What Christians Can Learn from Muslims

PETER KREEFT

Please ask yourself whether you would like others to judge Christianity based on the picture of it now being presented in the modern Western media. Then please remember the Golden Rule, and apply this to the picture of Islam presented by the same source.

 

Full disclosure: I am a Catholic Christian. I write to other Christians. Muslims are invited to listen and talk back and correct what I may have gotten wrong about them.

But where am I coming from? Neither left nor right, neither liberal (or modernist) Christianity nor fundamentalism. And that includes my take on Islam, which is neither the naive, limp “Why can’t we all just get along?” nor the blind demonization of “Enemies!”

As a Christian, I say Islam crucially lacks the Cross, and Christ, and his radical love. But as a Christian I also say Islam has great and deep resources of morality and sanctity that should inspire us and shame us and prod us to admiration and imitation. Thus my subtitle. In the spiritual competition for the most sanctity, all sides win.

My medium is not essays but fictional dialogues between a pious Muslim and various Christians. For my strategy is indirect rather than direct, showing rather than telling. (This is explained further in the subsection “Introducing ‘Isa Ben Adam,” page 13.)

 

Why the West Fears Islam

Many Christians today have a deep fear of Islam, as of no other religion. They have reasons: over three thousand of them after 9/11. Yet many Muslims, most Muslims in the West, and the vast majority in America, want to be our friends, not our enemies in our battle against our real common enemy, which is sin, Satan, selfishness and secularism. If those are not our real enemies, then Jesus and all the saints were fools. Why do Christians believe our irreligious media’s picture of Muslims as hate-filled, violence-prone, ignorant, superstitious, irrational, fanatical terrorists? To the secular media, the only good Muslim is a bad Muslim, that is, a secularized one. The same media believes that the only good Christian is a bad Christian; that is, a secularized, de-supernaturalized, modernized, liberalized, compromised, rationalized one – especially one that worships the gods of the Sexual Revolution (the old one, I mean, not the new one expressed in John Paul II’s Theology of the Body). To let this media define a religionfor us is idiocy.

The secular media fear Islam for two reasons: (1) because they think it is the reason, or the rationalization, for nearly all the terrorism, murder and war in the world today, and (2) because it is deeply religious. The media believe these two things naturally go together. They are wrong.

 

What Christians should not learn from Muslims

While the subtitle of this book, and its main focus, is What Christians Can Learn from Muslims, there are many things that Christians should notlearn from Muslims; for instance:

  1. Anger or jealousy at Western civilization
  2. Proneness or addiction to violence
  3. Politicizing religion (that always messed us up whenever we tried it!)
  4. Preventing apostasy by murdering apostates
  5. Treating women like slaves
  6. Prioritizing justice over mercy and forgiveness
  7. The continued chewing of centuries-old grudges
  8. Fear of freedom
  9. Fear of reasoning and dialogue
  10. Terrorism
  11. Theological voluntarism (the doctrine that God’s will has no reason)
  12. Unitarianism (the theology that insists that the one God is only one Person, not three, and that Christ is only human, not divine)

With the exception of the last item, however, these are not essential parts of Islamic orthodoxy. If these ideas appear in the Qur’an at all, they are disapproved rather than approved. And they are not typical of all or even most serious Muslims in the world today, especially in the West, though they are typical of the ones we usually hear about in the news. For quiet piety does not make headlines; loud terrorist explosions do.

Please ask yourself whether you would like others to judge Christianity based on the picture of it now being presented in the modern Western media. Then please remember the Golden Rule, and apply this to the picture of Islam presented by the same source.

 

What Christians should Obviously Learn from Muslims

There are also many things we Christians already know we can and should learn from Muslims, or be reminded of by Muslims. These are things which we already believe, though we do not practice them very well; for instance:

  1. Faithfulness in prayer, fasting and almsgiving
  2. The sacredness of the family and children and hospitality
  3. The absoluteness of moral laws and of the demand to be just and charitable
  4. The absoluteness of God and the need for absolute submission, surrender and obedience (“islam”) to him

You will not find many Muslims anywhere who are indifferentists, moral pragmatists, hedonists, utilitarians, materialists, subjectivists, relativists or libertines.

The list of things Christians should not learn from Muslims is a list of things we already recognize as evils, and the list of things Christians should obviously learn from Muslims is a list of things we already recognize as goods. But there is a third thing, which is good, not evil, but which we do notclearly recognize as obviously good, and this is the thing we very much need to learn from Muslims. That’s what this book is about.

It is not unique to Muslims. We could learn it from anyone, but Muslims seem to be the ones who are most clearly manifesting it today. So it is to the Muslims that we should turn to learn it – not primarily for the sake of being nice to Muslims or for religious harmony or ecumenism or even world peace, but for our own holiness and wholeness and humanity, our own supernatural and natural completing.

I find it hard to give a single name to this thing. I could call it something like the “spirit” ofIslam, but that is far, far too slippery and subjective a term. Rather than telling you what it is, by defining it, like a philosopher, or by selling it, like a motivational speaker, I want to show you what it is, by exemplifying it, in a fictional character, like a novelist.

 

Introducing ‘Isa Ben Adam

My protagonist, ‘Isa Ben Adam, is a creation of my imagination, though he is modeled on a few real Muslims whom I have met and many more whom I have read. ‘Isa is the protagonist of my novel, An Ocean Full of Angels (St. Augustine’s Press, 2010), and he has already appeared in print as one of the two dialoguing characters in A Refutation of Moral Relativism (Ignatius Press, 1999).

The four characters ‘Isa dialogues with in the present book are also taken from my novel. They are: (1) Libby Rawls, a sarcastic, sassy Black feminist “liberal”; (2) Evan Jellema, a very straight Dutch Calvinist who is the opposite of Libby in nearly every imaginable way; (3) Father Heerema, ‘Isa’s kindly, wise, old-fashioned Jesuit philosophy professor at Boston College; and (4) “Mother,” a large, hospitable, bread-baking lady who wears bright dresses, has a parrot on her shoulder and holds continents of common sense in her brain. “Mother” runs a sprawling old Victorian boarding house shaped like a ship on the beachfront in Nahant, Massachusetts, in which she, ‘Isa, Libby, Evan and five other people live. ‘Isa also dialogues on campus with Father Fesser, another professor at Boston College, who has the reputation of being a freethinker rather than a traditional Catholic.

I should also note that several others (including myself) make an appearance in chapter one, and so this chapter, unlike the rest of the book, is written in first person. The other dialogues are fictional, but chapter one is not. It actually happened in one of my classes at Boston College. Only the names have been changed. In fact, this was the incident that first prompted me to write this book.

Please remember, in reading the following dialogues, that the author, as a Christian, does not necessarily agree with everything said by ‘Isa as a Muslim. I simply present him as a consistent and admirable literary character. I have unfairly “stacked the deck”: I have made ‘Isa a very smart and articulate Muslim, an “idealized” Muslim (though he has conspicuous social and psychological faults of insensitivity and bluntness), while I have made the Christians, especially Libby, less than flawless Christians.

They are flawed in both their reason and their faith (like most of us, of course, in many different ways). Libby has a liberal heart, but, unfortunately, also a liberal head. Evan has a conservative head but, unfortunately, also a conservative heart. Fr. Heerema has both a good head and a good heart, but lacks toughness, as ‘Isa lacks gentleness. I stacked the deck like this only to make the point that we all have something to learn from each other.

Without the novel to frame them, the characters in this book are bound to be somewhat thin and flat, even stereotyped. But this book is not a novel. Its point is not to convince its readers of the characters, but of a character – the character trait I find hard to define but easy to show in ‘Isa. It is a character trait I find more obvious in Muslims (and in Jews too) than in Christians.

 

Identifying the Thing We Need to Learn from Muslims

Perhaps I could call it “strength of will” or “spiritual toughness.” The Chinese word te comes close. It is the spiritual power of moral conviction in a person’s soul. I believe this is an admirable and even crucially necessary character trait because it is one of the traits that stands out in ‘Isa’s namesake in the Gospels. (‘Isais Arabic for “Jesus,” a fairly common name in Arabic cultures.) And I am convinced that we need to recapture this character trait if we are going to winsomely win souls and fulfill the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19).

The New Testament (Colossians 1) tells us that Christ is the complete manifestation of the Father, with nothing held back. And therefore Christ was, of course, infinite love. But he was also, for the same reason, infinite power. (But not violence. Violence is not power. It is weakness: the weakness of the bully.) Christ joined power (te) and love (agape) in one. We have tragically separated the two, and in doing so have reduced loving to liking, charity to chumminess, compassion to a passion, passion to politeness, faith to feeling, revealed theology to pop psychology, commandments to values, the Church Militant to the Church Mumbling, and the kingdom of God to Mister Rogers’s Neighborhood.

Perhaps that is one reason why we are fascinated with the “primitive”: because we see there a power we have lost. (And this applies to both Christians and secularists.) Thus our love of movies like Crocodile Dundee, Conan the Barbarian, The Gods Must Be Crazy and Tarzan. And perhaps that is part of our secular civilization’s double attitude of fascination and fear toward Islam.

C. S. Lewis writes about this loss in Reflections on the Psalmswhen he contrasts our modern mindset with the ancient mindset of the Psalms. He says that our

absence of anger, especially that sort of anger which we call indignation, can, in my opinion, be a most alarming symptom. And the presence of indignation may be a good one. … If the Jews cursed more bitterly than the Pagans this was, I think, at least in part because they took right and wrong more seriously. … Though hideously distorted by the human instrument, something of the Divine voice can be heard in these passages. Not, we trust, that God looks upon their enemies as they do: He “desireth not the death of a sinner.” But doubtless He has for the sin of those enemies just the implacable hostility which the poets express. Implacable? Yes, not to the sinner but to sin. It will not be tolerated nor condoned, no treaty will be made with it. That tooth must come out, that right hand amputated, if the man is to be saved. In that way the relentlessness of the Psalms is far nearer to one side of the truth than many modern attitudes which can be mistaken, by those who hold them, for Christian charity. … I can even use the horrible passage in Psalm 137 about dashing the Babylonian babies against the stones. I know things in the inner world which are like babies: the infantile beginnings of small indulgences, small resentments … which woo and wheedle us … whimpering … “you owe yourself some consideration.” Against all such petty infants … the advice of the Psalm is the best. Knock the little bastards’ brains out. And “blessed” he who can, for it’s easier said than done.

G. K. Chesterton wrote about this primitive fear (in St. Thomas Aquinas):

The Fear of the Lord, that is the beginning of wisdom, and therefore belongs to the beginnings, and is felt in the first cold hours before the dawn of civilization: the power that comes out of the wilderness and rides on the whirlwind and breaks the gods of stone; the power before which the eastern nations are prostrate like a pavement; the power before which the primitive prophets run naked and shouting, at once proclaiming and escaping from their god; the fear that is rightly rooted in the beginnings of every religion, true or false: the fear of the Lord, that is the beginning of wisdom; but not the end.

‘Isa Ben Adam can show us that beginning. Even if it is we who can show him the end of wisdom, still he can show us the beginning. And that is our beginning too; and if we have forgotten it and he has not, then we need to let him help us recall it.

We need to preserve this “fear of the Lord” because for any living thing (like a plant), its end is deformed and doomed to death if it is cut off from its beginning. Muslims will not be impressed by Christians who offer them the end of wisdom (the love of God) if that flower is cut off from its roots in the beginning of wisdom (the fear of God).

For the fear of the Lord is present in the end of wisdom as well as the beginning. “The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever,” says the psalmist. It is transformed by love, but not replaced. The tide of love lifts and moves the boats of fear, but does not sink them. Our progress is not simply from fear to love, but from servile fear to loving fear; from naked fear to fear clothed in love, from fear of the terrible things God will do to us to the fear of what terrible things we will do to God. It is the progress from the awe of terror to the awe of adoration.

Great saints are never wimps. They are often made from great sinners: haters and persecutors like St. Paul, or passionate sex addicts like St. Augustine, or rich, spoiled, worldly fops like St. Francis, or even professional killers like St. Ignatius. Saints have to be tough as well as tender because saints are like Christ, and Christ was the toughest and the tenderest man who ever lived. If we have forgotten the toughness, then we have misunderstood the tenderness. It is a tough tenderness. How can we miss the toughness of the two greatest saints of the twentieth century, Mother Teresa and John Paul II? It is a distinctive toughness, a tendertoughness. But it is a toughness.

I think it is very likely that the next St. Paul is now a Muslim, wanting only a new direction for his passion: toward rather than against Christianity. Or perhaps the new St. Paul is a Christian lacking only the passion of a Muslim to energize him, needing to be prodded to jealousy by a Muslim. If this book can help provoke that reaction, its existence is justified.

 

Two Islams, Two Christianities and four wars

There are two Islams in the world today. (1) There is the Islam of the Qur’an, which is one of the great religions of the world. It is a religion of peace (not of pacifism nor of aggression) and of divine justice (not of divine tyranny norof divine intimacy). (2) There is also the Islam of the terrorists, who are murderers and assassins, especially murderers of their fellow Muslims. Shiites and Sunnis hate each other for their “heresies” more intensely than either hates the West. (The London bombings deliberately targeted Muslim neighborhoods.)

Which of these two Islams (of the Qur’an or of the terrorists) will prevail? God only knows. But to whatever extent the first Islam is from God, it will prevail because God will prevail.

I do not see how a Christian can deny that (1) there is much in Islam that is from God, beginning with its essence, total surrender to God’s will. Nor do I see how a Christian can deny that (2) there are things in Islam that are directly contrary to God, beginning with its rejection of Christ as divine Savior, and its ignorance of the amazing “good news” that God is love and has destined us not for eternal servitude but eternal spiritual marriage to him. It is very tempting, if you clearly see either of these two things, to ignore the other one.

There are also two Christianities in the world today. There is (1) the Christianity of the New Testament, and there is (2) the Christianity of accommodation to modernism, egalitarianism, niceness, naturalism, pop psychology, secular humanism, relativism, subjectivism, individualism, “Enlightenment” rationalism or postmodern irrationalism. New converts to the first Christianity are constantly amazed and scandalized by finding many of their clergy to be in love with the second and in fear of the first. Which of the two will prevail? If Christianity is from God (and the Qur’an says it is!), then the first will prevail over the pablum perversions of it.

I do not know which Islam will prevail. But I know that the temporal fate of half the world depends on it. I do know which Christianity will prevail, however, and I know that the eternal fate of all the world depends on it. I do not know the future of Islam, but I do know the future of the Church, for I know Who promised her that the gates of hell would not prevail against her. And if hell itself will not prevail against her, I’m sure that neither the Islamic perversion nor the Christian perversion will prevail against her.

Thus there are not just one but fourconfrontations between Islam and Christianity in the world today. ( I am not speaking of the political and military confrontation between Islam and the West, but of the religious confrontations.)

First, there is the confrontation between terrorist Islam and New Testament Christianity, between the sword and the cross, between murder and sacrifice, between false and true martyrdom. Christianity will win this confrontation because “love is stronger than death” and therefore also stronger than hate; because “there is power, power, wonder working power in the Precious Blood of the Lamb.”

Second, there is the confrontation between Qur’anic Islam and modernist Christianity, between conviction and relativism, between honor and shamelessness, between true and false justice. Islam will win this confrontation (as it is already winning in Europe) for a similar reason: because self-sacrifice is stronger than self-indulgence.

Third, there is the confrontation between terrorist Islam and modernist Christianity, between the sword and relativism. This is also part of Europe’s current struggle. I do not know who will win this confrontation, because both parties are based on falsehood and weakness. But I think Islam will win because modernist Christianity has no will to win. Indeed, it has no will at all.

Fourth, there is the real confrontation, and the only real dialogue, between Qur’anic Islam and New Testament Christianity. This is as old as St. John Damascene. I think this high and honorable dialogue between two high and honorable faiths will continue (though the other three confrontations will get much more media attention) and that something great will come of it. That is the dialogue exemplified by the conversations between ‘Isa and his three Christian friends, especially Fr. Heerema, in this book. In this confrontation, both “sides” will win.

 

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

 

Peter Kreeft. “Introduction.” of Between Allah & Jesus: What Christians Can Learn from Muslims (Downers Grove, IL : InterVarsity Press, 2010): 9-20.

Taken from Between Allah & Jesus: What Christians Can Learn from Muslims by Peter Kreeft.

Used by permission of InterVarsity Press PO Box 1400 Downers Grove, IL 60515.

THE AUTHOR

Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., is a professor of philosophy at Boston College. He is an alumnus of Calvin College (AB 1959) and Fordham University (MA 1961, Ph.D., 1965). He taught at Villanova University from 1962-1965, and has been at Boston College since 1965.


705 thoughts on “What Christians Can Learn from Muslims

  1. A man gives a list of things Christians shouldn’t learn from another religion. He lists 12.

    One of them is jealousy… uhuh? Yeah, jealousy of another civilization is not good I suppose. He gives others. Ideas about God. But in there are two others that slot in a Number 5 and 10. What were they again?

    Preventing apostasy by murdering apostates
    Terrorism.

    Yeah, I almost forgot about them.

    Come on. Western people don’t care so much about HInduism or Buddhism or Foot washing Baptists. But they do care when people are shot, beheaded, raped, set on fire, and have planes flown into buildings.

    What are Muslim people ACTIVELY doing right now to stop their brothers from killing, injuring and raping innocent people.
    Surely, this is the most pressing need for Muslim leaders to be engaged in right now. Christians get slain in churches, girls get raped and Christians are silent – or respond by wanting to study the religion of peace more. Someone makes an insulting comic and SOME muslims (I said “some” so calm down) are ready to kill people who just happen to belong to the same country.

    “I do not see how a Christian can deny that (1) there is much in Islam that is from God,”

    Then, he needs to get better at seeing.

  2. You can be thankful Q that not every Muslim is a terrorist or seeking to behead Christians as portrayed in the media.

    Especially as we’d be stuffed if Indonesia ever decided to wipe out the Aussie infidels.

    Do you think all Muslims advocate the shooting of Christians, burning of churches and raping of girls.

    They of course have their own small number of nutbags and extremists like we do. Have you forgotten about Rev Paisley, the IRA and Ireland?

    Btw why is Bali such a great holiday destination given that it is Islamist.

    Oh and no one cares about Buddhism and Hinduism because the people who practise these faiths don’t live on large deposits of oil.

  3. Bones, of course I don’t believe that every Muslim is a terrorist.

    And you missed my point. If a small percentage of Baptists were killing people in more than one country over a series of years, I’d be telling Baptists to control their people!

    Okay, let me put it this way and maybe people will understand.

    I live overseas. If a white Baptist blew up a building in my country, I would totally understand people being wary of white people and Christians. If this continued and kept going in more countries, then how would you expect people to think about Christians?

    I would be happy to be searched more than the old Asian lady locals, I’d even volunteer to report to a police station if it meant helping to catch or identity the people involved in terrorism.

    No problem.

    And you bet, that I’d be telling Christians that no matter how much people insult Jesus, Moses or the Pope, you can’t kill or maim innocent people.

    I wouldn’t want people throwing stones at me because I’m white – but I could understand people being scared if every month (or every week) they saw Baptists blowing people up on TV.

    And I wouldn’t be telling the locals that I condemn the violence but understand the feelings of those offended and that retribution is to be expected.

    btw, do you no much about the rape and murder of Christians in Indonesia? It would or should make you cry.

    And I don’t know whether they have oil there or not.

    “They of course have their own small number of nutbags and extremists like we do.”

    It’s nothing like the extremists that “we” have.

    And furthermore, if the Muslims of this world kept there rage to Paisley, then we’d be a lot better off. Paisley never flew a plane into a building. Paisley never blew himself up taking out dozens of kids with him.

    As for the IRA, I totally condemn and abhor the violence they committed. I should probably also mention that I’m not Catholic.

    Nobody I know has ever said that ALL Muslims want to behead people.

    Some of you are like pyromaniacs in the field of straw men you so frantically construct.

  4. And here’s the thing. The more zealous or extreme Christians in Australia become what do they do? Preach on the streets? Buy lots of HIllsong CD’s? Go on a march for Jesus? Try to heal the sick on the streets? Dangerous stuff like that. So moderate Christians getting radical I don’t see anywhere near a problem.

    But when young moderate Muslims get more “fundamentalist”, what happens? Go ask the moderate Muslims.

  5. You might find the majority of Orangemen in Northern Ireland are fundamentalist Christians. Paisley certainly was.

    Paisley was responsible for more deaths than any extremist by the way by stalling peace talks, advocating sectarianism and hatred of Catholics through his religious venom and justifying it through the Bible. And there’d still be people blowing each other up over there if he had his way.

    Have you done any research, Q, on Christian militia in the US. I think you’ll find they are growing.

    Anyone who thinks their holy book justifies genocide or violence is a complete wacko and their god isn’t worth following. Christian, Jew or Muslim.

    We do try to tell our extremists to settle down, like those who hate gays, but they just fob us of us unbelievers and liberal compromisers.

    I dare say the Fundamentalist Muslim extremists are the same.

    There are a lot of similarities between fundamentalist Muslims and Christians.

  6. So the author considers the problem to be, not Islamic militancy, the cowardly killing, rape and displacement of innocents for not sharing extreme Islamic views, but the attitude of the media towards Muslims and Christians.

    I refute that, even though there are aspects of leftist ideological journalism which is clearly averse to religion.

    The media, as I see it, has largely exacerbated the problem with Islamic militancy by showing its fear of reprisal for genuine reporting of the clear obscenities of some of the violence and outspoken vitriol and incitement of the most aggressive of the militants, whilst, at the same time, using ultra-outsoken fundamentalist Christian groups such as Westboro Baptist, as examples of Christian thought and attempted to associate this group with all Christians.

    Hence the term ‘nutbags’ is a neo-medianic reference to all Bible believing Christians, as if they too are holding the placards alongside Westboro.

    The media has, on the one hand, been afraid to report Islam accurately, whilst considering the Bible Belt Republican affiliated Christians of the US to be the enemy of good sense.

    But this in itself does not place the blame for bus-bombings, café-bombings, suicide attacks, flying aircraft into skyscrapers, burning vehicles, killing ambassadors, attacking US embassies, rioting in city centres, threatening newspapers editors, placing fatwas on authors and film-makers, murdering film producers, the list goes on, on the media itself.

    The media should hang its head in shame, yes, at its overwhelming biases, but it is certainly not to blame for the militancy, unless you can claim that it has, by its silence, encouraged the militants to more aggressive acts than if it were to push for action against the evil.

  7. On the other issue in the post, strictly speaking, there’s nothing we can, or should, learn from Islam.

    The four things he claims we should mostly learn are:

    1. Faithfulness in prayer, fasting and almsgiving
    2. The sacredness of the family and children and hospitality
    3. The absoluteness of moral laws and of the demand to be just and charitable
    4. The absoluteness of God and the need for absolute submission, surrender and obedience (“islam”) to him.

    Why would we even pay any attention to these things when the entire concept of Islam didn’t come until the mid to late 15th century, when Christianity had already been established for almost 1500 years?

    Surely Islam took those things from the, then, Catholic concept of religion and applied t to their own. And there is much to suggest that Islam borrowed from Catholicism in many aspects.

    But the Christians had held to these values, in a rather purer form, since the beginning. Why would we have to learn anything from Islam?

    These are contrived points in a contrived piece.

    Our one and only influence is God Almighty, not the ‘god’ of Islam. Our submission is not ‘islam’. It is to the Lord God Almighty through His commands to Love God with all our heart, mind and being, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.

    These two commandments set us up for everything we should know and do as Christians.

    We need know nothing whatsoever about Islam to follow Christ.

  8. Correction. Islam entered far earlier than I wrote. 7th century? But the idea is the same. Christians were already being Christian before Islam arrived.

    We learn from the writings of the New Testament, not from any other religion.

  9. There is no comparison Bones. There are militant Hindu groups too. ANd violent ones. An Australian missionary and his kids were burned alive by them. But that’s in one country. And Hindus are not breaking out in violence in many different countries.

    Would you like to go county by country starting with the one that are predominantly Muslim and note the problem of human rights, then go to the countries where they are minorities but take violence with them? I could be here all night.

    ANd you want to compare that with Paisley? Talk to the people killed in so many countries by Muslim extremists and ask if they’d like to swap Paisley for them.

    Orangemen? They’re not causing trouble in many countries that I know of.

    American militia? How many Christians have they raped lately in other countries? Blown up any churches in Africa recently?

    No, we have a problem. And it’s not solved by talking about how wonderful Islam is.

    Paisley never shot the Pope. Never told people to kill him. He called him the anti-christ and got stuff thrown at him for it.

    Crazy stuff. But don’t worry, when Paisley’s disciples start calling for assassinations worldwide, I’ll be talking about them too.

    No comparison Bones.

  10. @Bones

    You sound just like the Christ-hating atheists on the news blogs. They use the exact same arguments and post the same videos. I’m not accusing you of being a Christ-hater or an atheist, but I find it very, very sad that a believer would be saying the exact same things as those kinds of people

  11. Hence the term ‘nutbags’ is a neo-medianic reference to all Bible believing Christians, as if they too are holding the placards alongside Westboro.

    The problem with moderates is they’re too boring to get in the News. It’s only the crazies who ever make it.

  12. You see Roundhouse uses the same argument when the crazies in his religion are pointed out to attack the ones exposing them.

    The Islamic fundamentalists are the same.

  13. Steve, didn’t you post on another thread that you know Muslims.

    Why aren’t they going around raping people?

    All of the Muslims I know are well settled into our country.

    I trust my son to play with his Muslim’s friend’s family without getting his head cut off.

  14. @Bones

    “You see Roundhouse uses the same argument when the crazies in his religion are pointed out to attack the ones exposing them.”

    An homs slide off me Bones. Anyway, I thought my “religion”and yours was the same.

  15. Didn’t see all of that youtube video. But that is your evidence of what?

    What are you trying to say? Muslim extremists have killed thousands of innocent people. Church bombings, rapes, murders, suicide bombings, beheadings etc etc etc. And because there is a man (or two) in the US who want to burn a Holy Book of another religion, you think that I as a Christian/atheist/buddhist can’t express my worry about Muslim extremists?

    I’ve seen anti-Christian people throwing, burning, ridiculing, mocking in song, making inflammatory movies about the BIble – for decades now. Even angry emails, or pray-ins are attacked as fanatical.

    But when Muslims bomb and bash and kill – Bones will be there to say “Aha – we are just as bad”

    To me that’s borderline insanity. Really. Sorry to put it like that.

  16. “I trust my son to play with his Muslim’s friend’s family without getting his head cut off.”

    And if the group of friends he is with make a weird mockup of Islam youtube video after a drunken party in a few years (not saying he will), and word gets out that he was part of it – would you still feel safe?

  17. “All of the Muslims I know are well settled into our country.”

    …………………. We are not talking about the Muslims you know.

    Anyway, tell them from me to get all their brethren together and have a rally condemning all the Muslim violence in the world.

  18. “I trust my son to play with his Muslim’s friend’s family without getting his head cut off.”

    Laying aside the obvious silliness of the cutting off heads part I wouldn’t actually allow my kids to play with Muslim kids (outside of the school playground of course). Islam is dangerous, so just like I wouldn’t allow my son to play with a kid from a household that actively partakes in drugs or is in constant trouble with the law, I wouldn’t let my son play with Muslim kids

  19. What amuses me, Bones, is that you did exactly what I said the media does right after I’d written it! You put up the most extreme example you could find! LOL! 😀

    You’re one of them!

    Tell us what you think of the Islamists who rioted on our streets, Bones. Our streets! What did Australia have to do with anything?

    Why is the US warning US citizens in Australia to stay away from city centres this weekend?

    Are you not a little bit angry about this affront to our liberty, or US citizens freedom?

    Tell us what you think of the Islamists who murdered the Ambassador in Libya and others. tell us what you think of the Islamists who blew up the London tubes, the madrid trains, the New York skyscrapers, the bali pubs, the Jerusalem buses and cafés, assassinations, murders, rapes all in the name of….

    Tell us what you think, Bones.

    What can we learn from these fanatics?

    Do you have a contemporary Christian equivalent for any of this?

    Who are the real crazies here, Bones?

  20. But when Muslims bomb and bash and kill – Bones will be there to say “Aha – we are just as bad”

    Anyone who thinks their holy book justifies genocide or violence is a complete wacko and their god isn’t worth following. Christian, Jew or Muslim.

  21. @Bones

    “Anyone who thinks their holy book justifies genocide or violence is a complete wacko ”

    And you’ve described Islam in one sentence. Well done!

  22. The contemporary Christian equivalent is invading a country on a false pretext, and getting an array of Evangelical pope-wannabees to give you their blessing.

    Its sending drones to take out people you dont think should be alive. Extra-judicial renditions and executions in other countries.

    Its in funding and supporting regimes known for their poor human-rights records.

    And its in fanatically believing they are bringing freedom and liberty to the world.

  23. Bones, do you remember Rushdie? This isn’t a new thing.

    Christians get upset and offended about critical or mocking books, songs etc, and they are further attacked for saying anything.

    Rushdie? How safe do you think he feels?

    His book was translated into Japanese. The poor academic who did the translation work (simply as a job) was murdered. Do you know what the response of a leader in the Muslim community was?

    Like to guess? He was a well-respected businessman too. Probaby someone you’d let your kids play with.

    His comment? It was the fault of the Japanese police.

    Oh yes, he condemns violence…..but he stated clearly that the police should have known that there would be someone who felt it their duty to kill someone who insulted like that.

    So…it was the fault of the police. Somehow, the guys in secular Japan should have been more sensitive.

    Unbelievable.

  24. What amuses me, Bones, is that you did exactly what I said the media does right after I’d written it! You put up the most extreme example you could find!

    You’re an idiot Roundhouse.

    I’d be more worried if my kid played with yours.

    Yes Islam, you need to be more tolerant. Unlike some Christians who hate tolerance.

  25. “Anyone who thinks their holy book justifies genocide or violence is a complete wacko ”

    That includes the Old Testament.

  26. @Bones

    I didn’t write the quote that you attribute to me, Steve did. Anyway, Christians aren’t called to be tolerant. That is a myth, propagated by atheists. We are called to love. I love Muslims in the love of the Lord. I don’t however trust them one bit.

  27. @Bones

    “That includes the Old Testament.”

    The Old Testament doesn’t justify genocide or violence, but that’s an argument for another time

  28. Fundamentalist Muslims say the same. They aren’t called to be tolerant either. Cept they’ll cut off your head and rape your wife.

    Actually I’m getting pretty intolerant too.

    I’m intolerant of intolerance.

    Roundhouse, how many Muslims do you know, besides Osama Bin Ladan?

  29. Et tu wazza!

    Bones,
    You just can’t brig yourself to say it can you!

    I’m not surprised by Greg anymore. h’ll defend Islam to the hilt because, to him, Christianity isn’t good enough and Christians are even worse. I’ve written off dialogue with the man.

    But I put to you an opportunity to show some kind of passionate response to the very current atrocities which are taking place in our communities, yours and mine – Sydney and London, and cities all over the planet, over a dopey cartoon or a really stupid 14 minute YouTube movie, whereby militant men and women of Islam can take control of a centre and turn it into a propaganda exploit, which threatens the rest of the world and declares jihad on all civilisation.

    yet you will not say one thing about it. Nothing. Even when asked.

    On the other hand, you will come up withy some crackpot religious Christian who wants to… what was that? Do something ne=ot very nice to a koran?

    You point our attention to a noisy, yet relatively well controlled rally of Christians who are incensed by the affront of the murderous branch of Islam.;

    But nothing, absolutely nothing to say about the actual atrocities or those involved in them.

    Cone on. You can do better than this.

    What do you think of the murderers of the US Ambassador, etc?

  30. @Bones

    Tolerant means (or used to mean, until the lefties changed the definition) “the practice of deliberately allowing or permitting a thing of which one disapproves.” I won’t deliberately allow or permit something of which I disapprove. It’s my right, as both a citizen of a democracy, but more importantly, as a believer in Jesus.

  31. I don’t however trust them one bit.

    Yeah I get the vibe. I think the same about fundamentalist Christians.

    Some people think the same about blacks and gays.

  32. “Yes Islam, you need to be more tolerant.”

    Finally! But there are degrees of tolerance – all I want them to do is stop killing, bombing, beheading, raping, destroying, throwing bottles at police, and maybe let the Christians in Muslim countries have the same freedom that Muslims have in Australia.
    And – get the clerics to stop preaching hatred and encouraging violent acts.

    It starts with the top.

    If they want to preach, hand out tracts, that’s fine. Just, try a little harder to show that your religion is a religion of peace.

    ANd stop with this “Don’t mock our religion of peace or we’ll kill you” stuff.

  33. What do you think of the murderers of the US Ambassador, etc?

    For the third time.

    Anyone who thinks their holy book justifies genocide or violence is a complete wacko and their god isn’t worth following. Christian, Jew or Muslim.

  34. It’s my right, as both a citizen of a democracy, but more importantly, as a believer in Jesus.

    I think you’ll find there are Christian communities in Muslim countries serving their Muslim compatriots who thankfully don’t share your form of ideological bastardry. And yes they have come under persecution but they keep serving.

    The Jews thought the same about the Samaritans by the way.

  35. I don’t agree with Roundhouse on this. I work with Muslims and have neighbours who are Muslim, and they are not bad people. How will we ever witness if we don’t mix? We should be constantly putting our true faith to the test by engaging with others. It will stand and fall on our witness and how true we are to the gospel.

    We are supposed to mix with all people. Our children should be able to mix with other children or they will never learn how to cope with the variations when they grow up. If they are well brought up on Christ they will know the difference.

    Personal choices on this, I know, but I would never stop my children mixing with people from other religious unless I knew there was a threat to their wellbeing.

  36. @Bones

    “Some people think the same about blacks and gays.”

    I see this strawman on every news blog whenever this subject of Islam arises. When all other arguments fail, throw in a black or gay! That’ll fix ’em!

  37. Bones, you’ve just used a provocative sidestep as an answer.

    You cannot bring yourself to condemn the actions of a lunatic faction without attempting to find some moral equivalence.

    That os a weakness, not a strength.

    You politicise your own opinion and negate any engagement in finding a solution.

  38. @Steve

    “I would never stop my children mixing with people from other religious unless I knew there was a threat to their wellbeing.”

    My kids have Hindu friends, as do I, and I have several Buddhist friends. I also have several gay atheist friends. Not one of them, their Holy writings, their friends, or their leaders threaten to behead me for being a white, Anglo-saxon heterosexual Christian male. The Koran encourages Muslims to lie and deceive (Taqiyya) in order to advance Islam and to defeat non-Muslims. That’s enough for me not to trust any of them.

  39. I should say, if I ever interact with a Muslim I am polite, courteous and treat them as I would any other person with whom I come into contact with.

  40. Steve, Islamic Fundamentalism is evil.

    Is that strong enough?

    (Even taking into account historical injustices, prejudices, ethnic and political considerations)

    As is any form of fundamentalism which demonises others.

  41. Fair enough, Roundhouse. I’m glad you clarified that. Hopefully Bones will acknowledge your qualification of the statement you made…

    …without blaming the Christians and Jews! 😀

  42. Very good, Bones!

    Now to help change the situation which is developing in your homeland, you will need to arouse some passionate response to the stupidity displayed by the Islamic militants after Friday prayers.

    Something similar to the indignation you have shown towards Jim Wallace would show some kind of passion exists in your hart towards what is a developing problem on your shores!

  43. I see this strawman on every news blog whenever this subject of Islam arises. When all other arguments fail, throw in a black or gay! That’ll fix ‘em!

    Yeah cos it’s the exact same argument. Some people think the same about Catholics.

    I should say, if I ever interact with a Muslim I am polite, courteous and treat them as I would any other person with whom I come into contact with.

    That’s nice. Must be a good witness that. I’ll only trust you if you come to Jesus.

  44. What was crazy about Greg’s post was that if a james Dobson type talked about God’s blessing on America, or the rise of the west due to Biblical principles he’d be all over it, and Bones fingers would cramp up with the rebuttals. But some Muslim community leader at a Muslim fundraiser in Bankstown …..talks about the glory of Islam and how glittery it was and he faithfully copies and pastes it like it’s the ultimate “take that!” moment.

    Gay rights and Islam banzai! Down with fundamentalist Christians.

    I just wonder if some of the guys realize here that if gays and Muslims get stronger, push will probably come to shove one day.

    Is the irony not lost on anyone..?

  45. Trust – is a tough one. In some religions, it’s acceptable to lie in certain situations – especially to outsiders. I won’t name the groups or I’ll just get in more trouble.

  46. Muslims try to right wrongs after protest

    It has been a tough week for Sydney’s Muslim community.
    Following violent protests in the city last Saturday, Muslim leaders have battled to repair the damage done to the community’s reputation and image, which they describe as harder than in the aftermath of the Cronulla riots in 2005.
    Hundreds of threats and messages of hate have been directed at people and organisations, the president of the Lebanese Muslim Association, Samier Dandan, revealed this week.
    But through the tension and strain, small stories of generosity and kindness have emerged as Muslims try to right the wrongs of the past six days.

    A 30-year-old Muslim woman, Zahra Al-Shadidi, hand-delivered a bunch of flowers to police officers at the Surry Hills police station on Monday.
    The next day, Ridhwan Hannan, a 27-year-old accountant, started a Facebook group to raise money for the officers injured in Saturday’s violent demonstration.
    Yesterday, a community group held an event organised through Facebook called “The Muslim Community to Thank the Police” at which it encouraged people to walk into their local police station and to say thank you.
    Mariam Veiszadeh, a lawyer and community rights advocate, said the idea of “guilt by association” was a common occurrence for “everyday” Muslims, who were often at the forefront of backlash in times like this and felt compelled to alter the image being portrayed of them.
    “I’ve experienced it time and time again, post 9/11, post Cronulla, post any time a crime is committed by a Muslim person,” she said. “Whether we like it or not there is that association so we feel compelled to … provide an alternative narrative that is reflective of the wider Muslim community.”
    Ms Veiszadeh started a Twitter hashtag campaign called #SmileAtAMuslim this week to encourage people not to victimise or stereotype Muslims in the community.
    “It’s just something small but it can help social cohesion and social harmony,” she said, adding that a woman who smiled at her on her way home this week made her day.
    Mr Hannan, who has raised $1000 for the NSW Police Legacy Charity, wants the money to go to officers who were injured, traumatised or had to take time off work because of Saturday’s protest.
    He said the protesters were his “brothers and sisters in faith” and there is a compulsion to want to say sorry on their behalf.
    “I was really, really upset and a little bit physically sick when I saw the images of the protest,” he said. “As a person of faith with them, I feel responsible as well because there’s a part of me that hasn’t gone out and helped them. They might be offended by that statement but that’s how I truly feel.”
    Ms Al-Shadidi said it “broke her heart” to see images of police officers with blood on their faces during the riot, so she bought a bunch of flowers to say sorry.
    “I felt really sad and sorry that people were getting hurt in the name of my religion so I just wanted to apologise and say that’s not who we are,” she said.
    A culture and society academic, Dr Emma Waterton, said “guilt by association” affected people bound by commonalities such as religion, ethnicity and nationalism and was felt more strongly by people in the minority.
    “There is a tendency still to presume that communities are defined by similarities and they’re not necessarily,” Dr Waterton, from the University of Western Sydney, said.
    An officer from the Australian Federal Police and a NSW riot squad officer were hit on the head and taken to St Vincent’s Hospital for treatment on Saturday.
    Four other police officers also sustained injury as a result of the incident.
    Two men have been arrested for assaulting the officers.
    Yesterday, senior Muslim leaders met police to reaffirm their support for their actions during and after the protests.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/muslims-try-to-right-wrongs-after-protest-20120921-26bof.html#ixzz276EbVoXB

  47. “Something similar to the indignation you have shown towards Jim Wallace would show some kind of passion exists in your hart towards what is a developing problem on your shores!”

    Ouch!! 🙂
    On that note, I’m out of here. That was a doozey!

  48. What are you talking about Q?

    I’m not an Islamist scholar and a lot of what Greg said rang true especially about hospitals, and being leaders in the fields especially in mathematics.

    He asked you for a rebuttal.

    Did you provide one?

    I just wonder if some of the guys realize here that if gays and Muslims get stronger, push will probably come to shove one day.

    Is the irony not lost on anyone..?

    Decisions. Decisions.

    Support the gays against Islam.

    Support the Muslim intolerance of homosexuality.

    Maybe we should kill them both.

  49. Just on Jim Wallace, is it Ok for a Christian leader and political activist to use psychological studies which are obviously fraudulant from a discredited source?

    I won’t hold my breath with getting an answer.

  50. “Steve, Islamic Fundamentalism is evil.”
    Wow.

    “Is that strong enough?”
    It would be if nothing followed….

    (Even taking into account historical injustices, prejudices, ethnic and political considerations)”
    Here we go!

    “As is any form of fundamentalism which demonises others.”

    uh huh….for example?

    Bones, you are a riot!

  51. I actually get on well with Catholics. I have many friends who would consider themselves Catholic, even thought they don’t, strictly speaking practice their ‘religion’. Nominal. But there are some who are clearly believers in the same Jesus of the Bible. It’s a huge church, with many colours and tribes.

    What I object to is the false dogma.

    There are no Muslims, however nice they are, who are believers in the same Jesus, however, unless they are recent converts who have had a visitation from Christ, of whom, I hear from Indonesian Pastors, there are many in Muslim lands.

    Buddhists, too, are having visitations. I spoke to one, a Chinese businessman, in Jakarta a couple of years ago, who came forward for prayer in a meeting. He told me he was a Buddhist and, in a dream the night before, Jesus had told him to come to the meeting. He asked what he should do next. He was shaking! Trembling! I took him to lunch, prayed for him to receive Christ, and introduced him to the Pastor (for aftercare, Greg!). Awesome God!

    We should not limit God when considering what to do with these controversial religious issues. He had the same problem with the Jewish religious authorities in Jesus day on earth, and with the Apostles in Jerusalem. But thousands were covered anyway.

    We are to be witnesses to people.

    But I don’t think we should lose our passion for justice when militants threaten our cities.

    At least have the passion to pray and be ready to give a reason for our hope, even if you can’t have the passion to be upset by the reluctance of our Government or media to act courageously to protect citizens.

  52. “lot of what Greg said rang true especially about hospitals, and being leaders in the fields especially in mathematics.”

    Hospitals and maths. From that we heard that they were the most advanced civilization on the planet for 1000 years, and were against destruction…?

    “He asked you for a rebuttal.”
    Where would I start?

    Ciao!

  53. Fair enough, Roundhouse. I’m glad you clarified that. Hopefully Bones will acknowledge your qualification of the statement you made…

    Have you thought about that?

    Well done Roundhouse for justifying your mistrust of Muslims.

    How does that work with you and the wider Muslim community?

    Is that what you’ve found?

  54. Bones,
    Muslims try to right wrongs after protest

    Very good!

    But always ‘after’ the event, eh!

    Same with every car burning, city wrecking event ‘after’ Friday prayers, eh, Bones!

    Are you seeing a pattern here?

    I asked the question once before.

    Why ‘after’ Friday prayers, Bones? Have you thought about it? Why not on the Wednesday after the cartoon or movie was released? The movie, apparently, has been on YouTube since July! Why wait? Until ‘after’ Friday prayers on 9/11?

    Why ‘after’ prayers, Bones?

    Could it have something to do with what is being preached during prayers. do you think?

    Do you think there’s anything in the old adage that prevention is better than cure? Why not preach during Frida prayers that it would be wrong to burn cars and wreck city centres, kill Ambassadors and destroy embassies?

    There’s something missing here, isn’t there, Bones! Something very important to the whole scenario.

  55. Bones, I gave my personal views on interaction with the Muslim community earlier and it stands. I find the majority of Muslims to be approachable. Even with the gospel. Many want answers not confrontation.

    And have had many conversations about God and Jesus, and even prayed for Muslims for haling and the like. One has a greed to come to a meeting next week.

    I disagree with Roundhouse’s view, but I felt he qualified it quite well enough for you to accept that his was more akin to an uneducated fear rather than the ideology of a bigot, as you seem to be attempting to apply.

  56. I remember commenting that Jim Wallace should never have engaged in this debate the way he did, but Greg removed the comment thread so I can’t exactly remember what I said, so no, he shouldn’t quote false information, if that is what he did. But he is still entitled to a view. I think he should back off, personally. I also know that his politics aren’t what you think they are, so please don’t attempt to nail his overall Christian view as that of a conservative.

    But let’s get back to your reluctance to show any form of indignation towards these fellows and their gals who are tearing up the streets of our cities for no more than threatening reasons.

    Ironically, the author of the post above gives exactly why you should be more passionate about these things and seeking less of a moral equivalent position when quoting Lewis and Chesterton:

    C. S. Lewis writes…

    absence of anger, especially that sort of anger which we call indignation, can, in my opinion, be a most alarming symptom. And the presence of indignation may be a good one. … If the Jews cursed more bitterly than the Pagans this was, I think, at least in part because they took right and wrong more seriously. … Though hideously distorted by the human instrument, something of the Divine voice can be heard in these passages. Not, we trust, that God looks upon their enemies as they do: He “desireth not the death of a sinner.” But doubtless He has for the sin of those enemies just the implacable hostility which the poets express. Implacable? Yes, not to the sinner but to sin. It will not be tolerated nor condoned, no treaty will be made with it. That tooth must come out, that right hand amputated, if the man is to be saved. In that way the relentlessness of the Psalms is far nearer to one side of the truth than many modern attitudes which can be mistaken, by those who hold them, for Christian charity. … I can even use the horrible passage in Psalm 137 about dashing the Babylonian babies against the stones. I know things in the inner world which are like babies: the infantile beginnings of small indulgences, small resentments … which woo and wheedle us … whimpering … “you owe yourself some consideration.” Against all such petty infants … the advice of the Psalm is the best. Knock the little bastards’ brains out. And “blessed” he who can, for it’s easier said than done.

    G. K. Chesterton wrote…

    The Fear of the Lord, that is the beginning of wisdom, and therefore belongs to the beginnings, and is felt in the first cold hours before the dawn of civilization: the power that comes out of the wilderness and rides on the whirlwind and breaks the gods of stone; the power before which the eastern nations are prostrate like a pavement; the power before which the primitive prophets run naked and shouting, at once proclaiming and escaping from their god; the fear that is rightly rooted in the beginnings of every religion, true or false: the fear of the Lord, that is the beginning of wisdom; but not the end.

    Being morally passive about the riotous acts of militants over worthless cartoons and movies and yet aggressively indignant about a Christian leader’s views on homosexual marriage tells me you have a misplaced sense of justice.

    It tells me you do have a passionate nature, but it is selective and religiously political and sectarian.

  57. I disagree with Roundhouse’s view, but I felt he qualified it quite well enough for you to accept that his was more akin to an uneducated fear rather than the ideology of a bigot, as you seem to be attempting to apply.

    Not unlike the Nazis using fear to discriminate against Jews. I mean if they did it well enough it might be OK.

  58. Not that I’m advocating that you should dash infants’ brains out.

    You know some Christians have done that.

    Because it’s in the Bible.

  59. Ye, well, I’m not following your line of thought, there. I don’t think I want to, either!

    I think stubbornness of position is sometimes a strength, but there are occasions when it is just another extension of pride.

    Refusing to directly acknowledge the responsibility of the militants for their own poor actions is one of these occasions.

  60. It tells me you do have a passionate nature, but it is selective and religiously political and sectarian.

    Simple. I’m a Christian. I’m more offended by my own nutbags than others. I mean scientologists are nutbags as well and dangerous in a more insidious kind of way. Yet I’m not going ape about them.

    I imagine that moderate Muslims feel the same about their fanatical counterparts..

    And yes my nephew just returned from Afghanistan and yes some of his mates were killed last week.

  61. Btw if Roundhouse is justified in describing Muslims is liars what does it say of Jesus who said the Jews were of their father the devil. Nazis justified condemnation of Jews based on none other than Jesus’s words.

  62. Oh I see. You’ve translated uneducated fear into wanton and deadly bigotry anyway!

    I find that despicably offensive in view of the conversation.

  63. You’ve translated uneducated fear into wanton and deadly bigotry anyway!

    Yeah funny that. Because it is.

    I mean if I said Don’t trust Jews or blacks or anyone else of course I’d say you’re a bigot.

    Ah but you can say that about Muslims if you can justify it.

    That makes sense.

    To someone.

  64. You masquerade as a moderate, but you’re far more of a wanton and deadly bigot in your way than Roundhouse.

    That is a shameful accusation.

    A real moderate would engage Roundhouse, not condemn him.

    A real moderate would confront the wickedness of the religious militant, regardless of their religion, not support their cause by defending their right to evil whilst attacking those who do confront them.

    A real moderate sees both sides of an argument, but refuses to compromise on truth.

    You’re showing signs of being a fake moderate. Not a good look.

  65. And using Roundhouse’s logic this story is not to be trusted.

    IMAMS at all 36 Melbourne mosques have been advised to warn Muslims at morning and evening prayers against violent protests such as the one in Sydney on Saturday about a film ridiculing Islam.

    After all you can’t trust Muslims.

  66. That is a shameful accusation.

    You’re right it is shameful and disgusting that people are so bigoted in their views of people they have never even met. But hey you supported Roundhouse in his deviant view.

    You know many Muslims think the same about Christians.

  67. I think you’ll find ‘uneducated fear’ behind all bigotry whether Nazi, Apartheid, gays or whatever.

    The fear of those I’ve never met but heard others talk about.

    A fear based on my own prejudices.

  68. You’d say to your child, “Now stop being a Nazi and grow up, son. That man with the dark/light skin is just the same red-blooded person as you, only with a different pigment. We all bleed red blood, son. Have no fear! Come. Let’s invite him around for supper so we can meet him.”

    Those were my clumsy terms, by the way, not Roundhouse’s. He has yet to confirm or challenge it.

    Wat I meant was that maybe he hasn’t spent time with Muslims and his only connection is with what he sees in the news, where people with Islamic backgrounds are tearing up cities, threatening people outside courts where their mates are refusing to recognise the courts which are trying them for conspiracy to destroy national monuments, where people from many nations over the last twenty years have been killed maimed, stoned, raped, burned and displaced for the sake of the religion which is being thrust before our eyes by a growing band of militants, who, if we hadn’t defended our and other nation’s sovereignty, taking the fight to the militants, on their soil, would undoubtedly feel free to engage us on our own, and that, every time we go through an airport, or customs, we have to remove our garments, and go through intense security in case one of these monsters is carrying a device which could take us all out in mid-flight.

    So when we see these guys in their traditional gear walking he streets, unless we engage with them, we are going to consider that person to be a potential threat to us or our children, because that bis exactly what the militants want us to think, and it works, just like a Coca-Cola sign works, or a MacDonald’s ‘M’, because they have corporatised terror and franchised it to our streets in the iconic clothing of every Muslim we meet, knowingly or unknowingly, just like every person wearing a Nike ‘T’ shirt or shoes is not a sportsman or woman but they advertise the brand and its ideology.

    So don’t blame people for their fears, or reticence. It is intended.

    Blame the source.

  69. Bones,
    hey you supported Roundhouse in his deviant view.

    Did I? Where?

    Bones!

    I said twice I did not!

    1. I don’t agree with Roundhouse on this. I work with Muslims and have neighbours who are Muslim, and they are not bad people. How will we ever witness if we don’t mix? We should be constantly putting our true faith to the test by engaging with others. It will stand and fall on our witness and how true we are to the gospel.

    https://signposts02.wordpress.com/2012/09/21/what-christians-can-learn-from-muslims/#comment-37430

    2. I disagree with Roundhouse’s view, but I felt he qualified it quite well enough for you to accept that his was more akin to an uneducated fear rather than the ideology of a bigot, as you seem to be attempting to apply.

    Earlier, at 9.12 pm, but WordPress only allows one link.

    Please correct your claim.

  70. You are the deviant here, Bones.

    I’m sorry to say that you have deliberately and wantonly twisted both my words and Roundhouse’s opinion to create some kind of case which doesn’t exist.

    What could be your motives for this?

    Beats me! *scratches head*

  71. Wat I meant was that maybe he hasn’t spent time with Muslims and his only connection is with what he sees in the news,

    We are in the age of the internet. It only took me 5 minutes to find the truth about ‘lying’ Muslims. What I find is people only find what they want to find like from other right wing Christians.

    Do you think people should believe about Christianity from the News?

  72. So, let me get this straight.

    A new kid comes into your class and displays what is clearly an uneducated fear of going into recess with the other boys because he doesn’t know them, was bullied at his previous school, and is reticent to meet anyone from this school in case it happens again.

    So you think he is showing Nazi tendencies!

    So you read him the same riot act you just did with Roundhouse!

    You’re a nut!

  73. That’s ok Steve, keep defending your mate and his bigotry by attacking me. I’m used to it. The bigots, crazies and loonies get a free ride with you guys. I’m interested in what Roundhouse says to the link I posted.

    But I won’t hold my breath.

  74. @Steve

    “was more akin to an uneducated fear rather than the ideology of a bigot,”

    I appreciate your support, but I can assure you I am not uneducated, and I am not fearful, unless you count my fear for the way of life that we know in the West being changed irreparably. I have spent many, many hours studying the Muslim issue facing the world, and more crucially, the church. Unlike many of the people I engage with on other sites (and it appears here too), I have some knowledge of the issue, having read many different books and listened to former Muslims speak on the exact issues I have raised here. Time was I would wrap my views in the oily skin of “tolerance”, just like Bones, Greg and wazza do, making excuses for their beliefs and naively believing everything that the Imams said about their followers desire for “peace”, and how the atrocities were perpetrated by only a small fundamentalist hard-line minority. Well, no more. I have had my eyes opened. It ain’t going to be pretty my friends.

  75. Lying and cheating in the Arab world is not really a moral matter but a method of safeguarding honor and status, avoiding shame, and at all times exploiting possibilities, for those with the wits for it, deftly and expeditiously to convert shame into honor on their own account and vice versa for their opponents. If honor so demands, lies and cheating may become absolute imperatives.” [David Pryce-Jones, “The Closed Circle” An interpretation of the Arabs, p4]

    “No dishonor attaches to such primary transactions as selling short weight, deceiving anyone about quality, quantity or kind of goods, cheating at gambling, and bearing false witness. The doer of these things is merely quicker off the mark than the next fellow; owing him nothing, he is not to be blamed for taking what he can.” [David Pryce-Jones, “The Closed Circle”, p38]

    The word “Taqiyya” literally means: “Concealing, precaution, guarding.” It is employed in disguising one’s beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.

    Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur’an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”. A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his heart. (See endnotes)

    Like many Islamic practices, taqiyya was formed within the context of the culture of Arab tribalism, expansionary warfare, Bedouin raiding and inter-tribal conflict. Taqiyya has been used by Muslims since the 7th century to confuse, confound and divide ‘the enemy’.

    A favoured tactic was ‘deceptive triangulation’; used to persuade the enemy that preparations for a raid were not aimed at them but at another tribe altogether. The fate in store for the deceived enemy target was an unexpected plunderous raid, enslavement of the women and death to the post-pubescent males.

    The core foundation of hyper-masculine Arab culture is bound up in perceptions of “honour and shame”. At all times, he (it’s usually a male) must avoid having his face “blackened” by words or actions which are a slight upon, a challenge or affront to, his status in the family or broader social / tribal group. To be open, frank and forthright or to make self-damning admissions in his dealings (particularly with the infidel enemy) is to leave himself open and vulnerable to humiliating shame and to the subsequent disrespect from his peers. Tongues will wag in the bazaar’s coffee shops and rumours will rapidly spread that so-and-so has lost his “manliness” and status. In short, he is no longer worthy of deferential respect; to an Arab, this is worse than death itself.

    The higher one is placed in the social order (or rather, on how important the individual perceives himself to be), the more imperative it becomes to strenuously avoid “loss of face”. The male’s perceived loss of honour and status, must be redressed and his face “whitened”, i.e. his honour regained and restored, at any cost; even to the extent of (as in the honour killing of daughters) murdering the person “responsible” for causing the initial humiliation. When taqiyya is used to avoid making an admission or concession it is simply an essential means of ensuring that ones honour and standing remain intact and untarnished. Blood feuds and vendettas, caused by an ancient humiliation of a long dead ancestor, can persist, fuelled and propelled by shame and honour, for generations. Muhammad, who is promoted as every Muslim’s exemplar, set the precedent for vengeful retaliation when he ordered the murder of those who mocked or satirised him and, as he was an Arab, caused him potential loss of face. [See link, “Muhammad’s Dead Poets Society”]

    Outwitting:

    Islamic spokesmen commonly use taqiyya as a form of ‘outwitting’. The skilled taqiyya-tactician doesn’t want the matter at hand to be debated or discussed; so his opponent must be outwitted or preemptively outflanked by the use of taqiyya. The objective is to divert attention away from the subject through duplicity and obfuscation.

    The claim is often made that difficulties in translating from Arabic to English makes the meaning of what they say or write difficult or impossible to convey….this is simply another subterfuge. Keysar Trad has repeatedly claimed that Sheikh Hilali’s obnoxious, inflammatory and misogynistic comments have been “mistranslated”, misquoted or “taken out of context”. The aim of this ploy is to dilute or neutralise public opprobrium. The use of independent translators has, in the past, disproved his assertions. The Sheikh states what he believes to be correct according to Islamic precepts and his “interpreter” reconfigures the statement to make it palatable to the unwitting listener.

    Consider the following statement by Mr. Trad on the February 24 2006.

    Keysar Trad, president of the Islamic Friendship Association of Australia, told Reuters that Australian Muslims

    agreed with Costello’s (Australia’s Treasurer, Peter Costello) sentiments about being good, law abiding citizens.

    “But to continually single out the Muslim community like this is very unhelpful, it’s very divisive and it does stir up Islamophobia”,

    Trad said.

    “We’re proud to be Australian and our religion strongly stipulates that if you make an oath, whether it’s an oath of citizenship or any other oath, that you honour it, abide by it.”

    However, the Prophet Muhammad seems to have a different idea on the subject.

    Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 67, Number 427:

    “By Allah, and Allah willing, if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. Then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’ ”

    Role playing as the victim:

    When placed under scrutiny or criminal investigation, (even when there is overwhelming, irrefutable evidence of guilt or complicity), the taqiyya-tactician will quickly attempt to counter the allegation by resorting to the claim that it is, in fact, the accused who are the ‘the victims’. Victims of Islamophobia, racism, religious discrimination and intolerance. Currently, this is the most commonly encountered form of distraction and ‘outwitting’….. Defence by offence.

    Manipulative ambiguity and Semantics:

    Sheik Hilali and the late Yasser Arafat are both on public record as (a) ‘condemning’ the 9/11 attacks, in ambiguous terms, to the Western media and (b) praising suicide bombings, or “ martyrdom operations”, to their Arabic speaking audiences .

    Islamic spokesmen will rarely unequivocally condemn a specific act of terrorism and direct questions will be skillfully evaded.

    (NB: because Muslims regard Islamic attacks as “jihad”, and not terrorism, their spokesmen can truthfully deny any support for terrorism.)

    Interviewers would be better advised to ask the more precise question “do you believe in jihad against the unbelievers?

    However, a direct question requiring a simple “YES” or “NO” reply is rarely forthcoming and is usually deflected by responding with a tangentially irrelevant rejoinder or, in an attempt to neutralise the original question, counter-challenging with another question such as “are you in favour of killing children in Iraq?”…..Touché and Checkmate!

    Diversion, deflection and “tu quoque”:

    Questions relating to the 9/11 terrorist attacks will usually be diverted by either making outrageously wild conspiracy claims “the CIA did it to give the U.S. an excuse to attack Muslims,… Mossad was the perpetrator… No Jews came to work at the World Trade Centre on September 11” etc. or by making an irrelevant counter reference to “the plight of the Palestinians”,.. Iraqis,.. colonialism,.. the crusades, or US foreign policy’s support for Israel” as the ‘root causes’ of terrorism.

    Then, of course, there’s the ever popular, specious allegation that George Bush is a bigger terrorist than Osama bin Laden.

    Diversionary “tu quoque” response ploys usually start with the words “but” or “what about…?” in an attempt to turn, and transfer an equal culpability back on their interlocutor.

    Demanding ‘evidence’:

    Islamic spokesmen practice a form of taqiyya defined in psychology as ‘cognitive denial’ by repetitive and persistent demands of ‘where is the evidence!’ and ‘prove it!’ whenever there is Muslim complicity in terrorist acts, evidence, which they know very well, for security or legal sub-judice restraints, can not be disclosed. If indeed the “evidence” were to be publicly presented, they would then move on to the familiar “prejudicial to the defendant receiving a fair trial–grounds for a mistrial” default position.

    Tactical denial:

    Rather than admitting that a proposition concerning a subject under discussion can be partly true, an Islamic spokesman will flatly deny a claim or proposition in absolute terms. For example, “It is impossible to be a Muslim and a terrorist”; this semantic argument is purely a matter of definition, because radical Islamists don’t define their violent attacks as terrorism, but jihad. (i.e. holy war in the way of Allah) .Another popular assertion is that ‘Islam forbids suicide’, which is true, but by virtue once again of definition, irrelevant, because suicide bombings are regarded as “martyrdom operations” and are therefore not forbidden, but on the contrary, admirable and praiseworthy. Muslim spokesmen are also fond of using extreme hyperbole. Their refutations regularly include the word “percent”. e.g. “I am 150% certain that Jews orchestrated September 11”…. “I guarantee the accused is 200% innocent”.

    Exploiting cognitive dissonance:

    Islamic spokesmen regularly perplex and baffle interviewers and their audiences as they resort to double talk, ‘clichés and platitudes’ concerning Islam. A state of cognitive dissonance (i.e. holding two contradictory beliefs and attempting to resolve them) is therefore induced in viewers and readers as they attempt to mentally process the claim that Islam is a peaceful religion despite the indisputable evidence before them of Islamist involvement in terrorist acts or criminal conduct.

    The Islamic ‘defence’ script:

    Islamic spokesmen repeat the same predictable duplicitous clichés concerning Islam in Europe, as do their counterparts in Australia and America. They appear to follow a well prepared script as they repeat “Islam is tolerant and peace loving”. In instances where they find themselves presented with, and cornered by, undeniable evidence that murderous radicals are indeed guilty as charged the spokesman will then fall back on the old chestnut that the culprits are only a “small minority” and not “true Muslims” anyway. Islamic spokeswomen use taqiyya when making the somewhat Orwellian claim that wearing the hijab, niqab, burqa etc. is “liberating” and “empowering”, and that, for reasons known only to them, these symbols of submissive exclusion offer them more freedom than Western women, thereby implying that women in Muslim countries are somehow ‘freer’ than women in the West. This ruse is designed to preclude further examination into the well documented inferior status of females in Islamic societies. Being put on the spot, and having to admit their true obedient and subservient status, would be embarrassing and therefore shame inducing so resorting to denial and exaggerative taqiyya is their only option.

    There’s a common and oft repeated lie that “Islam” means peace”, it doesn’t, it translates as “submission” (to Allah).

    Islamic falsehoods are echoed uncritically by Western politicians and other apologist dupes, for example “A small group of fundamentalists have hijacked a great and noble religion”. This timely, skilful, misleading and diversionary theme of the ‘hijacking’ of Islam was introduced into public, political and media discourse by an Islamic ‘spokesman’ in the United States shortly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks and has become an “accepted fact” repeated, ad nauseum, ever since.

    The “Islam has been hijacked” myth is now a clichéd media and political reference which serves to deflect attention from the empirical proof of a fourteen hundred year continuity of the doctrinal, political and religious nature of Islamic jihad.

    A related theme that “a small minority of Muslims are engaged in terrorism” is utterly irrelevant as terrorism is always perpetrated by ‘small minorities’ or more accurately small groups or cells. Surveys consistently reveal that between 10-15% of all Muslims sympathise with the aims and methodology of this radical strain of Islam which has been “hijacked”. This means, that within an estimated world population of 1.2 billion Muslims, there are 120-180 million people prepared to fund, facilitate and in general, give moral and financial assistance to the jihadists….. “a small minority”?….you decide!

    The indisputable truth is that there has been no “hijacking” of Islam. Islamic extremists can, and do, find ample inspiration, justification and encouragement for their violent ideology in the Quran and Hadith.

    Taqiyya as impressions and perception management

    Pathos and the tactical use of children:

    Australian television viewers may recall that interviews with terrorist suspects raided by ASIO (Australian Security Intelligence Organisation) and AFP (Australian Federal Police) frequently featured women in hijabs holding small children or a crying baby as they plaintively protested their husband’s innocence and attested to his innate piety, decency and kind-hearted nature.

    Trembling fingers and quavering voices pointed out damage, disruption and disarray to the family home. In some interviews the suspect / father holds the child, whilst denying any involvement in, or knowledge of, radicalism .

    Sheikh Hilali’s daughter, in a newspaper interview, played the taqiyya pathos card by claiming that, because the cold northern winter was imminent, her father was travelling to Lebanon to “hand deliver” thousands of blankets to “orphanages” and homeless victims of the war between Israel and Hizbollah.

    In the same Israel /Hezbollah war, a photojournalist filmed a Lebanese man, strewing, for the purpose of emotional impact, the contents of a large cardboard box full of children’s stuffed toys amongst the wreckage and debris. This was obviously for the benefit of a large contingent of international TV film crews who were about to be taken on a guided tour of the bombed buildings later that morning.

    Photos of carefully placed baby’s bibs and dummies (pacifiers) also appeared to be extraordinarily abundant on the internet, as were “staged” photos of a “body” being removed from the piles of collapsed concrete. One sequence of photos clearly shows the “body” in question, alive and well, walking around with his “rescuers” before and after the “retrieval” of his dusty, “lifeless body”. This is taqiyya by imagery!

    The above are examples of taqiyya in the age of impressions and perception management and are designed to, dupe, play on the emotions of, and elicit sympathy from, the compassionate, unwitting public.

    Taqiyya and the Deceptive definition of Jihad:

    The contemporary political meaning of jihad is clear: it is “Jihad of the sword” and not the peaceful internal struggle for spiritual improvement as their spin-doctors would have us believe. Islamic fundamentalists consider jihad to be the sixth pillar of Islam, a binding duty and integral to the faith. Claiming that Jihad is a subjective and psychological state to become a better person is taqiyya. In contemporary terms, Jihad means – HOLY WAR – against the unbelievers and it is in this context that Al Qaeda training manuals and other radical preachers use and refer to jihad.

    The study of taqiyya is crucial to an understanding of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. Its use ranges from the issuing of false terrorist threats, operational and strategic disinformation issued by Al Qaeda in the form of ‘intelligence chatter’ for the purpose of throwing national defence groups into confusion. Terrorist in captivity resort to taqiyya during interrogation. It is most frequently used by Muslim ‘spokesmen’ whilst intentionally making misleading public statements concerning Islam and terrorism.

    The Arabs have a story which exemplifies subtle, semantic dissimulation (taqiyya) perfectly. Legend has it that Mohammed’s nephew, son-in-law and future Caliph, Ali, was sitting on a stool outside his dwelling when one of his allies ran red-faced and gasping into the village and hid in Ali’s home. Perceiving that the man was being pursued, Ali promptly got up and sat on another nearby stool. A few minutes later, a group of angry pursuers ran into the encampment and asked Ali if he had seen the man they were pursuing. Ali responded with the statement “AS LONG AS I HAVE BEEN SITTING ON THIS STOOL I HAVE SEEN NO ONE”

    This story demonstrates why nothing an Islamist says can be taken at face value. Every statement and utterance needs to be thoroughly analysed, or “unpacked”.

    After yet another violent incident in Sydney, involving “Males of Middle-Easter Appearance”, a spokesman for the Muslim community appeared on a Sydney television evening newscast. In the brief soundbight he defensively declared “our religion teaches us that we must be kind to one another” ….and indeed it does, it simply depends on how we are to interpret the words “one another”, as these verses from the Quran demonstrate:

    Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. – (Q 48:25)

    Muhammad is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.

    Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers*. – (Q48:29)

    So, was this spokesman lying?

    Or was he telling the truth?

    The answer is both, YES,… and NO! –Or, perhaps neither, and if you are confused by this apparent contradiction?,. You’re meant to be, because he was practising taqiyya; ……where the devil is ALWAYS in the detail.

  76. What I meant by ‘uneducated fear’, Roundhouse, with respect, wasn’t regarding intelligence or knowledge, but a obvious lack of connection with the Muslim community, many of whom do not share the views of the militants, although, in some ways, this could be debated.

    You admitted to the fear by saying you would not allow your children to engage. That’s your choice, and I am not criticising you for it, but your comment confirms what i say about your information download causing your reticence.

    The only real way to find out about people is to engage with them, and Christians do not have a real choice about this. We are both admonished ad commanded to relate to the unsaved world, regardless of their religious affiliations or the strength of their convictions, even if they are militant.

    I’m not for one second saying we should send our children in their. Our command is to protect them and guard them first of all.

    But we don’t discover people by what we see on a blog or in the news. We meet people ace to face.

    Where Bones is such an intolerant cad is in his treatment of people who ave the kind f reticence you are demonstrating. I don;t blame you. He does.

    He calls you a Nazi for being upset by the devilishness of the aggressive wings.

    He blames you for their destructive nature. He blames you for their criminality. He blames you for the way the moderates, unless deeply and profoundly pressed, are reluctant to do anything about preventing the violent arm of their faith from causing the destruction they then come out and attempt to soften.

    It is the double whammy of militance and caress, militance and caress, which has lulled the left side of the debate into a false sense of security, and caused them to accuse those whoa re affronted by it of being the culprits, not the angry victims.

  77. So you didn’t read it, you just posted from other anti-Islamic websites.

    Here’s another one then

    Taqiyya and Lying in Islam

    Muhammad Sameel ‘Abd al-Haqq

    Taqiyya is a concept all Islamophobes, including the author of the article “How Taqiyya Alters Islam’s Rules of War:Defeating Jihadist Terrorism, Raymond Ibrahim, hardly understand. The reality is that Islamophobes throw around the word “taqiyya” with little care for its actual meaning. It is simply sloppy rhetoric, with no real substantive value. So I will suppose if cries of “Islamophobia” by Muslims are intellectual cop outs, designed to silence all criticism of Islam, then cries of “taqiyya” are the ultimate intellectual cop outs of Islamophobes designed to silence rebuttals of Islamophobes. To be sure, just as there are legitimate instances of Islamophobia, there are also legitimate instances of lazy Muslims crying “Islamophobia!”. And just as there are legitimate instances of Muslim extremists employing their twisted understanding of taqiyya and kitman, there are many instances of Islamophobes crying “taqiyya” in order to silence Mainstream Muslims, and shove down our throats that the extremists’ ideology and narrative is the “real Islam”, firmly rooted in the Islamic tradition, texts, and teachings of Islam.

    First off ,telling the truth is commanded in Islam, and honesty is highly praised. It’s as if after learning some legitimate Arabic terms used in Islam such as jihad, shari’ah, taqiyya and kitman, Islamophobes take their twisted or incomplete understanding of the terms and create a new buzz word. How about telling us the meanings of harb, qital, qatal, irhab, hirabah, fiqh, and/or idtirar instead?

    Islamophobes simply take the words of the extremists as truth. But wait..Aren’t all Muslims liars, engaged in taqiyya and active deception? Isn’t lying part of our religion? How do you know the extremists aren’t lying about Islam? When is a Muslim telling the truth? In short, who is practicing taqiyya, the Mainstream Muslim majority or the Muslim extremists and terrorists? After all, our narratives are diametrically opposed to each other, so it can’t be both groups.

    From the Qur’an:

    “And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is). [Qur’an, 2:42]”

    “If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, Let the trustee (Faithfully) discharge His trust, and let him fear his Lord. Conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it,- His heart is tainted with sin. And God Knoweth all that ye do. [Qur’an, 2:283]”

    “O ye who believe! Stand out firmly For justice, as witnesses To Allah, even as against Yourselves, or your parents, Or your kin, and whether It be (against) rich or poor: For Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (Of your hearts), lest ye Swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline To do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted With all that ye do. [Qur’an, 4:135]”

    “But if anyone earns A fault or a sin And throws it on to one that is innocent, he carries (on himself) (Both) a falsehood and a flagrant sin. [Qur’an, 4:112]”

    “…Help ye one another In righteousness and piety, But help ye not one another In sin and rancor: Fear Allah: for Allah Is strict in punishment. [Qur’an, 5:2]”

    “O ye who believe! Stand out firmly For Allah, as witnesses To fair dealing, and let not The hatred of others To you make you swerve To wrong and depart from Justice. Be just: that is Next to Piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted With all that ye do. [Qur’an, 5:8]”

    “O you who believe, you shall reverence Allah, and be among the truthful.” [Qur’an 9:119]

    “Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids All shameful deeds, and injustice And rebellion: He instructs you, That ye may receive admonition. (Qur’an, 16:90)”

    “It is only those who believe not in the Ayah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, who fabricate falsehood, and it is they who are liars.” [Qur’an 16:105]

    “The submitting men, the submitting women, the believing men, the believing women, the obedient men, the obedient women, the truthful men, the truthful women, the steadfast men, the steadfast women, the reverent men, the reverent women, the charitable men, the charitable women, the fasting men, the fasting women, the chaste men, the chaste women, and the men who commemorate GOD frequently, and the commemorating women; Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a great recompense.” [Qur’an 33:35]

    “Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies.” [Qur’an 40:28]

    “Woe to each sinful dealer in falsehoods: [Qur’an, 45:7]”

    “Oh Prophet! Accept the pledges of the believing women, when they come to take their oaths of allegiance to you. Provided they pledge that they would not join any partners with Allah, would not steal, commit adultery or kill their children, and would not indulge in slander, and would not concoct lies on their own. Also, that they would not disobey you in what is right. Seek forgiveness for them from Allah! Certainly Allah is the most Forgiving and the most Merciful. [Qur’an, 60:1]

    Note: If there is a claim of abrogation, hope you have fun finding the abrogating verse(s) that says, to the effect, “lying is permissible”.

    From the Ahadith:

    “Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell.”

    Abdullah bin Mas`ud (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Prophet (PBUH) said, “Truth leads to piety and piety leads to Jannah. A man persists in speaking the truth till he is enrolled with Allah as a truthful. Falsehood leads to vice and vice leads to the Fire (Hell), and a person persists on telling lies until he is enrolled as a liar”.’

    or an alternative rendering,

    “It is obligatory for you to tell the truth, for truth leads to virtue and virtue leads to Paradise, and the man who continues to speak the truth and endeavors to tell the truth is eventually recorded as truthful with Allah, and beware of telling of a lie for telling of a lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell-Fire, and the person who keeps telling lies and endeavors to tell a lie is recorded as a liar with Allah.”

    It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks, he lies; when he makes a promise, he breaks it; and when he is entrusted with something, he betrays that trust.” (Narrated by al-Bukhari, 33; Muslim, 59)

    Hasan bin `Ali (May Allah be pleased with them) said: I remember (these words) from Messenger of Allah (PBUH): “Give up what is doubtful to you for that which is not doubtful; for truth is peace of mind and falsehood is doubt”. [At-Tirmidhi].

    Hakim bin Hizam (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that: Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: “Both parties in a business transaction have a right to annul it so long as they have not separated; and if they tell the truth and make everything clear to each other (i.e., the seller and the buyer speak the truth, the seller with regard to what is purchased, and the buyer with regard to the money) they will be blessed in their transaction, but if they conceal anything and lie, the blessing on their transaction will be eliminated.’‘

    [Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim].

    The concept of taqiyya, as usually understood, comes from this verse, along with a few others:

    “Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith – but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.” [Qur’an: Surah 16: 106]

    Taqiyya involves the Islamic concept of religious dissimulation, not in fear of persecution, but when actually faced with extreme persecution, imminent death, torture and compulsion. Taqiyya is also defined as the practice of precautionary dissimulation practiced by followers of Shi’a Islam, whereby believers may conceal their Shi’a faith when under threat, persecution or compulsion.

    The term taqiyya (تقیه) is derived from the Arabic triliteral root waw-qaf-ya, denoting “piety, devotion, uprightness, and godliness, and it means the brightest star”, It did not originate among Shi’a, though, but was expanded upon by them. It revolves around the aforementioned Quranic verse. Contrary to what Raymond Ibrahim claims, not only are taqiyya and kitman not a fundamental part of Islam, it is clear that it isn’t necessarily taqiyya that is used as a form of deceit in times of war. The words for lie in Arabic are:

    LIE إِفْك IFK

    TO LIE كَذَبَ KAZABA

    In no way does taqiyya involve active deceit. Stating that deceit is doctrinally grounded in Islam is disingenuous. And it is never depicted as superior to such as courage, fortitude, or self-sacrifice in war. In fact, anyone who knows anything about Islam knows that these things, especially shahadat(martyrdom/self-sacrifice) are praised, whereas deceit is only regarded as sometimes a necessity, not something eminently praiseworthy.

    The first mistake in assuming that taqiyya is some essential part of Islam is the assumption that Shari’ah is the body of legal rulings that defines how a Muslim should behave in all circumstances( this is fiqh). Jurists have decreed that Muslims are permitted to lie in order to preserve themselves based on Qur’anic verses forbidding Muslims from being instrumental in their own deaths indeed, yet if anyone bothered to read the tafsir surrounding the revelation of the verse in question(Surah 16: 106), one would be familiar with the stories of Bilal, Soumayya, and her husband Yasir(radi Allahu anhum).

    If we read “Azbab ul-Nuzul” (The Reasons for Revelation), we find the context of this verse:

    Said Ibn ‘Abbas said: “This verse was revealed about Ammar ibn Yasir. The idolaters had taken him away along with his father Yasir, his mother Sumayyah, [etc.]…and tortured them. As for Sumayyah, she was tied up between two camels and stabbed with a spear in her female organ…[and] killed. Her husband Yasir was also killed…As for ‘Ammar, he was coerced to let them hear what they wanted to hear [i.e. renunciation of Islam]. God’s Messenger was told that Ammar has renounced faith, but he said: ‘Never, Ammar is filled with faith from his head to his toes; faith is admixed with his flesh and blood!’ Ammar then went to see God’s Messenger, crying. God’s Messenger used his hands to wipe Ammar’s tears, and said: ‘If they return to you, let them hear again what you told them’. Then Almighty God revealed this verse [16:1o6].”

    Also, Mujahid said: “This verse was revealed about some Meccans who accepted faith [i.e. Islam]… The Quraysh caught up with them…and coerced them to renounce their faith. It is about them that this verse was revealed.”

    Although taqiyya is a doctrine further developed in Shi’ism, exactly for the reason of persecution at the hands of the majority Sunnis, as we can see, it is also true that there is some justification for such a belief in Sunni canonical sources. Thus, renouncing Islam under duress, torture, and fear of imminent death, is the only application of taqiyya that exists in Sunni Islam, which 85% of Muslims follow. Virtually all Shi’ites believe in a similar restriction of taqiyya. It is not permissible to lie about Islam.

    As far as one of the few books devoted to the subject(which should give you a clue about its actual importance and application in Islam), “At-Taqiyya fi’l-Islam” (Dissimulation in Islam), the author Sami Mukarem, is a Druze. The Druze are famous for dissembling their religious beliefs, and as a mystical offshoot of Ismai’ilism, they are not even regarded as within the fold of Islam by most Muslims. All of the author’s assertions about the fundamental importance and applicability of taqiyya among every “sect” in Islam is to be rejected. Most Muslims have never even heard of this doctrine until an Islamophobe brandishes it in a declaration of (faux) victory.

    The claim that Sunnis living in the West today find themselves in the place of the Shi’a is sheer nonsense. Though many Islamophobes would like to persecute us, thankfully(Alhamdulillah), we have not yet reached the stage of the severe persecution the Shi’a faced from some Sunnis.

    Qur’anic verse 3:28 is often seen by Islamophobes as another primary verse that sanctions deception towards non-Muslims. But it is their translations that allows them this deceptive idea. Translations such as this:

    “Let believers [Muslims] not take infidels [non-Muslims] for friends and allies instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with God—unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions.”

    Here is better translation, with the Arabic transliteration:

    [Qur’an 3:28]Let not the believers take the kafireen for awliya rather than believers. And whoever does this has no connection with Allah — except that you guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully. And Allah cautions you against His retribution. And to Allah is the eventual coming.

    La yattakhithi almu/minoona alkafireena awliyaa min dooni almu/mineena waman yafAAal thalika falaysa mina Allahi fee shay-in illa an tattaqoo minhum tuqatan wayuhaththirukumu Allahu nafsahu wa-ila Allahi almaseeru

    Although many translators translate “awliya” as friends, anyone more familiar with Arabic knows that this word is not properly translated as friend only, but as “protector”, “saint”, and “friend”. ‘Sadiq” word be a more appropriate word here. The verse conveys two of these connotations at once, and the inclusion of the words, “rather than the believers”, makes it clear that this verse is not about deceiving “infidels”. More importantly kafir does not signify all non Muslims/nonbelievers, but only those who cover up (the (truth). A closer analysis of verse 3:28 gives another, totally different, picture. While many extremists Muslims do believe it is forbidden to become friends with non-Muslims, mainstream Muslims believe the term awliya does not properly translate to “friends.” Rather, the Arabic term awliya refers to a specific type of friendship, an unequal “friendship”. And in the context of the verse in question, it refers to two things:

    1. A relationship where a Muslim is receiving protection from the non-Muslim; in particular, the Muslim is at the mercy of the non-Muslim. A better translation of the word awliya would be “protecting friends”, or simply “patrons.”

    2. It is also clear that war is also the context, not normal relations.

    The prohibition of taking disbelievers as awliya is repeated in verse 60:1, where Allah says:

    “O you who believe, do not take My enemies–who are your enemies as well–as your awliya–offering them your love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have on the contrary driven out the Prophet and yourselves from your homes, simply because you believe in your Lord Allah!” [Qur’an, 60:1].

    This verse makes the context and the meaning of awliya, especially in its Quranic usage, much clearer. A few lines down it is even clarified that Allah is only talking about those disbelievers who oppress the Muslims by fighting them for their faith and driving the Muslims out of their homes:

    “As for those disbelievers who do not fight against you on account of your faith, and who do not expel you from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and equity, for verily God loves the equitable! God only forbids you from taking as awliya (protecting friends) those who fight you for your faith, and who drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out. Those who seek their protection are indeed wrongdoers.” [Quran, 60:8-9]

    Even if we accept that the only possible definition of awliya is “friends”, the Quranic verse would only prohibit taking those disbelievers as friends who oppress the Muslims; not all non-Muslims.

    And, as Danios from Loonwatch writes:

    “Furthermore, 3:28 was revealed in a certain context: the Prophet Muhammad had begun preaching his new religion in Mecca, his birthplace. The pagans of Mecca oppressed and tortured his followers. As has been discussed earlier, the Prophet Muhammad gave permission to some of the weaker and more vulnerable converts to pretend to renounce their faith in order to avoid being tortured and killed. (This developed into the Shi’ite doctrine of taqiyya.) Eventually, the persecution reached such a level that the Prophet ordered his followers to flee to the city of Yathrib (Medina), an event that came to be known as the Hijra (Emigration). However, some of the early Muslims were too weak to travel and/or were prevented from leaving by the pagans of Mecca. It was these that were permitted to use “taqiyya” to save their lives.

    The pagans of Mecca threatened to destroy the city-state of Medina, and with it the religion of Islam. They established a network of spies in Medina, by reaching out to some of the non-Muslims of Medina as well as some of the Muslims weak in faith. The looming threat of a pagan conquest of Medina caused many of the weaker willed Muslims to lose their faith in the Prophet; many of them sought the protection of the Meccan pagans. It was these Muslims that the Quran was calling out in verse 3:28 and 60:1, urging the Muslims not to “take the disbelievers (i.e. the pagans plotting to overthrow Medina) for awliya (protecting friends) rather than believers (the Prophet and the defenders of Medina).”The words “except by way of precaution when you fear them” was referring to those Muslims left behind in Mecca, reassuring them that they were not to be faulted for trying to save their lives (from torture and death) by using “taqiyya.” However, a key point here is that the Muslims of Mecca were commanded to flee to Medina, and whoever did not do so was considered sinful, except those physically incapable of doing so. The Quran says:

    When the angels collect the souls of those who die in sin against themselves (because they did not emigrate from Mecca), the angels will ask: “What was wrong with you?” The people will answer: “We were too weak on earth.” The angels will say: “Was God’s earth not spacious enough for you to migrate to some other place?” For such the goal is Hell, what an evil refuge! Except those who are truly weak and prevented by the oppressors, those men, women, and children who have no means in their power to emigrate. For these, there is hope that God will forgive them: for God blots out sins and forgives again and again. He who forsakes his home in the Cause of God finds the earth wide and spacious, with many places of refuge. Should he die as a refugee from his home, his reward from God is sure. God is Most Forgiving and Most Merciful. (Quran, 4:97-100)

    Clearly, it is not appropriate to analogize the circumstance in verse 3:28 to the situation of Muslim-Americans today. Unlike the Muslims of pagan Mecca who were tortured and killed if they professed their faith in Islam, Muslim-Americans have freedom of religion. The state will not kill Muslim-Americans for being Muslim. Yes, if Muslim-Americans are ever rounded up and sent to concentration camps, as some of the Islamophobes so desire, then in that situation a Muslim-American could use taqiyya to deny that he is a Muslim. But what relevance is taqiyya when their lives are not at stake? Even the verse that Spencer himself quotes, verse 3:28, says “except by way of precaution when you fear them.” Do Muslim-Americans fear for their lives? Spencer doesn’t even believe that Islamophobia is real, let alone the idea that Muslim-Americans fear for their lives due to their profession of faith, so how does this verse apply at all?

    It would only apply to a situation such as the Inquisition in Spain. And even in this case, the first option would not be taqiyya. Rather, the Muslims would be commanded to emigrate to another place, such as to the Muslim majority world, wherein they could freely practice their religion. Any Muslim who willingly stayed behind in Spain and pretended to become Christian might be considered sinful (and therefore deserving of Hell!). God would only forgive those Muslims who were physically incapable of leaving Spain, due to handicap or prevention by the Spanish authorities. Therefore, we see that taqiyya is a last case option, and only when there is no other choice. Even if a Muslim-American felt like there was a possibility he could be tortured or threatened with death for his faith, in the United States, he would still have the option of migrating to another country. Taqiyya would simply not be an option, and anyone who resorted to that would be considered sinful and Hell-bound.”

    Citing Muhammad ibn Jarir at-Tabari (d. 923) is merely irresponsibly citing medieval opinion while ignoring context and modern Islamic scholarly opinion. Declaring him “author of a standard and authoritative Qur’an commentary” is more rhetoric designed to fool the reader. At-Tabari does not create Islamic doctrine. Same goes for ibn Kathir, Abu ‘Abdullah al-Qurtubi (1214-73)and Muhyi ‘d-Din ibn al-Arabi (1165-1240).No ‘alim, fuqaha, or mufti or any Muslim has that prerogative. Any Muslim who declares “Taqiyya, even if committed without duress, does not lead to a state of infidelity—even if it leads to sin deserving of hellfire” is obviously wrong, but only in the sense of it implying that lying is a laudable trait. Rather, what the ‘ulema mean by this statement is that althought lying is a sin, lying when not under duress does not make one a kafir murtad(aposatasizing disbeliever), as taqiyya is only permitted under duress! Claiming, as Ibrahim does, that Muslims can behave like “infidels” and worse—for example, by bowing down and worshiping idols and crosses, offering false testimony, and even exposing the weaknesses of their fellow Muslims to the infidel enemy—anything short of actually killing a Muslim”, ignores, again, that taqiyya can only be employed under duress.

    While acknowledging that deception of the enemy during war is only common sense, Ibrahim goes on to elaborate another lie that involves the idea “that war against the infidel is a perpetual affair. In fact, the statement “ all four schools of Sunni jurisprudence agree that “jihad is when Muslims wage war on infidels, after having called on them to embrace Islam or at least pay tribute [jizya] and live in submission, and the infidels refuse”, is a gross misrepresentation, as all schools of Sunni jurisprudence consist of individuals, the majority of whom don’t hold this view. An appeal to this merely ignores the contemporary situation where a cut and dry adherence to a madhabb is not the prevailing circumstance while also disregarding the circumstances that lead to such a view of jihad by some medieval jurists. Dar al-Islam and dar al-Harb is a medieval concept, and many scholars argue that anywhere one is able to practice Islam freely, free from persecution is Dar al-Islam . At the very least Ibrahim ignores that this dichotomous division was:

    1. Not something found in the Qur’an, but elucidated by jurists, and

    2. It is not the only way the medieval Islamic scholars have “divided the world”.

    Moreover there is no obligation to convert everybody to Islam by force.

    Robert Spencer agrees with Ibrahim and wants to convince the public that Islamic law allows for, and even encourages lying “if it fosters the growth of Islam” and that “moderate Muslims” are “stealth jihadists”, who are simply using deception to further the faith. Any moral code worthy enough because it avoids fallacies and logical contradictions would allow for lying in certain circumstances. It’s common sense that no moral code should command honesty without exception. It brings to mind the famous Nazi’s at your door story. Or my own “Bin Laden at your door asking for Robert Spencer” comparison. Would you tell the truth and turn in Spencer, who is visiting you at your home? There is no need to touch on the fact that this type of allowance for lying in extreme situations is present in Christianity, Judaism, and even in atheistic or humanistic moral philosophy.

    According to ahadith, in Islam, the Prophet Muhammad(saws) allowed for three (and only three) exceptions to the rule of honesty :

    Lying is NOT permitted except in three cases: (1) a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; (2) lying at times of war; (3) and lying in order to reconcile between people.

    Lying in order to reconcile people(s), is based on Islam’s emphasis on peace and a saying of the Prophet(as):

    “He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar.”

    But obviously what we are most concerned with here, primarily, is the idea of war, and how extremists believe Muslims are at war with non-Muslims by virtue of them being non Muslims; and Islamophobes believe the extremists. Lying to “unbelievers” or “infidels” becomes perpetually permissible by this standard. Prophet Muhammad’s(saws) statement that “war is deceit/deception” has led to a basis for promulgation of this taqiyya-linked idea of the permissibility of lying to all non-believers as standard practice. Yet as the following story shows deception is only permitted in war; war defined as “open hostilities, that both sides acknowledge that they are at war with each other”, as per Islamic law, and/or armed conflict:

    During the Battle of the Trench, the Confederates, led by the Meccans, were threatening to use their overwhelming numbers to destroy Islamic city-state, Medina. They lay siege to the city. Nuaym ibn Masud was instructed by the Prophet Muhammad(saws)to break the deadly siege. Nuaym said he could do this, but that “this requires me to lie.” The Prophet(as) replied “war is deception.” And so Nuaym went to the various factions making up the Confederates and convinced them of the supposed disloyalty of their own allies. This sowed discord and disunity in the enemy ranks, which the Muslims capitalized on to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

  78. Oh Gosh, Roundhouse, on the lying and cheating, there is absolutely no doubt that this is part of the culture. We have, since we have been here, had many dealings with the locals, most whom, ironically, bear the name of the prophet in their own, first name or second, which have led us to the inevitable conclusion that lying and cheating is, indeed, a part of their way of life.

    I have even confronted more than one as to why they do dishonour the name of their ‘god’ by being so untrustworthy. They do not reply! Why should they? I’m an ‘infidel’!

    Lying and cheating to an ‘infidel’ is, indeed, considered obligatory! LOL! :-O

    Nice people! Lots of the time. Generous – with words, often. Trustworthy? Not as far as I could throw them! Hilarious!

  79. Yes Steve, bad Bones, blah, blah, blah.

    You really are a complete moron.

    I blame Roundhouse for his own ignorance.

    That’s his responsibility.

    Yes Roundhouse, keep believing that Muslims are terrorists, liars or whatever other bigoted belief you have that makes you happy

    Happy now, Steve.

    Dickhead.

  80. @Bones

    No, I didn’t bother reading the first link. Why would I go to a website titled “Loon Watch”? Your second post was written by a Muslim. Enough said I think.

  81. Nice people! Lots of the time. Generous – with words, often. Trustworthy? Not as far as I could throw them! Hilarious!

    Now you know how I feel around fundamentalist Christians.

    Believe all sorts of lies and rots but they have the best intentions.

  82. No, I didn’t bother reading the first link. Why would I go to a website titled “Loon Watch”? Your second post was written by a Muslim. Enough said I think.

    Yes Roundhouse. If a Muslim wants to learn about Christianity they should read a Muslim site of course.

    You know it makes sense to someone.

    Your bigotry is complete and supported by Steve himself.

  83. @Bones

    “If a Muslim wants to learn about Christianity they should read a Muslim site of course.”

    No, because if they did that they’d be murdered. Terrific people those Muslims!

  84. Fine. I’m out of here. I’m happy my nephew returned safe from Afghanistan.

    You two keep going in whatever deluded world you live in.

    Might go find out what Jews believe. I think I’ll read some Nazi sites.

    Morons.

  85. You know what, Bones, in all of that discussion, you could not once acknowledge that the Sydney riots were wrong, and you only said militant Islam was bad with an equivalence attachment following.

    All you did say was that a Christian brother was wrong for being reticent to send his kids to play with Muslim kids on the basis of their obvious and apparent behaviour, and another brother was wrong for trying to patiently work through this with him.

    You called him the equivalent to a Nazi sympathiser for goodness sake!

    And you have the gall to lose your temper online and call me foul names!

    Ridiculous! LOL! 😀

  86. It’s funny (or perhaps the right word is tragic) that many of the tactics that Muslims use to evade and obfuscate are the exact same tactics that Bones is using here. EG from the article I posted:

    Diversion, deflection and “tu quoque”:

    Questions relating to the 9/11 terrorist attacks will usually be diverted by either making outrageously wild conspiracy claims “the CIA did it to give the U.S. an excuse to attack Muslims,… Mossad was the perpetrator… No Jews came to work at the World Trade Centre on September 11” etc. or by making an irrelevant counter reference to “the plight of the Palestinians”,.. Iraqis,.. colonialism,.. the crusades, or US foreign policy’s support for Israel” as the ‘root causes’ of terrorism.

    Then, of course, there’s the ever popular, specious allegation that George Bush is a bigger terrorist than Osama bin Laden.

    Diversionary “tu quoque” response ploys usually start with the words “but” or “what about…?” in an attempt to turn, and transfer an equal culpability back on their interlocutor.

    And from Bones:

    Now you know how I feel around fundamentalist Christians.

    I’m more offended by my own nutbags than others.

    Just on Jim Wallace, is it Ok for a Christian leader and political activist to use psychological studies which are obviously fraudulant from a discredited source?

  87. You know what else, Bones. Sorry is a hard word sometimes, but it clears the air far quicker than ‘dickhead’, ‘deluded’, or ‘moron’.

    You were wrong, brother, in your treatment of Roundhouse, even if you disagree with his views.

    If you think hiding your head in the sand about militant Islam helps anyone or anything, or makes it go away, you are in for a rude shock some day.

  88. ” It only took me 5 minutes to find the truth about ‘lying’ Muslims.”

    Five minutes on a Muslim website and Bones is convinced. They’ll spend decades on finding everything bad they can about Christianity, but five minutes listening to Islam PR will convince them of its virtues. Only took Greg five minutes and he learned how glorious, glittering and advanced and wonderful Islam was until the Mongols and Christians wrecked it all.

    Five minutes…..
    Imagine if you let Bones loose at whatreallyhappened.com

    Anyway, what have we learned. That there are some nice Muslims, and that there are some good things taught in Islam. And that a long time ago, their civilization was quite advanced (due in big part due to translation of works from Greek, and the influence of Jewish and Christian scholars).

    And I still would ask Muslim leaders world wide to tell their people to stop killing. And, no I don’t think Islam is from God, and I can learn enough from the Bible without trying to learn from Muslims.

    If I wanted to study more from outside of Christianity, I’d probably do more reading of Jewish OT commentary. But, that’s just me.

    Stay safe everyone. And let’s pray for the persecuted Christians, and that many Muslims would come to know Jesus.

    zzzzz

  89. You still support roundhouse in his bigotry. Well Im not surprised as usual you rely on propaganda rather than truth. Ive got nothing to be sorry for. And i do know more than ever that i want notjing to do with your retarded divisive twisted view of christianity. You would have been right at home in germany in the 30s and 40s and im sure you would have been nice as you helped round up jews based on antisemitic propaganda. Welcome to steve, roundhouses and qs christianity. The home of bigots and defenders of lies. I should have said i hated jews cos jesus called them children of the devil. Then steve would be proud of me too.

  90. That is an ugly, crude summary of the conversation, Bones.

    Your fixation with Nazi Germany is frightening.

    You warped the conversation with your toilet paper trail of personal accusations, then try to cover your tracks with a huge sign saying “I bin wronged!”

    You’re not worth the time or effort if you’re going to react like that!

  91. Good Morning. Another 14 died in Pakistan.
    I’m not Steve, but since you call me a bigot and a defender of lies….I’ll just say I wouldn’t have been proud if you said you hate Jews. I don’t think you should hate Jews or Muslims Bones.

    Maybe your hatred of evangelical Christians is something you can get help for.

    “retarded divisive twisted view of christianity. You would have been right at home in germany in the 30s and 40s and im sure you would have been nice as you helped round up jews based on antisemitic propaganda. ”

    Just read that.. man, just when you thought things couldn’t get worse. Lucky this is all anonymous here.

  92. @Bones

    I have some lovely Jewish neighbours. Thankfully they don’t want to chop my head off because I am a non-Jew.

  93. I actually had a different opinion to Roundhouse, but that, I suppose, has been ignored.

    What I actually said was that he had been poorly treated. I don’t have to agree with someone or even support their opinion to know when they have been spoken to harshly.

    So to defend him is not to defend his cause necessarily.

    But, no, I don’t think he is bigoted. However, to say that I support his bigotry is in itself wrong, bigoted and callous. And completely out of order.

    Now I think Bones has gone off half cocked at three people, all of whom have a different opinion of what is happening, which is quite extraordinary, and totally irrational behaviour.

    But the worse part is the continued accusation of being akin to pre-nazi sympathisers.

    That last comment Bones was just about the lowest moment on this blog I have seen, and there have been a few.

  94. So don’t blame people for their fears, or reticence. It is intended.

    Blame the source.

    That sort of thinking is the sort that criminals use when trying to defend assault or murder…”he looked like, he made me feel, he reminded me of, I thought he was…,” none of which stands up to scrutiny.

    We are each responsible for the way we respond to any given stimuli. Nobody makes me feel anything…I choose to feel, to think and to respond, and do do you and Roundhouse.

    Cause/reaction is only a useful measure for inanimate objects….not mature, reasonable, thinking adults.

  95. Now I think Bones has gone off half cocked at three people, all of whom have a different opinion of what is happening, which is quite extraordinary, and totally irrational behaviour.

    But the worse part is the continued accusation of being akin to pre-nazi sympathisers.

    That last comment Bones was just about the lowest moment on this blog I have seen, and there have been a few.

    Steve every 2nd comment by someone who disagrees with you seems to be “the lowest moment in this blog”, you also seem to like throwing around the “irrational” tag don’t you?

  96. This nazi stuff is just so ridiculous. But, the reality is that on this blog if you oppose gay marriage, or hope that muslims will somehow stop their extremists from blowing people and things up, sooner or later you will be called a Nazi, or be likened to Hitler.

    It’s insidious, but we can’t let that silence us.

    Or should I stoop to their level and throw it back?

    Okay, just to show how anyone can use that. (This is an example – I don’t do this normally).

    Bones, you are like a Nazi in ww2 who when people want to stop the murder of Jews, start complaining that not all Nazis kill Jews, and show a video of Polish jews shooting German soldiers and saying “see they are doing it too”.

    Or how’s this.

    Greg says “We are each responsible for the way we respond to any given stimuli. Nobody makes me feel anything”

    So it would have been wrong or strange for Jews in ww2 to be afraid of Nazis??

    Steve and Roundhouse – I’m beginning to think this is just spiritual.
    The nonsense that comes back here, and the seeming hatred towards Christians here is just not rational.

    Okay, so now – can we stop this nazi stuff. I’m offended by it.
    It’s truly disgusting to equate Roundhouses comments to the conditions of the Holocaust.

    And for the record….I am totally sickened by the fact that some Muslim religious leaders and political leaders deny the holocaust.

    But, I would personally like to request the people in charge of this blog to ban people from saying “you’re like a nazi…etc etc.).
    It trivializes what went on then, but it also is overly nasty to people now.

    Also another request. Is it possible to have discussions here without saying dickhead and f-off etc.

  97. “Diversionary “tu quoque” response ploys usually start with the words “but” or “what about…?” in an attempt to turn, and transfer an equal culpability back on their interlocutor.”

    I just called that a Bonesian response.

  98. Not a Reformation, but a Revolution, at least:

    ABC News:

    Libyan protesters have clashed with militia fighters in the city of Benghazi after demonstrations in support of democracy and the disarming of of all armed militias.

    At least four people have been killed after military police and protesters took over several militia bases in a backlash against last week’s attack on the US consulate in the city.

    They include the headquarters of Islamist group Ansar al-Sharia, while there has also been a standoff outside the headquarters of another brigade called Saharty.

    PHOTO: Libyan demonstrators celebrate at the Ansar el-Sharia’s headquarters in Benghazi. (AFP: Abdullah Doma)
    Witnesses say militiamen opened fire as the crowd overran the Ansar al-Sharia base. Buildings and a car were set alight.

    The two sides clashed two hours before the brigade decided to move out of its base, effectively clearing the way for a horde of opportunistic looters.

    The assailants then set fire to one of the main buildings and pillaged weapons depots, walking away with electronic equipment, arms and ammunition.

    Hundreds of protesters also stormed the base of Saharty, forcing the group to flee.

    The assault came after an estimated 30,000 residents of Libya’s second city rallied earlier in the day against the influence of militias in the eastern city, which critics say have put themselves above the law.

    The “Rescue Benghazi day” demonstration called on the government to disband the groups, which have refused to give up their weapons since the NATO-backed revolution.

    Protest organiser Ahmed Sanalla says the rally was prompted by the killing of the US ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans earlier this month.

    He says people want security and stability in Libya.

    “That’s all we want, one police one army, no militias,” he said.

    The protesters have demanded that the army and police be strengthened and paid tribute to Mr Stevens.

    “After what happened at the American consulate, the people of Benghazi had enough of the extremists,” demonstrator Hassan Ahmed said.

    The demonstrators also took over a compound belonging to the Abu Slim Brigade, another independent militia, and another compound belonging to Ansar al-Sharia.

    Thousands of Libyans had earlier marched in Benghazi in support of democracy and against the Islamist militias that Washington blames for the assault on its consulate.

    “It’s obvious that this protest is against the militias. All of them should join the army or security forces as individuals, not as groups,” medical student Ahmed Sanallah said.

    “Without that there will be no prosperity and no success for the new Libya.”

    A rival demonstration by Islamist militias attracted far fewer people.

  99. I am totally sickened by the fact that some Muslim religious leaders and political leaders deny the holocaust.

    So am I. Check out what’s happening with Muslims in Myanmar/ Burma.

    Roundhouse denies it.

  100. I’m beginning to think this is just spiritual.
    The nonsense that comes back here, and the seeming hatred towards Christians here is just not rational.

    You seem to think that you represent the majority of Christians. Alas you only represent the ignorant ones.

    What has been displayed here is you don’t even believe Jesus. You don’t believe we should love and serve our enemies. You believe we should bear false witness against our neighbours. Apparently it’s OK to ignore injustices and atrocities committed against my neighbour, even my Muslim ones. You offer no solution at all but look how bad the Muslims are. I’m glad we’re not like them.

    Given that you don’t believe Jesus Himself, how can you call yourself a Christian?

  101. Bonesian – adj. Right wing Christian fundamentalist’s nightmare. Also means one who calls bs to account.
    Synonym: truthfulness.
    Antonym: lying, deceptive, fraudulant, bigoted

  102. Greg,
    That sort of thinking is the sort that criminals use when trying to defend assault or murder…”he looked like, he made me feel, he reminded me of, I thought he was…,” none of which stands up to scrutiny.

    So worldwide large, fanatical groups of Muslims destroy embassies, kill US Ambassadors, bomb churches, buses and cafés, burn cars and flags, kill each other in clashes, murder police and security officials, threaten the security of anyone who says cooey against their ‘prophet’, destroy female education centres, pour acid in women’s faces, riot and generally cause mayhem, and, even on the streets of Sydney, assault our police and take over the city centre to press their aims of intimidating the population, and you make the preposterous claim that any person who seeks to protect his children from their influence is akin to a criminal.

    You are either completely bonkers, or one of them.

  103. We could just quietly ask you to leave.

    Yeah you’d like that. Then you and the others can muse over how bad the Muslims are without any critical thought. Roundhouse can share with you the results of his ‘studies’ especially the terrible things ex-terrorists are saying like how Obama is a Muslim trying to bring in sharia law. And Q’ll come in and say how disgusting that is and it’d be one great threesome really. And you’ll agree and say yes I see that too.

    Unfortunately our nutbags think they’ve got God on their side too and like picking on people in the community and they don’t like listening to anybody else either.

  104. Do you realise for one second what you have done?

    You have selectively taken edited portions of what people say and put them into a file you had already named ‘nut bag file’ and pulled out, from the same file, information you imagined from other, unrelated, ‘nutbags’ and attributed it to the others, and followed up by writing some disgusting stuff which has no bearing on what anyone has said on this blog at any time.

    All three of your targets have tried time after time to correct you on this, but you persist with your punch drunk assertions of hatred, bigotry and unchristian behaviour.

    The more we tell you are misreading and misrepresenting what we say, the deeper you go not false accusations. It has become so pathetic it is practically a joke, except you don’t seem to have a sense of humour about it, and it is becoming more serious by the comment.

    I take it you don’t see the need to self-moderate.

    You really need to take a good look at yourself, Bones, because your not looking too smart at the moment.

  105. All three of your targets have tried time after time to correct you on this, but you persist with your punch drunk assertions of hatred, bigotry and unchristian behaviour.

    I’m only doing what you want the Muslim moderates to do.

    Calling my Christian nutbags to account.

  106. I’m heartened by what happened in Libya.
    When do we get to kick our nutbags out?

    Do you mean Christian nutbags in Australia? If Christian nutbags kill a foreign diplomat because of a video etc, you can start immediately. But I don’t see anyone like that.

    Bones, by Muslim nut bags, you mean people who kill people.
    By Christian nutbags,who do you mean? Do you know any Australians who are killing Muslims?

  107. “especially the terrible things ex-terrorists are saying like how Obama is a Muslim trying to bring in sharia law. And Q’ll come in and say how disgusting that is …”

    Here we go again. Bones, are you on medication?

  108. Is there any point in me saying that I don’t think Obama is trying to bring in Sharia law? That I’ve never said that or hinted at it?

    It must be hard living in Bones house. His wife says she doesn’t want to watch the footy tonight, and Bones starts raving that she’s a Nazi and wants to kill people who play sport.

    She tells him he should keep to the speed limit and he starts yelling at her for wanting everyone to drive at walking speed.

    Come on man, I’ve heard of people putting words in others mouths, but you take it to extreme levels. It’s not normal.

  109. I have some knowledge of the issue, having read many different books and listened to former Muslims speak on the exact issues I have raised here.

    Yep, we’ve cleared that then haven’t we. You need to edit the former Muslims to lying charlatans.

    It ain’t going to be pretty my friends.

    No it wasn’t. You’ve been shown to be a complete prat.

    You better go look in the bin. That’s where your integrity is.

  110. Bones, you think Australians aren’t Christians because they aren’t aware of Muslims getting killed by Buddhists in Myanmar??

    We should call this the twilight zone not signposts.

  111. @Q

    He’s fixated on the three ex-Muslims for some bizarre reason. My son has a friend who has been diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome. Bones so reminds me of this kid

  112. There is so much of Fundamentalist Christians that reminds me of cultic behaviour.

    Doesn’t matter how much evidence is displayed they can’t be wrong.

  113. That would be the three ex-Muslims going around telling fantasy stories of their lives as a terrorist and conning Christians and churches.

    Roundhouse has been trying to defend them all day.

    Interestingly without actually replying to any of the evidence raised.

  114. I don’t think Obama is trying to bring in Sharia law?

    Really?

    Well according to Roundhouse’s self-proclaimed experts on Islam he is and he’s a Muslim himself.

  115. @Bones

    “Three ex-Muslims”

    cuckoo!

    “Three ex-Muslims”

    cuckoo!

    “Three ex-Muslims”

    cuckoo!

    “Three ex-Muslims”

    cuckoo!

  116. Amazing, I just look at CNN and TIME websites and there’s country after country where violence and Islam are linked.

    But Bones thinks talking about that makes me a Nazi, and I should be more concerned about a couple of charlatans he found.

    zzzzzzzz

    Ciao guys.

  117. See you Q. I’m exhausted. All this laughing at Bones all day has worn me out. I’m off to bed. Looking forward to a new episode of “The Three ex-terrorists” tomorrow!

  118. Yes Q couldn’t care less about truth either. He’s as wrapped up in his own prejudices as anyone on here.

    See ya Roundhouse, you ‘expert’ on Islam you.

    Make sure you go and get your integrity out of the toilet. Because that’s where it is and it’s what you’ve been speaking all day.

  119. Well a toilet is merely a receptacle for what you’ve been pouring out if that’s the way you want to categorise things!

    Good grief!

  120. You’ve been sitting on the toilet all day, except you’ve missed a few times, and it’s running all over the place. Have you finished yet? It’s been stinky and we need to clean up, open the windows and spray air freshener.

  121. I mean, what have you been consuming, Bones, it’s coming out of both ends and it’s absolutely revolting. Never seen anything like it.

    I think we may have to demolish then entire building and start from scratch.

  122. I think you’ll find that’s Roundhouse’s filth.

    Would you like me more if I said Jews are liars?

    I have experts who can back that up.

  123. No, Bones, we’re all witnesses that it’s your filth.

    I need a shower just from being this close.

    Are you ADHD? Do you have some wish for people to get angry at your comments to feel as if you have been cleansed from some guilt?

    Whatever it is I hope you get through it soon, because it’s not good.

  124. That’s alright, Steve.

    Roundhouse can use his bigoted all Muslims are liars and you can congratulate him for it and high five him for it and giggle over how funny it is.

    Next time Chirpy’s on, make sure you do the same for him.

    I know of course that what Roundhouse said is offensive to most Christians let alone Muslims. Most I said. Not all. Not the ignorant ones.

  125. No Bones. You’ve been at more people than Roundhouse.

    You’ve just blamed him for your bad manners, that’s all, and then cried foul when I didn’t pull him up. It was you who made extraordinary claims about other commentaries. His was the argument he presented. I let your stronger stuff go through to the keeper too.

    But, had you been following the thread and not your own agenda you would have noticed that I asked everyone to tone it down and Roundhouse agreed. Job done. Q retired.

    You’re the only one who continued it. And you kept at it with me after Roundhouse chuffed off.

    Take responsibility for your own stuff.

  126. I’m not a child who is here to do your bidding. Roundhouse’s remarks were offensive to Christians and Muslims. You of course just sided with him. I’m not letting that bullshit pass just because Muslims have done some terrible things. If you followed any of the threads today you would see the source of roundhouses bigotry. He even repeated it with no passing comment apart from myself. The idea that all muslims are liars and seeking to take over the world is up fg here with jewish conspiracy theories. But no one on here likes muslims so your silence is actual support for his twisted belief.

  127. You could only say that if you’d not read my previous comments, or, indeed, the post on reformation.

    I have another life outside of blogging, so, as I said, I did not follow your major dispute with Roundhouse, and, when I looked into it, it was too wordy for me to allow that amount of time to it. That’s why I asked you and he anyone else to moderate yourselves. I have not moderated anyone.

    That I pointed your comments out had no bearing on some preference or a taking of sides.

    It was based, not your commentary, but on your use of strong language which had, in fact, been aimed at more than one commenter.

    But, please, feel free to do what you think best.

  128. Bones, in a fit of ludicrous exaggeration:
    no one on here likes muslims so your silence is actual support for his twisted belief.</I.

    No one? Really? What has a person's religion to do with anything?

    You are a real adherent to sectarianism. Us and them!

    As a practicing Christian I am asked to treat everyone equally. I do not consider a Muslim to be any less of a person in need of Christ than a Hindu, and atheist or a Zoroastrian.

    I am an evangelist, so I see every person I meet as a potential child of God if they will only receive Christ. My purpose in life is to do all I can to bring the gospel of Christ into their lives, and offer an opportunity for them to receive Him as Lord.

    I don't treat anyone differently to anyone else. I am called to love my neighbour as I love myself. I am a witness of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am here to give evidence of his death and resurrection. I am here to preach the cross wherever the opportunity arises.

    A person's background, culture, nationality, religion, age, colour, sexuality, gender has no bearing on who I am commanded to reach with the gospel.

    Commenting on here is an interest. I am speaking with people with varying views. I am not on this blog to preach but to discuss issues. This is not representative of the way I interact with the many people I meet and share my life with. It is more of a discussion club which sometimes goes into controversial subjects an ethical dilemmas.

    But who I am and what I do with the people I meet is another story, by necessity sometimes, because I am primarily a witness, not a critic.

    I have many Muslim friends and I am always ready to share Christ with them. They worship a false god. I am keen to see them come to Christ. But I am circumspect in the way I approach them.

    But to claim that I do not like them because I have pointed out a fault I have experienced with a few people in regard to the level of their integrity is both childish and foolish.

    You are not only a sectarian thinker, you are also extreme with it, and when you get going you become part of the problem, not the solution.

    I have no doubt that your response to this comment will be a rude remark which takes a single phrase from it and attacks it out of context. I will watch your response with interest.

  129. Roundhouse, are you going to raise your kids as racist bigots as well?

    Have you told your kids not to play with Muslim kids because they’re all liars and might try to cut their heads off?

  130. You are not only a sectarian thinker, you are also extreme with it,

    You’re the sectarian here dude.

    Your hatred of Catholics, gays, liberals, science and your support of Roundhouse’s extremist bigotry is there for all to see.

  131. Bones,
    I’m not a child who is here to do your bidding.

    No, you’re just a child with an abusive attitude who won’t listen to anyone about anything.

    Countless times I have said I hate no one, yet you make such a provocative, hateful comment.

    You need help.

    Seriously.

  132. Friends, we all peoples of the book. Allah is one God and God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed.

    I not disrespect you prophet, why you disrespect us? Mohammed saw that all peoples of the book are one.

    Bible is a mixture of stories about Allah, translated but Koran is true word of Allah dictated by angel.

    Does you Jesus happy with your behaving?

  133. Salaam Akhbae,

    certain Christians believe Muslims are liars who aren’t to be trusted.

    They also believe your religion incites violence.

    How to you respond?

  134. @Akhbae, your God and mine are not the same God. My God doesn’t demand the heads of those who are classed as infidels. My God does not hate His chosen people, the Jews, like your god does. My God also does not demand a jihad if He is insulted. Sorry, but we don’t follow the same God. That is the biggest lie that Islam teaches.

  135. but he seem to hate other Christians.

    It does appear that way. Not all Christians though, in fairness. Mainly Christians who aren’t bigotted.

  136. @Bones

    “They also believe your religion incites violence.”

    I don’t believe it incites violence, I KNOW it incites violence.

  137. If say all Muslims are liars, then this become a hate site. Some Muslims are liars and some violent. This not Islam.

    Where Islam say Allah hates Jews? Christians say Jews kill Jesus, but Allah not say.

  138. I KNOW it incites violence.

    Atheists say the same about all religions. Our nutbag ancestors were fanatical killers too. What stopped that is we live in a secular society which doesn’t tolerate religious persecution.

    Though some Christians would be quite happy to see it.

  139. islam is not a religion it is a death cult.

    Qur’an 2:191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

    Qur’an 17:033: And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.

    Verse 47:3 – “When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.”

    Qur’an 9:005: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Qur’an 4:091: You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

  140. Yep, the crazies and haters are out now.

    irvingjb, those verses are similar to some of the Old Testament.

    Funny that.

  141. Bones can you please quote a similar verse telling christians/hindus/buddhists to slay non-believers?

    what is the equivalent to taqiyya in christianity/hinduism/buddhism?

    what is the equaivalent to taqiyya in christianity/hinduism/buddhism?

  142. “Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:19)

    Prepare slaughter for his sons because of the guilt of their fathers, lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the face of the world with cities.” (Isaiah 14:21)

    Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished. Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. (Isaiah 13:15-18)

    So the people shouted, and the trumpets were blown. As soon as the people heard the sound of the trumpet, the people shouted a great shout, and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they captured the city. Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword. (Joshua 6:20-21)

    They warred against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every male. (Numbers 31:7)

    Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. (Hosea 13:16)

    “Go up against the land of Merathaim, and against the inhabitants of Pekod. Kill, and devote them to destruction, declares the Lord, and do all that I have commanded you. The noise of battle is in the land, and great destruction! (Jeremiah 50:21-22)

    He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys. (2 Kings 23-24)

    Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

  143. He’s as bad as those he defends

    I’m defending moderate Muslims from your vitriol.

    I wear that as a badge of honour.

  144. I am sorry these are not verses that command the faithful to slay all non-believers. try again.

    perhaps you can point to the passages on jesus’ life where he raids caravans or beheads a village of jews for showing him up to be a fraud? or perhaps you can show where buddha raises an army to conquer a city?

    there are no moderate muslims anymore then there are moderate nazies. Churchill was spot on. there are only those ignorant of the naure of the faith or those that invert good and evil and live the faith.

    & I am no more a hater of islam than I am a hater of HIV, yet both must be eradicated.

  145. The koran is the perfect word of god, timeless and unchanging:

    Verse 48:29 – “Muhammad is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.”

    Verse 66:9 – “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate.”

    Quran 17:16 “And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease, and afterward they commit abomination therein, and so the Word (of doom) hath effect for it, and we annihilate it with complete annihilation.”

    Bukhari 84:57 “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'”

    Verse 4:101 – “The unbelievers are your inveterate foe.”

    “I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.” (Quran 8:12)

  146. start with switzerlands lead, ban mosques and minarets, ban the burqa follow by banning muslim immigration and exporting muslim criminals. trade sanctions on countries that forbid apostasy or punish it. extract ourselves from mid east oil.

    do what obama is doing now, hunt down and kill the more radical elements.

    islam is a metastasizing cancer

  147. start with switzerlands lead, ban mosques and minarets, ban the burqa follow by banning muslim immigration and exporting muslim criminals. trade sanctions on countries that forbid apostasy or punish it. extract ourselves from mid east oil.

    That’s not going to eradicate Islam. There’s still going to be 1.6 billion of them.

    Btw the Swiss have banned the construction of new minarets. Muslims are free to attend mosques.

  148. The construction of new churches/synagogues etc or repair thereof is also banned in islam. Funny that.

    We don’t need to eradicate 1.6 billion people, we need only secularize the source of the problem. So far a big fat fail. The cancer is far more malignant then imagined.

    Most germans could have been classified as moderate nazies, wipe out the source and the problem quickly fades away.

    Put it this way, if we don’t succeed I don’t fancy being our grandchildren.

  149. So that was a lovely discussion and we’ve all come to a wonderful unity. So, did everyone have a great Sunday?

    I had a great day thanks Q. Had a ride out in the country with a mate, went swimming with my 2 year old son around 4.30. Church this evening. Just picked up another son from work and now I’m driving home to go watch a movie with my favorite gal! Magic day.

  150. Put it this way, if we don’t succeed I don’t fancy being our grandchildren.

    I wouldn’t fancy being any sort of relative of yours Irving; you’re an ignorant bigoted pig.

  151. And as this is my post I’m asking for the hatred of Islam to cease being passed off as care and concern for our western values…this is just plain old fashioned ignorance and bigotry, nothing else.

  152. The construction of new churches/synagogues etc or repair thereof is also banned in islam. Funny that.

    So you want to become like them?

    we need only secularize the source of the problem.

    How do you do that?

    Most germans could have been classified as moderate nazies

    Ah but all German weren’t Nazis. Even Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi Party.

  153. @irvingjb

    Greg and Bones would rather feel all warm and fuzzy because they stuck up for the poor shiny happy brutally oppressed religion of peace Muslims than actually discover for themselves the true nature of Islam. Who cares if thousands are murdered every day because of an evil cult, as long as Greg and Bones can pat themselves on the back.

  154. HI guys. I’ve decided to make Sunday, my argument/debate free sabbath day. Or like the time in ww1 where they buried the dead in no man’s land. So no argument from me tonight.

    So, good to hear you had a good day Greg. Being with 2 year olds is good for the soul,

    What movie did you watch?

  155. @Akhbar, if Allah doesn’t hate Jews, why is it the desire of every Muslim to wipe Israel off the map?

    Is it?

    In WWII, Albanian Muslims sheltered over 2000 Jews. Albania was a member of the Axis forces, a puppet of Mussolinis.

    When Muslims Saved Jews

    “As Muslims we welcomed them all. We welcomed them with bread, salt, and our hearts.”

    We hear many accounts of what happened during the Holocaust. The atrocities committed; the times and places in which unspeakable acts against humankind occurred; the millions of lives stolen too soon.

    But the story told above by Nazlie Alla, whose Albanian Muslim family sheltered Jews from Greece, Slovakia, and Germany, is less well known.

    It’s hard to imagine that in any European country there were more Jews at the end of World War II than before it began. But almost every single Jew in Albania, whether they were Albanians or refugees from other nations, survived during the German occupation.

    And Albania was the only European country to have a Muslim majority.
    The Jews were protected, through the raids and searches and the times in between, by Albanians who followed the national code of Besa: a code of honor, the deepest promise a person can give, and the word that is never broken. Under Besa, Albanians took Jews into their homes, treated them as family, fed and clothed them, and sacrificed their own safety and the safety of their families for the sake of their guests.

    Norman Gershman, a photographer and historian who traveled throughout Albania documenting the accounts of Muslim families who protected Jews, put out a book entitled Besa: Muslims who Saved Jews in World War II. He recalled that “What Besa says is that if some one knocks on your door you have an absolute obligation – no matter who that person is – to save their lives.”

    Albania at the time had around 800,000 citizens, only about 200 of whom were Jewish – though over 2,000 refugee Jews from Greece, Austria and Italy were taken in to the homes of Albanians as well. And it wasn’t just Muslims making sacrifices – the entire population, approximately 70% Bektashi Muslim, 20% Orthodox Christians and 10% Catholic – risked their lives to save Jewish strangers.

    The stories of righteous Muslims in Gershman’s book reveal that they understood Besa as an expression of the Qur’anic teachings of mercy, hospitality, and protecting the weak. Kujtim Civeja, a member of a traditional Muslim family of scholars, said “Our father wrote that when he had the opportunity and privilege to shelter so many Jewish families it gave him joy to put into practice his Islamic faith. To be generous is a virtue.”

    Hamdi Mece explained “We never took money from those we sheltered. We took them in under our Besa. We are true Muslims, and God granted us the privilege of saving Jews. All life is precious and given by God. To save a life is God’s gift.”

    Each portrait of a righteous person in this book is moving. But one in particular – Sadik Kalaja, who was twelve years old when his family sheltered a Yugoslav Jewish couple, allowing them to light Sabbath candles in their home – struck me.

    He said “My father gave us an order: If there is a knock on the door, take responsibility.”

    It’s an ethic of the Qur’an, it’s an ethic of Albanian national tradition and it should be an ethic of the 21st century.

    http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2009/06/besa_world_war_ii_re-told.html

  156. I’m watching The Way with Martin Sheen; written by Emilio Estevez. About a fathers journey along the comino de Santiago de compestella, with the ashes of his dead son who died while on pilgrimage. A pilgrimage movie

  157. @Q

    Wish I’d thought of that. Too late for me today I guess. Might do it tomorrow. Can you have a sabbath on a Monday?

  158. And as this is my post I’m asking for the hatred of Islam to cease being passed off as care and concern for our western values…this is just plain old fashioned ignorance and bigotry, nothing else.

    Hi Greg, I hope you’ve had a great weekend.

    Rest assured that I have been fighting the good fight, struggling not against flesh and blood but against the principalities and forces of darkness of bigotry and intolerance.

    I will fear no evil.

    For my God is with me.

  159. @Bones

    “For my God is with me.”

    Which God? Allah? Coz you say disgusting things about YHWH, but only good things about the moon god of Islam.

  160. Which God? Allah? Coz you say disgusting things about YHWH, but only good things about the moon god of Islam.

    Not your god, dipstick. You’ve made your own idol.

    My God is none other than Jesus Christ Himself.

    That’s who I listen to.

    That’s how I can tell fake, fraudulant behaviour.

  161. Considering the provocation came from muslims, they should have.

    The provocation continues north to this day. Why don’t you spend some time in Novi Pazar as a Christian and report back to us on exactly who is persecuting who?

    Seems to me you want to believe there is some form of moral equivalence or similarity between islam and other real religions, you keep referring to your guilt about our past as justification for islam’s evil.

    I have asked you to lay out the principles of islam vs real religions, you have not done so. To do so would bring into the light of day the intolerance, hatred, bigotry of islam towards non-believers. And note carefully how I said islam not muslims.

    One day aren’t you are going to be shocked when the penny drops.

  162. Hey Irving, tell us about the national liberation front of India? A Christian terrorist group. In August 2000, a tribal Hindu spiritual leader, Shanti Tripura, was shot dead by about ten guerrillas belonging to the NLFT who said it wanted to convert all people in the state to Christianity.[25] In December 2000, Labh Kumar Jamatia, a religious leader of the state’s second largest Hindu group, was kidnapped by the NLFT, and found dead in a forest in Dalak village in southern Tripura. According to police, rebels from the NLFT wanted Jamatia to convert to Christianity, but he refused.[26] A local Marxist tribal leader, Kishore Debbarma, was clubbed to death in Tripura’s Sadar (north) by militants belonging to the Biswamohan faction of the NLFT in May 2005.[27] He was dragged away at gunpoint by a group of NLFT militants. His body was found with multiple head injuries in a roadside ditch in the Katabon area.

    Andres Brejvic in his manifesto claimed the Norwegian govt was allowing immigrants to destroy the countries Christian values.

    The kkk…all good Christian men…you are so right…damned filthy Muslims, they need to be more like us don’t they

  163. And note carefully how I said islam not muslims.

    Ok, you’ve said this a couple of times…what do you mean? There is nonislam without Muslims and no Muslims without Islam. You’re on drugs…

  164. Here Roundhouse, you might learn something about forgiveness and reconciliation.

    One Christian lost 250 family members to Muslims.

    And still calls them his brothers.

    Darfuri Muslims Help Build Church as Sign of Peace

    Around 200 Darfuri Muslims have volunteered to build the Roman Catholic church in Kimotong, Southern Sudan – the home village of Lomong. The construction process began in January and is slated to be completed this fall.

    “As Sudanese Christians celebrate Holy Week, we want them all to know about this church,” said Dr. Abdelgabar Adam, the president of Darfur Human Rights Organizations USA. “It is our way, as Darfuri Muslims, to thank every Sudanese Christian who has helped us in our hour of need.

    “We need our brothers in the South to stand with us now more than ever, so that we will have a just peace,” added Adam, whose organization is partnering with Kansas-based non-profit group Sudan Sunrise in sponsoring the reconciliation church project.
    Composed of American and Sudanese Christians and Muslims, Sudan Sunrise works to achieve reconciliation and end the oppression in Sudan. The organization also works with Sudanese born former NBA player Manute Bol, who at 7’7’’ is the tallest player in NBA history.

    Bol lost 250 family members at the hands of the Muslim North during the Second Sudanese Civil War. He is working with Sudan Sunrise to build 41 schools that will benefit Southern Sudanese Christian, Darfurian and Muslim children alike.

    “Muslims are not my enemies,” Bol said, according to Sudan Sunrise. “They are my brothers.”

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/darfuri-muslims-help-build-church-as-sign-of-peace-44584/

  165. Hey Irving, tell us about the national liberation front of India? A Christian terrorist group.

    I love the way Greg and Bones can’t tell the difference between a group who identifies as “Christian” culturally and actual born again believers!

  166. Give me your review the Gregory.

    Won’t read it for a while – gonna watch a video with my babe too.

    Have a nice night everyone

  167. greg you seem to have a problem distinguishing between islam as a meme and mulsims as carriers of that meme. Read what I write not what you want to think I write.

    No amount of examples of other evil justifies what the islamic meme says its followers must do!

    http://www.christianpersecution.info/index.php?view=11262
    some 579 small churches and other faith groups with fewer than 50 adult members have effectively been declared illegal in Kazakhstan, leading to a 13 percent drop in registered religious organizations

  168. http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/08/16/religious-intolerance-and-indonesia%E2%80%99s-future.html

    Between 2000 and 2001 alone, there were 108 reported incidents of church destruction in Indonesia, according to the US Department of State in its 2002 Annual Report on International Religious Freedom.

    Tempo magazine in 2006 reported that between 1996 and 2005, about 180 churches were destroyed, burned or closed by force. The recent attack on HKPB church members in Bekasi and the forced closure of more than two dozen churches in West Java have added to the growing list.

  169. Muslim Heroism in the Holocaust

    By chronicling World War II stories in which Muslims went out of their way to help Jews — 70 Muslims are named by Yad Vashem as “Righteous Among the Nations” for aiding Jews in North Africa, Turkey and Albania during the Nazi era — the booklet aims to change those perceptions.

    Aside from physically saving people, the Muslims whose stories are retold in the booklet helped preserve Jewish life and culture, helping Jews obtain kosher meat before the Saabbath or saving the famed Sarajevo Haggadah.

    Mughal said he hopes the booklet will demonstrate to Muslims and Jews that “life is not black and white, straight and narrow.”

    http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/holidays1.php?Itemid=303

  170. @Bones

    I bet if I looked hard enough I could find plenty of videos of such peace loving luminaries like Saddam Hussein, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and Kim Jong Il helping build schools, help the “homeless” and various other “acts of charity”. It’s called propaganda. Another term for it would be Taqiyya.

  171. wow. I post about 1000’s of churches being destroyed and you guys post about a few meaningless meetings and a few strategic do gooders holding hands with Christians. As though that justifies the islamic meme.

    Your point seems to be there a few muslims who are good therefor islam must be good. LOGIC FAIL!

  172. turkey is a modern country

    http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/generalnews/2012/07/12/Turkey-Oldest-Christian-monastery-risk_7176199.html

    Turkey: Oldest Christian monastery at risk
    ANSAmed) – ANKARA, JULY 12 – The Mongolians failed to destroy it 700 years ago despite the massacre of 40 friars and 400 Christians. Yet the existence of the oldest functioning Christian monastery in the world, the fifth century Mor Gabriel Monastery in the Tur Abdin plane (the mountain of God’s servants) near the Turkish-Syrian border, is at risk after a ruling by Turkey’s highest appeals court in Ankara….
    Under the lawsuit, the Syriacs are accused of practicing ‘anti-Turkish activities’ by providing an education to young people, including non Christians, and of illegally occupying land which belongs to the neighbouring villages.

    After a number of contrasting verdicts, the highest appeals court in Ankara, which is close to the government, has ruled in favour of the village chiefs and said the land which has been part of the monastery for 1,600 years is not its property, Turkish newspaper Zaman reported.

    The lawsuit also claimed that the sanctuary was built over the ruins of a mosque, forgetting that Mohammed was born 170 years after its foundation.

  173. PONTIAN GENOCIDE: RIGHTEOUS MUSLIMS WHO REFUSED TO KILL

    May marks the anniversary of one of the most heinous crimes of human history – the genocide of the Pontian people by the by the Ottoman Government, directed by a group of leaders known as the Young Turks. It is well established that in the carnage, in which approximately 350,000 Pontic Greeks, 700,000 Assyrians and 1,500,000 Armenians were killed, simply because they happened to be of the ‘wrong’ race, ordinary Ottoman Muslims participated in the loot and tacitly or actively supported the slaughter. Today, an apology or even an acknowledgment of the genocide of the Christian peoples of Anatolia by the Turkish government is not forthcoming, pouring salt into the wounds of the few survivors and their descendants, who, dislocated from their ancestral lands, have had to save their culture piecemeal, as well as deal with inherited traumas induced by the memory of brutality.

    In this article by a member of the Greek community it details how

    * Muslims sheltered 20 000 Christians
    * Muslims protected Christians by inscribing Muslim symbols on the Christian’s bodies
    * Muslims refusing to execute Christians were killed themselves
    * The Muslim governor ordered the sacking of his Police chief and that the Christians who had converted to Islam to protect themselves should tear up their conversion applications and subsequently arrested those who came to kill them

    http://diatribe-column.blogspot.com.au/2011/04/pontian-genocide-righteous-muslims-who.html

  174. I am sure christians in syria are relieved to hear we have a muslim conference in kiev

    http://www.worthynews.com/11563-us-backed-rebels-committing-christian-genocide-in-syria

    DAMASCUS, SYRIA (Worthy News)– Christians are being targeted by Muslim rebels according to the Vatican and other sources amongst besieged Syrian Christian communities.

    According to reports by the Vatican’s Fides News Agency, the US-backed Syrian Army are sacking churches and issuing threats that all Christians will be cleansed from rebel-held territory.

    “The picture for us is utter desolation,” said Bishop Philip Tournyol Clos, a greek-Catholic Melkite Archimandrite. “The church of Mar Elian is half destroyed and that of Our Lady of Peace is still occupied by the rebels. Christian homes are severely damaged due to the fighting and completely emptied of their inhabitants, who fled without taking anything.”

  175. Another example of the shiny happy brutally oppressed peace loving Muslims spreading the love:

    Watch until the end when the organisers are frightened into stopping the film because of the violent “protesters”. Then watch what the peace loving Kumbaya Muslims do.

  176. @irvinjb

    Bones do you actually have a point??

    He never has a point. He just bullies, insults and spreads hatred towards Jesus and His followers.

  177. “I wonder sometimes what book people are reading who call themselves Christians and yet demonize other people.”

    Muslims and Christians come together despite taunts by ACT! For America

    Roberts reminded Christians what the Bible says about loving your neighbor as yourself.

    “I think to follow Jesus is to love all people,” he said. “To isolate a people, reject them or denigrate them, there’s nowhere in the scripture where Jesus approved of that or practiced it. If anything he pushed back really hard.”

    The popularity of the Gospel grew worldwide because “it’s an inclusive message for the world and was meant to be shared with every person,” Roberts said. “I wonder sometimes what book people are reading who call themselves Christians and yet demonize other people.”

    One of the most moving moments of the event was toward the end, when Roberts, speaking for Christians at NorthWood and other churches from Dallas and Saginaw, told the Muslims, “We love you.”

    After a standing ovation, a Muslim in the audience, Reyad Ghosheh of Allen, stood and replied to Roberts, “We love you too.

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/09/muslims-and-christians-come-together-despite-taunts-by-act-for-america/

  178. Might come as a shock to you Bones, but I am not christian. But I will defend christians right to practice a peaceful religion as opposed to the religion of hatred, violence and slavery that is islam.

    Why don’t you go live in egypt for a while Bones?

  179. This says it all.

    Where are you Steve?

    You agree with this Roundhouse?

    Bones:

    “Yeah irvinjb

    Mladic should have finished off Sarajevo and Srebrenica hey.”

    irvinjp:

    “Considering the provocation came from muslims, they should have.”

    So we have the legitimising of genocide.

    Congrats guys.

    You fit in well with the Muslims.

    Nothing of Christ in any of you.

  180. Might come as a shock to you Bones, but I am not christian.

    Yeah I gathered that.

    That’s OK, neither is Roundhouse.

  181. Another muslim tale of peace and love

    http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/biggest-holocaust-world-historywhitewashed-history

    The genocide suffered by the Hindus of India at the hands of Arab, Turkish, Mughal and Afghan occupying forces for a period of 800 years is as yet formally unrecognised by the World.

    The only similar genocide in the recent past was that of the Jewish people at the hands of the Nazis; of the Africans during the slave trade and also the almost total extermination of native populations like the Aboriginal people in Australia and the native Indians, Aztecs, Incas, etc. in North and South America.

    The holocaust of the Hindus in India was of even greater proportions, the only difference was that it continued for 800 years, till the brutal regimes were effectively overpowered in a life and death struggle by the Sikhs in the Panjab and the Hindu Maratha armies in other parts of India in the late 1700’s.


    “The Muslim conquests, down to the 16th century, were for the Hindus a pure struggle of life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindus skulls. Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the Hindu Kush, i.e. Hindu slaughter.”

  182. “So we have the legitimising of genocide.”

    Its called self defence Bones, perhaps a new concept for you that when someone is trying to kill you, you are entitled to defend with lethal force.

  183. @itrvingjb

    We real Christians here have been laughing at Bones unhinged postings for some time. Yesterday he ignored swathes of evidence proving vile brutality is the norm in Islam and fobbed off questions by fixating on whether three guys who say they are ex-Muslim terrorists really did do what they say they did. The entire day! And now he’s doing the same with you. Strange and a little sad really.

  184. You agree with this Roundhouse?

    Bones:

    “Yeah irvinjb

    Mladic should have finished off Sarajevo and Srebrenica hey.”

    irvinjp:

    “Considering the provocation came from muslims, they should have.”

    No, but provocation can cause bad things to happen. Suffer enough persecution, violence, innocent blood spilled by an aggressor, and something has to eventually give. I don’t condone it in any way, but I understand why it happened.

  185. Bones,
    Where are you Steve?

    You agree with this Roundhouse?

    This isn’t my post or thread, Bones, so you’re on your own with this. But why should I intervene anyway when you have made it clear elsewhere you are not going to moderate your language or terms of engagement even if I politely ask you to.

    Deal with it yourself, because he who slings the muck with surely receive it back seven fold, ad you are one heck of a mud-slinger.

  186. By the way chaps, there are two comments in moderation because you used more than one link in them. One link per comment is the WordPress recommendation to prevent spammers from getting through.

    The way things are going a dose of spammers would be a great relief!

  187. So Steve is here:

    What do you think of this quote:

    “I wonder sometimes what book people are reading who call themselves Christians and yet demonize other people.”

  188. This isn’t my post or thread, Bones, so you’re on your own with this.

    Ha what’s new. Worse than useless.

    I’ll take these two bigots on by myself.

    With God of course.

  189. Nigeria: Kano Finds Religious Unity In Subsidy Protest

    In kano a covenant has just been announced by the protest leaders that the muslim protesters shall protect all non-muslims and escort them to their places of worship and vice-versa. They vowed to resist any attempt to use religion to divide them.

    Christians are seen providing peripheral security to the Muslim protesters as they prayed in front of a police van.

    http://ogala.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/kano-finds-religious-unity-in-subsidy-protest/

  190. Well, Bones, I have been fellowshipping with the saints all day, and hearing a fantastic message from Canon J. John.

    I have not followed this thread much, even yesterday, and, when I started into it, I wasn’t really that interested in the way it was going. It just seemed like a big old ding-dong to me.

    So now I say I don’t run this thread, in other words, I can’t moderate it even if I wanted to, but you come back with some slap around the face about being on your own and calling me worse than useless.

    There you go again. It’s always about sides. Insults. Slaps. Argy-bargy. No subtlety whatsoever, and a persecution complex on top of it. Sectarian masochismic obsession.

    I can’t read your stuff if it is framed with invective, any more than I can read Roundhouse or the newly arrived irvinj.

    The only thing I can glean from this multi-rant inquisition, counter-interrogation of a thread and agree with you about is that we have no choice but to love all people of all religions, including Muslims and try our best to reach them with the gospel of Christ, even if we put our own lives at risk.

    I think I’ve said that before, so if you say it we are in agreement, aren’t we, and you are not on your own with that, are you? No! I thought not.

  191. So you have produced several articles which speak o Muslims having to protect Christians.

    That’s great.

    But what or whom are they being protected from, Bones?

  192. Apart from that, I don’t think it’s worth spending that much time and effort on Greg’s threads when he might pull the pin and delete it at any given moment.

    There are no guarantees, remember?

  193. See, you’re more disgusted by my language than Roundhouse’s bigoted belief that all Muslims are liars.

    Anyone with a skerrick of a brain can see that most Muslims are decent people.

    and agree with you about is that we have no choice but to love all people of all religions, including Muslims and try our best to reach them with the gospel of Christ, even if we put our own lives at risk.

    I think I’ve said that before, so if you say it we are in agreement,

    Well if you read your post, I’m obviously in agreement.

    The whole question can be boiled down to:

    Who is my neighbour?

  194. Greg might pull the thread, a Muslim might cut my head off.

    I’m used to surprises like that.

    I’ll get over it.

  195. Bones,
    See, you’re more disgusted by my language than Roundhouse’s bigoted belief that all Muslims are liars.

    I’m not running a thread to take sides with you or anyone, but to moderate the way in which you say it.

    I don’t know what it is you don’t grasp about this.

    If you accuse someone of being akin to Hitler or Brievik, or call them dickheads, morons, nutjobs, and whatever, then I say might something to assist you with avoiding ad hominem attacks as much as possible.

    But you even attack people for not joining you in attacking others.

    You just don’t get it do you!

  196. steve: “But what or whom are they being protected from, Bones?”
    Bones: “Your workmates?”

    steves workmates are muslim?? Everyone knows full well where the source of the violence is comming from.

    what do the suras say?

    Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. – Sura 2:98

    On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. – Sura 2:161

    Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191

    Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme Sura 2:193 and 8:39

    When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. – 47:4

    Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. – 41:14

    just charming. What does the Grand Central London Mosque teach?

    watch the series I posted earlier and you will hear:

    “you must love what pleases allah and you must hate what displeases allah”

    What is amazing is that there are any moderate muslims at all because clearly there is no such thing as moderate islam!

  197. Of course the people they are being protected from are the militant Islamists in their various lands, wherever Bones quoted from.

    I do work with Muslims, but I am in no immediate danger from them as I have a good relationship with them.

    Bones, as usual was unable to answer the question because he knows only too well what the answer is, yet can’t ever brig himself to say it without an extreme amount of persuasion, so he gives a facetious answer instead.

    I let this go by because it was so obvious to everyone else, but the mere fact that these people in Egypt, Indonesia, Libya and wherever had to have protection from modernised Muslims tells you how much danger they were in from the militants.

    It’s a nice thought, but whether there can be actually a ‘moderate’ Muslim is questionable.

    Can there be a moderate Christian? Or are they actually called luke warm or nominal if they are not fervently engaged with Christ and totally sold out to the gospel?

  198. @Steve

    Regarding “moderate” or “lukewarm” Muslims:

    From the Koran

    “It is only those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and whose hearts are in doubt that ask your leave (to be exempted from jihad).” – K. 9.45

    “But when a decisive surah (explaining and ordering things) is sent down, and fighting (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is mentioned (i.e. ordained) therein, you will see those in whose hearts is a disease (of hypocrisy) looking at you with a look of one fainting to death…” – K. 47:20

    So not going on jihad is a disease or mental illness in Muslims according to Allah/Mohammed.

    Not content with calling non-jihadists ‘diseased’, Mohammed insults them further; they are ‘garbage’:

    “Prophet Muhammad said; It is expected that the nations will call other nations to share them against you (Muslims) as the eaters call each other to eat from the food in front of them in a large wooden plate A person asked, Will that happen because of our small number on that day? The Prophet said, No. Your number will be great, but you will be rubbish like the rubbish of flood-water. And certainly Allah will remove from the hearts of enemies the fear of you and surely Allah will throw Wahn in your hearts. A person asked, What is Wahn, O Messenger of Allah? The Prophet said, Wahn is to love this world and to hate death.” – Abu Dawud 4284

    The Messenger of God said: The nations are about to flock against you [the Muslims] from every horizon, just as hungry people flock to a kettle. We said: O Messenger of God, will we be few on that day? He said: No, you will be many in number, but you will be scum, like the scum of a flash-flood, without any weight, since fear will be removed from the hearts of your enemies, and weakness (wahn) will be placed in your hearts. We said: O Messenger of God, what does the word wahn mean? He said: Love of this world, and fear of death.

    In this hadith, lukewarm Muslims love their earthly life and seek comfort and safety, whereas, real Muslims are jihadists who love death. Real Muslims are feared by kafirs. Fear of Muslims is what Allah wants.

    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/mohammeds-litmus-test/

  199. There can be no doubt that there are moderate Muslims. As Steve has said, he knows and works with many. As have I (contrary to the fairy tale construct that Bones has imagined about me). I’ll tell you an interesting story about one incident in another post, but my whole point is this – according to the Koran you are either a JIhadist, or you’re not of the Prophet. Now, for a Muslim who has grown up in a democracy, gone to a secular school and had many friends of different faiths it is conceivable that some of them will fall away from the faith and disown the teachings of Islam. It is not these people that I am talking about. It never has been. But Bones, as is his want, muddies any counter argument with massive generalisations, abuse and misquotations, while ascribing things to comments that were never there. It’s the standard modus operandi of the militant atheist left (that fact Bones claims to be a Christian is laughable – blind freddy can see that his claims of being born again are simply a ruse to prevent us seeing the real atheist he is). The problem arises when we misunderstand (or in Bone’s case, ignore) the fact that Islam is at the core of every Muslim’s being. For a Muslim to reject Islam has a much more serious “consequence” for a Muslim than it does for a Westerner brought up in the church. Islam teaches that Allah controls people’s wills and causes lukewarm Muslims to rebel against him by placing ‘al wahn’ (a disease, or mental illness) in their minds. Who wants to be accused of having a mental illness?Lukewarm Muslims are no different from kafirs (that’s you and I Bones)…they are ‘rubbish’ according to the teachings of Islam…so they must be replaced by real Muslims who conduct jihad.

    “O you who believe! What is the matter with you that when you are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah (jihad) you cling heavily to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life as compared with the hereafter. Unless you go forth He will punish you with a grievous penalty and put others in your place; but Him you would not harm in the least. For Allah has power over all things.” – K. 9:38-9

    That there are moderates there is no doubt. How long thy remain moderates is another story

  200. I’m not running a thread to take sides with you or anyone, but to moderate the way in which you say it.

    That’s good because Roundhouse and inrvingjp have justified the genocides of Muslims in Bosnia.

    Apparently they should have finished them off in Sarayevo and Srebrenica,

    Ask your workmates what they think of that.

  201. That’s good because Roundhouse and inrvingjp have justified the genocides of Muslims in Bosnia.

    You’re such a disgusting liar Bones. A vile, unhinged liar. I did not justify it, and you know it. But when have you ever told the truth?

  202. Meanwhile the vile Bones justifies daily slaughter of the innocents by his beloved shiny happy brutally oppressed peace loving Muslim “brothers”. You’re a sick man Bones, no two ways about it

  203. That’s ok Roundhouse, I’m sure Mladic appreciates your support. He was obviously provoked into committing atrocities.

    Milosevic says he agrees with you too.

  204. Blasphemous film: Muslims, Christians hold demos across country

    RAWALPINDI: the Christians staged a protest rally here on Sunday, demanding strict punishment for the US filmmaker. The rally, taken out from Catholic Church, marched on the Murree Road. Pastor John William, while addressing the rally, said that the blasphemous film had disturbed the inter-religious harmony. Extremism should not be allowed as all the religions give the lesson of love, tolerance, and brotherhood, he added.

    NANKANA SAHIB: The Christian community took out a rally against the blasphemous movie here on Sunday. It started from Salvation Army Church and concluded at the same place after passing through different places. The participants chanted slogans against the US and Terry Jones.

    TOBA TEK SINGH: The Christians took out a rally against the blasphemous movie at Kamalia on Sunday. It started from Christian Colony which was led by Shabbir Bashir and others. The protesters also condemned the burning of a church in Mardan.

    PESHAWAR: The Christian community on Sunday staged demonstration in the provincial metropolis against the sacrilegious film as the series of protests continued across Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. Members of the Christian community took to the streets under the banner of the Assemblies of God Churches in the Cantonment area.

    http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-17670-Blasphemous-film-Muslims-Christians-hold-demos-across-country

  205. An interfaith peace camp for children takes place each year in Harrisonburg, Virginia. Children of Islam, Christian and Jewish faiths interact with each other as they learn about the others’ traditions.

  206. Bones, you can probably come up with thousands of places on the internet with examples of Muslims doing nice things.

    It doesn’t change the problem of Islamic violence and terrorism.

    If you want someone to say that some Muslims help Christians and have throughout history – nobody is arguing with you.

    To say that Japanese aggression in ww2 resulted in the deaths of millions, and that terrible atrocities were committed is not negated by the kind deeds of some Japanese, and the fact that some Asians fought for Japan.

    (Now don’t start on 50 links about American and Australian ww2 atrocities…)

  207. Prayer used by Christian, Jewish and Muslim clergy during the First Gulf War

    Eternal God, Creator of the universe, there is no God but You.
    Great and wonderful are Your works, wondrous are your ways.
    Thank You for the many splendoured variety of Your creation.
    Thank You for the many ways we affirm Your presence and purpose,
    and the freedom to do so.
    Forgive our violation of Your creation.
    Forgive our violence toward each other.
    We stand in awe and gratitude for Your persistent love
    for each and all of Your children:
    Christian, Jew, Muslim,
    as well as those with other faiths.
    Grant to all and our leaders attributes of the strong;
    mutual respect in words and deed,
    restraint in the exercise of power, and
    the will for peace with justice, for all.
    Eternal God, Creator of the universe, there is no God but You. Amen.

  208. To say that Japanese aggression in ww2 resulted in the deaths of millions, and that terrible atrocities were committed is not negated by the kind deeds of some Japanese, and the fact that some Asians fought for Japan.

    To use your WWII analogy, what some on here are arguing and I’m counterarguing, is that all Japs are liars who can’t be trusted and even the old, the only good Jap is a dead Jap.

    Except insert Muslim for Jap.

    It’s an attempt to demonise a group of people which I reject.

  209. I don’t think all Muslims are liars and can’t be trusted. I have met a few that fall into this category, simply on the evidence they have shown me in dealings, but I know more who have no reason to obfuscate or be disingenuous. So I would say that, in my experience, some are, but many are not.

    That counts me out, then.

    Who else says all Muslims are liars and can’t be trusted?

    Roundhouse? Perhaps.

    Q? I don’t think so.

    IrvingJB? Probably.

    Anyone else Bones could possibly be talking about?

    I don’t think so. Which means an awful amount of time, effort and potential heart-attack type anger has been put into proving something we all know to possibly one or two people.

    Bones. You need a hobby!

  210. Bones,
    It’s an attempt to demonise a group of people which I reject.

    Are you saying you reject this group, or you reject the attempted demonisation?

    I think the whole demonisation was a subconsciously erected concoction, a contrivance of your own built on entirely your own opinion of others, false suppositions, political assertions and allegations.

    It’s been fascinating to watch.

  211. @Bones

    To use your WWII analogy, what some on here are arguing and I’m counterarguing, is that all Japs are liars who can’t be trusted and even the old, the only good Jap is a dead Jap.

    Except insert Muslim for Jap.

    Except the “Japs” don’t have a holy book telling them that to murder unbelievers is expected and that Jihad is the duty of every good “Jap”.

  212. That’s the point! I never said that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.
    I never said that every one of them was a habitual liar.
    That is the whole thing you are misunderstanding.

    Japanese committed terrible atrocities.
    Their aggression led to the loss of life of millions. But not every Japanese should be killed. I don’t hate them. But telling a story of
    a kind soldier doesn’t mean there wasn’t a problem!!

    I’d like Muslims to stop responding with violence and killing people. Not all do, so I believe it’s possible.

    I’d like to prevent dogs from mauling kids. I don’t hate dogs and don’t want them all put down.

    You need to just think a little more clearly.

    It’s nice that you don’t want a group to be demonized, but it would also be nice if you didn’t demonize us.

    Ok?

  213. Where’s your uber right wing mate gone, Roundhouse?

    I was fascinated on how he was going to eradicate Islam.

    Always a worry when Christians make alliances with the uber right nationalists.

    But then most of those are supposed Christians.

    Like Breivik on his own jihad.

    Japanese committed terrible atrocities.

    Yep. Murdered some of my own family.

    I don’t go blaming the Japanese who are living among us now. Some are even my friends.

    There is something called forgiveness and reconciliation.

    It’s in the Bible.

    You should look it up one day.

  214. It’s been fascinating to watch.

    It has been. It’s interesting how Signposts has degenerated into a hate thread with hate speech.

    Your siding with the ultra right is disturbing. Though I’m not surprised.

  215. @Steve

    Who else says all Muslims are liars and can’t be trusted?

    Roundhouse? Perhaps.

    i don’t think all Muslims are liars and can’t be trusted in everything they do and say. That’s a demented fairy tale construct from our resident object of ridicule, Bones. What I do say is that because the Koran tells Muslims that it is acceptable to lie and deceive to advance or defend Islam (Taqiyya) it makes them untrustworthy in my eyes. A true Muslim (I’ll come back to this point later) can and will say anything if it benefits Islam and/or agrees with the Koran, even if it means looking you in the eye and lying. If I were to ask you if you agree that the sky is blue, you would say “yes, of course”, because the evidence is plain to see. But if the Koran were to teach that the sky is purple, and that anyone who says that they sky is blue must be beheaded, and I were to ask a Muslim if he agrees with me that the sky is blue, then that Muslim, if he is devout and calls himself a true Muslim, would look me in the eye and say “yes, the sky is blue” while all the time believing the sky is purple. Then, depending on whether I live in Iran, Saudi Arabia or Sydney would be the difference on whether I keep my head or not. Any true Muslim will place their devotion to Muhammad and the Koran above anything else – mercy, compassion, honour, the laws of the land, and reason and logic. If the Koran teaches the opposite of what is right, legal or acceptable, it matters not to the true Muslim – he will do what the Koran says every time.

    Ok, I mentioned “true Muslims” before. What do I mean by that? Bones has gone to extraordinary lengths to try and prove that not all Muslims are murderous thugs hell-bent on taking over the world. On this I agree. BUT, in his psychotic attempt to demonise me, he has failed to understand the most important thing about Islam – a Muslim who does not do everything that is written in the Koran (i.e a moderate) is said in the Koran as having a mental illness and diseased (al-wahn). Islam is an all-consuming religion for it’s followers – it’s all or nothing. If you’re not devout, look out! The Koran teaches that if a Muslim is not following the Koran to the letter, then they will not only suffer in this life, but also in the afterlife. And there are plenty of Muslim “brothers” who would be more than happy to oblige in helping them suffer in this life, as well as helping them enter the afterlife sooner than expected. In short, a moderate Muslim risks everything to be moderate. Are there moderate Muslims? Yes, in the same way that there are Christians who are Christians in name only (Bones, anyone?). However, I honestly believe that those Muslims who call themselves “moderates”, yet still have devotion to the Koran and the prophet, are moderates in name only, practicing Taqiyya on an unsuspecting, or should I say gullible, West.

    This is why I say that I don’t trust Muslims.

  216. @Bones

    Where’s your uber right wing mate gone, Roundhouse?

    I was fascinated on how he was going to eradicate Islam.

    Always a worry when Christians make alliances with the uber right nationalists.

    But then most of those are supposed Christians.

    Like Breivik on his own jihad.

    You’re a vile worm Bones.

  217. So to sum up what has been said about Muslims

    They lie
    They aren’t to be trusted
    They hate Jews
    They are a malignant cancer
    Islam is to be eradicated
    They are an evil cult
    Islam is a meme and Muslims are the carriers (wtf is that about is that like a disease?)
    There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim
    Real Muslims love jihad
    Muslims are the enemy of Christ and Christians
    Vile brutality is the norm in Islam

    There you go Steve, something you can talk about with your work mates, tomorrow.

    They’ll appreciate how you defended them.

  218. @Bones

    They lie
    They aren’t to be trusted
    They hate Jews
    They are a malignant cancer
    Islam is to be eradicated
    They are an evil cult
    Islam is a meme and Muslims are the carriers (wtf is that about is that like a disease?)
    There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim
    Real Muslims love jihad
    Muslims are the enemy of Christ and Christians
    Vile brutality is the norm in Islam

    Yup. You got it.

    Apart from the meme thing. No idea what that means. And the moderate thing, which I answered above. But the rest are true.

    So, Bones, how do you feel about holding the cloaks while God’s people are murdered?

  219. Actually I’m more like this dude. He’s a real Christian, not a hater like you.

    Even after the murders in his family he forgives and hasn’t fallen for the lies that you have.

    Darfuri Muslims Help Build Church as Sign of Peace

    Around 200 Darfuri Muslims have volunteered to build the Roman Catholic church in Kimotong, Southern Sudan – the home village of Lomong. The construction process began in January and is slated to be completed this fall.

    “As Sudanese Christians celebrate Holy Week, we want them all to know about this church,” said Dr. Abdelgabar Adam, the president of Darfur Human Rights Organizations USA. “It is our way, as Darfuri Muslims, to thank every Sudanese Christian who has helped us in our hour of need.

    “We need our brothers in the South to stand with us now more than ever, so that we will have a just peace,” added Adam, whose organization is partnering with Kansas-based non-profit group Sudan Sunrise in sponsoring the reconciliation church project.
    Composed of American and Sudanese Christians and Muslims, Sudan Sunrise works to achieve reconciliation and end the oppression in Sudan. The organization also works with Sudanese born former NBA player Manute Bol, who at 7’7’’ is the tallest player in NBA history.

    Bol lost 250 family members at the hands of the Muslim North during the Second Sudanese Civil War. He is working with Sudan Sunrise to build 41 schools that will benefit Southern Sudanese Christian, Darfurian and Muslim children alike.

    “Muslims are not my enemies,” Bol said, according to Sudan Sunrise. “They are my brothers.”

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/darfuri-muslims-help-build-church-as-sign-of-peace-44584/

  220. Bones, I would have to say that your obsessive demonisation of people on these threads has been a sight to behold.

    You have made up some terrible lies about people. I asked you, on the other thread, politely, to calm down and moderate yourself, but you said you were not a child to be told what to do, and carried on.

    And even worse on this thread, which is the responsibility of Greg, who seems to think it’s OK for you and Roundhouse to go off the way you have without making any kind of remarks as to your mutual rudeness and affront to faith.

    Several times I have qualified my position, as has Q and you have constantly and without any sense of honour or appreciation continued to say the opposite to what we have told you.

    What does that make you?

    Now even Roundhouse has qualified his position and clarified it.

    For the record, as I said from the beginning, to him, actually, not just to you, I do not agree with his position, and consider Muslims as much a reason for communicating Christ as anyone, whether some lie or tell the truth, are good or bad.

    But yours has been the most lamentable and unsavoury warped attack on people I have witnessed for some time. And that includes Lance White in full flight.

    Now you place this disgusting summary on the thread and level it at me as an accusation.

    You are despicable. Really.

    But here’s a run down for you of what Paul thinks of those of us who do not yet have Christ, which would include every unbeliever, or follower of other ‘gods’, including Allah, Buddha or whoever, just to put things into respective, because I don’t know if you realise this or not, but your list of accusations of Muslims, which is totally contrived and concocted by your own imagination out of pure hatred ad malice, for which I hope you get some kind of medication sooner rather than later, bears a remarkable resemblance to the following passage, of which, before we come to Christ, we are all guilty.

    An we have to ask the question of ourselves. Are we better than they? No, not all. We and they all need Christ, and without Him are lost forever.

    Romans 3
    9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
    10 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;
    11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
    12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”
    13 “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “The poison of asps is under their lips”;
    14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
    15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
    18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
    19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
    25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
    26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    So remove from your list the epithet ‘Muslim’, and in it’s place add us all.

  221. Bones,
    IIt’s interesting how Signposts has degenerated into a hate thread with hate speech.

    You took Signposts there, Bones. You’re the chief hater.

    But it’s always been a hate site. The emphasis may have shifted, but it’s never stop hating. It was created by Lance out of hate, and transferred to Jake. Now the haters continue their angry defence of error rather than their attack on Pastors and Pentecost.

    The spirit of this blog was always ugly.

    Your siding with the ultra right is disturbing. Though I’m not surprised.

    That short paragraph is a prime example of your level of hatred.

    Even though I have given my position, and it is on the record, and nowhere near the ultra right as you contrive to call it, you persist in your lying little world of make-believe to add real peoples’ characters to your fantasy landscape of evil Christians who fight against your beloved homosexuals, catholics, Muslims and who knows who else you have encapsulated in your wicked mind to become the victims of some rotten conspiracy by anyone who claims to believe the Bible.

    Your ultra right main man is the evil Breivik, whom you have sided me with in your foul imagination despite the fact that I have asked you three times now to desist from such a vile accusation.

    But no. How many time sis that now that you’ve repeated this disgusting claim?

    That is hatred, mate, right there. In your words.

    Now, as Q pointed out, we have no choice but to forgive seven times seventy, and I will, he will, we will.

    But, you need to take a good look at yourself and ask yourself if you want to be throwing this monstrous crap around at people who are merely having a conversation on a blog.

    You’re not surprised, you say! I’m very surprised. That a man who considers himself rational can be so disingenuous even after he has been told his opinion is wrong, with explanations why, and asked to desist from the false assertions, and yet continues anyway.

    That is far worse that the extremists, falling only short of murder. At least they think they have their ‘god’ on their sides. Yo couldn’t possibly.

    I haven’t been engaged much in these conversations after the first flurries, simply because it got so ugly, and you’re not the only one to blame, but I didn’t see you trying to take the initiative to stop, not did I see you take any hints from me to wind down from the heavy hitting.

    No, you’re not a child to be told what to do, are you?

    Then what are you?

  222. @Bones

    They lie
    They aren’t to be trusted
    They hate Jews
    They are a malignant cancer
    Islam is to be eradicated
    They are an evil cult
    Islam is a meme and Muslims are the carriers (wtf is that about is that like a disease?)
    There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim
    Real Muslims love jihad
    Muslims are the enemy of Christ and Christians
    Vile brutality is the norm in Islam

    Yup. You got it.

    Apart from the meme thing. No idea what that means. And the moderate thing, which I answered above. But the rest are true.

    So, Bones, how do you feel about holding the cloaks while God’s people are murdered?

    There’s your hate speech right there dude.

    I always knew it was there.

    You’re the type who if someone yelled out “f**king Nazis” while the Nazis were rounding up Jews would be more offended by the harsh language.

    Seen the hypocrisy already. The hounding of Greg over his language and the silence on Roundhouse’s hate.

  223. “Japanese committed terrible atrocities.
    I don’t go blaming the Japanese who are living among us now. Some are even my friends.”

    That’s right. Neither do I. I used this analogy to show that yes there were atrocities. If I lived at the time, I would have been wary of Japanese soldiers. And that would have been smart. But like I said, not all Japanese soldiers committed atrocities. Some were kind. But it doesn’t change the fact that Japanese committed atrocities.

    “There is something called forgiveness
    You should look it up one day.”

    Yeah, I’ve heard about it. I mentioned it on a thread yesterday too.
    🙂
    There’s nothing I’ve said that indicates that I haven’t forgiven anyone.

    The main point I continually made is that I hope there is a stop to terrorism and Muslim violence. We have a problem in the world right now. Muslims can stop their violence more than I can ensure that nobody in the world will make something offensive.

    I can’t stop a Christian on a blog calling me a nazi, nut job, moron or idiot etc. But, I can stop myself from bashing him up or killing him.

    I think Mr Bones, you just don’t want to stop attacking.

    In fact, it really seems likes you are demonizing me and have unforgiveness.

    But at the very least you are misrepresenting me.

    And in case you still don’t understand my point, I have many more Japanese friends than you do!

    I don’t hate Muslims, gays or Japanese. I don’t even hate strange obsessed men who keep lobbing insults and insinuations at me.

    Anyway, it’s a new day. I forgive you. (now, 489 times to go – which will be a cinch – you’ll probably insult me less than even 50 times today.. 🙂

  224. “You’re the type who if someone yelled out “f**king Nazis” while the Nazis were rounding up Jews would be more offended by the harsh language.”

    You’re the type who would be showing people youtube videos of Jews fighting back and killing germans in Poland and saying the Jews are just as bad.

    You’re the type who would be showing some Nazis giving a Jew a chocolate and saying that they are humans like we are.

    You’re the type would would be arguing that the Jews were financially oppressing the Germans.

    You’re the type who would say that not all Nazis were bad and that we should realize that there are moderate Nazis and wonderful Germans and the Jews should just forgive.

    You sir are Neville Chamberlain. Except you are neville Chamberlain who is spending all your time defending the Nazis and berating the Jews and Churchill.

    You are type who thought the Jews and CHurchill should just show love to the Nazis and improve their quality of life.

    You sir, are are nutjob moron!

    (Okay, remember – love me, seek dialogue with me, and realize that you will have to forgive me probably another 480 times today! 🙂

    btw, Will we ever be able to stop this Nazi comparison thing here?

    For the record,
    I don’t hate Germans now. I have German friends. I am glad they stopped killing Jews. But when they were killing Jews, invading Poland, and dropping bombs on England, I think it was okay for people to be wary of Germans, and think “Gee I wish Germans/nazis/HItler would stop killing people.

    ps.
    Bones, I love you, I forgive you, I think some of your family members are nice moderate people…:)

  225. @Bones

    There is no hatred in my feelings towards Muslims. Opposing something does not equal hate. That is simply another demented fairy tale construct that seems to be the standard modus operandi of the bleeding heart left, and by extension, your own. Look at the ridiculous bleating by yourself and Greg, and every other Gay lobbyist on the planet equating opposition to Gay marriage with hatred. It’s the way children think, not mature adults.

    So, do I think that every Muslim has the potential to place the Koran before everything else, and obey it’s teachings to kill me and my family? Yes. Do I think every Muslim has the potential to lie to my face and deceive me to further the cause of Islam? Yes. Why? Because the Koran, their Holy book, DEMANDS that they do. Do I believe that every Muslim WILL do these things? NO! I’ll say that again for you Bones, because comprehension isn’t your strong point – NO!!! And that’s where you continually miss my point. In your quest to squash everyone and everything that doesn’t fit into your 2 square inches of worldview, you have ignored what I have actually written and constructed your own version, causing yourself to go into spittle-flecked bouts of unhinged rage. You imagine offense where none was given. You read one sentence and create your own interpretation of the rest of the passage and then spend hours feverishly searching Google for any wacko website that will support your warped ideology. Sadly for me, your fantasy interpretation of what I write has swayed others to side with you. Even Steve, who I respect greatly, has failed to see what I have actually written but has only gained an “overview” from your rants and selected quoting.

    I have stated several times that I don’t hate Muslims. But I do hate Islam. I hate this demented religion that is causing untold horror around the world. And this horror ain’t going to stop. In our naiveté in apologising for it, we allow it to take deeper root in our democracies and societies. I am trying to wake you all up! In kowtowing to Islam, we are laying our own heads on the chopping block willingly. I for one don’t want to wake up one day and find I now live in an Islamic Caliphate. And unless we talk about what is really behind the rise of Islam instead of grovelling at Islam’s feet in supposed “forgiveness”, inclusivity” and “tolerance”, then we will find ourselves and our families subjected to the same kinds of persecutions that the early Christians suffered at the hands of the Romans. And it won’t come from an Al-Quaida operative flown out especially from Afghanistan, but by our neighbours and the guy behind the counter at 7 Eleven.

  226. btw, I don’t really feel that on this website I’m on anyone’s team or side. So, i think it’s okay for me to choose which posts I comment on or respond to. I also don’t read every post.

  227. @Q

    I don’t really feel that on this website I’m on anyone’s team or side.

    There should only be one side Q, and that is on Jesus’ side. Sadly, Jesus seems to be underrepresented here.

  228. Actually Roundhouse….

    .He’s on my side. But it’s supposed to be a secret. Those with eyes to see and ears that hear were supposed to eventually work it out.

  229. Q

    So by your WWII analogy you’re comparing Muslims who own the kebab shop down the street with Nazis.

    Keep going with your military analogies btw. My family has been involved in every conflict since WWI save Korea and the Iraq Wars and yes that includes the war on terror.

    I’m not quite sure why we’re fighting the Taliban but if it’s to improve the lot of most Muslims in Afghanistan than I’m happy to have members of my family involved in that.

    Who is arguing for appeasement?

    Far from it. UN forces need to be deployed in more areas of the world like Africa, Palestine and the Sudan with orders to use lethal force to protect minorities and populations.

    As for your Neville Chamberlain comparison. I’m arguing more along the lines of those who were against the detention of Japanese Americans in WWII. These were loyal Americans of Japanese ancestry who were associated with the evil Japs even though they had lived there for years.

    Check out the US 442nd Infantry Regiment comprised of interned Japanese Americans. It is the most highly decorated regiment in the history of the US Armed Force. Yet it was subjected to accusations of being traitors and racial vilification because they were Japanese.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States

    While your on that you might want to check out the role of Muslim regiments who had a history of extreme bravery in combating Nazis and the Japanese in WWII. The treatment by France on its Muslim soldiers was particularly onerous interning and executing some after the war.

    There is much ignorance of Islam in this thread that I’ve shown.

    None more so than Roundhouse’s accusation that Muslims hate the Jews.

    As I’ve shown Muslims have protected Jews in the past. It is not a doctrine of Islam and even in the middle ages Islam was more tolerant of other religions than Christianity was, especially in Spain where the treatment of the Jews by Muslims and Christians couldn’t be further apart although Roundhouse will roll out Iran’s nutbag leader as evidence of how all Muslims hate Jews.

    Some Muslims are pissed off with Israel of course. Middle East Christians are as well.

    I’m glad we have hate speech laws too btw and I’m more than happy to have radical Islamists interned and no not sent somewhere else where they can continue their own brand of hate.

    The punishment for radical Islamic fanatics should be to spend time with Roundhouse. And that can be Roundhouse’s punishment as well.

  230. Sadly, Jesus seems to be underrepresented here.

    I’ll say. Only me and Greg representing Him. Even though we’re outnumbered we will still overcome.

    God is great.

    (What’s that in Arabic?)

  231. @Bones

    Some Muslims are pissed off with Israel of course.

    A quaint way of saying that they want to wipe Israel off the map. They hate Israel and every Muslim’s desire is to see every Jews head on a pike.

    Only me and Greg representing Him.

    I’d love to see what the real God would have to say about that. Yours and Greg’s god is a p***k

  232. And by “p***k”, I mean “prank”. As in, you follow no god but your own “intellect” and “reason”. You’re both humanists dressed up in semi-religious language. You’re both pulling one big prank on us, couching your hatred of God in religious language.

  233. They hate Israel and every Muslim’s desire is to see every Jews head on a pike.

    All 1.6 billion of them hey.

    You know they could have wiped them out while they had the chance, like when they had control of European countries and of course they could have wiped out the small number of Jews living in Palestine at any thime they wanted pre 1900.

    Then there would have been no partition and no Israel.

    Of course the it’s the whole Middle East conflict which is a thorn in Muslim’s sides.

    But any way let’s look at other evidence.

    Islamic-Jewish Relations

    Jews in the Qur’an

    The Qur’an says that all righteous Jews and Christians are promised nearness to God in Heaven:


    Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    —Qur’an, sura 2 (Al-Baqarah), ayat 62[29]
    [1]


    Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book (the Jews and Christians) are a portion that stand (for the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
    They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works. They are in the ranks of the righteous.
    Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knoweth well those that do right.

    —Qur’an, sura 3 (Al-Imran), ayat 113-115[30]
    [2]


    And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (the Jews and Christians), those who believe in God, in the revelation given to you, and in the revelation given to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account.

    —Qur’an, sura 3 (Al-Imran), ayat 199[31]

    Middle Ages

    In the Iberian Peninsula, under Muslim rule, Jews were able to make great advances in mathematics, astronomy, philosophy, chemistry and philology.[48] This era is sometimes referred to as the Golden age of Jewish culture in the Iberian Peninsula.[49]

    Traditionally Jews living in Muslim lands, known (along with Christians) as dhimmis, were allowed to practice their religion and to administor their internal affairs but subject to certain conditions.[50] They had to pay the jizya (a per capita tax imposed on free, adult non-Muslim males) to the Muslim government but is exempted from paying the zakat (a tax imposed on free, adult Muslim males).[50] Dhimmis were prohibited from bearing arms or giving testimony in most Muslim court cases, for there were many Sharia laws which did not apply to Dhimmis, who practiced Halakha.[51] A common misconception is that of the requirement of distinctive clothing, which is a law not taught by the Qur’an or hadith but invented by the Shia in early medieval Baghdad.[52] Jews rarely faced martyrdom or exile, or forced compulsion to change their religion, and they were mostly free in their choice of residence and profession.[53] The notable examples of massacre of Jews include the killing or forcible conversion of them by the rulers of the Almohad dynasty in Al-Andalus in the 12th century.[54][55] Notable examples of the cases where the choice of residence was taken away from them includes confining Jews to walled quarters (mellahs) in Morocco beginning from the 15th century and especially since the early 19th century.[56] Most conversions were voluntary and happened for various reasons.

    The medieval Volga state of Khazaria converted to Judaism, whereas its subject Volga Bulgaria converted to Islam.

    Contemporary era

    Iran contains the largest number of Jews among Muslim countries and Uzbekistan and Turkey have the next largest communities. Iran’s Jewish community is officially recognized as a religious minority group by the government, and, like the Zoroastrians, they were allocated a seat in the Iranian parliament. In 2000 it was estimated that at that time there were still 30–35,000 Jews in Iran, other sources put the figure as low as 20–25,000.[65] They can not emigrate out of Iran, since the government only allows one family member to leave & be out of the country at a time. A Jewish businessman was hanged for helping Jews emigrate. [66]

    In present times, the Arab-Israeli conflict is a defining event in the relationship between Muslims and Jews. The State of Israel was proclaimed on 14 May 1948, one day before the expiry of the British Mandate of Palestine.[67] Not long after, five Arab countries—Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq—attacked Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.[67] After almost a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were instituted. Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip. Israel was admitted as a member of the United Nations on 11 May 1949.[68] During the course of the hostilities, 711,000 Arabs, according to UN estimates, fled or were expelled.[69] 1948 also saw a similar Jewish exodus from Arab lands where Jews were forcibly expelled or fled from Arab nations due to persecution.[70]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic%E2%80%93Jewish_relations

  234. Yours and Greg’s god is a p***k

    Seems you’ve made god in your own image. Just because you’re one doesn’t mean God is.

  235. @Bones

    Your ignorance of the bible is showing. It is well documented in the bible that as God’s chosen people they have a role in these last days. Satan has tried to wipe them out many times, yet their complete destruction was prevented because of their status as God’s chosen. The fact you don’t know this is very telling.

    Your knowledge of the Koran and Islam is just as ignorant. Have you ever heard of progressive revelation, or Nasikh as the Muslims call it Bones? Actually, no need to answer that. It’s obvious you have no idea. Progressive Revelation is where a later revelation replaces (or in the Bible’s case, shines new light on or builds upon) a former one. The Koran’s later teachings, according to Islamic belief, replace the former teaching. The historical Mohammed initially respected the Jews and the Christians, but as he went progressively insane, his writings became more violent towards “the people of the book”. Later teaching in the Koran about killing Christians and Jews supersedes earlier, more “tolerant” views of the Jews and Christians. The fact that Muslims know this, yet still insist that the Koran teaches peace and respects Jews and Christians, is a perfect example of Taqiyya – saying one thing yet believing and acting upon another.

    Now, try to keep up. If you’re going to debate us adults, you need to start acting like one. Do your research instead of regurgitating tired old, disprovable theories.

  236. So why are there still Jews in iran?

    Even represented in parliament. Ahmenajab should have liquidated them years ago.

    They have Jewish synagogues and schools even.

    A pity that the history of Muslims and Jews doesn’t back up your rambling retarded beilefs.

    Current status in Iran

    Iran’s Jewish community is officially recognized as a religious minority group by the government, and, like the Zoroastrians, they are allocated one seat in the Iranian Parliament. Ciamak Moresadegh is the current Jewish member of the parliament, replacing Maurice Motamed in the 2008 election. In 2000, former Jewish MP Manuchehr Eliasi estimated that at that time there were still 60,000–85,000 Jews in Iran; most other sources put the figure at 25,000.[56] The United States State Department estimated the number of Jews in Iran at 20,000–25,000 as of 2009.[57]

    Today Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues, many of them with Hebrew schools. It has two kosher restaurants, an old-age home and a cemetery. There is a Jewish library with 20,000 titles.[20] Iranian Jews have their own newspaper (called “Ofogh-e-Bina”) with Jewish scholars performing Judaic research at Tehran’s “Central Library of Jewish Association”.[58] The “Dr. Sapir Jewish Hospital” is Iran’s largest charity hospital of any religious minority community in the country;[58] however, most of its patients and staff are Muslim.[59]

    Chief Rabbi Yousef Hamadani Cohen is the present spiritual leader for the Jewish community of Iran.[60] In August 2000, Chief Rabbi Cohen met with Iranian President Mohammad Khatami for the first time.[61] In 2003, Chief Rabbi Cohen and Maurice Motamed met with President Khatami at Yusef Abad Synagogue which was the first time a President of Iran had visited a synagogue since the Islamic Revolution.[62] Haroun Yashayaei is the chairman of the Jewish Committee of Tehran and leader of Iran’s Jewish Community.[62][63] On January 26, 2007, Yashayaei’s letter to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad concerning his Holocaust denial comments brought about worldwide media attention.[64][65][66]

    The Jews of Iran have been best known for certain occupations like making gold jewellery and antique dealing, textiles and carpets.

    [edit] Conditions

    Jews are conscripted into the Army like all Iranian citizens. Many Iranian Jews fought during the Iran-Iraq war (1980–1988) as drafted soldiers.[citation needed] About 15 were killed.[67] It has been reported that Jews in Iran are proud of their heritage.[citation needed]

    Jewish citizens are permitted to obtain passports and to travel outside the country, but they often are denied the multiple-exit permits normally issued to other citizens.[citation needed] With the exception of certain business travelers, the authorities require Jews to obtain clearance and pay additional fees before each trip abroad. The Government appears concerned about the emigration of Jewish citizens and permission generally is not granted for all members of a Jewish family to travel outside the country at the same time.

    The Association of Tehrani Jews said in a statement, “We Iranian Jews condemn claims of the US State Department on Iranian religious minorities, announced that we are fully free to perform our religious duties and we feel no restriction on performing our religious rituals.” [68]

    In spite of the many allegations about discrimination by the US state department, the Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad reported that mass emigration to the USA is due to economic reasons and not to religious persecution.[69]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

  237. Look Jews are living in Iran

    Maybe they’re zombies, Khomeini even protected them.

    IRAN: Life of Jews Living in Iran

    Iran remains home to Jewish enclave.

    By Barbara Demick

    TEHRAN – The Jewish women in the back rows of the synagogue wear long garments in the traditional Iranian style, but instead of chadors, their heads are covered with cheerful, flowered scarves. The boys in their skullcaps, with Hebrew prayer books tucked under their arms, scamper down the aisles to grab the best spots near the lush, turquoise Persian carpet of the altar. This is Friday night, Shabbat – Iranian style, and the synagogue in an affluent neighborhood of North Tehran is filled to capacity with more than 400 worshipers.

    It is one of the many paradoxes of the Islamic Republic of Iran that this most virulent anti-Israeli country supports by far the largest Jewish population of any Muslim country.

    While Jewish communities in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Morocco and Algeria have all but vanished, Iran is home to 25,000 – some here say 35,000 – Jews. The Jewish population is less than half the number that lived here before the Islamic revolution of 1979. But the Jews have tried to compensate for their diminishing numbers by adopting a new religious fervor.

    ”The funny thing is that before the Islamic revolution, you would see maybe 20 old men in the synagogue,” whispers Nahit Eliyason, 48, as she climbs over four other women to find one of the few vacant seats. ”Now the place is full. You can barely find a seat.” Parvis Yashaya, a film producer who heads Tehran’s Jewish community, adds: ”We are smaller, but we are stronger in some ways.”

    Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues, many of them with Hebrew schools. It has two kosher restaurants, and a Jewish hospital, an old-age home and a cemetery. There is a Jewish representative in the Iranian parliament. There is a Jewish library with 20,000 titles, its reading room decorated with a photograph of the Ayatollah Khomeini.

    Khomeini protection

    Iran’s Jewish community is confronted by contradictions. Many of the prayers uttered in synagogue, for instance, refer to the desire to see Jerusalem again. Yet there is no postal service or telephone contact with Israel, and any Iranian who dares travel to Israel faces imprisonment and passport confiscation. ”We are Jews, not Zionists. We are a religious community, not a political one,” Yashaya said.

    Before the revolution, Jews were well-represented among Iran’s business elite, holding key posts in the oil industry, banking and law, as well as in the traditional bazaar. The wave of anti-Israeli sentiment that swept Iran during the revolution, as well as large-scale confiscations of private wealth, sent thousands of the more affluent Jews fleeing to the United States or Israel. Those remaining lived in fear of pogroms, or massacres.

    But Khomeini met with the Jewish community upon his return from exile in Paris and issued a ”fatwa” decreeing that the Jews were to be protected. Similar edicts also protect Iran’s tiny Christian minority.

    Just as it radically transformed Muslim society, the revolution changed the Jews. Families that had been secular in the 1970s started keeping kosher and strictly observing rules against driving on Shabbat. They stopped going to restaurants, cafes and cinemas – many such establishments were closed down – and the synagogue perforce became the focal point of their social lives.

    http://www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.html

  238. The problem is Roundhouse is that Muslims have a problem with the state of Israel and Zionism. Not Judaism itself. It is in essence a political not religious problem for them.

  239. You don’t read anything I post, do you?

    Sometimes, but it’s mostly bs.

    Now why are Jews in Iran worshipping in synagogues with Jewish schools and member of parliament if Muslims want Jews wiped off the map?

    Tell me why?

    Why?

  240. @Bones

    In WWII the Japanese created an Allied POW camp whose sole purpose was to trick the Allies into believing that prisoners were well treated. They forced prisoners to act like they were treated humanely and in excellent conditions, and filmed a “documentary to “prove” that the Japanese were gracious hosts and treated their prisoners better than the Geneva Convention required.

    Of course, we know it was all a ruse. The Japanese in reality were monsters. At the same time this film was being produced, thousands of Allied prisoners were being tortured and starved to death in camps around South East Asia. Tragically, many in the West believed their ruse.

    The Germans did the same regarding the Jews. They produced many films showing their “humane” treatment of their prisoners. At the same time these films were being produced hundreds of thousands were being sent to the gas chambers. It’s called propaganda Bones. The stories you have linked to are propaganda. Iran is one of the most brutal regimes this planet has ever seen. Christians and Jews are murdered every day. The fact you believe their propaganda is tragic. Tell you what Bones. I will buy you an airfare to Iran. I will pay for you to fly to Iran on the condition that you stand in Azidi Square in Tehran for a whole day holding a sign saying that Jesus Christ is Lord and there is no other way to heaven except by Him. Come on, I dare you. I’ll put my money where your mouth is. Let’s see how long your head would remain on your shoulders in that Christian loving, peace filled nation.

  241. Look Jews live in Turkey as well.

    Turkish Jews today

    The present size of Jewish Community is estimated at around 20,000, out of a total population of 70 million. The vast majority, about 18,000, live in Istanbul, with a community of about 1,500 in Izmir and other smaller groups located in Adana, Ankara, Bursa, Canakkale, Iskenderun and Kirklareli. Sephardis make up 96% of the Community, with Ashkenazis accounting for the rest. There are about 100 Karaites, an independent group that does not accept the authority of the Chief Rabbi.

    Turkish Jews are legally represented, as they have been for many centuries, by the Hahambasi, the Chief Rabbi. Rav David Asseo, Chief Rabbi since his election in 1961, is assisted by a religious Council made up of a Rosh Bet Din and three Hahamim. Thirty-five Lay Counselors look after the secular affairs of the Community and an Executive Committee of fourteen, the president of which must be elected from among the Lay Counselors, runs the daily affairs.

    Synagogues are classified as religious foundations (Vakifs). There are 23 active synagogues in Turkey, 16 of which are in Istanbul . Three are in service in holiday resorts, during summer only. Some of them are very old, especially Ahrida Synagogue in the Balat area, which dates from middle15th century. The 15th and 16th century Haskoy and Kuzguncuk cemeteries in Istanbul are still in use today.

    Most Jewish children attend state schools or private Turkish or foreign language schools, and many are enrolled in the universities. Additionally, the Community maintains a primary school for 300 pupils and a secondary school for 250 students in Istanbul, and an elementary school for 140 children in Izmir. Turkish is the language of instruction, and Hebrew is taught 35 hours a week.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Turkey.html

  242. Bonesy, you’re raving again. The Neville quote was in response to your silly Nazi stuff.

    And you seem to just want to be defending everything to do with Islam again? Now you’re defending Iran?

    And nobody is wanting to intern all Jews.

    But here’s the thing about history. Japanese can tell you all about the injustices against the Japanese in America, but hardly anyone knows about atrocities. And it’s because of people like you. You seem to want to say everything nice you can about the enemy and just attack the normal people who are being attacked.

    It’s getting weird. The head of Iran says pathetic things about Israel – but you write paragraphs about how wonderful Iran is.

    Muslims are killing people in Nigeria, and you want to talk about Nigerian Christians attacking Muslims, and talk about how wonderful some Muslims are there.

    The analogy about Japanese is crazy though.

    Oh I give up. No matter what anyone says, you come up with a spiel about how great Muslims are and how bad Christians are.

    You could rave for hours about C3, Hillsong and the Baptists and never tire. But someone says Muslims should stop killing people and you’re ready to write an encyclopedia singing the praises of Islam, and insinuating it’s the fault of the US, Israel and Middle Ages Christians.

    DId someone in a church hurt you or something?

    btw, you left out Wazza. (You, Greg AND Wazza are doing your thing for God 🙂

  243. What about Morocco?

    Surely there’s no Jews there

    Um yes there is.

    Nonetheless, before his death in 1999, King Hassan tried to protect the Jewish population, and at present Morocco has one of the most tolerant environments for Jews in the Arab world. Moroccan Jewish emigres, even those with Israeli citizenship, freely visit friends and relatives in Morocco. Moroccan Jews have held leading positions in the business community and government. The major Jewish organization representing the community is the Conseil des Communautes Israelites in Casablanca. Its functions include external relations, general communal affairs, communal heritage, finance, maintenance of holy places, youth activities, and cultural and religious life.4
    “The Jews no longer reside in the traditional Jewish mellahs, but intermarriage is almost unknown. The community has always been religious and tolerant….The younger generation prefers to continue its higher education abroad and tends not to return to Morocco. Thus the community is in a process of aging.”5

    In early 2004, Marrakesh had a small population of about 260 people, most over the age of 60. Casablanca has the largest community, about 3,000 people. There are synagogues, mikvaot, old-age homes, and kosher restaurants in Casablanca, Fez, Marrakesh, Mogador, Rabat, Tetuan and Tangier. In 1992, most Jewish schools were closed, but Casablanca has experienced a bit of a renewal and now 10 schools serve 800 students there.5a

    “The Jewish community developed a fascinating tradition of rituals and pilgrimages to the tombs of holy sages. There are 13 such famous sites, centuries old, well kept by Muslims. Every year on special dates, crowds of Moroccan Jews from around the world, including Israel, throng to these graves. A unique Moroccan festival, the Mimunah, is celebrated in Morocco and in Israel.”6

    Morocco is perhaps Israel’s closest friend in the Arab world. King Hassan often tried to be a behind-the-scenes catalyst in the Arab-Israeli peace process. In July 1986, he hosted Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres in an effort to stimulate progress. Two months later, Hassan met with a delegation of Jews of Moroccan origin, including an Israeli Knesset member. In 1993, after signing the agreement with the PLO, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin paid a formal visit to Morocco.

    In May 1999, King Hassan organized the first meeting of the World Union of Moroccan Jews, in Marrakech.

    In April and May 2000, the Moroccan government sponsored a series of events and lectures promoting respect among religions.7 Andre Azoulay, royal counselor and a leading Jewish citizen, spoke about the need for interfaith respect and dialogue. In October 2000, two Moroccan youths tried to vandalize a Tangiers synagogue. King Mohamed VI publicly declared in a televised speech on November 6, 2000, that the government would not tolerate mistreatment of Morocco’s Jews. The youths were subsequently sentenced to one year in prison.8

    On May 16, 2003, a series of suicide bombers attacked four Jewish targets in Casablanca, and a fifth attack was made against the Spanish consulate. No Jews were hurt in the attack because it occurred on Shabbat when the buildings were empty of Jews. Twenty-nine Muslims were killed. Though the bombings affected the Jewish sense of security, they were viewed by most Moroccans as assaults on the country’s social and political order, and a test of the young king’s power, rather than an act of anti-Semitism. King Mohammed VI visited the site of one of the attacks the day it occurred and urged the Jewish community to rebuild. The government subsequently organized a large rally in the streets of Casablanca to demonstrate support for the Jewish community and the king reasserted his family’s traditional protection for the country’s Jews.9

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/morocjews.html

  244. I think you deserve a prize for the most number of posts on a topic though Bones.

    Maybe we can give you a free trip to Mecca?
    Medina?
    Afghanistan? Maybe you can start a church in Iran or Saudi Arabia?

    Just tryin to lighten the conversation.

  245. I offered to pay for his airfares to Iran Q, on the proviso that he stand in Azidi Square in Tehran holding a sign that says “Jesus Christ is Lord and there is no other way to heaven except by Him”. I don’t expect he’ll take up the offer.

  246. So Bones, are you saying that as long as there is a Jew living in a Muslim country, that it is wrong of me to want Muslim leaders to work harder at stopping their people from violence. And wanting Muslim extremists to stop killing?

    For that I’m a Nazi, and not a Christian?

    You need to get out and get some fresh air man. Maybe there’s an anti-Fundamentalist Christian rally you can attend.

    Or you could go do the round of the mosques and offer yourself as a sacrifice to atone for stuff in the Middle Ages.

  247. Keep up Q,

    I’m destroying Roundhouse’s assertion that all Muslims ant Jews wiped out.

    It’s not looking good.

  248. @Bones

    We see through your cunning ruse.

    No, you can’t. That’s my whole point. You’re sucked in by the rhetoric and the carefully placed “news” items. Wishful thinking won’t save you when you’re knee deep in your family’s blood I’m afraid Bones.

  249. I don’t expect he’ll take up the offer.

    Only if you hold my hand. And I want a shirt that says ‘I’m with stupid.’

  250. @Roundhouse – reminds me of a Bruce Willis movie.

    Sometimes I think Bones thinks Hillsong and C3 are more dangerous than Islam.

    …………waiting …

  251. I’m destroying Roundhouse’s assertion that all Muslims ant Jews wiped out.

    Lol! All you’re destroying is the mouthfuls of corn chips that shoot out my mouth when I laugh at your comments! Keep em coming Bones!

  252. @Q

    Sometimes I think Bones thinks Hillsong and C3 are more dangerous than Islam.

    The way he talks about Christians you’d think they were single handedly responsible for every genocide, pogrom and massacre the world has ever seen!

  253. Well your wallet isn’t…as safe.

    Thousands brutally murdered every week because of a savage, brutal, hate-filled cult, and Bones is more concerned about a church needing to buy toilet paper

  254. Bones has copying and pasting mania. The problem with Bones is that in order to prove a point he will find an article somewhere trying to prove that Muslims are nice to Jews or christians somewhere.

    But, if he had any idea about research and/or history, he’d realize that you just can’t find an article and then say HA Gotcha”

    It would be laughable it wasn’t dangerous.

    Case in point, Bones pasted an article about Muslim protection of Jews in Iran, and proudly comes up with his trump card that Jews are still alive!!!
    Then he smirks for a while, and goes hunting for the next country to prove how nice Muslims are – without having any in depth knowledge of the topic.

    And a topic like religious freedom in Iran, or the situation of Jews living in Iran is so complicated that it deserves it’s own thread instead of just being point 652 of the Glories of Islam according to Bones.

    For a start, does Bones realize that in 1948 there were 100,000 Jews in Iran? That by the time of the revolution there were 80,000. That now there are only 20,000, and some say that very recently maybe 10,000. Most of the people with money got out of there.

    Bones probably thinks that because there is a Jewish member of parliament that jews have freedom and are flourishing. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Jews have one Seat ^ they can’t have anymore!!!

    Does Bones think it fair that Jews cannot even publicly support Israel. Does Bones have any idea of how careful Jews have to be in Iran. No he doesn’t ! He has no idea, because he just posted the first article he could find before going on a mad search for other places.

    Does Bones think that people are free to marry who they want in Iran?? No, Bones wouldn’t have a clue, because he’s already talking about Indonesia. Gees, Bones, I hope you never become a teacher! no wait……

    It’s simplistic, buffoonery. But, let there be a glowing account somewhere and Bones praises Allah and then spits at roundhouse!

    Does bones know what happens if Muslims convert?
    Does Bones know about inheritance laws when people of other religions convert to Islam?

    Do you know bones???????? No you don’T because you are so full of blind hate and rage that you don’t take the time to learn.

    Spouting a date doesn’t make a person a historian.

    Look up religious freedom in Iran. Remember, that Jews have been in Iran for thousands of years – it’s in the BIble (though I’m not sure if Bones accepts the historicity)

    The history of Jews in Iran being an example of the mercy of Islam??? Are you completely nuts?

    Talk to people who have lived in Iran and left BOnes.

    Yes, they have Jewish schools. Who runs them? What language?
    Could a teacher in private or in public state celebrate the birth of the nation of israel? No, of course not.

    Do you think a non=muslim man can easily marry a muslim woman?
    What happens when a muslim man marries non-muslim woman.

    What happens when a Christian converts to Islam in terms of inheritance laws. This is long so I’ll do a BOnesian copy and paste.
    next.

    No Bones, the Iranian regime is trying to look good by showing the world that Jews are “alive” and have freedom. Remember that those Jews have been there for thousands of years – what’s left of them

    Okay, coming up next, how the wonderful Iranian govt responds to conversions to Christianity which PRAISE GOD are happening.

  255. “Hundreds of Christians in Iran have been arrested and imprisoned since the beginning of this year.

    The crackdown has led to 285 believers in 35 cities being arrested in Iran in the past six months, according to Elam Ministries, an organization that serves Christians in that country.

    Many of those Christians have spent weeks and even months in prison, often serving long stretches in solitary confinement. They also have endured interrogations and psychological abuse.

    Iranian Pastor Hormoz Shariat is with International Antioch Ministries. He hosts a satellite television show that is broadcast into Iran.

    “Most often the Revolutionary Guards arrest and don’t even tell their family. They can’t have a lawyer, not even a formal charge. Sometimes they get killed without even a formal charge,” he explained.

    When he became president in 2005, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad pledged to halt the spread of Christianity in Iran and launched a crackdown at that time.

    But David Yeghnazar, the U.S. director of Elam Ministries, says the government’s efforts are now intensifying.

    “In particular in this last year, this persecution has gained momentum and I really think that is because the church is growing with increasing momentum,” he explained.

    Yeghnazar and Shariat say the government, for the first time, has admitted that Iranians are leaving the Islamic faith and becoming Christians.”

    Lovely stuff isn’t it!

  256. So tell me Q, why is there still a fair population of Jews in Iran?

    Australia doesn’t even have a specific Muslim Government representative. Yet Iran has a specific Jewish one.

    Is it to make them look tolerant?

  257. I other words guys, don’t be intimidated by a copy and paste freak. It would take days to wade through the stuff that Bones posts. That’s the nature of the world. You can’t just paste an article and think you understand a country.

    But Bones can! Because if it makes Christianity or the US or Israel look bad, or Islam look good, there’s no need for further research.

    Bones, I once thought you were reasonably intelligent.

    Go and live in Iran Bones. Or any other lovely Muslim country you can think of.

    ARe you possessed or something? Hundred of Indonesians churches burned, girls raped while Muslims praise Allah, but Bones doesn’t want to hear about that.

    Because why? Because someone is building a 92 foot statue of Jesus. Wow….. So, maybe it was really HIllsong or the CIA or Mossad that burned the churches. Yep, that’s it.

    Bones reminds me of the people who were just so convinced that Osama and Islam were being framed when the towers went down.

    Those guys were also master copy and pasters. But if you had the time to go through their arguments they all came crashing down.

    Bones, all you have proved is that you are extremely gullible when it comes to the internet,

    But you have one talent. You should have stamina when it comes to copying and pasting.

    I think I’ll call you CP from now on.

    Either that of Mohammed.

    I’m out of there for a while. No doubt when I come back there’ll be another 100 posts. Maybe one about Bin Laden giving a boy a hot cross bun.

    Come back to reality CP!!!!

  258. But Muslims want the Jews wiped off the map.

    Why are there then Jews in Iran, Turkey, Morocco?

    Why would Indonesia allow a large manorah to be built?

    Why?

    Why?

  259. The Iranian President has been completely fooling everyone on Israel, hasn’t he! But I thought Muslims told the truth! Clever ploy to pretend to the world that he hates Jews but actually, in his heart of hearts, supports them.

    Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Monday Israel has no roots in the Middle East and would be “eliminated,” ignoring a U.N. warning to avoid incendiary rhetoric ahead of the annual General Assembly session.

    Ahmadinejad also said he did not take seriously the threat that Israel could launch a military strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities, denied sending arms to Syria, and alluded to Iran’s threats to the life of British author Salman Rushdie.

    The United States quickly dismissed the Iranian president’s comments as “disgusting, offensive and outrageous.”

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/24/us-un-assembly-ahmadinejad-idUSBRE88N0HF20120924

  260. Yes, Bones, why. Because there are thousands of Iranians who don’t agree with the militant leadership and would like to see him gone.

    Indonesia, by the way, is at least 20% Christian, which is why there is other symbolism to Islam.

    Your argument has been completely imaginary for some time now, stimulated by Roundhouse admittedly, who should learn to calm down when a raging bull is in the tea shop, which would prevent further damage to his and your credibility.

    But, as has been said by others, the way you have made out that people are ultra right wing haters who want to eliminate entire races and religions has been despicable.

    I’m asking you, again, to remove your comments that I am in any way desirous of the elimination of any race, religion or community. I would like you to back away from your incendiary and defamatory claims.

  261. “So tell me Q, why is there still a fair population of Jews in Iran?

    Jews have lived in Iran for 3000 years. Most of them loved Iran. The ones who are still live there don’t want to leave.

    Fair population? From 100.000 to 80,000 to 20,000. If the population of Greek Australians was reduced to a quarter after a regime change, I’d say there’d be a reason for it.
    There are still Chinese in Vietnam, but a lot of the people with money left. The latest official census gave less than 10,000.

    Jews can not become career officers in the military, Even though they may have have ancestors there for 1000 years. Is that not significant? Is that not backward? Discriminatory?
    The Jews who live there probably love Iran. Think about it – some Aussies wouldn’t want to leave Australia after two generations, let alone 100. You don’t think Jews there are nervous? But many say they will stay no matter what happens.

    “Australia doesn’t even have a specific Muslim Government representative. Yet Iran has a specific Jewish one.”
    From what i understand jews have one, Christians have one, Minority religions have one. If I’m wrong about there being a law proscribing one politician representing each minority religion, I’ll stand corrected, but from all I know each religion has one and ONLY one. That’s hardly religious freedom. BUt very Islamic if you ask me the nazi bigot.

    “Is it to make them look tolerant?”

    yes, I think it is. Iran can proudly show the world that there are Jews living and working and breathing in Iran, and tell them world how tolerant they are. And gullible Islamophiles believe it, without looking further.

    But, ask yourself whether you’d like to be Jewish living in Iran. ANd ask all the Iranian Jews who have left, and are now living in democracies where they can marry whoever they like, take any job they want, say what they like about Israel, or any other issue.

    At least can we agree on one thing. It’s a lot easier being a Muslim in Australia, the US, England or Canada than it is to be a Christian/Jew in a Muslim country. Will you at LEAST admit that?

    btw, I will admit that Jews are treated better than people of the bahai faith in Iran. Ask the Bahai people if they like living in the US than in Iran.

    Iran….lovely place isn’t it?

    Tell you what, you and Greg should set up the signposts office in tehran. Just…be careful with the gay rights stuff, and don’t go evangelizing.

    But it’s amazing. In Iran, they’ve flogged people for homosexual acts – but Bones raves about their treatment of Jews (without knowing anything about the situation).

    i’ve never flogged or punched a gay – just say that I don’t think they should get married, and I’m accused of hating gays and being a nazi.

    that’s what Steve and Roundhouse object to. We are not Nazis and we are not flogging or killing anyone.

    But the people who ARE flogging and killing are praised on this website.

    Is this like the anti-matter world on Lost in Space or something?
    Everything here seems to be in reverse.

    I feel like sprinkling holy water on my mac when I come here these days. I would if I wasn’t out of the warranty period.

    🙂

    Okay, I’ll lighten up now. And I’ll forgive people here another 241 times today 🙂

  262. btw, regardless of what i just said above in my typing frenzy…..

    Bones, you’re definitely a smart guy and I admire your knowledge of history. And I like your passion. You’ve made some good points.

    If I went too far I’m sorry. I feel free to do it because you’re tough and i do think your smart. No doubt smarter than I am.

    Shalom

  263. Bones,
    I don’t think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wants to kill every Jew on the face of the earth. Muslims haven’t tried to exterminate every Jew or Christian. Muslims since Mohammed have wanted to control the countries the live in. They will let Jews live and as they flourished the most during the “golden age” of Islam when they benefited from the contribution of Jews scholars.

    So, they will often let Jews and Christians be in relative peace if they pay the tax, don’t evangelize etc. They don’t kill them all. But they don’t have the same freedom as Muslims.

    But, here’s the thing. many of them including Mahmoud Ahmadinejad totally reject the existence of Israel.. They’ll be nice to Jews and anyone who agrees with them.

    But, Muslims riot all over the world because of Israel? Why?
    Do Christians riot all over the world because of Bethlehem?
    You mentioned the IRA. DId Catholics in Sydney attack British embassies and blow things up because an IRA guy was shot? Or because someone told too many Pope jokes?

    If Catholics were rioting and blowing things up because of Northen Ireland, I’d be wary of Catholics too.

    When Palestinians blew up a wedding reception in Israel, I didn’t see Jews, or Steve or Roundhouse rioting outside embassies or smashing things.

    Thats …pretty much all I’m saying. I don’t want Sharia law in Australia, I don’t want Muslims having there own Sharia law on Australian soil , and I don’t want Muslims causing destruction to people or property in Australia because of a youtube video, a Koran being burned, or because of something that happens in Israel.

    But yeah, I think Muslim extremists are scary people. Christian extremists are too, but it’s a numbers game. I’ve got more chance of my plane going down because of a Muslim extremist than I do of some weird Presbyterian offshoot.

    And that’s why I’m politically incorrect enough to think that it’s not weird if people check the young middle eastern guy more than the Dame Edna look alike.

  264. But Roundhouse says “and every Muslim’s desire is to see every Jews head on a pike.”

    There’s over 20 000 heads in Iran for starters.

    Why haven’t they cut them off?

  265. “ut why are there 20 000+ Jews living in Iran, when Muslims want Jews wiped off the map?”

    FOr the same reason Mohammed didn’t slay every Jew. He went and conquered – he didn’t exterminate. BUt you had to submit to his rule.
    Convert, or if not abide by Islamic rule. Usually pay a tax, give up the right to marry Muslims, don’t convert – and Muslims weren’t allowed to convert.

    So, if I don’t insult Allah or the Mohammed, don’t preach to Muslims and convert them to christianity, and don’t tell them I think Israel has the right to exist, then they’ll probably leave me alone.

    I never said that Muslims want to kill every Jew on earth.

    As long as the Jews in Iran don’t argue about Israel, don’t convert Muslims, don’t marry Muslims, they will probably be okay.

    But who knows, when the next revolution will come and that might change things.

    I wouldn’t want to live in a country which had a high probability of a Muslim group taking control of government.

  266. But Roundhouse says “and every Muslim’s desire is to see every Jews head on a pike.”

    There’s over 20 000 heads in Iran for starters.

    Why haven’t they cut them off?

  267. “But Roundhouse says “and every Muslim’s desire is to see every Jews head on a pike.”

    I’m not Roundhouse. I’m Q. I don’t agree with that statement.
    But I don’t know everything. Maybe it’s hyperbole?

    Maybe you don’t really think I’m a nazi. I don’t know.

    I belong do a different denomination to Roundhouse and Steve.
    🙂

  268. Maybe it seems like I’m on the same team as Roundhouse. It’s just that our jerseys look similar and we sometimes run in the same direction.

    Okay will this make you happy?

    @Roundhouse, I don’t think it’s true that EVERY Muslim wants to kill EVERY Jew. That’s a big statement to make. Do you think that’s true only now, or has always been that way since the beginning and why?

    Man….i am such an objective, bipartisan, reasonable adult… Amaze even myself sometimes ! 🙂

  269. That’s nice Q but

    Roundhouse says “and every Muslim’s desire is to see every Jews head on a pike.”

    There’s over 20 000 heads in Iran for starters.

    Why haven’t they cut them off?

  270. um, you’ll have to ask him. The lad is of age – ask him.

    I’m a lone ranger here. I’m the ultimate free-spirit answer only to God Protestant!

  271. I dunno, Q, but it might be a good idea to let Bones and Roundhouse fight it out to see who will be the longest surviving troll on this thread.

    You know what they say about trolls, don’t you? Don’t feed them.

  272. @Steve

    see who will be the longest surviving troll on this thread.

    I have been a bit trollish, haven’t I? But there is a reason for that. I have been deliberately oversimplifying or over generalising many of my statements because it’s what Bones and Greg do every post they ever debate. They take the lowest common denominator, or one minute point, and pound on that one thing ad infinitum, not taking into account the nuances, subtleties and shade of grey that exist in almost every situation we face. It’s all or nothing with people like them. And so I thought I would try a little bit of that to see how they like a taste of their own medicine. And didn’t it work a treat?! They hate it! Bones spent all of Sunday regurgitating the same argument – those three annoying ex-terrorists! Then yesterday he spent all day maniacally googling anything he could find where Muslims were seen to be helpful and not slaughtering the innocent, like the news services keep unfairly labelling them. And today he seems to have become strangely fixated on how wonderful all of these Muslim countries are for letting Christians and Jews live within their borders. Oh, and for the last hour he’s been repeating the same mantra about Jews heads on pikes. All of it sadly similar to the psychiatric condition known as obsessive/compulsive disorder.

    Thanks for the fun few days Bones. You’ve played right into my hands! And I am actually really quite chuffed that I was able to come in here and throw some crap back in your face, because that’s the only reason sites like this exist – to throw crap at other people you don’t agree with so that you can make your own boring little lives seem oh so superior to everyone elses.

    Steve, Q, you guys are awesome. I am sorry I dragged you into my little game too. But you both handled yourselves so well, and your arguments were well reasoned and made me think a lot about my own views of Islam. But the reality is, Islam is a looming danger. Everything I wrote about what the Koran says about Taqiyya, al-wahn and Nasikh (progressive revelation) are true. I encourage you guys to research these Islamic traits. It will really open your eyes to the Islamic mindset, and what could happen very soon. Anyway, I’m bored with this subject now. I think I might go and spend some time in the garden.

  273. Canada: 10000 muslims laugh at a rabbi

    Stand-up comic Rabbi Bob Alper will headline at Ontario’s award-winning festival, Muslimfest 2009, in Mississauga, August 2nd.
    Alper, who performs internationally with Muslim comedians in The Laugh in Peace Tour, has been doing stand-up for 23 years, following a successful career serving synagogues in Buffalo and Philadelphia.
    “I was thrilled to receive the invitation to appear at Muslimfest,” says Alper. “During the past seven years I’ve seen repeatedly how shared laughter diffuses suspicion and builds bridges between formerly unconnected communities. This is a concept that the organizers of Muslimfest 2009 also value.”

    http://3faiths.org/2009/07/24/canada-10000-muslims-laugh-at-a-rabbi/

  274. Gay Pastor Meets Gay Imam in Cape Town South Africa

    Rowland Jide Macaulay Pastor of House Of Rainbow Fellowship meets Imam Muhsin Hendrick the founder of Inner Circle, a leading gay Islamic Religious leader, they both have many things in common, they are both religious leaders of the two most popular religions, and they are openly gay and also Africans. The meeting took place at the Inner Circle Annual International Retreat 2009 which took place in Cape Town South Africa 24th to 27th April

  275. Maybe those two guys can get married and Bones can conduct the ceremony! 🙂
    And Wazza and Greg can be the Bridesmaids 🙂

  276. Bones’ and Greg’s perfect combination – a gay and a Muslim. I can picture Bones trembling with excitement when he found this video on youtube. Can you imagine if the pastor was a Catholic? Bones would have exploded in ecstasy!

  277. “Bones would have exploded in ecstasy” (carried a backpack rather than bouquet?) – sounds pretty “radical” to me but certainly in keeping with the occasion…

  278. Actually if they got married and planted a church in Australia, Bones will have his dream church. Gay Muslim as Senior Minister, the gay Christian as First Gentleman. No tithes but all offerings will go to Hamas except for special love offerings to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad..
    Bones can be MC, “Brothers and Sisters – and those of you who aren’t sure which one you are yet, or who are awaiting surgery ….after todays sermon on “The evils of the US, the BIble, and Hillsong”, we will be breaking up into groups for discussion and youtube videos.
    Topics will include “How to refute the Bible”, “How to witness to evangelicals”. I will have a special “argument clinic” and Brother Greg will do a session on “Spiritual release through swearing and cussing”. Youth are especially welcome as they can learn new words to use when I take them out for Friday night witnessing when we take on the street preachers and the little old nazi ladies holding out against gay marriage.

    May Alla oops, , I mean God, I mean whatever you want me to mean.. bless you. And I DONT mean financially!!

    Yeah, finally a church where he could take his friends without embarrassment. 🙂 Yes. Revival!

  279. @Bones

    If jesus was still around he’d be telling the story of the good gay muslim.

    He sure would. And it would go something like this – “You foolish one, tonight your soul is required of you. He who lays with another man and goes after strange flesh in gross immorality, is exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.” (taken from Luke 12:16-21 and Jude 1:7)

  280. Of course what the radical Muslims are afraid of is f there is no prevention of infidels mocking their prophet the world’s cartoonists and filmmakers will run riot with all the comedic possibilities at hand.

    By creating, instilling and maintaining their threats and fear, they at least keep the manifest opportunities for humour and mockery at bay.

    It is the most comedic and deadly irony of all.

  281. If you think thats funny, you guys would be a scream at the connect group Bible study. I’d like to have a weak tea with you and listen to your theories of revival and how the one- world government is driving the church underground.

  282. Sorry to spoil your joke, but I don’t have any ‘theories of revival and how the one- world government is driving the church underground’.

    I’d be interested to know if Hilary Clinton or or Barak Obama have ever used the Lord’s name in vain whilst working out how to make a statement appeasing the defenders of the prophet!

    Now there’s a possibility for a great cartoon!

  283. Of course the other great joke is how the militants have trained the ‘moderate’ Christians to defend their cause by working so hard to dampen down and obscure the dreadful reality of the extremists by appealing to Islamic restraint, which they really hope exists.

    I’d have a cartoon of apologists for extremism jumping through hoops at the sound of cracking whips to demonstrate how controlled the argument against militancy can be!

  284. What can we learn from Muslims?

    How to have a reign of terror, mayhem and fear by militants and still access funding, media access, political apologetics and appeasement for moderates!

    It’s an amazingly successful combination.

    I don’t think Jesus would approve though.

  285. Lets change a few words in your diatribe, and see if it seems racist :

    Of course the other great joke is how the Jews have trained the ‘moderate’ Christians to defend their cause by working so hard to dampen down and obscure the dreadful reality of the Jews by appealing to Jewish restraint, which they really hope exists.

    I’d have a cartoon of apologists for the Jews jumping through hoops at the sound of cracking whips to demonstrate how controlled the argument against Zionism can be!

    What can we learn from Jews?

    How to have a reign of terror, mayhem and fear by the secret Jewish leadership and still access funding, media access, political apologetics and appeasement for moderates!

    It’s an amazingly successful combination.

    I don’t think Jesus would approve though.

  286. So once again, after all the continual on and on morally relative arguments of Bones, you want to persist with finding some equivalence which says… what?

    Nothing, really, except that you reveal yourself as one of the persons leaping through the hoops at the crack of the whip to defend the extremism we see before our eyes every single week for the last fifteen years of Islamists destroying people, some of them their own, but being afraid to say anything about it in case you stir them up to attack your own doorstep, your own family, your own community because you were strong enough to say that killing people in the name of Islam is wrong.

    No. You have to accuse the Jews of doing the same thing.

    Well, they might be overbearing in their defence of their own homeland against, who was it now? Oh, yes, Muslim extremists, and make the odd flurry into espionage and assassination of extremist political leaders and masterminds, but I don’t see them rioting on the streets of Paris, London, Sydney, Karachi, Jakarta, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Oslo, Kaduna, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum over a stupid, low budget, crappy 14 minute movie about Moses, or a cartoon about Abraham!

    I see Jewish people having to put up with the Al Haksa Mosque overlooking their beloved Temple walls. I see them putting up with their coffee shops being the subjects of left wing and Islamic demonstrations in Sydney.

    I don’t think your equivalence quite works, wazza.

    But why do you have to sink to the depths of moral relativism? is that the only argument against terror you have?

    Now I expect a series of moral equivalence YouTube vids and articles to follow from the hoop leapers! Quick, boys, the whip is about to crack again!

    Please tell me you’re only joking!

  287. By the way, Jewish people tend to be the lenders and funders, not the borrowers or welfare recipients.

    I thought that was one of the conspiratorial issues!

    Poor wazza. Equivalences that don’t actually work very well in reality.

  288. The only equivalence is that it is equally racist if you use that language about Muslims as it is if you use it about Jews or any other group.

    You are ranting and raving and spewing out ill-informed generalisations, fear, uncertainty and doubt.

  289. But the subject is what we can learn from Muslims, which has been hijacked by moral equivalence arguments.

    I am not ranting, raving or spewing. There has been plenty of that already on this thread. I am pointing out flaws in the arguments of moral relativism.

    You have merely reverted to Bone’s argument which has surely been exhausted.

    I am reminding you of this, but you want to continue with your anti-Semitic tendencies because your political views lean towards the left and you will never oppose the Islamists who kill, maim and murder in the name of Allah as long as you can turn the argument around to your own pet peeves.

  290. Judaism are religions, not races, fool.

    Must remember that next time someone goes on about the Holocaust and antisemitism. It wasn’t racial at all. It was religious.

    So is it Ok to discriminate on the basis of religion?

  291. @Bones

    Must remember that next time someone goes on about the Holocaust and antisemitism. It wasn’t racial at all. It was religious.

    Yes, you must. Otherwise you make yourself look like an ignorant fool, and we wouldn’t want that, would we?

    So is it Ok to discriminate on the basis of religion?

    Happens to us Christians every day.

  292. Happens to us Christians every day.

    Yes I’ve noticed by ‘we’ Christians you were referring earlier on to yourself and irvinjp, who announced that he wasn’t a Christian.

    I thought that was quite apt and said it all really.

  293. @Bones

    Yes I’ve noticed by ‘we’ Christians you were referring earlier on to yourself and irvinjp

    Nope. I was referring to everyone on here who is actually a real Christian. Obviously that excludes you!

  294. Again, this equivalence doesn’t really work.

    We know that most Jews would generally be associated with Israel or Judah in some way.

    But which race would Islam point to? Unless you associated all Muslims with Mecca, in which case they would be racially Arabic, although Iranians would not be considered Arabs, and nor would Indonesians.

    Neither Christianity or Islam would point to any particular race. Nor would Buddhism these days, or Hinduism, although most people would associate it with India in some way.

    But I knew what you meant, wazza, so I’m not going to pick hairs over it.

  295. I think we should ban moral equivalence arguments on threads until we have at least established a decent argument. It should have a slightly less derogatory connotation on a thread to Godwin’s law, which Bones launched into almost instantly on the other Islamic thread.

    Godwin’s law usually heralds the dregs of an argument. Moral equivalence arguments should be akin to a pre-dreg cuppa, when there is one sip left, a few floating tea leafs, and it is slightly tepid.

  296. “If jesus was still around he’d be telling the story of the good gay muslim.”

    Absurd statement. Where to start with that?

    I think I’ll leave it though. Bones probably think that if Jesus were still around that he’d be baptized by a good gay Muslim, that he’d be a member of Hamas, and he’d conduct the marriage of Mary and Martha. I wouldn’t be surprised what he thinks Jesus would be doing now.

  297. I understand Bone’s point about Jesus, though. Any person who displays godliness, even if they are of another ethnic or religious background, is being Christlike.

    If you juxtapose the Samaritan for a good Muslim you could, perhaps come up with a moral tale of godly behaviour which would be contrasted with a religious person who claims Biblical standards but rejects a scriptural lifestyle.

    I am certain here are Muslims, gays, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus and even Roman Catholic priests who would fit the bill.

    The thing is whether their good works would qualify them for eternal life, or whether their example of mercy, loving kindness and Christlike behaviour, or even fulfilling the perfect law of Liberty would be accepted if they never received Christ as Lord.

    There would have to be some, wouldn’t there.

    But how does this measure up against the actions of the militants? Would Christ use a terrorist as an example? Unless one repented and repaid what he could to a community he terrorised.

    The fact is that we all, at one time or other, were as bad or worse than those who oppose Christianity, and all deserved condemnation.

    That Christ chose grace over condemnation gives hope to every man.

    I for one would not rule out the conversion of even the most radical of antichrist activists.

    Wasn’t Paul counted amongst their numbers?

  298. @Steve

    “The thing is whether their good works would qualify them for eternal life, or whether their example of mercy, loving kindness and Christlike behaviour, or even fulfilling the perfect law of Liberty would be accepted if they never received Christ as Lord.”

    No. The only good work that gains us eternal life is accepting Jesus as Lord. It is a clear biblical truth. They can be as “Godly” as they like, but it means nothing if they reject Jesus.

    “I for one would not rule out the conversion of even the most radical of antichrist activists.

    Wasn’t Paul counted amongst their numbers?”

    Absolutely. Anyone can come into a saving relationship with Jesus, no matter what they have done or who they are. Osama bin Laden could, so could Brevik, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot.

  299. “But how does this measure up against the actions of the militants? Would Christ use a terrorist as an example? Unless one repented and repaid what he could to a community he terrorised.”

    Why did Jesus choose a Samaritan? He could have chosen a devout Jew, scribe, pharisee, sadducee or zealot even.. Maybe even a devout gentile.

    But a Samaritan?

    The hatred between Jews and Samaritans was based on religion, race and politics.

    Religion – the Samaritans didn’t recognise the Temple in Jerusalem and worshipped in their own temple hence Jesus says to the Samaritan woman”. The Samaritans believed Judaism was an altered and amended religion brought back by those returning from exile.

    They only accepted the first 5 books of the Pentateuch and Moses was the only prophet of God.

    Race, Politics and Idolatry

    Omri, the seventh king of Israel, who came to power in 885 B.C. purchased a hill upon which he built a city and called it Samaria. The entire region became know as Samaria as well. Samaria – and the kings who ruled from there – became known for its blatant idolatry. The most memorable of the idolatrous kings is probably Ahab, whose Sidonian wife Jezebel killed the prophets of the Lord while openly providing for hundreds of prophets of the false gods Baal and Asherah.

    In 722 B.C., after a siege of three years, Shalmaneser the king of Assyria conquered Samaria and deported the Israelite elite to Assyria. Shalmaneser’s successor, Sargon, “brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva, Hamath and Sepharvaim and settled them in the towns of Samaria to replace the Israelites.” (2 Kings 17:24) Each group newly settled in the region brought with them their own gods. At one point, because years of war had left the land unmanaged and the wildlife uncontrolled, the colonists reported to the king that “the god of the country” had “sent lions among them, which were killing them off” because the people did not know what the god of the land required. (2 Kings 17:26) The king, therefore, sent back a priest from exile to teach the people how to worship the god of the land. The end result of all this was mingled race – for the remaining Israelites intermarried with the colonists – purporting belief in the God of Israel and the laws of Torah while worshiping the gods of the foreign settlers with whom they had blended. Neither the race nor the religion was pure.

    In 538 B.C., seventy years after the Southern Kingdom, Judah, had been led into Babylon in exile, the Persian king Cyrus ordered the return of the exiles to Jerusalem where they would restore the land and rebuild the city and its temple. As recorded in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah, their enemies proposed to help with the rebuilding of the temple since they – according to their claim – worshipped the same God. (See Ezra 4:1-5) When Zerubbabel, the leader of the returned exiles, refused their help, they became incensed. Nehemiah informs further that one man, Sanballat, became angry and ridiculed the Jews “in the presence of his associates and the army of Samaria.” (Nehemiah 4:2) This same Samaritan leader is seen a few verses later to be allied with the Arabs and the Ammonites. Unable to dominate the Jewish enterprise, the Samaritans built a temple of their own on Mount Gerizim in Samaria at which were offered sacrifices similar to those offered at the temple in Jerusalem. It has been proposed that this same Sanballat was responsible for its construction.

    But the road leading to the hostility found between Jews and Samaritans five centuries later in the New Testament does not end there. Sometime about 332 B.C., when the Samaritans saw Alexander the Great’s disposition as favorable toward the Jews in Jerusalem, they claimed themselves to be of Hebrew descent.[1] However, shortly thereafter, the Samaritans assassinated the governor of Coelesyria who had been appointed by Alexander.[2] Alexander in turn conquered the city of Samaria and settled Macedonians there who would further intermarry with the already mixed race and accomplish the Hellenization of the people.

    Upon Alexander’s death when his empire was divided among among his generals, Jewish-type worship continued at temple on Mount Gerizim. Josephus reports that anyone in Jerusalem who was accused of breaking with kosher laws or breaking the Sabbath or any similar crime against the religion would flee to Samaria where he could continue his traditional form of worship in the conterfeit temple.[3]

    During the next century, while subject to the Ptolemies of Egypt, the Jews were looked upon with favor by the governing authorities. As before with Alexander, the Samaritans claimed kinship with the Jews. However, when power over the region passed to the Seleucids of Syria, and more specifically to Antiochus IV (195 B.C.) who determined to eradictate Judaism, the Samaritans sent a letter to the king denying any kinship with the Jews and presented evidence that they were in fact Sidonians. In the letter, they purported that the temple on Mount Gerizim had been built by their forefathers who had followed certain Jewish superstitions in an effort to avert plagues that had come upon them. Now, they said, since the king was bringing just treatment upon “these wicked Jews,”[4] they wanted to dedicate their temple to Zeus.[5] Thus, Samaria entered into full league with the archenemy of the Jews.

    About 108 B.C., after the wars during which the Jews procured their independence from Syria, John Hyrcanus, the Hasmonean who came to power at the death of his father Simon, one of the five brothers involved in the Maccabean revolt, besieged the city of Samaria for over a year. Unable to withstand the siege, Samaria eventually surrendered, at which time Hyrcanus utterly destroyed the city and its temple to the extent that no marks of a city having ever existed in that location remained.[6]

    After the Roman general Pompey defeated the Seleucid monarchy in 64 B.C., he annexed the region of Samaria to Syria. Shortly thereafter, another Roman general, Gabinius, saw to the rebuilding of the city of Samaria. Finally, Herod the Great renamed the city Sebaste and determined to make it a powerful fortress which “would be a stronghold against the country.”[7]

    By the time Jesus Christ traveled the roads from Jerusalem to Galilee, the most despised people in the Jewish mind were the Samaritans. History gave them every reason to hate this mongrel race who had adhered to a corrupted, syncretized Judaism when convenient but had abandoned it altogether when expedient.

    The Samaritans were quite conscious of the things that divided the two peoples. A Samaritan woman once said to Jesus, “Our fathers worshiped on this mountain (a reference to Mount Gerizim), but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” (John 4:20)

    Jesus’ response cut through the division that had come as the result of almost a thousand years of history: “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the father in spirit and truth, for they are the worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24)

    Jesus turned the woman’s focus from the outward to the inward very much as God turned Samuel’s focus in the anointing of David as the future king of Israel. “The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” (1 Samuel 16:7)

    One can only imagine what must have gone through the minds of the original listeners as Jesus told the parable of the Good Samaritan as recorded in Luke 10. A severely beaten Jewish man is lying half dead in the road. A priest who ministers in the daily worship in the temple, revered by his countrymen as holding a special status with God, sees the man but passes by and does nothing. Likewise, a Levite, a member of the tribe set apart by God for His special service, hastens his pace and ignores the bleeding man. Finally, a Samaritan – an ignorant half-breed with a messed-up theology and a history that allows him no bragging rights – stops and looks down at the man who would not hesitate to spit in his face if he were in good health. The Samaritan’s heart breaks over the condition of this his sworn enemy, so he cleans and bandages the man’s wounds and takes him to a place where he can be nursed back to health.

    Jesus could have chosen anyone to be the character of the good neighbor in his parable. But He didn’t. He chose a Samaritan. He reached to the very bottom of the barrel in the Jewish way of thinking. He chose the most despised to make the point that God is not impressed by what race you were born to or who your parents are, or how perfect your religion is. As the Sovereign of the universe, He is less than impressed by your position or status, secular or religious. And it must be downright humorous to the angels looking down from the splendor of heaven to hear human beings talking about the rich and the famous of this world. God is impressed when He sees His own character demonstrated in the life of one of His creatures.

    No matter who they are.

    “. . . when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son . . .” (Romans 5:10)

  300. Not if they’re already dead they can’t! Unless they have Catholic relatives with stacks of dough to put into the purgatory pot, eh, Bones and Greg!

    Sorry, that was sarcasm. Not something you see very often on this site.

    Oh rats, there I go again!

    Now I’ll have to repent!

  301. Did you write that, Bones? Can’t tell these days.

    I tend to tink that, even though a person performs good works, unless he does in the name of Jesus, his good works are acceptable to God but not enough for salvation.

    Paul makes it plain that we are not saved by good works, but that our good works, if they fulfil the requirement of the law of Moses, point us in he right direction, but to be saved by the law we would have to fulfil all of the law, which, it is plainly made to us, no man can do who has the Adamic nature of sin.

    The only way to the Father is through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation is a free gift. It cannot be earned by good works.

    Good works merely demonstrate our faith.

    Jesus was pointing out the conduct of a godly man, not the way to salvation. Without faith in Jesus Christ our good intentions and works are in vain.

  302. Bones, Most of us know about Samaritans. Most of us know the story too.

    To say that today Jesus would talk about a good gay muslim is a totally unprovable statement. You can suppose, ponder or ask the question, but you can’t make the statement.

    You always like to think that people like Steve are the Pharisee and you are the rad true disciple. I see you as the Pharisee.

    You continually attack the motives, actions and intentions of the saints, while continually talking about how good you are. I don’t think you’re that good.

    Your story was nice and all that …..

    but,

    I do not believe that Jesus would have supported gay marriage. I don’t believe that he would have said “Sure go ahead. Wow, you guys are really ahead of your time” if Peter and John said they wanted to get married, or just have special bed time together in the back of the boat.

    Jesus spoke well of the actions of people from all walks of life – rich or poor, male of female if the action was good.

    Nobody here has said anything different. You sound like you are obsessed or possessed.

    I don’t hate Muslims, I don’t hate gays, I have never been a member either officially or secretly of the nazi party. I don’t want all gays or Muslims killed.

    I’ll go further. The Muslims I have met are 100 times nicer, loving than you are. See? How’s that. You call yourself a Christian. Well, I can now clearly say that no Muslim has directly insulted me to my face or on a blog worse than a “so called Christian”. The Muslim i have talked with face to face showed 100 times more respect and even admiration for my faith than you did.

    So yes, some Muslims are nicer than some Christians.

    And that one particular Muslim I would consider much less a threat to Christians and Christianity than you are.

    He was a “good samaritan” or “roman centurion” type. On here you come across like a Saul.

    So, yeah, there are some Muslims I can get along with better than some Christians.

    But……. I told him of my concerns about Muslim terrorists and that I wish they would stop the violence. He didn’t start raving about the US, the bible, the middle ages or call me a Nazi.

    You sound more like a Muslim terrorist than anyone i’ve met – because all you ever seem to do here is talk about how bad christians are and how good Muslims are.

    I don’t burn Korans, and I don’t advocate it. I don’t like videos that are meant to offend Muslims but I also don’t like videos that are meant to offend Christians or Prince Charles.

    You have a problem.

  303. A muslim invited me to his place. I was happy to go. I didn’t want him killed.

    ANd yet, for some strange reason, I think Muslims should stop blowing things up. Isn’t it amazing that I can talk and joke with one Muslim but also worry about Muslim terrorism. You can’t seem to understand that and think that if I think Muslim terrorist acts in the west, and the persecution and violence against Christians is terrible that I am a Muslim hating nazi.

    How much more do people need to explain.

    Okay, I have no problem with C3. But if c3 people started killing and bombing people, and there were c3 terrorists in over ten countries yelling about Phil Pringle I’d totally understand if people were wary about Pringle and C3. And I’d be wanting to see CLEAR action and efforts by Pringle and others to stop the violence and weed it out.

    Sorry Steve..but it’s getting hard to find examples and analogies that are understandable.

    btw, in your good samaritan story, notice that Jesus also preached to the Samaritans – he didn’t just do nice things for them. He also didn’t give lectures to the disciples each night about how the Samaritans had a wonderful history, their grievances were just, and the disciples need to hold inter-fath prayer meetings with them.

    He gave the story in response to a question. That’s all. He didn’t say, hey James and John, get to know more about what the Samaritans believe, don’t pray in my name when you’re with them, don’t talk about me when you’re with them, just give them more bread and fish.. Actually, just teach them how to fish and make bread. See that’s the real reason why they have a problem – they not good at fishing. And that’s not their fault. they used to be the best fishermen in the world when we jews were still trying to catch fish in our hands.
    btw tomorrow, instead of preaching I’m going to have one of the top Samaritans come here and teach you instead.
    And by the way, he’s gay. And you know that’s cool. Actually, Thomas, I think you’d make a good husband.

    no,no no. Bones, your mind is full of nonsense and confusion.

    Come back to God’s ways. You are off the path someone muttering against the Shepherd and the sheep. We’ll be waiting when you realize the wolves are worse than the sheep who offended you.

  304. Maybe we’ll see Bones in the crowd.

    “The United States of the Arabs will be restored on the hands of that man [Mursi] and his supporters. The capital of the [Muslim] Caliphate will be Jerusalem with God’s will,” Hegazy said, as the crowds cheered, waving the Egyptian flags along with the flags of the Islamist Hamas group, which rules the Gaza Strip.”

  305. How’s this for perspective. You thought WW1 was bad. The armenian genocide. WW2? the Holocaust? The tsunamis?

    no.

    “Last month, Muslim Brotherhood General Guide Mohammed Badie issued a written statement calling Israel’s rebirth the “worst catastrophe ever to befall the peoples of the world”

    …………..

  306. Hey, with all this talk about hate videos, and censorship, this is interesting….

    Earlier this month, Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram reported that Egypt’s government censor had halted production on a private film that allegedly promoted normalization of relations with Israel. The movie’s writer insisted that the film – which follows the lives of an Egyptian, a Palestinian and an Israeli – was not intended to promote Israel, but rather to encourage peace and cooperation, something in which Egypt’s new rulers apparently have no interest.

  307. Hey, here’s a song for Bones iPod, or maybe they can sing it that new church. remember Bones, get the coffee right and Wazza will be there.

    “At the same time, Egypt’s censors approved a wildly popular new song titled “I Love Israel,”
    “May it [Israel] be destroyed. May it be colonized. May it be wiped off the map. May a wall fall on it. May it disappear from the universe. God, please have it banished,” go the lyrics of the new hit”

    So let me get this right…..Obama is giving billions to Egypt, bowing and scraping over a nasty video, and everyone wants to censor it.

    But this song is okay? HIt song in Egypt? This song is popular?
    Probably be a big hit in Bones new church. “lets hold hands folks as we sing….can you feel the hate?…okay one more time”.

  308. “Please ask yourself whether you would like others to judge Christianity based on the picture of it now being presented in the modern Western media. ”

    This was the first line of this article. I was very submissive and asked myself. I concluded that if Christians were bombing places, I’d want to read about it. If Christians in over a dozen countries were rioting and smashing cars about Northern Island or Bethlehem or whatever and threatening to wipe Mecca off the map, i’d assume it would be on the news. Definitely. If Christians gathered in Tokyo and threw bottles at police because a Buddhist in Townsville made a nasty video about Moses or Luther I’d expect it to be on the news. If on one typical day, I could turn on the internet and see Christians yelling, screaming, saying death to saudi Arabia, setting things on fire, read news about Christians threatening to kill for a apostasy, et etc all before I finished my coffee, I could understand people thinking Christianity was scary.

    And if a dozen Baptists crashed a plane into a building on the instructions of some Fundamentalist Christian, who had the same politics and hatred as millions of CHristians in the world, I would understand people judging Christianity on the basis of what they saw on western, eastern and lunar media.

    Yeah, I get it.

    No problem.

    ANd I believe in the golden rule.

  309. The golden rule is cool. I’m all for it.

    If only liberal Christians believed in it and showed love to Evangelicals.

    What a wonderful world it would be…

  310. Of course muslims are nicer than me q. That’s why Akhbae left claiming this was a hate site. Maybe you should talk with some of your muslim friends about what has been brought up here.

  311. I deplore that song Q. Do you also deplore this song which is against Iraq and suggests killing the Iraqi babies by hitting them against rocks?

    .. Reggae beat

    Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
        happy is the one who repays you
        according to what you have done to us.
    Happy is the one who seizes your infants
        and dashes them against the rocks.

  312. Do you really think Akhbae was a real Muslim? I thought he was one of you guys in disguise? And I never said anything bad to him.

    “Do you also deplore this song ”

    It’s not one of my favorites, that’s for sure.
    I do understand the concept of vengeance though.

    Bones, I’ll retire here. I hereby ban myself from this thread.
    Anyway, Greg deserves some kind of prize – he got a great comment count on this one!

  313. “Jesus was pointing out the conduct of a godly man,”

    There is no way Jews would associate the words godly and Samaritan.

    “If only liberal Christians believed in it and showed love to Evangelicals.

    What a wonderful world it would be…”

    If only Evangelicals would stop supporting injustice and stupid wars.

    What a wonderful world it would be.

    Must also be why I’m surrounded by them and married into an Evangelical family.

    Such is the love of Evangelicals that if I mention anything of this in my church I’d be out on my ear.

    “Do you really think Akhbae was a real Muslim? I thought he was one of you guys in disguise?”

    No, that’s something I’d expect from you guys.

    Akhbae has been on before.

  314. Saw a movie, you guys would love last night, Cleanskin. Muslims blowing themselves up and killing westerners as they normally do, with Sean Bean single handedly killing every Muslim he could find.

  315. Q you havent disassociated yourself from that disgusting hateful song about the Iraqis. You say you understand the concept of vengeance.

    So why do you not understand it when it is directed at Israel?

  316. Wazza, those words were directed at a country who had brought misery, injustice and suffering on another country. It’s understandable that the Psalmist would say that. It’s part of being human to wish that on your enemies when suffering grave injustice.

    Muslims on the other hand….

    Hey, wait a minute….

  317. Gee, I’ll explode if I don’t come out of retirement here…….

    I said I’d retire and you’re still asking me questions!

  318. Wazza, I would never sing this song. And no Christians I know sing it now, and yes I would be aghast if Christians were singing it.

    But…there you go. Egyptians are singing it. THe Egyptian govt doesn’t censor it. That’s the difference between Christians and Muslims I guess.

    Don’t you see that?

  319. “There is no way Jews would associate the words godly and Samaritan.

    Yeah, And you didn’t even notice I was talking about Jesus, not Jews. Jesus applauds good behavior by anyone. So do I. I think it’s great when a Muslim does something nice. I’d think it’s even greater if they’d stop singing terrible songs, threatening to wipe Israel of the map, and flying planes into buildings. Could you get them to stop that Bones?

    “If only Evangelicals would stop supporting injustice and stupid wars.”
    If you think the invasion of Afghanistan was unjust and stupid, you might like to recall that it wasn’t only evanglical Christians who supported it. Go look up the numbers.

    “Must also be why I’m surrounded by them and married into an Evangelical family.”

    Lucky you. I hope they can talk some sense into you and I hope you are civil to the and keep the language clean.

    “Such is the love of Evangelicals that if I mention anything of this in my church I’d be out on my ear.”

    So you’re hiding your insanity from everyone? Sneaky!

    “Akhbae has been on before.”
    And is he a real Muslim? If so, was he so impressed with your love and understanding that he is wanting to learn about Christ.

  320. Notice you left out Bush’s war on Iraq for WMDs because God told him.

    What’s the difference between Jewish Zionism and Fundamentalist Islam?

    About 60 years and one’s government policy.

    I’d also like it if the Israelis stopped building settlements on Arab land. And so would the Muslims.

    But God gave the land to the Jews.

  321. So can we use the same logic you’re using about Muslims to hate Judaism.

    Palestinian youth beaten unconscious in attempted J’lem ‘lynch’

    August, 2012

    In the last 24 hours, two near-fatal attacks were committed against Palestinians, one a suspected terror attack, the other a suspected attempted lynch – both allegedly committed by Israeli Jews. Haaretz was the only website (both Hebrew and English) to put the suspected lynch as a top story, while all the other major news sites lead with Iran’s incitement against Israel.

    The first incident, a firebomb thrown on a Palestinian taxi driving north near the settlement of Bat Ayin towards Gush Etzion on Thursday, has yet to be confirmed as a terror attack. All six passengers in the car, members of the Hassan family from Nahalin, were injured – one seriously – reportedly suffering first-degree burns. According to Haaretz, the police said they found another firebomb in the area and were looking into the victims’ claim it was a “Jewish terror attack,” but had not yet ruled out other possibilities.

    In another incident late Thursday night, which has already been called a “lynch” by an eyewitness who was there, three Palestinian youth were attacked and severely beaten up by “dozens” of Jewish youth in Zion Square, in the center of West Jerusalem. The woman who witnessed the whole thing posted her testimony and devastated thoughts on her Facebook page, which was partially translated by Haaretz. Here is the full translation:

    Its late at night, and I can’t sleep. My eyes are full of tears for a good few hours now and my stomach is turning inside out with the question of the loss of humanity, the image of God in mankind, a loss that I am not willing to accept. But today I saw a lynch with my own eyes, in Zion Square, the center of the city of Jerusalem. I arrived with the staff of “Elem” [NGO that works with children at risk] to Zion Square as we normally do at this hour to volunteer, and barely half an hour went by when I heard screams of ‘A Jew is a good soul and Arab is a son of a bitch,’ shouted loudly and dozens (!!) of youths ran and gathered and started to really beat to death three Arab youths who were walking quietly in the Ben Yehuda street. When one of the Palestinian youths fell to the floor, the youths continued to hit him in the head, he lost consciousness, his eyes rolled, his head at an angle started to twitch, and then those who were kicking him fled and the rest gathered in a circle around, with some still shouting with hate in their eyes… When two of our volunteers went into the circle, they tried to perform CPR the mass of youths standing around started to say resentfully that we are resuscitating an Arab, and when they passed near us and saw that the rest of the volunteers were shocked, they asked why we were so in shock, he is an Arab. When we returned to the area after some time had passed, and the site was marked as a murder scene, and police were there with the cousin of the victim who tried to reenact what happened, two youths stood there who did not understand why we wanted to give a bottle of water to the cousin of the victim who was transferred to hospital in critical condition, he is an Arab, and they need don’t need to walk around in the center of the city, and they deserve it, because this way they will finally be afraid. Children aged 15-18 are killing a child their own age with their own hands. Their own hands. Children who’s hearts were unmoved when they beat to death a boy their age who lay writhing on the floor. The picture has not been struck from my eyes and I can still hear the voices and the feeling of helplessness and the question, what happened to us and what is happening to our kids? And the most important – If and how can we still change it?
    After many comments and rumors that the Palestinians had somehow started it or attacked the Jewish youth first, the witness wrote: “I saw with my own eyes that they didn’t attack anyone, and I heard with own ears the teens running just to ‘find an Arab to beat up.’”

    One of the Palestinians is in the intensive care unit at Hadassah Hospital Ein Karem, after being beaten so badly that he lost consciousness and had to be revived by medics after losing a pulse. A picture of a different Palestinian who was injured by Jews several months ago in Jerusalem was uploaded by a right-wing settler site called “the Jewish Voice” and has been circulating as a visual on their Facebook page. An Israeli named Amihay Hillel wrote a comment on the Facebook photo commending the violent act and essentially admitting some kind of passive support, if not active participation, in the attack by stating “How wonderful…I was lucky enough to be present:

    Despite the severity of this incident and that fact that it happened right in the center of West Jerusalem, it has not yet made it to the lead of any of Israeli mainstream media outlets – except Haaretz – and on some websites is completely buried. Ynetnews decided to report on it as a “brawl” that “broke out” between Arabs and Jews, despite the fact that they have absolutely zero evidence the Palestinian victims did anything to provoke or react in any way and even admit “the circumstances surrounding the incident remain unclear.”
    This incident comes just two days after a Palestinian man was violently dragged by off-duty soldiers in Hebron.

    http://wwww.972mag.com/palestinian-youth-beaten-unconscious-in-suspected-lynch-in-jerusalem/53132/

  322. I am not Bush. Are you saying that if there was no Iraq war that we wouldn’t have a problem with Muslims killing people in all these countries, and even people rioting because of a video?

    Bush? that’s why they’re angry? I left about Bush’s war on Iraq, because i haven’t got time to answer everyone of your attacks of the world in defense of Islamic barbarism.

    “What’s the difference between Jewish Zionism and Fundamentalist Islam?”

    How many thousand words can I write. I suppose people could write books about it. But here’s a start.

    1. One group is killing people of many different religions in many different countries and giving many different reasons for it.
    2. One group has women and sometimes children blow themselves up in order to kill innocent people.
    3. One group demands people kill makers of videos in other countries.
    4. One group wants to take over the world and establish their laws in them.

    Oh this is ridiculous.. how long would you want to go on.

    I’ll tell you what Net Researcher. Just look on the news of the last week, and count the number of people killed or injured by Islamic Fundamentalists, and compare it with those killed by Jewish Zionists.

    Let’s go Bones. That should keep you busy.

    No comparison.

    Oh
    “About 60 years and one’s government policy.”

    Wrong, wrong,wrong on both counts.

  323. Get over yourself Q. You don’t speak for Christians. Evil is evil whether it’s local or worldwide. Whether it’s Islamic violence or Jewish or Western.

    Consider the behavior of Jews BEFORE they were granted statehood and compare their behavior with Palestinians today.

    If any valid comparison is to be established, it must be with what the Jews did when they didn’t have a State. And here’s where it is worth remembering that 63 years ago, Jewish terrorists under the command of later Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin carried out the Deir Yassin massacre, in which at least 93 Arabs were murdered in cold blood — before Israel became independent, the seven Arab armies invaded, etc.

    And it doesn’t end there. When the Jews didn’t have a State, they randomly killed civilians — 42 machine-gun attacks on buses, trucks and carts in January-March, 1948, alone; Arab women, children and elderly people blown to smithereens in markets; parcel bombs delivered to British members of parliament; ambush attacks on British soldiers; high-ranking UN officials mowed down in the street… And remember, the most ferocious Jewish terrorist of all, David Raziel, has hundreds of streets and even a town named after him.

    Ironic really.

    They showed the Arabs how to do it.

    And that terrorism works.

  324. “Palestinian youth beaten unconscious in attempted J’lem ‘lynch’

    Yeah, I think this was terrible. I really do. And innocent man beaten to death. Horrible.

    Now, multiply that incident and see it happen in many different countries. We have a problem now don’t we.

    Maybe some Jews murdered some Germans during or before WW2.
    I still think what the nazis did to the jews was horrific, and we should be rightly appalled when some people say that the Holocaust didn’t happen – or that if it did, it was good.

    And here’s the difference. If your story makes the news, it’s possible that somewhere in the world some Muslim will try to take vengeance for it.

    Keep going Bones, next you’ll be finding poor men who have been raped by women, to prove that we shouldn’t talk about men raping women.

  325. And because of 1948…. we should ignore Bali, Nigeria, how far should we go?

    I am not speaking for Christians. If I weren’t a Christian, I’d still be worried about Muslim violence. And if I became an atheist tomorrow who liked freedom of speech, I’d choose to live in Israel over any Muslim country.

    Which is ironic. The average unchurched Harry is worried about Muslim terrorists too.

  326. What is your problem? Are you that thick?

    I have said that Islamic fundamentalism is evil as is Islamic violence.

    Do you disagree?

    I do not believe most Muslims are terrorists?

    Do we agree?

  327. Q says:
    September 27, 2012 at 12:56 pm  (Edit)
    So,
    I couldn’t find it Wazza. In which country is there a popular reggae song with those lyrics?
    Australia?
    US?

    Well the song is of course Psalm 137. Boney M had a hit with it (with a kind of Reggae beat) in the 70’s called “By the rivers of Babylon”. They left off the bit about enjoying smashing babies’ heads against rocks of course.

  328. @Bones

    Consider the behavior of Jews BEFORE they were granted statehood and compare their behavior with Palestinians today.

    You’re a racist Bones. And an anti-Semite.

  329. After the war the Jews conducted payback killings on Nazis. Including lacing their bread with Arsenic.

    Not judging, just sayin…

  330. “Consider the behavior of Jews BEFORE they were granted statehood and compare their behavior with Palestinians today.

    You’re a racist Bones. And an anti-Semite.”

    What did I write that was wrong?

    Instead of throwing insults, educate me.

    Jewish groups used terrorism prior to 1948.

    I’m interested in you disputing that.

  331. Read about the Stern Gang (or Lehi). These militant Jews actually preferred the Nazis to the Brits. In 1940 they contacted Germany to aid them in getting the British out of the Middle East in return for a Jewish state with unlimited immigration.

    Lehi had three main goals:

    To bring together all those interested in liberation (that is, those willing to join in active fighting against the British).
    To appear before the world as the only active Jewish military organization.
    To take over Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) by armed force.[20]
    Lehi believed in its early years that its goals would be achieved by finding a strong international ally that would expel the British from Palestine, in return for Jewish military help; this would require the creation of a broad and organised military force “demonstrating its desire for freedom through military operations.”[21]

    Lehi also referred to themselves as ‘terrorists’ and may have been one of the last organizations to do so.[22]

    An article titled “Terror” in the Lehi underground newspaper He Khazit (The Front ) argued as follows:

    Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: “Ye shall blot them out to the last man.” But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all. [23]

    The article described the goals of terror:

    It demonstrates … against the true terrorist who hides behind his piles of papers and the laws he has legislated.
    It is not directed against people, it is directed against representatives. Therefore it is effective.
    If it also shakes the Yishuv from their complacency, good and well.[23]
    Yitzhak Shamir, one of the three leaders of Lehi after Yair Stern’s assassination, argued for the legitimacy of Lehi’s actions:

    There are those who say that to kill Martin (a British sergeant) is terrorism, but to attack an army camp is guerrilla warfare and to bomb civilians is professional warfare. But I think it is the same from the moral point of view. Is it better to drop an atomic bomb on a city than to kill a handful of persons? I don’t think so. But nobody says that President Truman was a terrorist. All the men we went for individually — Wilkin, Martin, MacMichael and others — were personally interested in succeeding in the fight against us. So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets. In any case, it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. For us it was not a question of the professional honor of a soldier, it was the question of an idea, an aim that had to be achieved. We were aiming at a political goal. There are many examples of what we did to be found in the Bible — Gideon and Samson, for instance. This had an influence on our thinking. And we also learned from the history of other peoples who fought for their freedom — the Russian and Irish revolutionaries, Giuseppe Garibaldi and Josip Broz Tito.[24]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

    That’s not racist.

    That’s fact.

  332. And Lehi was only one Jewish militant group, there was the Irgun as well.

    But their war of terror on the Brits and Arabs seems to be legitimate when really the Arabs and Muslims have copied and amplified what these groups did to get the British out of Palestine.

    And they justified it through the Torah.

    Summary of Irgun and Lehi attacks

    They were attacking the British even while the British were attacking Germany.

    http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/kidnap.htm

  333. What about the Jewish avengers who apparently with full support of the future Israeli PM, plotted to poison the water supply of several German cities.

    Fortunately apprehended by the British redhanded with a drum full of poison.

    Lucky they werent Muslims or you guys would go ape-shit.

  334. @Bones

    “What did I write that was wrong?

    Instead of throwing insults, educate me.

    Jewish groups used terrorism prior to 1948.

    I’m interested in you disputing that.”

    I was pointing out your hypocrisy Bones. On the one hand, according to your logic, the Muslims have been “forced” to commit acts of extreme violence because they have been provoked, so you excuse or downplay their heinous acts, whereas you cherry-pick a few instances where the tables have been turned, and suddenly it’s the Jews who are evil. And your lapdog wazza salivates at your every word like a little puppy eager to please.

    Reminds me of this actually

  335. Still feeding the moral equivalence trolls, I see!

    Islamic violence and militant force can’t be bad because Christian and Jewish fundamentalism is!

    Huh????

    We deplore Islamic violence but we don’t want to be seen to agree with people who would like to say so, so we try to negate what they say by adding in whatever we can find which proves there are bad Christian thinkers and evil Jewish defenders of their own State.

    Ehwhat???

    We can’t bring ourselves to say that Islamic terrorism is bad and leave it at that, so we go on and on about other people, even though their crimes are not nearly as frequent, global, or irrational.

    Geting closer to the truth of your position!

  336. George Bush could not have done anything in Iraq without the agreement of Congress!

    Bones obviously thinks Saddam and Chemical Ali should still be running the country.

    Can you tell us, Bones, if there was ever a time when Saddam used chemical warfare against anyone?

    Or was Saddam innocent of all accusations against him?

    Bones obviously thinks the Taliban should still be running Afghanistan.

    Do you support the Taliban’s cause, Bones, as the main power in Afghanistan?

    Do you support their sponsorship of terrorism?

    Do you think they should be allowed to remain in northern Pakistan?

  337. @wazza

    ” Islamic violence is bad.”

    So is Line Dancing. Now, what do you really think?

    “Now you try it for the other fundamentalist violence”

    The ten or so instances where this has occurred in the last half century are disgusting and reprehensible. What about the DAILY instances of Islamic violence? What do you say to the families of the thousands of innocent people killed this week wazza?

  338. I would never say that Jews are evil. Just like I would never say Islam is evil.

    I was waiting for you to use your logic.

    When extremist Muslims perpetrate crimes against humanity, it’s the evils of Islam.

    When extremist Jews do it (including forced settlements), it’s a minority and cherry picking.

  339. I think we already did, several times, in many different ways, but you deliberately missed that to attack anyone but Islamist terrorists.

    But the point is that you persist with your equivalence regardless of what is posted.

    For instance, if I put up a post on over 600 Catholic abuse cases you turn up with the one known, often recorded Hillsong case.

    No matter what is said about the evils of Islamic terror you look for a Christian offence, or a Jewish atrocity.

    You compare us to Nazis, Breivik, Pol Pot, and the like.

    But you never give more than a grudging short phrase which admits Islamic terror is evil. Period. End of.

  340. We can’t bring ourselves to say that Islamic terrorism is bad and leave it at that

    Gee you crap on.

    There’s a couple of issues here.

    1) The notion that Islamic terror is worse than other terror
    2) Roundhouse’s absurd belief that terrorism is a core teaching of Islam hence the extremists. Yet refuses to apply that logic on others.
    3) The origins of terrorism in the Middle East. I think you’ll find that it was tit for tat in the beginnings. Now it has expanded to not just an Israeli-Palestinian war, but Western-Muslim War.

    And of course the issue I raised which no one has addressed is how to combat Islamic Fundamentalism.

    That’s a political, economic and social issue. Not religious.

    Where Islamic Fundamentalism is festering and flourishing are areas of abject poverty, high unemployment, negligible human rights, totalitarian regimes.

    You can kill all the imams you want, but these are the breeding conditions for Fundamental Islam.

  341. ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!
    ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS EVIL!

  342. Wake up Steve, Congress never declared war on Iraq or Afghanistan.

    There was a climate of extreme fear after the September 11 attacks, supposedly masterminded by a Saudi and carried out by a majority of Saudi nationals. So what does the US do? Go and attack Afghanistan and Iraq of course! Oh and let the Bin Ladin family fly out when no one else was allowed, because they couldnt possibly be associated with terrorism could they?

    And the next week we had the Anthrax attacks, letters sent to Senators and journalists with Anthrax in them, accompanied by a note praising Allah. But we never hear about those attacks any more. I wonder why? Could it be because the Anthrax was found to be weapons grade and could only have come from a US military facility?

    Then there was the weapons of mass destruction fiasco. Keep going back to the CIA until you get the answer you want, and then if its still not good enough start your own new intelligence service. Then when its all found to be lies, wave your hand like a Jedi and say “its about regime change”. And watch all the masses fall for your mind trick.

    The war on terror was never about reducing terrorism. The assessment given to the US was that war in Iraq would increase terrorism. And it has.

    Terrorism is not a high priority for the US, war is. The US needs war to keep its economy afloat. It needs it to keep the powerful companies in work from the taxpayer, making armaments and rebuilding bombed cities.

    Terrorism is just a pretext to keep the population in fear and willing to accept the ridiculous taxes to keep the system going. Youve fallen for it.

  343. I’m reposting this so it doesn’t get lost.

    And of course the issue I raised which no one has addressed is how to combat Islamic Fundamentalism.

    That’s a political, economic and social issue. Not religious.

    Where Islamic Fundamentalism is festering and flourishing are areas of abject poverty, high unemployment, negligible human rights, totalitarian regimes.

    You can kill all the imams you want, but these are the breeding conditions for Fundamentalist Islam.

    Discuss.

  344. @Bones

    “Where Islamic Fundamentalism is festering and flourishing are areas of abject poverty, high unemployment, negligible human rights, totalitarian regimes.

    You can kill all the imams you want, but these are the breeding conditions for Fundamentalist Islam.”

    I call bulls**t Bones. So it’s a result of their poor environment, and has nothing to do with their Holy book ordering them to do it? You gullible ignorant fool.

    And where does all of this poverty, unemployment, negligible human rights and totalitarian regimes come from Bones? From the West? No. From Islam. It’s a middle ages religion with no place in the modern world.

  345. Great attitude there, Roundhouse.

    To you it’s a battle of extermination.

    Have a look where it’s flourishing. Indonesia, Gaza (the blockade making it worse), Northern Nigeria which is far poorer than the South, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia with it’s regime.

    And most of those who are taking it up are young males with not much else to live for.

    I bet you won’t find a rich suicide bomber.

  346. @Bones

    “To you it’s a battle of extermination.”

    To ISLAM it is a battle of extermination. Read the Koran. Not the earlier cuddly stuff about the Jews and Christians, but the stuff after that supersedes these passages. Remember the Islamic concept of Nasikh (to abolish or replace)? Read the later passages in the Koran that orders the followers of Islam to annihilate the infidels. That’s you and I, and the Jews, and the Buddhists, Scientologists, Hindus etc. Then once you’ve done that you can begin to speak with authority on the subject instead of making yourself look even more foolish

  347. Robert H. Pelletreau, Jr.: Not Every Fundamentalist Is a Terrorist

    Robert H. Pelletreau, Jr. has been the Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs since February 1994. A lawyer by training, he joined the Foreign Service in 1962, and has served in nine Middle Eastern countries, three (Bahrain, Egypt, Tunisia) as ambassador. In Washington, Mr. Pelletreau has held a number of senior positions in the State Department and also in the Department of Defense. Daniel Pipes and Patrick Clawson interviewed Mr. Pelletreau in his office on June 6, 1995.

    MEQ: How do you account for the surge of fundamentalist Islam?

    Pelletreau: It generally follows from conditions of extreme poverty, of not finding a job, of feeling blocked, of not being able to lead a normal life. In an era when the “isms” of communism and socialism, even of Arab nationalism, have lost their luster, it is quite understandable that many people return to their religious roots for meaning and for values. Regrettably, some of them take an additional turn and, to show their opposition, espouse violence or even direct terrorism. That is crossing a big divide.

    MEQ: A year ago, you characterized fundamentalists as Muslims who place a “renewed emphasis on traditional values.”1 Is the Islamic resurgence really a matter of returning to traditional values?

    Pelletreau: Sometimes, when people feel no identity with their society as it exists, they turn to their religious and cultural roots. They then become fertile ground for the appeal of political Islam.

    MEQ: Is it correct to say that you draw a sharp distinction between moderate fundamentalists who are in the political process and extremists who engage in violence?

    Pelletreau: I make a broader distinction than that. A whole spectrum exists when we talk about Islam, from, at one end, the practice of one of the world’s great religions to, at the other end, violent, extremist groups seeking political power through the use of terrorism and violence under the guise of Islamic principles.

    MEQ: “Under the guise”: are you suggesting that their Islam is false? That they are not in fact pious Muslims?

    Pelletreau: Some say that. It probably depends on the personal political ambition on the part of an individual or a group of leaders. The phenomenon of extremist Islam shows itself in many different groups and situations and countries. We ought not to oversimplify or color them . . .

    MEQ: “Them” means the fundamentalists?

    Pelletreau: . . . all one color. Every leader or official who claims to be a good Muslim is not tainted. I have trouble defining exactly where one category starts and another stops, for example, where in the spectrum to place the Saudis. We ought not color every party or group or government the same way, nor should we simplistically condemn them all as anti-Western.

    MEQ: What about in Algeria? Does that country have moderate and extremist fundamentalists?

    Pelletreau: In Algeria, the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) before 1992 was almost entirely a political movement: very few of its members espoused violence, possessed arms, or resorted to armed conflict. In January 1992, the army intervened to interrupt the electoral process; less than a month later, the Algerian government declared the FIS an illegal organization. After that, the FIS became increasingly radicalized. More and more of its members moved towards extremism.

    My discussions with Algerian political leaders of various stripes in such major parties as the Front of Socialist Forces and the National Liberation Front indicate that they seek a dialogue with the government that also includes the more pragmatic elements of the FIS. They clearly believe that such elements exist even at this time of increasing radicalization. Through that process, they hope to broaden the base of the government beyond its narrow military constituency.

    MEQ: Do such pragmatic elements really exist? Many anti-fundamentalist Muslims emphatically deny their existence. For example, President Zine al Abidine Ben Ali of Tunisia points out that the “final aim” of all fundamentalists is the same: “the construction of a totalitarian, theocratic state.”2 Osman Bencherif, Algeria’s ambassador to the United States, says that “it is misguided policy to distinguish between moderate and extremist fundamentalists. The goal of all is the same: to construct a pure Islamic state, which is bound to be a theocracy and totalitarian.”3 Are they wrong?

    Pelletreau: They’ve made these statements from a political point of view based on where each of them sit and what each’s political objectives are. President Ben Ali is concerned about instability in a neighboring state’s flowing over and affecting the stability of Tunisia; and he sees an ever more radicalized and violent Islamic movement as the primary source of that instability. The Algerian ambassador represents his government and his government’s point of view; his is also a political statement. Neither of their statements purports to be the result of an objective, academic analysis of the Islamic phenomenon across the board; rather, these reflect how each of them from his specific perspective sees one aspect of a larger whole.

    MEQ: But opposition leaders say the same thing. Saïd Sadi, the militant Algerian secularist, argues that “a moderate Islamist is someone who does not have the means of acting ruthlessly to seize power immediately.”4 Even more dramatically, Mohammad Mohaddessin, director of international relations for the People’s Mojahedin of Iran, declares that “moderate fundamentalists do not exist. . . . It’s like talking about a moderate Nazi.”5

    Pelletreau: Some concur with this outlook and some differ with it. It is a complex subject that requires a great deal of study. It is a subject and a phenomenon in evolution. We should be careful about stereotyping.

    http://www.meforum.org/266/robert-h-pelletreau-jr-not-every-fundamentalist

  348. @wazza

    “Have you read the Koran, Roundhouse?”

    I have read large parts of it. But I have studied a fair bit about it. And what I have discovered is that it is definitely not a book of peace. It is a book of war.

    @Bones

    Wow, another pointless copy and paste from Bones from some obscure website of some Westerner desperate to appear “inclusive” of Muslims. Just like Obama, Clinton, Gillard, Swan, and the UN. Meanwhile thousands of innocents are brutally murdered each week by those who are obeying their holy book.

  349. So were the Muslims bad guys when they were doing the Americans bidding?

    A review of
    Devil’s Game: How the United States Helped Unleash Fundamentalist Islam

    by Richard Dreyfuss – an investigative journalist.

    The book addresses a number of different Middle Eastern interventions made by the West, as outlined below.

    Islamic Radicalism as a tool against Pro-Soviet Pan-Arabism
    The book discusses how Western governments supported the growth of the Muslim Brotherhood in order to sabotage the efforts of Pro-Soviet Arab Nationalist leaders such as Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt. The goals of Gamal Abdel Nasser were to end Western domination and control in the Middle East. This was a great threat to Western interests, who used the Islamic brotherhood to destabilize the Nassar government. The Islamic Brotherhood continues to conduct terrorist activities in Egypt.

    Support of Islamic Radicalism as an Anti-Communist strategy
    Dreyfuss also discusses how the West used Islamic radicalism to suppress Communist movements in the Middle East and the rest of the Islamic world. He provides a comprehensive review of the support of Western governments for the Mujahadeen and Jihadi Islamic fighters, who were trained and sent into Afghanistan. With the close support and advice of CIA paramilitaries, these Islamic jihadists helped defeat Soviet forces in Afghanistan. The book also describes the work of Dr. Bernard Lewis and his model of Islamic Balkanization, where the CIA secretly supported Islamic movements within the Soviet Union to utilize them as Anti-Communist insurgents in the event of war. The consequence of this CIA program is the present-day Islamic Chechen separatist conflict that the Russians are fighting.

    Islamic Radicalism as a divisive tactic
    The author also discusses how the Israeli government supported the growth of Hamas as a tool to fight the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). The PLO was always viewed as the major threat to Israel, because they were the more educated and secular Palestinians. They had fought a very effective campaign against Israel, whereas Hamas has had very limited success. The book predicts the current Palestianian crisis where (PLO) Fatah and Hamas militias battled each other in the streets of Gaza and in other parts of Palestine for dominance over the Palestinian people. Dreyfuss claims that the political and economic isolation of Hamas is currently suffocating the new government. Gaza is running out of gas and public workers have not been paid for many months. This has been a strategic victory for Israel in a classic example of divide and conquer.

    In Iran the CIA got the most political ayatollahs to support an overthrow of the elected government (it had nationalized oil assets) and restore the Shah (the U.S. got 40% of oil rights in return); what was not recognized at the time was the key importance of a young ayatollah involved – Khomeini’s mentor, as well as Khomeini himself. In the ’60s Arab socialism spread from Egypt to Algeria, Syria, Iraq, and Palestine. To counteract this seeming threat the U.S. joined with Saudi Arabia to export its Wahhabi religious right and Muslim Brotherhood factions. Even after the Iranian revolution of ’79, the U.S. failed to recognize that Islamism was a dangerous force.
    Carter’s inauguration alarmed the Shah and encouraged Iranian opposition groups – both due to U.S. pressures and memories of Kennedy’s earlier thoughts of replacing the Shah with a less authoritarian regime. Sensing blood the clergy began to mobilize the wealthy landed population against land reform, the Shah was overthrown, and soon we were in the midst of the 444-day hostage crisis.

    So the Americans played with Islamic Fundamentalists, supported them, armed them, encouraged them.

    Now it’s bitten them on the arse.

  350. Roundhouse, I’d trust someone who has has over 33 years experience working in 9 different Arab countries than your ‘expertise’ based on your ‘studies’.

  351. @wazza

    “Which parts have you read, Roundhouse?”

    That’s a bit like asking what parts of the bible have I read. I can’t tell you by chapter and verse, but I read the first five Surah’s, then I got bored with it, so I just opened it wherever and read until I got bored again. It really is eye opening in it’s language regarding Jews and Christians however. You should try it some time. Hopefully it will wake you up from your stupor

  352. Roundhouse said “Wow, another pointless copy and paste from Bones from some obscure website of some Westerner desperate to appear “inclusive” of Muslims.”

    Errr… the Mid-East forum? They are pretty tough on violent Islamism. Look how they came down on the Muslims for the latest violence : http://www.meforum.org/3341/christopher-stevens-rape

    The difference between these guys and the likes of you and Steve is that they are able to see shades of grey. They dont think which side they should be on and then look for evidence to support it. They weigh up both sides of an argument. They can discern between violent fundamental Islam and moderate Islam.

    As fundamentalists yourselves, you ought to have some insight into Islamic fundamentalism. But the problem with fundamentalism is that it allows you to be absolutely sure of something that patently isnt true.

    Fundamentalists think they are the most loving people on earth, while at the same time spewing out hatred.

    They think they have access to specialised and rare knowledge while being the most ignorant people on the planet.

    They go to endless leadership conferences and think they are leaders while being dragged by the nose through every money making and political scheme going.

  353. @Bones

    “I’d trust someone who has has over 33 years experience working in 9 different Arab countries than your ‘expertise’ based on your ‘studies’.”

    You can trust whoever you like Bones. No skin off my nose. I choose to believe that the words written in the Koran mean what they say, and say what they mean. It’s book of murder and conquest. Appeasers all around the West can grovel at the feet of their Muslim “brothers” as much as they want. I however choose to be aware of what’s really going on.

  354. @Bones

    “the problem with fundamentalism is that it allows you to be absolutely sure of something that patently isnt true.”

    I am absolutely sure of this – I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there he shall come to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting.

    And you are saying this is patently untrue. Hmmm…..

  355. “You can trust whoever you like Bones.”

    That’s right.

    If my car has a problem, I’ll see a mechanic. If I want to know why my kids are sick, I’ll see a doctor.

    I’ll be blowed if I’m going to consult an anonymous ‘expert’ who happened to read something somewhere and adopt that as truth.

  356. So you read the first 5 surahs out of 114 (or 4% of the entire Koran), but these are the “nice” earlier bits of the Koran that you say people should disregard in favour of the later nastier bits.

    Then you got bored and started opening it at random and reading whatever was there. You havent even done what you told us to do (in any methodical or fair manner) :

    Read the later passages in the Koran that orders the followers of Islam to annihilate the infidels.
    ….
    Then once you’ve done that you can begin to speak with authority on the subject instead of making yourself look even more foolish

    Do you agree that even by your own standards you cant speak with any authority on the subject, and have made yourself look foolish?

  357. “And you are saying this is patently untrue. Hmmm…..”

    You might want to rethink that post…

    Or read it again, cos it didn’t make sense.

  358. @Bones

    “Roundhouse, you need to pray for Muslims.

    Pray that they’ll see Christ and receive healing, forgiveness, reconciliation, peace.”

    Absolutely. The only thing of any truth you have said on this entire thread.

  359. No rich suicide bombers?

    Bin Laden didn’t do his own bombing, but he wasn’t poor.
    The guys who flew the planes into buildings weren’t poor.
    Do a little more research.

  360. “Well the song is of course Psalm 137. Boney M had a hit with it (with a kind of Reggae beat) in the 70′s called “By the rivers of Babylon”. They left off the bit about enjoying smashing babies’ heads against rocks of course.”

    Exactly. So in response to the fact that there is a vile hit song in Egypt, you asked me what I thought about a verse that PURPOSELY was not put in a Boney M song……

    That is truly weird.

    And I answered – Christians don’t sing about smashing babies heads. You insinuated that they did. BUt they don’t.

    Which is of course the kind of thing I have been saying for days on this thread.

    Do you understand? I liked that Boney M song. I remember when it came out.
    But I don’t think it would have been a hit if they sang about smashing babies heads in Iraq,

    On the other hand, back in Egypt we have an incredibly vile song which not only is allowed, but it becomes a hit.

    Can you see the difference…….? Or not.

  361. But its a song that is in the Bible. A Psalm of David. It probably wouldnt have been sung with a reggae beat in those days, but its likely it would have been sung with a tamborine and some sort of stringed instrument.

    Those lyrics arent popular now, but they were sung at one time. And they are now read many

    If a Western Christian sang those words now, would you call it an incredibly vile song? Would you decry the hatred inherent in the words?

    Is the only reason Boney M’s song is acceptable, is because they left out those words?

  362. Bin Laden didn’t do his own bombing, but he wasn’t poor.
    The guys who flew the planes into buildings weren’t poor.
    Do a little more research.

    That was one of the conditions. Saudi Arabia is a totalitarian regime. That was another condition.

    But Bin Laden is another creation of the West

    National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski visited Afganistan in 1979 and met with Bin Laden and even took a picture with him. Brzezinski would tell the mujahideen
    “We know of their deep belief in God, and we are confident their struggle will succeed. That land over there is yours, you’ll go back to it one day because your fight will prevail, and you’ll have your homes and your mosques back again. Because your cause is right and God is on your side.”

    The BBC, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and the Russian journal Demokratizatsiya have all written that the CIA and U.S.A. funded and supported Bin Laden during the Afghan war.
    Former British Foreign secretary, Robin Cook said:
    Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan.

    Several other authors, journalists and statesmen have all made the claim that Bin Laden was funded, armed and trained by the CIA to fight off the Russians.

    After Ronald Reagan was elected in 1981, U.S. funding of the mujahideen increased significantly and CIA Paramilitary Officers played a big role in training, arming and sometimes even leading mujahideen forces.

    The CIA trained the mujahideen in many of the tactics Al Qaeda is known for today, such as car bombs, assassinations and other acts that would be considered terrorism today.

    The U.S.A. would fund Gulbuddin Hekmatyar a mujahideen leader and alleged heroin dealer who worked closely with Bin Laden. Hekmaytyar and his political party/paramilitary group would receive more than $600 million from the USA. Author, Alfred McCoy, would claim that the CIA supported Hekmatyar in his illicit heroin trade to allow him to fund the mujahideen.Like Bin Laden, Hekmatyar has also become an enemy of the U.S., waging a war against coalition forces in Afghanistan after 2001.

    America must learn from the foreign policy mistakes of our past. These mistakes have lead to the creation of our enemies, such as Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noreaga, and Osama Bin Laden. The enemy of our enemy is not always our friend, most often they become our enemies too. As America gives aid to rebels in Libya and other countries we must be cautious not to create another Bin Laden.

    http://newsone.com/1205745/cia-osama-bin-laden-al-qaeda/

    And no that’s not my anti-US opinion.

    That’s fact.

  363. Those lyrics arent popular now, but they were sung at one time. And they are now read many

    Q, I’m pretty sure the Church lectionary which Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Uniting use in church services so that over 3 years you will hear 99% of the Bible, refuse to use verses like Psalm 137:19 on the grounds that they aren’t edifying.

    Churches still sing the Psalms too. All of them. Once again I believe those verses are left out.

  364. @wazza

    If a Western Christian sang those words now, would you call it an incredibly vile song?

    Yes, And i already said that.

    Would you decry the hatred inherent in the words?
    Yes. I don’t see why Christian would sing about smashing babies heads in the 21st century. Put it this way, I wouldn’t go to their church. And if I did, I’d leave. No problem.

    Is the only reason Boney M’s song is acceptable, is because they left out those words?

    No, It’s because it’s really groovy with a very singable melody and I have a thing for black women. And it takes me back to the 70s when liberal Christians instead of pushing for gay marriage were still back on tamer stuff like saying Christians should be able to have sex before marriage and railing against the Vietnam war. Of course Bones and his teachers were probably thinking they were REALLY COOL DUDES for carrying around Mao’s little red book and smoking and drinking coffee with berets on their heads and talking about liberation theology… and saying how communism would soon take over and we could all live like Jesus said….

    ah. the times they are a changin …. (Except for hatred of the US – that’s a constant)

    Silly question. But, yeah. Boney M’s song is acceptable. The anti-Israel Egyptian one isn’t. Any more questions??

  365. I have to say that after reading of the US’s involvement in Iran, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Israel’s support of Hamas over the PLO, and how they supported and used radical Islamists like the Mujahadeen and the Muslim Brotherhood against Communism and Arab Nationalist movements, that we’re seeing the fruits of these foreign policies now.

  366. wazza,
    ‘The difference between these guys and the likes of you and Steve is that they are able to see shades of grey. They dont think which side they should be on and then look for evidence to support it. They weigh up both sides of an argument. They can discern between violent fundamental Islam and moderate Islam.

    As fundamentalists yourselves, you ought to have some insight into Islamic fundamentalism. But the problem with fundamentalism is that it allows you to be absolutely sure of something that patently isnt true.

    Fundamentalists think they are the most loving people on earth, while at the same time spewing out hatred.

    They think they have access to specialised and rare knowledge while being the most ignorant people on the planet.

    They go to endless leadership conferences and think they are leaders while being dragged by the nose through every money making and political scheme going.’

    Well, I utterly eject that. I am well able to see both sides.

    Which part of what I have written here have you ailed to see with your blinkered eyes?

    The part where I told you I work and live in a Muslim area of London, have colleagues and neighbours who are Muslim, and have business dealings with Muslims, including friendships, working relationships and associations with them?

    The part where I said there are a great number who are either, what I call modern Muslims (your term would be ‘moderate’), who have a democratic outlook, or nominal Muslims, who are closer to secularism than militant Islam, and not interested in the conflict?

    The part where I said in the post on the other thread that I hoped they would all find Christ, and that there would be an Islamic Reformation which eliminated the militant wings and rendered them pointless?

    And a reformation which was inspired by the Christian community demonstrating tolerance, inclusion, an open heart and a welcoming attitude which was tempered by a Christ-like approach to all peoples?

    An entire post, wazza, on a reformation which would lead to peace, and you missed it. I doubt you even read it!

    But I thought you were one of those people who see both sides of a situation, mine included, presumably, and saw the shades of grey.

    No. You’re as bigoted as you claim others are, in fact.

    You’re as much a sectarian as Bones. You are as much a hater of certain groups and as biased about your attitude towards them as anyone. Your glasses are one-way mirrors of your own perspective.

    You couldn’t see the other side of an argument if it was posted on a Christian blog for you to read.

    Oh, wait a minute…

  367. I’ll see if I can get tonite’s Hamster Wheel when it coes out.

    Till then here’s last years.

    Oh and I think Islamic terrorism is evil.

    Roundhouse, did you join in Ban the Burqa day?

  368. I realise never actually got around to explaining my real views on “moderate” Muslims. As I said a few days ago, I played the “bad cop” to Bones “good cop” (ok, a bad analogy, I know, because nothing Bones actually believes in is good, but stick with me), over exaggerating and over simplifying my real beliefs and opinions regarding normal man-on-the-street Muslims to give Bones and Greg a taste of their own medicine. Whilst it was fun watching Bones become gradually unhinged (assuming of course that he was ever “hinged” in the first place), I said many things about moderate Muslims that I didn’t really mean, or to be more precise, I over emphasised some aspects of them for the sake of dramatic effect. Like Steve, I also work with a few Muslims occasionally, and there are a few where I live, but being a small suburb on the outskirts of the city, they are small in number. We have a halal butcher, and a small mosque nearby, but I only see probably one or two in my local shopping centre. The Muslims I do see keep to themselves, and apart from the occasional smile or a quick word about whatever while waiting at the checkouts I never get a chance to talk to any of them.

    My work situation is a different story. My job takes me all around Australia and sometimes around the world, and so I get more of an opportunity to spend time with Muslims at work than I do at home. My experiences have been mostly positive with the Muslims that I have spent time with. But there is one incident that scared the proverbial out of me, which showed me how some man-on-the-street Muslims can appear one way, but actually be the opposite. One of the portfolios I work in is health. I was recently in the home of a young Muslim family whose two teenage sons have an hereditary skin condition known as Epidermolysis Bullosa, or EB. The boys require regular dressing changes, and some new types of dressings were being tried for the first time with them. They seemed like really friendly boys, and it was heart breaking to see their pain as the old dressings were removed and the new ones applied. It was awesome to see their faces when the solutions in the dressings began to work, soothing the pain almost straight away. Their mother, who was not in the room with us, almost cried when she heard her boys laughing instead of wincing in pain. It was a fabulous thing to see. Heartwarming in fact. There was no “us and them”, just a mother excited to see her sick boys looking better. Now, it would be lovely to end the story there. Bones would get his little tingle, and feel those “tolerance” juices start to flow up his legs and begin warming the cockles of his heart, and fist-pump the air, excited that a war-mongeing white man and a peace loving Muslim could co-exist so, well, peacefully. But then, things changed. When we first arrived I thought it strange that a Muslim woman would allow two Western men into her home, especially because her husband was not at home. But because the female representative from the pharmaceutical company was with us, as well as a woman from the PR company and a female photographer (it was a big deal, so she was taking photos of the event), I figured that their presence made it ok for us to be there, as well as the fact that her eldest boy was 18 and, knowing a little about their culture, I figured that he was probably acting as the authoritative male figure. While they had been changing the dressings, the older boy got a phone call. He spoke in Arabic, so we had no idea what he was saying. He smiled the whole time, so we thought nothing of it. It wasn’t until we were sitting in the loungeroom afterwards having a coffee that I began to piece together what the phone call had been about. Without knocking four boys about 18 years old walked straight in the front door. The mother stood up immediately and began to speak, but one of the boys gave her a look and she stopped talking. Another peered at me in undisguised hatred. I could tell that he was really p****d off that two white men was sitting in the loungeroom in the company of four women, one of whom was Muslim. No one spoke for a few seconds, and then the mother said something else in Arabic, and the four boys walked past us to the brother’s bedroom, all the while not taking their eyes off us. A few seconds later the two brothers came out of the room with them, and their smiles had disappeared, replaced by sneers. My colleague and I got the hint pretty quickly. We thanked the mother and the boys and got out of there quick smart! It was obvious that they had been offended that two men were in the same room with the boys mother without her husband being there, even though her eldest son was there. But he was still in his bedroom getting changed while we sat in the loungeroom drinking coffee. Now, I understand that culturally we were most probably inadvertently offending them by doing that, but what was frightening was the looks of pure hatred on the faces of these boys, and the fact that, really, anything could have happened to us. Who knows? That kind of experience, coupled with what I know about what the Koran says about those who are not Muslims, as well as the concept of Taqiyya, makes me wary of the motives of some Muslims, moderate or hard-line. At the same time, I have had some positive experiences with Muslims too. So, the fact is there are friendly and peaceful Muslims out there, but all of it depends on how seriously they take their holy book. The more seriously they take it, the more dangerous they are. It’s as simple as that really.

  369. Ok Q, bear with me, we are getting there (I think)…..

    So the Bible contains an incredibly vile song (according to you). One that is morally repulsive.

    Couldnt outsiders point to this song as evidence of the evils of Judaism and Christianity? How can you say that a song about the destruction of Israel is evidence of the evils of Islam, without also saying that Psalm 137 is evidence of the evils of Christianity?

  370. This no less than the pronouncement of the destruction of Babylon, which will be judged for its cruelty, deception and manipulation of he world’s affairs.

    Isaiah gives even more detail.

    Isaiah 13
    1 ¶ The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.
    2 “Lift up a banner on the high mountain, Raise your voice to them; Wave your hand, that they may enter the gates of the nobles.
    3 I have commanded My sanctified ones; I have also called My mighty ones for My anger–Those who rejoice in My exaltation.”
    4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, Like that of many people! A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together! The LORD of hosts musters The army for battle.
    5 They come from a far country, From the end of heaven–The LORD and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land.
    6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
    7 Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man’s heart will melt,
    8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames.
    9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.
    10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
    11 “I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
    12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
    13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.
    14 It shall be as the hunted gazelle, And as a sheep that no man takes up; Every man will turn to his own people, And everyone will flee to his own land.
    15 Everyone who is found will be thrust through, And everyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
    16 Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished.
    17 “Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
    18 Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces, And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb; Their eye will not spare children.
    19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
    20 It will never be inhabited, Nor will it be settled from generation to generation; Nor will the Arabian pitch tents there, Nor will the shepherds make their sheepfolds there.
    21 But wild beasts of the desert will lie there, And their houses will be full of owls; Ostriches will dwell there, And wild goats will caper there.
    22 The hyenas will howl in their citadels, And jackals in their pleasant palaces. Her time is near to come, And her days will not be prolonged.”

    Well, I ask, where is Babylon to be found today?

    Does it still exist as the greatest and most powerful city of its time? No, it is gone the way of all wickedness.

    So the Israelites in captivity wail over their exile in Babylon, and predict the demise of their captors.

    All you are attempting is to misread what is being said to fit your own political devises. In so doing you misapply the meaning of the Psalm.

  371. More from Jeremaiah 25:

    12 ‘Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,’ says the LORD; ‘and I will make it a perpetual desolation.
    13 ‘So I will bring on that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah has prophesied concerning all the nations.
    14 ‘(For many nations and great kings shall be served by them also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to the works of their own hands.)’”
    15 For thus says the LORD God of Israel to me: “Take this wine cup of fury from My hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send you, to drink it.
    16 “And they will drink and stagger and go mad because of the sword that I will send among them.”

  372. Okay Wazza, let me put it this way. I wasn’t talking about what is in the Koran or the Bible. I was talking about 2012 and what people are singing about. I don’t know every verse in the Koran, or Buddhist writings. There may be terrible stuff written in the sacred scriptures of the Holy Magpie Cult that dates back 1000 years. I wouldn’t think about it, unless of course there were people of that religion bombing, killing, raping and flying things into planes, and if in a country full of Holy Mapgie Cult people, there was a hit song that everyone listened to about the destruction of a neighboring country – esp when they were seriously talking about taking over the capital.

    Okay, there is a bible verse about smashing babies heads. Not many people even knew about it except that Muslims and christian haters have tried to find proof for the fact that Christians are as bad as Muslims. But the fact remains, that you don’t hear Christians singing those verses or quoting it when they fly into buildings do you.

    Okay, let’s play hyperthetical. IF christians in many different countries were singing about smashing babies heads, and if Christians did the Bali bombings, the world trade center,, the london and spain bombings, the lockerbie bombings, the slaughter of the Israeli athletes at the 72 Olympics, and were rioting over an anti-Christ video, and wanting their own laws in different countries.

    I WOULD COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND people being scared and wary of Christianity. ABSOLUTELY.

    But Christians ARE NOT SINGING those verses, neither are they the ones blowing people up while quoting verses like that and saying Praise Jesus.

    When that happens in over a dozen countries, ask me again to prove I’m serious.

    okay, are we getting anywhere?

    maybe there is a violent verse in some other religion. Are you going to look it up and then deduce what?

    And I repeat, I don’t think the Boney M song would have been a hit in Australia with those words. Think about why and you might just begin to understand the world a little better.

  373. For the last few days we’ve seen Bones bizarrely obsess about certain minute details while blatantly ignoring reality. Yesterday it was about one line in a Psalm. Laying aside the questions of his mental health, the one thing Bones has failed to do is apply the standard method of correct bible interpretation – who said what to whom and why. The line in Psalm 137 that has Bones all trembling with spittle-flecked rage was NOT, I repeat NOT, written by God or commanded by God. It was David prophesying of the future destruction of Babylon, using descriptive language and metaphor to describe how the violence that Babylon had inflicted upon the people of God would come back upon them.

    Bones is simply ignorant of even the most basic methods of understanding and interpreting scripture. His lack of knowledge is evident in everything he writes. Come on Bones, apply the same rules to yourself that you demand of others. That way you’ll look less stupid.

  374. Roundhouse, let me know when you finish reading the Bible.

    Or do you read it like the Koran. The first couple of chapters and then wherever filled in by what you’ve gleaned by websites.

  375. @Bones

    The bible isn’t a novel that you read from beginning to end fool. It’s a book you study for the rest of your life. Obviously you are ignorant of this. But that’s ok with me. Continue make yourself look foolish. No skin off my nose. As for the Koran, why should I bother reading the whole thing? I am a Christian, not a Muslim. I gained enough insight to it’s depravity simply by reading random chapters. No need to read the lot. It’s a depressing read anyway.

  376. Right Wing Christian Religious Leaders Dream of Holy War With Islam

    September 18th, 2012

    Throughout world history, some of the worst atrocities known to mankind were committed in the name of religion going all the way back to Christian bible’s Old Testament. There are instances of ancient Israelites following god’s command to kill every man, woman, child, slave, and animal in a kingdom simply because the vanquished failed to abandon their religion and follow the Israelites’ god. The idea of Holy War did not end with the Old Testament, and the practice of shedding blood for the Lord became the rallying cry for the Crusades that pitted Christians against Muslims throughout the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries in several Christian military campaigns. Most Christians are aware that their religion’s namesake, Jesus Christ, taught his followers to pursue peace, and it is likely they can recite verbatim his admonition that if one “lives by the sword, they will perish be the sword,” and yet Christian religious leaders have been some of the most outspoken advocates for war.

    America has avoided Holy Wars because the Founders kept a wall of separation between religion and the government, and one founder told Muslims America was not a Christian nation and had no enmity against Muslim laws or their religion. All that changed with the terror attacks of 9/11, and despite statements by George W. Bush that America was not at war with Islam in Afghanistan and Iraq, he often referred to those conflicts as Crusades. For Muslims, it is hard not to view Bush’s imperialism as anything other than a war against their religion, and after an American’s offensive video portraying the prophet Muhammad negatively, they must feel put upon by a so-called Christian nation that openly mocks their religion in front of the entire world.

    At the Values Voter Summit last weekend, the Republican presidential ticket attached themselves to a religious hate fest that was contrived to demonize Muslims as liars and infiltrators, and called on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to strike Iran before November 6 to begin a 21st Century Holy War. There is a concerted effort by Bush neo-conservatives serving as Willard Romney’s foreign policy advisors to entice Israel to strike Iran to begin what one Romney advisor calls “a very substantial war,” and their goal is not to stop Iran from developing a nuclear weapon, but to begin a Holy War between Christianity and Islam. There has been a persistent push in America by Islamophpobes to demean the Muslim faith, and without exception it is the purview of Christian conservatives and religious leaders.

    The current unrest aimed at America is being used by the Romney campaign to portray President Obama’s Mid-East policy as weak for not stopping the outrage caused by the anti-Islam video. In characterizing the upheaval against America, Joe Scarborough denied Muslims were raging at a film, and according to him it was merely an excuse. Scarborough said, “You know why they hate us? They hate us because of their religion, they hate us because of their culture,” but he fails to comprehend that the reason they hate us is because of the time and energy Christian conservatives have spent denigrating Islam knowing full well it results in outrage and violence. One can imagine the Christian outrage if Muslim’s demeaned Jesus Christ, especially in light of the recent outrage at other Americans who are unwilling to follow their biblical edicts.

    When the controversy over a mosque being built near Ground Zero was raging, Republicans lined up to condemn the project as a recruitment center for Islamic extremists as well as an insult to those who perished in the attacks. In 2010, Romney joined a chorus of Islamophpobes by issuing a statement opposing it because of “the potential for extremists to use the mosque for global recruiting and propaganda.” One of the speakers at the Values Voter Summit said, “Islam’s number one enemy is the truth! America’s number one virtue is the truth! Islam obliges Muslims to lie,” and that “it’s a daily thing to lie about America.” It was a classic case of projection for Christians to impugn Muslims for allegedly doing precisely what Republicans have been doing with impunity since 9/11, and at a panel entitled “Israel, Iran, and the Future of Western Civilization,” attendees were told Christians were under attack by Muslims to convince evangelical fanatics to vote out President Obama who they claim is letting it happen.

    One Islamophobe, retired general Jerry Boykin, called for Israel to run a “pre-election strike” to assure Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu has U.S. support, implying a war with Iran will guarantee a victory for Willard Romney. The retired general said such a strike will “have impact globally because the Iranians will unleash a reign of terror on America.” There is a large contingent of evangelical Christians and Mormons who believe retaliation by Muslims on America is one of the consequences of God’s plan, and a requirement for a war known as Armageddon in the Middle East before Jesus can return to earth. Boykin said, “Every Iranian, every Shia, every Muslim that is killed in a return nuclear strike becomes a martyr and goes straight to heaven,” and it is the same theology Christians count on to bring a quick rapture to heaven for the evangelical faithful.

    The Christian fanatics seeking global Holy War with Islam are being bolstered by Israel’s prime minister who said, “Iran is guided by a leadership with an unbelievable fanaticism. It’s the same fanaticism that you see storming your embassies today. Do you want these fanatics to have nuclear weapons?” It is sheer hypocrisy for Netanyahu who leads a country that has killed Muslims by the thousands, developed nuclear weapons, bombed Iraq and Syria to destroy their nuclear programs, and is making plans to start a Holy War with a sovereign Muslim nation that America will end up paying for in lives and money. It must be the first time in American history that a foreign leader is campaigning for a presidential candidate to drive this country into a war that will certainly engulf the entire region, if not the entire world.

    Romney has been warmongering for the past six months, and as his electoral support wanes, there can be little doubt he and Netanyahu are using Middle East violence to affect the upcoming election. The neo-con warmongers and Christian conservatives could not care less about the state of Israel, because the impending Holy War is not about Israel’s existence, but about killing Muslims and bringing about end times. The violence targeting America started with the release of a YouTube video because Christians hate Muslims. Muslims do not hate Americans; they hate Christians who are provoking violence to spark a war to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth. It is a 21st Century Crusade, and Americans must understand that Romney and his neo-con acolytes are not panting for war between America and Iran, but a war between Christians and Muslims to incite the battle of Armageddon and a quick rapture to heaven. For Israel, it is another opportunity to revisit an Old Testament extermination of a people based on their failure to obey the god of Abraham, and like the god of the Old Testament, they will settle for nothing less than the total annihilation of every man, woman, child, and animal associated with the Muslim faith and it is tragic that the lion’s share of the destruction will come from a country that claims the religion whose namesake preached tolerance and peace.

    http://www.politicususa.com/wing-christian-religous-leaders-dream-holy-war-islam.html

  377. Romney and Ryan Court Leaders of Anti-Muslim Hate Fest

    September 16, 2012 |

    If there’s anything we know about evangelical Christians, it’s that they comprise a remarkably effective voting block, and the religious right has been a core part of the Republican coalition for decades.

    So it comes as no surprise, perhaps, that the two top members of the Republican ticket, presidential candidate Mitt Romney and his running-mate, Paul Ryan, would court [3] the Family Research Council at its recent Values Voter Summit in Washington, D.C., where, on Friday, Ryan delivered a speech [4], and Romney appeared via video message [5]. But what is appalling is that the event this duo endorsed quickly devolved into a hate fest directed against an American religious minority.

    At the podium in the massive ballroom of the Omni Shoreham Hotel, and in the breakout sessions that followed, the conference’s Saturday line-up seemed contrived to demonize Muslims as liars, infiltrators and worse — and one speaker, retired Lt. Gen. William “Jerry” Boykin, sought to direct U.S. foreign policy in ways that could affect the outcome of the presidential election, by calling on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to strike Iran before November 6.

    Religious Tolerance — For Whom?

    At the Saturday plenary session, FRC promoted itself as being all about religious tolerance. “Our founding fathers considered religious liberty our first freedom,” intoned FRC president Tony Perkins. “It was the bedrock on which all our freedoms rest.”

    Perkins then introduced a panel of right-wing activists who set out to enrage the audience with tales of Christian students in American public schools being prohibited from praying, thanks to secular school boards and “activist” judges. One story that drew audible anger from the crowd was of a student in at Medina (not that Muslim one!) High School in Texas who was unable to invoke a call to prayer during her valedictorian speech.

    But the discussion quickly turned from the supposed suppression of the Christian faith in the United States to the ostensible privileging of the Islamic one. Fox News Radio’s Todd Starnes condemned the Obama administration’s criticism of an anti-Islam film that has sparked protests in the Middle East.

    “This is not about a film, this is about free speech!” proclaimed Starnes, to thunderous applause from the audience. Overnight, news had broken of the questioning by law enforcement [6] authorities of Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, one of the makers of the anti-Islam video, “Innocence of Muslims,” that has inflamed the Islamic world. Nakoula, an Egyptian-born Christian who is currently serving a sentence for bank fraud, was interviewed to determine whether he had violated the terms of his parole, which prohibits him from going on the internet, through his involvement with video, which was posted on YouTube.

    In Starnes’ telling, though, the interrogation of Nakoula was government “intimidation” of a “Christian filmmaker.” He did not mention that Nakoula was a felon on parole.

    Ironically, Starnes runs a Web site at Fox News Radio where he routinely condemns [7] what he views as anti-Christian or anti-American behavior.

    My God is Bigger Than Yours

    But the other speakers at the plenary panel were small fish compared to Jerry Boykin. The retired U.S. Army lieutenant general was perhaps more fitted for being to a case study on religious hostility than to lecture an audience about it.

    Boykin, whom FRC hired in July [8] to become its executive vice president, has a controversial history [9] of Muslim-bashing, such as when he claimed that the war on terror was a spiritual war between Muslims and “Christian America” in 2003. (That didn’t stop Romney from meeting with him [10] in August.)

    In 2002, Boykin told a church in Daytona Beach, Florida that he was able to pursue a Muslim fighter in Somalia because he knew that “[my] God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol.” An internal investigation found that his anti-Muslim rhetoric had violated three Pentagon rules, but he was allowed to stay on until his retirement in 2007.

    After warning the audience that Hitler was hailed as a progressive, and then equating progressives with Lenin and Stalin, Boykin became particularly animated when he told spoke of how he was rejected, post-retirement, as a speaker at a West Point event. “They asked me to withdraw because atheist groups and the Council on American Islamic Relations asked me not to be there,” he said, anger in his voice. “I had to remind myself, you don’t take flack until you’re over the target. So I reminded myself that I was over the target.”

    Actually, it was VoteVets, a progressive organization of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans, that first raised objections to the scheduled Boykin appearance and applied the relentless pressure that ultimately got Boykin to withdraw, according ThinkProgress [11].

    Barbary Pirates and the Muslim Brotherhood

    The hostility against Muslims only grew in the breakout sessions later that afternoon. The first session I attended was called “Understanding Radical Islam 101.” Behind me sat William Temple, a tea partier and colonial re-enactor who frequents right-wing events, as he did this one, dressed in full colonial regalia, and carrying a full-sized Gadsden flag on a pole.

    Temple told me that he wanted to attend the session because the wars the United States is conducting in the Muslim world today are no different than when, in the 18th and 19th centuries, the U.S. fought the Barbary pirates [12] (a crime syndicate based in Muslim nations known for taking European Christians for ransom, or for the slave trade). In his mind, Muslims have always been at war with America. I reminded him that the first country that recognized America as a sovereign state was Morocco, a Muslim nation. He shrugged off this fact.

    After warning attendees and fellow panelists that “there are media in our mix,” moderator and media consultant Kristi Hamrick set the tone for the session, renaming the session “Islam 101,” and ascribing the beliefs of Islamist extremists to the whole of the world’s Muslim population.

    In a bid for the credibility of her claim, Hamrick introduced Nonie Darwish, an “ex-Muslim” right-wing author and activist who was at the event hawking her book.

    “When it comes to Islam, Americans are confused,” Darwish said, in her thick Egyptian accent. “The whole world is confused,” she explained as audience members nodded along. “The only way to understand the most dangerous ideology of our time is through honest discussion, we should have the courage to speak.”

    Lest anyone in the audience think she was referring only to radicals within the faith, she then launched into a no-holds-barred attack on Muslims as a whole. “Islam’s number one enemy is the truth, that’s the truth! America’s number one virtue is the truth!” she said to applause.

    “Islam is rotten to the core…ultimately the West is giving them a bloodline of credibility that they don’t deserve,” she advised.

    Darwish then picked up on a theme that would be repeated throughout the day: Don’t trust Muslims, they’ll just lie to you.

    “Islam obliges Muslims to lie…,” Darwish claimed. “There is sharia law that says lying is obligatory if the purpose is obligatory….It’s a daily thing in Arab media to slander Israel, to lie about Israel, to lie about America.”

    At the conclusion of her speech, the audience gave her a standing ovation. “Yeah, hey, yeah!” yelled out Temple behind me.

    Arab Spring as Pan-Islamist Conspiracy

    Then the Christian Broadcasting Network’s Erick Stakelbeck — who was also hawking a book offering his supposed expert take on the Muslim world — spoke. His target? The Arab Spring.

    “Who has benefited from the Arab Spring? The Muslim Brotherhood, the Salafis [13], and Iran,” he said, somehow conflating three groups with very different sets of interests. It would also probably surprise the government in Tehran to know that the Arab Spring that threatens to topple their closest regional ally, Bashar Al-Assad, is to their benefit.

    “[Shia Muslim] ideology is they believe the Mahdi, the Islamic Messiah, disappeared down a well in the 9th century,” he said to laughter from crowd full of Biblical literalists who believe in talking snakes and men who can walk on water that apparently lacked a sense of irony. “I’m just the messenger here!”

    Tarring Administration Officials as Enemies of the State

    The last speaker was far-right kingpin Frank Gaffney, who was also selling a book. Gaffney, a former Reagan administration official, specializes in a particular brand of Islamophobia that involves spreading the fear of “sharia law” — the idea that Muslims will take hold of the legal system and force Americans to live under the dictates of the Quran.

    Thanking the “great heroes” who spoke before him, Gaffney launched into a tirade about “Muslim Brotherhood” infiltration in the United States. If you listen to Gaffney, who runs a think tank called the Center for Security Policy, the Muslim Brotherhood, a conservative political movement in the Islamic world, has total control over the thoughts and actions of prominent Muslims all over the United States.

    He pulled up a PowerPoint slide of Muslim organizations in the United States, and explained that “all” of the major Muslim organizations in the country are basically offshoots of the Brotherhood, and that they are all committed to “civilizational jihad.”

    He then pulled up the pictures of eight prominent Muslims who serve in or are near to the Obama administration. These people, Gaffney said, are “working to subvert our nation from within.” The one Gaffney focused on the most was Huma Abedin, an aide to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton against whom Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann famously led a witch hunt [14].

    Gaffney also fear-mongered about Rashad Hussein, Obama’s envoy to the Organization of Islamic Countries. Hussein, he warned, “has memorized every word of the Quran. My experience of [Islam] is that you kind of have to be into it to do it…So is this guy representing us to this dangerous group or this dangerous group to us?” For Gaffney, even knowledge of the Quran’s words is a national security threat.

    In the last part of his presentation, he warned attendees against trusting Grover Norquist (who happens to be married to a Muslim woman [15]). He bizarrely claimed that Norquist was intent on letting the “Muslim Brotherhood get access to people like George W. Bush,” and that Romney was in his sights next. (Gaffney’s claim against Norquist, whose Americans for Tax Reform is a well-funded, secular right-wing operation, got Gaffney barred from speaking at the Conservative Political Action Conference last year in Washington.)

    Gaffney closed his presentation with a quotation from Ronald Reagan. The choice of Reagan is actually quite ironic for a “pro-Israel” and anti-Muslim panel. After all, it was Reagan who allied with and funded jihadists [16] to battle the Soviet Union, and who once furiously demanded [17] to Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin that he stop bombing Arabs in South Lebanon.

    Advice to Bibi: Bomb Iran Now!

    The last panel I attended — “Israel, Iran, and the Future of Western Civilization” — brought the Values Voter Summit to its logical conclusion. First, attendees were told that Christians were under attack. Second, they were told that Muslims were the ones leading the attack. This panel was designed to get these evangelicals to the polls to vote out the man who, they are told, is standing by and letting it happen: Barack Obama.

    Boykin returned for this event, and he was joined by Kamal Saleem, another “ex-Muslim” convert to Christianity who has claimed that he was once trained to be an Islamic terrorist — a story that has not stood up to scrutiny [18].

    “The problem is grim while the American people are still sleeping about this,” warned Saleem in his broken English. “The infiltration has gone to the core of this nation.”

    Saleem told the audience that the Shia Islam philosophy followed by the leaders of Islam dictates to them that they must first “destroy the world” so that they can later “Islamisize” it. “These people are not looking to make a friendship,” he said of the world’s Muslims. “When our president bowed before them, he gave full permission to bow before Islam.”

    Boykin informed the crowd that Obama’s unwillingness to attack Iran is especially dangerous. “I believe that Iran has a nuclear weapon today, I think they have a weapon already,” he said, making a claim that not even the most hawkish of Israeli politicians have.

    At this point, the crowd was ready for blood. And Boykin did not disappoint. “They’ve had several of their leading scientists,” said Boykin of Iranian nuclear researchers,” for whatever reason blow up.” The crowd roared in laughter. “They’ve just had some bad, bad luck.” The crowd applauded rigorously.

    The reason why we should all applaud the deaths of Iranian scientists is simple, according to Boykin. “[Iranian leader Ahmedinijad] believes he has been called by Allah to usher in the reign of the Mahdi,” he said, explaining that Iran is not deterred by the threat of mutually assured destruction. “Every Iranian, every Shia, every Muslim that is killed in a return [nuclear] strike becomes a martyr and goes straight to heaven. That is his theology.”

    “If we come close to the November 6th election and it appears that there is a high probability that the current administration will return, I think [Israel has] to run a pre-election strike,” recommended Boykin. “That is the one secure way to assure [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu] has U.S. support for a strike.”

    That might just sound like a self-important former general talking to himself, until one considers that the Values Voter Summit kicked off the day before with a breakfast event featuring Michael Oren, Israel’s ambassador to the United States.

    But in recommending war with Iran, Boykin doesn’t have any illusions about the scope of the conflict. “It’s going to have impact globally. And it’s going to have impact globally because the Iranians will unleash a reign of terror not only on Israel itself from Hezbollah and South Lebanon, but they will unleash a reign of terror on America.”

    In Boykin’s mind, these are merely the consequences of God’s plan. (A common element of Christian evangelical theology is the requirement for a war known as Armageddon in the Middle East, and the existence of the state of Israel, before Jesus can return to earth.)

    “It is up to us as Christians, A, to pray for Israel, and B to stand with Israel if they are forced into this situation that they have to strike,” he instructed the crowd. “We need to pray for Israel, God bless you!”

    Rape Metaphor and a Gay Joke, as Attacks on Black Officials

    During the question-and-answer session, a number of attendees wanted to know more about how Muslims were supposedly infiltrating the U.S. government.

    Saleem alleged that a U.N. treaty that Obama was working to enforce to replace the constitution with sharia law. Under this new, purportedly Obama-enforced regime, “churches and synagogues will go down underground because now you’ll have to submit your sermons to the government.” The consequences of an Obama re-election, he said, would be to “lose this nation.”

    “We can lose our sovereignty,” he claimed.

    One questioner, an older woman, wanted to know how Americans can trust the words of any Muslim if they are instructed by their faith to lie.

    “It’s the Muslim Brotherhood that speaks for all Muslims in America,” replied Boykin. “Find the Muslim community, find the Imam and say if you’ll make statements condemning sharia…and then ask him, ‘Do you support Hamas?’ — then if he won’t answer that question…forget him — move on to the next one.”

    “But even in that regard they are obligated to lie about Hamas,” she began to reply.

    “If they will make a public statement saying, ‘We’ll condemn Hamas…’” Boykin interjected.

    This went on for a while until Saleem jumped back in. “There’s a very, very small formula, any Muslim that defend Islamic act, or like the senator (sic) from, you know, Minnesota, Ellison, yes — and he defended the action of the Egyptian this or this or that, this is what we need to watch.” (Rep. Keith Ellison, D-Minn., an African American, is the only Muslim member of Congress.)

    “Anyone who is defending the act of Islam you will know that he is radical,” Saleem continued, “because liberal Muslim will not defend the actions of Islam. That’s how you will know. There are those who are fruitful and those who are fruity!” The audience erupted in laughter at what seemed to be an anti-gay joke.

    Saleem had the chance to propose one more conspiracy theory at the very end of the panel. One questioner asked, if a President Romney expanded domestic drilling, could the United States could wean itself from dependence on oil from Muslim countries.

    “This president is holding us in headlock so we can be raped by Islamic nations,” said Saleem, offering the most brutal imagery yet of Barack Obama doing the bidding of his Muslim minions.

    Hate as a Hail Mary Pass

    It is difficult to imagine any other religious group facing the sort of rank hatred that Muslims faced at the Values Voters Summit and still getting the ringing endorsement of a major political candidate like Mitt Romney. Surely if the FRC was telling people to blacklist rabbis or that all Christians are deluded liars, Romney and Ryan would be running as far away from the event as possible.

    But for the religious right, the promotion of Islamophobia is its Hail Mary pass — one last ditch attempt to retain relevancy. The country is becoming increasingly tolerant and socially liberal, and one day soon Christian conservatives will no longer be able to turn out the votes in battleground states that wins pandering from Republican presidential candidates. For all of us who wish to live in a country where no group is demonized or hated for political points, that day couldn’t come soon enough.

    http://www.alternet.org/election-2012/romney-and-ryan-court-leaders-anti-muslim-hate-fest?paging=off

  378. Okay Bones your first piece was taken from left-wing political website and written by an ex-minister secular humanist. Why did ou post it? Because you thought it was really that good? I think you could write better than that. And it takes up so much space.

    But here goes, I’ll do a rebuttal.

  379. I’ll start of by saying I thought it was complete dribble, and his prejudice against the US and Christianity absolutely shone through every sentence. Basically, it was just a set hate job by a person who has rejected Christianity. The fact that you like this stuff shows me that you probably don’t have long to go yourself before you join him.

  380. “Throughout world history, some of the worst atrocities known to mankind were committed in the name of religion going all the way back to Christian bible’s Old Testament. ”

    He we go. Confronting the Muslim problem he wants to set up a platform to say that Christianity was vicious from the getgo. I could also point out that many of the worst atrocities had nothing to do with religion. But let’s go on.

    “There are instances of ancient Israelites following god’s command to kill every man, woman, child, slave, and animal in a kingdom simply because the vanquished failed to abandon their religion and follow the Israelites’ god. ”

    So now he picks the worst example from thousands of years ago. And notice Bones that you he thinks nothing of your God. He’s just the god of the religion of Jews. Remember that.

    “The idea of Holy War did not end with the Old Testament, and the practice of shedding blood for the Lord became the rallying cry for the Crusades that pitted Christians against Muslims throughout the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries in several Christian military campaigns.”

    Wait a minute. Countries whose entire populations were Catholics fought against the Muslims in the crusades. Do you think there was absolutely no justification for any of those campaigns? Really? Go study history. And the “practice of shedding blood for the Lord” – was a “rallying cry” for all of those campaigns? Just shedding blood for the sake of it? That sentence reduces every campaign to just a lust for shedding blood for the sake of it – or the sake of the Lord. I think both he and you need to study the crusades again – and not just from a Muslim or left-wing Christian hating perspective.

    “Most Christians are aware that their religion’s namesake, Jesus Christ, taught his followers to pursue peace, and it is likely they can recite verbatim his admonition that if one “lives by the sword, they will perish be the sword,” and yet Christian religious leaders have been some of the most outspoken advocates for war.”

    Is he and are you saying that Christians can never use a sword to defend their countries? Is there ever a time when a religious leader can give their blessing for people to take up the sword, or is he and are you Bones saying that because of that saying of Jesus, that it is NEVER right to take up a sword – not even to defend your baby son?
    If you think so, that’s fine. But your love of war history is quite strange.

    “America has avoided Holy Wars because the Founders kept a wall of separation between religion and the government, and one founder told Muslims America was not a Christian nation and had no enmity against Muslim laws or their religion. ”

    One founder? And why did he say that? And Bush, and Clinton and Obama would still say they have no enmity with Muslims. Clinton I don’t think had any enmity with Muslims but he bombed a Bin Laden factory. Hillary Clinton and many other people who had no particular enmity with Muslims but she was for the war in Afghanistan. btw, Obama is still killing people with drones.

    “All that changed with the terror attacks of 9/11, and despite statements by George W. Bush that America was not at war with Islam in Afghanistan and Iraq, he often referred to those conflicts as Crusades. ”

    A crusade meaning a crusade against terror. A mission, movement or whatever “crusade” against people terrorizing the US. We often use the word crusade. I could say Bones is on a crusade to attack fundamentalists – it doesn’t mean that Bones wants to wage war against Muslims.

    “For Muslims, it is hard not to view Bush’s imperialism as anything other than a war against their religion,”

    Muslims all over the world? He speaks for all Muslims now? Not just Islamic fundamentalists, but now he is saying that Bush is an imperialist? Why and imperialist? Do you see Bones the way this guy just keeps throwing up all the negative words he can?
    And what do “muslims” all think about Obama? Are they against HIS imperialist wars? or just Bushes? But Bush isn’t here – and they are still against Obama – screaming insults and death to him.

    “and after an American’s offensive video portraying the prophet Muhammad negatively, ”
    woah – from Bush’s imperialist war after 9/11 to this magic video???
    They forgot about comics in Europe?

    “they must feel put upon by a so-called Christian nation that openly mocks their religion in front of the entire world.”
    Wait a minute. The writer and Bones, try everyday to say that the US isn’t a Christian nation. But he says “THEY MUST FEEL”. Well, maybe the writer and Bones need to explain that ONE man’s youtube video does not mean a WHOLE CHRISTIAN NATION mocking in front of the whole world. What, are these people completely idiotic???? Is he saying that Muslims (he still hasn’t said whether he means every Muslim in the world yes) will for the next 100 years see one video on youtube from one country as meaning that the whole country and its religion are represented and joining in the mocking? Are they completely stupid??? Really?? So if ONE MAN in Thailand puts up an insulting video of Jesus on youtube, it would be normal for me as a Christian to feel that the nation of thailand and Buddhists everywhere are openly mocking me??
    Man, go tell that fool to go and explain to people what youtube is!!!!!
    Quick! don’t waste time writing articles – he now assumes Muslims are all idiots. go educate them!

    “At the Values Voter Summit last weekend, the Republican presidential ticket attached themselves to a religious hate fest that was contrived to demonize Muslims as liars and infiltrators, ”

    Not “hate fest” “demonize” I wasn’t there, but did he ask them if they all hate Muslims? If they hate them, at least they weren’t killing them. Do Muslims love Americans? Or hate them?

    He thinks he can read the minds of Muslims worldwide and know what they FEEL over a video. I don’t know if they hate, but when they should death to america, annihilate Israel it doesn’t sound like a love-in. But if Muslims can hate over a video and the use of the word “crusade”, would it be wrong for Americans to hate over people smashing planes into buildings? Or are Muslims the only ones who can always be justified in “feeling” hurt.

    “and called on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to strike Iran before November 6 to begin a 21st Century Holy War. ”

    That’s what they said did they? They said they wanted a Holy War, or is that another case of putting words in peoples mouths.

    “There is a concerted effort by Bush neo-conservatives serving as Willard Romney’s foreign policy advisors to entice Israel to strike Iran to begin what one Romney advisor calls “a very substantial war,” and their goal is not to stop Iran from developing a nuclear weapon, but to begin a Holy War between Christianity and Islam. ”

    Any references for that? Who said they aren’t interested in stopping the bomb? Who said they want a Holy War -world wide? Does he have any names and quotes? Or just dribble. Do we take his word for it.

    “There has been a persistent push in America by Islamophpobes to demean the Muslim faith, and without exception it is the purview of Christian conservatives and religious leaders.”

    There has been a consistent push by IslamoPHILES to praise Islam. Obama has been doing everything he can, and actually Bush many times called it a religion of peace and a great religion. But still they aren’t happy. There are some people stating that Islam is dangerous. They believe that. It’s a democracy. Ask religious leaders in Iran, and the Hamas people what they think of Judaism.

    “The current unrest aimed at America is being used by the Romney campaign to portray President Obama’s Mid-East policy as weak for not stopping the outrage caused by the anti-Islam video.”

    No, the outrage was that in spite of Obama apologizing and fawning, they are asking why Muslims are shouting we love Osama, and hating on Obama and the West. And they wonder why Obama didn’t protect the embassy. And why didn’t they? Clinton now says it was al Quida and planned and nothing to do with the video. How can they clamp down on the response to the video when that broke out in several countries? No, conservatives want to know why the embassy was unprotected and an ambassodor killed. Esp in a country given money by the US. People thought that Obama would make Muslims love the US again, and with Bush gone everything would be great. Obama even got a nobel peace prize. But now we don’t see peace, and we can’t believe that’s all because of a third rate video made by a punk on youtube.

    Okay, I’ll get to the rest later. But the writer is writing to the converted at that website. And they lap it up no doubt as you did Bones.

  381. No I can’t be bothered – the post is just too long and full of the same kind of drivel and false accusations and hate speech.

    Bones, instead of copying and pasting such a long article, why don’t you just write stuff yourself.

    Do you think because it was an article on a website that it’s proof? Gospel truth? Was on the internet so it must be true?
    You think it proves your point because it’s on a “legitimate” website?

    No, it’s just drivel written by an ex-minister who hates evangelicals and conservatives. Pretty immature stuff trying to use words and insinuations while ignoring facts.

    You could do much better. Next time just put the link and give a summary.

  382. Good going Q. You made some great points in your rebuttal. Don’t expect Bones to read it though. He’d be way too busy getting his jollies scouring the interwebs for other Christ-hating/Muslim-lovin’ sites to bludgeon us with. Scumbag!

  383. Roundhouse, you obviously havent got to the part in the Bible where it says he who calls his brother a fool is liable to the flames of Hell.

    Let me know when you are about to die, I’ll give you some marshmallows.

  384. @wazza

    The only thing that sends someone to hell is rejecting Jesus. Or haven’t you gotten to that part yet?

  385. Both Roundhouse and Steve seem to be advancing the same argument about Psalm 137 :

    he line in Psalm 137 that has Bones all trembling with spittle-flecked rage was NOT, I repeat NOT, written by God or commanded by God. It was David prophesying of the future destruction of Babylon, using descriptive language and metaphor to describe how the violence that Babylon had inflicted upon the people of God would come back upon them.

    So now youre claiming that you can tell which bits of the Bible are inspired by God and which arent. And you can also tell when the passages that appear to be literal, are actually metaphors.

    Aside from the beauty of the metaphor ” Blessed is the one who grabs your little children and smashes them against a rock.”, how is it that you can judge which passages in the Bible are inspired and which uninspired?

    And by what authority do you make that judgment?

  386. @wazza

    “So now youre claiming that you can tell which bits of the Bible are inspired by God and which arent. And you can also tell when the passages that appear to be literal, are actually metaphors.”

    Actually, I am.

  387. @wazza

    “On what authority, or by what standard?”

    On God’s authority, given to me through His Holy Spirit. You mean, you don’t know how to rightly divide the word of truth? Wow. Actually, I’m not surprised. You have always shown a distinct lack in understanding what the bible really says.

  388. Wazza,
    “So now youre claiming that you can tell which bits of the Bible are inspired by God and which arent. And you can also tell when the passages that appear to be literal, are actually metaphors.”

    And you’re saying you don’t know the difference?

    What I produced was other passages which confirm that God was planning to destroy Babylon and the clear historical evidence that it no longer exists.

    Did you require more evidence, or do you think you could find it for yourself since it is rather obvious.

  389. So you think that if you provide other passages about the destruction of Babylon, and that it no longer exists, then that proves the passage is metaphorical?

    Is it that obvious, because I really cant see it?

    You will have to spell it out for me. Why is it a metaphor for the destruction of Babylon to say that you are blessed to bash their babies against the rocks?

  390. A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes something by asserting it is the same as something else.

    Such as “All the worlds a stage”. The world isnt literally a stage, but there is a point of comparison.

    So you are saying that David was trying to say something about the destruction of Babylon, by saying it was like the joy you get when bashing babies heads against rocks.

    I dont quite get the point he was trying to make.

  391. Well Roundhouse didnt know it. He said “the line in Psalm 137 that has Bones all trembling with spittle-flecked rage was NOT, I repeat NOT, written by God or commanded by God.”

    Maybe he hasnt gotten up to the part where it says all scripture is inspired by God. Or maybe he has and the Holy Spirit told him that it was only meant to be taken metaphorically.

  392. Well, you’re the one who pairs me off with Roundhouse. I suggest you treat us as separate so that you don’t look so silly.

  393. @ Roundhouse

    “On God’s authority, given to me through His Holy Spirit. You mean, you don’t know how to rightly divide the word of truth? Wow. Actually, I’m not surprised. You have always shown a distinct lack in understanding what the bible really says.”

    yet before we had this

    “That’s a bit like asking what parts of the bible have I read. I can’t tell you by chapter and verse,”

    When you actually finish reading the Bible let me know then you can point out my obvious errors.

    That’s if you could be bothered of course, given the amount of time you’ve spent studying the Koran.

    @ Wazza

    “Roundhouse, you obviously haven’t got to the part in the Bible where it says he who calls his brother a fool is liable to the flames of Hell.”

    Just forgive him dude. He probably hasn’t read that bit,

  394. Ok, then can you explain the metaphor for me?

    I dont see how you came to the conclusion it was metaphorical.

    Did the Holy Spirit tell you?

    If it is metaphorical, I dont understand the point of using the imagery of bashing babies heads against rocks. Is it supposed to be a metaphor for the destruction of Babylon? If so, why use the image of a baby being killed – arent babies supposed to be innocent and helpless?

  395. @wazza

    “Maybe he hasnt gotten up to the part where it says all scripture is inspired by God.”

    Inspired means stimulate, motivate, encourage, move or stir. And in the biblical sense it means “God-breathed”. Do you see the words “dictated to” anywhere in the list? Do you think that God held the ink-dipped reed moving David’s hand while he sat there watching? The bible was not written by the means of spirit-writing. It was inspired by God, not dictated by Him, meaning that the writers had some input into what they wrote. Of course, if you knew how to understand the bible you would already know that

  396. “You have always shown a distinct lack in understanding what the bible really says.”

    How do you know that if you havent read the whole Bible?

    Maybe I was talking about a bit of it that you havent read.

  397. “It was inspired by God, not dictated by Him, meaning that the writers had some input into what they wrote. Of course, if you knew how to understand the bible you would already know that”

    Roundhouse I agree with that.

  398. You’re waffling, wazza. Homing in on a target misses the point of what the passage is saying as much as the error you perceive.

    David’s is a song, and a prayer for vengeance over what happened to Jerusalem, including Edom’s part in it’s demise. You have to take the whole in context, not just the final line.

    Psalms 137
    7 Remember, O LORD, against the sons of Edom The day of Jerusalem, Who said, “Raze it, raze it, To its very foundation!”
    8 O daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed, Happy the one who repays you as you have served us!
    9 Happy the one who takes and dashes Your little ones against the rock!

    A prayer, a cry, a prophecy on more than one count, for what did happen to literal Babylon, and what will happen to spiritual babylon, according to Revelation.

    Saying it is a metaphor doesn’t do it justice, and falls short of what David is actually saying. Remember, at least, that David couldn’t have been there. It was probably a common theme he adapted.

    Of course, these days we know that vengeance belong to the Lord, don we?

  399. By the way, it wasn’t the Jews who overthrew Babylon, was it? A cruel nation crushed them. Under the Old Testament, God always empowered other nations, even enemy nations to Israel, to take vengeance on those who have acted unjustly, including, at times, against Israel itself.

  400. @wazza

    Yes, I can, and so can you. It’s not difficult. The Holy Spirit reveals things to us, but also causes us to question things when they don’t seem “kosher”. You get that “check in the spirit” when something isn’t right. Why do you think Paul wrote that we must rightly divide the word of truth? Coz he liked the sound of his own voice? No. Because he knew that in the wrong hands, or taken out of context, scripture can be very dangerous. Having an understanding of how to rightly divide the word is crucial. And one instance where rightly dividing it is crucial is when we find inconsistencies or contradictions. If in one place it says that God killed such and such, or orders the massacre of children, yet in another it says that God is light and there is no darkness in Him, and that He does not create or allow evil, then we can come to one of only two conclusions – God is a psychotic schizophrenic, or something else is happening. So what is going on then? The bible was written in a time and a culture so foreign to our own. It was written by 40 or so different people over a period of 2000 years. It contains concepts, ideas and writing styles that differ greatly to what we understand today. It contains over 200 figures of speech. It was written in an ancient language, in ancient times, and by people with ancient understandings of who God is, and who the devil is. Just like other civilisations of old, the ancient Jews thought that everything good and everything bad came from God. They only knew Satan as an adversary, or as an angel doing God’s bidding. That why Jesus came to reveal who His Father was, but also who Satan was. They attributed everything they couldn’t understand to God. A massive earthquake? God did it. A volcano? God. That is why people who are ignorant of correct bible interpretation always get it so wrong. They read the literal text, and build doctrines on it. Or in yours and Bone’s case, they search scripture for any reference to a sadistic God, and then crow like baboons on heat when they find it. We cannot just say “all scripture is God-breathed, therefore God wants us to kill babies”. That’s lunacy. We must weigh every single word and every single sentence by what the rest of scripture says, and rely upon the Holy Spirit to enlighten us or cause us to dig deeper to find the truth within it.

    But of course, you knew all of this already, didn’t you?

  401. @wazza

    “How do you know that if you havent read the whole Bible?”

    I never said I haven’t read the whole bible. That’s a fantasy construct by Bones. I certainly haven’t read it starting from Genesis 1 and finishing at Revelation 22. The bible isn’t a novel. But I study it daily. Whether I have read every single word and letter in it is immaterial. But it appears I know so much more about it than you and Bones.

  402. “Or in yours and Bone’s case, they search scripture for any reference to a sadistic God, and then crow like baboons on heat when they find it. ”

    I don’t believe that God is sadistic. God is like Jesus His perfect revelation.

  403. @Bones

    “I don’t believe that God is sadistic. God is like Jesus His perfect revelation.”

    So why have you spent many, many hours and thousands of words trying to prove He is?

  404. “But of course, you knew all of this already, didn’t you?”

    Yes of course I did. Did you really think a Liberal Christian has no understanding of ancient world-views and how that affects scripture? You dont think I already knew about the contradictions in the Bible and how they are dealt with? Or the importance of context in understanding the scriptures?

    Do you really think we are trying to prove that God is sadistic? Amazing that you have supernatural powers in rightly dividing the word of God, but cant understand a simple argument on a blog.

    So you say “in the wrong hands, or taken out of context, scripture can be very dangerous.” Yet you think you can just read the first few books of the Koran and a few other bits and pieces (guided by hate sites no doubt) and correctly interpret the Muslim scriptures?

    What would you say if an Atheist read the first book of the Bible, got bored and then read a few verses at random? He or she might also be shocked and depressed by what they read. Would they have a reasonable and fair understanding of the Christian scriptures?

  405. @wazza

    “Do you really think we are trying to prove that God is sadistic?”

    Absolutely I do. Maybe not you to as big an extent as Bones, who seems obsessed in his mission to paint God as sadistic liar, but certainly you both take great pains in finding scriptures that show God in a bad light and spend hours pointing them out to us.

    “Yet you think you can just read the first few books of the Koran and a few other bits and pieces (guided by hate sites no doubt) and correctly interpret the Muslim scriptures?”

    Yes, actually. Unlike the bible, that has the one divine theme running throughout (the redemption of mankind through Jesus), the Koran is a book written by man, with no divine guidance (unless you count Satan). What the Koran says, it means, So, if I open it and read “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]… but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah”, then that’s what it means.

    “What would you say if an Atheist read the first book of the Bible, got bored and then read a few verses at random? He or she might also be shocked and depressed by what they read. Would they have a reasonable and fair understanding of the Christian scriptures?

    Yes, they might be shocked, and, no, they certainly wouldn’t have a fair and reasonable understanding. That’s why Paul exhorted Timothy, and by extension, us, to rightly divide the word of truth. Because it can be taken the wrong way by not understanding all of those things such as historical, cultural and linguistic context that I mentioned in my post above.

    But why are you comparing the bible with the Koran anyway? Are you saying they have the same spiritual