Mark Driscoll, Barack Obama and the Jealous Disciples

The Infamous Tweet


by Rev. Emily C. Heath

I pastor a church of strong political opinions, both Republican and Democrat. I have parishioners who support the Tea Party, and parishioners for whom the Democrats are far too conservative. But every Sunday morning, when we pass the peace of Christ in worship, they cross the aisles, shake hands, hug, and sincerely communicate their care for one another.

My parishioners teach me about more than what it means to be a good American. They teach me about what it means to be a real Christian. They never question the sincere faith of those who vote differently than they do. They just accept that we all have different ways of living out our faith in the public arena.

Which is why the national speculation about President Obama’s faith has always bothered me. President Obama is a Christian, by both his own attestation and the witness of many others who know him. He prays. He reads Scripture. And I sincerely believe he tries to act out of his faith beliefs. And yet, there are so many Christians who refuse to take him at his word.

Yesterday a prominent evangelical pastor, Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church, took to Twitter to share this: “Praying for our president, who today will place his hand on a Bible he does not believe to take an oath to a God he likely does not know.”

Now, I had a few initial thoughts about Mark Driscoll’s walk with God upon reading that tweet, but I won’t share them because, really, I have no idea what his faith journey is like at the end of the day. But that means that Mark Driscoll has no idea about President Obama’s either. And he has no place using his position of spiritual leadership to make such an arrogant, condescending, and disrespectful statement.

I’m not saying any of those things simply because Barack Obama is the president (though Driscoll couldn’t have picked a more high profile target) but because every person has the right to have their own relationship with God respected. The Christian right has a long history of trying to tell people whether or not they are “really” Christian, and this is just the latest example. And if they are really serious about their rhetoric of “religious freedom” then they need to lead the way and stop trying to define the faith of others.

If Barack Obama says he is a Christian, if he confesses his faith in Christ, that’s where the conversation ends. The same is true for George W. Bush, or Franklin D. Roosevelt, or even Mark Driscoll.

There is a difference between saying to someone “my understanding of Christian faith is different from yours on this issue” and saying “we don’t believe the same thing, so you must not be a Christian.” I often disagreed with George W. Bush’s actions, and struggled to reconcile them with my understanding of Christian faith, but I refused to speculate on the sincerity of his faith. That’s not my place. And I’ve had it done far too often in my life to turn around and do it to others.

And it happens far too often. We forget that some Christian right figures believe that Catholics are not “real Christians”. We forget that “real Christians” used their firm belief that they were right to rail against the faith of those who wanted to end slavery and later segregation. We forget that on an ongoing basis, gay Christians are told by these “loving” “real Christians” their faith is not real.

Some of the most faithful, loving, and sacrificing Christians I know would likely not meet Mark Driscoll’s definition of a “real Christian”. He might tell them, the way he told Obama, that they don’t really know God. That makes me frustrated for them, but it makes me sad for Mark Driscoll. How sad must it be to proclaim the love of God with one breath and to feel the need doubt the sincerity of another’s love for God with the next?

I’m reminded of the disciples who came to Jesus once and told him they had seen a man who they did not know trying to do ministry in Jesus’ name. “We told him to stop, because he was not following us,” they said to Jesus. “Following us” is the key phrase there. The man was a follower of Jesus, but not a follower of the disciples, and that’s what terrified them. Their jealousy must have been overwhelming by the time they reported back to Jesus.

Jesus set them straight, and they didn’t try it again. At least not that with that same man. But through the centuries, the disciples have made the same mistake over and over again. Mark Driscoll may be concerned that President Obama is not following his particular view of Christianity. But Christian faith has never had much to do with following the opinions of the popular crowd, and a best selling book has never granted the author the power to discern the legitimacy of another’s faith. In the end, the only two authorities on Barack Obama’s relationship with God are Barack Obama and God. I’m not either of the two. And so that’s where the discussion ends.

Follow Rev. Emily C. Heath on Twitter:

84 thoughts on “Mark Driscoll, Barack Obama and the Jealous Disciples

  1. That is all well and good – a bit like saying that all died and were resurrected in Jesus so therefore it is a completed work and it is all hunky dory! But this little missive overlooks one GLARINGLY obvious Biblical imperative – that we are known by our fruit, by our works of faith, not by our “I follow Jesus” political platitudes.

    The last word Whitecliffe uttered in a sermon was “A man sahll get to heaven by his works” – the next morning he was dead – God had to shut him and his hellish “Born again Jew” greasy grace doctrine up. Wesley really started something and the Yanks especially fell for it hook, line and thinker, such that now we have such mad mad Metho’s as Hillary….

    To truly follow Him is to do as He and in turn the Father does – and I don’t see Jesus signing off on who to rain Hellfire upon from on high. I do not see Jesus starting nor exacerbating unconscionable wars of aggression and plunder upon other nations so that bloated Americans can waddle across the aisles on Sinday and approve of each other while their demon powered President kills and imprisons with Imperial impunity. In fact, the more I think about this ridiculous assertion that because someone says they follow Jesus that it is improper to call them to account over their murderously malevolent malfeasance is simply too preposterous to even consider having any real weight. It is pop Xianity at its absolute worst – Obama certainly seems to have no compunction about judging others.

    Goebbels’ favorite scripture was Romans 13 – and 2000yrs after Paul wrote to the Romans theologians are still misunderstanding it to their detriment. The highest authority is the God given conscience, not the President, or Emperor, nor the King.

    Many shall come in MY NAME saying that I AM and they shall deceive many. The mere fact that this article is written by one who calls herself or is herself called “Reverend” connotes the Babylonian origins of this doctrine – and called out? No madam, I am calling you out! What a load of twaddle, worthy of the Ellen show or Oprah maybe, but methinks its savors of the things of man rather than of the things of God, and is therefore by its very nature satanic, even antichrist. Obama is a murderer, so is George Bush and his father, so is Clinton and his wife, so is every American who knowingly profits by the murderous regimes which represent you all, the leaders who are after your own hearts – liars, cheats, thieves, murderers…it is small wonder that the US Nazi regimes have worked so assiduously to infiltrate churches and seminaries with their diabolical clap-trap.

    Agreement is not the founding principle of the Body of Christ but of Babylon – the fact that you all can agree to disagree and still love one another is a load of old sentimental nonsense and means nothing – it is a cultural convenience, even a contrivance. It is self righteousness at its most evolved.

    Besides, what about the guys who give Obama his orders? Do you really think that the Pres is the most powerful man in the land? If you do then I laugh at your naivety – for the real power starts ABOVE the office of President – Obama is just a muppet, as they all have been, especially since that Welsh Wizard Morgan did his magic and stole America for Rothschild…you are all bankrupt – morally and financially.

    When I see American Christians en masse crying hot tears on the steps of the Capitol building and in public places, crying over the millions who are murdered both inside and outside America to enable your lifestyle…then I might give some credence to your currently Christ-less Christianity. I know there are some who have kept their witness, but not many, but I have also seen the VIVAL which is coming your way and those who weep for their nation shall be renewed and restored.

    America, the giving-est nation of earth – pledged multiplied millions to fix Haiti when they caused the earthquakes to begin with and most of the money is in the hands of George W and Bill C, while Haitian wealth is plundered and while American Xians still believe that they are doing good and besides, Haitians are into Voodoo – well Americans are into something much worse – it is called DO-DO and they chow it down by the truckload! I better stop now, or it will be the rope scourge next…so angry, so, so very angry, stupid dumb ass Americans, so stupid, so, so utterly stupid…and now they are over here causing their earthquakes and stealing our land and resources so they can continue to get bloated on burgers and drive gas guzzlers…so angry, so very, very angry…God deal with these idiots…please…soon…

  2. Bones – it is you who are talking pooh – Obama is doing what he is told. He is a puppet – like Bush – like them all.

    George Washington is quoted as having said “The United States is in NO SENSE founded upon the Christian doctrine.”

    George Bush and Bill Clinton gave North Korea two light water reactors paid for by US taxpayers. Nice. They are all in it together Bones – you should know that by now – democracy is for dummies – it was invented by the Greeks and about 10% of the population were franchised – about the same percentage of people who govern and determine outcomes now.

    I am surprised that you are fooled by him, but then fully 51% of less than 50% of eligible Americans were fooled too – that’s nearly 66 million suckers. P T Barnum would be proud of this Circus, featuring performing donkeys and elephants.

    Hitler snookered the Krauts with about one third support.

    Here is an interesting fact – Raytheon are heavily involved in weather modification and HAARP. They bought out Hughes Aircraft to get their weather mod patents. They also do a mean missile certain presidents like to rain down on rag heads. Rothschild is now donkey deep in weather manipulation and “prediction”. Raytheon was founded in 1922 by uber Mason Vannevar Bush, father of the World Wide Web. Are you getting the picture Bones? World Wide Web? As in Black Widow Spider? It is all about the establishment of a world wide control matrix. By being here I am dancing in the Dragon’s jaws.

    Around the mid 90’s, a computer boffin I knew who did contract work for Govt Depts confided in me that within 20yrs the control grid would be in place such that the New World Order would be possible. He told me how that Govt Depts would evolve into hubs sharing data and resources – basically a Police State. The same pattern is being repeated throughout the White Five, aka the Good Guys. He is now so freaked about what he has been party to it is destroying his soul – I ran into his ex-cop, ex-wife, now Welfare Nazi who said she was glad to divorce him – funny – he always struck me as really nice guy who had a dominatrix for a wife…I must look him up and remind him about Jesus…

    So Bones, when they offer you an implant so you they can make sure that you beehive yourself, will you tell them to sod off?

    Will you take the CHIP or will it be the CHOP?

  3. “aka the Good Guys”

    I prefer Harvey Norman.

    “So Bones, when they offer you an implant”

    Yeah same was said about barcodes when I called ‘nonsense’ on that myth.

  4. Barcodes were not a myth but a step along the way – part of the evolution of control mechanisms – accounting system – like IBM developed the computing systems for the final solution for the Nazis.

  5. Doesnt matter if they want 666 tattooed on everyones butt. The beast has been identified and has been dead for nearly 2000 years.

  6. But Ian, barcodes – then the next thing – maybe the next next thing will just be a step.

    What Bones is getting at is that in the early 80s people weren’t saying the end was 30 years ago they were saying it was three.

    How about you? Think back to 1980. Or 1975 – what were you so sure of back then? Can you remember?

    I know many people who seriously laughed if you talked about living normally past 2000 – because that was evidence that you didn’t understand bible prophecy or know how to discern the times.

    And, they were all wrong.

    As was Aimee Semple Macpherson when she drove around in her car telling everyone that Jesus was coming soon.

  7. Actually for me it was nuclear war and remember in the 70s when the planets lined up and the combined gravity would destroy the world.

  8. Bones,
    The beast has been identified and has been dead for nearly 2000 years.

    Oh good! That means the millennium’s done and we must be in heaven already!

    Funny, I thought it would be better than this.

  9. John of Patmos is still dead and in the grave. He sleepeth!

    Which is kind of disappointing.

    I thought we would be resurrected at the end of time.

  10. The fact that Nero fits the description of the “beast” is well documented. According to Suetonius, he murdered his parents, wife, brother, aunt, and many others close to him and of high station in Rome. He was a torturer, a homosexual rapist, and a sodomite. He even married two young boys and paraded them around as his wives. One of the boys, whose name was Sporus, was castrated by Nero. He was truly bestial in his character, depravity, and actions. He devised a kind of game: covered with the skin of some wild animal, he was let loose from a cage and attacked the private parts of men and women, who were bound at stakes. He also initiated the war against the Jews which led to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD..

    Nero’s persecution, which was initiated in A.D.64, was the first ever Roman assault on Christianity. Roman historian Tacitus (A.D. 56-117) spoke of Nero’s “cruel nature” that “put to death so many innocent men.” He records the scene in Rome when the persecution of Christians broke out: “And their death was aggravated with mockeries, insomuch that, wrapped in the hides of wild beasts, they were torn to pieces by dogs, or fastened to crosses to be set on fire, that when the darkness fell they might be burned to illuminate the night.” Christians were crucified, beheaded, burnt alive, and used as torches to light the palace gardens. Historically, Nero is the one that persecuted Christians beyond all comparison. St. John’s banishment to Patmos (where he wrote the book of Revelation) was itself a result of the great persecution of Nero. The apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. The apostle Peter, who was crucified upside down, was another victim of Nero, .

    As Church father Eusebius notes: “Nero was the first of the emperors who showed himself an enemy of the divine religion.” Sulpicius Severus concurs: “He first attempted to abolish the name of Christian.” In his Annals, Roman historian Tacitus points to those who were persecuted as “those who . . . were vulgarly called Christians.” Roman historian Suetonius concurs, for in a list of the few “positive” contributions of Nero as emperor, he includes the fact that Nero persecuted Christians: “During his reign many abuses were severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made:. . . . Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.”

    Noted church historian J. L. von Mosheim wrote of Nero’s persecution: “Foremost in the rank of those emperors, on whom the church looks back with horror as her persecutors, stands Nero, a prince whose conduct towards the Christians admits of no palliation, but was to the last degree unprincipled and inhuman. The dreadful persecution which took place by order of this tyrant, commenced at Rome about the middle of November, in the year of our Lord 64. . . . This dreadful persecution ceased but with the death of Nero. The empire, it is well known, was not delivered from the tyranny of this monster until the year 68, when he put an end to his own life.” (L. von Mosheim, Historical Commentaries, I:138,139).

    His bestial cruelty is evidenced in the writings of the Roman historian Suetonius (A.D. 70-160), who speaks of Nero’s “cruelty of disposition” evidencing itself at an early age. He documents Nero’s evil and states: “neither discrimination or moderation [were employed] in putting to death whosoever he pleased on any pretext whatever.” Suetonius notes that Nero “compelled four hundred senators and six hundred Roman knights, some of whom were well to do and of unblemished reputation, to fight in the arena.”

    Roman naturalist Pliny the Elder (A.D. 23-79) described Nero as “the destroyer of the human race” and “the poison of the world.” Roman satirist Juvenal (A.D. 60-140) speaks of “Nero’s cruel and bloody tyranny.” Elsewhere, he calls Nero a “cruel tyrant.”

    Nero so affected the imagination that the pagan writer Apollinius of Tyana, a contemporary of Nero, specifically mentions that Nero was called a “beast”: “In my travels, which have been wider than ever man yet accomplished, I have seen many, many wild beasts of Arabia and India; but this beast, that is commonly called a Tyrant, I know not how many heads it has, nor if it be crooked of claw, and armed with horrible fangs. . . . And of wild beasts you cannot say that they were ever known to eat their own mother, but Nero has gorged himself on this diet.”

  11. If you think that the Jewish Holocaust was bad – Hilter would be out closest Western counterpart to Nero, Pol Pot would be the East’s. Nero’s name equalled 666 in hebrew – he was the beast Steve – just live with it – there is no secret understanding to be found in revelation

  12. There is extremely strong evidence for the Beast representing the depraved Roman emperor Nero. It also cannot be overlooked that all the earliest Catholic Christian writers on the Apocalypse from St. Irenaeus Bishop of Lyon in the 2nd century down to St. Victorinus Bishop of Pettau martyred in AD 302 and Commodian in the 4th century, and Adreaeus in the 5th and St. Beatus in the 8th centuries connect Nero and/or Rome with the number of the Beast.

  13. Greg, steves not very toerant of people who actually explain what scripture means.

    Much more interesting to have a beast omen style than boring old nero.

  14. Nero may have been an antichrist character, but if he were the beast of Revelation there are a great many things which have not taken place which are going largely unexplained here.

    paul said that the mystery of iniquity was already at work in his day, but he said that the antichrist would be revealed.

    This clearly hasn’t happened, so, no, i will not live with Nero being the antichrist.

    He is dead and buried, as is Hitler.

    Nero did not persecute Israel. He persecuted Christians.

    Israel still exists, and has been replenished as Isaiah predicted.

    It’s all still on folks.

  15. I haven’t made up my mind completely on this one – and I’m amazed at people who think Revelations, Daniel, Jesus words are all so simple …..
    but I’m pretty much with Bones and Greg on this one.

    As for your planet thing Bones – in the 70’s there was talk of the planetary alignment (jupiter effect), the 40 years since the creation of Israel was coming up, some evangelicals were talking about climate change (isn’t that ironic…), the EC was talking about a future currency and were getting close to 10 members – then later the Soviets were invading Afghanistan (which was seen as a small step to Israel), barcodes were coming in, Karen Carpenter was singing about “calling occupants of interplanetary craft – oddball reference I know, but if you ever read Staen Deyos stuff…..haha, I read it all back then!!!) etc etc…it all seemed so plausible that the rapture was just around the corner.

    As Greg said ….things just didn’t go the way a lot of people thought.

    But when I look back at history, I really can understand how it must have seemed like the end during WW1. Or then in WW2 with anti-christlike figures like Hitler and Mussolini.

    (For those end-time history trivia freaks….did you know a book was written about why Mussolini was the anti-christ?

    And if you were there at the time…it could have made sense.

    Anyway, the false projections of the past don’t make or break an eschatological view.

    So the end-times guys could still be right.

    I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

    But I don’t see many end-times preachers betting their houses and retirement funds on it.

    Like I said I remember in the 80’s when saying the rapture could be 20 years ago made you look like a super conservative.

    On a last serious note – and now I’ll swing back against Bones and greg (haha). If evangelicals stopped talking about endtimes 30 years ago and got their young people getting their Phds etc and climbing to the top of the media, education worlds…we wouldn’t have a world run by all these left-wing, liberal ratbags..

    …Sometimes on this site i feel like I’m a real nowhere man sitting in my nowhere land…. (hmm think I’ll go hit youtube – what a classic song

    And now for something completely different. I’m glad I was heavily influenced by country people who always put safety first. When it comes to floods guys – don’t risk it. Don’t think you’ll be okay and drive through water. Respect nature, or you’ll pay for it.

    Looks like you’ll be doing it tough up there in Bundy Bones.

    Be careful!

  16. Nero did not persecute IsraelL


    when Nero became the emperor he revoked the Jews’ status as citizens of the Empire. This change in their status left them unprotected should any non-Jewish citizens choose to harass them. In 66 CE the Jews of rebelled against Rome and in response Nero sent an army under the General Vespasian to restore order. By 68 CE resistance in the northern part of the province had been eradicated and the Romans turned their full attention to the subjugation of Jerusalem. That same year Nero died by his own hand, creating a power vacuum in Rome. In the resultant chaos, Vespasian was declared Emperor and returned to the Imperial City. It fell to his son, Titus, to lead the remaining army in the assault on Jerusalem.

    But, yes, you’re quite right…Nero didn’t persecute the Jews

  17. @Greg

    And the resurrection? And Jesus’ second coming? And the millennial kingdom? You cannot answer these can you?

    Did you know that there have been many “beasts” throughout history? Did you know that the “beast” is alive right now? Because Satan doesn’t know when Jesus will come to rapture His church and thus usher in the 3 1/2 years of peace and then the tribulation he has to be prepared at any moment for this to happen, so he has to have someone in place at all times to take this role when the events depicted in Revelation, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel an Isaiah occur.

    Oh, and notice I mentioned those Old Testament books? Because, as much as you wish it otherwise, it is not just Revelation that speaks of the last days. In fact, Revelation confirms what those Old Testament prophesies said of the last days. Sorry, Bones and Greg. You’re both so totally wrong

  18. None of what John wrote were future predictions. Will there be a resurrection? Sure that is the Christian hope. It wont happen like John said it would.

    Keep reading the signs though.

  19. @Bones

    “There’ll be no millenial rule.”

    Right. Because you’d know.

    Won’t you be surprised when you find you are wrong! I’d love to see your face when it happens!

  20. So Bones eliminates a fair portion of scripture to suit his unbelief!

    Wouldn’t you know it!

    In the last days, scoffers…

  21. @Bones

    “i didn’t eliminate it, its still in my bible. i explained it.”

    You did no such thing. You guessed and assumed. You did not explain. Meanwhile, you ignore Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel and Isaiah. They all prophecy of the same events. Revelation confirms those passages in these Old Testament books. Explain that.

  22. ” There’ll be no millenial rule. ”

    There was no millennium bug,BUT,

    2. A thousand-year period of holiness mentioned in Revelation 20, during which Jesus and his faithful followers are to rule on earth.

  23. ” In the last days, scoffers… ”

    Steve scoffs at what he thinks are scoffers. Yet his coffers, come from the C3 lockers. And his Mochas (Mockers) come from Pringle’s offers.

  24. You ever thought Roundhouse that John based his visions on the old testament because he like read it.

    And jewsh apocalyptic was common. Theres stacks of examples from the first century and before.

    He reapplied the old testament to suit his writings and his context.

    The beast in revelation is not the same beast in daniel

  25. Be careful what you say, Eyes. It’s one think to have a little banter, or a jest, but defamation is quite another.

  26. The Revelation is not Jewish apocalyptic. It is Christian. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is prophecy.

    It is confirmation of what went before, as most scripture is.

    The fact is that you are floundering because you cannot explain the fact that the resurrection is a key element of the Revelation, and it has not taken place yet, despite your claims that the Revelation has already been completed.

    Even if you were correct in your assertion that John borrowed rom former writings, it is still a fact that he spoke of the coming resurrection, and that resurrection has clearly not taken place yet, and is a future event.

    I can give you several others in the Revelation which are not yet fulfilled, which makes them future events, and part f the prophecy which has yet to be completed. They are undeniable and backed up completely, not only in Old Testament writings, but also in the New Testament by other writers.

    You miss one of the primary principles of the canon, that each part is necessarily complimentary and contextual with the whole.

    Your raging excuse that John could have basically made it all up out of Old Testament bits and pieces is ridiculous and desperate.

  27. Q, my revelation came in a prayer meeting 6am, mid winter in 1983. I hit my knees and was gone, whether in the body or not I do not know. In 1987, just before the crash, I was telling my family and friends that the sharemarket would go in a few weeks time and lots of people were going to get screwed. My 10yr old son asked me if this was the beginning of the end – I said “No” so he asked when and without thinking I said “September 2008”.

    In 2005 God told me that there would be 7yrs of waves of the Spirit and that the 4th wave would seem inconsequential, but then the 5th, 6th would build in intensity and the 7th would be the big wave that would bring change.

    My conviction is that this seven years of waves started in 2008 when God touched the Dow and would culminate in the utter collapse of the world economy in late 2015 – my sense is Sukkot 2015 – check out what the Rabbis say about this time – blood moon, darkened Sun, Sukkot – and don’t forget that it will be the Rugby World Cup too.

    I do not base my vision on anything except what I believe I have been shown, and not all things are graven in stone – some things do change with prayer and repentance – to wit Nineveh. But just because Justice has been delayed it does not mean that it has been denied – simply deferred.

    In 2010 when the CHCH EQ happened, I heard that this was as when the Romans came up against Jerusalem – which to me meant 2yrs, but my lack of knowledge of Jewish history meant that I had overlooked that the Roman campaign in Palestine was more like 5yrs long. 2010 plus 5 = 2015.

    My oldest son (34) has seen visions of huge EQ’s – mountain ranges being shaken by mega-thrust EQ’s or unbelievable power and of tent cities of `survivors’ (Sukkot) – his second son (10yrs old) had a dream of a market collapse in 2015 which meant food was almost impossible to get and impossibly expensive and people were committing suicide to escape the hunger and hardship. This is the boy who went to school on June 13th and told his teacher that there would be two EQ’s at lunchtime.

    He used words adults would normally use to describe the crash and conditions – he did not even know what the market was…he said he saw it in a newspaper headline and saw a calendar in which had July 2015 on it…

    As to Assyria being crushed – this will happen but not before they come against God’s people and plans – they will serve His purposes and then be routed, just as Esau shall be razed, and those who destroy the earth shall themselves be destroyed. God used Assyria and the Chaldeans to punish Israel for her whoredoms. She made lovers of them but they became her judgment and then they too were judged – God does not leave any loose ends and history keeps repeating itself over and over again.

    So, this is why I say what I do – I did not read it in a book or borrow from someone else’s revelation or information – I simply “Heard God” and faith came. My own impatience led me to think things were happening sooner rather than later, and not realizing that the seven years started after the 7% Dow crash of 777.7points on Rosh Hashanah 2008 rather than in 2005 when I heard the Word.

    Now this is not the seven year tribulation period, which I believe will actually start very soon and conclude around 2020 – when everything should become crystal clear – 20/20 even. This revelation had more to do with the waves that GOD WAS SENDING upon the earth to prepare for the Tribulation.

    Years ago I heard in my heart that there would be a time before the end of great prosperity, but it would be a false prosperity and end in utter disaster as the people woke up to the fact that they had given their kingship to the beast. I heard that the remnant would become ostracized and that the people would think that they were in clover…until…

    In the paper this morning is the new head of Anglican Circe – oilman turned priest who is about to be “enthroned”. Guys, Jesus hates the ways of the Nicolaitans and hierarchies but satan just loves that shit. You have to count it all shit in order to possess the kingdom. Trouble is though, it looks kind of like the real thing but it is all dung.

    Bones, the Anglican Circe and that abominable Elfa Course will lead the Catholics into the joys of a rainbow coalition of world ecumenicism where everyone tolerates everyone else and we all agree to disagree and the apostasy is complete.

    I was shocked by a pic of Nicky Gumball shaking the hand of the Polish Pope and using a superior grip to go with his cheesy “good guy” grin. Please tell me it is not so, that that Druish Freemasons and their Queen don’t rule the Anglican communion?

    3. For it is through faith that we learn how to win eternal lives by the Manifestation of God, and [how to discern] those things that are visible from what is Invisible.

  28. BY the way guys, you/we are all Catholics – it is just that some of us are protesting Catholics. Coming out from amongst is being in it but not of it. It is all the same family tree of humanity – the tree of the knowledge of good and evil – and the fruit thereof is death. To enter in to Life you have to be circumcised in heart by the Sword of the Spirit which guards the way to the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the garden which is you! The outer man is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the inner man is the Tree of Life or the Life of the Tree. It is a tree allegory.

    By the way, the Church which has adopted the Alpha Course more than any other is the Catholic Circe.

    I prefer the Aleph & Tav Course.

    Beware the leavening of the Pharisees…and geeks bearing gifts…

  29. The only one floundering is you steve. Thete’s no hidden mysteries in Revelation of things to come. Your only response is to go with your gut instinct or wishful thinking.

  30. As we can see from Ian’s writings apocalyptic writings are still in vogue. Except now every man and his dog claims to have visions of jc.

    Which is ironic because john patmos didnt.

  31. I’ll take it then, Greg and Bones, that you don’t believe in the resurrection either.

    Bones, I have not floundered at all. I am certain of my ground on this, and have Biblical evidence aplenty.

    I am waiting for you to explain why the Revelation of Jesus talks about the resurrection and you deny it.

    Has the resurrection occurred? If not, how can you say the Revelation does not predict future events yet to come?

    I have other things to put before you concerning future events, but we’ll begin with the resurrection because it is surely the most important for believers.

  32. Bons,
    Your only response is to go with your gut instinct or wishful thinking.

    That doesn’t even make sense.

    What has instinct to do with this, when I have clear and irrefutable evidence that the Revelation predicts the resurrection of both the quick and the dead.

    It is written. Therein is my confidence.

    Nothing to do with gut instinct or wishful thinking.

    The Word is established.

  33. Greg, your last three or four entries have been completely banal, probably because you can’t explain why the Revelation of Jesus predicts the future event of the resurrection either.

    Could this be because you do not believe there will be a resurrection of the living and the dead?

  34. For those who reject the resurrection:

    1 Corinthians 15
    12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
    14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
    15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up–if in fact the dead do not rise.
    16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
    17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
    18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
    19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
    20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
    21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
    23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
    24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
    26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
    27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
    28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

  35. I have clear and irrefutable proof that Revelation is clearly related to John Patmos’s first century context.

    I know thazs pretty boring with no future beast or lake of fire or ridiculous notions of millenial rule.

    I don’t deny the resurrection nor judgement but Revelation is not a book on which to base doctrine.

  36. Ian, that was fascinating stuff. Regardless of what I have said re end-times, massive earthquakes and even a complete financial crash are not crazy concepts. In fact, I’d say there’d have to be some revolutionary thing happen in order to stop a coming crisis. Just the fact of all the pension/health requirements of the older generation who keep living longer than ever before is scary. As you might know there are cities going bankrupt in the US. Japan of course is facing the same problem. And China’s one child policy is going to catch up with it in the coming years.

    At the risk of sounding like a crazy pentecostal, it’s interesting that you claim that both you and your son are prophetic. Remember the guy in Acts who had daughters who prophesied? So, the idea that prophetic gifting runs in families has a precedent.

    @all. Did you read that the “founder” of the internet thinks the anonymity of the internet is not necessarily a good thing. Interesting interview recently.

    Re Revelations. Am I the only one here who admits to not understanding it? At least I’m in good company. Didn’t Luther want too throw it in a river?

    Be nice guys.

  37. ” Be careful what you say, Eyes. ”

    Sure Steve, maybe i was a little bit over the top. At leased you can always count on me to pleasure myself.
    And i must thank you for sticking up for the ‘RESURRECTION’.
    RESURRECTION of dead things happens every day.If God raises to life dead seeds, then God will certainly raise you up in the last day.Because you are more valuable.

  38. @Bones

    “I’m certain of my ground on this. Absolutely.”

    How nice for you. Meanwhile, the truth still exists, in black and white, regardless of your “certainty”. Thankfully it is not dependant upon you, but upon the irrefutable and unchanging word of God. I know which one I choose, and it certainly ain’t the ignorant and self-righteous opinions of some bible denyin’ leftists, a couple of “I feel so good about myself coz I’m inclusive and stuff” posters (or should that be “poseurs”) on a “Christian” blog, blustering and bullying all who oppose their humanist, God-denying ideals.

    So, be as certain as you want.

  39. Thats ok roundhouse you can keep believing your Left Behind nonsense and that 2+2=5 even after being shown it isnt.

    Some people are so tedious, predictable and jealous.

    Dogs have fleas
    Cattle have ticks
    Birds have lice
    I have roundhouse

    So bite me.

    Is it my imagination but don’t fleas, ticks and lice suck?

  40. @Bones

    “Thats ok roundhouse you can keep believing your Left Behind nonsense and that 2+2=5 even after being shown it isnt.”

    You have proven nothing. You have copied and pasted a few article from proven bible deniers and humanist theologians. Yet, you cannot answer the one question that both Steve and I keep asking. What about the resurrection? You cannot just say “It won’t happen” and then not back it up with actual proof. That’s the ignorant way out, and so far, you have only proven your ignorance. Prove it. And again I say, prove it. And one more time, for good measure, prove it.

    Bet you can’t.

  41. Q – arguably the two most influential siontists of the 20thC are largely unknown outside of their peers. One of whom was the father of the Internet, Vannevar Bush who died in 1974. Along with his student, Claude Shannon (Information Theory) they have shaped modern society like no others. Only Bernays and Freud and maybe Einstein come close in influence – yet probably none of you have ever heard of the two. The Internet was and is a Masonic development, like the CIA, the Bomb, and actually, just about everything for that matter. It’s the stone cutters vs the carpenter’s kids – a conflict as old as civilization.

    As for the catching away, it happens at the LAST TRUMP. The falling away Paul wrote of is the Apostasy – the embracing of one’s own opinion instead of having the Mind of Christ.

    And just for good measure DRY BONES, in 1984 I asked Jesus to show me what the rapture would be like, and immediately i saw Him HUGE before me in the sky and vroom, I was off, and then I was back. I was so thrilled! It was like when a big brother picks a baby up and gives it a good old lift in to the air and then puts it back and says with a good-natured smile, “You liked that?” I liked that!

  42. ” and immediately i saw Him HUGE before me in the sky and vroom, I was off, and then I was back. ”

    you’re starting to sound like Jesse Duplantis.

  43. There’ll be no rapture either. Thats some nonsense made up in the last 150 years.

    You guys must have had a hard time at school given that you cant distinguish between fact and fiction.

    Poor Humpty and Mary with her little lamb.

  44. @Bones

    “There’ll be no rapture either. Thats some nonsense made up in the last 150 years.”

    Prove it

  45. Vannevar Bush headed a team of 12 Siontists especially selected to work with Truman (the Truman Show?). Bush was the father of the Internet, the prime mover in the Manhattan Project and pioneer of computing science, and his protege Shannon was the father of modern knowledge theory and the prime instigator of much of the computer science we now take for granted. These two men shaped out culture, along with a relative handful of innovators, many of them Masons. Raytheon means light from the gods, and was founded by Bush, This very computer I am using is their brainchild, and while it may seem to be an opportunity for freedom, like Amerika, it will soon become apparent what it really is – a gilded cage.

    I predict that child porn and other issues such as “tearorwrists” and internet crime will mean much stricter internet controls. O’Bummer has got his mandate now and he will lay waste your nation, America, he will lead you to the left and into darkness.

    We are in THEIR playground guys and THEY are writing the rules and laying down The Law – we still live in enemy territory, or have you forgotten? The devil may have been defeated at Calvary and Jesus is just waiting until His enemies be consecrated as the rug under His feet, BUT the SECULAR GOVERNMENTS of THIS WORLD ORDER have not been brought into subjection to the ONE and are still serving Mammon and Rome and Babylon and Egypt and Jerusalem and Sodom and Samaria.

    America has its very own domestic Gulag of slave labor prisons, just as is being developed here – it really is quite sinister. Some of our MP’s look like they have demons looking out of their lies, I mean eyes, and let’s not get started on Julia G! But I think maybe Hillary is finding out what righteous indignation can inflict if it so requires to. She will repent, or she will die – no odds – no real loss – “The death of one is a tragedy, the death of a million a statistic.” Another “Hillary” will pop up to take her place – enter Condo-leaser ‘white-on’ Rice!

    I would love to think that all this stuff is NOT going to happen but I cannot shake what I have seen, so if I am wrong or deluded then God forgive me, but if the stuff I have been told will happen just keeps on happening at the rate it does, then I am reluctant to think of myself as mad, and prefer to be though of as rather eccentric and not backward in coming forward. Is there anyone out there who can give me a witness? Who has seen some of this stuff? It’s a lonely place, out here on point…good thing I have Jesus as my “Eyes”, eh Eyes?

  46. There was absolutely no teaching on the rapture before john nelson darby in the 1830s.

    Purely an invention of darbys to go with his whacky dispensationalist theology.

    Of course most of the cults lapped it up.

  47. @Bones

    “I just did.”

    Rubbish. You make a sweeping, general statement, with no proof whatsoever. So, prove it.

  48. @Bones

    “There was absolutely no teaching on the rapture before john nelson darby in the 1830s”

    More rubbish. You’ll believe anything, as long as its not the truth.

    Check this out:

    “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins” (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

  49. More from the fourth Century teacher:

    “A Noted Byzantine Scholar That Taught The Pre-Tribulation Rapture in A.D. 373” Quote by: Grant Jeffrey’

    Over the last thirty years I have been fascinated with Bible prophecy because it authenticates the Scriptures as God’s inspired Word and it points to the imminent return of Jesus Christ to usher in the Messianic Kingdom. I am always delighted when God leads me to new information that confirms His Word. In my ongoing research into recent archeological discoveries and into writings of early Church leaders, I have made several exciting new discoveries that I want to share with my readers. In this chapter we will explore a number of interesting discoveries about the following subjects: the finding of a teaching about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture from the first centuries of the early church; the archeological discoveries of the tombs of Mary, Martha and Lazarus that prove the historical accuracy of the Gospels; and the proof that miraculous healings, raising of the dead, and the Charismatic gifts were common among believers during the first three centuries following the resurrection of Christ.

    The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Was Taught by the Early Church

    Obviously, the truth about the timing of the Rapture will ultimately be found only in Scripture. The Protestant Reformation was based essentially on this return to the authority of the Bible. The Latin phrase Sola Scriptura, meaning “Scripture Alone” became the rallying cry of the reformers who ignored centuries of tradition and church councils in their insistence that truth could only be discovered in the Word of God. While the ultimate resolution of this discussion must be based on our interpretation of Scripture, it is important to answer the errors of our opponents who disparage “the blessed hope” of the Rapture with misinformation about the modern rediscovery of the truth about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

    Many post-tribulationist writers have attacked the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine by claiming that it cannot be true because no church writer or reformer ever taught this doctrine until approximately 170 years ago. While the real question for sincere students of Scripture must be whether or not the Bible truly teaches this doctrine, the argument that no one ever saw this “truth” throughout eighteen hundred years of Church history has been very effective, causing many Christians to abandon their belief in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The only problem with their argument is that they are totally wrong.

    Many contemporary writers claim that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory first originated around A.D. 1820. They ascribe the theory’s initial creation to either Emmanuel Lacunza (Ben Ezra, 1812), Edward Irving (1830), or Margaret Macdonald (1830), and finally to John Darby (1830). For example, Dave MacPherson in The Incredible Cover-Up (1975 stated); “Margaret Macdonald was the first person to teach a coming of Christ that would precede the days of Antichrist . . . . Before 1830, Christians had always believed in a single future coming, that the catching of I Thess. 4 will take place after the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 at the glorious coming of the Son of Man when He shall send His angels to gather together all of His Elect.” Reverend John Bray, in The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching (1982) declared; “People who are teaching the Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching today are teaching something that never was taught until 1812 . . . . Not one of those early church fathers taught a Pre-Tribulation Rapture . . . . I make the offer of five hundred dollars to anybody who will find a statement, a sermon, article in a commentary, or anything, prior to 1812 that taught a two-phase coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time, such as the Pre-Tribulation rapturists teach.” These writers, among others who despise the teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, dogmatically assert that it was taught for the first time in 1830 by John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren or one of the other individuals mentioned above.

    A number of these authors will have to drastically revise the next edition of their books based on two remarkable textual discoveries that conclusively prove that a number of Christian teachers, centuries before John Darby rediscovered this biblical teaching, clearly taught that the Rapture would occur before the Tribulation period. During the summer of 1994, after more than a decade of searching, I discovered several fascinating manuscripts that contain clear evidence of the teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in the early church.

    Ephraem’s Teaching on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

    “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins” (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

    The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (who lived from A.D. 306 to 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem displayed a profound love of the Scriptures in his writings as illustrated by several of his written comments quoted in the Works of Nathaniel Lardner, Vol. 4, 1788. “I esteem no man more happy than him, who diligently reads the Scriptures delivered to us by the Spirit of God, and thinks how he may order his conversation by the precepts of them.” To this day, his hymns and homilies are used in the liturgy of the Greek Orthodox and Middle Eastern Nestorian Church. While the sixteen-volume Post-Nicene Library includes a number of homilies and psalms by Ephraem the Syrian, the editors noted that he also wrote a large number of commentaries that have never been translated into English.

    Ephraem’s fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until now. This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a literal method of interpretation and a teaching of the Pre-Millennial return of Christ. More importantly, Ephraem’s text revealed a very clear statement about the Pre-Tribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. In addition, Ephraem declares his belief in a personal, Jewish Antichrist, who will rule the Roman Empire during the last days, a rebuilt temple, the two witnesses and a literal Great Tribulation lasting 1,260 days. It is also fascinating to note that he taught that the War of God and Magog would precede the Tribulation period. I discovered another text by Ephraem, called The Book of the Cave of Treasure, that revealed he taught that Daniel’s Seventieth Week will be fulfilled in the final seven years at the end of this age that will conclude with Christ’s return at the Battle of Armageddon to establish His kingdom.

    The following section includes key passages from Ephraem’s important text, written about A.D. 373, and translated by Professor Cameron Rhoades, of Tyndale Theological Seminary, at my request.

    On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World

    “1. Most dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. Now we have spoken before, because the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains. Has not the first faith withered away in men? …

    “2. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because it is the very last time . . . . Because all saints and Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins (Italics added). And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord . . .

    “3. When therefore the end of the world comes, there arise diverse wars, commotions on all sides, horrible earthquakes, perturbations of nations, tempests throughout the lands, plagues, famine, drought throughout the thoroughfares, great danger throughout the sea and dry land, constant persecutions, slaughters and massacres everywhere . . .

    “6. When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one is born from the tribe of Dan. He is conceived from the seed of a man and from a most vile virgin, mixed with an evil or worthless spirit . . .

    “7. But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire . . . . Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations . . . . then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which becomes three and a half years, 1260 days.

    “8. In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth . . . . and there will be a Great Tribulation, as there has not been, since people began to be upon the earth . . . . and no one is able to sell or to buy of the grain of the fall harvest, unless he is one who has the serpentine sign on the forehead or the hand . . . .

    “10. And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints . . . . Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever.”

    To summarize the key points in Ephraem’s text on the last days:

    1. Ephraem’s manuscript lays out the events of the last days in chronological sequence. Significantly he began with the Rapture using the word “imminent,” then, he described the Great Tribulation of three and a half years duration under the Antichrist’s tyranny, followed by the second coming of Christ to earth with his saints to defeat the Antichrist.

    2. Significantly, at the beginning of his treatise in Section 2, Ephraem used the word “imminent” to describe the Rapture occurring before the Tribulation the coming of the Antichrist. “We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging.”

    3. He clearly described the Pre-Tribulation Rapture: “Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.”

    4. He then gives the purpose of God rapturing the church “before the tribulation” so that “they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.” Ephraem used the word “confusion” as a synonym for the Tribulation Period.

    5. Ephraem described the duration of the “Great Tribulation” (the last half of the Seven Year Tribulation Period) in sections, 7, 8, and 10 as follows: “forty-two months” and “three and a half years” and “1260 days.”

    6. He summarized: “There will be a Great Tribulation, as there has not been since people began to be upon the earth” and described the Mark of the Beast system.

    7. He declared that Christ will come to the earth after the “three and a half years” Tribulation Period in Section 10: “And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets . . . will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty.

    Dr. Paul Alexander, perhaps the most authoritative scholar on the writing of the early Byzantine Church, concluded that Ephraem’s text on The Antichrist taught that the Lord would supernaturally remove the saints of the Church from the earth “prior to the tribulations that is to come.” Ephraem wrote that the saints will be “taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” Dr. Alexander believed this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century but he concluded that it was derived from an original Ephraem manuscript (A.D. 373). Other scholars, including the German editor Professor Caspari who wrote a German commentary on this Latin manuscript in 1890, believed that Ephraem’s manuscript was written by the genuine Ephraem in A.D. 373. Professor Cameron Rhodes, professor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, translated Ephraem’s Latin text into English at the request of my friend Dr. Thomas Ice and myself.

    Ephraem and Daniel’s Seventieth Week – The Tribulation Period

    A question naturally arises in the mind of Bible students about how long Ephraem believed the Tribulation would last. While Ephraem correctly describes the “Great Tribulation” as three and a half years his other writings revealed that he believed the whole Tribulation Period, “that sore affliction,” would last “one week” of seven years. Ephraem’s book, The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about A. D. 373, taught about the genealogy of Christ. He wrote the sixty-ninth week of Daniel 9:24-27 ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah. He stated, “The Jews have no longer among them a king, or a priest, or a prophet, or a Passover, even as Daniel prophesied concerning them, saying, ‘After two and sixty weeks Christ shall be slain, and the city of holiness shall be laid waste until the completion of things decreed.’ (Daniel 9:26). That is to say, for ever and ever.” (italics added, page 235, The Cave of Treasures). In Daniel’s prophecy, he foretold that Jerusalem would be rebuilt “even in troublesome times” during the initial period of “seven weeks” of years (forty-nine years). Daniel’s prophecy declared that this initial period of “seven weeks” of years would be immediately followed by a further period of sixty-two “weeks” of years ending with the cutting off of the Messiah (483 years). The combined total of sixty-nine weeks of years (seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks) was to conclude with the rejection of Christ. As quoted above, Ephraem taught that Jesus Christ was slain at the end of the combined sixty-nine weeks of years.

    However, in the section of his book dealing with the future of Gog and Magog, Ephraem wrote about the final (seventieth) week of Daniel as follows. “At the end of the world at the final consummation . . . suddenly the gates of the north shall be opened . . . . They will destroy the earth, and there will be none able to stand before them. After one week of that sore affliction (tribulation), they will all be destroyed in the plain of Joppa . . . . Then will the son of perdition appear, of the seed and of the tribe of Dan . . . . He will go into Jerusalem and will sit upon a throne in the Temple saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and he will be borne aloft by legions of devils like a king and a lawgiver, naming himself God . . . . The time of the error of the Anti-Christ will last two years and a half, but others say three years and six months” (italics added). Although there are some curious elements in his description of prophetic events, it is clear that Ephraem believed that the seventieth final week of Daniel’s prophecy of the seventy weeks will finally be fulfilled during the final seven years of this age when the Antichrist will appear. This evidence of a belief in a “gap” or “parenthesis” between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week of Daniel 9:24-27 from the fourth century of the Christian era is significant. It is worthwhile to note that this teaching that there would be a “gap” or “parenthesis” between Daniel’s 69th week and the 70th week of years was also taught by others in the early church including the Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 110) and the writings of Hippolytus (A.D. 220).

  50. How do you prove something thats in your own imagination.

    Look up Darby.

    I have no internet only a phone for the past week.

  51. @Bones

    “How do you prove something thats in your own imagination.”

    Which is why you can offer no proof of your hypothesis! You fell headlong into that one!

  52. There was nothing in that article that had anything to with a rapture. Thats not surprising because pseudo Ephraem teaches that christians escape tribulation by death.

    There is no mention of rapture.

  53. @Bones

    “There is no mention of rapture”

    Did you actually READ the article? What is this then?

    “Because all saints and Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins”

  54. Roundhouse, you are reading your own belief into that…gathering together does not equal “rapture”. Rapture is a flawed and false teaching devoid of any integrity at all.

  55. You can read the latin and syriac versions of pseudo ehpraem online. It describes how christians are killed during the tribulation. They wont be raptured.

    Its pseudo ephraem as it also desribes the islamic invasion centuries later.

    nice try though. A bit dishonest of that website u quoted but im not surprised.

  56. The rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 – Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo in the Greek, rapiemur in the Latin Vulgate, which is where we get the word rapture from) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    Have you noticed that this is NOT in Revelation? So, how’s that proof coming along?

  57. @Bones

    “describes how christians are killed during the tribulation”

    If you knew your bible (and every day you prove more and more that you are a complete amateur when it comes to understanding scripture) you would know that there will actually be people who come into belief after the rapture. Come on Bones, you’ve got to try harder. Your ignorance is showing.

  58. ” you would know that there will actually be people who come into belief after the rapture. ”

    I can’t be bothered (finding the link) , Roundhouse, but your teaching is similar to that of Dr Hilton Sutton.

  59. @Roundhouse. Do you think Mr Ephraem would be surprised that the Roman Empire fell, and that people are still quoting him thinking its the 11th hour 1600 years later?

    This last hour has been ticking away for an awful long time.

    Reading Ephraem vs2 made me wonder how rich his descendants would have been if he would have rather thought more about business and invested some money in an interest bearing account.

    By now his descendants could have bought the whole city of Rome!

  60. @Greg

    “gathering together does not equal “rapture”.”

    Wanna bet? See my above post. The word “harpazo” in 1 Thess 4:17 means “caught up”.

    “Rapture is a flawed and false teaching devoid of any integrity at all.”

    Prove it. You and Bones have offered NO qualifying evidence to support your rejection of the rapture and Revelation other than worldly humanist opinions. By contrast, I have been able to smash Bone’s ridiculous assertions, and he’s run away crying. So, I challenge you again, prove that the rapture isn’t going to happen, prove that the events depicted in Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Isaiah, Joel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 2 Peter, and Revelation don’t speak of future events. Come on, impress me.

  61. Just picked a few chillies today, man one was hot as. Wonder where it came from!?. Must have come from the resurrection of the dead seeds. And this occurs daily. Also, the grace of God is new every morning.

  62. 1thess 4:17 has to be read in context. 1 thess 4 is clearly about the coming of christ with our friends who have gone before.

    So your proof if thats what u call it is easily refuted.

    Thats why no one heard of a raptute fo 1800+ years.

    People who read their bibles properly and know the ways of God see through these red herrings.

  63. 1 Thesalonians 4
    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    Did you see that Bones?

    Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air!

    Says it all really.

    Caught up: harpazo, ‘to seize, carry off by force’, ‘to catch up’, ‘to snatch out or away’.

    Together: hama, ‘at the same time’, ‘at once’, together with’.

    The latin translation of this phrase is ‘rapture’, which is why it is used commonly. Since we know it is a latin translation, we kn ow that the Roman translators, at least, understood the concept, which dates back before Darby.

    We don’t need more that the text itself to determine that the catching up of the Church is a Christian doctrine of substance.

    Indeed, we know it at least dates back to Paul, who wrote this passage.

    The comfort is that the dead in Christ, those who sleep in Him, will rise. They will rise first. Then we who live will rise together with them.

    John 11
    25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
    26 “And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

    Some will die in Him, others who believe will never die. In other words, the dead in Christ will rise, and the living in Christ at His coming will rise together with them and never die.

    Do you believe this?

    1 Corinthians 15
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed–
    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

  64. So Rapture is, as a concept, attributed to Jerome in the 4th Century.

    Jerome wrote:

    deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

    He uses rapiemur [suddenly caught up], from the root rapio [to carry off or sieze up something or someone]. The English words ‘rapt’ and ‘rapture’ come from this Latin verb.

    It is a direct latin translation of harpazo which I have already given the meaning of, telling us hat Jerome already understood what Paul was telling us.

  65. Bones – not only did Darby preach nonsense, so did the lot of them on reflection – it is a wonder that God gets anything done at all given that we are such a bunch of drop-kicks in Kirks.

    We will see if I am right about anything. People used to think it was cool at church when I would give them a personal prophecy that was “beneficial” but as soon as you get salty and severe they back off and think you’re queer.

    So tell me Bones – do you believe miracles are for now? That we still have apostles in the world?

    And as for sounding like Jesse Duplantis, maybe he sounds like me? It is plain that we all have our gifts and calling and for now our own perspective and that we all see in part, and that it is only when maturity comes, when we are made perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect, that we know even as we are known.

    Remember that Paul was giving scatty women who are disloyal to the covenant a serve about denying the faith even more than an unbeliever and he called them dead while living. To be cut off from, or have your name expunged from the Ledger of Life is to be cut off from God and without hope in the world – why do you think so may Xians go gaga and clutter mental institutions and bars and churches and to them the heavens are as brass?

    Love covers for the multitude of sins. Years ago, if you can receive it, I was watching Jesse preach, and he was for once “in the zone”. As I sat there, I sensed the presence of the Lord, and I felt Him come and sit next to me. I had been asking Him for some time a question concerning the Cross and I felt to ask in my heart – to communicate without words, and the answer came before the question was even fully formed – and I knew that it was so and I knew that it was true and the answer which had seemed so important to me grew strangely dim and did not matter.

    As He sat at my left, i could not even bring myself to look, It was the invisible but tangible presence – I even felt his “weight” on the couch – and we just sat there and watched our brother preach.

    The Lord seemed to approve. Since then I have never seen him say anything I would want to listen to. And he preaches tithing and hell and such, yet Jesus loves him and so do I. He is just another prisoner of Christ.

    Now you will really think I am crazy, but do not stumble at my words or call me Racah – that would be foolish, you might be in danger of hell! LOL. As Frank Zappa said, the crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe – it is all about ownership – are ye gods, or are you God’s? If you are God’s you will love and if you are gods you will judge – its quite simple really – any child of God could understand it.

    13. You were called to His freedom, brethren, however, let not your freedom be for the sake of the flesh, except let your submission to each other be in love.
    14. For all the Law is fulfilled by one manifestation, that you love your kin as yourself.
    15. If, however, you grind one another down and chew each other out, see that you do not eliminate (sift) each other.
    16. I am telling you then, walk in the Spirit and never be a slave to the pleasures of the flesh.
    17. For the flesh enjoys what lowers the spirit, and the spirit enjoys what lowers the flesh, and both of them are a hindrance to each other, so that you can never do what you wish. (Read that again, and again, and again…)
    18. If then you were fetched by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
    19. For you know the manifestation of the flesh, fornication, evil doing, dissolution,
    20. The making of idols, witchcraft, hostility, destructiveness, backbiting, resentfulness, stubbornness, divisiveness, apathy,
    21. Killing, murder, drunkenness, [outrageous] singing and the like. And those who devote themselves to such things, as I told you from the start, I tell you now as well, they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.
    22. The fruit of the Spirit, however, are love, joy, peace, compassion, fulfillment, grace, faith,
    23. Gentleness, hope — the Law does not consecrate these.
    24. These (fruit) belong to Christ, they (the fruit) crucified the flesh together with all its wounds and lusts.
    25. To live thus is by the Spirit and in submission to the Spirit.
    26. And [those that live so] are not lacking in bliss that they should torment one another and cut down each other.

    Its the fruit of the Spirit which :crucifies” the works of the flesh!

Comments are closed.