Spontaneous worship!

Something good is happening on our earth. Jesus is being glorified and the Father worshiped. Let the youth of the planet sing His praises! Let the generations of men and women sing glory to His name!

There is revival in the air!

Posted by Steve


205 thoughts on “Spontaneous worship!

  1. Great. Kudos to the musos who didn’t start playing immediately.
    And kudos to the leader who let people praise, pray, be quiet, shout, make a joyful noise, just appreciate being there, clap, lift up their hards etc etc for a long time.

  2. This kind of spontaneous worship seems to happen a lot in these “Jesus Culture” gigs.

    Here’s one in Chicago:

    Here’s another :

  3. Er, thanks wazza2!

    You just put up two other versions of the same event from different angles!

    One event! Not three! 🙂

    Mind you. I do hope this happens in many other places on many other occasions wit many other people, young or old and in between.

    Don’t you?

  4. Nice, Bones. The Indonesian churches tend to be more Pentecostal in their worship. And there are Catholic Charismatics who are similar to their evangelical cousins, who really love God. I have said this before.

    There is a difference in the two videos, though. The one you put up was led by the worship leader who is encouraging the praise. That is wonderful, and it is godly worship, but it is led from the platform. It is what happens in most Pentecostal or charismatic churches, especially in Asia, every weekend. Not unusual.

    But the post I put up is different in that the worship leader was bringing the worship time to a close, but the congregation was prompted to go on for fifteen minutes in a surging praise of God without any prompting or encouragement or leadership form the platform.

    I’m not sure f anyone has watched it all the way through, but it is actually very moving, and it is clear form the young people worshiping that it is genuine and spontaneous adoration of God.

  5. Something similar happened at a Thin Lizzy concert I went to 30 years ago. It was towards the end of the night and everyone was pumped when there was a longer than usual gap between songs and the crowd just started cheering and then picked up their own chorus riff. The band looked on bemused for a while and then copied the crowd’s tune, and so the crescendo built.

    There’s something about big crowd behaviour that can cause people to act in a way they wouldn’t otherwise in a small group. That’s not me being negative regarding this Jesus Culture concert or being disparaging towards the genuinely worshipful people attending, just an observation.

  6. Get a life, zeibart!

    You are so full of ill will you can’t even credit youth for actually worshipping God without it being some kind of psychological fervour.

    What is wrong with you people?

  7. You do want to see the worst in my comments, don’t you? My last sentence gave the credit you say I denied.

    However, be just slightly cognisant of other factors before proclaiming that revival is in tthe air. A secular rock concert will manifest the same things, but it’s great they are praising Jesus here.

  8. “This kind of spontaneous worship seems to happen a lot in these “Jesus Culture” gigs.”

    I hope that everyone realises just how hard it is to orchestrate such spontaneity. Now you know why those hard-working “leaders” who know all about manipulating the masses with lighting, music, crowd dynamics and mesmerism are so highly regarded and widely respected. Not just anyone can whip up a crowd to perform on cue; that’s why people like Brian Houston are so handsomely remunerated – Brian gets paid $300,000 a year (plus expenses and generous benefits, of course).

    Jesus said “I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.”

    It is imperative that the people should be ready to receive the one who will come in his own name, in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Much of what we see in the church today reassures us that they will be.

  9. Hi, Zorro. That reminds me. You still haven’t told us how much you are on in the corporate world. Since you’re out there making money for other people, you must be on a fair bit yourself. Makes me wonder why you have such abad attitude towards people who do well financially.

    On the worship thing…

    Have you ever considered that people can spontaneously worship God with or without lights?

    Philistine! Or is it rich philistine?

  10. “That’s not me being negative regarding this Jesus Culture concert or being disparaging”

    Yes it is!

  11. I agree Greg – I’ve refrained from commenting on this because, to be honest, I’ve developed a very real aversion for most Christian music today.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Jesus Culture the product of Bethel (Bill Johnson’s church) – in their words “they exist to ignite revival in the nations of the earth”. Not with Bethel doctrine they won’t!

    Not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, there are some very good contempory Christian singers/groups.

    May I offer the Getty’s as an example of who may “potentially” ignite revival?

    http://www.gettymusic.com/

    Let sound doctrine be lifted up in song, not the bizarre waffling of Bill Johnson (who stills endorses Todd Bentley and John “tokin the holy ghost” Crowder) and his very sad influence on a younger generation.

  12. “Jesus Culture” = Dominion theology/NAR

    “In the summer of 1999, the youth group led by Banning Liebscher at Bethel Church in Redding, California, launched the first Jesus Culture conference. The heart of these gatherings was to serve other churches and lead young people to experience the radical love of God. At each conference there was a strong presence of the Lord, and the youth and young adults were going back to their homes, schools, work places and churches, completely impassioned and transformed.

    A few years into hosting conferences at Redding, the Lord began to speak to us about a new breed of revivalists that were emerging throughout the earth to answer the cry of God’s yearning for nations. Our mandate was defined: to raise up, mobilize, equip, encourage, resource, and send these burning ones to fulfill the call of God on their lives, and see entire cities saved, campuses revolutionized, and nations discipled. The Lord revealed they would be marked by four main characteristics:

    1. They would be connected with spiritual fathers and mothers and aligned under their covering.
    2. They would be passionately in love with Jesus – encountering His extravagant love for them daily.
    3. They would give their lives to prayer and know how to win the war in the heavens.
    4. They would walk in the supernatural – demonstrating the Kingdom of God through power.

    It soon became very clear to us that worship was to be a significant part of our movement. Kim Walker-Smith, Chris Quilala, and Melissa How were worship leaders at our local youth group, and the Lord began to use them to bring an entire generation into whole-hearted worship.

    Shortly after God commissioned us to mobilize this new breed of revivalists, we began taking Jesus Culture conferences to different regions, and currently hold them in Redding, Orange County, Dallas/Ft Worth, Chicago, Atlanta, and multiple cities through Australia and England. Also, in response to our mandate, Jesus Culture Music and Campus Awakening have been inspired and birthed out of Jesus Culture.

    Jesus Culture Music exists to ignite revival in the nations of the earth. Our heart is to compel the Body of Christ to radically abandon itself to a lifestyle of worship, motivated by a passion to see God receive the glory that is due His name. We long for Jesus to be exalted in the nations and for His manifest presence to invade this world. Although we aspire for people to sing great worship songs, we are primarily committed to see them come into His presence through worship… to encounter His extravagant love and raw power.”

    Rubbish! May God forgive their vanity. “Win the war in the heavens”? Take that, Jesus! What a failure you are!

  13. It’s amazing how people can even criticise others praising God. Too bad. Thankfully He still gets the glory regardless of what these blogs have to say about it.

  14. @ Adam – the Mormon Tabenacle Choir praises the god of their imagination too.

    I have come to the conclusion, sadly, that these young people, for all their passion and zeal, are worshipping God from an unbiblical perspective.

  15. My goodness, just go into a Oneness Pentecostal church, I bet they have great music too.

    For example Phillips, Craig and Dean. Great music. Committed modalists.

  16. I take it you didn’t watch the video, then, either of you, because you couldn’t say that if you had. It was nothing to do with Jesus Culture or Hillsong. That’s the point!

  17. If the point is that God can move among the congregation, surprise the leaders, and then cause the leaders to follow the congregation, I think thats a good thing.

    Do you think it could happen in other areas of church life, Steve? Perhaps in evangelical practice or social justice?

  18. ‘It’s amazing how people can even criticise others praising God. ‘

    It is remarkable Adam Morre isn’t it, but take a few hours to read the Roman Catholic threads and you’ll see plenty there too.

    Whilst all might smell like teen spiritual revival here, it is important to understand the theology that this musical branch of Bethel is rooted into. Kingdom Now to begin with.

  19. “Hi, Zorro. That reminds me. You still haven’t told us how much you are on in the corporate world. Since you’re out there making money for other people, you must be on a fair bit yourself.”

    I am reasonably well remunerated for what I do.

    Mind you, I have a modicum of ability, and I am thus a workman who is worthy of his hire. The same cannot be said of pentecostal pastors, the majority of whom are pompous preening pin-heads who have very little in the way of intelligence, ability or experience. They are to the church what many managers are to corporations – handsomely paid idiots whose ineptitude plumbs such depths that it’s actually difficult to measure. Such “leaders” might present as very big frogs in the small ponds of their sheltered workshop tax havens (a.k.a. “churches”), but they wouldn’t last for five minutes in the real world. (They dimly understand that at some level; it stokes the fires of their deep-seated insecurities and is a contributing factor in the narkiness that lies not too far below the surface of their carefully cultivated personae).

    “Makes me wonder why you have such a bad attitude towards people who do well financially.”

    I have no problems with honest men who do well financially as a result of hard work. However, I have no time at all for those who purport to be men of God, but who in fact have prostituted themselves to the things of the world: who – for the sake of financial gain – twist Scripture, exploit the vulnerable, and impugn God’s name. And, when the time comes for them to be judged, you will see for yourself just how jaundiced is the view that God Himself takes of such impostors.

  20. “[…] social justice […]”.

    There’s only one sort of justice, and it’s the justice that comes from God.

  21. ”Have you ever considered that people can spontaneously worship God with or without lights?”

    Did YOU watch it closely, or were you so taken that a Christian crowd could cheer for 10 minutes? Firstly, the ‘spontaneity’ commenced at the worship leader’s invitation. The praise ebbed several times, but mostly flowed when the lights changed sequence, and definitely picked up when the drummer kicked in. It then just became a chant which the band ramped up.

    So, is that what revival looks like?

    ”What is wrong with you people?” Well, some of us can apply a little peripheral wisdom when viewing a snapshot of a lively CCM gig.

  22. So you were being critical after all, zeibart. Why not admit it in the first place. Not at all over it. I’m actually appalled at the reaction to these young people’s worship form so many here. I thought you at least would have some kind of openness. But no. Very saddened by your response.

    Zorro. I’m actually speechless at your hypocrisy. Even a JW wouldn’t be so arrogant about their finances. And your opinion of the worship of these young men and women is predictable but nevertheless poison.

    Margot. Unbelievable religious snobbery. I’d have to say it’s almost akin to some kind of falsely pious spite or envy.

    Greg,it has as much to do with worshipping God as when I go to the toilet!

    What a vile man you are towards those young people, especially as one who works with them. Shameful!

    Wazza. I’m not sure how this relates to social justice issues, which, in many ways are subjective. Hopefully there will be the kind of accompanying revival which touches a community with profound change, including these things. At least you let these young people worship.

    I feel that the world is in need of a life changing move of God. I don’t think this is it. But it is encouraging to see adoration for God being displayed in another generation of youth. I am hungry for God to bring profound change and repentance to communities. It bodes well if young people can worship Him openly and without shame.

    I’m sad to see the reaction to what I thought was a brighter view of one thing happening in the Church.

  23. The only criticism I have is towards your incorrect introductory statement (let’s be generous and call it ‘well-meaning exaggeration’). No doubt some of the 15000 crowd were worshipping God, but also, many will have been swept along by the emotion of that occasion. Emotion is no bad thing, just don’t attach revival to a corporate response which although not outwardly manipulated, the effects team and band clearly kept the wheel spinning.

    Greg seems to have countered what he saw as your hyperbole with hyperbole, and Margot correctly called into play the band’s home church, which is rooted in some very questionable teachings from their senior pastor.

    Put it all together and you see that which is the balance to your initial claim that we are witnessing a sea-change in the spirituality of youth (in that city).

    So please don’t come over all shocked and saddened. I too want to see my kids’ generation give their all to God. I would want to see more evidence, however, that this was happening than 15 mins of crowd dynamics the like of which you can witness in secular concerts.

  24. My comments:
    Something good is happening on our earth. Jesus is being glorified and the Father worshiped. Let the youth of the planet sing His praises! Let the generations of men and women sing glory to His name!

    There is revival in the air!

    1 Something good is happening in the earth.

    I think it is something good when young people worship God, whatever the context, as long as it is genuine, and I have no reason to doubt that this is.

    2 Jesus is being glorified and the Father worshiped.

    That is also something good, and no exaggeration or hyperbole. If God is being praised or worshipped we should be glad.

    3 Let the youth of the planet sing His praises!

    That is a prayer. There is nothing hyperbolic about it.

    4 Let the generations of men and women sing glory to His name!

    Again, a prayer for generations to worship God. It was a spontaneous remark which came form enjoyment of seeing young people freely praising God.

    5 There is revival in the air!

    How is that hyperbole? It is both a hope and an expectation, a cry of appreciation for the praise going up from youth in a meeting.

    Greg’s reaction was to compare it to going to the toilet. That is such a foul remark, and yet you defend it as a valid response to my words above.

    Dear Lord. You need help!

    The whole point is that, regardless of the ‘home church’ of the band, or the involvement of Hillsong, whatever that may be, the youth in the video appeared to me to be genuinely and heartily worshipping God, praising God and carried away into the high praises.

    Margot’s remarks were completely uncalled-for.

    I am shocked by your response. I really am.

  25. Let me tell you something. Bones put up a video of Charismatic Catholic praise in Indonesia, and it was clearly heartfelt and genuine.

    There is no way that I would criticise that because of the false dogma I know some are subject to. God cuts through all of that. Their focus was Jesus.

    That is why worship is so powerful in such gatherings. It was different in that it was led by a song-leader, but led worship is not wrong. It is normal. It is Biblical. They were still lost in God in their adoration.

    What is extraordinary is when people go into the high praises without being led by any human influence, when the Holy Spirit takes hold of them and lifts them to a higher place in Him to worship the Father.

    I would be just as appreciative if I saw Reformed youth lost in worship before God, and I’m sure they are on many occasions.

    It is not doctrine which makes us worship God, but a heart attitude towards Him, a desire to reach out to Him, a hunger and a thirst for God.

    You had the gall to compare it to a Thin Lizzy concert, where the only spirits being worshipped were demonic, and, yes, there is demonic worship, drug fuelled and alcohol induced, where revellers are carried away by the raw emotion and power of the occasion. Greg had the superfluously filthy recall of his own potty-brain as his comparison. What does he worship, one wonders. No, sorry, I don’t want to go there.

    All Margot could do was run around like a headless chook and bump into some unrelated doctrinal excuse for not being glad for these young people of Chicago, where drugs and vice are king amongst many youth, but this group showed forth the praises of God for all the earth to see.

    Well, all the earth except margot, and zeibart and Greg, and of course Zorro, who can’t see further than his own bank-balance, and clearly upholds the reign of Mammon.

    But there is no comparison between this and the true worship in song and praise that is accorded to the Father through the Spirit.

    God is disposed to apprehending the most unusual people when He brings revival and change. He tends to reveal Himself in the strangest ways to the most unexpected of crowds, and He rarely begins with the self-pumping piously correct. I guess that’s because he avoids pride like the plague.

  26. @ Steve – I don’t like being critical about this, I’m bothered about my attitude too. And it doesn’t take much to start your insulting “rant” so that doesn’t help.

    Having spent the last 5 years singing a ” new song” probably predisposes me to feeling this way. The songs we sing during our worship are rich with doctrine and praise. Verse after verse after verse, not a catchy 7/11 jingle with drums (very interesting how that influences the atmosphere)

    The Bethel influence is not good and this “revival” in the air – well, we all know the Warragambah Dam overflowed so it must coming, right?

  27. Would be interesting to hear how you define true worship and true revival.

    It is God Himself who determines what true worship is, and feeling sincere (or feeling good doing it) doesn’t define what true worship is.

    It’s all just “experience”-oriented these days

    These “momentary ” praise concerts come across as orchestrated. Just reading the link above proves that, along with the claim that God has revealed this to them. May God forgive them. I suppose God revealed to them that Todd Bentley should be restored too and John Crowder is of God (it’s the same church/group).

    Would God really commision “a new breed of revivalists” from Bethel Redding? Do the backgound research on these folks.

    Matthew 15:9 “In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men”

    Romans 12:1-2 ” “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable, or well pleasing and perfect.”

  28. Steve, your description of Spirit-led or inspired worship is all correct and I wouldn’t disagree one jot with the heart desire to see this happen as a normal experience for our world-laden young folk. The ‘but’ you say I always have is that I take exception to you saying the clip had the whiff of revival and was spontaneous, and for the reasons I outlined.

    Swallowing everything that LOOKS like God as actual evidence of God can be a recipe to go after that which mimics light but is in fact darkness. Obviously a secular rock band can reproduce what a Christian band can do regarding the crowd response, and I am NOT saying the concert was in that bracket. You may have felt others spilled over into insult; I am comfortable that I sit more cautiously than where you are and choose to weigh the claim before jumping in wholeheartedly.

    A personal confession, Steve, and one which I wrestle with, is that sometimes my caution might well cause me to miss God and I don’t want to make that a regular thing clearly. Like Margot, my response does not come lightly.

  29. I wasn’t ‘ranting’, margot. I was responding, with surprise at your lack of grace towards youthful exuberance for God. I was responding to your rant which was accusative, focused entirely on the wrong aspect, and wondering all over the place with unrelated comparisons.

    As I said a couple of times, it was not about Jesus Culture, or Hillsong. It was about young people in a large gathering worshipping God, and how wonderful that is.

    Some of the great hymns and choruses of the past are glorious examples of praise and worship. There is no problem with this. There are many ways of worshipping God. Our lifestyle should glorify Him. But the focus of this post was on a spontaneous worship in a crowd of youth at a concert.

    The fact is that there was no song being sung during the worship time in the video, apart from a spontaneous melody at about the nine minute mark, which the band didn’t know because they were working pretty hard to pick up the key and chord sequence before joining in at the end.

    If you look at the faces of the congregants you will see they are focused on praising God, apart from a few who were trying to capture the moment on video, which is always going to happen these days with some, but mostly the people were adoring God with hands lifted high.

    The lighting person was not very sensitive to what was happening, and I think was a little distracting, if there was any criticism to be had, but he seems to have backed off after a while and let it go. maybe even the band could have let the crowd carry on an who knows where it would have gone. Those things are speculative, and when things are spontaneous like this it’s hard to tell where they’ll go.

    But the fact is that these youth were lost in God for a few minutes, and we should thank God for it.

    zeibart,
    I didn’t swallow anything. I know what worship is. I have been in spontaneous worshipping crowds before and understand how people are swept up in adoration of God on certain occasions beyond the normal. This was an example.

    It was not orchestrated. It was spontaneous. It was hungered for. They thirsted after God and went on beyond the arranged music into their own praise.

    It’s not hard to see, if you want to that is.

  30. @ Steve – I’ve been there, caught up “in the moment”. Yet walked away, still unsatisfied. Deep in my heart knowing that was me striving to please God on some level yet to be reached and apparently already attained (in my mind) by those around me.

    I felt manipulated, seduced (strong word but true), drawn into rhythyms produced by steady drum beats and repetitive choruses. Week after week after week, year after year, exhausted emotionally and spiritually.

    And now……?

    Speak the Word of God, speak or sing the psalms, and there is utter repentance, forgiveness and peace producing such a heart of worship in me, that I’ve never experienced before.

  31. In a discussion about Bethel/Bill Johnson/Jesus Culture, a comment came up that well applies to manufacturing or creating atmospheres at events like these..

    “”I think the greatest weakness in the church today is that almost no one believes that God invests His power in the Bible. Everyone is looking for power in a program, in a methodology, in a technique, in anything and everything but that in which God has placed it – His Word. He alone has the power to change lives for eternity, and that power is focused on the Scriptures.”

  32. Again, Margot, it’s not about Bethel, or Hillsong, or you.

    Of course we all appreciate doctrine, and the Word of God is precious and to be followed.

    But we don’t worship by doctrine or by rote or by persuasion or by force or by regulation or rules or law.

    We worship in the Spirit, because of who He is.

    God seeks worshippers. Those who worship in Spirit and in Truth.

    This isn’t a liturgical hymn service. This is spontaneous worship. In a group of young people.

    There were no drums until the very end. Two minutes at the end of fifteen. There was no accompanying musical instrument but the voices and hands of the young people.

    You clearly didn’t even watch it. If you had, you’d know that.

  33. I mean, Charles Wesley used the pub tunes of the day and added scriptural lyrics to them and they were the hymns of the times.

    Booth used the pub music of his day with trumpets and bassoons and trombones and snare drums bass drums and tambourines, and was frowned upon for it.

    What are you trying to say?

    Drums are evil! Electric instruments are of the devil! Rhythms are demonic!

    In some situations undoubtedly. But it was God who put together the sequential structure of music. He invented the power of praise and the eloquence of worship.

    The devil, being formerly a worship angel in the Garden, stole God’s own creation and turned it around to worship himself and his demons.

    So all we need to know is how to take back what the devil stole.

    Well, that is so simple! We worship God and not demons! Der!

    But you’ll always have trouble with drums and guitars and keyboards because the enemy has got into your head, and you can’t consider that God can use any instrument, even in the hands of a true worshipper, as a means of adoration.

    But, lo and behold, for most of the video clip, there were no instruments but the voices of the youth.

    No instruments, margot!

  34. @ Steve – let’s assume for a minute that the people attending this event are mostly the product of Hillsong and Bethel. Did they or do they ever hear the true gospel in the churches they attend?

    Are they praising the Jesus of the Bible or the Jesus of Hillsong/Bethel?

    And how easy is it to caught up in the emotion of the moment. We have been in exactly the same situation and atmospere (slightly smaller venue), responding the same way.

    Love to give them the benefit of the doubt but “been there, done that”.

    And of course I watched it. Even noticed the girl texting (as you do when you praise God spontaneously 🙂 )

  35. And that, of course, is what you were looking for.

    She may have been an unsaved visitor texting a friend about what was happening (as you do when you’re seventeen these days).

    I guess the moral of this exercise is to not bother putting up a positive post or video on a site where the majority of the contributors are against anything Pentecostal or charismatic having anything whatsoever decent or good to say.

    Very sad. For this site I mean.

    Let’s assume nothing, margot, except that the people present genuinely wanted to be at an event where they could freely worship God.

    Yes, let’s!

  36. There have been many shameful, unwarranted attacks on pentecostal worship on this site, but this one just about takes the cake for meanness.

  37. No I wasn’t looking for that Steve, it caught my eye. Because I was watching the clip you keep saying I hadn’t!

    Why are you being so dramatic (“shameful, unwarranted attacks”)?

    Did you honestly expect us all to say it was wonderful and just so of “God”? In light of all the information available for us to research and investigate the background of such ministries?

    To you it’s a positive affirmation of Pentecostal worship, I don’t have a problem with that – for me, it simply brought up some painful memories of manipulative “worship”.

  38. By the way I don’t have a problem with drums, guitars and keyboards because apart from classical music, some of my favourite bands are the Black Keys, Queens of the Stone Age and shock/ horror I love Nickelback!

  39. That’s just it, margot. I don’t really care if it’s pentecostal or not. It’s worship. It’s spontaneous. It’s youth. It’s good. It’s wonderful.

    I think it was you and Greg who were being dramatic. You judgementally. Greg obscenely so.

    That is what ‘caught my eye’.

  40. Greg’s comment reminded me of something C3’s Ps Mark Saundercock once said – it was back in 1990 at Bible College. He said he did his best worship/bible study in the toilet.

    He wasn’t joking, I wasn’t offended.

  41. His words were, ‘it has as much to do with worshipping God as when I go to the toilet! ‘

    So you defend Greg’s potty mouth and condemn worshipping youth!

    Isn’t there scripture about when you call evil good and good evil, Margot?

    You’re a Bible person. Perhaps you can locate it for us.

  42. I’m sure Greg can defend himself but it seems to me that Greg was simply expressing his view (bluntly) of the clip.

    That’s the dynamic of this blog, “all views expressed are not necessarily those of………..etc etc”

    ” ….but it has as much to do with worshipping God as when I go to the toilet! ” – what if Greg’s experience of going to the toilet is generally enjoyable?

    Perhaps Greg had better come back and explain himself more clearly?

    Greg. Greg! Greg?

  43. Actually this was a great post – because it shows the differences here, and made me realize more than even why I will probably always be in the middle of most arguments.

    First, in general, when I know that Christians are getting raped, killed, maimed, imprisoned in different parts of the world, and in the US and Australia it seems that so many people seem to relish attacking anything Christian – whether it’s the Catholics, evangelicals, or fundamentalists, I try to give the benefit of the doubt.
    So, to me, it seems like a good, positive thing for what appears to be a large number of Christians praising God and/or enjoying being together with Christians of other churches for an extended period of time.

    To me, it’s more encouraging than hearing that the head of ministry committed suicide after being investigated for allegedly molesting a 10yr old. So..I’m happy to just say that it was a cool video – even thought I could probably come up with a lot of “but”s or “What about”s.

    But, I’m differ from you Steve in that I’m not ready to say “look, it’s revival”, simply because I don’t know anymore what “revival” is, and I don’t know that what I saw will be repeated, and even if it is, whether it will be of lasting wide scale significance. But, I understand Steve’s frustration at posting something that he thought would be beyond negative posts. But in the end, there is nothing anyone could post that wouldn’t be seen as not necessarily good by someone.

    Then, now I realize I am some kind of old woman! You are all probably just a lot “cooler” than I ever was or will be.
    “Black Keys, Queens of the Stone Age, Nickelback??

    I know Black Sabbath, Queen, and Stevie Nix, but these three? Nup, never heard of them.

    And as for Greg and Ps Saundercock’s toilet comments? No, a little uncouth for me. Heck, I’d even find it hard to use that Pastor’s surname without blushing…

    As for the texting? that’s not a biggie. If they had iPhones at the Sermon on the Mount you might have picked up some funny people doing funny things. (Anyone see the LIfe of Brian?)

    Shalom!

  44. @ SM – I’m 63 (some kind of old woman) 🙂

    What’s matters to me more than anything, even a “feel good” experience, is that the Gospel is presented and represented truthfully.

    Ever seen those clips of people apparently manifesting the Holy Spirit and worshipping, then you realise it’s a clip from an ashram somewhere with westerners attending? Scarily similar.

    My angst is obviously against Bethel/Hillsong etc because I don’t believe they present the Gospel nor do they know how to handle God’s Word rightly.

    One only has to listen to the first 20 mins of a sermon (if you can) to see that.

    I like to go “behind the scenes” before accepting things at face value.

  45. “[C3′s Ps Mark Saundercock] said he did his best worship/bible study in the toilet.”

    So should we therefore conclude that his theology is crap?

  46. “Zorro, who can’t see further than his own bank-balance, and clearly upholds the reign of Mammon.”

    It’s just so hard to please pentecostals, isn’t it?

    Intimate to Phil “God Wants You to be Rich” Pringle that you reckon the prosperity Gospel is a load of old cobblers, and he’ll wheel out that sad old strawman “you obviously have a poverty mindset”, and he’ll flog it half to death and then tear it to bits with his bare hands.

    But tell Steve “Revival’s in the Air” that by dint of hard and honest toil you are reasonably well paid in your profession, and you will discover that you are a money-grubbing Mammon-worshipper.

    So tell me, Steve, just how much money do you think I should have? Do you think that I’d have a right to my riches if I’d amassed them by falsely claiming to possess a Doctorate of Philosophy and by flogging worthless self-help books? Perhaps I should have lied on my CV the way some “ministers” are in the habit of doing – if I’d claimed to have a PhD, maybe I could have a scored a job with a higher salary.

  47. Revival’s in the air
    My theology’s not sound
    Revival’s in the air
    How come I feel so bound?

    And I’m really being quite foolish
    And it’s clear that I’m not being wise
    ‘Cause it’s dodgy what I believe in
    And I’ll listen to all sorts of lies

    Revival’s in the air
    And it’s all about me
    Revival’s in the air
    But it doesn’t come for free

    And I know that it’s just the lighting
    And the crowd they all feel the same
    But there’s nothing that I won’t believe in
    And we’ll worship a man with a name

  48. Yes, well don’t give up your day job, Zorro.

    I don’t really give much of a rip how much you earn. Go for it. Make a pile. I’m sure you do, since you’re so highly valued in your corporate world.

    And please, don’t try to justify your high income with how great you are at your job, and how valued you are by your corporation, or how hard you’ve had to work to get the qualifications to become rich. I’m happy if you enjoy the fact that you are blessed and can give bigger offerings than most.

    Just don’t make up whiney reasons for pastors not being well looked after by their congregations for the hard work they do. Or claim, erroneously, that every Pentecostal pastor is making a large living. Most are not.

    There is actually a cost involved in Pastoring a local church of any size. A greater cost than you’ll ever know. But that’s what jesus told us, didn’t he? It costs to follow him.

    I wonder what it costs you to be elevated in your corporate office as you throw insults out the window at the pastors you despise with your empty words.

    They do what they do because of the call of God on their lives. Many have left secular employment where they could make far more to oversee a local church simply to serve God and his people.

    Maybe a handful of megachurch leaders are in a position to make more, but why would you, of all people, begrudge another a decent income when you expect one yourself?

    I find your attacks, which you introduced, hypocritical. More so in view of the fact that you didn’t even read the book you brought up in the first place to attack Pentecostals.

    You go ahead with your honest toil, Zorro, or whoever you are, and I hope you make a packet, but I urge you to step back and actually take a good look at the men and women who serve in small towns and in in medium sized local churches up and down the country, who won’t ever be able to come anywhere near your income, but who love and shepherd God’s people, regardless of whether they’re Anglican, Uniting Church, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Baptist, Church of Christ, Charismatic, or whatever, and who mostly do what they do for the love of the sheep, not to build someone else’s financial or corporate empire in the sun in some capital city High Street whilst looking down on the rest of the world as if it is a mere pleb-dom dominated by the high-rise giants.

    But don’t step back too far. It’s along way down from the pinnacle of Mammon.

  49. Oh, I got you completely wrong, then, Greg!

    When you said ‘it has as much to do with worshipping God as when I go to the toilet’, you actually meant that, because you spend most of your time worshipping God on your toilet, they, therefore, must have been worshipping God.

    That is what you are saying, isn’t, because you said you actually enjoy going to the toilet to spend some time with God and worship him and read your Bible. So it means something profound to you to go to the toilet.

    Therefore your comparison means that they too were having a profound encounter with God and it was reflected in their praise.

    I thought you were saying that their worship was as mundane as going to the toilet and not reflective of their emotional and spiritual state at the time.

    It just goes to show that you have to be careful how you read into what people write.

  50. And I have already pointed out somewhere that worship is far more than singing songs n a service, or getting carried away in a worship event.

    It is a lifestyle.

    It is a constant reflection of our devotion to God, and can be demonstrated in every aspect of our lives, from the mundane to the ecstatic.

    However, I find your reticence to enjoy these young people in praise very weird indeed.

  51. And I asked the question “Are they worshipping the Jesus of the bible or the Jesus of Bethel/Hillsong?”

    Why are we warned about false Christs and false teachers in the last days and at what point do we finally address the problem that this may be exactly what we are seeing?

  52. Worship isn’t of the mind, Margot. It’s of the heart and spirit. One day you’ll get it. I hope.

  53. What you’re really pushing for is a debate on Bethel or Hillsong. Why not set it up on another thread. Write the post and send it to Greg or Bull.

    Let the kids worship God.

  54. “Yes, well don’t give up your day job, Zorro.”

    My bad: I should have specifically stated that my lyrics should be sung to the tune of John Paul Young’s “Love is in the Air”. There – is that better now?

    I have been informed by someone who has written advertising jingles professionally that I could do quite well out of that line of work myself. But perhaps you’re a better judge of that, eh? After all, if I was all that gifted, I’d be a pentecostal pastor, wouldn’t I?

  55. I’m quite aware of what true worship is. And there’s no debate required, the group are representing Bethel and their teaching.

  56. I don’t know about jingles, Zorro.

    You’d be better at comedy sketch writing. Some of your stuff is hilarious.

  57. Margot,
    In a discussion about Bethel/Bill Johnson/Jesus Culture, a comment came up that well applies to manufacturing or creating atmospheres at events like these..

    “”I think the greatest weakness in the church today is that almost no one believes that God invests His power in the Bible. Everyone is looking for power in a program, in a methodology, in a technique, in anything and everything but that in which God has placed it – His Word. He alone has the power to change lives for eternity, and that power is focused on the Scriptures.”

    In fact, that was a passage from Calvinist R. C. Sproul’s book ‘The Prayer of the Lord’, which may or may not be a great read, but was certainly not discussing anything to do with Bethel, Bill Johnson or Jesus Culture.

    In essence I would agree with his statement, but the context has nothing whatsoever to do with 15,000 young people enjoying the presence of God in a concert, most of whom were probably already saved, and most of whom were there to be with friends, demonstrate their faith in God and enjoy a concert with Christian inspired music.

  58. Although Paul would add that God demonstrates His power and grace through the Spirit as well as the Word.

    1 Corinthians 2
    3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
    4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
    5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

    I hope Mr Sproul makes mention of this somewhere along the line, because God invests more than His Word in us. His Spirit gives context to the Word, ‘for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life’.

    And, of course it is accessed by faith in those who believe the Promises of God.

    Galatians 3
    5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? —
    6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

    So the Spirit and Word do not just ‘happen’. There is an interaction between the grace Giver and the faith receiver, the Blesser and the blessed, the Former being Greater.

    So I would say that there is more to it than the Word, although without the Word everything is powerless.

  59. Do any of you see a difference between praise and worship? I do.
    For all you bible people, do a simple word search of the word worship in the bible and think about what people were doing when it said they worshiped. Interesting.

    I think we’ve made a monster out of “worship ministry”. All these endless debates and seminars about key changes, going longer, going shorter and leaving people wanting more, use of lighting, use of speakers, balance of slow songs, fast songs, how many times choruses should be repeated. I’m personally tired of it.

    btw, I don’t like the use of lights personally. But I don’t see them as sin. Christians over the years have spent lots of money on things like lighting, smoke machines, steeples, statues, stained glass windows, candles, etc, etc. I don’t need them, and think they are often a distraction and I can easily live without them all. But they aren’t sin and many people seem to want them. I know there are good people with good hearts standing and singing without music in orthodox churches, shouting in pentecostal churches, and just sitting in silence in centuries old anglican churches.

    I’m happier seeing 15,000 young people in a Jesus concert enjoying themselves than going out and shooting up drugs or beating people up.

    It amazes me what Christians can argue about.

    I guess I’m too simplistic.

  60. @ Peter @ Roundhouse –

    Our relationship with James is one of mutual love & respect.

    Go and do likewise. Enough said.

  61. But I just had an idea. Isn’t it fantastic that 15,000 people from all different churches can get together for hours for a “praise” concert or whatever it is.

    Here’s an idea for the powers that be. Imagine how much good in a community even 10,000 volunteers could do for a day.

    Maybe on a Saturday we could get 10000 people together and totally clean up some area, or feed some people, or paint some buildings or whatever, and then get together at night at sing/clap etc. There’d still be people who will find fault, but they are all kinds of ways to glorify God or worship – as Greg said.

  62. @ SM – bottomline, Jesus Culture is the product of an abberant ministry (Bill Johnson/Bethel Redding).

    And as I’ve said before, (May 1, 7:36 comment) “been there, done that” – felt my experience was totally of God and it simply wasn’t.

    There seems to be a lot of “eat the meat, spit out the bones” going on here. Not a healthy attitude when it comes to doctrine. Our spiritual health is of great importance, wouldn’t you agree?

    So coming back to Jesus Culture, what is the spirit behind it and is it of God?

    Let’s check the links again – Todd Bentley, John Crowder, Rick Joyner, NAR, Kingdom Now etc etc. I’m not buying it.

    There are also those who can speak first hand….

    http://mkayla.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/bethels-jesus-culture-awakening/

  63. “Peter and Roundhouse, that’s troublemaking”

    @ SM – Thankyou, even Steve has known who I am for a long time, and would never stoop that that level.

    Up to this point, the dialogue is healthy and challenging but ‘trolling’ like that is hardly Christlike.

  64. @Peter,

    “I don’t think God has too much concern over using whatever means to enhance a worship experience.”

    Actually, the big concern is idiots who are stupid enough to believe that worship is “an experience”, and who, moving forward from that premise, go absolutely nowhere spiritually speaking at a great rate of knots.

    (And we don’t “connect” with God, either).

  65. @ Peter – the topic is limited to Bethel/Hillsong because the clip was a joint venture by those two organisations.

    Am I troubled by the link between Bill Johnson and C3 (particularly as keynote speaker, again, at Presence 2013)?

    Very concerned.

  66. “Who does James worship[,] Margot? The Jesus of the Bible of [sic] the Jesus of C3 San Diego? Is there a difference?”

    Yes, there is a difference: the Jesus of the Bible is the real one.

  67. “I don’t know about jingles, Zorro.”

    You don’t know much about anything, Steve.

    “You’d be better at comedy sketch writing.”

    Out of the mouths of clueless bags of wind – I also have a comic gift, Steve, and have been encouraged by many to try my hand at stand-up; unfortunately I’ve got other fish to fry.

    (I know that such revelations are contrary to your firmly held notion that only spiritual “leaders” can actually have a multiplicity of gifts; maybe it’s time for you to rethink the trammelled world-view to which you are so firmly wedded).

    On the subject of hypocrites who are ill-informed because they haven’t read a particular book, are you aware that Phil Pringle purports to preach but actually presents as one who has never read the Bible?

  68. @ Roundhouse – it’s easy to hide behind a pseudonym.

    If you are a C3 member, I feel sorry for them. You are a really bad representative.

  69. @ Peter – there is a community on FB, a support group, for those who have family still involved, and those who came out the teachings of Bethel. Do we throw them under the bus or do we prayerfully consider their pain and experiences, and test them (Bethel) against scripture.

    Again and again I ask, do ‘experiences’ trump scripture?

    I include myself among those who allowed a personal ‘experience’ to define the scriptures.

    Then I read 2 Peter 1:19 “And we also have a more sure Word of prophecy, to which you do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place…”

    Have you ever seen people under the influence of experiences they have had under eastern mysticism

    Just this afternoon, in response to an enquiry I made, I was sent this……I make no comment

  70. “Why is it ok for her and her husband to ….”

    What you are doing is different. Think about it.

  71. @ SM etc – just as a point of full disclosure, ‘simul iustus et peccator’ is my pseudonym, not my husband (who doesn’t blog), WordPress does that sometimes.

    Roundhouse knows nothing of the internal workings of our relationship with those on staff/attending C3 and if he/she did, a little less enquiry would be made.

  72. @Peter,

    “So Zorro – you don’t choose to ‘abide’ in Christ.”

    LOL.

    What about you, Peter? Are you one of those for whom abiding in Christ is synonymous with abiding in C3? Is your C3 church really a “portal”, “the house of God”, and the “gate of heaven”? In following your pastor are you, by definition, following God? Have you abandoned both good doctrine and good sense to submit yourself to a mere man?

    “And you only approach God from positional truth and not experiential truth?”

    London to a brick that you would believe a C3 pastor if they preached “Jesus said ‘I am the way, the positional truth, the experiential truth, and the life'”.

    Truth is truth. The last thing we need is more pseudo-spiritual whackos like you running around and wrapping up every single bit of Scripture in obfuscatory waffle so that they can sound clever. (Here’s a tip for you: it has the inverse effect).

    “At least now all your lame remarks make sense! Please don’t bore me with semantics.”

    Risible stuff. What’s lame is adults speaking like insecure pimply-faced adolescents in the school yard. What are you, fourteen years old or something?

  73. So it’s you Greg. I should have known. You are a muck-raker of the highest order. You of all here are the biggest hypocrite. Oh, well, back to commenting on sites that allow free-speech, rather than this one-sided excuse for a “Christian” site

  74. And for your info, none of my comments have been designed to cause pain and hurt. Interestingly, whether by design or accident, the posts by you, Margot, Zorro etc do actually cause pain and hurt. Just sayin

  75. Greg, it was never a personal attack. I don’t operate like that. It is a genuine question. I ask again – why is Margot allowed to personally slander Phil Pringle, Bill Johnson, Hillsong et al, yet for some reason her own C3 Pastor son is off limits? Surely blind freddy can see the hypocrisy in this?

  76. “point me to a post where anyone has attached another person family or personal relationship and i will delete it.”

    I can’t find the link, but I seem to remember a disparaging post about Rebecca Pringle. I also remember reading stuff about Josh Kelsey. And another about Joel Houston. There is personal stuff all over this blog. Or is it just personal stuff about those who share your own views that offends you so much?

  77. “why is Margot allowed to personally slander Phil Pringle, Bill Johnson, Hillsong et al […]”

    Heads up: it’s not slander if it’s true.

  78. Thats up to you Greg however I did not make any disparaging remarks to margot.
    All the best.

  79. ” it’s not slander if it’s true.”

    That’s a very definitive statement Zorro. How do you know if it’s wrong or not? Is it wrong according to John MacArthur? According to James White? Chris Roseborough? Your own interpretation of what you read? Your own worldview? What makes you right?

  80. I’ve always expressed great admiration for Josh Kelsey, do love my Reformed guys.

    Slander is an interesting word, however there is a public domain (media) well used by pastors today to allow the world to hear their preaching. Tell us how we are to discern the scriptural integrity of these men if we don’t make some sort of judgement about their teaching?

    Matthew Henry Commentary

    “Every faithful minister may humbly adopt Christ’s words. His doctrine is not his own finding out, but is from God’s word, through the teaching of his Spirit. And amidst the disputes which disturb the world, if any man, of any nation, seeks to do the will of God, he shall know whether the doctrine is of God, or whether men speak of themselves.

    Only those who hate the truth shall be given up to errors which will be fatal. Surely it was as agreeable to the design of the sabbath to restore health to the afflicted, as to administer an outward rite.

    Jesus told them to decide on his conduct according to the spiritual import of the Divine law. We must not judge concerning any by their outward appearance, but by their worth, and by the gifts and graces of God’s Spirit in them.”

    As Christians, it is our responsibilty to test all things against the Word. Rather like our looking at our bibles in church before we left C3, and realising that what was being said, did not line up when put back in context with the surrounding text.

    So if our disgreeing with, and saying so publically, is slander, you need to look up the definition of the word.

    It was A. W. Tozer who said, “So skilled is error at imitating truth, that the two are constantly being mistaken for each another. It takes a sharp eye these days to know which brother is Cain and which is Abel.”

  81. @ Peter – thankyou, I would have liked to continue our converstion.

    We gave up a lot leaving C3, but have no regrets and we love walking in the now clearer understanding of His sovereign grace and mercy towards us.

  82. “Tell us how we are to discern the scriptural integrity of these men if we don’t make some sort of judgement about their teaching?”

    Obviously we judge what they say by scripture.

    It’s fine to judge what anyone teaches by scripture. In fact, we are doing ourselves a disservice if we don’t. But you don’t just judge their words. You judge them! You stand in judgement over them, their church, their church members, their movement, and their motives, as if you are God Himself!

    “So if our disgreeing with, and saying so publically, is slander, you need to look up the definition of the word.”

    Slander: make false and damaging statements about someone

    Your comments are most definitely damaging, and it can be safely argued that your comments about their doctrine is false, ergo, you are engaging in slander

    And, why do you feel the need to slander them publicly anyway? Why can’t you just let them destroy themselves on their own, if they’re preaching the wrong doctrine? It does no one any good, including you, to spew this slime over them

  83. @ Roundhouse – Comparing what people say “in the name of God, about the Word of God, to the Word of God,” is how we measure them, not by comparing them to other men.

    Our own minister tells us to test him against the Word almost every Sunday, to ask questions at the end of the sermon as a public forum. Should try it, it’s quite refreshing.

  84. “That’s a very definitive statement Zorro. How do you know if it’s wrong or not?”

    There are two sources of revelation: the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Between those, anyone can know the truth who wants to.

    “What makes you right?”

    I’m not right – God is. I’m just in agreement with Him.

  85. “I’m just in agreement with Him.”

    How do you know? I’m sure that Phil Pringle and Bill Johnson say the same thing about themselves. How do you know they aren’t right and you’re wrong?

  86. @ Peter @ roundhouse – about Bill Johnson.

    Did Jesus lay aside His divinty as Bill Johnson claims? Johnson teaches that during His ministry on earth Christ laid aside His divinity

    ” “He performed miracles, wonders, and signs, as a man in right relationship to God . . . . not as God. If He performed miracles because He was God, then they would be unattainable for us”

    Let’s assume Johnson is right (for a moment) then Jesus is no longer unique, that He only had the right kind of faith and a right kind of relationship with God therefore we can all do what Jesus did if we just have the right kind of faith and relationship?

    How’s it working for you? Got it right yet? In perfect relationship/faith yet? Good luck, you are then the unique ones!

    Does it sound like the same kind of WOF heresy that Jesus lost His divinity and suffered in hell as a man?

    But the truth is, diety took on humanity – he did NOt lay aside his diety. Jesus was fully human, fully God. Which brings us full circle to the “hypostatic union”.

    But Bill Johnson has “warned us off scholarly study” because he claims it will make us spiritually dead.

    There’s a lot of young men and women being targeted and deceived by this movement, and I’ll be the first to admit, they are probably having profound “experiences” – experiences that are intoxicating and addictive.

    Sounds like heresy to me, not slander.

  87. To continue – Bill Johnson has rejected sound exegesis and fallen headlong into theological error.

    Again on his assumptions about Christ laying aside His diety.

    I’ll quote from R.C Sproul’s book (just for Steve :)) ……

    “How Could Jesus Be Both Human and Divine”

    “If God laid aside one of his attributes, the immutable undergoes a mutation, the infinite suddenly stops being infinite; it would be the end of the universe. God cannot stop being God and still be God. So we can’t talk properly of God laying aside his deity to take humanity upon himself.”

    From the same book – “I think the context of Philippians 2 makes it very clear that what he emptied himself of was not his deity, not his divine attributes, but his prerogatives — his glory and his privileges. He willingly cloaked his glory under the veil of this human nature that he took upon himself. It’s not that the divine nature stops being divine in order to become human. In the Transfiguration, for example (Matthew 17:1-13), we see the invisible divine nature break through and become visible, and Jesus is transfigured before the eyes of his disciples.”

    Has Bill Johnson implied, by Christ laying aside His diety and as a man, pick it up again, that we could possibly gain “divinity”? I sure he doesn’t think that but join the dots!!!

    Oh Bill, you have created the possibilty a bit of a “Frankenstein monster” haven’t you?

  88. @Margot “Johnson teaches that during His ministry on earth Christ laid aside His divinity”

    Let’s see what the bible says, why don’t we Margot? After all, you keep saying it is our final authority (which I totally agree with by the way)

    Philippians 2:5-8 (Amp) Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [b]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [c]or retained, But stripped Himself [of all privileges and [d]rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!

    Sounds pretty clear to me. Where’s the “heresy” in Johnson’s claim? I can see where there can be some “wiggle room” in interpretation, but heresy? Sounds like slander to me Margot

  89. Ok, as I posted my reply, you posted your next piece of “evidence” against Johnson. As I said above, you can certainly take from the text at face value that Jesus laid down his divinity. You can equally say, as Sproul said, that He laid aside his glory and privileges. Both essentially can be right, but the fact is, regardless of either, He became a man and by His human blood He gave mankind His salvation. Why is what Johnson teaching heresy? It’s interpretation differences, nothing more. It’s not a game changer, and doesn’t affect our salvation, why make such a big deal about it?

  90. “Jesus was (and is) God. Eternally God. That never changed. But He chose to live with self imposed restriction while living on earth in the flesh – as a man. In doing so He defeated sin, temptation, the powers of darkness as a man. We inherit His victory – it was for us. He never sinned!”-Bill Johnson, Facebook 3/21/2011

    “Johnson is best understood as espousing not ontological kenosis (which is heresy) but functional kenosis (which is not heresy). Functional kenosis, a relative newcomer on the theological stage, is distinct from the more traditional view that Jesus veiled his divinity. Those who hold the traditional view (veiled divinity) affirm that Jesus gave us occasional glimpses of his divinity (“he who has seen me has seen the Father”) in such acts as calming the sea, turning water into wine, and other sundry miracles, signs and wonders. By these, he intended to reveal himself as the unique Son of God. Johnson’s view of functional kenosis (“self-imposed restriction”) entails that Jesus’ miracles were done only by virtue of an anointing of the Holy Spirit on His ministry, and supports Johnson’s thematic claim that the same anointing is also available to us”.

  91. Zorro says “we don’t “connect” with God”
    and we don’t experience worship? Any comments?

  92. An aside, a few years ago when TD Jakes came to speak at a C3 event, I asked my pastor at the time, were they aware that he was a modalist. Another pastor, after investigating, told our pastor he believed it was so. Jakes was a oneness Pentecostal.

    We have since seen the outpouring of concern over Elephant Room 2 with James McDonald Steven Furtick, Mark Driscoll and others inviting/accepting him as a “brother”. Even Thabiti Anyabwile refused to attend as a guest because of the still ongoing concerns with Jakes’ modalism.

    Where am I going with this? It seems the same lack of discernment over guest speakers hasn’t changed when it comes to Bill Johnson.

    Does C3 through endorsing him, now endorse Todd Bentley (as he does), John Crowder (as he does), Patricia King (as he does), the (Elijah) list crowd that Johnson endorses, goes on and on and on…….

  93. Roundhouse, I think your last few posts defending Bill Johnson etc against Margot are great.

    It’s understandable to defend against claims that people in the same stream of Christianity as you are unbiblical, heretical or not worshiping Jesus etc. Go for it!

    The Roman Catholic Church, C3, the Southern Baptists etc are all big, public organizations that willingly propagate their teachings and in one form or another, invite people to join their group. I think it’s pretty much accepted that in the internet world, people make comments, critiques and criticisms about public figures or organizations with anonymity.

    I think that’s a great idea. Probably if there were no anonymity a lot wouldn’t be said that is worth being said. That goes for discussions about political parties, economic theories etc.

    I thought your post got too personal, and was setting someone up to make comments about family members. I think you can argue your point without doing that.

    I don’t know who you are, and I prefer to not know who everyone else is either. To me it doesn’t matter.

    I don’t think Margot hates anyone.

    But in the end, churches with thousands of people and loads of money and resources shouldn’t be worried about theological criticism from a lady on a blog.

  94. @ SM – from Bill Johnson’s “When Heaven Invades Earth”

    “Those who feel safe because of their intellectual grasp of Scriptures enjoy a false sense of security. None of us has a full grasp of Scripture, but we all have the Holy Spirit. He is our common denominator who will always lead us into truth. But to follow Him, we must be willing to follow off the map—to go beyond what we know.” (p76)

    Does he demonstrate a high view of scripture here? I would say definitely not.

    So we cannot know the scriptures but we can know the Holy Spirit by some other methodology? Subjective experiences at the expense of sola scriptura? That same sola scriptura inspired by the Holy Spirit?

    “But in reality, the Bible is a closed book. Anything I get from the Word without God will not change my life. It is closed to insure that I remain dependent on the Holy Spirit.” (p93)

    No wonder people have become so deceived by these teachings. Put aside your God-given intelligence and listen to this “gem”…

    “Reaction to error usually produces error”(p51)

    To quote another reviewer of this book, what would Johnson say about Paul writing Colossians, Galatians and other epistles to correct error? But as he says, he doesn’t read other books that oppose his views of “revivalism”.

    Reading, dare I say, a scholarly critique on this topic, it’s this very tactic that Johnson uses, i.e. rejecting scholarly study, that takes away the only means (the Bible) people have to test Johnson against the Word!

  95. I missed the moderated comments. I didn’t realise Greg had moderating status on this thread, which I posted, but I’ll have to go with his judgement.

    I generally take the view that we’re adults and we can moderate each other with counter comments provided they don’t get overly personal or offensive. Otherwise, as people with posting rights, we could moderate according to our own prejudices, which can wreck a thread’s continuity and change the discussion.

    I welcome other commenters into the debate, and think we should give them time, as we did with Zorro, to settle into the way things go.
    __________________________________

    I think the judgement by association being made by Margot is fraught with danger, and, in some ways, illusory. I have avoided a discussion over Bill Johnson or Hillsong because I don’t think they are relevant to what happened to the people in the video.

    However, now that Margot has her opening, we should realise that not everyone agrees with her that Bethel is bad, or Hillsong evil. In fact the T D Jakes accusations have been dealt with countless times, and he has made statements which indicate a change. Attacking Steven Furtik, who is a dynamic young minister, by some loose association with T D Jakes, who has publicly declared he believes in the Trinity is not helpful.

    But, here we go, we have to have the same debate again. Why? Because some young people raised their hands and praised the Lord for 15 minutes at a concert where the worship leaders had an association with something Margot doesn’t like.

    There are different streams in the Body of Christ, and that seems to be manageable to God. None of them has it completely together, but not all are wrong either.

    But youth worshipping God. Let them. It’s healthy.

  96. @ Steve – please moderate your comments.

    I mentioned Furtick as part of a group at ER2, I did not “attack” anyone in that comment.

    I did however express concerns, yet to be answered, about what really amounts to C3 endorsing those who endorse aberrant ministries.

    Am I to assume then, that the silence here, is endorsement of Todd Bentley, Patricia King, Rick Joyner and the many others, endorsed by BJ, on the truly bizarre Elijah List?

    Would C3 have Patricia King as a speaker? I’m sure they wouldn’t. Todd Bentley? Of course not!

    Bill Johnson would and does. But we can’t question, we can’t enquire about the discernment behind the invitation to speak at Presence 2013? Being a parent in this situation is very difficult, being a grandparent even sadder.

  97. Steve, I think Greg was referring to what he said after

    “So let’s analyse your so called worship event.”

  98. Your point is what, Margot? In connection with youth worshipping God in Chicago, I mean. What on earth does Patricia King have to do with anything? Or Todd Bentley? Or C3 for that matter?

    SM,
    The comment following the one I put up at 9.48pm addresses Greg’s analysis, which was off the wall.

  99. @ Steve – my comments are more directed to Peter than anyone else.

    @ Peter – your quote about Bill Johnson had a little more underneath 🙂 It continues…

    “That we find it appropriate to revise our assessment is not to say that we have no serious problems with Johnson’s teachings, which we continue to view as aberrant. Many people have noted the close parallels between his teachings and Hagin-style Word of Faith doctrine, including its notorious error that Jesus had to be born again. A more immediate problem for us is Johnson’s continual emphasis on “greater things.”

    Obviously an in-depth article… It includes my “scholarly” reading and assisted in clarifying my comments. 🙂

  100. Margot, I haven’t looked much into the doctrine of Bill Johnson, John Crowder and Todd Bentley.

    They just seemed too ridiculous to me. Tunnels of fire and feathers and diamonds? To me it’s not demonic – it’s just silly. I think that if next week they talked about the Speedy Gonzales anointing you’d probably see plenty of people running around saying Arriba Arriba Andale. Which would make people laugh …and laugh and laugh…etc etc etc.

    Greg, your points were valid. Except that I’m sure there were lots of people genuinely praising and praying.

    But here’s the thing. I could go to a Catholic church tomorrow and pray. And I could go to a Benny Hinn crusade the next day and enjoy singing with thousands of other Christians – even thought I don’t think that highly of Benny.

    I have a friend who is really into IHOP, and another that is into “soaking”. Sorry, but whatever anyone says, I know them to be Godly men who love God, read the Word, pray and are doing what they know to serve God. So, they, at least are not worshiping another Jesus.

  101. @Roundhouse,

    “How do you know? I’m sure that Phil Pringle and Bill Johnson say the same thing about themselves. How do you know they aren’t right and you’re wrong?”

    I’m sure they do say that.

    However, as I already pointed out, there are two sources of revelation: the Bible and the Holy Spirit, and between those, anyone can know the truth who wants to. The problem is that neither Phil Pringle nor Bill Johnson care to know the truth. If someone loves God they will love truth, and they will know the truth. Conversely, those who do not love God do not love truth, and therefore they do not know the truth.

    Those who do not love God set their affections on something else: they are idolaters. We know from the Bible that idolaters cling assiduously to the object of their desire and stoutly defend the rightness of their cause. It’s only natural that the rebellious false teachers of today should follow in the footsteps of those who have gone before as they stagger through a barren spiritual wasteland entirely of their own making.

  102. Margot “your quote about Bill Johnson had a little more underneath” yes but irrelevant to your question – “Johnson teaches that during His ministry on earth Christ laid aside His divinity”

  103. @Zorro

    “The problem is that neither Phil Pringle nor Bill Johnson care to know the truth. ”

    And you know that how? Are you psychic? Did the Holy Spirit tell you? Did they tell you?

    “those who do not love God do not love truth, and therefore they do not know the truth.”

    So, without knowing these men personally, without ever having spoken to them or asking them whether they love God or not, you have decided in all of your infinite wisdom, that they don’t. You see, it’s statements like this that makes arguments like yours so spurious. You ascribe something to someone you don’t know with only your own prejudices and interpretation of scripture as evidence, and then go online and slander them.

    “We know from the Bible that idolaters cling assiduously to the object of their desire and stoutly defend the rightness of their cause.”

    You stoutly defend the rightness of your cause. Does that make you an idolator then?

  104. @Peter,

    ‘Zorro says “we don’t “connect” with God”
    and we don’t experience worship? Any comments?’

    Yep:

    1) I assume that you do personally “connect” with God. So if ever it seems like He’s a little distant, what do you do? Call Enzed, perhaps?

    2) I didn’t say that we don’t experience worship, I said that worship is not an experience. Two entirely different things. (What is it with the comprehension skills of pentecostal apologists?)

  105. Well, you have to look at the text:

    Philippians 2
    5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
    6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
    7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

    Kenoo, for ‘reputation’, basically means ‘to make void or of no effect, to deprive of force, to cause a thing to be empty’.

    He emptied himself and made himself of no reputation.

    It doesn’t say that he was not God, but that he emptied himself. In fact, only God could do that. He came in the likeness of man. Again, only God could do that. he took on the form of a man.

    I don’t think you can liken ‘laying aside’ to removing utterly. I can lay aside my authority as a father and be friend to my son, but I never cease to be a father or he my son.

    Or a better illustration would be if we played on opposite sides in a football game I would lay aside my seniority and authority as a father and we would compete on an equal playing field, but I would still be a father and he a son.

    Clearly Jesus had to fulfil all righteousness as a man, not as God. In the form of man, then, he was baptised in water and filled with the Holy Ghost.

    It was the Holy Ghost, who is God, who empowered the Son of Man to perform miracles. But Jesus never stopped being the Son of God. The very demons who trembled declared this when they saw him.

    Luke 4
    18 “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
    19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.”

    Jesus was anointed by God the Spirit to be empowered as a man for certain supernatural abilities which can only come from deity.

    This is clearly the meaning being expressed.

    I feel we are in danger of allowing semantics to interfere with doctrine.

  106. Zorro,
    What is it with the comprehension skills of pentecostal apologists?

    You’re not seeing the big picture, Zorro. It’s actually you ability to relate your point which is the problem. You should stick to jingles.

    How connected do you want to be?

    John 15
    4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
    5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
    6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
    7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
    8 “By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
    9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.

  107. “And you know that how?”

    You’re not listening, are you? I’ll say it for a third time:

    “There are two sources of revelation: the Bible and the Holy Spirit.”

    Read that, slowly and carefully, two or three times. Done that? Good, now you understand how I know. It’s not rocket science.

    “So, without knowing these men personally, without ever having spoken to them or asking them whether they love God or not, you have decided in all of your infinite wisdom, that they don’t.”

    I don’t need to know them and I don’t need to ask them.

    “You see, it’s statements like this that makes arguments like yours so spurious.”

    No, statements like that allow you to deduce that I am both Biblically literate and spiritually discerning.

    “You […] go online and slander them.”

    It’s not slander if it’s true. And it is most certainly true.

  108. @Zorro

    “There are two sources of revelation: the Bible and the Holy Spirit.”

    That’s right, but you don’t answer my question. How do you know what they are thinking?

    “No, statements like that allow you to deduce that I am both Biblically literate and spiritually discerning.”

    A statement like that makes me think that you have an extremely high opinion of yourself. If you were either of these things then I truly believe you would never make the statements you make here.

    “It’s not slander if it’s true. And it is most certainly true.”

    Again I ask, you know this how? You haven’t offered even the slightest bit of evidence to support your statements, only bluster and pomposity. If you are unable to answer the question then say so. There is nothing wrong with being wrong. Otherwise I will simply assume that you have no answer and are making your accusations up. In other words, according to the definition, you are engaging in slander

  109. Zorro certainly engages in slander.

    His comments often have some truth to them, some even theologically correct, but he tends to embellish them with unlikely generalisms about people he clearly knows nothing about, coupled with accusations which, by their very nature and substance, reveal his utter ignorance.

    Secondly, because he generalises, there is little to specifically discuss with him, and when there is, and you challenge his ideas, if he thinks he’ll be found out, he’ll either change the subject, or launch into an episode of ad hominem vitriol.

    That is why I likened him to a JW at the beginning. Not because I thought he actually was, but because his tactics bear such a resemblance to theirs.

  110. An example of one of his generalisms which says nothing:

    Roundhouse: “And you know that how?”

    Zorro: You’re not listening, are you? I’ll say it for a third time:
    “There are two sources of revelation: the Bible and the Holy Spirit.”
    Read that, slowly and carefully, two or three times. Done that? Good, now you understand how I know. It’s not rocket science.

    Yes, well, now we all know how! Don’t we? Let’s see…

    There are two sources of revelation, being the Word and the Spirit. OK, that’s reasonably sound doctrine, and we understand the basis behind it.

    So we read that slowly and carefully a few times, as suggested, and we still come to the same conclusion that that is acceptably sound.

    But now we apparently understand from this how Zorro knows something is not slander but fact.

    Exactly how we are not told.

    The only conclusion we can come to is that Zorro has no actual evidence but he totally believes either the Word or the Spirit has told him it is fact, and, therefore, because he is such an outstanding holy man, highly qualified in corporate increase, who has been told he could write jingles and comedy sketches and make a living from them as well as hear from God what no one else apparently does, we have to accept what he says and if we don’t we’re all dense.

    Or something.

    I dunno. I may be old fashioned and a stick in the mud, but I still prefer to hear the actual reasons for an accusation, and I like to see the assembled facts so I can measure them against truth and reason. Maybe I just need things spelled out.

  111. Oh, by the way Steve, I absolutely love the video you posted. I cried when I watched it. To see so many young people, who society tells should be getting plastered, smoking pot and sleeping with everything that moves, worshiping the King of Kings is incredible. The reason why all of these people on here are criticising is because they’ve never been there. And, before Margot pipes in and says “Oh, I have been there, but I got better”, it is obvious that she never really did, otherwise she too would have broken down in tears instead of using the video as a springboard to pour hate upon Bethel

  112. @ Roundhouse – Really? How discerning of you? Or was I simply discerning enough not caught up in the “moment”?

    By the way, do you actually know me?

    Apart from the tears that come from joy, laughter and sometimes sorrow in my family life, I usually shed my tears over the brokenness that comes from hearing God’s Word proclaimed, bringing healing to a heart convicted by sin and then restored by His daily loving kindness towards me.

    But what would I know? Having left C3 apparently makes one spiritually dead – certainly shunned. The Amish aren’t the only ones who practice that method of dealing with those who break away.

    We keep running into individuals/couples who have left. What’s really sad is the lack of follow-up to find out why they left. These people are lost in the cracks. Perhaps there should be an organic support group for those “broken by the church”?

  113. @Margot

    “By the way, do you actually know me?”

    No I don’t, but I know people like you. You get hurt at a church for some reason, leave, go somewhere else that does things differently, decide that the new way is far better and much more Godly and therefore you obviously had been conned at the last place. And because you can never be the one in the wrong, obviously the last place “hypnotized” you with drums, lights and syncopated rhythms and forced you to “follow the crowd” in worship. You had nothing to do with it of course. Because, obviously you had no control over it. And then, because of your “experiences”, everyone who is still in the last place is obviously hypnotized or under a spell and can’t think for themselves. But thankfully you can be their saviour and pull them out of that place because you just know that they have no control over themselves and need to be rescued from their evil clutches.

  114. Steve “I feel we are in danger of allowing semantics to interfere with doctrine”

    My point to Zorro, however he doesn’t seem to follow the conversation nor see the bigger picture – each response just further exposes his ignorance.

    All the best Steve …I commend you for your patience, and value your insightful contributions.

  115. @ Roundhouse – we didn’t get “hurt at a church” (C3).

    We invested 22 years of time and tithes, engaged in fellowship, got involved in serving in various ways. We were not unhappy until, for whatever reason in His sovereign purpose, the Lord decided to open our (unwilling) eyes

    That same Holy Spirit we all receive at conversion, was doing quite a number on us, totally unfair I thought at the time.

    I have said a few times over the years on this blog, that ‘we were dragged kicking and screaming” so to speak, out of C3.

    So YOU say “you can never be in the wrong” – really? So we didn’t go to pastors, didn’t think perhaps we had a problem and ask for help? Really?

    Didn’t do everything biblically required when we had concerns? Didn’t go to three pastors (final one Ps. Phil) privately and biblically?

    We can’t pull anyone out of churches but God certainly can. And does……

    All I’m seeing from you, is an uncaring attitude towards those who do have true concerns because they love the Lord and His church as much as you claim to do.

  116. I have noticed a pattern with Steve, especially if new “bloggers” arrive on the scene.

    He does like to set up an impression (of me) to somehow discredit my opinion and see me as pitted by most of the others blogging here. e.g.

    “I think the judgement by association being made by Margot is fraught with danger, and, in some ways, illusory. I have avoided a discussion over Bill Johnson or Hillsong because I don’t think they are relevant to what happened to the people in the video.”

    “However, now that Margot has her opening, we should realise that not everyone agrees with her that Bethel is bad, or Hillsong evil. In fact the T D Jakes accusations have been dealt with countless times, and he has made statements which indicate a change. Attacking Steven Furtik, who is a dynamic young minister, by some loose association with T D Jakes, who has publicly declared he believes in the Trinity is not helpful.”

    Fine – however I believe I’ve may have said in the past that Steve is to C3/Pentecostalism, as Richard Abanes is to Rick Warren/Saddleback ? 🙂

    YET, strangely enough Steve and I agree on so many levels and find ourselves often pitted against others blogging here.

    It’s an interesting realm, internet blogging and Christians.

  117. “[…] Steven Furtik, […] is a dynamic young minister”.

    He’s a complete and utter moron who is chock full of his own importance (it’s a common problem in the U.S.).

    There’s a very apt Australian term for people like him; it rhymes with “banker”.

  118. @Margot

    “All I’m seeing from you, is an uncaring attitude towards those who do have true concerns because they love the Lord and His church as much as you claim to do.”

    Oh, I do care. But it helps no one to then come online and dump their “concerns” with such outright slander. It makes you (I use “you in a corporate sense here) seem bitter and slimy, and doesn’t make a lick of difference to a) the people under that leader, and b) the leader himself. As I said in an earlier post, if his works are ungodly, then let God sort it out. God doesn’t need you to do His job for Him. He’s big enough to do it Himself. The biblical thing to do in these situations is to bless that person instead of cursing them, but of course, because you are such an awesome biblical scholar, you already knew that

  119. @Zorro

    “There’s a very apt Australian term for people like him; it rhymes with “banker””

    Tanker? Thanker?

    Anyway, nice language. I can see that the Holy Spirit certainly is at work within you! What’s that scripture, from out of the heart the mouth speaks? Think on that my friend

  120. @Margot, I forgot to add this at the end of my last sentence in my post above 😉

  121. @ Roundhouse – finally we agree on something. God is sorting it out.

    And thanks for the backhand “compliment”, 🙂 – unfortunately can’t accept it, no PhD (unless you count the C3 diploma for full-time bible college)

    Just praying that those we love continue to trust and have confidence in the sufficiency of scripture, and not add anything to it.

  122. @Margot

    “finally we agree on something. God is sorting it out.”

    So I trust then that you will no longer come on here and criticise C3, Bethel and Hillsong etc?

  123. @Roundhouse,

    “What’s that scripture, from out of the heart the mouth speaks?”

    That’s very true. What does Phil Pringle talk about?

    “The Bible was written by wealthy men”.

    “God wants you to be rich”.

    “Sow a money seed to grow a money tree”.

    “You are obliged to tithe” (which is a bare-faced lie).

    “Jesus died so that you could be wealthy”.

    “Jesus rose from the dead so that you could be wealthy”.

    It’s clear what Phil has set his heart on – and it’s not God. He is an idolater – he worships money. Blind Freddy could understand that.

    As the fact that you don’t know about Phil’s “PhD”, you need to do some research. You don’t want to be found springing to the defence of someone who lies about their academic credentials, do you?

  124. Well, there’s always the possibility. Most certainly where Bethel/Bill Johnson are concerned. And you’re the “newbie” here, not me. 🙂

    This is a blog with many twists and turns – where were you when Steve was fighting the good fight against Marian theology?

  125. “Anyway, nice language. I can see that the Holy Spirit certainly is at work within you!”

    Wasn’t it someone at C3OF who gave a talk on “tithing” and said “It’s like when you go to the sperm bank – you should give till it hurts”.

    Wasn’t that actually the son of a long-time senior figure in the C3 movement? What do you make of that, Roundhouse? Do you think that the Holy Spirit was working in their life too?

  126. @Zorro

    “You don’t want to be found springing to the defence of someone who lies about their academic credentials, do you?”

    Where’s the lie? The onus of proof is upon you to prove he doesn’t have a PhD, not me to prove he does.

    “Wasn’t it someone at C3OF who gave a talk on “tithing” and said “It’s like when you go to the sperm bank – you should give till it hurts”.

    So which word in here is supposed to be bad language? Tithing? Give? Or is it Sperm? Because last time I checked, that’s the scientific name for a males reproductive mechanism.

    Nice try my friend, but there is a big difference between calling someone vile names, as you have done, and a preacher mentioning the “S” word.

  127. @Margot

    “This is a blog with many twists and turns”

    I am beginning to realize that. I am looking forward to spending time here reading past posts. I will check out Steve’s stuff on Marian theology too. I like what he writes.

  128. Since the issue of language has been raised, is it appropriate for senior pastor’s wives to use the word “c..p” (more than once) while “preaching” a session at Presence 2012?

    Or do they get “the get out of jail free” card……

  129. “Where’s the lie? The onus of proof is upon you to prove he doesn’t have a PhD, not me to prove he does.”

    Not so. If Phil has a PhD, why is it that no refers to him as “Doctor” any more?

    Does he still sell Phil Pringle splat pens for $550.00? Do you think that Paul flogged “Apostle Paul Quills” as a nice little earner on the side?

    And I notice that you are ignoring the elephant in the room. Why does Phil talk about money all the time? Why the obsession? Should I assume that your silence is that of someone who is embarrassed by his inability to answer such questions? It is as clear as day that Phil has a very big problem – and there’s no way you can rationalise it, is there?

  130. “So which word in here is supposed to be bad language?”

    So you know everything about bad language, but absolutely nothing about bad taste. How very pentecostal you are.

  131. @Margot

    “is it appropriate for senior pastor’s wives to use the word “c..p” (more than once) while “preaching” a session at Presence 2012?”

    Can’t say. I do know that Paul uses the Greek equivalent of the word “s__t” in Philippians 3:8, so maybe it is

    Thanks for the link by the way. I’ll check it out

  132. @Zorro

    “Why does Phil talk about money all the time? Why the obsession?

    I’m not in the C3 movement, so I don’t know whether he speaks on money all the time or not. When you think about it though (you should try that some time, by the way) the term “all the time” is actually quite ambiguous. Are you saying that EVERY message he ever gives is on finances? I’d hazard a guess and say no. Are a disproportionate number of his messages about finances? Once again I’d hazard a guess and say no. Do his opponents and detractors fixate on his messages that ARE about finances and use them as the basis to make wild claims that ALL his messages are about finances? I’d say a resounding yes on this one.

    “Should I assume that your silence is that of someone who is embarrassed by his inability to answer such questions? It is as clear as day that Phil has a very big problem – and there’s no way you can rationalise it, is there? ”

    What silence? This is the first time a question about this has been asked of me here. I think the “rationalizing” needs to come from you and not me Zorro.

    By the way, what is a splat pen?

  133. @Zorro

    “So you know everything about bad language, but absolutely nothing about bad taste.”

    The example by that young preacher is not one I Would ever use if I were to preach, but if you really want to talk about “bad taste”, what about this – “this is nice feel good stuff, but it has as much to do with worshipping God as when I go to the toilet! ” courtesy of our friend Greg.

  134. Wayne Grudem on offensive language (and skubalon 🙂 )

    Note: The following is an email from Wayne Grudem to John Piper, posted with permission. In it, Grudem responds to Piper’s explanation of why he sometimes uses offensive language.
    John,

    I saw on Justin’s blog a link to your comments on your use of “strong language” at Passion07. I’m glad you said that now you regret saying it and thankful that you were willing to say this.

    I’m not sure if this will be helpful but I’ve thought of such language as a question of having a reputation for “cleanness” in our speech, as in the rest of life, out of concern for how that reflects on the gospel and on God whom we represent.

    A number of different words can denote the same thing but have different connotations, some of them recognized as “unclean” or “offensive” by the culture.

    Examples:

    urination: taking a leak, pee, “p—”
    defication: poop, “cr–“, “sh–”
    sexual intercourse: sleeping with someone, “f—”
    rear end: backside, “a–”
    Speaking of these things and using different words for them is not contrary to any biblical command (and so it is different from taking the Lord’s name in vain, which is explicitly forbidden), but we are also commanded to maintain a reputation for cleanliness:

    ESV Titus 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.
    ESV Ephesians 5:4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
    ESV Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
    ESV Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
    Using the words commonly thought to be offensive in the culture seems to me to be sort of the verbal equivalent of not wearing deodorant and having body odor, or of going around with spilled food on our shirts all the time. Someone might argue that not wearing deodorant or wearing dirty clothes are not morally wrong things in themselves, but my response is that they do give needless offense and cause others to think of us as somewhat impure or unclean. So, I think, does using words commonly thought to be “obscene” or “offensive” or “vulgar” in the culture generally. Plus it encourages others to act in the same way. So in that way it brings reproach on the church and the gospel.

    I remember a long time ago you mentioned to me that when you were in jail for Operation Rescue you listened at night to the talk of prisoners in the cell block, and how their talk was just filled with vulgar bathroom language and sex language. It struck me at the time how a person’s purity or impurity of speech is often an indicator of purity or impurity of heart. (ESV Matthew 12:34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.)

    As for your comment about finding language “as offensive as that” in the Bible, I’m not sure. It’s difficult for us to be sure about the connotations of words in an ancient culture. When I was in seminary I remember another student arguing that Paul’s use of skubalon in Philippians 3:8 (For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ) was just like using “sh–” today. I thought that sounded right. But later I found that the word has a broader range of meaning and I’m not sure it had the offensive overtones that “sh–” does today in English. (BDAG: useless or undesirable material that is subject to disposal, refuse, garbage [in var. senses, ‘excrement, manure, garbage, kitchen scraps’]). In translating the ESV we rendered that term in Phil. 3:8 as “rubbish,” not as a more offensive word. I think that was a good decision.

    All this is to say I think you were right to express regret for saying what you said.

    Again, out of respect for your time, please don’t feel that any response is necessary. I am so thankful for you and for your faithfulness to the Lord.

    Wayne

  135. Roundhouse “Do his opponents and detractors fixate on his messages that ARE about finances and use them as the basis to make wild claims that ALL his messages are about finances? I’d say a resounding yes on this one”

    Love it! Right on the money so to speak 🙂

    BTW – he does hold a PhD …I was at the ceremony.

  136. @Margot

    Thanks for that. Interesting information.

    The Greek for the word “rubbish” used in that passage is skybalon, which means any refuse, as the excrement of animals, offscourings, rubbish, dregs. So skybalon could mean “rubbish”, but it comes from the root words eis, meaning into, unto, to, towards, for, among, kyōn, meaning a dog, and ballō, meaning to cast, scatter or throw. I think it’s pretty clear that Paul is referring to “dog s___t” in this scripture, don’t you?

  137. @Margot

    “Bold move – pitting yourself against Wayne Grudem!”

    Is it? Who’s he?

  138. Ok, just googled him. Impressive. I guess it just comes down to him possibly wanting the text to seem less confronting, according to his Calvinist views

  139. Well, do a little more research and you will find that he is Charismatic (as is John Piper).

    It must be a small Christian circle you revolve in, to have not heard of Wayne Grudem?

    Bet you know a lot about Bill Johnson! Certainly not in Grudem’s league. 🙂

  140. @Margot

    “Well, do a little more research and you will find that he is Charismatic (as is John Piper).”

    I also admit to not knowing much about John Piper. If he and Wayne Grudem believe, teach and operate in the gifts of the spirit, that’s awesome. However, that wasn’t my point in my previous post. I was saying that my understanding of the Calvinist is that due to the fact that they appear to be so sin conscious, and in my opinion, quite religious in their thinking, that the thought of saying anything or reading anything in the bible that could be construed as being “vulgar” would somehow make the bible seem less “holy”, and we can’t have that in the inerrant word. Anything in the bible that appears vulgar must be explained away as meaning something else so as to not cause “offence”.

  141. @Peter,

    “BTW – he does hold a PhD …I was at the ceremony.”

    So if there was a ceremony, there must be a PhD, right?

    That would be the same reasoning as “If there is lots of loud noise, smoke, mirrors, lights, shouting and waving of arms, it must be worship” – and just as the reasoning is erroneous in the latter case, so it is also erroneous in the former.

    The truth is that Phil doesn’t have a PhD: what he has is a fake doctorate that came from an unaccredited institution in Florida (that is to say, his “PhD” came from a diploma mill). It’s easy to tell it’s a fake from the simple fact that no one refers to him as a “Doctor” any more. Or hadn’t you noticed that?

    You know what Jesus had to say about people who crave titles, don’t you? Speaking of the Pharisees, he said:

    “Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honour at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’”

    “they love to […] have men call them ‘Rabbi’.”

    Or perhaps they like to be called “Doctor”, even when they are no such thing. Did you know that Phil has also allowed himself to be referred to as an “archbishop” and as a “pope”.

    Do you think that Phil is an “archbishop”, Peter? Do you think he’s a “pope”?

  142. @Roundhouse,

    “The example by that young preacher is not one I Would ever use if I were to preach […]”.

    Ah, we have a point of agreement. Who knows, perhaps a rapprochement is possible.

  143. @Zorro

    Ok, so, I’ve done a simple google search about the university that Phil Pringle got his “fake” doctorate from. Would it surprise you to know that it is in fact a legitimate on-line university.

    Here’s the info on the university from their website:

    NCIU AUTHORIZATION

    New Covenant International, Inc. is a Florida incorporated non-profit educational organization,that has established a private nonpublic post-secondary institution for the purpose of providing educational programs to prepare students for religious vocations as ministers, professionals, or laypersons in the categories of Bible and Theology, Christian Ministry, Christian Mission and Intercultural Studies, Christian Pastoral Counseling, Church Leadership, Religious Education, Administration, Music, Fine Arts, Media Communications, or Social Work.

    Florida Statute 2009 TITLE XLVIII Chapter 1005.04 and 1005.06(1)(f) F.S. enables religious educational institutions and other faith-based organizations to operate by sworn affidavit with exemption from State government control and determination of curriculum. NCI University & Theological Seminary (NCIU) is fully compliant in all statutory requirements.

    NCIU RECOGNITION

    ► NCIU is listed with the US Government National Center for Educational Statistics (NCES) – http://surveys.nces.ed.gov/ipeds/ under the IPEDS Division (the Integrated Post-Secondary Education Data System).

    ► NCIU is a Certified Member of CPCA – the Council of Private Colleges of America, USA [authorized pursuant §246-041(1)(f)F.S.]

    ► NCIU is also a Certified Member of FCPC – the Florida Council of Private Colleges Inc., USA [authorized pursuant §246-041(1)(f)F.S.]

    In addition, here’s a copy and paste from the Florida State Education info website about New Covenant International University that proves that it does in fact award doctorates,

    Total Students: 30
    Students Enrolled Full-time: 12
    Open To The Public: Yes
    Level Of Institution: Four or more years
    Control Of Institution: Private not-for-profit
    Highest Level Offered: Doctor’s degree
    Undergraduate Offering: Undergraduate degree or certificate offering
    Graduate Offering: Graduate degree or certificate offering
    First Professional Offering: No first-professional offering
    Highest Degree Offered: Doctoral
    Degree Granting Status: Degree-granting
    Institution Grants a Medical Degree: No
    Carnegie Classification: {Item not available}

    Hope this helps clear up any confusion as to the legitimacy of Phil Pringle’s doctorate

  144. Oh, and I googled Dr Phil Pringle too. Found heaps of examples where he is still referred to as Dr.

    Look, I don’t know much about Phil Pringle or C3, but I definitely think it’s unfair the amount of slime heaped upon him here.

  145. @ Roundhose I will check out Steve’s stuff on Marian theology too. I like what he writes,

    Yay. Another Dan Brown fan. Steve is to Catholics what Zorro is to Pentecostals. Full of generalisations and falsehoods.

    Yo may as well go watch Angels and Demons.

    For all the stuff on this thread, there is one thing that keeps you in union. You all hate Catholics.

  146. @Bones, from what I have read here on this blog you hate everyone except gays!

  147. @Bones,

    “For all the stuff on this thread, there is one thing that keeps you in union. You all hate Catholics.”

    Bones, great to see that you are back, my feisty Freudian friend!

    @Roundhouse,

    “Bones, from what I have read here on this blog you hate everyone except gays!”

    It’s queer that you should mention that.

  148. Bones,
    Yay. Another Dan Brown fan. Steve is to Catholics what Zorro is to Pentecostals. Full of generalisations and falsehoods.

    Can you name one? You haven’t managed to so far.

    I have quoted popes. It’s their dogma, not mine.

  149. However, in the spirit of cleverness and doctrinal sleight of hand, the various papal agencies eventually came up with a set of beliefs, based, not on scripture, but on a philosophically pragmatic, humanly conceived desire to place Mary on a par with similar female goddess figures represented in the idolatry of most pagan cultures, and culminating in a declaration of her immaculacy for all time, since Popes are, by definition, infallible, and therefore, once a papal decree is issued it is, apparently, gospel, although whose gospel is up for scrutiny.

  150. @ Roundhose.

    So another nutbag joins Steve’s enthralling throng.

    I can sum up Steve’s Catholic argument and prove using his logic that all Pentecostals are pagan.

    Steve’s logic:

    Pagan’s use candles, Catholics use candles therefore Catholics are pagan.

    Let’s try that logic.

    Pagans starts with p, Pentecostals starts with p therefore Pentecostals are pagan.

    I have reliable sources eg Zorro and a good friend called Chirpy who agree with me and a 150 year old book told me so. Don’t try to convince me with arguments from history because they simply don’t exist or are written by pagans themselves.

  151. Oh and Steve didn’t know that Constantine didn’t speak English in his lamentable ‘I hate Easter’ rant. Can’t wait for the Christmas edition.

  152. I think in the spirit of fairness, we should all refer to each other as Doctor. I have bestowed upon you all an honorary doctorate on the art of blogging.

    Congratulations.

  153. Well Roundhose if you can’t stand the heat….

    I may have hurt your feeings by calling you a nutbag which you are.

    I’m sorry I’m not as tolerant as Steve who has condemned nearly the whole history of Christianity inclding the martyrs as being pagan and members of the Whore of Babylon.

    How intoerant of me.

  154. @ Roundhouse – welcome to the unique world of “Signposting” .

    We all get together for drinks to celebrate Kwanzaa, Christmas, Hanukkah and Ramadan…..

  155. @Margot

    “We all get together for drinks to celebrate Kwanzaa, Christmas, Hanukkah and Ramadan…..”

    The summer solstice?

    @Bones

    Don’t be a skybalon (see my post a few hours ago)

  156. Just on worship. Proof that Pentecostal worship services are pagan.

    DRUM – TOPHET
    The drum is a percussion instrument, known in various forms and played throughout the world and throughout history. Essentially a drum is a frame over which one or more membranes or skins are stretched. The frame is usually cylindrical or conical, but it comes in many other shapes. It was known since the beginning of time, nevertheless it is not found in the Bible as an instrument in the worship of God. However, we see plenty of it in the satanic worship with the name of Tophet, the same as Topheth; from Hebrew: toph, “a drum,” because the cries of children here sacrificed by the priests of Moloch were drowned by the noise of such an instrument. Moloch was the god of the Ammonites, portrayed as a bronze statue with a calf’s head adorned with a royal crown and seated on a throne. His arms were extended to receive the child victims sacrificed to him. Moloch was a frightening and terrible demon covered with mothers’ tears and children’s blood. When a child was sacrificed to Moloch, a fire was lit inside the statue. The priests would then beat loudly on drums & other objects so that the cries of the roasted baby would not be heard. Such was the use of the Drums.

    The large frame drums were never used in the worship of God, the nearest thing resembling a drum was the Timbrel or Tabret similar to a tambourine but these were hand held making light sounds, not fracas.

    DRUMMING UP DEMONS
    Extracts from Bible Guidelines for Music with many secular quotes; (by Terry Watkins)

    The Bible lists many kinds of instruments (Psalms 150:3-5), yet one instrument is NEVER mentioned! The drum was a very common instrument in Egypt and the lands around Israel. Did the Lord just forget to include the DRUM or is there another reason? Is it because drums are associated with voodoo, shamanism, paganism and magic rituals?

    Drums are “played to summon up magic powers” (The Illustrated Book of Signs & Symbols)… and are “used in shamanic rituals to heal people. It is believed that the shaman can communicate with the spirit world THROUGH DRUMMING.” (Musical Instruments). “Pagan dances and rituals are always accompanied by the incessant BEAT of DRUMS.” (Satan’s Music Exposed)

    Robert Palmer, contributing editor to Rolling Stone… advocate and lover of rock music, writes, in Rock & Roll An Unruly History: “Bata drums [drums used in voodoo], sacred to the Yoruba people of Nigeria and Cuba… provided a template for the inner rhythms of rock and roll… serve as conduits for spiritual energies, linking individual human consciousness with the gods… the drum rhythms that make rock and roll can ultimately be traced back to African music of a primarily spiritual or ritual nature. In a sense, rock and roll is a kind of ‘voodoo’… Drums are used in “voodoo” possession… drummers tap out their rhythm patterns like signals to the realm of the gods, inviting and enticing them to come and POSSESS their devotees.”

    Little Richard, the self-professed “architect of rock ‘n roll”, readily admits Satan’s control and influence in his life and rock music: “My true belief about Rock ‘n’ Roll – is this: “I believe this kind of music is demonic…. A lot of the BEATS in music today are taken from voodoo, from the voodoo DRUMS.” (The Life and Times of Little Richard)

    “The shaman was the original ‘long hair’, the first rock star draped in leather, dancing possessed to a rhythm banged out on a DRUM… communication with the gods was synonymous with DRUMS… the body can become the conduit for a deity… DRUMS are the catalyst for the whole process… what Westerners simplistically call ‘possession’.” (Appetite for Destruction)

    David Tame writes in The Secret Power of Music: “Today’s DRUMMER differs but little from the shaman in his incessant beating out of a rhythm, and likewise often enters into a form of trance while performing.”

    The DRUM has always been associated with paganism and the devil… When the first blacks from Africa were converted to Christianity they knew the power and evil influence of DRUMS. And the converted blacks strictly forbid the use of drums! They referred to the drums as “the Devil’s drum”. (Hole in Our Soul: The Loss of Beauty and Meaning in American Popular Music)>

    It really does look like that the one simple guideline for Christian music is: NO DRUMS!

    A PASTOR’S LAMENT (Bill Burkett)
    This would also help the pastor approach the drummer on the subject. A fine church may be losing its evangelistic effectiveness because they get people out to the meetings but then can’t keep them because the music is too loud and distracting. Brethren, it can be a trick of the enemy to keep you from growing as a church. I have recommended several people to one church in particular and when I get back with them they say, “We loved the church, and the pastor but the music was so loud we couldn’t take our friends there to get saved.” There is a propriety to the use of drums in the church. It is a background instrument and not a devil driving, ear piercing racket that overpowers every other instrument in the church orchestra. The reason it drives the devil off is because it hurts his ears. Some wise pastors have placed a glass partition around the drums. This is a great idea – just let the drummer beat his little heart out inside his cubicle. Enough sound will escape to give a proper cadence to the music being sung and the drummer can pound his heart out in his own little percussion cubicle.

    The fact is that loud drums can impair the hearing. Sound above what God made the ears to be used for can be as harmful as anything else abused beyond purpose. Worship is the purpose of music in the church. Everything, including the songs we sing in church is directed to God. More and more our music is to please us rather than God. From the time of the tabernacle we learn that the house of God is where we come to worship the Lord under His conditions and not for having a religious jam session. Musical entertainment has no place in the house of God. At one time this was the feeling of Christians toward music in the church.

    But in recent years there has been such a strong and fast shift toward loud music that has become entertainment completely abandoning the holy concept of music as accompaniment of instruments joined to the voices of the singing worshippers. But this thinking is changing and many are now saying that music as Christian entertainment (?) is right. Many churches pull their biggest crowds with musical entertainment. Of course, the next step is any kind of cross-over entertainment is OK as long as its flavored with fundamentalist jargon. Hymnology, the singing of hymns in the church, was not introduced into the church until A.D. 350 by an early church theologian, by the name of Ambrose of Milan. Before that time singing played very little or no part in the church worship services. We have come a long way!

    http://www.albatrus.org/english/church-order/worship/drums_suitable_worship_god.htm

  157. @Bones

    “Proof that Pentecostal worship services are pagan….blah blah blah”

    And you call me a nutbag!!!!!!!!!!!!

    That’s priceless!!!!!!

  158. Yeah, I know, bullshit isn’t it. However it’s far more accurate than Steve’s conniving attacks on Catholicism and uses the EXACT same logic.

    btw worship is about God, not us.

    It’s obvious that the big band techno worship thing is about getting bums on seats. It’s no different to having Jesus centred pole dancing.

  159. Oh and how about reflecting on this:

    Hymnology, the singing of hymns in the church, was not introduced into the church until A.D. 350 by an early church theologian, by the name of Ambrose of Milan. Before that time singing played very little or no part in the church worship services. We have come a long way!

    How many peopl would go to Church if there was no music at all. If all we did was pray, wait upon the Lord, search the scriptures., fellowship with others?

  160. 2 Sam 6:5 Then David and all the house of Israel played music before the Lord on all kinds of instruments of fir wood, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on sistrums, and on cymbals.

    tambourines ‘toph’ primitive root ‘taphaph’ – to drum

    Ps 149 Praise the Lord!
    Sing to the Lord a new song,
    And His praise in the assembly of saints.
    2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;
    Let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
    3 Let them praise His name with the dance;
    Let them sing praises to Him with the timbrel (tambourine) and harp.
    4 For the Lord takes pleasure in His people;
    He will beautify the humble with salvation.
    5 Let the saints be joyful in glory;
    Let them sing aloud on their beds.
    6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,

    Ps 150 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;
    Praise Him with the lute and harp!
    4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;
    Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
    5 Praise Him with LOUD CYMBALS;
    Praise Him with clashing cymbals!
    6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
    Praise the Lord!

  161. Bones,
    However it’s far more accurate than Steve’s conniving attacks on Catholicism and uses the EXACT same logic.

    Please explain how…

    I quoted Catholic dogma in the posts. Read them for yourself. It’s their own doctrine.

    Are you saying purgatory, Mass, canonising of saints and Mary as mediatirx is Biblical or anything to do with Christ?

    Pray tell how…

  162. @Greg

    “Phil Pringle does not, I repeat NOT hold an accredited or internationally recognised PHD! Read THIS post from some time ago right here on Signposts02 that deals with it.”

    Hmmm, who do I believe, a website listing all of the legitimate Universities in Florida USA which verifies the existence of the facility where Phil Pringle earned his doctorate (not to mention the website of said university showing that the uni does in fact offer doctorates), or a post on an anti-pentecostal website written by a proven Pringle hater? Such a hard choice……but I think I’ll have to go with option A. Lock it in, Eddy!

  163. Bones,
    I’m sorry I’m not as tolerant as Steve who has condemned nearly the whole history of Christianity inclding the martyrs as being pagan and members of the Whore of Babylon.

    Really???

    You’re either a liar or you need to get a grip on yourself.

    Your interpretation of what I posted on RC dogma is so wrong it is pathetic, and lowers my impression of your ability to see reason.

    You have turned into a bitter, twisted apologist for Mary worship, saint adoration, idolatry and error.

    I don’t mind you disagreeing with my perspective and acting like a Catholic son of the pope, but please don’t tell lies about what I believe. That is wrong.

    Nowhere have I said any such thing about martyrs. It is offensive and totally unsustainable.

    Clearly you would have been in the Catholic crowds which tried to kill Wesley in his day, probably holding a pitchfork and a torch.

  164. @Dr Roundhouse,

    “Bones, you seem to be quite an abusive person.”

    That’s *Doctor* Bones to you.

  165. Only one here that is bitter and twisted is your hatred of Catholics which is still in the mire of Medieval Europe. You should go join the Orangemen in Northern Ireland, they’d love your propaganda there.

  166. Wow, away for a short while come back and read the posts and it’s hard to keep up with it all. Music in church, drums, Pringle’s PHd, money, divinity of Jesus, Marian worship, Christian pole dancing, bad language….where to start?

    I’ll start here, with a piece of advice for Roundhouse! lol

    Welcome! I think it’s great that you care about what you feel are attacks on ministries you appreciate enough to come here defend them. Good for you. It gets pretty rough here. And some of the people here – okay, everyone except for me are unusually clever and well-read. While defending your position you might just learn some things – esp about church history and sections of the Church you may not be familiar with. That will either make you change your mind, or make you stronger in your position, but at least you’ll appreciate church history and the wider body of Christ more.

    Just one thing. It’s easy to get steamed up and think about what people say here too much. So don’t let this blog take over your life!

  167. @ Dr. SM – I’m a bit bewildered by Roundhouse and his views – just realised he admitted that he doesn’t attend C3 and states this ……

    “Why does Phil talk about money all the time? Why the obsession?

    ‘I’m not in the C3 movement, so I don’t know whether he speaks on money all the time or not. When you think about it though (you should try that some time, by the way) the term “all the time” is actually quite ambiguous. Are you saying that EVERY message he ever gives is on finances? I’d hazard a guess and say no. Are a disproportionate number of his messages about finances? Once again I’d hazard a guess and say no. Do his opponents and detractors fixate on his messages that ARE about finances and use them as the basis to make wild claims that ALL his messages are about finances? I’d say a resounding yes on this one.”

    So unless he’s really a regular viewer or podcaster of C3 media, why are the views of those who have been members, invalid?

  168. Okay. Music in the church. From all that I have read, it seems to me that there WASN’T instrumental music in worship in the very early church. It’s good to ask why. Even in Pauls’s day, it’s interesting that there’s no mention anywhere about the use of instruments in Christian gatherings. For all the things we read about that happened or were addressed – tongues, prophecy, women praying and teaching, people falling asleep and falling out of windows, preference to people with good clothes, drunkedness at “communion”, length of women’s hair etc etc, it’s amazing that Paul never talked about music. The greeks had plenty of music in those days, and plenty of instruments. If you want to find out what instruments they used in the church of Corinth or at Alexandria. you have a hard job. I haven’t found anything.

    Having said that – I don’t think we have to do everything that the early church did. I like music. I like choirs, guitars, trumpets, keyboards – you name it.

    What I don’t like is electronics, or proud musicians becoming central or distracting from worship. But that can happen with a fancy pipe organ and a chorus of old ladies as much as it can at a new generation church. Personally, I don’t want to have a the guitarists face on large screens when I worship and I also want to be able to sing and pray without a guy sticking a camera in my face to put on a screen or the latest worship DVD. But that’s just me.
    Each to his own. It’s not sin.

  169. Pringle’s PHD? To me that’s not a biggie. There are lots of Christian Bible Colleges where you can get diploma’s, bachelor’s degrees and PhDs, relatively easily online. It’s not a crime for a church or some Christians to start a bible college and issue degrees. I know lot’s of pentecostal ministers who have masters degrees and doctorates from places like that.

    But as a person who’s spent some time in normal secular institutions, it’s obvious that it’s a lot harder to get a PhD at a formal university. So Pringle and Fred Price etc have PhDs and can call themselves doctors if they like. It’s become fairly common in the pentecostal world over the last 20 years. But, no, they didn’t study 4 years full time, then another 2 or 3 for their masters, then another 2 or 3 for their Phd like they would if they got a PhD in theology from one of the established universities. I will admit feeling a little peeved at times to find so many people with masters and Phds from online christian universities, and who do it with such ease.

    But – to me it’s not a biggie. It usually only impresses people in charismatic circles who don’t know much about academia.

    But don’t worry – people with that kind of PhD aren’t going to be able to use it to become a professor in a leading university. So I don’t think people need to get upset about it.

  170. As for marian theology and the Catholics. I recommend you to look up Catholic Answers or the Catholic Encyclopedia for the Roman Catholic defense of their doctrines and practices. You might be surprised. I think it’s better reading that than a book written by a protestant about what catholics believe.

    I don’t believe in Roman Catholic doctrine. If I did, I’d go and get baptized and become a Catholic. But, I don’t think the Pope is the anti-christ and I don’t think Catholics worship Satan. Protestants have been killed etc by Catholics throughout history, but Protestants have also killed Catholics, and killed each other. I don’t base my attitudes towards Catholics on what happened centuries ago.

    The Catholics I know (in Asia) are wonderful people who turned from other religions and now read their bibles, pray, and try to be disciples of Christ – like we all do.

  171. As for bad language – I don’t like it from ministers or in churches.
    But, language changes over time, and what to some people is just a word to other people is deeply offensive. Families vary on the words they use for body parts etc. Some people I know think “shut up” is cussing.

    I don’t like ministers using bad language and because of my upbringing i really hate women using bad language (except if it’s just for my benefit at 3 in the morning……).

    But, I’m not going to dismiss what a person is saying because they use words that I wouldn’t.

  172. @Dr SM,

    “But – to me [a fake PhD] is not a biggie. It usually only impresses people in charismatic circles who don’t know much about academia.

    But don’t worry – people with that kind of PhD aren’t going to be able to use it to become a professor in a leading university. So I don’t think people need to get upset about it.”

    There are a number of concerns that arise in the case of “ministers” who obtain fake academic qualifications:

    1) They are covetous individuals who desire to have a name for themselves: they love praise from men more than praise from God.
    2) They are vain, shallow and self-seeking.
    3) They use said “qualifications” to gain credibility in the eyes of the gullible, to whom they proceed to flog all manner of utterly worthless “resources” and from whom they they extort “tithes”.
    4) They show contempt for those they claim to pastor.
    5) They have neither integrity nor shame.

    The foregoing are indicative of serious moral deficiency – in fact, a complete absence of good (let alone Godly) character. Any one of the above should be enough to disqualify someone from Christian service in any capacity whatsoever.

  173. SM
    As for marian theology and the Catholics. I recommend you to look up Catholic Answers or the Catholic Encyclopedia for the Roman Catholic defense of their doctrines and practices. You might be surprised. I think it’s better reading that than a book written by a protestant about what catholics believe.

    I took the marian doctrine entirely from pro-Catholic sites. Nothing I quoted from in the posts was from a protestant perspective. I presented their own dogma to demonstrate their error.

    Bones has launched into a bitter, angry attack on me personally for posting their dogma. Go figure!

    He has called me terrible things for producing bona fide indisputable evidence of what they say.

    As I have already said, I deliberately refrained from using anything protestant or related to controversial books or resources which are anti-catholic in the posts.

    I produced quotes from the Vatican papers and from Catholic Answers.

    Bones’ unapologetic personal attack on me is unbelievable, actually, because I thought he was someone who was truly interested in discovering and locating truth.

    It seems to me that anything on this site which points out controversial issues with Pentecostal churches or ministers is given praise, and a real thumbs-up, but anything which indicates error in another camp is hit with the double edged sword of denialist defence or some vague or false equivalence to Pentecostalism.

  174. No you took them from Catholic sites then gave your slant to them. Which of course is to back up your whole Roman Catholic Church is Mystery Babylon crap. Do you deny you believe that? Are you ready to recant of Hislop’s garbage? Ian Paisley is an example of the type of Christian that Hislop was, rabidly anti-Catholic to the point of making up history.

    You’ve spent multiple threads ridiculing yourself. Arguing against no one really but a non-Catholic who knows your talking shit.

  175. @Dr Zorro, I didn’t use the word “fake PhD”.
    @Steve, I wasn’t meaning you, but people in general.

    I think the Catholic Encyclopedia etc are great for finding out why Catholics hold the positions they do.

  176. @Margot

    “So unless he’s really a regular viewer or podcaster of C3 media, why are the views of those who have been members, invalid?”

    I do subscribe to the C3 podcasts (although it is one of about 10 different podcasts I subscribe to), and I follow Phil Pringle on Twitter, so that’s where my experience ends.

    Your experience is valid Margot if it is untainted by criticism, bitterness or hurt. A person who has an agenda will only ever focus on the negative, and ignore the overwhelming positive, so their opinion will only highlight those things that bugs them, therefore as a credible source of impartial information they are in effect invalid.

    Try this. If you take a look at the list of podcasts from Phil on iTunes, out of the 43 messages that are listed, one is about provision. The other 42 are about other subjects. Does that look like he ONLY EVER preaches on money?

  177. @SM

    Thanks for the advice. I am feeling my way around here. I do have a tendency to be a little insensitive in some of the things I write, and I admit sometimes after I hit the Post Comment button I wonder whether I really should have written some of the things I just posted. A delete button would be nice. Anyway, there is no malice intended in anything I post, but if I think something is stupid I’ll say it.

    As a side note, I don’t want to reveal my real name, as I work in a security sensitive area and it wouldn’t be a good thing for my name to pop up if someone did a google search.

  178. ‘”@Dr Zorro, I didn’t use the word “fake PhD”.’

    Sorry SM, my apologies.

Comments are closed.