A light refreshment…

And now for something more edifying…

I think this is now a golden oldie!

I can’t say I’m personally that big on Hillsong worship. There are some extraordinarily wonderful songs and melodies alongside some that are instantly forgettable.

But at least you know they are worshipping God and it is heart-felt, from Geoff Bullock and Darlene Zschech, Russell Fragar through to the latest batch of writers and worship leaders, who have, of course, built a global presence with their praise and worship ministry. And some of their material is memorable.

Express yourself to God
The main thing, though, whatever your musical tastes, whether you find this kind of church music bland or inspiring, is to be able to express yourself in worship of our great God, and I think Hillsong, amongst others, have been consistent in encouraging people to worship, give thanks, praise, exalt and show devotion to God.

There have been many great hymn and song writers through the ages, and a few songs which will be forgotten, but, for now, it would be a good thing to allow the worship of God to be a focus.

Anti-atheist statement
I put this up because landing at this site on that last atheist parable was hurtful to all believers, so I wanted to shift it off the front page and give God first place through worship.

Better to have a time of thanksgiving.

Posted by Steve


61 thoughts on “A light refreshment…

  1. You may want to rethink your statement “at least you know they are worshipping God and it is heart-felt”. That should have been a lowercase “G” for Hill$ong do not worship the God of scripture. Their god is one that cater to self-fulfilment.

  2. Having met many members and supporters of Hillsong in various places they are impacting I would have to say that your claims have no resemblance to reality.

    Having played and been in meetings where this and many other songs were featured I would add that there were a good many people, myself included, who were, indeed, deeply engaged in worshipping God Almighty, Creator of the Universe and Sustainer of Life.

    Perhaps you need to rethink your own attitude.

  3. Beautiful song, and people sing it all over the world – not just in charismatic churches. There are some Hillsong songs that people will still be singing in 50, 100 years, and this is one of them.

    Before people start with the critical comments …… can I say that I’ve always enjoyed being with Christians who worship. I’m not a Benny Hinn fan, but it was great to be in a room with Christians from all different churches singing. (so ironically, many meetings are great in SPITE of the guest speaker).

    The problem with making a stand against things is that people tend to have to attack everything – and it’s hard to just be able to say something good at all.

    It’s just my individual quick – but I prefer being able to sing and praise etc, without wondering if a camera will lock on me and I end up on the screen or the next DVD.

    (and being the devilishly handsome man that I am, the probability is higher than you can imagine…)

  4. “Perhaps you need to rethink your own attitude.”

    First they “worship”, then they “tithe”.

    The fact that they engage in the latter hollow and fruitless exercise shows exactly which “god” it is that they are following. They are not believers, they are deceivers – and any impact they have is entirely negative.

  5. Its a great song. This is a cover-version by Hillsong though, it was written by Tim Hughes a worship leader in England.

  6. I like this song and taught it to our local Uniting Church.

    Not really sure about the line

    I’ll never know how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross.

    I thought we do know how much it cost.

  7. It’s just my individual quick – but I prefer being able to sing and praise etc, without wondering if a camera will lock on me and I end up on the screen or the next DVD.

    Man I hate that. What’s wrong with words on a plain background.

    I miss the Anglicans.

  8. “’ll never know how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross.

    I thought we do know how much it cost.”

    I don’t mind that. I’d say it’s just expressing the thought they we won’t REALLY appreciate or know it. As in God’s love and grace is too amazing to comprehend.

    I think if you go through every song and every hymn there’s probably stuff you can find fault with.

    Probably do it with the bible too…..but let’s not go there.

    Anyway, did you see that everyone? Bones teaching choruses to Uniting Churchians! Nice!

  9. Done heaps more than that, Q.

    But I wouldn’t want to bust anyone’s bubble. Quite enjoy the reputation as an unbeliever. It regularly fills me with mirth.

  10. @ steve – if the measure of true worship is great people then all religions have a shot – do you know any nice Mormons? The measure of whether they worship the God of scripture should be in what is taught – the messages the ooze from Hill$ong are not Biblical, they are man centred, man pleasers.

  11. Yeah Yeah, alright, Jason. Jolly good.

    I must have missed God with that one. I thought my Hillsong friends actually loved God and served Him well.

    Those conversations which led me to believe they were well taught on Christian matters and truly enjoyed Christian fellowship must have had some secret content I missed which obviously would tell someone as a astute as you that the Jesus they love, serve and follow is from another planet or dimension or something.

    There you go. Thanks for putting me straight on that one!

  12. Oh, I just noticed the dollar sign in the ‘s’ of Hillsong in your comment, Jason. How original and witty is that!

    ‘Ooze from Hill$ong’! Thanks, Jason. I think I get what you’re saying now.

    I guess when you go to your church you’re now able to resist offerings with the best of them. The withstand the offering message on principle crowd! Heroes!

    We don’t want that money stuff mentioned in churches, do we? Money – the root of all evil! Or was that the love of money?

    Who cares! They’re not going to get your wallet open, are they, Ja$on! Not with a crowbar.

  13. Ja$on,
    if the measure of true worship is great people then all religions have a shot – do you know any nice Mormons? The measure of whether they worship the God of scripture should be in what is taught – the messages the ooze from Hill$ong are not Biblical, they are man centred, man pleasers.

    Thoe are your words, not mine. I said the people I know from Hillsong or Hillsong influenced churches, and there are a good many in various places, are consistently worshipping God Almighty.

    I never mentioned whether they were ‘great’ people or not. I said they were worshippers, and that s a characteristic of their church, whether you like their style of music or not.

    I have met nice Mormons. I’ve talked to them about the fact they have added a gospel which is not of God, and serve the wrong Jesus, whom they think is Satan’s brother. They don’t like that, but they do it with a pleasant smile and move on.

    The measure of whether people worship the God of scripture is in what is in their heart and what issues from their mouth, and how they conduct themselves, as disciples of Christ, before God and men, and, first and foremost, whether they have received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

    Until they are born again they cannot understand one iota of what is taught since spiritual things are spiritually discerned, and the natural or carnal mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

    I have yet to meet a totally man-centred, man-pleasing Hillsong member, although I don’t want to paint a picture of them which is idealistic or perfect, because, obviously, they are not, any more than you or I, and they have sometimes fallen, or stumbled, or missed God, even backslidden, but they do know what Holy Communion represents, and what repentance is, and how to settle issues with their Maker if they sin, and, you read and listen to the words of most of their worship songs, have a relationship and dependance on God which is healthy and respectful.

    So, contrary to your claims, from what I do see, the fruit of the Assemblies of God in Australia in general has been people who follow Jesus to the best of their abilities, and this is born out in the lives of the majority of the people from Hillsong that I know and fellowship with.

  14. $teve 🙂 – I have no doubt that within the Hill$ong movement there are people who are truly born again… having said that, I don’t believe a born again Christian would stay in Hill$ong. Once a person understand who God is, who they are and what Christ has done…. why would you sit and soak up the false teaching presented each week?

    Hill$ong promote a false gospel, centred on man. This is not difficult to understand, simply listen to Brian and his friends as they pump up the crowd, “be all you can be” – no different to Tony Robins + a few “God” phrases thrown in.

    The biggest issue in Christendom is lack of discernment.

    I Corinthians 15:33: Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”

    Just look at the company Hill$ong keeps: Joyce Meyer, Rick Warren, Ed Young Jnr, TD Jakes, Joseph Prince, the Osteens, Nicky Gumbel, Jentzen Franklin, Kong Hee, Bill Hybels, Steven Furtick… and more whom I do not know much about.

    Come on…

  15. “So, contrary to your claims, from what I do see […]”

    That’s the nub of your problem Steve – you’ve been pastoring for what – thirty years? – and you are *still* judging by appearances rather than making a correct judgement.

    So you understood nothing at the beginning and you’ve learnt nothing in the intervening period. That’s not a track record to be proud of; if it were me in your shoes I would have changed careers a long, long time ago.

  16. “You know what, I think I’d rather have Steve pastoring me that you Zorro.”

    And you know what I think? I’d be happy for *anyone* to pastor you if it meant that I didn’t have to.

  17. And yes, alpha is a load of pure, unmitigated ****.

    “Haven’t seen it to be so as yet!”

    That’s because your eyesight is about as good as Steve’s.

  18. @Greg – God loves me… thats great news… I love me too.

    Show me any messenger in scripture who starts by saying “God loves you”, sorry you wont find one.

  19. “[…] it begs the question […]”

    No it doesn’t; it *raises* the question.

    “Zorro and Jason are just plain nut jobs […]”

    And you yourself are an esteemed and discerning member of the spiritual cognoscenti, a thoroughly well-read and erudite scholar, the apotheosis of wisdom and font of all knowledge, and one who is altogether beyond reproach – is that right?

    Since you can’t appeal to Scripture (as you don’t recognise it as being authoritative), and since you don’t have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying, we’ll just have to accept your judgement your own say so, won’t we?

  20. “Since you can’t appeal to Scripture (as you don’t recognise it as being authoritative)”

    Takes us to my question on the other post…..

    “The question again…..

    “I would love Bones and Greg to give us more than their testimony, but a reason why we should believe it?

    Who is this Jesus? Where can I find Him? Where is your evidence?”

    I’m seriously asking this question. Where you direct people to find out about the hope that is within you?

  21. @Greg – The Gospel of John starts with chapter 1 then 2 and then 3. To jump to 3:16 is typical of today’s evangelism.

    My question with regards to 3:16 – did God send His son because we are so loveable, or simply because He loves? The Grace of God is revealed in John 3:16, not the misunderstanding that God really, really loves us.

  22. Margot, do you have a reason for believing the Bible is literally true, innerent and authoritative?

    Any reason must not involve the claims of the Bible itself, of course otherwise it would be a circular argument.

  23. “Margot, do you have a reason for believing the Bible is literally true, innerent and authoritative?

    Any reason must not involve the claims of the Bible itself, of course otherwise it would be a circular argument.”

    How ironic, Wazza. You don’t believe the Bible, and yet on the other thread you refer to the Bible to “prove” that Jesus thought the earth was flat.

    Which one is it? Either the Bible is true, and you can quote it, or it’s not true, and you shouldn’t quote it. Vacillating between two opinions is not a good thing you know; some have even gone so far as to suggest that a double-minded man should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Spiritual schizophrenia and selective credulity do nothing for a man’s credibility, either within the Church or without.

  24. If thats the case, Zorro, then we can not disprove or criticise any text at all, because we would have to refer to that text to disprove its literalness.

    Eg. we cannot say the Superman story is not literally true, eg. by saying there is no such thing as Kryptonite, or that there is no independent record of someone flying etc. – because that would mean referring to and quoting the very text that we are criticising.

    You can (and should) quote anything, whether it is literally true or not.

  25. “You can (and should) quote anything, whether it is literally true or not.”

    You can quote any source you want; what you can’t do is quote a source to prove that you are right, while at the same time holding that the very source from which you quote is not reliable.

    That is to say, either the Bible is reliable, and you can quote it to defend your position, or it is not reliable, and you cannot quote it to defend your position.

    Since you cannot make up your mind whether the Bible is authoritative or not, you have neither any basis for your faith (such as it may be) nor any means by which you can defend that faith. Your double-mindedness has left you bereft of any foundation whatsoever.

  26. Wazza- I believe that salvation is a gift by the sovereign grace of God. My justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed in the Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone.

    Unmerited yet restored. Knowing and being known as stated so well by many preceding generations of believers.

    No one can answer to your satisfaction, unless God Himself sovereignly intervenes and extends that same grace and unmerited favour to you.

  27. Get over it Zorro. You don’t own the Bible. Those who claim the Bible to be inerrant have bowed to and wish others to bow to a false doctrine. You have made the Bible your idol.

    If Christianity is based on an inerrant reading of Scripture than it is clearly a false belief. Those who wish to believe that are no different to Hindus who believe the Earth to be supported by elephants.

    Btw authority is based on the Bible, church history and reason.

    And no you can’t tell us to stop quoting the Bible although you would love to. Your authority over me is zip as is your inability to present a coherent argument. All your attacks are ad hominim.

  28. So Margot, you’re saying Wazza doesn’t have salvation nor the sovereign grace of God.

    And this is because he doesn’t believe the Bible to be inerrant.

    Nuts!

  29. “Btw authority is based on the Bible, church history and reason.”

    Says who?

    “And no you can’t tell us to stop quoting the Bible although you would love to.”

    Maybe I can’t tell you, but God certainly can:

    ‘But to the wicked, God says:

    “What right have you to recite my laws
    or take my covenant on your lips?

    You hate my instruction
    and cast my words behind you.’

    “All your attacks are ad hominim.”

    Are you going to accuse God of launching ad hominems? That’d be interesting to watch…

  30. Inspiration, Inerrancy, Preservation
    http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3714

    “So as I consider God’s gift of His Word, I am thankful that I have been forced to examine its history closely, and from many angles. And when I do, I am again and again forced to my knees in thanksgiving for what He has done. He has not left us to wander in darkness. He has provided us with a reliable, trustworthy guide in Holy Scripture.” James White

  31. @ Bones….

    “wazza2 says:
    August 17, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    Yeah Q, I think I am a border-line atheist. I struggle with some ideas that others just accept. The problem of evil is a difficult one, and I dont believe in a God who just capriciously asks for genocide. I cannot for the life of me believe that the Caananite holocaust was just, while the Israelite holocaust was evil… merely based on who it was who gave the order.

    On the other hand, I cannot believe there is no God. I cant believe that life is just ” A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.” . There is love in the world as well as evil and it seems to me that this must come from somewhere. And if there is a God it seems reasonable that He would reveal himself – and Christ is the only one who makes sense to me, and deals adequately with evil and sin.

    After you peel back an initial layer of uncertainty you come to a core of enquiry which is even less certain.”

  32. And another thing:

    “Btw authority is based on the Bible, church history and reason.”

    So each time Jesus was tempted by Satan, did he:

    a) Appeal to reason?
    b) Mention something from church history?
    c) Quote scripture?

    Where did Jesus go for something authoritative, Bones?

  33. Are you going to accuse God of launching ad hominems? That’d be interesting to watch…</i?

    Sadly you're not God. I know that's hard for you to understand.

  34. “Wazza is not an atheist. Though constant communication with you two will drive someone to atheism.”

    I find that very difficult to believe.

  35. “I think I am a border-line atheist”. Wazza’s words, not mine, not Zorro’s.

    But to be fair, notice I included his whole quote above at 10:10pm.

  36. Still ad hominem. Playing the man. You just can’t help yourself can you.

    I find that very difficult to believe.

    I don’t. There’s plenty of people who have left faith because they have been forced to believe in an inerrant Bible which when examined is clearly false. Some people are incapable of burying their heads in the sand.

    So they’ve thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

  37. I said I was border-line. Sometimes. But I cant cross that line.

    As the man said, i believe – help my unbelief.

  38. Zorro, I am not quoting the Bible as authoritative, I am quoting the text and showing what follows from it.

  39. Matthew 8:5-13 Jesus heals a roman centurion’s servant. He wasn’t Jewish, didn’t read the scriptures. May have even been pagan yet Jesus says of him

    “I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!”

    Jesus wasn’t interested in whether he thought Genesis 1 was real or if Job was an allegory.

  40. How do you know that, Bones? How do you know he hadn’t read OT texts?

    He certainly was a man of faith, he called Jesus “Lord” – no doubt a willing recipient of the gospel Christ was proclaiming.

    Still, your contention that “Jesus wasn’t interested in whether he thought Genesis 1 was real or if Job was an allegory” is you just eisegeting the text.

  41. “I am not quoting the Bible as authoritative, I am quoting the text and showing what follows from it.”

    If the text is not authoritative then nothing meaningful *can* follow from it – you might as well show what “follows” from the story of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves.

  42. “Jesus wasn’t interested in whether he thought Genesis 1 was real or if Job was an allegory.”

    So Greg knows exactly what Jesus thought and you know exactly what He was interested in. It really is ironic to see the degree of certitude exhibited by those who themselves get so annoyed at the “arrogance” of “fundamentalists” who would dare to spell out unvarnished truths in an uncompromising manner.

  43. Seems you’re reading more into it, Margot. He certainly wasn’t Jewish. The onus is on you to show he had any understanding of the Hebrew scriptures. Part of a Roman soldiers duties was to make pagan religious oaths to the divine emperor. He did however acknowledge the authority of Jesus.

  44. How depressing. Was just having a think about this Roman Centurion guy and his faith. And what do I find doing a simple google search? Gays saying that it wasn’t his servant that he was asking healing for, but his gay lover………

    Now I’ve heard everything! Think I’ll throw my computer away.

  45. Wazza,
    Margot, do you have a reason for believing the Bible is literally true, innerent and authoritative?

    Any reason must not involve the claims of the Bible itself, of course otherwise it would be a circular argument.

    Which is like asking someone to prove they’re alive without breathing!

    But you have this all back to front anyway.

    The issue isn’t whether a person can prove the Bible is literally true, but whether they accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

    If they have truly accepted Jesus as Lord, they will have received the Spirit of Christ, and be born again – born of the Spirit of God.

    Romans 8
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
    15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
    16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
    17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

    Then, when they read or study the Bible the Spirit will quicken to their spirit what is truth.

    You’ll never prove to an unbeliever that God, or the Bible or the Word of God, or Jesus is really true.

    1 Corinthians 2
    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
    13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    So for someone like wazza, who has the courage to say he is on the edges of belief, the Word of God cannot make sense, or be discerned, or even truly indicate the presence or fact of God, or the Word, or the Spirit, or Jesus, because he has to come all the way into faith, unconditional trust in God through believing wholeheartedly in Jesus, before he can even see (perceive) the reality of God’s Word.

    Until then he will always question God, the Creation, and the Word.

  46. That’s very condescending. How do you know wazza isn’t a spiritual man?

    And what is truth? It might be something you don’t like.

    How anyone can say that and be associated with people who spread a prosperity doctrine is hypocritical.

  47. It’s not condescending at all. It is truth.

    You ask what is truth. That is truth.

    What do you want me to do? Lie so your feelings are not crushed?

    It might be something you don’t like

    Yeah! There’s heaps of things not to like about truth.

    For instance, having to cop an accusation of being a fundamental in the most negative meaning of the word because I believe God’s Word and follow the scriptures.

    Like being called condescending for letting someone know why they can’t grasp what God is saying in those scriptures, and why they spend so much time questioning God.

    Being harangued upon as a hypocrite for associated with people who spread a prosperity doctrine, and even the very connotation applied to prosperity, which is actually a scriptural fact if you bothered to check it out n the Bible you don’t believe.

    Like having to put up with numskulls like Jason and Zorro when they constantly echo the same old same old false accusations about Pentecostals in same dreary meaningless tones of disparagement.

    Like being falsely labelled several unsavoury names for pointing out the indisputable, actual and real error of Catholic dogma.

    The truth is something a believer cannot deny, but it can be a painful experience to bear it openly.

    The truth hurts?

    It sure does.

  48. This church is built as a judgement from God. I pray God for His mercy and that churches like Hillsong will be no more and cease from the earth.

Comments are closed.