Islamic Reformation Dream

Here is a thought provoking post from Catalaxy Files which promotes the notion of the need for a Reformation of a current brand of archaic Islamic militant teaching, which is threatening to drag the world kicking and screaming back into the 15th century.

Luther helped transform the thinking of the Roman Catholic populace when it dominated the culture, politics, economics and military might of its contemporary world. It was a dominionist religion set on suppression and control of every community it overwhelmed and oversaw.

Luther wasn’t perfect. He was an anti-Semite for a start, and held to many of the Catholic errors which still exist, but he was also a product of his era to an extent. What he had was the spiritual and mental courage and conviction to force the religious elites of his day to face their errors as he built a movement which boldly resisted Roman dogma.

Of course, a struggle followed which is still not really over, but it changed the world and brought about the diminished power of a, then, corrupt and militant Catholic Church.

But it was through Luther’s use of the printing press, a new invention in his day, that his message was released to the Roman Empire and became such an influence. How many more ways do we have today of releasing the written and spoken word to the world if only there are people, like Luther, who are willing to speak out in the name of justice?

Islam: Where is Luther
Samuel J

Islam is a religion which has enslaved millions of its followers, who have been condemned to poor living standards, poor education and short life expectancy. Its women are treated as second class citizens. It denies freedom to its people, and hence they cannot enjoy economic and political freedom.

The teachings of Islam encourage its believers to sedition and treason as they strive for a Caliphate – this is fundamentally inconsistent with a Western democracy and its separation of state and religion.

It is the moral duty of all non-Muslims to encourage the conversion of their fellow humans to an alternative religion, or even atheism, or to a new and peaceful sect of Islam. To do this requires us to live honourable lives, to be exemplars of honesty and virtue. Muslims need to be cultivated with not only the material and intellectual life of the western world, but also the example of great virtues of enlightenment, scientific inquiry, the pursuit of knowledge, honesty and ethics. For too long the west has been portrayed as being weak and decadent. In part that is true – some of the actions of the Left have considerably undermined the intellectual and moral authority of the west. Trust underpins an economy (see for example, Bruce Schneier’s excellent book Liars and Outliers: Enabling the Trust that Society Needs to Thrive), while Islam undermines trust.

The implementation of sound economic policies in conjunction with these measures should over time bring more converts from Islam. On a large scale this will bring prosperity and better living standards to those suffering the oppression of this religion. It would also reduce the military tensions.

The enemies of the west are not the followers of Islam, most of whom do not subscribe to the worst of its intolerance and who wish to live peacefully. The enemy of the west is Islam the intolerant religion. A world without Islam – as currently conceived and frequently practiced – would be a better place for all of the world’s peoples.

The fundamental problem with Islam is its failure to recognise the separation of church and state. All other religions – even ones such as Scientology – recognise this separation. A key tenet of Islam is for a religious state. This cannot be accepted in a modern democracy.

Islam needs a Reformation – who will be Islam’s Martin Luther? A new peaceful sect must grow out of Islam which can live in harmony with western values and economics. Followers of this sect must stand up and reject the present form of Islam.

Many evils were committed in the name of the Catholic church in the post-Roman world, including the burning of heretics, violent crusades etc. For a very long period the people under the church lived in fear and terror, although we are the beneficiaries today with the magnificent Christian art and Gothic churches. But the reformation and counter-reformation gradually put this right and the church’s teaching reverted more faithfully to the New Testament and its doctrine of forgiveness rather than the Old Testament and its eye for an eye. Violence became eschewed – it would be up to God to decide whether a person would suffer eternal damnation or to live in Paradise.

Islam is in dire need of this reformation. It is not for people of this world to decide whether  the Prophet has been insulted, or indeed whether he cares that he has been insulted. It is not for people of this world to threaten death to those who do not follow the doctrine of Islam. Until all under Islam eschew violence and embrace a life of trust and ethical behaviour while tolerating the way other people decide to live we will continue to have the threat of terror hanging over us all. This reformation of Islam is urgently required and must, above all, recognise that Islam has no place in State business. The ancient Romans tolerated all religions and sects (generally if not always) provided they did not threaten the Imperial regime.

Such reform would bring new freedom and opportunities to follows of Islam, with greater wellbeing, security and happiness.

From a Christian perspective the greatest thing would be for Muslims to find Christ, and there are reports of Muslims being saved through visitations of Christ. Is there a new Messenger of Hope who will reach these people with the Good News, or will we be in this deadly conflict until Jesus comes?

___________________________

Posted by Steve


202 thoughts on “Islamic Reformation Dream

  1. I think it quite arrogant for a non Muslim to call for a reformation of the Islamic religion. I agree with the spirit, but who’s to say that reformation isn’t already happening. Do we know the internal workings of Islam enough to make these suggestions? Are we by our foreign policies playing into the hands of those who seek a deformation of Islam? Is out media hunger for scapegoats and burning men allowing the reformed message to get out there for us I know what’s going on? Most non Christians would probably consider the likes of Peter Jensen, ACL and Westbrough Baptists to speak for all Christianity, but we are painfully aware that the majority is not being represented by these extreme views.

  2. Greg,
    <i.Do we know the internal workings of Islam enough to make these suggestions?

    We know the external workings of militancy to make any suggestion which brings change. How is that arrogant?

    He’s calling for a peaceful revolution through setting a godly example. What’s the alternative?

  3. I’m no expert on Islam but they do have their denominations.

    The problem with Islam is the ones who take the Koran literally and are beholden only to their holy book.

    Interestingly it is the radical fundamentalist Wahabis (eg Osama Bin Ladan) who take the Koran literally. Not unlike Christian fundamentalists.

    Sunnis and Shiites

    The major split in Islam is that between the majority Sunnis and the minority Shiites. The split goes back to events in the 7th century:

    After Mohammed’s death in 632, leadership of the Islamic community passed to Abu Bakr as-Siddiq, one of Mohammed’s closest companions. Some in the community felt that this succession was not legitimate, and that the title of caliph really belonged to Ali ibn Abi Talib. Ali’s claim was supported by the fact that he was Mohammed’s cousin, his adopted son, his first convert (at the age of nine), and husband of his daughter Fatima. Both sides believe that Mohammed specifically designated their man: Supporters of Abu became the Sunnis, those of ibn Ali the Shiites.

    The Caliphate passed from Abu Bakr to Umar, and from Umar to Ulthman. Ulthman at last passed the torch to Ali. When Ali was murdered in 661, the Caliphate passed to Muawiya, who would found the famous Umayyid Caliphate. Ali was buried in Najaf in what is now Iraq, and the site remains a major Shiite holy site.

    Sunni refers to the sunnas, or oral traditions and interpretations of the Koran — a body of work similar to the Jewish Talmud. Sunnis believe that the position of Caliph should be a position to which one is elected by the religious leaders of the Islamic community, and not dependent on direct lineage from Mohammed.

    Shiite comes from the word shia, which means “the party (of Ali).” They are mostly found in Iran and Iraq, and among the Palestinians. They consider certain direct descendants of Ali – the Imams – infallible and the true inheritors of Mohammed. Ali was the first Imam, his son Hassan the second, his second son Hussein the third. Ali’s sons were killed in the conflict with Caliph Muawiya. However, their succession ended with the 12th Imam, who went into hiding in 940. Most Shiites believe that the 12th Imam will reemerge someday as the Mahdi or Messiah, and reassert his leadership of the Islamic world. In the meantime, ayatollahs are elected to serve as caretakers of the faith.

    Most Sunnis and Shiites are liberal, although not by western standards. In peaceful and prosperous times, there is little conflict between them. But both have more extreme factions as well. Some Shiites, for example, have a tradition of valuing martyrdom that came out of their early experiences of conflict with the Sunnis. The most famous Sunni extremist faction is the Wahhabi sect, of which Osama bin Laden is possibly a member. It is characterized by radical fundamentalism: The Koran is not to be interpreted but rather taken literally. There are to be no prayers or other appeals to prophets, saints, or any entity other than God. There are to be no images of or monuments to any supposed Islamic leaders, not even elaborate tombs for famous Moslems. And the Koran is to be the soul source of secular as well as religious law.

    Another famous group is the Sufi movement, which can be Sunni or Shiite. Sufis are mystics who believe that God’s love shines through everything, even ugliness and evil, and that by attaining a certain state of mind, one can directly experience this. In this sense, they resemble Zen Buddhism. Sufism is also noted for its use of stories that have layered meanings, much like the parables of Jesus. One subgroup of the Sufis is the “whirling dervishes,” whose mystical practice includes religious dance.

    http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/sunnisshiites.html

  4. I cant help but feel that a sect like the wasabis are reformers going back to their literal word of GOd denouncing prayers to the dead and shrines. What we need are Islamists who are more liberal and tolerant of others.

  5. The reformers werent all that enthusiastic about separation of church and state. Luther assumed the state would be run by Christian leaders, and he collaborated with the German princes in order to spread Protestantism. The most controversial incident was his support for the bigamy of Philip of Hesse, and Luther’s subsequent advice to Philip to lie about the whole affair. Luther and the rulers of the state were therefore constantly in league, and they looked to him for justification and validation of their actions.

    The Anabaptists appear to be the only reformers who kept themselves apart from the concerns of earthly kingdoms.

    The real separation of church and state came with the Enlightenment thinkers who were mainly deists.

  6. “Muslims need to be cultivated with not only the material and intellectual life of the western world, but also the example of great virtues of enlightenment, scientific inquiry, the pursuit of knowledge, honesty and ethics. For too long the west has been portrayed as being weak and decadent. In part that is true – some of the actions of the Left have considerably undermined the intellectual and moral authority of the west.

    There’s something so wrong about this passage.

    For starters is the insinuation that Muslims aren’t knowledgeable, honest or ethical. And of course can we give this advice to our Christian brethren who use dishonest means to deny and discredit current scientific thought.

    As for the actions of the Left, where’s the condemnation of the role of right wing politics in its support of Israel and anti-Palestinian policies; in the support of henchmen such as the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, the Saudi monarchy, President Mubarak of Egypt.

    If you can’t see the role of the political foreign policies in the Middle East and Islam’s distrust of the west, then you’re truly blind.

  7. I’m showing my ignorance as should probably look this up myself but I’ll ask Bones instead.

    Are there mosques for different groups in the one city? e.g Does Sydney have different mosques for sunnis, shiites etc? And in a protest (e.g like the other day) do people of different faiths join together?

    btw folks, the level has certainly picked up here.

    “I think it quite arrogant for a non Muslim to call for a reformation of the Islamic religion.

    Strangely enough, that was my first thought when I was reading through this the first time.

    The irony is that Muslims will probably be able to achieve many of their aims better through democratic processes because they’ll be a huge voting bloc in 30 years in many countries. The more Muslim politicians and voters there are, the more they will be able to push through or block legislation.

    So who knows, Australia could very well have more conservative laws in the future than we have now.

  8. I think you’ll find there are many imams condemning the violence including joint statements with Coptic Christian leaders condemning the video (made by a Coptic Christian).

    IMAMS at all 36 Melbourne mosques have been advised to warn Muslims at morning and evening prayers against violent protests such as the one in Sydney on Saturday about a film ridiculing Islam.
    There have been violent protests around the Muslim world in which several people have died. Western embassies have been attacked and the US ambassador to Libya was killed. In the Sydney clash, several police and protesters were injured and six protesters arrested.
    Muslim leaders and organisations condemned the violence, and the fact that young children held up placards with such messages as ”behead all those who insult the prophet”.
    An emergency meeting of the Victorian Board of Imams in Melbourne yesterday afternoon decided to email and telephone every imam, asking them to make the Friday lunchtime sermon about how to respond to the film, and to talk about it at morning and evening prayers – usually the best attended of the five daily prayers – until then.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/local-muslim-leaders-condemn-violence-20120917-262l5.html#ixzz270a8KV6v

  9. “Are there mosques for different groups in the one city? e.g Does Sydney have different mosques for sunnis, shiites etc?”

    No idea.

  10. I cant help but feel that a sect like the wasabis are reformers going back to their literal word of GOd denouncing prayers to the dead and shrines.

    That should read wahabis. I’m not a great fan of wasabi.

  11. Great question. Was just reading about the golden age of Islam and “islam and science”.

    I read a summary of a book once which basically stated that civilizations which are advanced all have one feature – they are openly involved in the transfer of knowledge and ideas. It’s the whole idea of people standing on the backs of giants.

    Civilizations who developed reading for example advance and those who get ideas and share ideas from other countries. So, it’s not that races and civilizations are smarter but that they get ideas and build on them. The author pointed out that the civilizations that we consider to have progressed the least were totally cut off from other groups. So we need each other. And it’s good to hang out with or at least read about people from outside your group. (that’s another reason why I dialogue with complete ratbags on blogs – I know that I can learn from complete nut cases….. 🙂 (joke)

    That’s not the answer you were looking for, but you got me thinking.

    When Muslims discuss your question they talk about the lack of emphasis on education, the advances in the west due to capitalism, and of course the negative effects of colonization of muslim countries by western powers.

    So for many – it’s the Wests fault.

    My simple politically incorrect conservative answer for which I will probably get beaten up for (and maybe rightly so – is that …..

    looking inwards, blaming everyone else for your problems and blowing things up will never lead to the advances which come from simply concentrating on becoming richer and happier.

  12. Hi Roundhouse – yes, it does appear at times that I disagree just to disagree – but in this case I do disagree (thank goodness, because I do not like agreeing with Steve)

    Islam was not just in “some ways”, but at one point in history Islam was THE shining light culturally, artisticly and in the advancement of science, mathematics etc.

    (from wikipedia)The Abbasid historical period lasting to 1258 (Mongol conquest of Baghdad) is considered the Islamic Golden Age.[1] The Islamic Golden Age was inaugurated by the middle of the 8th century by the ascension of the Abbasid Caliphate and the transfer of the capital from Damascus to Baghdad.[2] The Abbasids were influenced by the Qur’anic injunctions and hadith such as “the ink of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a martyr” stressing the value of knowledge.[2] During this period the Muslim world became an intellectual center for science, philosophy, medicine and education; the Abbasids championed the cause of knowledge and established the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, where both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars sought to translate and gather all the world’s knowledge into Arabic.[2] Many classic works of antiquity that would otherwise have been lost were translated into Arabic and Persian and later in turn translated into Turkish, Hebrew and Latin.[2] During this period the Muslim world was a cauldron of cultures which collected, synthesized and significantly advanced the knowledge gained from the ancient Roman, Chinese, Indian, Persian, Egyptian, Greek and Byzantine civilizations.[2]

    They (Arabs/Muslims) had hospitals during the medieval age, they advanced triginometry and astronomy, they were leading the world in just about everything until the mongols invaded Baghdad.

    It is interesting to note that we would know very little of what we do about ancient people and documents with out Arabic translations of those texts, as during the middle ages European knowledge along with the protection of manuscripts was in sharp decline.

  13. We know the external workings of militancy to make any suggestion which brings change. How is that arrogant?

    It is arrogant for any non muslim who has not done a great deal of study into Islam to think that what they are fed of the ‘external workings’ of Islam is the whole story and that therefore based upon what they know from the media they have the right or even the adequate insight to make comment.

    In answer to the question about different mosques etc, i do know that the Mosque in Lakemba is very conservative adn radical however the Mosque in Auburn is far more encompassing and even has open days inviting peopoe in to look and see what they do. It is a beautiful building built using Turkish Marble

  14. THE GOLDEN AGE OF ISLAM

    By Dr Zachariah Matthews

    Presented at the Australian New Muslim Association (ANMA) Fundraising Dinner, Bankstown, Friday 1 October 2004.

    SALAM Magazine, http://www.famsy.com/salam/ Sep-Oct 2004

    Islam, the youngest of all the world’s religions emerged on the world scene in 622 CE (Current Era) with the Hijra (migration), of Prophet Muhammad (s) and his small band of followers, from Mecca to Medina in northwest Arabia. One hundred fifty years later the Muslim government where Allah is the ultimate authority had become the Islamic Empire, encircling the Mediterranean Sea from Syria and the Tigris and Euphrates Valley east to southern China and western India, south through what had been the Persian Empire and Saudi Arabia, west through Egypt and across North Africa, and north through Spain to the Pyrenees. With the founding of the city of Baghdad and the establishment of the Abbasid Caliphate (Muslim religious/political leaders, successors of the Prophet) in the mid-8th century, Islam’s golden age began to emerge. For 400 years, from the mid-9th century until the sack of Baghdad by the Mongols in 1256, Muslim culture was unparalleled in its splendor and learning.

    A number of fortunate circumstances came together to make this golden age possible. Perhaps most significant was the creation of a vast empire without internal political boundaries, largely free from external attack. Trade began to flow freely across the Asian continent and beyond. The wisdom of India and China mingled with that of Persia, ancient Greece, Rome, and Egypt. In most cases civilizations conquered by Islam remained administratively and intellectually intact, unlike those overrun by northern barbarians. Thanks in part to Prophet Muhammad’s assertion that “the ink of scholars is more precious than the blood of martyrs,” Islamic leaders valued — in fact, sought out — the intellectual treasures of their subject provinces. Further, the Muslim use of Arabic, the language of the Quran, led to its standardization throughout the empire as the language of faith and power, and likewise of theology, philosophy, and the arts and sciences.

    Unification under one faith and language alone, however, did not produce the explosion of literacy and learning experienced by the Islamic Empire. In the mid-8th century, Chinese paper-making technology arrived in Samarkand, on the eastern border of the empire. Suddenly, the labour-intensive processing of hides and papyrus was replaced by mass-production of paper from pulped rags, hemp, and bark; large personal libraries — as well as public ones — became commonplace. At about the same time, the so-called “Arabic” numerals (imported from India) began to replace cumbersome Roman numerals, and introduced the concept of zero for the first time. Public education, also mandated by the Prophet (s), spread rapidly.

    The Golden Age was a period of unrivalled intellectual activity in the field of literature (as a result of intensive study of the Islamic faith) – particularly biography, history, and linguistics. Scholars, for example, in collecting and re-examining the hadith, or “traditions” – the sayings and actions of the Prophet – compiled immense biographical detail about the Prophet and other information, historic and linguistic, about the Prophet’s era. This led to such monumental works as Sirat Rasul Allah, the “Life of the Messenger of Allah,” by Ibn Ishaq, later revised by Ibn Hisham; one of the earliest Arabic historical works, it was a key source of information about the Prophet’s life and also a model for other important works of history such as al-Tabari’s Annals of the Apostles and the Kings and his massive commentary on the Quran.

    The accomplishments of Islam’s Golden Age are too numerous to mention. Massive translation and copying projects made Greek, Roman, and Sanskrit knowledge available to Arabic-speaking scholars across the empire. Medieval Europe received the Hellenic classics that made the Renaissance possible mostly through Arabic translations. Building on Hellenic, Persian, and Hindu sources, physicians within the Islamic Empire advanced medical knowledge enormously. Perhaps their most significant single achievement was the establishment of medicine as a science based on observation and experimentation, rather than on conjecture. Islamic scientists developed the rudiments of what would later be called the scientific method.

    Seventy-five years after the death of Prophet Muhammad (s), the first of many free public hospitals was opened in Damascus. Asylums were maintained throughout the empire for the care of the mentally ill. In the early 10th century, Spanish physician Abu Bakr al-Razi introduced the use of antiseptics in cleaning wounds, and also made the connection between bacteria and infection. Al-Hasan published a definitive study on optics (the science of light and vision) in 965. Thirteenth-century Muslim physician Ibn al-Nafis discovered and accurately described the functioning of the human circulatory system. Islamic veterinary science led the field for centuries, particularly in the study and treatment of horses.

    Muslim alchemists (early forerunners of modern chemists) in the 10th to 14th centuries, inspired by ancient chemical formulas from China and India, are famous for the endless experiments they performed in their laboratories. Their goals ranged from pursuit of a chemical elixir bestowing enhanced life, to the transformation of base metals to gold. Although they never succeeded in their ultimate goals, they did make numerous valuable discoveries — among them the distillation of petroleum and the forging of steel.

    Roman techniques of manufacturing glass lenses stimulated Al-Hasan’s breakthrough in the field of optics (the science of light and vision), which demolished Aristotle’s theory that vision was the result of a ray emanating from the eye, encompassing an object, and bringing it back to the soul. Al-Hasan’s Book of Optics, published in 965, was first to document sight as visual images entering the eye, made perceptible by adequate light. This book remained the pre-eminent text in its field until 1610, when the work of European Johannes Kepler surpassed it.

    Islamic mathematicians refined algebra from its beginnings in Greece and Egypt, and developed trigonometry in pursuit of accurate ways to measure objects at a distance. Muslim scholars also made important and original contributions to astronomy. They collected and corrected previous astronomical data, built the world’s first observatory, and developed the astrolabe, an instrument that was once called “a mathematical jewel.”

    Islamic architects borrowed heavily from the Byzantine Empire which used domes and arches extensively throughout their cities. An example of this use can be seen in the Dome of the Rock, a famous mosque in Jerusalem.

    Avid students of both the heavens and the earth, Muslim scholars made detailed and accurate maps of both. Muslim mapmakers to accurately map distances around the earth refined longitude and latitude. Twelfth-century Persian Omar Khayyam developed a calendar so reliable that over 500 years it was off by only one day. The list goes on and on.

    Religious Tolerance

    When Islam was laying the foundations of its civilisation; it did not adopt a narrow-minded attitude to other religions. The behaviour toward other religions was in keeping with the principles laid down in the Quran:

    “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error… (Al-Baqarah 256)

    “If it had been your Lord’s Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Will you then compel people, against their will, to believe!” (Yunus 10:99)

    Say: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between any of them: and we submit to Allah (in Islam).” (Q2:136)

    “…Had not Allah checked one set of people by means of another there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure…” (Al-Hajj 22:40)

    The well known American writer, Draper, wrote: “During the period of the caliphs, the learned men of the Christians and the Jews were not only held in high esteem but were appointed to posts of great responsibility, and were promoted to high ranking positions in government. Haroon Rasheed appointed John the son of Maswaih, the Director of Public Instruction and all the schools and colleges were placed under his charge. He (Haroon) never considered to which country a learned person belonged nor his faith and belief, but only his excellence in the field of learning.”

    Sir Mark Syce, writing on the qualities of Muslim rule during the period of Haroon Rasheed said: “The Christians, the idolaters, the Jews and the Muslims as workers running the Islamic State were at work with equal zeal.”

    Liefy Brutistal wrote in his book: “Spain of the Tenth Century: So often the scribe writing out the terms of a treaty was a Jew or a Christian. Just as many Jews and Christians were holding charge of important posts in the State. And they were vested with authority in the administrative departments, even in matters of war and peace. And there were several Jews who acted as the ambassadors of the Caliph in European countries.”

    Islam’s Golden Age has many lessons to teach the greedy and terrorized world of today.

    Why did it all end?

    Why did Islam’s Golden Age come to an end? What forces shifted both political power and learning from the Islamic Empire to Christian Europe? Like all historical trends, the explanations are complex; yet some broad outlines may be identified, both within and without Muslim lands. With the end of the Abbasid Caliphate and the beginning of the Turkish Seljuk Caliphate in 1057 CE, the centralized power of the empire began to shatter. Religious differences resulted in splinter groups, charges of heresy, and assassinations. Aristotelian logic, adopted early on as a framework upon which to build science and philosophy, appeared to be undermining the beliefs of educated Muslims. Orthodox faith was in decline and skepticism on the rise.

    The appeal by some erring theologians turned the tide back, declaring reason and its entire works to be bankrupt. They declared that experience and reason that grew out of it were not to be trusted. As a result, free scientific investigation and philosophical and religious toleration were phenomena of the past. Schools limited their teaching to theology. Scientific progress came to a halt.

    During this same period, the European Crusades (1097-1291) assailed Islam militarily from without. Cordoba fell to Spanish Christians in 1236. When the Mongols sacked Baghdad in 1256 (or 1258) the Islamic Empire never recovered. Trade routes became unsafe. Urban life broke down. Individual communities drew in upon themselves in feudal isolation. Science and philosophy survived for a while in scattered pockets, but the Golden Age of Islam was at an end.

    Conclusion

    Muslims rose to the height of civilisation in a period of four decades. For more than 1,000 years the Islamic Civilisation remained the most advanced and progressive in the world. This is because Islam stressed the importance of and held great respect for learning, forbade destruction, developed discipline and respect for authority, and stressed tolerance for other religions. The Muslims recognised excellence and hungered intellectually. The teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah drove many Muslims to their accomplishments in all disciplines of knowledge.

    Muslims of today must apply those same principles of success in order to rectify the current state of decay. May Allah (swt) grant us the strength and wisdom to accomplish just that!

    References:

    1. Tapestry: The Institute for Philosophy, Religion, and the Life Sciences, Inc. http://www.stormwind.com/common/islam.html

    2. http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ihame/Sec7.htm

    3. Jeffery Watkins: (1999-2003) Oswego City School District Regents Exam Prep Center http://regentsprep.org/Regents/global/themes/goldenages/islam.cfm

    4. Dr. Ibrahim B. Syed, PhD: 2001, http://WWW.IRFI.ORG and http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed04.htm

    5. Some glittering aspects of the Islamic civilisation, Dr Mustafa Siba’i, (p69-91).

  15. Islam is a religion which has enslaved millions of its followers, who have been condemned to poor living standards, poor education and short life expectancy.

    What a load of rubbish.

    Yes, there are poor countries that are majority Islamic – but there are also por countries that are Christian or have been colonised by Christians and so can attribute their succes or lack thereof to the intervention of Christianity as well: Check out this map and you can see the picture yourself.

  16. “Islam was, in some ways, culturally advanced at one stage. What happened?”

    Islam has been through as many cultural changes as Christianity, I expect.

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book, ‘Infidel’, highlights the mix of tribalism with Islam.

    There have been great and sophisticated Islamic civilizations, living it would appear harmoniously with others, until driven out by the Christian church of the day (such as with the Jews when the Spanish Inquisition rose), and of course during the Crusades, from where the concept of suicide assassin first emerged. (Hashisan? Anyway, to resist the crusaders, Islamic fighters of the day got high on hashish and committed suicide acts to drive the invaders away. Hence the awful ignorance of George Bush when he mentioned ‘crusade’ in his speech years ago.)

    It would seem from reading her book that some of the issues today arise from the clash of older tribal values with modern values formed hundreds of years after our own societies left ‘tribalism’ behind, or at least found ways to prosper by living on a larger scale, tolerant of those around us. In other words, it was to our advantage to live in such a way, but we discovered that and won that over time.

    With the dispersion of great Muslim empires, and the rise of tribalism through oil enriched nations that became wealthy fast, but still have to deal with customs the west abandoned centuries back, Islam has probably changed a great deal over time.

    Then you’ve got oil rich nations (Saudi Arabia) with educational agendas setting up schools to spread their values, which has been occurring in places in South East Asia for decades. Saudi Arabia had a long term view of their influence.

    All influences on the face of Islam today.

    Who knows where it will go, now that everything is global? There are many Christians, but a small number of fanatics in some areas that take things to extremes. I imagine Islam is similar. However, their fundamentalists are organised and funded well. I hope the moderate Muslims can speak out and influence the extremists. But possibly the extremists will write them off as being ‘liberal’. I have seen that word thrown around in circles discussing Islam too.

  17. I think every civilisation has its golden age and then a period of decline. China and India were once extremely prosperous and technologically advanced, and it looks like its their turn again.

    Its human nature to rest on your laurels and use accumulated wealth to generate more wealth. The west, I think is now in decline culturally. There is no longer a generally agreed set of values, except for the almighty dollar and 15 mins of fame. Kids no longer have an ambition to be a doctor, missionary or musician, they want to have the ‘X-factor’ or to be an Idol.

    Cultures outside the west dont like the lack of values they see in the west, and the way the west uses its power to extend its dominance.

  18. Many empires have declined once they become rich, haven’t they.

    But even at a family level, they say wealth is usually lost by the third generation, by those who maybe don’t appreciate the hard work it took to come by the wealth, and take it for granted, and waste it with no eyes to the future. Perhaps it is like this for civilisations too, once they come to take civilisation for granted.

  19. Greg, do you really think that this was truly objective history that everyone agrees on?

    “Muslims rose to the height of civilisation in a period of four decades. For more than 1,000 years the Islamic Civilisation remained the most advanced and progressive in the world. ”

    Gregory, you really lapped up that stuff didn’t you?

    Would you like to study read all that again and just ask yourself if it’s really true? Whether the writer is objective?

    If someone wrote about the glories of the western world and the influence of the Bible all the cynism and critique would come out.

    But Dr Zachariah Matthews spiel on how great Islam is?

    Naive is the nicest word I can think of right now.

    “It is a beautiful building built using Turkish Marble”

    Oh how wonderful….

    If Hillsong built something with Turkish marble we’d never hear the end of it here.

    Really – how about you read Islamic PR with a tenth of the cynicism you do when you read about Christianity.

  20. By the way, two of those links didn’t work, one was from a high school teaching course, and the others from the Islamic sites.

    But I think it should be obvious to anyone that a speech given at a fundraising event for Muslims in Bankstown is going to perhaps be a little more glowing that might be expected elsewhere.

    Signposts02 -where you can find out everything bad about Christianity, and learn about the wonders of Islam and all it’s “glittering aspects”.

    Amazing..

  21. “Muslims rose to the height of civilisation in a period of four decades. For more than 1,000 years the Islamic Civilisation remained the most advanced and progressive in the world. ”

    Gregory, you really lapped up that stuff didn’t you?

    Have you any evidence to the contrary?

    Perhaps you need to take your own advice with regard to criticism of Christianity young Q

  22. The person who makes the statement is the one who needs to prove it.

    ” For more than 1,000 years the Islamic Civilisation remained the most advanced and progressive in the world. This is because Islam stressed the importance of and held great respect for learning, forbade destruction, developed discipline and respect for authority, and stressed tolerance for other religions.”

    I’m not sure how Matthews came to that conclusion and how the measures he used, but no, I don’t see Matthews as an objective world historian.

    But if you give me the years, I’ll tell you why if you don’t believe me.
    Is he saying from the late 7th to the 17th century?

    “Perhaps you need to take your own advice with regard to criticism of Christianity young Q”

    Agreed.

  23. @Greg

    “at one point in history Islam was THE shining light culturally, artisticly and in the advancement of science, mathematics etc.”

    So was Babylon. But they were also one of the most brutal civilisations in human history. Just because Islam gave us some very important advancements in the sciences, it doesn’t make them a shining light culturally or spiritually. I suggest that Greg, Bones and wazza acquaint themselves with the terms Taqiyya and Kitman. There are two forms of lying to non-believers (that’s you and I) that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam – in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them. In other words, they will use deceit and lies for the advancement of their religion. They will tell you one thing, and do the complete opposite. We have many Islamic leaders condemning the riots around the world, yet these same leaders will champion the violence in the privacy of their mosques. They tell us what they think we want to hear. And gullible people in the West are lapping it up. Fools. I personally don’t trust any Muslim, no matter how “nice” they appear. The aim of Islam is total world domination. They are not scared to declare this as fact. They aim to have an Islamic Caliphate in every country on the planet. And sadly, they will probably achieve it, with the help of apologists such as Greg, Bones and wazza. They are dangerous and cannot be trusted.

  24. Roundhouse, seeing you are an expert on the Koran, Islam and lying can you analyse this article for me, specifically

    In Islam, the Prophet Muhammad allowed for three (and only three) exceptions to the rule of truth-telling:

    Lying is not permitted except in three cases: (1) a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; (2) lying at times of war; (3) and lying in order to reconcile between people.

    A Man’s Speaking to His Wife to Make Her Happy
    Under Islamic law, a husband is permitted to lie to his wife if she asks him “do I look beautiful?” So as not to hurt her feelings, the husband may claim she is the most beautiful woman on earth, even if in reality she looks horribly ugly. This permission is given to the husband, argue Islamic jurists, to safeguard the woman’s feelings. It would be cruel, they say, to be honest in this case. (One cannot help but be reminded of the epic Geico commercial.)

    Compare this with the 9th Commandment

    eg
    Let’s think about some real life situations. I do not believe the ninth commandment was given to force full, exhaustively detailed “truth telling” to questions like the following:
    1. Do I look fat in this dress?
    2. Doctor, did my little boy suffer before he died?
    3. How do I look?

    Lying in Order to Reconcile People
    Another exception in Islam with regard to telling the truth is when it comes to reconciling people. This, argue Muslims, is based on Islam’s emphasis on peace. The Prophet Muhammad said:
    He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar. [9]

    Lying in Times of War
    It is this third instance of permissible lying that Robert Spencer et al. make the most fuss about, especially the Prophet Muhammad’s statement that “war is deceit/deception.”
    As mentioned by our very own Inconnu, the Prophet Muhammad made this statement during the Battle of the Trench. The Confederates were threatening to use their overwhelming numbers to destroy the fledgling Islamic city-state of Medina. They lay siege to the beleaguered city, and the entire religion of Islam was on the brink of being snuffed out entirely. It was in this particular circumstance that a man named Nuaym ibn Masud was instructed by the Prophet Muhammad to break the deadly siege. Nuaym said he could do this, but that “this requires me to lie.” The Prophet replied with those now infamous words “war is deception.” And so Nuaym went to the various factions making up the Confederates and convinced them of the supposed disloyalty of their own allies. This sowed discord and disunity in the enemy ranks, which the Muslims capitalized on to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. [11]

    According to Islamic law, when a person enters a non-Muslim country using a visa, by doing so he enters into a covenant of peace with them. It thereby becomes forbidden for such a person to plot against them, and their wealth, lives, and property are considered sacrosanct. As the classical Islamic jurist Imam Shafi’i opined: “If he is safe from them, they should be safe from him.” In other words, a Muslim may not plot against the non-Muslims who allowed him to enter their country. During the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad, a man named Mughira bin Shuba converted to Islam while living in the lands of the non-Muslims. Upon his conversion, Mughira killed the men while they were caught unaware, and ran off with their wealth. When Mughira fled to the lands of Islam with this wealth, the Prophet Muhammad rejected his action, calling it “treachery.” The Prophet said: “The wealth…is obtained through treachery, and we have no need of it.”

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/08/silencing-spencer-taqiyya-and-kitman-are-part-of-judeo-christian-belief/

  25. According to Islamic law, when a person enters a non-Muslim country using a visa, by doing so he enters into a covenant of peace with them. It thereby becomes forbidden for such a person to plot against them, and their wealth, lives, and property are considered sacrosanct.

    So burning cars, city centres and flags are acts of peace?

  26. Greg,
    It is arrogant for any non muslim who has not done a great deal of study into Islam to think that what they are fed of the ‘external workings’ of Islam is the whole story and that therefore based upon what they know from the media they have the right or even the adequate insight to make comment.

    I do not consider this the external workings o Islam any more than he workers. They are obviously determined that this is, indeed, the very essence of Islam at this time.

    It involves raising vast crowds of people worldwide in an orchestrated violent act of sabotage and destruction. It leaves people dead and dying on the streets. It sends a message of fear and terror to the non-Muslim cosmos.

    This means it is happening on our, my, your watch, o9ld bean. That i what makes it my, your, our business, my dear friend.

    Knowing what the history of Islam might or might not be has very little to do with anything. If someone threatens to burn down my house, kill my wife and children and behead me for not respecting their prophet my life is under direct threat. I have been warned. My family is under threat.

    You will say, no doubt, that i should not, therefore, make a silly carton, or a comment, or a video which may offend a militant because i portray his prophet in a poor light, but then i say to you, why should I be afraid to say whatever I think.

    Should I have the same view of the ‘artist’ who concocted the ‘Piss Christ’? No. He has the political and religious right to demonstrate his disgust of my faith. I reject his observation outright, but I protect his right o have that opinion. I am not his judge. God will be. let God decide. Let God judge. Let God bring down the recompense. My only weapon is love. I will do what I can to convert the wrongheaded person, not behead him in a fit of religious fervour.

    We don’t seek to kill our enemies, but to love them and see them converted.

    It is, then, very much my business, and I do have the right, democratically, religiously, morally, actually and in reality to make whatever comment or judgement I deem fit, based on my secular affiliations, my political interests, my religious views, my sense of protection for my family, friends and community, and a sense of obligation to fight tyranny, terror and threat with every fibre of my being whenever it threatens my loved ones and community.

    But I don’t fight it with the same sword with which it is given, but with another Sword. I fight it with words,the Word, with persuasion, with prayer, and with every spiritual device at my disposal, including godly reason and logic.

    But don’t let these angry mobs attempt to get through my door to my family without resistance. And don;t let them threaten me on my streets when the Government, graced and empowered by God, has provided armed peacekeepers to stop them and protect us.

    You can call me arrogant if you want, but I think, if I did not act, the actual word would be ignorant.

  27. The real arrogance is the effrontery of pretend tolerance which defends the militant on the basis of appeasing the moderate.

    Ever heard of good cop bad cop?

    It’s a psychological means to an end.

    It’ll be too late to do anything when you find yourself paying taxes and confined to dhimmitude and crying out to God for the Government to show mercy to Christians.

  28. I mean, do you really think the moderates have any control whatsoever over the militants? Where do you think the militants recruit from?

    Wake up, man!

  29. From the ABC:

    Deadly clashes flared on Friday as tens of thousands took to the streets across Pakistan, throwing stones at police who fought back with gunshots and tear gas at rallies denouncing a US-made film that has fanned global Muslim anger.

    Clashes broke out in the country’s five largest cities, killing thirteen people and wounding nearly 200 others, defying government calls for peaceful protests on what was declared a national holiday in honour of the Prophet Mohammed.

    Witnesses estimated that nationwide rallies mobilised more than 45,000, heavily populated by members of right-wing religious parties and supporters of banned terror groups, although the numbers were still small in a country of 180 million.

    Arsonists and looters attacked cinemas, banks, shops and restaurants in Karachi, where outbreaks of political and ethnically linked violence have killed hundreds this year.

    Two picture houses were also torched and ransacked in the conservative north-western city of Peshawar, which runs into tribal belt strongholds of the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

    In Karachi, a policeman died after being shot by unknown people when officers used tear gas to disperse a crowd near the US consulate, and two people were killed in Peshawar, including the driver for a TV channel which blamed police for his death.

    Western missions shut in Pakistan and across the Islamic world, fearing further escalation of a 10-day violent backlash over the low-budget film Innocence of Muslims that has spread to 20 countries, leaving more than 30 people dead.

    France, where a magazine this week published a series of cartoons mocking the Prophet Mohammed, has shut embassies, consulates, cultural centres and schools in 20 Muslim countries, fearing the backlash will spread from US targets.

    In Islamabad gunshots were fired outside the five-star Serena Hotel and police baton-charged protesters. The crowd of around 8,000 was held back by barricades protecting the heavily-guarded diplomatic enclave, an AFP reporter said.

    Officers fired tear gas and members of the crowd threw stones, shouting “Americans are dogs” and “Friends of America are traitors”, while setting fire to an effigy of a nameless American.

    Can you believe that the Pakistani authorities gave everyone the day off to have a day of peace to celebrate the prophet and protest peacefully!

    Religion of peace! Pieces more like!

  30. I’d say Islam desperately needs a Reformation, especially in a place like Pakistan, which is fast becoming the main breeding ground for global hate.

  31. There’s an article in the Sydney Morning Herald this weekend about the divisions within the Islamic community in Sydney:

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/disunity-not-anger-is-muslim-dilemma-20120921-26c4m.html

    Sounds like a nightmare. The good thing that might come from the protest last week (and maybe from anything that happens this weekend) is that the moderates will take a stronger stand in their community, and work out ways of dealing with their disenfranchised youth in particular. But the entire situation is loaded.

    It seems that media coverage only makes it worse, as the article points out, by giving the extreme elements greater significance. That’s why articles on moderate Islam, and the good parts of Islam, are so important.

  32. But according to those in the know, who have never met a muslim, all muslims are liars and are not to be trusted. And they cry because their logic is the same used by others to build up their prejudices.

  33. Why is it ‘so-called’ Islamic violence?

    ‘So-called’ implies ‘not real’. It is very real It is happening as we speak. Fifteen dead in Pakistan.

    It is actually well called Islamic violence, because he people conducting it are Muslim and doing it in the name of Allah! Nothing ‘so-called’ about that.

    I work with several Muslims. All nice people. Not one mentioned anything about Islamic violence. It was very quiet in the office. I didn’t press it, but nothing was said.

    Did you talk to Muslims about it, Greg? What did they say?

  34. Yes I have and they were disgusted and said it wasn’t about Islam at all, rather it was about politics and power. The coat of religion is used to cover baser motivations.

    They did not want to be identified with this violence in the streets.

  35. @Greg

    Ask your Muslim friends what they think of Israel. Every single one of them, the guy in your local 7-11, the taxi driver, your mechanic, dentist, or the woman in the hijab pushing her pram down the local shopping strip, hates Israel with a passion and long to see it wiped from the map. Ask them what they think of America. Ask them what they think about democracy. Ask them what they think about Christianity. They are a hate-filled religion, with none of the civilised traits that we in the Judeo-Christian West hold dear. They hate me, and they hate you Greg. Yet you cheese eating surrender monkeys (H/T The Simpsons) make excuses for them. You know, it’s disgusting that you, Bones and wazza pour such scorn upon Christians, yet grovel over these hate-mongers. Speaks volumes about your character.

  36. I work with several Muslims. All nice people. Not one mentioned anything about Islamic violence. It was very quiet in the office. I didn’t press it, but nothing was said.

    Must be pretty hard working with liars and people you can’t trust. Maybe you should talk to them.

    Oh that’s right they just lie anyway.

  37. In fact, Bones, I do have business dealings with Muslims, and have found that they tend to dally with the truth somewhat, and cheat, or rather, faff around a lot when to comes to money matters. Frustratingly. Especially when it comes to keeping appointments, taking responsibility or paying bills. Particularly with ‘infidels’, if you get my drift.

    I can’t help that. What did you want me to do? Lie to you?

    Have you had many financial dealings with your Muslim brothers?

    Have you made any appointments with them, which they had to keep with you, rather than the other way around, because, I find, that when it is to their advantage, they show up and pay up, but when it is not there are suddenly excuses, missed appointments, late payments and even an inability to make contact, even when they have more than one mobile phone and you have all the numbers!

    Maybe it’s just cultural. Maybe I have just had a bad run with a few wayward chaps bearing the name of their prophet. I don’t know, but what Roundhouse said certainly resonated with me.

    My wife and I just laugh it off, most of the time, and put i down to a cultural dysfunction of some kind, but it has become quite serious and not so funny a couple of times when we have come close to missing serious payments because we were not paid. Do you know what I mean? Probably not!

    What, though is your experience with these wonderful people.

  38. I have talked to them about Christianity, and they each, to a person, had the greatest amount of respect for our faith…in fact have even said to me that they couldn’t call themselves Muslim without a belief in and respect for Jesus. Naturally they don’t believe what we believe and they don’t understand how we can believe it, but there is not a single shred of hatred.

    How would you feel if someone came and violently kicked you out of Australia Roundhouse? That’s what happened to Muslims in Israel, what would they be angry about that? Not all Muslims feel that way, just like all aboriginals don’t necessarily hate white Australians.

  39. What, though is your experience with these wonderful people.

    That they’re human beings and they’re my neighbour as Jesus said.

    Sorry I’m not a judgmental prick like some on here.

  40. Maybe you should talk to them.

    Oh I do. I have had to ask why they treat me the way they do, and why they dishonour their ‘god’ with their unreliability. What do you do, Bones?

    You see I’m not afraid to be honest and upfront with people. If I make an appointment, I’m there. If I have a bill I pay it on time. I do the right thing with them, and expect better treatment from them in return, especially when they are representing their religion.

    Don’t you?

    And I have excellent relationships with all of them because I remain honest and up front with them, because that is the Christian way, and I continue to represent Christ with integrity, so that O am not ashamed, nor do I shame my God in front of them.

    So they allow me to pray with them, share Christ with them, invite me to their weddings, show me photos of their families, share a meal with me, hear what have to say.

    I build bridges, but I don’t compromise and won’t be taken for a fool.

    And you, what is your solution.

  41. Bons,
    That they’re human beings and they’re my neighbour as Jesus said.

    Is that a generalisation in case you ever meet one, or do you actually hang out with any?

  42. In fact, Bones, I do have business dealings with Muslims, and have found that they tend to dally with the truth somewhat, and cheat, or rather, faff around a lot when to comes to money matters. Frustratingly.

    I’ve found the same with Aboriginals, poor whites, single parents.

    So do you trust your workmates or not?

  43. From today’s Australian newspaper:

    Here is a hard truth. Islamist extremists didn’t hate America because of Bush. They hated Bush because of America. And now they hate Obama, because of America…

    If ever a US president was going to garner goodwill in the Muslim world it was surely going to be Barack Hussein Obama, with his Kenyan father, his post-colonial consciousness, his years of childhood in Muslim Indonesia, his eloquence on racial issues, the global pop star vibe he generated…

    He made every conceivable effort in making overtures to the Muslim world. He tiptoed around Iranian sensibilities, extended an open hand to the ayatollahs, refrained even from voicing any early criticism when they stole an election. In Cairo Obama made an eloquent plea for reconciliation between the Muslim world and America. He beat up on Israel, even at one point refusing to be seen in public with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and he made an elaborate bow to a Saudi royal.

    But none of it has won anything from the Middle East. It may be that Bush overestimated what hard power could achieve. But in his first year in office, Obama certainly overestimated what soft power, and his own personality and eloquence, could achieve.

  44. A quote from a Pakistani spokesman over the national day off in Pakistan so that they could “protest” the youtube video:

    Mohammed Tariq Khan, a protester in Islamabad, said: “Our demand is that whoever has blasphemed against our holy Prophet should be handed over to us so we can cut him up into tiny pieces in front of the entire nation.”

  45. A quote from a Pakistani protester:

    “We are all ready to die for Prophet Muhammad,” said Karachi protester Mohammad Arshad. “We want to show the world that Muslims are one and united on the issue.”

  46. Pakistan’s Prime Minister:

    “If denying the Holocaust is a crime, then is it not fair and legitimate for a Muslim to demand that denigrating and demeaning Islam’s holiest personality is no less than a crime?”

  47. Is that a generalisation in case you ever meet one, or do you actually hang out with any?

    Would you ask Jesus the same question? Yes I regularly take my boy to his Muslim friend’s place for parties and such.

    Very nice people.

    Haven’t lied to me. YET.

    I take the words of Jesus literally. Even intolerant dickheads like you are my neighbour.

  48. Of course Roundhouse keeps sprouting the extremes of Islam to justify his prejudice.

    Our neighbours to the north have moved to settle their populations.

    ‘Don’t Overreact’ to Anti-Islam Movie: Indonesian Muslim Leaders

    The Indonesian Council of Ulema (MUI) on Friday asked Muslims here not to be provoked by the anti-Islam movie “Innocence of Muslims,” but at the same time demanded that legal action be taken against the producer.

    Amid increasing violent anti-US protests in response to the movie in the Middle East, MUI deputy chairman Amidhan said Muslims should stay cool-headed and advised against conducting rallies to protest it.

    “Don’t overreact,” Amidhan said in Jakarta on Friday, as quoted by the Indonesian news portal tempo.co, adding that Muslims should not be affected by the movie.

    But he added that the MUI nevertheless condemned the movie and demanded that legal action be taken against the producer.

    Of course Pakistan, Egypt (until recently), Syria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Jordan all have some common attributes which foster radical Islamic violence. Namely poor living conditions and high unemployment and despair, authoritarian regimes and persecution propped up by the West and a high sense of injustice, coupled with the black and white fundamentalist world view predispose some fundamentalist Muslims to engage in violence.

    From the Michigan Institute Study into Human Rights

    Political Islam in the Middle East

    A review of the reasons why terrorism (or violence) occurs shows that they can be grouped into the following broad categories: psychological explanations (pathology, deprivation), societal explanations (economy, governance) and state explanations (sponsorship, hegemony, failed states) (Lia and Skjølberg 2000). It might seem that the most common explanations of so-called “Islamic terrorism” (in itself a misnomer) often combine these three explanations. In short, it is argued fundamentalist beliefs make adherents psychologically predisposed to use violence and surrender their lives (Taylor and Horgan 2001), that abysmal social conditions and frustration promote extremism (Andoni 1997), and that authoritarianism and secularism as well as political persecution have spurred a violent backlash from Islamist movements. We find here a contradiction between explanations which consider the use of violence a result of internalizing Islamist beliefs and those that locate them in the externalizing socio-political conditions (Langohr 2001: p. 591):

    The question of whether to resort to violence to achieve its goals is inherent in the Islamist project (that what some Islamists understand as a divine mandate to implement shari‘a ultimately sanctions the use of force against dissenters) or contingent (that the violent exclusion of Islamists from the political arena has driven them to arms, best expressed by François Burgat’s contention that any Western political party could be turned in to the Armed Islamic Group in weeks if subjected to the same repression and Islamists had endured) looms large in this debate.

    http://bora.cmi.no/dspace/bitstream/10202/166/1/R2003-03.pdf

  49. @Bones

    “Of course Roundhouse keeps sprouting the extremes of Islam to justify his prejudice.”

    Because you have never done this in your diatribes against Christians, have you?

  50. So what are Christians doing to rein in their extremists

    Christian Right’s Emerging Deadly Worldview: Kill Muslims to Purify the Earth

    Christian extremists are preaching a war against tolerance to target and persecute all Muslims, including the 6 million who live in the U.S.

    Walid Shoebat, Kamal Saleem and Zachariah Anani are the three stooges of the Christian right. These self-described former Muslim terrorists are regularly trotted out — a few days ago they were at the Air Force Academy — to spew racist filth about Islam on behalf of groups such as Focus on the Family . It is a clever tactic. Curly, Larry and Mo, who all say they are born-again Christians, engage in hate speech and assure us it comes from personal experience. They tell their audiences that the only way to deal with one-fifth of the world’s population is by converting or eradicating all Muslims. Their cant is broadcast regularly on Fox News, including the Bill O’Reilly and Neil Cavuto shows, as well as on numerous Christian radio and television programs. Shoebat, who has written a book called Why We Want to Kill You , promises in his lectures to explain the numerous similarities between radical Muslims and the Nazis, how “Muslim terrorists” invaded America 30 years ago and how “perseverance, recruitment and hate” have fueled attacks by Muslims.

    These men are frauds, but this is not the point. They are part of a dark and frightening war by the Christian right against tolerance that, in the moment of another catastrophic terrorist attack on American soil, would make it acceptable to target and persecute all Muslims, including the some 6 million Muslims who live in the United States. These men stoke these irrational fears. They defend the perpetual war unleashed by the Bush administration and championed by Sen. John McCain. McCain frequently reminds listeners that “the greatest danger facing the world is Islamic terrorism,” as does Mike Huckabee , who says that “Islamofascism” is “the greatest threat this country [has] ever faced.” George W. Bush has, in the same vein, assured Americans that terrorists hate us for our freedoms, not, of course, for anything we have done. Bush described the “war on terror” as a war against totalitarian Islamofascism while the Israeli air force was dropping tens of thousands of pounds of iron fragmentation bombs up and down Lebanon, an air campaign that killed 1,300 Lebanese civilians.

    The three men tell lurid tales of being recruited as children into Palestinian terrorist organizations, murdering hundreds of civilians and blowing up a bank in Israel. Saleem says that as a child he infiltrated Israel to plant bombs via a network of tunnels underneath the Golan Heights, although no incident of this type was ever reported in Israel. He claims he is descended from the “grand wazir” of Islam, a title and a position that do not exist in the Arab world. They assure audiences that the Palestinians are interested not in a peaceful two-state solution but rather the destruction of Israel, the murder of all Jews and the death of America. Shoebat claims he first came to the United States as part of an extremist “sleeper cell.”

    “These three jokers are as much former Islamic terrorists as ‘Star Trek’s’ Capt. James T. Kirk was a real Starship captain,” said Mikey Weinstein, the head of the watchdog group The Military Religious Freedom Foundation . The group has challenged Christian proselytizing in the military and denounced the visit by the men to the Air Force Academy.

    The speakers include in their talks the superior virtues of Christianity. Saleem, for example, says his world “turned upside down when he was seriously injured in an automobile accident.”

    “A Christian man tended to Kamal at the accident scene, making sure he got the medical treatment he needed,” his Web site says. “Kamal’s orthopedic surgeon and physical therapist were also Christian men whom over a period of several months ministered the unconditional love of Jesus Christ to him as he recovered. The love and sacrificial giving of these men caused Kamal to cry out to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob acknowledging his need for the Savior. Kamal has since become a man on a new mission, as an ambassador for the one true and living God, the great I Am, Jehovah God of the Bible.”

    This creeping Christian chauvinism has infected our political and social discourse. It was behind the rumor that Barack Obama was a Muslim. Obama reassured followers that he was a Christian. It apparently did not occur to him, or his questioners, that the proper answer is that there is nothing wrong with being a Muslim, that persons of great moral probity and courage arise in all cultures and all religions, including Islam. Christians have no exclusive lock on virtue. But this kind of understanding often provokes indignant rage.

    The public denigration of Islam, and by implication all religious belief systems outside Christianity, is part of the triumphalism that has distorted the country since the 9/11 attacks. It makes dialogue with those outside our “Christian” culture impossible. It implicitly condemns all who do not think as we think and believe as we believe as, at best, inferior and usually morally depraved. It blinds us to our own failings. It makes self-reflection and self-criticism a form of treason. It reduces the world to a cartoonish vision of us and them, good and evil. It turns us into children with bombs.

    These three con artists are not the problem. There is enough scum out there to take their place. Rather, they offer a window into a worldview that is destroying the United States. It has corrupted the Republican Party. It has colored the news media. It has entered into the everyday cliches we use to explain ourselves to ourselves. It is ignorant and racist, but it is also deadly. It grossly perverts the Christian religion. It asks us to kill to purify the Earth. It leaves us threatened not only by the terrorists who may come from abroad but the ones who are rising from within our midst.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/76686/christian_right's_emerging_deadly_worldview%3A_kill_muslims_to_purify_the_earth

  51. @Bones

    “asked Muslims here not to be provoked by the anti-Islam movie “Innocence of Muslims,” and “Muslims should stay cool-headed and advised against conducting rallies to protest it. Don’t overreact,”

    Can’t you see that the fact that the authorities have to ask Muslims not to get violent speaks volumes about them and their twisted mindsets? Actually, I can answer my own question – no you can’t see it. Or rather, you won’t see it.

  52. @Bones

    “spew racist filth about Islam”

    Islam is a religion, not a race. The author is ignorant, and his invective laced diatribe does nothing but prove him to be a misguided and hate-filled apologist. And the fact that you post this shows that you are just as ignorant.

  53. Because you have never done this in your diatribes against Christians, have you?

    Yes we can fill this thread with quotes from nutbags from both religions.

    I’m up for it.

    Do you want to keep going?

  54. @Bones

    “Do you want to keep going?”

    Sure, why not? Otherwise I’d just have to go outside and mow the lawns, so anything to avoid that is fine with me

  55. @Bones

    “Yeah those three frauds…”

    Frauds are they? There is no proof in the article that they are frauds. The author simply states it as fact because he wishes it were so, to fit in with his own views. And he has sucked you in. That is ignorance on your part.

  56. So do I

    You’d love it here.

    You will Not see this news on any other news media! That is why we are your News Rescue!

    September 29th, 2011

    NewsRescue- Jos, is one of the greatest epicenters of Muslim-Christian hate and intolerance in Nigeria. Roughly torn between Muslims and Christians, it is at the epicenter of sectarian violence.

    North Nigeria as a whole is stricken with some of the highest poverty levels in the world. With a 70-89% poverty level, this region compares with countries like Somalia, Eritrea and Bangladesh, while in contrast, South Nigeria, responsible for 90% of Nigeria’s bank deposits and loans, compares economically to countries like China and Korea. Due to the poverty prevalence figures, Nigeria’s former Central bank governor, Professor Soludo rightly concluded that the nation’s “very high level of poverty is essentially a Northern Phenomenon”

    Birom Christian youth burn cars and eat Muslims {NaijaPals}
    It is well known that poverty, ignorance and disease are a dangerous triad. This deadly ignorance was again demonstrated on the 28th of August 2011, as Birom (Berom) Christians were recorded in these videos, eating Muslims they had killed and roasted.

    The event occurred when Christians surrounded Muslims observing their Eid annual holy devotion. Due to a miscommunication with the police, there was no usual requested security at the venue, a necessity in polar Jos. Christian youth surrounded the praying Muslims, burned their cars, pelted them and then killed, roasted and ate some.

    Zainab Usman, translating the video said:

    At a point as the flesh is being roasted, someone says in Hausa language “…ni zuciyan na ke so…” meaning: “I want the heart”, while another person goes further to ask “…ka sa gishiri?” meaning: “…did you put some salt”?

    The large crowd’s visible complicity and excitement as they eagerly anticipate their cannibalistic feast, marks a descent in our collective sense of humanity in Nigeria. What I find most ironic is that these butchers and party are communicating in Hausa language, the language of their slain “enemy” or rather, their “meal” and not their own native berom language. The presence of a police vehicle in the area where the “feasting” and cannibalism on slaughtered Muslims is taking place raises questions. The police should be protecting people, maintaining law and order and stopping any criminal activity from taking place, shouldn’t they? Of course as the video shows, this is not the case.

    http://newsrescue.com/birom-christians-eat-roasted-flesh-of-muslims-they-killed-in-jos-nigeria/#axzz279o8Ch1F

  57. @Bones

    I worry for you. The fact that you cannot see that that website is an Islamic propaganda site shows me how deluded and blind to the truth you really are

  58. There is no proof in the article that they are frauds.

    Walid Shoebat: ‘Ex-terrorist’ exposed as fraud

    Shoebat’s claim to have bombed Bank Leumi in Bethlehem is rejected by members of his family who still live in the area, and Bank Leumi says it has no record of such an attack ever taking place.
    His relatives, members of the Shoebat family, are mystified by the notion of “Walid Shoebat” being an assumed name. And the Walid Shoebat Foundation’s working process is less than transparent, with Shoebat’s claim that it is registered as a charity in the state of Pennsylvania being denied by the Pennsylvania State Attorney’s Office.

    From CNN

    That billing helps him land speaking engagements like a May event in Rapid City — a forum put on by the state Office of Homeland Security, which paid Shoebat $5,000 for the appearance. He’s a darling on the church and university lecture circuit, with his speeches, books and video sales bringing in $500,000-plus in 2009, according to tax records.

    “Being an ex-terrorist myself is to understand the mindset of a terrorist,” Shoebat told CNN’s “Anderson Cooper 360.”

    But CNN reporters in the United States, Israel and the Palestinian territories found no evidence that would support that biography. Neither Shoebat nor his business partner provided any proof of Shoebat’s involvement in terrorism, despite repeated requests.

    Back in his hometown of Beit Sahour, outside Bethlehem, relatives say they can’t understand how Shoebat could turn so roundly on his family and his faith.

    “I have never heard anything about Walid being a mujahedeen or a terrorist,” said Daood Shoebat, who says he is Walid Shoebat’s fourth cousin. “He claims this for his own personal reasons.”

    CNN’s Jerusalem bureau went to great lengths trying to verify Shoebat’s story. The Tel Aviv headquarters of Bank Leumi had no record of a firebombing at its now-demolished Bethlehem branch. Israeli police had no record of the bombing, and the prison where Shoebat says he was held “for a few weeks” for inciting anti-Israel demonstrations says it has no record of him being incarcerated there either.

    Shoebat says he was never charged because he was a U.S. citizen.

    “I was born by an American mother,” he said. “The other conspirators in the act ended up in jail. I ended up released.”

    http://articles.cnn.com/2011-07-11/us/terrorism.expert_1_walid-shoebat-israeli-police-homeland-security?_s=PM:US

  59. Kamal Saleem’s ‘Ex-terrorist’ Story Does Not Add Up

    Kamal Saleem is one of a number of Middle Eastern faces, who is currently profiting off of the cottage industry of Islamophobia with his “ex-terrorist” turned holy roller road show.
    Saleem claims to be from a Lebanese Sunni Muslim family, which is a descendant of the “Grand Wazir of Islam,” and that he was a terrorist with the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO). Furthermore, Saleem states that his terrorism affiliation with the PLO inspired by Islam and the Muslim Brotherhood ended after receiving the “Holy Ghost” and accepting Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) in his life. Saleem’s story like his other wannabe “ex-terrorist” comrades, however, just does not add up.

    For starters as author Chris Hedges points out, there is no such title as the “Grand Wazir of Islam.” Saleem’s “Grand Wazir” lineage claim is also bizarre due to the fact that the adjective “grand” would not be used in front of the term wazir (advisor) to begin with. Even the title “Grand Wazir” was not bestowed upon Aaron (Peace Be Upon Him), who was a prophet and the wazir of Moses (Peace Be Upon Him) according to the Qur’an!

    It’s also very interesting that Saleem claims to have been a terrorist inspired by Islam as a member of the secular, Marxist influenced PLO, whose long time executive committee member and long time spokeswoman, Hanan Ashrawi, was a Christian. Saleem wants us to believe that Ashrawi, George Habash and the countless others from Christian backgrounds in the secular PLO were also inspired by Islam as he claims was his “terrorist” motive in dealing with the pesky problem of illegal Israeli occupation.

    Furthermore the Muslim Brotherhood, who Saleem claims he had dual affiliation with, was averse to the secular, Marxist leaning PLO during the time that he claimed to have been a member. In fact, it is also well known that the Muslim Brotherhood inspired Hamas was supported by Israel to be an “Islamist” counter to the secular PLO/Fatah. To this day, Hamas and the PLO have been at odds with each other to the point of killing each other in the streets of Palestine in recent years. Hence, Saleem’s claim of being an “Islamist” terrorist in the PLO while having felicity to the Muslim Brotherhood is utterly preposterous.

    The reality is that Saleem has made a nice career for himself collecting honorariums, writing a book and getting exposure from the hyper-Islamophobic Aramaic Broadcasting Network (ABN) since the tragedy of 9/11. If he were indeed an “ex-terrorist,” I’m sure that Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) would have deported him by now for fraud because people with terrorism ties cannot get entry visas much less obtain American citizenship. And the FBI does not simply let “ex-terrorists” walk the streets because they claim to have received the “Holy Ghost” without detaining them for questioning. Changing idelogies does not absolve persons under American law from terrorism ties that they admit to.

    The unfortunate part about Saleem’s bogus career is not his snake oil peddling but that there are so many individuals who do not care about the truth and lack intellectual honest that provide him a platform.

    http://dawudwalid.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/kamal-saleems-ex-terrorist-story-does-not-add-up/

  60. Doubt cast on Anani’s terrorist claims
    Jihad adviser says story of holy war in Lebanon rings false

    Zachariah Anani, a self-proclaimed former terrorist who now warns against Islam’s so-called teachings of terror against Canada and the West, is imagining his past exploits as a mass murderer, according to a top jihad expert.

    Tom Quiggin, Canada’s only court-qualified expert on global jihadism and a former RCMP intelligence and national security expert, said Anani’s tales of terror and murder just don’t jibe with the time and place he claims to have been killing.

    “Mr. Anani’s not an individual who rates the slightest degree of credibility, based on the stories that he has told,” said Quiggin, also a Senior Fellow at the Centre of Excellence for National Security in Singapore.

    “To have Mr. Anani described as a terrorist grants an impact to his words that simply is not rated.

    “Whatever else he may have been, he was not a Muslim terrorist in Lebanon in the early 1970s.

    “He may have been a low-level militant, radical, street fighter or insurgent, but he was not a terrorist of any description based on his stories.”

    Anani, 49, touched off a controversy last week when he gave an anti-Islamic lecture at Campbell Baptist Church called The Deadly Threat of Islam. He says Islamic doctrine teaches the worship of a god who “strikes with terror” and allows no prisoners in the battle against Christians and Jews.

    Anani, now an evangelical Christian, claims to be an expert on the topic because he killed 223 people in Allah’s name, “two-thirds of them by daggers.” He even claims to have killed a man for waking him up at 3 a.m. to pray.

    Anani, born in Lebanon, said he joined a militant Muslim group in the early 1970s at age 13, and made his first kill shortly after.

    “I was trained to fight and kill Jews, and to hate Christians and Americans,” Anani has said in varying versions of his story.

    He said he was soon promoted to troop leader and formed his own regiment, but later met a Christian missionary and converted.

    Anani said he was persecuted for his conversion — even his dad hired assassins to kill him.

    He said he was soon promoted to troop leader and formed his own regiment, but later met a Christian missionary and converted.

    Anani said he was persecuted for his conversion — even his dad hired assassins to kill him — and he was technically dead for seven minutes after narrowly escaping a beheading. He fled to the West and moved to Windsor about 10 years ago. His wife and three daughters joined him three years later.

    Even in Canada, Anani said he’s been physically attacked, and his house and car have been burned in Windsor for speaking out against Islam.

    POLICE LACK RECORDS

    Staff. Sgt. Ed McNorton said Windsor police don’t have a record of physical attacks against Anani, and his house wasn’t burned.

    McNorton said someone did torch his car, but it wasn’t for the reasons Anani has claimed.

    “There is nothing in the report we have to indicate it was in retaliation to his religious beliefs,” said McNorton.

    Anani’s bio also states he lectured at Princeton University. Cass Cliatt, Princeton’s media relations manager, said that never happened. She said Anani was scheduled to lecture there in late 2005 with the Walid Shoebat Foundation. But the event was cancelled and the foundation held a news conference at a nearby hotel.

    Anani has refused several requests from The Star to revisit his past in detail.

    Following a sermon Thursday night from Campbell Baptist Church Pastor Donald McKay — Anani was scheduled to speak but his lecture was cancelled — he again refused to answer questions.

    “I’ve already spoken enough about that,” he said. “There is no need to repeat that, especially when there is people waiting to see me. So make it quick please…. If there are no more essential questions, please, let’s wrap it up.”

    But Quiggin said there are some important details in Anani’s story that don’t add up.

    “It appears to be that Mr. Anani is nothing more than an extremist who is trying to create an imaginative history from a contemporary set of fears and stories,” said Quiggin. “Mr. Anani’s myths that he has built up around himself lack validity on a number of key points.”

    One key point, he said, is Anani’s claim that he killed 223 people.

    FIGHTING BEGAN IN 1975

    Anani has said he’s 49 years old, which would mean he was born in 1957 or 1958, said Quiggin. If he joined his first militant group when he was 13, it would have been in 1970 or 1971. But the fighting in Lebanon did not begin in earnest until 1975, Quiggin said.

    “His story of having made kills shortly after he joined and having made 223 kills overall is preposterous, given the lack of fighting during most of the time period he claims to have been a fighter,” Quiggin said. “He also states he left Lebanon to go to Al-Azhar University at the age of 18, which would mean he went to Egypt in 1976. In other words, according to himself, he left Lebanon within a year of when the fighting actually started.”

    He also pointed to a story on WorldNetDaily in which Walid Shoebat, another ex-terrorist and friend of Anani, also claims to have killed 223 people, two-thirds of them with daggers.

    “What a coincidence,” Quiggin said.

    Quiggin said Anani’s description of himself as a Muslim terrorist also “defies logic” based on the time frame.

    “Most the groups involved in the fighting in Lebanon were secular and tended to be extreme leftists or Marxists,” he said.

    Quiggin said religious-based terrorism as part of the warring in Lebanon didn’t begin until after 1979, following the revolution in Iran, the Soviet attack on Afghanistan and the attack on the Grand Mosque in Mecca by Sunni Muslim extremists.

    Anani’s claim to have survived a beheading attempt is also questionable, said Quiggin.

    “This was not a common practice in Lebanon at any time and again it appears as though he is attempting to build up his past mythology by playing on current Iraqi-based fears,” Quiggin said.

    YOUTH OF ALI

    He also questioned Anani’s assertion that the militant group he killed with was called the Youth of Ali, named after the prophet Muhammad’s cousin.

    Quiggin said a group called Youth of Ali wasn’t even known to have been in existence during the civil war period in Lebanon that Anani is talking about.

    “This story makes less sense as it goes along,” said Quiggin.

    That is one detail Anani was willing to discuss Thursday, when he revised his story to say the group wasn’t named after the prophet’s relative.

    “Actually, Ali was the top-notch guy in the area,” said Anani.

    “That’s why they called it that. The Youth of Ali is the wrong word. You could say the Boys of Ali. That means the guy who was leading the group in the area.”

    He said the group no longer exists.

    “They were a small fragment,” said Anani. “It’s a more minor group. It was a long time ago. ”

    twilhelm@thestar.canwest.com or 519-255-5777, ext. 642

    THREAT DOUBTED

    Michael Bell, a former Canadian ambassador to Israel, Egypt and Jordan, doesn’t buy Zachariah Anani’s claim that Muslims pose a risk to Canadian society. He said new groups were often looked on with suspicion in Canadian history.

    “We have to take a long run perspective on this and not be spooked,” Bell said. “For Muslims in Canada, this is not a primary preoccupation. They’re a group of people looking for a place within Canadian society. I don’t agree Islam in Canada is an overwhelmingly united force bent on very specific and unacceptable goals.”

    http://www2.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=4a479502-4490-408e-bdb5-f2638619a62c

  61. @Bones

    Hmm, some interviews with Shoebat’s Muslim relatives and an article on a Muslim man’s blog. Wow, absolute proof! Thanks for that Bones. I now see how in error I was.

  62. There you go Roundhouse.

    Seems a lucrative business being an ex-Muslim terrorist in the US. No shortage of media and churches willing to soak up their bigoted bs.

    And why aren’t these ‘killers’ being prosecuted for terrorism crimes?

  63. Oh and the third of the three musketeers

    Doubt cast on Anani’s terrorist claims
    Jihad adviser says story of holy war in Lebanon rings false

    Zachariah Anani, a self-proclaimed former terrorist who now warns against Islam’s so-called teachings of terror against Canada and the West, is imagining his past exploits as a mass murderer, according to a top jihad expert.

    Tom Quiggin, Canada’s only court-qualified expert on global jihadism and a former RCMP intelligence and national security expert, said Anani’s tales of terror and murder just don’t jibe with the time and place he claims to have been killing.

    “Mr. Anani’s not an individual who rates the slightest degree of credibility, based on the stories that he has told,” said Quiggin, also a Senior Fellow at the Centre of Excellence for National Security in Singapore.

    “To have Mr. Anani described as a terrorist grants an impact to his words that simply is not rated.

    “Whatever else he may have been, he was not a Muslim terrorist in Lebanon in the early 1970s.

    “He may have been a low-level militant, radical, street fighter or insurgent, but he was not a terrorist of any description based on his stories.”

    Anani, 49, touched off a controversy last week when he gave an anti-Islamic lecture at Campbell Baptist Church called The Deadly Threat of Islam. He says Islamic doctrine teaches the worship of a god who “strikes with terror” and allows no prisoners in the battle against Christians and Jews.

    Anani, now an evangelical Christian, claims to be an expert on the topic because he killed 223 people in Allah’s name, “two-thirds of them by daggers.” He even claims to have killed a man for waking him up at 3 a.m. to pray.

    Anani, born in Lebanon, said he joined a militant Muslim group in the early 1970s at age 13, and made his first kill shortly after.

    “I was trained to fight and kill Jews, and to hate Christians and Americans,” Anani has said in varying versions of his story.

    He said he was soon promoted to troop leader and formed his own regiment, but later met a Christian missionary and converted.

    Anani said he was persecuted for his conversion — even his dad hired assassins to kill him.

    He said he was soon promoted to troop leader and formed his own regiment, but later met a Christian missionary and converted.

    Anani said he was persecuted for his conversion — even his dad hired assassins to kill him — and he was technically dead for seven minutes after narrowly escaping a beheading. He fled to the West and moved to Windsor about 10 years ago. His wife and three daughters joined him three years later.

    Even in Canada, Anani said he’s been physically attacked, and his house and car have been burned in Windsor for speaking out against Islam.

    POLICE LACK RECORDS

    Staff. Sgt. Ed McNorton said Windsor police don’t have a record of physical attacks against Anani, and his house wasn’t burned.

    McNorton said someone did torch his car, but it wasn’t for the reasons Anani has claimed.

    “There is nothing in the report we have to indicate it was in retaliation to his religious beliefs,” said McNorton.

    Anani’s bio also states he lectured at Princeton University. Cass Cliatt, Princeton’s media relations manager, said that never happened. She said Anani was scheduled to lecture there in late 2005 with the Walid Shoebat Foundation. But the event was cancelled and the foundation held a news conference at a nearby hotel.

    Anani has refused several requests from The Star to revisit his past in detail.

    Following a sermon Thursday night from Campbell Baptist Church Pastor Donald McKay — Anani was scheduled to speak but his lecture was cancelled — he again refused to answer questions.

    “I’ve already spoken enough about that,” he said. “There is no need to repeat that, especially when there is people waiting to see me. So make it quick please…. If there are no more essential questions, please, let’s wrap it up.”

    But Quiggin said there are some important details in Anani’s story that don’t add up.

    “It appears to be that Mr. Anani is nothing more than an extremist who is trying to create an imaginative history from a contemporary set of fears and stories,” said Quiggin. “Mr. Anani’s myths that he has built up around himself lack validity on a number of key points.”

    One key point, he said, is Anani’s claim that he killed 223 people.

    FIGHTING BEGAN IN 1975

    Anani has said he’s 49 years old, which would mean he was born in 1957 or 1958, said Quiggin. If he joined his first militant group when he was 13, it would have been in 1970 or 1971. But the fighting in Lebanon did not begin in earnest until 1975, Quiggin said.

    “His story of having made kills shortly after he joined and having made 223 kills overall is preposterous, given the lack of fighting during most of the time period he claims to have been a fighter,” Quiggin said. “He also states he left Lebanon to go to Al-Azhar University at the age of 18, which would mean he went to Egypt in 1976. In other words, according to himself, he left Lebanon within a year of when the fighting actually started.”

    He also pointed to a story on WorldNetDaily in which Walid Shoebat, another ex-terrorist and friend of Anani, also claims to have killed 223 people, two-thirds of them with daggers.

    “What a coincidence,” Quiggin said.

    Quiggin said Anani’s description of himself as a Muslim terrorist also “defies logic” based on the time frame.

    “Most the groups involved in the fighting in Lebanon were secular and tended to be extreme leftists or Marxists,” he said.

    Quiggin said religious-based terrorism as part of the warring in Lebanon didn’t begin until after 1979, following the revolution in Iran, the Soviet attack on Afghanistan and the attack on the Grand Mosque in Mecca by Sunni Muslim extremists.

    Anani’s claim to have survived a beheading attempt is also questionable, said Quiggin.

    “This was not a common practice in Lebanon at any time and again it appears as though he is attempting to build up his past mythology by playing on current Iraqi-based fears,” Quiggin said.

    YOUTH OF ALI

    He also questioned Anani’s assertion that the militant group he killed with was called the Youth of Ali, named after the prophet Muhammad’s cousin.

    Quiggin said a group called Youth of Ali wasn’t even known to have been in existence during the civil war period in Lebanon that Anani is talking about.

    “This story makes less sense as it goes along,” said Quiggin.

    That is one detail Anani was willing to discuss Thursday, when he revised his story to say the group wasn’t named after the prophet’s relative.

    “Actually, Ali was the top-notch guy in the area,” said Anani.

    “That’s why they called it that. The Youth of Ali is the wrong word. You could say the Boys of Ali. That means the guy who was leading the group in the area.”

    He said the group no longer exists.

    “They were a small fragment,” said Anani. “It’s a more minor group. It was a long time ago. ”

    http://www2.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=4a479502-4490-408e-bdb5-f2638619a62c

  64. Hmm, some interviews with Shoebat’s Muslim relatives and an article on a Muslim man’s blog. Wow, absolute proof! Thanks for that Bones. I now see how in error I was.

    Bahaha.

    Sucked you in.

    I bet you bought their books. Hahahaha

    You really are blind

    Hang on

    The Israelis are in cahouts with Islamic terrorists as well as they have no record of any of these supposed events.

    Hahahaha

    Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story hey Roundhouse.

    Look up Grand Wazir of Islam

    See how you go.

    Bahahahaha.

  65. I worry for you. The fact that you cannot see that that website is an Islamic propaganda site shows me how deluded and blind to the truth you really are

    It’s actually a BBC report on Nigeria and the tit for tat killing and bombing of Muslims and Christians.

    This is from the BBC

    BBC Transcript is below

    Rob: This is the christian community here, and there is a very large group of people gathered….that is the army firing in the air, stones are being thrown, rocks are being thrown. Crowd is now dispersing rapidly. Rob: What about this body here, who is this body here?

    Christian 1.Yah, This is Muslim body….people that brought the bomb?
    Rob: So you are saying this body which is being burned is People that brought the bomb?
    Christian 1: Yah, yah, that is the body.
    Rob: But there is no legs or arm or head…
    Christian 1: We are chopping the meat, we are chopping the meat!
    Christian Lady: some eat
    Christian 2:And some…eat it

    Christian Lady: And some of it eat
    Christian 1: We eat it
    Christian 3: We eat the meat!

    Rob: Some of the people here eat it?
    Christian 1: Yes
    Christian 2: Really, really!
    Rob: But why will you do that, why will you eat the meat

    Christian 1: Why will we not chop the meat?
    Christian 1: We need to fight them
    Christian 2: Why won’t we chop it
    Christian 3: That’s why we chop it.
    Rob: There is a man now with a part of the body on a stake, he raised it up. Will there be peace now?
    ….Christians:…..the Hausa doesn’t want peace…we want the soldier to go, we need peace, Rob: but the soldiers protect…. Christians: the soldiers should go let the battle be once and forever…..

    Rob: Reports of isolated cases like this of Christian youth burning and eating the flesh of their enemies emerged in in Jos 3 months ago. Some residents say it is a means of humiliating opponents. Others say it is a way of binding together those involved in the violence. Whatever the case it gives you some idea of the extremes of the violence here. The police say they weren’t sure who the target of the bomb attack. What is sure is if it wasn’t for the heavy presence of the Nigerian army, the violence will be much worse here.

    Finally he goes to a noble community in Jos where Muslims and Christians live in peace, cooperate and protect each other, and they explain that the prevalence of violence and rioting in other areas is likely politically motivated by politicians who live in secure, rich areas and set up these ignorance and poverty clashes. They said it may be Christians pretending to be Muslims bombing Christians and likewise Muslims pretending to be Christians bombing Muslims, all as agents of wicked politicians, acting under the umbrella of religion and taking advantage of the poverty in the region.. …The politicians push out opponents in their area for instance with these attacks, so they can win elections.

    Audio recording below

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00fvldf

  66. What is it with right wing Christians falling for abject liars and deceivers. Are you too lazy to do any research?

    OK, so a Muslim can’t nail Kamal Saleem

    Try this instead

    Self-declared ‘former terrorist’ speaks at Agema rally

    His story raises doubts, questions

    The appearance of a man who claims to be a reformed terrorist at a rally against illegal immigration at the Capitol building in Lansing is raising questions both about the accuracy of his story and the propriety of his invitation to speak.

    Kamal Saleem of Berkley spoke at the rally and testified before the House Commerce Committee supporting legislation introduced by Rep. Dave Agema (R-Grandville) that would require contractors for the state and temporary agencies to use E-Verify, a federal system to verify a person’s immigration status.

    E-Verify is a federal program that has been found to return false denials, resulting in people losing jobs. The legislation was tabled by the Commerce Committee for a second time.

    “I came to the United States of America not to love you all. I came to be — exactly — to destroy this country as a terrorist. We crossed the Canadian border. We brought weapon caches right through cities, through Windsor,” Saleem told attendees. “This is what is all happening by allowing illegals in here to come through our borders and become a part of our country. They can become legal terrorists in your hometown to kill your children, and your grandchildren and your future as we know it.”

    Saleem claims that he was a member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization as well as the Muslim Brotherhood when he came to the U.S. in 1979 “for the first time.” He said the E-Verify system was important to prevent future terror attacks on American soil.

    “This (E-Verify) will not allow people like me to come to this country to destroy it and would allow the American people to legally work and have their freedom in this country,” he said.

    For Calvin College history professor Douglas Howard, there is much to doubt about the claim to have been a former terrorist. Howard researched Saleem’s background in 2007 when the Calvin College Republican Club invited him to present at the conservative Christian college. Howard said that as an expert in Middle East history, his department tasked him with reviewing Saleem’s credentials and advising the department on whether or not it should co-sponsor the event.

    “I concluded this person is a fraud,” Howard says.

    Howard tried to get the appearance canceled but it was too late in the process.

    In a 2010 Books and Culture: A Christian Review article about Saleem’s book “The Blood of the Lambs,” Howard explains how he first came to question Saleem’s story.

    A look at his website told me immediately that he was not who he said he was. The signature of his deception was his statement that “in my family was the Grand Wazir of Islam.” The term is ridiculous, a spurious title meant to mislead the innocent with an aura of authority.

    In the conclusion of that article — in which he calls Saleem a fraud and deconstructs errors in his book — Howard writes of Saleem’s book:

    “It is insulting to be told that we have to look down the barrel of a gun to see life’s inner meaning, or that only a killer can really understand Islam. Authentic experience comes when we see a man or a woman before we see a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew; when we hear a human voice before we hear ‘a thick Middle Eastern accent’; when the person next to us on the plane is a young man—with a father and a mother waiting for him—before he is a Nigerian or an American. Anything else leads down the road toward extremism. Although Kamal Saleem has forsaken much, he has evidently not yet forsaken that.”

    Howard says that while he was doing research on Saleem, he called a former employer. He did not name the employer during the interview with Michigan Messenger, however, he identifies the employer as Focus on the Family in Books and Culture review.

    “He claimed to have been a former football player, a placekicker for Barry Switzer (former coach of the University of Oklahoma football program) and claimed that he won a game in the last three seconds with a field goal,” Howard recalled Focus on the Family staff telling him. The problem? No such game existed and while Saleem makes a big deal about hiding his real name, Focus on the Family staff referred to him by his given name — allowing Howard to check Oklahoma rosters.

    The Military Religious Freedom Foundation reported in 2008 on Saleem’s history:

    Kamal Saleem, whose real name is Khodor Shami, worked for Pat Robertson’s Christian Broadcasting Network for sixteen years, and was hired by Focus on the Family in 2003. In 2006, he launched Koome Ministries, whose mission is to “expose the true agenda of [Muslims] who would deceive our nation and the free nations of the world… America must wake-up and set a continued Christian agenda of Liberty and Truth as a standard to follow throughout the free world.”

    Focus on the Family staff expressed discomfort with Saleem, Howard said, particularly with his claims of Christian conversion. Saleem alleges that he was in a near fatal car wreck, but Christians cared for him, taking him into their home and provided for him while he healed. That he says lead to his conversion. In an interview with Pat Robertson 700 Club TV show, Saleem says he called out for Allah to answer him, and when he didn’t he decided to kill himself for questioning his faith. At that moment, Saleem claims, the Christian God came to him. Robertson is transfixed by this tale.

    Saleem has never identified what city or state this near fatal accident occurred in, nor has he ever identified the Christian doctor who allegedly gave him refuge and helped him pay his bills while he was recovering.

    The history professor says that Saleem’s claim on Tuesday to have smuggled weapons into the U.S. is new. “It sounds like he is upping the ante,” Howard said.

    The story Saleem tells is bewitching, Howard admits.

    “It preys on people’s lack of information and their worries and their fears and their wanting to find a way to justify their own attitudes toward Islam and Middle East policy,” Howard says. “There’s a market out there that wants Kamal Saleem’s story to be true.”

    And Saleem is not alone in this new, post 9-11 market. He has appeared with another well known former terrorist, Walid Shoebat. Shoebat was recently the subject of an investigation by CNN’s Anderson Cooper 360 show. That investigation raised questions about the veracity of Shoebat’s claims to being a former terrorist.

    Boyd, the DOJ National Security spokesman, declined to discuss the concerns about Saleem’s accuracy.

    “Further, we have no comment on whether Mr. Saleem’s other statements are accurate or not,” he said.

    Maria Elena Garcia Upson, spokesperson for the Citizenship and Immigration Services, would not comment on Saleem’s case specifically, citing privacy rules. But she did comment in general about alleged ex-terrorists receiving American citizenship.

    “Well obviously it would be a concern in general, but we are not the enforcement arm, you will have to talk to Immigration and Customs Enforcement,” Upson said.

    An ICE spokesperson did not return inquires by press time.

    Others are arguing that if Saleem’s story is true, that raises even more questions both about his citizenship and his appearance at the rally.

    “If Representative Agema recruited as a speaker an admitted terrorist who says he brought weapons into the United States my first question is why this guy isn’t in custody or in jail? And why was Mr. Saleem allowed to become a United States citizen?” asks David Holtz, executive director of Progress Michigan. “In trying to make a point about illegal immigration, Dave Agema instead makes you question his judgment and sanity. Perhaps the FBI should be invited to future Agema events since he may decide he needs more terrorists to deliver his talking points.”

    State Rep. Rashida Talib (D-Detroit) went even further.

    “I am unforgiving for any terrorist,” Talib said in exclusive interview with Michigan Messenger. “He should be deported for that. And you can quote me on that.”

    Agema defends Saleem.

    “What happened with Kamal is totally different,” Agema says of the reformed terrorist. Agema says following his conversion to Christianity, Saleem helped the federal government track down terror cells in the U.S., a claim that could not be verified.

    “As a general rule, the Justice Department does not publicly comment on whether or not someone has provided assistance to the U.S. government in counter-terrorism operations,” said Dean Boyd, spokesman for the National Security Division of the U.S. Department of Justice, when asked what role, if any, Saleem had played in uncovering terror plots in the U.S.

    Howard also called Agema out over Saleem’s appearance and testimony.

    “It is really unfortunate that Rep. Agema has decided to align himself with this kind of cynical opportunism,” he said. “That is unbelievable that he could testify before a House committee.”

    http://michiganmessenger.com/52434/self-declared-former-terrorist-speaks-at-agema-rally

    Kamal Saleem is a sensationalist nutbag spreading hate and fear eg

    Kamal Saleem Uncovers Plot to Use Roe v. Wade to Bring in Sharia Law

    Kamal Saleem tells Values Voter Summit that Clinton plans to ‘Shut Down’ Churches, College Professors work with Terrorists

    Kamal Saleem Suggests Obama is a Muslim, Imposing Islamic ‘Fascist Religion’

    Kamal Saleem Says U.S. Generals Pledged to ‘Destroy the United States’ and Obama Will ‘Legalize Terrorism’

  67. @Bones

    I am sure you can find another 50 websites that will support your twisted view. So what? 50 people’s biased opinions count for squat when we have the actual EVIDENCE before us – countless videos, testimonies and incidences of actual beheadings, stonings, dragging mutilated bodies through the streets, subjugation of women, honour killings, Christians being tried for blasphemy, bombings – you name it, they’ve done it, and are still doing it. Go ahead and trawl Islamic propaganda to find any shred of supposed “evidence” to support their sick agenda. It only continues to prove what kind of person you really are.

  68. And Roundhouse

    From the Jerusalem Post who revealed Walid Shoebat as an extortionist with an extremely dodgy charity

    However, Shoebat’s claim to have bombed Bank Leumi in Bethlehem is rejected by members of his family who still live in the area, and Bank Leumi says it has no record of such an attack ever taking place. His relatives, members of the Shoebat family, are mystified by the notion of “Walid Shoebat” being an assumed name. And the Walid Shoebat Foundation’s working process is less than transparent, with Shoebat’s claim that it is registered as a charity in the state of Pennsylvania being denied by the Pennsylvania State Attorney’s Office. Shoebat’s claim to have been a terrorist rests on his account of the purported bombing of Bank Leumi. But after checking its files, the bank said it had no record of an attack on its Bethlehem branch anywhere in the relevant 1977-79 period.

    Shoebat told The Jerusalem Post that this could be because the bank building was robustly protected with steel and that the attack may have caused little damage. Asked whether word of the bombing made the news at the time, he said, “I don’t know. I didn’t read the papers because I was in hiding for the next three days.” (In 2004, he had told Britain’s Sunday Telegraph: “I was terribly relieved when I heard on the news later that evening that no one had been hurt or killed by my bomb.”) Shoebat could not immediately recall the year, or even the time of year, of the purported bombing when talking to the Post by phone from the US. After wavering, he finally settled for the summer of 1977.

    The Sunday Telegraph described Shoebat as a man who “for much of his life… was eager to commit acts of terrorism for the sake of his soul and the Palestinian cause.” In that interview he described how he and his peers were indoctrinated as children “to believe that the fires of hell were an ever-present reality. We were all terrified of burning in hell when we died… The teachers told us that the only way we could certainly avoid that fate was to die in a martyrdom operation – to die for Islam.” But an uncle and a cousin of Shoebat, who still live in Beit Sahur in the Bethlehem area, where Shoebat grew up, said that Shoebat’s education was rather mild ideologically, and that religion did not play a dominant role. The uncle, interviewed at his home, said he remembered little about his nephew, because Walid left for America at the age of 16, and because his American mother always kept a distance from the rest of the family.

    http://www.jpost.com/Features/Article.aspx?id=96502

    But he’s another nut who believes Obama is a Muslim

  69. It only continues to prove what kind of person you really are.

    Yeah I don’t fall for lies. Especially Christian ones.

    You’ve been taken in and had.

    The evidence is in.

    Your friends are liars, extortionists and nutbags.

    But they feed your hate.

    Why do you have this need to listen to lies?

  70. The irony is that you don’t trust Muslims because they lie.

    Oh the irony of it all.

    I’d trust them before you pal.

  71. @Bones

    Sorry, have been trying to avoid having to mow the lawns but my wife had other ideas.

    Now, where was I? Oh yes, I love your “logic”. A person, or persons, claiming to be ex-Islamic terrorists may or may not have done everything they say they did or did not do, according to some reports, therefore all Christians are nut-jobs and Islam is a religion of peace that has a small problem with one or two bad-eggs. Makes perfect sense!

  72. Yeah try and squirm out of it.

    Your ex-Muslim ‘experts’ are frauds dishonestly scheming the government, churches and Christians with their made up fantasies and messages of fear and hate.

    Pretty sad and lamentable really.

    Jesus is dishonoured again by those who claim to love Him.

  73. What’s the solution, Steve asked.

    Well I could say Jesus but that might sound trite.

    What was it that stopped Christians openly destroying each other in the 15 and 1600s and acting like barbarians.

    I would have to say the Enlightenment.

    That’s what Muslims need.

    Coupled with massive improvements in living standards.

  74. @Bones

    “Yeah try and squirm out of it.”

    Squirm out of what? I have shown you that the websites and editorials that you are linking too have a distinct anti-Western and anti-Christian bias, and cannot be taken as any credible authority in this kind of discussion. The fact that you are trying to buck-pass and obfuscate by presenting as your supposed smoking guns the idea that Christians are actually the problem and not the happy, shiny, brutally oppressed Muslims who love us all and want only peace, is, frankly, sickening. Still, you have shown your own anti-Christian bias in everything you post here anyway, so I am not surprised that you are so ready to jump to their defense while throwing your own supposed faith under a bus.

  75. More form the “Religion of Peace”:

    Protests in Kabul and the northern city of Mazar-e-Sharif only attracted a few hundred people and no violence was reported, but a cleric told one crowd: “If you kill Americans, it’s legal and allowable.”

  76. And more:

    A Beirut protester, who gave his name as Ahmed, called for a boycott of Western products. “They hate us and want to get rid of our culture and we will resist. We should reject all aspects of their culture too,” the 23-year-old student said, wearing jeans and an orange t-shirt with English writing on it.

  77. Still more from the happy, shiny, brutally oppressed:

    At street level, Muslims enraged by attacks on their faith spoke of a culture war against those in the West who put rights to freedom of expression before religious sensitivities.

    “They hate him (the Prophet Mohammad) and show this through their continued works in the West, through their writings, cartoons, films and the way they launch war against him in schools,” said Abdessalam Abdullah, a preacher at a mosque in Beirut’s Palestinian refugee camp of Bourj al-Barajneh

  78. And more:

    Lebanon’s Hezbollah-run al-Manar television showed thousands of people waving Lebanese and yellow Hezbollah flags as they marched past the Roman ruins of Baalbek and shouted slogans such as “Death to America, death to those who insult the Prophet”.

  79. I have shown you that the websites and editorials that you are linking too have a distinct anti-Western and anti-Christian bias, and cannot be taken as any credible authority in this kind of discussion.

    So that’s CNN, BBC, Jerusalem Post, Michigan Messenger, Windsor Star – the original source of the Zachariah Anani story.

    All anti-western and anti-Christian.

    No they are anti-lying. And have blown the cover of your friends fantasies.

    You know these guys don’t you? They’re a source of a lot of your ‘information’.

    The articles I posted are some 1-5 years old yet still these sheisters are masquerading as Christian ‘experts’ on terrorism and Islam.

    This is the type of bias you have used to promote your own prejudice against Muslims.

    Don’t you care that Christians are duped?

    Have you no sense of truth?

    Is it OK to lie about my neighbour?

    Does that glorify Jesus?

  80. @Bones

    You keep throwing stupid articles at me about what some person with an obvious agenda or bias says someone else did or didn’t do. I am not interested in silly games and diversions. But that’s all you do. You offer nothing but garbage in the hope that your own ignorance and hypocrisy won’t show. Sadly, your bleeding heart fawning over a dangerous and murderous religious cult while damning and condemning your supposed fellow believers is disgusting, to say the least. You do know that those shiny happy brutally oppressed peace loving Muslims want to kill homosexuals, right? You do know they murder them and drag their mutilated bodies through the streets for the sin of loving another of the same sex? Or is it ok for them to do that because they are “misunderstood and marginalised”? Is it ok for them to kill, maim and torture innocents in the name of their sick cult because they are not treated very well by the West? Is it fine for them to have a murderous hatred for everything that we in the democratic West hold as sacrosanct? I posted several quotes from men in the street, as it were, in those Islamic countries, proving beyond any doubt the kind of people they are. And yet you throw stupid articles about three guys who may or may not have bombed a bank in Jerusalem. And you throw stupid youtube videos concocted by Muslims of supposed “atrocities” committed against them. Let’s just assume that a couple of them really happened. While reprehensible, when weighed against the hundreds of thousands of brutal acts committed by adherents to this sickening cult every single day, I’ll say that again so hopefully it will sink in, EVERY SINGLE DAY, they are but a drop in a very, very big ocean. I have this image of you Bones, sitting in the dark at your computer, flecks of spittle at the corners of your mouth as you mutter to yourself in unidentifiable jibberish, feverishly scanning the web looking for any scintilla of evidence to support your sickening vendetta against anything normal, civil and good. I shudder to think what goes on in that mind of yours, I really do.

  81. Look I think this is getting ridiculous. Forget about what Christians say, or what’s on Christian websites – most of the world is wondering what to do about Muslim terrorism and violence. The man on the street who doesn’t care about church or mosques at all, just wants to be able to catch trains, go to work, etc and not worry about violence. And he realizes that if somewhere somewhere in the world makes a nasty comic, movie or book, it could trigger mobs. And – most thinking people see this as a problem.

    I’m sure if you searched you’ll find some Christians somewhere who are violent. Or some Buddhists, or a lady in an old folks home who punches the lady next to her. But, every sane person knows that it doesn’t compare.

    Obama and Bush, but especially Obama has purposely gone out of this way to praise Islam, apologize, be sensitive to the feelings of Muslims all over the world. but that doesn’t stop Muslims from saying they hate him and burning effigies of him.

    The irony is that it’s the non-church goers who are the ones railing against Muslims. Go read comments on websites. Judging by the language it isn’t Christians who are the ones most angered by all this.
    (Wait – I usually assume people who swear aren’t Christians. Okay, maybe the hate speech filled with foul language is by liberal Christians?? They seem to think it’s acceptable).

  82. I’m sure if you searched you’ll find some Christians somewhere who are violent.

    Christians were violent and barbaric for a long time.

    What changed?

  83. Okay, maybe the hate speech filled with foul language is by liberal Christians?? They seem to think it’s acceptable

    What is acceptable and is shown here again is the propensity for right wing fundamentalist Christians to fall hook, line and sinker for abject lies.

    I’m calling it now, Christians like Roundhouse have confirmed this for me.

    If the AntiChrist comes (which I doubt), he won’t be a Catholic or One Word Government Leader or Muslim or Communist. He’ll be a born again Christian. They’ll eat his lies up.

  84. btw, Maybe the people in Libya read the article you posted Steve. Your call for reformation is being heard. Libyan moderates attacked militias today.

  85. What’s up Roundhouse, can’t protect your fraudulant liars.

    How as Christians do we respond to Muslims?

    Well not like Roundhouse for starters. He would just feed their hatred of Christians and poor image of Jesus.

    And battered bodies, blood and brains looks the same whether Christian or Muslim. And is tragic and evil.

    How as Christians do we respond to Muslims?

    Send hit squads? Prop up totalitarian regimes to keep them in check? (Yeah that’s worked and is about to bite the US in a big way) Hope and pray that there’ll be mass conversion?

    Simple it’s to be like Christ. It’s about responding to the Muslim areas in need and there are many of them, not to convert, but to improve their way of life, to treat them as my brother, to show them they are not my enemy though they may see me that way.

    I sponsor children and families, I’d be more than happy to sponsor Muslims.

    How does Jesus say to treat your enemies?

  86. I’d say the anti-christ will more likely to be a liberal Christian. Whoever he is, Greg will be his PR man, and Bones will be is research assistant.

    It’s a joke boys!

  87. And you throw stupid youtube videos concocted by Muslims of supposed “atrocities” committed against them.

    Wow, you even make light of genocide.

    Look up Muslims in Myanmar.

    You are evil.

    There is nothing of Christ in you.

  88. “How as Christians do we respond to Muslims?

    Send hit squads? Prop up totalitarian regimes to keep them in check? ”

    Wait a minute. So now previous US govt policies, are the actions of Christians?

    And now you’re bringing up the whole other issue of pacifism. If you are a pacifist that’s fine. But not every Christian thinks it’s wrong to point out the danger in something.

    Pacifism is a whole different subject. And the US govt is not the church.

    On one hand you argue for separation of church and state and think Christians can’t vote against gay marriage. Now, you somehow think the US govt has to love it’s enemies?

    “How does Jesus say to treat your enemies?”

    Call them dickheads, morons, and Nazis?

    okay seriously, now you are saying Muslims are your enemies. They aren’t my enemies. All I am saying and probably Steve and Roundhouse is that we want Muslims to stop killing in other countries, and in Australia to not throw bottles at police when someone publishes something insulting.

    Is that so bad? Really?

    btw The US has given billions in aid to Muslim countries.

  89. Okay Bones, I looked into the Myanmar situation. So, Buddhists are persecuting Muslims?

    It’s probably not fair to call Roundhouse evil because he isn’t aware of that problem. Not many people are. Even Aung San Suu Kyi doesn’t seem to say much about it. And ironically enough Muslims are rioting over videos, and books, but don’t seem to be supporting their brothers in Myanmar.

    Though reading through comments it seems that there are many Muslims who would like to solve the problem by having the Muslims fight back and take over Myanmar.

    It’s a terrible situation. But, I don’t see how Roundhouse not knowing much about it makes him evil.

    Also, it seems like a complex problem.

    So, Muslims are on the receiving end of violence in Myanmar at the hands of Buddhists.

    Sorry, and that makes Australian Christians bad because ………
    no, sorry, you lost me.

  90. What’s with the defence or Roundhouse’s ignorance?

    He was made aware of the situation in Burma and chose to cast it off as an Islamic propaganda.

    As usual he ignores the evidence in favour of his own prejudice.

    Can’t you see the pattern.

    Roundhouse:

    Believes Muslims are liars and aren’t to be trusted
    Doesn’t know any Muslims
    Believes false claims by discredited pseudo Islamic experts
    Denies Muslim genocide

    Keep defending him though.

    Old Holocaust denier Chirpy must be wondering why he got a hard time (well from me more than others)

  91. Oh and no I’m not talking about US aid I’m talking about specific Christian aid in whatever form.

    That this aid is from the Christian community with love….whether financial, volunteers, whatever.

    I know some churches do it.

  92. don’t seem to be supporting their brothers in Myanmar.

    They are, even with Christian support.

    But that’s not newsworthy.

  93. No one answered my question before.

    Why did Christians stop killing each other and being altogether barbaric in the Middle Ages?

    And it wasn’t just the Catholics, the Protestants would go ape (like the Muslims) if they saw a statue, crucifix or whatever.

    What changed?

  94. Well, in Sydney CBD today, there were zero incidents. No protestors returned. And I went to Cirque du Soleil — there were at least two women in hijabs in the audience near me there. I got home safely, and the Big Top did not get blown up.

    In terms of how Christians stopped killing each other… interesting question. Did it have something to do with the church institutions of the day losing their power? Secular rule gaining power? (Secular in this case being royalty – which had previously been hand-in-hand with the church?) There were certainly tensions between states and the Catholic church over power and land.

  95. @Bones

    “What’s up Roundhouse, can’t protect your fraudulant liars.”

    Still hung up on this diversion? Wow…..just……wow

    “battered bodies, blood and brains looks the same whether Christian or Muslim.”

    True. It’s just that the battered bodies are as a result of a Muslim blowing himself and hundreds of innocents to pieces.

    “There is nothing of Christ in you.”

    Says the guy who pours filth and scorn upon any Christian who doesn’t live the same worldly “faith” he does. Ha!

    “He was made aware of the situation in Burma and chose to cast it off as an Islamic propaganda.”

    Actually I didn’t watch that video because everything you post is crap. Having said that, I am aware of some of the stuff happening in Burma. I fail to see the connection however. What does the killing of Muslims in Burma by Buddhists have to do with us Western Christians? As Q so eloquently put it, “and that makes Australian Christians bad because ………”!

    There is no denying that Muslims around the world are being killed, but it’s usually them killing each other. For every one “massacre” perpetrated upon Muslims by another “religion”, there are probably at least twenty perpetrated by other Muslims. They are not only filled with hatred towards the West, they are also consumed with hatred for each other it appears. That’s why they are so dangerous. I don’t trust them one bit.

    “Roundhouse:

    Believes Muslims are liars and aren’t to be trusted – Yep. Not one bit. Read their Koran and you’ll see I’m right.

    Doesn’t know any Muslims – not true. I never said I don’t know any Muslims. I chat to the Muslim Pakistani at my local 7-11 regularly. I don’t trust him though

    Believes false claims by discredited pseudo Islamic experts – “false claims” and “discredited” – as stated by Muslim relatives of the converts and the biased Western media. Bones, you are gullible to believe it. Remember Taqiyya? Oh, I forgot – you don’t believe it exists

    Denies Muslim genocide – when did I say that? It happens, but it’s usually, as I said earlier, those crazies killing each other.

  96. Bones, from the post above:

    From a Christian perspective the greatest thing would be for Muslims to find Christ, and there are reports of Muslims being saved through visitations of Christ. Is there a new Messenger of Hope who will reach these people with the Good News, or will we be in this deadly conflict until Jesus comes?

    The very last paragraph. Which perhaps you could note.

    I dont know why you have to go off on these tangents which suggest people like Roundhouse, Q or even myself are some kind of aggressive Hitlerites, when you now very well that is a spurious claim. You must do.

    And your continual push to label people ‘right wing nutbags’, when, in fact, we are normal Christian men who would like nothing better than for the militant and dangerous wings of Islamist militancy to desist from their threatening and violent nature.

    I rather suspect they will continue until Jesus comes, but I hope and pray with all my being that those who are able to resist their pressure will be able to both establish a strong and lasting peace, and find Christ, either by supernatural means, as has been testified, or by people who are bold enough to go and preach the gospel in their lands.

    I really think it is time for you to moderate yourself and calm down.

    I am not into moderating people when we can all be passionate about our responses and sometimes even go over the top, but some of the things you have said are both irresponsible and indefensible.

    The comparison of what Roundhouse, Q and I have been saying with prewar Nazi Germany was particularly onerous, and, althoug I have left the comment for others to scrutinise, I think it is time to moderate the debate and take it to a more civil level.

    I, for one, do not want to continue at this nasty us and them enemy and friction level any longer.

    I prefer commenters to be asked to moderate their own commentary, so i ask that you and others involved take a deep breath and make their commentary somewhat more civil without losing the passion.

    Thank you!

  97. Roundhouse, you’ve been found out dude.

    For everybody to see.

    Your inability to look at the exposé of your ex-Muslim friends.

    You believe liars and frauds.

    as stated by Muslim relatives of the converts and the biased Western media

    What was that? What did you say? But before you said

    the websites and editorials that you are linking too have a distinct anti-Western and anti-Christian bias

    So is it biased Western media or anti-western media.

    Oh I’ll make it up as I go along. I’ll ignore the evidence.

    NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER.

    I can’t believe you still want to defend these frauds, honestly.

    Dear oh dear oh dear.

    You are just a nutbag, no other word for it.

  98. Bones, point me to Roundhouse’s comment and I’ll see what needs to be done. I have not read the entire thread today. I get so far and then I am dismayed by some of the angst in the commentary.

  99. @Bones, you’re still going on about your diversion? Steve, for your info, Bones is trying to deflect the conversation away from the brutality of the Muslim religion and onto a couple of ex-Muslim Christians who some say are not being truthful about their past. Bone’s “evidence” for their “fraud” is the “testimony” of their family, an editorial on a Muslim blogger’s site, and a story on the pro-Islam BBC. This is what he is referring to. Noting nefarious on my part.

  100. Ex-terrorist Zachariah Anani, who killed 223 people, (two thirds with a dagger! wow) apparently quoted from the Windsor Star

    https://signposts02.wordpress.com/2012/09/20/islamic-reformation-dream/#comment-37555

    And all these ex-terrorists are walking brazenly around in America claiming to have brought guns into the country as well as killing hundreds of people.

    If you are born again, can’t you be prosecuted for crimes in the past.

    Yes of course.

    But not for ones that are made up.

  101. Hahahaha

    Now it’s a leftist conspiracy.

    Keep going Roundhouse.

    Maybe you can involve the illuminati and lizard people.

  102. It continues – The Michigan Messenger has a whole section of their webpage devoted solely to LGBT issues – kind of says it all really.

  103. In terms of how Christians stopped killing each other… interesting question. Did it have something to do with the church institutions of the day losing their power? Secular rule gaining power? (Secular in this case being royalty – which had previously been hand-in-hand with the church?) There were certainly tensions between states and the Catholic church over power and land.

    That was an excellent answer RP. Definitely did, along with the beginnings of Enlightenment, human rights and democracy.

    Sadly the Muslim world has had little of these.

  104. Kamal Saleem? Could be a fraud. So what if he is. He’s just another Mike Warnke if he is. It has no bearing on the atrocities committed every day around he world by the happy shiny peace loving brutally oppressed Muslims. But of course you know that. You’re just trying anything to deflect from the proof that Muslims are dangerous. It just proves how wrong you are by throwing in useless diversions.

  105. Yep Roundhouse keep going. Now it’s an anti-Western, Western, leftist, gay conspiracy.

    I mean you are trying so hard to discredit these media sources without replying to what they say.

    Just do a websearch and see what your nutters say about President Obama. They give themselves away. Clearly nutbags.

    Kamal Saleem Uncovers Plot to Use Roe v. Wade to Bring in Sharia Law

    Kamal Saleem tells Values Voter Summit that Clinton plans to ‘Shut Down’ Churches, College Professors work with Terrorists

    Kamal Saleem Suggests Obama is a Muslim, Imposing Islamic ‘Fascist Religion’

    Kamal Saleem Says U.S. Generals Pledged to ‘Destroy the United States’ and Obama Will ‘Legalize Terrorism’

    Liddy guest Walid Shoebat falsely claimed that Obama is “definitely a Muslim”

    Shoebat – ‘Europe and the rest of the tyrannical world have again sided with evil and have replaced the Nazis with there support of the phony Palestinian cause.’

    And of course you could also wonder why these ex-murderers and terrorists have American citizenship and aren’t called for account for their crimes.

  106. My God Bones! I DON’T GIVE A STUFF ABOUT A COUPLE OF EX-MUSLIMS WHO MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE DONE SOMETHING OR NOT!!! Do you get it? They are irrelevant. You are simply trying to throw diversions, but it’s only making you look unhinged. Give it up!

  107. Don’t you. I do.

    These guys are lying to the people of God.

    So yes I care, even if you don’t.

    Obviously lying isn’t a big deal for you. I wonder if it is to God?

    What do you think God?

    Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

    Proverbs 12:22

    Thanks God, I’m your delight. Which one are you, Roundhouse?

  108. I can’t be bothered to wade through all that piffle. Can’t you fellas cut to the chase? Give us the main points or summarise what is being said, quoting the most important parts.

    Or… better still, stay on thread, which is discussing why it would be preferable for Islam to go through a Reformation that would render the militants pointless, or marginalise them into an identifiable group that authorities would then be able to isolate and contain.

    We should establish, first of all, to be able to continue in a more civil way, whether we agree that there is a majority view amongst Muslims that people of all religions should be able to live peaceably without the need for Caliphates, theocracies or military controls.

    I am not totally convinced of this, mainly because, whilst I acknowledge there are apparently moderates who give all the right signals and speak the right language, they don’t seem to be speaking up before or during a clash, only after, when there is a big dash towards limiting the fallout from the actions of the militants.

    And, please Bones, realise that this doesn’t amount to bigotry, but a cautious approach to a foggy environment.

  109. @Steve

    I don’t agree that there is a majority view amongst Muslims about living peaceably. It flies in the face of what the Koran says. The Koran is their final authority, so if it says that they must take over the entire world by the sword if necessary then they will. Any Muslim leader who says otherwise is going against the Koran, therefore they are engaging in Taqiyya. They’re lying to us. They’re telling us what they think we want to hear. There will never be a “reformation” in Islam.

  110. Hahaha, Roundhouse.

    There are billions of Muslims on the planet. If they didn’t want peace we’d be all stuffed.

    Australia will go first and quickly.

  111. I can’t be bothered to wade through all that piffle. Can’t you fellas cut to the chase?

    Forget it Steve. Just the usual charlatans claiming to be ex-Muslim terrorists going around the US spreading fear and hate in churches and on Christian media.

    As you can see Roundhouse is one of their disciples.

  112. @Bones

    Ok, now you get it. Good. Finally. Except america will be the first to go. Europe is almost there already. Australia is not too far behind sadly

  113. @Steve

    Bones is trying to deflect the thread away from the truth. The thread has gone very much like this:

    Me – What is your answer to the atrocities committed by Muslims world-wide
    Bones: Three ex-Muslim terrorists telling lies….
    Me – How do you explain their hatred for us?
    Bones – Three ex-Muslim terrorists telling lies…..
    Me – Do you support their actions?
    Bones – Three ex-Muslim terrorists telling lies…..
    Me – If Islam is a peaceful religion why are their leaders telling them to kill all Americans?
    Bones – Three ex-Muslim terrorists telling lies….
    Me – If it’s only a small minority, why are thousands dying protesting around the world?
    Bones – Three ex-Muslim terrorists telling lies….

    You get the drift Steve

  114. Bones, I think the problem is that there is information overload here.

    It seems that no matter what the subject, you come up with youtube videos of somewhere in the world at some time in history showing that some supposed Christian did something wrong, and that is supposed to prove that Christians can’t say anything about anything.

    Nobody has the time to watch all your videos.

    The good thing is that neither Roundhouse or Steve are falling for your silly diversions.

    It’s a tired old trick.

  115. What is your answer to the atrocities committed by Muslims world-wide

    I’ve given multiple answers especially as Christians who are called to love our neighbours, to be the Good Samaritan, to show Muslims Christ.

    What have you done?

    Quote from Muslim nutbags from around the world and tell everyone how they’re all liars.

  116. The good thing is that neither Roundhouse or Steve are falling for your silly diversions.

    Tell Roundhouse that. He’s been trying to excuse charlatans and liars all day. Apparently these are his sources of knowledge of Islam.

  117. iow, I’m sure you’ll find some Christian charlatans somewhere. That doesn’t mean anything.

    Guess what Bones, I’ve heard of a case of a woman who lied about being raped. So .. does that mean nobody can talk about protecting women, or seeking justice for sexual attacks or trying to reduce crimes against women?

    I think liberal Christians need a reformation more than the Muslims….

  118. @Bones

    “Apparently these are his sources of knowledge of Islam.”

    Really? Kindly show me where I stated this.

  119. “I’ve given multiple answers especially as Christians who are called to love our neighbours, to be the Good Samaritan, to show Muslims Christ.”

    That’s been done, and is being done. And Christians will continue to do it.

    Let’s hope they don’t blow themselves up in the meantime.

    Think I’ll finish commenting on this topic.

  120. @Q

    I really have been enjoying what you have been contributing here. You stated recently that you felt that you don’t have the same kind of eloquence and knowledge as someone like Steve. Well, you are wrong. You have posted some really good comments and opinions, in a way that I wish I could. Well done!

  121. I don’t agree that there is a majority view amongst Muslims about living peaceably. It flies in the face of what the Koran says. The Koran is their final authority, so if it says that they must take over the entire world by the sword if necessary then they will. Any Muslim leader who says otherwise is going against the Koran, therefore they are engaging in Taqiyya. They’re lying to us. They’re telling us what they think we want to hear. There will never be a “reformation” in Islam.

    Yep and of course this obviously errant and discriminatory statement just gets ignored.

    Keep believing that the gays and the Muslims are out to get ya, ya retards.

  122. Really? Kindly show me where I stated this.

    I have some knowledge of the issue, having read many different books and listened to former Muslims speak on the exact issues I have raised here

    Game over dude.

  123. The truth is that, like many areas of life, there are extreme elements of most religions. The difference here is that there is a very large international grouping of Islamic militants who are overwhelming any moderate response and dominating the media in strong terms.

    Of course a suicide bombing is going to catch the headlines. Depressingly, though, they are becoming so common place that the majority of the world’s population have almost become desensitised to these atrocities, but they are now at a weekly rate in some city or other, and always the calling card of Muslim militants.

    Scratching around for Christian, Buddhist or Hindu equivalents in recent history is both pointless and futile to the question at hand, which is, how to deal with the social fallout of the fear-mongering attributed to militants.

    This is not an arm-wrestle to see who have beheaded more people. If you want to do that, go back to the secularist citizens of the French Revolution, who decapitated the majority of its blue-blooded families. Or, for plain atrocities, go back to the Stalinist era of communist Russia, or Pol Pot, North Korea, or any number of despotic regimes which have flooded our streets and fields with blood which still cries out to God today.

    The issue at hand is the threat to nations being made by militants who want to bring in a Caliphate run on Sharia lines, overturning democracy and ushering in a sustained period of global tension.

    Whilst it is clearly gathering momentum, it will not be stopped unless the world at large takes action now. I think it is a large and looming shadow rather than a majority gathering. An umbra cast by media conscious violationists with a ruthless, cultic cause.

    But it has a penumbra of onlooking sympathisers, the kind of people who have an each way bet on who will win the contest, and are willing to be dragged into the fray as soon as they are convinced their chances of victory are improving.

    The time to halt this potential disaster is now.

    It is gratifying to see Libyans taking the initiative against the militants. Perhaps this movement will gather speed across the Middle East. We know there is a substantive wave of dissent in Iran, and Iraq has seen immense change since the overthrow of Saddam.

    God is at work, one way or the other. One thing we know. Israel will be a spark in the tinder until Jesus comes.

  124. it will not be stopped unless the world at large takes action now…

    Wow such strong language. Meaning what? More invasions?

    The time to halt this potential disaster is now.

    So what are you going to do?

    Israel will be a spark in the tinder until Jesus comes.

    Sure will while they keep treating Palestinians like shit.

    Gee you nearly brought up a political reason for the spread of radical Islam. Like living in abject poverty and despair, denial of basic human rights, suffering persecution from totalitarian governments propped up by western governments, anger at injustices, both perceived and real, from the international community.

    Almost that is. I mean if they lived like we did in the west, there’d be less of an audience for the nutbags.

  125. That, again is an ugly and nasty portrayal of what i actually said. A selective cut’n’paste of things which direct the conversation to your own bigotry.

    But here is a test for you:

    There are 1 billion Muslims on the planet. Let’s say, a conservative estimate, of 10% militant.

    If the rest of Islam, the ones you claim to be the moderates, the non-aligned, the democratically inclined, took action to separate the minority militants off and disarm them they would be isolated and disempowered.

    If, on top of this, the Muslim world called on the rest of the world, maybe through the UN, to assist them, then we could see a large scale diminishing in the influence of militants and all under the control and jurisdiction of Islamic oversight.

    Do you think this will ever happen?

    I don’t think the people you call moderates have either the will nor the heart to do it, mainly because it would be seen to be in the interests of the whole to allow the minority to do the dirty work of isolating the infidels ad empowering Islam as the major force on earth.

    That way there is no need to silence militants.

    Soon Islam would be the dominating force anyway.

    And you could, if you played your cards right, become one the main dhimmis in their stew pot of non-Muslim tax payers with influence over whether people like Roundhouse and Q get to keep their heads.

  126. Problem with your nice proposal of course is that Israel will refuse any UN force for starters.

    Palestine is one of the keys of the angst of Muslims including the conditions I cited above.

  127. Soon Islam would be the dominating force anyway.

    Ah, this is after the gays have forced churches to marry gays. Then the Muslims will take over and cut everyone’s heads off. Then the Roman Catholic beast will rise and….

    Sorry I’m lost in the morass of your world of fear.

  128. What has Israel to do with anything. The UN would be a secondary phase once the billion strong Muslim community had made the decision to join forces to diminish the influence of the militants.

    If they have the will. I don’t believe they do or they would already have acted long ago.

    No! You constantly, constantly push your agenda even though a solution is put in front of you.

    Now you blame Israel.

    Never the militants. No. No for one second. Not for one jot or tittle.

    Everyone’s fault but Islam. Everyone’s problem but Islam.

    Muslims were doing these same things long before Israel became a State in 1948. Look at the India partition in 1947, which was, in part, a British disaster, but Muslim militancy was involved.

    If the world got behind moderate Islam to diminish militancy, Israel would be amongst the first to support it, because it would be in their interests to end the conflict, both in surrounding nations, and on their own soil.

  129. Sorry about the ad hominem, but my goodness you ask for it. No one has that kind of strength of character to resist your kind of persistent anger. And believe me, I have desperately tried!

    God help you!

  130. Think you’ll find the solution will be political.

    There’s a reason why Turkey keeps its radicals in line even though they are nearly all Muslim.

    Like Christians in the later Middle Ages, governments became secular and weren’t prepared to fight in wars for the sake of religion. So came the end of the era of Christian bloodshed (apart from Ireland/ Yugoslavia but those battles were as much ethnic and national.).

    Turkey is the only secular Muslim state.

    It’s secularisation that keeps religion in line.

  131. “It’s secularisation that keeps religion in line.”

    And there are Christian groups, like the Anabaptists, who hold the secular/state division dear for that very reason.

    Power corrupts, and any religion that ends up running a state is likely to end up committing atrocities. (And any extreme political force that ends up having believers equivalent to religious zealots.)

    I suspect that it is when the extremists threaten the economic interests of non-extremists, that resistance to the extremes will build.

  132. @Bones

    “Really? Kindly show me where I stated this.

    I have some knowledge of the issue, having read many different books and listened to former Muslims speak on the exact issues I have raised here

    Game over dude.”

    Just some of the books I’ve read:

    http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Muslim/dp/0879759844
    http://www.amazon.com/Now-They-Call-Infidel-Renounced/dp/1595230440

    Various ex-Muslims whose articles and writings I have read on the subject:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie#Religious_and_political_beliefs
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehsan_Jami
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_Shaikh

    Hmm, not a supposed ex-Muslim terrorist amongst them. Going to apologise now?

  133. @irvingjb

    Thanks for the scorecard. Those shiny happy brutally oppressed religion of peace Muslims sure know how to show restraint don’t they?

  134. Here’s your hero, Roundhouse. You’d be at home with Breivik and his friends in the far right.

    In Breivik, troubling echoes of West’s view of Islam

    (CNN) — The trial of mass murderer Anders Breivik has confirmed one thing so far: He seems quite mad. Looking plump and dumb, with a slightly receding hairline, the Norwegian gave a right-wing salute as he entered the courtroom and smirked his way through CCTV footage of his handiwork.

    Breivik claims that he killed 77 people as an act of self-defense against the Islamification of Norway, that he is a member of the Knights Templar and part of an “anticommunist” resistance to multiculturalism. Reading his insane manifesto, it is tempting to dismiss him as a nut with a gun.

    Nevertheless, there’s no denying the political context to what Breivik did. Since 9/11, fringe and mainstream politicians in Europe and America have spoken of Islam as incompatible with Western values. Breivik quoted many of them in his manifesto. This is not to say that he took direct inspiration from those public figures, or that they bear personal responsibility for his crimes. But Breivik’s paranoia does conform to a popular — wholly negative — view of the twin problems of Islam and multiculturalism. Tragically, it is a view that few mainstream politicians have been willing to challenge.

    Breivik makes two false claims. The first is that Islam is ethically inferior to Christianity and cannot exist peacefully within the secular democracies of the post-Enlightenment West. That is the open view of the Dutch Party for Freedom, the French National Front, the English Defense League and the Finnish True Finns. It was implicit in Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain’s aversion to the building of mosques. We might also infer it from much of the testimony presented at Rep. Peter King’s congressional hearings into the radicalization of American Muslim youth. King has opined that there are “too many mosques” in the United States and that roughly 80% of American Muslims are radical.

    The mistake being made by all these people is to conflate a tiny minority of political Islamists — whose precise ideology has only really emerged in the last 30 years — with the entire global and historical community of Muslims. It is true that Islam has never undergone a total Reformation, but it has experienced mini-enlightenments. The most celebrated is the Islamic Golden Age (750- 1258), centered in Baghdad, in which the arts and sciences flourished in a manner that left Dark Ages Europe far behind. (You can also find humanist poetry and art in Persia and even a small amount of erotica in Northern Africa.)
    Islam never outright rejected scientific empiricism but instead tried to reconcile and integrate it into its religious beliefs, with a surprising amount of debate about the primacy of either faith or reason. It preached that divine revelation could be found in other religions and so practiced tolerance in the lands that it conquered — a kind of Islamic multiculturalism. One of the giants of the European Enlightenment, Voltaire, favorably opined that Islam was more tolerant in its treatment of minorities than Christianity (consider the comparative persecution of Catholics in Ireland or of Jews in Spain).

    Today, Islamic society looks different in every region where it is found. The royal families of Saudi Arabia have promoted ultra-conservative Wahhabism, which discourages personal vice, idolatry, veneration of saints, etc. The Bangladeshis prefer the more mystical Sufism, which places greater emphasis upon a subjective experience of Allah and is traditionally more tolerant of human foibles and dissent.

    Almost every part of the Islamic world has produced progressive movements, some headed by women. Pakistan gave the world Benazir Bhutto and Indonesia Megawati Soekarnoputri. In all cases, the political development of Muslim countries has been as much shaped by poverty and the legacy of colonialism as it has Islam. Iran might have continued on a course toward liberalism had the West not sponsored an anti-democratic coup in 1953.
    In short, there is no monolithic Islamic history or experience, which makes it hard or even disingenuous to talk about the challenge that Islam as a whole poses to the West. Put another way, no American would want anyone to think that the Westboro Baptist Church spoke for all of Christianity.

    Breivik’s second, equally fallacious claim is that Islam’s growth in the West has been encouraged by liberal elites as a means to destroy traditional Christian culture. Indeed, multiculturalism has been strongly critiqued by two British prime ministers — Tony Blair and David Cameron. Cameron said that it had “failed” because it did not demand submission to the liberal principles of gender and sexual equality.

    But multiculturalism is not a Marxist ideology carefully plotted by the “Saul Alinksy radicals” so loathed by Newt Gingrich. Rather, it was free-market economics and globalization that caused the mass migration of Muslims from East to West — and multiculturalism was simply a policy response. The aim was to protect the cultural integrity of both host and guest populations by allowing them separate spaces in which to develop.
    Far from intending to threaten the religious or civil liberties of the majority Christian population (which remains vastly superior in numbers), the goal was to create a common framework of laws but otherwise leave everyone to their own devices. If Christianity has declined in the West, it’s the fault of the Christians who stopped going to church — not the small groups of Muslims quietly attending their local mosque.

    And yet Muslims in Western countries now live under the pressures of anti-terrorist surveillance and social ostracism. They are forced to defend their Britishness, their Frenchness or their Americaness — even if they are third- or fourth-generation citizens of those countries. Breivik’s attack has raised the threat level against the West’s Muslims: They are now the target of our politically engaged sociopaths.

    Given how widespread the condemnation of both Islam and multiculturalism is across the West, perhaps it is apt to describe Breivik as a symptom of Western psychological angst. It is a condition of neurosis about decline and paranoia about foreign invasion that is in desperate need of remedy.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/17/opinion/stanley-islam-breivik/index.html

  135. “Over a billion people believe in Allah without truly knowing what Allah supposedly stands for or what he really demands of them. And the minority that do understand continue to be Moslems because they have redefined their morality and ethics to fit within the teachings of Islam, which are floridly lacking in morality. They therefore redefine what is good and evil in order to fit their lives into what is preached by Islam, instead of examining Islam to see if it fits within the good life. Backwards thinking, imposed by a backward religion”.

    Sir Winston Churchill

  136. ‘Our own holy war and jihad’

    Unbelievable! Even if you could attribute a moral equivalence to the US President, or Australian PM, which you can’t without massive twisting of logic, you do know he has to have the majority approval of Congress or Parliament!

    You really take the stick!

    You probably think 9/11 was a conspiracy, or a flying accident.

  137. You need to take back your comment on Breivik, Bones. It’s disgusting and inappropriate.

    Please moderate your speech.

  138. Lt General Jerry Boykin on the holy war on Islam

    “Ladies and gentleman, this is your enemy,” Boykin said to the congregation as he flashed his pictures on a screen. “It is the principalities of darkness…. It is a demonic presence in that city that God revealed to me as the enemy.”

    That’s an unusual message for a high-ranking U.S. military official to deliver. But Boykin does it frequently.

    This June, for instance, at the pulpit of the Good Shepherd Community Church in Sandy, Ore., he displayed slides of Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and North Korea’s Kim Jung Il. “Why do they hate us?” Boykin asked. “The answer to that is because we’re a Christian nation…. We are hated because we are a nation of believers.”

    Our “spiritual enemy,” Boykin continued, “will only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus.”

    There you have it. We’ve been embroiled in our own jihad confirmed by none other than members of our military forces.

  139. You need to take back your comment on Breivik,

    Why? In essence you agree with him. You hate the Left and blame multiculturalism and fear Islam. Birds of a feather really.

  140. Bones we are waiting, can you please summarise briefly the core teachings of islam and say christianity?

    here is a little help on islam’s idea of justice

  141. Yes irvingjb, seems very Old Testamentish to me. We can see the results here of God’s command to stone others in Deuteronomy.

    I can post some articles on Christians doing the exact same stuff in the Middle Ages.

    To each other.

  142. @Bones, Boykin’s comments may be a little strong, but he’s essentially right. Islam is an enemy of Christ, therefore it is our enemy. Having said that, it is not our only enemy. Humanism and liberalism are also enemies of Christ.

  143. @irvingjb, you will find that Bones hates Christians and hates the bible, so just disregard his offensive comments about the bible

  144. Hey irvingjb, it’s nice of Churchill to say that about his Muslim allies specifically those from Morocco and French Algeria which fought against Germany in Africa and Europe..

    That quote of course comes from 1899 written during Kitchener’s campaign in the Sudan.

    There’s a whole site dedicated to Britain’s Muslim soldiers.

    http://www.britainsmuslimsoldiers.com/#/ww-ii/4554736071

    The French would agree too cos after fighting for the French they interred their Muslim soldiers for having the temerity for asking for independence.

  145. you will find that Bones hates Christians and hates the bible, so just disregard his offensive comments about the bible

    I hate your ignorant, bigoted beliefs. Like I would someone who said the same about Jews.

    And just ignore that our Bible has gory bits, religious genocides etc.

  146. @Bones, you have not the faintest idea how to rightly divide what you read in the bible. You are ignorant of it, so you throw ignorant comments about it at will

  147. Just be glad you weren’t a Christian in medieval Europe Roundhouse. You’d be out slaying other Christians, cutting their heads off, burning churches, burning other Christians.

    Of course those who weren’t Christians would be saying look at that hateful religion. It incites violence.

  148. We are not in medieval europe, its 2012. Yet here we have a pre- medieval cult spreading its fascist faux theology globally through rapid replication, violence and terrorism.

  149. We are not in medieval europe, its 2012.

    That’s it. Deny our past. Deny the brutality which Christians committed against others.

  150. And here comes the hate.

    It’s been coming from you for a while but if you have more pour it out so we can all see your filth.

  151. Boykin’s comments may be a little strong, but he’s essentially right. Islam is an enemy of Christ, therefore it is our enemy. Having said that, it is not our only enemy. Humanism and liberalism are also enemies of Christ.

    You better go check what Jesus said about your enemies.

    They’re not my enemies. They’re yours.

    The holy wars of the Middle Ages are still with us. They never really left I suppose.

  152. couldn’t care less about past christian faults, your angst and guilt in no way justifies the evil that islam seeks to spread.

    here are moderate indonesian muslims reeducating a break away islamic splinter, imagine how they feel about real infidels.

  153. couldn’t care less about past christian faults

    Yeah I gather that.

    here are moderate indonesian muslims reeducating a break away islamic splinter, imagine how they feel about real infidels.

    I can post videos of gays being hung in Iran if you like. I’ve already said that radical Islam is evil. They cause more suffering to their own people than others.

  154. There is no such thing as radical islam and non-radical islam. To claim there is such a thing as non-radical islam demonstrates that you fail to understand islam.

    islam cannot be “interpreted” the koran is the perfect word of god and can never be modified or changed. The poor ahmadi muslims in indonesia changed a couple of details and if you watch the video to the end, can see their fate at the hands of moderate non radical muslims.

    The prophet is the perfect example of behavior for all muslism, he does no wrong. Muslims should emulate his behavior, including slaughter and torture of infidels paedophilia etc etc.

    There are non-radical muslims who do not abide, do not understand or pretend or lie about what allah demands of them, as Winston Churchill so succinctly put it.

    Here is the grand central mosque in London supposedly the most moderate mosque in Europe

    Please identify where one can find this non-radical islam?

  155. Please identify where one can find this non-radical islam?

    Derr. The woman exposing and recording this is a Muslim. Fair to say she isn’t a radical Muslim. Or is she?

    Well for starters why is a Muslim exposing Muslims if there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim?

    If you know anything about Saudi Muslims – the Wahabi, they are the most extreme of the lot. Which is what these are.

  156. Bones, please respond to what I say not what you want to think I said.

    I am very careful between using the word islam and the words muslim(s). read again what I wrote.

  157. What’s with the hundred year old Winston Churchill quotes.

    Many Muslims fought for the Allies in WWI and II.

    So important was the Muslim contribution in both World Wars that Churchill himself wrote, “We must not on any account break with the Muslims who represent 100 million people and the main army elements which we must rely on for the immediate fighting.”

    Churchill’s sentiments were borne out by the statement of Field Marshall Sir Claude Auchinleck, a British army commander during World War II, “Britain couldn’t have come through both wars if they hadn’t the Indian army.” Britain has shared the experience of the World War I and II with Muslims from around the world, but this bond has been largely overlooked. Commonwealth soldiers played a role on the fields of Europe and in lesser-known campaigns across the globe: in Burma, Persia, and also Africa where troops were fighting in Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Sudan and Somalia. These forgotten heroes were men of the empire who gave their lives and limbs in the name of duty. There was also the Palestine Regiment; and in World War II Arabs and Jews fought together under the British flag against Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.

    World Wars I and II connect every family in Britain. “If more was known about the contribution of so many Muslim soldiers of the British Indian Army, it might help to restore a sense of pride, and cement the social bonds of different communities in British society,” Jahan suggests. “This would turn the idea of a shared heritage into a meaningful weapon against prejudice.”

  158. I answered your question. I identified the non-radical Muslim who must believe non-radical Islam to expose the extremists of her own religion.

    Very brave woman.

  159. Bones, the statement that she is a very brave woman is telling in itself isn’t it? The woman is not practicing any form of Islam beyond her own denial of or lack of understanding of islam. That’s like me saying I am a Christian but I don’t agree that Jesus is the son of God, am I still a Christian?

    Muslims and the west had a common enemy during WWII. That enemy no longer exists. The US and the mujahedeen had a common enemy in the USSR, that enemy is no longer a threat so who did the mujahedeen attack next? Hmm the US.

    In Islamic strategy ,infidels who assist the cause of islam are called useful idiots.

    Accusing the wahabis at Mecca of being the most extreme is like accusing the catholics in the Vatican of being the most extreme Christians. Er…they are the official source and authority. Did you know it is illegal for kafirs to set foot on the holly soil of Mecca?

    Do you know the cause of 9/11? Bin Laden’s declaration was circulating in 1999 and was accessible on the internet.

  160. The woman is not practicing any form of Islam beyond her own denial of or lack of understanding of islam.

    That’s a complete load of crap which you’ve just made up.

    Moderate Muslims want nothing to do with extremists.

    There are 1.6 billion Muslims. You’re saying they’re all radical terrorists.

  161. How about the Premier of NSW congratulating the Muslims because they didn’t do anything radical on the weekend!

    LOL! That is so ridiculous.

    How comes he didn’t make a similar speech the week before to praise the Christians, Buddhists and Hindus, the Scientologists, JWs, or even the atheists for being so well behaved and not rioting!

    This appeasement stuff is pure comedy.

    Like Obama and Clinton spending millions to broadcast their personal detestation of the 14 minute classically awful YouTube movie on the prophet across Pakistan, on the day the Pakistan PM gave the nation the day off, during which they rioted anyway and 30 were killed, and spending next to zip on telling the Libyans how upset they were at the murder of the Ambassador.

    It must be time for a movie called The Life of Maurice!

  162. BTW Bin Laden declared war on the US for the reason that the US had soldiers stationed in saudi arabia, holly soil, infidel forces stationed in Saudi Arabia was a sacrilege and an offence to islam.
    The rest is history. After 9/11 the US withdrew its base from Saudi Arabia.

  163. Bones,
    You need to take back your comment on Breivik,

    Why? In essence you agree with him. You hate the Left and blame multiculturalism and fear Islam. Birds of a feather really.

    I utterly refute your disgusting claim. You are the lowest of the low with some of your remarks.

    Several times kow you have asked me for some kind of support for your commentary, but, whilst I agree with some oyour motives and even some of what you say, you use such repulsive means to convey your message that it is lost in translation.

    I am asking you to take this remark back. I don’t need an apology, just for you to acknowledge that I do not agree with Brievik, nor do I side with his views.

    That I should even have to read such provocative comments is one thing, but to have to ask you twice to take it back is abysmal.

    I do not hate the left. I am at odds with the morality of some of their doctrines. I do not blame multiculturalism, but I do not think some groups have embraced it in the way it is intended. I certainly do not fear Islam.

    To fear Islam I would have to fear death. Why would I when it is gain?

    In fact, my wife and I have relocated to place where most of our neighbours are Muslim. I work with and educate Muslims. As I said, I have business dealings with Muslims. Why would I fear them? What can they do to me? The gospel is greater than religion. I have preached in Muslim heartlands and seen souls saved. I go where I am sent. I go because of love not fervour.

    There is no fear to perfect love, Bones.

    I love people. I reverently fear only God.

    You mistake prediction for fear.

    You are a sectarian. It oozes from your words, your thoughts, your accusations and your temperament.

  164. When I watched the twin towers fall, in my inner dei-logue I asked what to do in response in prayer. I got a clear message to pray for Muslims to have personal encounters with Jesus in their devotions. I have met others who ministered in Muslim countries who had been instructed by Jesus to do the same. There are testimonies galore of stunned Muslims meeting Jesus in their devotions and being converted in recent years. And when they switch, they are not just luke warm willful Western believers either.
    God is the God of the impossible.

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