The Rabbi-proof fence

As we move into the season of Advent and remember the birth of the one who broke down barriers, between God and Man, between Jew and Gentile, between leaders and the lead – there is surely no greater sign of the failure of humanity to take His message to heart than the building of a bloody great wall in the town of His birth.

Israel’s separation barrier chokes homes and businesses


386 thoughts on “The Rabbi-proof fence

  1. Needing to put up a security barrier is surely one of the great shames facing the region. But why was it erected? To protect Israeli citizens from a spate of suicide bombings and atrocities which started in 2000, only diminished once the measures were taken. Now they only hurl rockets and missiles from Gaza!

    Successive bombings at Sbarro, the Hebrew University, Carmel market, in cafés, on buses, attacks on civilians by religious fanatics driving bulldozers and the like, made it necessary to step up security, mainly because of the openness to attack when there were no barriers.

    It may not be a wonderful solution, and there are may factors involved which have exacerbated the situation, but there can be no doubt that the lethal attacks on Israeli citizens had to be dealt with one way or another. No attacks, no fence.

    An interesting fact which comes out of all of this, and is hinted at in the post and in the link, is the illusion given that there is a 700 km wall of 25 foot high concrete surrounding the West Bank.

    In fact, the higher concrete structure is very short in comparison to the greater part of the fence, which is made of wire mounted on a very low concrete base. You rarely see pictures of this fence. There is more propaganda value in pictures of a high concrete wall, even i it is a very small percentage of the whole barrier.

    In fact, the article in the link calls the entire structure a wall. It isn’t. It is a fence or barrier.

    ‘Wall’ does sound much more discomforting, though, doesn’t it, than ‘security fence’?

  2. Is it much better if its a fence than a concrete wall? I guess its a little better because people can see where they are excluded from.

    The politically-correct term is “barrier”.

    The barrier is for 90% a fence with vehicle-barrier trenches surrounded by an on-average 60 metres (200 ft) wide exclusion area, and 10% of the barrier is an 8 metres (26 ft)-tall concrete wall.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier

  3. Okay, forget it. Don’t bother answering.

    I see your sentiment. I agree to that it would be great if there never had to be walls built.

    I’ll go pray for the peace of Jerusalem instead of arguing about it.

  4. A wire fence is much easier to remove than a concrete wall.

    Wire represents a transparent state of mind which welcomes change, concrete the utter rejection of a culture of abuse.

    If the militants would like to make some guarantees that Israeli citizens are safe they may be able to get over the obstacles to their freedom of movement.

    The Israelis don’t see the barrier so much as keeping the Palestinians in as keeping terrorists out.

    How would you stop suicide bombers entering your home, wazza?

  5. By the way, if you look at the actual Israeli plans for the barrier you will see that the actual wall sections amount to far less than 10% of the whole structure.

    The real barrier is the mentality that the Jewish State shouldn’t exist, but mental barriers are far more difficult to remove than material fences, and physical walls can never come down until the mental and emotional barriers are deconstructed.

    The barriers are the manifestation of the spirit behind the intifada.

    Militants must take responsibility for this. The may not have erected the barriers physically, but they certainly put them up politically and socially.

  6. Well Israel did support Hamas against Fatah in a cunning plan to destabilise the PLO.. I figure that plan backfired on them. funny that.

  7. What would be the difference between the aims of the PLO, Fatah and Hamas, do you think, and what has it to do with the barrier?

    The PLO were terrorists, as were Fatah, and now Hamas. All from the same stock with the same aim – the end of Israel, which, ironically, none acknowledge as existing as a State.

    Perhaps Israel saw Hamas, at one stage, as a lesser evil, and took the risk.

    Or, in supporting one against the other, it allowed either Fatah or Hamas to seize control at the expense of a large number of Israel’s enemies, which would be a savvy, if severe, political and military ploy, saving countless Israeli lives at the cost of a Hamas coup which took out the majority of key Fatah players.

    Regardless, had they left Fatah in control there would have been the same degree of aggression toward the Israeli civilian community.

    I suspect you’ll now reintroduce some circular points which completely evade why the fence had to go up in the first place.

  8. It seems you’re changing the subject, both of you.

    Does this mean that you accept that israel was wise to put up the fence to defend its population from suicide bombers, and that you also concede that the fence is mainly wire and not 25 foot high concrete walls?

    I think it’s perfectly acceptable to criticise Israel. They have done some things wrong, as I said at 7.13 am November 13 2012, ‘it may not be a wonderful solution, and there are may factors involved which have exacerbated the situation’, and it is fair comment to say they have made mistakes in the heat of what is effectively a civil war, but the post above and its link are pretending they have built a 25 foot high concrete wall 700 km long around the West Bank, which is nonsense, and makes claims which are unfounded.

    The barrier is not there merely to confine Palestinians but, predominantly, to protect Israelis.

    If the militants promise to desist, and act on their promise there will be an excellent reason to pull down the wire fence and resume freedom of passage.

    Simple really. Always has been. Ever since the UN granted Israel nationhood, a blood-stained 64 years ago.

  9. The PLO were terrorists, as were Fatah, and now Hamas. All from the same stock with the same aim – the end of Israel, which, ironically, none acknowledge as existing as a State.

    WRONG!!!

    The Israelis encouraged Hamas as a way to divide the Palestinian leadership. They tried to divide the Palestinian Nationals who were secular through the use of Islamic extremists. By doing so they have helped unleash misery on themselves.

    On November 15, 1988, in the text of its Declaration of Independence, the PLO affirmed for the first time that the historic Partition Resolution of 1947, (UNGA Res. 181) was part of valid international law, thus accepting that Israel came into being lawfully. Indeed, the Declaration of Independence specifically noted the factual truth that the Partition Resolution provided for ‘two states, one Arab and one Jewish.’

    In fact in 1993 Arafat (how did he die btw?) penned the following:

    Yasser Arafat, the late PLO Chairman and leader of Fatah, wrote in a Sep. 9, 1993 letter to former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin prior to the signing of the 1993 Oslo Declaration of Principles:
    “The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

    The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

    The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

    The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators

    In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel’s right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.”

    http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000393

    But Israel can do no wrong!!!

  10. It seems from what I read, that the barrier in Bethlehem is mostly brick wall – not that it matters that much whether it is wire or brick.

    Bethlehem is less than 6 miles from Jerusalem but due to the wall its another world away. It takes a month to send a postcard to Jerusalem. The Christians have mostly left Bethlehem because its become too hard to live there.

    Will a wall reduce terrorism? Maybe the US should have built a wall around New York instead of having a war on terror. I can imagine a motivated terrorist group, planning for a year – getting people invoived in a terrorist cell, financing the operation – making bombs and using disguises etc. Then on the day they try to carry out the operation, they are blocked by a fence. “Drat, my dastardly plan has been foiled again!”

    For some reason the fence dosent follow the agreed border between the Jewish and Arab states. It encloses extra land.

    Israel will always have attacks by terrorists to justify its actions. If it ever runs out it’s shown that it can create a few itself.

  11. What happened to Yitzhak Rabin again?

    The assassination of Israeli Prime Minister and Defense Minister Yitzhak Rabin was the culmination of Israeli right-wing dissent over the Oslo peace process.

    Rallies, organized partially by Likud, became increasingly extreme in tone. Likud leader (and future Prime Minister) Benjamin Netanyahu accused Rabin’s government of being “removed from Jewish tradition … and Jewish values.” Netanyahu addressed protesters of the Oslo movement at rallies where posters portrayed Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform or being the target by in the cross-hairs of a sniper. Rabin accused Netanyahu of provoking violence, a charge which Netanyahu strenuously denied.

    And of course Netanyahu is currently PM.

    So you can advocate murder of your own citizens if they don’t fit your political aims.

    There’s a lesson for anyone who wants peace.

    Sounds like that Democrat politician, Gabrielle Giffords, who was in an ad with crosshairs on her electorate. What happened to her again? That’s right someone shot her in the head.

    What is it with right wing politicians putting crosshairs on their opponents?

    And why do they act all innocent when someone actually shoots them?

  12. If you believe that ‘crosshair’ tripe you’ll believe anything, Bones. Very revealing! The guy who shot her was a nutter. Even the (rest of) the left no longer pursue that cobblers!

    wazza,
    Will a wall reduce terrorism?

    Already has.

    Now they launch Iranian and Syrian supplied rockets out of Gaza.

    And the NY claim you made is ludicrous.

    You’ve been reading too much Chirpy and Ian!

    I’ll leave you to your anti-Israel conspiracy theories!

    ‘Crosshairs’!

  13. “Have you murdered and also inherited? (Elijah to King Ahab in I Kings 21:19)

    Yep!

    On October 5, 1995, as the Knesset was meeting to ratify the second Oslo agreement, thirty thousand Greater Israel zealots, Likud Party supporters, militant West Bank settlers, and right-wing nationalists rallied in Jerusalem’s Zion Square. For months, certain ultra-Orthodox rabbis and scholars had been suggesting that, because Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was willing to consider territorial concessions in negotiations with the Palestinians, it would be permissible, even obligatory, to kill him. In Zion Square, protesters carried pictures of Rabin, doctored to show him in Nazi uniform or with crosshairs over his face. The crowd chanted “Rabin boged!”—“Rabin is a traitor!”—and, again and again, “Death to Rabin!” From a balcony, prominent opposition politicians, including Benjamin Netanyahu, looked on benevolently and uttered no rebukes. A month later, at another, larger rally, this one for peace, Rabin was assassinated.

    In 1995 in Jerusalem, the connection between talk and action was direct and unmistakable. The killer, Yigal Amir, a student of Jewish law, was an activist of the organized religious right. He was neither delusional nor incoherent. “I did this to stop the peace process,” he explained at a court hearing. “We need to be coldhearted.” He acted with a clear political purpose, one that he shared with much of the mainstream religious and secular right. Within six months, Netanyahu was Prime Minister; Rabin’s widow, Leah, and many other Israelis never forgave him for what they saw as his cynical tolerance of the extremist stew that had nurtured the murderer.

    Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/01/24/110124taco_talk_hertzberg#ixzz2CCgBn7sW

  14. “i love people, not countries.”

    I love the people in Israel, and pray that those who pray for her destruction, won’t get their prayers answered.

    Peace.

    And glad to see you love people.
    Look forward to receiving some of it.

  15. Interesting that you love a country that accepts gay marriage.

    But hey your country right or wrong hey.

    What other countries do you love?

  16. Why not just try walking in love?

    It’s not about Israelis, Fatah or Hamas. Each one of us needs Christ, regardless of whether we put up walls, fences, barriers or whatever.

    You want people to stop praying for Israel, and stop loving them, then expect them to only love Hamas, or Fatah, or the PLO.

    If we took as much time to put up some of the things they have done, said or accused Israel of, we wouldn’t have enough time to read and digest it all.

    That’s why I try to avoid that kind of tit-for-tat pointlessness.

    The main issue is each individual’s soul.

    There are Israelis who resist Christ, and there are Palestinians.

    Thankfully there are some, a few, Christians amongst them all, but those who resist Christ, regardless of their politics, beliefs, tolerance level, or militance, need to be reached with the gospel, and they need our prayers if we are not there, and prayer for labourers to go into that harvest.

    Perhaps, since you have such a vehemence for the unsavoury side of things, you’d like to volunteer.

  17. Meanwhile, thank God the Israelis have seen fit to put up a barrier to keep a few more people alive, including would-be suicide bombers, for the day you arrive with the gospel message!

  18. what’s up steve. Can’t u even criticise Israel when it kills its own. Sounds familiar. The prophets themselves had something to say about that, and jesus. But its a bit too sensitive for you.

  19. “Interesting that you love a country that accepts gay marriage.
    But hey your country right or wrong hey.”

    i am totally opposed to gay marriage. That’s right. But I don’t want gays in Israel getting blown up by those who are bent on the destruction of Israel.

    “What other countries do you love?”
    Do you want a list?

    “I’m working on being tolerant of the intolerant.
    It’s not going so well.”

    Then pray.

  20. “Hamas official Khalil al-Haya eulogized the commander and threatened Israel.
    “The battle between us and the occupation is open and it will end only with the liberation of Palestine and Jerusalem,” he said.
    Thousands of angry Gazans chanted “Retaliation” and “We want you to hit Tel Aviv tonight.”

    This is not academic. Evil forces are raging right now.

  21. But, Am I wrong
    To give my love
    To a bi-state land?

    Am I wrong
    To try to hold on
    To the best thing
    That I ever had?

  22. I think most Israelis dream of the day when they can live at peace with their neighbours.

    Thing is, do the neighbours have the same vision?

    If I had a criticism of Israel’s military tactics it would involve the damage to civilians when they have a military strike, such as the one yesterday, which took out the Hamas leader, after four days involving the launch of 110 rockets into Israel provocation.

    Unfortunately Hamas uses civilian sites to launch missiles, so how do you stop them without involving civilians?

    Secondly, Hamas considers civilians to be the target, as seen today with the deaths of three Israeli citizens from rocket fire. Everything and everyone is a military target to Hamas if they are in Israel. There is no distinction.

    Yet we, rightly, make a distinction for Israel’s military involvement.

  23. I think most Israelis dream of the day when they can live at peace with their neighbours.

    Well Yitzhak Rabin did.

    What happened to him again?

    The victim of a Jewish fatwah for daring to cede land to the Palestinians.

    Maybe he should have built a wall around the right wingers.

    For self defence of course.

    Blessed are the peacemakers, for you are traitors, deserving of death.

  24. I’m more critical of blaming Israel for everything that’s wrong with the Middle East, wazza.

    And of the cynically cyclical nature being displayed here, and insisting on having to take sides, the us vs them mentality, so, then, the sectarian nature of some commentators.

    I said there is something wrong called sin in everyone, and we all need Christ.

    I challenged you to view it from this perspective and do something about it, such as pray for Israel and the rest, or, better still, go and preach the gospel to them all.

  25. The danger here is of lumping all Israelis into one basket and missing the very important point that they are a democratic secular society with every point of view and political perspective, from left to right and in-between that we have.

    The difference is that, unlike Australians, Israelis have to have one hand on their sword and one on their shearing hook, because they are in a constant state of defence from predatory forces from non-secular, anti-democratic neighbours, some of whom see Israel as enemies politically, religiously and morally.

    In fact Israel is the only truly democratic secular society in the Middle East, and very cosmopolitan, although some quarters of Jerusalem, understandably, could be seen as more religious than the rest of the nation.

    So when I se you write about Israel and Israelis with such an intolerant attitude I wonder if you’ve ever seen more of Israel than an Islamo-Palestinian inspired propaganda choir sheet.

  26. So you are more critical, and think it is a worse sin for someone to blame Israel for everything wrong with the Middle-east…

    … than to actually commit a terrorist act for the purposes of blaming it on the other side.

  27. Is this an attempt at an argument, or a cry for a solution?

    If it’s just an argument, you win. I win. No one wins.

    It’s the argument that’s the problem.

  28. “Yet we, rightly, make a distinction for Israel’s military involvement.”

    So what are they supposed to do? It’s almost impossible to engage your enemy with civilian casualties – when they are imbedded among them.

    So, what do you do? If Israel -or the US can never try to take out a terrorist or enemy soldier if there’s a possibility of civilian casualties, then they’ll never be able to take out a terrorist!
    But they just have to take the attacks?

    All my life I’ve seen pictures of Palestinian civilians killed or injured.
    That’s what always makes the news.

    The only time you get front page news is when a civilian gets killed who was near someone targeted by the Israelis. What precedes that hardly gets a mention. And it’s probably just because the journalists are people like Wazza and Bones.

    Send the Palestinians to Saudi Arabia, and Dubai. They seem to have plenty of buildings and money. Don’t they want to see their brothers having good living conditions?

    Answer – No, they could care less. Ask Palestinian refugess how they get on in other Muslim countries.

    Muslims (and some liberal Christians) hate Israel.

    Once you simply understand that everything makes sense.

    Muslims, liberal Christians, and Satan.

    I used to think this was a gray area, but it’s really black and white.

    Hamas, and others should stop attacking Israel. Iran and other people should stop denying the holocaust and threatening the extinction of Israel. And terrorists should stop blowing people up.

    Simple. And let the people of Israel (of different races and religions) get on with their democracy and producing great products and ideas)

    Oh, and before the liberals start frothing at the mouth – the US (yes led by Obama, and Hillary………………think about THAT liberals!!)

    has defended the right of Israel to fight back against the continual rocket attacks.

    So, even Obama realizes Israel is being attacked.
    So the people here must be uber lft wing radicals??

    Probably went to Uni in the 70’s….?

    That would explain it. 70’s time warp!

    Guys…the Berlin Wall came down. Instead of Mao’s little red book the Chinese have discovered the delights of capitalism and and clutching airline tickets instead.

    Your professors were wrong guys… wake up!

  29. Meanwhile in Syria, the Muslim brotherhood are killing Christians.

    Some of you have decided to be on the dark side.

  30. Whats the problem with the argument, Steve?

    Planning and then carrying out a terrorist act for the sole purpose of blaming it on your enemies, is a dastardly act. In some ways it is worse than terrorism alone because it seeks to tarnish the opponent with the opprobrium rightly due to oneself.

    If you can’t bring yourself to criticise something as obviously despicable as this, how can you be taken seriously on any matter related to Israel?

  31. Just watched Netanyahu’s press conference.

    What a guy! Fantastic!

    Looks like in the last 24 hours everyone is behind Israel!

    Let’s pray for the protection of Israeli and Palestinian children, and the end of Hamas!. Just evil aren’t they!

  32. Netanyahu has Rabin’s blood on his hands. How different the attitude between you and Jesus and the prophets.

  33. Julia Gillard condemns the Hama rocket attacks by Hamas, and defends the right of Israel to defend itself.
    So does Obama.
    So do I and most sensible people.

    How about you Bones? After a hundred rocket attacks in a weeks. Over a thousand in a year? And then they hide around children.

    I retaliation if a child is hurt, Hamas and Bones condemn Israel.

    btw, that was a beautiful surgical strike on that ratbag in the car.

    Did you see it? Nice…

  34. Point to a post where I said Israel doesn’t have the right to defend herself.

    Sorry but just because you wank over Israel doesn’t mean that no one else overlooks its sins.

    Why was Rabin assassinated again?

    I remember the mid 90s and the spirit of optimism that finally the crisis in the Middle East might one day be over. Since Rabin no Israeli PM has seriously entertained peace talks. Why would they? They know the consequence.

    Even Livni has been disappointing. I had high hopes for her. But to achieve lasting power in Israel is to talk tough.

    As for that ratbag in the car, I, like God, don’t rejoice in the death of the wicked, even Netanyahu’s.

    You do.

  35. Just watched Netanyahu’s press conference.

    What a guy! Fantastic!

    Yeah what a guy. Brilliant. Incredible. Feel the man-love.

    Sorry to bring the tone down a bit but not only does he have Rabin’s blood on his hands but he’s a conman and liar who destroyed peace.

    The contents of a secretly recorded video threaten to gravely embarrass not only Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister but also the US administration of Barack Obama. The film was shot, apparently without Mr Netanyahu’s knowledge, nine years ago, when the government of Ariel Sharon had started reinvading the main cities of the West Bank to crush Palestinian resistance in the early stages of the second intifada. At the time Mr Netanyahu had taken a short break from politics but was soon to join Mr Sharon’s government as finance minister. On a visit to a home in the settlement of Ofra in the West Bank to pay condolences to the family of a man killed in a Palestinian shooting attack, he makes a series of unguarded admissions about his first period as prime minister, from 1996 to 1999. Seated on a sofa in the house, he tells the family that he deceived the US president of the time, Bill Clinton, into believing he was helping implement the Oslo accords, the US-sponsored peace process between Israel and the Palestinians, by making minor withdrawals from the West Bank while actually entrenching the occupation. He boasts that he thereby destroyed the Oslo process.
    He dismisses the US as “easily moved to the right direction” and calls high levels of popular American support for Israel “absurd”. He also suggests that, far from being defensive, Israel’s harsh military repression of the Palestinian uprising was designed chiefly to crush the Palestinian Authority led by Yasser Arafat so that it could be made more pliable for Israeli diktats. All of these claims have obvious parallels with the current situation, when Mr Netanyahu is again Israel’s prime minister facing off with a White House trying to draw him into a peace process that runs counter to his political agenda.
    As before, he has ostensibly made public concessions to the US administration – chiefly by agreeing in principle to the creation of a Palestinian state, consenting to indirect talks with the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah, and implementing a temporary freeze on settlement building. But he has also enlisted the powerful pro-Israel lobby to exert pressure on the White House, which appears to have relented on its most important stipulations.
    The contemptuous view of Washington Mr Netanyahu demonstrates in the film will confirm the suspicions of many observers – including Palestinian leaders – that his current professions of good faith should not be taken seriously. Critics have already pointed out that his gestures have been extracted only after heavy arm-twisting from the US administration. More significantly, he has so far avoided engaging meaningfully in the limited talks the White House is promoting with the Palestinians while the pace of settlement building in the West Bank has been barely affected by the 10-month freeze, due to end in September.
    In the meantime, planning officials have repeatedly approved large new housing projects in East Jerusalem and the West Bank that have undercut the negotiations and will make the establishment of a Palestinian state – viable or otherwise – far less likely. Writing in the liberal Haaretz newspaper, the columnist Gideon Levy called the video “outrageous”. He said it proved that Mr Netanyahu was a “con artist … who thinks that Washington is in his pocket and that he can pull the wool over its eyes”. He added that the prime minister had not reformed in the intervening period: “Such a crooked way of thinking does not change over the years.”

    Read more: http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-admits-on-video-he-deceived-us-to-destroy-oslo-accord#ixzz2CN1bS3KY

    What a guy.

    No wonder Obama doesn’t like him.

  36. “Point to a post where I said Israel doesn’t have the right to defend herself.”

    Can’t remember, but you seem to hate Israel so much that I am just wanting to hear you admit they have the right.

    “Sorry but just because you wank over Israel doesn’t mean that no one else overlooks its sins.”
    You been peeping through my windows again?
    Not saying Israel hasn’t sinned. Just that I support what they’re doing now. As do many sane people who believe in justice. They have been way too patient up till now.

    I remember the mid 90s …. yeah I remember decades of terrorist attacks on Israel. And I remember when Arafat was offered a great deal and rejected it. Remember that? I also remember reading about people calling for the death of Israel, and denying the holocust. And I remember some people saying the holocaust was good.

    I support Israel. It’s a shining light in the Middle East. Go there Bones. When you get some long service leave, go live in Israel and then some other countries and see how long your love affair with those who hate Israel lasts.

    “As for that ratbag in the car, I, like God, don’t rejoice in the death of the wicked, even Netanyahu’s.”
    You do.”

    “When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; they shout for joy when the wicked die”

    Oh, Bones, you spend 90% of your time hating on everyone, then suddenly come up with lovey dovey verses everytime you hear about some terrorist or all round bad guy dies.

    I’m sure you’ll shed a tear when Lucifer is bound, and start a blog in heaven attacking the injustice of God and the angels.

  37. From what I understand he was assassinate by a right wing extremist. Is there something I missed?

    And it was a crime. As Netanyahu said.
    “”The murder of Yitzhak Rabin was one of the worst crimes of the new age,”It certainly besmirches the annals of the state and of Zionism, This murder also obliges us to safeguard Israel’s democracy, to defend freedom of speech and to strongly reject all displays of violence,” he said.

    This was said on the recent 17th anniversary.

    So, you have some conspiracy theory? Let me guess, Netanyahu killed him while practicing for 9/11?

    Netanyahu is a hero, and it’s great that he’s there defending Israel.

    Did you listen to his press conference? He explained Israel’s position perfectly. And Obama is right behind him!!

    Obama!! You know, your second biggest man crush now that Arafat isn’t around.

  38. That’s the problem with conservatives like you. Pick a few verses to justify your own self righteousness and ignore those which condemn it. You smash gay marriage and those who have anything to do with it (oh and swearing) yet ignore verses like God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and the prophets and Jesus’s condemnation of Israel and their calls for her to repent. Just ignore whole books of the Bible,

    So has Israel repented?

    Is she any different from the corrupt unjust vessel the prophets railed against?

    Well look at her leaders.

    What happened to those who championed peace?

    Is Israel a light to the nations?

    Bullshit she is. Not now.

    What would Israel say to Jesus’s Sermon on the Mount?

    Blessed are the peacemakers?

    What happened to the man who almost brought about peace?

    Of course you would love to label me an antisemite when I’m actually continuing the prophet’s and Jesus’s call to repent. So you have to label them antisemitic as well (whereas the true antisemite, Ian, gets called a ‘man of God’). Go figure.

    No I don’t rejoice in the death of the wicked. I’ve read extensively on military history, especially on WWII. When reading accounts of Stalingrad, Dresden, the rape and battle of Berlin, the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki I have compassion for those caught up in it. I have compassion when I read of a German soldier’s experiences of losing his mates in combat.

    And the Russians were barbarians in their treatment of German women and the Allied bombings of Dresden were morally unjustified.

    And yes my parents lost brothers in action and POW camps.

    Does that mean I wanted them to win?

    Hell no.

    But they were human beings, like me. And I thank God I wasn’t born in Germany or Japan in the 20s.

    But then that must make me a soft leftie.

    Like Jesus.

    “When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; they shout for joy when the wicked die”

    So are you rejoicing that the paedophile homosexual Frank Houston is dead?

    When’s the party?

  39. And it was a crime. As Netanyahu said.
    “”The murder of Yitzhak Rabin was one of the worst crimes of the new age,”It certainly besmirches the annals of the state and of Zionism, This murder also obliges us to safeguard Israel’s democracy, to defend freedom of speech and to strongly reject all displays of violence,” he said.

    Yeah I read what that cynical bastard said.

    You obviously can’t read so I’ll post what I put up before.

    What happened to Yitzhak Rabin again?

    The assassination of Israeli Prime Minister and Defense Minister Yitzhak Rabin was the culmination of Israeli right-wing dissent over the Oslo peace process.

    Rallies, organized partially by Likud, became increasingly extreme in tone. Likud leader (and future Prime Minister) Benjamin Netanyahu accused Rabin’s government of being “removed from Jewish tradition … and Jewish values.” Netanyahu addressed protesters of the Oslo movement at rallies where posters portrayed Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform or being the target by in the cross-hairs of a sniper. Rabin accused Netanyahu of provoking violence, a charge which Netanyahu strenuously denied.

    And of course Netanyahu is currently PM.

    So you can advocate murder of your own citizens if they don’t fit your political aims.

    There’s a lesson for anyone who wants peace.

    “Have you murdered and also inherited? (Elijah to King Ahab in I Kings 21:19)

    Yep!

    On October 5, 1995, as the Knesset was meeting to ratify the second Oslo agreement, thirty thousand Greater Israel zealots, Likud Party supporters, militant West Bank settlers, and right-wing nationalists rallied in Jerusalem’s Zion Square. For months, certain ultra-Orthodox rabbis and scholars had been suggesting that, because Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was willing to consider territorial concessions in negotiations with the Palestinians, it would be permissible, even obligatory, to kill him. In Zion Square, protesters carried pictures of Rabin, doctored to show him in Nazi uniform or with crosshairs over his face. The crowd chanted “Rabin boged!”—“Rabin is a traitor!”—and, again and again, “Death to Rabin!” From a balcony, prominent opposition politicians, including Benjamin Netanyahu, looked on benevolently and uttered no rebukes. A month later, at another, larger rally, this one for peace, Rabin was assassinated.

    In 1995 in Jerusalem, the connection between talk and action was direct and unmistakable. The killer, Yigal Amir, a student of Jewish law, was an activist of the organized religious right. He was neither delusional nor incoherent. “I did this to stop the peace process,” he explained at a court hearing. “We need to be coldhearted.” He acted with a clear political purpose, one that he shared with much of the mainstream religious and secular right. Within six months, Netanyahu was Prime Minister; Rabin’s widow, Leah, and many other Israelis never forgave him for what they saw as his cynical tolerance of the extremist stew that had nurtured the murderer.

  40. Q have you considered joining CUFI :

    Dear Wazza,

    As you no doubt know, yesterday Israel launched Operation Pillar of Defense — a purely defensive operation designed to stop rocket fire from Gaza into southern Israel. And as you also know, too many voices in the media and across the country are focusing on Israel’s strikes while ignoring the context which necessitated them. This means that all of us must now become Israel’s ambassadors and explain to our family, friends and neighbors why Israel has the right — and the responsibility — to defend its citizens.

    Israel needs you. And you need the facts:
    You are invited to participate in an emergency conference call with David Siegel, Consul General of Israel in Los Angeles, about Operation Pillar of Defense. The call will be tomorrow, Friday, November 16th at 2:00 PM Eastern Time (1:00 PM Central, 12:00 PM Mountain, 11:00 AM Pacific). Click here to RSVP for tomorrow’s call.

    Israel needs you. And you need the facts:
    • In the week preceding the launch of yesterday’s operation, over 120 missiles were fired from Gaza into southern Israel.
    • Since the beginning of 2012, over 760 missiles have been fired from Gaza into Israel’s southern communities.
    • Since Israel launched this operation yesterday, an additional 245 missiles have been fired into Israel, killing three Israelis and injuring many more.
    • These missiles target Israeli civilians, and have forced over one million Israelis into bomb shelters.
    • In recent years, Hamas has acquired an arsenal of long range Fajr-5 missiles from Iran capable of hitting Tel Aviv, and now Israeli media outlets are reporting that two rockets have landed in the outskirts of Tel Aviv.
    • Operation Pillar of Defense is a limited operation targeting Hamas’ missile stockpiles and the Hamas terrorists responsible for firing them.

    Every nation on earth has the right to defend its citizens from attacks. Most nations would have taken action after one or two missiles were fired into their territory. Israel has once again exercised enormous restraint and waited until over 760 rockets had been fired into its territory before launching Operation Pillar of Defense.

    As always, Israel is targeting Hamas’ missiles and the terrorists who fire them while taking every reasonable precaution to avoid harming Palestinian civilians. By contrast, Hamas and its allies are specifically targeting Israeli civilians. There is no moral equivalence in this fight.

  41. Okay, your first post. Firstly, you don’t come across like an OT prophet I’m afraid to say.

    Second, I don’t get all happy about evil people dying or being killed. Even mass murderers. I feel sorry that they wasted their lives in the pursuit of evil.

    But as for you silly war comments…..

    There is a huge difference between a German soldier who loses his mate and Hitler. I’ve watched movies and documentaries about, and talked with soldiers who were our former enemies. But, If Hitler would have been killed in 1943 and as a result Germany surrended, yes I would have been happy. And if I met the guy who killed him I probably would shake his hands say thank you and buy him a beer.

    Do you see the difference?

    If you don’t I’ll give you another…..(man, sometimes it’s like talking to a 6 year old).

    I wasn’t happy when Houston died. Not at all.

    But if someone had molested and killed hundreds of boys and girls and was still at large and they were on their way to kill my children and somehow I prevented him from putting them in the car to kidnap them, and if by doing so he was killed, then yes, I’d be momentarily happy about it.

    Still don’t get the difference???

    Dr Evil gets zapped or shot into outer space just before he destroys the world with a laser beam…….the crowd in the cinema erupts with applause. Why???? Because the bad guy is finished!!!

    And yes, if you want to bring it back to the German soldier again….
    yes, if I was back in 1945 then people were pretty happy when the enemies were stopped (and that included some being killed) so that the war was finished and the boys could come home.

    I think you just like to argue bud.

    OH I can read…but as before, I got fed up with copy and paste after copy and paste but tried to read them all and refute them until they got weirder and weirder – culminating in the weirdest one of all which was the last straw.

    So, no, these days I don’t read all your long posts.

    But, what you are saying is that because Netanyahu opposed Rabin’s peace plan, and didn’t stop people from saying “Death to Rabin” that he is somehow responsible personally for the death of Rabin, and more than all of the terrorist activities that shock the world, it’s netanyahu’s actions that really enrage you the most and get you to don sackcloth and suddenly stop despising the Old Testament but decide you’re some kind of Old Testament prophet thundering for justice….?

    Okay…..

    Thousands of rockets can rain down on Israel and Prophet Bones is not moved. Christians can be slaughtered everywhere, and Prophet Bones doesn’t hear the word of the Lord.

    Wait? Israel defends itself and suddenly God’s man of the moment Prophet Bones, starts thundering against conservatives, and something that happened 17 years ago, and somehow that will end up with gay marriage or some preacher who sinned in Timbuktu or Bush or something right?

  42. And when it comes to Asia, I’ve been to the places you’ve read about and talked to the people there. And America bashing annoys the hell out of me.

    See, I can be tough and use rough language too.

  43. So, no, these days I don’t read all your long posts.

    That’s fine by me. When I read yours I usually wished I hadn’t.

    It really is just right wing propaganda which I could read from the right wing Likud’s website or the Republican Party platform. Very little to do with Jesus at all. In fact you ignore, excuse and belittle the death of Israel’s PM when some basic research would show how Netanyahu and his right wing friends used the atmosphere at the time.

    And of course you would know more than Rabin’s wife.

    Just keep reading those verses about gays. Forget all the calls for Israel to repent, and killing her own. Forget the prophets and Jesus.

    So maybe we should just ignore each other.

    Go to the other thread and tell the antisemite lunatic, Ian what a wonderful Man of God he is.

    Btw if someone tried to kill my kids and I killed them. I wouldn’t be rejoicing. I’d be relieved.

  44. Anyway, let’s pray for protection of the people of Israel after this latest assault on peace!

    Must be tough being the Prime Minister of Israel Be too soft and you risk your Israel’s destruction. Defend yourself and you risk the ire and condemnation of the neo-prophets (I mean uninformed western uber liberals)

    It’s a hard line. He needs wisdom.

  45. Here we go again. Grumpy old men jousting the air in an attempt to set up a sectarian debate.

    Bones, you’re more like a dog at a bone. You’ve thrown one up which is irrelevant to the original subject and your gnashing away at it so much you’ve actually made yourself angry at the bone! LOL!

    Wazza sets up chess-like game-plans for arguments wit all the moves worked for his perceived opponent as well as himself, then gets feisty when no one wants to play! LOL again!

    Meanwhile neither have taken a blind bit of notice what other people they consider to be contrary to their position have actually said.

    Very interesting! Left wing disputers at work!

  46. Yawn, that post was surprising Steve.

    Meanwhile neither have taken a blind bit of notice what other people they consider to be contrary to their position have actually said.

    Bahaha

    You must hate the Bible, Steve.

    You know the bits where Israel gets criticised.

    You must gloss over those bits.

    Bloody lefties.

  47. We used to have a dog like that! We’d give her a bone, and she’d have to growl and get really snarly at that bone as she tore into it, as if it were some captured rabbit in her grip.

    She’d throw it up in the air and pounce on it, hold it down, rage at it and start the process all over again, totally oblivious to the spectacle she was making of herself, totally guarding this bone from everyone else, even if no one was really interested in it, since it was covered with her teeth marks, slobber and drool.

    Hilarious!

    Cats are similar when they’ve captured a mouse. They don’t just eat the thing, they have to toy with it and control its destiny, release and hunt, chase and secure, until they finally bite its head off when they’ve had enough of it.

    Bones likes to throw pet hates into the mix in a similar fashion.

    Must be psychologically useful for something, I suppose!

  48. You must hate the Bible, Steve.

    No!

    You know the bits where Israel gets criticised.

    No!

    You must gloss over those bits.

    No!

    Now I know you don’t read anyone else’s stuff, only your own! Or, you may skim over it and select certain clips to maul, but you don’t actually get the context. If you did, you’d know how ridiculous some of your comments are.

    Still, if throwing the bone around makes you feel better at the end of the day, why not?

  49. I just remembered how our dog used to be in the middle of one of these bone-gouging, meat gnashing episodes, and suddenly realise we were nearby by and, without moving her head or teeth from the bone, look up with her big, round, Cocker Spaniel eyes, and realise someone was looking, wag her tiny stub of a tail coyly, and look so pathetically embarrassed at being caught in this secret word of bone-crunching!

    Then get back to it!

    Ha-ha!

    Thanks for the memories, Bones!

    LOL!

  50. btw, that was a beautiful surgical strike on that ratbag in the car.

    Did you see it? Nice…

    As i’m sure this was

    Gaza City: When he reached the blazing shell of his home, no one told Jihad Misharwi that his 11-month old son was dead. He had been at work at the BBC in Gaza City when his cousin called to tell him that his house had been hit in an Israeli air strike.

    Minutes later he arrived at the smoking ruins of his two-storey home in Zaitoun, close to the northern border with Israel, to find his wife, children and sister-in-law missing.

    “People were telling me everything was OK. I said, ‘Show them to me, show me my sons’,” Mr Misharwi said.

    He found Omar in the morgue at Shifa hospital. His sister-in-law had also been killed and his four-year-old son, Ali, injured.
    Omar had been with his mother, aunt and brother as they ran into the relative safety of their family home when the missile hit its entrance. He and his 19-year-old aunt, Hiba, were killed instantly.
    “What did my son do to deserve this?” Mr Misharwi asked his BBC Arabic colleagues in despair as they filmed him leaving the hospital on Wednesday evening, cradling his dead son.

    Standing in the blackened ruins of his home the next day, a few hours after burying Omar, Mr Misharwi asked the same question. As Israeli jets screeched overhead, followed by the inevitable thud of a missile hitting its target, Ali jumped into his father’s arms.

    Five of the 13 Palestinians killed in the first 24 hours of Israel’s Operation Pillar of Defence have been children. Yesterday, a two-year-old and a woman pregnant with twins were reported to have died in the campaign.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/what-did-my-son-do-to-deserve-this-20121116-29gks.html#ixzz2CNv7tub0

    Nice…

  51. I think I said, at least twice, that everyone needs Christ, we’re all sinners, whether Jew or Greek, Palestinian or Australian, and we all need to repent.

    I also said that if you want to really solve the problem, pray for Israel, Palestine, Gaza and everyone involved, or better still, go there yourself and dare to preach the gospel to them, because it’s the only thing which will change anything.

    Politics, discussion, us vs them, left vs right, walls, barriers, rockets, suicide bombers, anger, spite or argument is futile.

    The only thing which changes anything is repentance.

    There, I hope you can understand what I’m saying, since I’ve repeated it several times now.

  52. I’m pretty moderate….

    That was a joke..!

    And as for your posts – I meant the quoted ones. I’m more interested in peoples thoughts.

    “That’s fine by me. When I read yours I usually wished I hadn’t.”

    Me too. that’s why I never read over them. And why I give Greg permission to delete them. In fact, I’d almost beg him to!

    As for ignoring ..your posts are hard to ignore – esp when I feature as the villain in many of them.

    Shalom

  53. Again, Bones, if you want to add all the things which are terrible about war, go for it, and please don’t forget the three civilians killed by Hamas rockets yesterday.

    I said, earlier, that I am appalled at civilian casualties on either side.

    Doesn’t it strike you as obscene that Hamas targets are exclusively civilian? Their wayward rocket strikes are not specifically aimed at military targets in the way Israeli strikes are. That doesn’t disturb you?

    Why haven’t you mentioned one single Israeli casualty? Is it not convenient to your cause?

    What have you to say about the 110 rockets fired into Israel in the four days before they took out the Hamas leader?

    Are you saying Israel should do nothing? Appeal to the UN? Yeah, right! Ban Ki Moon is about as effective as deflated balloon.

    Why are you using me as your point of anger, when I have said what I have said?

    Is that what you need in life? Someone to aim your anger at?

    Go ahead, if it makes you feel better, but it’s just bouncing off, because you’re aiming it at the wrong guy!

  54. Steve, don’t think I’m going to sniff your crotch or be your bitch.

    LOL

    Awww..c’mon guys – circle around and lift tails..I think yo’ll find a scent you both recognise as friendly!

  55. All deaths are appalling. Israeli and Palestinian. That was a response to Q’s nice surgical strike. Yippee.

    I agree that Jesus is the only answer to this and by that I mean only forgiveness and reconciliation can bring about true peace.

    I’m actually suspicious of Syria’s role in this. Just a couple of days ago they fired rounds into Israel and Syrian tanks crossed onto the Golem Heights.

    Then you have the barrage of rockets from Gaza.
    Rumblings in Lebanon as well and I don’t think it’s the kebabs.

    Coincidence?

    Only thing is I’m not sure of Syria’s relationship with Hamas.

    It could be Assad is trying to deflect what is happening in Syria. And try to sure up some allies while his kingdom crumbles and drag Israel down with him.

    That wouldn’t surprise me at all.

    Why are you using me as your point of anger, when I have said what I have said?

    Is that what you need in life? Someone to aim your anger at?

    Why are you calling me a dog?

    Can you scratch my tummy?

    Btw my whole point of Rabin is that had he have stayed around long enough, there would not have been a need for a fence.

  56. For surgical strike, I was referring to the one on the car which looked very surgical to me on the video.

    I’m not happy about innocent civilian casualties. But I’ve don’t know of many wars when they were not any.

    “Btw my whole point of Rabin is that had he have stayed around long enough, there would not have been a need for a fence.”

    I’d say that if you honestly believe that if Rabin’s plan went ahead, that there would never have been any attacks on Israel that you are incredibly naive. Seriously. And I don’t think ANY serious political commentator would agree with you.

    You really underestimate the hatred towards Israel.

  57. I didn’t actually call you a dog. I said you reminded me of one. There is a difference, but whatever you want to be, go ahead, and no I am not going to scratch your itch! Scratch it yourself. I was just trying to calm you down, you old growler.

    There was too much froth flopping around the joint.

  58. Bone’s and wazza’s mates…

    Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion
    Hamas having decided that stoning girls to death is not brutal enough, has enacted a law legalizing crucifixion. Public decapitation for gays and rape victims wasn’t bad enough… Now they can look forward to being nailed to a cross and left hanging until they slowly suffocate to death. This will be happening, in modern Palestine. Would it be acceptable anywhere outside the middle-east?…
    ————————————–
    Hamas Enacts Islamic Laws, Including: Amputation, Crucifixion, Lashes

    Hamas members of the Palestinian Legislative Council in Gaza have approved a new bill “to implement Koranic punishments,” including hand amputation, crucifixion, corporal punishment and execution. Drinking, owning or producing wine is punished by 40 lashes, while drinking in public adds three months’ imprisonment. Several laws are directed against Hamas’s Palestinian rivals, including a law intended to inhibit non-Hamas negotiators by sentencing to death anyone who was “appointed to negotiate with a foreign government on a Palestinian issue and negotiated against Palestinians’ interest.”

    The following is the description as it appears today on the Al Arabiya website:

    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/12/24/62699.html

    Headline: Hamas approves law of punishment by lashes, amputating hands, crucifying, and execution – in order to implement the Islamic Sharia law. Hamas members of the Palestinian Legislative Council approved in its meeting in Gaza a new bill proposed by the Hamas who have a majority in the Legislative Council, whose purpose is “to implement Koranic punishments.”

    The newspaper Al Hayat of London reported on Dec. 24, 2008, that this step is seen as unprecedented, and has brought criticism and concern from human rights organizations in the Gaza Strip, especially as this law includes punishments by lashes, cutting off of hands, crucifixion, and execution… The language of the law proposes “primary and secondary” laws. Primary laws include: “Koranic laws, blood revenge, lashes, crucifixion, and execution …”

    The text stresses: “These punishments will not be canceled or pardoned … except if pardoned by the victim himself… Section 59 of the law establishes that “punishment of death will be enacted on any Palestinian who intentionally does one of the following: Raised a weapon against Palestine on behalf of the enemy during war, was appointed to negotiate with a foreign government on a Palestinian issue and negotiated against Palestinians’ interest, performed a hostile action against a foreign country in a way that endangers Palestine in war or in harming political relations, served a foreign army in time of war, advised or helped soldiers to enlist in this army, weakened the spirit or the force of resistance of the people, or spied against Palestine especially during war.”

    The punishment of lashes appears in many sections of the law. Section 84 states that: “Whoever drinks wine, owns or produces wine will be punished with 40 lashes if he is Muslim, and anyone who drinks wine, or angers another person [with wine], or causes him distress when drinking wine in a public place, or goes to a public place while drunk, will be punished with no less than 40 lashes and imprisonment for the minimum of three months.” [Al-Arabiya, Dec. 24, 2008]

  59. Bones,
    Everything’s black and white, isnt it Steve? If u criticise israel u must love hamas. Interesting logic that. Israel got what it wanted. It wanted a divided Plo tearing each other apart. Remember israel supported hamas. now theyve got something worse than arafat. religious extremists!

    I think you have been applying that logic only in reverse all along. What’s changed?

    You make it all sound so simple. I don’t think Israel can be blamed for the ay Hamas, Fatah or the PLO go about their work. They may have used it to divide themselves, but the blood-lust was already present.

    Do you think for one second that Fatah would have been any better, or that Hamas would not have displaced them anyway?

    What do you think of the sustained rocket fire into Israel? 165 rockets and counting launched into Israel during a supposed cease-fire!

    So now, after rockets came near Tel Aviv and Jerusalem the Israelis are calling up their reserves. I suppose that is entirely Israel’s doing, and the poor old Gazans had nothing to do with it.

    The Sharia run Hamas government has no interest in peace. It wants to provoke war at all costs in the hope that the rest of the Muslim world will come to their aid financially and through provision of weapons.

    There will never be real peace in Jerusalem until Jesus comes again.

  60. I don’t think Israel can be blamed…

    Yeah I get that. It’s pretty obvious that Israel can’t be blamed for anything in your world.

    As for Hamas, even if you kill all their leaders some other para military organisation will just take its place. I hate religious extremism so it wouldn’t bother me that much if they were somehow wiped out.

    Unlike Q I won’t be partying in the street though.

    And yeah Fatah would have been better.

    Why was Rabin assassinated again?

  61. Bones,

    That was moronic commentary on what I actually said.

    You’re nothing more than an angry man who twists people’s words and phrases to suit your aggressive thinking.

    You’re a perfect example of one of the causes of the problem, an argumentative extreme bigot.

    We’re done!

    What I actually said was:

    ‘You make it all sound so simple. I don’t think Israel can be blamed for the way Hamas, Fatah or the PLO go about their work. They may have used it to divide themselves, but the blood-lust was already present.’

  62. Hamas AFAIK is the legitimate and democratically elected government of Palestine. I dont think much of them either, they have been proscribed as a terrorist organisation in many countries – but wiping them out is equivalent to saying that Palestine dosent have a right to exist.

    If you claim a right of existence and self-defence for yourself, then you must also concede that right to others (if you dont want to be hypocritical).

    Israel assasinated the Palestinian governments top military commander, Jabari, in the midst of their negotiations with him for a truce. He received the draft of the truce agreement just hours before he was blown up with a missile.

    Guess the Israelis werent all that serious about a cease-fire.

  63. Oh, and the crucifixion thing is a bit of an internet meme. They have adopted Sharia law which includes all punishments in the Koran – including crucifixion.

    Dosent mean they are going to crucify people soon.

    Then again, in my opinion, whoever decided to send a missile as a negotiation tactic deserves to be crucified. Upside down. Next to the guy who decided to commit terrorist acts and blame them on the Palestinians.

  64. “Unlike Q I won’t be partying in the street though.”

    The end of Hamas wouldn’t send me partying – but it would be a great beginning.

    Israel has been extremely patient and longsuffering. The world urges restraint, but how many rockets being fired at the US or Sydney or China would it take before they acted.

    If I were Netanyahu, I would have taken out a lot more targets by now. Shock and awe works. (Look it up in your history books Bones).

  65. “Then again, in my opinion, whoever decided to send a missile as a negotiation tactic deserves to be crucified.”

    I was thinking more along the lines of a medal..

    Good night. While you guys sleep spare a thought for the people of Israel who can’t sleep because of rocket attacks that are TARGETING civilians!

    Israel doesn’t target civilians. They show incredible restraint.

    Totally different mindset.

  66. “In the early hours of Saturday morning, Israel’s Air Force reduced the headquarters of the militant group Hamas to rubble.”

    Oh, great. Some good news before bed. .Well done boys!

  67. wazaa,
    Then again, in my opinion, whoever decided to send a missile as a negotiation tactic deserves to be crucified.

    So you are of the opinion that those who are responsible for firing the more then 500 missiles hurled into Israel this week deserve to be crucified?

    If the Fijian military started firing hundreds of missiles into your neighbourhood, despite warnings and requests to desist, would expect the ADF to respond in some way?

  68. Israel’s government has approved the mobilisation of as many as 75,000 army reservists after a long-range missile fired from Gaza landed in an outlying Jerusalem suburb, setting off air raid sirens across the holy city but causing no casualties.

    Bringing the possibility of a ground offensive in Gaza one step closer, the Israeli Defence Forces confirmed that a rocket struck an area on Jerusalem’s outskirts – believed to be the Gush Etzion settlement.

    It is the first Palestinian-fired missile to land near the city since 1970.

    Israel has hit the PMs office and assasinated the top military commander.

    I said whoever decided to send a missile as a negotiation tactic ie. in the middle of negotiations for a cease-fire, deserves to be crucified.

    I would expect the ADF to respond in some way, but if there were negotiations for a cease-fire I would expect them to wait until they were completed.

  69. More good news in the headlines today.

    “White House Says Israel Has Right
    To Defend Itself Against Hamas”

    Keep praying guys!

  70. “but if there were negotiations for a cease-fire I would expect them to wait until they were completed.”

    Hamas and other bad guys only plead for a cease fire when they are on the run – so that they can regroup and attack later.
    Maybe Bones the military historian can do some Sunday reading.

    That’s the time to make sure that they can never regroup.
    Hamas needs to be taken out.

    Be strong Israel. Finally the world is with you.

    (well….most of it. I think North Korea, Iran, the Taliban and Bones are still holding out).

    No wait – there”s Chavez too.

    You have to show bullies and thugs and the people who admire them that they have NO chance.

    Go IDF.

  71. Be strong Israel. Finally the world is with you.

    (well….most of it. I think North Korea, Iran, the Taliban and Bones are still holding out).

    Many Israelis are holding out too. Are these Jewish Israelis somehow deluded?

    http://www.yalibnan.com/2011/06/05/israelis-rally-in-tel-aviv-against-occupation/

    Thousands of Israelis on Saturday marked the 44th anniversary of the Six-Day War by demonstrating in Tel Aviv against the continued occupation of Palestinian territories captured in the conflict.

    The predominantly Jewish crowd marched through the centre of Tel Aviv calling for the creation of a “Palestinian state in the interests of Israel” along the borders prior to the Six-Day War, which began on June 5, 1967.

  72. Yeah Wazza, there are some very naive people in Isreal too.

    But like I said, Obama (yes, Bones”s fantasy man) has supported the right of Israel to defend itself against Hamas.

    Up for relection?? OH here, we go – conspiracy theory??

    I get it – Bones thinks that the hundreds of rockets fired by Hamas were really by Mossad, so that Netanyahu could act tough and get re-elected.

    Nutso!

    Go watch Netanyahu’s press conference. Fantastic!

    Hamas will call for a ceasefire soon when they run out of women to hide behind. Then once the ceasefire begins they’ll start getting rockets again for another future attack.

  73. Bones, your insults are pathetic. I love Israel.

    Spare your dirty jokes for when you go and become a ‘comfort man’ for Hamas.

  74. Did anyone else know there was an election coming up?

    Netanyahu’s Extremely Risky Gamble

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is hoping the offensive in the Gaza Strip wins his Likud party more votes in January’s election. But the move is extremely risky. Skirmishes could escalate into a full-blown war that might weaken Hamas but shift Palestinian support behind even more radical groups.

    Just a few hours before the launch of the deadly offensive against military targets and Hamas leaders in the Gaza Strip, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was in his favorite place: in front of live television cameras. On Wednesday evening, he addressed the Israeli people with direct, aggressive words. “Today, we relayed a clear message to the Hamas organization and other terrorist organizations,” he said. “If there is a need, the military is prepared to expand the operation.” Defense Minister Ehud Barak also addressed reporters, saying that Hamas’ “consistent provocation in recent weeks … forced our hand into acting with both precision and decisiveness.”

    The dual appearance seems to betray the motives behind the most recent attacks. “When the cannons roar, we see only Netanyahu and Barak on the screen, and all the other politicians have to applaud them,” wrote the daily Haaretz in a commentary published Thursday. “The assassination of (Hamas’ top military commander Ahmed) Jabari will go down in history as another showy military action initiated by an outgoing government on the eve of an election.”
    Indeed, one can conclude that the most recent offensive against militants in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip — which started Wednesday with the killing of Jabari — has been conceived as more of a show fight for the Israeli public than the beginning of a decisive battle.

    Dangerous Gambling

    Both Netanyahu and Barak would have good reasons for wanting to use a successful mini-campaign to score points before parliamentary elections are held on Jan. 22. Netanyahu is undoubtedly afraid that ex-Prime Minister Ehud Olmert could snatch votes away from his Likud party if he decides to throw his hat in the ring. In fact, there are rumors that Olmert was planning to announce his candidacy precisely on Wednesday evening. But the military action codenamed “Pillar of Defense” upset his plans.

    Defense Minister Barak can also no longer assume that his “Independence” party, which broke off from the Labor Party in January 2011, will win enough votes to keep seats in the country’s parliament, the Knesset. However, a successful offensive could boost its waning popularity enough to guarantee it some parliamentary seats. An offensive that gets the population to close ranks behind the military would also divert attention away from pressing social problems in Israel. Doing so would take the wind out of the sails of groups such as the Labor Party and cost them votes, thereby helping Netanyahu’s and Barak’s respective parties.

    Still, even if the offensive might give the two some political advantages, it also entails massive risks. If the violence gets out of hand and the conflict between Israel and Hamas escalates into something like the three-week war that broke out between the two in December 2008, it could have drastic consequences for the men who orchestrated it.

    The Israeli public is extremely sensitive to casualties. Sentiments could swiftly turn in the event of a few more of incidents like the Thursday attack that saw a rocket slam into an apartment building in the southern Israeli town of Kiryat Malachi, killing two men and a woman. Likewise, should the Israeli government respond to a constant barrage of rockets launched from the Gaza Strip by ordering ground troops to advance into the coastal area, it could spell even more casualties and even more public opposition to the leaders who launched “Pillar of Defense.”

    A Dangerous Balancing Act on Both Sides

    Netanyahu’s government hopes the offensive will usher in the status quo ante. Israel would like to re-establish the cease-fire that it hammered out with Hamas in January 2009, at the end of the war in Gaza. Though it was a fragile peace, for the most part, it was respected. But Hamas has been emboldened by the recent election victory in Egypt of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas’ political parent organization. Just a few months ago, Hamas started to seriously jeopardize the peace by beginning to launch rockets into Israeli territory and attacking Israeli border patrols.

    Internal political calculus was also behind the Palestinians’ decision to increase the number of attacks during the late summer: Hamas’ power base is crumbling. Many Gaza Strip residents believe the organization is too weak and view the cease-fire with Israel as a betrayal. In recent years, the support of these disenchanted residents has migrated to considerably more radical groups. By making itself appear more bellicose, Hamas hopes to win back these former supporters.

    Indeed, more than anything, it is the presence of these ultra-radical groups in the Gaza Strip that could turn Israel’s current offensive into an adventure that spirals out of control. Goaded by Israeli airstrikes and shelling from tanks and naval gunboats, these extremists will be even less inclined to agree to a new cease-fire. Their supporters expect them to take a tough stance and reject all compromises.

    These groups are affiliated with terror cells based in the Sinai Peninsula, and some of them have ties to al-Qaida. In the past, they have already blocked the attempts of Egyptian intermediaries to broker a cease-fire. In the days to come, Israel could face a situation in which Hamas becomes incapable of imposing one even if it wants to.

    Should that happen, the Israeli government would have no choice but to take over the entire Gaza Strip. However, doing so could weaken Hamas so much that the ultra-extremist Palestinian groups could simply push it aside.
    For this reason, it is paradoxically in Israel’s interest not to allow the ongoing offensive to severely batter Hamas and thereby imperil its grip on power.

    Netanyahu and Barak are now walking a perilous tightrope — and one of their own making.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-hidden-risks-of-israel-s-offensive-in-the-gaza-strip-a-867484.html

  75. Hmmm! It seems I’ve unwittingly uncovered Bone’s true nature. ‘Nuff said!

    Here’s something for wazza and crew to consider. Why, if they are the victim in all of this, did Hamas act so stupidly as to recklessly smuggle in hundreds, and perhaps, thousands of rockets, when, it is claimed by the propagandists of the left, the strip is unable to import even basic foodstuffs and medicines?

    Why, if they are the genocidal provocateur the leftist propagandists insist they are, has Israel had to spend billions on a missile defence system to protect themselves from these missiles, when it would have been far cheeper, quicker and easier to acquire offensive weaponry and just take out the Gazans once and for all?

    Israel has a sophisticated intelligence systems. We know this because they can surgically strike a single vehicle with the target they seek in seconds. They know what is happening in the Hamas camp, and they know when they need to strike before there is an opportunity for Hamas to move.

    Hamas has been planning to offload rockets into the Israeli south, where over a million people live. They are clearly pressing for the capability to target Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. At present the hardware they have is not sophisticated enough for surgical strikes, so their aim is always random, and always indiscriminately fired into civilian communities.

    Therefore Israel must utilise any means possible to prevent a human catastrophe amongst their own people, including the removal of senior terror operatives.

    Hamas has placed itself on a war footing with Israel, and would like to target bigger communities where casualties would be higher, and don’t forget, there are Palestinians in Jerusalem, too, so they will also be at risk from Hamas.

    It will be interesting to see who will be blamed if a Hamas rocket strikes the Al Haqsa Mosque.

    Israel, in a military sense, has no choice but to defend itself from these ruthless and uninhibited attacks. Anyone who denies this is either a militant Islamist or in denial.

  76. You dont like your analogy being extended Steve.

    You think you are top dog, but you are really a frightened little neutered mutt who growls and barks at shadows. As Bones says, you hump the leg of those you think are powerful and you make a big noise about chasing off imagined enemies. But if ever one did come near you, you’d squeal and hide behind your master.

    Your key passage is :

    And we urge you, brothers, encourage the idle, admonish the fainthearted, help the strong, be patient with none.

    Always seek to repay evil for evil, but see that no-one does good to one another and to everyone

  77. Extended analogy?

    Personally, I think you and Bones should have the imagination to derive your own analogies rather than steal mine.

    I mean, you have the imagination to pretend what Q and I have said into something completely removed from reality, so why not find something original?

    Frightened? Of what? Why? The greater One is with me. Of whom should I be afraid?

    Neutered? Still propagating actually!

    Mutt? I’m related to the firstborn, in fact! God doesn’t have mutts, only sons!

    Growls and barks at shadows? I think I’ve already used that one on Bones, but mostly I ignore shadows and go to the one casting them. It saves time in the long run. The shadow is merely a lead to the real. A good lesson to learn.

    So name an enemy I’d run from…

  78. Reading into what you say, wazza, and ignoring your dog-eared ignorance for a minute, you obviously believe that Hamas are the weak.

    The weak that piled over 500 rockets into civilian neighbourhoods in Israel in the last week.

    The weak who got rid of the political and militant opposition in Gaza and introduced extreme Sharia into the the legislation to control the masses.

    The weak who have built a standing army of the entire male population of their private enclave and forced them through propaganda and indoctrination to hate Israel so much they are prepared to become suicide bombers who kill and maim the civilians in cafés, buses and markets.

    The weak who train their infant children to despise Israelis from the age before they even walk.

    These are the weak leaders who have a caused a situation where it will take generations to change the minds and hearts of those they have betrayed with their destructive militant stance against Israel, whom they still refuse, ironically, to officially recognise, and yet prosecute with all the firepower they can muster through their tunnels and web of contacts with Iran, Syria and any other anti-semetic organisations they can recruit into their cause.

    I cry for the children of Gaza, as we all should. I weep for the youth of the West Bank. Not because of the defensive nature of Israel’s stand, but because of the bastardry of the Hamas, Fatah and PLO strongmen who have pulverised their minds into machination for the proliferation of a war they should never have had to engage in.

    It would be better for these Hamas leaders to have a millstone around their necks than t face the wrath of God when the Day comes.

    You think a surgical strike by Israel is bad. It is nothing like the vengeance of God on those who deprive children and youth of their innocence.

    As Jesus said, before you enter a stronghold to bring deliverance to the captives, you must first deal with the strongman.

    Maybe you have enough courage to join the saints in prayer for the deliverance of this and the next generation of Palestinian youth before their sent into the front lines again to do the strongmen’s bidding.

  79. By the way, I meet with Muslim youth every working day in my present job, and I can tell you they’re soft hearted and open to the goodness of God when it is on offer and when it is presented with the right heart.

    They are not the militant killers you see parading on the streets with the Hamas propagandists, driven by fear and peer pressure to do things no young person should have to, but afraid of the strong men who rule their lives.

    They could be changed in one generation if these wicked militants can be kept away from them with their demon-possessed ideology.

    But once they’re out of this window of time during their vulnerable youth, you have a different person to deal with.

    What’s your experience with this, wazza? What’s your solution. I’m just a timid puppy dog compared to you, old hound!

  80. By the way, looking at how things are unfolding, if Israel are unable to deliver surgical strikes with full accuracy and miss their target, hitting the wrong home, s seems to have happened on at least one occasion, then I think they need to pull back, because those kinds of mistake cannot be allowed to happen.

    The problem they face is that Hamas operatives wickedly use civilian cover when they fire rockets into Israel. So far, Israel has tried to take out leaders and rocket launching ground forces on the Hamas side, but there is no margin for error.

    Even one child or innocent person dying is unacceptable, which is why this war is such a difficult one to prosecute. It seems that Hamas are drawing Israel into a trap they cannot escape from in the eyes of the watching world.

    Whilst they have the right to defend their civilian population, they do not have the moral right to maim and kill non-combat Palestinians. It is a momentous decision they have to make in the next few days.

    But where is the UN when they should have been involved days ago? How long does it take or an envoy to fly into Israel, or enter Gaza?

    The only solution, if the UN had any guts, would be to offer a peace force to stand shotgun over the Gaza boarder, and force the Hamas operatives to pull back from launching missiles into Israel.

    That would be a solution, but why is t not taking place? Why is Israel being left to make what is a no-win decision?

  81. “deliver surgical strikes with full accuracy and miss their target, hitting the wrong home, s seems to have happened on at least one occasion, then I think they need to pull back, because those kinds of mistake cannot be allowed to happen.”

    For the record, I think that Wazza and Bones need to differentiate between Steve and I. I totally understand the above sentiment, and ordinarily would agree. But I take a harder line than Steve.

    I think there are many times when you simply can’t live by the above principle. If enemies were always dealt with on the basis that you stop if mistakes are made an civilians are killed, most of us wouldn’t be here.

    That’s the simple truth. If bombs missed targets and civilians were killed do you think the war against Germany and Japan would have finished so soon?

    If Israel always stops when civilians are killed, they will be having rockets fired on them for the next 100 years.

    But that just shows the difference doesn’t it? Groups like Hamas INTENTIONALLY target Israeli civilians. If one of their rockets got through and killed a busload of Israels kids they’d be happy! And they hide behind kids and parade them went they get hurt. Not to mention that women and children are sent out as suicide bombers.

    On the other hand, Israel, and all of us grieve when even with the greatest care, there are mistakes, or a civilian is killed when a known terrorist is taken out. So what’s the solution?

    There is none as long as you are bound by those rules.

    But I concur with all Steve wrote about weeping for the children who are used and deceived and sacrificed by Hamas and other like them.

    As for Netanyahu and a coming election? I don’t care for the writings of someone from Der Spiegel that Bones copies and takes as gospel.

    But realistically, if I were a voter, and the PM did nothing after hundreds of rocket attacks, I probably wouldn’t vote for him.

    So maybe its a good thing there’s an election.

    Anyway, this is all so ridiculously simple. Even OBAMA, is not scolding Netanyahu for his vile conspiracy – the White House is supporting Israel.

    Which means that Wazza and Bones are just super radical leftwing ratbags – who are probably infested with the same demons as Hamas.

    (and I said that as lovingly as I could – someone has to speak truth to you guys.)

    Repent and pray, and you’re whole outlook will change.

  82. Yes. Repent of criticising Israel.

    Same goes for you Jesus and the prophets.

    What is truth?

    Christian Politics – Speak truth. Be truth. That’s it!

    Christian politics.

    Enough said. This issue continues to divide Christians. I’m convinced that the complexities of politics can be narrowed down to the following: speak truth, be truth, that’s it!

    Every hour my Facebook newsfeed is dominated by weak sloganeering endorsing this or that policy or political figure. Very little truth-telling happens when our sensationalist culture sets the standard – a low one at best.

    Speak truth.

    One of the roles of the people of God is to be a voice for truth in a world full of parodies. Lies or half-truths come to us on the left and right, trying to trap us in a “this or that” war of words. Media, as it has always done, pulls us into a binary mode of thought causing us to speak about political matters on their terms.
    Jesus and the early church offer a better way. In the tradition of the prophets (who spoke out against the surrounding nations and Israel when either was guilty of facilitating socially oppressive policies) the early church boldly proclaimed that “Jesus Christ is Lord,” implicitly claiming that Caesar isn’t.

    Jesus himself criticized the political system within Israel that failed to uphold justice. He was in fact the last of Israel’s prophets, and in continuity with these prophets declared a politically loaded statement as his inaugural address:

    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me. He has sent me to preach good news to the poor, to proclaim release to the prisoners and recovery of sight to the blind, to liberate the oppressed, and to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor. (Luke 4.18-19, quoting Isaiah 61)

    In speaking these words, Jesus recaptured an old Hebraic political truth over-against the puppet reign of Herod and ultimately the Romans. This claim by Jesus reminds readers that the politics of Israel (as part of the Roman Empire) failed to create spaces for human flourishing. Both the agendas of the nationalistic Jews and the Jewish compromisers contradicted the vision of Jubilee, so Jesus confronted hypocritical social injustice built into the structures of the day. This is speaking truth to power.

    Later, Jesus criticizes the political realities in Israel more directly (again, under Rome’s leadership):

    “How terrible for you Pharisees! You give a tenth of your mint, rue, and garden herbs of all kinds, while neglecting justice and love for God. These you ought to have done without neglecting the others. (Luke 11.42)

    The Pharisees hated the Romans but played into the political reality of the time in order to bring about the holy liberation of Israel. Their agenda was not merely a “spiritual” one as many suppose. They acted politically and Jesus spoke against the structures they created.

    As N.T. Wright says:

    [T]he Pharisees were a pressure group in what we would call the social and political sphere… it’s important to loosen ourselves up, away from an older interpretation that sees the Pharisees as simply ‘religious leaders’ in the sense we mean it today, and so to get out of our minds any idea that Jesus’ solemn denunciation of them was simply what we might call ‘religious polemic.’ Jesus saw very clearly that there were many self-appointed teachers in the world of first-century Judaism who were using their learning partly for their own status and partly for their own political ends.[1]

    So, in this instance Jesus spoke truth to one political agenda of his day. Jesus was not apolitical, but also not overly obsessed with aligning with a particular agenda. His agenda was to speak truth to social injustice and to be truth for the cause of the highest justice – God’s reign.

    Modern examples of prophetic truth tellers within the church are Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Desmond Tutu. Dr King not only fought racism, but spoke against an unjust war and for better labor rights for working class people as he rallied in favor of unions. Desmond Tutu spoke truth as he called South Africa to reconcile as one people, leaving behind the evils of Apartheid. God calls the church to speak truth, as Dr. King once said:

    The church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state. It must be the guide and the critic of the state, and never its tool. If the church does not recapture its prophetic zeal, it will become an irrelevant social club without moral or spiritual authority. (““Strength to Love,” 1963)

    Be truth.

    In discerning when to speak truth, we ought to ask: “What will alleviate the most suffering?”[2] The government’s action or lack of action can cause injustice, so we ought to speak up for those without a voice, those whom with the prophets, Jesus, and the early church often identified.

    Although various regimes may only listen to our truth-critiques, our claims bear absolutely no weight when we fail to live out the sort of reality we endorse. The people of God are always called to live as a counter-culture, the sort that is such a contrast that the kingdoms of this world want what we have to offer.

    To be truth is to live in such a way that no matter the government, those in our midst are lifted up into their full potential as human image-bearers. This is the primary political summons as followers of King Jesus. We certainly see this modeled throughout the book of Acts (not to mention throughout the whole New Testament):

    There were no needy persons among them. Those who owned properties or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds from the sales, and place them in the care and under the authority of the apostles. Then it was distributed to anyone who was in need. (Acts 4.34-35)

    We don’t depend on a government to carry out justice. At times it will, usually it won’t. We depend on transformed disciples to live into self-sacrificial love. It doesn’t follow that we then promote small governmental ideals because justice is supposedly solely the church’s role – as if such a dichotomy exists in the Bible. Rather, God consistently called the nations to implement systems that create space for humans to be dignified. Simultaneously, God calls the church to create an even better localized alternative that goes beyond the superficialities of even the “best” governments. This is how “speaking truth” and “being truth” work together.

    That’s it!

    Speak truth. Be truth. That’s it! That’s how I’d summarize the role of Christians in this politically loaded season. Our hope for a better world is not in our political bantering. We speak truth when power structures’ action or inaction oppresses the marginalized of the world. This takes discernment acknowledging the complexities often omitted from standard “Christian” approaches. We choose to be truth, living as an alternative polis under the Kingship of Jesus.

    When American politics lure us into media driven arguments about the next best hope for now until 2016, let’s say: “that’s it!” Our hope is in something even better, a political rebel, killed by the government of his day and raised to life by God. This hope dethrones the powers (visible and invisible) and compels us to pray “thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth…”

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2012/08/27/speak-be-truth/

  83. I’m infested with totally different demons to those which infest Hamas.

    Yes, you have the same ones that infested Jesus.

    Funny. Someone said He had demons too.

    Actually I think Q needs to repent.

    He’s made Israel out to be a doctrine and something to be worshipped.

    It’s a form of ultra-nationalism really.

  84. zzzzzzz another copy and paste….

    Lovely sentiments expressed above. But you’ve totally missed it once again in your hatred of all things Israel, including those who support her (in such a time as this).

    I think Israel is totally justified in responding to the attacks on their innocent citizens. In order to make sure Hamas never does it again (read some news over the years instead of leftwingratbag.com)
    I believe Israel would be justified in doing all that is necessary.

    If in doing that some civilians are killed I’ll probably be sadder than you, but if by that the lives of EVEN MORE people are saved, then I am for justice.

    You think you are on Jesus side – but you aren’t. There is such a thing as justice. As righteousness. As a people defending itself.

    Go back to WW2 and you might have argued for Christians doing nothing but sit around and say Jesus is Lord and sing kumbaya and not getting involved. Fine. But you are here speaking English because people in the US and Australia etc defended themselves.

    Hamas are cowardly evil creeps. I can’t see how anyone can’t see Israel’s right to attack now in order to stop it.

    Obama does. Clinton does. I do.

  85. @Wazza, I loved that comment.

    Maybe YOU can calm Bones down.

    Listen, I’d be happy for everyone in Israel to come and live in Australia and let Hamas and all the others have Israel.

    But the tiny nation of Israel is there, a democracy where Jews are safe from Hitler types. They are right to defend themselves.

    And I don’t see that Jesus is against that.

    Wow. Now Bones the prophet thinks he’s Christlike for beating up on Israel. You should get your money back from your Professors if that’s where you got this nonsense. Man, you’re bent so left it’s a wonder you can walk without falling over.

  86. “It’s a form of ultra-nationalism really.”

    Hundreds of rocket attacks and finally responding with surgical strikes, and that’s ultra-nationalism?

    After Pearl Harbor you probably thought the Americans should have sent over some sushi to show their repentance!

  87. “’m infested with totally different demons to those which infest Hamas.”

    That’s brilliant Wazza. Might make a bumper sticker out of that.

  88. Perhaps we should ask God what He has to say, or at least Paul:

    25. I wish for you to know, my brethren, this sermon, so that you may not be set in your own opinions, that the blindness of heart affects a small portion of Israel, until there has entered all the nations in their entirety.
    26. And then all Israel Lives, as it is written in Scriptures,

    “There shall come from Zion a Savior
    and he shall take away the abomination from Jacob.
    27. “And then they shall receive the Covenant from me,
    When thus their sins are forgiven.”

    28. Through the Revelation of God then, they are enemies because of you. And through Election they are beloved because of the ancestors.
    29. For God does not renege on His endowments and calling.
    30. For whereas you also were not in communion with God from the beginning, and now you are consecrated because of their estrangement,
    31. Thus they also did not recognize now the mercies shown you, so as there would be mercies upon them too.
    32. For God combined all human beings in non-communion, so that He may be merciful to every human being.

    33. Oh, the depth and wealth and wisdom and knowledge of God, that no human being can wipe out their debt and follow on the heels of his ways.

    34. “For who understands the Omniscience of the Lord?
    Or who can be His councilor?
    35. “And who first gave him righteousness and received it back from him?”
    36. For all is from him and everyone is through him and everything is in his hands,
    To him glory and blessing, to [the end of] the universe, of all the universes, amen.

  89. People are obsessed with the criminality and conduct of others by virtue of their own sinful nature. We will never find a loving Savior so long as we are looking for scapegoats. But God has combined every human being in disobedience so that he may have mercy on all. If you do not get this you have not even begun to really understand Jesus…you just think that you know Him…but He certainly understands you…

    Time to crack a Corona…this is thirsty work…beer anyone?

    By the way, please note how God built a prison and banged up Cain for life over sacrificing his brother to Lucifer…? See, you really don’t know nearly as much as you think about God…and Bones, I know I am not Jesus, but I do know He is my Big Brother.

    Family! Friends are so much easier already!

  90. By the way Q, WW2 was a set up to make money and cull the population – and dress rehearsal and systems check for WW3.

    IBM ran the concentration camps – they now own the London Metropolitan Police force and Bristol and one other I don’t remember off hand. The NYPD is also privately owned and the reinvented Blackwater is the new SS.

    For what it is worth, Israel is pretty much under the jack-boot heel of the Ashkenazi hordes of Gog and Magog – America and Russia. Check out the two effigies of the “giants” who protect the City of London – God and Magog. America and Russia. You guys have not idea what is really going on – have you?

    But the fun really starts when Esau breaks the bands of Jacob. Its all in the Book boys, and all by the Book.

  91. BY the way Bones, it was of course the Jews which sought to kill Jesus, the Israelites loved Him, if only for the free tucker…and the Romans were only too happy that he encouraged people to pay their taxes but it was the JEWS who hated Him without cause – like it would seem you do me.

    Only John and Mary remained faithful, and John was the one Jesus loved and who was the apostle of Love. John means “God’s gracious gift”. Ian is Scottish for John. What does “Bones” mean? Doggone it Bones!

  92. Why Ian I don’t hate you. And I certainly don’t want you executed. I do find you mildly entertaining.

    While youre here, I’ll give you a challenge. I’ve been lying in bed all day unable to sit, standing is uncomfortable due to a back injury.

    I’m up for a miracle when you’re ready.

  93. What were you saying about negotiations, wazza?

    (Reuters) – A large crowd of Palestinians cheered a Hamas leader’s pledge on Tuesday never to recognize Israel and celebrated the Islamist movement’s 23rd anniversary at a Gaza rally punctuated by sonic booms from Israeli jets.

    Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, whose group runs the Gaza Strip, said the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) headed by Western-backed President Mahmoud Abbas had made a “historic mistake” by recognizing Israel.

    “We said it five years ago and we say it now … we will never, we will never, we will never recognize Israel,” Haniyeh told the gathering which some organizers said was attended by around 250,000 people.

    Haniyeh had raised speculation last month about a change in Hamas’s charter, which calls for Israel’s destruction, by suggesting the group could accept a referendum on any peace treaty giving the Palestinians a state on land Israel captured in a 1967 war.

    But he said such a truce would entail “no recognition of Israel and no concessions over any part of the land of Palestine.”

    In his speech, Haniyeh challenged critics and local surveys which said Hamas’s popularity was in decline over poor governance in Gaza.

    He voiced confidence that Hamas, which defeated Abbas’s long-dominant Fatah movement in a 2006 election and seized the Gaza Strip in 2007 from forces loyal to the Palestinian leader, would win any future ballot.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/14/us-palestinians-hamas-idUSTRE6BD2XW20101214

    Ironic that they are launching so many rockets into a State they don’t even think exists! Perhaps that’s why their aim is so random and civilians they don’t recognise are being made to run for cover!

  94. Come on Bones, you know that is not how it works, I am not a performing Seal – the gift is the function – I am what God once described to me as like a piece of copper wire – a conductor of grace. But that was even before my eyes were opened to the God kind of Faith – when it gets real slick and just goes click. I was still stuck in the OT.

    There are three essential elements. The will of God, which we all ought know to be Love, and according to Paul in Ephesians 1:9-11, the renewal of all things, both in heaven and in earth, from the Head.

    The faith of the person or person who stands for them, and the connection of the intercessor – that is my part.

    Jesus said, which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven you, or rise, take up you bed and walk. He did this so that they would know that the Son of Man has POWER of earth to forgive sin – whatsoever YOU bind is bound, whatsoever YOU loose is loosed – the WOF guys pretty much got this right, but other stuff SOOOO wrong, but God is a BIG GOD, much bigger than any man’s sin, besides, He owns it already.

    Have you given the care of the matter to God? Have you claimed as your blessing healing, the children’s bread? Have you asked to be relived of the burdens which have impacted your spine? Do you want to be unburdened of every sense of guilt and shame and judgment?

    It is not about we forgiving ourselves, it is about forgiving others, releasing others, not carrying he burden of their sin, and enjoying that unbearable lightness of heart that comes only from Love.

    The reason we do not stay in that blessed place of light and loveliness is that we cannot contain it. Now, my besetting weakness of the flesh is my eyesight, for a multitude of reasons it healing seems to elude me in this sector, and I am sure even the occasional Corona or Chardonnay does more harm than good, but I have so desired for my eyes to be not dimmed, to have perfect vision as I am meant to.

    About 5 or 6 yrs ago, I was taking a shower – it is easy to get close to God when you are naked and unashamed, even if you are old and mildly (ahem) obese. I was meditating on being healing – it had just come to me – that I needed to embrace being healing and that it would take the call on my life to a whole other dimension of faith.

    Then the strangest thing happened, my eyes began to see very clearly and I thought, oh, I must have left my glasses on and not realized it – they are ultralight titanium and polycarbonate – it is easy to forget that you have them on, I could see perfectly and opened the shower door to put my glasses on the vanity and realized not only did I not have my glasses, but that I could see quite clearly, like more than perfectly, better than I could ever, and then it just faded and I was back to what I was used to – being half-blind – literally.

    It was like someone changing the focus on my eyes.

    I felt so cheated, and heard “Don’t worry, the day will come when it will stick”. I felt a great confidence and assurance that inevitably, I would have the gift of perfect eyesight.

    I have a prayer proposition for you. I believe very strongly that the God kind of Prayer involves the God kind of Faith, which I believe is also one of His SEVEN SPIRITS of God.

    God’s Faith is PERFECT. His prayer is POWERFUL, and His grace sublime. My proposition is that you pray for my eyesight and I will pray for your spine, and that we both covenant to do what God compels us to do with respect to what we are to do in reciprocity – the corresponding actions of faith by which faith is so often made manifest.

    By loving one another enough to pray and also to forgive, we open the door wide to Love to have its perfect work in us. It makes us vulnerable to God and to one another. We trend to eschew vulnerability but this is kind of long distance mutual foot washing, if that makes sense, and I am sure it does.

    Now I have one more burden to share with you. Many moons ago, the Great Father (OK I am messing with you) came to me as I was contemplating and said – “You need to forgive.”

    I said that I had Lord, as far as I knew, I thought that I had pretty much forgiven and released everyone.

    “No, you need to forgive”.

    “But I have forgiven by faith, what more can I do?”

    “You need to forgive others.”

    “OK, so please show me who?” I thought this would be a cake walk, there cannot be many…oh what an idiot I was…

    Up popped an old fashioned Rolodex card file. Up flipped a card – someone I recognized, so I released her by faith and then another, and another, then they went faster and faster until it was just a never ending blur of cards…

    “STOP – OK, I get the point” And at that the Holy Spirit began to minister to me and over time things got lighter and lighter until one day I was kind of blessed out on God and he popped that Rolodex file up and there was one card left, and by inspiration I simply blew that last card away with a puff of Holy Spirit breath – and felt so free – such an unbearable lightness of being. Then I heard, “OK, so now for the family”. Oh dear..

    He never gives up on you! We have been sold the lie that we have to love and to forgive ourselves before we can love others or be free – excuse me ladies but that is utter psycho babble bullshit. We forgive BECAUSE we are forgiven, we love because we are first loved. We are a bride, we respond to our husband Jesus. He who only has ONE COMMAND for His disciples, His followers, which takes care of all – and that is to love, one to another, even as he first loved us. He said to love your neighbor as yourself, not as you love yourself! So be it.

  95. Steve – do you know who owns Reuters? Since 1838, the House of Rothschild, bank-rollers of Israel and clandestine rulers of the world along with those whacky Windsors and Welfs. Bone up on it Bones, they pretty much own you as a Vassal. You can no more take their word on it than you can the Book of Mormon on Jesus. They are like Heinz, they have 57 flavors of religion to keep the mewling masses mesmerized.

  96. By the end of December 2008, a total of 15 people had been killed by Palestinian rockets since attacks began in 2001.
    ….
    In 2006, the Israeli Ministry of Defense viewed the Qassams as “more a psychological than physical threat.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

    Israeli aircraft struck crowded areas in the Gaza Strip and killed a senior militant with a missile strike on a media center Monday, driving up the Palestinian death toll to 100, as Israel broadened its targets in the 6-day-old offensive meant to quell Hamas rocket fire on Israel.

    Escalating its bombing campaign over the weekend, Israel began attacking homes of activists in Hamas, the Islamic militant group that rules Gaza. These attacks have led to a sharp spike in civilian casualties, killing 24 civilians in just under two days and doubling the number of civilians killed in the conflict, a Gaza health official said.

    http://blog.al.com/wire/2012/11/palestinian_death_toll_reaches.html

  97. CUFI writes :

    Dear Wazza,

    Last week, Israel launched Operation Pillar of Defense to stop the rocket fire from Gaza onto Israel’s towns and cities. Since that time, it has been waging a war on two fronts. The Israeli armed forces are fighting Hamas on the traditional military front with targeted strikes against terrorists and arms caches. And Israeli spokesmen are fighting an increasingly intense war for public opinion on the internet.

    Referring to social media sites such as Twitter, Israeli military spokeswoman Col. Avital Leibovich said that in the four years since Israel and Hamas last fought, an “additional war zone” has developed. This battle for public opinion is one which Israel may well be losing. According to the Washington Post, “Israel might not actually be winning the Twitter war. By one metric, it’s losing 150 to one.”

    When it comes to Israel’s military campaign, there is little that we in America can do to help. But when it comes to this second conflict — the so-called “Twitter war” — there is something important we can do. The fact is that it’s illegal for an American company like Twitter to provide services to Hamas in the first place. We must demand that Hamas be banned from Twitter.

  98. @Steve. This would all be different if groups like Hama really were interested in peace with Israel. To me it’s blindingly obvious that there are some groups who will never really want to co-exist.
    This is not like a border dispute between Canada and the US, or even China and Japan. It’s just way beyond that.

  99. To me people like Wazza and Bones mean well, but they simply underestimate the hatred, and the real intentions of the people who are fighting Israel.

  100. “People are obsessed with the criminality and conduct of others by virtue of their own sinful nature.”

    One of the truest statements I’ve ever heard.

    “Time to crack a Corona…this is thirsty work…beer anyone?”

    I would really love to have a beer with some of you guys. And I promise I wouldn’t smash a bottle over anyones head!

  101. So wazza goes to the disproportionate force issue, which the Hamas propagandists are already plying, and is nonsense really, since it is clear that if Israel really wanted to increase the pressure they have at their disposal they could take out Gaza very quickly.

    The fact is that, despite extreme provocation, they have been relatively restrained. By comparison, Hamas has not stopped launching its arsenal to as much an extent as they could.

    So the claim of disproportionate force has to be measured against capability.

    If Hamas had the same capability there would be no Israel.

  102. Exactly Steve. But to me this is just the old old story. It’s happened so many times that I don’t understand why people put up with it.

    Hamas (or a similar group – but usually a Muslims group that hates Israel and denies its right to exist) uses every means they have to inflict damage on Israel. Israel eventually responds. No matter how they try to be careful some civilians get killed (which is basically unavoidable because the terrorists hide and live and work among civilians). Then the wounded get paraded in front of cameras along with weeping mothers, and the world accuses Israel of disproportionate force. Every calls on Israel to restrain itself.
    So a truce is called. Then Hamas (or whatever group) spends the next months or years procuring weapons and the means to use them against Israel.

    Then it all starts again. And for some reason, it’s only after months of attacks when Israel tries to take out the people responsible that the worlds media and Bones decide to get enraged and accuse Israel.

    As for Israel having better weaponry – thank God! The big problem is that the weaponry of Hamas etc is getting better. So, I’d be hitting them hard now.

    But here’s the ultimate point. If Israel and the US were really the monsters that everyone portrays – they could have completely bombed the surrounding countries into the Stone Age long ago. They could have – and nobody would have done anything about it, and there’d be more peace than there is now.

    But they are trying to not kill civilians and are trying to come up with solutions. But its hard to do that when people are bent on your total destruction.

  103. The principle reason why Hamas will never have the firepower is that the US gives more aid to Israel that than all other causes combined. IN fact, the latest targeted assassination was of Israel’s man on the ground there – Haaretz said as much.

    If you know the prophets then. like the True Torah Jews you will know that FIRST Messiah comes to establish HIS Government and THEN He shall call HIS people from among the nations. The True Jews of the Book, and not that abomination, the Babylonian Talmud, (the traditions of the men which make the Word of God no effect), refuse to move to Israel until they are called.

    Most of the Governance and control of Israel is by Russian Ashkenazim – historically called the hordes of Magog. If you know your Bible, Gog and Magog are the US and Russia. Also, if you research it you will find that Ethiopia, Gomer, Put and the other nations listed in the prophets are there too. They have already come up an covered the land, as the prophets said they would before Messiah would come.

    The Sabbatean Talmudists and Kabbalists (funny, spell check offered “Globalist”) hate Xian’s like a disease, they hate the Palestinians as dogs. Hagee and his hanger’s on have sucked up to the Sabbateans without realizing what it is that they have done. Christians Zionists are as a CZ is to a diamond – fakes.

    A while back, I had it broken down for me as thus (I like simple answers): Jacob(Zion) is pitching Esau(Christendom) against Ishmael(Islam). These are the three “nations” of Monotheism, and all see themselves as being the heirs of the Promise of Abraham, to wit, the world and all that is in it. If you see this from a regional perspective, you miss the whole broader dynamic at work.

    The Jews hate Paul much more than Jesus. Those Jews who are not His followers, who have no personal revelation of Jesus, think He was a prophet who went mad and thought that He was God, so they dealt with Him as they have dealt with most prophets – yet God still loves them – go figure. Paul however they see as the progenitor of Christianity – that it was his own hybrid religion and their answer was to infiltrate the Church and to suborn and supplant it by inculcating the traditions of the Jews and Babylonian doctrines of demons into the mix, by leavening the loaf with their double-dealing hypocrisy.

    The thing which got Paul hated so much was that he preached that natural Israel found its completion as Spiritual Israel, and that they had been cut off for the sake of the Gentiles, so that they may be grafted in – but Paul also said that God could prune and graft at will – nothing is impossible to God, from raising Lazarus after 4 days dead, to renewing all things from the Head.

    As a friend is want to say, it is not smaller problems that we need, but a deeper revelation of God,a bigger God makes for smaller problems. Because the Church has dropped the ball when it comes to spiritual authority, Satan’s mob have taken over, but God will only allow Him a prescribed degree of latitude. The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof.

    The Lord said to me a while back, “A lot of old conflicts are about to be settled.” A wee while later He said, “The whole world will turn on Israel – do not be a part of this in any way”.

    He impressed upon me that as the Sanhedrin had positioned Israel as the Light of the World, the Messiah Nation, and claimed their Lubavitcher Messiah would come every generation, that they would set themselves up to be the patsy of the world – the scapegoat, for that is what Messiah became, and as they sought to supplant Him with their anti-Christ counterfeit King, that they would incur the judgment of the world, and that they would be outed as being “The Problem” and would be attacked.

    Now this will also be the lot of those who are the Israel of the Spirit who support Israel. Ironically, the Noachide Laws which were ratified by both Bush’s provide for the elimination of idolaters by beheading.

    The game plane is to get the three mono’s to slug it out, and in the process to destroy them and most of the rest of the population of the world, so that those who worship their “True” God, Lucifer, may inherit the world. The plan is to systematically cull the world down to 500 million living in harmony with nature.

    If you see this as anything other than the devils last ditch effort to supplant God, to exalt himself above God then you miss the whole point. He is coming to the end of his tenure, ad he will gather the nations together to fight God – its called the UN. Look up “Lucius Trust” if you do not know about it.

    A while back, I asked Jesus to please show me just how developed the Tower is, and just how widespread and insinuated into the loaf of the Church is the leaven of the Pharisees – when He did I was quite shocked. Never, ever forget that Satan’s MO is SUBTLETY and INSINUATION and LIES, LIES. LIES!

  104. The reason why the Mono’s will duke it out is that they have been deceived into thinking that they are the heirs of the Promise, but Paul tells us to this day, that the PROMISE WAS TO ONE, the SEED, which is CHRIST. If you are Christs, then are you Abraham’s seed and heirs of the kingdom. The harmony of scripture tells us that all things are His, that He has overcome all, and all is in subjection beneath His feet, and He is patiently waiting until His enemies become consecrated as the rug under His feet. There are two kinds of people, those who have been awakened to righteousness and those who have yet to be, and all things are His, and He has committed all Mankind to imprisonment so that He may be merciful to ALL. You are either the prisoner of Christ or of the Flesh – there is no other alternative – no third way. It is the cross or the comfort zone, and the comfort zone is really a pit for the unwary and unwitting, and the blind guides of the blind lead them into it.

    In a meeting in 2001, Jesus showed me two separate visions of Him on the Cross – ask Him to show you – it will change you. Our denial of the resurrection means we keep nailing Jesus to the cross – crucifying Christ anew – the sacrifice once for all was not good enough. You, me we all need a revelation of the cross so that you may move on to the revelation of the resurrection and then walk in the Power of it, walking in the Spirit, which is walking in the resurrection.

    The Jews who killed Jesus will do anything to keep you from this. Just like they gave the Muslims and the Mormons and all those other cults and sects their scriptures, so too they have messed with your minds and your holy book. The True Word of God is immutable however, for God hid it where no man can touch it – in your heart.

    And in that Day, says God, I will write MY LAW on your hearts and no longer shall you need to teach your neighbor to know Me, for ALL SHALL KNOW ME, from the least to the greatest, and you will need not that ANY MAN should teach you, but the SPIRIT WITHIN shall teach you of ALL things and shall lead you into ALL TRUTH. (That’s in the Bible, Bones, Greg)

    What will you do for strength, for witness, for revelation when they take your Bible from you and demand that you recant Jesus or loose your head? Historicist, Preterit and Kingdom Now not included, of course. I wonder what Hagee will do? Probably a John 16:3 instead of John 3:16.

  105. Lets put it this way, Bones and Steve, is there anything that Israel could do, any extent that they could go to in the conflict – where you would criticise them and they would lose your support?

    For example, if they rounded up the Palestinians into concentration camps and humanely gassed them – would they lose your support?

  106. On June 6, 2001 (1:6) a 16yrs old Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself and 16 young Israelis to bits in a Tel Aviv nightspot. The story in the local Press told of how the father was so proud of his son, who was a martyr in the Paradise of God. I read it out loud and scoffed, saying the man is obviously a fool and his son is in hell.

    My wife gently admonished me that it was not for me to judge, so I said, “NO, I am pretty sure of my ground on this matter, he is a fool and his son is in hell. Again she said “I would not judge that if I were you, that is only for God to judge.” I ran off upstairs to get ready for work, calling over my shoulder that the man was a fool and his son was in hell.

    Funny how Jesus works it so you deny Him three times before He straightens you out.

    Half way up the stairs a booming, commanding and familiar voice said, “You watch who you are saying is in hell, I called you to be a witness, not a judge! I immediately repented in my heart and then “And what would you say if I said that boy was with me right now?”

    The scene before me changed to one of Jesus standing before me, with his arm about the shoulder of a young Arabic looking boy in white robe with eyes imploring me to believe while the face of Jesus looked wrath with indignation.

    I said, “You are going to have to teach me about this Lord” and he said, “Don’t worry, I will” and the scene returned to our house and immediately the Word came to me, that henceforth, we are to know NO MAN after the flesh (according to our mind and its apprehension of where they are at). I crawled upstairs like a whipped dog.

    Over time the Lord began to open my eyes and I recounted the experience in an essay which caused great controversy amongst believers. One preacher in America who I admired wrote to me and told me it was the most dangerous thing to the Church he had ever read and that I was way past wrong. I asked Rabboni how to deal with this and He said, “Get him in agreement”. So I offered, and still do, that we should agree that we put this matter in the hands of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel and that the Holy Spirit will teach us severally what we need to know”.

    15mths later, the Holy Spirit told me to go to this man’s website and see what he had just posted – his first treatise in 15mths recounted how God had basically shown him that despite all that he knew, and he knew a lot, that he basically knew nothing – he had been severely corrected and humbled and recounted the process and what God had been teaching him concerning humility.

    So, let us just agree that the holy Spirit of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the inner Rabbi, will teach us and guide us and lead us into all truth. Aa-meen?

  107. The reason why he (my judge) fell for it, hook line and thinker, was that God makes us fishers of men. But He is a catch and release fisher of men, it is all about setting people free from what “hooks” them.

    The real issue of Israel is not land, it is kingdom. They seek the Jerusalem which is from beneath, we (should) seek that which is from above, from the Father of Lights, in whom there is no darkness, neither any shadow of turning – there is no contradiction in God, for he cannot deny or contradict Himself.

    Politics is not the answer, only The Prince of Peace can sort this mess out, but the “other” Prince will come as a Man of Peace and a Man of Good – a Grey Man, with Grey Rules (the perfectly plastic Noahide Laws) and a Grey Mind. Whoever crafts a peace deal in Palestine will be the one – and my pick is watch for Prince Charles to be the one – he is acceptable to Jews, Muslims and Churchians.

    A Christ-ian is a follower of Christ and will walk in the Spirit and manifest fruit that endures and a witness of grace – there ought to be neither dirt nor blood on their hands.

    Obama says he is a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. Fruit? More like fruit cake. LOL.

  108. Have a look at the news today about Hamas dragging alleged spies through the streets. Hamas are unspeakably evil. They need to be eradicated.

    When Hamas, or some other group is calling for a truce, it’s because they are losing and in trouble. And that’s the wrong time to call a truce. You keep going until they have no hope of recovering, and when others are so fearful they don’t want to join.

    Probably half the people in the world who are commenting on Gaza and accusing Israel of being heavy handed couldn’t locate it on a map and have no idea of the activity of Hamas over the years.

    What some of you here are also not noticing is the silence of many of the surrounding countries who you would think would be criticizing Israel and showing support for Hamas.

    Hamas are the Palestinians worst enemy. I support Israel’s right to use attack as the best defence.

    And that has absolutely nothing to do with what I think about the Bible, the promised land or eschatology.

    If North Korea kept raining down rockets on Japan, I’d support Japan’s right to defend itself (regardless of what atrocities Bones would bring up from 70 years ago).

  109. wazza,
    They have adopted Sharia law which includes all punishments in the Koran – including crucifixion. Dosent [sic] mean they are going to crucify people soon.

    Of course not. They use more modern means of dealing with people they don’t agree with…

    Militants believed to be from the Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigade publicly executed six men accused of collaborating with Israel, as Israel’s air force stepped up its aerial bombing campaign in one of the deadliest days of its military campaign in Gaza.

    The corpse of a collaborator was tied to the back of a motorcycle and dragged through central Gaza City in front of a convoy of bikes, his pants pulled down and his arms splayed behind him.

    Witnesses said six men had earlier been taken onto a main street in the Sheikh Radwan neighbourhood in Gaza City and forced to lay down on the ground, where they were shot to death.

    A message reportedly pinned to the bodies read: “Al-Qassam Brigades announces the execution of the traitors” who “contributed to the martyrdom of many fighters by reporting their position… and giving the enemy information about the movement of the fighters.”
    Human rights group are still investigating the incidents, and Issam Yousef, director of the Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights said he was unable to confirm who caught or killed the men.

    “Some of the names that have been mentioned to me tonight [as collaborators who were killed] had already been charged and sentenced to death. They were not just taken from the street today and shot,” Mr Yousef said. “Collaborators are a very serious issue in Palestinian society. According to many hundreds of cases there have been extremely serious crimes committed by collaborators, especially in situations like this.”

    But instead of summary executions, collaborators should be charged and dealt with in line with the law, with their legal rights protected, Mr Yousef said.

    “It is the state of Israel targeting civilians and leaders of the resistance – they are doing it with drones but they are also using collaborators,” he said.

    Indeed the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights notes that collaborators with Israel “are an integral part of the occupation’s structure and one of the most effective weapons used by the Israeli military in maintaining the illegal occupation”.

    “Collaborators cooperate in, and even carry out, crimes of the Israeli military – crimes which often constitute war crimes as defined under international humanitarian law.”

    Also vocal in its opposition to the death penalty, the PCHR said collaborators must be dealt with in strict accordance with international standards on arrest, detention and the right to a fair trial.

    The execution of the six men follows a similar incident on Friday, in which Palestinian militants publicly executed a man accused of providing intelligence to the Israeli army.

    A note was attached to his body claiming he confessed to participating in 15 Israeli assassination operations.

    In September a Gaza court sentenced a man to death on charges of collaborating with Israel, the Maan news agency reported.
    The executions came on the seventh day of an Israeli military offensive that has killed more than 120 Palestinians, both militants and civilians, as well as four Israelis, including a soldier who died today.

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/gazas-motorcycle-lynch-mob-spies-executed-corpse-dragged-through-streets-20121121-29or1.html#ixzz2CnXtfMMA

  110. Q, I have a ‘friend’ who has just gone back to Israel to fight the Palestinians he calls dogs. He hates them more than anything, even more than the apostle Paul. He just thinks Jesus was a prophet gone nuts so they offed him. He does not like Xian’s much and for him to go into a Church is a mortal sin, but he is allowed in a Mosque, he says that most Muslim Arabs are his brothers.

    He likes me as by God I was enabled to speak into his heart and nail him a few times. After that I had told him well ahead of time of the first two major EQ’s he was impressed – he thinks I am more Jewish than him. Maybe I am – who knows blood?

    All of my siblings and me married people of Jewish blood – go figure – what are the odds – 5 of us.

    My friend is fluent in Arabic – he looks Arabic, he has an Arabic name which means Prince. He flies Emirates and pretends to be an Arab so he will get extra special service. He was taught Arabic in the IDF so he could readily communicate and infiltrate. He told me that all the soldiers who look Arabic are taught it. I have seen masked Hamas fighters who looked just like them, one having a star of David just visible in the cleft of his shirt. Their bearing was not that of rag-tag Palestinians, but of well drilled special forces types, with powerful physiques – just like my friend Amir.

    The Palestinians really are so dumb, the Israelis play them like they play the Xian’s – for a bunch of suckers. They want the Gaza oil and gas, they want the fertile soil, and they want the Palestinians, aka Amalekites, out of THEIR country.

    Do not confuse Jewish obsequiousness with genuine niceness. IF they respect you they are quite different than if they disdain you or pander to you. Their word for strength, kowach, means “like a chameleon or a large lizard”. Their meme for strength is reptilian, that is why Jesus called them vipers. We become conformed to the image we behold – if that image is Jesus Christ then we become transformed into the same image, from glory to glory – if it is the Serpent of Old, well guess what? That coiled Kundalini serpent in your belly called the nature of the flesh, takes over. This is what we have to be circumcised from – that is why when anointing hits it feels sometimes like it doubles you over, like a cut.

    Try this faith experiment – ask God to circumcise your heart. It may take a while – I’m still working on it – it hurts – like Paul, I yearn to be free of this flesh and be with the Lord.

    Think on this, have you angered someone and it feels like their strike is like that of a serpent? I once “saw” the Leviathan self of a pastor come out his mouth and BITE. The poison really throws you. I have also seen the Spirit of Zion – the Black Widow Spirit. This is the one which works through women in the church, it is also called Jezebel. Ever wondered why in the West women far outlive men? That’s the Black Widow for you, she kills and consumes her mate.

    Now think on this wise, if a person is raised to be a chameleon, they become the perfect hypocrite, able to compartmentalize their conscience and do the most abominable things and smile and think that they serve God while doing it. Like run over Rachel Corrie with a bulldozer and then grin about it. God is not mocked. Their own prophets said that 2/3’s would die in the final holocaust, the burnt offering.

    Fundamentally it is a form of trauma based mind control anchored in ritual abuse and sacrifice, including human sacrifice – in essence they are sociopaths.

    Roughly 1/3rd of Israel is True Torah, Messianic and Christian, 1/3 is Atheist Socialist/Communist, and 1/3 is Sabbatean, Lubavitcher, Ultra Orthodox, Kabbalist, Talmudist. The god of these last 33% is Lucifer. God will destroy His enemies to save His people. About 33% of the IDF is Talmudist and they pretty much run it. The regular IDF guys do not like it but when push comes to shove they will stand as one and argue the details later.

    Remember this, and mark it well. Lucifer/Satan tried to con Jesus by offering Him the world, which is now HIS anyway – He won it at Calvary and at the resurrection. The Devil wants his world back, and the only way to do it was by conning the whole world, and he is almost there, but at the last, when he makes his big play, God will go “Check mate, MATE!

    Read the back of the book, WE WIN!

  111. Fundamentally, their social conditioning, is a form of trauma based mind control anchored in ritual abuse and sacrifice, including human sacrifice – in essence they are trained to be sociopaths, to cover over their conscience with the tables of their law and to fill their temples with their oral traditions. Have you seen them do the rooster sacrifice thing? What’s that about?

  112. Just watched the video. There was a video of a Hamas spokesman giving an interview. Pity there wasn’t a surgical strike on him, and the other thugs on motorbikes. Israel should just be strong and go ahead. Hamas are the scum of the earth.

    Total scum who should be eradicated.

  113. “All of my siblings and me married people of Jewish blood – go figure – what are the odds – 5 of us.”

    I’d love to be at one of you family gatherings Ian. Must be incredible conversation around the dinner table.

    Black Widow Spirit? Yeah I think my wife has a couple of those… 🙂

  114. “Total scum who should be eradicated.”

    So, you dont think the government of the West Bank have a right to exist? Yet jump up and down when they say the same about Israel.

    You still havent answered my question, where would you draw the line and say “Israel’s gone too far this time”

    You’ve tacitly supported Israel committing terrorist acts to blame the Palestinians.

    You’ve suggested genocide.

    What could they do that would cause you to criticise them.

  115. Actually, you asked Bones and Steve. I didn’t know you were asking me.

    I believe Israel has the right to defend itself against attacks using force. If that means Hamas officials are killed, I’m okay with that.

    Those guys who dragged the man behind their motobikes? I’d be okay with them being shot.

    I am obviously opposed to the extermination of Palestinian civlians.

    Not sure why you’d even bother asking.

    And if the gaza people keep voting in Hamas knowing that they will be continually supporting suicide bombers and rocket attacks targeting civlians, I would even go so far as to say that if I were living in Israel, I’d be okay with just taking over Gaza.

    Basically, I think we should find an island, take away all guns and put Hamas and other terrorists there and also put the ratbags who abused the French woman on the Melboune bus.

    And of course maybe you and Bones can live there and start a church.

    In which case, I’ll start a blog and list all your mistakes, and maybe critique your sermons line for line.

    Hamas, the Bogans, Prophet Bones, and Wazza (because they’d need a little sanity and you’re not half crazy yet).

    🙂 Mix that with your week and smoke it.

  116. DId you guys see that bus incident? Maybe there should be a post on why Australia has totally gone to the dogs.

  117. So you draw the line at total extermination but are happy to consider imprisonment on some island.

    You were also OK with innocent civilians dying as “collataral damage”. And you support Israel committing terrorist acts for the purpose of blaming Palestinians.

    But you are outraged when someone verbally abuses a woman on a bus.

    You see that round shiny metallic object at your feet? That’s your moral compass. It might be a good idea to pick it up and get re-acquainted with it.

  118. “So you draw the line at total extermination but are happy to consider imprisonment on some island.”

    I believe in imprisonment for terrorists yes. “Hamas and other terrorists” You don”t? What do you think should happen to people who are firing rockets on civilians?

    “You were also OK with innocent civilians dying as “collataral damage”.”

    No, now you are being as nutso as Bones. I am saying that it is folly to not try to stop people from firing rockets at you because there is a chance that a civilian could be killed by mistake.

    Do you understand that? How many examples in history do I have to give? Would you like a hypothetical? Or are you just trying to be antagonistic for the sake of it? German civilians died in the process of fighting German soldiers. That’s a fact. If the Allied forces only used weapons if there was zero probability of a German civlian casualty how many more Jews and Germans would have died.

    “And you support Israel committing terrorist acts for the purpose of blaming Palestinians.”
    Can’t remember ever saying that. And I don’t know what you’re talking about to be honest. What I am saying is that Hamas has been firing rockets on civilians and basically all govts support Israel”s right to fight back. The fact that you don’t puts you at odds with Gillard, Obama, Clinton, and just about every world leader I’ve read about.

    “But you are outraged when someone verbally abuses a woman on a bus.”

    Yes, I think they were punks. Thugs. I’d like to beat them up.
    They should be made to apologize before they are whipped in public. Or just let me at them.

    “You see that round shiny metallic object at your feet? ”

    NO there is none. You really need to stay away from drugs, or is it just that defending the indefensible, and condemning the right of a country to defend it’s women and children from being murdered by vicious terrorist thugs has finally led you to a state of mental illness?

    No metallic objects. Perhaps instead of looking for metallic objects you could go searching for your lost sanity and sense of justice?
    They might be there somewhere hiding in the deepest recesses of your mind. (which is so shallow, the search should be over in a few seconds).

    (sorry – just wanted to use that line one day – no offense : )

  119. ‘“So you draw the line at total extermination but are happy to consider imprisonment on some island.”

    Okay, I just gave that some more thought. How about extermination on an island…?
    (this is for murdering Hamas – not innocent Palestinians so don’t go twisting things. That’s devilish.

  120. but re the bus incident? yeah, pathetic. Filthy language on TV in movies, more unacceptable nudity and sex scenes on TV, the drift away from the church, the lack of teaching of absolutes – yeah, society is going to the dogs.

    And the driver was probably too scared to do anything. What a country its become. Or were they always like that in Melbourne….

  121. Q, I think you missed my point about Israel stirring shit in Gaza. The Palestinians area as thick as guano, even thicker than most Christians. Getting them amped up to do something stupid is not difficult, but it is a prison ghetto for God’s sake man. The Zionists stole their land – are you so ill informed? This makes me very indignantly angry, I am sorry to say. The truly God honoring Jews want no part of this – just like you want no part of abortion or the death penalty – oh shit, you are all for that, I forgot…

    Come on man, wake up – they are murdering Ashkenazim thugs who stole Palestine and hoodwinked a bunch of real God fearing Jews into going along with the scam, and then shipping a shitload of Zionist Communazis from Russia – Mafia style crime syndicates which specialize in trafficking prostitutes from countries like Moravia which have been impoverished by Jewish bankers to coral a ready supply of poor hot chicks for Jewish cocks. I am sorry guys but this really gets me seeing red – Communist filth Red. My sister may be a Marxist but I think Marx was a filthy mongrel – a vessel to dishonor.

    That testimony I posted about my encounter with Jesus and the martyr, I guess you dismissed it or did not read it. Years later, I sought out the story online and found a picture of the father of the boy. he was an older man, very old, and I heard in my heart that he was of the seed of “Abraham”. His son was quite young, much younger, and was his only child ad he had no wife, his family farm which had been in his family for many generations had been stolen and his son and he had been reduced to poverty while they watched grinning Lucifer worshiping Talmudist Jews take his home. He gave up his son as a sacrifice – his son took it upon himself to become a sacrifice – a martyr. Now the funny thing is, while I expect that the Jewish teens also were in the Paradise of God (Jewish section) the only one I was shown was the Palestinian boy with Jesus.

    The amazing thing about his father was that the man i saw was the complete opposite of the image I had formed from the Rooters News Agency report.

    By the way sunshine, do you know why Jewish porn stars perfected the, ahem, “money shot”? Because the Talmud allows them to bang whoever they want to, including children, as long as they do not “spend their seed” in them. Have you any idea how sick some of these people really are? They are worse than the Germans – and that is really saying something! But then we are not to know any man after the flesh – Oh God how I still struggle with that betimes.

    By the way, try and find an abortion clinic in Gaza. I am sorry mate but people are putty in the hand of the propagandists and pornographers, who are mostly Jewish or Catholic. Mossad or CIA (Catholic Intelligence Agency). It is all part of the seduction of American and of the world. How have Commies always worked? By luring people into compromising situations and then blackmailing them.

    The Jews play the Palestinians (and many Christians) like puppets – they call them dogs – they stole their land. Just put yourself in their shoes – what if someone moved into your neighborhood and decided that they liked the look of your lot?

    There is no excuse for defiling a corpse or killing a neighbor, nor for anyone. This is all about hard hearts, and implacable evil. The Devil wants his world back, and the only way he can legally do it is to con EVERYONE into signing it over and to get everyone into agreement, and that takes Babylon perfected, but it will never be completed, and he will try an kill off the hold-outs so he can get total agreement, but that will never happen as it is Chaos at work…

  122. “what if someone moved into your neighborhood and decided that they liked the look of your lot?”

    First, I wouldn’t fire rockets at their children for months and not expect them to shoot back.

    Second, if 6 million of them had been killed and the world made a place for them, I wouldn’t strap bombs to my kids and send them to blow up their kids. But that’s just me.

    Lovely language there Ian. Is there a spirit of filth at signposts that makes Christians have mouths like sewers?

  123. One of the things that this thread highlights s the misrepresentation of facts by Hamas sympathisers who have an abhorrence of the existence of an Israeli state.

    Unbelievable to see otherwise sane men like wazza and Bones twist what people say to fit their ill-conceived notion of the people they oppose.

    The way wazza just turned around Qs actual words was even more telling than Bones bending of mine.

    I personally don’t think it’s worth giving such logic the time of day.

    Unfortunately Israel has to give this form of response some its attention because they face it every day in the words of propagandists and much of the media.

    Until reason is restored and people are able to take at face value what others say this situation will persist, and the cycle of violence and accusations against Israel will continue and escalate.

  124. Doesn’t matter Steve. I need to give this a rest. It’s time for me to give myself totally to the calling of God on my life. I obviously don’t have a gifting or ministry in the area of discussion on blogs. Haven’t convinced one person of what I think is blatantly obvious.
    So, I have to admit that I’m just not good with reasoning and that engaging in debate is just not my thing.

  125. I was using words for effect – like Paul calling his qualifications as a Pharisee and his former religion shit, or crap, or dung. Please do not be so precious. The facts of rhe mattter are simpland indisputable – Israel stole the Lannd – israel created the Gaza Ghetto, Israel has perpetuate the conflict through sanctions and punitive measures whil they steal Gaza’s gas by horizontal drilling. They claim it is a right given them by God.

    I think your knowledge of how Israel came into being is singularly lacking. But it is a huge and tortuous subject.

    Basically, it is part of a Luciferian program of world domination – of winning back the world to the Devil. But God will turn it on its head. You need to understand what the Army of the Assyrians is and the war they shall fight. Remember, when Jesus cam eht first time, the devil’s mob were pretty much running the show, and now they are again – just look at Obama – hello – or that puppet Gillard or Key. Its so sickening the way they all cavort and kill.

    Some of you guys have got Rose colored CZ glasses on. Like mind control robots – Jews can do no harm, Jew is good, Jew is God, blah, blah, blah…how do they get away with it – such insufferable gall.

    The Zionists control the media so much – in Oz there are only two sources, both Zionist. You guys don’t seem to get it – the Zionist ARE the hordes of God and Magog who would come up and cover the land. Is that so hard to see? Or is that too subtle for you to understand? The Russians are not going to invade Israel, they are ALREADY THERE RUNNING THE PLACE like a private fiefdom.

  126. No probs Ian. For the record, I’ve never said Jews are good, or have done no wrong. I don’t send them money, have never been to Israel on a pilgrimage, have never signed a “Support Israel” petition, don’t celebrate Jewish feasts, don’t think that what happens in Israel is also happening in the spiritual realm in the church, etc etc.

    It wouldn’t even bother me if everyone left Israel and lived in Africa.

    So i look at this from a very secular viewpoint (which is unusual).

    As for being “precious”, nothing offends me. I’ve heard everything.

    I just don’t know why Christians need to use language and refer to things that I wouldn’t want my kids exposed to. There was a time when polite speech was considered not only a virtue for Christians, but was common decency in normal society – even by rough men who used different language when they were on a football field or on a jobsite.

    BUt even then, most Christian men showed a change in their language.

    But it’s not a biggie. Nobody agrees with me about that either.

    I’m a relic from another era obviously.

  127. Who’s twisting words Steve. This is old ground which we’ve been over before. Those who think Israel can do no wrong v those who see Israel’s sins. Of course to criticise Israel is to be labelled a hamas sympathiser or nazi or bigot.

  128. Bones, I have never said Israel can do no wrong.
    See Israel’s sins? Every country has sins and is imperfect and has done unjust things.

    Why does everyone keep saying that Steve and I think Israel can do no wrong?

    At least, I can have some comfort that I am on the same page as Obama for at least this last week. He isn’t condemning Israel and talking about it’s sins.

    Criticizing Israel doesn’t make someone a nazi or a bigot. But if in the last few days you are on the side of Hamas -….then I’d say you are a Hamas sympathiser – right?

    And that would make you at the very least someone with a very radical view of things at the moment.

    There are times when it’s right to criticize Israel (if you feel you must) but this last week hasn’t been one of them.

  129. Bones, proving my point exactly:
    Those who think Israel can do no wrong v those who see Israel’s sins.

    You’re consistent, I’ll give you that!

    Do you teach English Literature or Grammar at you school? If you do, how do you encourage students to read and take note of what is being said in an accurate way? Or do you encourage selective reading?

    Or is it some kind of science you teach? Do you train them in noting the facts to derive the evidence, or skim over them to contrive a preconceived opinion?

    Even if you teach sport you have to make sure everyone knows which position they take on the field and not to deviate from it for their own aims.

    You actually twist things to suit your position. No doubt about it.

    For instance, when did I ever say Israel can do no wrong?

    Nowhere.

    Are you getting my point, Bones, or are you too self-absorbed and one-eyed to bother?

  130. You see, Bones, when you use exaggeration as an argument you do yourself a disservice. Since I’ve said, more than once, that everyone, including Israel, needs Christ and needs to repent, and also said it is wrong to kill innocents even in a war, there is no way I am saying Israel can do no wrong.

    If you did’t know that you are either unable to absorb what others write or willing to ignore what they say or a liar, or just plain thicker than I think you really are.

    A thick person I can excuse, but a wilfully ignorant one of your intelligence I can’t. I can only forgive you for your presumption.

  131. I’ve posted questions before about settlements, the forceable evictions of Palestinians from their homes including Christians, Israel’s support for hamas to encourage division and civil war, the assassination of Rabin and Netanyahu’s demolition of the Oslo peace accords.

    The response, if there is one, is but hamas is bad or you must support hamas.

    There are other hotspots around the world such as Chechnya and the Baltic states, but Israel is the biggy. It’s like a second home for some.

    btw I don’t mind Israel building a wall for self defence. History however tells us that walls are unreliable defences.

  132. Well, you know Bones, if you and wazza together are going to play the devil’s advocates, guess how you’ll be treated?

    Sometimes I think you’re arguing against your own imaginary combatant. Doesn’t it drive you crazy?

  133. The currency of Babylon is agreement. Propaganda is used to forge agreement, it is also used at the same time to divide and conquer dissent. No one on the planet is as adept at this than the Supreme Sanhedrin of ha Shatan who convene, coveniently, in Israel.

    Yes there was a burnt offering to Lucifer termed the Holocaust, which involved Slavs, Gypsies, Jews, Christians – many Christians of conscience instead of those wholly deception fell into line behind their furious leader. Jews were involved in the planning and operation of Nazi Germany, and Hitler was a mere puppet, albeit a particularly perverted and nasty one, whose skills at crowd manipulation were taught by a Jewish illusionist and mesmerizer. It is joked that Romans 13 was his and Goebbels favorite scripture. Of the 17 at Nuremberg, atheist Goebbels committed suicide and 13 Lutherans and 3 Catholics were hanged. Germany was defeated but Nazism relocated to the Americas – something like 2000 top German scientists (Operation paper clip officially said 88).

    In 1919, while whipping up support for European Jewry and passing the hat around, the claim was made that if the West did not act soon, up to 7 million Europeans, 6 million of whom were Jews, would die. They do like that number 6, yes? Five social experiments or colonies – Britain, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the home base Israel.

    None of this truly makes sense until you wake up to the plot and who is central planner thereof – Lucifer/Satan/Molloch/Beelzebub/Khrishna – it is all the same thing, and his female manifestation, Jezebel, aka, Diana, aka Liberty, aka Columbia….all the same thing, the same spirit. This is not about people so much as it is about the contention of the Ages.

    Where Xian’s are so deluded is that they think that Israel was established by God in 1948 – same year the first Beast was born, what a coincidence, and many will sign on and fall into line before him. The Rhodes/Rothschild Round Table plan for world domination presents their master work of deception – Prince Charles. And the congregation said, “You are kidding” and the preacher said – study it out people, seek God on this wise, lest you fall for the lies.

    The revelation of Lucifer at the top of the Pyramid of world power is that he is in fact God and that what we call God is Satan. In short, they have fully gone round the twist and can do and excuse anything. But even from this degree of delusion people have been redeemed. 16 of the 17 Nazis of Nuremberg repented before being offered up.

    But did you guys know that on November 8, the spark that caused this latest eruption was a 13yr old Palestinian boy playing soccer was killed by an Israeli sniper? That the Hamas “militant” was murdered because he had engaged with an Israeli Peace Acitvist to try and nut out a pasting peace?

    This is all setting the stage for the MAN OF PEACE – the “special” envoy, acceptable to Islam, Jewry and Christendom – our man of the moment and COMING KING, Prince Charlemagne and his murderous beastly brat, Helicopter Gunship Harry.

    The Sun King, William, will be the perfect sacrifice. Just get yourself some info on Agenda 21. Why did the Aussie geo-engineered drought happen? Why did so much of your prime farmland end up in the hands of Rothschild owned Banks?

    For we who are of British descent, to look into the mirror and realize that we have been unwittingly backing the bad guys against the other bad guys so that we may live a peaceable life is too hard to swallow. We are too inculturated (my word) into Babylon. The hardest thing you will ever do is leave the Beastly metropolis of Babylon – to abandon Old Jerusalem, which is also known as Sodom and as Egypt, for New Jerusalem, which is from above, a City and Temple not made with hands, forever in the heavens. The Temple of God which you are.

  134. Sorry about the garbled sentence in first paragraph.

    As we are the first to see the Light of the New Day, I get the first word in! LOL.

    Notice our volcanoes are brewing up? In 1886, Mt Tarawera erupted. Just prior to the event, numerous witnesses saw a ghostly apparition of a Waka, or war canoe, full of warriors, on the lake. The local Kaumatua (wise man) said that it meant an eruption and many deaths. Sure enough, suddenly and without warning, Mt Tarawera erupted explosively, burying the 8th wonder of the world, the pink and white terraces.

    The 100yrs plus Kaumatua said, that the time when the terraces would be found would signal the time of the end. They were rediscovered under a lake just prior to the CHCH EQ.

    At diametrically opposite points of the globe, there is a storm brewing – for us I believe that it will mean Supernatural disasters and ultimately. Federation of what is left with Oz. For Israel it will mean Apocalyptic war. The Spiritual significance of this conflict and these disasters will be enormous. most notably as it will presage the Second Advent of the Son of Man.

    By the way, I missed that other Zionist experiment, Russia, and that makes seven – six “nations” and Zion to rule them all with its own rod of iron, the Noahide Laws for Gentiles and the Jewish Law for them

    Edmund Burke said that all that is required for the triumph of evil is that GOOD MEN do nothing. I say “Nay good sir, all that is required for the triumph of evil is that certain men continue in the delusion of their own inherent goodness and encourage others to do the same. Good is just evil with a smiley face. No man is GOOD, except God – let every man be a liar and God alone be True. We can all agree on one thing – everyone needs The Lord Jesus Christ.

    Rev 17:
    17. “For God has put it in (given it to) their hearts to do His will only (and to do one will only), and give their kingship to that demon, until these words of God are fulfilled.
    18. “And the woman that you saw, is that great city (World Empire) which rules the kings of the world.

  135. And just for good measure, when Peter was talking about respecting kings, he meant those who possess the kingdom – for are we not all made to be kings and priests? Are we not the kings of the kingdom? If it is His good will to give to you the Kingdom then do you not become, in Christ,as a king, submitted as a servant? Just like Him? So that you may indeed do the greater works? And if you give up your kingship to that demon?

    Prince Charles said, “I have no real power of my own, but I have an AWE-FULL lot of INFLUENCE!”

    The people want a King, Samuel! WTF for?

    So, God will give them a king, and a leader after their own hearts…are you getting this? Discern the times folks.

    Obama is a devil – he will lead America into darkness.

  136. And lastly, for Bones, a curt and paste.

    Lord Acton on NWO and Zionism

    See the original at: WHAT IS “ZIONISM”?

    http://etherzone.com/2002/mako121702.shtml

    Lord Acton said, “The truth will come out when powerful people no longer wish to suppress it.” Since Sept. 11, more and more people are turning to the “conspiratorial” or “suppressed” view of history for explanations.

    In 1891, Cecil Rhodes started a secret society called the “Round Table” dedicated to world hegemony for the shareholders of Bank of England and their allies. These priggish aristocrats, including the Rothschilds, realized they must control the world to safeguard their monopoly on money creation) as well as global resources.

    The same folks control the U.S. Federal Reserve and other major central banks. http://www.savethemales.ca/260602.html

    They were united also by a commitment to freemasonry, which at the top, is dedicated to the destruction of Christianity, the worship of Lucifer, and the building of a pagan temple in Jerusalem. They see most of humanity as “useless eaters” and they pioneered eugenics to decrease population and weed out inferior specimens. The eventual annihilation of non-Zionist Jews was rooted in this English movement.

    In 1897, the first Zionist Congress took place in Basle. In 1904, the founder of Zionism Theodore Herzl died at age 44 under suspicious circumstances. The movement was taken over by the Round Table. The purpose was to use it and Communism to advance their plan for world hegemony.

    During the same week in November 1917, the Bolshevik Revolution took place and the Balfour Declaration promised Palestine to the Jews.

    The Round Table group planned three world wars to degrade, demoralize and destroy mankind, rendering it defenceless.

    The Third World War, now beginning, pits the Zionists against the Muslims. http://www.savethemales.ca/071002.html

    The purpose of Zionism is to help colonize the Middle East, subvert Islam, and control the oilfields. For this reason Israel continues to receive blank checks. (One analyst estimates the US taxpayer has spent $1.7 trillion on Israel.) This is why the founding of Israel took precedence over the welfare of the Jewish people.

    Israel has little to do with the Jewish people. Zionism, Communism, Feminism, Nazism, are creations of the same satanic cabal. These ‘isms are means to the final goal, a neo feudal global dictatorship. FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover referred to this when he said: “The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists”.

    As unwitting overseers, Israelis will continue as victims of “compulsory suicide.” Americans too are being fitted for this role. Sept. 11 was an example.

    Arab terrorism is also backed by this cabal.

    Bin Laden, Bush Serve the Same Master

    http://www.savethemales.ca/251102.html

    Osama Bin Laden made more than 260 phone calls to England between 1996-1998.

    The aim is to contrive a “war of civilizations” as an excuse to grind down both Muslim states and the West to create a global police state.

    What I have been calling “compulsory suicide” is satanic “culling.” The constant reference by Zionist and other leaders to “blood sacrifice” refers to the practice of human sacrifice. Apparently energy is released when people are slaughtered. Recently U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage said the Hezbollah owes the U.S. a “blood debt.”)

    Our rulers design wars as offerings to Lucifer. They find slaughter and mayhem exhilarating, as long as it is someone else who is sacrificed.

  137. By the way, Israeli hostilities began on PC’s birthday, the 14th, 6 days after a 13yr old boy was shot and sacrificed by a sniper. Charles arrived here on 10:11:12 (6) at 21:30hrs (6) on the 6th day of the week for a 6 day stay which included his birthday on a solar eclipse, New Moon and Diwali. You don’t think that was planned?

  138. Ian your ramblings are boring me, really – do you have anything else to offer than these inane numeracy contrivances?

  139. Many people throughout history who were angel’s advocates have been badly treated too. Maybe thats whats happening here?

    For instance, when did I ever say Israel can do no wrong?

    Nowhere.

    But I’ve asked you twice to give an example of an action Israel could take that would be wrong, and you have not answered.

  140. The IDF nailed the very guy who was trying to develop a peace plan. That will not do – the Man of Peace has to do that – and his name is Prince Charles. The reason why i point out the gematria is ‘cos that is how these global architects work. Like the dogs that they are. they like to leave their mark.

    Most Angrycans cannot handle that their leadership are and luminaries are Luciferians.

    Many of the faithful get loaded with demons when they do their Elfish course, sorry, Alpha course.

    You need to do an Aleph and Tav course.

    Rowan Williams – Druid Bard. Liz – Druid Bard, Queen of the May, Order of the Garter, Star of the Orient, Titular head of the Circe of England. Rowan Atkinson, Druid High Priest of England. Druids practice human sacrifice, did way back when and still do. Drudism goes back to Babylon and beyond.

    England is a very dark place – lot’s of human sacrifice, but perhaps not as bad as Belgium, or even NZ. You guys really do not get this stuff, do you? Which is why instead of reigning in life by one Christ Jesus, many will give their kingship to that demon and the BEAST shall be given POWER over the Saints, to subjew and to kill them.

    Unless of course you are an historicist, the “official” postion of the C of E. By the way, did you know that BOC Gases, owned by a German company which is in turn owned by Liz, REFUSED to supply Nitrogen to the Pike River Mine rescuers? The orders came from Head Office. British Occidental Corporation helped to make sure the 16 miners and 13 contractors would not be coming out. BOC numerises to 11, as does 29. 161 Days later, on the 29:4:11, the 66th anniversary of the marriage of Adolph and Eva, Wills and Kate were wed. 29+4=33. 33+11=44.

    This is the Magical Masonic number sequence 11, 22, 33, 44.
    Today is 22:11 = 33. Our next PM was installed as leader of the Labour (Communist) Party 13:12:11. He is the 33rd leader of Labour and 13th leader of the Opposition. The Labour Caucus vote was 22-11. There is more on that one, heaps more.

    He is Satan’s man, like Key, like PC, like Gillard, Like Obama, like Cameron…and all who contradict Jesus Christ – but amazingly, He still speaks the Truth over us, for He cannot deny himself.

    Bored? You won’t be soon…have any of you studied up on the Noahide Laws? Chop, chop!

  141. wazza,
    I’ve asked you twice to give an example of an action Israel could take that would be wrong, and you have not answered.

    Not so.

    I know these threads can become long, but I already mentioned what I consider overhanded – any surgical strike which misses its target and hits noncombatants – which Q then responded to.

    The problem is that Hamas embeds itself in civilian areas to launch missiles. It’s a no win situation for Israel.

    If Israel are targeting tunnels and access points for smuggling arms into Gaza, then they are legitimate targets, but short of an invasion to shut down the tunnels by force, which would lead to global condemnation, Israel can only use surgical strikes to destroy tunnels and weapon infrastructure as long as Hamas continue the bombardment of civilian Israeli targets.

    This is a most uncivil war.

    I repeated this information later in he thread because both you and Bones accused me of supporting any Israeli action, which I don’t. You must be missing the flow of conversation.

    I also deplore nonsurgical strikes which target civilian areas, which would mean all of the hundreds of Hamas rockets fired int Israel, and now, a civilian bus attack.

    It could be, of course, that Ian’s often nonsensical religious conspiracy ramblings detour the thread so much that no one can keep up with the key issues being discussed.

  142. Ian,
    I really think it’s time for you to either get with the program or put a sock in it, because what you are doing is very similar to a scramble device to interfere with transmission.

    Your comments are welcome, but you must know by now that most of what you are saying is so far outside of reason that it takes a mountain of patience to even decipher one single sentence of what you write.

    Maybe you understand what you’re saying, but, in fact, it is all gobbledegook to the average person, so, please, for the sake of at least one discernible thread for us to work on, speak in small bites of comprehensible English.

  143. Maybe someone should tell Hamas that Israel is far more likely to shut down the barriers and stop any offensive if Hamas were to enter a process of peaceful activity in the Gaza strip for a sustained period.

    As long as they are importing weapons of destruction to aim at Israel hey showing that they are able to import goods into the strip, and that their primary import is offensive weaponry.

    They are not being used as weapons of defence, because the design and purpose of this kind of missile is offence. Further, they initiated this round of conflict by sending rockets into civilian Israeli areas.

    This, as the Israelis have said, is intolerable.

    Now we have Hamas, after the cease-fire, claiming victory, and that they plan for a cease-fire ‘forced’ Israel to comply with their plan. This is the kind of moronic rhetoric which is so devoid of any kind of diplomacy or peaceful intent that it can only be seen by israel as both derogatory and provocative.

    In short, Hamas have no intention of showing any kind of peaceful resolution in the region, but, rather, will continue their cat and mouse game well into the future.

  144. Steve, if there is are rockets being launched at a school or hospital from a building in Gaza, or Manly, and the only way to stop that is to make a surgical strike, then I think it’s valid to do that. Sometimes that surgical strike will miss.

    I think some people think that weaponry is so sophisticated that nothing ever misses it’s target. Israel is trying it’s hardest to not kill civilians. If they weren’t worried about civilian casualties (like Hamas) there would hardly be any people living in Gaza because Israel could just drop bombs continually.

    Neither Israel or the US or Britain is ever happy about civilian casualites. But it’s tragic that every time a civilian is ever killed Israel or the US is condemned as if they are heavy handed.

    That’s what I mean about surgical strikes.

    The world has become a crazy place. When terrorists strike, it seems that people are always wanting to find out what their grievances are – even if they are 10 or 50 or 500 years old. But then they hold the target of the terrorists to impossible standards.

    Steve, you are an oasis of sanity. The lone voice crying in the wilderness… lol

  145. Steve, you have given an example of something Israel has done which is “overhanded” but then immediately go on to justify it.

    What is an example of something that Israel could do (or has done) that is plain wrong – no qualifications – unsupportable.

    I’ve given you the suggestion of the Lavon affair – planned terrorism for the purpose of blackening the name of Israels opponents. You have declined to comment on whether you disapprove. You dont have to use this example, any example would be acceptable.

    A while back, you said that you recognise your own bias and claimed that I dont recognise mine. Are you sure you are not being biased now?

    You may not agree with my arguments, but at least I use arguments!! Not appeals to prejudice and lazy ad-hominems.

  146. Just finished reading Antony Beevor’s Battle of Crete.

    The Germans had a word for Native Cretans who had hacked up German soldiers. They called them terrorists.

  147. Indeed, one of the first terrorist groups was the Zealots, a Jewish sect which committed terrible acts against the benevolent Roman empire.

    Another was the ironically named “Sons of Liberty”, a violent American group who committed unspeakable actions against the legitimate British government. Unfortunately they have been unable to be sufficiently controlled and have tried to form some sort of terrorist government of their own in North America. This will take some time for the British to get under control – but of course any extent can be justified when you are dealing with terrorists.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_terrorism

  148. ………..

    And your point is Wazza and Bones? People have called different people terrorists in history. Great. Do you want a medal for cutting-edge historical research..??? Had to go all the way to….Wikipedia. Impressive…

    Now armed with all that vast knowledge, what do you do with it? Decide that Hamas aren’t terrorists? Tell Israel not to do anything about it, because Hama are just a little miffed and understood?

    Basically, Hamas did everything they could to kill civilians in Israel.
    Israel finally fought back killing some Hamas guys. When Hamas realized they were losing they called for a truce. Now they call themselves heroes, and what do you think they will do?

    I say for the next few months/years they will try to procure more weapons from Iran or wherever and get ready for their next strike.

  149. The point is, Q

    There is no agreed definition of terrorist.

    One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter

    So you cant say we should wipe X out because X is a terrorist. Its more complicated than that. Most societies could be described as committing terrorism at one stage or another.

  150. So this was what it was all about eh?

    A deal to end the bloody eight-day conflict in Gaza and Israel came into effect early this morning, drawing hundreds of Gazans onto the street to celebrate after both sides continued to trade rocket and artillery fire until the final minutes before the truce began.

    Amid the celebrations Israeli drones flew overhead, a reminder that while the latest hostilities may have stopped, the underlying conflict is far from over.

    The deal – mediated by Egypt – included a promise to end hostilities from both sides and opened the possibility of relaxing border crossings that could ease Israel’s five-year air, land and sea blockade on Gaza

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/celebrations-greet-gaza-ceasefire-20121122-29r47.html#ixzz2CwDwuZYo

  151. Q, you make me laugh. Look what the king of the North did to the King of the South – Gaddafi. The highest standard of living in the African Continent reduced to a hellish mess of chaos and division. You do not know who you serve, do you? The Axis of Evil is Tel Aviv, Rome, London and Washington. You really think the devil’s mob are the good guys, right?

  152. Hey Bones, NZ’ers and Cretans have a great mutual respect – many Kiwis who melted into the mountains of Crete fought alongside them for 4yrs and in fact trained and organized the “terrorists”, They developed and incredible bond, such that if you go there to day and say you are a Kiwi, they fall over themselves to make you welcome. The Kiwis killed a lot of Krauts on Crete, which the Germans took at a terrible price, the flower of Hitler’s airborne troops. It is a fascinating story of brutal savagery and outstanding valor and honor and also of the ignominy of defeat.

    And the rich bastards that started the whole thing drank martinis and smoked cigars as their coffers swelled, the cannon fodder felled and the coffins were filled. War is a racket, but it makes for great stories.

  153. Honestly guys, look for the day when His Rogering Horseness, Ponce Charleyman will broker a Peace deal in the Middle East.

    By the way Q, my apologies, I was being way too harsh, but your conceptual continuity has me going “YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!” But I don’t want to smash my racket, but THEIRS!

  154. I’m well aware of the Kiwis and Aussies relationships with the Cretans. The bloody nose Jerry got there caused Hitler to never again use massed airborne assaults. They were very close to getting their arses handed to them as it was.

    And Auchinleck’s moronic decision in not defending the airfields.

  155. “And Auchinleck’s moronic decision in not defending the airfields.”

    One could perhaps posit that the defence of the Cretans was made the responsibility of a cretin.

  156. “In the 5th Corps I first served under Auchinleck…..I cannot recall that we ever agreed on anything” Monty.

  157. “The point is, Q
    There is no agreed definition of terrorist.
    One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”

    Yes, that’s obvious. And what’s obvious to me is that sometimes some people are wrong. Get it?

    There are mafia who kill people who think they are just nice guys providing for their families. They are wrong. Get it?

    There are some people who think they are martyrs when they are terrorists. Everyone can call anyone a terrorist, but that doesn’t mean that because of that someone getting attacked by “real terrorists” shouldn’t listen to Wazza, and think…..oh well, maybe I’m the real terrorist .bomb away….

    That’s my point. Your point is ridiculous. That’s like saying the other side is always the enemy. Or the other side is wrong. Sure, everyone thinks that. Hitler thought he was being reasonable.

    So what??!?!?! He was evil, and it would have been better if someone had made a surgical strike on him and killed him earlier even if a civilian or two were killed.

    You don’t seem to understand that. Odd.

  158. “So this was what it was all about eh?

    A deal to end the bloody eight-day conflict in Gaza and Israel came into effect early this morning, drawing hundreds of Gazans onto the street to celebrate after both sides continued to trade rocket and artillery fire until the final minutes before the truce began.”

    And your point is…?

    I’ll make a prediction Bones. Not a prophecy, but a prediction. Within three years, but probably one, Hama will fire some rockets into Israel. They have probably just run out of rockets, but they will be getting more – probably through an open border.

    So, this is what it’s all about? It was all about Israel defending themselves. Like I said. Gillard, Obama, Hillary, Q and Steve thought so. Bones, Wazza and Ian didn’t.

    I’m glad hostilities are finished. But, Israel has finished in a bad position – and they will pay for it later.

  159. “I’m glad you werent in charge in WW2. You would have called the French resistance terrorists and wiped them out.”

    No, no, no. See you obviously have really bad comprehension.

    I’m the one who looks at that conflict and thinks the Germans were the bad guys. The French resistance were heroes.
    The Japanese were also the bad guys. No doubt, Bones can talk about evil American bombing on Japan, or the fact that Germany was made to pay to much in repatriations, or that the Japanese navy was unilaterally limited by the US and Britain, or that Japanese were denied citizenship in the US, or that they were bad for cutting off oil supplies and other reasons why actually the Germans and Japanese were misunderstood, and it was the Allied forces who were wrong – and of course Ian will come up with the theory that it was all the zionists anyway.

    I don’t know about every conflict in the world. Don’t claim to. Chechna? other places? LIsten BOnes, I don/t want to get into another round the world conflict in 80 days going back centuries about who was right and whether the Opium Wars were fair etc.

    But……..sigh …..I supported the right of Israel to defend themselves when Hamas was firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel.

    And like I said….so did most sane people in the world.

    btw, if you want some interesting reading, go browse through Hamas Charter. Lovely people. I don’t think you can negotiate with people like that. Israel has once more. But just remember, I said it first – it’s a matter of time before Hamas gets more weapons (probably better ones, and they start using them again).

    ANd if Israel responds Wazza and Bones will call their pinko hippie friends, smoke some weed and start hating on Israel again.
    No doubt, it will be at six PM on the 13th, 66 days after Prince Charles sixth cousins birthday. In a rented room which was built by a mason who wore illuminati underwear.

    (sorry…got carried away in that last paragraph) but you get my drift 🙂

  160. “Honestly guys, look for the day when His Rogering Horseness, Ponce Charleyman will broker a Peace deal in the Middle East.”

    It’s classic lines like that that keep me coming back to this site….

    His Rogering Horseness?? 🙂
    I really hope he never reads this website.

    Just in case…..Charles I really liked your speech at the Jubilee and the great things you said about your Mum.
    Please forgive Ian – he’s a Kiwi.
    And, I never voted for a republic….

  161. The Cretans I know locally are as sharp as a tack when it comes to money, but they have big hearts too, and tend to be a little aloof and guarded. That Old World reserve from being screwed over ad nauseum, and of course being a screwer of overs. LOL.

    Now, what did Paul say about Cretans: Notes are Vic’s Aramaic expansion. Note especially the last line in verse 14.

    10. For there are many who do not adhere [to the faith,] whose words are critical and they mislead the people’s opinions, especially those of the circumcised,
    (Judaizers – Hebrews Roots movement – my comment – ungracious as it may seem, but they REALLY annoy me who fall for this, the brain dead propagandized little prats need a good Holy Ghost slap to jar their senses.)
    11. Those whose duty it is to close their mouth, for they have demoralized many households, as they teach what is not Lawful for the sake of evil gain.
    12. One of their prophets said, “Cretians lie in every season, they are savages (evil creatures or beasts) and freeloaders (Lit “idle stomachs” loiterers, beggars, gougers, or moochers).”
    13. And this is a true testimony (there’s a grain of truth in this), therefore be tough in your admonitions on their behalf, so as they may recover their faith.
    14. And so they will not revert to the outdated holocausts (burnt offerings) of the Jews, and the dictates (Commandments) of humanity, those that hate the truth.
    15. For everything that is pure is for the pure; however, to those who are inveterate unbelievers, there is nothing pure, except all their opinions and their very conscious is rotten.
    16. And they confess that they know God, however, with their actions they curse Him, and they are hateful, intolerant and degrading toward everyone who does good.

    All I can say is WOW! Words Of Wonder!

  162. OH man. I’d really like to stop my Mr nice guy ways and talk tougher. but I always think Greg is lurking somewhere and reading, and he’s been so nice lately….
    Reminds me of when I was a kid and the Sunday School teacher said that whenever we sin, Jesus gets sad as he puts a cross next to our name….
    Somewhere, Greg is shaking his head.

    PS, in all seriousness. Wazza, hope things are still good on the home front.

  163. Ian, I assume in your line of work you get to meet a lot of people with money right? You seem to meet a lot of people that I never thought your average Kiwi would.

    Can I ask how and why you started?

  164. Charlie Horse showed the world his princely appendage by doing the morning stretch stark naked in the 90’s and a Propernazi just happened to be 2 K’s away with a tele-porno lens and copped a snap of the Prince’s preposterous pecker, a la the young men of Assyria sindrome. To wit, he is hung like the proverbial. Now, think about the relationship of Assyria and Israel. According to the Rabbis, Assyria, aka Esau, will go amok in the lats days and try to usurp Jacob – probably after Jacob has wiped out Ishmael.

    Now get this, all humans, the devil lost this planet. The only way LEGALLY he can get it back is to get all humanity in agreement. The only way to accomplish this is to wipe out all those who do not agree. See? Simple, this is Satan’s plane – if the ownership of the planet has been given back to man, then the easiest way to get it back is kill everyone, but why stop there, why not destroy creation to really piss God off?

    Have you nay idea how much firepower the yanks have got? Enough to frighten everyone into signing it all over to the UN!

  165. Ian,
    you get my drift

    I haven’t got a clue! I have to stop reading after the first few lines because my mind starts doing backflips! And I read people’s Personal Statements in an education establishment for a living, so I’ve seen most things!

    wazza,
    There is no agreed definition of terrorist.
    One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter

    Maybe, but you can work out that in this kind of war, anyone who walks into a crowded market and detonates a bomb packed with nails isn’t set on merely defending his position.

    The French resistance was mostly targeting military installations, infrastructure and personnel, and they were in a state of declared war.

    Fatah is in a position where it could establish its own peaceful state, where, if it ceased hostilities, Israel, in time, could lift its current security system which vets the transportation of goods in and out of the Gaza strip and controls sea-going vessels.

    Egypt, incidentally, has a similar control in place on their border with Gaza, despite the cries of foul at the way Israel controls its own borders.

    So, despite the outcry of the propagandists, and the Hamas line that they are trapped in a prison,it is a jail of their own choosing and of their own design, as well as being convenient to their purposes in spreading division and a false impression of what is happening in their region.

    So I see their launching of rockets into an otherwise peaceful democratic state like Israel as a definite attempt to terrorise the population, and I see Israel’s response as an attempt to stop the terror.

    In fact, the definition of terrorist is a person who uses terror in pursuit of their political aims.

    Since Israel’s political aims are already in place as a democratic state, their defence of their own citizens could not be called terror. I acknowledge th, post WW2, Israel did use guerrilla warfare to confront the British occupation of Palestine, which contributed to the establishment of their homeland.

    Hamas, however are terrorising Israel in pursuit of their sworn political aim of removing Israel from the face of the earth.

    I acknowledge that, post WW2, Israel did use guerrilla warfare to confront the British occupation of Palestine, which contributed to the establishment of their homeland, which had been as good as promised by Balfour and then rejected.

    I do not condone, nor do I support this form of militance, even with Israel. It is not a reason for other people to engage in similar tactics.

  166. Q, my encountering people of interest and even power is a God thing. I know an Aussie named Willem Bellaard who leaves me for dead in this respect – his little black book is like a who’s who of whose who.

    I do tend to presume a little too much on what people might understand. I have an unusual faith life and have been shepherded through some truly amazing spiritual encounters. I have sense when something does not add up – like when a s child, I was asked to swear allegiance to the Crown and to Lord Baden “Pervy” Powell and I could not. From my early childhood I had a check in my heart about Liz and the Firm and their two face Anglo/British niceness.

    I am also cheeky – and not backward in coming forward as an old boss said. Those whom God calls as prophetic intercessors seem to have the Seer thing happening – they just see stuff that others do not.

    When I read about how with Jesus they said that never before had they heard such words of grace, I asked Him to show me what it was like to listen to Him in His earthly ministry. I was stunned by what He showed me – words of such power and precision – like they were alive with meaning – Words of Life.

    All I could think was, how could you not be so impacted? But then only John and Mary remained faithful to the end – a type of the Father and the Holy Spirit (rendered in the feminine in Aramaic, as in in His image made He them MALE AND FEMALE!)

    To His disciples Jesus spoke and still speaks plainly, but to others He spake and speaks in parables, so that seeing they may no see and hearing they may not hear. The Bible is writ in such a way as that if you approach its mysteries and metaphors with preconceptions, with theology and traditions of men and doctrines of demons in your being, He will answer you according to your delusion – but the word He sows in your heart is the very thing which will eventually set you free. We receive it as validation of our beliefs yet He has spoken as it were a parable to us, so that seeing….

    He that comes to God must believe that HE IS, and HE IS THE REWARDER of those that diligently seek (to know) HIM! It does not say he who comes to God must believe WHAT HE IS, WHO HE IS, OR HOW HE IS, but THAT HE IS. Then He will reveal Himself by the Son and by the Spirit and by the Father.

    In summer 1983, I had begun attending a WOF Church called Bethel in Christchurch. After a few weeks, it occurred to me that most of these folk had experienced nothing like what I had and that I was “unusual”. I hear so many opinions from these folk who jumped on me like dogs on fresh meat and began to proselytize. One day I stood in my back yard, under a beautiful clear blue sky and said, “God, everyone has their opinion about you but it seems to me that they really don’t know you, they just thing that they do – so I want you to teach me about YOU, their opinions cannot be trusted as they are all different.”

    Immediately I saw/was shown (now I am about to lose most of the CONgregation, but here goes) a huge equilateral golden triangle of glory – in the lower right corner (my left) it said WORD, in the lower left (my right) it said SPIRIT and in the top corner FATHER and in the middle GOD. It began to move toward the earth at the WORD corner, and I saw that all of God was behind the WORD POINT and then it began to move toward the earth at the SPIRIT POINT and again, all that was God was behind the invasive point. He said “This is how I Am”.

    The as I was mediating while gardening, The Lord spoke to me and said “Ian, I Am LOVE and I Am LIGHT and in Me there is NO CONTRADICTION, no shadow of turning; if there ever seems to be a contradiction it is in you – if you hold fast this Truth you will never stray far from it.”

    The time that buzzed me the most though was one day when I was feeling altogether sad and sinful and beset by my own failings I asked, “Why do you put up with me?” And He said, “Because you are a man after my own heart.”

    Just ask, that you joy may be made full, and seek God while He may be found – there is a season of darkness coming, such that those who should reign in life a kings will submit their kingship to that demon who shall subdue them and kill them, and the time is coming when those who will deliver you up to death will believe that they do God a service. John 16:1-3. Hebrews 11.

    And Q, if it is about goodies and baddies then I suggest you take the word of Jesus on this wise, “Why call ye Me good? NO Man is good save God.” Now remember He was talking to Pharisees who were trying to catch Him at HIS WORD – so He asked them a question which revealed their dark motives, for defining ANYONE AS GOOD OR EVIL IS OF THE DEVIL, it is of the TREE of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.

    Do you follow my drift now?????? God does not judge us, nor does Jesus, WE JUDGE OURSELVES and each other, either righteously, or un-righteously. And sorry if you do not understand me, I don’t speak Babylonian anymore…gave it up for Lent..LOL

  167. “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.”

    – Samuel P. Huntington

  168. And Q, if it is about goodies and baddies then I suggest you take the word of Jesus on this wise, “Why call ye Me good? NO Man is good save God.” Now remember He was talking to Pharisees who were trying to catch Him at HIS WORD – so He asked them a question which revealed their dark motives, for defining ANYONE AS GOOD OR EVIL IS OF THE DEVIL, it is of the TREE of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.

    That’s the only thing amongst all your ramblings in that comment that I understood and can agree with you on.

  169. The West won the world through communications and the spread of English language, which helped spread the values of centuries of development of more equitable idealism.

    It developed such standards as the Magna Carta and Westminster system of government which have led to global variations, although the recent rise of a more liberal socialism as a substitute for unworkable communism has somewhat altered democracy and created a polarised, slightly left of centre Western society.

    Regardless, it is still the rise of the English language through the British Empire, Commonwealth and US power surge which has caused such profound change in the last two hundred years.

    It has been challenged recently, first by communism, by the weight of China, and lately by the rise of Islam, but as it stands it is still the mod influential secular force.

    Yes there was a struggle at times to bring about more equitable change, and often the idea of empire, capital and conquest has interfered with men’s morality at crucial times, but generally speaking communications and connect-ability, following on from the industrial revolution made the West what it is.

    War was always a means of attempting to usurp and shift the balance of power, but people respond to communications far more than they do to the sword, and the English language has quietly assumed the ascendancy an brought its cultural influences.

    Ironically, the struggle in the Middle East is completely removed from this, even though the central element, the statehood of Israel is closer to the Western model of democracy than her neighbours, the conflict reflects more ancient rifts.

  170. Steve, stop talking sense. You’ll scare the children.

    Also add to that the role the Reformation and subsequent Enlightenment has had on scientific, technological, educational and social progress.

  171. Funny stuff happening on this thread. Not sure what Prince Charles’s weiner has to do with Israel;s wall but congrats to Ian for finding something.

    Is it just me but I always thought of Prince Charles as a bit of a pussy. Certainly not the AntiChrist.

  172. Under that pussy exterior beats the heart of a lion – don’t be fooled. He is the architect of Agenda 21, and arguably the most influential person on the planet after his mother.

    Or as I heard God say “The antichrist will not come as a fiery red demon with a pitchfork and cloven hooves, but as a Grey man with Grey rules and a Grey mind – a man of GOOD rather than a man of God.”

    The Princes purportedly preposterous pecker is the “seal” of his Assyrian kingship, the young men of whom Israel played the harlot with.

    The reason why Edward the 8th had to ab-dick-ate was that he could not cut the mustard, he did not have the suitable sword to be the progenitor of the next generation.

    The elite families of finance and feudalism have interbred to create a hybrid ruling class, but the Beast shall turn on the prostitute and destroy her. The Eastern European Rabbis in olden times told those who went to London in search of wealth that they were going to Babylon and would lose their souls.

    As to the English language, the language of Babylon and Rome via London, it is being transcended by Binary Code – the Universal Language.

    The British Aristocracy and Meritocracy, along with the Jews, refined the Roman Empire system, especially the divide and conquer dictum, and basically dicked ’em all, the long and the short and the tall.

    Your overview of history is the narrative written by the victors, rather than the vanquished. That soldier of Christ, Christopher Columbus, so-called founder of America, and his Conquistadors, eradicated 8 million Arawak Indians on Haiti, and there ensued the ongoing pillage and plunder of a peaceful, naive people. In NZ, the Brits managed to whittle down the Maori population from 500,000 to 35,000 in 100 years. The primary purpose of bringing language – English or otherwise, was to burden the indigenous peoples with the Jew’s religion (disguised as Christianity) and to enable a legal system of contract law and land ownership. In short, they were philandering Pharisees, addicted to the LOVE OF MONEY. The official narrative was that they were bringing salvation and civilization.

    Now we can agree on this I am sure, that the love of money (not FOR, but OF) is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL. Aka greed for gain. The purpose of civilizing the world was the process of subjugating it. The Chinese had a 5000yr old culture to which the Brits brought Opium and bondage and bibles. Now the big problem in China is P addicted workers and a CommuNazi system of elite govt.

    Hong Kong was like the virus – when China took it back it infected China and so China became like (British) Hong Kong instead of vice versa.

    As a Romanian noble I once met said, “The British are the scum of Europe, they cannot be trusted, they have no honor and are utterly two faced.”

    Years later I came to see that largely, he was right. Just look at what they did to the Aboriginal Australians and the Indigenous Americans. They have no honor and they murder in the name of Christ and then craft a clever history to fool their own people that things would never have gotten as they have if they did not do as they did. Bollocks. They did not use the Bible and language to bring freedom, but bondage, and now we are seeing it all come to fruition as the Rhodes/Rothschild/Royal Roundtable look to close out their plans of Global hegemony and massive population reduction. I think that you live in a fools paradise of illusion and delusion.

    Study the Naohide laws – have you done it yet? Have you heard of them? Chop, chop!

    The devil wants his planet back, but first he has to get most into agreement so he can kill off all the Christians who of course will never agree? Let’s see, as they submit their kingship to the Beast, shall we?

  173. “[…] the English language [..] is being transcended by Binary Code – the Universal Language.”

    1 01100 0100110 010 101 0 101100 1010. 10101 11101 11 10001 0 10111?

    01001000 010 1 000 1010 1010 10, 1000 10 1101 101 00 01!

  174. God get’s His business done in SPITE of Man and the Church, not because of it. It is the remnant which has kept the flame burning from generation to generation.

    He only has plan A, but it takes care of all the “B’s”.

    In NZ we had Maori people who practiced a life pf peace, who were quite godly in the reverence for life and adherence to a non-violent life. The British got some of the really demonized and nasty Maori, put 1500 of them on two British ships, plied them with rum, muskets and gifts, and sent the to slaughter the peace loving Mori-ori tribe of what is now called the Chatham Islands. Then there were the Aboriginals in Victoria – look what happened to them when they began to organize flourishing communities founded on Christian principles.

    The Maori people of Parihaka, led by the prophet Te Whiti, practiced peaceful non-violent agrarian lifestyle, matching and exceeding the white settlers in excellence, so they were driven off their land and scattered, their leaders imprisoned without trial for 18yrs – sound familiar? That’s the Brits for you – inventors of the Concentration Camp and crushers of ancient civilizations, recreating the world in their own image.

    As for the enlightenment, it was the second biggest assault on Christ Mankind manufactured, after Bacon having butchered the Bible (he tweaked the King James manuscript, and by moving the compass he set Christendom on a collision course with Chaos).

    Voltaire, Mill, Hegel and that diabolical little Kraut cobbler, Jacob Boehme, and a slew of illuminated ones brought the religion of Leviathan and of Lucifer to the masses. Fabians, Fascists, Fundamentalists and fools alike fell hook line and thinker for the esoteric admix of beliefs which became modern secularized civilization, such that today virtually everyone has their own personalized belief system, their own religion, and none can agree, which has set the scene for the One Word Concord of antichrist. The man who can and will unite the world and break down barriers will be the Beast. His Mark is the Mark of a Man, which is the counterfeit of the Mark of our Higher calling, Jesus Christ. This is what the MARK of the BEAST is, the counterfeit Mark to which we are being goaded. It is the NUMBER OF A MAN. 666. 888 is the NUMBER OF CHRIST.

    Have you seen the design of our nice new cardboard cathedral? It goes with the Anglican’s cardboard cut out Christ. It is so New Age it is not funny. 0(:-})

  175. Zorro, (FOX=666) you are an idiot. By using Binary Code, all languages can be interactive, made common. The latest advances in String Theory suggest a background code in the Universe which is in essence Binary and self correcting.

    God gave me a revelation of string theory without me even realizing what it was until I was hooked up with a theoretical physicist who recognized what it was. We now have one of the most advanced theoretical physics labs in the world at University Canterbury. The guy had prayed and asked God for the answer and he was told to got to a particular church on a certain day and a man would be there with the answer he was seeking.

    I was told to go to the same church and relay a vision to a man there.

    Greg – you cannot be serious? What is wrong with reducing the population down to a MAN-age-able level living in harmony with Gaia?

    “There have been long-standing criticisms that the prince has been intervening in the affairs of government by sending a stream of letters to ministers, known as “black spider memos” because of his handwriting.”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/18/prince-charles-letters-ministers-judges

    I just went outside and looked at today’s atmospheric engineering – but they are doing it of our good. right?

    Have you actually looked into what Agenda 21 will mean? Have you looked in the Noahide Laws? Are you a communist?

  176. Ian take your garbage elsewhere – really, I’m over reading your rubbish – don;t comment on any of my threads with your claptrap consipiracy rubbish, because I’ll just delete you

  177. Whoah – so it IS Pope Gregory. I thought as much. Never mind, I have sowed enough in this field – time to move on. I only stopped here for those who were seeking God. What do the community say? Do they want me to go away? Conspiracy is a dirty word, like homophobe. Conspiracy is a legal term. The Great Conspiracy is Satan’s master-plan to get his world back – the minions who cooperate with it range from the hoodwinked to the eyes wide shut brigade – all of them the blind led by the blind.

  178. “By using Binary Code, all languages can be interactive, made common.”

    I know that Ian: that’s how a fox can communicate with a fruitcake, if you get my drift.

    Just remember: “Two’s complement, three’s a crowd”.

  179. Nice, I have been called all kinds of nuts, but in the end, I have pretty much always been right. I hope you enjoy the show Zorro, by 2015 all will become quite plain to see. And you will learn about a far deeper means of communication – the vine.

  180. They called Noah nuts too – and it shall be as it was in the days of Noah – I have been working on an Ark for 30yrs. What will you do when the shit hits the fan? And they said Jesus had demon. But I do love the way you brave souls hide behind your avatars and snipe like on Pharisees can – real men are proud of he name they have been given and don’t try to conceal their identity. Besides, there is nowhere you can hide anyway – the internet is a net spread before all men – it is the Black Widow’s World Wide Web. I will guarantee you this, that before 2021 is out, all of you will have had to make a stand for Jesus or recant – you will lose your head or you will lose you Head. I hope you are well prepared for this. Got your lamps full ladies and gentlemen?

    Zorro, the rest of these folks display some common decency, some more common than others. You are different – i sense something a lot more cynical,in you. I hope you get delivered from it. Enjoy your drought, the rain in Spain goes mainly down the drain. And as for Greg the extorter…

  181. Charles is the last of the empire royals, a throwback to the time when men of leisure regarded real work as the domain of the inferior classes, although they did tend to serve in the armed forces as part of the historic hero leader class, and were landed gentry, running vast estates.

    He is of no important historical significance to anyone except rags like the Daily Mirror which will make his reign, should he outlive his mother, the most uncomfortable for a royal in since Richard 3.

    His only religious contribution will be to blindly attempt to unite religions in the Commonwealth, by become he defender of the ‘faiths’, instead of the ‘faith’, making him the first politically correct monarch (the rest, since Charles 1, were politically corrected).

    Once William takes the throne the old school monarchs will be gone, and he will be a popular figurehead which sustains the concept of royalty for a few more years, but he will come into a diminishing commonwealth as a down to earth, hard working kind of guy born into privilege.

  182. Someone needs t break the news to you, Ian, that your Ark is pitch black and full of holes. You should also be reminded that God has already said He won’ be sending another flood. I think you should be building a fire shelter!

  183. William will be sacrificed as the Sun King, mirroring the death of his antecedent William11 at the hands of brother Henry (Harry) . he will die as a surrogate Christ at age 33 1/3. Harry is Prince of Wales, Wills is Duke of Cambridge. The first four Dukes of Cambridge were sacrificed by their father.

  184. I am talking about the flood of darkness and sorrow that will soon engulf the world. When the enemy comes in like a flood – it is not a literal Ark of Gopher wood, it is Christ – our ark. Are you guys really that oblivious to what is going on? The mammon system is going to fail – the UN plans for 85% population reduction and massive re-wilding. Once Obama is inaugurated, it should start to become clearer, but it will be too late – prayer is not going to stop what is coming – the bowls of wrath or full to overflowing, I have seen them. And next year is the 40th anniversary of Roe vs Wade. The silent holocaust.

  185. Ian, since the attention is now switched onto you,
    I have pretty much always been right.

    Of course, if you say enough, somewhere in the midst of your manifold words something will connect with the truth.

    The thing is that you paint such a poorly arranged picture of reality mixed with fiction that your abstract view is blurred by a confusing array of random thoughts which project much but say little of any help to anyone.

    And you seem to be isolated as the only possible survivor of the coming wrath.

    That is the most telling part.

  186. No – what is coming will give rise to a move of God which will sweep the earth – things will get so bad that people will have no place left to turn. As to being right, after the Feb EQ which my son had seen in an open vision, he broke down and apologised for thinking, like everyone else, that I was mad. I had nailed both quakes and the 2008 crash. I was sent to warn the leader of the second biggest church in town that the Feb quake was coming in about two weeks, two weeks before it did. I then went back to him to tell his to get ready for the next one. They formed a prayer and fasting accord and stuck to it for thirty days. Other prophets had warned him too. The quake was averted. Many of us prayed for it to be so.

    All I am trying to do is warn folk. In prophetic things I have hardly ever been found wrong – and the folk in CHCH know that they are holding back what is coming, and the grace of God has given people time to prepare. When it happens it will happen suddenly, without warning. The whole country is going got be hit – something like half or more of the population will die. But the what would an M8 plus in Melbourne do? IT will be liquefaction central. But Sydney is like New York, built on bedrock, when that goes it will be spectacular. I have seen apartment buildings falling into the harbor. Oh well, your funeral. I am not looking forward to the big one here – it is going to be beyond fear. Its the Tsunamis that most people dream about.

  187. I’ve run out of things to say. All I can say is….wow.

    Ian, do you talk like this to your wife over coffee? You must have really interesting conversations around the dinner table. Esp when your relatives are all there.

    At last one thing we can all agree on. Earthquakes and tsunamis are no fun.

  188. Ian, you must realize that it’s pretty normal for people to not get what you”re saying. You sound like a person suffering from schizophrenia. (and I don’t mean that in a derogatory sense).

  189. All Ian is doing is giving his version of the events foretold in Matthew 24.

    But Jesus told us that no one knows the hour when they will take place.

    All we have to do is watch and pray.

    And preach the gospel until He comes.

    The gospel. You know! The GOOD NEWS!

    That, despite these events, Jesus has made a way for us to escape the wrath to come, through faith in Him.

    Preaching doom, gloom, fear and wrath isn’t the mandate.

    It will happen, and we should warn people, but it shouldn’t become either our consuming passion or our only conversation piece.

  190. There is a saying that Man speaking to God is called prayer, but God speaking to man is schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is defined as “unreasoned fear syndrome”. I have a friend who is diagnosed as Schizoid. When he has an episode it is pretty freaky, but otherwise he is highly intelligent and a very funny guy and probably should have been an actor or comedian or preacher. Schizophrenia is not multiple personality disorder, though it involves multiple personalities, as in many diagnosed with it are Christians who have been delivered and then got the 7 fold demonic increase.

    The POWER OF GOD is the good news, not the good news the power. Jesus is the POWER OF GOD, not a book but a PERSON. he the comes to God must believe THAT HE IS, but most come pre-loaded for deception and then get snookered by the Jew’s religion (words and traditions) instead of actually receiving the Power.

    Yes, Jesus has made a WAY to escape the wrath – it is to pass from judgment to Life – it is the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. But what I see is a storm coming and the children playing at church, building Babylon, instead of getting in the storm shelter, the strong tower of Jesus Christ.

    God gave me a prayer strategy about what is coming and how to prepare for it.

    This is an unusual time, it is the culmination of the church age – it is the End Time Harvest of Souls (ETHOS) of God.

    By the way, when I was a troubled child of about 12, they took me to a shrink. He said not only was I quite sane, but that I was very introspective, of sub-genius intellect, impossible to hypnotize and that my parents should perhaps be looking at themselves instead of trying to psycho-analyze my rebellious behavior. These days they feed you up on drugs to try and kill the gift.

    I started prophesying as soon as i could talk – it used to freak my mother out. I spent most of my youth and twenties running from the gift, but you cannot run from God. There is something much bigger than us in us.

    About 1999, my son was flatting with a guy who was seriously wounded in his soul and demonized. One night he tried to bully me into paying a debt he said my son owed to him. I felt an incredible surge of indignation rise up in me such that it possessed my very being and I felt myself “grow” from 5’9″ to 6ft plus, and begin to glow gold – it was pure righteous anger – and the guys eyes went real big and he stammered and stuttered and said, “I’ve gotta go” and fled from me.

    I laughed and said, “What was that all about” and heard (with a savor of mild indignation) “He was not looking at you”. It is no longer I which lives but Christ which lives in me. But I bet he got a witness!

    Seek God while He may be found, so that He may keep you from what is to come upon the whole earth. The bowls of wrath are full, God literally cannot hold back judgment much longer – Mankind is demanding it! This is how it works! God gives you what you ask for, what you believe, and He is no respecter of any man’s person.

    Before the FEB 22 EQ I wanted to buy a car to handle the broken roads I had “seen”. I asked God if I should proceed with the purchase of a lovely Audi All-Road. He said “Knock yourself out!” To wit, its up to you. Recently I had a vision of the cities roads all broken, such that you could not even think to drive anywhere.

    Having apocalyptic visions is no fun, but it is fascinating. As my wife says, I hold nothing back – but that is me – how can you keep quiet?

    By the way, the Army exercise timed to coincide with the FEB 22 EQ was named “Operation Southern Katipo”. The Katipo is the NZ Black Widow, and Red Back. The Black Widow is the malevolent spirit of Zionazism. Selah.

  191. That was a seemingly realistic, well presented, and, I think, fair portrayal of what the ‘Vice’ journalist saw.

    But there is also Pallywood…

  192. The politics of the Arab States are changing with the Arab Spring. Israel will soon be surrounded by the Muslim Brotherhood and they’ll (the Muslim Brotherhood that is) definitely be a threat to Iran and even Hezbollah. It’s interesting that Egypt is the one mediating this time. They have a stake in this as well.

    A fragile peace: in pursuit of a solution

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/a-fragile-peace-in-pursuit-of-a-solution-20121123-29yqu.html#ixzz2D62KTwpN

  193. Dr. Abuelaish was the first Palestinian doctor to have full privileges at an Israeli hospital. Abuelaish, 57, is a renowned fertility expert who in addition to his medical degree has a masters in public health from Harvard, and a current professorship at the University of Toronto. His role as a physician has profoundly influenced his devotion to peace and he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize:

    He had just lost his wife to leukemia weeks earlier, when on January 16, 2009 Israeli shells struck the apartment that he shared with his children and other relatives.

    “There was a monstrous explosion that seemed to be all around us, and a thundering, fulminating sound that penetrated my body as though it were coming from within me. I remember the sound. I remember the blinding flash. Suddenly it was pitch dark, there was dust everywhere, something was sucking the air out of me, I was suffocating…. As the dust began to settle, I realized the explosion had come from my daughters’ bedroom…. The sight in front of me was something I hope no other person ever has to witness…. Bedroom furniture, school books, dolls, running shoes and pieces of wood were splintered in a heap, along with the body parts of my daughters and my niece.”

    Though I cannot prove it, it is my firm belief that Dr. Abuelaish’s loss and his response to it have saved lives in the earlier conflict as well as the current one. The anguish and aftermath of the attack was captured on live television in Israel, and it had a profound effect not only on Palestinians, but on many Israelis as well. Dr. Abuelaish was trusted as someone who had been committed to peace through a variety of activities, and he had actually done interviews from Gaza during the conflict.

    Nothing Bad From God
    It would have been thoroughly understandable for Dr. Abuelaish to become a bitter and hateful man who also lost his trust in God, but remarkably the opposite happened. Since the tragedy, Dr. Abuelasih has been an indefatigable champion for peace and the dignity of all people and his devotion to faith remains unshakable: “All suffering is man made…. Nothing bad from God, I never believe God gives bad things to human beings.”

    He explains further that God took his wife of twenty-one years first, because he did not want her to suffer the loss of three of her children. “I have five more children with [a] future and hope, nothing for bad…Even with the loss of three daughters and one niece. Later on, I started to ask myself why I was tested. I am sure [for] something heavy and useful.” Even so, Dr. Abuelaish has faced criticism for being too close to Israelis and not tough enough in his criticism of Hamas. Hamas, the elected ruling authority in Gaza is a Muslim Brotherhood affiliated group categorized as a terrorist organization by the United States for its suicide bombing campaigns, indiscriminate rocket attacks on civilians, and because its charter calls for the complete destruction of Israel.

    Hopes For Peace

    He sees his role now as inspiring others to peace:

    “To meet terrorism with terrorism or violence doesn’t solve anything…. The consequences of this harm can’t be measured, and it will be with huge consequences and effects on all of us.
    What can you do? You can do a lot. You can support justice for all by speaking out loudly to your family, friends, community, politicians and religious leaders. You can support foundations that do good work. You can volunteer for humanitarian organizations. You can vote regressive politicians out of office. You can do many things to move the world toward greater harmony…”

    During and following an address in Los Angeles in 2009 his statements to me captured a devotion to peace in the face of hardship that is reminiscent of Dr. King, Gandhi and Bobby Kennedy:

    “Before being Jewish we are human being (sic), before being a Muslim, a Palestinian or Israeli we are a human being (sic) and our humanity brings us together…. When I [am] defending the Jew, or the Christian or the African, I am defending myself.
    Our problem in this Holy Land is that we don’t know each other….We are stereotyped about each other; we don’t want to know the other in the right way….Palestinians look at Israelis as occupiers, as soldiers, as killers, what other bad thing they can imagine.

    The Palestinians are Hamas. The Palestinians are sending rockets. They are suicidal bombers.

    The bad things, like we look in the glass to the empty part. But I think the glass is relatively full, there are a lot of good people on both sides, but we don’t want to see them.

    I am defending the humanity that I belong to that brings us together….Everything starts small and becomes big….We need big hearts and big minds where love resides.”

    A very wise Arab-American scholar involved in the peace process said now more than ever the choices today for Israelis and Palestinians alike are not Jew versus Arab, but echoing Dr. Abuelaish, they are sanity versus insane hatred. Is it not interesting that on this Thanksgiving Day, America again has shown its crucial position to the world by helping to implement one step toward sanity– the current ceasefire? Perhaps, if American support and influence continues, and the hate mongers are sidelined, one day, the words inscribed on the Liberty Bell from Leviticus, “Proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the Inhabitants thereof” will resonate across two states living side by side in peace.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-levin-jd/who-will-hear-the-worlds_b_2175908.html

  194. This is a very moving story – I trust I will never have to witness the eviscerated remains of my own nor anyone’s children first hand.

    One thought though, where do you guys stand over the salvation of his wife and children and of him, being as they were Muslim?

    Interesting that a fellow Harvard Alumnus named Obama plays god killing innocent Muslim women and children from on high, that America supplies most of Israel’s military capability, and also that this doctor was an Ob/Gyn at an Israeli Hospital. It would also be interesting to know his position on abortion, but being a (devout?) Muslim that should not even be an issue.

    Also interesting that he posits that American help and strength in the region is integral to peace, and central to the answer, when quite clearly it is also the source of the majority of the problems. It also looks like classic Stockholm Syndrome trauma based mind control. He says it is for Man to find the answers – when in reality Man killed the answer 2000yrs ago and still largely rejects the answer.

    It kind of reminds me of Heidi Baker trying to summon help from home for Mozambique when arguably Aids was developed as a bio-weapon to depopulate Africa, and American Foreign Policy initiatives have been central to creating the human holocaust happening in Africa – especially in the Congo with “Blood Coltan”.

    If there is salvation in no other than Jesus, and the traditional position of Christians is that if you die not having confessed Jesus that you go to the dark place, or hell, or oblivion, or some other Spiritual Siberian Hel, then what happens where such well intentioned, altruistically motivated people suffer such seemingly inconceivable and insufferable tragedy?

    And how freaky that he was due to be interviewed live on Israeli TV just mere minutes from when the shells hit – who or what was behind that? And he always feared that his family might be hurt – sounds quite Jobian “For I was not in safety, and the thing that I so greatly feared has come upon me…Job 6…

    Just asking…but it sounds like he was targeted…as in “fire for effect”. Talk about reality TV…Israeli style…maybe Obama could donate his Nobel Peace Prize to him. But let’s face it, who runs Hollywood and the Movie Industry?

    As tragic as this is, I cannot help but smell a dirty rat at work, goes by the name of Molloch, or Mammon, or Beelzebub, or ha Shatan. The Peace Process is actually the end game – and interfaith ecumenicism the One World Religion to go with the UN Agenda 21 World Govt and of course the One World (Jewish) Monetary System.

    Now all we need is a GREG OR IAN chant…what say you? And don’t please do not accuse me of being callous…I know just where his family are…and they are safe with Isa.

    The clip is 4:13 long.

    EPH 4:13. Until we all become one in faith and knowledge of the Son of God, and [we become] one person according to the measure of Christ’s all encompassing stature.

    Interfaith or ONE FAITH? Just asking….

  195. On first reading this sad story, I got that “what is wrong with this picture” feeling – so I asked, “Father, what is wrong with this picture?”

    “Well, everything really.”

    You need to be a Berean and more, and look deeper than mere emotion and the psychological buttons that the are used to help determine your thoughts and actions. If you have not done so, spend some time watching Derren Brown, ex Church Evangelist mentalist, and the seminal documentaries on Bernays and Freud by Adam Curtis. If you have not seen his docos, then do so.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prTarrgvkjo bloody brilliant.

    But then the cynic in me says be careful of ANYTHING which savors of Man. Anything. There is no good thing in the flesh.

  196. And besides, with the gear they have these days (the IDF and Americans are so far ahead of the oppo its not funny), using a 4.7″ Smooth Bore and and computerised fire control system they can put a LAHAT antitank missile round on a dime at up to 5 miles (8kms). LAHAT is Hebrew for “Incandesence” hence the good Doctors description of the while light and sucking effect – yep, those Zionist rounds certainly suck the breath out of your lungs – they have a truly perverse sense of the absurdly ironic.

    Can you follow that? It was all quite easy to research – it is going to be a bit of a bugger to be wthout the Internet, I will have to learn to rely on the Innernet.

    Peace and wholeness! Shalom!

  197. I agree that his family is with Jesus.

    Ian, some of your beliefs are similar to Syrian Orthodox especially the Aramaic version of the scriptures and a universal view of salvation.

  198. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peace-for-Palestine-Israel/128058094018004

    Between late 1999 and mid 2001, I was graced with a series of divine encounters and revelations which changed my whole way of reading the scriptures, and would over time change my whole world view and perspective of faith and of the mysteries of God.

    One in particular was when I heard that I was to become a writer of letters for God. It seemed the sensible thing to me to begin looking at how the writers of the scriptures began and finished their works – so I started with Acts as that seemed to be how I was being led. Looking at the last lines Luke wrote, for some reason my eyes glanced over at Romans 1:16 and they words went bold, reversed and hit me like a bullet – instead of reading that the GOSPEL is the power of God, it read THE POWER OF GOD is the good news. I gasped and asked for confirmation and immediately heard “for the kingdom of God is NOT IN WORD , but in demonstration of dynamic POWER.” That completely flipped me, and as excited as i was, my friends at the house church I had recently begun attending did not get it, all bar one young man with a prophetic bent who immediately got it.

    About 16 months later, a brother who used to go to the WOF church I had attended in the 80’s, rang me out of the blue – he said the Lord had told him to tell me about a wonderful Aramaic Translation he had encountered. He asked me to give him a reference, any reference, and out of my heart came “Romans 1:16″. When he read it to me I nearly fell off the end of the phone.

    16. For I am not embarrassed by Him, as He is revealed through the Gospel, because He is the Power of God, [proffering] Life to whoever believes in Him, whether from the Jews first or from the Aramaic speaking people first.

    The a while later the real meaning of Eloi, Eloi,lama sabacthani hit me while in a meeting – I wrote to Victor Alexander to ask him if the revelation was real or just the Pizza. He thought that I was a PhD level Aramaic scholar checking him out and got quite stroppy with me for asking such a question. When I assured him that I was merely a jeweler from Christchurch and had no inkling of Aramaic except that I had heard in my heart what it meant, he told me that it must have been by the Holy Spirit or I was a lying and was a scholar. I assured him that it was not so and since then we have had a very fruitful relationship – and I get him to check what I get by way of explanation and it is always right. I ave learned to trust God on a much deeper level thereby.

    There are many voices but only ONE VOICE.

    By the way, Jesus never submitted to doubt or to anything save the Father’s will – He perfectly pleased the Father. Whe He said, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me it should read, My God, My God, this is for why you have left Me here.” It was His last statement of faith as He gave up the Ghost. The idiomatic sense of being forsaken is that of how you would send your child to his room to clean it up and you are not coming out until it is done. Not saying that Jesus had made a mess of creation but Man certainly had and God had to become a man to clean up the HOUSEHOLD OF GOD!

    I asked Him once “Why the Cross, what was that all about?”

    “Creation is MY RESPONSIBILITY, only I could do it”

    (Where I go Peter, YOU CANNOT FOLLOW!)

    Don’t you just love Him? Whenever I meditate upon His suffering I start to cry hot tears, I just can’t help it.

    We have so misunderstood God and His Great Salvation. The first time He came to His own, He was rejected, and so too it shall be at the second time, such that He will compel those His servants to go out into the Highways and Byways and compel all who would enter in to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb to do so.

    If your eye be single, then shall your whole being be flooded with Light, such that there will be no darkness in you, neither shadow of turning. Aa-meen.

  199. Really? Was that actually about anything to do with anything remotely to do with the thread, or even reality?

    I don’t think I can be bothered with this anymore.

  200. I was answering Bones and also addressing the real core of the conflict – that people do not trust God to provide or to save them or even comprehend and so apprehend so Great A Salvation.

    You can’t be bothered with what, the Truth? You really do not get this do you, that the Peace process IS the end game? But then neither did I when I was bellicose, belligerent and bombastic, but if God can get me going, you should be a pushover – actually you will go backwards and be snared and fall, but that is between you and God. Enjoy the trip. You won’t be alone though, before this is over, EVERYONE will get corrected, including, and maybe especially, me. Ever seen what happens when an Ox backs up into the goads?

    9. To whom shall be taught the knowledge?
    And to whom shall be the schooling, that which is heard?
    To those who are weaned from milk and freed from the bread?
    10. Because vomit is upon vomit, and vomit upon vomit,
    and apostasy is upon apostasy, and apostasy upon apostasy,
    a little here and a little there.
    11. Because with incomprehensible speech and in another tongue they shall speak to them, to the people here.
    12. Whereas it would be said to them, “This here is my rest for you; rest then, you afflicted ones.” But they shall be quiet and would not listen.
    13. And the manifestation of Maryah shall be upon them,
    apostasy upon apostasy and apostasy upon apostasy,
    and vomit upon vomit and vomit upon vomit;a little here and a little there, so as they may return and become enveloped behind them, and they shall be broken, hunted down and captured.

    Isaiah 28 – Victor Alexander Ancient Aramaic Translation. 0(:->)

    When the whole world is so shit scared of nuclear and or fiscal catastrophe, they will clutch at anything for security, and accept anyone as leader, especially such a nice bloke as Prince Charles. They say that we are known by our associations – his dearest and oldest friend was Jimmy Saville, who Diana thought was an utter creep and who Jill Dando was going to out, before her untimely demise. I will wager a beer on it with you all, that Charles will be the architect of a Middle East Peace Accord. You watch. Trouble is, I don’t think I will be able to drink that much beer in one sitting, but we could have a party. And it may not happen until more like 2015, because no man knows the time, but we are assured that they who are watching will know the season, FIG-uratively speaking.

    But Jesus has been telling me to stay outside the camp, so perhaps it is really me who should not be bothered with this anymore? I would not want my meat to choke or to stumble you. However, I do suspect there are some interested readers who are saying, “Say what?”

    I do what I do out of Love, do you?

  201. “But then neither did I when I was bellicose, belligerent and bombastic,”

    So you sound like ‘SHAGGY’ Hey!

    “but if God can get me going, you should be a pushover – actually you will go backwards and be snared and fall, but that is between you and God. ”

    HA HA HA HA ,,,,,,,Like to see you push me over , with your hipnotic imitation!!!

    “EVERYONE will get corrected, including, and maybe especially, me”

    Definitely YOU.

    I did what i did, but after reading your comment,,,,,,,,,,,I was thinking that ,maybe you should look up this,,,,

    http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/666.htm

  202. “I don’t think I can be bothered with this anymore.”

    But still you could not help yourself ,could you?

  203. “Thankfully there are some, a few, Christians amongst them all, but those who resist Christ, regardless of their politics, beliefs, tolerance level, or militance, need to be reached with the gospel, and they need our prayers if we are not t………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….?

    Show resourcesAdd parallel
    James 3:18
    Amplified Bible (AMP)
    18 And the harvest of righteousness (of conformity to God’s will in thought and deed) is [the fruit of the seed] sown in peace by those who work for and make peace [in themselves and in others, that peace which means concord, agreement, and harmony between individuals, with undisturbedness, in a peaceful mind free from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts].

  204. 13. Whoever among you that are endowed with wisdom, let them show it through works that produce beautiful results, through gentle wisdom.
    14. If there is bitter struggle among you, or plunder in your hearts, do not boast of your sincerity as you are lying.
    15. Because this is not the wisdom that came down from above, except it is from below, it is from self interest and demonic.
    16. For where there is strife and plunder, there you will also find ruin and every evil thing.
    17. The wisdom from above, then, is pure and full of peace, gentleness and obedience, full of mercy and blessed fruits, and it is not ambivalent or hypocritical.
    18. The fruits of righteousness, then, are sown peacefully among those who make peace.

    Blessed are the Peacemakers. The Peace this is talking of is that Peace which is the fruit of the Spirit – the fruits of righteousness sown peacefully among those which make peace.

    Note that these are the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT as distinct from the works of the flesh which are the “fruit” of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. By THEIR fruit shall you know THEM.

    The way to the Tree of Life, or the Life of the Tree, is guarded by a messenger with a fiery sword – not to prevent but to pass us from death to life by the circumcision of the Heart by the Sword (Words) of the Spirit. Other wise we are CUT OFF from True Communion with Life by the same Spiritual Sword.

    That little Palestinian pot boiler which threatens not only the peace of the Middle East but indeed the whole world, along with the obscene amount of thermonuclear weapons and the RUMOURS OF WAR, have created an anxiety which will eventually be exacerbated by a limited nuclear war, probably involving the destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17) and the novel ‘inspiration’ that only the UN is capable of keeping world peace and should hold enough Nukes to stop anyone getting clever ideas and then all national barriers should be removed so we can all live in peace and harmony with nature, agenda 21 be praised, amen.

    The situation in Israel and Gaza is the result of UN meddling and the role of Israel in the plan to craft a collectivist world view and Govt. It has been contrived with one ultimate purpose in mind, to create the stage for the Beast and Little Horn to make their play, to get Satan’s world back which he lost at Calvary.

    I am surprised that as Christians you cannot see this, but then Satan has been running the Roman Church and all its offshoots since 1033 and his 1000yr Reich is about to come to an abrupt and Apocalyptic end. So, given that the Church has been his personal fiefdom for nigh on a thousand years, to the extent, in the Jobian sense, that God should allow him the latitude to sift the saints, it is no small, wonder then that if he may appear as a messenger of light, and that his ministers should appear to be ministers of righteousness.

    The vicarious Nicolaitans the ways of whom Jesus hates, to wit the Clergy, to wit the hirelings, to wit the Church hierarchy.

    Understanding the Mark of the Beast is really quite simple, even a child could get it. Jesus said, in His own language, “I Am the Aleph and the Tav – the Head and the Consummation – or beginning and end. He would not have recourse to Alpha and Omega as koine Greek was not his native language – it was Aramaic – even Mel Gibson knows that.

    Tav means MARK, as in the MARK of our high calling and the MARK or IMAGE of Him with which He marks His own, on our ‘forehead’, or our conscious mind. But here is another mark, the mark of a man. Jesus in gematria is 888, while the mark of man is 666. The mark is the goal or image we are being transformed into – either the image of Christ Jesus or the image of the Beast. Simple.

    The image which is in your conscious mind is what you are becoming – the more that you look into the Perfect Law of Liberty, the more you behold Him who for the prize which was set before Him endured the shame of the Cross, the more you are transformed into that same image. If the image in your conscious mind is that of (a) Man, and your authority (signified by the right hand) is marked as (a) Man, such that your kingship is given to the Beast, then heaven help you.

    In gematria, Man is 6, the 111 fold man, Homo Superior, is 666. The MAXIMISING OF MAN – as in “Get thee behind me Satan, for you savor NOT of the things of God but the things of MAN. Babylon is so much more than just a place, it is a whole way of life, so too the the Beast is more than just a man, he is THE MAN, and FYI, Charles means “The Man”.

    But we should behold THE SON OF MAN, Christ Jesus, lest we weary in our well doing and yield to the conforming pressure of Mankind. Like I said, mark these words, the Peace Process will involve the Prince (of peace?) and will set the stage for the World Govt and the restoration of the temple, but what Amos spoke of was the restoration of the Tabernacle of David, which was outside the gates of Ariel – or Jerusalem, which is also known as Sodom and as Egypt. The Ark has left the Temple and is OUTSIDE THE GATES!

    So there! Or Selah, as in, suck on that Sunshine! Is that gentle and peace-full enough for you? 0(:->)

  205. Why are you assuming people don’t see what is happening in Israel is a part of end times prophecy, Ian?

    The problem is that you waffle on about a zillion unconnected things and drop a few eschatological pieces into your melancholy theoretical stew, bubble it up with half a dozen herbal burbles, thinking no one else has a clue about anything that is going on but yourself, simply because most of what you say is unreadable unless the readers have the time to break it down into manageable slices.

    As I have said, all you are giving us is basically your summary of what Jesus said in Matthew 24, jumbled up with a host of false prophecies and proclamations of your own.

    We know what is taking place in the end times, and what the outcome will be, including Israel’s part in it.

    Your insinuation that people will be judged simply because they refute your illogical paraphrasing of Biblical reality is laughable.

    Thanks for the warnings of doom and gloom, but I think I’ll stick to what Jesus says, and what the epistles add. I’m afraid your nondescript potion neither attracts me nor frightens me. I’m a follower of Christ, not a heeder of judgmental seers.

    As I’ve said, all the believer needs to do is to receive Christ, walk in love as His disciple, preach the GOOD NEWS of the gospel of peace, continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and not be moved away, especially by old wive’s tales, fellowship with the saints, spread the agape amongst the lost, and ignore false projections by wannabe prophets.

    So there is no reason to bother about vain philosophy, including baseless insults from a self-centred scaremonger like you.

    Now we have Eyes turning up to drop in a few more numerically conspiratorial flavourings.

    Thanks for the offer, but I don’t think I’m hungry for this kind of recipe. Masterchef it isn’t.

    Too many kooks ruining tis broth if you ask me!

  206. Ian,
    I do what I do out of Love, do you?

    No you don’t. You do it because it gives you self-satisfaction and sense of self-importance.

    I had a college student, who is fervently SDA, who brought me her religious literature, which I gently and politely declined, saying I’d already received it several times over from her religious colleagues in various places at various times, and, after she’d attempted to persuade me of my desperate need of Ellen G White’s patently false prophecies and dogmas, found it judgmental, religious and legalistic, not to mention offensive towards those who actually walk in the Light of the gospel given in the New Testament, mainly because we worship God every day not just on Saturday (yes Ian, I know, the day of saturn, or satan, etc, etc).

    She, like all the others, said, after I kindly asked her to desist so that we didn’t get into a religious dispute over doctrine, ‘But how would I show love if I don’t tell the truth!”, just like you, with all your projections of doom and decision that no one here knows the truth but you. She wasn’t the first SDA to say she was judging my faith in love!

    Thing is, I also judged her doctrine against scripture, in love,and it fell short of truth, especially the part whee she said I was of the mark of the beast because I worshiped every day and not just on Saturn-day, and that she shouldn’t judge me in respect of a sabbath or holy day, since everything, to me, is Christ, who is the Head!

    When I have pointed out to you that what you say doesn’t match what Christ says, and that I’d rather heed the warnings o the New Testament Prophets, including Christ, Paul and Peter, now claim i don’t get the truth, and you are only attempting to drive this into everyone’s psych out of your apparent love for us.

    Now you bring the same claim of telling me untruths out of love!

    Well, thanks. I receive the love, but not the message you are bringing, because I don’t think God is about to pour any wrath on me, or the brethren here, to teach me a lesson, just because I say your predictions seem unlikely, and even if you, by some remarkable chance, get some or even one of them quite close to right, it means diddly-squat in the great scheme of things.

    This is because, Ian, prophecy, which do believe in as a New Testament gift of the Holy Spirit, is not given to draw attention to the prophet, but to Christ.

    What you miss in your ramblings is the fact that, when we are born again, we receive the Holy Spirit, and He gives us either the green light or the red light when it comes to prophecy. He confirms it. He discerns it.

    All prophecy should be judged by the prophets whether it is of the Holy Ghost.

    I discern, by the leading of the Holy Spirit, that much of what you say in not of Him, but, rather, is a series of judgments made by your own will and interpretation of events as you see them, an as you understand them, even form what you grasp as scripture.

    Mostly because it draws attention to one Ian Williams, not to Christ.

    I hope I have made myself plain to you.

    I said it in love!

  207. We (should) worship at the altar of our heart and in the Spirit 24/7.

    Interesting you speak of the gospel. Jesus once asked me “What was my gospel?” I realized that I did not really know the answer. He then led me to read Matthew 4 – And He went about everywhere proclaiming, “Repent, for the kingdom is approaching”. Is that the gospel you mean?

    Has this text from Amos been fulfilled already or is it yet to be?

    7 “Are you Israelites more important to me
    than the Ethiopians? asks the Lord.
    “I brought Israel out of Egypt,
    but I also brought the Philistines from Crete
    and led the Arameans out of Kir.

    8 “I, the Sovereign Lord,
    am watching this sinful nation of Israel.
    I will destroy it
    from the face of the earth.
    But I will never completely destroy the family of Israel,”
    says the Lord.
    9 “For I will give the command
    and will shake Israel along with the other nations
    as grain is shaken in a sieve,
    yet not one true kernel will be lost.
    10 But all the sinners will die by the sword—
    all those who say, ‘Nothing bad will happen to us.’

    No SDA here or any denomination for that matter, but I have been shown the bowls of wrath and they are full to overflowing. It would be nice to think that the finished work of the cross mean that all the work was finished, and yes I know that it has been like this for nigh on 2000yrs.

    As for the things which befall us for having a loveless attitude, that is just part of the correcting process, line upon line, precept upon precept, that you may go and fall backwards and be snared.

    We either get it from the Throne, or we get it line upon line – here a little, there a little.

    What I see coming is the great Earthquake which shall make every island shake and move out of its place – both literally and figuratively. Its all there in the Book, and we add to it or detract from it to our own peril. A man with an experience tends not to be at the mercy of a man with an argument. Has the Holy Spirit discerned or have you simply dismissed, based upon your own theology and or experience with cults such as SDA.

    I guess what it all comes down to is that your discernment and mine are at odds over whether the prophecies of he book are all fulfilled or if they are yet to be. Isaiah 17:1 is a good place to start – is Damascus still standing? Well, according to Isaiah, and not to Ian-sayer, when Damascus is completely destroyed in a day, then all the other cities which are also holds of demons (in other words, all of them) shall likewise be razed.

    Sorry, I did not write it – and how can you twist that one to say something other than what it does?

    Considering that many of the saints who were forced out of Iraq by US Foreign Policy are now living in Damascus, where US and British backed mercenaries and malcontents are murdering innocent civilians for their Globalist masters. This whole Arab Spring thing is a set-up for a shake down.

    I guess you guys are all for the UN? Look up Lucius Trust, it is the publishing branch of the UN – it used to be called the Lucifer Trust.

    But I guess if you are Preterit of Historicist and if you think all of the prophets were fulfilled in Christ Jesus and all that remains is to preach the gospel and such then be happy. The social gospel is wonderful, everything that brings goodness to bear in any situation is wonderful, and all that the Pharisees say do, do, but do not do as they do.

    10. And he said to me, “Do not close the manifestations of the prophesy of this book for that age is soon approaching.
    11. “The [worker] of abomination will be abominable still, and the depraved shall be depraved still, and the righteous shall do righteous acts still and the saint will be sainted still.

    Aramaic translator Vic Alexander is of the opinion that Revelation referred to the time of Nero – however I am of the view that we are in it now. Time will tell, I guess.

    Perhaps you can discern for me what is being sprayed into our skies to give us such crappy weather? The (Holy) Spirit I hear told me it was the work of “My Army the Assyrians” and also “Don’t ever forget the Germans”. If I am right, then discernment will no be an issue, and it should all be quite apparent by late 2015. If I am wrong, then I will be the guy who get’s tarred and feathered, but if I am right, then maybe you will be the turkeys? Time will tell.

  208. I think you mistake pointing out your error for a loveless attitude.

    In fact, you have been allowed to speak much and say little for some time, to he extent that our rambling inaccuracies have taken over this blog on just about every thread, and taken us so far off course in every instance that it has become the Ian Williams show.

    So you’ve had every opportunity to display your own particular kind of theological claptrap and have it well examined as a confused mishmash of scripture taken from an obscure translation mixed with your supposed conversations with Jesus.

    Quite why Jesus would have to ask you what His gospel was when it is so clearly defined in scripture by Jesus, His Apostles and His Prophets is beyond me.

    Do you think that we never read that we were to repent because the Kingdom of Heaven is near? Is that the gospel, or one aspect of it? Where was your reference to the work of the cross, the resurrection, the redemption of those who believe, the propitiation, the work of the Holy Spirit, Jesus promise of the Spirit, the grace of God, the gift of eternal life through faith in Christ, the new birth, the coming of Christ for the Church, Go’s love of the whole world which led Him to predestine the Lamb for slaughter to redeem the world through faith in Him, and a host of other good news items we preach to those who will hear?

    How is it that Jesus, in this conversation He had with you, didn’t mention His cross, His death, His resurrection, His promise of the Spirit, the Church, His Body?

    Repentance is only one aspect. Where was the godly sorrow that leads to repentance? The love of God that draws us into repentance?

    You speak o Israel as if they are to be destroyed, yet Paul reveals that Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentle, to usher in the nations and all who believe in the Christ, including those of Israel, and that the gentile’s entry would spur Israel to a jealously which would draw them to the Christ. because in Christ there is no Jew, and no Gentile. We are all one in Him. We are made one through faith in Christ.

    Coming to Christ is our repentance!

    Ephesians 2
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
    9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
    10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
    11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh–who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands–
    12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
    13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
    14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
    15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
    16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
    17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
    18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
    19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
    20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
    21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
    22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

    He is our peace. He is our redemption and our redeemer. He is our deliverance and our deliverer.

    You constantly talk of judgment an wrath, but Jesus talks of the gospel of peace, and the work of the cross and the salvation of all who come to him through faith. You speak of condemnation. he speaks of love.

    John 3
    16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
    17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
    21 “But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

    There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

    No condemnation, Ian.

    So to blazes with your judgments of believers. To blazes with your pronouncements on Israel. To blazes with your condemnation of the world.

    That will be for the sinful world AFTER He has come for the Church.

    After!

    God is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Longsuffering!

    Today is the day of Salvation! Today, if you’ll only hear and believe the report, the good news. Today!

    Today is the day of God’s grace.

    Today is the Day of God’s outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh.

    There is time enough for the judgment and the wrath and the end of the world.

    Today is the day for souls to be saved, and for the lost to be found and for God’s grace to be preached throughout the world.

    Is that gospel enough for you?

  209. In reality, Ian, there are only two types of people on earth who really count. Those who believe and those who don’t. Those with the circumcision made without hands. Those of faith in Christ. or those who reject Him.

    The race, gender, culture or nationality of an individual is peripheral to everything to do with the Kingdom of heaven.

    But Israel does stand out in scripture because God once called them the apple of His eye, and at one time they were the chosen people who ushered in the Christ, their Messiah.

    So He mentions them in scripture as once judged, hence the Babylonian exile, but also to be redeemed as a remnant, but in Christ, in whom all are redeemed.

    Two thirds of Israel will die before the coming of the Christ at the end of time according to scripture, so, yes, there will be terrible times for the natural nation of Israel when the antichrist is released into a time of dominion.

    But the Church will not be present. They are not reserved for the wrath of God. They will be caught up before the coming of the antichrist. The Church will come on the clouds with the Lord of Lords and King of Kings at the end of the world, when God’s wrath is poured out. Then woe to those in the earth. The very rocks will not hide them.

    Until that time, every man woman and child on earth, regardless of what they presently believe, do or think, culturally, ethnically or politically, has the option of repenting, of receiving Christ, and of being saved.

    They are not being judged or condemned. They are being called.

    That is why we have the gospel. It is God’s message of hope for a fallen world.

    The only answer for the Middle East, whether you are Jew or Gentile, is the gospel of peace. There is no other solution. Even if all hostilities stopped today and there was never another rocket fired in anger by either side, they still need salvation.

    God’s judgement ans wrath will come. He is a consuming fire, vengeance belongs to Him, His wrath will be poured out, and Israel will be persecuted under the antichrist before the Messiah comes, but right now, the most important thing is to get the message of hope and faith out to as many people as we can.

    That is the only reason we are still here.

    We don’t need your prophecies. The warnings are plain to see throughout scripture.

    There will be one more shaking, and everything that can be shaken will be shaken, but right now, we are sent to preach the GOOD NEWS.

    And God loves NZ! It is on a fault line, which is why earthquakes happen. people build their cities in the craziest of places, such as in California, but that is their choice.

    God still loves them. Let’s gather them in to the kingdom before a natural disaster happens, not blame them for it!

  210. God is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Exactly, that is what I have been saying – he wants all to come to know Him. Narrow is the way which leads to life and few there be who find it, and broad is the way which leads to destruction, AND MANY ENTER IN BY IT (destruction) but they till enter in!

    They will enter in BY DESTRUCTION, not to it.

    It is not God who is judging, it is WE who judge ourselves.

    I actually believe that all will eventually come to repentance.

    Yes I agree that the time in the kingdom is NOW – that salvation and grace are for now, but if the congregation of the saints is saved with such difficulty, how shall it be for those who are outside?

    I have seen visions of a world wide harvest of souls at the end of the age, and I believe that will be very soon. But can you tell me why when I awoke early this morning to a beautiful blue sky, interspersed with aerosol trails, that with a matter of mere hours, it was completely clouded over, which keeps happening, and why when the sun is out is like being exposed to radiation and stings and even leaves welts in your skin? What is that all about?

    What about the warnings that at the end of the Age men would become mockers and lovers of self and haters of God? I can see why you focus on that side of the paradox of salvation – and maybe it makes us comforted to think that the poor Palestinian doctor and his family were not cynically used by evil men to create an incident?

    I totally love, like and agree with what you say about all the good stuff and God’s intention that none be lost – totally agree – but I also think that there is another side to all this.

    There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus – but do you know what the condemnation Paul is speaking of is? It is the Law of condemnation. We who believe are no longer under the Law, which is the default position to grace and for us there is but One Command which fulfills all. Fine, cannot agree more.

    The Pharisees tested Jesus, asking Him which was the greatest commandment. He said, “love the Lord with all your being and the second, which is just like ti, to love your neighbor as yourself – on this hangs all the LAW and the PROPHETS.

    They commended Him, even though it seems he rewrote the second commandment. Yet later, to HIS OWN FOLLOWERS He said, “A NEW commandment I give to you, that you should love, one to another, even as I (from the) first, loved you.”

    I guess it is really an issue of timing – is this the end of the Age and is the Son of Man coming soon or later? I think it is – but only time will tell. I guess the one ting we can all agree upon is that more than anything else, we all need to know Jesus, and to have the mind of Christ.

  211. You see, that wasn’t so hard! You actually made sense.

    You lose people when you do that Jesus told me stuff! We all hear from the Spirit, but sometimes we need to be careful about how we discuss it, because we’re not always hearing an audible voice, usually we are prompted by the Spirit, or sense His leading in a certain way.

    I believe in New Testament prophecy, and have been used of God at times, but not every five minutes, and generally to edify, comfort or encourage the Church, not to condemn it.

    If there is a warning about a coming situation, disaster or necessity for change, then I believe it should be judged by those recognised in the Church with knowing and being familiar with the gifts. All prophecy should be judged.

    I believe we are in the last days, since Pentecost, but not in what is considered the last days tribulation. That is yet to come, but I do not believe the Church will go through it, although natural Israel will, and, in fact, will be at the centre of it.

  212. What I heard is we will be KEPT FROM THE JUDGMENT WHICH IS TO COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD, but that we would no be saved from it, per se, but saved through it.

    As you do Steve, I do not believe we get zapped out of here – we have a job to do, to gather up the scattered sheep. The catching away happens at the last Trump.

    I think maybe the reason why i do see so many visions is that I will actually speak about it. I never asked for them, you do not choose you calling or gifting, though you can pray for gifts to be granted, so I have learned to pray and to ask for people to be granted visions so that they may see for themselves.

    I find that it encourages people.

    Back when I “saw” or was shown the quakes to come, as was our youngest and eldest sons; our middle boy, who is a real sweet heart, had not been. I was concerned as to a word given early this year that “By the time this is over, there will hardly be a home or heart left unbroken in Canterbury and you will have to learn to deal with real loss”. All I could think was “NOT MY BOYS, please!” I prayed that Joel would be given his own dream – and a few weeks later he told me of a vivid, hyper-pixel “you are here” dream of being in a building when a big EQ hit and that although everyone one was panicking and losing it, in the dream he felt complete calm and knew exactly what to do and felt no fear. Now that is salvation at work.

    I prayed that his fiance would have her own revelation, and she dreamed of being in high building and there being a quake and sudden Tsunami and of looking for Joel and not being able to find him.

    Now she wants to buy a house at the beach because you can get them nice and cheap – and you don’t think I am not going to do all I can to try and prevent that from happening? None of that fatalism “If its your time” for me.

    In 1995, I lay on a hospital bed, dying. I prayed, “God, if this is my time, then I am happy to go, buy if I still have work to do, then please send me a doctor who knows what he is doing.” The next morning, a new Doc came on rounds, saw what I had been charted and indignantly ordered the nurse to “Get this rubbish out of here” and charted me some very expensive uber effective antibiotics. Three days later I was out of the woods and well on the way to recovery. He commented, “We nearly lost you there” and I said, “Yeah, I sensed I was dying” and he said, “But we were not about to tell you…I just put $125,000 up your arm, you better be worth it. (The other doctor had been giving me the generic garbage.)

    Why did I not get a miracle and what was I doing so sick in the first place? Because I was in strife, in a bad business partnership and I found out later my partner’s witch of a wife wanted me dead. But I was till saved.

    God numbers our days – three score years and ten, and more with good health. Don’t settle for less!

    And when I asked what the “loss” might entail, I got a prompt “To count all things LOSS that I might GAIN Christ. Loss means dung, as in that which passes out in the draft.

    Condemnation means the Law of condemnation. Condemnation is not about bagging someone but about their being burdened by conditionality. Paul was comparing the Law of Condemnation, the Law of the Jews, with the Gospel of the Grace of God and His kingdom. The Law is the schoolmaster which brings us to Christ, and now that the Promise has come, we have no more need of an in-structor as we are IN. Now we need a con-structor to build us up on our most Holy Faith. The doctors of the Law still fashion burdens to shut up the kingdom of God against men.

    And what is the kingdom of God? IT is not meat or drink, or any conditions, it does not come by THE OBSERVATION OR KEEPING OF THE LAW. The kingdom of God is; Peace, Joy and Righteousness in the Holy Spirit. And that is SALVATION!

  213. Oh, and Q, not only do you want to tell folk, you just cannot shake it nor particularly focus on anything but the vision. When it first happened to me, the Pastor and people at my WOF church could not shut me down fast enough, as the vision was totally contrary to what they were preaching (Dominionism).

    I have had my Jonah time – but God ordained a huge fish to compel me toward His destination – called Church – it swallows us and spits us out where He wills.

    In Revelation, where it talks about spewing of spitting you out of my mouth, the Aramaic renders it “I will give you OF MY MOUTH – which means, “I will have WORDS WITH YOU!” His Rod is His Word.

    Yet I have heard so many thoroughly researched and reasoned theories about what this means theologically speaking. This is why I appreciate the Aramaic so much – compare the Hell-in-ized versions and a lot of golden calves start to look like being made of brass.

    By the way, the heavens being made of brass speaks of “a sounding brass or clanging cymbal” – as in you pray but only hear your own reverberation. That is for someone in this community who has been seeking a breakthrough.

    OT praying is trying to get your prayer TO the throne, NT is getting your prayer FROM the throne. Lord, teach us how to pray. However, this kind of faith does not manifest except by the communication of God and separation from the world. (This kind (of faith) does not come out except by prayer and fasting.) See, most folk thought or were taught that was all about classes of demons instead of being about all about faith and overcoming unbelief.

    Once in a meeting about 10yrs. ago, the preacher was proclaiming a “giving” message from Galatians. He was struggling personally with finances and was over-committed. As he was reading out of Galatians 5 an began to hold forth when out of my heart came, quite matter of factly, “That is not what that means” – he looked stunned and said, “My god, you’re right”.

    Funny thing is, I did not really know deeply what it meant, but I did know what it did not. Yet that scripture misapplied keeps millions in bondage to plundering pastors – pecuniary pedophiles, grooming their victims.

    A wee while later, he was still struggling and has his house on the market. I went to him by the Holy Spirit and gave him some vouchers for a seafood restaurant and told him he was to make a booking to celebrate the sale of his house. He did so, in faith, and a few days before, out of the blue, a guy closed a deal for his asking price (it was a lot of money). The deal was signed off just before they were due to go to dinner.

    The very thing which was preventing him entering in was a Pharisaic burden which he was perpetuating – but he knew the voice of God enough that when He spoke through my mouth, he heeded it and was “saved”.

    You should hear my teaching on the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, then you might see why the bowls are full to overflowing!

    I will pray that God give you all your own dream, vision, word etc, as befits your situation and calling. But don’t test God or me, just say yes or no in your heart, and sleep on it. 0(:->)

  214. Ian – if you send me an email with a document of your teaching on Blaspheming the Holy Spirit we can post it up here for all to discuss.

    belindagreg[a.t]bigpond[d.o.t]com

  215. Glad to – its a big subject and many people suffer from an acute sense of condemnation over it. The answer is very freeing but also very confronting.

    As for warnings and salvation and tribulations – when God told me in in 2001 that there was a big EQ coming, but not to be afraid as “I would not be hurt”, I asked him to show me what to do to prepare and asked Him to take away any sense of fear. When it hit we wereprepared and I felt no fear. My wife said that when she grabbed me, all fear left her. At not time did I get the leading or sense to jump ship to Oz, but rather to stay put as this is where I am called to. Salvation is all about obedience in the circumstances you find yoruself in. Like Corrie ten Boom in a concentration camp. In the West we have had a bit of an armchair ride really, but I saw glimpses of the Beast manifest after the earhquakes, The faith of some comes forth as gold tried in the fire, but others are left smouldering stubble, yet ALL are saved AS BY FIRE. As in you either fall on the Rock, or…..

    By the way, you will perhaps notice that the Word uses the metaphor of faith, hope and love being gold, silver and precious gems. And God’s throne is made of Sapphire. Wow – that’s style. I have seen the pure blue radiant presence of the Holy Spirit. By the way, the Seven colors of the rainbow do correspond to the Seven Eyes or Spirits of God. And then there are the seven ills of the Seven congregations of Asia Minor, and of course the ubiquitous seven deadly sins…

  216. “I believe we are in the end times….“

    In 6 billion yeears time they’ll be saying the same thing if we don’t destroy the Earth, get hit by an asteroid or perish from an expanding, dying star.

  217. Btw Ian, did you have any interesting conversations with the Wizard? I’m surprised the town was big enough for the two of you.

  218. Just getting back to topic, I read this gem this morning

    ” Lebanon’s Hezbollah group would fire thousands of rockets into Israel in any future war and target cities in the country’s heartland, the group’s leader said Sunday.Sheik Hassan Nasrallah’s warning came days after an eight-day Israeli offensive against Gaza ended with a truce. Nasrallah said Gaza militants had won “a clear victory” against Israel with their rocket bombardment.”

    I think instead of a fence, Israel should just build some kind of impenetrable bubble

    Anyone here think that if Israel gave all the land back that the Palestinians and the terrorist groups wanted, that hostilities would stop is living in lala land. Really.

  219. The wizard is quite a decent chap really – died in the wool Anglican – highly intelligent – and he opens his blog to anyone of any beliefs as an open forum – all he asks is that you be decent and respectful. A Christian man I know once commanded him out of the Square, and the Wiz waz run out. My friend was quite proud of this manifestation, but years later when he was boasting about it, I heard in my heart that he was merely a much stronger witch and did not know it. Christian witches are the worst kind.

    A bit of Q and A for you Q – the sense I so solidly get is that this is all a grand panto – its a play – which is scripted to a predictable conclusion – the unveiling of the world leader who shall be the Beast of Bible prophecy. Whoever crafts a peace accord will be the one – no matter who that might be – he will be the one to watch, but he will fool the majority, who will be bought off by a wave of peace and prosperity such as has never been seen, and then a crash the likes of which has never been seen.

    And when they shall say, “Peace and safety”, then shall sudden destruction come as with a woman in labor.” The next few years will be fascinating.

  220. By the way Q, that blue is like the most beautiful Sapphire you could ever possibly imagine, and yet still not truly convey its beauty. It is like the pure essence of Peace and it manifest when you release it in faith. It is why Lions become like lambs. It is only yours to manifest when you are in the Spirit and by His will.

    It is unique, like the Lord’s scent – have you smelled it? He let me do so once! It is like Frankincense and Myrrh and Rose – it is like the essence of scent – it is exquisite and impossibly addictive, hence why he only allowed me a mere whiff. If you could bottle it you would rule the world – not kidding. It makes our perfumes small like dunny water.

    And then there are heavenly choirs – the music is simply amazing, simply incredible – one night in high worship we sang with the heavenly choirs accompanying us – many heard it and were utterly amazed. I have never heard music of such majesty and power.

  221. Ian, I’ve never seen, smelt or heard angels, heaven, God or the presence of God.

    What kind of music was it? If you could think of a similar type song and tempo, please describe it more.

    As for the Beast, I’m no expert on those things. I just don’t know.
    Actually, I lean towards amillenialism.

    I’ve been bearing people explain that we are in the very last days for the last 30 years, and the more I read it seems that the Azusa St people and the Holiness people before them believed that too.

    Having said that, it wouldn’t surprise me if the were devastating earthquakes, a total financial collapse and crazy level wars basically anytime.

    I just don’t know. But, the more I read about people throughout history who made great predictions and were obviously wrong, the less I feel bad for not having strong opinions on the subject.

    For the record, I’d be really genuinely surprised if Obama or Prince Charles were the anti-christ.

    Bones…..? Well I still have my suspicions. But every now and then he comes up with something too Godly so I’ve almost counted him out. But I’m still watching him!

    🙂

  222. I thought I was the antichrist once – but I checked, and the tattoo was only 665..so I was cool

  223. And then there are heavenly choirs – the music is simply amazing, simply incredible – one night in high worship we sang with the heavenly choirs accompanying us – many heard it and were utterly amazed. I have never heard music of such majesty and power.

    OK, that’s the one where I just have to call it…BULLSHIT!

  224. And then there are heavenly choirs – the music is simply amazing, simply incredible – one night in high worship we sang with the heavenly choirs accompanying us – many heard it and were utterly amazed. I have never heard music of such majesty and power.

    Said the same at an Oils concert.

    And when I’m alone with my wife!

  225. Sorry Greg – it was real – there were a few times there when it got to be very high praise – I used to be a worship leader – it used to get too hot the Pastor in our church – sorry if you have not had the experience – ask! You have to have a hunger to know Him. Q – the music was like the most unimaginably beautiful chorus of voices lifted in praise to God – quite a moment – like heaven and earth met or touched in that room – we had a season of it, which was unfortunately short, as they so often seem to be. I was new to all this stuff, I was very skeptical, very cautious, but I also knew the voice of My Shepherd and that was where he led me for a season.

    The Lord bade me go back three times, and each time I was very guarded, but He bade me do it, and though this was all new to me, His voice had become quite familiar over the years, and I knew His voice, and I obeyed.

    At the third time, I bowed my head, and as was my habit, rather than look at the folk and judge them for any manifestation which to me seemed alien or unusual, I simply focused on Jesus, who had led me there and who bade me to congregate together with them. The leader of this group I knew from church circles, and I knew him to anointed and called of God. As I focused on the Lord, suddenly I had a vision, of unusual clarity and hyper real super mega pixel clarity – of the face of Jesus nailed to the execution stake. I saw His brow pierced by thorns, I saw his downcast eyes look up at me, I saw them burn through me like hot searching torches, I felt Him look right into my very being, and being found wanting. I felt completely undone and unutterably blessed all at once, and let out a holler! I was pierced through. It was another lesson, another blow against my hard religious heart.

    Sorry Greg – it’s there for the asking – and I asked – but I was compelled to ask – so maybe even the asking is a gift. I can only relate what I have seen, and hope that it may resonate with some, and even that some may have seen such things too.

    Then some time later I had a vision of my hand being the hand of the Roman soldier who hammered in the nails, yet my hand was as if the hand of God and I could not help but do what i was born to do. For it pleased GOD to offer up His only Son – but it would be fair to say, that we should have, indeed could have, stayed our hands – yet it was not to be – God followed through and Jesus reconciled the price for sin by overcoming death. Yet His eyes implored me to fulfill what I must and I did it with burning hot tears. Have you not had such things? Surely someone in this community has had some freakish things happen?

    People have become afraid of manifestations, not realizing that the Bible is full of such things as examples to us. Thinking that the age of miracles has passed is a form of spiritual lassitude – it is convenient to think ‘cos they don’t happen to me, they don’t happen at all. Trouble is, they do happen – and i have had the privilege to be involved in some outstanding miracles of God, and believe me, I do so count it a privilege. I did not make me. When I was about 3 1/2yrs old, my mother was sitting worrying where our father was. Apparently I looked up from what I was playing with and said, “He’s had an accident, he’s dead”.

    60 miles away my father was in hospital, and had nearly died in an auto accident Well, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets – I was only 3 1/2 after all. 0(:->)

  226. Q – it is all there for the asking – he or she who comes to God MUST believe that HE IS, and that HE IS the rewarder, the REWARDER, of those who, with diligence, seek Him. He rewards you with Himself – you have but to ask and then to confidently expect that your prayer shall be answered. I was always a bit of a doubting Thomas, needing to see the holes in His hands and His side, but remember, when it came to seeing the “WHOLE” IN HIS HAND AND IN HIS SIDE – Thomas ventured further afield than any – and the church he planted in Goa is still functioning.

    I perceive that perhaps primary difference between you and me is that I am curious and you are a curate? And you are the explorer already? Is that Binoculars that you be using Greg or a Collide-o-scope? Please, don’t be so off-hand – run it past the real Jesus – you might be surprised – in fact – in a lot of ways you are me circa 1999, before I really met Jesus. I’m a cheeky sod, yes? Bloody Kiwi’s. 0(:-})

  227. Bones –
    Blasphemeo: to blaspheme, rail at or revile, is used in a general way, of any contumelious speech, reviling, calumniating , railing at etc., as of those who railed at Christ….
    of those who speak contemptuously of God or of sacred things…
    W.E.Vines.

  228. Ian,

    Pitt the Younger to Edmund Blackadder.

    “Pooh to you, with knobs on!”.

    And of course

    “Now; any history of insanity in the family? Tell you what, I’ll cross out the in. Any history of *sanity* in the family? None whatsoever.”

  229. Interesting read Bones. I don’t think that comment means that he thinks the Palestinians are right and Israel is wrong.

    He also said that if he we Iranian he’d try to get the bomb.

    No doubt he would have been a kamikaze if he were Japanese in WW2.

    It’s like me saying if I were a leftwing nutbag I’d be you.

    I think….lol

  230. @Greg

    Ian is either quite mad – literally, or a compulsive liar, or someone with more spiritual experiences than anyone I know.

    Or someone with a vivid imagination.

    I’ve probably spent too much time hanging around with pentecostals. Hearing someone say they hear heavenly choirs, seen visions, and recognized the fragrance of the Holy Spirit is something I’ve heard many times.

    I don’t think it’s impossible for someone to see a vision in this day and age. Nor do I think God could never let someone hear heaven though I think it’s super unlikely.

    It doesn’t really upset me. And if Ian is a regular guy he shouldn’t really get upset if people don’t believe him. You can’t believe every story you hear.

    What I like about Ian is that he isn’t asking people to send him money to get the full story.

  231. By the way, it doesn’t change anyone opinions on the Middle East conflict – but just to set the record straight.

    Remember the child killed in Gaza that the PM held in the picture that got people hating on Israel as usual……

    “While the boy was allegedly killed by an IDF airstrike, it occurred during the time that a ceasefire was in effect for the visit of the Egyptian PM. A ceasefire that Hamas broke, firing more rockets while even Israel refrained from launching airstrikes.

    The truth has now emerged. Credit to some journalists for admitting, for once, that Israel was not the responsible party. The Sunday Telegraph reports (emphasis added):

    But there were signs on Saturday that not all the Palestinian casualties have been the result of Israeli air strikes. The highly publicised death of four-year-old Mohammed Sadallah appeared to have been the result of a misfiring home-made rocket, not a bomb dropped by Israel.

    The child’s death on Friday figured prominently in media coverage after Hisham Kandil, the Egyptian prime minister, was filmed lifting his dead body out of an ambulance. “The boy, the martyr, whose blood is still on my hands and clothes, is something that we cannot keep silent about,” he said, before promising to defend the Palestinian people.

    But experts from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights who visited the site on Saturday said they believed that the explosion was caused by a Palestinian rocket.

    There is only one party that not only deliberately targets innocent Israeli children but also has no qualms about putting the lives of Palestinian children at risk.”

  232. Interesting read Bones. I don’t think that comment means that he thinks the Palestinians are right and Israel is wrong.

    He also said that if he we Iranian he’d try to get the bomb.

    No doubt he would have been a kamikaze if he were Japanese in WW2.

    It’s like me saying if I were a leftwing nutbag I’d be you.

    Yeah I know.

    Atheists have made comments like that about religion. It depends largely upon where you were born, how you were raised and your environment upon whether you are saved or damned.

    That’s one of the reasons why Universalism makes sense.

  233. So, Bones, do you know much about Arafat’s use of money? ie. How much money he was in control of, where he invested it, and how much of it was used for the poor people of Gaza?
    Do you think he had the best interests of the Palestinians at heart?

    You probably know what I think about him. And you probably should be aware that if he was assassinated, I probably won’t shed too many tears over it.

  234. That’s right Q. Israel can build anywhere she wants and then not allow others access to their own land.

    Jesus wouldn’t have a problem with that, would he?

  235. And you probably should be aware that if he was assassinated, I probably won’t shed too many tears over it.

    Yeah Arafat was corrupt. But he was better than Hamas. And I do believe he was elected.

    If Netanyahu was assassinated you’d be whining like a stuck pig out for vengeance.

    (But not for Rabin of course! Left wing nutter!)

  236. Bones – I think that the craftiest thing the Sanhedrin did to salvation was to make it SELL-vation. They sold the concept that you have to “invite Jesus into your heart, life etc.

    The Talmudist Jews believe that they are the only ones who are “saved” and the only ones who are “men” and that all others are Goy or human cattle, so selling dispensationalism was easy – and Christians in effect became honorary Jews and were saddled with the law of condemnation. Oh foolish Gay-laitans! LOL.

    This has become deeply ingrained in the American psyche – so-much-so that Christian Zionism has become perhaps the most dangerous deception at work in the planet. You guys are quick to tell me to “do it by the book” and the book is quite plain on the matter in that a certain blindness of heart afflicts a portion of Israel until all the nations come in in their entirety, and then all Israel shall be saved (when God removes from them the abomination of Jacob – the love of money).

    That sounds very UNIVERSAL to me. eh Bones? The irony is that such people think that they are the first in God’s affections but that he who would be first shall be last and the last first.

    The fundamental of Universal Salvation is that God had a Lamb slain from before time; that in Christ ALL died, and all were raised together with Him, and that God’s standard is intention, and it His intention that all should be saved. As to the how He manages tat, well He is God and nothing is impossible to Him and he is in everyone – so He does not have to go far to find you.

    Where people confuse salvation, from Jews to Jihadists to just plain jerks, is that they think it is conditional – but sin was imputed to you just as righteousness was imputed to you – you were not saved by your free gift of God, is often confused with temporal salvation, the appropriation and application of he gift in the here and now.

    We are lured into the mistake of thinking that it is for us to save the world, to get the world saved, when Jesus has already “saved” by a completed work – the finished work of Calvary.

    All these bozos are dickering about is to whom was the promise made and who is the SEED of Abraham. If you reduce it to the simplest of elemental explanations it strips away the illusion of complications caused by amateur ‘providences’ or rescuers offering salvation and their answers, when in reality it is the job of Jesus to get people to heaven – it falls to us to get heaven to people – to be Ambassadors of heaven – representatives of the Most High.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that when a man dies, his body goes back to the ground from whence it came and his spirit returns to God who gave it. That is so simple even a child could understand – to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Only a Doctor of the Law or an idiot could confuse that. But to certain of the Jews, if you are not of Jacob, then you are not a man – you have no “God” in you. But the big question is, to what do they serve as god, what is it that stands in the Holy place saying it is God? I suspect that it is Mammon, and that they are in fact “cut off” with respect to us so that we may be included. Its all in Romans 11.

  237. Sorry guys, I must have bumped a line. DOH!

    Should read:

    – you were not saved by your own oaths, but by the free gift of God, which is often confused with temporal salvation, the appropriation and application of the gift in the here and now.

  238. Wow. Right wing propaganda presented as fact.

    Why am I not surprised.

    Here is a video of Q’s current class.

    See if you can spot Q in this video. I can.

    PS you can always trust Steve to pull out the far right wing propaganda, then announce he doesn’t believe it and we should just be interested in the gospel.

    Hypocrite.

  239. You can always trust the extreme lefty to be upset by reasoned humour! And add some sliming remark to take their minds off the truth in case it sinks in!

  240. I could put some other ‘funny’ videos up but I don’t want someone threatening to report me again.

    Oh and what’s the truth about building settlements on Palestinian land.

    Notice the right wing nutbag Klavan ‘conveniently’ left that out.

    Haha here’s a joke, the Jews kicked out some Palis and took their houses and they ain’t allowed back.

    Hohoho.

    And here’s the punch line.

    They have to suck it.

    ROFL

    Ah that should make you smile.

  241. But, Bones, if you have any courage of your convictions why do you fear censure?

    Surely it is the leftist way to crush dissent when it speaks truth to end the discomfort, because to the leftist mind there is only one view and it is their’s, so, even if there is a reasonable counter view, it must be either ‘educated’ out of them, by leftist teachers, or silenced – by law, and therefore, by leftist lawyers!

    Just see how the labour Government seeks to end freedom of speech in Australia, which is really a way of stopping the criticism of bad policy. I wonder where we’ve seen that sort of totalitarianism before?

    Anyway, since you have thrown around enough accusations about my character (a la Gillard re- any critic) to render me immune to your worse, here is another opportunity to open your mind to some political home truths.

  242. Looks like I’ve got you scared Bones. Maybe that’s a good thing – anti-semitism disgusting, so be careful of which websites you frequent.

    I’l look at your video later, after I finish weeping over the foolishness of Jimmy Carter’s love fest with terrorists.

    btw, here’s one for our wonderful internet researchers.

    Who said this.

    “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.”

    Hint, he also says Israel has no right to exist.

    btw Bones, do you think Israel has the right to exist?

    Keep coming with those videos Steve.

  243. Oh no poor Steve’s politics is under attack. It’s a shame isn’t it that women can vote and receive the same wages as men for the same work; that blacks aren’t still taken away from their parents, that gays aren’t still in jail, or shock horror that the US has brought in affordable health care for the poor (bad, bad Obama).

    Btw I was brought up believing that General Custer and the whites in the US Indian wars were the good guys. I remember pretending to shoot Indians and cheer John Wayne. Now the naughty bad revisionist liberals have revealed the whites for the genocidal maniacs they were destroying Indian culture. Same with the Aborigines. Or maybe forced adoptions was really a good thing.

    Maybe in the future Steve, your hero George W Bush will be painted as a hero rather than the lying warmonger that his own party doesn’t want anything to do with.

    It’s a liberal and secular world. You reap the benefits of it though you hate it.

    You’ve been left behind.

    With the dodo.

    Why don’t you show Klavan’s anti-Obama spin as well. Especially his man-love for Mitt Romney like Shut Up and Vote Romney. Yep that worked.

    Still sulking over that I bet.

    Btw I’m not a Gillard supporter. She’s a pure political opportunist.

    Australian politics is garbage.

    Will Steve ever say anything about Israel’s settlements and the stealing of Palestinian land?

    Let’s compare:

    Jesus: Yes He would condemn it.

    Steve: Ummm no.

  244. Bones, I suggest you sell your house, give it to the aborigines, and go conduct gay marriages in Palestine to support yourself while you fire rockets into Israel. That is after you’ve travelled the world apologizing for being white and Christian. Joy unspeakable….

  245. This Klavan guy is great. I think we should lock up Bones in a padded cell and just keep playing this over and over. Maybe one day he can get de-programed.

  246. I don’t cry when people criticize Israel. But I feel like it when I remember the holocaust and see that after all this time when hundreds of rockets fall, there are people who call themselves Christians who start listing everything bad they can about Israel.

    Yeah, it’s sad. Satan is alive and well on planet earth I suppose.

    Speaking of Gillard…..interesting that the PM of Australia can risk losing her job because members of her party are worried about how Muslims in their electorates will react.

  247. I think we should lock up Bones in a padded cell and just keep playing this over and over

    Yeah that’s called rendition. A favourite conservative tactic to destroy those who disagree with you.

    Oh maybe Klavan will say those Christians who killed other Christians were actually liberals.

    I wonder if you keep saying it over and over you start to believe it? Is that how it works?

    Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good.Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good.Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good.Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good.

    Nope doesn’t work.

    I’m immune to those mind games.

  248. Does Maher know most Christians?

    Sounds like he made most of his criticism up so that he had one.

    I see a comparison between his methodology and yours.

    If they don’t actually say or do something you think they do to prove your argument, then make it up and publish it anyway so you can say they’re hypocrites and look as if you actually have an argument.

    That’d be why you like Maher!

    But his isn’t satire.

    No! His is a string of bad jokes aimed at a certain group for the sake of laughs at their expense.

    There is a subtle difference, Bones. Perhaps you can find it if you take the blinkers off!

  249. What’s that you say? You didn’t know you had blinkers on?

    You mean nobody told you?

    Oh, well, now, there is a problem!

  250. And the other essential for Maher is to make sure the audience is sympathetic to his cause and jokes in the hope that random listeners might be attracted by the laughter and snared.

    That has a very limited shelf-life, as do his jokes.

    And you think he is better articulating Christian thought than Christians?

    I think he snared you too, but that was almost too easy, given your own opinion of Christians.

  251. We’ve already had someone celebrating the death of an enemy on here.

    So yeah his criticism is warranted.

    Actually when I pointed out Jesus’s words I was laughed at.

    So yeah we do dismiss Jesus’s words.

    What was that again?

    Settlements?

    You don’t have blinkers on. You’ve got your head up your @rse.

    Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

  252. So guilt by association claims again!

    Must mean you have nothing on me in reality.

    Again!

    You make things up as you go along. You should write novels. Fiction is your speciality. Friction your game.

  253. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good.Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good.Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good.Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good. Settlements are good.

    Spoken by Bones who loves Bill Maher, can’t wait to dig up the grave of his idol Arafat, goes on copy and paste frenzies digging up anything he can to show that Israel, evangelicals, and white Americans are the biggest problems in the world.

    Yep, so when will you sell your house, give the proceeds to the Aborigines and go volunteer with Hamas, Bones?

    You’ll probably be able to get Maher and Michael Moore on cable.
    I’d just keep the Jesus talk down… most of the people you love and admire and agree with don’t follow Jesus.

  254. Sorry, I forgot. Was it me who was the baddie for rejoicing when someone was killed?

    I can’t even remember who it was. Arafat or Bin Laden or Hitler?

    You have a great memory Bones – for some things…

    btw, I have a project for you. You seem to like Jimmy Carter right?

    How about this – your research assistant Wazza can help you.

    Make a list of all the things Hamas, the PLO and some of the other groups you like…have said concerning the destruction of Israel and the Jews. Then under that, list the comments Carter has made saying how these groups “really just want peace”

    I could do it, but I know your hobby is copying and pasting.

    It might prove educational for you.

    Hint…..if you do it comprehensively you night look at both Hamas and Carter with new eyes.

  255. On behalf of education departments everywhere I apologise for the poor education you received in critical literacy and thinking. Thankfully education has moved on.

  256. Spoken by a man who is so unable to frame an argument that he madly copies and pastes in such a frenzied way that he doesn’t realize that what he is pasting are blatant lies from a holocaust denying site.

    If there is anything wrong with my critical thinking, yeah, blame it on teachers like you.

  257. Ladies, please – a little decorum!

    So Greg, were you going to post my piece on blasphemy?

    Or did it seem to be a little too blasphemous for comfort?

  258. Aaah don’t you love conservative Christians threatening their opponents with banishment and being locked up. All because they can’t of form an argument.

    See Bill Maher’s right. At least he doesn’t pretend to be a Christian and the rest of the world sees the hypocrisy of it all.

  259. Bones, lighten up. Nobody can actually banish you.
    And you haven’t come up with any argument. In fact you have probably forgotten what you were arguing about.

    Originally all I was saying that Israel had the right to fight back and try to take out the people who had been continually firing rockets at their children.

    That for some reason got you talking about ……well, all the different things you copy and paste ..until we got to Custer’s last stand..

    But anyway, you go right on hero-worshiping Bill Maher.

    But here’s some friendly advice. If you spend half the time just reading the Bible as you do watching Bill Maher and reading anti-Christian websites you’d probably have a different view of things.

  260. Hey Greg – yes, SIN-tax error on the email address – all duly dispatched and repented.

    The explanation I have given is a bit like the difference between the POWER being the good news and the Good News biing the power. There is a divide – you either get it,or you don’t – and I do not mean that arrogantly. I tried to explain it to a theologian – he went “tilt”. I love to tilt theologians with some the-olog-ians.

    It is like either you “get” Jesus, or you do not – there is no room for equivocation, there is no vacilation, either He IS or He is not.

    Or as my wife says,”If it is not ALL ABOUT JESUS, then what is it all about? Without Him, there is simply nothing, there is no meaning, there is no Life.”

    God either is, or he is not – no debate – just He is or He is not. He will do all the explaining of Himself he needs to. Now here is a quirk – the theologian concerned actually taught me a wonderful lesson from Matthew 16 many years ago, in that the Rock of our Salvation is the sure foundation which comes from the Father telling you who the Son is, and the Some telling you, by the Spirit, who you are.

    You never know just which Ass God will speak through, yes?

  261. Bill Mahar is a putz! He is a God hating, Christian hating prick – sorry – if he was in front of me I would smack him straight in the schnoz and take it up with Jesus later. And I can still throw a mean right cross, with a feint to the left. LOL!

  262. Bill’s OK. He’s funny and makes some good points. I found Religulous a very interesting documentary on how the irreligious views religion.

    You’d love him, Q.

    He hates Muslims.

  263. Bill Mahar reminds me of most God haters – on the surface he seems almost human, witty, urbane, gregarious – but underneath they are ravening wolves. I saw him speak about “Taking out” the “Right kind” of people – in other words, those who do not fit his Zionist/Communist world view. He is unequivocal in his support of Obama – those who are fooled by the Obama puppet either know nothing or more than they let on – and being an upper echelon Media Muppet, either someone has their hand up his bum or he is up with the play.

    There are two sides to the Nazism/Zionism paradigm – Fascism and Communism, the “good and evil” of the tree of knowledge.

    Actually, the most exquisite revenge to have upon someone like Bill is to PRAY for him, ‘cos let’s face it, we were all God hating pricks at some stage, and still can be when we forget ourselves.

    Eventually God will nail everyone – you cannot get away – give up – you are surrounded!

    Atheists remind me of children who have never grown up – it is their false shepherds who need shooting – the worst form of child abuse is the deliberate undermining of a child’s faith, no matter what form the “penetration” takes. One of the most sinister operations of Satan in America has been Disney Corporation. Study up on Walt’s background, his acute strangeness and predilections and the down line affect of the enchanting of generations of little lambs – today we have Harry Potter and such drivel – or Peter Jackson’s pseudo-religion of Middle Earth.

    All the sideshows are set up to keep the people distracted, distressed and divided – and ultimately you are constrained to choose between Zionism and Nazism – International Socialism or National Socialism – and both strains of this death disease of the Tree of Knowledge are utterly contrary to Christ – the Tree of Life.

    You guys need to get out of your trees more often.

    WE are not to hate anyone, but it is OK to hate what they do. For the most part people “Do not know what they do” but there are those who do – I met such a one once – he was so given over to evil just being in the same room with him made my skin crawl and want to get as far away from him as possible – he was the Belgian Ambassador – his presence felt to me like pure evil – yet to others there I guess that was ‘normal’. Why? Because they are of the same spirit.

    It was after that disturbing encounter that I was given a vision of Wellington destroyed and again later the word, “I will divide all those who divide the land for gain.” God is going to divide the hypocrites and to destroy the wicked. Sorry, that is just the way it is, there is no good news for them, they have already rejected God and His Light Jesus and their condemnation is sure – for they have condemned themselves.

    0(:->)

  264. I am not an anything really, except a believer being unravelled and sifted and reuced, so to serve God in the coming chaos.

    I have an idea of what Jesus meant by dividing a man and giving him his share with the hypocrites. I have seen the God created in His image spirit of a person literally come out and be manifest, but it is usually hidden under the flesh, the husk which conceals the kernal, the crust which conceals the Christ.

    The weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth in otuer darkness is the realisation of all that is contrary to Christ and to calling – the what we should have done but were too busy fostering our own comfort. When the Life God designed and the life Man built is compared in stark contrast, and the love of God becomes apparent. I still think that it is about correction rather than punishment, but is not punishment itself corrective in the correct context?

    It has been my habit to pray over situations which arise, such as people going missing – and often I here of the outcomes and have even seen visions of where corpses are. Most often I just get an assurance that they are with Jesus. One time though all I got was the most awful silence – like God had turned His back – it was a dreadful feeling of NOTHINGNESS – like a void, a black hole utterly devoid of life and emotion – it was only once – but it was like, “Don’t even bother – he’s lost.” Kind of a reverse narrow way if that makes sense.

    As to the final dispositon of all things, when I first began to seriously question, I asked Jesus just who goes to heaven and who to hell? He answered me according to my delusion, “Ian, it’s like this; what is of Me returns to Me, and what is not, does not.”

    In the wider sense, all is of, for and to Him, and by Him, all things consist, both in the heaven and in the earth. Even the Devil is God’s creation, even Lucifer, the angel of the false light. But as to the worthless servant, He said “Give him his portion..” It is all about ownership and Lordship – if you are owned, lock stock and barrel, then that is all there is to it. If you need to be “cut off” and flambeed before being grafted back in, then so be it. It is for God alone to judge – all I need to do is endeavor to walk out what he gives me to do, and work out my own salvation with reverence and understanding.

    But the one thing that gets me hopping mad is those who sell oil, those who merchandise faith, those who make God’s house a den of thieves, those whose business is SELL-VATION. I hate the ways of the Nicolaitans. And I hate the way people misrepresent God, who is Love, and who is Light and in Him there is no darkness neither shadow of turning. You can utterly rely upon Him – it is only man who is unreliable and contradictory, and so he eats the fruit of it – and then grizzles like it is God who has the problem already!

    The fruit of the Nazi-Zion good/evil tree of knowledge is DEATH!

    It is not about WHAT we know, but about Who we know, and that we are KNOWN of HIM, not what we know about Him.

  265. If you want to know what I mean by Nazism and Zionism being two sides of a paradigm of good and evil, I will send some stuff through to Greg which illustrates the good/evil light and dark paradigm of Freemasonry. Once your eyes start to open to how much you have been immersed in EYE-CONS and I-CONS it is quite confronting. Why do you think the enemy’s mob dominates entertainment and media? Why is it that Churches are so full of pagan symbols and practices? (Praizac, anyone?)

  266. Israel punishes Palestinians for UN recognition. Takes more land.

    Israel moves on West Bank

    Israel is moving forward with development of Jewish settlements in a contentious area east of Jerusalem, advancing a project that has long been condemned by international leaders as effectively dooming any prospect of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    A day after the UN General Assembly voted overwhelmingly to upgrade the status of the Palestinians, a senior Israeli official said the government would pursue ”preliminary zoning and planning preparations” for a development that would separate the West Bank cities of Ramallah and Bethlehem from Jerusalem. Such a project could prevent the creation of a viable, contiguous Palestinian state.
    The US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, criticised the decision in a speech in Washington attended by Israel’s Foreign Minister, Avigdor Lieberman, and the Defence Minister, Ehud Barak.

    ”In light of today’s announcement, let me reiterate that this administration – like previous administrations – has been very clear with Israel that these activities set back the cause of a negotiated peace,” Mrs Clinton said on Friday.

    A senior Israeli official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said on Friday the decision was made late on Thursday night to move forward on ”preliminary zoning and planning preparations” for housing units in E1, which would connect the large settlement of Maale Adumim to Jerusalem and therefore make it impossible to connect Ramallah and Bethlehem to Palestinian neighbourhoods of East Jerusalem.

    Israel also authorised the construction of 3000 housing units in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/israel-moves-on-west-bank-20121201-2annr.html

  267. @Q

    As wacky and way out as Ian appears, a lot of what he speaks is the truth. Once you sift the wheat from the chaff that is.

    @wazza

    I’ve been out of the loop for a while, so I am not aware of what is happening in your world, but I am praying for you.

  268. @Bones

    Why did the US and Canada (and Aust would have if Gillard had her way) vote the way they did recently.

    There were 9 countries including US and Israel who voted the way they did and 41 abstained I think. What is the logic behind the US vote. If you were a US voter who elected the Democrats, would you be disappointed?

    (said in non-argumentative tone)

    re Ian, I think he’s added a whole new dimension and perspective here

  269. And maybe my assertion that this whole Middle East set up is aimed at one thing – creating the situation which will allow for the world leader to be revealed. The Brits and Rothschild set it up, and please do not think for a minute that the highest echelons of power in Greta Britain were totally behind the “development” of Israel. Ask yourself why it is that the true Torah Jews don’t want anything to so with Israel and still wait for Messiah to come and call His people AFTER that HE has established HIS Government in the Land.

    The hordes of Gog, Magog, Gomer, Meschech, Tubal, Ethiopia etc. have come up and covered the Land. Hello! The Holy Land is not GOING to be invaded, it has already been invaded.

    The Sabbatean Talmudic, Kabbalist belief is the Israel is the Messiah nation, the Light of the World and that only Jewish people are real men. This seems to have largely escaped the attention of those who call themselves Christian. Just as the Muslim martyrs expect a gaggle of God’s girls to satisfy them in Paradise, the Talmudists believe that in their Brave New World they will have over 2000 personal slaves EACH!

    Bottom line is guys, the devil wants his planet back and he is working on a plan to do it and has done so for nigh on 2000yrs. It is in its final phases now Its kind of a reverse plan of redemption; instead of saving the world to unite it into ONE NEW MAN he intends to annihilate it and preserve his One World Order. Except someone forgot to tell the blind that Chaos can only beget Chaos, not Order out of Chaos.

    The enemies of God are utterly mad by virtue of the fact that they think that they can exalt their knowledge above God. I mean, come on, rebel against heaven? Come against God – you would have to be utterly mad, right?

    Jesus told me that in 1983 that in the last days that there would be a great apostasy – that all would fall away to some degree. More recently I asked Him what form this apostasy would take, and heard, “Apostasy is nothing more than having your own opinion instead of having the mind of Christ.” In other words, having your own opinion is the very “luxury” which has crafted chaos, which is why to a great extent all the opinions herein are vain, meaningless, and achieve nothing except to harden our own brass by beating on it all the more to try and be heard, lest we in fact have the Mind of Christ, and the fruits of Peace are sown in peace by those that make peace (their priority).

    When we had our EQ’s it soon became apparent that the Godlessness, the Beastliness in people was not far beneath the cultured surface – when the facades cracked so too did much of the pretense of niceness. The world is largely led by psychopathic personalities whose generation is mobs of sociopaths wearing civilized masks. The breakdown of decency and order here, in a city which is probably more civilized and genteel than most, was very confronting – my wife has had dreams of looting, rioting mobs after major EQ’s.

    I cannot help but feel that Israel has been set up to be the scape goat, that the whole game plan is to systematically destroy Christendom (Esau), Israel (Jacob) and Islam (Ishmael) while establishing a One World Dictatorship.

    In other words, this is simply REALITY TV and to get sucked into the maelstrom of opinions is not wise. Basically, to see it as anything other than the end game of a 2000yr old plan to get the planet you miss the crux of the matter and focus on the crust. As soon as we make it about flesh and blood we miss the whole point.

    There is a great division coming – the “church” will split between those who serve the Crown and the status quo, whose savior is satan, and those who serve the Savior, who is Jesus Christ. It will split between the socialist, ecumenical and the spiritual experiential reality of Christ in and on us.

    One of the last straws will be the legitimizing of homosexual marriage. This has been passed in principle and will be ratified soon, and will, I believe, presage a great cataclysm.

    Just for good measure, our local Druid weather guru, aka the Moon Man, has predicted a major EQ for December 13.

    What does this have to do with Israel? EVERYTHING. One of these days you will get it. It is all linked and Christchurch is a type of Jerusalem, but I cannot be bothered explaining it, I have work to do. Just watch this space for sudden development, and please remember, the Beast will fool virtually everyone initially – even you guys – and maybe especially you guys. Whoever makes the Middle East Peace Plan “seem” to work will be the one. Mark my words. NO matter who it is, it is HE! The Man of Good, the Man of Peace.

  270. OOPs, sorry that should read:

    And maybe my assertion that this whole Middle East set up is aimed at one thing – creating the situation which will allow for the world leader to be revealed, is correct. The Brits and Rothschild set it up, and please do not think for a minute that the highest echelons of power in Great Britain were NOT totally behind the “development” of Israel. Ask yourself why it is that the true Torah Jews don’t want anything to so with Israel and still wait for Messiah to come and call His people AFTER that HE has established HIS Government in the Land.

  271. What is the logic behind the US vote.

    To be perfectly honest, I dont think there is any valid logic behind the US vote. It is illogical to excoriate the Palestinians for not recognising Israel’s right to exist, and then vote not to recognise Palestine’s,

    It means that the Palestinians will have observer status in the UN, have the right to speak at meetings, and participate in procedural votes. Israel dosent want this, and the US usually votes in line with Israel on these matters – in order to keep a strategic alliance.

    If you were a US voter who elected the Democrats, would you be disappointed?

    Well … Yaah. But I would be rather used to disappointment.

  272. So why does Obama want to keep this strategic alliance so much even if his stance is so obviously wrong and hypocritical in your line of thinking?

  273. “. Ask yourself why it is that the true Torah Jews don’t want anything to so with Israel and still wait for Messiah to come”

    If you’re talking about Hassidic Jews etc, I think it’s simply that they don”t see the creation of the modern nation of Israel as being the work of God but the work of men through political manouverings etc. I understand that position completely btw.

    “The Sabbatean Talmudic, Kabbalist belief is the Israel is the Messiah nation, the Light of the World and that only Jewish people are real men. This seems to have largely escaped the attention of those who call themselves Christian. ”

    I think most informed Christians understand that. Most people realize that to Jews, Christianity is just a false religion. Otherwise….they”d convert.

    “Just as the Muslim martyrs expect a gaggle of God’s girls to satisfy them in Paradise, the Talmudists believe that in their Brave New World they will have over 2000 personal slaves EACH!

    And I don’t think they are right. I think if Talmudists started bombing buildings and subways and writing in their journals that they are looking forward to their 2000 slaves that people like me would be worried about Talmudists.

    If there were radical Presbyterians who did the same kind of stuff as the radical Islamic terrorists – many times, in many places of the world over a period of time, I would be saying the same kinds of things.

    There are territorial disputes all over the world. Many of them go back decades or centuries. China is upset with Japan over an island near Taiwan and both countries claim it’s theirs. Hopefully that will be solved peacefully. But if China started firing rockets into Japanese towns…I could understand Japan getting fed up with it.

    I’ve said this before, but if anyone here can REALLY come up with a solution where Palestinians are given all the land they want, and they accept that land without still wanting to get rid of Jews in Israel….I’ll be more than happy to nominate you for a Nobel Peace Prize. I’ll even throw in Q’s Rightwing Ratbag Peace Prize to go with it.

  274. You might be surprised how many Christians have no inkling as to the degree of contempt that many Jews hold for them. I am convinced the only reason why I have been accepted by some like a relative is that they see me as a lost sheep of Israel, which I may be for all I know genealogically speaking, on my mother’s side due to some Northumbrian Jewish blood, plus having a wife name of Rachel who is Jewish on her mother’s side seems to go down well in some quarters.

    All that aside, the real devil in the detail is that same Devil that hated Jesus and the porphets and the saints of God. We tend to put man in the centre of things by centering up on his part, but really we are all clay in the Potters hands, so it is a little academic really.

    I still maintain that it is all about the end game, not the ongoing saga, which I see as coming to its climactic, chaotic cataclysmic and cunningly crafted conclusion. But it will backfire and set off a wave of God consciousness such as has never been seen, and which will harvest the nations. But then, I have had visions of this for 30yrs, so of course I would harp on a string about it. We will soon see anyway. The next 3 years will be fascinating and incredibly challenging, methinks, and by late 2015, I feel all will become quite plain. But I think we are in for a rocky old time in between.

    As to the machinations of the peace accord which will signal the beginning of the seven year period of the reign of the Beast, the plan is pretty well established and will progress to its foredrawn conclusion. While “they” are building a Temple in Jeruslaem, God will be building His Tabernacle of David outside the gates.

    Why do you think virtually every country in the world is increasingly becoming like Police States with cloned Ninja Turtles everywhere armed with sub-machine guns which use 10mmHP rounds outlawed by the Geneva convention – which also outlaws DUI, but hey, don’t let us stop ya from having your highly profitable Genocidal wars!

    Within the next three years, the USD and Euro will collpase and be replaced by One World Currency. At about the same time the UN will become the Socialist One World Government – Russia and America, the Gog-Magog union spoken of by the prophets. And of course there will be a One World Religion – I am sure the Lucis Trust is working on a One World Bible already!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucis_Trust

    Selah.

  275. The Objectives of World Goodwill

    To stimulate and encourage men and women of goodwill everywhere to establish right human relations between races, religions, nations and classes through intelligent understanding and adequate communication.
    To assist men and women of goodwill in their studies of world problems, and in the effective application to these problems of goodwill, cooperation and sharing for the common good.
    To cooperate with other organisations in constructive activities contributing to world unity, stability and right human relations.
    To make available up-to-date information on constructive current action in the main areas of human life through publication of a quarterly newsletter and goodwill commentaries on issues of world interest.
    To aid in establishing goodwill as the keynote of the new civilisation.
    To create a worldwide mailing list of men and women of goodwill.
    To support the work of the United Nations and its Specialised Agencies as the best hope for a united and peaceful world.

    Now you Agenda 21 fans and men of goodwill everywhere – the above precis comes from Lucis Trust, the name of which was originally Lucifer Publishing, a UN accredited NGO. And all the useful idiots who did their Elfa courses would probably think that these words were GOOD words and to be desired. Yeah, and the abuser will respect you in the morning…

    This is why the Beast will fool the “kings” into giving up their authority” – because they are fluoridated fools, indoctrinated idiots, double-minded dickheads. They think that Good and God are synonymous, but Good without God is just the other face of evil. They are so easily fooled it is painful to behold.

    Dickering over details is simply involving the devil, for the devil is in the detail, in the myriad minutiae of miniature minds.

    The above “good intentions” are as good an example of how subtle Satan can be. BY the way, Lucis Trust (who would trust Lucifer?) was started by a couple of Russian Theosophists – aka, loony tunes.

    Like I keep telling you, the devil wants his world back, and you had better hope that you are OF THE WAY, rather than merely in the way. Chop, chop! Just a heads up, y’all…

    I used to say that God was the original Jew (I picked up that piece of cast off christian crap from Kenneth Copland). Nay, it is Lucifer/Leviathan who is the original Jew.

    1. After these [things] Jesus went around Galilee. For it was not his pleasure to go around Judea, since the Jews wanted to have him killed.

    A lot has changed, yes? NO! But a certain blindness of heart afflicts a portion of Israel UNTIL ALL THE NATIONS COME IN, IN THEIR ENTIRETY, and THEN ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. Or so Paul said by the Holy Spirit in Roms 11.

  276. The myth of Lucifer is up there with Hercules. No such being ever existed and is only ever mentioned in the KJV. The Early Church Fathers got that one wrong.

    WHO IS LUCIFER…OR SATAN MISIDENTIFIED

    http://newprotestants.com/LUCIFER.htm

    I’m surprised you didn’t pick that up in your Aramaic Translation.

  277. So why does Obama want to keep this strategic alliance so much even if his stance is so obviously wrong and hypocritical in your line of thinking?

    Countries do not work out their foreign policies on moral, ethical or logical principles. They decide them on self-interest and then concoct an ethical, moral or logical premise for their actions.

    In this sense they are much like individuals, however individuals are subject to judicial or administrative review of their decisions. Countries are not.

    For example the invasion of Iraq was termed “Operation Iraqi freedom”. Do you really think it was about Iraqi freedom? The joke was that it couldnt be called “Operation Iraqi Liberation” because that would spell OIL.

  278. So, who was it I met then? Call him Satan, call him Lucifer, call him what you will. I felt his seduction, I felt his hatred – he was the god of this world – he lost it – now he wants it back – and the only way to do it is by getting everyone in agreement, or killing off all who disagree.

    I will study out the matter from an etymological standpoint but as far as experientially, I have met him and many of his minions and whatever you call him, Devil Satan, Lucifer or whatever, he appears as a messenger of light and his servants appear as ministers of righteousness. Tell me, when Jesus said “Get thee behind me adversary” was he talking to Peter or to Satan?

    Satan means simply the adversary, and Devil means the accuser. But when you have met him, you don’t easily forget him – he is a cold, hateful bastard, when he is not being a slimy surreptitious serpent of subtlety.

    Even more than liberating the Iraqi oil, it was about regional hegemony and some very cold, old vengeance. The Jews are after some payback, with thousands of years of compound interest factored in to the equation. Besides, they want their world – or is that Satan – I forget sometimes….

  279. @Bones. I think Lucifer/Satan/the Devil/demons/unclean spirits could do with his/their own thread.

    Regardless of the name Lucifer, there are probably some who don’t believe in a literal devil or demons. I kind of assume that you are one of them Bones.

    I studied with people who not only thought there was no literal Devil/demons/hell and OT miracles, but there was also no heaven or angels either.

    @ian “So who was it that I met then?”

    Maybe it was Bones – he gets around you know..

  280. I say it deserves it’s own thread because it’s a pretty complicated subject. Jesus indeed said Get thee behind me Satan, and we were told to resist the Devil and he will flee – that he goes about as a roaring lion.

    But does this mean that there is a real Devil who can only be in one place at the one time – so has he been to Christchurch? Does he do the rounds of the earth? Does he visit certain people every Friday, and some others he never bothers with because they”re either too holy or on the other hand already his so he doesn’t bother?

    I grew up around charismatics who cast demons out all the time. Then later they started talking about choosing discipline or deliverance. So can demons be cast out, or leave out of boredom through the persons disciplined life?

    Questions, questions, questions.

  281. I think Lucifer/Satan/the Devil/demons/unclean spirits could do with his/their own thread.

    Yes, I think that would be fascinating. There is certainly a cult of Lucifer in Fundamentalist Christianity from verses taken totally out of context such as the whole half of heaven rebelled and Lucifer was the chief musician.

    Is there a satan? Don’t know. And the Bible isn’t clear about it either.

  282. But I thought Obama was there to change all that…

    Not really. Clinton was the same.

    But they’re not totally in bed with Netanyahu like Romney would have been.

    And Obama’s agreement to the treatment of Bradley Manning is disgusting. Especially as the chopper pilot shot up innocent civilians and kids and didn’t even get charged.

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/whistleblowers-treatment-exposes-dark-side-of-obama-20121202-2aowh.html

    But once again Republicans would have been no better.

  283. Tell me, when Jesus said “Get thee behind me adversary” was he talking to Peter or to Satan?

    Interesting question that which you sort of answered.

    Once again we’re beholden and influenced by the translator’s doctrine or interpretation and the truth is left as a footnote. Jesus is clearly referring to Peter as the sataan. Not a personal devil. That has never made sense.

  284. My apologies for hijacking this thread.

    I’ve heard Christians say that if you don’t believe in Satan, he’s already won, that those who don’t believe in Satan aren’t true believers etc.

    In my reading and study of scriptures I’ve become less and less dogmatic about this sinister character to the point that I question it’s very existence.

    Starting with the serpent in Genesis. Prior to at least the New Testament the serpent was not seen as representative of Satan. And it doesn’t make sense that snakes were cursed because Satan managed to conceal himself as one. The snake was used as it was a universal symbol of slyness and danger.

    Moving on to Job where the satan (funny how the article gets left out) is in some sort of deal with God. Like God is making deals with satan. Satan wasn’t seen as a cosmic evil presence as seen later on. Satan was representative of the accusers of the righteous.

    As for the rest well this article sums up satan and the New Testament and how the term was conflated.

    Who is Satan? New Testament Development

    In the first three parts of this series, we set the stage for discussing Satan in the New Testament. In this part, we’re going to look at the New Testament passages discussing Satan.

    Gospel Satan

    Satan makes an appearance in the story of the temptation of Jesus. We need to be careful before taking this story as history. A feature of the story which stands out is Satan taking Jesus “into a high mountain” where he “showed him all the kingdoms of the Earth.” What stands out about this is the impossibility of it: there is no mountain tall enough to see the whole of the ancient Mediterranean (much less the whole spherical world). Since the story contains an incredible element like this, a modern reader is forced to attribute it to either a non-historical event or (at the least) an account which has been amended with incredible elements.

    Judas Satan

    In Luke 22:3, it says “Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.” The wording is not the same but this strikes me as very similar to another famous Old Testament villain, Pharaoh, as stated in Exodus 9:12 (“But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.”). In the New Testament it’s often Satan who motivates but in the Old Testament this role is given over to the LORD.

    Conflated Satan

    As with the Old Testament, the problem with understanding Satan’s appearances in the New Testament is that we have to spend a great deal of time untangling later reinterpretations of Satan. The perfect example of this is the popular contemporary pseudonym of Satan – “Lucifer.”

    First, a passage such as 2 Corinthians 11:14 describes Satan as an angel of light. Second, Luke 10:18-19 says Satan fell from the sky like lightning. Isaiah 14:12-17 recounts a being who is cast out of the heavens because of pride. Contextually, this being is the ruling power of the day: Babylon. Since Isaiah speaks of light, 2 Corinthians speaks of light, and Luke speaks of lightning, it appears to have been concluded that the verses in Isaiah must be related to Satan.

    The original Hebrew word (helel), the first element in the name of the being in Isaiah 14, is believed to mean “to shine brightly.” This reference has always been associated with the bright planet Venus. You should note that some modern translations use “Day Star” (NSRV), another name for Venus. The word “lucifer” finds its origin from a Latin word (lucem ferre) for Venus. It wound up being used in the King James version of the Bible instead of translated to a more accurate word. How we get from Venus to Satan is a wonderful example of conflation of passages from unrelated texts.

    Roman Satan

    Romans 16:20 is a passage which I have been asked not to forget in this sacred journey. All I can really say is that while it has elements of the curse of Genesis 3, it does not make a solid connection of Satan to serpent. Furthermore, even if we give it the level of a connection, the original audience of Genesis still didn’t look at the serpent that way. What we’d be seeing is a future generation’s view of serpent-Satan relationship.

    Apocalyptic Satan

    Lastly, there is the Dragon of the Apocalypse (Revelation 12:9; 20:2). This is the only book in the Bible in which we see a direct coupling of Satan to the serpent in Genesis 3 (more on that below). Before we take that as a “slam dunk”, we need to consider the genre of the Book of Revelation and the purpose of it. Much in the same way that “Lucifer” embodied the power of Babylon in Isaiah, the figure of the Dragon embodies the powers of the Roman state — a force of evil as perceived by the Christian communities that the book of Revelation was written to. Really, the only defense of keeping this connection would be a view of Scripture which allows for later writers to clarify or enhance the meanings of earlier texts and other writers of the Bible — beyond the context of their original audiences. Ultimately, the connection of the Serpent-cum-Satan and the Dragon tells us only that the writer of Revelation connected the two for his own literary purposes — it says nothing about how the audience of Genesis 3 thought about the serpent.

    Going back deep into ancient history for a moment, the idea of serpent (“dragon”) as the force of evil (or chaos) battling with the forces of good (or order) are often found together in Ancient Near Eastern creation stories. There is an excellent discussion of this here. I find it intriguing that this particular line of thinking could be wonderful additional explanations for the serpent in both the Garden story and the Dragon of Revelation.

    In conclusion, it is easy to see the connections Old Testament, Pre-Christian, and New Testament conceptions of Satan. The modern reader has very little option but to see a shifting picture of who and what Satan is. Some roles which God fulfilled in the Old Testament are fulfilled by Satan in the New Testament. Incredible stories are used to show the interaction of Satan with characters such as Jesus. Finally, Satan himself is depicted in highly symbolic contexts using figures with a long history of symbolic utilization.

    As we will see in the next part of this series, the role of demons and Satan play a large part in the explaining the nature of the world and humans.

    A note on demons. I’ve been asked what I think about demons (and spirits). At this point, I’ve come to see them as a “reality” but only in the essence of a phenomena. Ancient audiences lacked the explanations we have. That is not to say we’ve totally figured out the behaviors of humans nor the neurology. I simply find it unnecessary to attribute demons to anything but the misbehavior or short comings of humanity. We are evil enough on our own.

    http://undeception.com/who-is-satan-new-testament-development/

  285. You guys use the Bible for a reference but lack any real experience, so while you may feel that you have some command of the operators manual, you have not yet learned to fly and are still largely grounded by your own earthiness.

    The Bible is full of metaphorical images – such as the two trees and the Garden – but it also uses allegory and imagery to convey the story of the the fall.

    In 2001 I heard “I want you to start asking the HARD questions.”

    “OK, the devil, what’s with him, what is he all about?”

    I immediately saw a vision of an old Western Spur line, leding tyo a town which had no sign of life. IT looked like maybe Utah, but the scene was pixel perfect – and the overwhelming impression was that “At the end of the branch line” there was no life at all – no water – just abandoned barrenness. AT the end of the line was a mound of earth and a buffer stop. I heard, “This is what the devil is, he is there to show you YOU HAVE GONE TOO FAR, erred too far from grace!

    There is a saying that a man with an experience should not be at the mercy of a man who only has an argument. For Bones to dismiss the existence of demons at any level is to me little more than an atheist trying to proudly prove that Jesus was not who He was, or disputing that God even exist.

    I do have an unfair advantage in that I have seen much of these things in evidence, the Spirit world is no strange place to me and it is very real. Let me recount a little cautionary tale. About 11yrs ago while attending a house church, I noticed that the self-appointed but obviously anointed leader thereof was really struggling with something. My heart went out to him.

    The morning preceding the night of the next meeting, I was awoken very early and directed downstairs to pray at 4:30am. I was directed to use a chair for an altar. A lady from the group who had been staying with us used this chair for prayer time.

    I hit my knees and was immediately in the Spirit. I saw my friend standing in front of me, in a dark place. He was dressed in a very smart suit and looked proud, haughty, arrogant. Behind him stood a Prince spirit – tall – austere – arrogant – proud – with its right hand on his right shoulder – it was head and shoulders taller than my 6ft friend. It could see me and I it. About my friends legs and gathered there was a covey of demons, all about 3ft 6” of so, and chattering and clinging.

    I asked within what to do and heard, “Command a Golden Chord to wrap around them and two Strong Angels to cast them into outer darkness.” I did and literally saw a Golden Chord wrap around these demons and this devil and then two Angels were there and Vroom, they were gone. I heard, “Look again.” (You do not get to look into the Spirit world by your own will, otherwise you will fall foul of the fiends.)

    There was my friend, naked as the day he was born, covering his shame with his hands, his head bowed. I heard to pray the Holy Presence about him, to cover him with prayer – and i saw as it were a shroud of glory descend and cover him.

    That night my friend rushed out to meet me as I entered his house. he was buzzing with child-like excitement and telling me of the amazing time he had with the Lord and the breakthrough he has experienced. Within a while he began to regress and struggle again, so I told him of the prayer session. Trouble is, he did not believe in such things and thought demons were something that people conjured up in their imaginations and that satan was really just people and blah, blah, blah…guess what? His second estate was 7 times worse than his first.

    In some ways it is probably best that the likes of Bones do not have personal encounters with devils – the sight of grown men soiling themselves is never pleasant. I have the strength of mind and experience to deal with such things and I am much more impressed by Jesus than any manifestation of ha Shatan.

    From Vic Alexander: The Aramaic word from Isaiah is “Eilil.” Several years ago I translated it as Night Star; but, when I look at it again, the word means “to wail” as in weeping and wailing. However, it can also mean someone who “[lives in] the night” or “exists in the night.”

    Outer darkness? Weeping and wailing an gnashing of teeth?

    Anyway, you who have not seen through the veil of the flesh to the other side will doubtless spit the dummy, but don’t be dummies and rail at my claims – just pray that God’s will be done and ask Him to show you if what I say is so.

    By the way Bones, God told me that if he had not created a Devil, then Man would have become his own devil.

  286. I thought the Derren Brown experiment on Seances shown last week on SBS revealed how a lot of that spiritism stuff is just trickery of the mind.

    I’m sure your experience was real, Ian. To you.

  287. How can you have a conterfeit wihtout an original?

    12. Except this that I do, I also do so as to strike down the excuse of those who are [looking for] excuses, so as that which they pride themselves with, they find among us.
    13. For they become those false apostles and slaves of treachery, and they try to impersonate the apostles of Christ.
    14. And it is no wonder. For if Satan looks like the angel of fire (light),
    15. It is not so unutterable if his ministers also look like the servants of righteousness, whose judgment (end) will be according to their works. 2 Cor 11

    5. It is to remind you that I wish to bring it to your attention, then, you all know that God in one season saved the nation from Egypt, but in the second season He destroyed those who did not believe.
    6. And the angels who did not guard their head, except left their abode, He keeps under guard in the netherworld,* in the dark abyss until the great Day of Judgment.
    7. Thus also Sodom and Gomorrah, and the towns around them, where they, in like manner, fornicated and went after other flesh, are consecrated under the same universal fire, as they deserve the Judgment.
    8. Similarly also those who lust in their dreams for the defilement of the flesh, reject the Lordship and blaspheme the Glory.
    9. Michael, then, the head of the angels, who as he spoke to the devil, argued on behalf of the body of Moses, that the devil dare not hold down his body under condemnation of blasphemy, except Michael told him, “The Lord shall rebuke you!”*
    10. Those, then, that blaspheme against what they know not, who treat the natural phenomena like dumb creatures, are then destroyed by that [same fire.] Jude,

    18. And I, Paul, wished to come to you once or twice,* but Satan put me off. 1 Thess 2

    1. We beg you, brethren, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and His gathering us to Him,
    2. That you may not be shaken in your convictions, and not be disturbed in your minds, neither through manifestation, nor spirit, nor by a letter as though from us, that, behold, the Day of our Lord is never going to come.
    3. Let no human being mislead you with one of these schemes, because the desolation has to come first, when the man of sin is revealed by the son of perdition,
    4. He who will become the opposition and the pretender against everyone who is called by God and by the Power, whereas he will even sit in the temple of God as God and show himself like he were God.
    5. Do you not remember when I was with you, that I told you these things?
    6. And now you know who is the one who will be revealed in his season.
    7. The sermon of abomination henceforth shall be set upon, but only if the one is in control is taken out of the balance.
    8. And then the worker of abomination will be revealed who betrayed our Lord Jesus by the spirit of his mouth and who will be nullified upon his coming.
    9. For his coming is through the enslavement of Satan, in all power, signs and wonders of falsehood,
    10. And through all the desolating abomination performed by the enslaved, as a result of their not accepting the wholesome love by which they would live the everlasting life.
    11. Because of that God will send them the slavery of desolation, as they shall commit themselves to bondage,
    12. And they shall all be judged, those who do not believe in the earnest truth, except be satisfied by the abominable.

    I guess maybe Paul had a vivid imagination too, to go with your imaginary, man made devils and demons?

    I think Peter had something to say about all this too, concerning those who cannot understand what Paul is saying so they twist it to their own detriment. And yes, my experiences are very real. Paul even gave people up to Satan for the destruction of their flesh so that they may learn not to blaspheme. Do not confuse the nature of ha Shatan with the person thereof.

    Just as God is not a name, but rather a title, so too Shatan is in general any adversary – but the spirit of rebellion has a generator – a source as it were – a father – but it is not creative – it is destructive.

    I suppose the next thing you will postulate is that God is only a good idea, something men dreamed up to account for their own inherent good? You remind me of the people who try to tell me how to make jewellery – I just give them the look, but some still do not get it – I do this for real, not imagination. I am a prisoner of Christ, you Bones seem to be a prisoner of your own intellect. Ask, that your joy may be made full.

  288. If Bones and Ian can keep their conversation civil, this will make for great dialogue.

    @Bones. The question remains. Did Jesus cast out demons? Did he just “think” he was because he was a man of that time with wrong assumptions? Or did he know that demons weren’t real, and just went along with it all because he knew the people of the time did, and so just played along with their worldview? Or are the gospel accounts fiction – in which case, how do have certaintly that any of the conversations recorded were real?

    Big questions I know, but I’m sure you get my point.

    @Greg /the powers that be
    I think this is a worthy topic that needs it’s own thread. Also re Ian, I know some people may be irritated by his “stories”, but I think in just about any theological discussion it’s okay for someone to back up their argument with experience – every body does this to some extent. (And it’s up to the listeners to decide whether that experience is valid). It’s subjective, but so is just about everything.

    (If I was discussing UFO’s with non-religious people, I’m open to someone sharing their experiences – even if they said they were abducted and made to have sex with 3 alien women with 6 breasts apiece).

    And if Ian’s name were Benny Hinn and said the same thing – he’d probably have the phones ringing hot with offerings.

    So, I vote for a thread on this Lucifer guy, and also I vote to keep Ian’s comments as is.

    @Bones As a conservative, I’m dismayed at the hypocrisy of those who bashed Bush for Guantanamo and Manning type stuff who cheered when Obama condemned that kind of thing, but who now are strangely silent. If Bush were Pres right now, I think the media would be all over the Manning story, probably the use of drones, and Obama would be there condemning it.

    I applaud you for being consistent in this regard.

    You’re not the completely insane left-wing ratbag I thought you were….. 🙂

  289. Not even in the same breath please. But I have had some weird things happen – like the time I was so caught up in the Spirit and a man approached me to my left and I spun around and without even thinking through out my hand in like a Kung Fu punch to the chest – he spun as if on an axis and fell to the floor, landing surprisingly gently – he then lay there for quite some time while other things happened – people touched, healed, words of knowledge, other gifts operating, then when he got to his feet he recounted how when may hand hit hit it was like it propelled his spirit into another dimension with God and he had just had the most amazing time in communion with the Father. Now you can say that is just all poppycock, or like me, when it happened, was simply in awe of God and Hos Power, Jesus. I saw some amazing things happen in that time. I am used to amazing, to me it is normal – I don’t know why me, or others who are like me, but then why not? As for money, my God meets all my need according to His gracious provision – I would never dare ask money for what is a free gift. Paul wrote very disparagingly of those who make money with words and who make the faith of others shipwrecked.

    Hey, here is a funny thought – what if what I have seen and heard is real, and that it is you who have bought into a lie? How do you think Luther felt? Like his huge stunning revelation we take as pretty much a given – a bible basic – Christianity 101. Yet to him it was a world changing revelation. Hello? Sometimes the crazy guys are actually right, and its the masses who are mesmerized. I have this funny quirk – I cannot be hypnotized – and being born dyslexic and quite near sighted, I developed mental faculties to compensate. I see in patterns, I see links and I see in vivid three dimensional clarity. I have had clients amazed as I will draw what they are thinking – or go straight to the right design for them. It is a gift, but it is a burden too. I know this will sound weird, but God once showed me what nature looks like from the inside – where He is – as He is LIFE – and it was amazing. Because I am an artist, I see in artistic terms.

    This drives rationalists NUTS! The only reason why i talk about it now is that i really feel that it is time to lay down the gauntlet – to challenge people within the orthodoxy and traditional churches to look much deeper, that God has so much more you have not experienced, but also that it is way past time to make sure your lamps are filled and wicks trimmed. I said a while back to Jesus, “Lord, why do I feel like every day you could be back, every day could signal the end? He said, “Because that is how you must live in these days (of Noah).” Noah spent 40yrs getting ready for his flood – I got time off for good behaviour and have done nearly 30. The next flood will be the flood of darkness from the hearts of Man. Don’t be fooled, God is not mocked.

    Irony is that before I experienced these things, and until God gave me some deep insights into the whole so-called Toronto thing and how it all worked, and where it was wrong, I would never have credited what I now say I saw and experienced. I would have thought that I was some kind of nut – and would have said as much. So God made a fool of me for my own foolishness, but frankly my dears, I don’t give a damn.

    Paul said I do what I do not our of desire, but by compulsion.

    When I was in my first Pentecostal type Church, I was the new kid who was having a lot of the amazing things happen around and I grew in grace above my peers – which meant that I became the target of envy and the victim of my own pride. Looking back I was more Apollos than Paul but now identify much more with the latter.

    I earnestly believe that the Church will have a Reformation and very soon. True VIVAL LIFE breaks out when you least expect it and when people are most in need. Andrew Murray wrote an excellent book on Revival – and famously said that “true revival was a work God does for man, not Man for God.”

    There is a Great Awakening coming – I have seen it, and I make no apologies for declaring it. Perhaps the only reason why I hear God is that I am listening? But then to the rational mind, a man who hears God must be crazy, right? Well, Abraham heard God and believed, and if you are Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s seed and of the faith of faithful Abraham? See, you hang yourselves with your won tongues. Your whole belief system is based on people hearing voices and seeing angles and demons and Jesus Christ. Perhaps this is why you disavow such experiences, which claims make you feel uncomfortable about a faith you already feel uncomfortable about? Maybe?

    God is – end of story. All the rest is mere detail, and guess who is hiding in the detail, figuratively speaking?

  290. Fascinating stuff Ian. There are people who hear completely different things when they listen to music, or look at stuff.

    You just have to accept that people who don’t see things the way you do or haven’t felt things or experienced what you have will have trouble accepting or understanding you.

    The other danger with someone like you is that you have to accept that sometimes you will be wrong about something, and that people who aren’t as gifted as you will be the one to tell you.

    Bad analogy, but parents sometimes have to tell a genuine genius kid to go to bed sometimes.

    Keep sharing. I love your stuff.

    Everyone judges people from their own perspective.
    Usually if people are much poorer we think they are lazy or we are smarter or more dilligent, but if people are much richer we think they have a problem with money and have priorities wrong.

    And some are happy to say that they believe a certain way because they had their prayers answered or felt something, or received something from God that was inexplicable – but if someone has 3 or ten times the spiritual experiences it’s sometimes hard to accept and we want to label them as kooks.

    Paul had plenty of strange experiences.

    If you suddenly tell us that God gave you a vision of a young babe that you should leave your wife for, I’ll be the first to adamantly state that you’re off the rails.

  291. btw Ian, what’s your take on the Welsh revival with Evan Roberts.

    another btw, New Zealand is the only place I met British Israelists.
    And there are pockets of Branhamites too I believe. Combine that with that Maori guy who wants men to stand up for him etc, and I’m left thinking that it’s a breeding ground for off the wall stuff.

    triple btw. Only been to Christchurch once but it seemed like different to any other place in NZ and Australia.

    O

  292. Q – I have my wife to prick my bubble – she is pretty tough – pretty and tough. The BI’s have a point, up to a point. I have a friend who worships the ground Branham walked, but then he thinks the world of Creflo Dollar too even though me ‘n God managed to get him free from bondage to tithing 10yrs ago. His argument is that you focus on the Christ inside, not the crust outside, which is valid, up to a point.

    I think the simple way to put it is that there are real manifestations and then there is the manufactured manifestation, often deriving from the real thing initially. I observed this in their Praise and Woeship, what I came to call Praizac.

    We are to imitate those who imitate God – trouble is that it ends up with people mimicking those who mimic God, and mimicry is more of an irritation than an imitation, which is why I would just stand there as they did happy clappy and then reverential program of what they saw as worship, and ask Jesus what is this all about? Why do they seem to be having a special moment and yet I feel nothing of the Spirit of God in this mess?

    The last time I went to “church” I saw a vision of Jesus up the front – in front of Him was a young man, blonde, kind of handsome, very religious, archetypal Hill$ong$ sort of fellow, emerging church and all that…and I heard, “If you try to bow down and worship Me, you will just get in the way (as a stumbling block to Me) but if you (simply) FOLLOW ME, you will be in The Way.” At the FOLLOW ME I saw another simply following Jesus. Nowhere does it say to worship Jesus, but rather to follow Him and His example.

    Another earlier time, I saw the same fellowship packed to the walls with people in reverential awe and silence – as my eye panned the view of the vision, there at the front was Jesus, preaching, and the congregation, including the pastor.leader all sat and gazing in utter awe at the sight. I heard “When you all sit down and let me lead, this is how is shall be.” Crammed in that room was a whole company of Mary’s, sitting at the feet of Jesus.

    Martha has an important work, but Mary chose the better thing, and she along with John were the only two of the disciples not to abandon Jesus – she got to know Him and her knowledge of Him exceeded the appearances of the circumstances, and it was she who first saw the Lord at his resurrection from the house of the dead. In both instances, He was revealed or announced to the world by a woman named Mary. In Aramaic the coming Lord is known as Maryah. Now I shall watch Bone’s videos.

  293. Carlton Pearson makes some valid points but by his own admission is in the process of re-evaluation, and by his own admission spent the greater part of his life serving what in effect owed more to fantasy than to reality. But to me the mere fact that he wears his collar backwards, hides his eyes, and dares to call himself Bishop says all I need to know about where he is coming from – he is a Nicolaitan who is readjusting his position in response to the burgeoning tide of contempt for tradition within Christendom.

    As for Chopra – he is a deceiver of the first water – I have an ex Pente Pastor “friend” who thinks he is just the bees knees. I think he is an intellectual deceiver who plays with words and preys on people with his esoteric philosophy.

    As to the Hooker for Jesus – I saw 4 hookers on that stage – still plying their trade – still turning tricks in their own way. If i saw that lady standing on a corner handing out tracts, I could be forgiven for thinking she was still turning tricks – part of becoming “New” is to forsake and put off the trappings of the old. Her focus was disturbingly focused on her past which makes her an easy target for the likes of Pearson and Chopra who undermine faith rather than build people up.

    If Pearson does not know what he is talking about, and by his own admission has spent much of his lifetime doing that very thing, perhaps he should shut the hell up until he does know what he is talking about? Like when the lie of the tithe began to get exposed, some of the Nicolaitans came up with “tithing in the Spirit”. Talk about re-arranging the deck chairs…

    I give Chopra a D for Devil, Carlton a C for being a big %$#*, the Hooker a B for trying, and the preacher an A for his Alpha course powerlessness. As for ABC, does that stand for Apostate Broadcasting Corpse?

    In the mid ’80’s, I was in prayer meeting. I heard “Open your eyes” and there in front of me were three figures. A youngish man from our church who had recently been involved in a re-creative miracle where he had prayed for a man born deaf whose hearing was healed. Behind him by about 1.5mtrs was a older woman in our church who was in advanced stages of cancer. Between them was a dark figure – all black – about 5ft tall an it appeared to be going from the older to the younger person – it seemed to become aware that i was watching it and it turned to look at me – it eyes were fiery red. I went to say something but I was mute, dumbstruck, and it simply steeped back into the woman. I went to tell others there who were more senior and they went 6o trying to cast this thing out. I told the younger man what the demon was trying to do – to get on him – and he proudly proclaimed that it was no match for him!

    A wee while later, I was walking home one night and heard that I should go to this woman’s house and pray for her release from the demon, as she was “ready”. I doubted and demurred and instead went home. That night she died. I repented and asked God to forgive me for being such a doubter, and He showed me how that she had come to the end of herself and that while there was a window of opportunity for her, that it had passed with her. But perhaps the real purpose of the intercession was to be evident about 15 months later when the young man died of the same aggressive cancer.

    I will pray for Carlton, that God opens his eyes and that he take his ridiculous Pimp suit off, and for that young lady to have a revelation of adornment – she seems to carry her past around like a Prada handbag.

    Part of my own VIVAL was when a young lady came to see me about 2000 or so. She was having a real struggle as her mother was dying with cancer and she, a Catholic, was having a crisis of faith. I began to tell her all about the sacrifice of Jesus and when it got a bit intense tears were forming in my eyes and I was telling her with a voice full of emotion of Jesus and at the same time feeling pricked in my heart as I was preaching what i was not living.

    At the end, she thanked me an said, “You know, I’d never have known you were a Christian if you had not told me”. I had known her for about 10yrs on and off. I was ashamed. I repented to God and said this has to change – I want people to see Jesus when they see me, not me. How can I call myself His servant when I do not bear any observable similarity to His image? The old joke rang in my ears, “If being a believer in Jesus was a crime, would there be enough evidence in you to convict?”

    In all four of these people I saw nothing of Jesus and a lot of themselves. The debate to me therefore is vain and void. Like 4 Pimps and Ho’s arguing on the street corner as to whose territory they were working. Funny how in these debates it all comes back to the illusory Free Will of Mill and Voltaire – the Great Lie of the enlightenment. You were sold under sin NOT BY YOUR FREE WILL and you were saved by imputation of righteousness and that NOT BY YOUR FREE WILL, but by the Will and Faith of Almighty God.

    If I hear one more Xian say God gives us Free Will I will rip out Roman’s 9, scrunch it into a wad and ram it down their mealy, heresy spouting mouth! We do not have a free will – we have a choice between blessing and cursing – if you do not know the difference then I suggest you find out. God gives us a FREED WILL to make RIGHTEOUS or BETTER CHOICES.

  294. “If …(put in any name you like)… does not know what he is talking about, and by his own admission has spent much of his lifetime doing that very thing, perhaps he should shut the hell up until he does know what he is talking about?”

    I love that. Classic! I’d buy the next round, just for that line!

  295. Have been ruminating more upon what Pearson says and it all smacks of yet more 666 maximized man stuff – self improvement stuff – the best a man can get – I think most of us would have experienced a close shave with that little deception of human goodness – there is no such thing – the heart of man is deceitfully wicked above all things, or more than anything else, it is deceitful.

    I can see Joel’s smiling face now beaming, “You can live your best life now people.”

    But Jesus promised us that His disciples world be persecuted and most hated of all men. Where is the persecution in the cosy West?

    There is so much of this Bishop’s socialization skills in evidence that it makes my skin crawl – I can hear Leviathan hissing through his silky tongue. He reminds me of the dude I saw preaching tithing in the Spirit – like a Church hit man – he was there to sell the message and install the virus in the hard drive – to leaven the lump. Come on guys, I am a bit more on to it than that.

    If you can receive it, the last levels on the Tower to the heavens is being constructed, but it is an incomplete work – the finished work of Christ only is complete – but showed me SOMEONE who truly walks in it? There was one, a little slip of a girl, no match for a grinning baboon in a D9 though – something of all of us died with Corrie but she was a seed sown which will reap a harvest.

    That little lady had bigger balls than any man I know, and that was no man who run her down, but even he too is an instrument in the hands of Almighty God. Maybe Hitler gets to carry Corrie’s crown – but that would be Corrie ten Boom. This is where the rubber meets the road, when the going gets tough. America has gotten soft and corrupt and has infected the world with its ways, the result is not only utterly foreseeable and predicable but inevitable. Any student of history will know the signs of oncoming war, depression, carnage, pandemic, the whole shooting “Pandora’s” box of evils. But thought this is predictable to some degree from a purely cyclical observation point, never before has there been such an ability to control and or kill massive amounts of people at the click of a mouse.

    The capacity to store and process data is in exponential increase, ergo the capacity to process and categorize people into desirable and undesirable. There is little point in trying to conceal your identity from Big Brother because the world wide web is a net set before all men. It is a snare – a Black Widow’s web of carnality and deceit, interspersed with some truth.

    Do you remember the internet porn stings? What were they looking for? People in high places who could be compromised, and some sacrificial lambs for their feast too. The CIA and DARPA conceived, seed funded, and gave a magic carpet ride to Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, The Google guys, Facebook, and much more besides. The whole web is an amazing Intelligence tool, a data gathering device for the military industrial complex. It was conceived by and designed by and actioned by high level Masons all the way. It is Masonic. It is a manifestation of good and evil. But that is OK with me, I will lose my head for Jesus gladly, but I will NEVER lose my HEAD which is JESUS!

    Have you looked into the Noahide Laws? You really should – they did not put them there for nothin’! There is a very disturbing picture on the net of George W with 12 Lubovitcher Rabbis under a portrait of that nice Jewish boy, George Washington. Oi vey!

  296. And now for something completely different. A Tornado struck Auckland yesterday – and as luck would have it, a USAR team just happened to be nearby conducting a training exercise. I see the real terrorists are at work again. Locals reported a lot of interference on cell phones – that would be HAARP.

    Funny too that it coincided with the final day of the CTV building collapse white wash in CHCH where USAR were under the spotlight for difficiencies in their operations. They were too busy smashing in doors where keys were already available and emptying safes, to save folk who had already been sacrificed.

    We have along tradition of human sacrifice in Naziland. That will make the mockers scoff – but until you begin to understand how and why sacrifice works and to recognise the arcane indicators it will look like just another war, or accident, or misaventure, and then there are the little children, especially girls, who are ritually sacrificed and the often strangely synchronistic and possibly unconscious behavior of parents and others – as with Lindy Chamberlain, or Madeline McCahan’s parents.

    Until you realise that a lot of what happens is being orchestrated from behind the veil it will not make sense. What has this to do with Israel? Israel is to be the final sacrifice, a final holocaust as the devil makes his move to wipe out God’s people, Spiritual and natural Israel, from the face of the earth.

    WHY? Simple, Light came into the world but men rejected that light in favour of darkness. This is not rocket science, it is cause and effect – but never forget that people are given up to Satan for the destruction of (inherent in) their flesh. You don’t have to look far to find the darkness in Man, nor to identify the abomination which stands as god (and you shall be as gods – does not your own law say that you are as gods?) – but it is the ‘father’ of all this who seems to have convinced many that it is the children and not he who is to blame.

    To blame children for being the victim of an abuser uncle is the worst form of pop pyschology and those who ought to be the real spiritual parents have yielded their own kingship to the Beast.

    Just like the Jews blame the Palestinians for their own troubles…the unrepentant abuser blames the victim.

    “Forgive them (all), for they know not what they do…”

    He came to His own, and His own knew Him not….

  297. Apparently if you criticise Israel’s growing settlements and taking of Palestinian land you are a supporter of the Holocaust.

    West is repeating appeasement: Lieberman

    JERUSALEM: Israel’s foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, has risked further damaging strained relations with the country’s western allies by likening their vows of support to the appeasement of Nazi Germany in the 1930s and the subsequent failure to stop the Holocaust.
    In the latest in a series of belligerent statements about European criticism of Israeli plans for Jewish settlements, Mr Lieberman told a conference in Herzliya that international guarantees of support for Israel resembled the approach of Britain and France towards Czechoslovakia before its dismemberment by Hitler in the run up to the Second World War.

    “All the expressions and promises of commitment to Israel’s security from all around the world remind me of similar commitments made to Czechoslovakia in 1938,” he told a seminar organised by the Jerusalem Post.
    “My sense is that all the promises and commitments to Israel’s security are mere words. When push comes to shove, many key leaders would be willing to sacrifice Israel without batting an eyelid in order to appease the radical Islamist militants and ensure quiet for themselves.”

    Mr Lieberman had earlier invoked the Holocaust in response to a statement by European Union foreign ministers condemning recently announced proposals for new West Bank settlements.
    He claimed some European ministers had been opposed to inserting a clause that also criticised the Palestinian militant group, Hamas, after its leader-in-exile, Khaled Meshal, vowed during a visit to Gaza last weekend never to accept Israel’s right to exist.
    “I am not satisfied with the position of Europe, which once again in history is ignoring calls to destroy the state of Israel,” Mr Lieberman told Israel Radio. “We have already been through this with Europe at the end of the 1930s and in the 1940s.
    “They already knew by the start of the 1940s exactly what was happening in the concentration camps, what was happening with the Jews and didn’t exactly act. Today they admit that even in the 1930s they prevented Jews coming to the land of Israel.”
    His comments were condemned by his predecessor as foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, who accused him of “trivialising the Holocaust”.
    “There is absolutely no similarity between the situations of Israeli citizens today to that of European Jews then. Not everybody is against us, and not everyone is anti-Semitic,” she said, calling for the resumption of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
    The British embassy in Tel Aviv declined to comment

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/west-is-repeating-appeasement-lieberman-20121213-2baw6.html#ixzz2Ev2uTAge

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