John Mellor, Evangelist, healer?


JOHN MELLOR coming to Newcastle!

John Mellor, Australia’s international healing evangelist, is coming to town. Each week, John sees blind eyes open, cripples walk, pain leave bodies and the sick regain their health. He will be coming to Life Church from 22nd to 24th March 2013. As well as holding public Healing Meetings to pray for the sick, he will be presenting a teaching seminar on miracles and healing. John’s teaching is biblically sound and characterised by his down-to-earth style and humour.

Why attend the seminar?

Did you know that God doesn’t always heal people instantly? The seminar will teach you the different ways that God heals.

Do you know what the blockages are to receiving healing? The seminar will teach you what the main barriers are and how to deal with them.

Did you know that people can lose their healing? Come to the seminar and learn how to keep your healing.

Do you know how to pray for the sick? Come and lean how, and receive impartation of the healing gift from John.

Who should attend?

Ministers, church leaders, prayer teams, those who want to learn more about healing, those who are seeking healing and those who would like to pray for the sick, as well as the curious and sceptics, will all be enriched and encouraged by John’s teaching and ministry.

 HEALING MEETINGS AND SEMINAR

FRIDAY 22ND MARCH

Healing Meeting @ 7:00pm

At Life Church, Cnr Hunter & Watt Streets, Newcastle

SATURDAY 23RD MARCH

Healing Seminar 1:30pm to 5:30pm

Cost: $25.00 which can be paid at the door

At Life Church, Cnr Hunter & Watt Streets, Newcastle

SUNDAY 24TH MARCH

Healing Meeting at 9:30am

At Life Church, Cnr Hunter & Watt Streets, Newcastle

SUNDAY 24TH MARCH

Combined Church Healing Meeting at 5:00pm

At C3 Church, 4 Lingard Street, Merewether

For more information on John Mellor and for testimonies go to www.johnmellor.org

Kevin Wilcock
Team Leader Life Church
Cnr Hunter & Watt Streets
NEWCASTLE   NSW   2300

Email:  info@lifechurch.org.au
Mobile: 0407 *** ***
Web:  www.lifechurch.org.au

From the Ipswhich Times

  • Chris Garry
  • 20th Jul 2009 10:02 AM

Faith healer, John Mellor, dares sceptics to come to his show.

Faith healer, John Mellor, dares sceptics to come to his show. Sarah Keayes

A WORLD famous faith healer who claims to cure the blind, sick and paralysed will visit Ipswich.

John Mellor will pay his fifth visit to Ipswich in October and dares any sceptic to attend his show and see his power for themselves.

Mr Mellor, who has been the subject of several interviews from news programs Today Tonight and A Current Affair, said he was aware many people believe he is a fraud.

“A lot of people don’t believe it until they see it,” Mr Mellor said.

“Reporters have tried to set me up before because they think I’m fake but I have even healed them.”

Ipswich resident Marie Roberts is one of Mr Mellor’s followers.

She claims to have been healed from severe back pain and multiple sclerosis when Mr Mellor conducted a healing service at Brothers Leagues Club in 2003.

What is most interesting about Mrs Roberts’ experience is that she was not even at the show, she was playing the pokies.

“I was quite sick and frail at the time and could not walk well,” she said.

“I was playing the pokies one minute and the next I fell over flat on my back.

“I was taken to the hospital and after lying in bed for a while I got up and I could walk perfectly fine. It was amazing.

“I felt great for the first time in years and I had no idea why.”

It turns out Mrs Roberts’ friend was being healed by Mr Mellor and had asked him to pray for Mrs Roberts.

Mr Mellor said he discovered his talents in remote outback Australia

He was working with an Aboriginal tribe when he decided, as a last resort to place his hands on a sick woman and pray for her.

As you may have guessed she was, according to Mr Mellor, soon healed.


Greg the Explorer:  Well, I don’t know what to make of this guy – I don;t believe that people with MS and Cancer etc get healed…I just don’t belive that…yet here we have a lady who was not even in the same room as John Mellor who had MS and now claims she doesn’t.  I don’t know what to make of that.

What I do have issue with is the stuff in his advertising brochure:

Did you know that people can lose their healing? Come to the seminar and learn how to keep your healing.

Do you know how to pray for the sick? Come and lean how, and receive impartation of the healing gift from John.

That is crap – out and out crap – there is no imparting of a gift other than through the Holy Spirit…yes by the laying on of hands sometimes, but mostly by direct impartation I would ahve thought.  The other thing is this whole BS of losing your healing – what a lot of crap, another way of saying, hey – its not that I’m a crap phony liar and your healing was purely placebo effect – you did something to lose your healing.  Way to lay the blame on someone else John.

And charging $25 to come along and get healing?  What?  Any of that claimable on medicare?


207 thoughts on “John Mellor, Evangelist, healer?

  1. “Annointings,” “impartations,” “Passing on the Mantle…” Not scriptural, not true – another attempt to try to make a commercial venture out of God’s gifts.

    Some shysters had a $10 chair and a $100 chair. and would ask the hurt, desperate, suffering people “How much do you want this healing? How much is your health worth?” Just like today’s doctors…

    The Bible tells me that “Believers will lay hands on the sick, and they SHALL recover” I don’t see anywhere that it says “You will heal the sick AFTER you receive impartation of the healing gift from John Mellor”

    “By His stripes you were healed” Not by some mystical, gnostic impartation

  2. The Healing Meetings are free (Friday/Sunday).

    The Seminar is to train workers and there was a charge of $25 (Saturday).

    Simple really.

    Skeptics always look at the negative angle. No one is being charged for being healed!

  3. Joe Takacs,
    Some shysters had a $10 chair and a $100 chair. and would ask the hurt, desperate, suffering people “How much do you want this healing? How much is your health worth?” Just like today’s doctors…

    At John Mellor’s meetings? I doubt it very much.

    Can you qualify who you are talking about? It’s not John I’m sure.

    John has had healings featured in the media in Australia and UK.

  4. John, a former school-teacher and pastor to Aboriginal communities, lost literally everything in the Katherine floods. He left to travel, and, after about 18 months recovering from his loss, was asked to speak in a small church in Scotland, where people started to receive outstanding healings, and has been travelling ever since. Was featured in several UK newspapers after reports of amazing things happening in meetings. Pleasant, unassuming man. Loves Jesus. Prays for sick people. Owns nothing to my knowledge. I don’t think he even has a car.

  5. From a not John Mellor fan

    “I would suggest a legal accreditation system for these people. In most modern countries, doctors and nurses have to be certified and fully trained – if faith healers and psychics and the like also claim to be capable of healing the sick and curing the blind, logically they should be subject to some form of legal control also. If I turned round and claimed to be a pilot, but had no pilot’s license or relevant accreditation, I would not be allowed near the controls of a plane, for obvious reasons; obviously, this is an extreme example, but the principle still stands. If these people want to be able to claim that they can do these things, and are going to sell books and ‘accept donations’ for doing so, let them prove their abilities in laboratory conditions. If John Mellor can prove that he can cure cancer under these conditions, he is entitled to every penny; if not, he is a fraud and/or a lunatic, and needs to bugger off and sit in a quiet room somewhere.

    And there is no defence in the old line of ‘but you don’t know everything – you should be more open-minded’. The burden of proof lies with the person claiming, not his audience. If I told you I have in my possession one of Abe Lincoln’s baby teeth or Winston Churchill’s favourite brandy glass, you would automatically demand proof, as these are bloody unlikely items for me to possess. If I showed them to you, you would be satisfied; if I replied that in fact you had to prove that I don’t have them, you would think I was f**king mental. If Mellor and his ilk want to accept money while advertising his ability to cure cancer, then logically he must prove this ability.

    Sorry for the rant, but this kind of thing pisses me off no end, as it gives the majority of Christians, who are well-meaning and sensible people, a bad name, and provides militant atheists with more ‘proof’ that organised religion is reprehensible. This is why I say: Go to hell, John Mellor.”

    http://morpheus429.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/go-to-hell-john-mellor/

  6. From some not Peter, James and John fans:

    Acts
    4:1 ¶ Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them,
    2 being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
    3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening.
    4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
    5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes,
    6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
    7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”
    8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:
    9 “If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well,
    10 “let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
    11 “This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’
    12 “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
    13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.
    14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.
    15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,
    16 saying, “What shall we do to these men? For, indeed, that a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all who dwell in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.
    17 “But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threaten them, that from now on they speak to no man in this name.”
    18 And they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
    19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge.
    20 “For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.”
    21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way of punishing them, because of the people, since they all glorified God for what had been done.

    Goodness! Critics everywhere. And they didn’t even have google!

  7. Did Peter, James and John ask for money for healing?

    That’s what the article I put up was about. Nothing at all wrong with praying for the sick.

    If you want to get money from healing then you should have your claims verified and accredited.

    Is there a problem with that? Don’t we want to get rid of the frauds?

  8. I mean you could use that verse in support of Benny Hinn as well.

    And thankfully we do have google.

    Makes it harder for these sheisters to get away with it.

  9. Where does it say anyone was charged for healing? Greg either made that up or misread the promo, or both.

    The charge was for the training seminar. Standard practice for a Saturday meeting.

    The Healing Meetings were free.

    You have created, once again, a controversy which doesn’t exist and now you will carve your initials into it.

  10. Not so sure about this

    “Keeping your Healing

    It is not uncommon for people who receive healing to sometimes face a battle to “keep the healing” later. Don’t be astonished if after some weeks or months, or even the next morning, you sense some of the symptoms trying to creep back. While this may shake your faith, this isn’t the time to be upset or disappointed but rather, it is the time to fight! Tell the condition to go because it has no mastery over you and refuse to return to an “ill mindset”. Don’t forget to stay in prayer, read and meditate on the Word and be among a community of faith-filled believing Christians.”

    http://www.johnmellor.org/frequently_asked_questions.html

  11. Bones,
    From a not John Mellor fan

    Ha Ha. The guy ‘Morpheus’ created the entire blog and slammed down the rant on the basis of one flyer! He’s never otherwise heard of John Mellor, or been to a meeting, is an atheist liberal, and hates Jesus!

    And you want your analysis to be taken seriously?

    Barrel. Scrape. Bottom.

  12. The article wasn’t atheistic. It was skeptical at worse.

    So you don’t think faith healers who ask for donations and sell merchandise on healing should have their healings verified?

    I like it.

    I can understand why some won’t.

  13. If someone claims to be a healer then their claims should be verified. It’s not up to me to prove he didn’t heal. That’s trying to prove a negative and stupid.

    The whole idea of ‘losing your healing’ and ‘blockages to healing’ cause me to have warning signs.

    That seems to me to be casting the blame of so-called healings or non-healings onto the victim.

    eg the comments on the video below.

    “Hope and love are fine. False & dangerous claims about the ability to heal are not. I saw John Mellor attempt to heal many people at a service in the UK. No-one was healed in any demonstrable way.

    I went to see John Mellor at a healing service in England. Someone went up to the front with cerebral palsy & left after the service with, Yup you guessed it, cerebral palsy. The same happened with broken legs and other clear physical ailments. How long will he be allowed to get away with it?”

  14. Wherever possible healings should be verified, I agree. No harm in that. We always asked people to confirm if they could, especially with a doctor’s report, even better. But not all doctors are willing to go along with the fact that there may have been divine intervention involved, although some we have been involved with are glad of any means of healing, since it is, first of all, about patient care, not proof of authenticity of a ministry.

    I prefer people to be honest about whether they are really healed or not, and to resist faking things or having a presumptuous belief they will be fixed up. Can you lose your healing? Hmm! I have mixed feelings about that one.

    But how do you verify deliverance medically?

  15. ACA! Are you being serious? Do they have a doctor’s note to operate? I thought you were looking for authenticity!

  16. “Can you lose your healing? Hmm! I have mixed feelings about that one.”

    We agree!

    “But how do you verify deliverance medically?”

    Doctor’s reports obviously.

    A crew followed some of Benny Hinn’s claimed miracles around months after they were allegedly healed and they ended up worse (thought they were healed and refused treatment) or dead.

  17. “ACA! Are you being serious? Do they have a doctor’s note to operate? I thought you were looking for authenticity!”

    I can’t hear what the video was saying because my sound card is playing up.

    I posted the link for the comments not so much the video. So I don’t really know what light ACA painted him in.

  18. Bones,
    Doctor’s reports obviously.

    So, in view of the Data Protection Act 1998 (in UK), and Privacy Act (Australian States & Territories), etc, how do you propose to relate people’s personal medical details to people like… you?

    Do you think a self-respecting GP is going to release these kind of details to someone like, say, Lance White, or Jake Elliott or Daniel Gorter, or Greg the Explorer or Zorro the Whosover to scratch around in?

    Not only will they not, they are obliged, by law, to respect the confidentiality of their clients.

    Good luck with that! I think some people are both barking up the wrong tree, but unaware of legislation.

  19. Even charging people to learn to heal is bulkshit Steve. Simon the sorcerer wanted to pay to get an ‘impartation’ and was given very short thrift.

    18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

    20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

    I’m not carving my initials into anything that isn’t already there Steve. The minute money is charged for the gifts of god (or teaching…do you charge people to come hear you preach on Sunday?) there is the smell of Simony!

  20. Don’t be silly, Greg. This is nothing to do with simony. No one’s selling the Holy Spirit. It’s a training seminar!

    Nice to see you use scripture, but when you do, please use it in context.

    Sometimes churches hold seminars which teach a certain subject and have a small entry charge to cover supper or lunch, or the hire of a building, or to give an honorarium to the speaker. If the church has organised it, as I suspect, it has nothing to do with the speaker.
    No one is forced to pay a cent.

    You’re making mountains out of molehills and misquoting scripture.

    How are you paid to conduct your work for the charity organisation you are employed by? Does the money fall out of trees? Or does your organisation raise funds somehow to pay your salary? Who provides the money? Donors?

    Perhaps you do your Christian work for nothing.

    I know that is the expectation for some skinflint Christians. At the beginning of my walk, because I had certain skills with graphics, signage and music, mature Christians had me traipsing all over the place taking advantage of my good will and freshness as a believer willing to please, doing freebies for them. Some of them ran profitable businesses.

    My wife nearly left me over it because I was spending so much time saving them money by not having to pay a tradesman, by good heartedly doing all their jobs for nothing that we were almost made destitute.

    In the end I had to phone people and say I had to start charging them to support my family. They went off at me and lectured me for not serving the Lord. Can you believe that? One ‘elder’ was sent around to ‘comfort’ me and persuade me to serve the Lord better!

    When I said to some people they should pay me a decent rate or I couldn’t do their jobs for them, they dropped us altogether and never got in touch again. So much for setting the example. Cheapskate professional leaches. Called themselves Christian, and refused to assist a struggling young family by paying their way like normal human beings.

    And here you are putting out the same bunkum.

    If the man is worthy of his labour, pay him double.

    You want scripture?

    1 Timothy 5
    17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.
    18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

  21. Away with your crass refusal to be generous and thankful.

    Thank God there are people in the Body who are actually willing to part with some of their hard-earned to support those who are called to full-time ministry. God will reward them in due season.

    You keep your money, Greg. Stash it away for a rainy day. Put it in your pocket, your wallet, your bank account. Don’t give John Mellor one red cent. Why should you? But, then, why should you complain if others choose to when you do not?

    I think supporting God-ordained ministries is a way of storing up treasure in heaven. When we help maintain a good ministry gift by sowing towards their needs we invest in God’s work.

    You don’t have to support an evangelist you don’t believe in or trust or agree with. It is entirely up to you who you support in ministry, and I’m sure you do support someone other than yourself.

    But when you charge someone with simony because some church he serves adds a door-fee to a seminar they invited him to teach, you are being less than generous.

    Do you pray that your income will be maintained by the kind-heartedness of your supporters? I hope so. They keep you and your family and your ministry going as stewards in God’s household. They are being led by the Lord, and will be rewarded by Him for their going.

    Never forget this! Many do.

  22. I’ve done seminars on leading worship and youth ministry and never charged a cent.

    Never even occurred to me.

  23. Don’t be silly, Greg. This is nothing to do with simony. No one’s selling the Holy Spirit. It’s a training seminar!

    I wish that were true Steve…seriously I’m not beating this up.

    Do you know how to pray for the sick? Come and lean how, and receive impartation of the healing gift from John.

    Pay $25 and receive an impartation of the gift from John. Simony.

  24. Haven’t we all Bones, and I know for certain John, who is a personal friend, has done many a free meeting in his time. Spent years in the Aboriginal communities where not many go. Is much loved by Indigenous people all over the country.

    Greg. You are so far from the mark.

    Some people believe that there can be an impartation by the laying on of hands, but that is not what they are paying for.

    Why not phone the church and ask if they are selling the Holy Spirit, or they are meeting costs so they can help sow into John’s ministry.

    I agree it’s probably a clumsy way of making a point, but you are way over the top with your fears. You should go. See him at work. He’s not at all the same as anything you will have seen. But be prepared to stay far longer than you’d expect if you go to his meetings, because he stays with people until he is sure they have received something, and there are usually heaps of people, so he often goes beyond midnight.

    By the way, as a disclaimer, my friendship with John isn’t necessarily an endorsement of all he does or says. He’s COC old-school. I’m not.

    But he’s in it because he wants to see people healed, and serve Jesus. That’s it. Simple message. Simple application. No bells. No whistles. No frills. Just John serving Jesus as best he can.

  25. Gregs right. The motivation of those givibg the money is that they will get the gift of healing.

  26. Oh grow up, Bones. If you want to misunderstand the blurb like that go ahead, but it says far more than the part about impartation.

    What a load of killjoy fogeys you are!

    “They want us to pay for a seminar! GnaGnaGnaGna!”

  27. Well, I suppose, like the other ‘watchers’ Greg is scraping around for controversy and finding little to amuse him. Slim pickings for you, unfortunately, Bones.

    Maybe I’ll stir up a Catholic dogma for you to chew on.

  28. I’m starting a church whee all we do is tell Phil Pringle to go away, and we do it in robot voices. I think I’ll call it C3PO!

    Thank you, I’m here till Sunday, try the veal!

  29. Maybe I’m drawing a long bow…I know the pastor of the church where the seminar is happening and he’s certainly not about maki h people pay for ministry. I might just go, with an open mind, and report back.

  30. I’m with Steve on this one.
    While I’d be opposed to charging for Sunday services, I see nothing wrong there being an entrance fee when Christians hold a concert, teach a seminar on counselling, church history, married life, etc etc.

    As Steve says, some people have jobs and other forms of income and if they want to not charge for their seminars etc, that’s ok too.

    Bones – you taught worship seminars for free? Wise decision. Nobody can ask for their money back I suppose. Tranport expenses maybe….?

    And re Steve’s experiences with charging – that’s an interesting point. Going back, I remember many times when tradesman would get paid for work on church buildings etc, but people with computer skills etc were usually expected to “just help out” even though the time involved was significant.

    On the whole money angle, maybe many of you don’t realize that for every mega pastor who is getting rewarded by amounts you consider way too much, there are probably hundreds or pastors, missionaries, workers out there who live extremely sacrificially and even then have to put up with people complaining about the way they raise money and spend it.

    And Greg, for sure I think you should go.

    Always better seeing things for yourself – even if you come away with the same conclusion, at least you can say you went there.

    But if you do, I suggest you get their early and stay right till the end.
    Maybe you can talk to the guy at the end.

    For what it’s worth….I’ve been to meetings where I’ve come away thinking that the level of reported miracles was nowhere near what was said, but often realized that the preacher was just sincerely doing what he thought was what God was calling him to do.

    For that matter I’ve also been to many non-charismatic meetings that weren’t as blessed, meaningful etc etc as people said either.

    I personally prefer the offering system to the seminar fee so that anyone can go – but in the end, are there many people who really want to go and learn something but can’t pay 25 bucks (who then will spend the same amount on rubbish?)

  31. The $25 is for catering and to cover the costs of hosting the event. Chances are it’s also to pay for travel costs for John Mellor. Do you think that the church should just cover it all out of their budget? How do you think they pay for the toilet paper? Or the electricity? How about the marketing? Of course, I know you all know this. You’re just looking for another excuse to bash someone you don’t agree with.

  32. By the way, I just checked out Life Church’s website. These guys are actually living the gospel. They feed hundreds of homeless each week. They have half-way houses and other missions to the poor and oppressed. What do you do for the gospel Bones and Greg? It’s easy to criticise from the comfort of your lounge room, isn’t it, but when the rubber hits the road, well…..

  33. 18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

    20 Peter answered: “God bless this seed you have given 100 times. And with this seed I shall pay for my toilet paper and one way trip to Rome.”

    21 And Peter did lay hands upon Simon who was immediately filled with the Holy Spirit. 22 Simon went out from that place and established his own megachurch in Sardis. 23 Simon was blessed manifold by the Lord when suddenly one day he disappeared from the sight of his followers taking his blessings with him including his golden chariot. (leased by LMI of course)

  34. “These guys are actually living the gospel. They feed hundreds of homeless each week. They have half-way houses and other missions to the poor and oppressed.”

    27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

  35. “[…] I just checked out Life Church’s website. These guys are actually living the gospel. They feed hundreds of homeless each week. They have half-way houses and other missions to the poor and oppressed.”

    “Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honoured by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

    Matthew 6:1-4

  36. @Greg

    Charming. Very Christian of you. Nice witness. Hope youre proud of yourself. Anyway, I lost touch with what Kevin was doing. I hadn’t made the connection until this thread. I am very impressed with what their church is doing. The contrast between what they are doing and the way that you and Bones live out your faith is very stark.

  37. @Greg. I’d really love it if you went to the meetings.

    I believe that God can heal people. I believe that God can heal people today through prayer and laying on of hands.

    Just haven’t seen conclusive evidence of it that can not be put down to normal explanation. And on the contrary, I know dozens, or maybe hundreds of charismatics who haven’t been healed in spite of numerous times of prayer over years and decades. So many that healing meetings like this aren’t anywhere near as common as they used to be.

    Im much more interested in whether sick people get healed or not as opposed to a 25 dollar seminar fee.

  38. The contrast between what they are doing and the way that you and Bones live out your faith is very stark.

    oh, so you’re aware of all we do outside of this arena? You’re aware of my involvement in ministry to outlaw bikies? You’re aware of my involvement in my daughters schools? You’re aware of my ministry at a local and diocesan level? Excellent, nice of you to enquire…what do you do but tap out bullshit from behind a keyboard? I refer back to my original suggestion.

  39. @Greg

    I know nothing of what you do apart from what you have mentioned here at various times. I know that you preach (although how they allow you to share from their pulpits is beyond me), but I was unaware of your other pursuits. Well done. Obviously there’s the signposts Greg who abuses, uses foul language, dismisses most of the bible and acuses other ministers of profiting from the gospel, and then there’s the Christian Greg who ministers to bikers and works in the school tuckshop. It must be hard for you to keep track of which persona you need to use in each case.

    As for me, I am on the worship team in my church, am on the church board, help out at youth, mow lawns for the older ladies in the church, and travel with other teams around the world ministering in third world countries for a couple of weeks a year, praying for the sick and sharing the gospel. I’d love to do more, but can’t. But I certainly don’t criticise those who do more than I ever could

  40. @Eyes

    I never said I was better than Greg. However, in criticising all of these ministers, as Greg (and Bones, of course) do at every opportunity, Greg is implying that he is better than John Mellor, Kevin Wilcock, Phil Pringle, Brain Houston, Frank Houston, Joseph Prince, Rick Warren, etc etc etc.

    Just saying

  41. 25 bucks ain’t too bad. But what else are they selling at Mellor’s conference?Is Wilcock doing all of the offering messages?
    A good old rev from Kev, and a quick check up from the neck up to get rid of your stinking thinking and they won’t even need an admission fee.If i go i will throw in a few bottles of red some nice cigars.

  42. So using your logic…the fact you criticize me means that you think your better than me then roundhouse…is that so? Or is it possible to be critical without believing you are superior?

    I do not believe I’m better than any of those people, they’ve each done far more than I have in their respective fields, doesn’t mean I can’t criticise.

  43. { And makes his own red! }

    Oh well then, he’s progressed.
    If you were going to buy Kev a bottle of red, then make sure it’s up to his standards, other wise he will poor most of it on the barbie.

  44. (although how they allow you to share from their pulpits is beyond me)

    I would rather listen to what Greg has to say then most of the Pentecostal sheisters.

    Those guys aren’t Bible teachers.

    I would rather listen to my dog than Brian Houston.

    ffs Joseph Prince is a con artist. Why would you listen to that conman? I can only listen to him if I have a lobotomy.

    Worst. Pseudo Teacher. EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  45. Eyes, that’s something that I personally have always had problems with.

    Either take up an offering, or just charge the seminar fee so you don’t have drawn out offering appeals.

    But they often have a seminar fee PLUS a long offering appeal.

    But, that’s just me. I realize it’s a love offering and totally voluntary.

  46. @Roundhouse.

    I criticize some really dumb passes when watching high level rugby league sometimes. Doesn’t mean I’m better than a state of origin player.

    I think Greg has the right to criticize an aspect of a person’s ministry.

    If none of us could do that, conversation in Australia would pretty much stop.

    Which is food for thought perhaps.

    Anyway, respect to anyone who uses the word “diocesan”.

    Greg obviously likes to use a very wide range of English expressions! lol

  47. How can you heal an amputee, unless the healing has nothing to do with the missing limb? That requires a regenerative miracle. I think you’re just showing off your level of scepticism and unbelief. I don’t think there’s even a Bible precedent for it. Not that it’s impossible to God, but the closest I can recall is the withered hand growing out, and the leper being completely restored.

    If someone is in agonising pain and is relived of it then the job is done.

    It’s not ever about proving a single thing to zqudlyba or any other pseudonym. If zqudlyba can’ believe it because Jesus said it he’ll never believe a healing if it happens to anyone he knows. That’s how it goes.

    So it’s not about proving a thing to zqudlyba, but about ministering to the sick and doing all you can to help them be healed, delivered, saved, recover or cope or get through it.

  48. I am sure that at the resurrection of the dead there will be more then limbs restored.What about all those who have been cremated and burnt to ash?

  49. I find it interesting that whenever the healing amputees question comes up that there always seems to be some serious sidestepping around it. It seems quite simple to me – why is it that ‘healings’ always seem to be of the type that are not able to be outwardly and easily observed? Why are there no independently verified accounts of regenerated limbs anywhere to be found?

  50. That’s because you want magic tricks to solve your problem of unbelief.

    It has never worked that way. Faith always precedes works.

    Smith Wigglesworth has a testimony of such a miracle however, of a person’s feet being regenerated, but you’ll have to research it.

    1. There is no Biblical precedent for limb reproduction.

    2. It couldn’t be healing since it requires a regenerative miracle.

    3. No one has to prove a thing to you. The issue is the patient’s wellbeing not your inability to believe.

    If you have a problem with it, seek God and ask why there is no example for this in scripture.

    But there is Biblical precedent for healing of many ailments.

  51. Steve said “There is no biblical precedent for limb reproduction” – is there a biblical precedent for cancer being healed? How about limb-lengthening, which seems to be a popular type of ‘healing’ that takes place? So are you saying that if there isn’t a biblical precedent then we shouldn’t expect God to heal those things? God can do some things but others are too hard for Him?

  52. What do you think ‘limb-lengthening’ is?

    Bones, in response, you could start with your brain!

  53. { why is it that ‘healings’ always seem to be of the type that are not able to be outwardly and easily observed? Why are there no independently verified accounts of regenerated limbs anywhere to be found? }

    All is Vanity!

  54. In all seriousness Bones, I’d believe God could heal Alzheimers.
    As you do. As to whether he would, I think so.

    I’ll be praying for healing for anything.

  55. “I have witnessed a part of my body lengthening. But not when I was praying.”

    That’s happened to me too. Funny thing is sometimes my wife was praying against it.

  56. Bones,
    God specialises in healing one leg shorter than the other.

    Wrong!

    In fact, as chiropractors will tell you, most people have poor posture and it causes back ailments which affect all parts of the body, especially limbs, including the way we walk. A curved spine will lead to angled pelvis and legs seemingly at different lengths. Mostly people have the curvature of their spine healed and their legs appear to stretch or shrink.

    There are cases where legs have grown out literally. This is a miracle, as the bone and tissue need to be literally replenished or created.

    God can, and does, of course, heal anything or produce miracles according to His will.

    John can’t, as he’ll readily admit, heal anything or anyone. Only God can.

    Even GPs don’t heal anyone, only apply the salve, treatment or prescribe a course of action. God is the healer and has put the potential for healing in all of us. So whether through ministry or medicine, God is the Healer.

  57. Jack,
    why is it that ‘healings’ always seem to be of the type that are not able to be outwardly and easily observed?

    Says who? Have you ever been anywhere where you might observe God healing people? I have. It is very real. Outwardly observed and readily testified.

    I think you are actually challenging God rather than healing. Are you an agnostic, atheist or liberal Christian?

  58. { why is it that ‘healings’ always seem to be of the type that are not able to be outwardly and easily observed? }

    Yet we are just waiting for the resurrection of the disintegrated dead.

  59. Steve, you ask if I am agnostic, atheist or liberal Christian. I am probably a combination of all three. Lifetime evangelical Christian, been on a crisis of faith for the last few years. Just trying to make sense of it all and sort out truth from lies. The whole healing thing is one of the main things that troubled me, with my belief being that many ‘Christian’ pastors are happy to lie and deceive in order to achieve their own ends, which may be personal power and ego and monetary gain.

  60. Fair enough, Jack.

    Eternal life doesn’t consist of what we see in others but of who we are in Christ.

    There are problems everywhere with every church and every Christian community. The main issue, for you, is with your relationship with Christ.

    If you can get that right the rest will start to make sense, but I can tell you for sure there is nothing pretty about Christians.

    That is why we need Christ.

    And you can’t get it right for yourself. The only way is through Christ, and through faith in Him.

    If you focus on people, even on Christians, you’ll waste your lifetime waiting for the perfect Christian to come along, and no one has that kind of time to spend.

    Go straight to Jesus. Put your trust in Him, and ask Him to lead you into all truth through His Spirit.

  61. 1 Corinthians 15
    1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
    2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you–unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
    4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
    5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.

    Romans 10
    8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
    10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

    That’s about all you need to know and believe right now.

  62. Of course the real miracle is that through the scandal of abusive priests and prosperity pimps feathering their own nest and abusing the people of God, that people still cling on to the real hope and Gospel of Jesus of Nazareth.

    It’s like bank tellers. They can spot counterfeits because they spend all their time with the real deal.

    When you spend time getting to know Jesus of Nazareth as revealed in the scriptures you quickly know that which is false and deception.

    Those who put their trust in a man, a Houston or other personality are like the seed sown in the shallow soil.

    The lies, deception and twisting of scripture and emphasis on material gain and success reveals a church that is truly apostate.

    I wouldn’t be too worried, Jack.

    Jesus thinks a lot of it is pretty f**ked as well.

  63. The only important apostate church has its headquarters in Rome, Bones. Most of the Pentecostals you are at war with are just coming to terms with growing up. On the whole they are not so far from the truth.

    The RCs have missed their chance and gone so far beyond they would need to be completely overhauled to come close to Biblical standards. Jesus was never in there, so he’s never had to leave.

    Faith for healing is a big deal, and with half the Body afraid to enter in it is little wonder the rest are having to rediscover what the saints knew in the first years after Christ.

    And Rome has been the main culprit of confused doctrine and inability to move with the Holy Spirit.

    At least the pentecostals give it a go.

  64. All I have seen you do, Bones, with your mates on here is mock healing, mock Jesus and mock the Father, who is the Healer.

  65. You don’t even believe half the Bible should be in there, or is a myth, an allegory, or the ramblings of stone-age farmers, and the rest you have tried to rewrite. You deny creation, push evolution, believe in Mary as mediatrix, canonisation and adoration of dead saints, support the error of catholic dogmas, which are oxymoronic, deny the devil’s existence as a personality, promote annihilation of the soul, and a form of universalist salvation, deny the resurrection of the saints, laud the pope.

    That, my friend, is apostasy.

  66. Look here’s your friends with their tricks to deceive and promote themselves and their ‘ministry’.

    Steve Martin does a very good pentecostal pastor in Leap of Faith. Only thing is he was more realistic than most of them.

  67. Jack I don’t think there are many Christian pastors who are actually deliberately lying and deceiving.

  68. Can’t be bothered with your ‘proofs’, Bones. I’ve seen the real thing. God heals today.

    You’re nothing but an anti-faith apostate.

    You have serious issues with anything to do with money because you’re so afraid of losing it.

    You can’t believe the Bible because the natural world and scientific supposition means more to you.

    You think you might believe because you see something, when the key to faith is believing before you see.

    You find it easier to believe in Mary’s intercession than to believe in Jesus’ works.

    You think we descended from apes.

    You think the big bang happened by itself.

    You probably voted for Julia Gillard at the last election.

    You put more store in youtube than even the Bible.

  69. I can’t remember a single thing in the Bible you agree with.

    You even deny that prophecy is predictive.

    You deny Genesis. You deny Revelation. You deny God’s judgment. You deny sin theologically, because you deny the origin of sin, and deny the existence of Adam, which means you deny Biblical theology of sin.

    You deny the necessity to understand the resurrection of the saints, or the second coming of Jesus as joy for believers and wrath for sinners.

    You confess marianism and the full 5 dogmas of Mary. You confess transubstantiation, purgatory and prayer for the dead.

    You deny the existence of the Lake of Fire for the devil, fallen angeles, demons and their followers, because you deny the personality of them all, considering them to be a wicked part of human nature personified.

    What, in the Bible, do you believe?

  70. Q, perhaps me saying pastors are deliberately lying and deceiving is a bit of a harsh line. Perhaps it is softer to say they are often loose with the truth, happy to tell stories that contain some truth but are well mixed in with exaggeration and unproven ‘facts’ in order to bolster the credibility of the stories and by extension themselves. For example, “John Smith no longer needs surgery as his leg is healed. Praise Jesus for answered prayer”. Of course the therapy and other medical treatment is the most likely reason why he doesn’t need surgery, but by now turning this into a supernatural intervention the pastor and the church have increased their apparent credibility with their flock. For me a non-interventionist God is the only one that makes sense, because the alternative, where only a select few in certain circumstances have their prayers answered, would reveal a god of very low character.

  71. Jack,
    For me a non-interventionist God is the only one that makes sense, because the alternative, where only a select few in certain circumstances have their prayers answered, would reveal a god of very low character.

    Who are you to say who God should heal or not heal, have mercy on or not have mercy on? Aren’t we all sinners saved by grace, if indeed we are saved? Why should he have mercy on an sinner?

    Romans 9
    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
    15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
    16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
    17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”
    18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
    19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
    20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
    21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
    22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
    23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
    24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    Praise God, then, that he does have mercy on many more than he hardens.

    The scripture, though, also says that he resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. So it’s not as if he doesn’t open the door to those who recognise their sinfulness and need.

    What amazes me is the way people are prepared to judge others, especially those who lead and serve churches, and yet fail to see their own flaws.

  72. “You probably voted for Julia Gillard at the last election”

    Is that one of the markers of a person without faith? Is it possible to have faith in God and still have voted Labor?

  73. Now that is debatable, wazza, but no, Labour has its moments. That’s why we’re having an election. It was a quip by the way. Mind you, I could be wrong. Tony Abbott is a Catholic, so Bones and Greg may vote for Mary in the next election.

    I don’t think, as a mater of interest, that voting for Gillard necessarily equates to voting for Labour, so when I say he probably voted for Gillard, I didn’t have Labour in mind. It’s a long time since Labour was anywhere near the values it once held dear. I don’t even know if Gillard has any values.

  74. @wazza

    “Is it possible to have faith in God and still have voted Labor?”

    No. A Christian should not be voting Labor. Especially when it is lead by an Emily’s Lister.

  75. Had to look up what Emily’s List was.

    So that’s the group Bones and Wazza tithe to right?
    Probably collect Emily’s Lister posters for their walls.

    (Sorry – that’s my totally off the wall ridiculous insult over for the day).

    It’s Saturday guys – we should all be out enjoying the sunshine!

  76. Steve, you asked me – “Who are you to say who God should heal or not heal, have mercy on or not have mercy on?”. Here is an example of a thought process that lead me away from the idea of an interventionist God. If you believe that God supernaturally changes a course of action that would otherwise have taken place if not for a prayer, and will do so for the big and small things in life, but does so according to how He sees fit, please compare him to a parent.

    According to your belief, God knows all, sees all and can apparently intervene at any time. The United States is a predominantly Christian country, with tens of millions of Christian children. It is also a country (not unlike many others) which has a significant percentage of children who are sexually abused on a regular basis. It is therefore quite reasonable to assume that there is a significant crossover of these two groups, so therefore we can say that there are probably millions of Christian children sufferering sexual abuse. It is therefore quite reasonable to assume that on an given day, there are at least thousands of children praying to God along the lines of “please God, don’t let uncle/brother/neighbour come into my room tonight and do those things to me”. However given that we don’t hear of thousands of (mostly) men mysteriously dying, we could reasonably assume that the prayer is unanswered and the abuse continues.

    So to compare God to a parent, let’s go to a home where dad in is the kitchen and his two children are in separate bedrooms. One child cries out to his father “Dad please don’t let Uncle Bill come into my room tonight as he keeps doing bad things to me”. The other cries out “Dad please help me to understand this homework as I really need to pass this test tomorrow”. He has heard their requests, and he has the power to act on both requests, yet he chooses to help the child needing homework help and not the other. What does that say about the character of that father?

  77. “You probably voted for Julia Gillard at the last election”

    Gillard’s playing the race card now. She’s gone. I’d definitely consider Rudd. The Libs can fo.

    To those on the Left: to whom shall we turn, where shall we go.

  78. I don’t have time to wonder about things like that, Jack. It’s much more useful to go out every day and connect with some one and do what I can to help them understand God better by sharing the gospel with them over a cup of tea.

    Go sent me into the world to preach the good news. As far as I am concerned that is interventionist if anyone is helped closer to accepting Jesus as Lord.

    If I get to pray for people and God heals them, that is great. If the Holy Spirit leads me to do something which helps comfort a troubled person or pray for deliverance form a situation then I am being useful to him and helping them.

    Why should i worry about hypotheticals when reality is all around me and there are simply not enough of us to reach every person with every problem with every opportunity very day to help a person have their life radically changed by the power of the gospel.

    The fact that Jesus died on the cross for a sinful world is interventionist.

    The fact that the Holy Spirit is in the earth drawing men to the Father is interventionist.

    The fact that God has sent believers out into the whole world to preach the gospel of peace is interventionist.

    The fact that God gave us his grace, and his Word, and his mercy and his love is interventionist.

    Sin is sin and the world is filled with it, but the whole earth is also filled with His glory, and if we can take His glory into someone’s sinful life and bring about change we will have made the world a better place.

    What you missed out is that there is a devil and he is the tempter, the accuser and the author, through Adam’s sin, of sickness, disease, corruption, murder, hatred and lies. He has abused, not just the innocent, but the whole world with his deception. He has brought rebellion and disobedience into the hearts of men and women who became his slaves through sin. It is not God’s fault people serve the devil rather than the Father.

    God the Father has done everything He needs to to bring about change in the hearts of men, because without that change of heart there can be no redemption. Even if you were healed in your sin, your heart will condemn you if you do not repent.

    It’s not time to dream up nightmare scenarios of the horrors of this world, but to get out amongst the people and do something to help them get out of sin and on their feet with God.

  79. Emily’s List

    “We strongly believe in the right of every woman to enjoy equal rights and privileges before the law, regardless of sexual orientation and gender identity. This is because equality is a fundamental human right that should be enjoyed by all.”

    Of course that’s a problem isn’t it.

    Doesn’t gel with the neanderthal Biblical fundamentalist view of women to just bend over and take it.

    Of course God doesn’t believe in human rights – unless their Christians.

  80. ‘Every woman…regardless of gender identity’?

    Is that an odd phrase? When is a woman not a woman? And if she is a man, why would (s)he need equal rights as a woman? Doesn’t make sense.

  81. Derren Brown! What a fake!

    You didn’t read what i wrote earlier did you?

    No! Of course you didn’t. You only red your own press!

    You think ‘growing feet out’ is literally ‘growing feet out’. All Derren does is prove the point I made earlier, but very, very accidentally, and he doesn’t know it. That is why it is so disturbingly funny and flakey!

    And caught you hook, line and sinker.

    Chiropractors must shake their heads in disbelief at Derren’s idiotic presumption.

    When would you ever take a magician’s word for anything?

  82. “What you missed out is that there is a devil”

    We don’t need a devil. The devil doesn’t tell us to rape kids. Good luck trying that in court.

  83. “Probably all in their mind!”

    Undoubtedly. Like domestic violence.

    Those bruises are all in your mind.

    Rape is just a state of mind. Just relax, smile and it isn’t rape.

  84. “Derren Brown! What a fake!”

    Like I said. He’d have one of the biggest megachurches in the world. He could hypnotise his whole congregation to tithe and hang on his every word.

    He’d be laughing all the way to the bank.

  85. Steve, one of the central concepts in most parts of protestant/evangelical/pentecostal Christianity is that God answers prayer. My hypothetical seeks to point out the problem with the seemingly random manner on which prayer is answered affirmatively. What would you think of a father that chooses who to help and not to help in the matters as I described?

  86. Jack, I understand and feel your struggle and I can’t give any easy trite answers.

    I don’t believe God is totally non interventionist.

    I think Christians have trivialised God who answers prayers to find them a car park yet can’t stop abuse, the holocaust or hunger.

    We’ve just had our second flood in Qld and some businesses and houses have been flooded just after recovering from the last flood. Many people are gutted. Why doesn’t God stop it.

    My 5 year old asked me why God sent the floods. To which I replied God doesn’t. God doesn’t cause suffering.

    So then why didn’t He stop it. Churches were flooded out as well.

    I dunno.

    I look at the evil in the world and the Holocaust and ask not “Where
    was God?” but “Where was man?”. Why do we commit acts of great evil on each other?

    If the answer is a devil then there’s nothing to learn as we’ve resolved ourselves of any responsibility.

    There is great evil in the world. Always has been. The martyrs and survivors have shown us that in the midst of great evil, suffering and abuse, the Son of Man is there as well. God suffers with them.

    In this day and age of a Western God of prosperity and abundance such a notion is anathema. But it is a theological truth.

    God doesn’t stop evil – even that directed at His only Son. He lets us have the desires of our hearts. And we have to face the consequences and rely on Him.

    This is what Elie Wiesel says of his journey back to God: “Where were you, God of Kindness, in Auschwitz? What was going on in heaven, at the celestial tribunal, while your children were marked for humiliation, isolation and death only because they were Jewish?
    “These questions have been haunting me for more than five decades. You have vocal defenders, you know. Many theological answers were given me, such as: „God is God. He alone knows what He is doing. One has no right to question Him or His ways.‟ Or:
    „Auschwitz was a punishment for European Jewry‟s sins of assimilation and/or Zionism.‟ And: „Isn‟t Israel the solution? Without Auschwitz, there would have been no Israel.‟“I reject all these answers. Auschwitz must and will forever remain a question mark only: it can be conceived neither with God nor without God. At some point, I began wondering whether I was not unfair with you, Master of the universe. After all, Auschwitz was not
    something that came down ready-made from heaven. It was conceived by men, implemented by men, staffed by men. And their aim was to destroy not only us but you as well. Ought we
    not to think of your pain, too? Watching your children suffer at the hands of your other children, haven‟t you also suffered?”

    Doesn’t answer your question and the only truth you need to know is God is with you.

    Now.

  87. If I understand Jack’s contradiction:

    The God who was silent during the Holocaust v the God who heals headaches and sore backs.

    There does seem something contradictory there.

  88. I can make some sense of a God who is non-interventionist, either by choice or lack of omnipotence. At least to have a God (god?) who says that He will not intervene in any circumstance, but leaves it to us to be His hands and feet (for better or worse) is a consistent one. The version of god who supernaturally alters the course of events at his whim, denying those that suffer yet helping the mildly inconvenienced, is an evil one.

  89. “I can make some sense of a God who is non-interventionist, either by choice…”

    I think that’s where I am.

    Many other Christians are there as well.

    We no longer believe God sends natural disasters, commits nations to invade other nations in judgment or elects political leaders.

  90. “Chiropractors must shake their heads in disbelief at Derren’s idiotic presumption.”

    I go to a chiropractor. Do you really think Brown is criticising the chiropractic profession?

    Are you comparing chiropractics with faith healing?

    Seems to me you have nfi.

    Exposed leg lengthening faith healer

  91. @Bones

    Of course, you only quoted a part of the Emily’s List beliefs. That’s what you do. You copy and paste those things that you agree with while conveniently ignoring the rest. Why didn’t you read on Bones? Here’s the remainder of their mission statement:

    Choice

    We believe women must have control over their own bodies and choices in their lives.
    Reproductive Freedom empowers women and men to choose if, when and how to begin the important journey into parenthood, without fear of discrimination, coercion or violence.

    In other words, they support abortion. But not just that. Emily’s Listers have been agitating for the right to late term abortions. And they are succeeding all around the world. Let me tell you which prominent Labor politicians are members, and who support the evil push for abortion (and these are just the prominent ones)- Julia Gillard, Kate Lundy, Julie Owens, Tanya Plibersek, Sharon Grierson, Trish Crossin, Penny Wong, Jenny Macklin.

    Note that ALL of these women subscribe to every point in the Emily’s List statement of beliefs, therefore ALL of these women support abortion. But, you don’t care about that do you Bones?

  92. @Bones

    “So then why didn’t He stop it.”

    Maybe because he’s not the God of this world? When Adam sinned, he gave over the dominion that was given him over to Satan. God has as much control over this world’s weather system as the boss of Toyota has preventing a Camry driver from drinking and then driving.

  93. Sorry for all succession of posts. Have been out mowing the lawns.

    @Bones

    So a couple of charlatans have been exposed. Does that mean that EVERY healing minister is a charlatan? Of course not. But if you believe Bones, EVERY healing minister is a fraud. I read a couple of days ago that a doctor was jailed for killing a patient due to malpractice. Therefore, if we are to follow Bones “logic” we should all refrain from visiting doctors, because, hey, if one is a shonk, then they all are, right?

  94. So has the Australian policies re abortion changed since the ALP came into power?

    No.

    That’s the reality. The Libs won’t criminalise abortion. So your Emily’s List scare tactic is futile.

    Same with conservative state governments. None are moving to criminalise it.

    The same with the Republicans. They take money and support from anti-abortion groups but won’t do anything about it when they get in power. Abortions actually INCREASED after Bush got in.

    Abortion Grows Under Bush
    http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/10/22/abortion-grows-under-bush.htm

    We can also look abroad for confirmation of this: nations that provide easy access to abortion have far lower abortion rates than those that criminalize abortion. Are the lower rates due to the fact that abortion is legal? Although that might play some role, it’s surely not a coincidence that the nations which provide easy access to abortion services also provide easy access to a wide range of social and medical services. They have larger and more comprehensive social safety nets than the nations where abortion is criminalized.

    If they did criminalise abortion then it would be back to the days of backyard abortions.

    Some Christians would probably like that.

  95. @Bones

    “So has the Australian policies re abortion changed since the ALP came into power?……So your Emily’s List scare tactic is futile.”

    Did I say that? No. I am saying that the Labor Party is ideologically opposed to Christian values, and the fact that the majority of female MP’s in the Labor Government support abortion, and are a part of a movement that wants to legalise late term abortions, shows me that the party is not one that a serious Christian should ever consider voting for.

  96. “Maybe because he’s not the God of this world?”

    So God is quite prepared to let the world go to hell.

    But He will act if one of my legs is shorter than the other or if I give 10% to my pastor.

    Interesting God that.

  97. This isn’t China where abortions are forced on people. My understanding on late term abortions is that they are a dangerous procedure and if you think a late term abortion is better than a mid term abortion than you’re following the logic of atheists.

    The question is Roundhouse,

    Why would a woman want a late term abortion?

  98. That should be

    “if you think a late term abortion is worse than a mid term abortion than you’re following the logic of atheists.”

  99. @Bones

    “So God is quite prepared to let the world go to hell.”

    You don’t know much about God, do you? Seems you spend so much time looking for what’s wrong in the church that you have no time left to actually learn about God.

  100. @Bones

    “if you think a late term abortion is worse than a mid term abortion than you’re following the logic of atheists.”

    What are you on about? Do you actually read other people’s posts, or do you just scan them for keywords so you can google them to find some kooky ideology that fits into your weird little world-view?

  101. “You don’t know much about God, do you?”

    I actually know God.

    Now to consider your paradox, you believe in a God who couldn’t give a f##k if my house collapsed in an earthquake yet is concerned if I have one leg shorter than the other or suddenly appears as Santa Claus if I give 10% to the church.

  102. Roundhouse, you said “God has as much control over this world’s weather system as the boss of Toyota has preventing a Camry driver from drinking and then driving.” Am I correct in interpreting your comment as a belief that God does not intervene supernaturally in response to prayer? I am just trying to get a clearer picture on where you and others stand on this.

  103. New International Version (©1984)
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Dear,Jack,
    You are going to have to accept, that some people on this Blog believe in the inside of an asses anus . These people won’t accept the truth, but they will accept flatulent comfort.
    Be carefull!!!

  104. Sorry EYES, you’ve lost me a bit with this comment, as well as your earlier “All in vanity” comment. What is “the truth” to you?

  105. “the truth”

    Galatians 3
    New International Version (NIV)
    Faith or Works of the Law

    3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

    7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

    10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

  106. @Bones

    “you believe in a God who couldn’t give a f##k if my house collapsed ”

    No, I don’t. That “God” is simply a construct created by people such as yourself who don’t actually spend the time to find out His true character. The fact is He does care, and if this hypothetical catastrophe were to have occurred to you then He would have warned you through His Holy Spirit to get out of there before it happened (John 16:13), but it really depends on whether you listen or not. God cannot stop the roof from caving in because it is outside of His control. Let me ask you – did He control the builder when he used inferior materials? Or did He stop the developers who decided to build a house in a flood plain? Did He control the weather when it rained for days? The answer obviously is no. So why should God get the blame when the roof caves in?

    “yet is concerned if I have one leg shorter than the other”

    There is no either/or. God answers prayer and works healing in and through people. This is a fact. This however has nothing whatsoever to do with whether God will throw a giant hook onto the roof of your house to stop it caving in on you. As usual you throw together unrelated examples and think that they somehow make your argument valid.

  107. So now Bones doesn’t believe in the power of prayer, or that God will intervene in whatever way he chooses to, even though I have produced the definitive and conclusive scripture from Romans 9 on this subject.

    Bones, to help you with this, the chiropractor works on your back or shoulder or hips or whatever because something is probably out of sync and need adjustment.

    If the curvature of the spine is out of line it will affect your gait, that is, the way you walk. It will cause nerves to be put under painful pressure. it will eventually atrophy if it is allowed to persist and muscles will no longer function in the way they were designed to because you tend to over-compensate in the way you stand, sit, walk or move to alleviate the stress or pain on that particular part of your back, and it becomes a habit which creates unwanted adjustments in your posture and gait.

    When people are being prayed for their ‘feet to grow out’, as you choose to call it, often, in reality, it is the curvature of their spine which is being adjusted, which results in their feet seeming to grow. Actually what is happening is that the straightening of their spine gives the illusion of their feet being stretched or shrunk.

    This is what Derren, the fake healer, Brown does, in effect, only as an illusion, not as reality. He makes the spine of a normal person shift by sleight of hand manipulation, which gives the illusion of a foot growing out, by the way he sits a person, the angle of a camera or the adjustment of the hips or back.

    Simple magic – by Derren, that is. He has you completely sucked in, and yes he has already grown a megachurch – of gullible unbelievers and agnostics like you and Lance and all the other naive ‘watchers’ who simply believe anything an antichrist says if it denies what Christians believe and teach.

    But you have no idea how people have their backs, shoulders, hips, and feet healed through this method, one used naturally through physical manipulation by chiropractors every day over the course of weeks to adjust their patients’ spines, muscles, and joints, because you refuse to believe anything could possibly happen which is as simple as God responding to prayer for people who come for healing through this method, by adjusting their backs, or physical posture by gifts of healings or working of miracles through the Holy Spirit.

  108. Bones,
    This isn’t China where abortions are forced on people.

    I take it you don’t consider the foetus to be a person, then.

    If there were any official statistics worth looking at we’d find that the majority of abortions are convenience related and not actually a serious health issue. Rather they re lifestyle related or financial.

    Sadly the relative departments are either so ashamed of what they do that or so clinically detached that they refuse to release any kind of statistics on what kind of reasons are given for abortions so we can create a demographic and a response through adjustments to legislation.

    So foetus’ are indeed forced to undergo abortion by those who make the decisions about such things, and they are people, no matter what part of their development they are in. The macabre and draconian means used to terminate the life expectancy of these people would shock most mothers-to-be so they are ‘protected’ from any kind of awareness of what their child will endure before he or she is decapitated.

    And the people who scoffed at the slippery slope arguments of he anti-abortion lobby are living so far down the slope and so deep n he mire that they can’t hear the sound of lobbyists anymore.

  109. Bones,
    We’ve just had our second flood in Qld and some businesses and houses have been flooded just after recovering from the last flood. Many people are gutted. Why doesn’t God stop it.

    So you and others bought or rented homes in QLD. Are you telling me you didn’t know that sometimes there are cyclones in the north that send enough rain water into the natural basin which causes floods? Or you did, and ignored the possibility, like others, that this might happen?

    Or maybe you actually believed the reports that QLD would never again have a flood because climate change had rendered Australia forever in drought and famine and increasingly barren, so don’t build dams, and it’s OK to live in the flood plains now. It’s all good! You’re all safe from flood! Some people actually believed this!

    I lived in Darwin for many years. Was I aware that cyclones, fire and crocodiles are a common occurrence there? Yes. Did I go there and live there knowing this? Yes. Was this anything to do with God? Yes, in that he called me there, but no, in that the prevailing conditions existed before I arrived.

    People live in the wooded hills of beautiful Victoria and every year put themselves in danger of fire destroying everything they have built. We all take risks with where we live. It has nothing to do with God or his intervention. It is entirely to do with the old real estate adage of ‘Position, Position’! If you position yourself under a cloud, guess what, eventually it will rain on your parade!

    It rains on the just and the unjust, according to Jesus.

    Maybe God has been trying to tell people, ‘if you live in a certain place a variety of things might happen’. Maybe the weather forecast was trying to tell you. Maybe common sense could have told you.

    Maybe we ignore the natural and potential warnings of life and go ahead and encamp ourselves under the cloud anyway, because of work possibilities, schools, the rest of the year it’s paradise, the kids will love it, the wife wants to be near the rellies, whatever.

    I mean, I was never wiped out by a cyclone, fire or croc. Does this mean I was lucky, or God sent me into a dangerous place to minister but protected my family anyway? We’ve been through at least seven cyclones I can remember in three different places. None touched us. Some amazingly evaporated before they hit our community, island or town.

    We were once warned in prophecy to pray and fast for six months for protection from cyclones, and Monica, a massive category five, hit the coast and meandered between towns and communities to Darwin, ending as a category one, and not one life touched! Prayer? I think so.

    People are taken every year by crocs. Why? Because they ignore the warning signs and swim in the billabongs!

    That about sums it up!

  110. “The fact is He does care, and if this hypothetical catastrophe were to have occurred to you then He would have warned you through His Holy Spirit to get out of there before it happened (John 16:13), but it really depends on whether you listen or not.”

    Well that’s complete crap and wishful thinking at best.

    Do I need to go through the history of every Christian who has gone through disaster to see that it is complete bs?

    According to your retarded theology every Christian who has died or suffered in a disaster such as the Asian tsunami were warned by God and perished because they haven’t listened to God. You’re actually blaming the victims.

    That’s completely retarded.

  111. “People are taken every year by crocs. Why? Because they ignore the warning signs and swim in the billabongs”

    People got washed away by the Asian tsunami which happen 1000s of km away. Tsunamis are notoriously difficult to pick up even from the air.

    No warning signs or anything.

    Their crime – they live in a coastal region.

    We had tornadoes which were one block away from us which we never had before. EVER. No warning signs.

    Another one who blames the victims for disasters.

    F##king Mickey Mouse theology.

    That about sums it up!

  112. Steve, your suggestion that a cyclone died down as a result of prayer is exactly the type of thing I have trouble with. You believe that God has supernaturally intervened to lessen the impact of a normally, naturally occurring event in that part of the world. Yet the child that asks God to stop their abuser is told no – what sort of ‘god’ is that?

  113. “When people are being prayed for their ‘feet to grow out’, as you choose to call it, often, in reality, it is the curvature of their spine which is being adjusted, which results in their feet seeming to grow. Actually what is happening is that the straightening of their spine gives the illusion of their feet being stretched or shrunk.”

    There you go.

    A defence of charlatans and the conning of easily manipulated people. The leg lengthening trick is the easiest con to pull. It’s like the trick you pull with little kids with the thumb.

    There is no healing in that trick.

    If I ever see that I’m walking out. It’s a dead set give away of a charlatan.

  114. I beg your pardon, Bones? Are you so blinkered you can’t understand plain English? You think because I said people’s spinal chords are being healed and other parts of their anatomy are affected it is not a healing?

    You are word-twisting cretin, you really are.

    What I have pointed out is that it s not ‘leg-growing’ therapy. That is the interpretation you and Derren the magic-man are putting on it. That is the real spin here. You have completely misunderstood, and as a result, misrepresented what is actually taking place.

    In that you are proving yourself to be so stupid it beggars belief.

    If a person has a back injury, either through illness or accident, it may well affect their stance, their walk, their gait, their posture, their health and wellbeing, but the cause may well be in a region of their body which makes other parts reveal that problem.

    If your spine is curved, your pelvis will be angled and you will walk with a limp, or in pain or may experience discomfort in your feet, back or legs.

    If, through God’s healing process, the curvature of the spine is restored to its origin position, the pelvis will straighten out, and the legs and feet will normalise.

    What an observer would see is the feet being levelled out which may look as if one is stretching, but in reality it is the curvature of the spine which is being healed.

    This is only one application to help you understand the actual process, which could affect any number of areas in the body, and to demonstrate the foolish deception presented by your hero Derren Brown!

    Why is this so hard for you?

  115. So how many tsunamis are there in a year, Bones?

    It is a rare and generally unpredictable occurrence, and had absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. You just tagged that on for effect.

    You know very well that QLD, given certain conditions could be prone to flooding and yet you chose to live there regardless. You took the risk, as countless people all over the world do. Y0u watch the weather forecast in the wet season like everyone does and weigh up what to do in the event of a cyclone in the north, because you know it could dump a flood on your backyard.

    No one is blaming anyone for this. However they know the possibilities.

    My point is that it is not God’s fault if the weather turns against them, is it? No! You said, ‘why didn’t God do something?’. Why should he, It was their choice to live in a dangerous place. Nobody’s fault. Just rain pouring on the just and the unjust.

    But…

    …if the sign says ‘Danger, Crocodiles, do not go near the water’s edge’ and you still swim in the billabong you are an idiot and will probably be taken by a crocodile!

    Stuff happens, Bones. If you swim in the sea in Cairns you may be stung by a deadly box jelly fish. Now you know. If you swim there it is not God’s fault if you are stung and hospitalised. You’ve been warned.

    Millions live in California which could suffer an earthquake of devastating proportions any second. Is it Go’s fault if the earth rends under their feet? No! Should he stop it? Who’s to say he hasn’t for the last hundred years?

    How would you ever know what he prevents and what he permits?

    No you’re just an angry spite-filled narked bloke with a mile long chip on your shoulder, which is probably why you need a chiropractor. Your back is so far out of joint it would take a major miracle to make you upright again.

  116. It’s great to have someone here like Jack who can express thoughts and doubts, ask questions, and disagree without being belligerent and foul-mouthed.

    I’d forgotten there were people like that. 🙂

  117. It’s obvious these stupid bastards own fault. Didn’t they know that tsunamis hit coastal areas. That’s the risk I take when I take my kids to the beach.

  118. “So how many tsunamis are there in a year, Bones?”

    One covered one quarter of the Southern Hemisphere and killed 200 000+.

    Don’t know why you’re trying to defend God. We just have to put up with the fact that God is real and that shit happens.

    It is about luck and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

  119. Thanks for the compliment Q. I have been a frequent reader of this site for quite a while but a rare commenter, only joining in when a subject comes up that is one that is of concern and/or interest to me. I am interested in trying to find out the truth about God (god?), Christianity and other matters pertaining to the meaning/purpose (if any) of life. I have little interest in getting involved in discussions about the meaning of scripture, as there are that many interpretations of just about every verse in the bible that it seems to be pointless trying to argue about it, and of course on this site pretty much all those disagreements quickly turn to insult sessions.

    I am just trying to use my (God-given?) brain to sort through many issues that are part of most Christian traditions, that have logical problems that I need to try and resolve. Prayer is one of these, as it is a general belief that God answers them. However when I look at the apparent random nature of those answers, those that people believe He says ‘yes’ to and those that he apparently does not say ‘yes’ to, I find this contrary to the general belief in the loving nature of God. Already I have found in this discussion that questions I have posed are being avoided, which I think is because they go against traditionally held beliefs that people are unwilling/afraid to even contemplate revising.

  120. It’s a legitimate question too as to why God allows suffering for many of His children yet apparently relieves the suffering of minor afflictions.

    I’ll bud out and leave it to the experts to deal with your question and see where that goes.

  121. Jack, in all seriousness, don’t be complacent to just talk the talk, but if you really want to see God in action – disregard just about everything that you have learnt from man, read the word for what it is, slowly and deliberately, then do the Word! Take that step of faith and walk the walk.
    Too many people want someone else to go and do the Word, while they sit around, sharpening their pencils, waiting and hoping that they will have something to criticise.
    It doesn’t really take much to do the Word, first you have to die, to the sinful nature, and your spirit will be renewed by Jesus’ Holy Spirit(Rom 8:5-11) – the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, the same spirit that regenerated dry parched bones, bleached in the desert sun(Ezek 37:4-10).
    With the Spirit in you, having come to maturity, you can then step out as a Son of God, with Jesus as the firstborn of many sons. Jack, all of creation – including the weather systems – has been groaning under the burden of sin and corruption and is Eagerly awaiting the manifestation of the Sons of GodRomans 8:19
    Walk the walk and just see how far and deep His love will take you… How hungry and desperate people are today… How hopelessly lost the world is and just how the truth really does set people free.

  122. Is it just me or has Bones just become progressively more obnoxious and unable to read simple English as we go along.

    I read what he says, in between the expletives, and he is increasingly misrepresenting and/or misconstruing what others are actually saying and then going off at these imaginary tangental arguments with an escalating venom.

    I don’t even know who he’s talking to anymore. It’s certainly not me, because nothing he says has anything to do with what I have written on any subject.

    Angry, angry, angry Bones.

  123. Bones,
    There has been one tsunami of this magnitude in your lifetime. It is a rare event.

    It is not evidence that God does not heal, or care, or answer prayer.

    It is evidence of the mortality of men. It rains on the just and the unjust.

    It is evidence that we are very small in terms of the universe.

    It is evidence that we should get ourselves right before God because we never know when our time is up.

    None of tis means that God doesn’t heal even the smallest ailment.

    Your reasoning is flawed, and your aggressive is a disgrace.

  124. “There has been one tsunami of this magnitude in your lifetime. It is a rare event.”

    You forgot New Guinea,1998

    and

    .The following is a chronology of major tsunamis triggered by earthquakes around the world in the past 10 years:

    In June, 2001, at least 78 people were killed by a tsunami caused by a magnitude-8.4 earthquake in southern Peru. The direct economic loss totalled about $300 million.

    On Dec 26, 2004, a 9.0 magnitude earthquake struck off the Indonesian island of Sumatra, triggering a tsunami that killed tens of thousands of people in several countries.

    On July 17, 2006, a magnitude-6.8 earthquake occurred off the coast of Indonesia’s West Java, triggering a tsunami that killed 668 people, injured at least 1,438 and left about 74,000 people homeless.

    On April 2, 2007, more than 50 people died and thousands of people were evacuated in the Solomon Islands when the area was hit by a tsunami caused by a magnitude-8.0 earthquake.

    On Sep 29, 2009, a strong earthquake measuring 8.0 on the Richter scale struck the Pacific island nation of Samoa, causing a tsunami that killed at least 184 people.

    On Jan 4, 2010, two powerful earthquakes measuring 6.5 and 7.2 on the Richter scale hit the western part of the Solomon Islands, followed by a number of smaller quakes. It triggered a tsunami that left about 1,000 homeless.

    On Feb 27, 2010, an 8.8-magnitude earthquake hit Chile, triggering tsunami warnings along the coasts of the Pacific Ocean.

    On Oct 25, 2010, at least 509 people were killed and 21 went missing after a tsunami unleashed by a 7.2 magnitude quake jolted the island of Sumatra, Indonesia.

  125. Steve, it appears that you believe that God regularly, supernaturally intervenes to heal people of back problems. Why does he not appear to act in response to the prayers of sexual abuse victims?

  126. I don’t think you know your Bible very well, Bones. If you did you’d already know what is happening, and that there were clear warnings, and how to respond.

    Matthew 24
    6 “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
    8 “All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    But these escalating events are not evidence that God is detached, or tat he doesn’t heal, and especially that he doesn’t answer prayer.

    They are signs. We are warned to get our lives right with God. Christians are sent to preach the gospel of peace so people have the choice to receive or reject Christ.

  127. What we have of course is Steven taking a part of my post which was an attempt to make some sense of Jack’s question. That shitty things happen to people around the world for no apparent reason and God doesn’t help them (eg Christian kids getting abused) but does heal a leg that’s shorter than the other one when asked.

    What sort of God is that Joe asked?

    It of course was far easier for Steven to latch onto one part of my comment whilst ignoring Jack’s question. Which you continue to do btw.

    All your responses showed is how idiotic yours and Roundhouse’s theology is. Of course if you build next to a volcano than you have a pretty high chance of the volcano erupting. No kidding. If you swim in crocodile infested waters you might get eaten by crocs. WOW. Really!

    Doesn’t explain instances like the guy whose bedroom disappeared into a sinkhole last week with him in it. You don’t think the guy’s brother wasn’t praying for him to get out?

    It appears you don’t have an answer and I don’t either.

    Joe’s answer of just ignoring the question is probably the only answer there is.

    That and when we suffer God suffers with us.

  128. That and when we suffer God suffers with us.

    And that there is the only answer there is.

  129. “That and when we suffer God suffers with us.”

    “And that there is the only answer there is.”

    Which are the answers for a non-interventionist God. For those that believe in an interventionist God, please give me some way to understand the way He picks and chooses His interventions whilst still being omnipotent, omniscient and also loving?

  130. Sorry, but I thought that the intervention at the cross was sufficient for the redemption of all of creation..? Or did I miss something when I slipped and dropped my crack pipe under the couch of ignorance?
    The sacrifice of Christ at the hands of the the law (the pharisees under the control of the Roman empire) to fulfill the law and to ensure that God’s Justice is satisfied to redeem all of creation and have the centrepiece of His Creation (Mankind, created in His image) atoned for and sanctified to become brothers and heirs along with the firstborn of many sons… Now doesn’t that sound a bit like a plan?? Isn’t it up to us who are here on earth, living in this cesspool of humanity, to rise above the total depravity of all those around us and salvage those who have been abused, beaten, humiliated, despised and discriminated against? If we, who profess to be the chosen and anointed, cannot come to the immediate aid and assistance of those desperately crying out for fear of their lives, then we are just cowardly fools, trying to appease ourselves with hollow imaginations and pipe dreams… ah! found my pipe…

  131. Look, I see it like this, Jesus is seated on His throne at the right hand of God, we, being brothers and heirs are seated with Him. We, are also stuck out here on the third rock from the sun for the duration of our miserable lives with the promises laid out in the Last Will and Testimony of Jesus Christ being the only legal document available for us till we meet with Him in Glory.
    The choice is simple, we either accept what He has promised and stick to the teachings He has left us with, which is to look after the orphans, and feed the hungry, the deserted and the widowed. To heal the sick and diseased, to give hope and a future to those under oppression or being mistreated, abused, humiliated, despised.
    C’mon guys, if we who claim to be sons of God, mercenaries of grace, cannot bend down to pick up someone who has fallen or been trodden under, then how can we expect our God of mercy to accept us? Which way will the drafting gate swing, with the sheep? Or with the goats?

  132. I think I agree with most of what you say Joe, which seems to be that we need to be the ones who will provide God’s care and concern for others. But it is still unclear to me whether you believe in any divine, supernatural intervention. Where do you stand on this?

  133. Yes and Amen! I absolutely believe in divine intervention, divine appointments, divine deliverance… I believe that for every child calling out for help, every desperate and lonely soul on the brink of taking their own life, there is some mis-guided Christian hearing a prompt from God to intervene and correct a wrong that is being totally ignored.
    I believe that a religious spirit has usurped the Power and Authority of the Sons of God that is made to set captives free and bring the evil to justice. I believe that mostly the Church has become so fearful of man, and manmade rules and regulations that it just wants to bury it’s head under the sand and pretend that the pain, suffering, abuse, humiliation and discrimination is not happening, because it is too gutless to stand on the foundation of God. Meanwhile, the abomination of God’s creation, (Men behaving and taking on the relational role of women, and women, taking on the relational role of men, in homosexual relationships) within the walls of His Holy place of Worship, are allowed to continue their practice, while babies are being slaughtered within the womb and even after birth… But little kids are still being raped every single night… and the PW church of humanity is to pathetic to help out… they want at least 3 forms of confirmation and positive leading from the Holy Spirit, and extensive training and prayer, together with a week of solid prayer and fasting before even thinking about knocking on that door, next door… where the muffled screams of that little kid with the big sad scowl on her face lives.
    Jack, buddy. I know where you are coming from… I too would march into hell for a heavenly cause… Just have faith. All of creation is groaning, earnestly waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God…
    God does hear our prayers. He hears the prayers of those little kids too. He sends his people to intervene in a supernatural way, but most of His orders fall on deaf ears and hardened hearts… “They worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me…”

    The church has lost it’s nuts! Castrated, emasculated like a worthless bull-calf. Where are the Sons of God? Where are the warriors? Who will stand against this uncircumcised Philistine that challenges the Sons of the Most High God?
    Who will don their Armour and take up the sword and stand with me?

  134. In fact, Bones, what Jack’s doing is throwing up hypotheticals which challenge God and the Word. If he spent more time in the Word and less being concerned about other people’s performances he’d know exactly what the issues are and why things happen the way they do.

    if you spent more time studying and less being horrible to people you’d also have more answers. They are not simple to explain in one comment, and take a while to both understand and relate.

    Why attempt, as I have, to slowly explain what is happening when you deliberately misunderstand and misrepresent what is being said and throw out extreme comparisons which make people throw up their hands in despair at your wanton contrariness?

    He also uses the term ‘intervention’ which, as you should know isn’t the way healing happens under the New Testament. I’ll let you work that out.

    He belittles the healing ministry by producing unconnected scenarios which are far more extreme and attempts to make some kind of equivalence.

    You leap unto his bandwagon and produce even more extreme examples, one so rare even you admit it’s only taken pace twice in your lifetime, which we are warned will take place and to not be troubled about. This doesn’t mean don’t care, but not to let ourselves be discouraged. God has told us they will take place.

    This doesn’t mean he has withdrawn his will to answer prayer or heal, or set people free. it means he has let us know terrible stuff will happen to people, and it is a sign of the times. The earth is going through an upheaval and people are affected. Best to be right with Him, then, isn’t it?

    Jack’s questions on abuse are nothing to do with the thread. I may look at answering, but I suspect they are a curve ball and he has a few more up his sleeve. This thread is about healing evangelism.

  135. If the only solution you can come up with is that when we suffer God suffers with us, you are missing quite a lot of scripture to reach that conclusion.

    I think there are times when this is the case, but we are discussing healing here and whether God heals today.

    The evidence I have seen is that he does. The Word certainly tells us he does. I see no reason why the Word is either wrong or has ended. Did God heal in Jesus day on earth? Yes. Did he heal after Jesus ascended? Yes. have people ever been healed since the last of Jesus’ nominated Apostles went to be with the Lord? Yes.

    Is, therefore, God suffering with us if we are healed? No. He is healing us and alleviating suffering. Are their people who do not receive healing? Yes. The reasons are many, but there are clearly people who are not healed, or the hospitals would be cleared out and there would be no sickness.

    Is God suffering with them? No. Will he comfort them? Yes, but that is not suffering with, that is empathising with. So the terminology is wrong, and the concept is wrong.

    Is healing interventionist? I think Jack has used this term as a detour and it is a wrong concept. Healing is a cure for an ailment. It can come in many different ways. It can come through therapy, medicine , long or short term treatment, or by simple rest and correct diet, exercise, even. Is this interventionist? No, it is cure, it is application of therapeutic means of bringing about a change in the body, mind or physical functions of a human being.

    healing, then, is a speeding up of the process. Does it come through prayer? In a manner of speaking, but it generally comes through application of the gifts of the Spirit, by working of miracles, gifts of healing, or by laying on of hands of believers, or anointing oil of elders. There are various ways of applying the cure, including speaking the Word.

    So healing is no different in concept or approach to medical cures. Whether you call it interventionist is a matter for debate. Is medical science or hospital care interventionist, or is it application of therapeutic care which produces health or wellbeing in the life of a patient?

    Does the doctor or nurse suffer with us? Only if you consider empathy or sympathy to be suffering, but generally the GP or nurse is expected to be in good health themselves when applying the therapy, so, in this way, they are not suffering with, but applying the care which will improve the wellbeing of the patient and improve their chances of both survival an recovery.

    So, no, God doesn’t suffer with a sick person. He works with. He stands alongside. He heals. He encourages. He advises. But he cannot suffer sickness. He is God.

  136. So, no, God doesn’t suffer with a sick person. He works with. He stands alongside. He heals. He encourages. He advises. But he cannot suffer sickness. He is God.

    Thank you for clearing that up for us Dr Semantic’s, there was Bones and I thinking God had every disease under the sun, broken bones, and a nasty cough, all so Gis could suffer with us. We had no idea that God is spirit and doesn’t have a body. Oh thank you God for giving us a scholar such as Steve!

    Apart from all that, well said. I just, as I’ve said many times, can not believe in divine healing. I have been around Pentecostal churches for many many years and have never seen one single legitimate healing or miracle.

  137. Hmmm, Greg. You have assumed a pseudonym that indicates that you are a searching and exploring type, is this for a purpose? I am interested to know, because though you have assumed this character, you do not “Explore” as such.
    1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. Healing is a done deal! You are quick to preach redemption, reconciliation and salvation at the cross, but don’t give any credit to the healing work done at the whipping post.
    The reason that you don’t see healing is because YOU don’t believe God! His word tells us, His very own Son commands us – “…those who believe, will … lay hands on the sick and they SHALL recover..” Matt 15.
    Greg, buy yourself a ticket to Darwin. When you get there, look up Roger Latham. Roger has a team of young men and their families that travel to the communities of indigenous people to spread the gospel and to HEAL. They have been so successful and have seen countless divine healings. A couple of months ago they went to Port Keats where God was moving in great power through the communities. A film crew came to do a documentary on the impact of alcohol in the tribal lands, but all they saw were sober, healed Jesus-filled indigenous people on fire for God.
    There are 2 young men from South Australia, Tim and Jake, who spend a lot of time at the Hospitals, praying for the sick. The doctors in Darwin know these guys very well and are happy to see these guys come in and empty the beds. At Easter, two more families will be moving to Darwin from here, Jason and his wife and 10 children, and Adrian with his wife and 5 children. Adrian will be taking a 54 seat coach with him to be used for travelling out with Roger and his team to these remote communities.
    Go on Greg, live up to your pseudonym, go and explore what God IS doing, go and witness what these guys have witnessed – eyes growing back, amputated limbs growing back, paralysis healed, coma patients waking up, over 12 000 tribal people becoming completely healed of alcohol and drug dependency and turning into on-fire Christians. Storms that have been diverted! Man, I hear some of the stories my friends tell me and am just awestruck! You don’t believe in divine healing? Then go, see for yourself.
    By his stripes you WERE healed! It’s already done.

  138. Greg,
    that God is spirit and doesn’t have a body

    Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form. The essence of faith in God is to recognise that Jesus came in the flesh, as the Word made flesh.

    This is important, and no semantic, because he is able to empathise with our infirmities.

    Hebrews 4
    14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
    15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
    16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

    Sympathise – to have feeling or, to have compassion on.

    But he knows our feelings because he lived in the flesh.

    can not believe in divine healing

    So you don’t believe Jesus healed the sick? Or the disciples? Or that Jesus commissioned believers to pray for the sick? Or that James instructed that sick people call for the elders of the church t anoint them with oil?

    Or that the Holy Spirit distributes the manifestations, including gifts of healings and working of miracles, to each member of the Body, severally, as He wills?

    Or that Jesus’ bruising was also for our healing, or that Jesus, who healed all who came to him when he walked the earth, fulfilling prophecy, is the same yesterday, and today, and forever?

    Or that God is known as Jehovah Rafa, the Lord Our Healer,and changes not?

    I’m sorry, mate. Your not believing in healing is not evidence that it doesn’t take place.

  139. Hey Joe! That’s interesting about people going out to the communities in the Top End. We went out there too and saw amazing things, including creative miracles, and demonised delivered, just like the days Jesus walked the earth, or the Book of Acts.

    The people are so open to God that healing and deliverance take place on a regular basis, so I can concur with what you say.

    We also saw it in WA, in the Kimberly and Pilbarra. We still have churches established there because God has moved in power, and now we have indigenous leaders being trained up.

    The difference is simple faith. Westerners are very sceptical and need far more evidence before they’ll trust God. It’s as simple as that. So we don’t see as much happening in the churches or towns of more European run communities as we do in indigenous communities.

    The big issue, though, is learning how to sustain the consistency of the people after the meetings to develop strong churches.

    It’s almost a let down returning to Western based churches after a trip, but we have to keep on preaching the Word and praying for people to open up their hearts to God’s will and power.

    I recently returned from a trip to Africa, and saw the same simple faith there, and incredible things take place. Then in UK it’s as though there is no God amongst some of the Europeans! So there must be a strong connection between faith, the Word preached and being able to receive all that God promises without overly questioning scripture. That is all I can say on it by way of explanation of why God seems to move in some places but not others.

  140. To me it’s obvious that faith is important when it comes to healing and seeing prayers answered.
    Read the gospels and the amount of times Jesus talks about faith and believing when people were healed is staggering.

    The problem these days is that so many people have attacked faith healers by accusing them of hurting people by saying they never had enough faith, that now Christians are too afraid to talk about faith.

    Some Christians believe healing isn’t true because they don’t see evidence that meets their standards. BUt they believe that people’s lives change through the a life in Christ.

    But, to be honest guys, I could say that Christianity’s claims about changed lives are bunk by looking at the lives of some people here too.

    Bones says that he knows God. I don’t see any evidence at all that Bones has any life of God in him at all.

    Just being honest.

    And Bones, I don’t think an atheist would be convinced.

    Forget about healing and prosperity. I don’t see better lives even.

    The non-Christians around me have cleaner speech, insult and attack less, and instead of spending their time attacking other people, they just live their lives.

    So, if healing is bunk, so is the fruit of the Spirit. Show me!

    Show me proof!

    All I see are foul-mouthed, belligerent, hateful religionists.

  141. In 2010 I worked in Yuendumu building a dialysis unit for the Yappa community. There were 17 different congregations in that community! There were church meetings 7 nights a week – often 2 or 3 in the same street, at the same time, and they would crank up their own music and amplifiers to try to drown out the singing from the meeting down the road. Every night there was a gospel message in the native tongue (Walpiri) carried through the community. The Tanimi desert rung with strains of “Just as I am, without one plea…” and “Jesus take me as I am…” but it was hard to see where this was having a lasting impact on the community.

    After work on the dialysis unit was completed, I returned to SA where I would hear of riots and killings in that community. But I guarantee that the nightly meetings would still take place and the indigenous people would still come and want to find some of the Power that is promised in the Gospel.

    I guess that this is what people are really looking for, proof of the Power of God. I have sat in on many a message that had absolutely no power in it at all. There wasn’t even enough to blow out a match! But then again I have heard the truth of the gospel spoken in very simple terms that could move mountains!

    I think an important thing we are missing is that we need to disciple new converts, as instructed in Matt 28, “Go and make disciples of all nations…” Those who bring the word of truth, (1Tim2:3-4) need need to ensure that the good seed that has been planted is being watered and fertilised to produce good fruit for the harvest.

  142. Jack, I don’t see what you are driving at with your questions on abuse. Surely the innocent are victims of sin. It is a terrible crime, because it targets the vulnerable, which makes it the whole of society’s responsibility to create and maintain safeguards which protect those at risk.

    I don’t see why this is evidence that God doesn’t heal, or answer prayer, any more than the presence of premeditated violence, terrorist acts, unsafe driving practices, drunkenness and drug dealing, wife bashing, bullying, and whole host of other terrible crimes against victims, including murder, theft, rape, assault, adultery and imposition of slavery are evidence that God doesn’t care for people, or hasn’t provided everything we need in His Word and by His Spirit to deal with each and every issue through repentance, change and obedience to His will.

    These are not evidence that God is ignoring us, but that sin is rife in our community, and that people are more interested in disobeying God’s commands than complying and seeing His will and Word bring healing to them and to their communities.

    As he said to Israel, “if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.”

    So the issue you have isn’t with God, but with people, and with sin. Those who are abused are victims of people who choose to gratify themselves at the expense of innocence. They will be dealt with by God, but not in the way you are proposing. His wrath is reserved for them, unless they repent, because his long-suffering is also at play here.

    The other issue is the work of Satan. Bones and Greg will now remind us all that they don’t believe in the devil or Satan, but that is by the by. Nevertheless, he s responsible for all that is evil in man, and the father of hatred, murder and theft. He is the tempter and the manipulator of men, and is already judged.

    If God intervened in avery incident of sin, there would, of course, be no sin, because i he stops one incident he must stop them all, but we would not have a free will, or choice, would be robotic, would not need salvation, would all be free from sin, but that is not how t works.

    God doesn’t intervene in these things. He expects us, in our own conscience, to intervene on our own behalf, to set up safeguards for the innocent, to provide laws which prevent bad things from happening wherever possible, to abide by civil law, to obey God, the know God, to know His Word, to know His will, and thereby create a better society.

    And on these things he has given ample and precise warning and instruction.

    But, since he has promised healing in His word, he is still the Healer.

  143. Q: Acts 3, Peter and John didn’t tell the beggar on his mat at the gates that he needed to have faith. Faith had nothing at all to do with HIS particular healing. they just said “Look at me! I don’t have any money, but I do have authority and Power in the name of Jesus!” So they grabbed him by the hand and pulled him to his feet and he was healed.
    When Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, there was no question about Lazarus’ faith – he had none at all!
    The faith of the Centurian’s servant was never raised when Jesus healed him.
    There was that bloke at the pool of Bethsaida that was still whinging and moaning when Jesus came to heal him – he had no faith at all, yet he was still healed.

    Q, You are so right. The Bible tells us that Believers will lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. So in order to heal, First we need to believe that Jesus does still heal!! and if after laying hands on someone and they are not healed, then it has nothing to do with the sick person, but rather it is the responsibility of the person who laid their hands on them.

    It is not the faith of the sick person, but the believing of the praying person.

    Fruit of the Spirit? If the spirit of the sinful nature is still alive in a person, then the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in that person. We need to be transformed by the renewing of our mind and put to death the pre-redemption spirit of sin and be filled with the Spirit of Him that raised Jesus from the dead.
    The fruit you see in a person reflects the the spirit that dwells in that person. Is it a self-seeking carnal spirit? Or is it a spirit of love? (John 13:35) By this will all men know that you are my disciples…

  144. I think you should read the whole passage and take note of verse 16, Joe, before going on.

    Acts 3
    16 “And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.”

    And it was the centurion’s faith which caused his servant to be healed.

    Lazarus was raised from the dead, which is far more than healing. It is a miracle. It was Jesus’ obedience to the Father’s will to glorify His name which brought this about.

  145. So, if someone wants you to pray for them, and doesn’t get healed, you are quite within your right to tell them that they didn’t have enough faith?

    Man I wish I could reach through and slap you!

    In early 1998 my wife was carrying twins and after a few weeks when it was time for the first scan, we were told that they were “unviable” We prayed and prayed earnestly for the life of those two babies – absolutely convinced that they were going to survive, only to eventually have them removed. (She became pregnant again immediately afterwards and we now have a beautiful 14 year old daughter by His grace)
    When it was suggested that “we didn’t have enough faith…” it made my blood boil – those words are a sure-fire way of turning people away from Christianity, to have them never want to have anything to do with the God you believe in or the Jesus you serve.

    Man up Steve! The reason you don’t see healing is because you don’t believe! You still have your head stuck in the Old Covenant of law.. I suppose another reason that people don’t get healed is because of generational curses? Or un-repentant sin? Or that they haven’t prayed and fasted enough?

    Don’t conform to the ways of the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind! Throw away all those Old Covenant excuses and start living the truth..

    And don’t you ever, ever blame someone for not being healed – if you pray for someone and they aren’t healed, it’s not their fault, and God certainly isn’t at fault – so don’t tell them some BS story about “Maybe it’s God’s will… He might be trying to teach you something…” Crap! He’s trying to teach YOU something – that you have no faith!

  146. You’re being rather presumptuous on several counts there, Joe. That is a bad sign.

    I’ll leave you to work out why, since I’ve had enough of this site’s bad behaviour and have better things to do than let people cuss me out and misrepresent what I say.

    I see healing everywhere, by the way. I also see the need for faith exhibited throughout Jesus’ ministry. If you haven’ grasped that yet, I suggest you read it through again carefully, and never, please, accuse me of saying things to people I don’t.

    Otherwise. Have fun. Doing exploits.

  147. Joe, I don’t think any person needs to ever tell someone that they never had enough faith.

    I think you were a little hard on Steve. He’s simply saying that in the gospels Jesus often talked about the recipient’s faith.

    I can’t see a person like Steve ever hurting someone who is already hurting by saying they never had enough faith.

  148. One day we’ll meet, Greg, and your’s will be the red face, not mine, I’d rather keep it that way and retire on a good score.

    No hard feelings, mate.

    I hope you get through it OK!

    Love anyway!

  149. I have seen the effect on people who have gone to Pentecostal churches, had their hopes raised of healing, and then when it didnt happen been blamed for their lack of faith.

    A friend in a wheel-chair with cerebral palsy spent years at a mega-church wannabee, convinced that he would be healed. Several young christians latched on to him – wanting to see a healing to confirm their own faith. When it didnt happen they dropped him like a bag of cold spew, implying that there was something wrong with his faith.

    He happened to be a very tough minded individual that could pick himself up and make new friendships, but how many other disabled or sick people are able to do this?

    This is the other side of unrealistic faith and unguided enthusiasm – it damages relationships and it damages people.

  150. Jack, I understand your questions, and I often have the same ones.

    Probably everyday when I read the news, I wonder why some evil guy was able to get away with so much for decades, when some poor kid just seems to have been unlucky and died just because grandpa left the pool gate open , or Mum didn’t check behind the car that one time.

    And yeah, I know people who died on the way home from an early morning prayer meeting etc etc.

    But here’s a question. What kind of world would it have to be for you to accept that God is a god of love and also intervenes?

    Every prayer answered? So if the Christian young girl prays that the Uncle doesn’t come to abuse her, you would accept God as being love and intervening if the Uncle suddenly had a heart attack, or died, or God changed his mind?

    If all sickness were gone, and all murder and rape (which would mean that the possibility to sin in these ways would be removed), then you’d still have the problem of earthquakes and tsunamis.

    But even then I we all prayed “God may there be no tsunamis and earthquakes for the rest of 2013” and he answered that prayer, then what?

    If we prayed for protection over our families and then slipped off the roof, or fell off a cliff, could we still say “God if you are all powerful, and loving, why didn’t you stretch out your hand and cushion the fall?”

    I suppose we could. But having all prayers for the alleviaton of suffering would mean a totally different world and way of life wouldn’t it.

    The fact that you are even bothering to ask the question means that you aren’t convinced yet.

    My own personal theology is this and it probably puts me pretty close to a God doesn’t intervene much position.

    Based on the my life’s observances, I don’t see that God intervenes much unless there is a really good reason.

    If people want to steal, rape, kill, commit genocide, they can mostly do it. If someone, or a whole country wants to be rich or have super high safety standards, they can do it.

    God doesn’t seem to make a persons whole life go well automatically because they’re a nice guy. I’ve seen too many sick, poor good people, and too many rich healthy long-living ratbags to believe that.

    I believe that God answers prayer – but I think that prayer has to be intense, specific, and with no doubting but full of faith.

    And even then for reasons we don’t know it doesn’t work out the way you wanted.

    Which is why I understand Steve’s position. We can’t answer the why question completely, and don’t have enough time to even think about it, so it’s better to go out and do all that you know God wants you to do – and that includes praying for your own life and that of others.

    I’ve wasted years of my life, wanting to know why things happen or not happen.

    FOr me if someone is sick, I don’t accept that as God’s will. I would do everything – pray, get others to pray, command the sickness to go away (whether in Jesus’ name or my name), take medicine, have operations, fast, take a sauna – anything.

    And I will pray that my daughter doesn’t get sexually abused, and tell her to pray, but I’ll also do everything within my ability to make sure she isn’t in such a situation and tell her everything I know to avoid it using every means possible – from intelligence to deception to using a machine gun.

    If something ever happened to her, I wouldn’t want her asking why, why why and grieving for the rest of her life either.

    I believe that God is love and he answers prayer, but I also believe that whether my life goes well in every aspect will depend 90% on what I say and do – where I live, how I live, what I say, and what I don’t say.

    But if God being a God of love means that he will always answer prayer and intervene, then every Christian should pray tomorrow that manna will fall from heaven in Africa and that every person about to murder someone will either fall over dead or get paralyzed

    I don’t think it works that way.

    I realize I’m a borderline atheist, but I pretty well think that the world and what we do with it and each other is pretty much up to us.

    But, I also realize that I could do with more faith.

  151. Wazza. I have no doubt that that happens.

    But there have also been Catholics, and Buddhists and HIndus who have prayed for something and been disappointed.

    But while we speak there are no doubt Catholics, and Anglicans, and buddhists praying for their kids or their dad with cancer.

    If the real answer is that God isn’t going to do anything outside of current medical capabilities, then you probably need to tell people of all religions to stop praying.

    But even people without a religion who just believe in “spirituality” will pray for things, and then also believe that all things happen for a reason.

    I really don’t know many 100% atheists who don’t believe in anything. (though I’ve come close to that myself).

  152. @Greg I’m sure Steve will be back.

    Man, you really are a fighter!

    Addressing myself too — isn’t it just so hard not having the last word! lol

  153. Q “..if someone is sick, I don’t accept that as God’s will. I would do everything – anything.”

    We are taught to pray “Our Father… Your Kingdom come, Your will be done – here on earth, just as it is in Heaven.”

    Jack, Q, I don’t believe that God allows Cancer or Alzheimer’s in His Kingdom. And I know that there are no children being abused in His Kingdom.

    Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy. The thief that breaks into your house or robs a servo doesn’t have authority, power or permission to do these things, neither does satan, Jesus has “All authority in Heaven and on Earth…” which means that satan has none, but he does this to cause as much mayhem as he can in the hope that he will turn as many people away from God in the process.

    I know that it grieves God to see what goes on – but He has already told us what we should do about it!

  154. There’s probably little point in responding to Steve if he really has ‘left the building’, but I will just say thanks for at least trying to answer my questions. I though what I was asking was quite clear and simple. You said that I “belittle the healing ministry by producing unconnected scenarios which are far more extreme and attempts to make some kind of equivalence.” I had no intention of belittling healing ministries, but just wanted to work out the apparent inconsistencies in the ‘yes’ and ‘no’ answers that appear to be given by God.

    Thanks for your response Q. For me, an interventionist God who does so in seemingly random ways, picking and choosing the yes and no answers, cannot mesh with any concept of a loving God. For me only a totally non-interventionist God makes sense.

    Joe, the comments the you know people who have seen “eyes growing back, amputated limbs growing back, paralysis healed” interest me. These types of things would by truly miraculous, so i am wondering if you can provide any types of evidence (before and after photos, medical reports) to back these claims up?

    Wazza2, I have seen and heard similar stories in the past regarding people being told that it is their lack of faith that keeps them from being healed. It’s bad enough that they are in the situation that they are in, but for the church to add to their suffering by blaming them for it is disgusting.

  155. Jack, I’ll apologize on behalf of Steve. He’s had a lot of battles here, and I think he was unnecessarily hard on you, because he misunderstood your intent. It’s probably battle fatigue! lol

    So, if you have concluded that God is totally non-interventionist, that means you will never pray for anything ever?

    And then what makes you think that God exists anyway.

    Oh, and Steve may have left the building, but like Evis he just loves the stage – so he’ll be back.

    Calling Steve…is anyone home….

    As for picking and choosing, from a biblical perspective, maybe sometimes God was going to give a yes, but we gave up.

    I’m starting from an assumption that the bible is true of course.

    But Jesus, told us to ask and keep on asking. james says that if we waver we shouldn’t expect anything from The Lord. That seems harsh and unfair, and leave us wondering why God makes that demand – but it’s there.

    And many Christians have a faith that even if they ask for something believing it’t best for them, there are times when an all-knowing Heavenly Father doesn’t grant a request in our best interests – like a child doesn’t get everything it wants.

    (not ready or able to answer every “But what about in this case?” question).

    The question of knowing whether we should have kept praying or just that it wasn’t God’s will, is the million dollar question.

    But, I wouldn’t give up trying to get better, so I take it that good things are God’s will. I see sickness, grinding poverty, rape, murder as not good.
    In that sense my theology is simple -but very human.

    And I’m with you about being interested in evidence. If anyone has some really good youtubes of dramatic healings that would convince anyone, I’d love to know about them.

  156. Did you like your Charactor on Expendables 7 Q?

    I personaly find the whole idea of prayer, the way most understand it, quite useless. Mostly it is like talking into air -I still do it at the meal table with my family as an attitude of thanksgiving adn gratitude – but I don’t ‘pray’ qas such anymore.

  157. haha Greg. I didn’t notice the first time.!

    Well I’m a big Arnold fan, but if not him then Dolph is cool.
    He’s the best looking one too!

    Maybe I need a Russian accent.

    Well done!

    But why did Bones get to be Arnie??!?!?!??!?!?!?

    Because he’s numero uno?

    Or because he has problems keeping his hands off women?
    That must be it.

    Dolph eh? Yeah, I must admit there is a resemblance.

    (But prayer is talking into the air? )

  158. Q, you asked “So, if you have concluded that God is totally non-interventionist, that means you will never pray for anything ever?”

    Haven’t prayed for quite some time, and not sure if there is really any point.

    You also asked “And then what makes you think that God exists anyway.”

    This is one of the big questions that I continue to struggle with. To think that a creator God does not exist is a difficult concept, however the letting go of a belief in most of the traditional aspects of the Christian God is something that has been a gradual progression for me.

    Greg, I have got the impression from other posts that you are in sort of ministry position, but you say that you do not pray. I am interested in how that works for you, particularly in the sense of you being involved in and/or leading church groups.

  159. Gregory, I never said your eternal soul was lost.

    Though come to think of it….it might have gone walkabout?

  160. “Greg, I have got the impression from other posts that you are in sort of ministry position, but you say that you do not pray. I am interested in how that works for you, particularly in the sense of you being involved in and/or leading church groups.”

    My Brother Jack, can you please hold seminars here on how to talk with civility and decorum?

    So far you have been all class. Hope you don’t lose that.

  161. I didn’t say I don’t pray, I said I don’t, at least not as most would recognize it. Mine is probably more focused meditation than what gets called prayer.

  162. Back to John Mellor’s healing ministry- is it from God or not?

    I first met this man in 2007 and have been to 4 of his healing meetings (North Queensland, Nambour, and Melbourne). I have attempted to speak with him a number of times and found him aloof.

    Nowhere in the Scriptures does anybody spend their entire ministry healing people 100% of the time; like a freak show.

    When Christ and His disciples healed a sick person, they were totally healed of their sickness. There was no talk of them losing their healing or having to come back many times before getting healed.

    John Mellor is arrogant towards God and heals according to his own desires. “Come on Gawd, more to the elbow”, Come on Gawd, more to the shoulder”, and so on. .. . John tells God how to heal.

    Moses was arrogant towards God and was not allowed to enter the Promised Land because he struck the rock. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find anybody ever speaking to God like John Mellor does.

    John Mellor believes that he needs a spiritual covering from a church and not from Christ Jesus. This is a dangerous position for anybody to take; as the true Spiritual covering comes from being born of the Spirit of God.

    Be careful, the curtain was torn and not by man but by God Himself. Ask God for wisdom and revelation that you may come to know Him better, for this is His will for you.

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