Joel Osteen … dumb shit!

Joel Osteen at Lakewood Church, Houston, Texas
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Mormons are Christians, says Osteen

Fred Jackson – OneNewsNow – 10/25/2011 10:05:00 AMBookmark and Share

Texas mega-church pastor Joel Osteen says he believes Mormons are Christians.

The statement came yesterday in Washington in response to a reporter’s questions about politics. Osteen said he likes Texas Governor Rick Perry and prays for his candidacy in the GOP presidential candidate race. But Osteen said he also disagreed with a fellow Texas pastor — Robert Jeffress — who recently stated that Perry’s political opponent, Mitt Romney, was “not a Christian” because he is a Mormon, and that Mormonism is a “cult.”

In a video posted by The Washington Times (above), Osteen states that while he did not know whether Mormonism is the “purest form of Christianity,” he has heard Romney say that Jesus is the Son of God and is his Savior — and that is one of the “core issues,” the pastor concludes.

Osteen was in the nation’s capital for planning meetings for a major event he is holding in Washington next spring. He was also signing copies of his new book Every Day a Friday: How to be Happier 7 Days a Week.


34 thoughts on “Joel Osteen … dumb shit!

  1. Joel O: “Well, fellas, you know I want whats best for you in Utah, so buy my latest book cos it’s all in there …”

    He really is Pastor Barney the Dinosaur. “Hey everybody! It’s time for “Joel says”!”

    Pastor Barney/Joel “Hey kids, Mormons are Christians now. And Remember, I LOVE you!”

    Joel is the Pastor from our Imagination,
    After school we sit and play with guns and ammunition.
    Joel tells us he’s our man, Joel is our master,
    Joel tells us who to kill to get to heaven faster.

    He really is a clueless wally.

  2. He may say a few things which irritate some Christians, like you, but I don’t think you can call a man who runs a church of 80 thousand, which has numerous missions outlets and is very generous in its giving, either clueless or a wally.

    I think sometimes over-zealous people grab hold of the more controversial ideas of a successful or prominent minister and focus on these rather than attempt to discover exactly what it is that they do right.

    Maybe you could set yourself an exercise of looking into the kind of things Joel Osteen actions which are Biblical and produce lasting fruit for the kingdom.

    I see many things about his ministry which are positive and useful.

  3. I think calling a heretical cult ‘Christian’ means he never met the Jesus of the Bible.

    Oh silly me! He hasn’t actually read the Bible has he?

    80,000 people following him? That saddens me, but Islam has just such a distorted view of Jesus as Mormons do, yet would you call them blessed, considering their numbers?

    But what do we expect from someone who inherited his dad’s church?

    Joel Osteen likes being a part of a Church, likes the people, the Church has obviously been a big part of his life since he was born. But Jesus is still waiting to be.

    We are left with the following possibilities:

    a) Joel is a cynical charlatan who will say anything to be acceptable to a possible next President of the US.
    b) Joel knows the difference between Mormonism and Saving Faith in Jesus leading to Salvation but is afraid of man.
    c) Joel is a simpleton who is saved but is very eloquent while also having learning difficulties.
    d) Joel never read his Bible before becoming Pastor when his dad died.

    Doing good works doesn’t cut it if you are wrong about Jesus.Sincerity is irrelevant. Writing self-help books on how to be happy is completely pointless if you do not point people to Jesus.

    By telling Mormons they are Christians, he is condemning them to eternity without God. How can this be excused?

  4. OK, Bull, there you go! You can’t hear the plea for a more balanced approach to people like Osteen for the sound of your own finger wagging in the gale force of your righteous anger. It disappoints me, though, that you’re taking SP02 back on the unfruitful anti-christian track of slagging our own.

    There are many missions outlets and evangelistic ministries supported by Osteen’s church who would consider your bias unkind at best, and, beyond this, ludicrous.

    The old heavy handed appeal to ‘numbers don’t make a church right’ is, in its way, correct, but it is also so counterproductive, since God expects there to be growing numbers as the gospel is preached, so, conversely, numbers could indicate a right approach to ministry, or are you of the strange school of thought that quality is better than quantity, which denies the probability that quality will actually produce quantity, and vice versa.

    Whilst I agree that Mormons are unlikely to be Christians, I would not allow myself to be naive enough to think that this is the sum total of Osteen’s theology.

    In fact, although he sounds very populist and motivational, and even simplistic, at times, there is a depth to much of his preaching which draws people to Christ. We all have different calls and abilities. I think a closer look at his would surprise many.

    I wouldn’t expect you to see this, though, or even attempt to find out. Your particular die is set, as far as a certain parts of the body are concerned.

  5. Mormons are unlikely to be Christians? What do you think Paul, John, Peter, Jude and all the others would call them?

    It’s interesting that their heresy came from an “angelic” visitation, in just the same way that Islam and Todd Bentley got their theology.

    Maybe Paul and John were mistaken?

    Joel Osteen got his current job because he inherited it from his dad. That is not a qualification for ministry according to Paul.

    I basic knowledge of scripture is a minimum. Yet Joel thinks he has to put his people back under the Law of Moses! The Kosher Food laws for example. “pig is a dirtee animal” said Joel in his barney voice.

    I wish I were over-reacting.

    If the theology is wrong, do we just ignore it? If so, Paul and Peter in Acts 15 were dead wrong. We should all have to become Jews in order to be saved.

    Luther was wrong to leave Rome.

    Steve, Truth matters. Otherwise we might as well give up and live in a commune. God is love so lets just go for hedonism.

    God’ll forgive us anyway. Rob Bell was right. Or was he?

    Joel Osteen is a false teacher.

  6. Surrounded by 80,000 people who think the sun shines out of his dumb-ass.

    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice, shame on me.

    80,000 tithers. Sure his church can fund everything and pay him a handsome salary, along with his wife and other close relatives.

    Nepotism … it’s a family thing.

  7. How he speaks is irrelevant to what he says. Are you sure that’s not just a racist attack on Texans, Bull?

    Many Texans are naturally gregarious and generous people, in my experience, and very homely, positive, polite and outward going.

    What you are seeing is a cultural presentation of the gospel.

    Maybe you don’t see this kind of stuff in the Welsh valleys, although I remember staying with a coal mining family a few years back in a little village, and they were wonderful, and in another village just before we went to Australia, and the people were friendly. Perhaps city life has hardened your outlook.

    God is the Great Nepotist, though, isn’t he. All his kids get a job in the Church, some in leadership. He sent his own Son to save the world. In fact, you can’t get a job in his Church unless your a son or daughter of the House.

    I can’t stand this concept that a leader’s son or daughter is disqualified for being kin. We need to treat everyone equally, and give the job to the best qualified, regardless of whether they’re related or not. Pastor’s kids tend to know the ropes before anyone else, and there are many, many great stories of children of pastors who went on to become great leaders in the Church.

    Wesley was undoubtedly an example of a son who went on to great things in the Church, along with his brother.

    Joh Osteen was a great missionary and evangelist. He built Lakewood on these two outreaching hands to the community, not just in Houston, but across the nations. He was a Baptist preacher, who held his credentials ’til the day he died, even though the Baptist Union gave him the left hand of fellowship for being filled with the Spirit, and teaching that Jesus heals today.

    So Joel grew up in a strong Baptist charismatic home, in a church which has a huge missions program, and was on the cutting edge of global evangelism.

    How could he not know the gospel, as taught by the Baptists, and built on by those who embraced the Spirit and his gifts? I don’t hear dissenters to his being asked to lead the church, only those who are outside and have a bitter attitude towards charismatics.

    I’ll ask you this question, Bull. How many sermons have you listened to from either John Osteen or Joel?

    You’all come back now, and let me know, y’hear!

  8. From the quotes you’ve given, Bull, Osteen dosent explicitly say that Mormons are Christians.

    He said that Romney believes Jesus is the Son of God and is his Saviour – and thats one of the “core issues”

    I think thats a reasonable position to take, and wise given the sectarianism in America around the Presidency. He was reacting to someone taking a hard line objecting to the guys religion.

    Anyone getting that high in politics is unlikely to be a Christian anyway, due to the moral tradeoffs required. So I think its all a bit academic.

  9. I said, effectively, that his only qualification was his DNA. That is simply not good enough. But … you know, it shows that his congregation know absolutely nothing too.

    “I don’t know if Mormonism is the purest form of Christianity.”

    It isn’t Christian at all. Different Jesus, no Salvation possible.

    If someone says “I believe in Jesus and trust Him as my Saviour” is that enough?

    What if the person saying it was a Muslim and believed that Jesus didn’t die on a Cross, was not raised from the dead, was not not God the Son and so on.

    Is he saved?

    I love southern americans. I like their culture. I am a student of the American Civil War.

    “It is well that War is so terrible, else we should grow too fond of it.”
    -Robert E. Lee

    And I have listened to Joel … it is very painful listening too.

    It may be academic regarding the presidency but when Pastors are too afraid to take a stand and say “I respect His religion but it isn’t mine” then they have failed in their duty to stand up for the Gospel.

    My truth isn’t your truth but who knows the truth anyway?

    There are loads of nominal Christians out there. Did you hear about the Texan Southern Baptist Pastor who converted to Islam?

    The reason: he was fed up with the wishy-washy moral standards of Christians and wanted strict moral guidelines to live by. Probably inherited his church from his dad.

    We are back to first/second generation christianity again.

    Are we not to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints?

    It is the most crucial issue of all. Women in Leadership? Homosexuality? Divorce and Remarriage? None of these issues are about salvation.

    The early church had to deal with its own cults … the gnostics. Mormonism, JW’s, Todd Bentley … all have secret knowledge that supercedes the Apostles teaching. Mormonism and JW’s teach a different Jesus. The jury is still out on Bentley.

    Good works don’t matter. Congregations don’t matter. Denying the truth of the gospel does matter.

  10. Actually Bull, although we’re not saved by works, they are evidence of faith.

    Good works follow faith and grace, and do matter. They demonstrate faith. Without accompanying works faith is dead.

    Congregations matter to God. Jesus saw them scattered across the hillsides, without a Pastor, so he set about gathering them to himself. The congregation is the flock, and Jesus is the Shepherd. They are of the utmost importance, being the reason he was sent into the earth.

    I don’t see anywhere that Joel Osteen denies the gospel of Christ. Having a different opinion about Mormons isn’t a denial of Christ. He neither confirmed or denied that they were Christian, but refused to condemn them. In so doing he stated that faith in Christ was the way of the gospel, which speaks to both them and the world of the need of Christ.

    The fact is tat there are a great many media types who would love to stumble Osteen, so he is obviously being cautious about what he’ll endorse or condemn. The knockers will knock him whether he condemns or not. Many of his so-called Christian critics have such a warped view of the gospel themselves that they need more scrutiny than he does.

    Michael Horton calls him a heretic. But then, look at his own doctrine!

  11. From a former Mormon who is witnessing to Mormons to rescue them from spiritual darkness …

    Full article here:

    the beginning of the article:

    Dear Pastor Joel Osteen, Shame on You!

    I have just watched your remarks regarding Mitt Romney and his Mormon faith, recorded on video.

    Shame on you! You have given the enemies of the Cross a great victory. Either through sheer ignorance of the Word or your apparent desire to never offend anyone, regardless of their sins, you have handed the Mormons a huge PR gift. You have insulted and denigrated the many former Mormons like me who have spent their lives bringing Mormons the truth and to the Real Jesus, who died for their sins on Calvary. You have defined our ministries and my life’s work as worthless.

    You emphatically state: The Mormons are Christian. Are you completely ignorant of the fact that the Mormons have taught as a foundational doctrine that the creeds of all the Christian churches are abominations in the Mormons’ god’s sight?

    please read the rest of the article


    well, I am getting another coffee …

  12. I don’t think Joel gives the Mormons, JW’s or cults much of a thought on a day to day basis, frankly, and neither does he need to, particularly, because he is just getting on with his very busy job of preaching the gospel and pastoring a major work.

    On the other hand, your former Mormon friend can think of nothing else, maybe because that’s his own ministry, and is possibly guilty of gift-projection – the mistake people make when they are so heavily focused on their own service that they believe it’s everyone else’s mandate to acknowledge them, imitate them or support them.

    The degree of spite and offence displayed is irrational, really, and something we should be wary of. Why would Joel do anything but concentrate on what God has given him to do?

    God bless the Mormon guy for reaching lost Mormons, but it would be far better to be gracious about Joel’s lack of understanding than for the Mormon guy to make fiery darts out of his offences.

  13. I agree with much of what Steve says although I think there is a danger of nepotism especially in Pentecostal churches.

    My church has gone from a senior pastor, assistant pastor and youth pastor to now: senior pastor, his wife (assistant pastor), daughter (youth pastor), nephew (music director)now making up the total staff.

    Were they the best qualified? I don’t know but the positions weren’t advertised or anything. I think there’s a real danger in that and the cynic in me says it is a great way to ensure control.

  14. Are they paid roles, Bones?

    As an aside, it’s always much better to have lots of elders rather than just a senior Pastor. Share the workload and responsibility and stop the congregation from putting one man (it’s usually a man) on a pedestal. Not healthy for the leader or the congregation.

    more from the article …
    What kind of research or study did you undertake before you made this foolish and unbiblical utterance? Did you check with Pastor Jeffress, a godly, Christian pastor? Or with Mitt Romney, a man working out his own godhood? Or did you just toss this out from your own lack of knowledge or as some sort of sweet sound bite?

    Are you totally unaware that they have taught in their sacred temples for over a century that you and all other Christian pastors are corrupt hirelings of Satan, that you and your church are part of the great and abominable church and the whore of all the earth?

    Did you not know that Mormonism teaches a restorationist theology, stating that the gates of hell did prevail against the Church and teaching that all power and authority were lost until God chose Joseph Smith to be his holy prophet to restore all things and lead this last dispensation of time?

    Did you not know that the LDS church teaches they have the only true church, the only true prophet, the only true priesthood, and the only true scripture? That all others are false? That there is NO personal salvation outside their church?

    Didn’t you know that the god of Mormonism is an exalted man-god who once lived on another planet in some other galaxy? That he earned his godhood through his good works and now lives on a planet near the great star Kolob with a harem of his many goddesses, making spirit babies to come to this earth to earn [their own] godhoods?

    You say you “heard Romney say that Jesus is the Son of God and is his Savior — and that is one of the “core issues.”

    You announced to the world, with a broad smile, that the Mormon Church and Romney are Christian and that the differences between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity are simply the same as the differences between Baptists and other denominations. How could you, as the pastor of one of our largest churches, say that so glibly?

    Don’t you know that Mitt Romney is a man who is earning his own godhood and plans to people his own planet? That Romney is a Mormon High Priest in the Melchizedek priesthood? That the Mormons have usurped that holy priesthood as their own?

    To pronounce them Christians, do you then agree with the Mormon doctrine that the Mormon Jesus is the brother of Lucifer? That he became ‘savior’ by a vote of a council of gods? That He is not the Word become flesh, not God come in the flesh, but was conceived through an act of sex by the Mormon god and one of his own daughters, Mary?

    To have publicly accepted their Christianity, you must apparently concur that Jesus did not die as ransom for our sins on the Cross, but suffered for us in the garden, sweating great drops of blood, placing our personal salvation as conditional upon our works and our obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Mormon gospel. That Jesus’ death on Calvary merely gives us all resurrection so that we may be judged for our works and obedience.

    Why do you think that the Mormons have over 50,000 missionaries out, primarily targeting Christians weak in the faith? If they are Christians, why do they target other Christians?

    It is because they have success in seducing people who have not been taught biblical truth and discernment by pastors more eager to fill pews and sell books than guard their people from the ravening wolves who circle the flocks.

    Me again …
    I can verify the fact that Mormons target Church-goers. We were the only Christians living in the street, and had a fish symbol on the car. Guess what? They turn up at our door and don’t bother with the rest of the houses on the street. Why?

    They are trying to convert Christians to their cult. Joel has just made it a lot easier.

    As far as not needing to get everything right to be a Christian. That of course is true. However, the mormons have got everything wrong, apart from the names. So they are not. None of them are spirit-filled believers.

    I suppose I’ll be shot down in flames again. That’s ok. I know I am right on this.

    If Joel is a pastor, shouldn’t he be a significant watchamn on the wall, defending his flock from Bad Teaching? He isn’t doing that.


    1) He doesn’t know about Mormon teaching. (He’s been asked about Romney before … at the previous presidential election … so, couldn’t he be bothered?)
    2) He wants to sell as many books as possible, including Utah.
    3) He is a coward.
    4) He’s a charlatan who inherited his dad’s church and happens to be great at communicating on TV. Nice smile, kids love him.

    Do I think his response was calculated? No. But the last time he talked about Romney, he ended up have to write to his church members and speak to them to reassure them that he was sound and knew that Mormons were different to Christians. At best, he’s two-faced.


  15. Are they paid roles, Bones?

    The assistant and youth pastors are. Not sure about the music director.

    Re the Mormon issue. No way would I consider LDS as followers of Christ. Definitely goes against Tradition, Reason and Scripture. No different to me standing up and proclaiming myself as Jesus Christ. Same with JWs. Bull has outlined some of their weird and deviant teachings and a lot of it is horrible stuff.

    Does that mean however that I would vote for a Christian over a Mormon politician? No. I vote for their policies not their theology.

    I have a feeling that the issue here is political as opposed to theological. We in Australia haven’t politicised belief, YET. The US certainly has a political and theological divide between the left and right. Maybe Osteen doesn’t want to be drawn into a political debate.

  16. There is certainly a whiff of politics involved. A candidates religion ought not to be a reason for not electime him or her.

    However, whether or not Osteen could sway the republican nomination by saying a mormon candidate is not a Christian is one thing. By saying that he is a Christian is saying something else entirely.

    By saying that Mormonism is just another denomination is totally misleading. It needs courage, in our relativistic age, to say that while you might not have all the answers, someone elses religion is taking them to an eternity of darkness, because they don’t know the Jesus of the Bible and the Gospel once delivered to all the saints.

    As far as nepotism goes, I can understand a Pastor wanting to employ his wife as his assistant, apart from anything else, it can help the marriage, with both working together etc.

    However, there are many unpaid wives of Pastors doing the same thing, yet without the job title, or the pay.

    So, I think that in that circumstance, the church members clearly don’t have much of a say in who gets appointed. Particularly with the son getting a paid position.

    Are there mature believers you would consider as being ‘elders’ in teh Church who are being overlooked? If your church is full of new believers who haven’t that kind of grounding then I can understand if there is no recognised leaders stepping up to the plate.

    Otherwise, your pastor isn’t developing new leaders … just his son.

    I met a Pastor from Kenya … brilliant guy, his church is blossoming like mushrooms, with more sites sprouting up. He’s done it by building leaders who go out and start their own congregations. He is pushing for a million members by 2020.

    Top bloke

  17. Bull, ‘Otherwise, your pastor isn’t developing new leaders … just his son.’

    Well, how did John Osteen accomplish this from the grave?

    Joel was involved in the TV production team, and carved very successful career out of it too. I believe he was reluctant to step up to the main role, but was encouraged by the leadership team to do so. How is that nepotism?

    Your whole arguement falls apart right there!

  18. Steve it is entirely possible for someone to preach a Gospel that sounds good yet subsequently to turn away from the truth and promote the Mormon Church as a bona fide denomination of the Christian Church.

    AT that point, they are promoting heretics, even if they don’t know or don’t care what those heretics believe.

    And I can’t be bothered to watch your clips. He’s promoted the Mormon Church. Do your research on the Mormons and what they believe … or would you happily promote the mormons as equivalent to methodists and baptists and lutherans and Roman Catholics???

    You have to take Joel as a whole, not just the bits you like. So what if Joel can sound good?

    He’s happy for Mormon believers to remain damned.

    Doesn’t that concern you?

  19. So, Bull, you call a man a dumb sh*t, accuse his dad of nepotism, denounce his ministry, dismiss him as a charlatan, blast his apparent lack of credentials, and ‘can’t be bothered’ to view a reasonable defence of the gospel he preaches, and the heritage he received.

    And on what basis? That he refused to attack the Mormon faith and denounce them as a cult during a media interview, in the same way you would, apparently, have done if you’d been in front of the cameras and asked to assess a presidential candidate’s religious beliefs! And this on the understanding that Osteen is considered one the most influential Christians in the US at the moment, who could, supposedly, damage a candidates chances if he commented.

    If you’d ‘bothered’, you’d see that I put up a clip of the father in which he told how he’d brought up his kids, including Joel, in a godly home, and they’d all received Jesus, and a clip of the son, who gives credit to his father, John, for the loving and caring way he brought him up in a godly home atmosphere.

    So my effort afforded to help you see truth is rejected. Because you can’t be bothered!

    Now that is dumb!

  20. I can’t be bothered to watch the clips because they are irrelevant to substantive point.

    Joel thinks that mormonism is a legitimate denomination of Christianity. Or he is a coward. Or he is a dumb shit.

  21. No, sir, you went further than chewing Joel out for not condemning Mormonism.

    You attacked him, and his father, a well-respected, godly man and father, with unsubstantiated claims, including nepotism, lack of credentials for what he is blazingly obviously called to do, regardless of whether he went to some deadly seminary, and you name both men as false preachers.

    You can’t be bothered because you don’t want to be faced with the anomaly [for you] of sound, public, available evidence of a man who is saved, been brought up in a godly home by a God-fearing father, clearly has great leadership qualities, and is a good preacher and minister of the Word, but refuses to publicly denounce a presidential candidate to the media because of that candidate’s religious affiliation.

    You would rather he publicly denounce the evils of the Mormon faith so that you can adjudge the man upright in your sight, when the only thing Joel, John, or any of us has to demonstrate is that we are holy, blameless and unreproveable in God’s sight, which can only be attained through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, by working out our salvation with fear and trembling, and not through any works which can be judged by armchair critics.

    None of what I presented to you is irrelevant to your unsupported accusations.

    If you continue to refuse to take note of what I took time to present to you, then you have no case.

    And if you will condemn a man and his ministry for one perceived conflict with your opinion on what is to be said in public, then who amongst us has any chance of being right with you?

  22. You take snippets of a man’s ministry to criticise and leave out the rest.

    I think the early church agreed not to eat food with blood, didn’t they?

    Otherwise we’re free to eat what we want, even food offered to idols, if we are not superstitious about it. It is all blessed and sanctified in the name of Christ when we give thanks.

    But we are not to stumble those who are not as free as we about food they eat. In fact, we should refrain from eating food which offends others if we sit at the same table.

    Isn’t that right?

    But it doesn’t make a ma wrong to regard foods in a certain way.

    I can’t understand why you are pushing such a religious, hypercritical line about a man and his father.

    If you are going to level heinous accusations at men of God, at least have the courage to hear out a defence and not say you can’t be bothered. That is the stuff of ignorance, brother.

  23. In fact, if you are father, you should take time to watch John Osteen’s clip, because it is the kind of preaching rarely heard these days on fatherhood and the responsibility of husbands.

    I was actually offering you a gift, and thus far you’ve turned it down because of pride.

  24. I have no axe to grind about Joel’s Dad.

    It is not necessary for Joel’s Dad to purpose the inheritance of his ministry. Indeed, Joel’s Dad died quite suddenly.

    The Ministry was all at sea and so they put Joel in the frame. There was no one else. A lack of plurality in leadership … a mistake for sure but not a crime per se. Had there been other elders/pastors with a ‘lesser’ public persona than Joel’s Dad, but still known, they would have assumed the leadership.

    Instead they put a young man in charge who was not a student of the Word. He knew bits like most people but that’s it.


    I haven’t got the time to watch things dude! I am doing this in my Coffee breaks in Work. You Tube is banned. So I can’t be bothered to go home and watch it.

    We are currently doing “If you want to walk on water you’ve got to get out of the boat” in Cell Group. (not my choice)

    I got really, really annoyed at one point. The author talked about people who didn’t reach their potential.

    The guy who gets home from work and gets into his laz-y-boy and watches sports all night with a cold beer … has failed. He’s settled. He’s given up on ambitions etc.

    I was so annoyed at that. That is aspirational at the moment. I am knackered all the time. The idea that I can sit down and put my feet up watching TV sounds like a dream.

    So, I can’t be bothered to watch some youtube videos cos I am too damn tired!


    Oh, I am sure that Joel can preach a gospel … but when he preaches wrong stuff, can we ignore bad teaching? Are we not allowed to point that out?

    Would you say in public (or private) that Mormonism is as valid as Methodism?

  25. I personally like Joel Osteen. I like positive preaching.

    But for someone of his stature it isn’t good enough to have not studied something like Mormonism. Probably an hour would do it.

    I think because of his high profile it would be better if he could know the basics of not every group, but at least the major groups like Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    I’m sure most Mormons are fine, clean-living people who are trying to live Godly lives the best way they know how – but you don’t have to call people Christians just because they can agree to some terms that we use.

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