When is a Word of Knowledge a Word of Knowledge?

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Simply put, I’m just not sure. I’m not sure we’ve got it right. I’m not sure we’re describing it right. I’m not convinced.

For the past few decades I have been part of the church family who rightly expects the Gifts of the Spirit to be exercised in church life today, just as they were in the first Christian communities. It’s where I belong. Nothing tells me that they were only useful for an apostolic era and that they are now no longer valid or needed. If anything they are needed now more than ever and I long for other parts of the church to join us as we experience and share God’s active Spiritual Gifting building each other up.

But having said this I am not uncritical of it all – far from it. And one thing that I am increasingly unconvinced about is the way we conceive and present ‘Words of Knowledge’.

Taking my charismatic reading glasses off for a moment, re-reading 1 Corinthians 12 goes like this…

The NIV translates Paul’s greek in this way:

4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.
5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Note the phrase ‘message of’ used before ‘wisdom’ and ‘knowledge’.

Now what is a message of wisdom and a message of knowledge?
In the church today a message of knowledge, often linked to and not very clearly distinguished from the gift of ‘prophecy’, is the same kind of thing a Spiritualist minister has. It is the kind of knowing about something that is hidden from view. A spiritual knowing of something that normal people couldn’t know. Mostly this comes out when people are about to pray for healing so that the person ministering reads out a number of words of knowledge about people in the room (“there’s someone here who…”) and asks for those people to indicate who they are and invites them to receive prayer.

Now, on the one hand I am completely happy that God in his grace and in his eagerness to encourage people to trust him, might use this way of communicating to us. Indeed, as many have noticed, Jesus himself seemed to have this ability on a few occasions – most notably the woman at the well (knowing that she was not married).

At meetings today, then, people pray for ‘words of knowledge’, hoping that God will give them specific details about people’s lives that will enable them to open themselves to prayer. in larger meetings this is often the major way praying for healing is expressed. Specific words are given and specific healings are asked for. A more recent for of all this is ‘Treasure Hunting’ where Christians pray asking God to give them specific people to look out for. Then they go out on to the streets looking for these strangers, and if they see them, will tell them that they are their ‘treasure’ and that God has something for them.

But I’m not convinced. I’m not sure this is what Paul was talking about and I’m not sure it’s how God normally acts.

In Jesus’ ministry (our primary model) we see Jesus healing all the time. Yet, was there any occasion where Jesus acted like we do? Did he ever anticipate a healing with a word of knowledge? I can’t find one. Instead he simply healed people, asking them what they had wrong with them and healing them through his own word of authority. Indeed, he asked a blind person, obviously blind I imagine, to describe what he wanted God to do for him.

Did Jesus ever do treasure hunting? Not according to the gospels. Did he ever encourage his disciples to do it? No. Instead he simply told them to go to people’s homes and towns, and heal people who were ill or sick. Did he ever address the crowd and say something like, “There’s someone here with a pain in their left arm”, or “a bowel complaint”… or whatever? No. Instead he let people bring to him their sick friends, letting them tell him what was the problem… and then he healed them.

In Spiritualist churches we see many people convinced by the mystical knowledge of the seer, conned into believing that they really do know something when tests show that in fact they are as wrong as often if not more that they are right. Isn’t our dependence on this kind of seeing also similarly problematic. I am sure that I not the first skeptic in a room of 500 (or even 100) to doubt the words of knowledge given from the front. If God is ‘here to heal’, then why not simply ask people who are ill, and know that themselves, to come forward and receive healing. Why would God complicate things by adding a middle man?

Knowledge is important and Jesus had specific spiritual knowledge to bring us. As Dallas Willard points out very brilliantly Jesus knew things that we don’t about the way things work in reality in this world. He knew that there was nothing to fear if God is with us and that trust is the most appropriate response to this knowledge. Hence we consider the flowers and the birds… Jesus knew that judgement was around the corner for the people of Israel if they continued to believe that God’s biggest concern was to overthrow the Romans. Jesus knew that words had power – power to heal and power to forgive. He knew that he had the words of eternal life.

The spiritual gift of knowing stuff and helping others to know it too is not about knowing where people’s bodies are in pain. It is much more about knowing God, how he works in the world and how great is his love for people. This gift of knowing something is far more valuable and more urgently needed in our churches.

Let us avoid the show of knowledge and return to the reality of letting people with real knowledge of God’s world build us up and show us the way forward.

May God give us more messages of knowledge than ever.

What do you think?

http://growingenthusiasm.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/when-is-a-word-of-knowledge-a-word-of-knowledge/


149 thoughts on “When is a Word of Knowledge a Word of Knowledge?

  1. I can’t find any evidence anywhere of any so called “gifts of the spirit” operating in the manner Pentecostal believers claim.

  2. Greg, that is because you hang around with dead people and dead churches too much.

    Yes there are counterfeits and shysters – witness Sid Roth(shield) but there have always been.

    You know Greg, there are about 6.66Billion people out there who do not believe in Jesus because they are blind to His evidence, but how shall they believe if they do not have a witness?

    And these signs shall follow THOSE WHO BELIEVE.

    Actually Greg – sorry old chum but an explorer you are evidently not – you should be known as Vice Pope Gregory, the Disclaimer. In fact, do you really know Jesus? I mean really know Him? Have you been filled with the Spirit since you evidently believed?

    I am concerned that perhaps you have a sort of social gospel and no Power, but the Power is the good news – no Power, no good news, just religious claptrap, and toothless, candy cane christianity.

    These signs Greg, these signs.

    In the Aramaic Text, Jeremiah said that the nations would equivocate over Jerusalem and it would become a stumbling block – of course he was speaking prophetically of New Jerusalem – and that (New) Jerusalem would enlighten all the nations with the knowledge of the Lord. and that the powerful men of Judea (the Pharisees) would be envious of the Powers God would grant to believers.

    Come on Greg – no power? Sounds like a classic case of an empty lamp…it is there for the asking…but he that comes to God must believe that HE is and that HE IS the rewarder of those that diligently seek Him…in faith…nothing doubting…

    2. I wish you all possible joy, brethren, as you experience many trials and changes.
    3. For you know that holding on to the faith will result in you gaining Hope.
    4. For that Hope, then, shall represent wholesome works, so that you will be devoted and lacking in nothing.
    5. If a human being among you, then, is lacking in wisdom, they should ask God, who gives everyone simply and does not have to take it from one person to give it to another.
    6. Ask, however, through faith, without being at odds within yourself. Those who are at odds within, however, resemble the pirates of the sea whose spirits are always in turmoil.
    7. Such a person cannot hope to receive anything from the Lord.
    8. Someone who is at odds with his own opinions and crazy in all their ways. 0(:->)

  3. Greg maybe you can spend a week in NZ with an apparent LIVE person called Ian. He can show u how god talks with him.

    I used to think other christians were dead too and not as good as me.

    I repented of that.

    Btw i’d like to see greg as pope.

  4. The way Christians talk god is more intetested in finding them a carpark or a hot chick then solving world hunger.

    A word of knowledge on a cancer vaccine would be nice.

  5. Greg,
    so called “gifts of the spirit”

    Actually ‘so called’ by Paul, and described by Paul.

    ‘So called’ always implies to me some sort of counterfeit, which is what you are obviously trying to say, but if you don’t believe in half of what the Bible says, including creation, the supernatural and miracles, how could you possibly know whether a ‘so called’ gift or manifestation of the Spirit is taking place right before your very eyes?

    They are every easy to miss, especially if you are such a sceptic that you have to qualify, quantify and have scientifically or medically proven everything that might be happening before you.

    I was in a meeting once, where the Hoy Spirit was moving in power, the preacher was doing nothing. He had preached a simple, short, powerful gospel message. He stopped preaching when he saw the beginning of the moving of the Holy Spirit, and told people He was there.

    Th preacher stood on the platform, did not move, and asked for people to be reverent as the Holy Spirit touched peoples lives and ministered to them.

    The preacher touched not a soul, yet there were clear manifestations of change in people’s lives all over the auditorium, tears of surrender, joy or adoration, people moving limbs which were previously injured, People quiet and bowing down, people shouting and exuberant, people praising God as he demonstrated His presence to them in a personal way, and such like.

    There was a man from an evangelical church, a pastor, a sceptic, who was there to be a ‘discerner’ of the ministry, and here he was a witness of the power and wonder of the Spirit before his very eyes, which he was trying so hard not to believe, because it completely shook to the core his own theology.

    So I watched him briefly, and there he was racing up and down the aisle, manifesting his own incredulity at the scenes before him, crying out, “God is Sovereign! God is Sovereign!” at the top of his voice, which was hardly heard, because of the volume of free and sustained praise going up to God in the crowd as the Spirit moved amongst them.

    The sceptic didn’t shout these words out of respect, but out of self-awareness of his own understanding being challenged by God. it was like he was saying, “This cannot be! God is Sovereign!” Well God is, but He moves through the Church and by His Spirit amongst the people, and the people will respond.

    Even though this reformed minister saw what was happening he could not believe it. It was against his theology and doctrine so he tried so hard to reject it, and yet it could not be denied.

    And people all over that auditorium were healed. I interviewed some of them and there were some wonderful testimonies of God’s healing and deliverance, and not one hand was laid on them, no one fell under the power, the preacher did not move form the podium.

    But if you did not know what to look for you would not necessarily see it. The Wind blows where it wills.

  6. In essence I would agree with the concerns outlined in the post, having read it through, although I wouldn’t compare what happens with spiritualist meetings.

    The gift he mentions is just one operation of the the gifts of healings, whereby sometimes a minister will know or even experience an ailment in a person’s body and point it out. I think it is bona fide, but not, strictly speaking Word of Knowledge or Word of Wisdom.

    These two gifts often work together, one being information granted by the Spirit which is only relative to the person or people being addressed, and is generally saying what is happening at the time in their lives or has happened, with the result of ministering in a way which can bring reassurance, comfort, edification, healing, or deliverance, or better clarity in what to do moving forward. The other gift, Word of Wisdom, is more akin to prophecy in that it gives relevant information on steps which can be taken to bring a positive change, or could be a warning of events which could take place if certain steps are taken. It can be simple or profound, and is generally not new to the person receiving, but confirmation which brings clarity.

    ‘Treasuring’ I have not heard of, but it seems to be ill advisable, since the gifts and manifestation of the Spirit are as He leads, and not manufacturable by us.

  7. The fundamentalists have cobbled prophecy.

    They’ve totally redefined it as apparent in the scriptures.

    Nothing I see called prophecy would be considered prophetic in the scriptures.

    Prophecy isn’t fortune telling or predicting the future. It goes hand in hand with calling out injustice and returning to the ways of the Lord.

    Martin Luther King, God Squad’s John Smith, Wilberforce, Gandhi would be closer to biblical prophets than those running around claiming prophetic gifts.

  8. Prophecy: propheteia:
    1) prophecy
    1a) a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring
    the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing
    the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things
    hidden; esp. by foretelling future events
    1b) Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets
    1b1) of the prediction of events relating to Christ’s kingdom
    and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations
    and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy,
    the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due
    1b2) of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers
    called prophets
    1b3) the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the
    predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the
    gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ

  9. Like I said prophecy has been totally redefined to fortune telling, predicting the future and visions.

    Everyone thinks prophecy is apocalyptic and future oriented when it is not. So everyone thinks their Daniel or John Patmos. Except Daniel and John Patmos wrote about specific situations in their historical context.

    Eddie Mabo was closer to a prophet then many purported Christian prophets.

  10. Re 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

    Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

    Re 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

    Re 22:7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

    Re 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

    Re 22:18* For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book…

    Re 22:19* and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    I think it’s a prophetic book!

  11. The working of the wicked one is by the power of satan – I have seen both in operation.

    Bones, I do not presume to have attained, but I feel I have been granted an insight into what Paul meant by “Dead while living” and Jesus by the second estate being worse than the first and being removed from the Lamb’s Ledger of Life. It is dead as in you have the wiring and the want but not the connection and you have gotten so used to not being connected that you even make a theology by candle light to explain it. The power of satan is in and with the agreements of those who deny or contradict or BLASPHEME Christ.

    I do not by any means consider myself better in any way than Greg – maybe better informed on some topics as I am sure he is too – we are all at the end of the day just vessels of clay and we do not designate ourselves any more than we determined our own genesis. I feel sorry for people to whom the heavens are as brass – been there, done that – and found that the very thing which prevents the Power is unrelinquished judgments, the self-destruction mechanisms which are the unremittable blasphemies of the Spirit.

    The best thing that ever happened to me was the day Jesus woke me at 4:30am to tell me that I did not really know Him, I just thought that I did. (what is it with Him and that time? Maybe it was when He was resurrected Himself?)

    And Bones, you’re a bonehead – O’Bomber has spent enough on war in his first term to eradicate world poverty and hunger and thereby most disease AND countries like Haiti are like they are because they have been perpetually plundered by wealthy, usually White Catholic Christian or Jewish arseholes who care not a jot about their fellow man, and as that man of God, Archbishop Desmond Tutu said, to be aware of a great crime and not to do anything about it is to be complicit in that crime.

    America and Europe are the primary cause of world hunger and genocide – their filthy perfidious record of hate is going to come back on them like a whirlwind – and who will be the missionaries to place pillows under these dying races?

    God is going to divide the dividers, and those who have raped the earth are in for a big surprise – they keep pushing God and pushing – and though His mercy endures for ever, His justice is sure and swift and when it comes they will run to the rocks and say “Hide us from the face of the lamb”.

    Every time we profit by the impoverishment of another we are hating God, not man – to hate man is to hate God. The power to manage the world’s weather systems is in the hands of Rothschild, Raytheon and the Royals – and the reason why the poor will always be with you until Jesus comes back is that greedy avaricious arseholes are greedy and avaricious and want more than their denarius, so they will reap in the flesh what they have sown in the flesh and their gold and their silver, their “values”, will consume their flesh as if by fire.

    The “Reptilian” Rothschild Family fortunes are enough to fix everything many times over, add to that those Gila Monster Guelfs and their massive fortunes, and of course all those other divine right of Kings aristocrats and the mewling dead while living idiots who serve them and suck up to them and who bow to the Baals and the clowns who commit to the Crown and place their offerings on the Eastward altars of the house of the rising sun – the Bordellos of Babylon – they who are under their thumb – and of course his nibs, the Pope – the devil’s right hand. If you are not born from above, then you aer born from beneath and have the nature of your father, who is a lying lizard. a slithering serpent

    Still think that “Man of Peace” O’Bummer is a follower of Jesus? No matter how good porcelain may be made to look, if it is full of crap it is just another dunny. But I feel the point you are perhaps making is that it is for Jesus to cleanse the vessels and to present us as spotless before God and that we should know no mane after the flesh but after Christ – which also includes having the discernment to realise that the people who cause poverty profit thereby and would not have it any other way, because they are avaricious arseholes who are served by a world and worldly church that is full of its own crap and devoted to its own comfort and culture.

    You want answer to world poverty? Go ask TPTB – if they have no compunction about breaking Aussie farmers with artificially induce droughts and floods, then they will have no compunction with sending believers to the guillotines when the time comes.

    World poverty IS Big Business – death and war are big business and the inevitable consequence of abortion on demand is mandatory euthanasia – NHS style.

    The miracle of compound interest is that people are such schmucks they are ensuring their own poverty through their greed for gain. People are so stupid concerning this that is truly painful to contemplate. There is more than enough wealth int eh world to care for everybody, but as long as about 10% own 90%, and 1% own over 50% and people still believe talking heads and political puppets the situation will, due to the miracle of compound stupidity, mean that eventually the New Aristocracy and their sniveling quislings and hyper gonadal Germanic Praetorian guard will cheerfully dispatch those who are surplus to requirements in their Godless New Eden – but their ‘values’ will burn their flesh as if by fire – mark my words Bones – God is not slack concerning His promises.

    Sorry about the rant, but quite frankly I think you need someone to bitch slap some sense into you as to why there is poverty at all. Its like wars Bones – the rich get rich and the poor get deader…

  12. BY the way, while avaricious Catholic, Protesting Catholic, Muslim and Jewish people are by no means the extent of the problem, most other religions do not aspire to ownership of the earth and of all its resources, accept of course the two paradoxical wings of socialism; communism and nazism, aka man-as-god satanism.

    The pathologically avaricious aspire to the Mark of human achievement, the “666” standard of excellence, the beast a man can get. The whole world pretty much serves the Beast now, and when push comes to shove and when the economy collapses and you are queuing for bread and soup, remember those nice people who control most functions in this satan serving secular sewer called The West have screwed you – ROYALLY! LOL.

  13. Recently I spent some time chatting with a young man who was terribly hungry for God but who was also engaged with the world – you cannot serve two masters nor can you be betrothed to two suitors. He asked me if I could come round and help him out but I felt God say to me, “They are looking for answers and a rescuer – this is a trap – they are not ready yet and they will pander to your ego – they are sheep without a shepherd.”

    I had discerned this need in them such that my heart was open to God’s instruction and not to their “need” – which is in reality the flip side of their greed and until God grants them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth and they are not trying to play both sides of the paradigm, they are better off to stay in the fires of affliction a bit longer – no meat is any good undercooked. Spiritual vampires feed on the life blood of uncooked sinners…

    The next day a dear friend whose son prophesies, said that his son had told him the night before that people were gong to try and get me to start a work for them and I was not to engage as the time was not right and to be extra cautious of any such association.

    The prophetic word confirmed the Word spoken to my heart.
    I am sure Steve knows what I am talking about, yes? And Q.

  14. I am sure Steve knows what I am talking about, yes? And Q.

    Maybe…but no one else understands a word of the dribble you post most of the time Ian…I notice you still haven’t posted the name of the man who rose from the dead in a public hospital, nor the name of the hospital neither…of course no doubt you will have heard from god that I am not ready to hear and so you must not tell me so I can confirm your story.

  15. Ian’s ramblings are perfect evidence as to how Christians have hijacked prophecy to be something more atuned with Nostradamus than say Isaiah or Jeremiah.

  16. (You know Greg, there are about 6.66Billion people out there who do not believe in Jesus because they are blind to His evidence,)

    Approximately, one in every 7.77 people are catholic.

  17. Nice numbers eyes, but it is actually 1 in 5.9 is a “member” of the Catholic Church. If you add in the Protesting Catholics and other denominations, for there really is only One Body in that respect, one Family Tree of Christianity or perhaps more correctly, Churchianity, then the ratio is 33.3% Christian and I guess 66.6% “other”. I expect this ratio to eventually swing as the great end time VIVAL hits. Let’s face it guys, the devil is a loser, he has already lost – and besides, this world is about man in agreement with Satan – his power is Man’s power, they yield their kingship to the Beast.

    Now Greg, flat out mate you are being a prick. I told you God expressly forbade me to contact that man until the appointed time, he is something special and God has him hidden from the likes of you and others who do not know the Lord and are riddled with unbelief, and I know that you do not really know Him, by your conversation. Do not mock God nor test him sir – it is a very foolish thing to do – you should instead pray, “Thy will be done oh God”. Now I have probably offended you which has provoked your unbelief, that is how it works, that is the foolishness of preaching – but i do not apologize – there are some things which plainly have to be said. Jesus cut the Pharisees up for dunny paper mate, and if anyone knows a Pharisee, it is me, formerly a Pharisee of the Pharisees.

    Why don’t you Greg, write to the Christchurch Public Hospital Intensive Care Ward and ask them if a young man run over by a car while exiting a manhole in Ferry Road at 6am about 10-11yrs on a Monday morning if (memory serves), ago had a miracle healing. You will probably encounter the wall of silence I did and in my case, God reminded me that I was to butt out – this was His action. Mate you have no idea, when this guy came into my shop, I suddenly became so aware of my own sin – he was so holy – so sanctified – he made me feel unclean! I beheld him and said in my heart, “Oh dear God, what it would be like to be so innocent!” This man is a walking epistle – i was in awe of his grace, I was slayed by his presence, he was like so pure he made me seem filthy. Ho0w is that sunshine?

    I have recently contacted a cancer specialist client of mine to find out and the patient records are sealed. I asked a PhD post grad medical researcher to check it out with me and his answer was that they simply do not want to talk about it – it is mentioned only in hushed tones – there was a media blackout. There is a big hand saying BACK OFF – but there are Xians here who would know about the event, but when you try and find anything out, it is like God has just put a media blackout on the event. The fact that nothing of this resonates with you tells me volumes about you, and the fact that Bones does not understand what I say tells me reams about him – but what the hell – who gives a damn – it is Jesus who will clean us all up and make us stand before Him and present us spotless before the Father, can you understand that?

    According to his mother, the only people who could bear to be in the room with him while he was healing were those who God would allow in there – others who tried to enter were banished by the Spirit of God and probably some heavy duty angels – but I suppose you don’t believe in the ministry of Angels either? Has that passed too.

    By the Bones, when you have been boned, you resort to insults and avoiding reasonable questions – to wit – you are a bully sir – no wonder you have a bad back – you are so burdened with unbelief. O’Bummer is an antichrist – admit it – he is a deceiver.

    And one last thing Greg, what did Jesus say to Herod when he demanded evidence of the Lord’s miracle working kingdom of God Power? The only reason why I camp here is for those who do understand, and you guys make me search out Truth, cos I know you are so horribly wrong on so many counts it is simply not funny, and so many others who drop by here know you too – so the jig is up boys. I guess I will bet blacklisted with that but in a few years these words will come back to haunt you…believe me…shalom and selah…

  18. By the way EYES – there is a distinct difference between the 33.3% who are nominally Christian and the Lord’s remnant. In the last days, the apostasy shall be such that at one point, the actual number of people who truly know Jesus will become quite apparent. Funny how Chinese and Vietnamese believers expect to forfeit their lives for their faith yet we in the West think that it is a passport to prosperity, usually on the back of the exploitation of others less fortunate by our Babylonian whore culture.

    The coming tribulation will be the best thing to happen to the Church, or as one wee 9yr old Maori boy prophesied in 2005, tugging on his grandma’s skirts in a Supermarket, “God’s told me He is gonna bash the Churches in Christchurch Grandma.” The wee tyke! He has gone home to be with Jesus. People really do not understand God, they think that they do, but they do not…and he just keeps amazing me as he reveals Himself and how he works us, not how we work Him.

  19. OH and to those rapture pundits – the falling away is not a catching away, it is the condition of the world and church when pretty much everyone resorts to their own opinion, to their own judgment, and to their own mind, instead of the Mind of Christ. Jesus once said to me in 1983, “Ian, if the whole world went apostate tomorrow, would you still be my Body?” “Yes Lord, of course, what else is there?” “Good, that is how it must be.”

    And thee? How about you and yours? Are you all prepared to die for Jesus? You better be, lest you be a John 16:3 man instead of John 3:16.

    The first time Jesus came to His own He was rejected and despised, and so too the second time, and he will instruct his workers to go out to the highways and byways and compel such as would come in to the marriage supper of the Lamb to do so.

  20. Bones,
    Ian’s ramblings are perfect evidence as to how Christians have hijacked prophecy to be something more atuned with Nostradamus than say Isaiah or Jeremiah.

    Nice try, but I can’t actually read Most of his stuff because it doesn’t actually make sense most of the time, so it can’t be prophecy. He occasionally has a reasonable insight, but that is rare.

    I thought it was more akin to your own allegory theories, so you should be able to interpret Ian well.

    No disrespect, Ian, and I love you, but I don’t see what you see, at all.

  21. (No disrespect, Ian, and I love you, but I don’t see what you see, at all.)

    DITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT0

  22. (No disrespect, Ian, and I love you, but I don’t see what you see, at all.)

    DITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT0

    I’m not going to be so nice…I think you’re a well meaning sincere follower of Jesus…but your a frigging nut bag…nothing you say makes any sense at all…and I’ve been around some weirdos mate.

    Of course god told you not to tell anyone. Of course this guy is sooooo special.

    BS!

    I’m no idiot Ian…I’ve been researching you my friend….I don’t think you’ll be parking…or sparking around here much longer.

  23. Bones,
    Isaiah or Jeremiah.

    This what I don’t get, Bones, because you claim to be in a pentecostal church and yet you don’t grasp New Testament 101 on so many issues, including post-2000 contemporary Pentecostal doctrine which has moved on from old-school Pentecostalism into a more user-freindly form.

    For instance, you are looking for Old Testament prophecy,vis a vis Isaiah or Jeremiah, when it is standard teaching that New Testament prophecy is that it is different in the local church setting, being, as Paul says, for the comfort, exhortation or edification of the church.

    The New Testament Prophets, of course, may give stronger warning, as when Paul was warned that his entry into Rome would result in being chained and imprisoned, and his life was at risk.

    But there is a clearly emphasised difference between the local church gift of prophecy, and the utterance of a new Testament Prophet, which is again separate from the recorded messages of the Old Testament Prophets, most of whom were persecuted and even executed for their messages.

  24. Greg,
    I’ve been researching you my friend….I don’t think you’ll be parking…or sparking around here much longer.

    Ouch! That sounds awfully like a threat to me.

    Can we all research you, too?

  25. Speaking of threats, here’s an interesting one from the US [where else?].

    Mullett attacks Beards

    The leader of a breakaway Amish group who ordered his followers to chop off his rivals’ beards has been sentenced to 15 years in prison.

    Samuel Mullet was convicted of hate crimes last year for organising the beard-cutting attacks within a community in Ohio in the US.

    Fifteen others found guilty of carrying out the attacks, including three of Mullet’s brothers and six women, were given lesser sentences of between one and seven years in prison.

    Federal prosecutors said Mullet, 67, a religious leader in the small Amish community of Bergholz, had ordered a “campaign of terror” against nine people, including estranged family members, who had challenged his leadership.

    Prior to sentencing, Mullet was quoted by WKYC television as saying: “If somebody needs to be punished, I’ll take the punishment for everybody.”

    “Let these mothers and fathers go home to their children,” he was quoted as saying.

    “My goal in life has been to help people that are the underdog, to help people who are frowned on, mocked.”

    The group carried out five attacks between September and November 2011, in which they broke into homes and used horse mane shears and battery-powered clippers to violently shave off victims’ beards and hair.

    The attackers then took snapshots of the victims and circulated them, a sign of humiliation in the community, which views beards and long hair as a sacred symbol of devotion to God.

    Mullet, a multi-millionaire and father of 18 children, was charged with ordering the attacks but was not accused of participating in them.

    Defence lawyers had argued the hair-cutting was motivated by love and compassion, and was intended to compel the victims to return to a conservative Amish lifestyle.

    The case attracted widespread media attention, providing a rare window into the historically reclusive and peaceful Amish society, which embraces a traditional lifestyle devoid of much of modern technology.

    During the trial, witnesses portrayed Mullet as a fire-and-brimstone preacher and iron-fisted autocrat who imposed strict and often bizarre discipline on his flock of 18 families. Several labelled the group a cult.

    Mullet read and censored all incoming and outgoing mail, punished wrongdoers with spanking and confinement in chicken coops, and had sex with several of the young married women under the guise of marital counselling and absolution.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-09/amish-leader-gets-15-years27-jail-for-beard-cutting-attacks/4509886

    You don’t have a beard do you, Ian?

  26. “Nice try, but I can’t actually read Most of his stuff because it doesn’t actually make sense most of the time, so it can’t be prophecy. He occasionally has a reasonable insight, but that is rare.”

    That’s good. So it’s not just me then.

  27. It’s simple Steve – Martin Luther King, Garth Hewitt, Desmond Tutu, Dom Halder Comara – prophet

    Jesse Duplantis and the “I got a word from the Lord” crowd – nutbag

    You look at prophecy from your narrow Pentecostal view of predicting the future.

    Which ones are the New Testament prophets?

  28. (I’m no idiot Ian…I’ve been researching you my friend….I don’t think you’ll be parking…or sparking around here much longer.)

    So Greg,
    Reveal that i am the biggest dumb ass on your blog. And see how that helps!

  29. “I don’t think you’ll be parking…or sparking around here much longer.”

    Please don’t do that Greg.

    Besides Ian’s gonna need all the support he gets when Obama/UN/China invades what’s left of NZ that hasn’t been destroyed by earthquake or tsunami.

  30. Dear Big Bwuvva Greg,

    Will you also be researching Zorro? You see he is so totally anonymous and vacuous nobody actually knows who s/he is or what s/he stands for, apart from the fact that s/he makes huge amounts of lucre for massive corporations for a living, which is completely the opposite to Ian, who has quite obviously been touched by the hydroponically produced ganja at some point in his journey, and is a jeweller and probably gets too close the dust and solvents.

    We are so curious about who the secretive Zorro is so that we can give her/him any kind of credibility for what s/he claims, and interact with anything s/he says about others from her/his hidden lair in the who knows where.

    Do you also have data on Bones, Q, wazza or Eyes? Margot came out so you probably don’t need to research her, although I believe she now goes by another pseudonym or two over at Jakes, which reminds me how scathing she was of how people would use more than one hidden id, as if that made a difference to the great scheme of things. Jake was into this as well, despite currently using more ids than an Interpol suspect.

    Maybe you could research these folk whilst your at it, and have the report on Bone’s desk by Monday!

    Thanks!

    Steve [my file is in the post]

  31. Duplantis,
    “Some people don’t believe in the rapture! Well stay here! Enjoy yourself, because you’re going to get your brains and your rear-end kicked hard! I’m going out on the first load! I’m going to the marriage Supper of the Lamb! Now you can do what you want to do, so while you’re getting your brains beaten out, I’ll eat your dinner!”

    You gotta love Jesse! He’s not a prophet, by the way, Bones, he’s an evangelist, and a very friendly, funny, warm and engaging person too! What you see is what you get. No compromise, and no frills!

  32. wazza,
    Quite good… He’s very multi-talented.

    Indeed, and probably a nice person, but has such a chip on his shoulder he is weighed down with it. He needs to just get on with the worship and honour the Saviour, and preaching the good news.

    Singing about the Saviour and condemning God’s children and Jake’s own brethren seems to be somewhat hypocritical.

    Funny how often it is the would-be worship leader who rises up!

    I don’t understand why Jake had to go from the site. No one pushed him, and no one cares who he is or isn’t. Who would hold anything against him for having a different opinion and expressing it? He’s no stronger in his opinion than Greg or Bones, and we don’t hate one another for being different, just slap each other around with a halibut from time to time!

    But ripping Christians from an anonymous site? That’s another story.

  33. Bones,
    Compared to Mr DuPlantis, this is real prophecy

    My dear Bones, you are such a dill!

    In the very comment before you made this one I said Duplantis is not a prophet, but an evangelist.

    I guess your halibut took control of your hand on this occasion!

    But Luther-King? Definitely a prophet for his times, and a believer!

    I’m not really interested, though, in your petty ‘whose the greatest’ prophet game. There are measures of prophecy and different expressions of he gift, and then there is the office.

    Yo need to go away and study contemporary Pentecostal teaching on the gifts of the Spirit, then report back and we’ll talk.

  34. Greg has made it clear that he researching people.
    And now i bid you all fare well;adieu, adieus, adieux, adios, bye-bye, cheerio, ciao, goodbye, hasta la vista, have a nice day, leave-taking, parting, salutation, sendoff, so long, ta-ta, valediction.

    And may the grace of the lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit’s AMEN.

  35. Dear Big Bwuvva Greg,

    Steve,Ian has been making some very specific claims regarding his ministry in NZ and people being raised from the dead – that is what I’m referring to – Ian’s modus operandi is to dump his nut bag stuff until people get sick of him and he decides they aren’t Christians and then he moves on – this is what he’s doing here a d so he won’t be here for much longer.

    Your other comments are just crap- so go blow it out your arse

  36. “Yo need to go away and study contemporary Pentecostal teaching on the gifts of the Spirit, then report back and we’ll talk.”

    I’m well aware of it, thank you very much and it falls short.

    If you can’t see how the prophets rage against injustice in the Bible then claim that prophecy is actually a sentimental word from the Lord about which shirt I’ll wear, you’ve got no idea.

    Thankfully there are real prophets calling the nations to account.

    None of them are Pentecostal. They’re too busy looking for the future.

  37. I was making a light-hearted suggestion, Greg, out of an awkward comment you made!

    Researching people as moderator isn’t on!

    All you had to do was explain yourself and chill out.

    The rude remarks you make are at least as unhelpful as Ian’s spiritual insights and claims, but if it helps him unwind, then the only inconvenience as far as i am concerned is the space he takes and sometimes the detour he makes.

    And if it helps you to speak dirty to people, be my guest.

  38. I have no problem researching someone’s claim to raise someone from the dead. Especially when they’re making a big deal out of it.

  39. Bones,
    I’m well aware of it, thank you very much and it falls short.

    Well, fair enough, but I don’t think you understand it or you wouldn’t attempt to compare it to Old Testament prophecy, which it ain’t, and which is taught in all contemporary Pentecostal circles these days.

    By your reckoning Sir Winston Churchill would have to be a prophet too!

    Do you think Ghandi was speaking by the Holy Spirit, or a conscientious man of his times giving his dream for his nation a spin?

    Was George Bush a prophet for seeing the need to pump billions into Africa to relieve the AIDs crisis? or was he a pragmatic President who saw a great need?

    The thing about justice and calling nations to account is that it doesn’t always take the Word o the Lord to see where the injustice lies.

    Then you would also have people who see a different picture of justice or injustice in the same scenario, for instance in the Middle East conflict, so who is the prophet of God in this case?

  40. Bones,
    I have no problem researching someone’s claim to raise someone from the dead. Especially when they’re making a big deal out of it.

    Fortunately I missed that one because I don’t read his stuff!

    But how will you research something like that?

    Will you also be researching the people I’ve prayed for who claim recovery?

  41. wazza,
    I’ve raised a few but the difference is I dont make a big deal out of it.

    he wasn’t discussing eyebrows, wazza!

  42. “and which is taught in all contemporary Pentecostal circles these days.”

    These would be prophecies of the latter rain and all sorts of mumbo jumbo which matters not one iota to the kingdom of God.

    How on earth you can compare prophecies like MLK and Tutu’s with the “what’s God got planned for me and my church club” is beyond me.

  43. Steve, the minute you claim to have raised someone from the dead, or claim to k ow someone who was raised, you can count on the investigation occurring.

  44. Bones,
    These would be prophecies of the latter rain and all sorts of mumbo jumbo which matters not one iota to the kingdom of God.

    That would be old school Pentecostal.

    And you just proved my point.

    How on earth you can compare prophecies like MLK and Tutu’s with the “what’s God got planned for me and my church club” is beyond me.

    Twice!

    That shows you don’t have a clue what is taught in contemporary Pentecostal circles on New Testament prophecy.

  45. Oscar Romero’s last sermon – prophecy.

    He was shot the next day while celebrating communion.

    “We have lived through a tremendously tragic week. I could not give you the facts before, but a week ago last Saturday, on 15 March, one of the largest and most distressing military operations was carried out in the countryside. The villages affected were La Laguna, Plan de Ocotes and El Rosario. The operation brought tragedy: a lot of ranches were burned, there was looting, and-inevitably-people were killed. In La Laguna, the attackers killed a married couple, Ernesto Navas and Audelia Mejia de Navas, their little children, Martin and Hilda, thirteen and seven years old, and eleven more peasants.

    Other deaths have been reported, but we do not know the names of the dead. In Plan de Ocotes, two children and four peasants were killed, including two women. In El Rosario, three more peasants were killed. That was last Saturday.

    Last Sunday, the following were assassinated in Arcatao by four members of ORDEN: peasants Marcelino Serrano, Vincente Ayala, twenty-four years old, and his son, Freddy. That same day, Fernando Hernandez Navarro, a peasant, was assassinated in Galera de Jutiapa, when he fled from the military.

    Last Monday, 17 March, was a tremendously violent day. Bombs exploded in the capital as well as in the interior of the country. The damage was very substantial at the headquarters of the Ministry of Agriculture. The campus of the national university was under armed siege from dawn until 7 P.M. Throughout the day, constant bursts of machine-gun fire were heard in the university area. The archbishop’s office intervened to protect people who found themselves caught inside.

    On the Hacienda Colima, eighteen persons died, at least fifteen of whom were peasants. The administrator and the grocer of the ranch also died. The armed forces confirmed that there was a confrontation. A film of the events appeared on TV, and many analyzed interesting aspects of the situation.

    At least fifty people died in serious incidents that day: in the capital, seven persons died in events at the Colonia Santa Lucia; on the outskirts of Tecnillantas, five people died; and in the area of the rubbish dump, after the evacuation of the site by the military, were found the bodies of four workers who had been captured in that action.

    Sixteen peasants died in the village of Montepeque, thirty-eight kilometers along the road to Suchitoto. That same day, two students at the University of Central America were captured in Tecnillantas: Mario Nelson and Miguel Alberto Rodriguez Velado, who were brothers. The first one, after four days of illegal detention, was handed over to the courts. Not so his brother, who was wounded and is still held in illegal detention. Legal Aid is intervening on his behalf.

    Amnesty International issued a press release in which it described the repression of the peasants, especially in the area of Chalatenango. The week’s events confirm this report in spite of the fact the government denies it. As I entered the church, I was given a cable that says, “Amnesty International confirmed today [that was yesterday] that in El Salvador human rights are violated to extremes that have not been seen in other countries.” That is what Patricio Fuentes (spokesman for the urgent action section for Central America in Swedish Amnesty International) said at a press conference in Managua, Nicaragua.

    Fuentes confirmed that, during two weeks of investigations he carried out in El Salvador, he was able to establish that there had been eighty-three political assassinations between 10 and 14 March. He pointed out that Amnesty International recently condemned the government of El Salvador, alleging that it was responsible for six hundred political assassinations. The Salvadorean government defended itself against the charges, arguing that Amnesty International based its condemnation on unproved assumptions.

    Fuentes said that Amnesty had established that in El Salvador human rights are violated to a worse degree than the repression in Chile after the coupe d’etat. The Salvadorean government also said that the six hundred dead were the result of armed confrontations between army troops and guerrillas. Fuentes said that during his stay u l El Salvador, he could see that the victims had been tortured before their deaths and mutilated afterward.

    The spokesman of Amnesty International said that the victims’ bodies characteristically appeared with the thumbs tied behind their backs. Corrosive liquids had been applied to the corpses to prevent identification of the victims by their relatives and to prevent international condemnation, the spokesman added. Nevertheless, the bodies were exhumed and the dead have been identified. Fuentes said that the repression carried out by the Salvadorean army was aimed at breaking the popular organizations through the assassination of their leaders in both town and country.

    According to the spokesman of Amnesty International, at least three thousand five hundred peasants have fled from their homes to the capital to escape persecution. “We have complete lists in London and Sweden of young children and women who have been assassinated for being organized,” Fuentes stated….

    I would like to make a special appeal to the men of the army, and specifically to the ranks of the National Guard, the police and the military. Brothers, you come from our own people. You are killing your own brother peasants when any human order to kill must be subordinate to the law of God which says, “Thou shalt not kill.” No soldier is obliged to obey an order contrary to the law of God. No one has to obey an immoral law. It is high time you recovered your consciences and obeyed your consciences rather than a sinful order. The church, the defender of the rights of God, of the law of God, of human dignity, of the person, cannot remain silent before such an abomination. We want the government to face the fact that reforms are valueless if they are to be carried out at the cost of so much blood. In the name of God, in the name of this suffering people whose cries rise to heaven more loudly each day, I implore you, I beg you, I order you in the name of God: stop the repression.

    The church preaches your liberation just as we have studied it in just as we have studied it in the holy Bible today. It is a liberation that has, above all else, respect for the dignity of the person, hope for humanity’s common good, and the transcendence that looks before all to God and only from God derives its hope and its strength.”

    On March 24, 1980, after ending his final homily, Romero turned to the congregation to consecrate the Eucharist. And he said:

    “May this Body immolated and this Blood sacrificed for Mankind nourish us also, that we may give our body and our blood over to suffering and pain, like Christ — not for Self, but to give harvests of peace and justice to our People.”

    Then, the assassin’s bullet pierced his heart.

    And like Jesus who urged forgiveness for the obedient Roman soldiers who were “only” following orders as they carried out his torture and execution, Romero’s last words were: “May God have mercy on the assassins.”

    But yeah you’re right.

    It’s not Pentecostal prophecy.

  46. Gandhi’s prophecy:

    “Mankind is approaching hard times, because as soon as the measure of its sins will be full, it will be called to account by the superior power above us.
    You may call this event as you wish: Judgment day, final settlement, or doomsday. It will come, most likely, very soon.
    Whoever will survive this settlement will see an entirely new earthly existence manifested.
    For a long, very long time the world war will be crossed out from the dictionary of mankind, perhaps even for all time.
    Christmas, the festival of Christianity, will be accepted by all religions as the true festival of Peace.
    Blessed be, who will live to see this Epoch”

    I don’t see this as being an gentler on the soul than Revelation, Bones. You reject the cataclysmic nature of some of Revelation yet adopt the apocalyptic premonitions of Gandhi! Strange indeed.

    He also predicted four wars between India and Pakistan, three o which have occurred, and the last to be a nuclear holocaust, which, ironically coincides with Nostradamus!

    I think I’ll stick to Biblical prophecy on the last days, and enjoy he simple prophecy of the local church as an assistance to the journey we are on in Christ.

    Apocalyptic predictions which are outside Biblical principles are to be avoided. We don’t need another Revelation. We need faith.

  47. You’re right. Pentecostal prophecy is totally different. Has nothing to do with the real world, injustice but with whatever happens to enter my head.

  48. Can you give the link for the claim of raising from the dead? I don’t read Ian’s comments because I don’t always have a vomit bag handy.

  49. There you go. Making prophecy about predicting the future when in essence it is about interpreting the current world.

    Romero, King, Tutu were prophets. Their vision of the kingdom of God was based on justice, humanity, dignity and equality.

    They weren’t predicting future events but proclaiming the kingdom of God and what that means for their people.

    Sure as hell wasn’t pie in the sky stuff.

    Who’s going to kill a pentecostal who prophecies God’s gonna bless them financially abundantly or that their church would be filled to overflowing.

    No one would give a toss.

  50. So we see people expecting some kind of GREAT REVIVAL before the comming of the LORD. Yet little do people know that the GREAT apostasy comes first. HEY HEY!

  51. Actually I think some of the prophetic poets and songwriters, authors and artists even political figures of the age are quite accurate in many ways, especially on social issues, but if you are discussing how prophecy works in the local church you need to rethink some of your doctrine.

    I had a man in our local church come in three years before the global financial crash and, in personal discussions, declare his concerns about the ay in which the world’s financial institutions and governments were heading towards the biggest disaster since the Great Depression. The writing was on the wall.

    But we are all called to judge prophecy.

    The difference between the Old and New Covenants is that, firstly, we have the mystery Church revealed, and the Lord works in and through the Church, and secondly, the Old Testament saints were not filled with the Spirit unless they were a priest, king or prophet appointed by God to be a spokesperson of the Spirit, whereas, under the NewCovenant, every believer has the Spirit, and every believer can be filled with the Spirit, and can hear form and be led by the Spirit.

    Therefore prophecy has a different outworking and emphasis under the New Testament.

    We do not need an Isaiah, or an Ezekiel.

    We have the Holy Spirit.

    Prophecy 101!

  52. OK Bones, is this just going to be an attack on C3 because I attend one of their churches, or are you going to seriously discuss contemporary prophecy?

  53. Bones,
    There you go. Making prophecy about predicting the future when in essence it is about interpreting the current world.

    But your examples were Isaiah and Ezekiel, who were both highly predictive. All of the Old testament prophets were predictive. Their social commentary consisted of the reasons Israel was going to the dogs and bout to be taken into captivity if they did not repent. they revealed the coming Messiah and what the signs would be. they spoke of the last days, the judgment, the redemption, the deliverer the saviour and many other aspects of the future.

    Jesus opened the book at Isaiah 60 read it out and said it was fulfilled that day. I would call that predictive on Isaiah’s part. Matthew identified Isaiah’s prophecy of Jesus’ healing ministry. Paul reminds us of Isaiah 53s prediction of the cross! Etc, etc, etc.

    Daniel is a prophet who predicted the future on many counts. As is Zechariah, Zephaniah, Micah, Habbakuk, Malachi, etc, etc!

    What, exactly, are you saying prophecy is, again?

  54. (Can you give the link for the claim of raising from the dead? I don’t read Ian’s comments because I don’t always have a vomit bag handy)

    First you need to park up, then Spark Up Dude. And then life will become so much more clearer, MAN!

  55. I think we could keep to the topic and be civil.

    So, what do you all think a “word of knowledge” was, is there still such a thing and what is it exactly?

    We should be able to do that without offending anyone.

    btw, the nature of prophecy is another subject, but in Acts, Agabus was listed as a prophet and he predicted a future famine, and also warned Paul about what would happen to him later. So, in OT and NT we see examples of Prophets who foretold future events.

    I don’t see prophets as just being people who speak against social ills. An atheist could do that.

  56. re Ian. I’m not sure just why he angers people so much.
    Maybe I’ve heard so many claims in my time that I’m used to it.

  57. @greg Far be it from me to give you advice….

    but you said you were going to be preaching on Sunday. I think preaching is important, and sadly there’s a lot of preaching that is forgotten. I’m sure you’re going to say good stuff that will have impact in peoples lives. If I were you, I’d leave controversy here until after Sunday.

    Sometimes we can let things distract us.

    and btw – what is your style? Some people read from notes, some like Joel Osteen memorize the entire message, and others speak more off the cuff. Public speaking is something that interests me – and I love the way some speeches have been remembered long after they were given.

    So, how do you go about it?

  58. Sorry, Bones, that first youtube wasn’t supposed to be ‘Living Like Zombie”. Ha Ha! I had one on Moses and the Pentateuch by Mortification, who are an Australian ‘Christian Death Metal’ band!

    Apologies!

  59. @steve Looks like we’ve come a long way since
    “God said to Noah, theres gonna be a floody floody…..get those animals out of the muddy muddy…..”

    Not sure whether that version or your’s does less for me!
    lol

    Which reminds me that I’m looking forward to Russel Crowe being Noah. Who could be better than him – except maybe Arnold!

  60. (When is a Word of Knowledge a Word of Knowledge?)

    Bones,
    i kid you not,,,my light just went out.
    I am trying to find a candle or equivilent.
    I think that we, down here on the south coast of NSW are in for a big thunderstorm. It is the deep breath before the plunge.
    My little Doggy, which is a staffy cross red cattle cross whippet; couldn’t give a crap. But my little pussy is scared senseless.

    AWESOM WEATHER

  61. “OK Bones, is this just going to be an attack on C3 because I attend one of their churches, or are you going to seriously discuss contemporary prophecy?”

    I’m giving examples of Pentecostal prophecy. Apparently I don’t know what they are. Why are you so defensive?

    I actually say that most Christians don’t know what prophecy is.

    “But your examples were Isaiah and Ezekiel, who were both highly predictive. All of the Old testament prophets were predictive.”

    At the time, many weren’t predictive. They were reinterpreted after the coming of Christ.

    eg

    Isaiah 7:14

    14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[c] a sign: The virgin[d] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[e] will call him Immanuel.[f]

    The rest of Isaiah the passage is clearly not about Jesus.

    15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”

    This was not considered a messianic passage until Christians reinterpreted the Old Testament.

    By and large the prophets wrote mainly about their own times and what was happening in their world eg Nathan calling David to account.

    Even Daniel’s prophecy about the beast was representing the four kingdoms who had gone before.

    But yeah you’re right Pentecostal prophecy is different.

    No one would kill a Pentecostal prophet.

  62. Yes, Greg, you need something liminal before the subliminal takes over!

    I mean, you wouldn’t like some of the following remarks, from this thread alone, to slip out in the course of your discourse:

    ‘Your other comments are just crap- so go blow it out your arse

    when the catch the fire dickhead was on here we roasted him!

    why wouldn’t I research Ian and his claims….for f**ks sake people!

    Ian’s modus operandi is to dump his nut bag stuff until people get sick of him

    Or maybe that’s how you speak and preach in church. Who knows?

  63. Bones,
    I was not kidding.
    The mother of my Dog,’a stafford shire cross red cattle that had intercourse with a thoroughbred racing whippet hound’ is my DOG.

  64. btw I didn’t put up those C3 clips to attack C3. There is no C3 anywhere near me so it’s fairly irrelevant. Also just because you’re in an organisation doesn’t make you accountable for your leaders. I think it’s unfair to make people answer for what their leaders do. And you are subject to your authority.

    I mean I ministered under Archbishop Hollingsworth who I didn’t particularly like much and I didn’t agree with him but I wouldn’t tell anyone that.

    But my ministry in my church was about more than what he was doing and church structures don’t operate through blogs or letters to the editor.

    So in other words as far as I’m concerned whatever Phil does in Sydney or wherever it is has no bearing on your ministry nor are you answerable for him.

  65. Bones,
    At the time, many weren’t predictive. They were reinterpreted after the coming of Christ.

    Let’s see. Where does one begin with this statement?

    At the time!
    You mean they didn’t take place at the time, or they only took place after someone said, look the prediction happened!

    They weren’t predictive!
    Yet they predicted future events, which were identified after they took place, but, crucially, because they did take place, which is the evidence of prophecy fulfilled!

    But if someone prophesied an event which didn’t take place you would call them a false prophet, who, under the Old Testament, would have been liable to the death penalty.

    They were reinterpreted
    So they had some other interpretation, but, when they actually took place as predicted, they were interpreted again.

    So what was the first interpretation, and how was it different to the outcome?

    If the first interpretation didn’t come to pass, was it then a false prophecy?

    By and large the prophets wrote mainly about their own times and what was happening in their world eg Nathan calling David to account.

    Well there is no book of Nathan, but he was a prophet, so did he speak of future events to David?

    “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” According to all these words and according to all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

    So you’re snared by your own words, again, Bones. Nathan himself prophecies the future to David even after he has told him of his great sin.

    And you consider the prediction of the virgin birth to not be relevant prophecy?

    God told Mary He would be Immanuel. Do you know what the name means? ‘God with Us’.

    And what of the accompanying verse which refers to the birth of Christ?

    Isaiah 9
    6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    And would you care to explain Isaiah 53?

    Or 61:1-2?

    There are a great many others we could discuss, but if you can give an Isaiah contemporary slant to these it would help.

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds…

    And you should read the following form Peter very, very carefully…

    Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

    To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven–things which angels desire to look into.
    1 Peter 1:10-12

  66. My comment got lost. I said to Steve that Bones’s explanation seemed fair enough. You will probably be able to discourse a lot better if you take the way Bones argues differently.

  67. Q,
    Bones is arguing that prophecy isn’t predictive but contemporary and based on justice issues.

    He uses Isaah and Ezekiel as his examples.

    yet it is as clear as day that they are predictive.

    They did address justice issues, of course, and used imagery which was relative to their worldview.

    But there is no doubt they were predictive.

    Bones needs prophecy to be non-redictive to prove for himself that Revelation is not predictive, but only addresses contemporary issues to the first century Church.

    He cannot possibly succeed with this, and i am wondering why he is bothering to pursue it, because I have so much evidence that the prophets of the Old Testament wee predictive as well as addressing contemporary issues that we could be here a long time if Bones refuses to let the bone go!

  68. Unfulfilled prophecies that weren’t

    This section is for alleged prophecies alluded to that were never made or that were not intended to be prophetic.

    Virgin birth
    Main article: Virgin birth
    Matthew alleges that Jesus’ birth fulfilled a prophecy. Per Matthew 1:22-23 :
    All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”—which means, “God with us.” (NIV)
    Did this fulfill an Old Testament prophecy? Let’s examine the context of the original verse in the Book of Isaiah. King Ahaz of Judah is concerned about aggression from the kings of Aram and Israel and he gets some advice from a prophet. Per Isaiah 7:14-16:
    Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. (NIV)
    Could this passage have been intended to refer to Jesus? It appears merely to be about people living at the time, and in fact in Isaiah 8:3 a male child is born. Jesus was called Immanuel, which means God with us. To support the claim that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy it would be necessary to demonstrate that he was born of a virgin, and the only evidence that this occurred is in the statements of Matthew and Luke, because they were the only two that said anything about his birth.
    Additionally, this prophecy is debatably based on a possible mistranslation from Hebrew. As the Biblical inerrancy site 100propchecies.org explains:
    [Non-Christian scholars] have challenged the interpretation for the Hebrew word “almah,” which is often translated as “virgin,” but they think it means “young maiden.” It may be true that “almah” means “young maiden,” however, the Bible never uses the word to refer specifically to a married woman. And an unmarried woman if found to be pregnant and engaged, as Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, would be stoned to death. [10]
    In reality, with the exception of the Young’s Literal Translation version, the New King James Version, and the English Standard Version neither is it remotely true that every instance of “almah” in the Bible is translated as “virgin.” [11] Proverbs 3:18-19 in particular is translated, in the New International Version, as follows:
    There are three things that are too amazing for me, four that I do not understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a maiden.
    It would seem problematic to substitute “virgin” in this case. At least to the observer who just takes one verse and reads it out of context.
    The messiah will be born in Bethlehem
    Matthew alleges that Jesus being born in Bethlehem fulfills a prophecy. In Matthew 2:4-6 King Herod is concerned about the birth of the “King of the Jews.”
    When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born. “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, “for this is what the prophet has written: ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'” (NIV)
    While the quote from the prophet, Micah, appears to predict Jesus will come from the city of Bethlehem, he was not quoted precisely. Micah 5:2 actually reads:
    But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. (NIV)
    The original quote makes it clear that Micah was referring to a clan named Bethlehem and not a city.
    The Micah quote has also been taken out of context, originally showing no indication of being a messianic prophecy and referring to a military leader who will “deliver us from the Assyrian when he invades our land.” (v. 6)
    Additionally there is no evidence outside the statements of Matthew and Luke that Jesus was in fact born in Bethlehem, and even they do not agree on the details. Luke has Joseph and Mary in Bethlehem from Nazareth for the dubious reason of partaking in a census in 6 CE, while Matthew has them starting in Bethlehem and escaping to Nazareth by way of Egypt at least ten years earlier.
    [edit]Jesus will be a Nazarene
    In the Bible, Jesus is born in Bethlehem but grows up in Nazareth. Matthew credits the Nazareth upbringing as a fullfilment of prophecy:
    Matt. 2:23 And [Mary, Joseph, and Jesus] came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, that he should be called a Nazarene.
    Unlike most of the other “prophecies” in this category, we can’t even tell which Old Testament passage, if any, Matthew is twisting to fit the story; no OT prophecy seems relevant. It’s almost as if he’s just flat-out declaring that this was prophecied and hoping no one calls his bluff. Of course, even this one is’t too big a stone for apologists to swallow. As web page dedicated to this particular problem puts it: “First, it is necessary to point out that a genuine textual problem only exists if one has exhausted every possibility of interpretation, and there simply is no reasonable explanation that resolves the difficulty.”
    The most popular Christian explanation is that “Nazarene” is a figurative expression for anyone who is despised or rejected, as Jesus is at various points in the New Testament and the Messiah at various points in the old. Not only is that a heck of a cop-out, but if it’s Matthew’s intention, then it makes little sense for him to say that Jesus moving to a literal Nazareth is a fulfillment of the “figurative Nazarene” prophecy. A likelier possibility, and one which makes the author of Matthew look less dishonest and/or stupid, is that “the prophets” doesn’t mean the Old Testament authors, but some other person or group of people, or an oral tradition. Of course, in that instance the case for a “fulfilled prophecy” is left empty-handed (and it’s a catch-all excuse for similar failures).
    [edit]Jesus will be called out of Egypt
    Matthew 2:15 cites Jesus’ return from Egypt as being the fulfillment of a prophecy: “And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘Out of Egypt I called my son.'” In a footnote the NIV translation indicates the source is Hosea 11:1:
    When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
    Note that the quote as it appears in Matthew is incomplete. The first part, the reference to Israel, is missing. In fact, the passage in Hosea is not a prophecy of Jesus leaving Egypt but rather a reference to the exodus of the Israelites.
    In defense of the claim that Matthew gave an incomplete quote to hide the fact that Hosea was not intended as a prophecy, biblical inerrancy site AboutBibleProphecy.com notes, “Matthew wasn’t trying to hide anything, he was trying to show that the life of Jesus had many parallels with the history of the Jewish people.” [12] It should be noted, however, that per Matthew’s own words he in fact intended to show that the words of “the prophet” were “fulfilled” and not to show a parallel.
    It should also be noted that among the gospel accounts the journey of Jesus to Egypt is unique in Matthew.
    [edit]Jesus will be pierced
    John 19:37 claims that Jesus being pierced in the course of his execution fulfills a prophecy: “and, as another scripture says, ‘They will look on the one they have pierced.'” The NIV translation in a footnote indicates the source of this prophecy is Zechariah 12:10:
    And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. (NIV)
    The first observation to make is that the verse in John is an inaccurate quote, leaving out the word “me.” This is to alleviate inconsistencies with the one speaking, presumably John, also being the one pierced, claimed to be Jesus. In fact, this relates to the problem inherent in assuming the verse from John refers to Jesus–that the “me” who is pierced cannot be the same as the “him” who is mourned for.
    Also the context of Zechariah 12 is of an invading army and is not intended as a prophecy of Jesus.
    [edit]The suffering servant
    Main article: Fourth Servant Song
    The Fourth Servant Song, Isaiah 52:13-53:12, is frequently referred to in the New Testament as being the source of prophecies allegedly fulfilled therein. Although many Christian scholars maintain the author had foreshadowed Jesus’ crucifixion, other (especially Jewish) scholars maintain that he had meant instead to refer to the mistreatment of the nation of Israel.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies

    Isaiah 53
    This is a verse that refers to past events, specifically the birth and reign of Hezekiah.

  69. “Bones needs prophecy to be non-redictive to prove for himself that Revelation is not predictive, but only addresses contemporary issues to the first century Church.”

    No I don’t.

    Revelation is clearly based in the first century. None of it is an accurate portrayal of future events.

    My contention is that most of what passes for prophecy is nothing like biblical prophecy. The vast majority of prophetic writings are based either in the prophet’s contemporary world or past interpretations of historical events.

    Whereas what passes as Christian prophecy today nearly always refers to future events (and usually not worth getting killed over).

  70. Bones,
    Unfulfilled prophecies that weren’t

    *Sigh*

    Revelation is clearly based in the first century. None of it is an accurate portrayal of future events.

    Dear Lord help us!

  71. OK, Bones. OK!

    When will you be throwing your Bible into the fire, then? I seems pointless keeping it, really.

  72. Greg – God ordained the foolishness of preaching, therefore you will preach foolishness until you wake up to what Isaiah meant by here a little, there a little, that you may be snared and go backwards an fall. The Holy Spirit is our personal Midrash.

    12. “Amen, amen, I am telling you, that whoever believes in me, these works that I do, they will also do; and that greater than these they will do, [now] that I go to the Father.
    13. “And whatever you ask through my name, I will do for you, so that the Father is glorified through the Son.
    14. “And if you ask me in my name, I will do it.
    15. “If you love me, observe my commandments.
    16. “And I will request it of my Father and another Advocate he will send you, who will be with you forever.
    17. “The Spirit of Truth, (whom) the world could not receive because they could not see or know Him. But you know Him, for He lives among you and through you is manifested.

    Its a miracle you guys even claim to believe Jesus!

  73. From the Prophet Isaiah, and the Word of the Lord this Sunday morning to you:
    7. They also went astray because of wine
    and went astray because of liquor;
    the high priest and the prophet went astray because of liquor.
    They imbibed the liquor.
    They were shaken because of the liquor.
    They went astray because of drunkenness.
    They ate extravagantly.
    8. Because all the altars became full of the apostasy and vomit of the natives (inhabitants).
    9. To whom shall be taught the knowledge?
    And to whom shall be the schooling, that which is heard?
    To those who are weaned from milk and freed from the bread?
    10. Because vomit is upon vomit, and vomit upon vomit,
    and apostasy is upon apostasy, and apostasy upon apostasy,
    a little here and a little there.
    11. Because with incomprehensible speech
    and in another tongue they shall speak to them, to the people here.
    12. Whereas it would be said to them, “This here is my rest for you;
    rest then, you afflicted ones.”
    But they shall be quiet and would not listen.
    13. And the manifestation of Maryah* shall be upon them,
    apostasy upon apostasy and apostasy upon apostasy,
    and vomit upon vomit and vomit upon vomit;
    a little here and a little there,
    so as they may return and become enveloped behind them,
    and they shall be broken, hunted down and captured.
    14. Because of that they shall hear the oracles of Maryah,
    these men, the ridiculers,
    the authorities of the people here in Jerusalem,

  74. One last story, for what it is worth. If you don’t get the message in this, then basically you can go to Gehenna for all I care. Do not call me Racah, please, I would not want to stumble you.

    About 12yrs ago, the Lord said to phone Willem Bellaard, a man of God, who was based in Noosa. He asked why i called and I said i did not know, just the the Holy Spirit said to call. He handed the phone to someone he knew who he had encountered just as he was answering the call. The other guy asked what this was alol about and I said, “Dunno, HS said call, so I called”.

    He asked me who I was, what i did, and I told him I was Jeweller – a pause – he gasped – “A Christian Jeweller?” and I said yes.

    He told me how that he and a friend had been in prayer and the Holy Spirit had told them that they needed the revelation of the Seven Facet Jewel or diadem of Jeremiah (and of Revelation) – the Seven Spirits of God.

    I had not heard of such a thing but promised to search it out if I could and to let him know. Willem had told me about this guy and said that he liked his pot. I went homeand looked up my copy of Bruton’s, the “Diamond Bible” and found no such thing as a seven facet jewel. I quipped, “Man[‘s been smokin’ too much pot of standing too close to the solvents” and the Lord rebuked me and said, “You told that man you would look, and you have not looked far enough!” It was a stern rebuke – as in a spiritual kick up the bum. I repented and asked where to look and was prompted to look at a book which had been gifted to me recently – it was kind of the Jeweller’s Bible by Oppi Utrecht.

    I opened it at and lo and behold, there in front of me was a schematic of a triangular seven facet jewel, and the Lord quickened to me the vision I had been shown of His nature in my back yard in 1983.

    The process of discovery has continued since then, but one thing I have learned more than anything out of this is to judge another’s revelation by comparing it with your own is not wise, in fact, it is very foolish and there is nothing you guys can say or do which I have not been through myself.

    And Bones – if you cannot see that the Rortshields, Rockefeller and the Royals have got enough money to end world poverty forever, then you are blind. But they don’t want the poor, or the halt, or the lame, the useless eaters as they call them.

    And Greg, I would never presume to call any of you to be not Christian nor unworthy – simply unfit.

    As to the Apostasy, yes it precedes the END OF DAYS VIVAL.

    The nature of this apostasy is more than evident here in this forum – everyone has their own opinion but none of you have the Mind of Christ – even “Put the boot in” Steve – so disappointed in you mate – but being misunderstood and alone is the price for following Jesus – you will all be brought up to speed someday, but for now it is to you line upon line….

  75. 20 Do you remember what I told you? ‘A slave is not greater than the master.’ Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you.

  76. Here’s some more (censored) on the Revelation and the Rapture!

    ( Removed by request from the Artist )

    I guess this demonstrates why he probably didn’t make the audition for worship leader at C3!

  77. I don’t understand the hostility against Ian.
    He’s basically always just shared his experience and opinions and I don’t sense any malice in him at all.

  78. When we are all ripe and ready, the Lord shall call from heaven with a shout and we will be gone – out of here – but don’t think you get to escape the tribulation except through death. I told you, I have been shown visions of whole churches wiped out – fear the Lord – I mean it – it is going to get very hard and very dark – ask Him to show you so that your lamp may be filled by with Holy Spirit and so that you do not have to go to those who sell oil….

    I know a lot of what I say is hard to hear, and some people twist it to their own detriment, but all I am saying at the end of the day is LET GOD’S WILL BE DONE. Aa-meen?

  79. So Steve why do you think the prophets were killed?

    The same reason that MLK and Romero were assassinated and Tutu had death threats.

    It sure as heck wasn’t because they were predicting future events.

    I don’t think anyone would be really bothered if I predicted there’ll be revival in 2015.

    I mean look at Ian.

    Is anyone out to kill him?

  80. Why was John the Baptist killed?

    Not because He predicted Jesus’s ministry.

    Which John would have known about since he was born, growing up with Jesus and being actual cousins.

  81. Birds of a feather flocking together there.

    Thieves in Mike Murdoch, Benny Hinn and the false prophet.

    So prophets can tell you your bank account number.

    EYES that is a perfect example of the triteness and duplicity of what passes for Christian prophecy.

  82. Jeremiah 14

    4 Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries[a] and the delusions of their own minds.

  83. Now Greg – you have twisted what I said – God told me NOT to try and contact him – He did not tell me not to speak of it – but He has kept me from contact with the man, even though he was once a client of mine. You could try contacting Christchurch Public Hospital and ask them if a young man, about 27 if memory serves, was run down while exiting a manhole in Ferry Road, at 6am on a Monday morning, and who after two weeks in intensive care, walked out completely healed from other wise mortal injuries. Now if I am lying, why would I volunteer such concise information.

    Now the BIG mistake you make is to ACCUSE me of being a liar – that is not wise sir, and is in fact the grossest presumption – I may be many things but I am no liar. I would not dare to lie about such matters, heaven forbid that i should stoop so low and for what, do you think I like arguing the toss with people who have not had such experiences in God as I have been graced to? Dear God man, you must be carrying some hurt or something.

    One of these days i might get off my bum and go and search the archives at the Christchurch Press, but instead I simply asked God when the time is right to hook me back up with this young man, who I guess would be in his late 30’s – he will probably be released when he is about 40. This guy is something special, which is why God keeps jerks like Greg and me from knowing who he is. You have no idea what a deep work God has done in this young man. I really do not mean to stumble you Greg and in your ignorance God will forgive you, but if you persist, you will find that He will correct you – so for your own sake simply agree with me that whoseover needs to hear whatsover will and that by the Spirit of Almighty God, so be it! I am open for correction, but are you?

    I will tell you why men have trouble hearing the Spirit – it is because the Holy Spirit is literally the feminine voice of God – in the Aramaic it is always rendered in the feminine gender. Male and Female made He them, in His image. God has a female image – she is called the Spirit. And guess what? If you won’t listen to your wife, do you think you will regard the Spirit?

    And just for your information Greg, now I am really going to wind you up – I have had an amazing record of healing and answered prayer that most people would dream of – and guess what Greg? What really gets on your goat is that God would use me and not you – to wit – you are actually envious so you dispute what i say out of hand and you accuse me of being a demonized liar or crazy person and you don’t even know me, not have you ever met me?

    Come on guys – do not resort to accusations – you know who the accuser of the brethren is, yes? And who the father of lies is, yes? And Bones – answer my question do the Royals, Rothschild and Rockefeller between them have enough money to right all the wrongs in the world and still have enough left over for a rainy day and the occasional Big Mac?

    (Actually they have more sense than to eat the shit they con idiots into consuming…)

    Of course they do, and they are the very reason why we have world poverty your jerk! The poor are poor BECAUSE the rich are rich – and the rich do not give a damn for the poor. We are in the last phases of a classic Empire collapse – the agglomeration of wealth and power in the hands of a few, trouble is this time it is the Neo-Nazi New Aristocrats who have the Guillotines – speaking of witch, what is with Julia Guillotine? You Aussies voted for her? Oh, that’s right, you voted for that nice bloke Kevin Rudd – he seemed like a decent bloke for a Politician – until Julia nailed him. So now you have a lesbian satanist she witch for a PM – so it is true, that God gives us leaders after a nation’s own heart….

  84. Bones,
    $52 for a seasonal change.How about $1000 bucks for a thousand years of peace.

    Greg,
    The people that practice these arts but don’t claim to be christian actually make it look real.

  85. @Bones, I’d like some clarification. That article you posted about the referencing of OT prophecies to Jesus – did you agree with everything in that and are stating that it’s your opinion, or was it more like a “what you do you think of this”?

  86. Re the 52 by 52 video, I believe in God blessing people materially.
    No problem with that at all. I have no problem with people talking about the favor of God and that it can include financial blessing and provision.

    The great tragedy of the charismatics is that there’s always someone out there telling people to give to them or to the ministry they’re doing the offering appeal for. Even if it’s an appeal for giving to the poor or something, it’s always through their ministry – and often they get a book for it which ends up profitable for the minister because they get the royalties.

    I’d love to see more charismatics encouraging people to give – to the poor, to the needy relative, to the tsunami victim.

    Why give to the ministry of the guy who’s got more real estate than he knows what to do with.

    But anyway, God loves a cheerful giver. It’s great to give. But giving doesn’t have to be to the rich minister for his second jet.

    By the same token, i think there are better things to give to than the restoration of a steeple or a stained glass window or a million dollar pipe organ.

    But that’s just one man’s opinion.

  87. Okay that manasseh one about the Stephen John “word”.

    Three different viewpoints.
    1. That he knew that the man’s name was Stephen John and so was just stating information that he knew. (99.9999999999999999% likely) or 100% depending on your beliefs.
    2. God told him the name of a person
    3. He knew the name through the power of Satan.
    4. He took a really lucky guess.

    So Steve and Ian, what do you think? Do you know this guy?

    Pentecostals usually don’t claim that people can “get” people’s names, except for when they talk about William Branham.

    But he operated in the day of “prayer card” where people filled out their name and address and prayer request.
    And, most pentecostals now call him a false prophet and he was banned from AOG.

    One of my close friends who is 50 times a better Christian than me, loves Benny Hinn. Weird.

    Looking him up, Manasseh seems to be pretty hot in the pentecostal world these days.

  88. Q, its obvious that many ot verses were regarded as prophetic only afzer Jesus had lived and fulfilled them.

    Its a case of hindsight. With hindsight all prophecy can be fulfilled.

  89. But the Houston thing wasn’t doing anything other than just being entertaining. He wasn’t claiming any special power. Just making fun of the pentecostal church status quo and encouraging people to seek God.

    And his audience seemed to like it.
    As for showmanship……most public speakers use different dynamics to keep people listening.

    The singing was interesting for the “in-crowd”. Probably pretty strange for the average Joe – but Brian Houston rarely has to speak to people out of his world.

  90. @Bones. In a way you’re obviously correct. Paul spoke of the mystery of the gospel, and preached Jesus from the Old Testament.

    Obviously there were Jews who didn’t accept that the scriptures (OT) had anything to do with Jesus. And you could probably argue that when Jesus stood up in the temple and read and said today this is fulfilled, that he was “pushing it”. Which is why they tried to beat him up.

    But, what do YOU believe? Do you think that there are any OT prophecies that foretold Jesus? And if not, why do you think Jesus is special? If you are going to argue that Matthew and Luke etc were mistaken, or deceitful then maybe they were wrong about the miracles, or made them up too? Maybe the resurrection was them trying to manipulate things too? So how much credence do you give the gospel writers? And if not much, or just 80% on what basis do you believe in the divinity of Jesus and his resurrection etc?

  91. Bones,
    Its a case of hindsight. With hindsight all prophecy can be fulfilled.

    That is a ridiculous assertion, highly heretical in the circumstances, and a blanket denial of prophecy which came directly from the Throne, by the Word or by the Spirit.

    Jesus himself, the Word made flesh, was a fulfilment of prophecy on many counts.

    Again, how do you explain Isaiah 53 without the coming of the Christ and his purging, sacrifice and death on the cross? You cannot, because it only makes sense when Jesus is made the Propitiation for our sins.

    How do you explain Isaiah 61:1-2 without acknowledging that Jesus personally read out this prophecy before the synagogue and declared it fulfilled in their sight?

    That prophecy alone rips your foolish contention to shreds.

    I am appalled that you take this preposterous liberty with prophecy, especially the prophecy that came through the Old Testament prophets who often sacrificed their lives for the sake of delivering the Word of the Lord to the people He sent them to, who were set up, many times for ridicule in their time, and who were despised for the Message they were asked to declare.

    We do not live in those times, Bones.

    As I hav already pointed out, we no longer need such prophets. Now were are led by the Spirit. Each of us, who are born again, have the Holy Spirit to show us things to come.

    In Isaiah’s day the Holy spirit was only given to the prophet to stand before the people representing God, or before God representing the people, as was the case right up to John the Baptist.

    As Jesus says, “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he”.

    Jesus ushered in a new kingdom, a New Covenant. Old things were passed away. All things were made new. We no longer need the prophets who stand before God as they did in Israel.

    Now we are filled with the Spirit. We hear from God. We are the Royal Priesthood. We are all called to prophesy.

    It shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

    You are looking for the wrong theories to back up your false assumptions simply so you can deny what the Old Testament prophets stood for, and so that you can deny the Testimony of Jesus which is the Spirit of Prophecy, which reveals the resurrection; yet to come, the judgment; yet to come, and the marriage feast of the Bride; yet to come.

  92. That is not to say that I do not agree that there is the office of the Prophet under the New Covenant. Paul clearly tells us that the Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, and he reveals the constitution of the leadership ministry gifts of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher.

    But we do not need the same kind of Prophet as Israel required under the Old Testament, because, as I have said, we have the Holy Spirit to lead us. Not only this, but we all have the anointing of the Spirit, and need no man to teach us.

    Not that we don’t need teachers, in fact we’re all told that at some time we should teach others, but we are led by, guided by, and taught by the Spirit of God, so anything an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher says, instructs, leads or directs will not be outside of what is already revealed to us by the Word of God and by the Spirit.

    So under the Old Covenant a prophet might reveal a word which is revelatory, and is not discernible until the New Covenant arrives under Christ, because they dd not understand the mystery Church which was revealed under Paul’s ministry, and introduced by Jesus.

    So a New Testament prophet doesn’t reveal things which are not known already to us by the Word and Spirit. It cannot be new revelation outside of the known canon.

  93. Steve, how was Hosea 11:1 ever considered prophetic to the ot Jews.

    Granted that there were prophecies which the jews judged to be messianic which jesus fulfillrd but when the prophets wrote them they were in a different context.

  94. There are prophecies which were for the time and for the future, and some which cover both and more. You can’t stop at verse one. If you read on you will see into the future as well.

  95. Greg,
    The segment with the one who shall remain nameless is on this thread which is your own post!

    Personally I think you should leave it there until the person in question eases off his own personal attacks on people, but for the sake o his sister, who is an innocent party, has a much better voice and plays nice guitar, I think you should have mercy. The other one.

    But here’s something to consider.

    This person is crying about being exposed on a website and saying his job may be in jeopardy if he is known about the place, yet he is prepared to:

    1. anonymously attack ministries and jeopardise their livelihood, often without a shred of evidence other that innuendo, supposition and criticism derived from a different opinion of scripture rather than serious facts.

    2. point the finger at others publicly whilst pleading for mercy when his own reputation is challenged.

    3. judge people and not be prepared for judgment himself, thus attempting to defy the very scriptures, some of which I pointed out to him whilst he has taken the position has, even warning him that one day, f he kept on judging, judgment would, in turn, bite him.

    4. judge people for being unscriptural when his entire blog rejects scripture at its most foundational level.

    Anyway, I dare say you will remove the youtube clips, which, in themselves are perfectly innocent, and even quite pleasant in a churchy, Sunday evening sort of way.

    I think the person should o away and examine exactly what it is that has made him so ashamed of letting those clips stand.

    All yours!

    But rest assured, c3churchwatchwatch, the counter blog to the offending site, will be very interested in the potential of these developments.

  96. The other one.

    I started to say, the other youtube clip should be left up, but that still leaves the said person exposed by his own folly.

    He’ll keep!

  97. So Jake, if you’re lurking, which you clearly do, you’ll have to get Greg’s attention, because it’s his post and thread and I don’t have moderation rights over it.

  98. @Bones – Your questions re OT prophecy are interesting. Being able to answer them would be good study for those who want to be able to “prove from the scriptures” the deity of Christ to Jews.

    The Apostles used the OT to preach Jesus. I’m sure that there were many Jews at the time (and still are) who argue just like you.

    Perhaps your approach to OT scripture is mistaken. Because arguing that the gospel writers, Paul and the leaders of the Christian church in the first centuries (and maybe Jesus himself) were wrong in their application of OT prophetic statements puts you in a very unusual position.

  99. I worded that badly. Bones, I think that the topic is just too large to deal with here in the Corinthian 12 topic.

    But your questions are obviously super important.

    But even Isaiah 61 that Jesus is recorded as reading and then saying is fulfilled.
    In what way does he fulfill it?
    He reads to a point and then stops. So does what follows also apply to Jesus and his earthly ministry etc?
    That’s worthy of a whole sermon, or possibly a PHD.

    And it was obviously so controversial and unbelievable at the time to the people who were there.

    Suffice it to say that the Apostles saw Jesus everywhere in the OT whereas the Jews didn’t and don’t.
    So, maybe it’s a spiritual thing?

  100. I didnt know there was a c3churchwatchwatch blog.

    Makes me think of starting a c3churchwatchwatchwatch blog

  101. Wazza,
    I said something like that in the c3churchwatchwatch Blog.
    Did you know that if you say, watchwatchwatchwatchwatchwatchwatchwatchwatchwatchwatchwatchwatch, really fast, you sound like a helicopter?

  102. Bones,
    Just some ideas for your new book, REVELATIONS 2.

    1 The revelation from Bones, which Bones gave Bones to show Bones’s Bones what must soon take place. He (Bones) made it known by sending his Bones to his servant Bones, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of Bones and the testimony of Bones. 3 Blessed is the Bones who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are Bones who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the Bones is near.

    Greetings and Bonesology

    4 Bones,

    To the seven Bones in the province of Bones:

    Grace and Bones to you from Bones who is, and who was, and Bones is to come, and from the seven Bones before his throne, 5 and from Bones, who is the faithful Bones, the firstbone from the dead, and the ruler of the FUNNYBONES of the Bones.

    To Bones who loves us and has freed us from our Bones by his Bones, 6 and has made Bones to be a kingdom and priests to serve his Bones and Bonifides—to Bones be glory and power for ever and ever! AyBones?

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