When is abortion ever safe?

embryoMedical science uses interesting terminology when it comes to abortion statistics.

The following article, from the British Medical Journal, refers to two kinds of abortion; one that is merely categorised as abortion, and the other called unsafe abortion, which gives the impression that the former is safe abortion without actually saying it.

Global abortion rate stalls while proportion of unsafe abortions rises

The global abortion rate, which declined substantially between 1995 and 2003, has now levelled out while the proportion of all abortions that are unsafe continues to increase.

The worldwide abortion rate per 1000 women aged between 15 and 44 dropped from 35 in 1995 to 29 in 2003. A new study by the Guttmacher Institute in New York and the World Health Organization has found that in 2008 the global abortion rate was 28 per 1000 women.

The study, published online in the Lancet (doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(11)61786-8), also found that the proportion of abortions categorised as unsafe rose from 44% in 1995 to 49% in 2008.⇓

Nearly all unsafe abortions (98 %) occur in developing countries. In the developing world, 56% of all abortions are unsafe, compared with 6% in the developed world. Since 2003 the number of abortions fell by 600 000 in the developed world but increased by 2.8 million in the developing world.

One has to wonder who the abortion is safe for.

Is it the mother who is considered safe, or the child? Or perhaps the clinics are deemed safe if they are legally set up and organised. So who is at risk when it comes to unsafe abortion?

Of course the mother is being referred to, and no one would disagree with this, unless they were really hard-core, but it is amazing to note how the child has been completely ignored, because surely there is no safe place for an embryo when abortion is deemed to be the cure.

And isn’t it incredible that the main issue being raised here is the rise in unsafe abortions compared to abortions, not the figures which give us 2.8% of women between 15 and 44 having an abortion? That’s almost three in every hundred.

This was a drop from 1995, when 3.5% had an abortion. It’s good that there is a drop in the rate, but it is still astonishingly high when you consider the global population is approaching seven billion.

Remember, these are global figures, which means a staggering number of women go through the abortion process every year. I add that this article isn’t about judging the mother’s motives, because some women go through terrible experiences, and society has developed a disposable human culture, particularly  since the 1960’s.

It is surely the ease with which abortions are obtained and the seeming flippant attitude towards the unborn child which makes these figures distressing.

The Altar of Rejection

It also confirms that abortion is a major industry. We are, in effect, sacrificing children at the altar of rejection at an alarming rate of 29 in every 1000 women worldwide, and this is amongst the so-called safe abortion clinics.

Feminists now use the provocative and erroneous argument that men should keep out of the discussion on the morality of abortion because it must only be the woman who makes the decision. But there must be a level of accountability when it comes to making the decision about terminating the life of an individual who has no choice in the outcome. There must be an allowance for representation of those innocents in the womb, at whatever gestation stage they may be.

In the UK today, an unborn child who is the casualty of assault on his mother who later dies in the womb is not said to have been murdered or the victim of manslaughter. He is said to have been ‘destroyed in the womb’, a clear indication of the controversy which could ensue if the anti-abortion lobby could challenge abortion if child destruction were termed murder or manslaughter.

Yet there is legal jurisdiction for trained professionals to destroy children in the womb and not be accountable for their actions in the same way as a person who assaults a pregnant woman resulting in the death of the infant.

Is rejection of a healthy child in a healthy mother’s womb a valid reason to abort?

We tragically count abortions in the millions. One has to wonder who God will hold accountable for this excessive loss of life.

Medical science should be about saving lives and improving health. All procedures should be considered safe. When the mother is at risk then we have to make the call whether the mother or child should be saved, but when neither is at risk, who are we to make it unsafe for one to save the lifestyle of the other?

78 thoughts on “When is abortion ever safe?

  1. Of course the abortion is unsafe for the child – by definition.

    They are referring to safety for the woman.

    Surely if the number of unsafe abortions has increased in the third world by 2.8 million there is something happening besides lifestyle choice. These women have risked their own lives in order to abort a child – they must have felt there was absolutely no other alternative.

    Most people I know (thanks SM) would not take risks with their lives if they could possibly help it. Most women would prefer to have a child if they could see any way of supporting him/her.

    How do you propose this be addressed – the Prosperity gospel?

    Now going to the first world – which still has poverty, particularly in the USA. Having unwanted children is a major contributor to poverty. Not only from the expense of feeding another mouth, but when the unwanted children grow up they have social and psychological problems because of the rejection and lack of love. They are far more likely to be welfare-dependent and get into crime.

    It would be much better if these births were prevented rather than being aborted, but many women in these situations do not have a lot of choice when it comes to contraception or even their sexual activity.

    Since the 90s the crime rate has gone down in America, and this has been attributed to the availability of abortion since the 70s. Perhaps the fact that abortions have gone down is also attributable to the fact that there are less unwanted children (who have become adults and more likely to have their own unwanted children).

    Prosperity, positive thinking and the Christian message have been preached to these people for 100 years in America. In every slum and trailer park there is always a church, many doing great work. America is the most right-wing country on earth and the most prosperous, but there is a huge problem with poverty. Just watch “Brick City” on SBS for an insight into the problems of people in New Jersey.

  2. Ah, of course, I should have realised, it’s the Pentecostals who are the problem not the abortion clinics.

    If the only thing you’ve got as a standard argument is an attack on the so-called prosperity gospel, then I don’t see you have much credibility, frankly.

    Are you saying the majority of abortions cannot be solved through alternative arrangements such as adoption?

    Are you also saying that all abortions are far more of a risk to their mother than mere inconvenience?

    Is there a lack of contraception in the world which prevents women from falling pregnant carelessly?

    I have pointed out that there are women who are treated badly, and their situation should be taken into account. But can you claim rape, incest, or life-threatening situations in every case.

    If the reason given for an abortion is financial or poverty connected, why are more women (or men) not using contraception if they know that a pregnancy would be a financial disaster?

    Your argument is backwards.

    Most pregnancies are preventable these days.

    It is either the responsibility of man or the woman or both if they have unprotected sex.

    I’d put it more down to the liberalisation of morality, and the fact that abortion is available on demand, no questions asked, from the age of puberty, but there you go.

  3. Well if it was a case of abortion on demand driving the incidences, then we would expect the proportion of safe abortions to be increasing.

    The opposite is true, the number of unsafe abortions is increasing while the total remains steady – therefore the number of safe abortions is decreasing.

    This is largely a third-world and poverty related problem. Why don’t they use contraceptives? Because of the power imbalance between men and women in these settings, and the imbalance to men and women of the consequences of pregnancy.

  4. Well, wazza, we don’t know how many abortions there were before it was legalised and made available through authorised clinics.

    Of course, many more lives of mothers have been saved through improved medical procedures, but how many more children have been aborted?

    Another issue is the dehumanising of the child. If, as some people say, the child is not a child but an ‘it’, a mere cluster of cells, with no recognisable cognisance, so ‘it’ is not a viable human, therefore ‘it’ is expendable, then we are sending a signal to each succeeding generation of women (and the men who impregnate them) that the human being is less than precious, and that life itself has little value, therefore an abortion has no consequence.

    The value of humanity is being compromised with every termination.

  5. Ironically, I read this article and thought “I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the regulars are going to say they think abortion is okay”.

    But I didn’t expect the Prosperity doctrine to be brought up. That’s just weird. Wazza, I think you need help.

  6. You and Steve claim to have the answers not just for individual poverty, but for the economic transformation of the whole of society and indeed the world. The Prosperity Gospel.

    And yet, it must never be brought up, discussed or referred to in passing – even when the discussion touches on economic matters?

    If I do refer to it, its like I farted at the Sunday roast dinner?

    Am I going crazy???

  7. @Wazza,
    Firstly, there is so much in your first post that I disagree with.but anyway …

    It’s simply not true that women who can afford to have children don’t have abortions. You need to look again at statistics again. There are many women in the world who have abortions who CAN afford to have the child. They don’t for many and various reasons.

    Wazza, you are the one who started the attack on me and Prosperity. So what is your answer? Until you can change the whole social economic system of every country (because according to you even rich countries are full of poor people because of the system..???),
    you’re idea is to set up free, clean abortion clinics everywhere right?

    Okay, I’ll take the bait. Here is the simple solution to the world’s problems. Stop taking drugs, drinking too much, smoking, eating too much, and only have sex when you use either use contraception or are willing to look after the baby.
    Jesus is the answer. Don’t rape, don’t have sex outside of marriage, work hard, plan, have a vision, give, help the poor, if you are poor don’t give up, etc etc.

    That’s simplistic right? yeah it is. But what’s your alternative?

    hang the capitalists, give all their money to the poor, put nice clean abortion clinics on every street corner, guarantee everyone a certain income per month?

    And guess what…that won’t solve everything either.

    ANd before you start, yes I know there are wars, famines, and totalitarian regimes. Which is my whole point. People in blessed countries like Australia DON’T HAVE TO BE POOR!

    And the ones you say are poor can get out of it. They can!

    You show me the poor person in Australia that you are talking about and if the people on this website can’t come up with a solution so that they have enough food and water to survive and a roof over their heads, then it really is the end of the world isn’t it.

    So yeah, get people off drugs, booze, smokes, immorality and gambling and you’ve probably just halved the nation’s poor just by that.

  8. btw, Greg your first post was very sane and reasonable, and as a man I understand your sentiment.

    btw, Wazza, am I as a Christian allowed to say that anything is wrong?

    Can I say that pornography is wrong? Or would that start an argument too, and mean I’m being judgemental and simplistic … and not realizing that some people are lonely and need it, and that it provides an income for people.

    Is there such a thing as wrong, or sin in your understanding?
    Besides capitalism of course.

  9. SM

    You should be in government. You could easliy solve our problems in the Aborigine Communities and Asylum Seekers.

    Just put big signs everywhere. STOP!

  10. Umm … it is very easy to say that people in countries like the UK don’t need to be poor.

    However, last night (sunday) a couple of rough sleepers came into our meeting and I gave them coffee and biscuits.
    Whatever their issues have been, they would not have chosen to sleep rough on the streets … the churches in my city have clubbed together and given some rough sleepers a chance to sleep indoors out of the cold and also give them free counselling and help them out of their current problems.

    Having said that, we also need to remember that it is better to teach a man to fish than just give him fish. “if a man will not work, then neither shall he eat”

    We are trying to help these people get back on their feet. We can’t just tell people that Jesus loves them. We have to meet their needs too. That’s what Agape is all about.

    Re. Abortion.

    We live in a strange global society these days. We throw away unwanted babies and we want to throw away unwanted pensioners (euthanasia). However, to execute someone for murder is considered barbaric in the extreme.

    Abortion is now the ultimate contraception … didn’t use a condom? Didn’t get the morning after pill? No problem. Vacuum suction it out. Or, if you leave it even longer … cut it up into bits and then suction it out.

    How grisly do you want to make this?

    I already feel sick.


  11. Alan: Well, last week we showed you how to become a gynaecologist. And this week on ‘How to do it’ we’re going to show you how to play the flute, how to split an atom, how to construct a box girder bridge, how to irrigate the Sahara Desert and make vast new areas of land cultivatable, but first, here’s Jackie to tell you all how to rid the world of all known diseases.

    Jackie: Hello, Alan.

    Alan: Hello, Jackie.

    Jackie: Well, first of all become a doctor and discover a marvellous cure for something, and then, when the medical profession really starts to take notice of you, you can jolly well tell them what to do and make sure they get everything right so there’ll never be any diseases ever again

  12. Alan: Thanks, Jackie. Great idea. How to play the flute. (picking up a flute) Well here we are. You blow there and you move your fingers up and down here.

    Noel: Great, great, Alan. Well, next week we’Ll be showing you how black and white people can live together in peace and harmony, and Alan will be over in Moscow showing us how to reconcile the Russians and the Chinese. So, until next week, cheerio.

    Alan: Bye.

    Jackie: Bye.

    You might say it’s simplistic – but whats your alternative?

  13. Bull, there are definitely genuine poor in the UK. There are also poor in Australia, obviously, for various reasons, but I don’t think to the same extent. In London we have seen men sleeping in council house sheds 1m by 2.5m in the winter, mainly East Europeans looking for work. These are not drunks, druggies or down-and-outs but poor migrants seeking an improved standard of living, very willing to work, and here to find jobs. And they generally do, because they are willing to do just about anything to survive.

    Landlords are dividing houses into shared accommodation with up to ten people to a house, paying incredible amounts for the space they receive. This is barely survival stuff. We spent six months in a room in one of these shared homes in one of the poorest areas of North London, right where the riots started, just a mile from us. It was quite an experience, but not too harrowing, really, because you meet some amazing people from many places, but compared to Australia, this is extremely frugal living.

    Work is hard to find here, and competition for jobs intense, but if you stick to it you will find something. There is a huge difference here in the jobs market to Australia. It is really very Dickensian in many ways, and quite surreal. There’s not much money to go around, so even getting paid at the end of the week or month is a big deal. There are no guarantees. I’ve been doing bits and pieces for a college, but have not seen a full pay yet. It is survival.

    On the edge. A wonderful position for trusting God and watching him come through every week. I think people can be so well off they forget to trust God for everything. Counting the pennies can be a humbling experience. Is that a good thing, do you think? I do know this, that even here in one of the poorest areas of this nation, the community spirit is alive, and the aspiration survives, even though the chances of elevation are more limited by circumstance. We’ve met some amazing characters, and felt part of the multi-ethnic mix of a clan almost instantly. The poor do help the poor in a rich way.

    But there is always someone worse off than you are, and you meet them every day. I am surprised at the amount of people who are begging on the streets. I saw it in Australia, but usually amongst the indigenous itinerants with alcohol dependency, who would hassle visitors for money, but this is different again. I think the difference is the depression and loss of self-esteem which pushes a person over the edge into having to beg on the streets. The welfare system here is good, but not as generous as Australia, or as forgiving. Welfare addicts in Australia with large families can make comparatively huge ‘salaries’ from their state dependency.

    There are many challenges, then, for the Church. How to win back the ground in meeting the needs of the poor and disenfranchised. How to raise the hopes of those who have been seeking work for months. This is Wesley’s mission ground all over again. The falling away from Christ runs parallel with the drop in the standard of living in this once great Britain. The African churches thrive and blossom but the African believers, mostly Pentecostal, but also Anglicans, Baptists and Methodists, many of whom are doing comparatively well, look at the traditional Englishman and wonder why they have so readily abandoned Christ.

    At least in Australia the sun will shine sooner rather than later, and the surf will be up, your team playing on Saturday arvo, some rock concert in the balmy evening playing, a barbie to attend. Even in this, the mildest of Winters in England, the days are short and the wind cuts through. Europe is the new mission field. It is the new dark continent, and deep in recession, ready for revival. It sure could use some prosperity right now!

  14. Wazza2,
    You and Steve claim to have the answers not just for individual poverty, but for the economic transformation of the whole of society and indeed the world. The Prosperity Gospel.

    What Wazza says is true – either the prosperity gospel is the answer for the worlds poverty and there fore for at least 70% of abortions…or it isn’t. So which is it Steve? How would te prosperity gospel assist in this situation?

    Well, first of all, I have never claimed the ‘prosperity gospel’, as you call it, for anything. It is not part of my jargon, nor is it the whole of the gospel, as I have explained on the other thread.


    You have attributed the prosperity gospel to me because you have a preconceived idea of what I believe which is quite wrong, and not in accordance with what I have written on these pages.

    I have, actually, added earlier in this thread some of the things which could prevent unwanted pregnancies. Of course, they have nothing to do with the prosperity gospel, but with common sense with education, the removal of ignorance as an excuse for excessive behaviour, and the admission by liberal idealists that their policies have desperately failed the human race for at least three generations, and will be irretrievable unless they begin, from an early age, to bring about a profound change in the thinking of people entering their most sexually productive years.

    Of course, any shift in the figures towards zero abortions per annum would be prosperous, if you think about it.

    Prosperous for the child, for a start, who will be empowered to contribute to the world’s well-being in some way, large or small, prosperous for the mother, because she would have a potentially fulfilling life with her child, an prosperous for society, because there will be, with the birth of each child, the potential for a genuine contributor to society instead of a waste disposal unit which is cast into the flames at the back of some clinic.

    So, in fact, although I did not espouse prosperity teaching as a the answer to the problem of abortion, but, rather the change of societal views towards the education and support for people who are vulnerable to unwanted pregnancies, the solution will, of its own accord, produce the potential for prosperity, especially from a Biblical perspective, because what God calls wealth in the Hebrew is translated into the prosperity and power of potential which comes through the combined work ethic of a clan.

    But without the birth of children there is no clan. They are called God’s inheritance, or heritage.

    The prosperity of a nation is in its people, provided they are well led and well fed.

    Your own argument against prosperity defeats you.

  15. So less poverty in Australia – is that due perhaps to the welfare state?

    Noooo… Cant be, must be due to CCC and Hillsong tithers.

  16. Do unborn children have souls? If so, do the souls of aborted babies go to heaven? If so, why oppose abortion – it has a 100% success rate of souls to heaven, better than the most successful evangelist.

  17. If UK had the same mineral wealth in the ground as Australia, I think you’d find it would still be a world-power, provided it can avoid the extreme nanny-state socialist policies which have tied its hands, and the whacky class system which strangles equity.

    Australia has a marvellous welfare state, but it is also in a position to support it, because the money for welfare has to come from somewhere.

    The free enterprise policies of the Howard years on top of the floated dollar of the Hawke years saved Australia from the plight of the rest of the world, but it’s not a time to sit back on your laurels just yet, because the present Government has all but destroyed any advantage you had n reality is about to kick in unless you can remove this regime from power. Their style of welfare leads to dependency, something you must avoid, or you’ll end up like UK today.

    By the way, your comments are showing you to be so blinkered that you are bordering on bigoted.

  18. Wazza, I believe I can solve the obesity problem in Australia. Did you know that Australians are the fattest people on the planet? (If I’m wrong, then they are a close second to Americans).

    yes, I can solve the problem.

    Australians, from tomorrow morning, eat less! Only eat what you need to eat.

    Okay, now you could rave and attack and talk about hormones, and protein/carb ratios, and emotional problems, and the increase in corn syrup, and rebounding, and how people need to find their unique blood type diet, and the insidious rise of trans fats and estrogens in foods, and how people need counseling, and ….how the government needs to assists and have programs, and how we can’t be paternalistic, or maybe you could start an attack on tithing and the prosperity doctrine, or say that Hillsong puts too much emphasis on looks, and how God loves us the way we are, and maybe Bones might chime in and say that Martin Luther King and Luther weren’t slim, and maybe that the dirty rotten capitalist pig dogs at Vogue and Cosmopolitan are destroying peoples self-esteem, or maybe talk about evil stereotypes, or maybe waste your time with another meaningless jackie/Alan routine etc etc etc etc etc…..

    but, the fact remains the solution to most problems is simple (not easy -often extremely hard – but nevertheless, simple).

    Aussies are too fat. they eat too much. they need to eat less.

    Problem solved.

    And you jackie routine is ludicrous, but illustrates my point. Doing delicate operations is difficult, rocket science is difficult.

    But…..knowing that a fat person should eat less is simple. And knowing that there would be less poor people if people gave up drugs, gambling, immoral sex etc is simple. And knowing that it’s not good to kill babies before they are born is something that people especially Christians once knew.

    Bring a person to christ, let them study the Word, pray and mix with Christians, and they will still sin, and some will sin greatly,even the ones who preach… but that is better than telling them they have no hope except to continue in sin, abort their children, and wait for someone to change the government, the system and society into what Herr Wazza deems is best.

    Wazza, be filled with the Holy Spirit. Think about things that are just and lovely. Believe, hope, dream, work, do good. Teach people to have a dream, NOT GIVE UP, and work.

    As Steve said, there are migrants from Eastern Europe living in terrible conditions IN THEIR QUEST for a better life. Most of our ancestors came to Australia and did it tough.

    Life isn’t easy sometimes. The farmer will experience droughts and pestilence. But the farmer that sows and works intelligently year after year reaps the harvest. Sitting around and not sowing but complaining about the system, the govt, the church and God doesn’t result in anything.

    If you don’t like the Bible, i suggest your read Success though a positive attitude, or books like that.

    Your negativity will kill you.

  19. SM,

    Okay, now you could rave and attack and talk about hormones, and protein/carb ratios, and emotional problems, and the increase in corn syrup, and rebounding, and how people need to find their unique blood type diet, and the insidious rise of trans fats and estrogens in foods, and how people need counseling, and ….how the government needs to assists and have programs, and how we can’t be paternalistic, or maybe you could start an attack on tithing and the prosperity doctrine, or say that Hillsong puts too much emphasis on looks, and how God loves us the way we are, and maybe Bones might chime in and say that Martin Luther King and Luther weren’t slim, and maybe that the dirty rotten capitalist pig dogs at Vogue and Cosmopolitan are destroying peoples self-esteem, or maybe talk about evil stereotypes, or maybe waste your time with another meaningless jackie/Alan routine etc etc etc etc etc…..

    Classic! 😀

  20. Steve now has the answer to Australia’s obesity problem.

    I used to help with a soup kitchen in Brisbane in the 90s with some of the down and outs, druggies and transexuals. Gee I wonder if it ever occurred to them “I should stop doing it:”

    I should stop doing drugs
    I should get a job.
    I should find a house to live in.
    I should stop dressing like a woman.
    I should stop destroying my life.

    They probably never thought about that.

    I remember a story about a poor woman who lived in a cardboard box. One day, she was found dead and they thousands of dollars in her ‘home’.

    I wonder if she ever thought. ‘Cr@p, I might stop living in my cardboard box and live in a house.’

    I’m definitely not prochoice. I agree with what Steve and Greg posted earlier.

  21. Martin Luther King was actually quite stocky.

    You have nailed it though. Capitalism and greed are conspiring through the use of chemicals and preservatives in our food to unwittingly destroy our society. Ever wonder why there is so much autism and behaviour problems.

  22. More than that Bull.

    My boy suffers from all sorts of food allergies – to preservatives and all sorts of stuff they put in food.

  23. SM you cant be serious about your solution to the obesity problem?

    Are you?

    I’d like to know if Steve supports this?

    Your strategy is to give an incredibly simplistic solution to a major problem, and then when I reply with another one (which will of necessity be more complex) – you ridicule its complexity.

    The obesity problem is due to a number of factors, some related to self-control, but also related to the promotion of high-calorie fast-foods, lack of time for cooking and also relative cheapness of fast-foods compared to cooking from scratch. I wont go into genetic differences because it will blow your tiny mind.

    Anyway here is my solution for world peace. You dont need complicated church buildings and all that complicated theology.

    1. Go up to one person and say “Peace out man!”
    2. When he agrees say “Tell everyone else you can”
    3. Goto step 1

    Do you agree this will bring about world peace? If not, whats your solution? Dont give me all that crap about one person being three – and all that dying and resurrection stuff – its way too complex.

  24. Addictions, be they of food, narcotics, pharmaceuticals, alcohol, gambling, pornography, tobacco, or any number of dependencies which entrap people, are notoriously hard to break people out of.

    Obesity isn’t an area I would claim any expertise in, but my view is that each person should be dealt with individually because there is more than one factor which can cause a person to be overweight for their height, including bone-structure, medical issues, diet, illness which prevents physical exercise, laziness, addiction to certain foods, or just plain old greed.

    Neither would I claim to have the cure, but one factor which would help is the ability to enter a disciplined lifestyle. The problem with obesity is that it takes a long time to stack it on and at least as long to take it off, and you don’t always see immediate results physically, but it has been done and there are many examples of people who have beaten their habit and shrunk down to a safer weight.

    People need a plan and motivation to get out of anything which is potentially destroying their lives, but getting them into that place of decision and discipline is awfully difficult and fraught with obstacles.

    From a Christian perspective, I can say from personal experience that, once a problem is faced and admitted the road to freedom can be entered, but not without significant pain, suffering, withdrawal symptoms and cravings.

  25. On the other hand, I can also say that there are some things in my life which were addictions but just dropped off when I was born again.

    The day my wife and I were saved we completely walked away from alcohol addiction, and we were both big binge drinkers up to that point. The funny thing is that we didn’t notice until five days after we were saved when a couple we used to drink all night with turned up for a session and we had no taste whatsoever for the grog. Amazing grace!

    Other things, such as tobacco, cannabis and, for me, caffeine, were things which we had to fight our way out of over time to be free.

    I have to say that the hardest was cannabis, and the most painful caffeine, which took three weeks of pain to get over!

    We don’t really have an issue with obesity, but we have to work at keeping our weight balanced for our height.

  26. Well, thats a more nuanced approach than SM’s, but I notice it begins and ends with the individual.

    It totally ignores the wider effects of culture and influence from other members of society. Most analysis, say from journalists and health professionals would take into account the following factors :

    1. Work lifestyles which tend now to be sedentary mental rather than physical work
    2. Lack of education of healthy food options
    3. Promotion of fast-food, particularly at meal-times and to children and teenagers – leading to habit-forming and even addiction.
    4. Promotion of unattainable body ideals, even in adverts for fast food.
    5. Effects of economics, both too much prosperity and too little.

    You have to tackle the problem from an individual and a systemic view.

  27. Those are the causes of obesity. I thought you were looking for the cure.

    Are you suggesting a ban on sedentary work lifestyles (why not just exercise between computer printouts?), fast-food outlets, and the like?

    A actually said the cure should be approached individually since each case is different, so why wouldn’t the approach be individual?

    So you’ve given the problem and the cause. So what’s the solution?

  28. Indentification of the cause will suggest the cure, but I wont go into it. Obviously we can’t lobby to change the system – Because that would be COMMUNISM!!!!

    You still havent said whether you support SM’s solution to obesity in Australia, which is everyone just eat as much as you need.

    Do you agree with this or not?

  29. You’re very forthright in condemning the ideas of people who have them if you don’t support them, but weak-kneed in producing your own.

    I suppose that protects you from being criticised for your ideas.

    Have the courage of your conviction and give us a hint of your solution.

    I’ve given my views on obesity. Read into them what you will. If I want to criticise or support SM’s ideas I will. I’d say that if I’ve written something which is contrasting to what he says it’s safe to say I don’t agree.

    From the way you talk about political and social issues one would assume you were bright enough to work this out for yourself.

  30. The whole point lobbying is to change systems. Why would lobbying be in any way communism? I would likely lobby for a more conservative approach to abortion, so how do you figure socialism into that?

    You actually manage at times to make no sense at all.

  31. This whole issue was raised and setup by SM in order to ridicule my solutions.

    Safe to say, SM, that your approach is over-simplistic if its not even supported by Steve.

    So here’s my approach :

    1. Apply dis-incentives to fast-food. Higher taxes (as done for cigarrettes, alcohol etc), as fast food is shown to have similar detrimental health effects,addictiveness and costs to the health system as alcohol and cigarettes. Ban fast-food advertising.

    2. Encourage and promote industries which provide fresh food. Inquire into the duo-opoly in Australia which is the supermarket industry so that consumers and farmers get a fair go.

    3. Encourage employers to provide exercise opportunities at work. Disencourage them from requiring health-averse activities such as excessive overtime.

    4. Educate and promote healthy lifestyles. Discourage masterchef-competitions where fat chefs pour fatty sauces over fried meats.

  32. Prohibition policies rarely work when they replace permission. They are an abuse of civil liberties and create a black market. Nanny state policies infringe the rights of the people who do not abuse the system by excessive eating of fast foods or greasy meals.

    I like an egg bacon muffin meal every now and then. Why should I be penalised this little pleasure because some fat guy eats too many burgers? I mean if it saves his life, OK, but is that the job of legislators? Surely the more rules you have the more you have to police and enforce them the more bureaucracy you create, the more it costs the tax payer, the bigger the government we need, the more we have to endure rules and regulations, and we all know what law creates, an overloaded, overweight criminal justice system and ordinary people criminalised for eating more fat than they should.

  33. Relax, you can have your egg and bacon mcmuffin when I become Prime Minister. I’m not going to ban them.

    I wont even have fat-police which go into fast-food joints and throw people into jail. At least not in my first term.

    The criminal justice system wont be excessively overloaded with fatties.

    I think I just said to put a tax on fast food.

  34. I don’t think there will be a black-market in fast food, created in dirty back-of-house kitchens :

    Louie : Mate, did you bring the stuff?
    Blade: Yeah, I got a Zinger burger and a Milka-delight
    Louie: You didnt cut it with lighter fluid like last time?
    Blade: Nah, mate this is good stuff

  35. Really funny. Just as I thought. All the millions of reasons ….genetic difference…

    YOU EAT TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  36. There’s one thing that people never talk about these days.
    It’s a beautiful secret. Someone should write a book about it.
    It’s called……willpower.

    The Asian people I live with are all in shock when they go to Australia and see the size of people. They’re also shocked when they see how much you all eat.

    But I tell them, no it’s …..

    what Wazza said. And of course the evil capitalist pigs (got any names Bones for these people who are poisoning the population on purpose?)

    Brian Houston runs often by the way. Great role model.

  37. Wazza, most people in my family with my genes are fat. I on the other hand could do a cover shoot for Calvin Klein. I know what I’m talking about.

  38. I eat at Macdonalds often. Nothing wrong with eating some ice-cream, or a hamburger. Macdonalds have no agenda to poison the world.

    Just eat in moderation and you won’t get fat. Just eat what you need, fast sometimes, and then feast sometimes.

    We don’t need anymore legislation in Australia. There are laws against slavery, children working in factories, etc etc.

    What we need now is for people to live with wisdom and understanding. And to stop doing sin and destructive behavior.

    You could pass a zillion more laws, and supply every school and house with contraception and 2000 dollars a week, and I guarantee there will still be poor people.

    btw, Wazza, I like fast food. KFC, Maccas, – I like it!

    What’s crazy is that some people who are against banning abortion and gay marriage want to put bans on Macdonalds. It’s a weird world.

    “Professing to be wise they became fools”.

  39. Brian Houston runs often by the way. Great role model.

    Don’t think I’ve seen many fat Muslims either. Great role models. Your point being?

    I dare say your remarkable physique is due to not having much money to eat with once you’ve finished gorging yourself on Osteen/Jakes/Meyer.

    SM posted:

    got any names Bones for these people who are poisoning the population on purpose?)

    In response to Bones

    Capitalism and greed are conspiring through the use of chemicals and preservatives in our food to unwittingly destroy our society. Ever wonder why there is so much autism and behaviour problems.

    I suggest you look up the word unwittingly.

    Here you go

    un·wit·ting (n-wtng)
    1. Not knowing; unaware: an unwitting subject in an experiment.
    2. Not intended; unintentional: an unwitting admission of guilt.


    The government is well aware of the harmful effects of what’s being included in our food but refuses to do anything about it due to the influence of the food cartels.

    You see if you really really want to stamp out obesity, you need to get all parts of the community to galvanise togerther and make a stand. That means Christians working with non-Christians, with food researchers, biochemists, chemists, health industry, education authorities, medical authorities. And presenting a unified front to the government. Praying about it will only get you so far.

    You need action and solidarity, comrade.

  40. Alright Wazza, what’s something you won’t argue against?

    How about this. I think it’s possible to keep a tidy house. Lots of people can’t seem to do it and live like pigs.

    I have an easy solution.


    Okay, I’m waiting… will you agree or will you say that that’s too simplistic? ANd will Bones come up with another crazy conspiracy theory . like multinational capitalist pig dog companies like Ikea and Costco are conspiring to MAKE people buy more things which clutter their houses making it impossible to keep things clean. Not to mention the emotional dependancies that women have to collecting stuff…..
    Maybe also that it would be too Old Testament and hurting children’s sensibilities to keep their room tidy.

    People have excuses for everything these days…

    I think I’ll sentence Wazza to reading book by Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Tony Robbins and then compulsory attendance at Hillsong for 3 consecutive sundays.

  41. “1. Apply dis-incentives to fast-food. Higher taxes (as done for cigarrettes, alcohol etc), as fast food is shown to have similar detrimental health effects,addictiveness and costs to the health system as alcohol and cigarettes. Ban fast-food advertising.

    2. Encourage and promote industries which provide fresh food. Inquire into the duo-opoly in Australia which is the supermarket industry so that consumers and farmers get a fair go.

    3. Encourage employers to provide exercise opportunities at work. Disencourage them from requiring health-averse activities such as excessive overtime.

    4. Educate and promote healthy lifestyles. Discourage masterchef-competitions where fat chefs pour fatty sauces over fried meats.”

    That’s nice.

    Here’s another one.

    Don’t eat so much!

  42. Okay, I am obviously addicted to signpost commenting and try to stop but can’t. It’s addicting. I hate myself after I see how many comments I make and tell myself that I will leave it for a few days.
    But then, I just think I’ll have a peek to see if there is an interesting article, or what the wise people are saying …..and I start.

    Is it genetic? A psychological disorder? A demon? Did Bull set a cookie on my computer which sent out chemicals through my keyboard into my fingers …… Or, did God make me this way and I just need to love myself more, and realize that I was born to be totally annoying and insufferable?

  43. Maybe not so crazy. This is a start.


    The so called Southampton Six food colours are sunset yellow (E110), tartrazine (E102), carmoisine (E122), ponceau 4R (E124), quinoline yellow (E104), and allura red (E129). In a study published in The Lancet in 2007, they were used in mixtures that were linked to hyperactivity in children.

    After a campaign by consumer groups, Aldi has become the first Australian supermarket group to require the removal of the Southampton Six, as well as other colours and preservatives it considers suspect, from it’s products. The deadline it has set is the end of 2009.Natural alternatives may be considered in it’s 205 stores along the Australian east coast.

    “We chose not to wait for it be legislated in Australia as we believe the findings are enough to demonstrate this is the right thing to do,” group managing director Michael Kloeters said.

    A campaign has been underway since September 2008 to encourage the Australian government to ban these six colours, as well as removing benzoate preservatives (210 – 218), sulphites (220-228), propionates (280 – 283) and synthetic antioxidants 310-312 and 319-320. The campaign is called ‘Kids First’ and is backed by Additive Alert, Food Intolerance Network, and Additive Education.

    Aldi is alone in this decision at this stage, as Food Standards Australia New Zealand concludes that because the use of these colours is currently too low to be a public health risk, they will remain permitted by the Food Standards Code. This opinion is based on the results of a survey of usage that was conducted in 2006.

    In July, the Members of the European Parliament voted for products that contain these colours to be labelled “may have an adverse effect on activity and attention in children”. There are some in the food industry that are calling this new requirement t a de facto ban, as there is little likelihood that a food business would want to use this labelling on their products.

    It must be noted that after a review of the Southampton Study, the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) found no scientific evidence supporting the current intake recommendations for any of these food additives. However, based on the European Parliament decision, the EFSA is now conducting a review of all safety data on all food additives.

  44. SM, if you regularly eat at McDonalds, KFC etc and still look like Derek Zoolander you do NOT know what you are talking about.

    You either are about 17 years old, a liar, or an extremely fortunate individual.

    In each case you have no right to judge others, because you have no idea of the struggles they are going through. You seem to have a complete lack of empathy. What job do you do? IT work? And do you have any kids?

  45. (okay, I will cast off my over the top raving and sarcasm)

    Bones, I am fascinated by health and fitness so I do a lot of reading re foods etc.

    To be honest, I just don’t know. I’ve read so many different things about different chemicals in food, coffee, sugar substitute, MSG etc that I don’t really know. I am all for eating as naturally as possible.

    My simple point is that regardless of all the issues, lots of people I know could drink three times more water, and easily eat hundreds of calories less a day and the fat would go off at at least 2ks a month.

    Some things are beyond me but some things are so simply its frustrating watching people ruin their lives and not know why.

    btw, did many of the people you served in the soup kitchen apply for jobs in the country? Up north? Out west? Down south?
    Did they volunteer to sweep the floor in the kitchen?

  46. Many of the ones I saw had issues that would have made them unemployable especially mental and emotional issues.

  47. “SM, if you regularly eat at McDonalds, KFC etc and still look like Derek Zoolander you do NOT know what you are talking about.

    You either are about 17 years old, a liar, or an extremely fortunate individual.

    Neither. I’ve been 25 kgs heavier than what I am now. i’m over 40. I ate at Macdonalds 4 times in the last week. I have a slow metabolism.

    “In each case you have no right to judge others, because you have no idea of the struggles they are going through.”

    I don’t have any ideas of the struggles every person on the planet is going through. But if a person is fat, using 2500 calories a day, but regularly consuming 3000 calories a day, I can tell you both why that person is fat, and how they can get rid of the fat, without knowing about hormones, macro-nutrient ratios, in 95% of cases.

    You seem to have a complete lack of empathy.

    Not al all. I’m probably way to empathetic. If someone were fat, I’d get up at 5 in the morning to go walking/jogging with them, help clean their house, and go on the same diet. I’d even fast for two days with them if I thought it would encourage them. You make a lot of judgements about people. Not just me, but Charismatic preachers. In fact, I would say Wazza, that you are one of the most critical, judgmental people I have ever encountered.

    What job do you do?
    Secret. I’d have to kill you if I told you.

    IT work?
    Not that smart.

    And do you have any kids?
    Yes, and none of them are fat. And I am going to take them to Macdonalds to eat later, and I think I’ll have a shake with them.

    HInt. Sometimes I go to Macdonalds, and order black coffee, water and chicken nuggets or whatever is cheap.

    Other times I might have a Big Mac with water.

    I am in superb physical health.

    Going to macdonalds doesn’t mean you have to order a set with large fries and a sundae as well.

    But if you do, maybe you don’t need to eat so much for the next meal.

    There are a million different ways to stay slim.

    Oh, I also went to a buffet lunch the other day. (But didn’t have breakfast, and just a snack for dinner).
    It’s just calories in and calories out – no matter what they say.

  48. And no we didn’t ask them to sweep the floor. We were serving them. We were being Jesus to them. It was an honour for us. The same with when we visited prisons.

  49. I’ll take that back about being critical. Wazza, I think you’re a very serious person, who cares about people. No doubt much smarter than me. But the older I get, the more I see that we overcomplicate most things.

    I’ve destroyed my life with my temper. Until I realized that the answer was ….just don’t get angry.

    Yeah, I know, that sounds crazy too. But it works. I now know how to not fight with my wife too.

    ….just don’t fight.

    I wasted decades thinking too much.

    Sorry if I offended you btw.

  50. Nah… Not offended SM. Absolutely infuriated sometimes… but in a good way.

    Lets call a truce for a while.

  51. “Many of the ones I saw had issues that would have made them unemployable especially mental and emotional issues.”

    You can have emotional issues and sweep a floor.

    In fact sweeping a floor can be good therapy. Think I’ll go do it now. Bye!

  52. And they obviously never thought to offer right?

    Have you ever been to hospital and had surgery?

    Did you offer to clean up your mess?

  53. BTW back to the original topic. The abortion rate is 2.8% for the world, and I think it is about 2% for Australia.

    That is indeed an astonishingly high figure, and I do think we need to keep bringing it down. I dont know if prohibition is the answer, that will just create a police-state and fill up the jails (thanks Steve for that argument).

    But it should be at least discussed and options put forward.

  54. Okay, I got it.

    Wazza and Bones, gay marriage is cool, abortion is necessary more than ever, we need more prostitutes for the physically handicapped, and if we just get rid of tithing, fast foods, capitalism, Brian Houston, c3 and anyone who mentions the word “prosperity”, the world will be much better.

    Do I hear an Amen?

  55. Can’t help but think that SM definitely believes in the adage:

    God helps those who help themselves.

    That’s probably a good definition of capitalism.

  56. SM, You’ve seen the light. Halleluiah brother!

    Our ushers will give you a liberal-left welcome pack which contains a membership card. And we’ll see you at the next bible-study titled “Did God really say that?”

  57. The answer to the abortion problem isn’t abortion prohibition. That would be a disaster and create a back-street black market nobody wants.

    But pregnancies are actually avoidable. They only occur when a man and a woman have sex together. Babies don’t magic themselves into the womb.

    The solution has to start before people have sex. That’s not easy, of course, but men and women do have power over their own bodies, and, through massively expensive and continual global educational advertising, they have heard the words ‘safe sex’ which is code for condoms or contraception.

    Or, from a Christian perspective, abstention until married, which isn’t such a bad idea after all.

    Maybe God knew something!

  58. Career, loss of employment, financial difficulties, one partner not wanting children, unwilling to change lifestyle, having child too late, birth deformities. Off the top of my head.

    Btw what is the public stance on abortion? Neither party ever wants to take it to an election so I would say most Australians would be for it maybe.

  59. Technically the law is that its illegal, unless the Mother’s health is at risk. This can include mental health.

  60. Bones, I think most Australians are not opposed to abortion.
    But I don’t think many people have really thought it through.

  61. Steve, I agree with you. But I think we in the church have overestimated how easy it is for people to abstain, especially in this day and age. Let’s face it, even in the so called good old days of morality, there were a lot of pregnancies outside of marriage.

    young people – and old people need all the support they can get.

  62. btw, I saw a statistic that 80% of women who see the ultrasound, don’t go through with it.

    Actually, I’d rather not talk about abortion. They say a third of women in the US have had abortions, and in my country it’s no doubt higher. I’ve never had to face the decision myself, so I don’t condemn anyone. But abortion is considered just another form of contraception in some countries, and the fact is that it isn’t just young people who have sex without precautions. It’s 30 yr olds who should know better. So more contraception awareness doesn’t always help. You don’t have to be young to get carried away in the moment.

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