The Hyper-Heretical Hotshot Hooha

I’ve often heard that the prosperity movement came out of the Latter Rain Movement. It’s interesting to see that the doctrines that are considered bad, Phil Pringle and Brian Houston teach.


Love Way

On Monday 24th January 2011, @lovewayisbest said:

Well – there goes the Prophetic movement!! It’s a Pathetic Movement

The Prophetic Movement is a dark, evil wasteland teeming with false apostles, false prophets, hyper-heretics, false healers, and greedy, money-hungry con men and women, all of whom are overshadowed by Satan and his demonic forces.

According to leaders in the movement, God is going to transfer the world’s wealth from the wicked to the righteous (specifically, the apostles of course). The wealth will be redistributed under the guidance of the apostles. This will give the Church the resources it needs to establish God’s kingdom on earth. The problem is, this teaching has no basis in Scripture. It’s based on new revelation given by new “prophets,” like members of the ACPE. It’s also based on Scripture verses yanked out of context, like Isaiah 60:5 and 11, which speak of the time after Christ’s return.

Dennis Cramer’s wrote a “Word for 2011” in which he basically tore into a lot of the flakey and dangerous “New Age”-type practices found in today’s Prophetic movement. The Elijah List had actually published Cramer’s piece as well! And it caused such a storm that they had to remove it after just one day – for “clarification”! But then they re-published it – only slightly changed!

Steve Schultz editor of Elijah List & The Voice of the Prophetic magazine ( ) wrote after they pulled the first article when it caused such a storm-
“Dear Elijah List Readers, There was a huge number of people who were unclear on a few issues with Dennis Cramer’s word…

The most controversial aspect was the “AT WILL” issue. Apparently, there are some out and about who are teaching that you can transport or go to Heaven “AT WILL” – i.e. whenever you want. This is truly not taught in Scripture. The word “Doctrine” is another word for “teaching.” It’s an untrue teaching that anytime you want, you can go to Heaven or be transported…

“One cannot go to Heaven like Paul or be transported physically like Phillip simply because they want to or because they feel like it (at will). Teachings like this often crossover into dangerous methods and techniques that resemble New Age, Mysticism, Spiritism or other occult manipulative practices. A Believer cannot and must not force, manipulate, or otherwise attempt to reproduce a sovereign supernatural Bible experience by merely following a method, a series of steps, or worst of all “willing it” to happen.”

In the same re-posted word, Dennis Cramer went on to say-

• Open Heaven/Spiritual Portals = BAD DOCTRINE
• Third Heaven Experiences At Will = BAD DOCTRINE
• Going to Heaven At Will to Get Your Gifts = BAD DOCTRINE
• Transporting Physically At Will = BAD DOCTRINE
• Over-Emphasis on Angels and Specifically Arc-Angels = BAD DOCTRINE
• Going into Trances At Will = BAD DOCTRINE
• Trance Dancing = BAD DOCTRINE
• Hyper-Grace: Christians Do Not Need to Repent of Sin = BAD DOCTRINE”

The demonic false ones have been publishing lies and false prophecies for years! On Nov. 1,2006 the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders (ACPE) released their “Word of the Lord for 2007” through the Elijah List. Each year, this group of 33 “prophets” meets to determine what God is saying to the Church for the new year. I want to point out some observations about this latest “Word.”

1. Note that the list of “prophets” in this council includes Steve Shultz, Chuck Pierce and Kim Clement — three people I’ve recently written about. Clement has a long list of false prophecies, and all three of them teach the unbiblical doctrines of the apostolic-prophetic movement

C. Peter Wagner headshot
2. The council is headed by C. Peter Wagner (pictured here), perhaps the leading proponent of the apostolic-prophetic movement (he calls it the “New Apostolic Reformation”). Wagner teaches that all Christians must submit to the new apostles and prophets. Those who resist are motivated by a high-ranking demonic principality, according to Wagner. He also admits that this movement has the same teachings as the Latter Rain movement of the late 1940s that was deemed heretical by most Christians. (See his books Churchquake! and Changing Church.)

3. The introduction to this “Word of the Lord” has lots of caveats — more than I’ve seen in previous years. Perhaps critics of the movement are having an effect. However, keep in mind a couple of things. First, many of these “prophets” teach that they have the office of prophet and, thus, have the same authority as prophets like Elijah and Jeremiah. So, although they seem to be downplaying their role here, they are elevating it in many of their books and other teaching materials. Also, notice that when you add up all the caveats, you’ll find that not one of the prophecies actually has to come to pass for the prophecies to be accurate, according to these “prophets.” (Read the introduction to see what I mean.) Furthermore, when you read all the prophecies, you’ll see that not one is specific enough to actually be proven true of false. They are so vague and nebulous that many things could be pointed to as their fulfillments. That’s why I call them “fortune cookie prophecies.” Consider prophecy No. 1, for example: “Finishing of a building cycle. Time for new building strategies to be released.” What does this mean? What would it look like if fulfilled? Anything could be made to fit this.

4. Notice prophecy No. 2: “Finishing of the five-fold ministry restored. Apostolic and Prophetic moving together.” The doctrine of “fivefold ministry” is the crux of the apostolic-prophetic movement. It’s based on Ephesians 4:11-13, which — according to the movement’s leaders — teaches that there are five ongoing, governmental offices in the church: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. They teach that apostles and prophets (the highest offices) have been missing since the first century, making the church ineffective. According to the ACPE, these two offices will finish being restored this year. Once all Christians submit to the new apostles and prophets, the church will have power like never before, according to the movement. (Note: Some Christians who believe in the doctrine of “fivefold ministry” don’t view apostles and prophets the same way as leaders in this movement do. They sometimes call missionaries and effective church leaders “apostles,” and they call people with the New Testament gift of prophecy “prophets.” )

5. Prophecy No. 6 has to do with the “transference of wealth.” According to leaders in the movement, God is going to transfer the world’s wealth from the wicked to the righteous (specifically, the apostles). The wealth will be redistributed under the guidance of the apostles. This will give the Church the resources it needs to establish God’s kingdom on earth. The problem is, this teaching has no basis in Scripture. It’s based on new revelation given by new “prophets,” like members of the ACPE (See list below). It’s also based on Scripture verses yanked out of context, like Isaiah 60:5 and 11, which speak of the time after Christ’s return.

Chuck Pierce headshot
6. Note, also, that the “prophets” tells us that 2007 is “The Year of the Clash of the Swords.” “Prophet” Chuck Pierce (pictured here) has prophesied that the Church is currently in a “seven-year war cycle” and that 2007 is the year of the sword. Where did Pierce get this from? Certainly, not from the Bible. But the fact that the ACPE makes this a major portion of their “Word of the Lord for 2007″ shows the weight they give to Pierce’s prophecies that have no biblical basis.

7. I think this warning is humorous: “Watch for the trap of fornication and adultery, and beware of seducing spirits.” Since when did we need a special word to warn us of the lure of sexual immorality? There’s a reason prostitution is called the world’s oldest profession. Of course, we should always beware of seducing spirits.

30 thoughts on “The Hyper-Heretical Hotshot Hooha

  1. Why does Australian always have to follow the USA’s trends whether good or bad?!

    If people have the time this is a very good talk on Dominion Theology/Word Faith/extra-Biblical prophecy.

    The pastor said the most dangerous false teachers are ones who are themselves deceived.

    2 Timothy 3: 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and BEING DECEIVED.

  2. Requote from the ninth paragraph:

    “Each year, this group of 33 “prophets” meets to determine what God is saying to the Church for the new year.”

    Thirty-three (33) is an occult number. There are thirty-three degrees in Freemasonry which is a satanic organisation. These guys are virtually proclaiming via this number that they’re Freemasons who have infiltrated the church.

    Phil Pringle produced a coffee table type book with a black cover called “The Gospel of John in Art – 24 Hours that Saved the World”. It has 33 paintings from the gospel of John.

    If you doubt the infiltration of the church by Freemasons, you need only Google “southern baptists” AND freemasonry. The infiltration of the southern Baptist church in the USA by Freemasons is an ongoing, well-publicised and well-documented problem.

  3. is barry may, former west australian police chaplain, a freemason? What about his off-sider rt rev harry entwistle who callhimself half catholic-half anglican? Is pastor Geoff Woodward of metro churc h perth a freemason? Infact who are the freemasons among us in the pastors of perth? I believe we ought to know these things.

  4. Your real name isn’t Condor, is it? Are you related to Chirpy?

    What is it about having a freemason hunt?

  5. My dad was a freemason. I suppose some would say that explains a lot.

    In fact, he has not attended a meeting for more than thirty years. I remember going to some of their charity fundraisers as a kid. They did have some kind of handshake I think. He kept his vow never to speak about it to outsiders, but has had no interest at all in going back to it. He used to be atheist, but nowadays is a fraction more agnostic.

  6. I dont think one has to be involved with the freemason organisation in order to be influenced by the same types of motives and perils, even within the church.

    Whenever you feel that you have some sort of special knowledge, especially if you feel that you should not share it with others who are less spiritual – then you’re in danger of getting into occult-like beliefs. Occult means hidden, so anytime someone sets up an exclusive club where hidden knowledge can be shared – they are starting to get into the occult.

    These kinds of clubs can occur in Christianity, eg a small church that thinks of themselves as an exclusive remnant of Christianity, and wont discuss any issues with the ‘worldly’. Or, people who think they have the office of Pastor, Prophet or Apostle, and that it gives them exclusive access to knowledge of spirituality that others can only access through them.

    Just add money, fame and perhaps sex and you have a disaster. This kind of thing is going on all the time, especially on the Elijah list and the extreme prophetic movement. Its not really necessary for the Devil to use freemasons, when he can get to Christian’s pride and ego just as easily.

  7. “[…] rev harry entwistle … call[s] himself half catholic-half anglican […]”

    Wouldn’t that make him an Anglatholic? If so, he definitely needs help at AA (“Apostates Anonymous”).

  8. Exactly my point!

    You’re not a Christian, therefore how are you qualified to judge Christians?

    To feign disgust with the Elijah list, when they have more truth than you?

    And what’s with this “concern” for pentecostalism getting a bad name??

    No one concerned about the wacko and perverted teachings espoused on SIGNPOSTS02 ? Giving Christtianity a bad name?

  9. Isn’t freemasonry dying out? I’ve not heard of anyone invited to become one these days.

    “These kinds of clubs can occur in Christianity, eg a small church that thinks of themselves as an exclusive remnant of Christianity, and wont discuss any issues with the ‘worldly’. Or, people who think they have the office of Pastor, Prophet or Apostle, and that it gives them exclusive access to knowledge of spirituality that others can only access through them.” – wazza

    Any of those ‘exclusive remnants’ can become cults, and opaque cultures make this far more likely.

    In my early Pentecostal years, I did believe the pastor had a more direct line to God than I did. I believed that they were ‘great men of God’ and that they were wiser than me. I even sought their advice on things which they knew nothing about really, and they gave it. I was young and naive, and trusted authority. Now, I distrust many of them, and the system that protects their interests, to the point where I will not attend a place run by someone with a guru-like status.

    However – a place where the pastor is like one of the people, and does not raise themselves up or promote that kind of culture is another matter. I know they exist. But church hierarchies promote that kind of thinking, elevating particular men onto pedestals, and some of those men lose humility and work their own agenda’s as if they are the Lords.

    I know of one church where the pastor actively promotes the gathering acting as a flatter community, where all can contribute, and all are expected to have a living relationship with the Lord where they may hear from the Holy Spirit or have something to share, however, I think it is challenging for him, as people arrive from other more hierarchical environments, where guru-dom is unquestioned, and they have certain expectations of the person leading. To change that way of thinking takes education – and unlearning for some.

  10. My name is IAN VINCENT. I am a TRUE CHRISTIAN. Those of you with differing views from me are in danger of being declared as NOT A CHRISTIAN. I know what God thinks, and my interpretation of the bible is correct.

  11. Ian said :

    “You’re not a Christian, therefore how are you qualified to judge Christians?”

    I would dispute the claim that I am not a Christian, and the claim that I am judging anyone.

    However, I support the right of anyone – whatever their beliefs – to discuss and critically analyse anyones words or actions , whether Christian or not. In particular if they are making public statements, or have plans to influence society – as the Elijah list do.

    I even support the r

  12. I even support the rIght of you and others to criticise me and my actions. Imagine if I said “you are a Christian, so what right do you have to judge non-Christians” That would be absurd.

    “The Elijah list, as nutty as they are have far more truth than you.”

    Truth, I think, is not something that can be possessed, much less quantified by oneself or others. A statement can be said to be true or falsein its context. Truth is worked out in discussion with others through openness.

  13. wazza2,

    “Truth, I think, is not something that can be possessed […]”

    Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. In the same way that “he who has the Son has life”, he who has the Son also has truth. So certainly and incontrovertibly truth *can* be possessed. Indeed, if one is saved one possesses it, and one cannot be saved without possessing it.

    “Truth is worked out in discussion with others through openness.”

    That’s what the world claims, because they refuse to recognise or acknowledge that Jesus is the truth.

  14. Wow thats really clever CCCer, lets see if I can do something like that.

    Jesus is the way the truth and the life
    But we also know that he who loves his life will lose it

    So, replacing life with Jesus (since we know they are equivalent)

    We get: He who loves his Jesus will lose Him.

    Or, replacing life with truth

    He who loves truth will lose it

  15. wazza2,

    “So, replacing life with Jesus (since we know they are equivalent) […]”

    Well we seem to have gone from theology to mathematics in pretty short order. (If Ivan Panin were still alive I’d suggest that we should get him involved at this stage 😉

  16. Sorry, wazza2, your version, which is probably tongue in cheek, I know, can’t work because it isn’t contextually accurate. CCCer’s is reasonably accurate.

    Truth, in fact is received and known. Whether you can claim that as possession is up for debate.

    On judgement, we are judged by those within and without, which is why we are to have a good report amongst them. Reports come out of assessment.

    Wazza2 is perfectly within his rights to judge Christians, whether he is saved or not. I think he is, by the way.

    Only God can know who is saved or not, although each of us should know whether we are led of the Holy Spirit, and he bears witness with our spirit that God is our Father, which is evidence of sonship.

    Having said that, there are some clues which tell the believer if another person is saved or not.

    The first of these, after love for Christ, of course, is an obvious love for the brethren. If this is not present, the person claiming to be a Christian is falling short.

    I personally welcome judgement, although I do not always like it or respond well to it immediately.

    If I am innocent I should be able to either demonstrate it by way of defence, backed with scripture and the Spirit, or walk away in forgiveness, knowing I am falsely accused, but not wanting to assert my own vengeance, that being the prerogative of God.

    If I am guilty as charged, I need to be able to apologise, repent and be forgiven, without fear of further judgement.

    But if you do judge me, please allow me the right to judge you with the same measure, even if I don’t use it.

    Better to be judged here, and make adjustments, than before the Throne of Christ.

  17. Wazza2, that was some interesting interchanging of words there. You can’t use words like maths though. Just because a=b doesn’t mean b=a like in maths. Eg God is love. We cannot say love is God.

  18. So, how many churches/denominations actually recognize or submit to this Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders?

    I’d guess (and hope) it’s just some flaky Christians who like going to
    conventions and feeling important.

    (as opposed to flaky Christians who like commenting on blogs and feeling important)…

  19. GTE,

    “I think that is the point that Wazza was trying to make to CCCer who was trying to make mathematical values based interpretation work…unsuccessfully […]”

    Au contraire, Greg, the reasoning behind my comment is quite sound.

    I’m reminded of what someone once observed regarding Christ’s trial before Pilate. “What is truth”, Pilate asked rhetorically; the supreme irony is that the truth was in plain view, standing only a few feet away from him.

    Pilate’s spiritual blindness in an apt metaphor for today’s apostates and heretics: quasi-spiritual seekers who are ever searching but never able to acknowledge the truth – even it is right in front of their noses.

  20. Maybe, after all, the Dalai Lama IS divine? How can we know whether he is or not?

    How do we know that Greg is not the next Lama?

    Now, DO NOT QUOTE THE BIBLE at me!!

    Let’s have an intelligent discussion here without the shackles of religious fundamentalism.

    Greg could be diviine, could he not?

  21. Right and wrong : Who told you what is right and wrong? How do you know? How can you be sure?

    What about Pedaphiles? If enough people claim that they were born that way then would they have a case to legitimize it?

    Or racism? If enough people in a society believe that a certain race has no right to exist then surely they have a mandate to exterminate them, based on the assumption that there are no Biblical moral absolutes?

    What if they were born that way? Born with a disposition to despise others. Then it’s OK?

    Didn’t Hitler also have this basic human right to decide what is right and wrong? He decided that Jews have no right to live. How could we argue against that, if the Bible is not the arbiter of morality? What is going to be our source of authority?

    Remove the Bible, then debate right and wrong, and it becomes a STUPID debate.

  22. Greg,

    “The highest moral code we have as Christians comes from Jesus […] where do you think that came from? Confucianism […]”

    Are you really stating that what Jesus said came from Confucianism? Really? Or are you just in a state of confucian?

    (By the way, I’ve been to China, and I can tell you that all those years of Buddhism and Confucianism hasn’t done them any good whatsoever. Why else do you think that Asia is in such a sad state, if not from following false religions?)

    “So you see Ian, that rather than being a STUPID debate, this could actually be an interesting discussion with out any need to depend on the bible at all.:”

    Fine, but remember that the word of God is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. So if you leave the Bible out of it, you’ll be talking in the dark (maybe you should try whistling instead).

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