New Administrator for SP02

Hi folks … your friendly neighbourhood Bull, who lives the other side of the world, is now the SP02 administrator!
Yup, I’ve taken over. BUT … I do not know the local scene in Australia at all. I get hints of it but not enough to originate that many posts. So … you guys are going to have to pick up the ball and run with it if we are going to keep the interest up.

My mission statement is as follows:

“To give space and time for those who are in a troubled church situation to find fellowship, understanding, teaching, safety, hospitality and above all LOVE.”

Many of those who contribute can sometimes be vitriolic and harsh with their brethren. Indeed, they sometimes even question the validity of the concept that those they argue with are brethren! However, I do not want to see those who humbly come looking for answers to their problems with church or doctrine to be flamed.

We are all looking to perfect our doctrine that we might more fully know God. We don’t have it all right. But we are all getting there.

Whoever we are,

Wherever we are,

God accepts us as we are …

But He doesn’t leave us there.

Shalom.


208 thoughts on “New Administrator for SP02

  1. Good on you, Bull. I’m good with your mission statement, but you may have to allow for the odd heated discussion from time to time. It’s not all bad. Sometimes we have to work through issues to come to a conclusion or agreement. I agree new contributors should be cut some slack, though.

  2. ” Not surprised. Although the lawyers will gave no trouble finding him.”

    I really feel sad at the idea of Christians threatening other Christians with lawsuits.

    If Specks (whoever he or she is) is still reading, hope you are okay.

    Kipling, that was a great sentiment you expressed there.

    Probably we are all different. I don’t mind being berated and insulted and made fun of, and appreciate that some people might attack me feeling that it’s God’s will that they do. But some people can’t handle it. And I’m kind of old fashioned in that I think the womenfolk should be spared….!

    I still think the ideal is if you can be kind and loving and respectful when you talk even if you think the other person is a raving heretic.

    I think anonymity is a great thing though and wish it would stay that way.

  3. I guess I am not sure of the slander law. People could call me a heretic, greedy, a drunk, a lover of money etc etc, but I wouldn’t call that slander and I wouldn’t sue anyone over it – esp if they thought they were helping me, or others by it.

    I guess somebody has been offended? Anyway, I’ll leave it there. But I’d just suggest that once people start suing for slander, I wouldn’t be surprised if churches end up in trouble.
    Probably a lot of people have been slandered, victimized, traumatized from people in the pulpit.

    So I guess I won’t be able to read the Calvinist debates anymore?

  4. With regards to debates … ELD can have his arguments with whomever, but be especially gentle with newcomers.

    I also want to encourage back old faces who got annoyed and angry with some.

    MN, Lionfish, Greg, Wazza2 (I know, you never really went away!)

    C’mon, it’d be good to see you on here again.

  5. I guess that’s the question. Is it possible to explain to someone that you think they are in error, so bad and dangerous that you consider it heresy putting them and those they influence in mortal and eternal danger and not be offensive?

    I actually think it is possible.

  6. Bull – I dont really give a flying shit what you think – half the time I dont understand your cryptic posts anyway….

  7. Bull why have you busted your balls to get control of this blog – who are you? you are not even Australian, what do you know about the Australian Christian Church?

  8. @ Bull – want to do a new web design for Signposts02? Your “Welsh Reflections” is very smart.

  9. @ELD,
    Bull has been involved with SP02 and other versions for a long time and is a trusted friend. I think it is admirable that he has accepted the offer to take up the blog, which has a quite a few articles which are close to defamatory.

    I don’t think C3, Hillsong or other groups and individuals mentioned here are interested in litigation of any kind, and would rather build bridges, but some of the things which have been suggested are disgusting. Hopefully that will change now and constructive commentary will become the norm.

    I am all for debate and discussion, and not afraid of a little bit of heat in the kitchen, but outright, blatant, petty, spiteful and demeaning false accusations should be give the short shrift they deserve.

    Bull has my full support and encouragement.

  10. Reform: make changes in something in order to improve it.

    Is a reformed person supposed to be statically conservative or open to refinement?

    Your needle seems to be stuck, ELD.

  11. No Kipling, reformed people a generally characterised by people who hold well defined positions and beliefs on the essentials of the Christian Faith and as a result know what they believe and why they believe it

    1. A Reformed person presupposes God’s Word alone as his/her ultimate authority;

    2. A Reformed person stresses the sovereignty of God, that is, His reign over all things, meticulously determining (Eph 1:11) all that comes to pass (i.e. God is never taken by surprise);

    3. A Reformed person ephasizes a CHRIST-CENTRED proclamation of the gospel, that salvation is wholly of God, by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as revealed in the Scripture alone to the Glory of God alone;

    4. A Reformed person views the Bible as a redemptive-historical organic unfolding of revelation which is structured by three covenants (redemption, works and grace).

    In comparison to a reformed person, a seeker sensitive, moralistic, theraputic, deist, neo-evangelical who would be found in a C3 building on a sunday morning typically holds to the following principles:

    1. The chief end of man is to “live your best life now”, “Discover the Champion in You” and feel good about oneself;

    2. Promote Arminian pragmatism consisting of that shallow unbiblical theology giving rise to bizarre gimmicks such as special visits from celebrities (i.e. Bear Grylls) and heretical, positive, motivational speeches to draw a crowd and get them down the aisle and engage in a superstitious and unbliblical neo-evangelical rite namely, to bow their head repeat a scripted prayer and popeishly declare them saved;

    3. be a good christian, pay your tithes on time, serve in the creche or the bookstore, and you might eventually get to heaven….

    One is Christianity, the other isnt – or they are both not – but the sure as hell are not the same thing….

  12. I see, ELD, so that first part of your thesis confirms that, in your opinion, Reformed people are only reformed outwardly, that is, in understanding and proclamation of the letter, and not inwardly, displaying Christian character as well as expounding context.

    That would explain why you appear to know so much but fail to live what you preach.

    The second part is so naive and out of context with reality I nearly fell off my chair at the gall of it.

    I know we’ve discussed these things before, and you’ve been well confuted, having produced not a speck of evidence for your case, so now I can only take you as a fabulist or recklessly out of touch to repeat such works-based diatribes.

    When you can drop off your extremism maybe you’ll be able to hold a decent conversation with the sane.

  13. Thanks for putting your case, Sirius.

    It’s fascinating that a site which purports to be for those hurt by the church has done so much to cause offence.

    Perhaps this can be put right in the future.

    Who knows?

  14. @Sirius – dont let the door hit you on the arse on the way out purpose driven low life…

    @Kipling – think what you want, If anyone “lived” what you preached – whilst they may receive a bouquet for their ethics, they would be inevitably condemned on the basis of Galatians 1:8 – no different to Mr Glen Beck the Morman whose morality would probably put yours to shame yet whom you would exclude from the kingdom by virture of tradition only and not a proper theological understanding of the false Gospel that condemns the poor fellow (save for a merciful act of God to remedy the same)

    You and your scumbag litigious buddy are peas in a moral pod…

  15. “@Sirius – dont let the door hit you on the arse on the way out purpose driven low life”

    Aren’t you a charming piece of work. Nutjob.

  16. ELD, it’s not knowing what’s right which counts with God. It’s doing what he says. We may be saved by grace through faith, but we’re saved unto good works created in Christ before the foundation of the world.

    Yes, old son, you were predestined to live a Christlike life, not to be addicted to slander. Rumour has it that you can’t go a day without heaping scorn on someone, especially fellow Christians. The’s probably a word for this.

    You can go on all you like about being the elect and named in the Lamb’s Book of Life from before time, but if you are you will show the fruit of it. It’s hard to see on these threads, but maybe this is only a pseudo-charicature of who you really are, so I’ve always tried to go along with your foul play and focused on the skills between the putrid lines.

    You’re like the Prima Donna who has a fantastic talent, but abuses all around her. Most onlookers will pay to see the talent, and enjoy a moment of greatness, but those close by suffer for this cause.

    If you carry on like a rancid pork chop every time someone says something which contrasts your doctrinal infatuation with Reformed theology, you’re probably demonstrating a tendency towards being hooked on the old man, and abandoning the new.

    Jesus said we’ll know teachers by their fruit. You aspire to teach everyone who comes here, or any blog you frequent. What fruit are you known by?

    The complaint about Reformed thinkers is that they act more like the elite than the elect towards other believers. You show this to be true.

    Of course, as long as we walk this earth, those of us with outstanding faults, such as you and I, are in a great position to rectify our character, through our association with the Spirit of Christ.

    Maybe you should spend more time listening to the actual regenerational content of your Pastor’s messages than assessing its doctrinal accuracy.

  17. “Jesus said we’ll know teachers by their fruit”

    Who do I purport to teach Kipling???

    I dont hold any office in the Church, and I dont teach anyone – YOU DO and you teach error….

    Hows you fruit Pal – heresy and false teaching and suffering those who teach error and permitting them a forum & promoting them in your organisation is fruit that is rotten to the core – what are the works of the flesh – heresy is a work of the flesh

    You defend the indefensible – for example, Perry Noble – an absolute abusive wolf who should never be allowed to pastor people – you are no different, you embrace error – you are an apostate

    Lets talk about your fruit?

  18. You say you don’t teach, then you proceed to teach me what you think I believe and teach!

    What you do on here is teaching, ELD. Non-stop expounding of your own virtues and validity. Teaching from your mix of slander and ceremony.

    If you disagree with a person you slap them down. If you’re interested you throw a few biscuits to the pups.

    I challenge you to go through these threads you participate on and see how often you’ve insulted a person for no reason but spite. That’s the fruit I’m talking about.

    I know in the heat of a discussion people can say things in a strong way, but you slap people down for being mild, being gentle, for being friendly, for being diplomatic, for trying to explain why they were offended, for attempting to work through a difficult issue with you, for attempting to understand your theological jargon, for just being a person who drops in for company. You don’t need a reason to bark someone down.

    You know heaps, for sure, and could be worth listening to, but you’re a blend of clay and iron, unfiltered put-down and self-appraising wisdom.

    Unlike you, I do not falsely say everything you write is either error or heresy. What I do say is that your manner of communicating is offensive.

    You can say what you like about my doctrine, fruit and understanding of scripture. I don’t say much about what I actually do. I have nothing to prove to you, ELD. You are not God. I owe you nothing but to love you.

    And you have nothing to prove to me. I’m sure you are a great person away from here. But you really do have a severe way of making friends.

    You are teaching, wether you like it or not.

  19. Let’s just take this thread, ELD:

    To Bull – ‘I dont really give a flying shit what you think – half the time I dont understand your cryptic posts anyway….’

    To me for no reason, thinking I was Sirius – ‘ youre an absolute dick and C3 is an absolute cock-rag apostate outfit… bite me you scum bag…’

    To Sirius – ‘dont let the door hit you on the arse on the way out purpose driven low life…’

    That amongst other things on this thread aimed at various people is a small glimpse of your fruit.

    You asked to be bitten. I don’t like the taste.

  20. To everyone … I have been slowly taking over the admin for this blog for about three months.

    An inconvenient truth for some out there perhaps. But it is true. Indeed, several people out there can confirm this.

    Some contributors have been particularly offensive and this must stop.

    It’s time for those individuals to grow up and demonstrate the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

    Shalom.

  21. ELD, I think it’s great for you to present reformed theology here.
    Kipling, I think it’s admirable that you would take the time to make a defence of theology and practices of comtemporary churches on this site. And while your arguments obviously don’t convince some, I think you argue more articularly than most pente/charismatic pastors I know.

    And I agree with you about the insults and course language.

    It doesn’t serve any useful purpose.

    Good luck Bull.

  22. Mr Bull, looks like you have an easy job now. Nobody is posting except me. So, now I am wondering if it’s all my fault!

    Or is it that I am the only one still not banned….?

  23. @movingon. Thanks for that. I’ll be checking that out. But for now I like the “shooting the wolf” one, but esp Driscoll’s one re listening to Piper and Osteen!!
    I’m a meat eating vegetarian…..
    Elephant room is a great concept.

  24. Bull, if you ever decide to delete posts on this site for whatever reason, start with mine.
    Not because I am worried about slander either 🙂

  25. I won’t be deleting posts … (at the moment anyway!)

    Been really busy this weekend so will add a few posts later today I expect.

    Calvinism vs Arminianism is a good debate to have, as long as people don’t climb into the gutter to do it.

    Shalom

  26. @Bull – Like I said before, I dont care what you think about me, ban me, I dont care your inability to understand that my row with Kipling is on the foundational basis of what constitues the Gospel of Jesus Christ not merely Calvinism v Arminianism, is astonishing – I have had it to the hilt of your derogatory comments on a few occasions on how boring my dialogue is with people – You think my thought belong in the “gutter” – I think your an unintelligent prat – both are on equal footing as insults pal….

    I am passionate about what I am saying – I dont give a give a care if it offends your sensibilities my sqeemish friend – your casual indifference makes me boil – you are sadly mistaken if what has substantively presented and laid out before Kipling in the last week is limited to a Calvinistic apologetic – it has been about the GOSPEL buddy… I am saying that my Arminian brother Wesley would recoil from the deplorable methodology and even the pelagian gospel that the apsotate church including C3 is presenting…

    If you dont see it you are blind – go on about how your delicate conscience is offended by me all you want, its funny how your conscience is indifferent to assaults against the faith once delivered for the saints, its funny how little contending you do in light of all your almost indecipherable random comments and absolutely zip dialogue – you give at least 1 or 2 comments then you drop off the face of the earth….”Shalom” – you dont even have the backbone to confront me but you are happy to refer to me in the 3rd person.

  27. Desmond, you are as rude as hell and i really feel for Bull.

    But …. I love your passion, as ugly as it is! That last post of yours really did something to me.

    “if any man preaches another gospel…”
    “Woe unto me if I preach not the gospel”.

    Time for serious study and prayer re the above and others re the gospel. Heavy.

  28. You think my thought belong in the “gutter” – I think your an unintelligent prat.

    I won’t ban you ELD. I do think that much of your language belongs in the gutter. Indeed, you attitude to others is really very striking. You may feel you are defending Jesus and the Gospel once delivered to the saints by being so agressive towards anyone who doesn’t automatically agree with you. However anyone undecided believers are going to be put off by your approach to apologetics.

    When you offend people ask yourself this:
    “Are people offended by the true Gospel, or by me?”

    But then, I suppose you can comfort yourself with the notion that only those selected get to heaven. Indeed, salvation is an escalator to heaven that God Himself puts you on and you can’t resist Him.

    Why bother going out to preach the Gospel in that case?

    I do wish you some Shalom. You might give me a little in return.

    The Fruit of the Holy Spirit is all of these: (not fruits!)
    Love
    Joy
    Peace
    Patience
    Kindness
    Goodness
    Faithfulness
    Gentleness
    Self-Control

    True Christians have all of these in some measure.

    Does my life match up to this? Do I demonstrate all of these?

  29. @Churchman – apostasy is rampant in the church. we are in a war for the truth…it is no longer suffice to to know what we believe, but we need to know WHY we believe it…..

    Notice how Kipling’s defence of his own denomination’s orthodoxy is evidenced ONLY by may be summarised in 3 or 4 paragraphs (if at all) in a deficient non-descript “statement of faith” on a website….the same cannot be evidenced by ANY of the preaching or even to the slightest extent something that may have published in a 2 sentence statement on social media such as Twitter…..I have asked him, he cannot produce it….

  30. @Bull

    “But then, I suppose you can comfort yourself with the notion that only those selected get to heaven. Indeed, salvation is an escalator to heaven that God Himself puts you on and you can’t resist Him.”

    Thats a misrepresentation of what I believe based on and nothing more than characture. How do you know whether Calvinism and Arminianism is a good debate when you dont undertand either? Someone who understands Calvinism by default understands Arminianism by virtue of them being equal opposite assertions. Someone who understands Calvinism doesnt misrepresent Calvinism, rather they fairly even handedly presents what a Calvinist believes instead of distorting it to vindicate themselves and make themselves look sophisticated.

    Characture/Misrepresentation of Reformed Theology 1:
    “Indeed, salvation is an escalator to heaven that God Himself puts you on and you can’t resist Him.”

    Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom He predestined, these He also CALLED; whom He CALLED, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

    I have just quoted the ordo salutus – or the “Order of Salvation” which is one of the most lucid passages in the Bible on the sovereignty of God in salvation.

    Bull, please show me how a reformed person has erred by saying God’s grace prevails over our natural resistance on account of our state of depravity whereby we resist God, for those whom he has chosen.

    Characture/Misrepresentation of Reformed Theology 2:
    “But then, I suppose you can comfort yourself with the notion that only those selected get to heaven.”

    Bull, using the scriptures primarily and and any extrinsic scholarly sources secondarily, please refute the following exegetical statement ROMANS 9:15-16 –

    For [God] says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

    “The biblical doctrine of election is that before Creation God selected out of the human race, foreseen as fallen, those whom he would redeem, bring to faith, justify, and glorify in and through Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:28-39; Eph. 1:3-14; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; 2 Tim. 1:9-10). This divine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace, for it is unconstrained and unconditional, not merited by anything in those who are its subjects. God owes sinners no mercy of any kind, only condemnation; so it is a wonder, and matter for endless praise, that he should choose to save any of us; and doubly so when his choice involved the giving of his own Son to suffer as sin-bearer for the elect (Rom. 8:32).” (J.I. Packer)

    Furthermore Bull, before you flatter yourself too much (as I can prove from your assertions above that you have an errant (possibly semi-pelagian ) biblical anthropology/view on the scope and extent on the fallen nature of humanity) in light of Gods perfect law, how mauch the fruits of of the spirit do you really display – even as a christian who cant even honestly deal with positions of those he is attempting to refute?

  31. By the way with regard to your comment “Why bother going out to preach the Gospel in that case?”

    Uhhh…because the imperative form our Lord to proclaim the Gospel is FIRST and FOREMOST a COMMAND???

    God alone saves, the Gospel is the MEANS by which God saves – why cannot God decide and declare the means by which he will save and command it to be preached irrespective of what we think of its utility???

    You should be doing it because you are commanded to…or doesnt that aspect of obedience fall under the rubric of what you have sovereignly decided what constitutes the “fruit of the spirit” – a Christian does not have that attitude to the most important privelige bestowed upon us a Gods vice regents on Earth….

  32. Someone help ELD out … he hasn’t read Galatians lately.

    The fruit of the spirit is listed right there. Oh … hang on. ELD has been in Galatians lately.

    ELD, why do you think I have “sovereignly decided what constitutes the “fruit of the spirit””???

    I only listed the ‘flavours’ from Galatians!

    You seem to delight in your anger towards me. Can’t you write in a more considered and rational way? Just because you don’t like me for some reason, you accuse me of having a semi-pelagian theology.

    Would you like a post dedicated to your understanding of these things? I promise I won’t edit you if you promise to limit yourself to the way you might speak to a respected elderly lady in your fellowship.

    It’s up to you. I want to give you a fair opportunity to speak … really.

    Shalom.

  33. Ummm….so your saying obedience is not a fruit of the spirit or a sign of regeneration??…..dont appeal to others to help you out friend – its me and you here…

    You havent even bothered to attempt to answer the questions – you seem to delight in misrepresenting what I belive to make yourself look good (strawmen arguments) yet when you are called to account you wont interact….why wont you answer my questions?

    we are starting to scratch the surface of your self perceived benevolence arent we Bull – its not nice having someone put you on the spot, it brings out stuff you never even knew was there….

    You want to attack my Reformed theology? fine – Answer the questions Bull and dont be a little girl….

  34. @ELD…’Someone who understands Calvinism doesnt misrepresent Calvinism, rather they fairly even handedly presents what a Calvinist believes instead of distorting it to vindicate themselves and make themselves look sophisticated.’

    I’ll accept that. But, by the same measure, you misrepresent the gospel I preach, and think yo can get away with it with a few snide remarks about character.

    The onus has always been you you to prove that C3/Hillsong doctrine is false. You made the claim. You must have evidence. You must be able to produce the facts you base your case on.

    You have never shown my doctrine to be error. It is orthodox.

    By the way, I have always said I am neither Armenian or Calvinist, merely a Bible believer, which is far simpler, if you ask me.

    Now you plead the innocent, hard-done-by warrior martyr who has been wronged because no one understands the battle he is engaged in. Along with this, you, on the one hand, claim Arminianism is the opposite of truth and dangerous, and yet Wesley was OK, which is a complete contradiction in terms.

    I see your elitism as a slap in the face of truth. The Gates of heaven are open to all who call in the name of the Lord, not on an elite.

    The bastardisation of the concept of ‘all’ and ‘whoever’ by Reformed theorists is a travesty, an essential part of their eisegesis, which, in the end, tells us how desperate they are to prove a theory, when so much scripture denounces it.

    I am not really interested in fighting you over this if you can’t be civil. I am interested i the discussion, but I don’t need to be pounded down or stirred up by your insults and bad manners. Apart from anything else, I am told in scripture not to engage is such disputes.

    ‘Avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife, and a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient.’ 2 Tim. 2:23-24

    Now, if you have no evidence to produce, then you should recant, otherwise the debate on whether C3/Hillsong doctrine is heresy is over.

    And if you don’t actually care that people see you as an angry person you are not reading your Bible in the right places, because you should care how people see you.

  35. PP’s endorsement….
    “V excited to have Paul de Jong from Auckland NZ ‘LIFE’, speaking this wknd all srvcs. He really is a world shaker!”
    6:07 PM Apr 1st via TweetDeck

  36. Moving On (still think of you as Teddy) – I think the only requirement to speak at C3OF is that you can command a large crowd and are very positive. As long as you aren’t critical of the church organisation, you can probably say whatever you like. (You can be critical of things that the church already disapproves of anyway.)

  37. @ RP – He’s part of the rather small pentecostal preaching circuit they all travel in. It’s really interesting sometimes, just looking at their preaching itineraries – like the Pacific Ring of Fire and sometimes just as destructive!

    Teddy may just make a re-appearance, after we finish “moving on” (as in sold house :)).

  38. I take it you don’t want a post of your very own to lay out your case for Calvinism ELD?

    I really don’t understand why you are trying to rile me.

    I am waiting for a civil response.

  39. Bull/Kipling I have had some time to consider my overall conduct, and you are right. As is Kipling. I have some repenting to do. I undertake to stop with the abuse (which is unacceptable) and desist with my overly agressive tone. Sorry for what I have said.

  40. Thank you kindly, ELD.

    If you would like to make a post about Calvinism, putting all the various points together, let me know.

    Stick a reply on here and I’ll turn it into a post. In the search for Gospel truth … truth matters.

    Lets explore it together. (And before any cynical observers think this is diapraxis or whatever it is, it isn’t. That’s the sort of thing where a ‘leader’ already has a preconceived theology and they direct the discussion to an agreement over that rather than a genuine search for truth.)

    The truth is, Arminians claim certain passages prove they are right. Calvinists claim certain passages prove they are right.

    I’d like to be able to take a look at this in all earnestness because even though we are not theological scholars, that’s ok, because the Bible was not given only to theological scholars. This means we have not only the right to read and understand the Bible, we have the ability to do it and indeed the duty to do it.

    It’s ok to have arguments. It’s even ok to lose our tempers. However the context is everything.

    Jesus himself got angry. The context was the cleansing of the temple. He didn’t lose it when His mum asked Him to turn water into wine!

    Anyway, old timers here will know that I have been prone to lose my rag in the past so it is a bit pot/kettle with me.

    I have to say, I feel really blessed by the last couple of posts. I do feel that Shalom has come!

    Thank you all.

    Shalom.

  41. @Gregster, yep, you are right and I own it. I still look forward to doing 15 rounds with you but I guess I will just have to keep tabs on my conduct.

    @Churchman, thanks buddy I appreciate it.

  42. Re the outings –

    Don’t know much about it all but I will say this.

    I understand a person wanting to warn others of spiritual danger.And I realize it’s extremely difficult to leave a church. But there will always come a time when you have to leave, instead of staying and fighting from within. If you elect to stay and battle incognito, you have to accept that one day you will be found out.

    Also, if you make fun of someone, you have to accept that the person, or those who love that person will retaliate. He who lives by the sword will die by the sword.

    So, to specks – I do silly things to make my kids or others laugh too, but if I or someone put in on youtube, and someone else posted in and referred to me as a loser etc, chances are that someone would be offended. So, what’s done is done. No real surprises. I am a believer in mercy though, and hope everything works out well.

    ELD, still not willing to call myself a Calvinist. But, there is an irresistible beauty to reformed theology. That sounds funny, but there’s no other way to put it. What can I say about the brilliance of Luther and Calvin? Just incredible towering intellects. Ironically, there would of course be no Hillsong or C3 without them. But nothing else in this world would be the same either. Those two changed the world. And there are scriptures that I can not deny and need to stop putting in the “too hard basket”. I love your passion -for the Word, for God and for the church. I really hope you don’t leave here. I need to learn from you.

    We are living in an incredible time in Christian history with so many differences in theology and practice, and also with the internet we get to see those differences in ways we never could before. Don’t know if anyone read much of the Internet Monk.
    He died about a year ago but had a fantastic blog writing about the evangelic world. He was a man who sought truth and was willing to change his views if he was convinced (that takes real courage andhumility), and in the end his wife embraced Catholicism, which was pretty problematic for him. But they loved each other to the end. Beautiful, inspiring couple.

    Guys, if I come across as sitting on the fence too much, not taking sides, and seeking peace too much. etc etc, here is a bit of sad biographical info which might explain. I have been divorced…..
    So, I’m not really qualified to judge anyone. And everyday of my life I wonder how things might have been different had I known more, been able to just not let things get to me, just been a better person etc etc etc. So, I hate conflict – and probably err on the side of compromise now.

    There are some superb people on here. Whatever happens with this blog, I’m glad I found it. It’s been an important part of my life. Hope everyone continues.

  43. @ELD-
    “Bull/Kipling I have had some time to consider my overall conduct, and you are right. As is Kipling. I have some repenting to do. I undertake to stop with the abuse (which is unacceptable) and desist with my overly agressive tone. Sorry for what I have said.”

    Praise Jesus, and thank you for being open and honest. We all need to be more like Christ; at times everyone of us lacks grace and humility- myself included.

    I also apologize for any posts that have been received as demeaning or offensive. It is obvious to me how some of my posts were overly aggressive and needlessly critical.

    I have an appreciation for the discussions that I have had on here with ELD, Kipling, Teddy, Specksandplanks, and Greg, in addition to reading comments from Bull, Churchman and everyone else.

    I have been recovering from hip surgery and have had a chance to read some good books I would like to recommend:

    “Castles in the Sand” by Carolyn Green is a wonderful novel about how occultic spiritual disciplines are being embraced at seminaries and Bible colleges.

    “A Time of Departing” by Ray Yungen is a good resource for those who would like to learn more about the new age movement and how many ‘Christian’ leaders are promoting a false version of Christianity.

    “John Calvin Goes to Berkeley” was an enjoyable read. It is a novel about five college students who seek to solve the mystery of predestination from a biblical perspective. It is 300 pages and I think it could be very interesting whether you believe in Calvinism, Arminianism, are undecided, don’t care, or are new to the topic.

    God Bless.

  44. Hi Chirpy! Long time no read!

    Did you realise that the hand signal with the thumb, small finger and ring finger extended is deaf signing for ‘I Love You’, being an amalgamation of the letters ‘i’, ‘l’ ‘y’?

  45. @ chirpy – is this a “conspiracy theory” about a conspiracy theorist?

    “Fritz Artz Springmeier (born September 24, 1955) (aka Victor E. Schoff) is an American conspiracy theorist and religious right wing activist, formerly a resident of Corbett, Oregon, who has written a number of books claiming that satanic forces are behind a move toward world domination by various families and organizations. He has described his goal as “exposing the New World Order agenda.”

    Springmeier has been linked to a violent extremist group called the Army of God, and it was alleged that he had been growing marijuana with a member of that organization in order to supplement his income.

    On January 31, 2002, Springmeier was indicted on one charge of cultivation of marijuana under subsection (a), paragraph (1) of 21 U.S.C. § 841. He was arrested, together with his wife, after investigations into a white separatist group revealed evidence of marijuana cultivation.[1] The government dropped that charge on November 13, 2003.

    Also on January 31, 2002, Springmeier was indicted in connection with a bank robbery. On February 12, 2003, Springmeier was found guilty of one count of armed bank robbery under subsections (a) and (d) of 18 U.S.C. § 2113 and one count of possession of a semi-automatic rifle during a federal crime of violence under 18 U.S.C. § 924 and 18 U.S.C. § 2. On the same day that the marijuana charge was dropped, Springmeier was sentenced to 9 years and 3 months in prison for his involvement in the robbery in Damascus, Oregon in 1997, in which he set a bomb at an adult video store as an accomplice of another right-wing militant. In October 2010, Springmeier was released from prison to go on and complete a 5 year probation program. He was restricted from engaging in any political work, for the time being as well. Springmeier was put back in prison in January 2011, and was again released on March 25, 2011.”

  46. Also, Moving On, if you believe everything you read on Wikipedia, the place you lifted your last post from – a known source of propaganda and misinformation, then you deserve to be ignorant.

  47. @ chirpy – of course I didn’t do any deep research on your post!! All anyone has to do is google Fritz Springmeier just to confirm YOUR facts. I’ve never heard of him – and guess what popped up? Another conspiracy theory about your conspiracy theorist!

    Why didn’t you tell us there may be “misinformation” about him when you posted your random link?

  48. Because the misinformation isn’t important. What’s important is the following resource that I posted.

    “Be Wise As Serpents” by Fritz Springmeier 1991:

    #################Springmeier1991.pdf (edited by admin … this is sympathetic to Nazi claims of a Jewish conspiracy. So I removed the link)

    (11.5MB pdf)

    Detailed 765-page account of occult and masonic infiltration and subversion of the Christian church worldwide.

  49. ah. the Masons….. Billy Graham is one too right.
    Feelings of nostalgia when I hear people talk about Masons, the Club of Rome, the Illuminati etc. I miss Barry Smith… Imagine the field day he’d be having now with these disasters.

  50. churchman, don’t worry about it. Just go back to sleep. We don’t need your help. We’ll take care of it ourselves.

  51. I have read this pdf by Fritz Springmeier, Chirpy.

    Extremely paranoid and anti-semitic. However the guys credibility as a born-again believer is shot to pieces when you try to find out about him now. YOu see, that book was written in 1991. What’s he up to now?

    It looks like he is deeply involved in far-right extremism in the USA. There were hints already about the guys clear fascist beliefs when he almost commends the Nazis for “seeing through the conspiracy for a jewish take-over” …

    What happens when you mix truth with error? You get error.

    I am in two minds about keeping that link up.

    I need to think about it some more but none of us would want to promote the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” … would we?

    What does everyone else think? I am inclined to pull it. Should I?

  52. Bull says:

    “What happens when you mix truth with error? You get error.”

    Well, where is your truth? I guess you think that fire caused three buildings totalling 267 stories to collapse in thirty seconds total on 11th September, 2001. Truly Christians are some of the most ignorant and deluded people on the planet.

    I am a Christian but I don’t have my head buried in cotton wool like the vast majority of Christians do.

  53. “churchman, don’t worry about it. Just go back to sleep. We don’t need your help. We’ll take care of it ourselves.”

    Thanks.zzzzzzzzzzzzz

    (actually I wasn’t going to offer any help. Just glad to know I have you watching my back to get rid of the Masons”

  54. “I guess you think that fire caused three buildings totalling 267 stories to collapse in thirty seconds total on 11th September, 2001.”

    Yep. I don’t think it was George Bush, if that’s what you are getting at.

    “Truly Christians are some of the most ignorant and deluded people on the planet.”

    Yep.

  55. ““Protocols of the Elders of Zion”

    oh no. Don’t go there man. There are still people around who think that was all real, and all.

    Anyway, everything from 9/11, the tsunami and the increase in the price of Macdonalds cheeseburgers will be blamed on either the Masons or the Jews if you listened to some people.

    Chirpy, don’t tell anyone, but Phil Pringle’s father was a Mason, his grandmother was jewish, so it’s not just the hand signals that give him away.

  56. Okay, sorry chirpy, Bull etc. It’s just that I have heard so many crazy Christian conspiracies and urban legends over the last 30 years.

  57. And for the record, I don’t know anything about Phil Pringle’s family. Except that I have suspicions that they were actually….
    something ever more frightening.

    Kiwis.

    (On a serious note, do you Aussies realize how many pentecostal ministers there are in Australia who are originally from New Zealand?)

  58. Churchman thats really spooky *queue Twilight Zone music* do do do dooo do do do dooo..

    I’m interested in some conspiracy theories. Do I believe that the Royal family are actually shape-shifting reptiles who use mind-control techniques? No.

    But do I believe there are groups or classes of people that have common interests and tend to normalise their behaviour over time so that they increase those interests often at the expense of other groups? Yes, I do.

    Even if you look at the group of people that are Prosperity preachers, you can see a certain normalising of theology. A scratch-my-back-ill-scratch-yours type of mentality that emerges, and an I-dont-care-if-hes-a-off-track-I-wont-speak-against-him attitude.

    Its not a conspiracy, but its not far off.

  59. Yeah, churchman, I was a bit premature in jumping down your throat in my earlier post to you. I was reading a bit too much between the lines.

    However, why are you so flippant? Don’t you care about what is going on in the world today?

    Regarding New Zealand, it’s a hot-bead of occult practices and witchcraft. The two Pringles, Phil and Chris, were messing around with the occult before they got saved. I’ve heard Phil say so himself. So they come out to Australia and set up a church in order to subvert Christianity. I think that Phil is a Freemason. I heard him say once words to the effect:

    “If you want to earn you wings as a Christian leader, you have to put in the hard yards driving around giving church members lifts to and from church, ferrying old ladies back and forth from home groups and CLEARING BEER BOTTLES OUT OF MASONIC LODGES.”

    He said those last seven words almost exactly in January of 2006 at a 6:30pm service on either 1st January or 8th January. I heard them with my own ears and I didn’t mishear them. Why would a Christian minister need to clear beer bottles out of masonic lodges? I think he was just going with the flow and that’s what came out of his mouth. If he was holding Christian meetings in masonic lodges, then why?

    If you look at Phil Pringle’s itinerary on the C3 website, you can see that he is now spending the majority of his time in Asia, particularly Singapore, rather than in Australia. Do you know why he is doing this? It’s because everybody in Australia is sick of him and so his currency in Australia has deflated. Therefore he spends his time on the next big market of people who he can seduce and deceive – Asian Christians. He’ll prey on their trusting nature and preach whatever refuse he so desires. Whatever makes him feel special up their on stage, I guess? The Asians are a huge market and I expect that he should be able to extract a large amount of money from them.

    Regarding 9/11, it’s not important initially who caused buildings WTC 1, WTC 2, WTC 7 to collapse. What is important is that 267 stories fell in 30 seconds? That is impossible without controlled demolition.

  60. “However, why are you so flippant?”

    I’ve been called a lot of things in my time – but never flippant.

    “Don’t you care about what is going on in the world today?”
    Yeah, I care. But what should I do if I find out that Billy Graham and Phil Pringle are high lever Masons?

    “Why would a Christian minister need to clear beer bottles out of masonic lodges?”

    So that he can hold a meeting? So nobody knows he drank the beer? It was his part-time job? I don’t know.

    ” If he was holding Christian meetings in masonic lodges, then why?”

    Being relevant? Or probably just that it was cheap and available. I don’t know. Pringle doesn’t seem like a Mason to me. Wouldn’t a guy like him get bored with whatever it is they go on with?

    “Regarding 9/11, it’s not important initially who caused buildings WTC 1, WTC 2, WTC 7 to collapse.”

    It’s not??? Then why worry about it?

    “What is important is that 267 stories fell in 30 seconds”
    267 in 30 secs??

    “That is impossible without controlled demolition”
    Many engineers have explained that it is indeed possible for the towers to have fell without controlled demolition.

    But if you say there was controlled demolition, the onus is on you to show who did it, why, and how the secret has been able to have been kept in spite of the hundreds, or thousands of people who would have to have been in on it. Not to mention why the Democrats haven’t told everyone the truth.

    Anyway, I’ll stop there. I doubt anything I say will change your mind.

  61. I was talking about Fritz. This dude is now in prison for terrorist activities with far-right paramilitaries in the US of A.

    Collecting Guns and spreading extremist liturature and being exposed for this by his Christian associates and by his wife that he cheated on would indicate very strongly that Fritz, who went about with forged documents and aliases is not an upfront trustworthy source.

    Should we be watchful? Yes.
    Should we compare doctrine with the Bible? Of course.
    Should we trust God rather than men? Absolutely.

    Is Satan trying to establish a one-world-government and one-world-religion? Yes.

    Is Fritz the guy we need to listen to in order to see the signs of the times?
    Certainly not. He is very much a person who appears to practice what he was preaching against.

    Anyone who thinks the the book “Holy Blood, Holy Grail” is telling a true story about the bloodline of Jesus and indeed talks about bloodlines in particular is clearly clinically paranoid.

    I’ve read that book too.

    This same paranioa infected Europe and cost the lives of 6 million Jews.

    You can be paranoid if you want to. But it is pretty pointless. The Church will be subverted whatever we do or do not do. The only thing I am responsible for is me and my Family. As long as we remain faithful to the real Jesus, that’s what matters. The real Jesus is the one in the Bible. The whole Bible.

    We can have an impact on our local situation but not the national or global situation. We will also not be able to affect God’s timing for the end of History either.

    We are merely called to be faithful. That’s it.

    Isn’t that enough Chirpy?

    Shalom

  62. churchman, I have seen the light! I now realise that Pringle is indeed an apostle sent by Jesus Christ Himself to revitalise the church and that 9/11 was pulled off by Al-Qaeda who managed to slam dunk 267 stories in 30 seconds – three buildings with two planes – a remarkable accomplishment.

    Thannks alot for helping me to see things the way they really are. My head feels so much clearer now! It’s like I’ve been walking around in a fog.

  63. Bull, you are really lame.

    “This same paranioa infected Europe and cost the lives of 6 million Jews.”

    Prove it. It wasn’t that many. It was more like 300,000. There weren’t even any gas chambers. You’ve been had.

    “You can be paranoid if you want to. But it is pretty pointless.”

    Knowledge is not paranoia. It’s people like you who are so full of pride that they can’t even bring themselves to call truth something positive. So you call it paranoia. I suppose that’s better than calling me a conspiracy theorist but not much better. You’re insulting and you’re out of line.

    “The Church will be subverted whatever we do or do not do.”

    What a cop out. It is the responsibility of Christians to fight for the church. Clearly you have willingly buried your head in the sand and refused to take responsibility for the problems I have alluded to. I haven’t buried my head. I’m fighting for the truth. Why don’t you join me and then we can effect positive change in the church? Or are you scared?

    “The only thing I am responsible for is me and my Family.”

    Wrong. If you’re a Christian you’re responsible for the health of the body of Christ. If you’re a Christian, you have a calling to support the church of all believers, not just your own little neck of the woods. The internet gives us an unprecedented opportunity to effect positive change globally worldwide by blogging. Why not use this opportunity? OR WOULD YOU RATHER MAKE FUN OF CHRISTIANS LIKE ME WHO ARE STRUGGLING ON THEIR OWN IN GREAT DISCOMFORT?

    “As long as we remain faithful to the real Jesus, that’s what matters. The real Jesus is the one in the Bible. The whole Bible.”

    To remain faithful to the real Jesus means fighting for truth, not sitting back and thinking that the battle is impossible to win.

    “We can have an impact on our local situation but not the national or global situation.”

    Wrong, to put it extremely mildly. The national comprises the local and the global comprises the national. Therefore when we effect positive change locally, it improves the national and global situation. Furthermore, the internet enables us to effect positive change at the local, national and global level at the same time.

    “We will also not be able to affect God’s timing for the end of History either.”

    Prove it.

    You call yourself Bull? I think you should change your name to Ostrich or stand up and start fighting.

    I find that while Australians generally talk a good fight, most of them are in fact cowards. That is why Australia bumbles along and hardly anything ever improves.

  64. Also:

    “The Church will be subverted whatever we do or do not do.”

    Wrong. It is up to us to stop the church being subverted. Do you seriously think that God wants Satanists leading the church of Jesus Christ? It is our job to throw them out onto the street.

  65. churchman:

    ““Don’t you care about what is going on in the world today?”
    Yeah, I care. But what should I do if I find out that Billy Graham and Phil Pringle are high lever Masons?”

    You should expose them so that they get thrown out of the church.

    ““Why would a Christian minister need to clear beer bottles out of masonic lodges?”

    So that he can hold a meeting? So nobody knows he drank the beer? It was his part-time job? I don’t know.”

    I don’t know either. It seems likes a pretty strange thing for him to have said.

    “Pringle doesn’t seem like a Mason to me.”

    So what. That doesn’t mean anything.

    “Wouldn’t a guy like him get bored with whatever it is they go on with?”

    That doesn’t mean anything.

    ““Regarding 9/11, it’s not important initially who caused buildings WTC 1, WTC 2, WTC 7 to collapse.”

    It’s not??? Then why worry about it?”

    Because the first thing to do is to prove that the towers were brought down with explosives. Once that is proven, then we can talk about who did it. The two things are completely separate issues. One involves physics. The other involves a criminal investigation.

    “What is important is that 267 stories fell in 30 seconds”
    267 in 30 secs??

    WTC 1 = 110 stories in 11.5 seconds.
    WTC 2 = 110 stories in 11.5 seconds.
    WTC 7 = 47 stories in 6.5 seconds.

    ““That is impossible without controlled demolition”
    Many engineers have explained that it is indeed possible for the towers to have fell without controlled demolition.”

    Wrong. 1,473 verified architectural and engineering professionals and 11,630 other supporters
    have signed the petition demanding of Congress
    a truly independent investigation. See http://ae911truth.org

    “But if you say there was controlled demolition, the onus is on you to show who did it, why, and how the secret has been able to have been kept in spite of the hundreds, or thousands of people who would have to have been in on it. Not to mention why the Democrats haven’t told everyone the truth.”

    Wrong. The issue of who did it and how it was covered up is a separate issue altogether. However there are answers to all of these questions. They just take more explaining and more typing than I am prepared to do right now.

    “Anyway, I’ll stop there. I doubt anything I say will change your mind.”

    Yes, you’re right. You won’t change my mind because I have found the truth by diligently studying 9/11 while other people were watching television.

  66. Chirpy, you will always find someone who sounds intelligent somewhere making outrageous claims. You think Pringle is Satanist, 9/11 was an inside job, and the holocaust never happened? You probably also think the moon landing was faked.
    Usually conspiracy theorists buy the whole deal, and spend time on websites where everyone believes all the same conspiracies.
    Spend a week or two on websites debunking all the crazy crackpot theories then get back to me.

  67. Holocaust denier Chirpy?

    Well, I am sure you’d fit right in with Fritz’s Neo-Nazis.

    They found the camps … they found the gas chambers. 6 million jews were slaughtered. If you turn around and say “it was only about 300,000” as if that is somehow acceptable, then you are not credible.

    Jesus himself said, “there will be a great falling away, the love of most will grow cold.”

    I can’t stop anyone falling away, no matter what I say to them. Only the Holy Spirit and even then, if they choose to wilfully walk away despite all the warnings, what then?

    What if they go off and start listening to Fritz? They may start believing holocaust deniers. They get their beliefs of teh world all twisted round until they start thinking that lies are truth.

    What is the truth of the holocaust?

    It will also happen to the faithful still in the true church (which will be an underground church).

    Who will commit the atrocities? The state sanctioned church. This isn’t paranoia. It is merely a call to remain faithful to Jesus until the end no matter what happens.

    As far as 911 goes, why do you care about 3000 people who died. 300,000 doesn’t seem much of a problem to you.

    Is it because you hate them cos they are Jews?
    I shouldn’t have to remind you that Jesus was, is and always will be Jewish.

    Your friend Fritz is no believer in Jesus. Believe that. He’s a serial adulterer with a prediliction for adultery, bank robbery and neo-nazi lies.

    But, since you didn’t respond to that, who’s the Ostrich?

    Get real and grow a pair.

  68. Holocaust deniers should be made to visit Yad Vashem.

    I have no time for Chirpy’s egotistical, provocative conspiracy theories and anti-semitism.

    It’s a pity he doesn’t believe his Bible the same way he believes the tripe he publishes here.

    @Bull…’What does everyone else think? I am inclined to pull it. Should I?’

    Yes. The man is discredited and a sensationalist. His work should be buried under his soiled reputation. Let’s not further this stupid cause.

    There may be secret societies operating all over the planet, and some very powerful, including Illuminati and masonic lodges, and fraternities of this that and the other, but sensationalising their activities is a waste of gospel time. Most that is useful to discernment is already out there.

    The most important document we have in the battle against evil is the Word of God.

  69. On the holocaust: to compound the tragedy even more, the allies knew what was going on in the camps, and they had the ability to bomb the rail lines connecting to them, and they didn’t.

  70. “there weren’t even any gas chambers” – Chirpy

    Chirpy, I suppose you never read my reply to you on this issue.

    Here it is again:

    Submitted on 2011/01/04 at 9:28 am

    “Churchman, the holocaust was a hoax. There is no evidence that 6 million Jews died in the holocaust. How many died at Auschwitz? What is the latest figure that they’re touting?

    This is a massive fraud and having read extensively about the purported holocaust there is no way that I can accept that this occurred.” – Chirpy

    I can’t just read this and ignore it. It is one of the most horrendous untruths gaining popularity today.

    Here’s some personal evidence, unless you choose to believe I and my family are liars:

    My father in law visited Belsen when he was a kid, in 1946. His father was one of the soldiers in the royal engineers who helped liberate Belsen. When they liberated the camp, his father saw everything. Loads of dead bodies and living skeletons walking around. Some of his group of engineers gave them chocolate bars, in ignorance of how they’d affect starving people, which killed some of them.

    Later, he took his son, my father-in-law to see the camp. This was in 1946, after the war. He told his son at the time, that it was so bad that one day people would deny this ever happened, but that everyone is capable of doing this. He showed him around the entire camp. My father-in-law saw mounds where they’d buried all the bodies, and the ovens. This has left an impression which has lasted to this day.

    So deny it if you like, but my father-in-law saw it first hand one year after the war, and his father saw it first hand – when he went in to help liberate it.

  71. Chirpy, the ‘ovens’ I referred to were the gas chambers, in case you missed it. Do you believe that people like myself and my father-in-law are part of some giant conspiracy?? He is still alive. What he saw back in 1946 and heard from his father about 1945 are things which he has never forgotten.

    My father-in-law was taken there by his dad because his dad knew that people would deny this atrocity and he felt that it should never be forgotten. So he brought his young son in to help maintain the living memory for longer. People like yourself show how prophetic his understanding of human nature was.

  72. The liberation of Belsen.

    Transcript by the person who uploaded the video:

    recently heard a clip of BBC reporter Patrick Gordon Walker transmitting this.
    It has haunted me ever since.
    Dubbed into the original is a Richard Dimbleby transmission made around the same day.

    It’s a shortwave radio transmission made on 23rd April 1945 from Belsen concentration camp. It was recorded to acetate disc in New York.

    It’s now on youtube. The original is at the Smithsonian Institute.

    I know it’s not exactly easily listening and I hope I offend no one.

    Transcript of the original recordings:
    PATRICK GORDON WALKER:

    “This is London calling North America.

    The day I reached Belsen concentration camp, the fifth day of liberation, was a Friday, the day before the Jewish Sabbath.

    Something like half the surviving prisoners at Belsen were Jews, and the Jewish chaplain to the British second army, the Reverend L. H. Hardman, held an eve-of-the-Sabbath service in the open air in the midst of the camp. It was the first Jewish service that many of the men and women present had taken part in for six years. And Probably the first Jewish service held on German soil in absolute security and without fear for a decade.

    Around us lay the corpses that there had not been time to clear away, even after five days. Forty thousand or more had been cleared, but there were still one or two thousand around, and people were still lying down and dying in broad daylight in front of our eyes. This was the background to this open-air Jewish service.

    During the service, the few hundred people gathered together were sobbing openly, with joy of their liberation and with sorrow of the memory of their parents and brothers and sisters that had been taken from them and gassed and burned.

    These people knew they were being recorded. They wanted the world to hear their voice. They made a tremendous effort, which quite exhausted them. Listen:

    Singing of “Hatikvah.”

    L.H. HARDMAN: The children of Israel still liveth! ”

    Richard Dimbleby CBE
    “Here over an acre of ground laid dead and dying people. You could not see which was which. The living lay with their heads against the corpses and around them moved the awful, ghostly procession of emaciated, aimless people, with nothing to do and with no hope of life, unable to move out of your way, unable to look at the terrible sights around them. Babies had been born here, tiny wizened things that could not live. A mother, driven mad, screamed at a British sentry to give her milk for her child, and thrust the tiny mite into his arms, and then ran off, crying terribly. He opened the bundle and found the baby had been dead for days.

    This day at Belsen was the most horrible of my life.”

  73. Treblinka wasn’t even a so-called concentration camp. It was an extermination camp. The fit were gassed naked. The ill and infirm were directed to the medical tent. They passed through to a mass grave where they were simply shot in the back of the head.

    (The link has been removed. I will remove further links as I find them.)

  74. Don’t agree with removing the link, even though I find the views of holocaust deniers repugnant. Free speech means nothing if you only grant it to those who espouse views that you find acceptable.

    On a practical level, people who were more susceptible to his arguments will see his name in the comments and probably google the pdf and find it anyway. They are likely to think the removal of the link is part of some conspiracy.

    Having the link there is not promoting a view. Better to have it there and refute it, rather than removing the link.

  75. You guys are so simple.

    This link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll

    shows that nobody who believes that Jews were gassed has any clear idea how many Jews were killed at Auschwitz. READ IT. Was it 4 million? Was it 1.1 million? Was it 2.5 million?

    The museum at Auschwitz used to have a plaque saying that 4 million were killed at Auschwitz. Then they changed it to 1.1 million after 1989.

    THAT’S A DIFFERENCE OF 2.9 MILLION. THAT IS FRAUD.

    The truth is that about 300,000 Jewish prisoners died in concentration camps while imprisoned by the Nazis during WWII from causes such as starvation and infectious diseases such as typhus.

    PROVE TO ME THAT THERE WERE GAS CHAMBERS USED TO EXTERMINATE 6 MILLION PRISONERS AS PART OF AN INDUSTRIAL KILLING PROGRAMME. YOU CAN’T PROVE IT BECAUSE THERE WEREN’T ANY GAS CHAMBERS USED FOR KILLING. YOU’VE GOT NOTHING. THE GAS CHAMBERS ON DISPLAY IN AUSCHWITZ TODAY WERE SET UP AFTER WWII WAS OVER. THE WHOLE THING IS A MASSIVE FRAUD.

    The truth is that Zyklon-B was used as a delousing agent to rid prisoners of lice. It was NEVER used as a gas to kill prisoners.

    All you’ve got is your juvenille desire to win an argument rather than discover the truth like the people who put up this webpage:

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm

    The reason that apologists get so hysterical and froth at the mouth when somebody like me challenges the pathetic holocaust myth of the extermination of six million Jews is that they know that they have no evidence to back it up. So they whip themselves into a frenzy like you have in the posts above and USE THE BLUNT FORCE OF CENSORSHIP TO ENSURE THAT ANY OPPOSING VIEW NEVER SEES THE LIGHT OF DAY.

    Because you can’t counter my arguments which are based in truth you resort to attacking me with lame arguments.

    Truly the only way you can preserve your inflated egos and win this argument as is so obviously very important to you is by deleting what I post. It’ll be interesting to see if you do that.

    Me, I couldn’t care less whether I win an argument or not. What I care about is finding the truth of what is going on. Not sitting in front of the television for year after year, believing whatever I’m told like a good, obedient drone.

  76. So my last post under the name Chirpy was deleted. Is this how you pursue truth, by consigning posts to the memory hole so that they never see the light of day?

  77. Here is what I posted at about 1:30pm today, which went into moderation and then disappeared. It is retyped in different words:

    There is no evidence that six million Jews were killed during the holocaust. If you think that this is the number of Jews that were killed then prove it.

    This link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll

    shows that the death toll for Auschwitz was initially displayed as 4 million but later changed to 1.1 million after 1989.

    THAT IS A DIFFERENCE OF 2.9 MILLION WHICH POINTS DIRECTLY TO FRAUD.

    The truth of the holocaust is that about 300,000 Jewish prisoners died of starvation or infectious diseases such as typhus. There was no industrial killing programme aimed at exterminating six million Jews. There was no industrial killing programme full stop. These Jews were in prison because the Germans were sick to death of Jews subverting their country and, rightly or wrongly, considered them to be a security risk during WWII. It is a complex story that is worthy of study.

    Gas chambers that are currently on display at Auschwitz were set up after the end of WWII. This is fraud.

    Zyklon-B was NEVER used to gas Jews and kill them. It was, however, used extensively at camps like Auschwitz to delouse prisoners in order to rid them of lice.

    This link has alot of useful information that proves that the holocaust of six million is a fraud:

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm

    What amazing power you have displayed by deleting my earlier post. It just shows how fragile your defence of the holocaust of six million is.

    I came on this site to have a discussion about other material and you guys turned it into character assassination by attacking Fritz Springmeier instead of just reading his reference book which he wrote in 1991. I DIDN’T EVEN BRING UP THE HOLOCAUST. IT WAS BULL AT 11:03 PM, 11TH April, 2011 WHO BROUGHT UP THE HOLOCAUST TO TRY TO DISCREDIT THE BOOK THAT SPRINGMEIER WROTE. This is all too common – bring up the holocaust to shoot down whatever contentious truth rears its head.

    If you think you can just delete posts on a Christian website when you feel like it, you are very much mistaken. You have a responsibility to Jesus Christ to pursue truth which means letting people like me present information that is relevant to pursuing truth.

  78. Here is what I posted at about 1:30pm today, which went into moderation and then disappeared. It is retyped in different words:

    There is no evidence that six million Jews were killed during the holocaust. If you think that this is the number of Jews that were killed then prove it.

    This link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll

    shows that the death toll for Auschwitz was initially displayed as 4 million but later changed to 1.1 million after 1989.

    THAT IS A DIFFERENCE OF 2.9 MILLION WHICH POINTS DIRECTLY TO FRAUD.

    The truth of the holocaust is that about 300,000 Jewish prisoners died of starvation or infectious diseases such as typhus. There was no industrial killing programme aimed at exterminating six million Jews. There was no industrial killing programme full stop. These Jews were in prison because the Germans were sick to death of Jews subverting their country and, rightly or wrongly, considered them to be a security risk during WWII. It is a complex story that is worthy of study.

    Gas chambers that are currently on display at Auschwitz were set up after the end of WWII. This is fraud.

    Zyklon-B was NEVER used to gas Jews and kill them. It was, however, used extensively at camps like Auschwitz to delouse prisoners in order to rid them of lice.

    This link has alot of useful information that proves that the holocaust of six million is a fraud:

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm

    What amazing power you have displayed by deleting my earlier post. It just shows how fragile your defence of the holocaust of six million is.

    I came on this site to have a discussion about other material and you guys turned it into character assassination by attacking Fritz Springmeier instead of just reading his reference book which he wrote in 1991. I DIDN’T EVEN BRING UP THE HOLOCAUST. IT WAS BULL AT 11:03 PM, 11TH April, 2011 WHO BROUGHT UP THE HOLOCAUST TO TRY TO DISCREDIT THE BOOK THAT SPRINGMEIER WROTE. This is all too common – bring up the holocaust to shoot down whatever contentious truth rears its head.

    If you think you can just delete posts on a Christian website when you feel like it, you are very much mistaken. You have a responsibility to Jesus Christ to pursue truth which means letting people like me present information that is relevant to pursuing truth.

  79. Bull, you OWE me an explanation as to what is going on. Obviously I have offended you in one of my earlier posts. However you have an obligation to me to have the courage to tell me by posting on this website if I am banned rather than just deleting my posts like some passive-aggressive teenager.

  80. Here is what I posted at about 1:30pm today, which went into moderation and then disappeared. It is retyped in different words:

    There is no evidence that six million Jews were killed during the holocaust. If you think that this is the number of Jews that were killed then prove it.

    This link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll

    shows that the death toll for Auschwitz was initially displayed as 4 million but later changed to 1.1 million after 1989.

    THAT IS A DIFFERENCE OF 2.9 MILLION WHICH POINTS DIRECTLY TO FRAUD.

    The truth of the holocaust is that about 300,000 Jewish prisoners died of starvation or infectious diseases such as typhus. There was no industrial killing programme aimed at exterminating six million Jews. There was no industrial killing programme full stop. These Jews were in prison because the Germans were sick to death of Jews subverting their country and, rightly or wrongly, considered them to be a security risk during WWII. It is a complex story that is worthy of study.

    Gas chambers that are currently on display at Auschwitz were set up after the end of WWII. This is fraud.

    Zyklon-B was NEVER used to gas Jews and kill them. It was, however, used extensively at camps like Auschwitz to delouse prisoners in order to rid them of lice.

    This link has alot of useful information that proves that the holocaust of six million is a fraud:

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm

    What amazing power you have displayed by deleting my earlier post. It just shows how fragile your defence of the holocaust of six million is.

    I came on this site to have a discussion about other material and you guys turned it into character assassination by attacking Fritz Springmeier instead of just reading his reference book which he wrote in 1991. I DIDN’T EVEN BRING UP THE HOLOCAUST. IT WAS BULL AT 11:03 PM, 11TH April, 2011 WHO BROUGHT UP THE HOLOCAUST TO TRY TO DISCREDIT THE BOOK THAT SPRINGMEIER WROTE. This is all too common – bring up the holocaust to shoot down whatever contentious truth rears its head.

    If you think you can just delete posts on a Christian website when you feel like it, you are very much mistaken. You have a responsibility to Jesus Christ to pursue truth which means letting people like me present information that is relevant to pursuing truth.

  81. Here is what I posted at about 1:30pm today, which went into moderation and then disappeared. It is retyped in different words:

    There is no evidence that six million J__s were killed during the h___c___t. If you think that this is the number of J___ that were killed then prove it.

    This link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll

    shows that the death toll for Auschwitz was initially displayed as 4 million but later changed to 1.1 million after 1989.

    THAT IS A DIFFERENCE OF 2.9 MILLION WHICH POINTS DIRECTLY TO FRAUD.

    The truth of the h___c___t is that about 300,000 J___sh prisoners died of starvation or infectious diseases such as typhus. There was no industrial killing programme aimed at exterminating six million J___. There was no industrial killing programme full stop. These J___ were in prison because the Germans were sick to death of J___ subverting their country and, rightly or wrongly, considered them to be a security risk during WWII. It is a complex story that is worthy of study.

    Gas chambers that are currently on display at Auschwitz were set up after the end of WWII. This is fraud.

    Zyklon-B was NEVER used to gas J___ and kill them. It was, however, used extensively at camps like Auschwitz to delouse prisoners in order to rid them of lice.

    This link has alot of useful information that proves that the h___c___t of six million is a fraud:

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm

    What amazing power you have displayed by deleting my earlier post. It just shows how fragile your defence of the h___c___t of six million is.

    I came on this site to have a discussion about other material and you guys turned it into character assassination by attacking F___z S____g___r instead of just reading his reference book which he wrote in 1991. I DIDN’T EVEN BRING UP THE H___C___T. IT WAS BULL AT 11:03 PM, 11TH April, 2011 WHO BROUGHT UP THE H___C___T TO TRY TO DISCREDIT THE BOOK THAT SPRINGMEIER WROTE. This is all too common – bring up the h___c___t to shoot down whatever contentious truth rears its head.

    If you think you can just delete posts on a Christian website when you feel like it, you are very much mistaken. You have a responsibility to Jesus Christ to pursue truth which means letting people like me present information that is relevant to pursuing truth.

  82. Why can’t I post any reponses to all of the posts this morning about the h________ which I didn’t even bring up in the first place. You, Bull, brought it up at 11:03pm on 11th April, 2011.

  83. “Your comment is awaiting moderation.” Then it just disappears and is not published on the site.

    WELCOME TO GEORGE ORWELL’S 1984.

  84. So, Bull, you allow 8 posts this morning about the h________. Then when I try to respond with one post, you delete it.

    Yeah, that’s fair. Everything will be just peachy so long as I don’t talk about the h________ WHICH I DIDN’T EVEN BRING UP IN THE FIRST PLACE. YOU, BULL, BROUGHT IT UP AT 11:03PM ON 11TH APRIL, 2011.

  85. Bull, I’ve got a comment currently in moderation which is response to the 8 posts this morning about the holocaust. Why don’t you take it out of moderation and post it instead of deleting it? What are you afraid of?

  86. _Here is what I posted at about 1:30pm today, which went into moderation and then disappeared. _It is retyped in different words:

    _There is no evidence that six million Jews were killed during the holocaust. _If you think that this is the number of Jews that were killed then prove it.

    _This link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll

    _shows that the death toll for Auschwitz was initially displayed as 4 million but later changed to 1.1 million after 1989.

    _THAT IS A DIFFERENCE OF 2.9 MILLION WHICH POINTS DIRECTLY TO FRAUD.

    _The truth of the holocaust is that about 300,000 Jewish prisoners died of starvation or infectious diseases such as typhus. _There was no industrial killing programme aimed at exterminating six million Jews. _There was no industrial killing programme full stop. _These Jews were in prison because the Germans were sick to death of Jews subverting their country and, rightly or wrongly, considered them to be a security risk during WWII. _It is a complex story that is worthy of study.

    _Gas chambers that are currently on display at Auschwitz were set up after the end of WWII. _This is fraud.

    _Zyklon-B was NEVER used to gas Jews and kill them. _It was, however, used extensively at camps like Auschwitz to delouse prisoners in order to rid them of lice.

    _This link has alot of useful information that proves that the holocaust of six million is a fraud:

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm

    _What amazing power you have displayed by deleting my earlier post. _It just shows how fragile your defence of the holocaust of six million is.

    _I came on this site to have a discussion about other material and you guys turned it into character assassination by attacking Fritz Springmeier instead of just reading his reference book which he wrote in 1991. _I DIDN’T EVEN BRING UP THE HOLOCAUST. _IT WAS BULL AT 11:03 PM, 11TH April, 2011 WHO BROUGHT UP THE HOLOCAUST TO TRY TO DISCREDIT THE BOOK THAT SPRINGMEIER WROTE. _This is all too common – bring up the holocaust to shoot down whatever contentious truth rears its head.

    _If you think you can just delete posts on a Christian website when you feel like it, you are very much mistaken. _You have a responsibility to Jesus Christ to pursue truth which means letting people like me present information that is relevant to pursuing truth.

  87. specksandplanks NEVER, EVER did what you have done today by preventing me from posting a response to the 8 posts this morning about the holocaust.

  88. Here is what I posted at about 1:30pm today, which went into moderation and then disappeared. It is retyped in different words:

    There is no evidence that six million Jews were killed during the holocaust. If you think that this is the number of Jews that were killed then prove it.

  89. The truth of the holocaust is that about 300,000 Jewish prisoners died of starvation or infectious diseases such as typhus. There was no industrial killing programme aimed at exterminating six million Jews. There was no industrial killing programme full stop. These Jews were in prison because the Germans were sick to death of Jews subverting their country and, rightly or wrongly, considered them to be a security risk during WWII. It is a complex story that is worthy of study.

    Gas chambers that are currently on display at Auschwitz were set up after the end of WWII. This is fraud.

    Zyklon-B was NEVER used to gas Jews and kill them. It was, however, used extensively at camps like Auschwitz to delouse prisoners in order to rid them of lice.

    Next…

  90. I came on this site to have a discussion about other material and you guys turned it into character assassination by attacking Fritz Springmeier instead of just reading his reference book which he wrote in 1991. I DIDN’T EVEN BRING UP THE HOLOCAUST. IT WAS BULL AT 11:03 PM, 11TH April, 2011 WHO BROUGHT UP THE HOLOCAUST TO TRY TO DISCREDIT THE BOOK THAT SPRINGMEIER WROTE. This is all too common – bring up the holocaust to shoot down whatever contentious truth rears its head.

    Next…

  91. If you think you can just delete posts on a Christian website when you feel like it, you are very much mistaken. You have a responsibility to Jesus Christ to pursue truth which means letting people like me present information that is relevant to pursuing truth.

    End of post.

  92. Your job, Bull, as administrator of this site is to moderate discussion, something specksandplanks did very well, not delete people’s posts when they offend you.

    If I offended you, then say so and we can work it out.

    You were so busy bring up every ad hominem argument against Fritz Springmeier in your post at 11:03pm on 11th April, 2011 that you really annoyed me and I reacted in my next post in response to you by telling you what I really thought.

    But that doesn’t give you the right to start deleting my posts. We can do better than this. I can do better and so can you.

  93. I’m all for free speech too, but I have no problem with deleting insane holocaust denying comments.

    I don’t mind people bringing issues like how others were murdered too – gypsies, homosexuals etc.

    But to be it’s just too sad and infuriating that anyone could believe such nonsense in spite of all evidence. Denying the Civil War happened would be different in a way. But this involves too much suffering and the denyers have an agenda.

    But somehow, Chirpy needs to be educated. Personally, it’s embarrassing to me to know that someone could be witnessing about Jesus at work at lunch and the next day denying the holocaust. Very sad.

    This site doesn’t need to be hijacked by nonsense.

  94. Chirpy, my family members SAW the GAS CHAMBERS. One of them is still alive today. An EYE WITNESS. For your theory to be right, I must be a liar and part of a huge conspiracy, and so must my father-in-law. That means so must this website! Amazing!

  95. ravingpente, don’t be so hysterical. This is an investigation, not a soap opera.

    “For your theory to be right, I must be a liar and part of a huge conspiracy, and so must my father-in-law. That means so must this website! Amazing!”

    False. False. False. False.

    Regarding the gas chambers:

    > Where were/are the gas chambers?

    > How big was each gas chamber?

    > When did your family members see the gas chambers?

    The reason I’m asking these questions is that I am obviously interested in this subject and I have a genuine interest in your answers.

  96. I did not delete a single post … merely removed a link … However, anyone who is really determined to grab the link can simply google the pdf file name.

    If I wanted to delete you chirpy, you wouldn’t be able to come back on the site. I haven’t done this you will note … even though some previous posters have been banned by previous admins.

    Don’t presume to tell me my job either. I am doing it voluntarily for the benefit of all believers, not some special interest group.

  97. Bull, I am not a moron. The message above that I posted at 1:14pm on 12th April, 2011 went into moderation and then it disappeared. Now you have magically put it back up.

    For you to say, “I did not delete a single post”, is entirely disingenuous. You DID delete plenty of posts that I posted above trying to respond to the 8 posts this morning about the holocaust. I had to resort to posting my response in pieces in six successive posts from 4:04pm to 4:07pm in order to try to be heard.

    You’ve wasted a truckload of my time. I hope you’re happy with yourself, flexing your muscles as the moderator.

  98. ravingpente, I’ve read your earlier post at 9:33am on 12th April, 2011 and here is what I think:

    Your father-in-law’s father saw people walking around who were obviously starving. This is consistent with my belief that many Jewish prisoners died of starvation.

    Your father-in-law’s father saw the ovens in the camp crematorium used to incinerate dead prisoners. The camp crematorium is a necessary part of the camp to ensure the ongoing hygiene of the camp when prisoners die. Dead prisoners are incinerated in order to prevent the spread of disease resulting from decomposing corpses.

    Your father-in-law’s father saw dead people and mounds where the bodies had been buried. This is not evidence to support the contention that the cause of death was gassing.

  99. I don’t think anyone can persuade you, Chirpy. The youtube video I linked to is about the liberation of Belsen. I hope you watched it. Those starved people and the soldiers present at the liberation, including my father-in-laws dad testified about what happened, in the hope it would never happen again nor be forgotten. My father in law was taken there a year later, so that he could be witness to what remained of the atrocity and remember. He would not have been taken there if they had been civilised or just shown ‘crematoriums’ used for hygiene. But you will not be persuaded. I knew someone once who had your views. He also believed horrible anti-Semitic propaganda – it was due to his upbringing.

  100. ravingpente, I just wrote a really long post but lost it when I posted without filling in my name and email.

    I watched your video and it was painfully confronting:

    However it shows no evidence of gassing. There is obviously evidence of the dead and living Jewish prisoners being afflicted with starvation which is consistent with my belief that many Jewish prisoners died of starvation.

    It is important to learn about the events that led to the imprisonment of the German Jews. Prior to Hitler coming to power, there were powerful, wealthy German Jews in politics (ie. the Weimar Republic), in the media and in industry in German. There is plenty of evidence to show that they were subverting Germany. Hitler rose to power and cleared house of these Jews in politics. I have read a bit about these events and I am convinced of the veracity of what I have read. I encourage you to do the same. They are relatively complex events.

    I suspect that the rank and file German Jewish citizens who were imprisoned in Nazi Germany paid a heavy price for the corruption of the wealthier Jews in politics, the media and industry.

    Ultimately, none of this is directly relevant to the technical question of whether the German Jewish prisoners were gassed after being imprisoned. Based on my research I am absolutely convinced that they were not.

    ravingpente, you couldn’t help yourself, could you:

    “I knew someone once who had your views. He also believed horrible anti-Semitic propaganda – it was due to his upbringing.”

    Well, do you know what, ravingpente? If you are going to dish it out, you have to learn to take it.

    I knew a Jewish boy when I was at school. He was one of the nicest and most helpful people I have ever come across.

    Everything I have learnt about Jewish activity in the contemporary world that has soured my opinion of Jews, I have learnt in the last few years. Before that, I knew NOTHING about Jews, and I mean NOTHING. I revered them because of what I read in the Bible and because they appeared to me to be devout. I now know the following to be factually correct:

    > Jews run Hollywood and produce junk cinema that degrades society.

    > Jews run the global pornography industry that degrades society.

    > Jews run the US Congress via the powerful lobby group called the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.

    > Jews are over-respresented on the board of the privately-owned US Federal Reserve Bank. The Federal Reserve Bank issues currency as debt and receives the interest from the American people via their taxes.

    > In 1967, the Israeli Navy and Air Force fired upon an American intelligence-gathering vessel called the USS Liberty which was virtually unarmed. 34 American seamen were killed in cold blood and 170 were wounded. The problem with this is that America was Israel’s ally.

    This was not a case of mistaken identity. The American crew clearly identified themselves by raising the US flag on their ship but the onslaught continued.

    http://www.uss-liberty.com/2010/03/17/%E2%80%9Ctreason-on-the-high-seas%E2%80%9D/

    The purpose of the attack was to falsely place the blame for the attack on Egypt in order to draw the US into the Six Day war. I have researched this event thoroughly and I know that this was a set up. Read about it at your own risk if you can’t handle having your paradigm shattered.

    > Jews hate Christians with a vengeance. Anybody who knows the first thing about the Talmud knows this. Jews thinks that Christians are like cattle – beasts of burden – whose only purpose is to serve the interests of the Jews.

    > Jews in the Israeli intelligence called Mossad were heavily involved in pulling off the fraud of 9/11. The whole thing was a staged operation to create the justification in the mind of the American public for the US to wage war on Iraq and Afghanistan on behalf of Israel which was beginning to feel threatened and surrounded in the Middle East. It suits Jews to attack and weaken the Muslim countries that surround it.

    > Israel has over 200 nuclear warheads, yet it whines and complains when it thinks that Iran is trying to build one. What a joke. If you think this figure of 200 is overstated, you are mistaken.

    > Jews misquoted the Iranian president by saying that he wanted to wipe Israel off the map. He said no such thing. He said that the Israeli regime was unsustainable and that it would fail. He was right.

    > The US sends Israel billions of dollars in aid every year. This money is paid to Israel from the taxes that American citizens pay to the US government on their labour.

    > Many US Congress men and woman are dual citizens of both the US and Israel. Their allegiance is not to the US but to Israel. They are governing the US in the best interests of Israel.

    > US soldiers go to Middle East to fight and die for Israel.

    > You can’t display the Ten Commandments in a US school anymore and Christian nativity displays are virtually outlawed but menorahs are popping up everywhere in public places, even on the White House lawn.

    > Jews run Google and routinely manipulate search results relating to websites that expose nefarious Jewish activity.

    > Jews run YouTube and routinely censor videos that expose nefarious Jewish activity.

    > Jews invented the myth that six million of them were gassed during WWII to make everybody feel sorry for them so that they can continue looting and pillaging throughout the world without anybody complaining.

    The whole thing is getting really old – Jewish people acting as though critics like me are the subversive force in society when, in fact, all of the Jewish subversion going on is manifestly obvious.

  101. However, the question remains, did the Jewish elite (who are doing all the looting and pillaging even today) sacrifice the rank and file German Jews (who were imprisoned in Nazi Germany as a result of resentment towards Jewish subversion of Germany) in order to provide a cover (ie. obtain sympathy) for their future looting and pillaging?

    Or did the rank and file German Jews follow calls from the German Jewish elite for things such as a boycott of German goods and services and therefore seal their own fate (ie. imprisonment by the Nazis) by following the German Jewish elite?

  102. To answer earlier incorrect assertions. Some comments made by chirpy went into moderation as anyone post with 2 links, regardless of who posts them, currently goes into moderation.

    RP used to be admin for this site so I hope she can remember this.

    No one is saying the Jewish people are morally perfect.
    In fact, many accusations levelled against them may well be true. They control most of Hollywood for example. 12% of teh worlds scientists are Jewish, most of teh banking world is Jewish owned. Most of the scientific breakthroughs have been made by Jews.

    The Jewish people have blessed the world significantly. And it was a patriotic German Jew who invented Zyklon-B …

    from the wiki …
    In March 1919 Deutsche Gesellschaft für Schädlingsbekämpfung mbH (Degesch) was founded by a consortium of German chemical companies including Degussa, and initially led by chemistry Nobel laureate Fritz Haber. Haber had World War I experiences in the development of poison gas for the German chemical warfare program. At Degesch, Ferdinand Flury developed Zyklon A in 1920. Its development was a major advance over previous methods to deliver hydrocyanic acid for pest control because of its improved chemical stability and the presence of a warning odorant.[8]

    From 1929 onwards the U.S. used Zyklon B to disinfect the freight trains and clothes of Mexican immigrants entering the US.[11] Farm Securities Administration photographer Marion Post Wolcott recorded the use of cyanide gas and Zyklon B by the Public Health Service at the New Orleans Quarantine Station during the 1930s.[12]

    In early 1942, Zyklon B had emerged as the preferred extermination tool of the Nazi regime for both the Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek extermination camps during the Holocaust. The chemical claimed the lives of roughly 1.2 million people in these camps. Rudolf Höss, commandant of Auschwitz, said that the use of Zyklon-B came about on the initiative of one of his subordinates, Captain Frisch, who used the substance to murder some Russian POWs in late August 1941. The experiment was repeated on more Russian POWs, with Hoess watching, in September of the same year.[13] The emergence of Zyklon-B as the preferred chemical was a multi-stranded process; a good discussion can be found in Christopher Browning’s book, The Origins of the Final Solution.

    so, yes you can say that this stuff can be used to sanitise trains carrying passengers in rough conditions and even clothes. However, it is essentially a cyanide gas. Lethal to humans when breathed in.

    Have you studied Physics or Chemistry to degree level???
    I can’t argue with the Chemistry here … it is clear to me that the only use you can use this for is to gas humans. If you are going to use it to sanitise clothes and train carriages, you have to take all sorts of precautions …

    The Nazis tried to cover up the final solution. Even then, documentary evidence proved that the Nazis were exterminating Jews and that Hitler had approved it.
    ===================================================
    Now, regarding those comments in moderation, I will take a look at them and where there are duplicates I will remove them, but the original comment I will approve, so that there is no ambiguity here.

  103. @ Chirpy – you will ALWAYS go into moderation if you attach two or more links. It’s a WordPress thing…..

  104. This thread has become a disgraceful, ugly, lying rant featuring an anti-semite with no conscience whatsoever.

    Shameful!

  105. Bull, I should not have said the following as I did at the start of my post at 11:34pm on 11th April, 2011:

    “Bull, you are really lame.”

    I regret it and I am sorry. I need to learn not to react and make cutting remarks in my posts. It is not a good approach and it causes all kinds of problems on the blog. I will try to do better.

    I now understand that comments with two or more links go into moderation. To expedite your tidying up of my duplicate posts, please feel free to delete all of my posts from 2:54pm to 4:07pm on 12th April, 2011 inclusive in one fell swoop. If it saves you time, you needn’t even read them.

  106. Just so you know, Kipling, I didn’t see your post at 8:58am today until I had finished posting at 9:12am. I started composing my post before 8:58am when your post had not yet appeared and I did not refresh until after I had posted, which is when I saw your post at 8:58am for the first time.

  107. Zyklon B.

    I do not believe that Zyklon B was used to gas and execute Jewish prisoners and I will state why at a later time.

  108. Okay, Chirpy, he is what I think. I don’t think you are an evil person. I think you love the truth. But, what you have been reading is not only just plain wrong, but it’s disgusting.

    Really. In a few years when you read more, and listen to more people, I hope you go to everyone and apologize.

    You said a lot of things about Jewish people. They definitely have a lot of influence. That is good or bad depending on your beliefs. They are successful to such a disproportionate degree that it’s staggering. But I think that’s a great thing.

    But the one thing you are totally wrong about is this.

    “Jews invented the myth that six million of them were gassed during WWII to make everybody feel sorry for them so that they can continue looting and pillaging throughout the world without anybody complaining.”

    It’s just wrong. Do you realize that there are records of how many were killed, and there are documents outlining their plans to systematically kill more? Do you realize that their are Jewish families all over the world who have family members who died. So the numbers add up! They just do! As rp said, there are soldiers who liberated the camps – many of them as young as 19 who to this day can’t forget. Some lost belief in God after what they saw.

    And do you realize that to this day Germans don’t dispute the figures. Why? Because they can’t! They were there!

    The really incredible thing is that many of the people who deny the holocaust when backed into a corner end up saying that they deserved it.

    YOU NEED TO READ AND STUDY MORE!!!! Just don’t go to the lunatic fringe websites. Just keep reading them and you will never see reason. Do yourself a favor. Go and spend a few hours a day reading historical websites. (Skip the conspiracy sites for a week. ) Could you do that? What would you lose?

    I have read the websites you have talked about. really, they are rubbish. But, maybe if they are all a person read, and followed the links to similar websites, you could be forgiven for getting stuck in that ridiculous world.

    By the way, you could probably find a website arguing that the world is flat too. And if you checked up on that and the friends of that author, you would get further away from reality.

    Chirpy, I believe you love God. Think about it. What if you are wrong? I know you love the truth. Spend some more time reading the rebuttals. I am not going to give them all here because to me it’s just too ridiculous. It would be like arguing that ww2 didn’t happen. I wouldn’t know where to start.

    Chirpy, study – show yourself a workman. Please.

  109. churchman, I am capable of assessing information and deciding what information is true and what information is false.

    Regarding the six million figure, the numbers do NOT add up. Census figures of the world Jewish population before and after WWII show that the six million figure is an obscene absurdity.

    You say that there are records of Jews who were killed totalling six million altogether. Show me the records totalling six million.

    You say there were six million killed. Then there must be a resource somewhere which states how many were killed at each camp such as Auschwitz. Show me the breakdown of this six million figure.

    churchman, repeating a myth, ad nauseum doesn’t make it true. However I accept that you are sincere. I had no reason to question the holocaust until a few years ago. However I now refuse to live my life under the shadow of this absurd lie.

    I am not a “holocaust denier” as many would like to call me. I accept that the Jewish Germans were imprisoned in their multitudes during WWII in Nazi Germany and I believe that about 300,000 perished from starvation and disease. What I do not believe is that there was any deliberate effort by the Nazis to kill the prisoners via gassing.

    Show me evidence that points to the gassing of the Jewish prisoners. You can’t because there is none. What do we see in historical pictures? We see evidence of starvation. If there was an extermination programme via gassing, why would there be starving prisoners? There wouldn’t. They would simply be executed unless they are waiting around to be gassed. I do not believe that they starved while waiting around to be gassed.

    CHURCHMAN, YOU NEED TO REMEMBER THAT I DID NOT EVEN RAISE THIS TOPIC OF THE HOLOCAUST. BULL RAISED IT IN HIS POST OF 11:03PM ON 11TH APRIL, 2011. I AM SIMPLY FOLLOWING IT TO ITS LOGICAL CONCLUSION.

  110. “I am capable of assessing information and deciding what information is true and what information is false.”

    Obviously not.

    “Show me evidence that points to the gassing of the Jewish prisoners.”
    Physical evidence of gas chambers, architects of gas chambers, plans of nazis, confessions of Germans who were involved in the idea , Jews who escaped, Germans who turned on the gas,
    Jews who saw people gassed, Jews who buried people after getting gassed, Germans who lived around about who knew people who worked there, I could go on and on.

    So, Chirpy. Read the OTHER books besides the websites that talk about 300,000. And go to Europe. Or just look on the youtube for eyewitness accounts. It’s all there.

    By the way, have you ever been involved with david berg’s infamous cult, the Children of God? Because David Berg wavered between Holocaust denying, and then saying they deserved it.

    Disgusting

  111. churchman, what gas was used to kill the Jewish prisoners? What state was it in when it was administered – solid, liquid or gas?

    No, I have never been involved with David Berg’s infamous cult, the Children of God. Thank-you for asking.

  112. برو به شما خوش مشرب چیز خوب! به شما بگویم این صهیونیست کافر یا دو چیز….

    “Go Mr Chirpy you good thing! you tell these zionist infidel bastards a thing or two….”

  113. @ “I’m a dinner jacket” – nothing like a little light diversion. We’ve missed you!

  114. Thank-you very much, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad! I greatly appreciate your support which is something I don’t encounter very often at all.

    As you are already aware, Muslims have been set up via 9/11 during which the three WTC buildings including WTC 7 were demolished using explosives. Muslims have had depleted uranium weapons rain down upon them in Iraq and Afghanistan which have resulted in the most horrific birth abnormalities that I have ever seen. These pictures are freely available on the internet and nobody who views them will ever forget them. Ever. All of this is beyond tragic. What kind of person would authorise the use of depleted uranium weapons?

    My friend, you and I must stand together to expose the truth of what is going on in the world today. This idea that the German Jews were imprisoned in Nazi Germany because the Germans were “anti-semitic” is an absolute absurdity. Rightly or wrongly, the German Jews were imprisoned in Nazi Germany because they had been subverting Germany society and therefore the non-Jewish Germans no longer trusted them.

    Mahmoud, I do appreciate your support. Please be careful not to use inflammatory language on this blog such as “zionist infidel bastards”. You know as well as I do that if you use this kind of language then you risk being barred from posting for “anti-semitism”. So, in the interests of any further discussion about these matters, it is important that you restrain yourself.

    Thanks again for giving me your support. You have brought a smile to my face.

  115. Chirpy, Bull, I won’t be commenting on this subject again.

    It’s too ridiculous, distasteful, disturbing and could lead to the whole site being hijacked.

  116. Well, that leaves nothing left to discuss. I also would prefer to spend time doing other things.

  117. Mr Chirpy – you know friend of Mahmoud’s – Mr Ian (Williams)?? I must take you and Mr Ian on a tour of Mahmoud’s new nuclear facilities – I might even let you write “Achtung Juden” and face with big nose on an ICBM that we plan, Allah willing, to drop of Tel Aviv after William Tapley’s next installment of “Prophecy Unravelled – 3rd Eagle of the Apocylypse….”

    Mr Chirpy, Mahmoud has personal question – do they call you Mr Chirpy because you are a centrifuge short of a nuclear power station? or because you have a few camels running around loose in top paddock?

  118. Actually, when I sat my Higher School Certificate, out of about 50,000 candidates that year in NSW, I achieved a ranking in the top 1% of the state.

  119. “Actually, when I sat my Higher School Certificate, out of about 50,000 candidates that year in NSW, I achieved a ranking in the top 1% of the state.”

    Very impressive. Let God know that on the day of judgement; perhaps you’ll get a spot in the lake of fire that has a nice view.

  120. Mr Chirpy – ROFL, I guess modern History wasnt a subject on the HSC that year!! 🙂

  121. Greg, nobody on this site has been able to refute the claims I have made. Neither can you because I have spoken the truth.

    When you can’t refute the claims of someone you disagree with, do you resort to calling them a “moron” and seek to ban them? This is facile behaviour.

    This is exactly what the Jews have done with their anti-vilification laws relating to people like me who know that no Jews were deliberately killed by gassing. They have made it illegal in many countries to deny that Jews were gassed because they know that they cannot refute the arguments of people like me.

    It is not illegal in any country to deny that millions of Russian Christians were murdered during the course of last century, although they were. It is not illegal in any country to deny that tens of thousands of Rwandan Christians were massacred in 1994, although they were. But it is illegal in many countries to deny that six million Jews were killed during WWII by gassing. Why? The reason is that it did not happen. No Jews were deliberately killed by gassing.

    Greg, you need to exercise your mind, learn and present an argument, not think that you can sum up this entire, complex subject by saying, “Chirpy what you believe is false”.

  122. YOU ALL NEED TO REMEMBER THAT I DID NOT EVEN RAISE THIS TOPIC OF THE HOLOCAUST. BULL RAISED IT IN HIS POST OF 11:03PM ON 11TH APRIL, 2011. I HAVE SIMPLY FOLLOWED IT TO ITS LOGICAL CONCLUSION.

  123. Who is the person in charge of high school education in NSW. Maybe he or she should read this page….

    Anyway, this thread is about the new administrator. That’s you Bull. Having fun?

  124. This has become truly surreal …

    Churchill knew as early as 1942 that the Jews of europe were in serious trouble from Hitler and his Nazi goons from decoded transmissions as a result of cracking the ENIGMA code.

    But he decided not to bomb the railway lines to the camps. He didn’t want to give away the tactical advantage.

    That alone tells me enough.

    The Freedom of Information act has given the UK a valuable tool to help keep UK citizens free.

    Shalom

  125. Winston Churchill wrote a six-volume work titled “The Second World War” which totals 4,448 pages in length. The first volume was published in 1948 but he did not finish writing the entire six volumes until 1954.

    In all of these 4,448 pages, Winston Churchill does not make even one single mention of Nazi “gas chambers”, a “genocide” of the Jews, or of “six million” Jewish victims of the Second World War.

    Therefore it is manifestly obvious that Churchill did NOT know “as early as 1942 that the Jews of Europe were in serious trouble from Hitler and his Nazi goons”. It is manifestly obvious that the story that six million Jews were killed by gassing during the Second World War is both a myth and propaganda.

  126. I just read the above post…..

    “Therefore it is manifestly obvious…” Okay you NSWelshmen…
    The top 1% of your population comes up with logic like that.
    What’s going on with the education system down there???

  127. Chirpy, do a basic search regarding Churchill and the Holocaust.
    AND DON’T RESTRICT to websites written by anti-semitic LOONS!

    Seriously man, STUDY! I am appalled and embarrassed that an Australian Christian could believe such evil, idiotic stuff.

    Like I said, don’t just parrot stuff from anti-semitic sites, study!!!

  128. Chirpy, the fact that you could rejoice in the support of Mahmie Boy, and not realize what was going on is more than enough evidence that you need to broaden your knowledge base before you read the ravings of psychopaths on nutty websites.

    Please, study. You’ve obviously spent a few years imbibing conspiracy nonsense. Now go and study normal history.

  129. churchman, you, Moving On, ravingpente and me also should all stop throwing innuendo around. It is not Christ-like at all and it is not helpful in obtaining truth.

    I have not included Bull in that list because he has restrained himself like I have tried to do.

    I would NEVER have revealed that I scored so highly in my HSC if ‘Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’ had not posted the following at 8:39pm on 13th April, 2011:

    “Mr Chirpy, Mahmoud has personal question – do they call you Mr Chirpy because you are a centrifuge short of a nuclear power station? or because you have a few camels running around loose in top paddock?”

    What he posted is highly offensive – portraying me as some kind of mentally incapacitated person. Of course I am going to respond with my credentials. I would be stupid not to.

    I have made post after post relaying factual information about the causes of death of German Jewish prisoners in Nazi Germany. I am sick to death of you guys coming back with pointless remarks like you just made, churchman, which are a total waste of my very precious time and which do not advance the cause of obtaining truth.

    You guys need to decide whether you want to sink time into this site talking about sweet nothings like you have just posted or whether you are actually serious about obtaining truth. If you decide on the former then I will severely curtail the time I spend on this site.

    The approach you guys have taken of consistently attacking me and trying to paint me as mentally incapacitated is the very same approach that is used in mainstream society to prevent truth like I am trying to present here from ever surfacing.

    What you do not understand, and what is MANIFESTLY OBVIOUS is that my credentials and my background are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Everything I have posted can be checked independently without requiring any knowledge of who I am. This is simple logic. Who I am does not make the material I have relayed true or untrue. Its veracity or otherwise exists in entire independence of me or anything associated with me.

    Attacking the messenger to prevent a truthful message from gaining ground is a common trick used ad nauseum in mainstream society that is intellectually dishonest and nonsensical.

  130. Note that the Nuremburg trials were held in 1945 and 1946, which was BEFORE Winston Churchill published the first volume of “The Second World War” in 1948 and BEFORE he finished writing all six volumes of this work in 1954.

    Yet in all of these 4,448 pages of the six volumes of “The Second World War” that he wrote, Winston Churchill does not make even one single mention of Nazi “gas chambers”, a “genocide” of the Jews, or of “six million” Jewish victims of the Second World War. The reason is that Winston Churchill knew that the story that six million Jews were killed by gassing during the Second World War is both a myth and propaganda.

  131. I have read Churchill and biographies of Churchill.

    The Roy Jenkins biography is a masterpiece. Churchill would never admit in writing that he knew about the death camps. He was writing history about himself after all.

    No it all came out from the published minutes of then secret meetings. 50 or 60 year rule meant that stuff couldn’t be published until that time period was up. So, the only person who could tell the world what the British Government knew during the war was Churchil or any subsequent Prime Minister, assuming that it was in the National Interest.

    Which it might be but certainly not in his personal interest, particularly when he was depserate to be re-elected in 1951, which is why he wrote his books about the war, to keep public interest and personal support for Churchill high.

    C’mon. He isn’t about to confess to everyone that he had the “moral courage” to let a lot of jewish civilians be systematically murdered by the nazis.

    It could have cost him the election as it would have given the Labour Party a field day at the polls.

    Churchill’s lack of candour with respect to the Extermination camps is therefore quite understandable and is therefore not proof of a lack of knowledge of them during the war.

    Official Secrets subsequently released in the 1990’s and later is sufficient proof of knowledge of the trouble the Jews were in.

  132. Winston Churchill was a Freemason. So was Ronald Reagan.

    Phil Pringle expresses his admiration for the leadership of both of these Freemasons in his book, “You the Leader”.

  133. Actually Chirpy, I have been as kind as I could.
    I think you love God and have a desire to know the truth.
    That’s why I implore and beseech you to study, and spend some time studying resources that give the opposing view. Will you do that please?

  134. churchman, you are so patronising.

    Studying is reading and I have spent plenty of time doing that.

    The opposing view is what is taught in secondary school modern history. It is entrenched in the curriculum.

    You have absolutely no idea how the game is played. It is not me who is a cause for despair but you.

  135. Great to hear from you MN!

    Memorable Churchill quotes:

    Highborn noble lady to Churchill: “You are drunk, Winston, very drunk!”

    “Yes I am, and you are ugly, but in the morning, I’ll be sober.”
    ====================================================

    “History will be very kind to me … for I intend to write it.”

    ====================================================

    speaking of Anthony Eden (his successor as Prime Minister) “I don’t think he can do it.” … and Eden didn’t.

    ====================================================

    So, Chirpy refers to Churchill as long as Churchill seems to corroborate him and then when that isn’t the case, Churchill is suddenly a mason!

    This is not an argument worth pursuing. Chirpy, go away and believe you have won an argument here … you haven’t, btw, but feel free to go away with bragging rights if you like. You haven’t been able to prove your case as there is overwhelming documentary evidence to the contrary whereas you claim an international conspiracy to invent something.

    In 1945 European Jewry was on it’s knees. As camps were liberated, footage was appearing across the world in newsreels. It was too big to cover up and the allies were too exhausted to invent it.

    Believe in this conspiracy theory if you like but I don’t believe your evidence. I don’t accept your sources as being rational or independent. They have an agenda.

    It comes down to belief. How well do you know your bible? How well do you know the book of revelation?
    How much do you know about how bible prophecy works?

    Very often a prophet predicts something which comes true in order for the hearer to be convinced that the latter thing will come true also. Sometimes, as in Daniels vision of the abomination of desolation, there is a foreshadowing that comes true but that the prophecy also refers to an ultimate happening also.

    What do we actually know about the future that is contained only within the pages of your Bible?

    The true church will shrink … not just nominal members will drift away but that those who used to love God will turn away from Him also.

    Then the Gospel will finally be preached to all the Nations … (no promise that they will hear and understand it mind)

    Then the end will come.

    What will happen in the end?
    The abonation of desolation (the anti-christ or ultimate false-Christ) will be worshipped in the temple while Jerusalem will be trampled under the feet of the Gentiles.

    Jesus returns in Glory.

    Armies will gather to crush Jesus and all the returned believers.

    Jesus kills them all with a word.

    Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is lord.

    Why worry?

    Jesus Wins!

    Shalom

  136. Not staying Bull.

    Just dropping to see how things are, and I can see there have been some changes, and some things are ‘similar’.

    In our Lord I wish you all the best with your step into the breech.

    May you hear His voice, and honour His leading, no matter what mayhem is happening around you. May He accomplish His purposes in and through you.

    His blessing be upon you and your family.

    Hi RP, Moving On, Wazza, Gregsta et al

    Cheers.

  137. Bull:

    “So, Chirpy refers to Churchill as long as Churchill seems to corroborate him and then when that isn’t the case, Churchill is suddenly a mason!”

    Neither my posts about Churchill nor your posts about Churchill support the contention that the German Jewish prisoners in Nazi Germany were killed by gassing.

    “Chirpy, go away and believe you have won an argument here … you haven’t, btw, but feel free to go away with bragging rights if you like.”

    I haven’t been making these posts about the holocaust for the sake of my ego. I am interested in obtaining truth rather than winning an argument. Perhaps you think that bragging about winning an argument is normal behaviour. I do not.

    “You haven’t been able to prove your case as there is overwhelming documentary evidence to the contrary whereas you claim an international conspiracy to invent something.”

    I have asked all of you time and time again to show me documentary evidence and none of you have showed me anything except footage of starving German Jewish prisoners which ravingpente provided.

    Bull, you scoff at the idea of an international conspiracy, yet the world is run by a global central banking system which is cloaked in secrecy and is not understood to any significant degree by the average person because the people who run it do not want it to be understood. I don’t understand it either. It has deliberately been designed to be incomprehensible. Anybody who thinks that it is run for the benefit of the ordinary citizen such as you or I is extremely naïve. However such a person is not to blame for their naivety. They have been conditioned and brainwashed to believe that it is being run for the benefit of the ordinary citizen. I must state, however, that now that we’re on the other side of the global financial crisis of 2008, there is actually scarcely anybody who still believes that the global central banking system is being run for the benefit of the ordinary citizen.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-real-housewives-of-wall-street-look-whos-cashing-in-on-the-bailout-20110411?page=1

    This article is dynamite and makes for highly engrossing reading. I understood what happened in the bailout for the first time after reading this article.

    “In 1945 European Jewry was on its knees. As camps were liberated, footage was appearing across the world in newsreels. It was too big to cover up and the allies were too exhausted to invent it.”

    Is that why Churchill didn’t mention gassing once in his 4,448 page work titled, “The Second World War”, which he wrote from 1948 to 1954?

    “Believe in this conspiracy theory if you like but I don’t believe your evidence. I don’t accept your sources as being rational or independent. They have an agenda.”

    You refuse to even look at the evidence I have provided because you have decided in advance that it is not credible according to your preconceptions. This is not an objective method of approaching this subject. While you refuse to scrutinise evidence that doesn’t fit your preconceptions, I am capable of assessing all evidence and deciding what I believe is true and what is false.

    You show your ignorance by using the term “conspiracy theory”. I tell you the truth, Bull, Satan absolutely LOVES this term and he absolutely LOVES it when people use it because it is a very effective way of suppressing truth. Just keep on saying it and you’ll perpetuate a lot of criminality which has gone unchecked, committed by people who value your support highly.

    “It comes down to belief.”

    False. It comes down to facts.

    “How well do you know your bible?”

    Well enough. I’ve read through it at least four times in its entirety, although there are a few books of the minor prophets such as Obadiah that I have never read. Hopefully you can have a field day with this oversight on my part.

    “How well do you know the book of Revelation?”

    Very well. I’ve read it at least four times.

    (This is getting tedious.)

    “What will happen in the end?
    The abonation of desolation (the anti-christ or ultimate false-Christ) will be worshipped in the temple while Jerusalem will be trampled under the feet of the Gentiles.”

    It’s already begun. One can see that Jerusalem is beginning to be surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20). I believe that the world is poised on the edge of WWIII. I hope that it doesn’t eventuate because most of the major events of the last ten years have been contrived.

    “Why worry?”

    “Why worry”, indeed. Why worry about the Muslims being slaughtered in Iraq and Afghanistan for no good reason? Why worry about the incomprehensible suffering being inflicted on newly-born Muslim children in Iraq and Afghanistan as a result of depleted uranium weapons? (I dare you to Google the pictures by typing “depleted uranium deformities” into Google. I should warn you that these images will make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.) Why worry about the Palestinians being confined by the Jews to Gaza in concentration camp-like conditions?

  138. Unless somebody has got something substantive to say about this subject of the Jewish holocaust, I don’t want to talk about it any more. It’s a waste of time.

  139. @Chirpy…’It’s a waste of time’.

    You’re right there, Chirpy. The thing is, it’s your baby, and you let it scream. You could have said nothing, in view of the fact that we’ve had this out with you and others before.

    You’re so totally wrong, of course, about the holocaust, but, despite what you claim, that’s not all you factored in. You made an abysmal attack on Jews and Israel on April 13, blaming them for just about everything you could.

    https://signposts02.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/new-administrator-for-sp02/#comment-19093

    That sentiment is called anti-semitism.

    You made the decision to waste everyone’s time with your ill-informed conspiracy theories, so don’t blame others.Take responsibility for your own actions.

    By the way, if you curse Abraham, you curse God. Always remember this.

  140. I just want to correct something I said above at 9:45am:

    “I’ve read through (the Bible) at least four times in its entirety, although there are a few books of the minor prophets such as Obadiah that I have never read. Hopefully you can have a field day with this oversight on my part.”

    THIS IS FALSE. I have read every book of the Bible, including all of the minor prophets. I have a Bible reading plan whereby I read from the beginning to the end of the Old Testament while reading from the beginning to the end of the New Testament (although I finish the New Testament sooner and so go back to the start of the New Testament, which, for my purposes is 1 Corinthians because I cycle through the first six books of the New Testament separately). However I keep cycling through the following books all the time:

    Psalms
    Proverbs
    Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
    Acts
    Romans

    When I reach the minor prophets in the Old Testament, I’m usually so excited to be getting to the end of the Old Testament that I don’t pay as close attention to these books as I should.

    The reality is that I need to spend less time blogging and more time reading the Bible.

    Blogging should come with a warning:

    “Blogging is addictive.”

    Which it is.

  141. Kipling, I’m glad you linked to that post of mine. I’m very proud of what I exposed.

    You have misused Scripture. Genesis 12:1-3 states the following:

    Now the Lord had said to Abram:

    “Get out of your country,
    From your family
    And from your father’s house,
    To a land that I will show you.
    I will make you a great nation;
    I will bless you
    And make your name great;
    And you shall be a blessing.
    I will bless those who bless you,
    And I will curse him who curses you;
    And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

    To expose the misdeeds of the Jews as I have done in my post to which you linked is not the same as cursing the Jews.

    Let me repeat, exposing somebody’s misdeeds is not the same as cursing them.

    The sad fact is that this false teaching has crept into the church that to expose the misdeeds of Jews is tantamount to cursing the Jews and therefore attracts a curse from God on account of Genesis 12:3. This is false teaching.

    According to your logic, the Jews can engage in whatever criminality they like and whoever exposes their criminality will be cursed by God for cursing the Jews. That is theological nonsense.

    But, I’ve got to hand it to you. You hit all the high notes – “anti-Semitism”, invoking Genesis 12:3.

    Too bad for you that none of that has any effect whatsoever on me because I’ve escaped from my former brainwashed state.

  142. Re: the holocaust

    It’s SICKENING to think that ANYONE would be killed for belonging to the “wrong” race, or the “wrong” faith.

    What a sick world.

    It’s the MORAL fool who is the real fool. The idiotic man who is really quite clever.

  143. “The opposing view is what is taught in secondary school modern history. It is entrenched in the curriculum.”

    Yes, that is correct. I’m not trying to be patronizing. I was going to give up on you, but I won’t. Is it the case that you read the opposing view in high school, but in the last few years your have read the arguments for the current view?

    If so, please do what I say. Go read some websites which refute the “holocaust was a hoax” theory. All of your questions regarding gasses, numbers of Jews, Churchill, oven size and everything is answered.

    And if you read more you will read testimonies of Jews who escaped, liberating soldiers, and the GERMANS who participated!. Germans do not deny it.

    Have you recently read the refutations of holocaust hoax sites?
    I’ll say it again. Please do.

  144. Also wondering if you admit that non-Jewish people who also in concentration camps? If so, what is your evidence?

  145. Ian Vincent said:

    “It’s SICKENING to think that ANYONE would be killed for belonging to the “wrong” race, or the “wrong” faith.

    What a sick world.

    It’s the MORAL fool who is the real fool. The idiotic man who is really quite clever.”

    Ian, you are absolutely correct and I think that you have raised a critically important point.
    The images that ravingpente supplied in the following YouTube video of starving German Jewish prisoners are highly disturbing:

    No human being deserves to be imprisoned and end up like that. I am not 100% sure what the cause of the starvation was because I have not researched it, but it looks like the starvation could possibly amount to genocide of the German Jews by the Nazis. I do not know if that is the case. I would need to research it.

    I have not researched it sufficiently, but it appears to me that the manner in which the Nazis dealt with the German Jews by imprisoning them which resulted in their starvation was the wrong course of action for the Nazis to take.

    I am certain that it was the actions of powerful German Jews in industry, the media and in politics, whereby they subverted Germany (their own country of residence) prior to Hitler’s rise to power that led to the powerful feelings of resentment towards the German Jewish population as a whole, which feelings were held by the non-Jewish Germans.

    Off the top of my head, without sufficiently researching the subject of the events leading up to the imprisonment of the German Jews, I do not believe that the action that the Nazis took of imprisoning the German Jews is acceptable. Furthermore, I believe it was the wrong course to take and a morally reprehensible one. Truly, the pen is mightier than the sword. Therefore the Nazis and Germans should have dealt with the Jewish subversion by exposing it and neutralising it by broadcasting what was going on. Actually going ahead and imprisoning the German Jews as a further step does not appear to be morally defensible in any way. Without doing further research, I cannot, as a Christian or even simply a human being, support it.

  146. churchman, I did not study any modern history in high school.

    I am aware of claims that non-Jewish people were held in the Nazi concentration camps. I have not investigated these claims, therefore I don’t want to comment on them.

    My primary contention is that the Nazis did not deliberately use the method of gassing to kill German Jewish prisoners. I have spent a considerable amount of time researching this issue and I cannot find any evidence which convinces me as somebody with a forensic mind that the Nazis deliberately used the method of gassing to kill German Jewish prisoners.

    Furthermore, I do not believe that there is credible evidence to support the contention that six million Jews were killed by the Nazis during WWII. I believe that this figure is patently false. In fact, I not only believe it to be false. I know it to be false beyond any doubt. This contention is not a defensible contention.

    In the order of 300,000 German Jewish prisoners died in concentration camps as a result of starvation, disease and death by shooting by the Nazis. There is evidence to suggest that the Nazis shot a number of German Jewish prisoners. I have not researched this evidence but it appears, on face value, to be credible evidence.

    Thank-you for your comments. This is profitable discussion.

  147. Chirpy, Here is what I think.

    You started sentences like this.

    “I am not 100% sure what the cause of the starvation was because I have not researched it, but it looks like..”

    ” I do not know if that is the case. I would need to research it.”

    “I have not researched it sufficiently, but it appears to me…”

    “Off the top of my head, without sufficiently researching the subject of the events leading up to the imprisonment…” ” Without doing further research…”

    “I have not investigated these claims, therefore I don’t want to comment on them.”

    ” I have not researched this evidence but it appears on face value,..”

    Chirpy, I believe you when you say you are smart. I believe you when you say you got high grades.
    But here is the problem. Given that the holocaust is SO WIDELY accepted as fact – then the onus is not on the Jews or the NSW education dept to prove it, the ONUS is on YOU to disprove it.

    You haven’t researched enough. You are bold enough to argue with what 99% or more of qualified historians and eyewitnesses say and yet you admit you haven’t researched even basic things like the events that led up to persecution, and what other people were killed, how, and why. In short, you haven’t done enough research.

    Please. Finish your research. But like I said – please do research on site OTHER THAN the ones you have done.
    Look up testimonies of those who worked there, those who escaped and the allied soldiers.
    Did you also know that the Nuremburg trials are now on youtube?

    Thanks for your honesty.

  148. Actually thanks to you Chirpy, I read again about Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Corrie Ten Boom.

    I probably am overboard when it comes to history, but I think young Christians should read more about famous Christians of all different streams and how they lived out their faith in tough times.

  149. I’ve read enough material to come to the conclusion that no German Jews were killed by gassing. That is enough to satisfy me for the time being.

    Who has time to spend scores of hours doing further research?

    The deception that six million Jews were gassed is consistent with the prevalence of deception in these end-times? Or do you expect these end times to be characterised by widespread enlightenment and truth?

  150. churchman, having read several of your posts, I believe that you are more interested in winning an argument than pursuing truth. This is a fundamental character flaw which points to intellectual dishonesty.

  151. In the Wikipedia entry on Dietrich Bonhoeffer, which I consider to be an unreliable source of information, there is not one single reference to:

    > gas
    > gassing
    > chamber
    > zyklon b
    > genocide
    > million
    > millions

    Why?

    Based on my reading of the following website, I strongly suspect that Dietrich Bonhoeffer was not a bona fide follower of Jesus Christ but a ‘Christian’ imposter:

    http://watchpraystand.blogspot.com/2009/10/dietrich-bonhoeffer-is-no-christian.html

    churchman, the rabbit hole is deep and it concerns me that you are unwilling to investigate it. Everybody’s time is valuable, including mine. I will not be spending alot of time to persuade you personally of anything because I do not believe that you are worth the trouble.

  152. “’ve read enough material to come to the conclusion that no German Jews were killed by gassing.”

    No you haven’t. You’ve just read Holocaust Hoax materials.
    Don’t you understand that you just can’t go and read only stuff from those sites?

    “Who has time to spend scores of hours doing further research?”

    You do. If you had time to spend on Holocaust Hoax websites you have time to research the truth. It would only take 30 minutes of your time.

    There were over 9 million Jews in Europe before the Holocaust. Two thirds were murdered. The onus is on YOU to prove it a lie. You live in Australia right? Do you know any Jewish people? Ask them about it. Probably most Jewish people in Australia have family members who died in Europe.

    If you don’t spend the time to study NON-holocaust hoax sites, you don’t love the truth. If you really are a Christian and love Jesus – study. (Yes, this is a serious issue.)

    In the Name of Jesus, grow up and study!

    Sorry, Bull, but it’s bad enough that the net is full of this garbage, but it’s hard to take when a supposedly born again Christian has been deceived.

    To me this isn’t funny.

  153. churchman, please read the comment I just posted above yours at 10:07pm.

    Regarding your census figures on the Jewish population of Europe before and after the holocaust, please provide credible sources involved in the collation of census data.

  154. Chirpy, I don’t care whether you think I am worth the trouble or not.

    I have examined the theory that the holocaust was a hoax.
    I have. Yep. I’ve read websites with so called expert testimony about how long it takes to burn bodies etc etc etc.

    So, why are you so afraid of studying NON-holocaust hoax websites – from Jewish, German, neutral – you name it, it’s all there.

    I don’t care about winning an argument. In fact, I won’t argue. Just promise me that you will read the evidence FOR the holocaust. Will you do that?

    And yes, I know that different streams of Christianity would have different opinions about Boenhoffer’s faith.

    btw, Do you personally know any Jews? Do you know any Germans? Poles? Have you been to Europe?

  155. To show that I am not into arguing, I won’t bother disputing about Masons, Satanists, 9/11, moon landings, Stan Deyo, or anything else you might be into.

    But you owe it to yourself to study up properly on what happened to the Jews.

  156. “Just promise me that you will read the evidence FOR the holocaust. Will you do that?”

    I’m not going to promise you anything. I think that you are irritating and patronisng. You don’t even have the discipline to properly frame the debate since your statement above implies that I don’t think that the holocaust happened. I know that it happened. What I dispute is that six million Jews were killed by gassing.

    You are proving yourself to be a waste of my time.

    You said:

    “To show that I am not into arguing, I won’t bother disputing about Masons, Satanists, 9/11, moon landings, Stan Deyo, or anything else you might be into.”

    This is insulting innuedo that seeks to characterise my beliefs about this issues which I have never revealed. Jesus Christ would not have said this. You have fallen short.

  157. Again:

    Regarding your census figures on the Jewish population of Europe before and after the holocaust, please provide credible sources involved in the collation of census data.

    Since you’re so keen on study, I would appreciate it if you would please find me credible sources as above and post them on this blog.

  158. At 10:26pm, I said:

    “This is insulting innuedo that seeks to characterise my beliefs about this issues which I have never revealed. Jesus Christ would not have said this. You have fallen short.”

    What I should have said was:

    “This is insulting innuedo that seeks to characterise my beliefs about issues such “moon landings” and “Stan Deyo” (???) which I have never revealed. Jesus Christ would not have said this. You have fallen short.”

  159. @Chirpy…the anti-semitism tag was based on more than your ignorance of the holocaust. It was consistent with your stupid claims of Jewish complicity in crimes for which you have zero evidence, such as the Twin Towers collapse (there were known Islamist militants flying those aircraft), and are pure conspiratorial balderdash.

    You are an anti-semite.

    You are cursing Israel.

    We are not here to accuse Israel, but to work towards bringing them into Christ. Your unchristian slander helps no one.

  160. “there were known Islamist militants flying those aircraft”

    Why haven’t they been brought to trial yet in a court of law?

  161. @Chirpy…’Why haven’t they been brought to trial yet in a court of law?’

    Perhaps because they were suicide bombers! Hard to take a dead man to court!

  162. Here’s another link for my last post:

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/04/04/20110404-11-mastermind-suspect-military-trial04-ON.html

    Kipling, do you know why Obama wants trial by military commission for the alleged 9/11 hijackers and not trial by civilian court?

    It’s because Obama wants to cover up the fact that 9/11 was a staged intelligence operation (ie. a set-up).

    9/11 happened more than 9.5 year ago and yet the alleged hijackers have not yet been charged. However hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan have perished as a direct result of the wars on Iraq and Afghanistan. Without 9/11, these wars would never have been allowed by the American public.

    It’s a set-up, Kipling. This is how the game is played and it’s been this way for a long time.

  163. I’ve had enough of you, Chirpy! You’re clearly not at all sensible.

    Do you see devils on doorknobs also?

    It’s the gospel we preach, not old wives tales. Neither are we encouraged to get into foolish disputes about such things, so I’ll leave you to your delusions.

    Is there something else we can discuss, Bull?

  164. “Perhaps because they were suicide bombers! Hard to take a dead man to court!”

    Yeah, I have to admit, you’ve got a point. I hadn’t really thought that one through! But if you read the links, you’ll see what I mean.

  165. “I hadn’t really thought that one through!”

    “I have not researched it sufficiently,”

    So, before you say the holocaust was a hoax, research sufficiently and think things through. And go to your local synagogue and ask people how their families came to be in Australia.

  166. Kipling you should get down from your high-horse or ride away on it.

    Some of the things Chirpy is saying are worthy of consideration. The BBC published an article on 23/9/01 that four of the hijack suspects were alive and well http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1559151.stm

    Building 7 at the WTC fell down by itself, no plane crashed into it – thats strange in itself. Even stranger is that the BBC reported that it had fallen down before it happened. Their explanation: “we made a mistake”. If you reported a crime to the police before it happened you would be reasonably suspected of being involved with the crime or in contact with those who were. Not the BBC however, they just made a mistake.

    On the subject of Holocaust revisionism, I dont deny that Jews were gassed. But I think that the subject is worthy of study and the actions of the Nazis, the Allies and even some Jewish organisations around the world are to be critically examined to see if they exploited the situation or covered it up. I admire Chomsky for supporting free speech, even of Holocaust deniers although he has experienced a lot of anti-semitism himself.

  167. wazza2, none of what Chirpy is saying about the ‘evils’ of the Jews is worth discussing seriously.

    I fail to see how you can sit on your lofty, gold plated, turbo-charged high horse, as you do, and tell others to get down, and be taken seriously.

    Chirpy’s claim that Mossad brought down the towers is ludicrous. It’s just a Jew-bash! The rest of his claims are basic anti-semetic conspiracy theories which have been bandied about for years.

    Your claim that the US took down their own towers is equally idiotic. If you believe much of what the BBC, which used to be the most unbiased, reliable news source, but is now at least as left wing as our dear ABC, theorises on, you are probably also a supporter of people like John Pilger.

    Am I imagining things, or did I, on 9/11, with many millions of other witnesses see aircraft deliberately flown into the towers? There were, I believe, five aircraft involved, two aimed at the towers, another at the Pentagon. Was not one of the aircraft, destined for Capital Hill, flown into the ground by passengers who overpowered militants? There were clearly other targets besides the towers, and it was Islamic militants who flew the craft having overpowered, and likely, murdered crew.

    Or were they, along with your theory of possible US initiation, CIA agents disguised as Islamists? I know the CIA gets up to a few things, but I didn’t think deliberately killing thousands of its own citizens was one of them. Flying aircraft into buildings seems a bit crude for an intelligence agency!

    So now you claim a controlled explosion while there were citizens still in the buildings, having just started their working day, and that by US citizens against US citizens!

    There are other things I could say to dismiss these claims, but find the whole exercise repulsive.

    The fact that most of us have deferred from commenting, apart from letting Chirpy know his views are anti-semetic and conspiratorial at best, should tell you everything you need to know.

  168. I’ll tell you what, wazza2, in the interests of fairness and genuine discussion, if you set up a post which strictly confronts the issues you brought up, and sets out your case, and gets us away form this anti-semetic, Israeli hate-fest, I’ll take interest in what you have to say.

    But I won’t go along with dumbing down of history to support anti-Jewish sentiment.

  169. wazza2, thank-you for the support that you have extended to me. I appreciate it. You’re the only person who has come to my defence on this blog. In light of the third paragraph you posted at 11:06am on 16th April, 2011, it’s obvious to me that you have an honest mind. Everybody is entitled to make their own assessment of what happened during the Jewish holocaust and you’re no exception.

    ************

    To all readers, in all honesty, I have not spent much time studying the hijackers of 9/11 because it became obvious to me early on, when I realised that WTC 1, WTC 2 and WTC 7 were all brought down by controlled demolition, that the official story of the hijackers was a contrived story and that the entire operation had been managed by intelligence agencies and supervised by higher powers. Over time, I cam to learn that the CIA, Mossad and possibly other intelligence agencies around the world also such as British intelligence were involved. The supervisor of this operation is the shadow government that controls the ‘elected’ government of the USA and controls its monetary system, as well as ‘elected’ governments and monetary systems of other countries such as the United Kingdom, Canada and Australia.

    Footage on YouTube is freely available showing the huge cloud of dust generated by the collapse of the Twin Towers, WTC 1 and WTC 2. It was a massive cloud of dust over the entirety of New York city. This dust is the concrete from these two, 110-storey buildings (ie. WTC 1, WTC 2) which has been pulverised to fine dust. The only possible way such a massive amount of dust can be generated from the collapse of these two buildings is if they were blown apart from top to bottom using explosives. When one views the collapse of each of these towers, which both occurred over the space of about twelve seconds only, one can clearly see that this is exactly what happened. Both towers were blown apart with explosives. The Twin Towers, WTC 1 and WTC 2, had been wired for controlled demolition prior to the planes hitting them and they were taken down in twelve seconds each, by controlled demolition.

    ************

    churchman said the following at 10:07pm on 15th April, 2011:

    “There were over 9 million Jews in Europe before the Holocaust. Two thirds were murdered. The onus is on YOU to prove it a lie. You live in Australia right? Do you know any Jewish people? Ask them about it. Probably most Jewish people in Australia have family members who died in Europe.”

    churchman, are you able to provide credible sources for the following figures that you referred to above?

    > population of Jews in Europe before the Jewish holocaust

    > population of Jews in Europe after the Jewish holocaust at the end of World War II

  170. The following video proves my case beyond any doubt regarding 9/11 and the use of controlled demolition:

  171. In order to properly assess the video I posted above, it needs to be viewed at an adequate resolution by doing the following:

    > Hover one’s mouse over the top left corner of the video until the link labelled “North Tower Exploding” appears.

    > Right-click on that link and select “Copy video URL” in the list of options that appears.

    > Open a new internet browser window and paste this video URL into the space for the URL in that new browser window by left-clicking in the URL space, then right-clicking and selecting “Paste”.

    > You can then view the video in the resulting YouTube webpage.

    (If you’ve set up your mouse so that the right button is your primary clicking button instead of the left button, then you’ll need to interpret the instructions above by swapping “left” for “right” and “right” for “left” in the instructions above.)

  172. “churchman, are you able to provide credible sources for the following figures that you referred to above?”

    Chirpy, what sources will you accept as credible?
    And do you know how Jewishness is defined?

  173. “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
    Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
    Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
    Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
    And prudent in their own sight!”

    Isaiah 5:20-21

  174. I can’t believe that this is still going on …

    It stops now.

    Chirpy, you aren’t winning friends here. There is far too much evidence to demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that 6 million european jews were systematically murdered.

    That’s it.

    End of discussion.

    They were even deported from the Channel Islands, for goodness sake!

    That is it … putting a stop to this thread now. Comments are now closed.

Comments are closed.