Fakers, Scammers and Bullshit Artists

Fake healing is rife within Christianity around the world.  A lot of it is centred around African Countries, with this story being a common example.  Pastor Sign Fireman (I have no idea where these folk pick up their names – but by crikey they’re good for a laugh – probably a lot like westerners getting Chinese symbols tattood on themselves which they think mean something far different to their actual meaning…but I digress), is a pastor in Nigeria who last year posted a video on Youtube of a supposed healing miracle of a ‘Nollywood’ (the Nigerian versoin of Bollywood) actor Enebeli Enebuwa.  However Enebeli very soon came out telling people not to believe the video, that it was a fake and that his health had in fact worsened after his visit to the church. Enebeli in fact died later that year.

Enebeli Elebuwa on his sick bed in hospital in India where he passed away

Pastor Fireman (snigger snigger) came back with the old ‘Well he obviously hadn’t allowed himself to work into his healing’, supposedly there had been conditions placed upon the healing that Enebeli Enebuwa had not adhered to.  One of the ‘conditions’ was that he stop being involved with the ‘white dress church’ the Catholic Church.From memory Jesus had lots of strings attached to the healings he delivered as well…hang on, NO he didn’t!

He didn’t even care if people believed in him as saviour or Lord, or Messiah – his only concern was for them and their condition and the fact that they had the faith to come to him in the first place – A Roman military leader (Pagan) a Psyrophonaecian Woman (Not Jewish and not a follower of Jesus her culture was one of worshiping idols) – Jesus seems to care only that people come to him…no conditions applied to their healing – just healed and that’s the end of it.

Calling fake on most so called ‘healings’ of this day and age is not a problem for me.

Fakery and Bullshittery is rife here in Australia as well. I am yet to see any evidence of verifiable healing of anyone – yetI have seen plenty of fakery.  I was present when a group of pentecostal bible students prayed for a drug addict on the streets of Kings Cross, who had taken an overdose of heroin.  The Ambulance arrived adn administered Narcane – and the young man revived.  fast forward a few weeks to thier organisatons fundraising newsletter and all of the praise goes to the stidents adn their prayer which had ‘raised the drug addict from the dead’ – not a mention of the Narcane or ambulance – just prayer and raising from the dead .  Bullshit.  Fakery.  Scammers.

THIS story tells of the hundereds of people paying hundreds of dollars to learn how to heal and raise the dead.

Hundreds of people across southeast Queensland flock to the courses every week, paying up to $720 to learn “faith healing” practices that allegedly trigger miraculous recoveries from broken bones, infertility and even cancer.

The Holyfire Ministry Training School at Park Ridge, which offers a subject called Healing the Sick & Raising the Dead, recommends taking children on “treasure hunts” public outings to practise healing on strangers. “Children are great to have on Treasure Hunts. They are less threatening,” its material states.

THIS is the treasure map and instructions.

We all know Bill Johnson is a liar and a faker – diamonds, angel feathers and gold dust apparently fall from the ceiling of his church quite regularly!  But did you know he is also a scammer?  He charges churches $7000 to use his ‘curriculum’…and that’s just the first year curriculum.  The 2nd year is a similar amount!  No wonder you have to pay huge amounts to attend the course to learn how to ‘raise’ the dead!The following is directly from the Bethel website:

The 1st Year BSSM DVD Curriculum focuses on developing a culture of revival and a lifestyle of the supernatural through teaching on our identity in Christ, how to walk in signs & wonders, and Bible study. There is also a strong emphasis on healing, developing a prophetic culture, and demonstrating the gospel with power. These foundational messages are a core component in the culture of revival at Bethel; they are combined with worship, activation (outreach), revival/small group discipleship, and mission trips to activate the students in the supernatural. Our goal is to see His Kingdom come, here on earth as in Heaven.

The 2nd Year BSSM DVD Curriculum focuses on taking the foundational first year elements to a new level with training in practical leadership principles, apostolic governmental structures, more in-depth Bible study and deeper activation of the gifts of the Spirit. There is also a strong emphasis on learning to lead people and to steward and pass on our spiritual inheritance to the next generation—for a revival that never ends! These core messages are combined with worship, activation (outreach), revival/small group discipleship, and mission trips to give the students practical experience in leadership and in living a supernatural lifestyle. Our goal is to establish God’s Kingdom in every realm of society.

Talk about selling the gospel!  I’m cetain that this is what Jesus meant us to do…NOT.  These excesses and huge prices for bullshit seem to be the domain of the so called Word of Faith and Pentecostal denominations.

In contrast lets look at what it takes to put on an Alpha course;  70 dollars for the manual and DVD’s.  $8 for a prayer ministry training manual.  $35 for an Alpha leaders training DVD. And this is a program that actually leads people into relatoinship with Christ – costs them nothing to participate in and they get fed for free as well.  Where does it come from?  A traditional church – an Anglican church – where of course the Spirit of God left a long time ago huh?

$7000 or $70?  I know which I’d believe is from God and which is not…and it’s not the $7000 one!

188 thoughts on “Fakers, Scammers and Bullshit Artists

  1. 12. Except this that I do, I also do so as to strike down the excuse of those who are [looking for] excuses, so as that which they pride themselves with, they find among us.
    13. For they become those false apostles and slaves of treachery, and they try to impersonate the apostles of Christ.
    14. And it is no wonder. For if Satan looks like the angel of fire (light),
    15. It is not so unutterable if his ministers also look like the servants of righteousness, whose judgment will be according to their works.

    The sad part about fakes is that their lies may help to fuel the denial of the Truth. My own son is a bona fide medical miracle, and I have experienced real miracles, but not in a church – too much unbelief for faith to operate usually.

    But as to the Alpha course, the real “cost” is in the leavening, and the fact that it has been adopted as an evangelizing tool more by the Romans than anyone. The Alpha course is commonly consummated in the Kundalini experience which is a counterfeit of the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

    There is that Indo-Aryan religion again.

    The ecumenical move will come out of Rome and Canterbury and evolve a World Church which will go with the World Congress and World Commerce (all WC’s!).

    Ever noticed how God talks to us on the dunny? Or conversely in the shower or bath? Ever wondered why?

    And Greg, neither are from God, but then they are sent from His presence, for He sends strong delusion from before the throne. Plenty of delusion to be found in what are commonly called churches though. Especially in the Pull-pits.

  2. 7000 or 70?

    Depends on what the suckers can afford or will spend – and let’s face it, their are few bigger tightwads than Anglicans and Catholics.

    I will stick with my denarius…and my pearl of great price…

  3. I disagree with you Ian.

    I think ‘if’ God heals today (and I’d take some convincing) it is not at the hands of pastors and people – but only in response to the prayers of a supplicant directly to God and for themselves or

  4. Why? Did God suddenly lose the power to heal? Is He breaking His Promises to us? Has the Holy Spirit lost His gifts and manifestations?

    Holy Trinity Brompton is indeed Anglican. It is also charismatic. They believe in the gifts and fruit of the Spirit being manifest amongst us today. It is a wonderful local church doing a fabulous job in the heart of London, and has taken its mandate across the planet.

    It may interest you to know that they were heavily involved in the revival meetings at Pensecola in the nineties, and their present growth came out of the connection, including the Alpha Course initiative.

    There are excesses in every successful movement in amongst the successes and the good things which are in the larger portion of the work. The Azusa Street revivals were powerful, but attracted a very small number of whacky people, too, who gave it a bad name in some quarters, but there are always those who look for fault in every growing project.

    If we only point out, as Lance does, and Jake, too, those things which are controversial or wrong without giving a balanced account of those things which are right, proper and Biblical, we are showing that we are well able to assess the human element in every enterprise, but oblivious to the God content.

    God still heals today. I have seen it. I have ministered it under His leadership. His Spirit is alive and His Word works today just as it did when Jesus walked the earth. He is the same Word. He is the same Spirit. He is the same Healer, Deliverer and Saviour.

    If the is anything missing, it is our ability to believe Him and His Word and simply step out and taste and see that God is good.

  5. By the way, Jesus did, on occasion, attach conditions to healing and deliverance. Maybe you could research the Gospels and find them for yourself. It would help you and your faith.

  6. Finally, the gospel is free. Jesus said, “freely you have received, freely give”, and he was talking about healing deliverance and ministering repentance.

    The only things you really need are:

    Faith in God
    The Promise of the Spirit
    The Word of God
    A willing heart
    Beautiful feet

    And these are all given as part of the kit when you receive Jesus as Lord.

    Jesus’ Ministry School consisted of showing his disciples what to do then sending them out to do it.

    There are plenty of sick people in the world. Simply trust God and pray for them.

    Have fun!

  7. I think you’d better qualify that last remark, because I don’t like the implication at all.

  8. You see, Bones, no matter what I write, put up on is or any other blog you’re involved with, you’re going to come in with some ugly accusative abuse which has nothing whatsoever to do with anything except you have a nasty streak.

    If I put up an article about Islamic terror which happened that day, you come back with an attack on Jews.

    If I say Jesus still heals today, you come back with some remark insinuating child abuse.

    You’re no different to the very hideously religious bigot Zorro, really, riding shotgun over the blogosphere waiting for someone to pounce on who says something he doesn’t agree with in his limited theological reformed prison cell of a mind. The difference is that he’s a conservative, right wing Pharisee, and you’re a liberal, left wind Sadducee (they didn’t understand the resurrection, either).

    When I come back at you in kind, you merely up the stakes, just as he does.

  9. “Finally, the gospel is free.”

    Really? That fact seems to have entirely escaped the notice of Phil Pringle, who continues to claim that those who fail to tithe are “cursed”.

    Do you suppose that “Dr” Pringle hasn’t read the particular parts of the Bible where the very words of Jesus himself clearly contradict the tithing heresy? Or maybe Phil has read those words, but he is too enamoured of the riches that being a professional “Christian” have brought, and so turns a blind eye to God’s plain truth.

    Do you think that Phil can somehow escape the judgement to come?

  10. Right on cue, it’s Hugh!

    The subject is healing. What I said is true.

    We had the tithing debate some time ago.

    Bought out any struggling companies recently?

  11. The gospel is free. I don’t have an issue with Bible Colleges having fees if they are providing Government recognised courses, or training people for ministry, because, obviously, there are overheads, and trainers are, even Biblically, worthy of their hire, but the actual gospel is free.

    Therefore we do not ask people to pay for healing or deliverance. After all, it is not the person administering healing who does anything but make themselves available. It is God who heals.

  12. I hope that $7000 course comes with a money back guarantee if you don’t get gold dust.

    And yeah Bill Johnson is worthy of $7000 a DVD set.

    Of course for $7000 you could give 280 people their sight through the Fred Hollows Foundation.

    But yeah money would be better spent on learning leg lengthening tricks to impress little kiddies like Steve.

    And not one person will be healed.

  13. “By the way, Jesus did, on occasion, attach conditions to healing and deliverance. ”

    Interesting that. Jesus spits into dirt and makes mud to heal the blind man.

    Why didn’t Jesus just heal the man like He did everyone else.

    What did the gospel writers have in mind in this account? And what of the conditional healing of the man born blind? Would he not be healed if he didn’t wash off in the pool of Siloam?

    There’s clearly something else at play here. Maybe some understanding we’ve lost. Some Christians see the clay and the spit as metaphors.

    Another interpretation is that in the ancient world, when a temple was constructed and then dedicated to the god or goddess which the temple was to house, the idol of the god/goddess was ritually ‘brought to life’. Part of this process was to ritually ‘open’ the eyes, ears, mouth, etc. of the god/goddess. The eyes were thus ‘opened’ by the priest mixing spittle with clay and then smearing it across the idol’s eyes — presumably to make them ‘glisten’ as real eyes do.

    Genesis tells us that we’re created in God’s image at the same time that it depicts God as speaking creation into being, seeing that his creation is good, sculpting the man out of clay with his hands, hearing the voice of the man, walking in the garden during the cool of the day, and even that he smelled the soothing aroma of Noah’s sacrifice, and so forth. (All this is even given in roughly the same order as it’s presented in Psalms 115 and 135.)

    When we couple this with the Gospels’ testimony that, although we can be sure that people suffered from other physical ailments in ancient Palestine, and we know that Jesus healed all types of illness, we’re specifically told that he healed the blind, the deaf, the leprous, and the lame. Moreover, the language used is that Jesus ‘opened’ such eyes and ears, etc. Put another way, Jesus was redeeming the image of God within humanity.

  14. For $7000 you could do a Hillsong Leadership course.

    Then you have to give offerings :

    The College plays an integral part in Nation Builders giving and we take a weekly offering towards these programs. As College students, be prepared to sow not only into the outreach endeavours of Hillsong Church, but into the very heartbeat of God – “that none should perish.”

    – page 20

    Provide tea, coffee and teaching supplies to the trainers (how much is a whiteboard these days?)

    Students will be appointed to be responsible for looking after trainers. This involves providing for the needs of trainers and may include refreshments (tea & coffee, available from the student cafe) and teaching supplies (whiteboards, markers, overhead projectors, etc)

    – page 25

    You have to serve in two weekend Hillsong church services, and most of the incidental labour for the college is provided by the students.

  15. That’s nothing. We used to ‘ave to lick t’road w’it tongue…

    Sorts out the die-hards from the try-hards.

    It’s amazing how God helps those who step out in faith to stay the course when they enter Bible School, but if you let money be the first obstacle you stumble over, you have no chance of completing the course.

    It was logically and financially impossible for my wife and I to even contemplate Bible School, but we ended up paying both our fees a month before the end of the course, and put our children through Christian School whilst doing a part time charity job.

    If you let money dominate your thinking when you enter ministry, you’ll fail every time. Bible School sets the goals for completing life’s course.

    Only faith people need apply.

  16. I wish the Bible schools could live similarly by faith for their financial needs. But Hillsong seems to have very little faith that God will provide, and relies on the students to provide everything – including tea and coffee and teaching supplies. They get them to drive the bus, and still ask for donations in addition to that.

    But they do provide some helpful advice about getting a fee-free account from the bank, and not using other banks ATMs to avoid the $2 fee. We wouldnt want the students to be ripped off.

  17. So you want the teaching staff to live by faith for their salaries too, I suppose! And the hire of premises! And the water and electricity, etc, etc..

    The basic undergraduate fee at, say, Macquarie is around $22,000 pa. A chiropractic course will set you back $26,000 pa. At Deakin a Behavioural Science course will cost you $21,000 if you have to pay the whole thing without subsidies from the Government. An Education degree will cost you upwards of $15,500.

    But I’ll guarantee that those people who train students are not living by faith. They are on a pretty healthy salary, which is paid for by… you guessed it… fees! Oh, and a healthy contribution from the Government, although it seems they will be removing some $2.5 billion in the near future from higher education. One suspects there will be fee hikes!

    Those teachers in the public school system who are on upwards of $75,000 pa are subsidised by your taxes and you don’t complain. In fact, the teachers would like more.

    Interestingly, the much maligned (by this crowd) E. W. Kenyon, when he ran his Bible School, did so completely by faith. The students had to believe God for everything. I guess you’d call this a good example.

    Why would it be an onerous thing to get students to engage in ministry within the church as apart of the learning process? Isn’t that one of the reasons they went to Bible College? To serve?

  18. Incidentally, last year I was teaching in a College in UK which had adult and apprentice age students, most of whom were subsidised by Government, and the fact that they did not have to pay a thing for their education actually worked against them, the College, and the system, because, as with most commitments which have no cost, and, therefore, no value to participants, the moment students found the going the slightest bit inconvenient, or, in their minds, tough, they would drop out, often for the most banal of reasons.

    They even complained about not being given this or that freeby, having to pay for their own text books, pens, paper, printing, and a host of other things, when the EU and UK Government had invested literally billions to get them off benefits and into jobs by providing them with a free education which was linked to work experience and giving them a start.

    Entitlement syndrome sets in wherever people are given things they do not have to sweat for, work for, or make an effort for.

    Paying for your course is a sure way to see it through to completion.

    I have seen how, when you provide free long term training, even for Christian workers, the drop-out rate is high, but where a reasonable fee is charged, a greater degree of commitment is made, more stick to the course, and more complete the course, and the higher the value placed on the course, the more likely it is that participants both enjoy the course and complete the course.

    Place no value on a course, and the students will not value it.

  19. I have no problems paying for a course – I’m paying off $14,000 for a diploma course as we speak, but I can guarantee I wouldn’t spend $7000 on a set of DVD’s and manuals which cost less than $20.00 to mass produce!

    When I have finished my training I will avhe a government recognised Diploma – What will Bill Johnsons DVD’s get you?

    I agree if you go to bible college you should expect ministry experience in a church location – its how all ministry traiing occurs. When I was a college we spent each week giving 12 hours to a local parish as part of our training. I was never expected to make donatoins toward the church…in fact – there were donations made by the parish to help me with the purchase of books and travel expenses!

    Hillsong treat their students (if the stories are true) like slave labour.

    the Bethel DVD’s series is not value for money at all – it is deceptive and I think falls foul of advertising laws here in Australia and the UK.

  20. Greg, I found out about divine healing in my living room in Brisbane in 1981 when the Shekinnah of God manifested and I was suddenly and miraculously healed of heroin addiction – and if you make fun of that you do so at your own peril, not mine.

    I totally agree that most real God healings, miracles etc happen not as the result of Benny Hinn type hype, but rather through intimate relationship with God and the heart crying out to God from the hell of ill-health or addiction. James says to call for the elders to pray for the sick – those mature in faith.

    I also believe that God gives us Doctors and those who can help us when we are in need of help – my life was once saved by a God filled Doctor when I asked for help as I was sure that I was dying. I had developed MRSA after an op for a burst appendix.

    I asked God to send me a doctor who knew what he was doing – it is all about where you faith is at and your expectation. God uses Doctors, Dentists and miracles. When I needed deliverance for heroin, I had not other alternative – I had tried Doctors (methadone) and that did not help. I knew in my heart of hearts that only God could deal with this.

    Another time I went away on a retreat to fast and pray during which I got a flea bite which became infected and abscessed. I asked God about the matter and He said you can believe me to heal it or you can go to the Hospital and get some Penicillin, what can you believe for? I chose the doctor as i did not feel that I had the faith and an abscess can soon become a lost limb and my father had lost a leg to gangrene….

    When I got to the Hospital, the Doctor dug a chunk of flesh out of my leg and then said that he would give me some Tetracycline, then paused and said, “No, on second thoughts I think Penicillin would be better”. God just letting me know who is in control.

    Personally I think Bethel and the Johnson’s and much of that is so much shite, but then Paul said to count it all dung. These days I have a quick look at the creed to see if they really have the Spirit or just another religious cult based on heaven and hell.

    If they are preaching hell, then to me they are merely hell’s preachers, at least that is what the Holy Spirit told me when He said “If you preach Hell, then are you not Hell’s preachers?”

    You know, like Jesus told the Pharisees, “you make your proselytes twice the child of Gehenna a you are”.

  21. I think your criticism of Bill Johnson’s fees may be tainted by misinformation. Is that $7000 fee applicable to each student, or to a hosting church? If the latter, then, depending on numbers, the fee would be spread amongst participants.

  22. Bill, that’s like an invoice? You can be cheap and pay someone else or you can pay the greatest price and give up all your pearls for His Pearl of Great Price, for you need not that any man should teach you, for the anointing within shall teach you all things and lead you into all Truth, wherein is the freedom of the Spirit. If a teacher is not leading you to Jesus, he is leading you up the primrose path.

    I watched Bayless Conley last night for the first time in a long time – he was preaching one of those fleece the sheeples messages – I was a bit disappointed – I thought that he was above that sort of manipulation. I then flicked over to Joel Osteen, and while his message was very “good” it was also a slick presentation pandering to the punters.

    Why would you pay for this when you have a well and a storehouse and the treasures of heaven to call upon? Because people draw to themselves teachers after their own hearts, for they like it this way, so to them it is apostasy upon apostasy, and vomit upon vomit, here a little, there a little, so that they may be snared.

    7. They also went astray because of wine
    and went astray because of liquor;
    the high priest and the prophet went astray because of liquor.
    They imbibed the liquor.
    They were shaken because of the liquor.
    They went astray because of drunkenness.
    They ate extravagantly.
    8. Because all the altars became full of the apostasy and vomit of the natives (inhabitants of the land).
    9. To whom shall be taught the knowledge?
    And to whom shall be the schooling, that which is heard?
    To those who are weaned from milk and freed from the bread?
    10. Because vomit is upon vomit, and vomit upon vomit,
    and apostasy is upon apostasy, and apostasy upon apostasy,
    a little here and a little there.
    11. Because with incomprehensible speech
    and in another tongue they shall speak to them, to the people here.
    12. Whereas it would be said to them, “This here is my rest for you;
    rest then, you afflicted ones.”
    But they shall be quiet and would not listen.
    13. And the manifestation (Word) of Maryah (Jesus) shall be upon (to) them,
    apostasy upon apostasy and apostasy upon apostasy,
    and vomit upon vomit and vomit upon vomit;
    a little here and a little there,
    so as they may return and become enveloped behind them,
    and they shall be broken, hunted down and captured.

    Don’t you love Isaiah?

  23. Does any of you know what Bill Johnson teaches on the DVDs? Has any of you watched any of them? I haven’t. Why would I comment or pass judgment on something I have not seen? Why would you?

  24. I posted this last year from C3’s website.

    Do we have to buy the $7000 set to find it’s tosh? No!

    Just read this on what I gather is C3′s Facebook or something.

    Presence 2011: Positioning For Power

    Bill Johnson preached on the Person of the Holy Spirit.

    Bill Johnson drew the congregation in further with his message to the Church “to broker or release the presence of the Holy Spirit on the earth.” He reminded the audience that the Holy Spirit was a Person and the Christian life was in essence to illustrate the manifestation of our relationship with the Holy Spirit just as Jesus did during His ministry on earth.

    Johnson stressed Jesus’ humanity—He performed those miracles as a mere mortal and not as God, as most would have thought. It is a compelling revelation that Jesus had set aside His divinity and put on the same restrictions that we as humans have. It was for the purpose of illustrating what man could do when he or she was in a right relationship with God through the Holy Spirit.

    See this is what happens when we don’t have a grasp of theology and Church History. The same heresies Christians fought against are now permissible.


  25. Some time back, I heard that I needed to understand the significance of 16 in my life. It seemed weird so I prayed within for clarity and a whole slew of events and things which featured 16 came to mind – like the age my wife was when I met her and a host of high points in my life.

    I have enjoyed our iron upon iron encounters in this forum, and was just then compelled to consider the avatar chosen “randomly” for me.

    Purple is the color of Royalty and of the King of Kings, the Ancient of Days, the centrality of who God is, His consummate Being, His Oneness. When God explained to me how the colors of the spectrum correspond to His visible attributes, and to His Seven Spirits, Purple was the one accorded His Highness.

    On my purple avatar are 4 x 4 motifs = 16.

    Could not have done better myself.

    I should like to share a little love story. A few years ago, I had made an absolute ass of myself with my wife and I was in Dog Box Damage Control Mode – you know how it is guys.

    I went out in the yard and prayed, “God, what can I do?”

    “Make her a special meal.”

    I saw in my mind’s eye some fresh Salmon we had in the fridge.

    With that I saw like a snapshot of what to make and I went about digging some new potatoes (yum!) and gathering herbs, chillies and cherry tomatoes and then proceeded to cook a meal guided at every step by The Master Chef of All. He told me exactly how I should go about it, to the finest detail. I prepared a meal fit for a Queen – it was amazing – it was Michelin 4 Star – and my wife said it was the nicest meal she had ever eaten.

    I was blown away, we were reconciled (until next time…you know how it is guys, right?) and a few days later I tried to repeat the recipe with some frozen Salmon left over from the first time, and it was a flop, it was barely adequate, it was like….church……

    By the way, in Hebrew, (and my wife is of Hebrew origin), Salmon means PEACE. Isn’t God amazing? 0(:->)

  26. I know it is a rort Greg, I quite agree as to that. But religion is a rort really in so many ways – these guys are just in your face about it and unashamed to ask for the money, but that is America for you, they ask the most and charge the most, its that Dutch heritage…LOL…you know, Peter Stuyvesant and all that.

    The trouble with Babylon is that so often we think we have left it to follow the Lord only to find that we have simply changed address to another suburb of that City which is also known as Sodom and as Egypt.

    The wit and wisdom of Bunyan seems lost upon this generation of Xians – and the concept of conversion, often painful and ever life changing, is relegated to a relic of an old religion supplanted by the “new” reality, the new message that the likes of Joel Osteen have honed to a keen edge – Satan may appear as an Angel of Light, so think it not strange that his ministers may also appear as to be ministers of righteousness.

    Paul never charged for his services, neither did Jesus, in fact, when He held His seminars, lunch was on Him. I think that it is obscene to charge for the gospel, but so often what they are selling is well and truly leavened. I consider too the prophets of God who were despised and rejected and usually dog poor.

    Paul only ever asked alms on behalf of others who were destitute, and we as priests and kings of the New Covenant are supposed to abound to all and have an abundance to every good work, not be sucking the substance of our brother’s and sisters so that we may push our personal agendas and sell our brand of Christianity.

    It used to turn my gut when preachers would proudly proclaim their prosperity when it was the wool off the backs of their flock who they were not above sacrificing should the occasion occur so that they could ensure the fealty of the flock.

    And yet, God gets His work done, mostly in spite of Man, rather than because of them. The days that are coming are going to be very, very dark, and if you are not ready for them, if your lamp is not filled and trimmed, and those who sell oil no longer have their shows on the TV, and there is no Bible, no Church, just persecution and the guillotine for those who will not succumb the the New World Order, then you will either be in the queue for the chop or doing the chopping – this is an issue you need to settle in your hearts now. lest you be deceived when the time comes and think that you are doing God a service in delivering the people of God up to death. (John 161-3) Think about it, Lutherans and Catholics put Jews and Gypsies in ovens…

  27. Just saw your comment Greg – yeah those personal one on ones really finish you for this world. My life has not been so much of me chasing God but rather He drawing me – like he has a job for me to do and He is not going to let me away from it – a Pauline like compulsion to follow the goading of the Holy Spirit. Like C S Lewis, I was a most reluctant convert – God really has the most unusual sense of humor – that is why he gave us the gift of mirrors I think.

  28. ***Some time back, I heard that I needed to understand the significance of 16 in my life. It seemed weird so I prayed within for clarity and a whole slew of events and things which featured 16 came to mind – like the age my wife was when I met her and a host of high points in my life.***

    Sweet 16, first root, oh!,this sounds good,can i offer you a glass of 70 year old Red Wine,
    We are going to need more details Ian,
    More details please?

  29. The implication you make, Greg, regardless of the content of the DVDs, which you have never watched, and which no one here has done anything but speculate about without concrete evidence of good or bad, is that each individual has to pay $7000 for the course, which turns out to be nonsense.

    If the church buys the series, and has, say, 35 participants, it would only cost each $500, which, regardless of whether you or Bones or anyone approves of the course, is not that exorbitant.

    Perhaps you could correct this in the post.

  30. Hello … it has been an age but I decided to check out the latest on here and I have a few points.

    1) while paying for a course does tend to self-select those who would be much more likely to finish it, it is not certain. On the other hand, those who partake of free courses may be doing the course for the wrong reasons. My undergraduate degree was ‘free’ but my post-grad degree was not. There were still those who dropped out.
    The real question about Bill Johnson’s expensive course is whether or not it is complete nonsense.

    Since Bill Johnson has been exposed for his extremely dodgy scripture twisting and narcisistic eisegesis I would expect that similar theological nonsense will pervade his DVD series too. But perhaps that is a step too far … since I don’t know any lottery winners who can afford to throw bundles of cash out of their car windows like confetti, I can’t get hold of a copy to make a comparison between what is being taught there and the Bible.

    2) Lutherans and Catholics did not throw Jews and Gypsies into ovens. LIBERAL ‘christians’ did. The church the Germany was split into two camps. The “German Christians” who were the liberal wing – into higher-criticism/”did God really say …” on the one hand, and the “Confessing Church” on the other who held onto the Bible and who also ended up being deeply critical of Hitler and many pastors joined the Jews and Gypsies in the death-camps. Many of these were Lutheran Pastors.

    Liberal Theology paved the way for fascism …

    What did Fascism seek to deliver?
    A controlled economy. It was anti-capitalist. It was anti-individual. It was concerned for the environment. The NAZIs were the worlds first green party.
    It had to get rid of the Bible, so that the leader became the moral authority of the people.
    It sought to deal with the alienation that individuals felt. Remove loneliness and help people to feel included in a community. This denial of individuality and individual freedom meant that people followed the crowd.
    When the crowd were led to persecute minorities, individual conscience had become muted. No one said “do not murder” … people lost their moral bearings.
    The Leader was the one who would provide the vision. The people had to follow the vision. They had to deliver the vision.
    In the Bunker, Hitler said that the German people were not up to the vision and deserved everything they got … they weren’t strong enough.
    The whole philosophical understanding of how the world works had infected Europe, and one young man who grew up in Vienna brought this understanding to America. It was applied to organisations … building a community, casting a vision for the community, creating a sense of belonging and a shared destiny.

    That man was Peter Drucker, and so you can see the seeds of Fascism in the whole seeker-sensitive movement. Downplay the Bible and upgrade the Vision of the Leader which must be implemented or, according to Mark Driscoll, you get thrown under the bus, or fired from your paid eldership role for not being fully engaged in the leaders vision.

    The one thing you notice with all these leaders is that they cannot have anything in authority over them. Especially the Bible.

    “I have had a vision from God, if you disagree with me then you are disagreeing with God’s vision … etc”
    So we have to add this pronouncement to the Bible. Get it?

    This is ultimately what is wrong with a course like Bill Johnsons. If it contains “new insights” or “special revelation”, what is the difference between him and Joseph Smith?

    We are seeing a Liberal Christian Fascism has emerged.


  31. Bull, if you think Bonhoeffer was a conservative you havent read any of his work.

    The nazi chirches who embraced hitler were evangelical, holiness chirches who embraced a nationalistic triumphal ideology.

    Zhe same that we see from conservative christians in zhe USA.

    I suppose you think Martin Luther King was a condervative and all the racist whites were liberals.

    Thats called revisionism.

  32. Bones,
    I’ll get back to you on Bonhoeffer. A glorious exception, perhaps. But I’ll get back to you on that.

    Regarding the Nazi churches, you say that they embraced a nationalistic triumphal ideology. Yes.
    Were they reformed theologically? No.
    Why? Their theology had been hollowed out by higher-criticism, which is essentially the the same as Deconstructionism ala Rob Bell.
    Did they preach the Bible? No. It was jewish book with a slave ideology. The Nazis tried to remove all trace of the Jews from the German Church but gave up and invented their own religion which the German Christians accepted.

    Do we hear about repentance and the forgiveness of sins through the shed blood of Christ today?
    No, we hear a positive message of inclusion and community and how we need to submit ourselves to the leaders vision.
    The last time I heard the word repentance in my Church was two years ago … when I said it.

    Regarding ‘conservative’ christians in the USA: You are correct that that there is a dominionist movement in the USA, that is also a totalitarianism. But dominionism is a broad church, it embraces some conservatives and it embraces a lot of pragmatics like Rick Warren.
    Whatever works … doctrine divides so lets not be dogmatic about the faith.
    If you look really closely at the whole dominionism/seven mountains of culture movement, you’ll notice that there is little that they actually care about other than “taking dominion”.
    The people who don’t buy into dominionism, don’t accept liberal theology either.

    The ones who reject the seeker-sensitive thing reject WordOfFaith, liberal theology and reject Dominionism, do so for the same reason.

    Reformed theologians cannot stand Scripture Twisting, narcissistic eisigesis. All these movements reject the Bible in some way.

    It’s not about being ‘conservative’ or non-conservative.

    The question is: How do we read our Bible? Is it a box of magic proof texts that we can pick and choose in order to release our God-Given destiny? Is this Bible all about me or is it a book that reveals to us what God is like, and what He is, and what He did for us and what He expects of us?

    Is it a dusty old book written by people who were culturally conditioned and is now 2000 years out of date with our contemporary society? Or is it alive? Is it God’s revealed word for all humanity everywhere and every time?

    Do we merely take the bits we like and leave the rest?
    Or must we take it as a whole?

    In the end, what we do with the Bible informs our understanding of God and His Character and His personality. It tells us why we need Salvation, and what Jesus did to accomplish that.

    Is the God who had told Moses to write Leviticus the same God whom Jesus called Father?

  33. Bones,
    Zhe same that we see from conservative christians in zhe USA.

    But I thought your complaint was that the evangelical US Christians overly support Israel and influence US policy in the Middle East.

    This is a far cry from the Nazi holocaust.

    You’re talking through your takiyah!

  34. Interesting comments on Nazism Bones and its connection to current Christian trends. Consider that the prewar white population of the USA was 54% German by origin – even the top General Eisenhower was German. Ironically those hanged at Nuremberg were strangled, the traditional Norse means of sacrifice. The majority of those hanged were Lutheran and some were Catholic – only one was an atheist according to the accounts of this by the American Chaplin who ministered to them.

    The DUMB-IN-YER-NEST movement, WOF and all that is very similar to Mormonism, but where the real commonality of religions springs from is Babylon – the Indo-Aryan religion which became among other things, Hinduism, Judaism, Catholicism, Freemasonry, and a whole host of esoteric offshoots.

    The trouble with Babylon is though you think that you may have come out of her, in fact most have simply changed address and church. The only way to truly leave Babylon is for Babylon to leave you – for the leavening of hypocrisy to be driven out by the New Leaven of righteousness, as He removes all which offends (prevents).

    America is being Nazified and the agenda behind it is much more sinister than one might think. Since the end of WW2, German Siontists have been “converting” much of especially Middle America to their way of thinking. The first war resulted in a population cull and the League of Nations. The second an even greater cull and the UN, so what is the plan post WW3? An even bigger cull and then a World Govt? I think so. I asked my husband Jesus a while back what was going on and who was behind it and one of the things He said was “Never, ever forget the Germans”, and before that, :My Army, the Assyrians”.

    On June 16th last year, Her Mad-you-see conferred on her potty son the ranks of Filed Marshal, Air Marshal and Grand Admiral of all United Kingdom and Commonwealth Forces, answerable to the Supreme Commander in Chief – her. Do you think someone is getting set to go to war? The Guelfs (aka Windsors) are German Jews, as is Rothschild. The Wolf family has ruled Europe for 1500 years, before that they ruled Rome and before that Egypt and Assyria – they have been in the governing and tribute business for a long time.

    When all is said and done it is vital to comprehend that God gives leaders and teachers after the hearts of the people – He told me Germany got a Hitler at its head because of the ‘Hitler’ in their hearts. If guys like Bill Johnson or whoever are doing what they do, it is for us to discern whether it is of God, but instead of contending over whether it is right or not, all we have the mandate to do is to pray the will of God into the situation, as it may well be by God’s will that such delusion even exists.

    True prayer is not communication with God, it is THE COMMUNICATION OF GOD. You know, THY WILL be done.

    9. “Therefore, this is how you shall pray:
    Our heavenly Father,
    hallowed is your name.
    10. “Your Kingdom is come.
    Your will is done,
    As in heaven so also on earth.
    11. “Give us the bread for our daily need.
    12. “And leave us serene,
    just as we also allowed others serenity.
    13. “And do not pass us through trial,
    except separate us from the evil one.
    For yours is the Kingdom,
    the Power and the Glory
    To the end of the universe,
    of all the universes.” Amen!
    14. “For if you forgive human beings their faults,
    your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
    15. “But if you do not forgive human beings,
    your Father will not forgive your faults also.

    If you DO NOT FORGIVE FOLK THEIR FAULTS, neither will GOD FORGIVE YOU YOURS. The world is in the debtors prison and death and debt are two sides of the same coin.

    There will be another war – it has been planned that way by the Germans, but it takes a bit of thinking to figure that out.

    I figure it will be about 2015 – about our 40yrs since I met my Rachel. You goys are just jealous I got a Jewess, yes?

  35. Remember too that the end game is to destroy Israel and the people of God, and to give the earth back to the Devil, and probably even more so, to offer the final holocaust (burnt offering) – the entire world. Don’t expect this mob to be sane any time soon, until the Prince of Peace comes there will be no peace – Man cannot organize nor legislate it as warring is bound in the hearts of Mankind as long as lust is still lust.

    If you are not prepared to be martyred, then make sure that you are not prepared to do any martyring – when faced with death and denial, many will fail and fall rather than lay down their lives.

    We can only become transformed into the image which we behold, and if that is an abomination which stands as God then that is what we will become – and abominable behavior will result such that those who deliver the faithful up to death will think that they do God a service.

    Because for the most part the many do not have a Savior who laid down His life for ALL, they have a conditional Christ of condemnation who tells people to go to hell, and so they do too.

    Until you see that he laid down His Life, One for All, then you only have a partial revelation of Jesus and the saving grace of God so you CANNOT manifest a complete witness. If you behold the One who laid down His Life for all such that he shall restore all things both in heaven and in the earth, then you only have part of the story and will retain that part of your life (which is death) and your pearls (coping mechanisms and knowledge of good and evil which is death) instead of going through the narrow birth canal into THE ABUNDANT LIFE.

    We Xians talk a big game, but who is “there” yet? Press on.

    Oh and Bones, is repentance a grace or an act of the will? Pray that God would GRANT REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the Truth – that Truth which alone sets free. Until God sees the heart is ready to receive repentance, then we just don’t get it, or as Isaiah said God said, “These people return to me with lies on their lips”.

    The memory of our Father draws us back to His heart, but it is He who grants the gifts that restore us to His fellowship, to His side. Consider this lest we become a grizzle-guts brother….

  36. Steve I’ve never said that the individual pays $7000, however wether it’s an individual person or an individual church it is still an outrageous amount to charge.

  37. There is no box that you tick on the bethel website that distinguishes between church or individual the cost is $7000 and that is a crock of shit! The post says in fact that individuals pay up to $700 to do the course and actually says churches are charged $7000 , so perhaps you can do a pre-kinder reading comprehension course and get with the program, thus negating the need for me to do remedial work with you everytime I write a post or comment.

  38. Yes, thank you, Greg. $720 per person. So not that much, when you consider you’re paying $14000 to gain a diploma.

    And you have, n your article, slipped from an alleged scam to an accusation, but have provided scant evidence. I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong, but your article is somewhat short on actual proof of Johnson’s course either being a scam, fake or bulldust (whatever that means).

    The Alpha Course is, by the way, an introduction to Christianity from an evangelical persecutive. It is very well put together, but hardly a comprehensive Bible School course.

    Alpha is free to participants because it is geared for the unsaved person so they can be introduced to Christianity. It is not a course for Christians to take them into a more comprehensive understanding of discipleship, as with a Bible School course. So making a comparison is hardly appropriate.

    If you are going to make claims of scams, fakery and whatever you consider bulldust to be, you will have to come up with some evidence of what the course teaches, and why you consider it to be Biblically or logically wrong.

    There is nothing wrong with providing a DVD course. It is the same classroom teaching provided on site, but not all people are able to get to the site, so it is a means of reaching people and providing an education. In UK we have Open University which provides degree courses for individuals.

    In short, the delivery method is not relevant to the accusation. We have experience on the strong and positive effect a DVD training course can have on people living in remote areas.
    many colleges utilise DVD and other technologies to enhance training methods.

    You premise that DVD teaching is worthless is wrong.

    Now we await with interest your breakdown of why the teaching is a scam, fake or whatever else you are claiming.

  39. But I thought your complaint was that the evangelical US Christians overly support Israel and influence US policy in the Middle East.

    Of course they do. Israel is their second country.

    We must support Israel a any cost, even if it means persecuting Christians.

    Regardless of what the prophets said.

  40. I’ll get back to you on Bonhoeffer. A glorious exception, perhaps. But I’ll get back to you on that.

    An exception?

    Was Tutu an exception. He’s reviled by the reformed because of his progay theology and because he stood against the Dutch Reformed Church and their apartheid.

    Where did apartheid come from Bull?

    Sure wasn’t liberal Christians.

    Who burned witches and heretics at the stake. Sure wasn’t liberal Christians.

    It’s secularism and the Enlightenment which puts a leash on our extremists.

    This is the lunacy of the Reformed.

    Check out Calvin and Cromwell as well.

    That’s what happens when Christians impose their own sharia law on society.

  41. Lutherans and Catholics did not throw Jews and Gypsies into ovens. LIBERAL ‘christians’ did.

    Right, now the coup de gras for this nonsense.

    Luther’s antisemitic views permeated European culture. In fact Luther was brought up at the Nuremburg War Crimes with some Lutherans saying that if they are on trial than Luther should be as well. And they were right.

    Martin Luther’s On the Jews and Their Lies was a blueprint for the holocaust.

    In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a “base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth.”[13] They are full of the “devil’s feces … which they wallow in like swine.”[14] The synagogue was a “defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut …”[15] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection,[17] and these “poisonous envenomed worms” should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[18] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing “[w]e are at fault in not slaying them”.[19]

    That wasn’t a liberal Christian.

    That was the father of the Reformation. Your hero.

    From whom Hitler was able to theologically justify his treatment of the Jews.

    An apology is in order but it’s hard for the religious to accept they are wrong.

    Being wrong is a hideous thing to be.

    It could cost you eternity.

  42. I’m putting out a video on leg lengthening tricks complete with gold dust and signed Brian Houston’s new book “I Need More Money – Why You Need to Tithe” .

    Cost $10 000 a set. (Mate’s Rates)

    Line up if you’re interested.

    You’ll be pumped.

  43. “You premise that DVD teaching is worthless is wrong.”

    Sometimes you don’t need to look under your shoe to know you’ve stood in dogshit.

  44. It’s logically wrong dickhead because you can’t learn to heal and raise the dead! It is not accredited and the whole premise…that you need to pay to learn to heal is bullshit. Your looking also at only one half if the article. Bill Johnson’s claims are in the same vein as pastor sign firemans! Gold dust? Angel feathers? Bullshit and fakery…why would his $7000 DVD be any different?

  45. Once again though you show yourself to be a fool…more willing to defend the likes of bill Johnson than discuss the veracity of so called healing miracles in the church today.

  46. From what I can gather Bill’s course teaches healing, how to walk in signs and wonders, developing a prophetic culture, demonstrating the Gospel with power and activating the students in the supernatural. Further it appears it comes from the first-year course at his ministry school, and he hasnt incurred any incremental cost in making it.

    If one had such amazing information and skills – that are able to be learned by anyone, it would surely be unethical to withold it from anyone who would be interested in studying it. Why would they charge for it, when it could be cheaply provided at no cost for download over the internet, and it has such transformative power? Millions could be healed and released from suffering if this information was disseminated. Many more who witnessed people walking in signs and wonders would be saved from an eternity in hell.

    Surely if one had such information it would be immoral to keep it to yourself. Indeed one could expect to be punished by God for such immorality if one had not played the get-out-of-jail-free card of confessing Jesus as one’s Lord and Saviour.

    There are essentially two types of information in this DVD pack – information that is of God, and information that isn’t. The stuff that isn’t of God is worthless and should not be paid for. The stuff that is of God belongs to the whole world and should not be charged for.

  47. I see Steve has put his hand up to buy my dvd of leg lengthening tricks for $10000.

    It’ll be money well spent. I’ll give it to the Fred Hollows Foundation where 400 people will be healed.

  48. Poor old Greg is foaming at the mouth again. He has no proof of anything, which makes his claims very vulnerable indeed. He is merely surmising, and has gone into a lather because someone has asked him for proof of his claims which he is unable to furnish because he is prejudiced but short on actual research.

    There is more fabrication to his accusations than proof he can muster to actually emonstrate clearly any falsehood in Johnson’s course.

    Bones is worrying over nothing as usual and offering sarcasm and cynical hogwash in return for recognition that he is a liberal who hates anything resembling Pentecostal or evangelical doctrine.

    Wazza, meanwhile, places conditions on every Bible School and Theological Seminary on the planet, that they provide their education at no cost.

    I’m not even saying the course is good or bad, since I haven’t seen it myself. All I’ve asked for is proof.

    Personally, I learned just about everything I know from the Good Book, and by the leadership of the Holy Spirit, and it cost me nothing. people I’ve been led to pray for who have subsequently recovered recieved it for free. i’ve taught many people for free, because, as Jesus said, ‘freely you received, freely give’.

    However, I think asking for a fee for Bible training is reasonable. no one is forced to engage. It is their choice entirely.

    Greg, meanwhile, lets it be known he doesn’t believe in healing by laying on of hands anyway, which is a Biblically unsound understanding of healing, and evidence of is own lack of faith.

    It’s frothy, man!

  49. Greg,
    the likes of Bill Johnson

    What do you mean by this? Tell us what you know. Have you extensively read his work, or watched his ministry? Or are you basing your claims on negative press?

    You say there’s something wrong with what you term ‘defending the likes of Bill Johnson’, when all I have done is ask for your reason for denouncing his teaching series with such indignation. Is that a defence, or a request?

    I’m actually giving you the opportunity to further produce proof of wrongdoing, but, instead of going to it, you hurl insults at me, which, as far as I can make out, is evidence that you have nothing to offer as proof to back up your claims.

    I’ve about had it up to here with blogs which make assumptions, aim false accusations, and make unsubstantiated claims about a handful of Christian ministries.

    I’m asking you to qualify your claims.

  50. I think a lot of Bible schools should think about providing their courses free over the internet. Many top universities are providing their course-material or videos of their lectures free of charge.

    This would not be the same as going to the school, but at least the information would be in the public domain.

    If Bill did that, there might be more “Dead Raising Teams”

    Dead Raising Team

    In an Oct. 19, 2008, sermon, Johnson shared a story about a former BSSM student who moved to Washington State and started a ministry called the Dead Raising Team.

    “DRT,” he repeated the acronym dramatically at several points during the story.

    In a video of the sermon, Johnson said the team got approval from Mason County to be listed along with other county services and had been given badges so they can go behind police lines if there’s an accident or fatality. Johnson told the audience, who erupted in shouts of “come on, Jesus” and cheers, that there had been one resurrection so far.

    Marty Best, manager of the Mason County Department of Emergency Management, said he met the Dead Raising Team and suggested they become volunteers for his department so they could have access to emergency situations.

    “Our mandate is to protect life, property and environment,” he said. “If a person is raised by a defibrillator and adrenaline or by prayer they still return to their loved ones.”

    Best said the team must first get the permission of the unit commander before they can start praying over a fatality and they can never impose it on anyone.

    In contrast to what Johnson said, the DRT is not included in the services listed on the Mason County Web sited.

    Nor have there been any resurrections, Best said.

    “Not yet,” he added.

    Johnson said the resurrection he mentioned in his sermon was from a DRT report and that he never said it had happened behind police lines.

  51. wazza,
    I think a lot of Bible schools should think about providing their courses free over the internet.

    I can’t disagree with this in essence. There is another consideration, though. They do need to survive, and provide for staff and premises for those who are able to attend the school. How could the school exist to produce online teaching without some kind of financial support?

  52. The man himself says gold dust, angels feathers and gems fall from the ceiling of his church…that’s enough for me to know that nothing he produces is of any value. He is a liar and a faker.

  53. Steve said “How could the school exist to produce online teaching without some kind of financial support?”

    A wise man once said “If you let money dominate your thinking when you enter ministry, you’ll fail every time.” (well actually it was Steve on this thread)

    I’m not an expert on Church funding, but maybe they could ask for donations or something… Then the ones who could afford to pay would do so, but it would still be available for others to access.

    Neither Bethel nor Hillsong ask how the students can exist and pay exhorbitant fees without some kind of financial support. They are merely told to trust God for their needs. Why don’t they ever follow their own advice?

  54. And so you focus on the bible school and not the blatant lies of a person being raised from the dead. Lies. Fakes. Bullshit.

    Cue Steve, to tell us how unorthodox we all are.

  55. Greg,
    all you’ve told us is that you haven’t seen the DVDs, and your evidence is based on your opinion of peripherals.

    you haven’t seen one second of the teaching on the DVDs, so you have no way to make any kind assessment.

    You see, posting on a blog is a form of journalism. If you are attempting an exposé of an organisation or ministry, and if you make extraordinary claims, such as scamming, or fakery, or people who lie about their own claims, then you need to explain why you came to that conclusion.

    You are saying this ministry is teaching false doctrine. Show us why it is false.

    You are saying that, following on from your first premise, because you say the doctrine is false, therefore the price is not warranted, therefore it is a scam.

    A scam resulting in what? Are you saying they made up things so that they can charge money for DVDs which have a false message? If so, tell us what is false about the message.

    But if you have never seen the DVDs, and, as a result, do not know what is being taught, your post is completely fake. It has no credibility. You have not shown what the DVDs say and compared what they say to normal Biblical practice. You have not provided a single shred of evidence.

    You have merely indicated that you can’t believe in Christian workers administering healing, or that people can be raised from the dead, or that signs and wonders can happen in certain situations.

    Demonstrating your own unbelief is not evidence of other person’s scam or fakery. It is evidence of your opinion and unbelief. Nothing more.

  56. wazza,I’m not an expert on Church funding, but maybe they could ask for donations or something… Then the ones who could afford to pay would do so, but it would still be available for others to access.

    Well, yes, that is reasonable, but it doesn’t really help a person who has committed for three or four semesters to be part of a teaching faculty, who has financial commitments of their own, including a family, rent or mortgage, and suchlike.

    Students can’t learn without a tutor. It is far more pragmatic to have a set fee for a prearranged term.

    People need to be able to make plans and have an organised life.

    Besides which, students can then organised their own working arrangements. Most will be young and single, so they will be doing part time work. It’s all part of college life, isn’t it? It’s what shapes us.

    Maybe you could start believing God for your income every day, and not be on a fixed salary. Perhaps you could make an arrangement with your employer for him to randomly remunerate to assist you own faith project.

  57. Wow, gold dust at Bethel

    Some of Bill’s angel feathers were tested (without Bill’s permission of course) and they were surprisingly found to be BIRD feathers.

    Gee God does some boring miracles.

    Parting of the Red Sea was much more exciting.

    Some gold glitter is blown around and Christians act like 3 year olds.

    It’s an obvious scam.

    The whole thing is a scam.

    Shame on those who support this nonsense.

  58. And to be quite honest Steve, I couldn’t care less wether the material is truth or falsity….$7000 is outrageous no matter what the material…and that is the issue the post talks about regarding the DVDs.

  59. Bill takes credit for raising 16 people from the dead in Brazil floods.

    Michael and I have attended several meetings in the DFW area where Bill Johnson spoke. POWERFUL!!!! He is the pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, CA. They train their church members to pray for healing in public places!! Take a look at what has happened after the floods in BRAZIL! A team from Bethel “went on the road” …. a “Glory Explosion”!!!

    Caleme, Teresopolis

    16 Dead Bodies Confirmed Resurrected from the Dead

    Sunday, January 16, 2011
    CALEME, TERESOPOLIS, Brazil – People of the barrio of Caleme have witnessed Saturday 5 dead bodies raised from the dead in the street. Another 10 bodies from the morgue have been raised to life. One woman who drowned and was dead was also raised back to life. The people in Caleme reported that 5 American men went near the 5 bodies and yelled, “Rise and live in the name of Jesus.” The dead bodies started to shake and stood up and walked and are alive.

    At the nearby morgue, there were 10 dead bodies in the hallway. People said that 5 foreign women went near the bodies and said, “Rise and live in the name of Jesus.” The dead bodies shook and stood up shaking and walking and were alive. People were screaming, yelling. Riot at the barrio of Caleme.

    These 5 dead bodies in the street of Caleme have been dead since Wednesday January 12. The 10 dead bodies in the morgue have been left in the hallway since Wednesday. People have talked to the dead risen. They were still weak but were able to talk and they said, “I was in a dark place many people crying, shouting. Was I asleep? Now I am alive!” “I know I was dead. I was in a dark, ugly place. I do not know what happened, but I am back to life. God is alive.”

    The families of these dead are celebrating and happy. There has been hope in Caleme since Saturday.


  60. Oooops. None of that happened.

    There is not one medically verified miracle from the Bill Johnson sect.

    Sooo…for anyone who continues to follow this, the story has been officially recanted by the very people who began this whole debacle. I’ll post the text from the full email below, but long story short, the “nurse” who went with the imaginary team to Brazil and performed the imaginary resurrections, was….GASP!!!!!….making the whole thing up! It only took six months for the braintrust who swore and swore and swore, and defended, and watched this whole thing turn into a circus, to realize their friend was an insane liar.


    Now why would people lie about miracles like this and defend it to the hilt?

    (Scratches head, scratches crotch)

    Gee, that’s a hard one that.

    Maybe Steve knows.

  61. Greg,
    I couldn’t care less wether the material is truth or falsity

    Why? If it is truth then it is valid. If it is false, then you have a point.

    If I have produced a post saying that RC dogma is a scam and fake without producing evidence you would have been the first to jump on me and say I was a bulldust artist.

    But in producing clear doctrinal evidence I have shown it to be error.

    Why should your own attitude be taken as evidence? It clearly isn’t.

    Let’s come back to your opening premise, though.

    Do you believe Christians can lay hands on the sick and the sick can recover?

    Do you believe the dead can be raised through the ministry of believers?

    Do you believe the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit are available today?

  62. So Steve you can’t comment on this dvd without seeing it.

    Our Lady of Good Success: History, Miracles & Prophecies DVD

  63. Of course not. If I was going to produce a damning article on it I would at least have to see enough of it to comment.

    I might have a preconceived notion to opinion, but if I was producing an article which accused it of being a scam or fake I would need to show why.

  64. You see, Greg, with this article, is no better than the c3churchwatch/hillsongchurchwatch crew, who fabricate inaccurate and disconnected stories based on their own foul attitude and lack of understanding of the Word, including their own poor theology and limited and flawed interpretation of scripture, which leads them to file reports with more innuendo than a Benny Hill skit.

    All they have is a bad report mentality and a steaming desire to pile negative upon negative on their target groups. What they don’t see is their own bigoted worldview is exposed by their lack of understanding of how to script an accurate, unbiased report.

    I am merely trying to help Greg out of this dilemma by pressing him for the kind evidence needed to prove him right. I cannot debate him, as he says he’d like, if there is nothing concrete to debate, and if he is merely going to come back at me with insults and dismissive remarks when I ask for qualification of his claims.

    I get the same response at the aforementioned sites, and I am, of course, banned from commentary because I ask the kind of questions and produce the kind of counter evidence which refutes their claims or demands a better explanation.

    Their use of extreme moderating techniques and reluctance to discuss the reasons for their inaccurate reports shows them to be dishonest in their approach and afraid of any kind of dissent, criticism or contradiction, which, further, makes them more culpable than those they falsely accuse of reversion to criticism or challenge.

    This is a bona fidé approach to discussion, and one which, if Greg is correct, should produce at least basic evidence to demonstrate his claims, or an apology for failing to observe the first rule of constructive criticism in journalism – to know what you’re talking about, and have actual evidence before posting your critique.

  65. No to all three

    Except perhaps possibly to number 1…I’m open, but to raising the dead? In nearly 2000 years there has never been one single verifiable case of this occurring. It will not, can’t and hasn’t happened.

  66. is no better than the c3churchwatch/hillsongchurchwatch crew,

    For a while this site was catholicchurchwatch. You didn’t seem to have a problem with that. Actually you were/are the driving force behind it.

    Can you tell me how the posts about angel feathers, gold dust or fake resurrections are in any way bigoted?

    That’s not innuendo. That’s from their own site.

    Experience tells me if a car dealer is selling shonky cars you don’t buy a car off them no matter how good the deal.

    Take this Ferrari for $10 000. Yeah sure.

    The guys has no verified miracles and is involved in highly dubious practices which are just plain fakery. He’s a shonk. Plain and simple.

    And to review his ‘curriculum’ involves parting with $7000 hard earned for which, if I had it, would definitely heal 280 people of blindness.

    No wonder the world laughs at Christianity.

    Your only way of arguing is to attack Greg.

    Is Greg the one duping his congregation with blatant falsehoods and tricks?

  67. What do you want Steve? Bill claims he has gold and gems and angel feathers falling. I say this is bullshit. He claims to be able to teach people how to raise the dead. I say this is bullshit. So does any reasonable and close to intelligent person.

    You claimed that my premise was that bethel charged people $7000 form the dvd’s I showed you that non where had I claimed that. You didn’t even bother to acknowledge you were wrong. I’ve asked you to explain go anyone can justify $7000 for a DVD course. I challenge you to find anywhere else that sells anything like that at anywhere near the price. Even Anthony Robins doesn’t…and he has good solid stuff to sell!

  68. Bones,
    For a while this site was catholicchurchwatch.

    No! You are wrong.

    I produced five succinct articles on outstanding errors of the RC church, covering the dogmas of Mary, canonisation of saints, purgatory, none of which are backed by scripture.

    Your support of these dogmas and doctrines does not make them Biblical or theologically correct.

    Secondly, I produced evidence to support my claims, evidence which was sourced from their own outlets, including their Catechisms and the Vatican Library.

    Thirdly, I worked with the subsequent threads to confirm everything I wrote in the articles.

    There was not one supposition, innuendo or contrived accusation on any of those articles.

    Your only way of arguing is to attack Greg.

    I have not attacked Greg. I have asked him to produce verifiable evidence.

    You are the master of ad hominem attacks. Greg has, in the past, been equally ferocious. At least, on this thread, he only calls me a ‘dickhead’ and ‘fool’.

    It would be a simple matter for both you and Greg to just admit you have no evidence that these DVDs are either right or wrong and stop making excuses for each other and about your claims.

    Then you can give your opinion and let everyone know that is what it is, your opinion based on your own preconceived notions of whether God heals, delivers or performs miracles today.

    That would make your commentary honest.

  69. Steve…I don’t care if they are right or wrong! The only point I make about the videos…which you are yet to adequately challenge, is that at $7000 Bill Johnson is ripping churches off. The other things I’ve said about him are true and from his own witness…and they are lies and fakery. There is no raising of the dead. There is no good dust. There are no angel feathers.

  70. Well I don’t know what is in the videos, how long the course is, and what the results are with those who have sat through it and completed it. It seems that Bethel has seen significant growth, so maybe they are unto something. Have people been healed, delivered, saved as a result and brought into the church? I don’t know.

    Neither do you. That’s the point. How can you place a value on the video teaching if you do not know the content?

    Secondly, the cost is spread amongst participants, so it is not individually $7000. They are asked for $720 for the first year course. How long is it? You don’t say. How is it organised? You don’t say. What does it teach? You don’t say.

    The course, judging form the promotion, covers far more than ‘raising the dead’. You are sensationalising a small part of the teaching, obviously.

    Did any of Jesus’ disciples raise people form the dead? Yes. Did he say it would happen in his disciples ministry? Yes. Is it possible? Yes.

    Whether you believe in healing deliverance or miracles is completely down to your own understanding and grasp of scripture and being a disciple of Christ. You say you can’t believe these things. Therefore your opinion is coloured by your understanding.

  71. Recant of what? Being wrong on purpose? Not believing what Jesus said? Not trusting God?

    Smith Wigglesworth is reputed to have raised several people from the dead.

    I know missionaries who have seen outstanding miracles including people raised.

    But you won’t believe any report I give.

    I became reluctant to give testimony on this site some time ago because of the reception it receives from doubters.

    You will always rationalise miracles. It is the way of the sceptic.

  72. Exactly! Scoff first, think later!

    Now you’re starting to act like Hugh the Zorronymous!

    ‘It wasn’t logical, the doctor thought. The man had suffered a massive heart attack and died 40 minutes ago. Even his skin had started to turn black.

    But the feeling wouldn’t go away, Dr. Chauncey W. Crandall reports in his new book, “Raising the Dead: A Doctor Encounters the Miraculous,” and he felt compelled to return to the emergency room where the body of auto mechanic Jeff Markin rested.

    Crandall already had finished up the paperwork reporting on Markin’s demise and had been headed out of the room.

    “Before I crossed its threshold, however, I sensed God was telling me to turn around and pray for the patient,” he reports.

    It was Oct. 20, 2006, at Palm Beach Gardens Medical Center, and Crandall said he felt God telling him to give Markin one more shock with a defibrillator. He gave the order, and Markin’s heart monitor immediately registered a steady heartbeat. Markin remains alive and well today.

    Crandall is chief of the cardiovascular transplant program at the Palm Beach Cardiovascular Clinic in Palm Beach Gardens and is on staff at Good Samaritan Medical Center and Jupiter Medical Center. He has lectured nationally on topics including heart transplantation, preventive cardiology, healing and cardiology health care of the elderly.’


  73. That’s your evidence? A defribulator brings the guy back and you claim that as a raising of the dead? You are struggling aren’t you. That’s just like my friends the Pentecostals who claimed their prayers resulted in the resuscitation of the heroin overdose patient. Come on Steve…you’re going to have to do better than that bullshit.

  74. Thi one’s hilarious!

    ‘LAGOS, Nigeria — A modern Lazarus miracle caused city-wide revival in this nation’s capital city, but the man at the center of it is anything but happy.

    “I’d like 15 minutes in a room with brass knuckles and that idiot Famuel,” said David LaPonte, 43, the revived man. “I don’t give a [care] about my witness.”

    Evangelist Nguno Famuel prayed over LaPonte’s casket during a crusade meeting in mid-June. LaPonte had died from severe dysentery. Famuel thought LaPonte would rejoice at being revived, but he sat up and looked around and seemed crestfallen. His first words were, “What the …? I’m back?” The crowd of thousands cheered and praised God, but LaPonte hopped out of the casket and demanded to know who’d raised him from the dead. Others pointed at Famuel, and the revived man began chasing him around, cursing and shouting threats until he was restrained.

    He recounted how he’d been in a tunnel of light with relatives and angels all around him. At the end of the tunnel was Jesus, but before LaPonte reached him, he felt himself sucked back through the tunnel and into his body. He came to consciousness in the casket in a dirty tent meeting in Lagos.

    LaPonte was taken home and pronounced healthy and well. Doctors revoked his death certificate. But three weeks later, he’s still furious, despite the revival that resulted from the miracle. He says he’s considered suicide. He cries “all night and all day,” he says.

    Famuel has tried to make amends, and invited LaPonte to take part in crusades so that “many more will be saved.” LaPonte refuses. And he vows that if he ever encounters Famuel on a dark street he’ll “beat the living s**t out of him.”


  75. It is…what a great story! And that’s all it is…a story…life the stuff that comes out of Nigeria! Same place pastor fireman Sam comes from as well! Please Steve, you’re killing me! Lucky we’ve got lafonte or Crandall to bring me back!

  76. Why, Greg? What’s your problem? Why would I have evidence of people being raised? If they are raised, they are raised. They go on to live until they die. Why would I have that evidence any more than I have evidence of the sick being healed? They are healed! they go home and live normal lives.

    Why should I have to prove to you what you can’t believe? Not my problem.

    I’ve seen countless people healed, some verified medically, and you still wouldn’t believe if I produced medical certificates form doctors.

    It’s simply not in you to believe anything supernatural.

    You don’t believe that believers can lay hands on the sick and the sick can recover. There is your starting point for criticising those who do.

    raising the dead is an extreme version of healing and requires faith, healing and miracles. They are very rare. i have not witnessed it. I do believe it can happen and I believe it has happened. I am open to it taking place in my ministry. I simply believe.

    You are asking for evidence BEFORE you believe. That is not how faith works.

    The issue is whether you believe God or not.

  77. Intelligence should tell you that knowledge is no substitute for belief.

    Presumably the Pharisees were intelligent. The Romans were intelligent enough to conquer and rule the world for centuries. The devil himself is intelligent.

    Richard Dawkins is intelligent. Yet he wouldn’t believe in God on principle, even if Jesus appeared to him.

    As Paul says, ‘Knowledge puffs up but love edifies’. How do I love someone who is sick and needing prayer if my intelligence claims healing is not for today, or is impossible?

    Do you not think that the Spirit of God is intelligent, and knows when we should be endowed with his manifestations and gifts to minister to those in need? Hs he stopped being able to manifest his gifts? Is God’s grace, mercy and love limited?

    Is healing, deliverance and even raising the dead now beyond God’s capacity?

    Is it really dependent on your intelligence? Or faith?

  78. That resurrection story was funny.

    This was pretty funny too.

    Exiting pastor saddles church with odd worship leader

    FRESNO — After repeated conflicts with his church board about the direction of Family Life Center, pastor Dave Chandler decided to leave the church. But on his way out he used a little-known clause in the bylaws to singlehandedly hire a new worship leader: Bill MacNerny who specializes in “alien folk music” and “tunes for chickens and other intelligent beings.” MacNerny was last employed as a street performer in Key West, Fla., and has made several albums of himself playing the ukelele and making barnyard sounds.

    “We’re in a true bind,” says board member Jeff Garrety. “We couldn’t believe when this bozo showed up to lead worship.”

    The quirk in the bylaws gave Chandler sole authority to hire and fire the worship leader and to define contract terms. The contract includes a severability clause of $150,000 if MacNerny is fired before two years. It also specifies that he must lead worship on Sunday mornings and any other time the church meets. Lawyers informed the board that the contract is legitimate and must be respected.

    On a recent Sunday morning, MacNerny opened the service with a rendition of “Amazing Grace” in which he encouraged audience members to make “Martian noises.” Few people joined in. He then segued into “This Old Man, he played one, he played knick-knack on my thumb” and seemed unfazed by people’s non-participation.

    The church has tried to work around MacNerny by cranking the volume of everyone else on stage and having other musicians wear brightly colored clothing. Still, it’s hard to look past his signature look which he describes on his web page as “Where exactly am I?”

    “It saps part of your soul to show up Sunday morning and see Bill in his undersized cowboy hat, strumming the ukelele,” says one man. “A lot of people are trying out other churches.”

    Some want the church to pay $150,000 just to get rid of MacNerny. Others want to make the best of it for two years and say it could bolster small group participation.

    After making a series of weird noises he describes as “me entering the room,” MacNerny says in a phone interview that he is happy to be at Family Life Center because it offers a built-in audience and less reliance on tips. Street performing taught him to hold people’s attention, a skill he hopes to employ at the church, along with “making sure people get their proper amounts of of gamma rays, and also consider poultry ownership,” he says.

    Chandler, in between ministry assignments and living in Alabama, says he thinks MacNerny makes a good fit for the church, and for the board members. •


  79. It’s not beyond gods capacity to make children safe from pedophiles either…but that hasn’t happened either.

    Your version of belief is a sorry excuse for irresponsibility.

  80. Greg,
    Your version of belief is a sorry excuse for irresponsibility.

    That’s a silly comment from an angry man.

    And you tie it to pedophilia. What is it with you people? Are you hinting at something else you can’t back up?

    I don’t have a ‘version’ of belief. There is no ‘version’ of belief. you ether believe God or you don’t. Either God said it or he didn’t. Either God means what he said or he didn’t.

    It’s not a matter of some ‘version’ of faith. It is written.

    Therefore, it is actually irresponsible not to believe God if we know what God has said.

    Your self-elevated intelligence says it is right to ignore what God says about healing and deliverance. Your intelligence says, ‘I haven’t seen it therefore it doesn’t exist’, when the Word says it is as close as your lips and in your heart.

    So, unlike Peter and John, you would have walked past the lame man at the Gate of the Temple claiming to have nothing to offer him.

    He would have died lame and a beggar.

    That’s the level of responsibility he disbelieving intelligent man offers.

  81. Angry? I’m not angry Steve…just dumbstruck at the stupidity of people who believe when it’s as plain as the nose on an elephant that when you’re dead you’re dead and when you’re being asked to pay $7000 for a DVD series you’re being scammed and ripped off.

  82. So Peter and John offered the man ‘the cold comfort of a bullship belief’, did they?

    Where do you folk get off?

  83. Do you even know what Peter and John gave the man?

    Acts 3:6-10
    Then Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.” And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them–walking, leaping, and praising God. And all the people saw him walking and praising God. Then they knew that it was he who sat begging alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple; and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.

    Yes, that’s right, he received healing. How? Through faith in Jesus Christ. They gave him the best gift possible in the name of Jesus.

    “His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.”

    So, Greg, do you have the name of Jesus?

  84. Oh gosh! Well now we know! Greg’s level of faith!

    It didn’t happen. It’s an early christian legend.

    Legend legend legend

    Compared to a fairy tale!

    I suppose you believe a tortoise actually raced a hare and won as well?

    Peter and John administered healing in the name of Jesus. Representing Jesus. Revealing Jesus.

    It is true. It is no fable. It is the basis for our ministry that we serve people with the gospel of Jesus, including healing and deliverance.

    But you not only cannot believe it takes place today. You also claim it was a legend then, that the Book of Acts is a myth.

    Well, well. I think I can safely rest my case.

  85. Well, God gave everyone a brain, Greg, believers, doubters, sinners, saints.

    Did you think it was your brain which would save you?

    Now, using your brain-power, you eliminate two more books from the canon. Just like that!

    The deeper we go into yours and Bones’ actual belief system the more we realise what you have replaced with your own intelligence at the expense of truth.

    You cannot believe for healing and deliverance because your brain cannot cope with anything but medical science, psychology and what is seen.

    You have said in your mind, “Holy Spirit, stay in the shadows so that I can understand what I see, and see what I know and not have to consider the seeming irrationality of the spiritual”.

    Yet, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen.

    That is not sensually rational, and yet it is spiritually logical, because it is based on what God has said and not what our eyes have seen.

    We are led by faith and not by sight.

    And so we ‘glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith–the salvation of your souls’.

    Having not seen, we believe. Having not seen we love.

    The essence of salvation. Believing without seeing.

    ‘While we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

    So Jesus tells Thomas, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    And you think that you can base your belief on what you have seen before, and not on what God has said?

    “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.”

    All those things Jesus has done when he walked the earth are attributed to His Church. Which is why Peter and John could offer healing to the man at the Gate Beautiful in the name of Jesus. “Such as we have we give unto you”. What did they have? The name of Jesus which heals. How was he healed? Through faith in he name of Jesus!

    And you, in your intelligence, in your brain-power, in your unbelief, call His Name, the Name of Jesus, no more than a legendary myth.

    I almost feel sorry for you.

  86. Rash judgments?

    Like, for instance, Luke’s accounts are legend not fact.

    Peter and John did not heal the man at the Gate Beautiful. It’s a legend, not a fact.

    They did not use the name of Jesus. It’s a legend not a fact.

    So you say. So you judge scripture.

    Which is very much on track, because, if you say the name of Jesus no longer heals, how could you accept a school which teaches that God still heals today, and still delivers the demon-possessed.

    In fact, I do believe you have stated on the past, along with Bones, that there are no such things as demons, so therefore there are no such people as those who are demon-possessed.

    These days, people are assessed according to Freud, and, as a cure, given a course of medication and a disability pension.

    Luke, of course, stated that Jesus went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil.

    Now this, according to your judgment, is a legend, the kind of legend which is dismissed as a myth.

    Why then would you accept any teaching which speaks of the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit operating through believers?

  87. Wnho here has prayed for a dead person at a funeral to come out of a coffin.

    Or at the morgue. Or at the scene of a death. No one?

    I think nearly everyone would be upset if that happened and think that behaviour was bizarre. People might believe they can resurrect the dead but they never act on that belief.

  88. Everyone judges scripture. I recall you saying some of the old testament wasnt inspired.

  89. Are you saying, with Greg, that Luke’s accounts are legend and not fact, Bones?

    Are you agreeing with Greg that Peter and John did not heal the man at the Gate Beautiful in the name of Jesus?

  90. Your rash judgement Steve, is to assume I have discounted or rejected the canon of scripture because I don’t believe something literally happened; for me the literalness if it has no bearing on the truth of it…remember the hare and the tortoise?

    You assume a high view of scripture means it is the best view of scripture and on that point my friend we are vehemently disagreed!

    You require things to be literal before you’ll accept them as truth…I just require it to be true.

    I hold the same standard if bill Johnson. If what he said was true I would accept it. It isn’t, so I don’t.

  91. Well, Greg, you have rejected, as a mythical legend, one of the most significant accounts in the New Testament, which begins a major revival in Jerusalem, an account which covers three chapters, at least, of the Book of Acts, including early persecution of the Apostles, one of the great gospel messages of Acts, one of the great gospel prayers of the New Testament, not to mention a significant healing which caught the attention of the whole of Jerusalem, including the Jewish Council, who admitted they could not deny the miracle, which confronted them all with the reality of the gospel, but sought to silence the disciples and forbid them to preach in the name of Jesus, which they resisted, resulting in massive growth of the Church in Jerusalem.

    And your rejection of this significant passage is based on your own unbelief, not on any Biblical evidence, or sound exegesis.

    No. You have not, in your life, seen anything which confirms the Apostle’s healing some 2000 years ago at the Beautiful gate, so you dismiss the account as a fable, even comparing it to the tale of the hare and tortoise.

    Any credibility you might have had as a critic of the ministry of the Holy Spirit is shot down by your own inability to believe God an and does work miracles at the hands of His Church.

  92. Greg,
    I am in no way a critic of the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

    Of course you are. And of the name of Jesus.

    You called his ministry a fairy tale.

    Can’t be more subtly critical than that.

  93. Greg,
    I am a critic of blind belief and stupidity.

    So if a person believes that what Luke wrote in the third, fourth and fifth chapters of Acts was an accurate account of what actually took place, they are, according to you, exhibiting ‘blind belief and stupidity’.

    I find that overwhelmingly arrogant, and disturbingly dismissive of the work of the Holy Spirit.

    Clearly the events portrayed in those chapters relate to a major move of the Spirit in Jerusalem. There is no hint that it is a fable or a mythical legend. It is a factual testimony which leads to subsequent events in the life of the early Church in that city.

    The fact that you can’t believe that the disciples of Jesus could in any way produce the same kinds of healings He did, when He expressly told them they would, and as a sign that He had sent the Holy Spirit to them to work through them, is the most telling evidence we have on this entire thread that you don’t have a clue what Pentecostal teachers have to say about the present day ministry of the Holy Spirit.

    I expect a lazy disdainful comeback from you which dismisses Pentecostal understanding of the post-resurrection work of the Holy Spirit in the Church, but you should know that your relegation of the passage to ‘legend, legend, legend’ actually makes you look rather stupid, although I’ll resist labelling you so.

    I can understand people having difficulty believing in healing, deliverance and especially miracles, especially if they are new to the Church, or unsaved, or, being in a cessationist cult, have been told that the manifestations of the Spirit have ended, but you have set yourself up as some kind of expert on the New Testament in relegating the work if the Holy Spirit amongst believers to the level of belief you can muster, which is nil.

    You turn out to be a critic of your own doubts and unbelief.

  94. Stop twisting my words Steve. I called one episode in the book if Luke a legend…not a fairy tale…a legend…totally different literary purposes. I did not call the name of Jesus or the ministry of the Holy Spirit a fairy tale. Please try to stay on track and not read into my words what you believe is there…funny, but that is exactly what you do with the words of the bible.

  95. If we can’t trust you to understand words that were written yesterday…and to you…how can you possibly expect to understand words written over 1900 years ago to a totally different person? Perhaps you should hand in your ministry credentials and go back to Sydney school to start learning all over again.

    Here’s a quick test.

    Did the sun really stand still? Well actually it never really moves…so did the world stop moving for half an hour…or is that a legend?

    Did a big fish really eat Jonah?

    Did the walls if Jericho really fall down after being marched around and having horns blast at them?

    Did Peter really kill Ananias and Sapphira?

    No all of these are legends Steve…they didn’t happen. They are told to perpetuate a particular understanding of God and God’s ways.

    Don’t twist my words.

  96. you have set yourself up as some kind of expert on the New Testament in relegating the work if the Holy Spirit amongst believers

    I have a pretty good understanding of the bible and the use of language, which you can’t seem to muster…’in relegation to’ what on earth does that even mean?

    I haven’t set myself up as some kind of expert…on this blog I offer my opinion…at church I get asked to teach…don’t set myself up…others recognise in me a gift.

  97. Sorry, I thought your comparison of the Luke 3 account to the hare and tortoise story was saying it was a fable, or fairy tale.

    So how do you reconcile the actual account in Luke 3, which is continued at least into the following chapters, with the context of the whole Book of Acts, because he way I read it it is integral to the entire progression of events.

    If it is a ‘legend’, and by ‘legend’ you mean a mythical account, then it means that there wads a serious revival in Jerusalem, whereby multitudes were added to the Church on the basis of a mere story, which, I would have thought, is a greater miracle than the actual healing which took place.

    I do not read anything into Scripture but what is written. In fact, you have accused me of being wrong for taking a literal view of Scripture. You can’t have it both ways.

    The truth is that I take Scripture on face value unless it is clearly prophetic, allegorical, typical or poetry, and this passage is none of these things, and has an historical element in that it reveals an incident which actually took place, and which led to a major move of the Spirit amongst the people of Jerusalem, influencing the whole of the city, including those who were opposed to the gospel, and who attempted to censor the Apostles because they could not deny the miracle took place, but did not want what they saw as a sect having an influence on the people.

    They tried to prohibit them from preaching in the name of Jesus.

    This is a significant account, Greg, because here is where they experienced persecution because of a miracle, and made a prayerful decision about how they were to proceed in defiance of the order to desist from preaching in the name of Jesus.

    It was a crossroads moment in the history of the Church.

    You cannot relegate it to a mythical legend.

    Even the Jewish Council knew it was a miracle and were unable, they said, to deny it. Yet you do deny it.

    And, therefore, you deny the work of the Holy Spirit.

  98. By ‘relegate’ I mean you diminish the work of the Holy Spirit.

    You say, by your denial of the miracle, that the Holy Spirit is incapable of working through the Apostles Peter and John, as the account reveals, producing a miracle of healing in the name of Jesus, and that this was merely a mythical legend, a made up story handed down by someone to Luke. A fable, in fact.

    But surely Luke, being the organised and rational physician he was, would have taken the time to discuss this event with Peter and John, or their peers, since they were present. The rest of the Apostles met, shortly after, for prayer, and asked God to work through the name of Jesus to bring healing wherever they went. It is highly probable that he heard the account directly form the Apostles.

    Now you are prepared to delve into other areas of the Bible to introduce other ‘legends’ you have trouble with, as if that confirms what you have said about Acts 3-6.

    I encourage you to read carefully through the passage from chapters 3 to 6 and you will see that if this is a mere mythical legend worked up by some unknown person in fable like fashion, then the whole of Jerusalem was duped.

  99. In denying the literal understanding of Luke, and in particular this passage at chapters 3-6, you are denying the work of the Holy Spirit.

    You can’t have it both ways. Either you believe that here was a dramatic healing of the lame man, as the account renders it, or you don’t.

    If you don’t believe the account, and claim it as a mythical legend, you deny the work of the Spirit in this passage.

    You also deny the power in the name of Jesu to bring healing, and this is the crux of the matter for this thread, because you are calling teaching which encourages believers in the work of the fulness of the gospel, which includes salvation, healing, deliverance and the prophetic gifts, bullshit!

    The fulness of the gospel. As Paul says, “I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient– in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” Romans 15:18-19

    If it is a mere legend, as you claim, then it did not take place, then the Bible has a passage which is misleading, because it is not qualified by Luke as a mythical legend, but as an actual account of a dramatic event which led to a surge in salvations in Jerusalem.

  100. You know, it’s so very convenient for you liberal theology types to use the ‘not literal’ card every time we evangelicals point out a passage which demonstrates a point we are making in a discussion.

    “Look, the Apostles healed someone in the name of Jesus” we say, “it’s an example for us o the power of the name and work of the Spirit”. “No”, you say, “That is a legend. It is not to be taken literally!”


    So, please explain, liberal ones, if this is not literal, what is the allegorical interpretation? You can’t just say, “I deny the literal understanding” of a crucial passage without then giving the allegorical interpretation.

    And how can anyone know what is literal and what isn’t? We can’t base what we read on your liberal interpretation of scripture. We already know you can’t believe in healing, deliverance and miracles as we read it in Scripture.

    On what basis could we ever build a competent training course for new believers if we do not know whether the ministry referred to in scripture is actually the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church, or a mythical legend, a mere fable, a story with a moral meaning, or, as Bones says about Revelation, an encouragement for persecuted saints.

    No wonder our seminaries turn out wishy washy preachers who don’t know whether God heals today or not, and have a dozen different angles to every passage of scripture, but noting on which to build a candidate’s faith.

    I’ve had those conversations with seminarians, who really do not have a clue what the Bible is talking about, and dare not even step out in faith and actually say they believe God is still the Healer and the Deliverer. Some even doubt He is the Saviour.

    I’m sorry, folks, but the Bible reveals that we believers, to be called believers, have to believe something! Yes, that’s right, the just shall live by faith.

    Faith! Faith in God. Faith what God says. Faith in what God has done and is doing through the Church under the leadership of His Own Holy Spirit, in the Name of Jesus!

    Come on!

  101. You exegesis is somewhat exaggerated, Greg, but you have to ask if there is any evidence that people have ever suddenly dropped dead.

    On the subject of healing of the lame man at the Beautiful gate, is there any Biblical evidence of the lame being able to walk in the name of Jesus?

  102. Steve –

    So, please explain, liberal ones, if this is not literal, what is the allegorical interpretation? You can’t just say, “I deny the literal understanding” of a crucial passage without then giving the allegorical interpretation.

    The alternative to literal is not always allegorical Steve – it is fair to say this about Luke – it s is agreat story in defense of Pauline apostleship – it is not a great story if your looking for historical facts – althugh there are many historical facts that are quite accurate – there are also many which aren’t. There are soties told which don;t math up to time lines that are known. FOr example the suposed speech by Gamiliel talking about theudas and Judas as leaders of revolts who were killed –

    34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35 Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

    This speech was supposedly delivered not more than a couple of years after the crucifixion – around 32 – 35 at the latest – only trouble is the dasy fo the census were areound 6 ad (when Judas suposedly led a revolt) and Josephus tells us that Thadeus actually led his revolt around 45 ad – so it hadn’t even happened yet at the time this speech was supposed to have been delivered. Plus “luke” had Gamaliel mix up which came first and who followed after.

    Both Luke and Acts are theological works desiged to get people to believe in Jesus and to accept the apostlehip and theology of Paul.

    That is thier p[urpose – not to tell us true history.

  103. You exegesis is somewhat exaggerated, Greg, but you have to ask if there is any evidence that people have ever suddenly dropped dead.

    So yes or no – Holy Spirit killed them?

  104. Read the passage, Greg, and come back with a better exegesis. But it is a diversion from our discussion on healing and deliverance in the New Testament.

    What you are saying is that, since the Book of Acts is the only other Biblical account of disciples following Jesus in healings, deliverance and miracles, if you can somehow eliminate this Book, and, by association, the Gospel of Luke, you can then safely, in your terms, claim that there is no evidence of healing outside of the ministry of Jesus in the Gospels.

    The way the liberal anti-scripture mafioso works is a wonder to behold.

  105. Acts 5:1-11

    Negative Example: Ananias and Sapphira

    This chilling account of the sudden deaths of Ananias (Hebrew, “the Lord is gracious”) and Sapphira (Aramaic, “beautiful”) makes us face the fact that God deals with sin, especially church members’ deceit and lack of integrity. If God acts to preserve the integrity of the community that the gospel produced, we can have increased confidence in the truthfulness of the message itself (Lk 1:4). That’s the good news for the inquirer. This narrative is bad news, though, for any who would take a casual approach to entering the kingdom of God.A Man Who Was Good to His Family (5:1-6)

    Living out their unity with the believers, Ananias and his wife Sapphira sold real estate (see 5:3), brought and placed money at the apostles’ feet. This action paralleled Barnabas’s (4:37), with one significant difference. In collusion with his wife, Ananias kept back part of the money for himself. Literally, he embezzled from the sale price. This is paralleled in the LXX report of Achan’s sin (Josh 7:1), in secular sources describing the pilfering of gold dedicated to the god Apollos (Athenaeus Deiporosophists 6.234) and in the keeping back of crops that had been declared common property in the Celtic tribe Vaccaei (Diodorus Siculus Library of History 5.34.3).

    Peter exposes the fraud. He knows the truth, whether by hearsay, reading Ananias’s face or Spirit-empowered insight. By asking Ananias why Satan has filled his heart for the purpose of lying to the Holy Spirit and embezzlement, Peter exposes the spiritual battle that is raging (compare Lk 4:1-13). Satan now attacks Christ’s mission from within as he had done through Judas and Peter (Lk 22:3, 31). The “father of lies” (Jn 8:44) starts in the heart, the source of all decisions concerning possessions and their relation to God (Lk 12:34; 16:14-15; Acts 8:21-22; contrast 2:46; 4:32). Ananias shows not simply a lack of honesty in bringing only a part of the sale price but also a lack of integrity–bringing only a part while pretending to bring the whole (Stott 1990:109).

    Peter now exposes Ananias’s full responsibility: he had full control over the property before it was sold, and over the sale price before he contributed any portion to the common fund (5:4). This statement can help us understand the arrangements of having all things in common (2:44; 4:32) and the practice of selling property and bringing the proceeds to the apostles as a contribution to a fund for the poor (4:34-37; compare 2:45), for it shows the voluntary, even periodic nature of the process. Peter again asks the piercing question “Why?” This sin, like all sin, is finally not against human beings but against God.

    But sin blinds us to the true nature of the offense: that our sin is against God. Sin also blinds us so that we choose short-term gains in this life, heedless of the long-term loss in the next (Lk 9:24-25). For Ananias it was the possibility of being praised for his generosity while keeping a secure nest egg for his wife (Hebrew ktubah, or dowry paid to a wife in the case of a unilateral divorce or at his death–see m. Ketubot; Derrett 1977:196).

    As Ananias listens to this expose (NIV’s when Ananias heard this does not do justice to the simultaneous action indicated by the present participle), suddenly he falls down and dies (exepsyxen, used primarily in accounts of death as a result of divine judgment–Acts 5:10; 12:23; Judg 4:21). God, the knower of all hearts, has assessed Ananias’s unrepentant heart and immediately judged him for his sin (contrast Acts 15:8).

    Such a punishment, “death at the hands of heaven,” was a recognized penalty in Old Testament and Jewish law. The punishments for partaking of the priestly tithe while ritually unclean and the strange fire of Nadab and Abihu are the closest parallels (Lev 10:1-7; 22:9; m. Keritot; Derrett 1977:197). No wonder great fear comes upon the Jewish Christian bystanders (compare Acts 5:11; 19:17).

    Such discipline certainly has its deterrent value. The hasty, unceremonious burial of Ananias shows the believers recognize that God’s judgment has fallen on one who by his embezzlement had violated the transparent unity of the Spirit-filled assembly (see Lev 10:6; Semahot 2:8). The young men (young in age, not office) cover his eyes and wrap his body in a shroud (synesteilan; the word systellontos, referring to a functionary related to burials, has been discovered on an inscription in a synagogue in Beth Shearim–see Safrai 1976:776). Without the traditional rituals of mourning, Ananias is taken outside the city and buried.Beautiful Conspirator (5:7-11)

    Three hours later Sapphira arrives. Luke, given his mention of her ignorance, probably intends us to understand Peter’s question to be about the agreed-upon false price, not the true price. Either way, his inquiry gives her an opportunity to confess or persist in her sin (compare Lk 22:48).

    In response, Peter again uses the penetrating “why” question. The NIV emphasizes Peter’s disbelief by phrasing it How could you . . . . He reveals his knowledge of the crime and points out its implications for their covenant relationship with God. In the wilderness the Israelites through their unbelief and murmuring against God were actually putting him to the test to see if he would indeed punish sin. At Kadesh Barnea they discovered that he does (Num 14:20-23; Ps 95:7-11; compare Deut 6:16). So Ananias and Sapphira learn that in this life God can, and when he chooses will, punish sinners either by immediate death or by some other means. This can happen to those who claim to be, and may truly be, a part of his covenant people, enjoy his salvation blessings and yet deliberately sin and remain unrepentant (1 Cor 5:5; 1 Jn 5:16-17).

    For Christians today this is still a temptation: to so luxuriate in the love and grace of God that we do not take seriously the consequences of our deliberate sinning. But God will not be mocked (Gal 6:7-8).

    In a prophecy and an effective judgment, but not a curse, Peter declares that the young men who buried Sapphira’s husband (the feet of points to their function as transporters of the dead) are at the door and will soon carry out another corpse–hers. Luke heightens the impact with the phrase at that moment (5:10).

    Thus Sapphira too experiences divine judgment by immediate death, and the believers again respond with dishonorable burial. The lack of reference to wrapping the body may reflect the Jewish custom that women could wrap both men and women, but men could wrap only men (Semahot 12:10).

    Great fear comes on the whole church. This is the first reference in Acts to the body of Christians as the “church” (ekklesia). This term, though used in secular Greek to describe citizen assemblies (compare Acts 19:32, 39), derives its special theological meaning from its use by the LXX to consistently translate the Hebrew qahal, the assembly or congregation of God’s people. For Christians to use this word to describe their corporate identity was to claim to be the true people of God, the rightful heirs of God’s promised salvation blessings. To find it at the climax of this passage only heightens the seriousness of Ananias and Sapphira’s sin and gives explicit justification for the severity of their punishment. And Luke lets us know that the dread extended to non-Christians as well.

    The message of this for Christian and non-Christian alike is self-evident. Christians must realize that the selfless, transparent fellowship of the church must never be violated by selfish hypocrisy. Further, it is proper to employ discipline to guard the church’s integrity, unity and purity. For the non-Christian, this account is a warning: Think twice before joining this holy fellowship. Are you willing to pay the price–fully renouncing wicked ways and full-heartedly embracing Christ and other believers in his body, the church?

  106. Such a punishment, “death at the hands of heaven,” was a recognized penalty in Old Testament and Jewish law.

    Aaah yes,the killer God.

    Now does God still go around killing people who steal from Him?

    If that was the case why aren’t all these prosperity pimps who prostitute the gospel dropping down dead.

    What child abuser ministers?

    Don’t see many of them dropping dead at the hands of heaven.

    Maybe God doesn’t see child abuse as bad as theft.

    Hell, it took Jim Jones to top himself after killing his own disciples.

    Just face it, that God isn’t around anymore.

    Can anyone give an actual account outside of this story (and the Old Testament – surprise, surprise) of God striking someone dead?

  107. Nice cut and paste Eyes…doesn’t sound much like what Jesus was on about to me. Grace, love,
    Forgiveness, righteousness before God…not law and death. Judgement because of not giving money that was theirs to give or not give? Please, how you literal types must squirm as you lock your brains up tight in boxes in order to love the God you so easily portray as a brutal slayer.

  108. ***If that was the case why aren’t all these prosperity pimps who prostitute the gospel dropping down dead.***

    Maybe they are not part of the correct church!

  109. ***If that was the case why aren’t all these prosperity pimps who prostitute the gospel dropping down dead.***

    A Time for Everything

    3 There is a time for everything,
    and a season for every activity under the heavens:
    2 a time to be born and a time to die,
    a time to plant and a time to uproot,
    3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
    a time to tear down and a time to build,
    4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
    a time to mourn and a time to dance,
    5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
    a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
    6 a time to search and a time to give up,
    a time to keep and a time to throw away,
    7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
    a time to be silent and a time to speak,
    8 a time to love and a time to hate,
    a time for war and a time for peace.
    9 What do workers gain from their toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on the human race. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet[a] no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live. 13 That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him.

    15 Whatever is has already been,
    and what will be has been before;
    and God will call the past to account.[b]
    16 And I saw something else under the sun:

    In the place of judgment—wickedness was there,
    in the place of justice—wickedness was there.
    17 I said to myself,

    “God will bring into judgment
    both the righteous and the wicked,
    for there will be a time for every activity,
    a time to judge every deed.”
    18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[c]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

    22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?

  110. ***Please, how you literal types must squirm as you lock your brains up tight in boxes in order to love the God you so easily portray as a brutal slayer.***

    Isaiah 11

    He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
    or decide by what he hears with his ears;
    4but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
    with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.

    He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
    with the breath of his lips he will slay((((SLAY)))) the wicked.

    5Righteousness will be his belt
    and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

  111. ***Not my own you’ll be pleased to hear.***

    Very pleased to hear,Greg,because you still have more time to repent.And that is Good.

  112. Can anyone give an actual account outside of this story (and the Old Testament – surprise, surprise) of God striking someone dead?

  113. Seriously though, I fully accept I could be wrong about the things I say…I’ve always thought I made that clear. I don’t believe there is a right way to read the bible… Just informed opinion.

  114. ***Can anyone give an actual account outside of this story (and the Old Testament – surprise, surprise) of God striking someone dead?***

    They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
    Revelation 20:9.

    A prophecy is an account,because God is not a liar.

  115. ***I don’t believe there is a right way to read the bible…Just informed opinion.***

    Just a note to yourself,that it is harder if you read it upside-down.

  116. ***So the only other account is a piece of fiction.***

    Sorry Bones,i almost forgot that you do not believe in the revelation of JESUS CHRIST.

  117. The Book of Revelation is not a futuristic account of anything.

    No matter how much you huff and puff.

    So we can safely say that God hasn’t struck anyone dead since Ananias and Sapphira.

  118. Bones,

    I do not need to apologise for Luther’s Anti-semitic rant at the end of his life. Luther didn’t kill the Jews, the Nazis did.

    The question is why many of the churches in Germany went along with it. They did so because they had no firm foundation. Higher-criticism hollowed out the faith of church-goers in Germany so they filled it with national socialism.

    The majority of fundamentalists criticised the nazis and paid for it.

    Pragmatism ruled, like it does today.

    Regarding the Bill Johnson stuff Greb and Steve, as usual are both right and wrong at the same time.

    1) The gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Apostles day included healing. The minute you say any reference to something that supposedly happened was a mere legend, you are stuck with where you stop.
    Virgin Birth? Bodily Resurrection? Atoning Sacrifice for Sin? Was there even a crucifixion?
    Where do you stop?

    Eventually you are left with a hollowed out, Love Wins deconstructed, Christless pragmatic movement that seeks to build community and reduce feelings of alienation. You end up with a movement that defines itself in ethnic or culteral lines … a volk-ish movement with some vague idea of a transcendent God … and a vision casting LEADER who imposes his will on the people.

    Good luck with that.

    2) Bill Johnson is a fake, trying to build faith through a pragmatic ‘lie’. A vision-casting LEADER who imposes his will … get it?

    They are all at it.

    Luther isn’t my hero. Anything which places a mere man in the place of Jesus is leading us away from Jesus.

    On the other hand, anything which undermines faith and trust in the Bible is clearly designed to undermine faith and trust the Jesus of the Bible.

    So, there it is. Anything involving FRESH-revelation is toxic. So, Liberals ignore the Bible, and Charismatics supercede or replace the Bible with new words from God.

    The church in the west is finished. If Jesus doesn’t come back this century, my Grandchildren will be introduced to a fake Jesus of one form or another.

    The ‘evangelical’ church in the US can’t tell the difference between Mormonism and authentic biblical christianity. Meanwhile Liberals don’t worry about doctrine or dogma. Anything goes.

    Do I sound depressed? Well, I am very depressed. I see no likely revival. The church has gone up it’s own backside.

    Arguments here are totally pointless. Either the truth of the historical record of the Bible is disputed or the truth of the fakery of ‘faith-healers’ is disputed because it’s an inconvenient truth …

  119. If its pointless why join us? You disappear for a year or 2 and when we asked you to hand over the reigns you refuse? Piss off bull, nothing you say has any weight.

  120. Greg … I stayed away because each post is difficult to get into once the responses get beyond 100. I was reluctant to give the admin rights to either you or Steve because you are verbally trying to cave each other’s chest in.

    If you think you are mature enough to not instantly ban Steve if I make you admin … oh … wait … you aren’t.

    Meanwhile, you won’t be happy to let Steve be admin either. Right?

  121. The question is why many of the churches in Germany went along with it.

    Here ya go.

    The Nazi regime [edit]
    Many Protestants voted for the Nazis in the elections of summer and fall 1932 and March 1933.
    The [Protestant] churches did not reject National Socialism on principle. The idea of a strong authority and a close bond between throne and altar, of the kind that existed in the empire between 1871 and 1918, was in keeping with Protestant tradition. Many … [Protestants] had reservations about the democratic Weimar Republic and sympathized with political forces – such as the German National People’s Party[11] – that idealized the past.[12]
    A limited number of Protestants, such as Barth, Bonhoeffer and Wilhelm Busch,[13][14] objected to the Nazis on moral and theological principles: they could not reconcile the Nazi state’s claim to total control over the person with the ultimate sovereignty that, in Christian orthodoxy, must belong only to God.[12]
    German Christians [edit]
    The German Christian movement in the Protestant Church developed in the late Weimar period.[15] They were, for the most part, a “group of fanatic Nazi Protestants”[16] who were organized in 1931 to help win elections of presbyters and synodals of the old-Prussian church (last free election on 13 November 1932). In general, the group’s political and religious motivations developed in response to the social and political tensions wrought by the end of World War I and the attendant substitution of a republican regime for the authoritarian one of Wilhelm II — much the same as the conditions leading to Hitler’s rise to power.
    The German Christian movement was sustained and encouraged by factors such as:
    the 400th anniversary (in 1917) of Martin Luther’s posting of the Ninety-Five Theses in 1517, an event which served to endorse German nationalism, to emphasize that Germany had a preferred place in the Protestant tradition, and to legitimize antisemitism. This was reinforced by the Luther Renaissance Movement of Professor Emmanuel Hirsch.[17]
    the revival of völkisch traditions
    the de-emphasis of the Old Testament in Protestant theology, and the removal of parts deemed as being “too Jewish”, replacing New Testament with dejudaized version titled Die Botschaft Gottes (The Message of God)[18]
    the respect for temporal (secular) authority, which had been emphasized by Luther and has arguable scriptural support (Romans 13)[19]
    The German Christians were sympathetic to the Nazi regime’s goal of “co-ordinating” the individual Protestant churches into a single and uniform Reich church, consistent with the Volk ethos and the Führerprinzip.

  122. By the way. This is from a member of the Confessing Church

    Nazism, fundamentalism

    Today, Red State Rabble linked to a rather frightening article published back in 2004:
    Dr. James Luther Adams, my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School, told us that when we were his age, he was then close to 80, we would all be fighting the “Christian fascists.”

    The warning, given to me 25 years ago, came at the moment Pat Robertson and other radio and televangelists began speaking about a new political religion that would direct its efforts at taking control of all institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government. Its stated goal was to use the United States to create a global, Christian empire. It was hard, at the time, to take such fantastic rhetoric seriously, especially given the buffoonish quality of those who expounded it. But Adams warned us against the blindness caused by intellectual snobbery. The Nazis, he said, were not going to return with swastikas and brown shirts. Their ideological inheritors had found a mask for fascism in the pages of the Bible.

    He was not a man to use the word fascist lightly. He was in Germany in 1935 and 1936 and worked with the underground anti-Nazi church, known as The Confessing Church, led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer…


  123. I’m not trying to cave Greg in, Bull. I’m trying to convert his thinking to accept what God says about things rather than liberal theologians who don’t believe anything.

    I don’t feel particularly threatened by Greg either. I think we’ve conducted the present debate in a passionate but largely civil fashion.

    Just because we disagree on some issues doesn’t mean we can’t agree on others.

    You need healing from that depression, old son. Maybe a good dose of the Word of Faith would get you back on your feet.

    Remember your first love!

    Bones won’t be able to benefit from the first love admonition because he doesn’t accept the literal inference in Revelation.

  124. Bull, what makes you think members of the Confessing Church were fundamentalists.

    They weren’t.

    Rudolf Bultmann, the most liberal theologian of the time and the ultimate in form criticism bible scholars was a member of the Confessing Church. Bultmann even questioned the historical value of the Gospels.

    He criticised Nazis including their treatment of Jews.

    Not quite sure where your fictional anti-Nazi fundamentalists were.

    Maybe they were in South Africa bringing about apartheid.

  125. I don’t consider Pat Robertson and the Radio and Televangelists as being either orthodox or fundamentalist. I think I have already made that point.

    Those fellas are heretical at best. The protestant germans who accepted fascism were not fundamentalists. That’s the point I was making before.

    Christian Fascists in the USA are same people who are dominionists. The NAR/Peter Wagner/Rick Joyner/Rick Warren/Todd Bentley et al are all driven by this seeker sensitive/vision casting Fuhrer Prinzip. (Leadership Principle)

    None of this is fandamentalism. None of this is Orthodox Christianity. My argument is that these fellas are operating not under Christian Theology but Fascist Ideology.

    What Liberal Theology did was to gut the church of its faith, making it possible for Fascism in germany to dominate the mainstream church.

    Nowadays, the Fascism is within a large part of the US mainstream church. It is coming from the dominionists. Liberal Theology has demolished seminaries so the American church is hollowed out. Pragmatism rules alongside the will of the leader.

    Dominionism = Christian Fascism.

  126. liberal theologians who don’t believe anything.

    Oh what a load of complete bollocks.

    You don’t believe like I do so you don’t believe anything.

    It’s the cultic mind that fears the intelligencia.

    The cultic mind of Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler.

    We know that fundamentalist Christians would like to do to Bible scholars what Pol Pot did to the educated class. (Or watch God do it for them)

  127. Sure Bull, the sky is falling.

    Remind me again how the witch and heretic burnings and apartheid were liberal Christian innovations.

    Remind me again how that fundamentalist Desmond Tutu gracefully led the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

    I think Bull’s part of the elect.

    The elect of one.

  128. So according to Bull we have a Liberal Christian Fascism and a Dominion Christian Fascism.

    How many more fascisms are there?

  129. they are both the same thing dude … but then, perhaps you are right.

    Maybe I am out here on my own. Maybe we all are.

    But you can’t have your cake and eat it. Either the Bible is true or it is all a lie. It can’t be half true. Which half do you want?

    Greg can have this gig.

    So long folks. It used to be fun.

  130. Stupid comments, Bones, and very provocative, as usual. As for the claims of fascism and comparisons to vicious dictatorships, there is no doubt whatsoever that both you and Bull have completely lost the plot.

    More conspiracy theories than Chirpy and Ian combined.

    The intelligentsia? What possible threat are they to believers?

    Liberal theologians tend to believe nothing but their own press because they talk themselves out of anything to do with the omnipotent, omnipresent omniscient God.

    Theirs is the humanistic demigod of natural reason and sight. The Bible is a mere instrument of antiquity they can find solace in wherever they find another allegorical passage of wisdom they can paganise.

  131. I mean, what do you actually have faith for, Bones and Greg?

    Do you actually believe anything the Bible says? Do you believe in anything miraculous which points to an omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent God?

    Do you even know why God sent Jesus into the world, why the Word was made flesh?

    Do you know anything about the work of the Holy Spirit?

  132. Dodgy move. Greg has already threatened to pull the pin. It’s only a matter of time. One bout of the black dog and this site is done for.

    Or, when you say ‘an’ admin, do you mean you retain overall control?

  133. Bones (in a fit of hysteria)
    We know that fundamentalist Christians would like to do to Bible scholars what Pol Pot did to the educated class. (Or watch God do it for them)

    You do? Can you present some evidence for this ridiculous claim?

    Authentic Christians seek to convert people from sinners to believers in Christ by every peaceful means, through the preaching of the gospel. They finance the publication of the gospel and mobilisation of saints into the harvest fields of the world, not of militancy.

    They bring healing, deliverance and salvation in the name of Jesus, not the murder, hatred and mayhem you falsely and wickedly propose.

    The reason we debate liberals like you, Greg and wazza is to show, by Biblical wisdom, logic and Scripture, the excellency of the authority and power of God, whereas you attempt to diminish the glory of God by deconstructing the truth in your watered down version of grace.

    But we don’t do so with force, or earthly weapons, or by physical threat, or even political means. We do so by the Word and Spirit. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but are mighty in God for pulling down strongholds – the logic and reasoning and arguments of the unbelieving false claimants of the crown.

    Your futile accusations and assumptions are an illustration of the depths you’ll sink to to plant an empty flag on the hill of your contempt for the gospel.

  134. Bull you are wrong dickhead! Give the admin rights to Steve I don’t care. As long as its someone with some interest in this site. My original email to you asked foe both of us to be joint admins. So go fuck yourself.

  135. Steve…I assure you that I will not ever liquidate this site. I said if I had the power to I would kill this site…however the power to is not just the ability to…

    However I n understand your concern and that is why I’ve asked bull consistently to make both of us admins.

  136. But we don’t do so with force, or earthly weapons, or by physical threat, or even political means. We do so by the Word and Spirit. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but are mighty in God for pulling down strongholds – the logic and reasoning and arguments of the unbelieving false claimants of the crown.

    That’s fancy spiritual fluff.

    Now use the weapons of your warfare and answer this.

    Is there a case outside of Ananias and Sapphira where God has struck someone dead?

    I can see the weapon of choice. To ignore or build up and burn a strawman maybe with some ad hominem attack as well.

  137. Either the Bible is true or it is all a lie.

    Glad to see that you set the ground rules on how to read the Bible. And if you want to read it like that then by your own reckoning it is a lie.

    If one skerrick of the Bible is wrong then it is a lie. Gee that’s a fairly precarious position you’re in. There’s cracks everywhere.

    If you had a brain you would realise they were 66 very different books, none of which fit into your post modernist mindset of black and white.

    Fundamentalism is Postmodernism. But the really crazy thing is that post-modernism is also the very thing that lets them preach against other people’s post-modern thought on a regular basis. Nothing could be more truly post-modern than that.

    Such is the mindset of fundamentalists that they can’t stand other fundamentalists. It’s not so bizarre because fundamentalism is all about being right.

    If you’re wrong, you’re out.

  138. The reason we debate liberals like you, Greg and wazza is to show, by Biblical wisdom, logic and Scripture, the excellency of the authority and power of God,

    So great defender of the Bible. Use your Biblical wisdom, logic and scripture and tell us why God doesn’t go around offing Christians like He supposedly did in Acts.

    You can’t even blame the Law on that one.

    It obviously didn’t happen.

  139. Bons,
    Fundamentalism is Postmodernism.

    Nonsense statement. The only deconstruction taking place is in liberal theology, which strips out Scripture and explains away miracles. The trait of anti-christians is to lie about Christians.

    You have a habit of fabricating arguments you claim we make which we do not, and making assertions about us we do not hold to. This way you can argue against yourself thinking you argue against your target group.


    Again you take one small incident and apply it to the whole Bible, and to any argument anyone who is a Bible believing Christian might have.

    What you mean is that you can’t believe it happened because it doesn’t fit your universalist liberal theology.


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