Sheikh, rattle and roll

From the ABC News.

Bilal Khazal at Al Risalah
Former Qantas baggage handler Bilal Khazal, preaching at the Al Risalah bookstore, before being jailed for producing a do-it-yourself terrorism book.

A 7.30 investigation has uncovered a secretive and radical program operating inside an Islamic book store in western Sydney, which is encouraging young Muslims to fight in Syria.

The concerns of authorities have been heightened by the bloody conflict in Syria, which has become a magnet and a new training ground for militants around the world, including Australians.

ASIO has estimated around 100 Australians could be currently fighting in Syria.

Four Australians have so far died in the conflict. Questions have been asked as to whether they were providing humanitarian relief or if they were also fighting at the front line against the brutal Assad regime.

Their families maintain they weren’t fighting and were there to aid the humanitarian effort by helping the maimed and wounded, including women and children caught in the crossfire.

Since it opened just over a year ago, the Al Risalah bookstore has gained a reputation as a centre of Islamic extremism.

Community leaders like Jamal Dahoud are concerned about what is taking place.

“The Al Risalah bookstore especially is very secretive, very secret,” he said. “They conduct their business in a very secret way.

“I tried to explore who is behind this group – we can’t.”

7.30 has been investigating Al Risalah’s activities and the people behind it, identifying four key sheikhs.

All are radical and all are encouraging Australians to get involved in the Syrian crisis.

The most famous of the sheikhs is Abu Suhaib, known to authorities as Bilal Khazal (pictured above).

Khazal is a former baggage handler for Qantas, trained at a military camp in Afghanistan, and was a confidant of Osama Bin Laden.

He was lecturing at Al Risalah in 2012 until he was convicted and sentenced to nine years in jail for producing a do-it-yourself terrorism book.

The possibility that militant sheikhs are radicalising youth at home – before they go to Syria – has Australian authorities on high alert.

The head of the New South Wales Police counter-terrorism unit told 7.30 they are aware of Al Risalah.

“I am aware of some of activities that go on there and some of the individuals involved,” said Deputy Commissioner Nick Kaldas.

He said federal authorities are “very much involved in some of the issues” raised by 7.30.

“It’s a matter of us sitting down with our colleagues in the federal sphere and then working out where we go from there, but there has to be tangible evidence and it has to be available to the police,” he said.

Deputy Commissioner Kaldas said it is “not advisable” to encourage people to partake in the Syrian war.

“Sending people into a war zone is something that’s quite heartless and quite selfish,” he said.

“I have to say for someone to be advocating for someone to go and fight in a war but are not prepared to do it themselves tells me something about those who are advocating that.”

Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus says Australians fighting in Syria could be breaking at least three laws, including the Foreign Incursions Act, which makes it an offence for Australians to participate in this kind of civil war.

Mr Dreyfus also holds concerns that Australians would return from the conflict having been further radicalised.

“Clearly there is a radicalisation that’s involved in wanting to participate in this military and violent activity,” he said.

“There is a concern before people go, but there is also a concern when they return – as the director-general of ASIO has spoken about.

“If you’ve gone to Syria, participated in the conflict there – particularly with a terrorist group – and then returned to Australia, it’s likely you’ll return with terrorist ideology [and] with more knowledge.”


60 thoughts on “Sheikh, rattle and roll

  1. Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus says Australians fighting in Syria could be breaking at least three laws, including the Foreign Incursions Act, which makes it an offence for Australians to participate in this kind of civil war.

    Maybe they need to join up.

    We might be over there next helping Al Qaeda out.

    US Prepares War with Syria as Washington backed Al Qaeda Rebels Lose Ground

    Calls for a war with Syria mounted yesterday, despite mass popular opposition to war in the United States, amid reports that US-backed Islamist opposition forces fighting the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad have suffered serious reverses.

    Speaking on NBC News yesterday, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan pressed for Washington to take military action against Syria.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-prepares-war-with-syria-as-washington-backed-al-qaeda-rebels-lose-ground/5334587

  2. Are you serious, Bones? Do you even check your sources? Or do they reflect your view anyway?

  3. Obama: U.S Will Increase Support For Al Qaeda-Linked Syria Rebels

    – President Barack Obama says the U.S. and Qatar will continue to work on more support for the Syrian opposition in the coming months.

    His remarks come after Secretary of State John Kerry said Sunday that the U.S. will double its nonlethal assistance to the opposition. That’s an additional $123 million in supplies that could include armored vehicles, body armor and night vision goggles.

    What’s up Steve?

    Don’t you support US and Israel’s allies?

  4. Great to see Steve back.

    This bookstore is a problem isn’t it. I’m glad I don’t live anywhere near a large population of Muslims.

  5. If the US is backing the insurgents, and some are being recruited in Oz, an Ally of the Evil Empire, I mean Rome, I mean America, Canada, Britain, and much of Europe, then obviously any concerns over the bookstore are probably window dressing – besides, would it suit the Govt’s of Oz and US etc to see radicalized young men go off to fight their wars for them and hopefully die in the process, killing two birds so to speak? And what about the comment of the assistant commissioner of Police for NSW –

    “Sending people into a war zone is something that’s quite heartless and quite selfish,” he said.

    “I have to say for someone to be advocating for someone to go and fight in a war but are not prepared to do it themselves tells me something about those who are advocating that.”

    My God, I could not have said it better myself – but who is he talking about? Funny how the rationale is subject to the circumstances – when it is time to send real Ozzie soldiers to die in the Empire’s dirty little wars of plunder, I bet the commissioner will be on the dock waving goodbye with the other women…

    And perhaps the reason why the reasonable Muslims cannot penetrate the veil of secrecy over the bookstore is the same reason why the FBI and MI6 are behind much of the recruiting scams?

    Perhaps the hardest part for us God blessed white folks in the West to comprehend is that our wealth largely derives from the willful, militaristic plunder of other peoples and nations. Nice white folk herded the ancient inhabitants of Tasmania over cliffs into the sea and then unceremoniously stole their land. They hunted Abos like animals in mainland Oz. The history of the Jewish & White (JAW) conquest of the British Empire is riddled with crimes against humanity of the most perfidious nature, yet we still see ourselves as the good guys by and large.

    It is when you wake up to the fact that you are one of the baddies that you get saved, and especially awaken to the fact that there is no such thing as Christian nation, there is just the world and then there is the kingdom of God.

    Bones, I am with you on this one – if Syria was not the best means by which the Iraqi oil will reach Europe, and also the home of the purest strain of Christian faith on the planet, then they would have been left in peace. If Q and Steve cannot see that we are involved in a war against sovereign nations to plunder their resources then I think they should watch this little comedic gem. The last remaining free countries are being knocked off one by one – the real prize is control of the Central Banks so that all the world’s banks will be under the auspices of the Rothschild family and their friends. And then it is game over – the monopoly of Banking and Commerce and Government is complete.

  6. That was a fun clip Ian. And, I think Hitler was a bad guy.
    So did a lot of Poles, Jews, French, etc etc.
    I’m just glad that they never had the internet and blogs in WW2 because no doubt you and Bones would have been convincing everyone that the Americans, British, French and Jews were the bad guys.

  7. I’m not advocating anyone go to Syria by the way.

    Also, I didn’t steal anyone’s land. I don’t think a 20 yr old Japanese, or German has to apologize for anything either, but if Bones wants to give his house back to the Aborigines (we don’t call them abos here), and if you’d like to give all profits of your business to the Maoris I won’t stop you. You can even get on a boat and leave NZ to it’s original inhabitants if you like.
    BonVoyage.

  8. An apology isn’t good enough it seems. How about the Murrawarri Republic?

    I don’t see any good guys in Syria. I don’t know enough about it, so I won’t be going there, and I won’t be telling anyone else to go. I think the govt of Syria are thugs. But the guys who take over might be worse.

    Unless they come to Jesus, it’s probably better to stay out of their way.

    I don’t think western countries have to sort out everyone’s problems. Otherwise we would be everywhere now.

    PS If the Japanese and German young people want to apologize for things their grandparents did, I’m fine with that.

  9. “And perhaps the reason why the reasonable Muslims cannot penetrate the veil of secrecy over the bookstore is the same reason why the FBI and MI6 are behind much of the recruiting scams?”

    You should go write for globalresearch.ca

    In other news, the Boston Marathon bomber is claiming innocence. He was framed you see. He and his mother said so.

    Ian and Bones look at each other “To the batcave!”

    batcave is codeword for globalresearch.ca, or whatreallyhappened.com etc etc.

    Ian, you do much better when you just pray and talk to Jesus. But when you start reading crazy conspiracy websites you just go batty.

  10. The Middle-East is becoming a civil war zone between shiite and sunni. That is reflected in most conflicts there.

    The morality of it is so obscure no one really knows who is who. Quoting from far left opinion sites isn’t helpful.

    The main reason for posting this is to discuss whether Australian Muslims should engage in a civil war in another country, and what role the recruiting preachers have in this process. If these young men learn the art of war and return to Australia will they then recruit locals and radicalise them for action here?

  11. Added to this is the immense cost of gathering intel and observing potential radicals returning from such conflicts.

  12. ”If these young men learn the art of war and return to Australia will they then recruit locals and radicalise them for action here?”

    it’s definitely a worry. I’d say there’s more chance of them being more radicalized than more moderate and peaceful.

  13. Perhaps as many as half a million Iraqi Christians Assyrians are thought to have fled the sectarian fighting in Iraq, with Christians bearing the brunt of animosity toward a perceived “crusade” by the United States in Iraq. Most chose to go to Syria due to the cultural similarities between the two countries, Syria’s open-door policy to Iraqis, and the large population of Assyrians and other Christians in the country which perhaps totals as high as 2 million. The large influx of Iraqis may tip the demographic scale in a country with a diverse population.[21][22] Although Christians represent less than 5% of the total Iraqi population, they make up 40% of the refugees now living in nearby countries, according to U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees.[23] Between October 2003 and March 2005 alone, 36% of 700,000 Iraqis who fled to Syria were Assyrians and other Christians, judging from a sample of those registering for asylum on political or religious grounds.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_Iraq

  14. You guys dont give a shi-ite about Muslims, but maybe you will about Christians

    In 2012 -13, as a Syrian civil war intensified, many Iraqi refugees fled the rising violence. Fewer than 200,000 Iraqis remained in Syria in 2012, according to the office of the Iraqi ambassador in Damascus. . Tens of thousands of Iraqi families traveled back to their origional country, although Iraq is itself unstable, and sectarian bomb attacks occur there almost daily.

  15. Yes, I do care about Christians. They are being persecuted In Syria, Iraq, Iran, etc etc. Anywhere there are Muslims. And there’s the problem. Often they aren’t outright slaughtered in Muslim countries where there is a thug dictator. They are just persecuted and denied rights. Oust the dictator, and then it is uncontrolled persecution.

    Yes, I care about Christians. Want me to tell you about how they have been raped and murdered by Muslims all over the world? How long do you have Wazza?

    They aren’t killed in Saudi Arabia. Great. But they aren’t given the same rights either and the other days someone was given lashes for the crime of evangelizing. But, I have no doubt that if the regime fell in Saudi Arabia, things would get worse. So perhaps Muslim countries need strong arm dictators so that Christians are only oppressed and not slaughtered. If that’s your thesis, I’m not sure I can disagree.

    So, how you can you help the Christians not get killed by the Muslims in Iraq, and the Muslims killing each other in Iraq.

    Still waiting…

    and waiting.

    And I care a lot about the shiites. I hope and pray they turn to Jesus and find truth, and peace. Real peace.

  16. @Steve. Bones does indeed check his sources. He loves a particular source called global research.ca
    Read some of the articles there, and decide if you think The Centre for Research on Globalization is going to be objective research. It’s pretty amazing reading. But that’s no surprise when you know about the founder Professor Chossudovsky.

    That’s why I’m tempted to walk away from the internet. You realize that it’s just been taken over by not just left-wing, but extreme left-wing people. They all have their websites and their organizations and quote each other and congratulate each other. And lemmings take it all in uncritically.

    If you want to spend time at global research.ca be warned that you’ll have to wade through conspiracies, questioning of Holocaust numbers, and basically the old story about how the Jews run the US and how America is trying to take over the world and how North Korea is misunderstood, and …well, you get the picture.
    But at least you will understand Bones and even Ian Williams better.

    But here’s my conclusion. Basically, Christians haven’t been as active as they could have on the net. And older people haven’t either. Which means that when young people even from teenage start reading up on politics and the issues of the day, they see extreme left-wing views everywhere because they are madly being copied and pasted all over the place. Basically the same articles. So they can start off written by a crackpot, and then posted around everywhere until even people who should know better are pasting madness from the latest global (these guys love the word “global”) “research” center.

    So, don’t leave. I’m going to try to ditch the sarcasm and just keep posting truth. It’s hard because it’s
    easy to get exasperated and angered by the garbage spread around by crazy people.

    One of the great ironies is that people keep trying to talk about Fox News as a biased rightwing source.
    The extreme left has nothing on those guys. (Remember – global research.ca sees themselves as provideing the “research” that the mainstream media doesn’t.) So to them, CNN, CBN and just about everyone who doesn’t give credence to their crackpot ideas as rightwing.

    Even poor old Obama gets it over there. If only he knew that the extreme left considers HIM to be a bigger threat than radical Muslims.

    Wow.

    I’m learning too much about the dark side….

  17. Wazza, thankfully we still have the West, with its secular democratic standards and advanced technological knowhow, to help protect the rest of the world from what would otherwise be a cataclysmic scenario under sharia enforcing caliphates.

    You seek to blame the coalition forces and US policy for Iraqi violence when it is clear that Saddam was only able to contain it by extreme force and a massive army and secret service, which created an unrealistic view of that country’s religious tensions.

    What we are seeing now isn’t the democratic or Christian population violently causing mayhem. No. We see the forces of a certain aggressive religion flexing its cowardly and inhuman muscle, driving them out and attempting to oppress the peace-loving moderates.

    I don’t suppose you can guess which religion the oppressors claim to be part of, can you?

  18. I don’t suppose you can guess which religion the oppressors claim to be part of, can you?

    Umm can we guess which countries are supporting this religious movement?

    Lol if you think the US gives a f**k about Christian Arabs.

  19. You realize that it’s just been taken over by not just left-wing, but extreme left-wing people.

    If being left wing means you point out the hypocrisies of government, media and Christians supporting a supposed war against an extremist terrorist organisation and then supporting that organisation then go for it.

    I don’t hump anyone’s leg.

    Violence is evil.

    Jesus said it.

    Christians however can make excuses for invading Iraq and ignoring the words of Jesus.

    Better concentrate on the gay issue lads. You can take the Bible seriously on that.

  20. I think you’ve got your bitterness lozenges confused there, Bones.

    Jesus also said it was just as evil to hate as it is to murder, yet you seem well prepared to spread the hate at every opportunity.

    I deplore war, love Muslims, and preach peace, but I also look at the complexities of what is happening in the world on a secular and religious level and make value assessments of what is taking place. I’m aware. Awake.

    If anyone were to listen to your ramblings they’d think you were the sole representative of reason, when, in fact, you spend most of your time levelling unsubstantiated allegations at people for simply discussing very volatile contemporary events, and digging up unreasonable claims for extreme and dangerously exaggerated articles by ultra left wing organisations.

    Invading Iraq was a terrible thing to do, but ultimately inevitable given the pattern of events attributable to Saddam’s regime and empirical ambitions. I make no excuses for it. It happened. The opposition to it was less on humanitarian grounds, however, and more on political grounds and based on a fear of reprisals, which is never a good reason to back down to bullies when you have the force to end their reign of terror.

    And here you are going on about the reprisals taking place and fearing for your own safety, like all other white feather bearers, rather than seeking a solution which protects Arab Christians from the terror of islamic militants. You want to lay blame at the feet of, arguably, the only nation on earth, other than Israel, with the firepower, will and resolve to help them.

    Your misguided hatred of the US an Israel works as much against the words of Christ as your extraordinary claims that stopping oppressors like Saddam is wrong. Saddam lived by the sword. The means of his end was inevitable.

    And sometimes God commissions armies to perform justice. Even Israel was not exempt from this.

  21. And make no bones about it, Saddam’s regime was the ultimate terror, where he held an entire nation in the palm of his hand, much like Assad today, not knowing if they would be the next to receive a visit from Chemical Ally or one of the other siblings in he middle of the night. He was so powerful he kept he sunnis and shiites from each other’s throats, but he tensions simmered.

    If a Shiite warlord had risen to challenge him there would have been a civil war of epic proportions, but he never allowed them to rise up or develop a following. He cut them off at the head, literally.

    There are different degrees of terror, Bones, and his was certainly advanced to such an extent that he had designs on invasion of the oil rich nations around him, and had already started the process.

    So don’t pretend Saddam was some poor innocent benevolent dictator. The blood on his hands was inestimable.

  22. And why are you so surprised that the Middle East and Israel are the spark for so many firestorms when the Bible has been telling us that it would be so for centuries.

    Oh, I forgot. You say every event in the Bible has been fulfilled! Yeah. Right!

  23. “Violence is evil.”

    I hate the violence going on as much as you. 9/11, Bail, London, Spain, Boston Marathon, the beheadings, Nigeria, Iraq. Do you have an answer for how to stop the Muslims bombing each others mosques?
    Wazza hasn’t got back to me yet.

    violence is evil. Depends. I hope it would:t ever happen but I’d use violence to stop someone killing my family. I’d be sorry that it had to happen, and I wouldn’t get people to video it or be proud of it.

    Left-wing doesn’t bother me, but your people over there at global research are left of left.

    hey, do they have any good research over there about what happened to the billions of dollars Arafat got in aid for the poor people of Palestine? the mainstream media wasn’t too concerned so I imagine those noble crusaders at global research are hopping mad about it.

    Aren’t they?

    Oh I see, they’ll wait till they convince everyone that Osama wasn’t killed by the Seal Team. Man, that Obama! So Bones, why doesn’t the US just get this HAARP thing going and take out Syria with an earthquake? You and Ian and the “researchers” get back to me on that one.

    “Better concentrate on the gay issue lads.”

    I’m not interested in the gay issue. But if it comes up again, I’ll respond. Forgive me, but the Boston Marathon bombings, and the beheading in London, the Swedish riots, and the bad news about Shunnis and Shiites distracted me. If only western people put the same energy into trying to stop Muslim violence as they do on legalizing gay marriage, there’d be more people alive.

    “Violence is evil.”
    So, you are a complete pacifist right? You think that any Christian who fought in WW2 was evil and sinning?
    Fair enough – I understand that viewpoint.

    Just make sure you are consistent. I’d like to hear more condemnation of Muslim violence. I’m sure you are against it – I just don’t hear you talk about it much. Anyway, you been demonstrating against Obama much lately? Go get em tiger!

  24. “And perhaps the reason why the reasonable Muslims cannot penetrate the veil of secrecy over the bookstore is the same reason why the FBI and MI6 are behind much of the recruiting scams?”

    Because the bookstore is run by FBI and MI6??? Not Mossad?

    “Perhaps the hardest part for us God blessed white folks in the West to comprehend is that our wealth largely derives from the willful, militaristic plunder of other peoples and nations.”

    I think lots of people realize that. So, are you white people in NZ going to give it back?
    The whites, Asians, Muslims in Australia should give Australia back?
    I think you should start with your assets.

    “Nice white folk herded the ancient inhabitants of Tasmania over cliffs into the sea and then unceremoniously stole their land. They hunted Abos like animals in mainland Oz. ”

    I think that was terrible. Most people do. So……oh I see. White people in Australia should realize that people in Tasmania were cruel and……jump off cliffs? Give Tasmania back? Decide that Muslim migrants can do and say whatever they want? Offer to be beheaded? Ian, I think most people realize that terrible things happened in the past. I honestly don’t think Syria has anything to do with Tasmania.

    “The history of the Jewish & White (JAW) conquest of the British Empire is riddled with crimes against humanity of the most perfidious nature, yet we still see ourselves as the good guys by and large.”

    People see that strong western powers took over lands from natives in the era of colonization. They realize that Spain and Portugal and France, and whoever could did the same. I’m not sure you can argue that the British were worse than the French. But if you insist, then maybe you and Bones and Wazza can give you land and property back. Go ahead.

    “It is when you wake up to the fact that you are one of the baddies that you get saved, and especially awaken to the fact that there is no such thing as Christian nation, there is just the world and then there is the kingdom of God.”

    I really like that. I’m bad. I was a sinner. And I believe that Jesus came to save sinners of which I am chief. So, now I’m saved. I don’t think the US or Australia is the Body of Christ or the Kingdom of God. I feel more kinship with Christians who are persecuted and beheaded for their faith than I do with Australians who mock God and revel in sin. I’m all for the Kingdom of God.

    And, I’m concerned about militant Muslim terrorists and hope that at the very least they would stop bombing and beheading people, but ideally come to know Jesus. And I’m thankful that I don’t live in a Muslim enclave where there are riots or near to the bookstore Steve wrote about. And I pray that militant Muslims in Australia don’t make use of Khazal’s do it yourself terrorism manual.

    Not only that, but I’m glad he isn’t still handling luggage for Qantas. Should I repent of that?

  25. For some reason, I find it ironic and humorous that Bones and Ian share “research” sources….

  26. Q,
    Not only that, but I’m glad he isn’t still handling luggage for Qantas. Should I repent of that?

    Definitely, Q. There are connotations in your statement. Surely he must have followed policies and procedures and forgotten any religious associations as a fair minded and justice seeking Muslim when he worked for Qantas. He only preached hate on Friday evenings.

    It’s always safer to fly Emirates, anyway! Or do I need to repent too?

  27. @Steve

    Look, I think we just have to be prepared for an onslaught of every wacky conspiracy going if we have to argue with the brilliant people at globalresearch.ca (Bones goto research center…).

    Did you know that the Boston Marathon bombers were set up? Yep. They even quoted some guy from the Russian Special Forces – so he would know…

    “Russian ‘Alpha’ Special Forces team-veteran and vice-president of its International Association, Aleksey Filatov, believes there is more to the case than meets the eye. He emphasizes, firstly, that the origin and religious beliefs of the suspect, along with the specifics of the bombing, have all been carefully pre-meditated and planned by someone within the United States in order to distract the public from the true identity and long-term aims of the actual planners.
    “Putting a young Chechen in those shoes was top-notch professionalism in distracting everyone from the true identity and motives of the planner,” he told RT.
    “The executors were chosen to confuse the American public and simultaneously untie the White House’s hands in a way that would justify a departure from the rhetoric of non-involvement in military action on foreign territories.”

    There you go. Whew. Hard nosed journalism with cutting edge research methods. Obama’s worse than Bush!!!

    Note the author of the article too.

    His name? “Russia Today!”

    So, I wouldn’t bother trying to refute or take seriously everything Bones posts, or you’ll go crazy.

    Did you notice that Bones rhymes with Alex Jones? Something there maybe?

    Some liberal Christians can’t bring themselves to believe much about the bible, but become complete lemmings when people start hating on the US and Israel.

    Good night friends.

    Back to the Bible. Instead of confusion, it will be a lamp to your feet.

    And Bones, yes, you are right in assuming I won’t be that impressed with your next quote from GR. 🙂

  28. I know, @. I read some of that stuff! I think the Canadians are getting off on some funny weed or something.

  29. @ of course was me. Probably spilled coffee after reading the nonsense at globalresearch.
    For another doozey… the US knew all about the 2004 tsunami, and just made themselves look good by coming to the rescue….

    @Steve, yep there are some crazy Canadian academics.

  30. @Q “Wazza hasnt got back to me yet”

    The Question is “Do you have an answer for how to stop the Muslims bombing each others mosques?”

    The question is based on an invalid premise. We are not responsible for preventing criminal activity in other countries. It would be like the Iraqi’s saying “How do we stop the gang violence in New York?”

    But one way that Middle-east violence could be reduced is to not bomb their cities and towns. We know that because of the assessments carried out by the Intelligence agencies. The Iraq war has created a humanitarian refugee crisis with over a million refugees fleeing to Syria – half of them Christians because the Muslims see them as allied to the Christian West – the “Crusaders”. Besides that the war has created a readjustment of the power-balance between Sunni and Shia and emboldened Iran and Syria so that the whole Middle east is starting to boil over. The US has the tiger by the tail and can’t afford to let go, but also cant afford to keep going unless they get a new credit-card advance from China.

    But you know all this don’t you because you read Jesus’ words in the book of Matthew “.. for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.”

    It says “all”. Oh, that’s right you re-interpret the word all to mean only a few – like on that other thread about salvation. And the verse dosent apply to the US because they use drones, only applies to backward peoples like the Taliban who use swords.

  31. You think that any Christian who fought in WW2 was evil and sinning?

    Yep violence is sinful and evil. Even in self defence.

    I know that’s hard for biblical literalists to understand. I mean invading Iraq was not unlike the fabled biblical conquests of Joshua. And yeah cutting off Goliath’s head is a cool kid’s story as well as the dude that gets the tent peg through his head.

    Maybe you can talk to returned servicemen and ask if they enjoyed killing the enemy.

    My wife’s uncle was in Z Special Force, won an MBE and Military Cross for working behind the lines in Tarakan. He did all sorts of crazy shit The few times he talked about the war he revealed the horrors of what he had to such as working with natives who beheaded captured Japanese and kept their heads as souvenirs.

    Now you can whitewash and laugh at Jesus’s words however you want. But there’s a reason why killing the enemy has a profound effect on soldiers. Why they live with guilt and nightmares. There’s something ingrained in most of us that says killing another human being is wrong. Those who don’t see it as wrong are normally at the pathological end or they can justify it for other reasons (religion, nationalism)

    We see what Jesus was talking about in our ‘just wars’. Those who live by the sword….

    The battle of the Somme anyone….

    Gallipoli….

    Passchendaele….

    Dresden….

    Stalingrad….

    Berlin….

    Iwo Jima….

    Vietnam…

    We see soldiers reduced to acting like animals.

    No sin in that. It was for a good cause. Jesus wouldn’t mind at all.

    But maybe you think they should be laughing as they kill the enemy like a video game.

  32. Oh, I forgot. You say every event in the Bible has been fulfilled! Yeah. Right!

    No such thing as prophecy which foretells future events, eh, Bones!

    No and nope. Some of those events will never happen or had happened when written such as the sacking of Damascas.

    I say your understanding of prophecy and the Bible is feeble at best.

    Get back to me why you think Jesus is wrong about violence but Paul is right about gays.

  33. The FBI use paid “informants” to entrap Muslims into talking about and planning bomb-plots.

    The undercover FBI informant – a convicted forger named Craig Monteilh – then drove off for 5 a.m. prayers at the Islamic Center of Irvine, where he says he spied on dozens of worshipers in a quest for potential terrorists.

    In the Irvine case, Monteilh’s mission as an informant backfired. Muslims were so alarmed by his talk of violent jihad that they obtained a restraining order against him.

    He had helped build a terrorism-related case against a mosque member, but that also collapsed. The Justice Department recently took the extraordinary step of dropping charges against the worshiper, who Monteilh had caught on tape agreeing to blow up buildings, law enforcement officials said. Prosecutors had portrayed the man as a dire threat.
    ….
    The community feels betrayed,” said Shakeel Syed, executive director of the Islamic Shura Council of Southern California, an umbrella group of more than 75 mosques.

    The FBI creates the crimes, solves them and then trumpets the result to world. “See, we are keeping you safe” It’s a bit like my Labrador – every time I come home, she suddenly pricks up her ears, barks and chases off an imaginary attacker – “You need me to protect you.”

    Unfortunately young unsuspecting Muslims pay the price for their job-justification. It’s a price the FBI is willing to pay.

  34. @Bones and Wazza.

    Liked both of your posts. Won’t be able to reply for a while, but thanks for the really tough but civil punches.

    If possible I’d like someone to write a post about pacifism. Bones, I’m wondering if you think violence is evil when protecting others also. Ie Can we never shoot or punch to protect an innocent person from being killed or injured.

    Before I get back let me say that I know about the effect of war on people. I know a lot of military people from different countries and know people with direct experience of the horrors of WW2 – from POWs to kamikaze pilots and those who were there at Hiroshima.

    Ok – got to run. But again I enjoyed those posts and will be thinking about them

  35. Bones, I’m wondering if you think violence is evil when protecting others also.

    The other night I had some nutter around my house going through my car.

    I armed mysef with a big knife and cricket bat and chased the bastard away.

    Was that a sin? I think so.

    But I sin. A lot. And sometimes I enjoy it.

  36. So do you think it’s acceptable for sheikhs to recruit Australian Muslims to fight in Syria? Or to produce manuals on terrorism? Is it enough to imprison them where they have access to other men they can radicalise whilst incarcerated, or should they have their Auatralian passport removed, all Government or State financial benefits taken away, and be deported to the country of their origin or, if born in Australia of migrants, the origin of their forbears?

  37. No. They should not be deported so they can spew their poison somewhere else.

    Lock the bastards up in solitary confinement I say.

  38. It is as acceptable to recruit Australian Muslims to fight in Syria as it is to recruit Aussie Christians or Agnostics to fight in Afghanistan.

    “Sending people into a war-zone is something that is quite heartless and quite selfish”

    Brilliant observation. Does it only apply to people we disagree with, or does it also apply to Julia and Barrack?

    And the bit about sending people back to where their parents came from. A bit radical, surely? Im sure that terrorists dont use bookshops and manuals as their principle means of communication anymore. Hint :google “how to make a bomb”. (Note to Steve, thats not meant to be taken literally. Its a figure of speech, meant to illustrate a point. A lot of authors do this. Look it up)

  39. I’m going to remove those comments, Ian, because they are so out there and nothing to do with he thread whatsoever that they need to go. Besides which, they make absolutely no sense whatsoever, are so hugely speculative they beggar belief, and are the conspiratorial ramblings of a person with no self-discipline of any kind.

    I’ll leave them long enough for you to record them somewhere if you wish, or for anyone else to copy for reference if they feel they need to, but you have been asked several times to be more disciplined with your comments, so there can be no complaints.

    This is utterly ridiculous.

    Stay on thread, to the point and in the same universe please.

  40. `@Wazza. I can’t defend everything the FBI does. I’m sure they make mistakes, in fact I know they make mistakes. I personally have problems with the entrapment method, But that applies to police posing as under age girls and tricking some guy into some illegal activity so they can arrest him. I am not sure whether I support that, or doing the same thing to catch would be terrorists. But, at the same time, if someone agrees to blow people up, or have sex with a 12 year old, I don’t have much sympathy for them.

    But the real issue, is what does that have to do with problem of Islamic terrorism. They are doing this because there has already been homegrown terrorism and because of the continual threat of terrorists blowing up planes, trains, buildings etc. Pity they didn’t entrap the Boston Marathon bombers or the London bombers.

    9/11 happened and is a fact not disputed except for you, Ian, some Islamist radicals, and crackpots. Yes, crackpots. They seem to be everywhere these days.

    And terrorists tried to blow up the WTC years before too. Maybe you aren’t old enough to remember.

    As for blowing up their towns….you make it sound like the US just goes and drops bombs on cities for no reason. do you know any fighter pilots and the care they take to attack miltary targets without civilian casualties. If not, go talk to some. You say bombing cities breeds terrorism. Go tell Obama.

    And another thing. Obama and Gillard sending troops overseas who have volunteered for military service and are trained is completely different to radical Islamic clerics recruiting normal civilians out of bookstores.
    If you can’t see that, it’s hard having a conversation.

    But I’ll make it easy. I would see a difference between Gillard sending Australian troops to Timor, and a renegade youth leader working in the local Christian book store convincing young Christians to become mercanaries there. And I’d condemn them. It’s really not the same thing.

    I’ll get back to your other points if I can. There’s just so much to cover with you guys.

  41. @Bones. So your theology is that gay marriage, gay sex, swearing your head off is okay, but any violence used to protect anyone is evil and sinful. I disagree, and I’d go further and say that if your thinking is representative, then liberal theology is responsible for the feminization of the west, and will probably lead to it’s downfall.

    Every culture I know, sees it as being noble and heroic to protect the weak, even if that requires inflicting pain, injury or death on someone if there is no alternative.

    Your ideas don’t make any sense to me. If a man or five men broke into my house I would use force to stop them if they were going to kill my kids or rape my wife. No question. And I wouldn’t see myself as having sinned. If my son prevented his mother from being bashed or raped or killed by punching someone I wouldn’t rebuke him for being evil. I’d praise him – and so would 99% of everyone I know.

    But, you say ALL violence is evil? BUt you defend swearing and gay sex?
    So a man is about to rape your wife and you say “Sorry honey, you know Jesus won’t allow violence”??
    SO maybe you can disuade him by asking him to join you in a swearing game? If that doesn’t work, what next? Tell him to have some gay sex with you instead??

    Your theology doesn’t make any sense to me.

    Okay, back to your soldiers and their experiences. I have no doubt that soldiers experience flashbacks. But there are many veterans who in spite of their experiences, would take up a rifle and go again to fight if it meant protecting their kids and grandkids.

    I’ve never said that Jesus defends war crimes. (you said they become animals) But not all men become like animals. Not all rape, Not all commit war crimes.

    I’m thankful for you uncle-in-law. IF he and others didn’t do what they did some of us wouldn’t be here.

    And I don’t see that it’s seen at all to tell someone to stop stealing your car. Even if you had a bat in your hands. WHy is that sin?

    But if ALL violence is wrong, if ALL killing is wrong, then if you became President, would you throw all weapons in the sea? Forbid police from having any weapons?

    What*s ironic is that you think it’s wrong to vote or speak against gay marriage because Christians can’t legislate morality or impose their views. But on the other hand you think any armed conflict overseas should be opposed because of what you think Jesus doesn’t like?

    @Bones and Wazza. You accuse Bush of lyiing and attacking countries for oil. Now you attack Obama for drone attacks. From an evangelical to a *mainline* Christiian. If the next President is an atheist he or she will probably be sending US troops overseas too.

    It:s easy to be a pacifist when other people are protecting you. And it:s easy to criticize foreign policy when you don’t have to be responsible for the security of your nation.

    But …you both seem to have so much hatred for the US. I don’t understand it. You sound just like radical Muslims most of the time.

  42. Q, perhaps you can cut and paste your response to Ian at 11.01 pm to the ‘Ian Williams Thread’ before I remove it.

  43. Wazza and Bones will blame the US, but who are the real aggressors here?

    After the prayer walk Janssen had the opportunity to meet with Syrian Christian refugees, who told him how they came to flee their homes and villages. Their village was occupied by rebel forces, who proceeded to announce that they were now under an Islamic emirate, and were subject to sharia law.

    The Christian residents were offered four choices:

    1. renounce the ‘idolatry’ of Christianity and convert to Islam;
    2. pay a heavy tribute to the Muslims for the privilege of keeping their heads and their Christian faith (this tribute is known as jizya);
    3. be killed;
    4. flee for their lives, leaving all their belongings behind.
    Some Christians were killed, some fled, some tried to pay the jizya and found it too heavy a burden to bear after the rebels kept increasing the amount they had to pay, and some were unable to flee or pay, so they converted to Islam to save themselves.

    The scenario reported by Syrian refugees is a re-enactment of the historic fate of Christians across the Middle East.

    http://markdurie.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/the-dhimma-returns-to-syria-dr.html

  44. Christians kill 364 Muslims in central Nigeria

    “After surrounding the town, they hunted down and attacked Muslim residents, some of whom had sought refuge in homes and a local mosque, killing many as they tried to flee and burning many others alive,” it said in a statement.
    It quoted one villager as saying: “I came back on Wednesday evening escorted by the military. I saw dead bodies everywhere. The corpses were there, but now you can just see the blood on the ground. None of the houses are standing.”

    The group called on Vice-President Goodluck Jonathan to order an immediate criminal investigation into reports of the massacre.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8476534.stm

  45. Horrendous, wazza. All forms of persecution are to be denounced. Your example, of course, took place in 2010, so it’s not news but history. The report I gave is current.

    But what is your motive for seeking an equivalent? D you thi it evens things out to find some evidence that Christians somewhere have done a wrong thing?

    What is your comment on the driving out of Christians from Iraq and Syria? Does it hold any hope for future peace in the region for the rebels to act this way?

    Without attempting to condone any act of violence, wouldn’t it be true to say that the Nigerian example you gave was the result of Islamic militancy in the region and the progressive push south by Muslim extremists? Aren’t these Muslim warriors seeking division and conflict in the region? Isn’t retaliation playing into their hands to a degree. Why isn’t the Nigerian Government providing better protection for Christians and do they have a right to defend themselves?

  46. @Wazza. You amaze me. For all the time you must spend on internet researching your wacky theories, you come up with a incident of some christians taking revenge in Nigeria.

    Do some basic newspaper reading. Do you have any idea how many hundreds of churches have been burned and destroyed? Do you have any idea of the numbers of women raped, the thousands of CHristians murdered? Do you have any idea of how many times Muslims walked into Catholic masses, protestant services and prayer meetings and threw grenades, hacked people to death and just shot everyone? How many people beheaded? People having their tongues cut out?

    And you want to publicize a Christian attack?

    Unbelievable.

    Seriously, go do some reading on persecution of Christians in Nigeria. It’s incredible.

    I’m sure you don’t hate God and Christians and the church in general, but you really give that impression.

    Got any articles about Jews in Warsaw in WW2 killing Germans?

    Anyway, maybe it wasn’t Nigerian Christians and really just Gladio agents, or the FBI?

    I swear that a thousand Christians could be beheaded tomorrow and Wazza and Bones would be pasting articles about Christian atrocities.

    Continually amaze me. You guys should put “Executive Secretary/Research Assistant to the Accuser of the Brethren” on your business cards.

  47. So a man is about to rape your wife and you say “Sorry honey, you know Jesus won’t allow violence”??

    No, you do what Jesus did and voluteer to accept the raping instead of her

  48. Got any articles about Jews in Warsaw in WW2 killing Germans?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising#Death_toll

    16 German soldiers were killed during the Warsaw Uprising by the Jews.

    13,000 Jews were killed in the ghetto during the uprising (some 6,000 among them were burnt alive or died from smoke inhalation). Of the remaining 50,000 residents, most were captured and shipped to concentration and extermination camps, in particular to Treblinka.

    Jürgen Stroop’s internal SS daily report for Friedrich Krüger, written on 16 May 1943, stated:

    “180 Jews, bandits and sub-humans, were destroyed. The former Jewish quarter of Warsaw is no longer in existence. The large-scale action was terminated at 20:15 hours by blowing up the Warsaw Synagogue. … Total number of Jews dealt with 56,065, including both Jews caught and Jews whose extermination can be proved. … Apart from 8 buildings (police barracks, hospital, and accommodations for housing working-parties) the former Ghetto is completely destroyed. Only the dividing walls are left standing where no explosions were carried out.”[26]

    Stroop Report original caption: “Forcibly pulled out of dug-outs”. Captured Jews are led by German troops to the assembly point for deportation. Picture taken at Nowolipie street, near the intersection with Smocza.
    According to the casualty lists in Stroop’s report, German forces suffered 16 killed in action and 85 wounded in action listed by name, including over 60 members of the Waffen-SS. These figures did not include Jewish collaborators, but included non-German troops under his command. The real number of German losses, however, may be well higher (the Germans suffered about 300 casualties by Edelman’s estimate). For propaganda purposes, the official announcement claimed the German casualties to be only a few wounded, while propaganda bulletins of the Polish Underground State announced that hundreds of occupiers had been killed in the fighting.

    I trust you realise I post that only as an example of trawling for what you want to find!

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