Danny Nalliah – Bible Smuggler

Danny Nalliah loves to tell a good story, and he doesn’t seem too concerned about letting the truth get in the way of the telling!  According to Nalliah he spent two years in Saudi Arabia in the 1990’s smuggling bibles into that country.  He claims that he had over 400 bibles sitting on a table when Saudi Soldiers came along but that God made them blind to the bibles and left without arresting Nahliah.  He claims they never entered the building.

Yet In the SMH sotry I posted on another thread Nahlia told the story like this: One night 20 soldiers ”gave the dreaded knock on the door”. There were 400 Bibles stacked on his lounge room floor. His wife and children were sleeping in their beds. Calling on God, he says he confused the soldiers minds with prayer – such that they forgot why they were there – and they left soon after. This, too, was a miracle. At the Rise Up Australia Party launch, he reduced this story to one line: ”In Saudi Arabia, my wife was nearly raped and killed.”

So which was it Danny – the knocked and knocked but couldn’t come in, or they came in and were blinded by God to the bibles or your wife was nearly raped?  Which story Danny – pick one and stick with it.

In one interview Nalliah claims that “It’s a very well-known fact that if you have a Bible at customs when you enter the airport, and if they find the Bible, that the Bible is taken and put in the shredder,” He goes on to say, “If you have more than one Bible you will be taken into custody, and if you have a quantity of Bibles you will be given 70 lashes for sure – you could even be executed.”

What Danny claims as a well-known fact is in fact a lie.  You will not be executed for having quantities of bibles – as a foreign national you would be deported – you might spend some time in gaol – perhaps severla years, you would not be excecuted.

<a href=”http://ukinsaudiarabia.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-saudi-arabia/”>THIS</a> UK diplomatic web site spells out what could happen –and it is clear that there is no problem at all for a foreign national to carry their own bible into the country with them – it will not be confiscated and it will not be shredded. “Severe punishment (imprisonment and deportation) can result should such activities come to the attention of the authorities. The authorities also stamp firmly on attempts at proselytisation or conversion of Muslims to Christianity. (However, non-Muslims are free to worship in their own homes).” Hmmm…no sign of getting 70 lashes for having more than some arbitrary amount of bibles in your possession.

If indeed Nahlia was even in Saudi Arabia, and if indeed he was ever smuggling bibles, and if indeed he ever had as many as 400 (exceedingly doubtful) he was never at risk of his life and he was never at risk of getting lashed.

Danny loved a particular Islamic convert to Chrsitianity, one Nasir Ahmadi and his wife Zahra who  immigrated to Australia from Iran and converted from Islam to Christianity. Zahra changed her name to ‘Mandy’ and both she and her husband then dedicated their lives to converting Muslims to Christianity.

On the 18th of December 2011, Nasir claimed that his wife had gone missing. He, and his church colleagues (especially Danny Nahlia) started claiming that she had been kidnapped by Muslims. This allegation gathered so much momentum that it was presented in the mainstream media (for example, this article from SMH).

The article states:

THE husband and friends of an Iranian woman missing in Victoria since December 16 fear she has been abducted by Muslim hardliners because of her attempts to convert Muslims to Christianity….

Danny Nalliah sent an email to his mailing list calling for ”urgent prayer” for Mandi and the family. He said he had known the family for eight years and they took a leading role in helping Muslim asylum seekers.

Nalliah told the Herald Mrs Ahmadi ”really stuck her neck out” trying to convert Muslims and her husband was sometimes very worried for her. He said her zeal had come to the attention of militants, possibly in Iran itself.

So Danny Nalliah had another go at Muslims, apparently they’re  all so violent and Nasir was a wonderful example of a Muslim that embraced a ‘better’ way of living. This poor man’s wife had been kidnapped by those violent Muslims for converting them to Christianity and sooner or later the power of prayer would turn up some clues or, better yet, her safe return.

Sadly, Nasir wasn’t telling the truth. Detectives in Victoria dug up a newly laid concrete slab at the Ahmadi family home and found Zahra’s remains underneath. Within a few hours, Nasir confessed to killing his wife. The sad conclusion to this horrible story can be found here

Ahmadi had reported Zahara missing two days after she vanished on December 16 last year.

Seems Danny is so caught up in extremist claims of his own that he can’t recognise others doing the same as him.


285 thoughts on “Danny Nalliah – Bible Smuggler

  1. Heh. So smuggling Bibles is like having drugs. If you have a small amount, you get charged with possession; if you have too many you get charged with intent to distribute. 🙂

  2. Greg, can’t you leave it alone? Geez man, you really go after people.
    Your spitefulness is really pathetic.
    You are obsessed.

  3. Spitefulness? What? Get over yourself – this is a blog – we report stuff – I’m putting up stuff for people to make their own judgements about Danny – its all up to the reader to determine how they fel about him

  4. Was Steve being Spiteful and pathetic when he ran about 5 posts in a row on te Catholic Church?

  5. Okay, I don’t know whether Nallian had 400 bibles in his room or not. And I have no evidence whether or not he lived in Saudi Arabia even.

    But. let’s look at this.

    Is it feasible that he lived in Saudi Arabia? Of course.
    Is it feasible that he had 400 bibles in his possession? Of course.
    Is it feasible that police came to his building and left before entering? Of course.

    Could both accounts be of the same story? Why not?
    In one, he says they were “blinded” and didn’t enter the room. In the next he said they forgot why they were there and left.
    Maybe, there just the same way of saying that police came, knocked on his door and left? I don’t know. But, I don’t immediately think he’s a liar.

    As for 400 bibles. That’s totally feasible. First, they could have been pocket-size New Testaments. Or they could have been full size large Bibles that were brought into his house on different occasions. Many Christians have been involved in bringing in bibles or Christian literature into countries where they aren’t allowed. They take in bibles of all different sizes and often people take in a few each and take them to one central place first.

    So yes, sometimes it may be have similarities with taking in drugs.

    As for the dispute about penalties for possession of Bibles.

    Maybe if you had experience in living in different countries you would know that laws change over time, and also that there is often incredible inconsistency in how laws are enforced. Talk to people in China and you’ll realize that there is a huge variety in how Christians are treated, and how much they can get away with.

    Go live in Saudi Arabia or China or many other countries and you’ll realize that you are often at the mercy of each particular official.

    Let me quote from Christianity Today

    “In its most recent report on religious freedom around the world, the State Department said, “Customs officials routinely open mail and shipments to search for contraband, including…non-Muslim materials, such as Bibles and religious videotapes,” it said. “Such materials are subject to confiscation, although rules appear to be applied arbitrarily.”

    In addition, the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, an independent watchdog set up under the 1998 International Religious Freedom Act, in a 2003 report on Saudi Arabia said: “Customs officials regularly confiscate Bibles and other religious material when Christian foreign workers arrive at the airport from their home countries initially or return from a vacation.”

    Inquiries sent to the Saudi Embassy in Washington and the Saudi Information Ministry in Riyadh, about the legality of Bibles and about the shredder claims have not been answered. ”

    That is some evidence of what I’ve just explained.

    Now if you like, can do lots of posts about the lies and mis-information of the State Dept, the IRF commission, or Christianity Today. Go ahead. The situation is often fluid and ambiguous when it comes to things like this. And I don’t know for sure what things were like in the 90’s either.

    But, he is not the only one who has said that Bibles are confiscated. It also often depends where you live. Living in a big international compound is often different to living among the regular people.
    Bibles in Arabic may be a different issue to foreign language Bibles.
    Having multiple bibles in arabic would probably most certainly cause trouble. And, yes, whether foreigner or not, it’s conceivable that you could end up in jail, and be given lashes.

    And for those who don’t know about different countries in the world, what happens in prison often stays in prison.

    If you talked with some people with experience in some of these countries you might understand more

  6. @Greg

    You may very well be posting these articles to generate discussion and for others to make their own judgements, but your own judgements, spite and opinions are plain to see in what you write. You are writing from a position of judge, jury and executioner, and if anyone does have a differing opinion you shoot them down. On evidence I’d say that your comment above to DoC was not the truth, and that your sole intent is to tear down and criticise. That’s my judgement anyway.

  7. 5 posts in a row about doctrine covering thousands of years affecting the spiritual life of millions?
    And probably after a series of posts attacking individuals and churches?

    To me that’s different from calling a man an idiot, and questioning whether he even lived in a country.

    But it still amazes me that a man with such a history like you is so obsessed with criticizing and attacking other people. Bewildering.

  8. Greg, have you ever lived in an Asian or Middle Eastern country. Or a communist country? Things are very different there.

  9. I lived in Saudi Arabia in the 1980’s for a little under a year.

    You don’t know what you’re talking about Greg.

  10. No. I have to correct that. It was 1992. There were still names of soldiers listed as MIA on the walls of a building I worked in. It was after Gulf War I.

    See; when you retell an experience stuff like a date/ or was something before or after something else you did at around about the same time can get muddled. If its thirty years ago you can jump around a bit with narrative. Its still that same event you’re talking about

    Jurists know people are lying when their stories agree “too perfectly” – its a sure sign of collusion with intent to deceive.

    Ps. Danny’s skin color would have been a factor in how he was dealt with. White westerners or those on a British or American passport carrying a quantity of bibles would have perhaps simply been deported – quickly enough.

    Someone of Pakistani coloring/ origin from a perceived Islamic state might have run a very different set of risks.

    Pay rates for contracts for foreign workers were a skin color thing. The work of Philipino or Turks wasn’t equal pay to the same work done by British or Americans – no where near it. That’s the way it was. Philipinos got next to no support diplomatically if they were accused or suspected of a crime.

    My question is how did he have his family there at all if he was a foreign worker. For non executive staff family visa were very rare. Did he marry while in Saudia? You’re asking the wrong questions.

  11. I’m sorry – but there is no record anywhere of anyone ever having been executed in Saudi Arabia for smuggling bibles – no-one. If you are caught doing things like that you will be incarcerated and deported – not executed – you might get roughed up – MIGHT – but you will get deported. You PG do not konw what you are talking about – nor do you Q

    Danny may not be lying – but he is stretching the truth a vast amount – he was never a risk opf being executed adn his wife was never at risk of being raped. He stretches the truth and is liberal when telling stories. So what if I do;nt like him – so what if my disdain for him shines through – arguie against it if you disagree – tell me why he is not what I say he is. Tell me why you think he’s telling the truth.

  12. The risks for bible smugglers are very minimal – but the risks for the nationals of where they are smuggling are very very real.

  13. Why would anyone change their story.

    On the page you posted last week you spelled Nalliah as such.

    On this masthead you spell it

    1. Nalliah
    2. Nahliah
    3. Nahlia
    in quick succession. Are the differences trivial? Maybe.

    It is possible a husband and wife would each get a contract for some different position to which they applied at the same time and travel on different contracts? But how would children be allowed in?

    Voicing these objections/ concerns about the veracity of the report how many times have you tried to contact Mr Nalliah for a comment?

    Re: Freedom to meet/ practice religion in your own home. No. If the “underground” church met they would all have very staggered times arriving or departing a building. If everyone arrived somewhere at once it would arouse suspicions/ result in a raid. Arrests, jail, deportation.
    Freedom didn’t extend to being able to hold a prayer group or bible study in your own home. allah wouldn’t have approved of liberties like those. allah isn’t like that, at all.

  14. If Danny’s wife were a convert from Islam, or they thought Danny had come into the country as an Muslim and converted to Christianity he could have been liable to execution under their blaspheme laws.

    Re: Honour?

    We were told by other expats if you have an accident/ car accident with a Saudi national it is “your” fault. It doesn’t matter what happens – its your fault. You will pay. End of story.

    In my one appearance in a Saudi district court I was denied the right to buy/ own a car because, presumably I was an unbelieving non national. I’ll never know the details because I had an interpreter who may not have given me the real story. In any case I got to use the car but someone else had to remain the owner and I couldn’t leave the country with it.

  15. just musing Greg, but any other time and place in history the liberal left, multi cultists would call arbitrary body cavity search rape.

    Still want to know what company he was with/ what job description. Getting a family into Saudia is unheard of in circles I moved in. Expats could marry within Saudi by consent of employers I believe – memory is vague on that one. Two British friends met over there and wanted to marry. I believe they were approved. Left without ever hearing about it.
    cheers

  16. Several broken bones and multiple wounds to a filipino ….

    but, surprise, surprise, the Dutchman got better treatment. – now why is that?

    http://www.bpnews.net/printerfriendly.asp?ID=2381

    so we don’t know about any dead ones? There’s an old expression about historical and forensic evidence.
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
    Hard to prove a negative anything.

    I can’t name two people who ever starved to death. I suspect starvation has happened – Africa, big continent someone must have died there – but I can’t name two.

  17. Anyway, the big issue needs to be addressed. Christians are persecuted all through the Middle East. And they are fleeing.

    This website seems to spend a lot of time convincing everyone of how good Islam is, and how bad Christians are.

    Actually do some research guys – you don’t need to go very deep to know that Christians are being killed persecuted and made to flee from many countries.

    It’s terrible. And we Christians do little about it – except for Bones who searches the web for evidence that some Muslims are suffering too and thinks that building more mosques might solve the problem.

    Diabolical

  18. D C
    It is truly ironical, that Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany has had the guts to come out and say Christians are become the most persecuted religious group world wide.

    Last Wednesday’s bible study had the chance to look at the possibility Mary ended up in Britain. Knowing Jerusalem was condemned, having had to flee false royalty 30 odd years before, it all makes sense. bit of deja vu – get out while you can

    better put the boys to bed, cheers

  19. especially if that income was literally feeding your extended family back home.
    but diplomacy being what it is, a bit of white wash makes it all look like clean, no fuss, expulsion.
    off to be

  20. @Bones

    “PG is the new Ian Williams. Complete wacko.”

    He’s certainly an interesting fellow. He has managed to show how ignorant and uninformed Greg’s views are on Nahlia’s time in Saudi Arabia though. Kudos for that PG!

  21. There have been other westerners who have been caught smuggling bibles in. They received a fine. Certainly not execution.

  22. As if you would trust what nalliah has to say about anything. The guys about attention seeking and playing loose with the truth.

  23. btw my father in law was in jail in saudi arabia. His escape was more of a miracle than nalliahs. Nalliahs escape reminds me of the time my mom didnt find the playboy under my bed.

    A miracle.

    I forgot the way that murderer made him look like a complete arse..

  24. Bones, your father-in-law might be someone worth listening to. If he doesn’t roll the eyes at your every request could you get him to post here. See Bones it seems virtually impossible for you to have done anything other than marry above your station in life.
    Because unless he carried two passport or was prepared to swim or cross a desert in a four wheel drive getting out of the country is no simple thing.
    Its not that I think you are a liar though Bones – reading till Easter only and not commenting Bones – its just that I think you have somewhat less credibility than, say, the current Prime Minister or Craig Thomson. They both make you look good.

  25. Christians are being killed, beaten, persecuted in many countries as we speak. Meanwhile Bones is having a “my escape story is better than yours” competition. So far, his father-in-law’s is top, while Nalliah’s bible smuggling and Bones’ playboy are second.

    Well, there mustn’t be anymore poor in Australia, because Greg and Bones think Nalliah and his 90’s Saudi Arabia experiences are the most urgent problem to attend to.

    Christians getting killed Muslims and fleeing from the Middle East? No biggie. We can just let them come to Australia and build mosques – if they behave and leave their conservative views behind.

  26. The problem with anti-pentecostal type people like Bones and Greg, and the ‘watcher’ mob (who have almost to the last man been converted to reformed theology by ‘watcher’ in chief margot (congratulations)) is that once they get hold of a person, a ministry, a church, a movement as something they should oppose for one thing, they steam in on everything.

    So here we have Bones and Greg taking aim at Danny in such a holistic manner that you would think he was actually the devil incarnate, and not some old school fatalistic judgment and wrath Pentecostal preacher brought up on a diet of Jonathan Edwards and Jimmy Swaggart, with an sub-continental holiness ideology, who has missed it publicly on a couple of occasions, but, nevertheless, is doing what he can to stir believers into action as godly men and women in his own hapless way.

    I’m waiting for Bones to make some remarks on the clothes the guy wears, or the car he drives, or his hair style, because he’s spread the hatred on just about everything else, and even joined Greg to accuse him of lying on the flimsiest of evidence. I’m sorry, lawyers, but it is far too circumstantial to even go to court.

    But that is enough for these people. They declare ministers guilty before they have a chance to defend themselves.

    There is no middle ground of discussion with these critics. No balanced perspective on another person’s background, training, theology or understanding. No place we can all meet and talk things through to bring some kind of wisdom to any disagreement. Only utter loathing.

    By the way Greg, the 5 Catholic pieces you refer to were based on their own doctrine, sourced from their own sites, and compared to the Word of God i clear and concise terms. That is what the defence of the gospel is all about.

    Your problem is that you don’t actually believe the Word of God, have taken large slices of it out of the way, calling it mythical, unbelievable, or folklore, and have dismissed it as musings of mere men.

    Therefore you are rendered incapable of seeing through catholic apostasy, and, because you hold the traditions of men in greater stead than the gospels or the epistles, you are unable to discern the error presented by the dogma forced on catholics by generations of papists frauds.

  27. Disciple of Christ, it’s the taqiyya issue that I’ve been most moved by. If it is “:virtue” to deceive how can you ever really know what an opponent intends. There is no level playing field. No moral equivalence.

    Missionaries to PNG discovered a saying “fatten them with friendship and kindness”. As in, make them believe there is a peace, flatter, give, share food, gain their trust, lull them to sleep, and kill and eat them”

    The idea above that some Filipinos could be beaten senseless and a Dutchman escape unharmed is incomprehensible to the multi cultics. They honestly don’t get it.

    Danny is black. If people thought his family had been or was from a Muslim area/ a bit of Sri Lanka that belonged to “allah hu akbar” they’d want to kill him. If they thought he had Tamil connections to people who’d persecuted Muslims they’d want to kill him.

    Steve doesn’t get that the very basis of Jurisprudence of the West is perfectly seamlessly linked to the books of Moses. He somehow thinks “government is secular – it must have always been” How can Christians make laws for heathens?

    “Thou shalt not lie” is not written in a Koran without caveats, context or nuance. Its just not there as a plain unambiguous statement! Taqiyya is there.

    The multi cultic are determined that “Christianity” and “Islam” are basically the same. Freemasons virtually enshrined that in their doctrine.

    The bible is specific about fools but obviously I can’t elaborate in this place.

  28. Steve, that wasn’t said to “verbal” you.
    The West was built on a Bible.

    Western Government remains, intrinsically, biblically based, right now, down to the 1689 coronation oath act, which carries forward via the Imperial Acts Applications Act.

    People “perish” for lack of vision. Australia remains a Christian nation – but people like Bones are racing to destroy that.

  29. In fact the west, as we know it, was built on several factors, not least of which is the Magna Carta, but includes the French and American revolutions, the brief English republic, the Reformation, and includes throwbacks to Roman empiricism, Greek democracy, not a small amount of feudal and monarchic dictatorships and despotism, countless territorial shifts of power, the development of European languages, customs and cultures.

    But what would you call the west, anyway? The English speaking west? The French? Dutch? German? Spanish? All very different versions of so called enlightened thought which came out of the dark ages of catholic domination, which was very loosely built on Judeao-Christian ethics, but predominantly a fiefdom.

    Democracy devoid of monarchic power is a pretty recent development.

    But I still don’t have a clue what you are trying to tell me. Is God judging people today or not?

  30. Steve, as for the reformed people, I notice that there really are extreme positions. The reformed who are active on blogs are usually the ones who take the extreme positions.

    They’re the ones who get all upset and can’t understand when John Piper has a friendly conversation with Rick Warren, or Mark Driscoll talks to Brian Houston.

    Most Christians seem to want to have a good relationship with other Christians unless they advocate sin.

    As for the question of whether God judges people today, that’s worth a post on it’s own. Probably most evangelicals I know (and lots of people with just a passing interest in Christian things) still think that God will sometimes judge individuals or countries.

    I don’t think that the bushfires were judgement on Australia, or that the tsunami in Japan was either. Though Yonggi Cho made a statement that the tsunami was perhaps judgement. But so did a secular Japanese politician.

    I prefer not to make statements that are unprovable.
    Preachers telling Americans that 9/11 was either judgement or that His hand of protection was lifted didn’t seem to have any positive effect.

    Preachers could have said the same thing after Pearl Harbor.

    As for Greg and the Catholic Church – I’d be happy for him to become a Catholic and uphold their moral standards.

    There are Catholics who believe in the Bible, and traditional morality with whom I have much more in common than with supposedly liberal protestants.

  31. Is God judging people today or not?

    have we got three straight days? Obviously, we don’t so here is a thumbnail, blipvert, fly fishing flick of the wrist.

    If a person sticks their hand into a fire – is a burn a “judgment”?
    Work an eight day week and have panic attacks – is psychological exhaustion “:judgment”?
    Is a whip on a slaves back, or rod on a students buttocks, or a ruler on the knuckles “judgment”. Is correction of all forms “judgment”.

    Rabbi Cahn’s book the Harbinger does not call 911 judgment – he calls it an alarm bell or air raid siren [my paraphrase/ license]
    Jesus on the tower of Siloam said don’t try to link it to anything specific – you “son of man” won’t be able to do that. Did an engineer stuff up? Was a contractor a fraud or use dodgy material? Was an inspector being bribed to pass substandard work? Was a concrete an unintentional bad mix? Was nepotism how an idiot got the supervisor’s role.
    Judgment is the not the same as discernment is not the same as discretion is not the same as correction is not the same as discipline is not the same as condemnation is not the same as abandonment is not the same as consequence.

    By West I mean a loose confederation or unincorporated association of places and peoples among whom the gospel has been largely and practically accepted on an historical record basis. if you read history around that pretext “West”: makes perfectly good sense. It is the one concept most modern historians largely or totally overlook.

    Holy Roman Empire [as a prophetic entity] was and loosely remains a confederation of states, principalities, dominions, kingdoms, sects, individuals. It includes Protestantism, The
    RSPCA, the Country Women’s Association, the Boy Scouts of America and even Freemasons. It includes much indeed.

    It cannot include distinct recognisable prophetic entities listed in contra-distinction of it.

    Multi Cultism is a delusion; as is all unscriptural thinking. IMHO

    Ultimately the only thing that replaces it, IMHO is a specifically Anti-Christ State/ New World Order, OR The Return of the Lord Himself and with HIM the real thing Third Reich.

    Seems a bit off topic – but you did ask.

    Again, can evil befall a city and the lord has not done it? Maybe you don’t understand the question.

  32. Therefore you are rendered incapable of seeing through catholic apostasy, and, because you hold the traditions of men in greater stead than the gospels or the epistles, you are unable to discern the error presented by the dogma forced on catholics by generations of papists frauds.

    And you Steve are incapable of hearing anything negative about Pentecostal frauds. I am no anti-Pentecostal…I have a very good Facebook friend who is Pentecostal…and I love her dearly, her faith, grace and wisdom out me to shame regularly. I would listen to her all day and even though we disagree she has never spoken a harsh or horrible word to me, nor I to her. The secret? Mutual respect. Nobody on this site…nobody…respects those on the other side of their theological dividing line….and therein lies the problem.

  33. Greg, If Daniel Nalliah plainly said Peter Costello was going to be the next Prime Minister and he heard that from God,

    he should walk around Melbourne or Dandenong in his underwear with a billboard reading. “I’m sorry, I was wrong”

    Its an embarrassment and you are 100 percent spot on right to hound him for it.

    cheers

  34. @Greg

    “Nobody on this site…nobody…respects those on the other side of their theological dividing line”

    Respect is earned. How can you and Bones be respected when your modus operandi is to mock, belittle and abuse opinions different to your own? How can you expect to be respected when you jump at every opportunity to denigrate and criticise ministers and leaders of Pentecostal churches because they offend your liberal humanist world-view? How can you expect to be respected when you deny the one book that all Christianity holds sacred? How can you expect to be respected when your language is better suited to the schoolyard or a drunken night on the tiles than what is befitting a supposed Christian website?

    Congratulations on your mutual respect for your Pentecostal friend on Facebook. Obviously she knows the Facebook Greg persona, and not the Signposts Greg persona that we know so well here. I reckon that if she were to see the Signposts Greg in action, her respect for you would diminish dramatically.

  35. “And you Steve are incapable of hearing anything negative about Pentecostal frauds.”

    That’s simply not true. You must have missed Steve’s very, very clear and strong rebuke of Nalliah. Simply not true.

    As for theological dividing lines, I disagreed with Margot but could hold a conversation with her. I’m part of interdenominational associations, and could listen to a podcast of Driscoll, Warren, Osteen, Piper, Houston, Cho, and RC Sproul, etc etc all in the one day.
    I draw the line and could not submit to the authority of, or recommend someone as a counsellor if they didn’t discourage two men from marrying or continuing to engage in sex.
    But even then I can hold conversations usually with people who hold that view, though I wouldn’t do serious ministry with them if they had any pastoral responsibility.

    I attend a Catholic mass once a year two for that matter and have Catholic friends.

    I could go on.

  36. @Bones

    This brings up an interesting point that I think is not understood by many “watchers”, and that is, what is a false prophet? Is giving a false prophecy, or thinking you were hearing from God and being wrong the same as the false prophets that we are warned about in Matthew 7:15? Is Nalliah a ferocious wolf in sheeps clothing, deliberately setting out to deceive the body, or is he just not very good at discerning the difference between the Holy Spirit’s voice and his own? I think it’s the latter, but what do you reckon?

  37. Actually, I just found this passage in Jeremiah 23:16 which the last part I think sums up our friend Danny perfectly – They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.

    Of course this entire chapter is talking about the corrupt prophets from Samaria and Jerusalem who were deliberately setting out to deceive the children of Israel, so I am not equating Danny with them in that way. Just making the observation that he seems to be not hearing correctly from God

  38. Roundhouse,

    If anyone ever says “Thus saith the LORD…….”/ “God told me…….” and it doesn’t come to pass they are seriously wrong/ have brought serious disrepute on both themselves and the church.

    The old testament office of Prophet finished with John the Baptist. the New Testament gift of prophesy should be treated no less seriously – but we don’t have to stone to death these false prophets.. What anyone says, at the minimum, should be entirely consistent with scripture.

    Put it this Way.
    If what they say doesn’t come to pass they are calling God, Himself, a liar.

    if God told them, and it doesn’t happen what does that say about God? Their God? The one they claim to honour.

  39. @PG

    I understand what you are saying, and agree with most of it, but are these misguided people the False Prophets we were warned about in Matthew? I think not. I think they are simply people who perhaps think of themselves more highly than they aught and believe that every thought that comes into their head is a mighty proclamation from the King of Kings! The False Prophets that Jesus speaks of in Matthew I believe would be people such as Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy and Charles Taze Russel. All of these people have started cults that have a form of Godliness but deny the power therein, and are therefore condemning millions into thinking they are saved but are really not. These are the kinds of people who I believe Jesus is talking about, and not people like Danny Nalliah, who simply spouts whatever comes into his mind as being from God. Your thoughts?

  40. Look, these pages, the only two, hopefully, I’m ever involved with, are about Danny Vs Islam.

    Forget Danny for a split second; was Muhammad a true or false prophet.

    Of course if you answer false, there are people out there who want to kill you?

    Question is will the neo liberal left/ Bones etc be clapping wildly and grinning from ear to ear if they do?
    That puts a more sober perspective to where Danny stands. Would you stand with a fallen brother or a seriously false prophet?

    Ironic. No, you don’t get it.

    Simple Greg. Rather than just tell me to “:f…k off” simply move a motion. if Bones or anyone else seconds the motion, it passes unopposed by default condition if there is silence on the matter, I’m gone.

    three cheers for Bones “democracy” and good manners everywhere. It works, The West was largely built on it.

  41. Roundhouse, might be right – haven’t thought about it enough – must look at it – I now plan to.

    What I’ve put here is that, at its core, the Westminster system is largely a direct derivative of Biblical precept. Freely elected leadership and essential quorum are biblical jurisprudence. But it would take more than a few days to thrash that concept bare.

  42. @PG

    “Muhammad a true or false prophet.”

    Of course Muhammad is a false prophet, but I don’t believe that this kind of prophet is who Jesus was referring to. Why would Jesus urge His disciples to beware a pagan god like Allah (the moon god)? The disciples would never even entertain the notion of following a pagan god. But it would be more than feasible that a follower of Christ can be led astray by doctrines that seem Christian on the surface, but are in fact the doctrines of demons, as Mormonism, LTS and Christian Science are. That’s why I believe that Jesus is referring to these kinds of people as False Prophets, and not people like Nalliah

  43. Hopefully that lovely Pentecostal lady friend will come and comment here. We need a woman’s touch here (you know, sugar and spice and all that’s nice),

    No jokes about needing a woman’s touch please.

    Though, probably the fact that i noticed it says something…

  44. @DoC

    “Ho”

    I thought you were against bad language. Unless you are offering some Christmas cheer!

  45. @Bones

    You can hyperventilate all you want. Allah is a fictitious pagan god who has absolutely no resemblance to Jehovah. Allah is NOT the God of the Old Testament, regardless of how many misguided Jewish people on Youtube try to fabricate the truth.

  46. @DoC

    “Hopefully that lovely Pentecostal lady friend will come and comment here.”

    I doubt that Facebook Greg would want her to see the behavior of Signposts Greg. She would no longer wish to be friends with Facebook Greg!

  47. Even Jesus said Allah. According to an Aramaic dictionary, ( http://www.peshitta.org/lexicon/ ) the word for God in Aramaic (The language which Jesus spoke) is “Aalah”, which is the exact same thing as the Arabic “Allah” since in English there are many ways to spell a foreign word (Example you can spell the Muhammad’s name in 27 ways, including Muhammad and Mohamed). Just visit the link and type “God” if you don’t believe me, then scroll down to “Pronunciation”

    Lets not forget that Arab Christians, and Jews (as is the case in this video) say Allah, and have been saying it before there were even any western Christians!

  48. This might sound harsh Roundhouse but If Danny says “God told him Peter Costello would be the next Prime Minister”

    then he has to wear the title “false prophet”.

    He apparently wanted the Kudos, the accolade, the microphone, the high praises, the spot light, the anointor of kings title, access to these earthly thrones, business class seats.
    seems he should wear the ignominy.

    And isn’t that what God, did intend with the unrepentant? Now as he scratches for a political career will he end up a badly as a fallen woman is in her current state.

    Is that harsh?

  49. Agnes Monica is the Miley Cyrus of Southeast Asia. The Indonesian teen singer’s face is ubiquitous. Her performances are packed out. But in Selangor, Malaysia, no one is allowed to play her song “Allah Peduli” (“God Cares”). Monica is a Christian, and Malaysian law bans non-Muslims from referring to God as Allah.

    The ban on “God Cares” is one application of state laws widely opposed by the island nation’s Christians and other non-Muslims. Few question whether Allah is the God of the Bible—to Malaysian Christians, Allah is simply the word for God.

    Christians have used the word for centuries, and the conflict is not new. A Wycliffe translator who has been in the region for several years said this debate began when the first Bible was published in Malay, using Allah, in 1985.

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/august/14.15.html

  50. bones, the connection is spurious.
    Just look at allah’s character “for God’s sake”, not allah’s.

    Jesus, warned angel of light.

    spoken at, not for

  51. huff and puff, by the way, but Muhammad’s Qur’an declares allah explicitly for who it is.

    there you mosque builder, another, ‘couldn’t hear a word’

  52. No Bones,
    the Copts I met at the Austin have decided to disambiguate and use God, Jesus by name as not to confuse anyone

    Ps. Jesus wasn’t the only Yeshua in Jerusalem when Anna and Simeon were waiting and looking for his coming. There were many Yeshua’s – but only one from the House of David, born in Ephrata Bethlehem, born of a virgin _ prophesied. Many Yeshuas’ but only one saviour.

    If you go to Mexico today how many Jesus’ are there? A million.

    Baal as “possessor” might be construed as an accurate title for God. What could be more accurate than saying that the LORD is the “owner” of Heaven and Earth.

    But God Himself said don’t use that name! Why – wasn’t it true?

    Baal, Possessor, the Lord – No God said don’t do that. So no-one even needs to ask why!

    If God said, don’t do it, a man doesn’t need to ask why.

  53. From Wycliffe Bible translators

    Facts concerning the use of the term “Allah” in Scripture

    It is easy to instinctively associate the Arabic term “Allah” with Islam and the Quran, but the term Allah has a long history of use in Christian Bibles and among Arabic speaking Christians around the world.

    This information is presented with the intent to build greater understanding and awareness concerning the inclusion of the term Allah in Scripture translations.

    THE USE OF ALLAH AS AN EFFECTIVE TERM FOR GOD PREDATES ISLAM (ALAMEDDINE 2008, PIPES 2005, VOLF 2011).
    The Aramaic language was the vernacular in Palestine in the days of Christ, and was the primary language of Jews and Christians in the Middle East prior to Islam, excluding Egypt where varieties of Coptic were used. The Arabic language developed later in the Arabian Peninsula, and existed for several centuries before spreading with the appearance of Islam in the seventh century. It is now the most widely spoken language in the Middle East (World Encyclopedia 2005, Columbia Encyclopedia 2008, Concise Oxford Companion 1998).

    Scholars do not agree on the origin of the term Allah. It is widely believed that “Allah” is a contraction of the Arabic terms “al,” similar to “the” in English, and “ilah,” meaning “god,” though this theory contradicts the phonological rules of classical Arabic (Omar 2003, Lane 1863, K. Thomas 2001).

    Early Arabic-speaking Christians would have borrowed many religious terms from Aramaic as the Arabic language developed. They would often alter the terms in the process to make them fit the sound patterns of Arabic. It is likely that the Aramaic terms “Alah” or “Alaha” would have been borrowed and altered to become the Arabic word “Allah.”

    Many, if not all, Christian Arabic translations of Scripture since at least the eighth century have used this term (K. Thomas 2001).

    BELIEVERS USE ALLAH AS A TERM FOR GOD TODAY.
    Today, millions of Christians in many languages still use the name Allah to refer to God in their worship, Bibles, prayers, writings, and daily lives (Michel 1984, K. Thomas 2001). The word is not exclusive to Islam or the Quran.

    THE TERM ALLAH DOES NOT REFERENCE THE MOON GOD OR A PAGAN DEITY.
    It is believed that Meccans worshipped many pagan gods before the days of Muhammad, including a creator-god called Allah. However, as previously stated, strong evidence shows that Christians used the word Allah to reference the one God long before Islamic times (Encyclopaedia of Islam 2006, K. Thomas 2001). In fact, the term Allah is arguably freer of pagan connections than the names for God used in other languages (Encyclopedia of Islam 2002, Volf 2011, Watkins 2000).

    The association stems largely from the presence of a crescent symbol on mosques, which many attribute to the moon god. However, the moon god was named Sîn, and was represented by an elderly man with a flowing beard and a headdress of four horns surmounted by a crescent moon. In that regard, it’s important to understand that the crescent symbol commonly associated with the world of Islam was actually a religious symbol adopted by the Byzantine Empire and then introduced as a political symbol of the Ottoman Empire at least six centuries after Islam emerged (Encyclopedia Britannica 2003).

    Allah has also been linked to Hubal, a pagan god worshipped in pre-Islamic Arabia, but this connection has been rejected by Muslim and secular scholars alike. American Evangelicals speculated that Hubal was also a moon god, and that worship of Allah stems from the worship of this pagan deity (Peek 2010).

    In actuality, Hubal has been used as a symbol of idol worship in Islamism. When Muhammad conquered Mecca in 630 A.D., he had a statue of Hubal destroyed and rededicated the monument to Allah (Armstrong 2002).

    http://www.wycliffe.org/SonofGod/QA/AllahFacts.aspx

  54. You still don’t get it. I don’t answer for any other PhillipGeorge’s. They aren’t me.

    Muhammad’s allah and a Coptic Christian’s Allah are not one and the same.

    You can pass counterfeit notes over a lot of counters; not all

    Ezekiel got to see inside of inside of the Temple [that wasn’t a tautology]. Not everyone there had the same conception of God.

    Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit.

    Jesus is a Son, he is not a Sun-God. If you read that in English to a blind man they are inevitably going to be confused. Blind people have a difficulty with some spoken words.

    allah is, per the Koran, the greatest deceiver of them all. Now some transliterators want to soften that word. Going soft on the word is something you’ll run into in cross cultural relations. So soft they’ve destroyed the bridge they crossed.

  55. or in other words,

    the Jesus I worship and the Jesus a Jehovah’s Witness and a Muhammadan “praise” are nothing alike,

  56. { So what do you tell Christians who call God Allah? }

    Same as what you tell Christians who call God Satan.

    Bones,
    So what do you tell Muslims that call Christians evil?

  57. “So what do you tell Muslims that call Christians evil?”

    Point them to this thread.

    They’ll see there’s a few good Christians.

    Mind you a Muslim who calls Christians evil is suffering from the same retarded fundamentalism as a Christian who thinks Muslims are evil.

  58. Well, Bones, i have never met a Christian that calls himself an ‘Allah worshipper’.
    Do Muslims thank God the Father, in the name of Jesus, just as the Bible says?

  59. Love thy neighbour
    Christian church becomes first in UK to welcome muslims

    A CHRISTIAN church has surprised its flock by becoming the first in the UK to welcome MUSLIMS.
    St John’s Episcopal Church in Aberdeen now opens its doors to hundreds of Islam worshippers five times a day, as their own mosque was so small they had been forced to pray outside.
    Although not unheard of in America, it is thought to be the first time this has ever happened in the UK.
    A spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain said: “I’ve never heard of this before, of any other case where active churches are also used as mosques.”

    Rev Isaac Poobalan, 50, struck the deal with his opposite number, Chief Imam Ahmed Megharbi when he saw him conducting prayers in the rain outside.
    Rev Poobalan said: “Praying is never wrong. My job is to encourage people to pray.
    “The mosque was so full at times, there would be people outside in the wind and rain praying.
    “I knew I couldn’t just let this happen — because I would be abandoning what the Bible teaches us about how we should treat our neighbours.
    “They took us up on the offer and it has been a positive relationship.”
    Chief Imam Megharbi added: “What happens here is special and there should be no problem repeating this across the country.
    “The relationship is friendly and respectful.”
    The Bishop of Aberdeen and Orkney — The Right Rev Dr Robert Gillies — went even further, saying he believes they could cause “shock waves around the world”.
    He said: “It would be good to think we can change the world.
    “Most of us most of the time feel we can’t so don’t bother.
    “But sometimes, someone has a vision we can do something of global significance on a local scale.
    “This is what is happening between St John’s and the mosque in its grounds.”

    Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4848081/Reverend-shares-church-with-Muslims.html#ixzz2NyahnBNY

  60. “Well, Bones, i have never met a Christian that calls himself an ‘Allah worshipper’.”

    Go to the Middle East and Asia.

    There’s millions of them.

  61. So in Arabic they would sing

    How great is Allah
    Sing with me how great is Allah
    All will see how great, how great is Allah.

    (To paraphrase Chris Tomlin’s contemporary song)

  62. I think this last discussion of the word “Allah” is very complex especially for those who aren’t familiar with the subject.

    Bones quoted from the Wycliffe people and as an English speaking Christian I’d pretty much defer to their judgement on the topic because they’ve had a long time to think about it.

    Bones also mentions the fact that Malaysian Muslims don’t want Christians to use the word Allah, so it’s a difficult topic and the issue is treated differently in different countries.

    The word “god” will cause different problems in the various languages because people think of different things.

    Some missionaries don’t like using the word allah, but they’re pretty much in the minority from what I understand.

    I’ve read where the English word “god’ comes from the German which was originally the name of a pagan god.

    Basically, linguistics is a very complicated subject and the study of derivations of words is endless.

    I’d agree with Bones take on the use of the word allah here.

    As to how to witness to Muslims, and whether we assume they are trying to worshiping the same “God”, that is big enough for it’s own thread.

    I tend to be go with Paul’s angle when he preached referencing the altar to an (the?) “unknown god”

    May not interest anyone, but Japanese Christians use the word “kami” for God, which is the same word that others use for gods in mountains and localities, as well as the emperor. Remember the kamikaze? But Christians teach what they believe is the one true “kami”.

    Sorry, if I misunderstood the debate here between Bones and Phillip but, just sayin that words are really tough to argue about.

  63. @Eyes, from what I understand many Christians refer to God as Allah. I know that sounds strange initially to English speakers.

    btw, the Wycliffe people have done an amazing job, and are worth giving to. And yes, translating the bible to various languages is incredibly difficult, and translators agonize of which words are appropriate or not, and no doubt judgements are made that are later changed.

    Now they are the real green berets of the Christian world. If you want to be impressed, then think of these people who go to a tribe somewhere, learn their language and slowly try to create a bible in that language. Respect!

    Thanks for reminding me of them Bones.

    Something you could think of doing when you retire! Then you could put that brain of yours to use!

  64. In Islam there are two ways to get paradise:

    1. Your good deeds are weighed against your bad deeds. If you have done enough good deeds when compared to your bad deeds, you will eventually get to paradise, after spending some time burning in the fires of hell.

    2. Muslims who die as martyrs defending Islam go directly to paradise.

    It is plain to see that in Islam salvation is a result of your works. You may have also noticed that all Muslims, except those who die as martyrs defending Islam, go to hell. This is clearly stated in the Koran, Sura 19, verses 67-68 and 71-72.

    (This is Allah speaking through his prophet Mohammed.) “There is not one among you who shall not pass through hell; such is the absolute decree of your Lord. We will deliver those who fear Us, and leave the wrongdoers there, on their knees.” (Sura 19:71-72)

    This Sura clearly states that everyone goes to hell and that, after some period of time, Allah will deliver those who have done sufficient good deeds from hell, leaving behind those who have not done enough good deeds.

    Salvation is through what a Muslim does. It is through human works.

  65. Actually that famous Chris Tomlin song would be more like

    Allah Akhbar.

    Sing with me Allah Akhbar

    All will see Allah Akhbar, Akhbar.

  66. Which brings me to the question of, WHAT ISLAM CONSIDERS AS A MARTYR?
    HOW CAN ONE BE CONSIDERED AS A MARTYR FOR ISLAM?
    What must one do in order to be considered, an Islam Martyr?

  67. What will i receive, in paradise, if i am martyred for the sake of Allah?
    Does Christ reveal this?

  68. Btw, Can we all agree on one thing” That song by Chris Tomlin is great. So good that it’s in many languages.

    Look up on youtube and you can see and hear Arab Christians singing it. Unless I’m mistaken they are indeed using the word allah for God.

    On the other hand in the Malay version they use the word “Tuhan” .
    Bones touched on the issue of the use of Allah in Malaysia- it’s the Muslims there who don’t want Christians using the word “allah”.

    You know, I always feel so warm and cuddly when I agree with Bones on something!

  69. Anyway, we should just make them all speak Engrish.

    Gee, I forget I was a disciple of Christ a few times there.

    Sorry

  70. “What will i receive, in paradise, if i am martyred for the sake of Allah?”

    Change Allah to God.

    What will i receive, in paradise, if i am martyred for the sake of God?

    The early church was pretty specific abut the martyrs being the first resurrected and that their reward will be in the afterlife.

  71. yes Bones, you are a taqiyya man.

    We, worship different Gods.

    We, as George Bernard Shaw put it are two people divided by a common language.

    Islam will do as Islam does, Darwinism will do as Darwin does.

    Death.

    But Bones, I am suitably convinced, in light of this exchange – repartee – you will die believing you have Science on your side.

    The etymology, of science is much to be likened to the etymology of knowledge.

    Eve had every reason to believe what Satan had told her. It was logical. Just a lie is all. Just a lie. Just a little lie.

  72. “yes Bones, you are a taqiyya man.”

    Nah. Never really been into taqiyya. The worm thing was a bit too much. I prefer bourbon and scotch.

    “you will die believing you have Science on your side.”

    Rather have science on my side than superstition. I hope anyone who operates on me is up with the latest science and not reading horoscopes for their diagnosis.

    Oh and did I mention

    Allah Akhbar!

  73. “Just a little lie.”

    That’s what you’ve been telling dude.

    Your Allah the pagan moon god is smashed for all to see.

    You mustn’t have a conscience to keep posting on here after telling lies.

    Danny would be proud.

    You’ve got balls but alas no integrity.

    Allah Akhbar.

  74. Islam, began in Mecca, claimed to be the revelation of God (Allah) through the angel Gabriel to a man named Muhammad.

    Galatians 1:8
    But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

    2 Corinthians 11:13-14
    For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

    Revelation 22:18-19
    I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

    Galatians 1:9
    As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

    Galatians 3:10
    For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

  75. @Bones
    While I think you’re right with the use of the word Allah, I wouldn’t be throwing around phrases too lightly in other languages when you don’t know the real meanings and usage.
    You could end up offending people.
    Regardless of my views I try not to offend people of other faiths – including Muslims.

  76. “Regardless of my views I try not to offend people of other faiths – including Muslims.”

    Religions don’t own God or even words.

    “You could end up offending people.”

    Yes that’s ironic. Of course I’m the one on here offending Muslims.

    Allahu Akhbar!

    God is great!

  77. “So where did Christianity begin?????????????”

    EYES, there’s a book in the Bible called Acts. It’s a good place to start.

  78. “We, worship different Gods.”

    My God doesn’t go around destroying His own creation in fits of rage as your god does.

    So yeah you’re right.

    My God is Jesus.

    Allahu Akhbar!

  79. Eyes, you haven’t just got balls you are a man.

    Ayes to this Eyes who has the Eye salve.

    Amen and Amen, to the A men.

    Galatians 1.8 I needed to hear you say. thanks

  80. { EYES, there’s a book in the Bible called Acts. It’s a good place to start. }

    So then you agree that Christianity did not begin in Mecca?
    So then how can Islam be Christian?

  81. @Bones

    You are so hung up on the word “Allah” that you have completely missed my point. I am not talking about a name of God, I am talking about the fictitious pagan moon god that the Muslims call God. The name is immaterial. It’s the entity BEHIND the name that is the issue. As usual you go off on rants and diversions and tangents while missing the whole point. The “god” or “Allah” in Arabic that the Muslims worship IS NOT the God of the Hebrews and Christians. Their Allah is a fictitious pagan moon god. Got it now?

  82. THE TERM ALLAH DOES NOT REFERENCE THE MOON GOD OR A PAGAN DEITY.
    It is believed that Meccans worshipped many pagan gods before the days of Muhammad, including a creator-god called Allah. However, as previously stated, strong evidence shows that Christians used the word Allah to reference the one God long before Islamic times (Encyclopaedia of Islam 2006, K. Thomas 2001). In fact, the term Allah is arguably freer of pagan connections than the names for God used in other languages (Encyclopedia of Islam 2002, Volf 2011, Watkins 2000).

    The association stems largely from the presence of a crescent symbol on mosques, which many attribute to the moon god. However, the moon god was named Sîn, and was represented by an elderly man with a flowing beard and a headdress of four horns surmounted by a crescent moon. In that regard, it’s important to understand that the crescent symbol commonly associated with the world of Islam was actually a religious symbol adopted by the Byzantine Empire and then introduced as a political symbol of the Ottoman Empire at least six centuries after Islam emerged (Encyclopedia Britannica 2003).

    Allah has also been linked to Hubal, a pagan god worshipped in pre-Islamic Arabia, but this connection has been rejected by Muslim and secular scholars alike. American Evangelicals speculated that Hubal was also a moon god, and that worship of Allah stems from the worship of this pagan deity (Peek 2010).

    In actuality, Hubal has been used as a symbol of idol worship in Islamism. When Muhammad conquered Mecca in 630 A.D., he had a statue of Hubal destroyed and rededicated the monument to Allah (Armstrong 2002).

    http://www.wycliffe.org/SonofGod/QA/AllahFacts.aspx

  83. @Bones

    Let’s play copy/paste bingo!

    Many believe the word “Allah” was derived from the mid- eastern word “el” which in Ugaritic, Caananite and Hebrew can mean a true or false God. This is not the case, “The source of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning “God” (or a “god”), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity.” (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (ed. Hastings), I:326.)

    According to the Encyclopedia of Religion, Allah corresponded to the Babylonian god Baal, and Arabs knew of him long before Mohammed worshipped him as the supreme God. Before Islam the Arabs recognized many gods and goddesses, each tribe had their own deity. There were also nature deities. Allah was the god of the local Quarish tribe, which was Mohammed’s tribe before he invented Islam to lead his people out of their polytheism. Allah was then known as the Moon God, who had 3 daughters who were viewed as intercessors for the people into Allah. Their names were Al-at, Al-uzza, and Al-Manat, which were three goddesses; the first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah. Hubal was the chief God of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was the chief God of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was a statue likeness of a man whose body was made of red precious stones whose arms were made of gold. (Reference Islam George Braswell Jr.)

    “Historians like Vaqqidi have said Allah was actually the chief of the 360 gods being worshipped in Arabia at the time Mohammed rose to prominence. Ibn Al-Kalbi gave 27 names of pre-Islamic deities…Interestingly, not many Muslims want to accept that Allah was already being worshipped at the Ka’ba in Mecca by Arab pagans before Mohammed came. Some Muslims become angry when they are confronted with this fact. But history is not on their side. Pre-Islamic literature has proved this.” (G. J. O. Moshay, Who Is This Allah? (Dorchester House, Bucks, UK, 1994), pg. 138).

    The literal name of Mohammed’s father in Arabic is Abd Allah. His uncle’s name Obred Allah. These names show the devotion of Mohammed’s families pagan roots, and also prove that Allah was part of a polytheistic system of worship before Allah was made the supreme and only god from the other God’s. This should be proof to the pre- Islamic root of the name of Allah to the Muslim. Remember they were pagans who used this name. He kept his family name above all the other names.

    Mecca was the place where the idol Allah was located, so the people would face in that direction when they prayed. Prior to Islam the people would pray 5 times a day facing Mecca (The Encyclopedia of Islam p.303) Prior to Islam’s beginning each Arab tribe used Allah to refer to its own particular high god. This is why Hubal, the Moon god, (known by other names) was the central focus of prayer at the Kaabah and people prayed to Hubal and they used the name Allah. The crescent moon was the symbol of the moon God Allah (Hubal) and is still used as a symbol of Islam today (although they have changed the meaning to be -from Mecca to the moon Islam will spread). Today there is hardly a Muslim that knows its ancient origin. History records it as an ancient pagan fertility symbol that is found throughout the Middle East. Mohammed smashed all the idols that led the people into idolatry but the black stone was kept which Muslims continue to kiss today. This was another practice that preceded Mohammad.

  84. It actually amuses me Bones you chose Einstein. He’s a celebrity scientist much like Stephen Hawking. His relativity was a useful tool, applying Riemann geometry to the macroscopic world but he quite embarrassed himself in rejecting quantum physics, till he could reject it no longer. He had to swallow his pride on that one. It seems that the epistemological limitations inherent in quantum mechanics unnerved the rather cocky theoratician. “God doesn’t play dice” – isn’t Canonical Bones. How God does quantum physics might be unknowable in the extreme.

    Einstein provided fodder to the grist mill with a long list of inane platitudes for reader’s digest or women’s weekly type publications. He was good at being famous. But really could he hold a candle to Faraday or Maxwell or Newton or Schrodinger or Heisenberg or Dirac?

    The Bones monogram also amused me. If you aren’t a doctor or wannabe StarTrek crew it kind of points to Ezekiel’s valley of dust dry bones.

    Of course then there’s these words
    “O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord”

    But how can you when you won’t accept what the Word of the LORD is?

    Teaching my children about science I intend to and have started talking about Epistemological limitations and constraints, Like Planck Length, Heisenberg Uncertainty/ Empirical constraints. The unknowable cause in Quantum Physics, Philosophical limitations implied by and inherent Fitch’s paradox and Godel’s Theorem. I also have discussed basic thermodynamics, entropy, and abiogenesis, panspermia, hyperdimensional space, extra dimensional being, Sheldrake’s morphic resonance field theory.

    Where did you start with your children? That they should find a guru and kiss his feet? Happy days deconstructing Einstein. Of course if Michelson-Morley were a false negative perhaps much of relativity is yet to be revised – to many peoples’ embarrassment.

    Like Che Guevara, Einstein makes for a good t-shirt, sort of hip seventies pop culture.

    Back back to forensics. Was your father in law interested in posting his testimony of escape – you know – the factually based one?

  85. “Teaching my children about science I intend to and have started talking about Epistemological limitations and constraints, Like Planck Length, Heisenberg Uncertainty/ Empirical constraints. The unknowable cause in Quantum Physics, Philosophical limitations implied by and inherent Fitch’s paradox and Godel’s Theorem. I also have discussed basic thermodynamics, entropy, and abiogenesis, panspermia, hyperdimensional space, extra dimensional being, Sheldrake’s morphic resonance field theory.”

    I keep it to stuff like “hot water cleans better”.

    Everyone’s a genius at signposts…

  86. I keep it to stuff like “hot water cleans better”.

    Everyone’s a genius at signposts…

    Especially when you can simply google lists of quantum theories and their proponants. Well googled pedogeorge

  87. Disciple of Christ, I didn’t come down with yesterday’s rains. Since 14 y.o. I’ve been reflecting that science teaching should have begun with identified paradox’s such as the twin paradox, and known or, at least, identified epistemological constraints. A form 5 physics teacher discussed the ether problem and I remain, to this, grateful that he did. The point is plasma model universe advocates are competing to this day with standard model proponents etc. etc. etc. For Bones to advance that the “God of the gaps” is getting smaller is a non sequitur, one I utterly reject. The Discovery Channel incessantly elevates man’s conquest of knowledge. They simply don’t see, what they don’t see. They are unaware of what it is they are unaware.

    My first high school science teacher was a brilliant old American emigrant to Australia who drilled us, drilled us, drilled us, as the ex US services man I believe that he was, “Pop Quiz today – books away” – in control variable empiricism. To him, I also, am indebted.

    Discovery Channel – do you honestly not think there has been a shocking dumbing down in reporting science?

  88. @Greg

    We cannot assume that everyone here relies upon Google to form and shape their opinions and theology the way Bones does.

  89. O.k. This is cut and paste:

    “We are approaching a darkness in the land. Boys and girls are emerging from every level of school with certificates and degrees, but they can’t read, write or calculate. We don’t have academic honesty or intellectual rigor. Schools have abandoned integrity and rigor.”

    When Physics was taught..

  90. @Steve

    I was going to ask him the same thing. It seems it is fine for Greg to call someone a pedophile without any evidence or proof, yet when I mentioned pedophilia in the same sentence as homosexuals a while back, even when I made it absolutely clear I wasn’t equating the two in any way, shape or form, Greg went completely apoplectic. The more I engage with people on the left side of things, the more I realise that hypocrisy is their natural tendency.

  91. Julius Sumner Miller…oh the memories.

    He taught me all about how good Cadbury”s chocolate was!
    What else do you need to know.

    @Phillip. Just playing with you. I’m sure you’re really bright. And it shows the influence teachers can have.

    As for me, I don’t know anything about science – seriously.
    Not boasting, and not ashamed – just being honest.

  92. No-one needs to look far, read much, to see that when a career scientist stands up to be interviewed they generally look like they are speaking as high priests for a religious dogma called materialism,
    the underlying philosophy being at everything must be observable and, in the end, explain itself.
    Carl Sagan gave the classic line to the dogma.

    You might enjoy reading how evolutionary biologist Rupert Sheldrake has been attacked by fellow evolutionists such as Richard Dawkins – simply for reporting statistics that can’t deny a collective animal population consciousness.

    Read it and weep
    http://www.booktopia.com.au/the-science-delusion-rupert-sheldrake/prod9781444727944.html?gclid=CLOu8faMirYCFQFipQodlCwArw

  93. restated
    Socratic method
    start with questions

    it will inspire curiosity, exploration, inquisitiveness, the desire to learn…..

  94. “The crescent moon was the symbol of the moon God Allah (Hubal) and is still used as a symbol of Islam today”

    You know I don’t trust anything Christians say about other religions.

    There is so much that is deceitful in the way Christians misrepresent and lie about others whether they are Muslims or Catholics.

    The crescent was in use in the ancient Greek colony of Byzantium. Subsequently, it became one of the symbols of the Byzantine Empire (Christian) and especially of Constantinople (Christian). It is unclear whether the Ottomans adopted the symbol after the conquest of Constantinople or it was already in use. Indeed, during the Byzantine-Ottoman Wars, the crescent was used simultaneously by both the Byzantines (Christians) and the Ottoman Sultans.

    A star (or stars) and crescent featuring in some combination form the basis of symbols widely found across the ancient world, with examples attested from the Eastern Mediterranean and Central Asia.[1] The early Muslim community did not have a symbol. During the time of Muhammad, Islamic armies and caravans flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders continued to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or symbolism on it.

  95. Well Steve, you didn’t get your answer.

    Fact is Greg has as much evidence of me being a “pedophile” as he has for “miracles don’t happen” i.e None. The statement is in his imagination.

    But Steve, while you might never see this – it was an answer to you.
    It wasn’t some supercilious silence of the brooding malcontent.

    Now Re:Zorro. [I don’t have the time to study this blog in anything like detail] I just had a very quick look. It is only natural to fight heretics. lunatics and secular politics.

    Zealotry might, on occasion be as misguided as heresy; Jesus called a Zealot – did he ever call an outright heretic?

  96. Or put is another, Steve, how many postings from Greg/Bones aren’t an attempt to justify “unbelief” in the Bible?

    Unbelievers often seem to rail against Christianity simply trying to justify their unbelief.

    Right now what’s the first thing that comes into his mind?

    Ah but Christians…… blah, blah, blah, blah. blah

    and I’d never do that, because I’,m better..

    ie. heard it all before, the dog ate my homework etc….

  97. Reiterated……..

    If something is true, there isn’t a hope in hell’s chance of justifying non belief in it.

    Given Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life,

    what hope has any man is rejecting anything He says, does or is?

    the principle is applicable in any ‘science’ – and theology is King of sciences.

    Anyone’s attempt to justify unbelief is no less pathetic than the scene of people sewing fig leaves together trying to get back what they cannot.

  98. heavens is plural.
    Can’t you fact check anything?

    If you guys were on Mount Carmel you’d be telling Elijah, hold up there bro. We need to be more inclusive. These Baal Priests represent diversity and there are many ways to sacrifice to g_d.

    yeah, right.

  99. What’s been done to Danny Nalliah here on these pages is, of course, disgraceful –
    and it’s not going away.
    Like a tattoo of a criminal conviction on a forehead, this blog is now on that time-space continuum all the way to Judgment Day.

    cheers’

  100. Largely speaking the satanists won the public policy debate

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/03/26/egyptian-mosque-turned-into-house-torture-for-christians-after-muslim/

    And neo liberal pluralists [Bones et al] are grinning from ear to ear. allah hu akbar people. He is the greatest deceiver of them all.

    Clueless, utterly clueless.

    ps, Kevin Rudd recommended Bones et al embrace and accommodate the Muslim Brotherhood.
    Too late Kevin, he already has, or at least wants to build Mosques for anyone asking for one,

  101. When biblical literacy is at an all time low.

    Lo and behold, a blog just like this one……

    It is nearly finished.

  102. Prepare, oh Evangelicals everywhere lurking at this site (and what a site it has become), for an onslaught of neo-paganism, liberal deconstructionism and evolutionary theory, mingled with catholic dogma, unbelief, doubt and fear of the supernatural on an unprecedented scale from the Three Amigos of orthodox agnosticism, interspersed with Faceless Comments attacking Pentecostalism from the Unknown Mystery Scribe of the netherworld!

  103. too good to not make use of…..

    Prepare, oh Evangelicals everywhere lurking at this site (and what a site it has become), for an onslaught of neo-paganism, liberal deconstructionism and evolutionary theory, mingled with catholic dogma, unbelief, doubt and fear of the supernatural on an unprecedented scale from the Three Amigos of orthodox agnosticism, interspersed with Faceless Comments attacking Pentecostalism from the Unknown Mystery Scribe of the netherworld!

  104. Greg,

    could you work this into the Signposts logo/ banner – you know, to prep people over the editorial content – policy

    too good to not make use of…..

    Prepare, oh Evangelicals everywhere lurking at this site (and what a site it has become), for an onslaught of neo-paganism, liberal deconstructionism and evolutionary theory, mingled with catholic dogma, unbelief, doubt and fear of the supernatural on an unprecedented scale from the Three Amigos of orthodox agnosticism, interspersed with Faceless Comments attacking Pentecostalism from the Unknown Mystery Scribe of the netherworld!

  105. I haven’t been playing with Phillip for a while and it was funny watching him trapped in this thread.

    But I found this really funny.

    Here is a really easy way for you to make 10,000 dollars.

    Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District

    Justice Jones, a conservative appointed by George W Bush, ruled against the teaching of Intelligent Design (creationism in disguise) in US schools.

    He found that

    The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism.

    The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.

    After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science. We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980s; and (3) ID’s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. …It is additionally important to note that ID has failed to gain acceptance in the scientific community, it has not generated peer-reviewed publications, nor has it been the subject of testing and research. Expert testimony reveals that since the scientific revolution of the 16th and 17th centuries, science has been limited to the search for natural causes to explain natural phenomena.

    [T]he one textbook [Pandas] to which the Dover ID Policy directs students contains outdated concepts and flawed science, as recognized by even the defense experts in this case.

    ID’s backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID.

    Justice Jones is a Christian and for his findings received death threats and needed around-the-clock federal protection.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

  106. Hi Bones,
    how is your father in law’s highly credible testimony developing?

    Bones, I’ve posted my first impression opinion of you. It didn’t change after you posted StarTrek clips.

    And your area of expertise still eludes me. You teach apparently so are apparently ‘good’ at something? But that subject matter, for all you have said here, totally escapes me.

    You are an evolutionist Bones with all the intellectual ‘rigor’ that involves.

    No Bones – you don’t get it. I’m keep talking, like, past you.

    The bible describes you sufficiently enough.

  107. More lies.

    Birds of a feather….

    A mountain of factual information has been produced demonstrating Ergun Caner has engaged in gross dishonesty in his self-promoting claims. Yet, now that he has “cover” from the likes of Norman Geisler, Caner is back to his old ways, mocking his critics and spinning a tale.

    Ergun Caner’s Arrogant Dismissal of His Own Falsehoods

  108. Yes, Christians are so much better than Muslims. Christians believe liars to justify their bigotry and hatred.

    Wanna make some monney. Go around Evangelical Christians claiming you’re an ex-jihadist. Make up any story you want. They’ll treat you as a hero.

    Ergun Caner Exposed as a Serial Liar

    By R. A. MCGOUGH | Published: APRIL 29, 2010

    Mark 4:22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

    I have been following the controversy around Egun Caner’s false testimony for a couple months now. There have been hundreds of pages of evidence posted all over the internet. Here is a brief intro from Wade Burleson’s blog called Grace and Truth to You:

    Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner, President of Liberty Seminary in Lynchburgh, Virginia has been caught in a web of deception of his own making. Dr. Caner has publicly stated that he came to the United States at age fifteen having been trained to be a jihadist. In reality, Caner came to Ohio at age four and lived a comfortable, American life. Dr. Caner has also publicly stated that his first language was Arabic and he was trained in a madrassa in Turkey. Several International Mission Board missionaries who speak fluent Arabic have emailed me, horrified at what they have heard Dr. Caner try to pass off as his native Arabic during his audio and video sermons at SBC churches. They confirm what others have been saying–he is speaking complete gibberish. The myth Dr. Caner has created about himself seems now to be unraveling. He never came to America “via Beirut and Cairo.” He has never been trained as a fundamentalist Muslim. He has never had been a jihadist. He has never debated top Muslim scholars, in Nebraska or anywhere else. It is impossible for any of us to understand why someone would fabricate or embellish his past, but there’s a great deal of money to be made selling books and DVD’s about Islam in post 9/11. Whose a better expert on the subject than a radical jihadist who has converted to faith in Jesus Christ, right?

    Caner fabricated his history as a member of the “Islamic Youth Jihad” immediately after the events of 9/11. A good review of this evidence is found on the FBC Jax Watchdog blog which has an audio recording of Caner’s presentation to the FBC Jax on Nov 20, 2001 in which Caner claimed to have come to America when he was 15 years old, “trained to do that which was done on September 11.” Listening to his lies is truly revolting. He even tried to put on a fake Middle-Eastern accent at first, but it quickly faded as he fell back into the cadence of his typical Midwestern accent.

    I have confirmed the statements by Wade Burlseon and many others by examining the evidence found in Caner’s many video and audio recordings still available on the net. I have been saving them to my computer because there is a concerted effort by many “Christians” to cover up the scandal by deleting the evidence. When Caner was first confronted by the evidence, he removed his bio from his website for over a month, and then put up a bio that omits any details that have been exposed as false. What PRESIDENT of a THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY deletes his own bio? I can not think of a more direct admission of guilt. But it get’s worse! Liberty University is in collusion with Caner and they also deleted his bio from their site for a while, and now have replaced it with the false statements conveniently removed as if they were never there. This means that Liberty University has full knowledge of Caner’s lies, and have chosen to deceive everyone! Furthermore, John Ankerberg, who was instrumental in propagating Caner’s lies, has edited at least one video file to hide evidence, and also demanded that the excerpts of those videos that critics posted on YouTube under the “fair use” clause be removed for “copyright violation.” Thus we see how a “little leaven leavens the whole lump.” Major Christian leaders have chosen to actively deceive their audience to protect themselves from the revelation of truth.

    But there is much more to this story. Caner shot to national fame with the post-9/11 opportunistic book “Unveiling Islam: An Insiders Look of Muslim Life and Belief” coauthored with is brother Emir, who also is complicit in the deceptions (at least passively since he has not corrected his brothers many lies). I have only just begun to read this book, but if my initial impression is correct, the subtitle should have read “An Outsider’s Caricature of Islam based on Ignorant Stereotypes.”

    It is for these reasons, and many more, that Ergun Caner is now seen by some as The Mike Warnke of this Generation.

    http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/index.php/2010/04/29/ergun-caner-exposed-as-a-serial-liar/

    But hey he’s PG’s hero.

  109. Lol @ the CMI, the Creationist website. This gu’s lies are all over the internet. He’s been found out as a complete and utter fraud.

    They want to be taken seriously as a scientific organisation yet have this liar on them..

    I’m not surprised.

    Creationist ministries aren’t interested in the truth and aren’t even Christian.

  110. Of course what frauds like Ergun Caner, Danny Nalliah and their disciple PG have done is thoroughly discredit Jesus to Muslims and those in the world and made faith in Him a source of suspicion and mistrust.

    Which is what the Creationist websites do as well.

    Well done guys, Satan would be proud of you. (If he was real)

  111. You’re a disgrace to Christianity – a peddlar of lies and fiction all the while dragging Jesus’s name in the mud with your vindictive witchhunt against Muslims. You’re part of the cancer plaguing Evangelical Christianity.

    Oh the irony that this reprobate germ has set himself as better than Muslims.

  112. Of course what frauds like Ergun Caner, Danny Nalliah and their disciple PG have done is thoroughly discredit Jesus to Muslims and those in the world and made faith in Him a source of suspicion and mistrust.

    Which is what the Creationist websites do as well.

    Well done guys, Satan would be proud of you. (If he was real)

    Damn I wish there was a like button on this blog!

  113. I emailed CMI on that Emir Caner article complete with all thoe links I used here.

    I’m very interested to their response.

    “but there’s a great deal of money to be made selling books and DVD’s about Islam in post 9/11.”

    Ca-ching. Ca-ching.

    It’s all about the money.

  114. Greg, you certainly got me thinking about who sets up a web site to attack orthodox Christianity.

    And does your right hand or your left hand do most of the “exploring”?

    You can play all you like, till the Great White Throne.

    sorry about the previous typo

  115. All imperiousness can be metered out in unrestrained ethical satisfaction against orthodox Christianity – is this the ethic here?

    Who are the enemies of the Christian Gospel?

    Who white anted/ actively undermines Christendom?

    Here is the morality then Ian, Steve,

    Christians do or are guilty of xyz [whatever fashion statement suits} so therefor we don’t have to answer to the Christian God, follow or believe the Christian Gospel.

    We don’t believe Christianity but we are entitled to say who isn’t Christian and who is?

    There’s no such thing as a de jure Christian Church but women can definitely be ordained in it?

    I haven’t insulted anyone since the 15th of March but “pedophile Phil” is certainly my better judgment?

    Here then are people who “accuse”? Now accuser of the brethren exists as a scriptural appellation, Who wears it?

    So a web site that targets Christians with libelous accusations, animated by someone who says there is no satan?

    Hmmmmmmm. So what are you chaps doing here?

    What have you achieved?

  116. CMI says Emir Caner has done nothing wrong.

    Thanks for writing in. For reasons that will hopefully become clear in the rest of the response, I won’t be publishing this comment.

    Before we approached Dr Caner as a possible interviewee, we investigated and could find no concrete evidence of his involvement in this scandal. Our research was necessarily brief (so we don’t pretend to have exhaustive knowledge of the case), and we took Caner’s continued good standing at his university as a good sign (i.e., it’s unlikely that Truett-McConnell would have let their president remain if he were complicit in this deception). Our interview was also based on the topics of creation, Islam, and higher education, not the biographical details which were fabricated by Dr Caner’s brother. We never make any claim to endorse an interviewee’s positions or actions outside of the actual content of the interview. There’s always the possibility that an interviewee has ‘skeletons in his closet’, but we don’t presume to put ourselves in a place to judge. And I am sure you agree that one should not be hung by the court of public opinion or the internet—i.e. be guilty until proven innocent. Indeed, there have been many investigations by others, including the college he attends, and no wrongdoing has been found. It would therefore be improper for us to judge him on the basis of internet watchdog sites.

    We were glad of an opportunity to cover some interesting and important issues in this interview, which was the main reason for the article, and I hope that the article will inform and encourage our readers, and not focus on unproven negatives.

    Sincerely,

    Lita Cosner

  117. My response to CMI

    “and we took Caner’s continued good standing at his university as a good sign (i.e., it’s unlikely that Truett-McConnell would have let their president remain if he were complicit in this deception).”

    Well he was actually removed from his post as Dean at Liberty University, because of “factual statements that are self-contradictory.”

    Also considering his tweets where he calls Muslims “Towel Heads”, “wife beaters” and “Living in Caves”.

    http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/caner-now-attacking-muslims-calling.html

    As a Christian I’m astounded that you have him on here as a commentator on Islam when the guy has deceived Brothers and Sisters in Christ and made it harder for Christians to witness to Muslims. Let alone the mistrust and suspicion which Muslims hold Christians as well as our Saviour Jesus Christ.

  118. CMI says Emir Caner has done nothing wrong.

    There’s PG’s organisation for you.

    Can’t even do a basic background check on a liar and bigot and still promotes him as an expert in Islam.

    And these guys want to get in our schools.

  119. “Who are the enemies of the Christian Gospel?”

    That’s easy.

    PG, CMI, Ergun Caner.

    The ones who hate truth and are making a mockery of Jesus Christ.

  120. You’re seriously confused Bones. Read the letter again.

    And CMI did what you or Greg the Explorer haven’t got the decency the to do – they apparently contacted the subject of their published piece.

    You who make unsupported assertions about your father in law’s incredible escape from jail but can’t contact Mister Nalliah for a comment to help reconcile any differences in narration of a ? 25 years ago years involvement with the Saudi Arabian underground church.

    Meanwhile a witnessed resurrection gets no comment at all.

    And you can’t even ask the elephant in the room question why it is an underground church?

    Incredible.

    But you are unteachable and here more or less to harass Christians even if this is a back waters site populated by a meagre handful of people.

    The intellectual question of abiogenesis escapes you completely apparently. Of course you can’t give an answer to a question you don’t understand.

    The bible indeed has much to say about conversation with your type and I should not make specific its claims with regard to that.

    So Bones, stay hidden behind Einstein’s mocking face – Here is your man partially deconstructed. But no, you won’t get this either:

    http://www.cracked.com/article_19668_6-scientific-discoveries-that-laugh-in-face-physics_p2.html

    Fact is Bones, I don’t quite consider you up to an adult conversation. So taking the Bible’s advice I’ll stick to the relevant.

  121. Acragas, 490 – 430 BC]
    The Pythagorean influence dominated Greek thought for a long time. Many of Pythagoras’ ideas can be found in the work of Empedocles. He was the first philosopher who stated that there are four primordial elements: earth, air, fire and water. This is a somewhat statesman-like compromise between the view of Pythagoras who maintained that water is the primordial substance, Anaximenses who said it is air, and finally Heraclitus who said that fire is the origin of everything. The ingenious combination of these views was Empedocles’ major contribution to the dispute about the primordial element, which lasted almost as long as Greek philosophy itself.

    Empedocles came from a rich and illustrious family in Acragas at the south coast of Sicily. It is said that his grandfather won a victory in the horse-racing at the Olympic games of 496 BC. He was a politician of Acragus who represented the democratic group and he also worked as a scientist and physician.

    Legend tells us that Empedocles worked miracles by magic and by his scientific knowledge thus he was often approached by the citizens of Acragus for oracles. People believed he could control the winds and he had allegedly restored to life a woman who had seemed dead for thirty days. He spoke of himself as a god sometimes and his desire to be godlike made him ending his life by leaping into the crater of the Etna volcano, hoping thereby not to leave any remains of his (mortal) body so that people would think he has returned to the gods.

    Like Heraclitus, he wrote his philosophical works in verse. The most important writings are “On Nature” and “Purifications” of which numerous fragments have survived. The original texts are quite enigmatic and difficult to read or translate. We will look at the chief points in plain English, hopefully without losing too much of the original content. Because synthesis was his speciality, Empedocles arrived at a new cosmology that unites the conflicting standpoints of Heraclitus and Parmenides and reconciles flux and fire with monism.

    Empedocles came to the conclusion that motion and change actually exist and that at the same time reality is fundamentally changeless, allowing the validity of both Heraclitean and Parmenidean doctrines and combining them into a new and surprising concept. As it was said before, Empedocles believed that all matter in the universe is made of the four elements, but he added something unique to the elements: the forces of Love and Strife.

    Love and Strife cannot be understood literally; instead Empedocles spoke of them as diametrically opposed cosmic principles, where Love (harmony) is the uniting force that attracts all things, thereby creating something new, and Strife (discord) is the dividing force that separates and destroys things. This notion bears some similarity to the Yin and Yang principles of ancient China. In the I-Ging, Yin is attributed to the female and Yang is attributed to the male. Together these two principles govern the totality of existence while bringing about cyclical changes, depending on whether Yin or Yang assumes dominance. This is not unlike Empedocles who contends that the history of the universe is cyclic and eternal and the primary moving factors are Love and

    Strife.http://www.thebigview.com/greeks/empedoclesvortex.gif

    http://www.thebigview.com/greeks/empedocles.html

  122. PG perhaps Greg should set up your own thread and you can add random thoughts at will, we can drop in occasionally to see if you say anything worth the effort of considering, and this thread can rest in peace.

  123. Convert feared kidnapped by Muslim hardliners
    JANUARY 13, 2012 ·

    The husband and friends of an Iranian refugee missing since last month fear she has been kidnapped by Islamic extremists because of her efforts to convert Muslims to Christianity.

    Melbourne woman Mandy Ahmadi disappeared from her Dandenong home on December 16, leaving behind her handbag, money and credit cards, The Age reported.

    Moving to Australia in 1999, Mrs Ahmadi became a Christian five years ago, and her husband Nathan converted from Islam a year later.

    Mrs Ahmadi became active in the migrant community, helping Muslims leaving detention centres through an agency she co-founded at a local church.

    “It is so painful. My heart and my brain are frozen,” Mr Ahmadi was quoted as saying.

    Pastor Daniel Nalliah expressed his concerns in an email sent out yesterday.

    “I was able to give some very important insight as to how under Islamic Sharia law, Muslims converts are sentenced to long terms in jail, torture and in places like Iran and some other Muslim countries, they are executed,” Mr Nalliah wrote.

    “If this is an abduction, then we are really fighting against time, as to whether Mandy is still alive is a very big question.”

    Under a hardline interpretation of Sharia law, Muslims who leave the religion can be sentenced to death.

    Mr Nalliah, who worked as a missionary in Saudi Arabia before founding the controversial Catch the Fire Ministries, successfully defended a lawsuit from the Islamic Council of Victoria after being accused of religious vilification in 2002.

    http://formermuslimsunited.org/convert-feared-kidnapped-by-muslim-hardliners/

  124. Wife-murder charge after backyard find

    FOR the past month, Nasir Ahmadi has been urging friends and family to pray for the safety of his wife, who has not been seen or heard from since she disappeared from their Melbourne home.

    According to Victoria Police, Mr Ahmadi knew all along where she was.

    Late yesterday, the 48-year-old Iranian refugee appeared in a small, windowless room beneath the Melbourne Remand Centre, where he was charged with murdering his wife, Zahara Rahimzadegan.

    Homicide detective Ron Iddles told a bail justice Mr Ahmadi had made “full admissions in relation to this offence” to police.

    Mr Ahmadi, who has adopted the western name Nathan, said little in the brief hearing, other than that he loved his wife, and she was now dead.

    Only a few hours earlier, police had unearthed her body in a makeshift grave beneath a newly constructed deck in the backyard of the Ashwood unit they shared in the city’s southeast with their two sons, aged 11 and 15.

    Senior Sergeant Iddles said Ms Rahimzadegan’s body had been buried, paved with concrete, concealed with more soil and then covered with decking timber.

    To reach the grave site, police had to excavate deep into the backyard with shovels and crowbars.

    Ms Rahimzadegan’s disappearance had sparked sensational claims by evangelical pastor Daniel Nalliah that Ms Rahimzadegan, who was also known as Mandy Ahmadi, may have been abducted by Islamic extremists as punishment for converting from Islam to Christianity five years ago.

    Homicide detectives investigated and found no evidence to support Mr Nalliah’s claims.

    Within 48 hours of announcing they had taken over the case they arrested Mr Ahmadi, who had claimed he came home on December 16 from a trip to the shops to find his wife missing.

    Mr Ahmadi was interviewed by detectives from 8am yesterday at the Homicide Squad’s St Kilda Road headquarters as police executed search warrants on the Ashwood property.

    While forensic teams dug up the backyard, State Emergency Services volunteers searched a creek that runs behind the block of units.

    Mr Ahmadi, a small, balding man who wore a loose-fitting, striped shirt to the out-of-sessions hearing, was not asked to enter a plea.

    He was remanded in custody to appear before the Melbourne Magistrates Court on Monday.

    The couple came to Australia with their two children as Iranian refugees in 1999, and later converted from the Islamic faith to Christianity.

    Ms Rahimzadegan was actively involved in converting Muslims to Christianity.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/wife-murder-charge-after-backyard-find/story-e6frg6nf-1226243983572

    Whoops!!

  125. Problem is of course Danny is not my brother.

    Danny has no problems falsely accusing Muslims of a crime committed by one of his mob.

    Danny is in fact condemned by his own words.

    Yet supporters of Danny wish to hide behind a biblical injunction.

  126. Dear family & friends in Christ in Australia and around the World,

    “I have also met with some of these boat people and helped them out at times. Most of the boat people seemed to be from Iran, Iraq & Afghanistan and 90% or more were Muslims. Mandy & Nathan constantly loved these people and did everything possible to help them out.

    On 16th December 2011 they gave out hampers to these people, then picked up the keys to a hall where they were going to have a Christmas party on Christmas day and returned home. Nathan dropped Mandy at home and went down to the shops. When he got back home after 40 minutes, his wife Mandy was missing. He waited all evening thinking she will come back, but up to date there is no trace of Mandy.

    Mandy has not taken her handbag nor any clothes. The circumstances under which she has gone missing seem very much like an abduction, as we all know that a lady will not go somewhere without her handbag. All of Mandy’s documents, credit cards, etc are in her hand bag left behind.

    The police are currently investigating this very serious issue. I personally met with the detective in charge of this investigation along with Nathan, the husband of the missing woman. I was able to give some very important insight as to how under Islamic Sharia law, Muslims converts are sentenced to long terms in jail, torture and in places like Iran and some other Muslim countries, they are executed.

    Even in the West there has been cases where Muslim converts to Christianity have gone missing. Unfortunately, in most cases they never find them or when they find them, it is too late. We hope that Australia is not going go down the path of Europe. I have given evidence in this regard to the US Congress some years ago and also documented some cases in my book ‘Worship Under The Sword’.

    The police were initially looking at the possibility that she might have left her husband for another man and a few other possibilities, but now the police are looking at this case as a possible abduction.

    If this is an abduction, then we are really fighting against time, as to whether Mandy is still alive is a very big question. I hope and pray that she is alive and well. Her husband and sons are going through a very hard time. They have been crying almost every day and waiting for some news about Mandy. I am in touch with Nathan almost every single day.

    Would you please join with us in praying and asking God to expose this whole issue soon before it is too late. In case it is not an abduction and that she has gone away with another man, that she will contact the family. But if it is indeed an abduction, that the police will find her soon or her abductors will release her.

    See photo of Mandy & Nathan on our website.

    Your brother in Christ,

    Pastor Daniel Nalliah,(pictured)”

    http://www.actforaustralia.com/articles/iranian-muslim-convert-christianity-missing-melbourne

    Whoops!!!

  127. THOSE THAT CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY AND PROSLETYSE: AN AUSTRALIAN EXPERIENCE

    “We’re continually told by Christians how wonderful Christianity is for the human being: How it makes the unholy be able to stand before the Holy, how the Holy Spirit guides the Christian to right action and how beautiful it is to spread it to Muslims.

    This is exactly the sort of thing that was told to Nasir Ahmadi and his wife Zahra when they immigrated to Australia from Iran 5 years ago and converted from Islam to Christianity. Zahra changed her name to ‘Mandy’ and both she and her husband then dedicated their lives to converting Muslims to Christianity.

    On the 18th of December 2011, Nasir claimed that his wife had gone missing. He, and his church colleagues (especially Danny Nahlia) started claiming that she had been kidnapped by Muslims. This allegation gathered so much momentum that it was presented in the mainstream media (for example, this article from SMH).

    The article states:

    THE husband and friends of an Iranian woman missing in Victoria since December 16 fear she has been abducted by Muslim hardliners because of her attempts to convert Muslims to Christianity….

    Pastor Danny Nalliah of Catch the Fire Ministries yesterday sent an email to his mailing list calling for ”urgent prayer” for Mandi and the family. He said he had known the family for eight years and they took a leading role in helping Muslim asylum seekers.

    Mr Nalliah and the ministries were the subject of a complaint they vilified Muslims in a 2002 seminar on jihad, which was upheld by the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal but reversed by the Supreme Court.

    Yesterday he (Nalliah) told the Herald Mrs Ahmadi ”really stuck her neck out” trying to convert Muslims and her husband was sometimes very worried for her. He said her zeal had come to the attention of militants, possibly in Iran itself.

    To support the written word, we got these sorts of news items at dinner time. Notice the emotion expressed by Nasir at the loss of his wife. Take a look here .

    So Danny Nahlia had another go at Muslims, apparently we’re all so violent and Nasir is a wonderful example of a Muslim that embraced a ‘better’ way of living. This poor man had his wife kidnapped by those violent Muslims for converting them to Christianity and sooner or later the power of prayer would turn up some clues or, better yet, her safe return.

    Sadly, Nasir wasn’t telling the truth. Detectives in Victoria Police dug up a newly laid concrete slab at the Ahmadi family home and found Zahra’s remains underneath. Within a few hours, Nasir confessed to killing his wife. The sad conclusion to this horrible story can be found here

    Ahmadi had reported Zahara missing two days after she vanished on December 16 last year.

    The couple came to Australia with their two children as Iranian refugees in 1999, and later converted from Islam to Christianity.

    Zahara was actively involved in converting Muslims to Christianity, which leading her husband and their church to repeatedly make claims that Muslim hardliners could have abducted her.

    “Maybe somebody kidnapped (her),” her husband told Network Ten earlier this week.

    “We don’t like you, you Christian and you convert the people to Christianity.”

    I don’t expect Danny Nahlia to apologise to Muslims anytime soon for the horrible allegations he laid. What will be interesting is if the other Christians that strongly supported Nasir will now continue to stand by him.

    At least their prayer for the truth was answered. Perhaps, not quite in the way they expected.”

    http://thedebateinitiative.com/2012/01/13/those-that-convert-to-christianity-and-prosletyse-an-australian-experience/

    Of course PG will pick out the important parts of this article like how Nalliah’s last name is spelt.

  128. What retard PG doesn’t understand is I see ALL fundamentalism as evil.

    I can tell that PG’s got a hard on about the bomb blast in Boston so he can have another go at the Muslims.

    Btw I thought we were talking abut Danny.

    Must have changed subject when he realised his hero wasn’t just a false prophet, paedophile worshipper but tried to influence a police investigation with his fantasies and bigotry and falsely endorsed a murderer..

    Actually he’s gotten off lightly in the media.

    Could you imagine the shit storm if this was a Liberal or Labour Party candidate?

    But at least he hates Muslims.

    That’s why we must vote for Danny.

    But on with the real issues.

    Is it (a) Nalliah (b) Nahlia (c) Nahliah?

  129. PhillipGeorge,
    Bones will wholeheartedly stand up for any, cut and copied info produced on the net,and then,’so as’,to bring down the truthful interpretation of the holy bible.

  130. EYES

    “Bones will wholeheartedly stand up for any, cut and copied info produced on the net,and then,’so as’,to bring down the truthful interpretation of the holy bible.”

    The JWs and Danny rang. They’re with you on this.

    I apologise for disturbing your inerrant understanding of a human document about God.

    Btw I’ve always been fascinated by different Christian beliefs about God.

    Unfortunately everyone thinks we should follow their Jesus. I’m more open minded about a lot of things.

    (cue Steve Taylor)

  131. Except that Danny claims to hear from God directly, as do other pentecostal minsiters – none fo whom seems to be abel to discern frauds teribly well at all – take Mike Gugluemichi as a case in point – All of the Hillsong big wigs felt his stuff was anointed by God when he turned out to be a huge cancer fraud.

    If Danny comes out adn tells us all that he in fact does not hear from God at all we will leave him alone and accept that he is just like the rest of us.

  132. Was Mohammad a trustworthy prophet accurately recording a reliable testimony from Gabriel – the archangel?

    Nope – and yet you seem (if you acept as I suspect you do, that the bible is the 100 ineerant word of God) to want to accept John the elder saying he heard from Jesus and wrote stuff down in his revelation.

    What’s your point?

  133. I only bring these things up because Danny says he hears from God. I myself would not be averse to supporting anyone even an exposed pedophile…if I am acceptable to God, anyone is.

  134. “you would have sought a comment from Mr Nalliah.- even hosted a debate. ”

    Bahaha.

    Yeah, I can imagine that conversation happening on the Catch The Fire website.

    Of course that goes for Phil Pringle (hi Zorro), Muslims, the Pope and liberal Christians who get pilloried by the nutbag fundamentalist crowd.

  135. Fundamentalism, as a definition, has shifted, and is now considered relative to its own cause, though, isn’t it? I find Greg and Bones to be as fundamentalist about their liberal and scientific religion as any militant.

    The prior understanding was that of a protestant who held to sola scriptura.

    Now it even embraces militant terrorists who follow a specific code. You basically only have to believe something to the exclusion of all else to be considered a fundamentalist. It fits Bones and Greg to a ‘t’.

  136. “I find Greg and Bones to be as fundamentalist about their liberal and scientific religion as any militant.”

    No. I don’t have truth parcelled up in a box or a book or in my own understanding. And yes my understanding of God and the world will change over the decades until I die. My understanding of God and the nature f humanity has been evolving.

    Of course I’m not making the scientific community and education bow down to my beliefs that the world was 6000 years old, snakes walked, lions were vegetarian, you could live forever or die by eating a fruit of a tree, a flood covered the whole Earth despite what the scientific evidence says.

    The Book can’t be wrong, nor my understanding of it, so everything else must be wrong.

    “You must bow down to me” is the fundie cry.

    (me=God or my understanding of Him)

  137. The fallacy of fundamentalism (Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu)

    “In order to carry out the fundamentalist program in practice, one would need a perfect understanding of the ancient language of the original text, if indeed the true text can be discerned from among variants. Furthermore, human beings are the ones who transmit this understanding between generations. Even if one wanted to follow the literal word of God, the need for people first to understand that word necessitates human interpretation. Through that process human fallibility is inextricably mixed into the very meaning of the divine word. As a result, it is impossible to follow the indisputable word of God; one can only achieve a human understanding of God’s will.”

    Fundamentalism is of course an inability to change one’s mind especially when it comes to dogma DESPITE the evidence and to impose stringent conditions on believers and what constitutes “correct” belief. This includes ostracising those who leave the fold or don’t share their dogma.

    Or as Dr James Barr, one time Oriel Professor of the Interpretation of Holy Scripture (University of Oxford) says :

    ”The real and fatal cost of fundamentalist doctrine and ideology, as a system of life. . . is its personal cost: it can be sustained as a
    viable way of life only at the cost of unchurching and rejecting, as
    persons, as thinkers or scholars, and as Christians, all those who
    question the validity of the conservative option. The presence of the questioner breaks down the unnatural symbiosis of conflicting elements which makes up the total ideology of fundamentalists. We can thus understand why ‘liberals’ and other non-conservative persons have not only to be disbelieved, discredited and overcome in argument; they have, still more, to be eliminated from the scene altogether.”

    James Barr, Fundamentalism (London: SCM, 1977, pp. 314-15)

    Science on the other hand as Richard Dawkins says

    “I am no more fundamentalist when I say evolution is true than when I say it is true that New Zealand is in the southern hemisphere. We believe in evolution because the evidence supports it, and we would abandon it overnight if new evidence arose to dispute it. No real fundamentalist would ever say anything like that …”

  138. “I am a fundamentalist”

    Yawn! So are Westboro Baptist and the nutters placing car bombs.

    Like that’s some impressive label to give yourself.

    Of course if a Muslim said that then……………….

    Well I suppose at least our nutters aren’t as violent.

    Only their god is.

  139. Bones,
    “You must bow down to me” is the fundie cry.

    Well, no! That’s a simplistic backhander based of your deliberately narrow understanding of what fundamental belief is, and it is merely a reconstruction of what those who are fundamental in belief believe.

    The basic definition of ‘fundamental’ is ‘to form a necessary base or core; of central importance’, which makes your far more extreme definition completely inappropriate for most believers.

    You have merely taken the media’s limited application of fundamentalism and applied to to devout believers.

    What you have done is take the hardest line you could find, and press it into your own psychologically adapted mould for those evangelical groups you would personally like to eradicate.

    You undoubtedly feel the world would be better off without them, and Christianity would line up better with your loose interpretation of faith, which is based, not on the Word o God, but on your need for a scientifically explainable religion in a social justice and welfare setting, what others might consider a pseudo-christian humanist theology, which, in itself, is a fundamental approach, in terms of what you consider fundamentalism to be.

    The strength of your conviction against groups you demonise puts you on the threshold of militancy. That is why you inhabit these kinds of site. You see yourself as a social crusader against what you consider to be hypocrisy or excess in the Church.

    Perhaps your trust in scripture itself, and even of God, is evolving in concept, as you say, but your opposition to certain forms of theology is well formed and dedicatedly applied, and your support of other forms, such as Catholicism, and of political justice, such as your very strong championing of Palestinian rights, gay marriage and evolution theory, are, to all intents and purposes, fundamentally formed.

    Both you and Greg have expressed your biases in very strong terms and language. You are militant in words.

    You say your concept of God is not fully formed. The average Christian fundamental evangelical would always say this. I don’t know w single devout Christian who would not say we are all looking into the mirror darkly, and gradually seeing Christ in more detail.

    Yet you call us, as Pentecostals, fundamentals who would force people like you to ‘bow down’ to us.

    Those, frankly, are the exaggerated words of a fundamentalist.

  140. If you are truly a fundamentalist, and using your definition Steve, your theology would be very basic. I agree. I AMA fundamentalist….my fundamentals are; love God and love your neighbour, everything else is an application of those two.

    You are a religious extremist, not a fundamentalist.

  141. I’m just a believer in the fundamental truths of the Bible.

    I am extremely in love with Christ. I am not at all religious.

    You have used the very language I spoke about in my last comment. You have used extreme exaggeration to stress an error of judgment. Accusing me of being a religious extremist is the arguing technique of a liberal fundamentalist who deliberately chooses to ignore the record.

  142. “I am not at all religious.”

    Even by that comment you put yourself as better than other supposed (not real in your eyes) Christians.

    re·li·gious (r-ljs)
    adj.
    1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.
    2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.
    3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.
    n. pl. religious
    A member of a monastic order, especially a nun or monk.

    If you say so.

  143. I’m not a fundamentalist.

    I can be wrong. And I’m not so proud to think that my interpretation is the only way. Hence I can learn and jettison fallacies and mistruths. Nor am I afraid of other people.

    My God is not a Cosmic Quizmaster where only those with the right answer can join His Club.

  144. …which are all contrived suppositions based on your own opinion and not borne out by either the record or reality. You seem to be very good at aiming extreme attributes at people, but when they are pointed out in you, you both retaliate and react as though affronted by the possibility that you might be as bigoted as you claim for others.

    You want to be liberal and open, but in fact you are as aggressively certain of your own ideas as you assert fundamentalists are. It’s quite extraordinary to watch.

    At least I take note of your position on issues as you present them, and do not exaggerate or make false claims as you do.

    Note the last line of your last comment, which is prime example of your exaggerative argument in action. They are the false claims of a fundamentalist who will stop at nothing to make his point.

  145. Why would you say you are not at all religious when patently you are?

    That’s an example of how fundamentalists have hijacked the meaning of words. I’m not religious I just Love the Lord.

    Yeah right.

    “but in fact you are as aggressively certain of your own ideas”

    Not particularly.

    But I am aggressively certain that you’re wrong.

    What’s quite extraordinary to watch is fundamentalists eating each other alive.

    It was funny how your lament for orthodoxy went when asked about you know who.

    “and do not exaggerate or make false claims as you do.”

    This from someone who thinks I would rather take my kids to a gay bar than a church.

    The Strawman Master.

  146. Fundamentalists whether Christian, Islamic or any other type are elitist anti-intellectuals. They believe that they and only they know the truth – but that others even though they may be smarter, more educated and thoughtful are unable to perceive this truth.

    They believe they have a short-cut to the truth and to heaven, and look down on any other pursuits whether they be scientific, humanitarian, intellectual, spiritual, sporting or exploratary as being basically worthless. The fundamentalist reasons that these pursuits will not lead to heaven, yet his beliefs are guaranteed to get him there – hence the more effort others put in the more the fundamentalist feels superior. The one exception seems to be business – fundamentalists at least of the Christian variety seem to have great respect for business success. Moral superiority also follows because the fundamentalist believes that he has a relationship with God that others do not share, hence their ethical and moral judgements must be dismissed as merely “man’s wisdom”.

    Fundamentalists claim that they have a version of their societies’ dominant religion that is somehow purer or more real than the mainstream expression of that faith. They claim they are returning to the original version of the faith, before the worldly influences and people became ‘religious’. It appeals to young people, particularly young men of limited means in societies where there is youth unemployment. Fundamentalism offers a way to self-respect by appropriating the symbols and language of the religion and applying it to their own religious expression while denying the authenticity of the beliefs of the rest of society.

    Its probably a phase we have all gone through in our youth, but hopefully we mature, start to see shades of grey and appreciate that we are just as dumb as everyone else.

    I remember an episode of ‘Monkey’ where a demi-god became strong by eating gold, but later he was tricked into eating fools-gold. After much grief and consternation he finally accepted his lot and went back to eating dirt like everyone else. In the same way I remember someone on the blog commenting that when he left pentecostalism he felt like a super-hero who had put away his cape. It hurts to put away your cape or to realise you were eating fools gold, but it is the truth and the truth sets you free.

  147. I thought you were just a censor Greg?

    Do this in remembrance of Me, said Jesus.

    That offends you!

  148. Well written Wazza.

    “but hopefully we mature”

    Yes, it’s very much like believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Or as Paul said when I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

  149. Placing demands on a Christians life. Wanting something of you. Getting some acknowledgement for who He is.

    Offends you.

  150. Bones,
    ‘This from someone who thinks I would rather take my kids to a gay bar than a church.’

    I think you have the wrong person. I never said this. Never would.

    Wazza also has taken the more recent, ugly meaning of ‘fundamentalist’ and is applying it to people whose beliefs are actually more akin to the meaning I gave earlier, ‘to form a necessary base or core’.

    I am a believer rather than a fundamentalist in the terms you apply. I believe in the fundamental accuracy of scripture as a guide to godly living. A necessary base and core to the structure of the life I believe God wants us to live, not religiously, that is bound by law, ceremony and legalism, but as a lifestyle based on following the example of Christ. This is not religion. This is life itself.

    My understanding of believing in a fundamental lifestyle based on Biblical principles is far removed from your controversial attempt at laying an accusatory version at my feet, or at the feet of those you vehemently oppose.

    You, Bones and Greg are far more radical than I am in this respect.

  151. What do you think of Jesus, who, at a relatively young age of thirty one or two said that he was the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

    Does this strike you as a fundamental statement of belief, a radical declaration and a very narrow view of the direction all other people should subsequently take?

    Should we take notice of what this highly controversial young man said, and should we apply the very limiting conditions for entry into his kingdom to our own theology and outlook, or should we look for another, broader, way?

    How does it fit in with wazza’s well-written, but non-scriptural précis?

  152. “I never said this. Never would.”

    You did. And that I support terrorists. And of course the shocking accusation you forever label me with as an evolutionist as if that’s something wrong. Oh and Catholic. Your two favourite put down terms.

    But I’m used to that. It’s the way the fundamentalists argue.

    It’s about labelling who’s out.

  153. Holy is a word Steve.
    Like a lot of words, it has a very fundamental implication.

    Language: one can’t have language without “fundamental”.
    It’s the “relativists” who are struggling with mere words. Moral relativists, social relativists, cultural relativists – words slip through their fingers.

    As you say, I AM that I AM has a fundamental essential quality.

  154. “no one comes to the father but through me” in john 14:6?

    G’day Matt

    I am enjoying reading your blogs on life remixed, especially the most recent on non violence and the debate that it is raising, brilliant, well done.

    As you are one of the few who like to challenge the orthodox and traditional Christian beliefs there are a couple of bible verses that Christian Fundamentalists quote incessantly to justify that Christianity is the only way to salvation and therefor all other faiths / religions are false. One of these verses is John 14:6 which seems extremely exclusive and supports the Fundamentalists teachings. This teaching is to the detriment of billions of people all over the world who are not Christians due to the simple fact of where they were born and the culture and beliefs of their parents.

    Your thoughts?

    Cheers

    Thanks so much for the great question. I think it is a really important issue in the context of our pluralistic culture. In regards to John 14:6: there is perhaps no verse that has been interpreted with greater arrogance. 99% of the time I have, like you, heard it used as proof that other religions are false and that to enter heaven one must believe in Jesus. It has been used for so long by some groups for the purpose of asserting faith in Jesus as the sole way of salvation that we have stopped asking what the verse might actually mean in its context!

    The problem with the regular interpretation of John 14:6 is that this is not valid conclusion in light of the context.* Jesus isn’t talking about going to heaven when you die (a mistaken view of salvation in my understanding), much less about religions with which he has probably not come into contact (either because of geographical distance eg. Buddhism, Hinduism, or chronology eg. Islam). In terms of local religions at the time, Jesus is unlikely to be referring to them in John 14:6 since there is no mention of them in the surrounding literary context.

    What is this context? Jesus is speaking to his disciples who are confused about the nature of his ministry and impending fate on the cross. Generally speaking Jesus’ message was not, after all, about going to heaven when you die, but about the kingdom of God coming on earth. In John’s Gospel “kingdom” language is generally avoided and replaced with an equivalent language of “life” – eternal life, life abundant etc.

    The disciples seem perplexed by the meaning of this; in the previous chapter (13:1-20) Jesus washes his disciples’ feet, an expression of the kingdom and a subversion of normal practice – leadership is about servanthood, not domination as was the case with all other kingdoms.

    Following this Jesus predicts his betrayal by Judas, who leaves the meal (13:21-30). He then begins to talk about being glorified (13;31f) – what is the connection? It is ambiguous at this point, but it is obviously related to his betrayal. In any case, Jesus makes clear that the place he is going is somewhere that his disciples cannot follow him, at least not until later (13:31-33, 36). In the meantime the disciples must love one another – this is a new commandment, a new Law for the community, a summary of his teaching.

    Peter responds by ignoring Jesus’ new command, returning to the subject of where Jesus is going by asking where Jesus is going (13:36). Perhaps Peter expects Jesus (along with many of his followers) to stage an uprising since he goes on to say he will follow his master by laying down his life (13:37). This is the vital clue in my opinion – Peter understands that the place where Jesus is going may require him to lay down his life. Jesus’ glorification is the cross, his impending humiliation and suffering, a complete subversion of what most of his followers would have expected glorification to look like (nothing has changed today). This glorification is not heaven.

    Indeed it is the cross, namely an embrace of subversive suffering, that Peter and others will follow in later in their deaths; for now they are not ready.

    Jesus follows this with a word of comfort in light of the discouraging reality that Judas betrays, Jesus will die and the disciples are cowards – Do not let your hearts be troubled (14:1). The consolation includes that the Father’s house has many rooms which Jesus is going to prepare (14:2-4). Contrary to much contemporary interpretation there is no notion in the text that this refers to heaven. It seems to me that instead it refers to the Jerusalem Temple since back in John 2:16 this is what Jesus is talking about when he uses the phrase “my Father’s house”.

    In that episode John has Jesus redefining the Temple as his own body. If we allow this theological redefinition to remain consistent throughout John we should conclude that in John 14 Jesus is preparing a place for the disciples in himself! For Jesus this is the same as being in the Father, since the Son is in the Father, and the Father in the Son (14:9-14).

    In my view this concept of being “in the Son/Father” is a way that John talks about the kingdom of God; it is a deep “knowing” of Jesus (being in him) and thus an embrace of the Way of Christ and the reign of God. It is entry into the new life of the ages that Jesus is promising.

    But it only comes by way of the cross…

    Thomas, still puzzled, misses the point and asks, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” (14:5) Though this is a misunderstanding of Jesus’ words note that Thomas has not asked, “How do we get to heaven?” or “What about people in other religions?”

    Jesus responds with the famous statement – “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” (14:6-7) In context this is clearly not about heaven.

    Jesus does not directly answer Thomas’ question, since it implies a misunderstanding of what he has been saying. Rather Jesus’ famous reply in 14:6 is a restatement of his point all along; to paraphrase – you can enter the life of the ages (the kingdom on earth as in heaven) by following me (to the cross).

    In other words Jesus says, “If you want to know what God is like, and what being his people looks like, then look at me.” What follows from Philip’s response (14:8) onwards in which Jesus discusses the life of discipleship seems to confirm this interpretation.

    In terms of the initial question, I can’t justify the view that John 14:6 expressed exclusivism based on my reading. It seems to me the crux of “coming to the Father” is not about salvation of the soul but about knowing Christ and following him to the cross. In doing so we come to our place of belonging – we embrace the will of the Father. We know him.

    http://liferemixed.net/2012/02/09/qr-no-one-comes-to-the-father-but-through-me-in-john-146/

  155. From Piieces to Peace: More Than Just Neighbours In a Multifaith World.

    A collection of talks at Anabaptist Association of Australia and New Zealand’s (AAANZ) national conference back in January this year. The theme of the conference was From Pieces to Peace: More than Just Neighbours in a Multifaith World.

    Jesus calls for followers who will be merciful neighbours, loving others as we love ourselves. In Australia and New Zealand today many of our neighbours are Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim or people with no defined faith. How are we at being neighbours to so many who are so different from ourselves? We’d also like the challenge of going beyond being merely neighbourly and like Jesus embody the love of neighbour as the ground for reconciliation… which is also the foundation for peace.

    mp3 of Dave Andrews

    http://www.anabaptist.asn.au/index.php?type=page&ID=3786

    Dave Andrews bio

    “”Dave and his wife Ange arrived to work in Afghanistan in 1973. At the age of 22, they set up an open home in Delhi – a half-way house for the thousands of disillusioned travellers passing through India.

    Within a short time the house was home to scores of junkies, freaks and just plain ordinary people. Some were desperately sick with hepatitis, tuberculosis and typhoid. Others had been robbed of passports and money. Others were strung out on drugs or disorientated by weird religious experiences. Others felt abandoned in a strange land, far from home.

    This community house, with its atmosphere of faith and love, became home for hundreds of people.

    For five years Dave and Ange worked intimately with these people, supporting them through their personal crises – even when they hurled plates of food at the wall, stabbed themselves, jumped off the roof, swung on the power lines or ran down the street naked.

    Many of these people seemed to remain the same – in spite of the constant care. But others, like Schultz (not his real name), experienced dramatic change. Schultz had grown up wild on the streets of Austria. After some years he became a morphine addict. He skipped military duty, forged his passport and went to India where he overstayed his visa. While staying with Dave and Ange, he became a follower of Jesus.

    Schultz decided to deal with his past and start afresh. He turned himself into the authorities and served a jail sentence for overstaying his visa. He was then deported to Austria where he served another jail sentence for forging his passport. Because of his pacifist beliefs, Schultz refused to serve the balance of his military duty and opted to sweep the streets for two years instead. Today, Schultz is minister of a church in Austria.

    Five years after establishing that Dilaram community in India, the number of local people coming for help began to increase. More and more, Dave and Ange became convinced that they should start a community with Indians – solely for Indians.

    So began Aashiana, meaning ‘nest’ – a place where broken people could become whole persons and ‘learn to fly again’.

    Under the auspices of Aashiana, Dave and Ange and their Indian friends set up a small but unique therapeutic community known as Sahara. Today Sahara is so well regarded as a rehabilitation centre, that people with personality disorders and drug dependency come to it from all over India.

    All those who come for help are encouraged to help others. They are put to work serving the poor. Consequently, out of Sahara has emerged Sharan, a community development ministry. Today Sharan is recognised as one of the largest and most energetic voluntary organisations working in the slums and resettlement areas of Delhi, sponsoring educational, health, employment and community programmes with up to 40,000 forgotten people.

    In 1984 Dave and Ange had to leave their beloved India when the Indian Government did not issue them visas to stay.

    Back in Australia, they began working with the dispossessed people in that society: Aborigines, refugees, migrants, battered women, broken men, abused children, and those with mental and emotional problems.

    They found the principles for working with people who had been pushed to one side were the same in Australia as they were in India.

    There is one thing you need to know about Dave Andrews. He is dangerous. For example, after Indira Gandhi was shot, two or three thousand people were killed in twenty-four hours in the riots that followed. Mobs rampaged through streets looking for Sikhs to murder. Dave convinced Tony, a friend , that it was their job to go out and save these Sikhs. Finding a besieged house, they put themselves between an armed mob and a Sikh family and saved them from certain death. That’s why Dave Andrews is dangerous. He is ordinary, yet believes ordinary people should take extraordinary risks to confront the cruelty in our world.”

    David Engwicht, Author Eco-City”

  156. Steve, fundamentalism was started by Christians in the early 20th Century as a reaction to Modernism. They saw a conflict between their faith and the secular modern society they were living in, particularly evolutionary science and modern biblical scholarship. So they decided to turn their back on it, by going back to the ‘fundamentals’ of their faith.

    In doing so they gave up relevancy and the chance to participate and influence the intellectual and cultural life of their societies. Their churches became cultural back-waters after the Scopes Monkey trial, and the term ‘fundamentalist’ became one of derision in wider society.

    It was later applied to groups in Islam and other religions because people saw the same type of psychological/belief profile. Anti-intellectualism and rejection of the modern world, coupled with black-and-white thinking. Fundamentalists can be radicalised and become dangerous because they live in an intellectual bubble that has become part of their identity.

  157. Bones, first the bad news. The Matt Anslow exegesis was a confusing journey to nowhere. He clearly doesn’t know that he believes. Wrong. Jesus is, without question, saying He is the only Way to the Father. There is no other way.

    If you believe the tripe in the quote I really think you have let something vital behind.

    Your second entry on Dave Andrews was inspirational. I’m not sure how it’s connected to what we are saying, but my hat off to his ministry. Right.

    By the way, I think you have the wrong person. If you can show that I said that about your children, I am truly sorry, but it doesn’t sound like me.

    You also exaggerated the other claims, which is par for your course.

    Wazza, thanks for that clarifying run down of fundamentalism. That the meaning of the term, of course, has shifted, and maybe in more than one opposing direction. There is the militant version and purely devout, Bible believing version.

    It’s too easy for people like Bones and Greg to slam down the gauntlet and declare genuine Christians who love God and His Word and take Him at face value to be militant bigots simply for believing.

    It is now, of course, impossible to consider yourself a believer in the fundamental tenets of scripture without people like Bones and Greg jumping on you and levelling all kinds of mud at you. Sadly, there’s no English word which fits better.

  158. Steve. I think they have rejected the Gospel.

    Sophistry demands an endless list of reasons. In their minds they can thus be champions of something. Even heroic.

    It’s simply an end. Laodicea was given a time.

    Remember Jesus. The one history testifies of.

    Orthodox is sound. [Maybe at times gets to sound like the snap of a mouse trap breaking a little mammal’s spinal cord – an instant death]

    I’m off – possibly to stir this pot a day or three…
    http://www.fstdt.com/
    …. a confab of heathens, pagans, newagers, self righteous, & some people who genuinely don’t know their left hand from their right – a little town in Ninevah perhaps – a Zoar to Lot – an accidental town spared from the hour.

    cheers

  159. Jesus: ‘The Way, the Truth, the Life’

    If the only people who can be saved are those who know the word ‘Jesus,’ salvation is dependent on syllables.

    Is

    Jesus
    the only way to salvation, and is

    Christianity
    therefore the only true religion? Or is God truthfully and adequately known in other religions as well, so that Christianity is one of the great religions, but not the only way? It’s a controversial issue that divides fundamentalist and conservative Christians from moderate and liberal Christians.

    The verse most frequently quoted in this debate is one attributed to Jesus in John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me.” For many centuries, it has been the classic “proof text” for Christian exclusivism–the notion that salvation is possible only through Jesus, and thus only through Christianity.
    But is that what it means? Is that how it should be read? Most mainline biblical scholars don’t think so.

    As is generally the case with words attributed to Jesus in John, the verse does not go back to Jesus himself. Written near the end of the first century, John’s gospel is the product of a relatively late stage in the developing tradition of the early Christian movement. Though all four gospels combine historical memory with metaphorical narrative, John is the most metaphorical and furthest removed from the deeds and words of Jesus. Put positively, John is the most symbolic of the gospels.

    The first key to reading this text again is setting it in John’s historical context. According to most scholars, the gospel was written late in the first century, in a setting of intense conflict between Christian Jews and non-Christian Jews. The setting is reflected especially in the ninth chapter of John, which refers to people being “put out of the synagogue” as the consequence of following Jesus.

    In that world, to be “put out” from the synagogue was far more serious than being expelled from a Christian congregation or denomination is in our world. To be expelled from the synagogue meant no longer to be considered a Jew (or at least not an acceptable Jew). In a traditional society where most people lived their entire lives in the same village or town, it was a powerful social sanction. Those expelled faced social ostracism. Among other things, it disrupted relationships within families and with neighbors, and made marriage to “proper” Jews difficult or impossible.

    Followers of Jesus were not threatened with such expulsion during his lifetime. At the earliest, it happened a decade or two after the destruction of the Temple in the year 70. Thus, John 9 not only suggests an approximate date for the gospel, but also points to the historical situation facing John and his community. They were experiencing painful social ostracism by non-Christian Jews. As a result, some of John’s community may have been tempted to return to their community of origin.

    This is the setting for the words, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me.” John was not thinking of all the religions of the world, but of the synagogue across the street. In effect he was saying, “Stay within the community of Jesus–don’t go back to the way you left behind.”

    It is important not to see this reading of the verse as a rejection of Judaism, as if other religions are all right, but not Judaism. The verse is not an absolute pronouncement about all other religions or about all other forms of Judaism for all time, but a pastoral exhortation in a particular historical setting. In short, reading the verse in historical context relativizes it.

    Yet the text may have a universal meaning as well. We see this by using a second key to reading the text again, namely paying attention to the text’s central metaphor: Jesus is the way. A “way” is a path or a road to be followed. A “way” is not a set of beliefs.

    So, Jesus is “the way.” What does this metaphor, applied to a person, mean? We need to ask, “What is Jesus’ ‘way’ in John’s gospel?” Or, “What is ‘the way’ which Jesus is?” The answer is found in the movement or dynamic of the gospel as a whole as well as in a single verse.

    If we look at the gospel as a whole, we see that from the beginning, Jesus’ way leads to his death. This death is also, for John, his glorification. The way is the path of death and resurrection. If we look at a single verse, we read, “Very truly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain; but if it dies, it bears much fruit” (John 12:24). In short, for John, the way or path of Jesus is the path of death and resurrection understood as a metaphor for the religious life. That way–the path of dying to an old way of being and being born into a new way of being–is the only way to God.

    The same point is made in a story I heard about a sermon preached by a Hindu professor in a Christian seminary several decades ago. The text for the day included the “one way” passage, and about it he said, “This verse is absolutely true–Jesus is the only way.” Then, he continued, “And that way–of dying to an old way of being and being born into a new way of being–is known in all of the religions of the world.” The “way” of Jesus is a universal way, known even to millions who have never heard of Jesus.

    The way of Jesus is thus not a set of beliefs about Jesus. That people ever thought it was is strange, when we think about it–as if one entered new life by believing certain things to be true, or as if the only people who can be saved are those who know the word “Jesus.” Thinking that way virtually amounts to salvation by syllables.

    Rather, the way of Jesus is the way of death and resurrection–the path of transition and transformation from an old way of being to a new way of being. To use the language of incarnation that is so central to John, Jesus incarnates the way. Incarnation means embodiment. Jesus is what the way embodied in a human life looks like.

    http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2000/08/Jesus-The-Way-The-Truth-The-Life.aspx#

  160. So now, according to Bones, Jesus is merely a couple of syllables and Bones is a polytheist.

    The fact that, only a few days ago, Bones was saying that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord is suddenly made redundant by his own need to win an argument with an evangelical at any price.

    ‘Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven by which a man can be saved’.

    “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

  161. There are alternative interpretations.

    The question is what does Jesus mean when He says He is the way, the truth and the life?

    I think the two articles I posted are actually more biblically and contextually accurate then the traditional view that Jesus is the only way to heaven.

    The two people that Jesus acclaimed for their faith in the Bible, the Syro-Phoenician woman and the Roman Centurion weren’t Jews or Christians yet Jesus proclaimed what faith they had.

    It’s lamentable that a Christian would never congratulate a person from another religion for their great faith.

    That’s pretty tragic and not Jesus.

  162. Romans 2:14-16

    “14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 6 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

    The law is on every human heart. God’s Spirit exists in every human being who is the image of the Creator God. Evidence of this universal law is the Golden Rule.

    Christianity

    All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
    Matthew 7:1

    Ancient Egyptian:

    “Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do.”
    The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 – 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to circa 1800 BCE and may be the earliest version of the Epic of Reciprocity ever written.

    Confucianism

    Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state.
    Analects 12:2

    Buddhism

    Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
    Udana-Varga 5,1

    Hinduism

    This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you. Mahabharata 5,1517

    Islam

    No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
    Sunnah

    Judaism

    What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
    Talmud, Shabbat 3id

    Taoism

    Regard your neighbor’s gain as your gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.
    Tai Shang Kan Yin P’ien

    Zoroastrianism

    That nature alone is good which refrains from doing another whatsoever is not good for itself.
    Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5

    Jainism

    “A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. ”
    Sutrakritanga 1.11.33

    Bahai

    “And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself.”
    Epistle to the Son of the Wolf.

    Brahmanism:

    “This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you”.
    Mahabharata, 5:1517 ”

    The Golden Rule which Jesus spoke is an element of the major religions.

    Could it be that God spoke to them too? Could it be that compassion and mercy, the traits of the ever compassionate and merciful God are etched onto all our hearts?

    I think so.

  163. I’m not a polytheist.

    There is only one God. This God exists and communicates outside of Christianity as well.

    This revelation is imperfect.

    Is it other people’s fault if they haven’t had the perfect revelation of God as seen by Jesus?

  164. That’s a really good point, I’ve often spoken to other people about their faith, and admired their practices…Muslims praying together in a park….I’d never considered the fact that Jesus actually praised people of other faiths for their faith! Thought provoking.

  165. Just on that:

    Is it only Christians who have the Holy Spirit?

    Galatians 5:22-26

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    If a community of people, Christian or otherwise, reflect the fruits of the Spirit then it must follow that the Spirit of Jesus is with them too.

    If a community is showing the fruits of the Spirit then that community should be acceptable to me too.

    Unless I say that that Spirit is not of God.

  166. So, please explain to me what the gospel is all about.

    I’m missing something here.

    You’re saying Israel would have been saved anyway? That the Word saying that all have sinned and fallen short of he glory of God doesn’t mean anything as long as people are good to one another and love some kind of deity, it’s all cosier, they can all be saved.

    So, Black Sabbath fans are OK as long as, in loving Satan, they treat one another with bonhomie.

    That would mean Mormons will get through, despite Joseph Smith’s error and JWs are dead set certainties for salvation, despite the Arian controversy.

    In fact, what was the early church you often rely on for theological evidence going on about with all the various councils which determined such important issues as coming up with the Apostle’s Creed?

    What you’re actually proposing, and have for some time now, is a universalistic salvation by good works, not by faith in Jesus Christ. This is a patently false gospel.

  167. You see, Bones, Christianity is about Christ. Yes. Christ-ianity. Following Christ. Being Christ-like. Christ is the central person in the Bible. He is the Messiah, the Saviour, the Lamb Slain before the Foundation of the World.

    It’s about the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. It’s about God sending His Only Begotten Son into the earth to give His life at the cross to save the world from sin. It is about the Love of God which sent the Son.

    It’s never been about good works which save. not our good works.

    Yes, if a person were to see God in the creation and live according to law, albeit by faith, they would, through their belief and lifelong obedience, be accepted as righteous, but God has said not one has lived without sin. Not one. None is righteous.

    What you are proposing removes the need of the cross, of the resurrection, of Christ Himself.

    Why did Jesus come, Bones? Why was the Word made flesh? Why did the Son leave glory and humble Himself as a man, and subject Himself even to death itself in obedience to God the Father?

    You have just presented the broadway, which Jesus considered the road to destruction.

    You are not a preacher of the gospel, but of apostasy.

  168. The early church wrestled with fundamental Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the Deity of Christ and passed judgement on heresies.

    They’re important for Christians but Jesus is more than that.

    Consider the thief on the cross who recognised that Jesus was innocent.

    He didn’t proclaim Jesus as God, a Son of God, Messiah, a Trinitarian God or even a prophet yet Jesus said this afternoon you will be with me in Paradise. He didn’t even have an understanding of why Jesus died nor did he accept Jesus into his heart.

    So was Jesus wrong?

    Did the thief even repent?

    Can you display the fruit of the Spirit and not have the Spirit?

  169. “Why did Jesus come, Bones? Why was the Word made flesh? Why did the Son leave glory and humble Himself as a man, and subject Himself even to death itself in obedience to God the Father?”

    To defeat death, the result of sin. It was death that the ransom was paid to. Hence the resurrection. Also to reveal God.

    This victory applies to all people, whether you believe or not.

    Otherwise Jesus’s death for most of humanity was in vain.

    The Disciples kept worshipping in synagogues btw. They worshipped as and with Jews until THEY were kicked out.

  170. Bones,
    If a community of people, Christian or otherwise, reflect the fruits of the Spirit then it must follow that the Spirit of Jesus is with them too.

    Jesus,
    “If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever–the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.”

    “Whom the world cannot receive”

    Being good is not the sign of the Spirit. Being good is the sign of a clear conscience.

    The Spirit comes as a result of faith in Christ.

    “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

    The Holy Spirit is the evidence of Christ in our lives.

    Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’”

  171. Bones, your doctrine is all over the place, and is completely error.

    What you preach is an affront to the gospel.

  172. You’ve changed it to being good. How dishonest!

    Are these fruits of the Spirit?

    Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

    If I display these qualities does the Spirit live in me or not?

  173. Really Steve, what was the thief on the cross’s doctrinal statement? Was he orthodox in your eyes?
    Did he accept Jesus into his heart.
    At best he identifies Jesus as an innocent man.
    Jesus accepted him as he was. There on the cross.

    Maybe God’s greater than doctrine.

  174. Well, it’s God who sets out the way a person is saved, not I.

    You’re basically saying we don’t need the gospel. The thief on the cross entered paradise and there Jesus preached to the spirits. Did he receive Christ? I would say he did, but only God knows.

    Jesus went to the cross for the remission of sins. Death is the reward for sin, so yes death was dealt with too. But people are still dying. Our last enemies are death and the grave. But the grave has no sting for the man who has his sins forgiven, and those who receive Christ are cleansed of sin and made righteous in Him.

  175. “Well, it’s God who sets out the way a person is saved, not I.”

    And thank God for that otherwise the afterlife would truly be a lonely place for you.

    The thief wasn’t baptised either.

    “But the grave has no sting for the man who has his sins forgiven, ”

    No, the grave has no sting for anyone, forgiven or not.

    Interesting that you doubt the thief was ‘saved’. You’re doubting Jesus’s own words because Jesus doesn’t match your understanding of how a person could be saved.

  176. Looks as if the Islamists in some nations have yet to tone down their religious attitudes towards infidels.

    It seems the majority of Bangladeshi Islamists prefer to eliminate opponents rather than go thorough a time consuming democratic process:

    ‘Police in Bangladesh have used stun grenades and rubber bullets to disperse a huge demonstration by Islamist protesters in the capital Dhaka.

    Thousands fled as police took control of the central business district.

    Up to half a million supporters of the group Hefazat-e Islam had gathered in the city to call for stronger Islamic policies. Rioters went on to set fire to shops and vehicles.

    At least 10 people were killed and 60 injured in clashes with police.

    Some casualties suffered bullet wounds in the head, hospital sources say.

    ‘Hang atheists’
    Thousands of Islamist activists were seen fleeing the Motijheel area as police moved in to take control of the area, the BBC Bengali service reports.

    Early on Monday, a police spokesman said officers had secured the business district and were searching for protesters hiding in nearby buildings.

    The area around the city centre’s largest mosque had turned into a battleground as police reacted to stone-throwing rioters with tear gas, rubber bullets and truncheons.

    On Sunday, crowds of protesters blocked main roads, isolating Dhaka from other parts of the country.

    Dhaka’s Daily Star newspaper reports that the group hired at least 3,000 vehicles, including buses, lorries and minibuses to bring demonstrators into the capital, while others travelled there by train.

    Chanting “Allahu Akbar!” (“God is greatest!”) and “One point! One demand! Atheists must be hanged”, the activists marched down at least six main roads as they headed for Motijheel, AFP news agency reported.

    Continue reading the main story

    At least 10 people have been killed and more than 60 injured in continuing clashes between police and Islamist activists in Bangladesh’s capital Dhaka
    Continue reading the main story
    1/5
    Hefazat-e Islam wants greater segregation of men and women, as well as the imposition of stricter Islamic education.

    The movement draws its strength from the country’s madrassahs, or religious schools.

    Its opposition to a national development policy for women has angered women’s groups.

    The government, which describes Bangladesh as a secular democracy, has rejected Hefazat-e Islam’s demand for a new law on blasphemy.

    Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina said current legislation was adequate.

    Muslims make up nearly 90% of the country’s population, with the rest mostly Hindus.’

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22423815

  177. And bloggers would be one of the target groups for these militants from the ‘religion of peace’.

    Islamist groups in Bangladesh have held a rally in the capital, Dhaka, calling for tough curbs on bloggers who insult the Islamic religion.

    Police say 100,000 people gathered for the rally after a “long march” from around the country to take part.

    A 45-year-old man was killed on Friday when some activists clashed with supporters of the ruling Awami League.

    Bus and river transport was halted and groups opposed to the rally announced a day-long shutdown.

    The marchers called for a new blasphemy law, with the provision of the death penalty to punish those who insulted Islam and the Prophet Muhammad.

    Their group, Hefajat-e-Islam, put forward a total of 13 demands, criticising the government for not taking action against what it called “atheist bloggers”.

    The marchers set off for the capital soon after Friday prayers from the southern city of Chittagong and other parts of the country, the BBC’s Anbarasan Ethirajan reports from Dhaka.

    Blogger murdered
    In February, blogger Ahmed Rajib Haider was killed outside his home amid tensions over a tribunal judging war crimes committed during the 1971 independence war.

    Mr Haider was among a group of bloggers who had called for the execution of Islamist leaders for crimes committed in the 1971 war. Abdul Kader Mullah, leader of the main Islamist party, Jamaat-e-Islami, was jailed for life weeks before.

    Earlier this week, four bloggers were arrested on suspicion of harming religious sentiment through their work.

    One of the four had been attacked in January.

    The arrests prompted eight blog operators to black out their websites, with liberals accusing the government of yielding to Islamist pressure.

    There have been several clashes in recent weeks between Islamists and supporters of the Awami League.

    The man killed on Friday was an Awami League supporter. Ten other people were hurt when police opened fire in the Kamrangirchar area of the capital.

    Islamists accused the government of trying to foil Saturday’s rally in Dhaka by suspending transport links to the capital, our correspondent says.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22049408

    Do you think there could ever be such a thing as freedom of speech under Shariah?

    By which I mean freedom to criticise excess, injustice or violation of human rights, freedom of assembly, freedom of education for all citizens, including women, freedom of expression?

  178. More statistics from the ‘religion of peace’:

    Poll: 40% of Palestinians support suicide bombing

    A substantial number of Palestinians think suicide bombing is justified, a poll by the PEW Research Center* published this week found.

    The survey, that polled Muslims in 21 countries worldwide, found that 40 percent of Palestinians believe that attacks against civilians in defense of Islam can be often or sometimes justified.

    The support for these attacks was high in the region. Twenty-nine percent of Egyptians supported suicide bombings, and 15% of Jordanians. In Turkey, 15% view these attacks as a legitimate means to defending Islam against its enemies.

    In Afghanistan, where suicide bombings against Western targets occur frequently, 39% believed it is a justified means of resistance.

    The poll also examined Muslim views on the following topics: Homosexuality, women’s rights, Sharia Law, and honor killing.

    The findings indicate that 89% of Palestinians think homosexuality is immoral, think women must always “obey” their husband and favor the imposition of Sharia Law into their society. A smaller amount (45%) believe honor killing is sometimes justifiable.

    The poll surveyed 994 adults between December 4, 2011 and January 2, 2012.

    http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Poll-40-percent-of-Palestinians-support-suicide-bombing-311779?rz=n_02May13

    *The Pew Research Center is an American think tank organization based in Washington, D.C. that provides information on issues, attitudes and trends shaping the United States and the world.
    Wikipedia

  179. Not quite sure what you’re working yourself up about considering your God is going to be doing the same thing as they are to the entire human race for eternity.

    Do you think there’ll be press releases for the number of people burning in hell?

  180. Dhimmi
    A dhimmī (Arabic: ذمي‎ ḏimmī IPA: [ˈðɪmmiː]), (collectively أهل الذمة ahl al-ḏimmah/dhimmah, “the people of the dhimma”) is a historical term referring to non-Muslim citizens of an Islamic state. Dhimma allows rights of residence in return for taxes. According to scholars, dhimmis had their rights fully protected in their communities, but as citizens in the Islamic state, had certain restrictions. They were excused or excluded from specific duties assigned to Muslims, and otherwise equal under the laws of property, contract and obligation.

    I’ll see you, Dhimmi!

  181. Of course, atheist, gay, Jewish, Christian or female dhimmis have only the rights of suppression, and taxes alone will not save them. Dhimmis are generally considered members of the male population, as females have no rights at all except subjugation to their husband, father, or any other male, even in rape cases, unless they can produce four viable witnesses.

  182. Your universalistgod, of course, Bones, allows all this murder, mayhem, militancy, antichrist activity and anti-Semitic fervour, and even welcomes the suicide bombers who obliterate Israelis in cafés and on buses, and ushers them into His Presence, despite their Christ-denying violence and creed, support of suicide bombers and violent terrorist acts against civilians who are not of their particular religion.

  183. 1 John 4:3

    Jews are anti (against) Christ.

    Ephesians 4:6

    “one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

    God is in all. Not just the Penties or the born again types.

    Under what circumstances would you torture your own children? Or turn a blind eye as they are cast into a bottomless pit?

    What sort of a father is that?

    God however is forgiving and truly loves His enemies, even those of His children who unwittingly work against Him.

  184. Bones,
    Jews are anti (against) Christ.

    The first believers were Jews. The disciples were Jews. Jesus was a Jew. Paul was a Jew.

    So not all Jews were antichrist, clearly. John is referring to those who reject Christ. This would include people of any religious persuasion who oppose or deny Christ.

    Secondly, John refers to the spirit of antichrist, indicating a spiritual presence which influences people to deny the Father and the Son.

    Besides, the Jews were blinded by God. The veil over them was the Law of Moses. This was until a certain time. We remain in what is called the Age of the Gentiles, when the grace of God prevails and the wrath is withheld though the longsuffering and mercy of God.

    God has made the ay clear for both Jew and Greek to be one in Christ.

    Many Jews have received Christ through time, as many Gentiles have. There will come a time when Jews are drawn because they will see the glory resides with the Gentile Christians.

    Romans 11
    7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
    8 Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”
    9 And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always.”
    11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
    12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

    So they are not antichrist spirits, but blind to the truth so that the Gentiles can see.

    Your perverse doctrine fails at every turn.

  185. It is far more likely that the Antichrist spirits were of people who once counted themselves part of the Christian fold, not Jews.

    John says they came out from us, but were not of us, because had they been of us they would not have denied Christ.

    Nevertheless, John calls anyone who denies that Jesus came in the flesh antichrist.

    It’s very interesting that, despite the fact aded to the context of this thread by producing information which points to the ongoing militance of Islam in certain jurisdictions, you chose to implicate the Jews.

    That is full on dhimmitude.

    You would rather defend Islamic extremism than preach truth.

  186. In other words, rather than attempt to produce a viable defence of the patently indefensible, you seek a moral equivalent amongst those you reject.

  187. “John is referring to those who reject Christ.”

    eg Jews

    Judaism generally views Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history.[1] Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs.[2] However, since the mainstream Jewish belief is that the Messiah has not yet come and that the Messianic Age is not yet present, the total rejection of Jesus as either messiah or deity in Judaism has never been a central issue for Judaism. At the heart of Judaism are the Torah, its commandments, the Tanakh, and ethical monotheism such as in the Shema — all of which predated Jesus.
    Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God.[3][4] Jewish eschatology holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that have not yet occurred, including the return of Jews to their homeland and the rebuilding of The Temple, a Messianic Age of peace[5] and understanding during which “the knowledge of God” fills the earth,[6] and since Jews believe that none of these events occurred during the lifetime of Jesus (nor have they occurred afterwards, except for the return of many Jews to their homeland in Israel), he is not a candidate for messiah.

    It’s embarrassing when we have favourites who hold a ‘get out of hell free card’ by virtue of their birthright when this is forbidden to the rest of humanity.

    I mean that’s why we support their persecution of the Palestinians including Christians.

    Your theology is so nonsensical and your god ridiculous that it’s let atheism thrive.

    What’s worse a suicide bombing or a bullet to the back of the neck or eternity in a burning pit?

  188. “It is far more likely that the Antichrist spirits were of people who once counted themselves part of the Christian fold, not Jews.”

    Omg you’re pathetic.

    Do you honestly know nothing of the death of Jesus Christ, the martyrdom of Stephen and the many persecutions endured by Paul and the other believers at the hands of the Jews?

    “You are of your father, the Devil”. Now who was Jesus referring to there?

    Probably Muslims and Palestinians.

  189. So I take it you support Islamic suicide bombers along with 40% of Palestinians, Bones?

    At least there are 60% who disagree with you on that one.

    But, anyway, we’ll let John himslef answer you.

    1 John 2
    18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
    20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
    21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
    22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
    23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

    Rather simple actually. Only a real bigot or bonehead would deliberately contrive to misunderstand it for his own means.

  190. The criteria for being antichrist is clearly laid out before us:

    “He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.”

    So, let us apply the litmus test to Islam.

    Does Islam allow for Allah to have a son? No, they say, Allah has no son and it is blasphemy to say so.

    Therefore, their god cannot be a father because he cannot, they say, have a son. So their god is neither a father, nor does he have a son, therefore they deny the Father and the Son.

  191. By the way, Bones, I have never said that Jews cannot be antichrist. Of course it is true that some were, and still are, but antichrist spirits are not exclusive to them, which is what you are clearly saying.

    It is rather obvious that not all Jews deny the Father and the Son. Paul was Jewish. John was Jewish. James, Peter, Jude, Matthew, Mark. Luke was a Gentile.

    Cornelius’ household were the first Gentiles to receive Christ, and this was some ten years after Pentecost. Peter was amazed that the gospel was for the gentiles as well as the Jews.

    Yes, the Jews crucified Jesus. Yes they were persecuted by Jews. Yes, Paul was pursued by both Jews and Gentiles.

    But antichrist spirits are not exclusive to Jews.

    The warning is for all believers. Those spirits can come from any person who rejects Christ and denies the Father and the Son.

    That was where the discussion began on the other thread which you continue here.

    Not. Exclusive. To. Unbelieving Jews!

  192. I’m not interested in your warped hellfire theories, Bones.

    You are bending truth to prove that God is evil, Jesus a liar, and the Bible a fable.

    We already know this is what you believe.

  193. ““He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.””

    Judaism generally views Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history.[1] Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs.

    Islam at least views Jesus as a prophet.

    Luke 7:16

    16 They were all filled with awe and praised God. “A great prophet has appeared among us,” they said. “God has come to help his people.” 17 This news about Jesus spread throughout Judea and the surrounding country.

    Luke 24:17-19

    17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”

    They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”

    19 “What things?” he asked.

    “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people.

    John 4:19

    “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet.

    John 9:17

    Then they turned again to the blind man, “What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.” The man replied, “He is a prophet.”

    Matthew 21:10-11

    10 When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”

    11 The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”

    Hmmmmm

    Islam might be right. Jesus is a prophet.

    Judaism considers Jesus satanic. Nothing bigoted about that – it’s a theological fact.

    But we know who you’re lying with.

  194. But I notice that now that I have demolished all of your failed arguments on antichrist spirits you resort to a change of direction by slipping in an unrelated question, which is based on your own perverted interpretation of what others say, and dismiss the fact that you have been shown to be Biblically incorrect about antichrist spirits.

    You are so similar the JWs in your slippery sliding away from a given subject that you could almost be one of their apologists, and your doctrine is uncannily similar to theirs, too. They quote all the same ‘theologians’ in their watchtower publications, deny eternal damnation, deny the cross, deny Jesus as God, deny the gifts, the miracles, deny heaven, change the scripture to suit their theology, and change the subject every time you tear down their falsehoods with Scripture.

  195. So you don’t consider it horrific that Muslims are burning Christians alive?

    Oh the false indignation.

    It’s terrible that Muslims blow themselves and others up.

    But it’s ok to burn Christians alive.

    We don’t want to say anything against that do we?

    We don’t want to think that our idol of a god is worse than an extremist Muslim.

  196. Of course Jesus is a Prophet. The woman at the well knew that, but he showed her more. he opened her mind to the act that eh was the Messiah, the Christ.

    Saying Jesus is a prophet is not the criteria given by John.

    “He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.”

    Islam denies this. Judaism denies this.

    But many of the early Jews in Jerusalem believed. They accepted Jesus as the Messiah, the Son, and therefore made God the Father. This is what counts.

    All of Islam denies the Father and the Son. To accept God as Father and Jesus as Son would mean death or excommunication for a Muslim.

    It is clear to see that you don’t see what is right in front of you.

  197. Actually the JWs are closer to you – lover of lunatic and novel theories, sloppy scholarship and misinformation, a denier of science and evidence and making god in their own idolatrous image.

  198. No, Bones, you are making things u again, because you have an argument that God is evil who would allow people to enter the Lake of Fire with their god, satan.

    You do not believe in satan. You do not believe in the devil. You do not believe that God will judge anyone at the ed of time. You do not believe that the devil is the god of this world.

    Therefore you do not understand that those who follow the devil are the children of disobedience, who are blinded by their god, satan. He is not a real god. His adherents, wittingly or unwittingly, have elevated him to be their god by their rejection of Almighty God and of Christ.

    You do not believe that there is eternal separation for the children of disobedience if they continue to reject the Father and the Son.

    The only way to the father is through the Son. If they do not believe in the Son they do not believe in the Father.

    Those are the terms. To believe in the Son is to honour the Father. Reject the Son and you reject the Father.

    That is the only sin which is relevant to our times. it is the sin which keeps people out of God’s presence.

    You say that all are the children of God, but this is not the truth.

    Many are the children of disobedience, upon who remains the wrath of God. Only faith in the Son will remove the wrath. the grace o God covers us at this time, but there is a time when all who have died in their sins will be raised and stand before the Judgment Throne of God and be examined for their deeds. if their name is not found in the Lamb’s Book of Life, they will suffer the second death, which is to follow their father, the father of lies, murder and rebellion, into the Lake of Fire.

    But you do not believe in the Lake of Fire, because it is repulsive to your sensibility to believe that Go will reject anyone, when, in fact it is the other way around. they have rejected Him.

    They are not the children of God. They rejected the Son. They rejected the Father. They renounced becoming the children of God.

    Ephesians 2
    1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
    2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
    3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

    They remain the children of disobedience, and the children of wrath. Why are they called the children of wrath, Bones? Tell me!

    John 8
    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
    43 “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
    44 “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
    45 “But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

  199. Look out

    Christian Al Qaeda.

    I came to bring not peace but a sword – Jesus Christ

    For seven-year-old Shreema, 13th Jan 2002 was a special Sunday. All through the year, the girl had awaited the dawn of this day. For, that was the day one goes out and purchases new clothes, new toys and sweets, as the next day would be Makar Sankranthi — the harvest festival celebrated throughout India. The Singicherra Bazar was bustling with activity. Like Shreema’s family there were many people looking forward to a happy Makar Sankranthi. But they didn’t realise that they were violating a fatwa issued by the Baptist Church-created Christian Al-Qaeda, the National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT). Nor did they know that they would pay with their lives for celebrating a heathen festival of their motherland.

    Shreema would never again celebrate Makar Sankranthi. She died, along with sixteen others, on the spot as 13 terrorists of the NLFT encircled the people shopping for the festival and fired indiscriminately1. The soldiers of Christ have done again in Tripura what they have been doing for centuries to heathens throughout the world.

    The Baptist Church of Tripura is not just the ideological mentor of the NLFT; it also supplies the NLFT with arms and ammunition for the soldiers of the holy crusade2. Never mind that the holy war involves killing infants and torching the huts of ‘heathen Hindoos’. The NLFT does all these to bring to the infidels the peace and love of Christ. So, when Nagmanlal Halam, secretary of the Noapara Baptist Church in Tripura, was arrested by the Tripura police he had rather curious tools for evangelisation, which included along with the gospel 50 gelatin sticks, 5 kg of potassium and 2 kg of sulphur and other ingredients for making explosives. Mr. Halam confessed that his activities for the saving the heathen souls involved buying and supplying explosives to the NLFT over the past two years. Another church official, Jatna Koloi, who was also arrested, admitted that he received training in guerrilla warfare at an NLFT base last year. Surely, gelatin and AK-47s have more efficiency when it comes to bringing the light of the only revealed truth to the disbelievers suffering in ‘spiritual darkness’. Those who are in doubt can check it out with another great light-bearer of the other ‘only true book’, Osama bin Laden (that is, when and if the prophet of terror is captured).

    The Baptist Church of Tripura was initially set up by proselytizers from New Zealand 60 years ago. Despite their efforts, even until 1980, only a few thousand people in Tripura had converted to Christianity. Then the Church used one of its most efficient and time-tested weapons of evangelisation — creating racial and ethnic divide among the people. In the aftermath of one of the worst ethnic riots, engineered by the Church3, the NLFT was born — but not without the midwife role of the Baptist Church. From its very inception, the NLFT has been advancing the cause of Christianity through armed persuasion. Every trace of indigenous culture is being eliminated through violent means. Every resisting group is made to bleed its way to extinction.

    The case of Jamatya tribals provides a telling example. These tribals have strong spiritual leaders and a network of social service organisations headed by their religious leaders. These indigenous sects are neither exclusive nor expansionist. The Baptist Church has always failed miserably in its conversion efforts with regard to this well-knit community. Hence, it is no wonder that the NLFT has made Jamatya institutions and their religious leaders the targets of their attacks. In the August of 2000, religious leaders of the Jamatya community like Jaulushmoni Jamatya and Shanti Kumar Tripura were killed by the NLFT, and Jamatya families were uprooted from their homelands and made refugees. The death threats issued by the NLFT to the inmates of these institutions have already forced the closure of 11 Jamatya institutions like schools and orphanages, set up by the slain religious leaders in various parts of Tripura4. Interestingly, these tribals are not close-minded fanatics. For one thing, they do not mind teaching the theory of evolution in their schools.

    The greatest challenge to the Bible inspired mission of the NLFT comes from the Sangh Parivar’s Banbasi Kalyan Kendra. The dedicated life workers of RSS have started empowering the tribals by running many educational institutions which while empowering them through imparting secular technical education also retain their tribal cultural and spiritual identity. Rather than making them disown their roots, the Kendra made the tribals feel proud of their culture. It even conducts national level tribal sports festivals. If the NLFT is to carve out a kingdom for Christ out of the secular republic of India, it has to make sure that the Kendra activities are stopped at all costs. In July 2000, armed NLFT militants torched a residential school and students hostel run by the Seva Mission in the remote Ananda Bazar area of North Tripura5. They had also taken hostage four RSS life workers. These RSS workers were all in their sixties. The crime committed by these old men was that they had dared to run educational institutions for tribals while preserving the tribals’ culture. Later, all four were killed by the NLFT.

    The NLFT has been an active partner of the Baptist Church in winning converts to the Christian creed. They have killed tribal priests to threaten communities and effect mass conversions. But those tactics have obviously backfired. In 2001 alone, the NLFT killed more than 20 Hindus who refused to ‘accept the love of Christ’. They also torched to death a Hindu family sleeping in a hut6. In 2001, community chiefs and religious heads of 19 tribes formed the ‘Tribal Culture Protection Committee’ to counter the threat posed by the NLFT7. Despite the NLFT taking all possible steps to enforce conversions, the conversions are still slow. Frustrated, the NLFT has now begun an all out war against Hindu tribals. They have issued fatwas against infidel activities. These fatwas prohibit people from celebrating festivals like Durga Pooja and Makar Sankranthi, listening to Indian music, watching Indian TV channels and films, and prohibit women from wearing bangles or sporting bindis, etc. Just a year before the NLFT started all these atrocities in India, the Southern Baptist Church of the United States of America had given a clarion call to bring the light of the gospel to “millions of Hindus and Jews lost in the darkness” of their religions8.

    Shreema, the seven-year-old girl from Tripura, died with bullets pumped into her tender body. Her crime was that she violated the Christian fatwa which prohibited her from celebrating an Indian festival. She was not just a victim of barbaric terrorism but she is also a martyr for Indian culture, a culture that has preserved thousands of tribal customs from barbaric persecution. Yet, she will not make it to the glossy covers of the weekly magazines of English speaking Indian media. Unsubstantiated, fabricated stories of Hindu fundamentalists (an oxymoron) killing Christian priests have been making their headlines. However, these fabrications have their use. They do help in the covering up of such acts of Christian love like killing in cold blood a seven-year-old girl or burning a family to death.

    http://creative.sulekha.com/nlft-the-christian-al-qaeda_100438_blog

  200. No, not at all Bones, I am consistent in theology. I have stuck to the same doctrine throughout and not wavered from it, not meandered from subject to subject, as you commonly have, and not obscured one issue on scripture, as you consistently have. I have produced for more scripture on any given subject than anyone, and laid it out contextually.

    You, on the other hand, have jumped from one issue to another, gone quiet when I have taken your theology apart Biblically, and moved like a shapeshifter into some other subject unrelated to the discussion at hand.

    Just in this exchange you have changed the subject no fewer that four times. That is what led me to compare you to JWs.

    And, like you, they deny God’s judgment. Like you, they deny eternal separation. Like you, they deny heaven. Like you, they deny much of the canon as we know it, using a fraction of their own reconstructed translation for their own doctrine.

    They even quote people like John Stott, who veered away from a his previous understanding of eternal separation and torment in his latter years.

    The similarities are uncanny.

    I am a believer in science, by the way, but not in the theory of evolution as it stands, because it is not proven that there are leaps between species. Of course I believe in science. It came from God, Creator of heaven and Earth. Did you think men conceived of the processes of life because they study nature?

    You, once again, like JWs make up untruths about others to suit your own dogma.

  201. Make that five changes of subject in this exchange.

    You are evidently running out of puff, because you have resorted to insults and unrelated cut’n’paste entries.

    Now you are attacking what is supposedly your own side in a vain attempt at defence of the clearly recorded daily atrocities of the Islamic militants which you have continually defended without a single rejection of their vile aggression towards anyone who rejects their religion, or speaks out against either their Mohammad or their imams who promote the violence against Israel, Christians, objectors, gays or women.

    You have to wonder how low you will sink to defend militant Islam.

    by the way, that is the actual subject of this thread, which is why I added the comments earlier. You were so incensed that someone would produce evidence of atrocities by Islamic militants that you immediately attacked Jews.

    Unbelievable!

    The fact is that in places like Syria, Bahrein and Bangladesh, as we discuss these issues, Muslim Shia is fighting Muslim Sunni in bloody battles for control, whilst Syria is attempting to arm Hezbollah in Lebanon in a failed attempt to nullify Israel and Iran presses towards nuclear armament in the volatile Middle East with threat hanging over Israel of destruction.

    I don’t like all of Israel’s policies or politics, but I support their right to peace and security, even though the Bible says it won’t happen until Jesus comes.

    Looks like an end times scenario to me.

  202. They even quote people like John Stott, who veered away from a his previous understanding of eternal separation and torment in his latter years.

    John Stott saw the truth and plain evil of the doctrine of hell. As well as the fact it is heretical in that the Jesus of Revelation is not the Jesus of the gospels.

    The seer John never encountered Jesus.

    Ever.

    But like the JWs you build your doctrine on a highly metaphorical book in the belief you have the key.

    Like JWs you don’t seriously study scripture instead relying on your own intuition and kooky endtime theories.

    Like JWs you feed yourself with rubbish like Hislop.

    Like JWs you reject evolution.

    Like JWs you detest Catholics and other religions.

    Like JWs you see pagan conspiracies everywhere in Christianity.

    Like JWs you detest secular society.

    Like JWs your Jesus will destroy His own creation.

    Like JWs you can’t stand criticism of your cult or cultic leader.

    The similarities are uncanny.

  203. You have to wonder how low you will sink to defend militant Islam.

    Show me where I’ve done that?

    You hardly have the balls to defend your god who died to save us from itself.

    You can’t see that your god is worse than a Nazi camp guard pouring Zyklon B on unsuspecting prisoners below.

    Actually you can justify it.

  204. Well, what a heap of convoluted conjecture. And nothing of any substance.

    Your problem is that you don’t believe the Bible, or anything that is Christian, nor do you like Christians.

    You take every opportunity to put down Christians at the expense of just about any other belief system, especially Islam.

    Your default position, as demonstrated on tis exchange, when Islam is exposed in some quarters as explosive and volatile, is to attack Israel, or Jews, or put up an example of some Christian wrong-doing, which, I might add, are, in the modern context, very much more difficult to find than Islamic militancy, which is in the news on a daily basis, despite your protestations.

    Your irrelevant, inaccurate and unconnected accusations on what I actually believe I am mostly ignoring because they are so stupid.

  205. The articles I put up were in today’s news, by the way. it is happening as we write. That is my point.

  206. Bones,
    You hardly have the balls to defend your god who died to save us from itself.

    That is your own ironic, personal blasphemy, and nothing like anything I have said, ever.

    I ignore it mostly because I do not want to feed you with any more opportunity to either prove yourself a heretic or deny God.

  207. Why did I use the terms blasphemy and heresy?

    Bones’ rendition of the work of Jesus on the cross: ‘the god who died to save us from itself’.

    Before I comment further, I should give the blasphemer time to recant of this abysmal slur on the Saviour and our Father.

  208. But as to the rest of the pap Bones devises, I can demolish this whilst we wait for his recantation of the blasphemy of his own construction.

    But like the JWs you build your doctrine on a highly metaphorical book in the belief you have the key.

    Lie! I use the whole canon of scripture, especially referencing the New testament. The Revelation is that of Christ. You deny this because it completely wrecks your universal claims. But even without Revelation, much of what we say is consistent throughout scripture, which is the essence of good doctrine – more than one witness.

    Like JWs you don’t seriously study scripture instead relying on your own intuition and kooky endtime theories.

    Lie! In fact I study scripture daily and take it very seriously, which is why I am able to destroy your dismally blasphemous attempts at reconstructing doctrine.

    You, on the other hand, rely on cut’n’paste extravaganza, much of which contradicts your own point because you don’t actually take the time to rad through what you paste.

    I’d even go as far as to say that JWs spend eons more time in the Bible and believe it much more than you do, it’s just that they have altered their translation so much from the original that they send themselves off into the same error you do because you consider so much of scripture to be either myth or allegory.

    Like JWs you feed yourself with rubbish like Hislop.

    Lie! I mainly study the Bible itself, but use a number of different references, concordances, commentaries and lexicons in study, and it’s probably ten years since I last looked at Hislop, which is very interesting and worth reading for his understanding of ancient pagan and ritualistic belief systems, but is certainly not my main or preferred reference.

    Expressly, to prove this to you, I wrote all five of the Catholic dogma pieces without single reference to Hislop, and using only their own doctrine, from their Catechism, and from the Vatican papers.

    Like JWs you reject evolution.

    I do reject the theory of evolution, but any comparison to JWs is coincidental. I reject it because it is not proven that there are leaps between species. You cannot demonstrate it, because it has never been scientifically proven, and never will be because it doesn’t exist in the fossil record. It remains conjecture. Why should anyone accept conjecture?

    You, on the other hand, deny the creation, and therefore the Creator. You, accepting you are descended from apes, deny the existence of Adam, and therefore the original sin, and therefore the need for the new Adam to right the fall.

    Like JWs you detest Catholics and other religions.

    Lie! I do not detest anyone. I argue against the false dogma of Roman Catholic error. That is all.

    And it is what I am supposed to do as a believer. I am supposed to study the scripture and compare it to doctrine to see that it complies with the canon. Doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, worship of saints, Mary as mediatrix, the immaculate conception of Mary, the Ascension of Mary, the sinless nature of Mary, Mary as mother of God, canonisation of saints, and other doctrines are patently false and should be exposed.

    That you support and argue for them all is testament to your own failed theology.

    How can a Roman Catholic be helped out of their error if no one is prepared to point it out. That is not detesting Catholics, but caring for them. You would rather see them continue in error.

    Like JWs you see pagan conspiracies everywhere in Christianity.

    Lie! I am not a conspiracy theorist. I seek truth and expose error where it is evident. That is what I am supposed to do. I mostly apply scripture as the testing point.

    Paganism is where I came out from when I was saved. I know what it is and what it says. Where I see it I expose it when I write things here, but I do not spend my time on it. It is far more useful to tell the truth and preach the gospel and let the Holy Spirit convince people of sin, righteousness and judgment than to expose error when preaching.

    On this forum I discuss issues, including error and truth, which is what blogging is all about. But the gospel is powerful enough in itself when it is preached accurately.

    Like JWs you detest secular society.

    Lie! And what a stupid thing to say. I actually believe secularism has carved a way into some religious societies in such a way that it provides avenues for the gospel, especially in some Islamic and Hindu nations, and I have written about it and taught it!

    You have such a warped opinion of other people that you make up things about them and actually believe your own press! What a wally!

    Like JWs your Jesus will destroy His own creation.

    Lie! And if you think the JWs believe this, you truly don’t know what you are talking about. You live in a make-believe world where everyone is against you and you think you’re the only sensible, rational person on the planet, even to the extent of thinking God is wrong and Jesus told lies!

    JWs are annihilationists. They say really bad people will simply be vaporised and there will be no Lake of Fire experience, just like you, only you’re a universalist.

    I believe what Jesus said. You don’t. I beleiev what the Scripture says. You don’t.

    Like the JWs you have to leave out huge passages, even whole books, of scripture, and that out of context with the whole canon, to come to your universalist position, because if you used all of Scripture in context you would know that you are in complete error.

    Like JWs you can’t stand criticism of your cult or cultic leader.

    Lie! I am neither a part of a cult, nor a follower of a cult leader. I am a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who is my Lord, Saviour and King.

    I will not waste my time on certain people who seek only to put down the local church they have decided I am part of for their own self gratification and anonymous egotistical braggadocio.

    I have often and at length stated my position over the course of some four or five years on these blogs, often in regard to the movement I am part of, but attempted to reiterate that I speak from my own perspective and not that of any other member.

    That you know to be true, and I resent the implication that I am unable to rationally discuss issues even within my own stream with people who’s motives are honourable and who treat what I say fairly, especially in view of the fact that I have entered such hostile environments and spoken earnestly and honestly for so long, including with you, someone who spares no quarter.

  209. “Your irrelevant, inaccurate and unconnected accusations…”

    Sorry but that’s you and your god.

    Sadly irrelevant, inaccurate and unconnected.

    A theological fruitcake. Where Jesus dies to satisfy the wrath of an angry God.

    You just can’t scare people into hell anymore.

    That went out with the boogeyman.

  210. “Bones’ rendition of the work of Jesus on the cross: ‘the god who died to save us from itself’.”

    That’s what you believe.

    Or is Jesus not God?

    I mean who did Jesus pay a ransom to?

  211. You don’t realise how your strawman ad hominem attacks turn round to bite you on the arse. You think your clever comparisons make some sort of a point when they can be clearly used on you.

    Of course JWs don’t think they’re part of a cult either. Neither do they study apart from what their leadership tells them. Based of course on their own interpretation eg Revelation. They would never study modern scholarship as that would show how nutty and imbecilic their beliefs were.

    Sounds familiar>

    Neither do they entertain any criticism of their cultic heads and organisation. That provokes immediate censorship.

    Sounds familiar?

    Like JWs you see Christianity paganised. This is evident in your own articles where you disgustingly use the same arguments JWs use to slander Christianity. An appalling lack of honest scholarship for which there is no excuse in these days of the internet where facts can be checked. Anything of course to feed your own ignorance.

    “I believe what Jesus said. You don’t. I beleiev what the Scripture says. You don’t.”

    The classic cultic response. God is on my side.

    Good for you. You not only more in common with JWs but Al Qaeda as well.

  212. Where have I defended militant Islam again?

    Another classic strawman.

    It’s a wonder you can lie straight in bed.

  213. The dhimmi holds on to his blasphemy!

    Your silence on militant Islam reveals your approval. Your only response to the articles above was an attack on Jews.

    So, remind us. What did you call Genesis and Revelation again? Myth and apocalyptic nonsense? Are they part of the canon or not? Do you believe they are scripture or not?

  214. Again, I don’t belong to a cult. I belong to the Body of Christ, the Church of the Living God. The local church I attend is part of the Church, but not the whole Body. I am of Christ.

    You don’t even believe what your own local church teaches. You hammer them on these threads. Tell me. Does your church teach universalism? I doubt it very much. But you bang away at just about everything they probably teach on creation, the cross, the blood of Jesus as remission for sin, Adam’s fall, the need to receive Jesus as Lord, the preaching of the gospel, the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the work of the adversary, called satan and the devil, the judgment seat of Almighty God, the resurrection of the saints, the wages if sin, the gifts of the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit, salvation by grace, through faith, and not of works.

    No. Instead you sit in there in their midst with your belief in universalism, evolution theory, no heaven, no Gehenna, no hades, no devil, no satan, pushing salvation by works, salvation through faith in other gods, no judgment seat of God, promoting the five dogmas of Mary, transubstantiation, purgatory, idolatry of dead saints, Genesis as a myth, Revelation as an allegorical apocalyptic fable written by a man who never met Jesus, good works being an indication of the fruit of the Spirit even in people who deny Christ.

    The reason the JWs come knocking on your door, or standing on the street corner selling Watchtowers and spouting heresy is to work their way, not into heaven, because they are told they cannot achieve this, but to inherit the earth.

    By your reckoning, they will, indeed, achieve their aims, because, despite their gross and many errors, and the thousands they have led away from Christ, you believe, by your doctrine, they will be saved anyway.

    That, Bones, is cultism.

  215. See the cultist who claims they and they alone have the truth which contradicts reason, science, theology.

    See how he rains down threats of blasphemy and hellfire on those who disagree with him.

    See how he has made god in his image. His god is like him.

    Not like Jesus at all.

  216. It’s a terrible thing for Steve’s god to be in error. You need to have that perfect understanding of his god or you will burn for eternity.

    My kids can’t understand how Jesus can be a man and God.

    Hope they don’t die cos Steve’s God will burn them alive. Like the Muslims were doing to Christians.

  217. Bones (going on and on and on),
    See the cultist who claims they and they alone have the truth which contradicts reason, science, theology.

    Must be talking about someone else, because I have never said this. See how you make things up about people and are completely unable to back it up with any fact, truth or substance.

    You need to have that perfect understanding of his god or you will burn for eternity.

    I mean, are you serious?

    Perfect understanding? The only Pharisee who might claim this is Zorro. He would probably state this.

    I have said that salvation is by grace (so from God) through faith (so from the Word of God), and not by works, so all a person has to do is hear the gospel preached, believe and confess Jesus as Lord.

    So, once again, you are caught out lying about what other people say and believe to falsely ‘prove’ things you make up about them in your own mind in a vain attempt to win an argument by bullying people with your aggression and spite.

    If you understood anything about scripture you’d know your kids, depending on their age, are covered by your own faith, or, if you do not believe, by your wife’s faith. If they are younger than the age of reason and response they are innocent and covered by God’s grace.

    But you’re so angry with God you use your own children as a weapon to attack sound doctrine.

    Who said anything about understanding doctrine? Not I. That would be salvation by works, Bones, which is what you teach.

    I have said, many times, salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    It’s fascinating to watch how you make things up about people and snare yourself on our own words time after time.

    Your anger is with God because God’s Word doesn’t fit with your own demand on the criteria for salvation.

  218. Bones’ blasphemy,
    ‘the god who died to save us from itself’

    This is Bones’ rendition of the work of the cross, where Jesus died to save us from our own sin. As Jesus said, “this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

    Christians from the very beginning have been persecuted for preaching the cross. Some have been martyred for their faith. As Paul says, ‘the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the world’, yet it is the power of God unto salvation for those who believe.

    But Bones calls God ‘it’. A blasphemy in itself. And he adds that God died to save us from ‘itself’, which is heresy. He did not die to save us from Himself, but from our own sin, and from the wages of sin which is death.

    “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    How are we released form the wags of sin? Through faith in Jesus Christ.

    “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

    Here Jesus mentions judgment. Those who believe shall not come to judgment. The implication is that those who do not believe will come to judgment. Jesus confirms this.

    “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

    How are they condemned? By their own unbelief, because they preferred darkness to light.

    “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

    So the blood of Jesus is shed for the remission of sin, so that those who believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life, but they cannot believe unless they hear the Word of Faith which we preach, according to Paul.

    “For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

    They have not all obeyed the gospel. Faith comes by hearing the gospel preached, by hearing the Word of God.

    Christ died once and for all, but not all will believe, and not all will be saved. Saved from what? The wages of their own sin.

    What Bones preaches is blasphemy and another gospel. It is anathema.

  219. And what censorship have I ever applied to you, Bones? That is such a putrid accusation. The only thing it fits is the voices in your head.

    Here I am on a hostile site, having been banned so many times by Lance White, Heretic, RP, Specksandplanks, MN and had to fight to get back in on the basis that banning people is futile and infantile, and you tag ‘censorship’ on me???

    I have stood toe to toe with you, and given back as good as you lash out without backing down, having put up with your contrary, agnostic antagonism towards me because I am an evangelical who attends a church you find repulsive for months and you say I censor you????

    I’ve put up with your slurs against my church and pastors for months, and you call me censorial????

    I’ve said not one thing against your church or your pastor in all the time I’ve commented here, the closest thing being to point out that you are in complete opposition to them in your writings here, which you have not refuted, even though, because I don’t and wouldn’t and can’t censor you, even if I wanted to, you have had every opportunity to refute, but you won’t because I am right about it. You don’t even agree with what your own local church teaches. You censor them with your comments here.

    See how he rains down threats of blasphemy and hellfire on those who disagree with him.

    What are you, a child? How can anyone ‘rain down threats of blasphemy’? Do you even know what it is. You are blaspheming God when you call Him an ‘it’ and called Him wicked for judging sin. I can’t ‘rain down blasphemy’ on you. I pointed out the blasphemy in your doctrine.

    My motive is to stir you into revising what you say, because it doesn’t match scripture.

    And that does count when it comes to growing up as a Christian.

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