. God has become a divine “vending machine”.

    There is no commitment by these preachers to sound doctrine, people attending these churches are enticed by the prospect of “material gain”. With that as part of the foundational makeup of these churches (and there’s no denying that, these men are unapolgetic about it), how can they evangelise them to a true gospel – where is the life of self-sacrifice when they are encouraged to believe the promises of health and wealth?

    Simply a gross distortion of the gospel.

  119. Thanks specksandplanks for explaining your understanding of how to approach church leaders’ preaching. As for your current situation – WOW! I don’t know how you can stay in a church where you sound so dissatisfied in. Are you actually employed in a C3 church or “just” in ministry? By that I mean unpaid- not meaning to downplay your importance there!

  120. @Teddy

    “where is the life of self-sacrifice”

    Can you show me your take on what constitutes “self-sacrifice” Teddy?

  121. @ teddy “Joel Osteen, Brian Houston, Phil Pringle etc have made christianity into a modern day version of the “cargo cult”. God has become a divine “vending machine”.

    In that case, I’ll have ten million bucks, a swiss bank account, a rich millionaire boyfriend who is as hot as he is wise and a mansion to live in and no poverty in the world. Think it can be arranged?

  122. I can discuss my status further if you want through email Joey. Not on SP02. I will take a while to respond. I do not respond on my home PC. If you drop me an email at speck_and_planks@hotmail.com as a reminder, I will get back to you.

  123. @ John – look out for a low flying Hercules, and you need to mark out a rather large “X” for drop off.

  124. Joey: “I don’t know how you can stay in a church where you sound so dissatisfied in.”

    Like I said. I find great comfort in God. What ever doesn’t sit right, I go home and look into it. I learn so much and love Jesus more.

    Teddy: “God has become a divine “vending machine”.”

    It’s worse then that. I’d say they turned him into a condom vending machine. God is for their hedonistic pleasure. They screw the rest of the church and world for their gain. They teach you have to get God on you so you can get whatever you want for yourself at the expense of everyone else.

  125. @ TVD – where do you want to start?

    Matthew 16:24-27 ESV “Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.”

    Self-centredness has become a hallmark of modern Christianity, with the promotion, as John Macarthur insightly puts it, “the get without the give, the gain without the pain”

    It was C.S.Lewis who said “It’s easy to be enthusiastic about humanity with a capital H. Its a lot easier than loving individual men and women. Loving everybody in general is an excuse for loving nobody in particular”

    Self-sacrifice in any area of our lives isn’t easy, it’s mostly unappreciated, but in in the end, most fulfilling.

  126. I don’t think it’s as clear as that. We cannot know the person’s heart, so we cannot know if their intent is to deceive and mislead. All we can conclude is they are teaching wrong doctrine. The “false teachers/prophets” mentioned in the scriptures all allude to the fact that the intent of the teacher/prophet is to deliberately deceive and mislead as pawn of the evil one.

    – TVDude

    TVDude, I don’t like calling people false teachers or false prophets unless I think the label is pretty much unavoidable, because these are such damning terms. Just letting you know that I don’t take any pleasure in it.

    Unfortunately, its a bit hard to ignore the extent of some of the false teaching, even when it seems that these teachers are not out to intentionally deceive. Of course, labelling them does not make them very likely to listen to those that give them the label and so maybe hear another view from their own.

    I’m not sure that all the false teachers in the bible knew that is what they were doing either. Paul was certain, but these false teachers may also have been equally certain that their understanding was correct and not his. Sometimes they were definitely out to harm, but I am not sure that the bible says they were knowingly out to harm 100% of the time.

    Self interest is always a problem. A false teacher can think and appear to have all the best intentions, but they may have other motivations even though they don’t realise it themselves. For example, with tithing doctrine, and various versions of submission teachings, they have a very strong self interest in sustaining the status quo, and are likely to read only the things that support their view. This means they can go on believing that they mean well, and even that what they teach is helping people, rather than exploiting them.

    For example, the teacher that believes tithing and making offerings opens the window of heaven to solve the financial issues of his flock. He will actually believe that this exploitative teaching is helping his people.

    Yet it is still self interest that blinds him, as he selects only the interpretations that support his view to listen to, and blocks the rest out. This is going to be even more the case where he believes in only saying/listening to positive things. To be open to the truth in this case is frightening for him – he could lose his income and even his support network among other leaders, if he came to oppose that teaching. Essentially, he needs to trust in the Lord, to look after Him, rather than in a doctrine to support the function of what he does, if he is that far embedded in the system.

    So – sin (self interest) still blinds him.

    It is much easier for someone like myself to reject these doctrines as I have nothing to lose myself by doing it; I lose a large part of my church community, because I am no longer trusted by them, and am seen as rebellious, but I do not lose my source of income.

    At the same time, even where the teacher thinks they have the interests of their congregation at heart, really, self interest is likely to be blinding them. So their motives are not as pure as they seem, even if they are not knowingly out to deceive. They may still not really be seeking truth, but rather what works for them.

    Most of us do this to some extent. I can’t put myself on a pedestal over these people. It is very human. But it has to be acknowledged that it is not from the Lord.

  127. At the same time, TVDude, yes, imperfect teaching doesn’t make someone a false teacher. I think it is as Bull said; we need to search the scriptures for ourselves. If the teaching is largely false – a culture of false teaching – then I think we can say that false teaching holds sway. There is still hope for the false teacher though, if their heart is to be true to the Lord.

  128. @ specksandplanks -I don’t want to put you out by revealing personal info. What I said was intended as just a passing comment. If you are serving God by staying in that church so you know what they are “teaching” (and therefore can expose them) I definitely admire your devotion to Him. 🙂

    The main reason I was curious is because a while back I listened to an interesting discernment ministry USA radio show that addressed the topic of whether to stay in a difficult church or not. http://olivetreeviews.org/radio/mp3/index.php?page=6&rpp=16&so=Most Recent – dated July 3rd 2010, hour No.2.

  129. I agree that imperfect teaching does not make someone a false teacher. I wish to make that clear.

    Ignorance is often not deliberate to teachers and preachers of Gods Word.

    Mistakes can be made. Sometimes they need to be addressed straight away to the congregation rather then label the speaker as a false teacher.

  130. Hey Joey. Signposts02 was my outlet for a while until I remembered God say, to me ‘I am your outlet’. You have no idea how much I feel His security when I’ve heard the worst messages by Pringle and his vipers.

    This is who keeps me going and who has me deal with it.

    What’s been amazing through this process is that He has taught me how lonely grace truly He is. When we truly hang out with Him, we actually see how much people don’t want Him, including Christians.

    To feel alone with Him sometimes and to see the worst of Christians, only makes you feel close to Him. I’ll never forget the day that I got upset with C3 to God. I felt Him say, ‘Now you know how I feel’. The most humbling revelation I was told is that grace is lonely. It is and that’s what makes grace suddenly worthwhile when you are alone with your Creator. It becomes a privelege.

    In that moment He spoke to me, I stopped and actually felt Jesus’ humanity and grief over Christians that didn’t want Him but wanted wealth and health. I’ve had some very memorable moments God in this loneliness. It’s a place many Christians fear to go. At least I know what Paul means that in my weakness God’s my strength. These moments assured me I was in the right place at the right time.

    I believe that C3 can be restored. I want to see Pringle repent, step down for a season and come back as a new man. He needs to be filled with the Spirit, preach the gospel and return to teaching the bible. I simply believe my ‘loyalty’ is tested. I will keep being loud, strong and offensive til something happens since C3 is not open to correction privately or publically. So I am taking extreme measures.

    If C3 ever changes, I will happily remove a lot of my articles and strong titles. I really hope they regret what they have done but return to Jesus for forgiveness.

  131. @ Specks – I was reading an article on a blog today and came across…

    “My sense is that God is at work reviving the church in allowing the highly dysfunctional church culture that currently predominates church life to be crushed under the weight of it’s own demands. It is no longer life-giving. It no longer speaks of the grace of Christ. It doesn’t set people free to be all that God is calling them to be. It constantly demands to be fed and supported by the resources and lives of the people. This is precisely the opposite of what God intends!”

    This from a local pastor.

  132. Interesting read! Now that’s worth posting.
    I’ll do so tomorrow as I’ve just posted a new article in relation to this one.

  133. Specks – Faithworks (news.com.au blog) was my outlet for years since I moved from Melbourne 2007. It became an online church to me since I didn’t want to attend any physical church during my major bout of depression (big city girl in a remote mining town -bad move).

    In the past year I had several very negative comments and discussions for bringing up difficult christian topics and giving politically incorrect discernment minstries links. I also experienced rejection from a particular person for giving her a clear explanation of why a certain self-proclaimed prophet was so wrong. In my case I decided not to contribute any longer as I felt I had done as much as I possibly could. In your case it sounds like it is great you are able (and willing!) to stick around your C3 church.

    What pained me was that I saw and read about many christians who only want God if they can feel Him or have special revelations and visions. I was sucked into that in a very major way so having come out the other side I tried to warn other christians about falling into that error. I showed why we should ALWAYS put the Bible first and reject anything that contradicts it. Each time I mentioned that I was completely rejected and criticized.

  134. @ teddy “@ John – look out for a low flying Hercules, and you need to mark out a rather large “X” for drop off.”

    Haha, too funny.

  135. @RP

    “A false teacher can think and appear to have all the best intentions, but they may have other motivations even though they don’t realise it themselves.”

    This kind of statement, and I really try to say this with the utmost respect to you RP, smacks of such incredible arrogance! Who are you to say this kind of thing (and please, I am not using the old “I am a pastor and you’re not” argument)? I ask again – do you know their thoughts? Do you know their intentions? You are placing yourself above these people and speaking as if you know better than them. Let me ask you, do you live your life with entirely pure motivations? You believe (as do I) that tithing is not a requirement under God’s grace. How do you tell people about this? Is your intent purely to help people get out of the bondage of the tithe message, or are you also, in some small way, trying to “stick it” to those who teach tithing as a scriptural fact? Coz, if you do, that would place you under the same category as the “false teachers” you mentioned above. I believe the motivations of many posters here is the same. Their intent I believe is to harm or hurt or uncover wrongdoings in the church, placing themselves in judgement above it. Using your “logic” then, they are false teachers too. I have myself been labelled a false teacher by these people, without one of them knowing me, my heart, my intent, or having even heard me preach. They have no idea of the condition of my heart, they haven’t even asked me what I believe regarding certain doctrine, they have simply made things up about me. Their labelling is based purely upon their own beliefs, as if their beliefs trumps anyone who disagrees with them.

    You see, following the “logic” shown here in this thread, I could quite easily consider John Calvin to be a false teacher. I can prove from my study of scripture that his teaching on limited atonement is completely wrong, and his teaching on God’s sovereignty is wrong, ergo, he is a false teacher. BUT, I don’t label him that, because even though I believe he has interpreted scripture incorrectly, I have no right to label him a false teacher because I don’t know the intent of his heart and his motivation for teaching these erroneous doctrines. Perhaps his intent was to mislead believers and draw them away from scriptural truth. Perhaps his intent was to start his own movement and grow rich from it. I don’t know, therefore I reserve any and all judgement against him and all him a great man.

  136. @ specks “I will keep being loud, strong and offensive til something happens since C3 is not open to correction privately or publically. So I am taking extreme measures”

    Can you explain this further please, it makes no sense?

    1) You are hardly being loud if you are in fact so paranoid you don’t answer emails at all (I sent you one ages ago and you never replied,) And have to keep your identity a secret.

    2) I am sorry but I have no respect for you if you are saying one thing here and then still attending C3. That is like being part of (an example) The Mormon religion and staying there just to save your family, it makes no sense, nor is it Biblical. Silence equals compliance. Even though you are speaking out here, you are hardly standing up for what you believe by taking a stand and a) going to see your pastor and b) leaving if there is no change.

    3) So as far as I am concerned, you are a complete hypocrite.

    4) At least have the courage of conviction to stand up and be counted and let it be known what you believe from a Biblical stand point to the appropriate c3 leader above, rather than bitching and carrying on in a forum like this.

    5) Your words are so cheapened by your complete double standards. Is anyone else with me? If not, that is fine, I stand by what I say and what I have done.

    I am sorry if these words seem harsh, but I am tired of your complete double standards and often bitter and twisted comments on this forum.

    Thank you.

  137. Sorry to post again, but to answer the question I am sure will be asked, I am only referring to Christian teachers in my posts, not those associated with Mormonism, Jehovahs Witnesses and any other “Christian” cults.

  138. TVD, does not C3, hillsong etc stand for a “Christian Cult?” It is hardly Biblical all the stuff they are peddling about WOF/ prosperity etc, etc, etc.

  139. @John Smith

    I support you in what you say regarding S&P, although I do think your language was a little strong. But don’t worry about it, S&P is a big boy! I have also challenged S&P before about this, as has FL. I have had some email contact with S&P, but unfortunately even though he knows who I am, and apparently we knew each other at C3, he hasn’t divulged his identity to me either and never replied back. But that’s ok. I have no problem with that. Although I do run through my mind sometimes wondering who he could possibly be!

    I agree, it is a little difficult to understand why he stays at C3, but I do understand his reluctance to identify himself (actually, I don’t even know whether he is a he! He could be a she for all I know!) . I would never divulge to anyone at C3 who he is if he were to tell me who he is, but I guess the fear of being “uncovered”, so to speak is greater. I understand nonetheless.

    Having said all that, you are right in your assessment John.

  140. I do answer your emails. It looks like Teddy didn’t get back to you.

    And now to answer your idiocy you raised in point 2:

    The case was, before I came onto Signposts, people had opinions on C3OF but weren’t attending there. As a result, certain commenters were mocked and boo’d by certain Christians for not being members of C3 church.

    That’s when I piped in. RP left and I started running SP02. So I speak what is happening there publically – as a witness. To those at CGroups and those on the fringe, I do minister to them the Spirit and Truth of God. Their eyes open and they leave C3 for a more biblical and spirit-filled church.

    I cannot reveal my identity. And I find it amusing that C3 leaders are rebuking random people for being me! You should see some of the emails I get. This is why I can’t reveal who I am.

    This is why I don’t, unfortunately, have more theological posts. I have to refrain my thoughts and beliefs on here as I do at C3. I am also weary of what SnakeLift is doing behind the scenes. Because I actually am exposing stuff that is said and done there, you can see why they want to expose me.

    They are enemies of the cross and that’s the way they want to be. Change is happening. Many youth and middle-aged members are starting to question Pringle. I with other members that range from connect group leaders to present leader have seen a shift in many people there. I am excited about this.

    Change is happening. I care and you don’t. That’s the difference hear. I care about C3 which is why I still go. I ca see why you think I am someone of double standard. I’ll give you that.

  141. “I ask again – do you know their thoughts? Do you know their intentions? ”

    No, I don’t claim to know anyone’s thoughts or intentions. It is just true that all of us can think we have good intentions, or tell ourselves we do, but be blinded by self interest.

    It’s so human that I doubt any of us are immune to it.

    What is wrong with calling someone a false teacher because their doctrines (plural) are wrong to the extent that the culture they produce is based mostly on the false teaching?

    “Let me ask you, do you live your life with entirely pure motivations? ” – TVDude

    No. As I said, no one does. Only Christ succeeded.

    “I believe the motivations of many posters here is the same. Their intent I believe is to harm or hurt or uncover wrongdoings in the church, placing themselves in judgement above it. Using your “logic” then, they are false teachers too.” – TVDude

    Maybe you are right. But we are instructed to at least attempt to discern correct teaching. In the churches that are criticised here, there is usually no place within them where criticism may be heard. There is often not even an eldership, or where there is, they are frequently chosen by the senior pastor. Some are not even responsible to answer to their own church – they answer to ‘apostles’ or other leaders far away, even in other countries. It is then up to ordinary believers to do what we can. Imperfect as it is; as tiny a dot in cyberspace as it is.

    “Their intent I believe is to harm or hurt or uncover wrongdoings in the church, placing themselves in judgement above it.” – TVDude

    Firstly, no one who regularly comments here wishes to harm. Some here would say that if they could pull these churches down, they would be doing great good. For myself, I don’t believe attempting to pull them down is necessary – they are given over to what they want in any case, and will reap the results over time.

    Secondly, yes, many people here do want expose wrongdoings in the church. I personally want to say very clearly that I believe certain doctrines are wrong, and are in fact harmful and exploitative. Plus, I want to say that they are unnecessary for the Christian life. For that reason, I write about them.

    It is helpful for anyone coming out of that kind of environment to know that they are not alone. In a culture where questioning the judgement of leadership is done in whispers only, because of fear it is sin, they will often be unable to talk about these things in their own environment. These places on the internet allow this stuff to take place.

    As for judgement: there are different kinds of judgement. Discerning truth is one kind. We are all to learn to do this, so that we don’t get blown around in whatever direction the latest thing we hear comes from. Condemning someone to hell is another kind. This I will not do, and do not with the false teachers either. This is the Lord’s prerogative, and for us to do it, presumes too far.

    In terms of discerning truth – we do need to remain humble ourselves. I am not sure that the attitude that only listens in an upward direction, exhibited by the leaders in many of these places, is that humble. (We being ordinary believers are in the downward direction, and won’t even make it onto the radar of the awareness of these people in real life. I certainly won’t anyway. For all I know, others here are more significant in their churches.)

    Now you may be able to teach me something here, and hopefully other regulars here can advise me as well. Does someone’s motivation determine whether they are a false teacher or not? Is it the motivation, or is it the extent of the false teaching that is the issue?

    When I look at a false teacher, I tend to look at what they are teaching, and not just one teaching, but the set. Even a false teacher may sometimes teach some truth.

    Am I trying to ‘stick it’ to those who teach tithing? No, actually. I think if you go through everything I have ever written, you won’t find personal remarks ‘sticking it’ to these teachers. I am trying to say that that particular doctrine is wrong and does not stand up to scrutiny. That’s all. I hope others realise, and are freed from the bondage. I believe I am motivated by the pain I’ve seen others go through, which I do not share here, because those stories don’t belong to me.

    If the category ‘false teacher’ is regarded as ‘sticking it’ to anyone, then understand that I don’t condemn the teacher to hell; my opinion is extremely unimportant to them anyway; and I don’t hold myself above them. But you can believe otherwise if you choose, and go for it. I realise that comments like that do upset people and make them very uncomfortable, especially when it concerns someone they love. But I don’t really know how to say they are not ‘false teachers’ when things get to a certain point.

    There is also a middle ground where I’m not sure. You have to see enough and confirm you’ve understood correctly, and check your own understanding.

  142. “So I speak what is happening there publically – as a witness. ”

    Where in the Bible does it say to stay silent, conceal your identity and protest in secret? You must be reading a different Bible to me.

    I thought we were meant to expose false prophets and the wolves in sheeps clothing, but clearly you are not doing that, I stand by my earlier (strong remarks) that you are a hypocrite.

  143. Are you calling FL an enemy of the cross? Why call him a snake? Since you are hidden so well how can you claim to be persecuted? Who would know? Where are the marks? How can a silent number be touched?

  144. S and P ” I care and you don’t. That’s the difference hear. I care about C3 which is why I still go. ”

    Yet another wild assumption. I care enough to speak the truth in love as I did and fear God more than man or anything else. So for you to boldly declare that I don’t care is rather rich don’t you think.

    On a side note, check your spelling and grammar next time, people might take you more seriously. How can you be raving on about holding back on theological debate when you can’t even get “hear/ here” in the correct context.

    Sorry again if this is harsh, but I have had enough of your rubbish, pretending you are the saviour of C3. God will build His church, with or without man, you are fooling yourself if you think you are making a difference, without further being indoctrinated there

  145. John Smith, you have spoken very foolishly.

    It is totally inconsequential that S&P interchanges hear with here. Anybody who can touch-type and has been blogging for any length of time will attest to the fact that when a blogger gets tired, the blogger starts typing words out as they sound. For example, I might type, “Their is no way that this is possible.” Errors like these are rare but they do occur sometimes. They are irrelevant.

    S&P is quite at liberty to remain anonymoous. There is nothing hypocritical about this and nothing in the Bible that prohibits S&P from remaining anonymous. In fact, remaining anonymous is allowing S&P to be very effective. If he or she did not remain anonymous, he or she could not achieve his or her objectives because he or she would be thrown out of C3.

    John Smith, I think that you have no idea what C3 is about. I attended there myself for several years. There are tens and tens and tens of thousands of words that could be written about what is wrong with Pringle’s teaching and about the way that he uses his leadership to twist the Scriptures and manipulate the congregation from the pulpit.

    I think you have no idea how much many of us have suffered there as sincere believers. We have been used and abused.

    What a joke that you say:

    “God will build His church, with or without man,…”

    Without man, there is no church. Without decent leadership, the church goes down the plughole which is why C3 is a disaster zone and which is why the Anglican church is a disaster zone, led by old men who have proved themselves to be ineffective in causing the church to thrive but hang on to their jobs anyway in the arrogant belief that there is nobody else who can do the job better. They are a disgrace and their heresies and the lies they embrace are disgraceful.

  146. @Chirpy – agree about spelling “misteaks” unless you do battle with an Ipad that wants to do your spelling for you.

    As an member of an Anglican church with a young minister who is very effective and faithful to preaching carefully and faithfully through the bible, can’t agree there.

    Who are the “disgrace with the heresies and lies”? The Anglicans or C3?

  147. Evolution. And don’t you dare tell me that it doesn’t. I’ve been following the Anglican church for twenty years and have attended for seven of those.

  148. teddy, I understand what you’re saying. However it is the people at the top that count. The Anglican church is led by senior people who do not refute the lies inherent in the theory of evolution. They have allowed the church to slip off its foundations through neglect and intellectual pride. The positive signs you speak of in your church are symptomatic of the recovery of the Anglican church which has only really commenced in the last couple of years. A major reason why the Anglican church is now recovering is that Archbishop Jensen, who is an ineffective leader, now has lame-duck status due to the $160 million lost during the GFC. This has allowed the church to grow in a more positive direction away from the stranglehold of his leadership which led the church into decay.

  149. CHIRPY- John Smith, I think that you have no idea what C3 is about. I attended there myself for several years. There are tens and tens and tens of thousands of words that could be written about what is wrong with Pringle’s teaching and about the way that he uses his leadership to twist the Scriptures and manipulate the congregation from the pulpit.

    What makes you say I have no idea about C3? I am not supporting the false teaching for a second, merely calling S and P out for being a hypocrite, remaining there and living a double life here.

  150. Though I don’t see myself as a prophet JS, I did observe that some old testament prophets did conceal their identities on two occasions to fulfill Godly tasks.

    One was a prophet to a king. Another was a prophet to another prophet. I think they were in Chronicles. They were obedient but chose to play it carefully. Similarly, I guess to Jesus saying, ‘be as cunning as serpents but innocent as doves’.

    Did you here me that time JS? 😀

  151. “A major reason why the Anglican church is now recovering is that Archbishop Jensen, who is an ineffective leader, now has lame-duck status due to the $160 million lost during the GFC. ” – Chirpy

    I disagree with the Jensen’s way of dealing with a few things, but, I am very surprised to hear anyone saying that they are ineffective leaders. They look to me like highly effective leaders. It is due to their leadership that the Anglican church in Sydney has acquired such a strong identity and is growing much as the Pente churches have grown.

    I’ve been following Archbishop Jensen’s comments re the GFC losses with interest.

  152. RP I agree with you totally, 100%. I don’t agree with everything from Jenson, but I think he has been a good leader, so where chirpy pulled that from I have no idea.

    Yes S and P I heard you 🙂

  153. John Smith, you need to wake up. People who lead the church are representatives on earth of Jesus Christ. They are representatives of the gospel and are responsible for proclaiming its truth. If they are doing their job properly, it is not possible that the church will wither and diminish. Yet that is exactly what happened to the Sydney Anglican church from 2003 to 2008, to such an extent that the Sydney Anglicans openly and publicly began to talk about “managing decline” on their public website, SydneyAnglicans.net.

    Any time the church declines, the very first thing that needs to be scrutinised is the leadership. Do you know why, John Smith? Do you know why, John Smith? Do you know why, John Smith? Because it is the leadership in the Anglican church (and in the pentecostal church) which has been tightly controlling – TIGHTLY CONTROLLING – the content of what is preached in its seminaries and from its pulpits in the churches. Because of this tight control, the buck stops with the leadership.

    Jensen needs to have some humility and leave. He needs to acknowledge that since the Anglican church has not flourished under his command, there must be somebody who can do the job better. And he needs to take his peers who mock Christians who believe that Adam and Eve were real people with him.

  154. Chirpy, is numerical growth then a sign that leaders are leading their churches down the right path? Is ‘decline’ a sign that they are going down a wrong path? (In terms of the truth of what they preach?)

  155. Chirpy, do you feel good now after your tirade and trying to belittle me completely? That is okay, no dramas my friend.

    What denomination do you currently attend? So far you have had a serve at pentes and Anglican’s, what are you contributing to the world?

    But thank you for your concern, I will surely wake up tomorrow fresh from your conviction that the Anglican church is bogus. Cheers 😉

  156. Oh and chirpy, according to your previous comments you are shooting yourself in the foot competely. C3 is a pente church (which you bag out completely) and according to what you said previously about the Anglican church, if we base it on your theory, C3/ Hillsong etc are the best churches to be in, because they have huge growth. Your argument is floored…

    But yes, forgetting, I must wake up to myself, of course!

  157. >>> Start of repost

    John Smith says:
    January 29, 2011 at 3:27 pm
    “So I speak what is happening there publically – as a witness. ”

    Where in the Bible does it say to stay silent, conceal your identity and protest in secret? You must be reading a different Bible to me.

    I thought we were meant to expose false prophets and the wolves in sheeps clothing, but clearly you are not doing that, I stand by my earlier (strong remarks) that you are a hypocrite.

    John Smith says:
    January 29, 2011 at 3:34 pm
    S and P ” I care and you don’t. That’s the difference hear. I care about C3 which is why I still go. ”

    Yet another wild assumption. I care enough to speak the truth in love as I did and fear God more than man or anything else. So for you to boldly declare that I don’t care is rather rich don’t you think.

    On a side note, check your spelling and grammar next time, people might take you more seriously. How can you be raving on about holding back on theological debate when you can’t even get “hear/ here” in the correct context.

    Sorry again if this is harsh, but I have had enough of your rubbish, pretending you are the saviour of C3. God will build His church, with or without man, you are fooling yourself if you think you are making a difference, without further being indoctrinated there

    End of repost <<<

    So, John, do you "feel good now after your tirade and trying to belittle" S&P.

    Do you feel good about saying in your last post that "Your argument is floored…" after you previously said to S&P as reposted above:

    "On a side note, check your spelling and grammar next time, people might take you more seriously. How can you be raving on about holding back on theological debate when you can’t even get “hear/ here” in the correct context."

    You know why I went after you so hard? Because you were being a jerk. And if you hadn't been a jerk, you wouldn't have provoked my ire.

    Anyway, you're right about your point about growth although I question whether C3 and Hillsong have actual growth. They probably do, though.

    So I tend to think that decline is always a sign of failure but growth is not always a sign of success.

    You want to try to pin me down about this issue, don't you? But my earlier post was talking about the decline of the Anglican church. It wasn't talking about the growth of the Anglican church. I was clearly saying that its decline was a sign of failure on the part of the leadership.

  158. Oh, and if you want to know what I’m contributing to the world, I’m exposing the truth about a number of different things that people like you aren’t smart enough or diligent enough to figure out.

  159. Yeah, all the stuff that sophisticated, intellectually-proud, wannabe people think are conspiracy theories.

  160. John Smith: “C3 is a pente church”

    Not int there books. They consider themselves to be a ‘Contemporary Spirit-Filled’ church. They don’t like to be associated with the bad name of Pentecostalism.

    This has been stressed a few times by leaders.

  161. Yes teddy I fit – or should I say DID fit? -a few of those categories. Here’s my background:

    Lordship of imagination – after I left the Catholic church when I discovered that it did not teach real Christianity I was sucked into the God speaks to you via feelings and inner thoughts big time. I was especially vunerable as religious ecstatic feelings came spontaneously when my epilepsy was not well controlled. (I am also a recovering “most personal faith experiences are from mental illness/ neurological conditions” agnostic that developed from loss of these religious feelings after brain surgery.)

    Revelations, prophecies, miracles are for today as well, uncertain belief: thankfully I usually have a skeptical nature possibly from having an over-logical Dad. I always wanted to have some proof from these self-proclaimed prophets and healers. I think that was my one of my Achilles Heels re Charismania. I also had had prayer for healing- I was told I didn’t have enough faith when my seizures didn’t stop which was both very offensive and very faith-damaging.

    Reverant worship – pre-surgery I felt worship very intensely. Post surgery- I felt I had lost my faith because I no longer had those feelings during worship. Years later when I returned to Christianity (via proper christian apologetics this time, not feelings) at a Melbourne AOG church I felt that they were trying to create an atmosphere all the time and I did not feel comfortable with that considering my personal history! I have had some very interesting online discussions with ex-WOFers who had been part of their church’s music ministry. They admitted they were told by their pastors to play a certain way and repeat choruses over and over to create a spiritual atmosphere. Research shows that brain waves actually change during meditation etc and I think those brain waves were no longer occurring in me.

    Worldliness – at the same Melbourne AOG church
    I started to feel uncomfortable when I occasionally
    heard the propaganda that God wants you to be wealthy, and to be wealthy you have to do XYZ. Thankfully I didn’t see double standards for ministers or questionable fashion amongst professing christians there.

    Spiritual experience – I was very unsure about women in my Bible study saying God spoke to me. I knew I had God speak to me all the time when I was a younger christian pre-surgery … and this “God” gave me so much encouragement and flattery and excuses for sin in my case.

    I hope that wasn’t too long!!!!

  162. @ Joey – I had all the above apply to my former church experience. I really appreciate knowing someone saw this is an issue that needs to be addressed both fairly and biblically as Peter Masters has.

    A friend of ours, part of our very close connect group, had a severe stroke about ten years ago, has recovered well, with just a few peronality changes. One being he lost his great sense of humour, another, he will cry when he least expects to, though this has a certain sweetness. (Interestingly another friend who had a stroke, lost their sense of humour as well.)

    A major concern to some was that he no longer “spoke in tongues” and simply couldn’t though we tried to get him to (in that pentecostal way). Did he EVER have the true gift of tongues with accompanying interpretation? No. He used to simply do what we were all doing, and yes, I have to say it, it was just babble. I’m amazed at how many people are now acknowledging and calling their experience just that!

    Does he pray? Yes. Does he love worship? Yes. Does he read and believe God’s Word? Yes. Does he have gift/gifts? Yes. Compassion. Generosity. Faith. Serving.

    So this became quite an interesting development in his life. Food for thought?

  163. Ironically I was a aged-care nursing home nurse who looked after people who had neurological conditions. Thankfully I haven’t lost my sense of humour – yet. 🙂 My emotional side is definitely stronger and I hate that. I have excessive empathy and when I get down I get DOWN.
    Yes it does seem like many tongues and spiritual experiences claimed by some are really only related to brain function/malfunction or group psychology. I figure that if spiritual experiences are really from God then they should be able to be verified by objective outsiders. e.g. Where are the laboratory reports showing cancer is in remission?
    I found a reformed library book on the topic: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=40%7C%7C139

  164. @teddy

    “A friend of ours, part of our very close connect group, had a severe stroke about ten years ago, has recovered well, with just a few peronality changes. ”

    Was that the guy who had a TV show renovate his yard?

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    Disclaimer: This is entirely my opinion and is not prompted by the view of any other person.

  166. Can you produce evidence for your extreme claims, vassie, because if you can’t you need to revise your work somewhat or find a good lawyer!

    On second thoughts no good lawyer would take it on!

    That’s not a threat or prediction, by the way, just precautionary, friendly advice.

    Incidentally, the curse causeless is without effect!

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