Things Jesus said #1

ThingsJesusSaid#1


101 thoughts on “Things Jesus said #1

  1. I’ve been praying to turn water into wine or better scotch. Ive only managed xxxx gold so far.

  2. So what greater works than jesus can we do. Freeing the slaves, womens equality and curing diseases.

  3. Yeah ssssssssssssssuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre.

    So Steve what have you done that is greater than Jesus’s work?

  4. You are indeed a sad and tragic case, Bones. To claim so much insight and yet see nothing is almost Jewish.

  5. I was referring to Jesus’ words to Israel:

    He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, “‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’

    There are some things I would not comment on here, having taken Jesus’ advice on where to place pearls. Nothing personal.

  6. I should have said, Jesus’ words about Israel. Of course he was speaking to his disciples.

    Paul adds to this, of course.

    “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day.”

  7. Incidentally, it is still Jesus doing the works, but doing them through the Spirit in the believer.

    Greater works? There were things Jesus did not do in His walk, because He was under the Old Covenant and not yet glorified, that He is doing through the Church today.

  8. And ‘greater’, meizas, from megas, could mean of greater quantity, which is obvious, and the reason Jesus left to send the Spirit, so there could be an army of evangelists performing His works, of greater importance (other than the cross), which of course refers to the new birth, or of greater power, which, again refers to the new birth, which is the prerequisite to eternal salvation and is far greater than healing or deliverance, or even material signs, or it could refer to greater significance, in that many believers would be, through many generations, reaching many unsaved people with the gospel of salvation.

    And of course, it is a corporate declaration, not just referring to one individual as being greater, but as of the Body of Christ, individually and corporately, being led by the Spirit of Christ to evangelise the whole world through many generations.

    But it is an empowering Word which proclaims Jesus’ intention to anoint believers with the Holy Spirit to be witnesses unto the uttermost.

    The thing is that he said it…

  9. So did Jesus say that or not Bones?

    Do you realize that in this conversation with Steve you sound like either an atheist or someone who mocks Jesus and the Bible.

    Read over the post.

    So, what’s your problem? Did Jesus say it or not?
    Greg?

    Let me guess. You actually don’t know what the right answer is, so you’ll do a goole search and try and find out what your guru Spong says.

    Did Jesus say this? Why or why not?

  10. Have you done greater works than jesus, q? Steve has but apparently is unwilling to share them with us pigs.

  11. You’ve called us pigs and then said its not personal. I’d hate to be there when you got personal.

    Did Jesus say that or not?

    Who really knows? John records the following “I AM” sayings, where Jesus is explicitly claiming divinity :

    John 14:9: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”
    John 6:35: “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life.”
    John 8:12: “I am the light of the world.”
    John 8:58: “Before Abraham was, I am.”
    John 10:7: “I am the door of the sheep.”
    John 11:25: “I am the resurrection, and the life.”
    John 14:6: “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”
    John 15:1: “I am the true vine.”

    But these aren’t recorded in any of the other gospels. Its hard to imagine that if Jesus had made these statements (quite audacious and risking punishment for blasphemy) that the other writers would have neglected to put them in their gospels.

    Rev James Dunn says in “The Evidence for Jesus” that the writer of the fourth gospel

    “was not concerned with the sort of questions which trouble some Christians today — Did Jesus actually say this? Did he use these precise words? and so on.”

  12. I’m scratching my head trying to think of what greater things I’ve done than Jesus did.

    Well I’ve got 5 kids.

    If that verse is the case, the world should be full of Christians who are doing greater things than Jesus.

    Maybe Jesus didn’t tithe?

  13. No it doesn’t matter if Jesus actually said those words. The gospel writers were not interested in word for word quotations as we do in the 21st century. The gospel writers thought it important to include those words coming from Jesus as it gives their teaching authority.

    Did Jesus say these?

    “I am the door; the person who enters by me will find Eternal bliss. I am the bed; the person who lies on me will enter perpetual rest. I am the Light; the person who sees by me will view all things.”

    “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; the Way, because you must walk in my footsteps to reach the seat of the Eternal; the Truth, because I am the Eternal God, the Totality of All That Is; the Life, because the Tree of Life, grounded in the Earthly Mother and ascending to the Heavenly Father, is nourished in my blood.”

    “I have ignited a spark in this world, and I will nourish it until it blazes into Eternal Light.”

    “When the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you, he will lead you into all Truth. Search the Light within your souls, for there will you find the reality of all things.”

  14. Jesus paid for His expenses by asking the disciples to catch a fish with a coin in its mouth. Since we can do greater things than Him, I dont know why modern ministries take tithes and offerings instead of pursuing such piscean parsimony.

    Even if one were a long way from a fishing port, a slightly looser translation would allow one to catch kangaroos and receive bags of money from their pouch. Even a possum could be carrying a credit-card.

  15. Astonishing response!

    The iffy libs doubt again and mess up the trough!

    And wonder why no believer in his right mind would post testimony in their sty!

  16. But its nothing personal, right? riiiiight.

    Now all you’ve got is insults. If you’ve made up your mind about the Bible and are determined to never doubt it, how can we believe what you say about it? You are a partisan, not a rational observer. You will stick to your beliefs no matter what the evidence is, you will just argue against any evidence that would cause you to doubt.

    Doubt is a good thing. It is not the opposite of faith. You can have a strong faith and at the same time doubt.

  17. Wazza,
    Now all you’ve got is insults.

    Er! All I did was out up a couple of the sayings of Jesus and you and your buddy Bones downloaded a heap of scoff. What’s that all about?

    And what’s worse? Saying I won’t give testimony of what Jesus has blessed me to see in ministry because I don’t trust the reception it will receive, i.e. it is precious to me and to those it affected, gives glory to God and is holy as far as I am concerned, so why would I parade that kind of goodness before people who have historically scoffed at the suggestion that Jesus does amazing things through believers today?

    Or claiming you’re insulted because you took it to yourself that you must be one of those who are likely to scoff at a testimony?

    Are you naming yourself as not trustworthy with pearls?

    I placed a pearl in front of you. What was it? It was Jesus’ words telling believers they would do His works and greater works. That was a pearl. What did you do with it, Wazza? Bones?

    You trampled it all over this thread. That’s what you did with it.

    And you’re mad at me!

    I’ve got far more than insults. In fact, I gave you truths and you were offended. Sometimes the truth offends. Did I name you, or anyone? You placed yourself in the zone. I have fr more than insults. I have the Word and it pierces.

    I have the testimony of Jesus. He is still alive. He is the same yesterday today and forever. I have stories to tell my children and children’s children of the greatness of God in our time.

    Testimony. But it won’t see the light of day here as long as witless scoffers wreck the trough. I’ve tried to comment on what God does in our ministry a few times, and, guess what, after seeing what some people will do with sound testimony, I grew wise and now refrain. Don’t blame me for that.

    That’s what I was saying to Bones. Would you lay your life before Bones if you were me?

  18. I’d lay down my life for Bones, but not before him.

    It’s a matter of priorities and trust, that’s all.

  19. “Its hard to imagine that if Jesus had made these statements (quite audacious and risking punishment for blasphemy) that the other writers would have neglected to put them in their gospels.”

    So you say dogmatically that every saying of Jesus should be in every gospel? Why????????

    SO you are saying you don’t accept something that isn’t in all four gospels?? Why?

    If your logic is true then wouldn’t there be four gospels with exactly the same content?

  20. “as I said, many times, I am not a liberal Christian, I am a catholic evangelical emergent Methodist.”

    After spending the last few hours drinking with Asians who don’t know the meaning of either of those four terms, I’m afraid I have no idea what that means.

    Maybe tomorrow it will make more sense…

  21. Wazza,
    You can have a strong faith and at the same time doubt.

    That’s what my Pastor says. I don’t disagree, but I have already written on this on another thread in answer to a similar claim by Bones, saying there are different kinds of doubting, but Jesus definitely called doubt an enemy of faith.

    But the doubt Jesus was talking about was double-mindedness. Being caught between opposing opinions.

    I choose to believe the Word of God, where I see it as such, over the word of men. I find it works out better this way.

    I have a weakness in that I tend towards indecision on some issues, so it’s important to me and my family and my job to be able to be decisive. Mostly these are common sense decisions, and often drawn up in conference with others, but where it comes to decisions which involve a Biblical application I need to have the sure foundation clear and concise and not muddied by unbelief, doubt or double-mindedness.

    I have no time for fudging around wondering whether John is actually the author of John. Dear Lord! That is so stupid it beggars belief that anyone would even waste their time contriving such nonsense. I want to know, right now, whether, if I pray in faith I will see my child’s fever broken and not wonder if any of it actually works.

    I have had people brought to me who need an answer to their dilemma, say, for their child’s illness, or a difficult personal problem, and I need to be fully in faith in God, and hearing the Holy Spirit, and totally trusting the Word of Christ to show me how to help that person using the Word and Spirit as He leads. I don’t need the confusion of speculative theology in the heat of a situation. I need clarity.

    And so do you!

    James, too, said the double-minded man would get nothing. He certainly made this kind of doubt the enemy of faith. He defined faith as not doubting.

    In any spare time I can look at different theologies and aspects and ideologies, but not when I’m in the middle of something significant and important.

    When I’m facing a mountain type experience in my life or the life of my family I completely put this blog aside. I don’t even think about it. It is not my source. It doesn’t provide the answer. It is interesting and sometimes fun, and I see things I otherwise wouldn’t, but I need the strength and power and authority of God on that situation, so I need to be absolutely certain of the way in which the Word works and how the Holy Spirit is leading me in that circumstance.

    ‘If a man believes and does not doubt in his heart, he shall have what he says’. Who said this?

  22. I asked on another thread about that last verse.

    Does anyone here get whatever they say from God?

  23. Perhaps you need the faith of Abraham.

    He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.

    Perhaps your demands are presumptuous. Maybe you’e not asking according to God’s will or promises. Or you’re asking out of your own desires and not out God’s for your life. Or you ask amiss.

    Jesus also said, “Whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.”

    But John qualifies this for us.

    ‘Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.’

    Of course, one of your problems is that you don’t believe Joh wrote anything and you eliminate what he says from the Word. You also challenge Paul, so none of these verses mean anything to you.

    Plus you mock and scoff at them. This is a really big no-no when it comes to faith.

    Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.

    You see, the blessed man is the man who doesn’t sit in he seat of the scornful, or receive the counsel of the ungodly. If you’re going to mess around with God’s Word to the extent of mocking it, you are certainly never going to believe it. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption. God is not mocked.

    Scornful – Hebrew word, luwts – ‘to scorn, make mouths at, talk arrogantly, to boast, mock or deride, to be inflated, act as a scorner or make oneself a scorner’.

    Delight in the Word and the Word will begin to make changes in you which lead to answers to prayer. That’s how it goes.

    ‘And does not doubt in his heart…’

  24. I’m very interested in this idea of people sitting in the seat of the scornful because it is such a dangerous and damaging place to be. I bring it up here because i have seen it first hand on this thread and it is very troubling. Not so much for me personally, but for those who think they can live in that place and consider that it’s OK, and there are no repercussions to their disrespect for the Word of God.

    You might say that the passages in question are, in your theology, questionable therefore why should we worry about making fun of them, but I think it’s far more serious than this.

    I also reckon that, although I’m engaging with Bones on the subject of faith and doubt here his intentions are not pure so I do not trust him and I am reticent to continue, suspecting an ambit followed by an ambush. Why is this?

    Because if he can find it so easy to mock God’s Word, or the recorded words of Jesus Christ, why would he think anything of my words, or my testimony?

    I’m nothing, no-one. I am sincere in my obscurity, but nevertheless my words are unimportant to the great scheme of things, so they are a definite soft target for a man who is prepared to scoff at the words of the King of Kings.

    But it troubles my heart that people can so fearlessly deny the words of Jesus. I’ve seen my theology scoffed at. No big deal. I stand by most of it, and recognise flaws, but I am not God, or Jesus. I am a faulty, base, weak vessel. Don’t blame me for that. We’re all in the same boat.

    But when I merely post up the words attributed to Christ and they are mocked like this I am really taken aback. I did not compose them. I did not author them. I did not record them. I merely reported them.

    I do believe them. I find them hard to believe. They are incredible. They are beyond our comprehension. The level of faith required to actually act on them is beyond most believers. And yet we are told a mustard seed sized faith will move mountains. Jesu must have known we might even struggle with them. Yet Jesus said them.

    It’s what we do with them which defines us, though, isn’t it?

    It’s what we do with them which determines the effectiveness of faith in our lives.

  25. The thing is, all of us know what He said. The issue is what did He mean?

    For example, I’m almost certain that no Christian has ever said to a mountain “go move over there” and the mountain actually did that. So the question is, what did Jesus mean when He said we could do that?

    Did he mean that we would physically move actual mountains, or was there some metaphorical meaning?

    I would be scornful if someone said He could move mountains by ordering them to go. Sometimes you need to be scornful of simplistic or silly beliefs. It dosent mean I’m scornful of the words of Jesus.

  26. Actually Steve it is not Jesus who does the greater works, it is the Father within if you want to be pedantic about it. That is why we may do the same works of faith Jesus did and even more, as we have the same Father heart, and he does the works, just as He did in Jesus.

    I have experienced the greater works – I have seen miracles that are literally Biblical.

    What you guys should be more concerned with right now is that the Obamanation of Desolation is about to give it to Syria up the Assad. The time they raped and stole Libya coincided with tragic CHCH and Japan EQ’s, and warnings from the Moon man (NZ’er Ken Ring) and the Barcaroller (Aussie Joe, the Sun man).

    Now we have the same misinformation service telling us that there are going to be quakes next week and of course that EVIL MAN Assad is next in line for the chop. Only a few more central banks to go and it is game over folks – its called Monopoly Capitalism – or Mammonism – and it goes all the way back to Babylon via Rome, where sun and moon worship were the prevailing religion, just like they still are in Rome and Babylon.

    The Cozmic Counterfeit Christ will come to his own. Watch how all the churches start to get all doe eyed over the Pope and Roman traditions and coalesce into one Beastly Body of Babylon bustling with business and bursting with beneficence and bounty, and then, the Pale Horse enters, with Death, and Hades following after…

  27. Q:

    So you say dogmatically that every saying of Jesus should be in every gospel? Why????????

    SO you are saying you don’t accept something that isn’t in all four gospels?? Why?

    If your logic is true then wouldn’t there be four gospels with exactly the same content?

    Not at all, its just that if Jesus said something that important multiple times (basically a very clear “I am God”) then I would expect it to be recorded by at least one other writer. Wouldn’t you?

    If we went back to Matthew and asked him the question, would he say “Oh yes, Jesus did say all that stuff about being the great “I AM” and being the way, truth and life and no one coming to the Father except through Him. But I thought it wasn’t all that important. I had other important information about who begat who. I cant write everything you know!”

  28. Things Jesus said (which we don’t believe)

    “But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.”

  29. So, you are saying what Wazza?
    Please write then a list of things that Jesus said, and things he didn’t say.

    Then we’ll see if greg and bones agree with you.

  30. “people sitting in the seat of the scornful because it is such a dangerous and damaging place to be”

    I’m still waiting to hear what the mockers and scorners say when the preach the gospel.

    So Bones, Greg and Wazza, will you be going overseas to preach the gospel? What is your message?

    Do you have a message so good that you would go overseas to preach it? What is it that you tell people?

  31. He did say :

    ” So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”

  32. Thanks for that verse Wazza. I’ve been thinking about that one lately.

    I’ve always battled stress and anxiety even when I was one of the born again crew.

    Can someone do an article on Christians and stress/anxiety?

  33. But how do know Jesus really said that? Is it recorded in all four gospels.

    And I’m still waiting for the gospel that you preach. Jesus told us to go out into all the world “that is if you accept that he said that”. Will you be going overseas to places where there are few Christians?
    And what is your message? What can you tell the Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and those without a religion?

    @Bones Stress and anxiety? Why? And are you now not born again?

    You have been badgering Steve over the “greater things than these” and “ask anything” etc.

    So, Jesus talk about leaving his peace. So, why don’t you have peace?
    Does that mean Jesus didn’t say it? Or that anyone who talks about Jesus and peace has a strange belief because not all Christians have peace?

    Why don’t you do your own article on stress and anxiety.

    I could probably do one, but you’d no doubt say that either Jesus didn’t really say the verses I quote or that only fundamentalists would take the verses literally.

    I’m not surprised at all that you have stress and anxiety. I’d say depression too, based on what you believe and your attitude to the Bible and Christians.

    But I’ll give you a simple answer. Spend more time praying and reading and meditation and believeing the Word of God than you do on scouring the internet for reasons not to believe.

    @ Wazza, if you are mocking my beliefs of God…why?

    So, tell me YOUR beliefs about God. What exactly do you believe. Can I mock you back?

    You spend a lot of time mocking evangelicals’ beliefs. tell us yours”

  34. “and all these things will be given to you as well. ‘

    Interesting. If Steve quoted that Bones would have been mocking in return.

    So, Wazza and Bones – you believe that verse?? Really? You think God in heaven reaches down and gives people water, food and clothes? Elaborate. I’ll sit back and take pot shots at your answers like you do with Steve.

  35. It doesn’t matter whether Jesus said it or not. The gospel writers thought it was important to put in the gospel.

  36. q, I’m not interested in your Christian pseudo psycho babble .or your cultic inferences to claim anyone whos different has a mental disease. It just shows how low you will stoop when you can’t defend or present an altrrnative argument.

    I’m not surprised you would use that against me like gregs past. But I know other Christians struggle with it so I was thinking of them, not myself and certainly not you.

  37. I’m not using it against you at all.

    I honestly think the best bet for you to be free from stress, anxiety and depression is to trust in God, pray and meditate, believe in and confess the Word of God. Give thanks for all thinks and be always praising God.

    I could quote scripture after scripture, but if you don’t think accept them as God’s word and just think it’s psychobabble then that’s your call.

    But seriously, judging by the way you talk about the Bible, Christians, churches etc, you’re not really giving yourself much chance at a joyful peaceful state of mind.

  38. Q, do you not accept the science that shows that depression is a chemical imbalance fo the brain? it is your sort of comment that creates the sense in so many Christian’s who experience depression that they must not be reading their bibles enough, they must not be trusting God enough, if only they prayed more often or more fervently they would escape the clutches of depression. Bullshit. Proper diagnosis and medication with Serotonin Specific Re-uptake Inhibitors (SSRI’s), is in most case of depression the answer.

    You’re answer just forces people deeper into depression when they don’t perform their magic God tricks well enough

  39. Astonishing!

    Q tries to help with a Biblical solution and the result is an attack from people who claim to have been victimisd by the Word of God.

    Tell me, Greg, when, in Jesus’ day, people were ‘oppressed’, or suffering from some kind of depression, how did they get hold of ‘re-uptake inhibitors’? Did they have to sign on at the local GP?

    Did Jesus hav a secret supply of ‘re-upake inhibitors’ he was handing out to people he claimed healing for in meetings?

    I agree that, in some cases, there is a chemical imbalance involved in depression, and people need ongoing medical and pastoral care, but to scold Q and play the victim card because he wants to help Bones with a scriptural solution is more dark ages than your own claims.

    And then you call God out and claim he does magic tricks! Putting up that scripture in the post has revealed far more than I could have known.

  40. Plus you created a strawman, because I didn’t see anywhere that Q declared anyone didn’t have enough faith, or bible-reading, or prayer. He just said it would be better to trust the Word than to mock it.

    But I will take you up on this, because how could you claim to have any faith that God heals, or that the Word is true, when you can so easily dismiss it as myth, as errant, as not even part of the canon, as the mere ideas of men and not God-inspired, and, worse, mock and scoff at the words of Jesus, and even claim that God doesn’t do ‘magic tricks’, which is your misrepresentation of healing?

    If you do not believe the Word of God how could you have faith that it is true?

  41. Two things:

    Tell me, Greg, when, in Jesus’ day, people were ‘oppressed’, or suffering from some kind of depression, how did they get hold of ‘re-uptake inhibitors’? Did they have to sign on at the local GP?

    Tell me, Steve, when, in Jesus’ day, people were blind, or suffering from some kind of glaucoma, how did they get hold of ‘Carbonic anhydrase inhibitors (CAIs)’? Did they have to sign on at the local GP?

    What a stupid question…they didn’t have the science we do now, they didn’t perform brain surgery, nor were they able to treat cancer or infertility…are you suggesting therefore that todays scientific breakthroughs in those areas are irrelevant?

    And then you call God out and claim he does magic tricks!

    No I didn’t…read it again. this is why your version of scripture interpretation is so dubious. As I’ve said to you before, if you can’t understand modern english in a text written to you, how could you possibly be trusted to interpret something that is a translation of a 2-3000 year old text, written to someone else in totally different circumstances?

    What I said was when the people being told to jump through hoops (god magic) find that the god magic, i.e. the hoops they are supposed to jump through in order to effect a cure, doesn’t work they sink into an even deeper depression, because they see themselves as not being good enough!

    No straw man at all – Q is suggesting that trusting the bible will fix depression…no it won’t.

  42. I’m not interested in amateur Christian psychological diagnosis. Nor the nonsense that because one has a different theology or doubts that one has a mental illness. And yes I pray and read my Bible daily.

    Charles Spurgeon suffered from depression, Rick Warren’s son shot himself.

    Maybe they should have read their Bibles more eh.

    People suffer depression for all sorts of reasons, primarily through chemical imbalances in the brain. I’ve seen what happens when that’s played with too. How a strong loving man who recently committed his life to God can be reduced to blowing his brains out.

    I’ve seen Christians suffering from schizophrenia believe they were healed only to end up back in the Psych ward.

    Some of us also suffer anxiety from the trauma and loss that occurs in life. We have experiences and memories which shape us.

    And don’t get me started on ministers having to undergo therapy.

    Psalm 42’s ‘Why are you cast down, O my soul, and why are you in turmoil within me? is a biblical plea of the human condition and the reality of anxiety and depression.

    “My soul is cast down within me…. Deep calls to deep…”

    Yet the Psalmist says that through it all, the depression, loss, anxiety, his hope is in God who is worthy to be praised. This God is near. God has not forgotten. This God does not judge the psalmist for his depression.

    By day the Lord commands his steadfast love,
    and at night his song is with me,
    a prayer to the God of my life.
    9 I say to God, my rock:
    “Why have you forgotten me?
    Why do I go mourning
    because of the oppression of the enemy?”
    10 As with a deadly wound in my bones,
    my adversaries taunt me,
    while they say to me all the day long,
    “Where is your God?”
    11 Why are you cast down, O my soul,
    and why are you in turmoil within me?
    Hope in God; for I shall again praise him,
    my salvation and my God.

    Actually to suffer depression/ mental illness and believe in God is a real act of faith.

  43. If I could post an article it would be this.

    Christians Can’t Ignore the Uncomfortable Reality of Mental Illness

    Our shallow responses send the message that our faith has no answer for this kind of suffering. – Amy SImpson

    Last weekend, the nation, and particularly the evangelical community, was stunned by the news that Rick Warren’s youngest son, Matthew , had died by suicide after a lifelong battle with mental illness. We can’t say what Matthew Warren—a young man with access to mental health care, a loving family, and a relationship with Christ—was thinking and feeling as he took his own life, but we can honor this family’s pain by considering how we interact with the people in our own lives who suffer from mental illness.
    In the wake of his son’s death, Rick Warren has already addressed the “haters ” who celebrate his family’s loss and blame Warren himself. For most people, such a response is unfathomable. To celebrate a person’s tragic death takes a special kind of evil. But in responding to mental illness, even well-meaning people can do harm so easily.
    Experts say more than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have a mental disorder; while most people with mental illness do not die this way, Matthew Warren is not the only sufferer to experience that impulse or to act on it. He’s one of about 38,000 in the U.S. to die by suicide each year, and thousands more attempt to do so, imagine it, or live out a number of other frightening symptoms of mental illness.
    People with mental illness sometimes behave in ways other people don’t understand and can’t make sense of. People with severe depression sometimes stay in bed all day, unable to manage the most basic motivation to move. People with anxiety disorders can be gripped by irrational or even unidentifiable fears that don’t incapacitate other people. Those affected by psychotic disorders may see things that aren’t real, hear voices that don’t exist, and sometimes lose the ability to discern reality at all.
    Sometimes people with mental illness mistreat or hurt the people they love—or themselves. Some who need medication stop taking it or won’t start. Some who seem to be doing well suddenly start showing symptoms again. And yes, some try to end their lives. When they succeed, their loved ones are left with a gaping devastation that cannot be patched with a Hallmark card or niceties about God wanting another angel in heaven.
    All of this can be hard for us to understand. I’ve done my share of trying. When I was a teenager, I tried to communicate with my mother, who suffers from schizophrenia, during psychotic episodes. I desperately tried to understand why she was so afraid and how to help her. Later, I tried to understand after she spent two years believing she was receiving special insights during church services—then she walked away from the church and into the occult. Another time, she was convicted of a crime and spent time in prison. These incidents were so far removed from her true character. My family agonized over them, but we couldn’t prevent or “fix” any of them, any more than we could understand them. And I still haven’t understood what to do with my own emotions when I once again feel that old bubbling sludge of anger, pity, horror, and sorrow when one of the people I love most makes another terrible choice, repeats a mistake, or hurts other people—and may or may not be responsible for her behavior. If she isn’t, who is?

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2013/april/healthier-christian-response-to-mental-illness.html

    Some excellent responses as well.

  44. Greg – does the imbalance cause the problem or the problem cause the imbalance? Scientists know much of what Schizophrenia (aka unreasoned fear syndrome) does to the brain through MRI scans, and the chemical and neurological changes, but they don’t know what triggers the events. What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

    The other day I was feeling a bit challenged by what is going on int he world when I chanced upon a video produced by a friend in the States. It was nearly half an hour of scriptures pertaining to God’s plan of redemption and His Love for His Creation. At first I just left it going and gradually began to focus more and more on the words and the power which they were anointed by began to imbue me with hope and I found myself becoming increasingly encouraged, strengthened and built up in faith came by the hearing, and the hearing came by the Word. But such can also be a kind of temporary fix, treatment, almost Old T in its nature (this book of the Law shall not depart from your sight, you shall remain in it morning, noon and night). Religion can be, and is, a drug. We have to discern whether we are feeling a religious buzz or having a real experience. If we are at all mature, we should know the difference, both in our own experience and in the manifestations of others. But to the pure all things are pure and to the just all things are just.

    The joy of The Lord is our strength and the Lord takes pleasure in the fulfillment of His children. When we are full of His Joy, His Power, His Presence, His Person, then He is most happy, His delight is in our perfection, in bringing us to Glory as dear children.

    But you touch on one very important thing – where would we be without our Bibles? Would we still have faith hope and love to guide us? How would we hear God? Our faith is founded in Jesus, but without a reliable record of His life and person how would we know to believe or even what to believe? Would we know “The Man” if we knew not of Jesus? I have a friend who knows “The Man” and The Man told him recently that his redemption was coming soon. Go figure.

    Unfortunately virtually all religions are leavened or mingled with the Babylonian mystery system, which is why they all share such commonalities and why it will be relatively easy to craft the World Church out of the plethora of cults and creeds. Only one belief system stands alone – the faith which has stood the test of time from – from the faithful Able, to Enoch, to Noah, to the faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – the faith of Christ. Judaism is NOT the faith of Jesus Christ, it is a Babylonian mystery cult which has metastasized into a cancer in the Abrahamic faith(s). The religion or faith of Jesus was CHRISTIANITY at its purest form. It was ALWAYS really “Christianity” in the deeper sense – for it was always about Christ (or Meschiach/Messiah) as far as I can see. There is only one faith, one baptism, one sacrifice, ONE WAY. Let all else be anathema.

    Check this out, especially verse 2 and ESPECIALLY verses 14-16.
    Titus 1
    1. Paul, the servant of God and apostle of Jesus Christ in the faith of God’s elect and in the knowledge of truth in submission to God,
    2. Regarding the Hope of everlasting life that the true God instituted before the ages of the universe,
    3. And revealed His Manifestation (Word) in due course (in His season) also through my preaching, that which I believe in by the command of our Life-giving God —
    4. To Titus, true child of deep abiding faith — grace and peace from our Father and Lord Jesus Christ, Our Life-giver.

    5. Because of that I left you in Crete, so that you may recruit those who suffered loss, (through persecution)
    6. But they should not be temperamental; they should be the husband of one woman, who do not have rebellious children that are totally lacking the [latent] devotion of the prodigal.
    7. For the priest who is not temperamental is also caring, like a divine nurturer, and he or she should not be ill tempered and they should not drink excessively and they should not be in a hurry to strike someone and they should not be graceful toward (receiving) contributions from evil people,
    8. Except they should be merciful toward strangers and graceful toward good deeds, they should be polite and righteous, and they should be holy and rid themselves of lusts,
    9. And they should do their very best regarding the knowledge of the Manifestation (Word) of Faith, so as they may be able to also uplift the hearts of others with the wholesome knowledge and [be in a position] to recover those who stray away.
    10. For there are many who do not adhere [to the faith,] whose words are critical and they mislead the people’s opinions, especially those of the circumcised,
    11. Those whose duty it is to close their mouth, for they have demoralized many households, as they teach what is not Lawful for the sake of evil gain.
    12. One of their prophets said, “Cretians lie in every season, they are savages (evil creatures) and freeloaders (moochers).”
    13. And this is a true testimony (a fact), therefore be tough in your admonitions on their behalf, so as they may recover their faith.
    14. And so they will not revert to the outdated holocausts (sacrifices, burnt offerings) of the Jews, and the dictates (commandments) of humanity, those that hate the truth.
    15. For everything that is pure is for the pure; however, to those who are inveterate unbelievers, there is nothing pure, except all their opinions and their very conscious is rotten.
    16. And they confess that they know God, however, with their actions they curse Him, and they are hateful, intolerant and degrading toward everyone who does good.
    Selah.

  45. I LOVE IT! 9. And they should do their very best regarding the knowledge of the Manifestation (Word) of Faith, so as they may be able to also uplift the hearts of others with the wholesome knowledge and [be in a position] to recover those who stray away.

  46. No, Greg, Bones, you took exception to Qs suggestion because you made assumptions about his theology, and mine, for that matter.

    Q, as far as I can make out, pointed Bones to God. Bones used David the Psalmist to point himself to God. There is no difference.

    And this rubbish about ‘my’ interpretation or ‘your’ interpretation of scripture has nothing whatsoever with what Jesus is recorded as saying. I have only used his exact recorded words, nothing else. No commentary. No theology. No opinion. No position. Only the the phrases attributed to him, and you, Bones and wazza have gone ballistic in your rejection of Jesus’ words.

    Wazza is under the illusion he was mocking my theology, when I actually offered none on this thread, only a quote from the Bible attributed to The Lord Jesus.

    The other accusations levelled by you on the claim that we cause depression by being critical about a depressed person’s faith, prayer or Bible study was completely contrived by you, and added to by Bones. That is what I find astonishing. There is no way Q was saying this, nor that I believe this. Yet you say you can deny God’s Word, and still have faith. Faith based on what then?

    It occurs to me that you have more faith in science than in the Word. That is not a criticism, but an observation. Some other believers have the reverse belief. I trust God before science, but appreciate science as an extension of the things God has given us, which is probably somewhere in between, but God and his Word must come first in all things.

    And medical science clearly doesn’t have all the solutions. It is marvellous and effective and I appreciate it greatly, but it also has its limitations. It doesn’t cure depression. It covers it. Sometimes it actually causes other problems because of the medication.

    My point about medication in Jesus day was that there were, by percentage, as many people suffering depression in his day as there are today. The Bible tells us he cured all illnesses. You are saying, in effect, that what he did then doesn’t happen any more. The Bible says differently. Should I believe you or the Bible?

    And you do mock God by mocking His Word, as does wazza and Bones. There is no denying this. And, if the Word is all it says it is, of course it will have an effect on the mocker. As Paul said,”God is not mocked” , before going on to say that we reap what we sow, where to the flesh or the spirit.

  47. “No, Greg, Bones, you took exception to Qs suggestion because you made assumptions about his theology, and mine, for that matter.
    Q, as far as I can make out, pointed Bones to God. Bones used David the Psalmist to point himself to God. There is no difference.”

    Exactly. Greg you are being silly. And Bones is just being Bones.

    Read Steve’s point. I never stated that it was wrong to take medication for any type of mentall illness including depression. Not once.

    There are many levels of depression. Whether people are suffering from severe long standing clinical depression that has lasted for years, or less severe types that most people experience from time to time, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what I said.

    I’ve probably read and forgotten more research about clinical depression (and schizophrenia for that matter) than either of you have read.

    If you have studying anything about depression (and I’ll use the term widely), you’ll realize that there are many people who take medication and still have problems. I’m not sure if either of you have had clinical depression on a major level and been treated by qualified people, but if you have and those people had any kind of training, you’d know that depression is not best treated by popping pills.

    Your response was juvenile and ignorant. I suggest you do more reading on depression, it’s causes and current therapies. You’ll find that there is so much written about thought patterns and cognitive approaches.

    I could do your homework for you, but I’m sure you’re capable of googling.

    But as Steve said, I suggested spending time praying. The Psalmist was honest before God.

    I have no hesitation recommending someone spend time in prayer like the Psalmist then spending times in negativity, criticism and argument, and reading books about how God can not intervene in history.

    I also will not detract the statement, that anyone suffering from depression would do well to spend time each day being thankful to God for everything they can think of.

    I also will in no way detract my statement that a man or woman will have a better chance of a peaceful mind relatively free of anxiety if they spent as many thoughts and words blessing and praising God instead of criticizing and pasting examples of the failings of people and institutions.

    And the Bible says to rejoice. Even when circumstances are terrible and you are sorrowful or mournful to the point of tears or death. I believe that the concept of looking to God with faith and rejoicing and hoping and believing that the future will get better or at least that God loves you and holds you in his hands, is not wrong, crazy, hurtful in any way at all. Not at all.

    The irony is that one of you is going to be studying Anthony Robbins.
    He talks about learning how to change your emotional state. Go read his materail.

    I have nothing to apologize for, and I’ve said nothing wrong.

    I understand totally that depression in all it’s forms is a reality – and has been a reality for many p[eople from Old Testament times, to the time of Jesus to now, and will be until we are in heaven.

    There is nothing wrong with seeking psychiatric help, taking medication at all.

    But, I repeat. Spending time mocking Christians who have different views, and spending hours at a time bringing up examples of the failings of Christians and churches is the LAST thing I would recommend to a Christian suffering from depression (diagnosed professionally or not).

    The way both Greg and Bones responded is just obnoxious.

    The Bible clearly says to be continually be blessing, thanking, praising, rejoicing.

    Calm down guys – and study the scriptures regarding thanking, praising, hope, thinking on certain things, renewing your mind. I’m not making this stuff up.

    You can argue that the passages I mentioned aren’t the word of God, or don’t make sense, or whatever.

    That’s your choice.

    Btw Will any of you get back to me with whether you will being going overseas to share the gospel like Jesus said, and explain what your message is – that is so good that it’s worth going overseas for, being imprisoned, and beaten for or possibly laying down your life?

  48. “know that depression is not best treated by popping pills.”

    sorry, I left out “Just” as in “Just by medication”. But if you read the rest you’d get it.

  49. See Bones – read Psalm 42 again. There are plenty of times when I have prayed and said the same thing to God – “Why have you forsaken me” I’ve been there.

    So you quoted Psalm 42. I believe in Psalm 42 – I even believe it’s the Word of God. I believe it has power.
    The Psalmist talked to God – and he talked to his soul and his ends up talking about hope and praising God and looking to the future.

    What the Psalmist doesn’t do is continue to dwell in negativity and mock the people of God and laugh about scriptures. We don’t know what his brain chemistry was like – but he prayed, and he meditated on God’s law. He didn’t pull it apart and find everything wrong about Israel and it’s history.

    So, read the Psalms.

    And yes, I’ve had good friend who are diagnosed with schizophrenia, I know several people who have suicided. Way too many.

    And I have read lots about Rick Warren’s son, and have absolutely no condemnation of them or their church.

    But no, I wouldn’t have recommended that he read your posts either.

  50. btw Thanks Steve for understanding. I really don’t think I said anything that radical, evil or condemning.

    I sure got it back though!!

    And Ian, I’ve read a lot about behavior and thinking and it’s effect on the brain. There is so much groundbreaking research out there now – things scientists didn’t know 20 years ago.

  51. Will any of you get back to me with whether you will being going overseas to share the gospel like Jesus said, and explain what your message is – that is so good that it’s worth going overseas for, being imprisoned, and beaten for or possibly laying down your life?

    I’ve thought about your question, Q, and my answer is No. I would not go overseas to share the gospel. I might go somewhere, within Australia or overseas if I was called to help or serve others. But it wouldn’t be just to share the gospel.

    One of the reasons is that I am not a gifted evangelist or speaker. If I did a 30 minute speech entitled “The world is round”, half the people would leave not believing it. An evangelist needs to sell a message, and I don’t have a single salesman’s bone in my body.

    But the secondary reason is that I don’t think those methods are as appropriate nowdays. The Gen-Ys of the West are very skeptical of people pushing all-encompassing world-views and they reject them outright. The failures of the Catholic church and the money-grubbing of the ‘Modern’ churches are turning them off in droves. The message has been so hackneyed and played for power and material gain that it has been devalued in the West. Most Gen-Y’s are what I would call Apatheist. They don’t know if there is a God and they don’t care.

    Now it may be true that you can go overseas and find places where the image of Christianity has not been so devalued, perhaps China is one place where people may be more receptive. I still don’t like the idea of “I’m the guy from the West with all the answers, you are in spiritual darkness, so I will help you.” . This is not a dig at you, Q, I think you would be doing good work.

    I just think the world is a different place now than when Jesus gave the great commission to the disciples.

  52. Why would you not go because of suspicions about so-called Gen Ys? That’s just psycho-mumbo jumbo devised by academics to fund their doctorates. Jesus didn’t send us to any particular age group. He sent us into the whole world. In fact, if you believe Scripture that is, he sent us all as we go along to anyone we encounter, so wherever we are is where we are called and sent to make disciples, which is an extension of evangelising, which is only the entry level for new converts.

    Even if you are not a confident public speaker, it doesn’t mean you can’t be effective, because most people are won through one on one encounters, and, better still, through long term relationships, not cold calling. Preaching to large groups is a specialist form of evangelism. Spending time with people to let them know that Jesus is real, alive and relevant to their lives is a mid to long term investment of our time and energy, and is built on genuine relationships.

    Gen Ys would be people in their thirties, and they are just as likely to respond in a genuine relationship as anyone else. But there are many more people in the earth than just this age group, and they are all winnable. People are far more open to Christ when we use the right approach than most Christians believe.

    They are mostly waiting for the Church, or, rather, the people if the Church, to be the real deal and demonstrate that God is real, and that they can have an authentic relationship with God.

    When the Church is real the people will come.

  53. By the way, Bones, the Psalm you quoted is not saying David suffered from a chemical imbalance mental health issue requiring medication. He was being persecuted, either by Saul or Absalom, into having to take refuge from people who wanted to kill him. That is very different to the depression you and Greg are talking about.

    He’s not sitting on some bar-stool lamenting his depressed state. He’s crying out to return to Jerusalem to once again worship in the house of God. “When I remember these things, I pour out my soul within me. For I used to go with the multitude; I went with them to the house of God, With the voice of joy and praise, With a multitude that kept a pilgrim feast.”

    He is on the run from his enemies and crying out to God for a return to his home. “I will say to God my Rock, “Why have You forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?””

    It wasn’t medication which would be the cure for his sadness, but a return to his home and to stability in the anointing God placed on him as King.

    And the solution?

    “Why are you cast down, O my soul? And why are you disquieted within me? Hope in God; For I shall yet praise Him, The help of my countenance and my God.”

    Praise and hope in God. Exactly what Q has been saying.

  54. @Wazza
    Thanks for your serious and honest answer.
    I liked your earth is round bit.

    @Steve I love the way you talked about not reaching out to only one age group.
    One of the few who I hear talk like that. Super encouraged.

  55. Steve if you bothered to read my post properly i outlined a number of causes of depression.

    Are you saying the Warren boy shot himself because of a lack of trusting in jesus?

  56. I’ve probably read and forgotten more research about clinical depression (and schizophrenia for that matter) than either of you have read.

    Unless you’re a psychologist, I doubt it.
    I studied Counselling, psychology, and human bio science at uni

  57. >I also will not detract the statement, that anyone suffering from depression would do well to spend time each day being thankful to God for everything they can think of.

    and I wouldn’t suggest you should…I totally agree with you.

  58. Who knows why anyone commits suicide? I won’t judge their reasons, or state of mind when doing so. I think that’s a loaded question.

    You used David as an example of a depressed person. I merely commented on this. He was clearly not depressed as a result of a chemical imbalance. Greg has exclusively named this as a major cause of depression. Q has called him on it and declared, rightly, that there are a number of reasons. I have said that it can be a chemical imbalance but there are other reasons. You are saying there are a number of reasons, some of which, you must admit, science and medicine has no answer for.

    On another occasion David is depressed because his wives and children, as well as those of his soldiers, were carried away into captivity. Another time he is depressed because God judged him to be wrong to send one of his generals to certain death in battle whilst he committed adultery with the general’s wife and got her pregnant. He was guilty of murder and adultery. That will depress a man. He was depressed because child died and God told him it was his fault.

    There are multiple examples in the Psalms of David’s various depressive states, but they are all aligned to either persecution or sin, not a chemical imbalance.

    Depression is a terrible thing. You accused Q of simplistic psycho-babble because he gave you the exact solution you gave yourself, that is to wait on The Lord as David did when he was in hiding and had everything stripped away from him as a man and as a king.

    Job was in deep depression over his multiple losses. None of his depression was attributable to a chemical imbalance. It was an assault by the enemy of faith permitted by God. Job refused to curse God to His face. Ultimately God restored everything to Job twice over.

    You have shaken your fist at God simply because I put up a few Scriptures which are attributed to Jesus. Non one prompted you to do this. Am saying, and Q is saying that this an in no way assist your recovery. It is not amateur psychology as you claim. It is Scriptural fact. You have cursed God to His face, and it is not a good place to be, especially if you are prone to depression.

  59. Speaking of things Jesus either did not say or were misquoted, misrepresented, misapprehended etc.:

    Psam 22.

    1. Alaheh, Alaheh,* wherefore have you left me,*
    and kept my salvation away,*
    on account of my foolish words;
    2. Alaheh, I call on you by day —
    you do not answer me
    and by night —
    you do not comfort me:

    *22:1.1 Lit. Aramaic word retained: Alaheh, or: “Over the Flames.” “Elohim,” in Hebrew (note the plural endings.) In English, the general appellation referring to the Creator is translated as: “God.” The word “God” does not retain the plural ending of the original word. The general appellation “God” is not derived from Alaheh or Elohim, but is simply substituted for “Elohim” with the first translations of the Old Testament from the Hebrew to the Greek language. The name “Elohim,” however, is retained in all Hebrew Scriptures throughout the ages. In Arabic, the word is “Ullah,” which has a singular ending. These differences in connotation exacerbate the interpretation of the Trinity, although they’re not directly related to the subject, since “Over the Flames” is not a reference to the Trinity. However, the origin of the word “Elohim” is a pictograph of Ashur, which does represent the Trinity.
    *22:1.2 Jesus transformed this opening verse of David’s 22nd Psalm when He called out from the Cross, “Eili, Eili, l’mana shwektani.” The greatest title of God, “Eil,” is actually used in the 20th verse of Psalm 22, but Jesus uses it as the opening of his utterance from the Cross. Eashoa (Jesus) was God in the flesh, declaring His Godhead to the Father in Heaven and to humanity on earth, having fulfilled his human destiny as the Lamb Slain Before the Foundations of the Universe, by sacrificing his life as the son of David, his human ancestor; however, Eashoa’s words augment the meaning of this passage of Scriptures. This is where Western theology misses the mark, thinking that “Jesus was calling on God not to forsake him.” But Eashoa was God, so He could not have been calling on another god. One might ask, “then why did Eashoa use the language of the Twenty-Second Psalm to declare the fulfillment of His mission on earth?” The answer is that it was in fulfillment of the Scripture’s prophesies, as always.

    Jesus never did anything except perfectly please the Father – therefore there was and is no contradiction in Him – for He cannot deny nor will He contradict Himself or the Father. Every statement He made was Truth, every utterance utterly reliable, and He never did anything expect by Holy Triunity of Faith Hope and Love.

    In other words when he said “Why have your forsaken me” our minds beset by unbelief and our own sin hear this as Him questioning God – how can He question Himself? The original sense of the saying of Jesus is that he accepts that there is no other way and that he accepts God’s will (His will is God’s will, He is God’s will made manifest in the flesh).

    You misunderstand Jesus for the same reason you misunderstand each other, and that is you are still Babylonians in your culture and craft – we have not yet twigged that the family tree of Churchianity, the great “Catholic” or Universal Church Oak tree of the knowledge of good and evil, has its roots in the spiritual rebellion of the first Adam, via Nimrod, Babylon, Pergamos and Rome where it took root and grew into the Roman Catholic Church.

    But God will soon call His people out of Babylon and into His arms, when they cry out by reason of their captivity.

    By the rivers of Babylon, where we lay down, how we wept, when we remembered Zion…

  60. Okay Greg, you got me. Haven’t studied human bio science. 🙂

    When it comes to the different types of medication and how they work, I’m lost but do try to keep up with the latest.

    My biggest concern is the long term use of medication on children and adolescents and the effect on brain chemistry – but that’s a completely different topic.

  61. @Steve and Bones

    I’ll give Bones the benefit of the doubt on this one. Probably because of some people’s experiences with how mental illness has been treated, a lot more was read into my comments and assumptions were made.

    Depression is something I’m personally familiar with, and very interested in, so I don’t mind discussing it.
    Maybe a lot was assumed about both Steve and I that isn’t quite true.

    For me, I have no problem with the medication being used in the treatment of mental illness- better say that one more time just in case I’m accused. But because I am not qualified to dispense medicine, I’m extremely interested in anything spiritual, behavioral, cognitive, dietary, lifestyle approaches that can be used in conjunction with and in SOME cases, in place of medication.

    Lastly, my copy and pasting ability is gone (sweaty fingers not good with ipad?)

    but Bones, I really concur with you about the faith of people who have mental illness.

    Just try not to take the worst possible meaning on what people say.

  62. Am I mistaken or was I just called a Babylonian?

    I’ve been called some nasty things in my time but… Babylonian? 🙂

    So why is the English translation of the Aramaic so different to everything else?

  63. You can’t be in Christ and in Babylon at the same time!

    The Aramaic version could only be a translation of translation.

  64. You have shaken your fist at God simply because I put up a few Scriptures which are attributed to Jesus. Non one prompted you to do this. Am saying, and Q is saying that this an in no way assist your recovery. It is not amateur psychology as you claim. It is Scriptural fact. You have cursed God to His face, and it is not a good place to be, especially if you are prone to depression.

    You like to think you speak for God but you really have no idea.

    I have nothing to recover from, nor am I prone to depression. My original comment was with regards to stress and anxiety which has brought about an immediate diagnosis of mental illness. Work causes stress and anxiety. Nothing to do with chemical imbalance for me. Totally different. And yes I know more than anyone on this thread the effects of depression (when mistreated) and suicide.

    You quoted a verse; I called you on it and you nor Q were able to answer.

    I haven’t done anything greater than Jesus and I don’t see how anyone can do greater works than Him, the Saviour of humanity.

    No one has done greater miracles than Jesus. I have never heard of anyone else turning water into wine or resurrecting the dead. And they sure beat leg lengthening shennigans. So it wasn’t miracles.

    It can’t mean ‘more’ either because the Greek word is different and besides no one has done more works than Jesus.

    So then what are the ‘greater works’. Evangelism? Church planting? Being born again? Receiving the Holy Spirit? Feeding the poor? Releasing the captive?

    They aren’t our works anyway but the works of Jesus Himself.

    As for your ‘testimony’. Well don’t think we don’t have a testimony of lives changed by God.

    John’s obviously using some sort of language feature (or else the gospel writer was wrong) especially when John continues

    “And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”

    Jesus plainly does not do everything you ask of Him.

    That’s not been my experience.

    And I’d like to meet the person who Jesus does all their bidding.

    That’s not cursing God. That’s knowing God and using some common sense.

  65. Personally I think John is using hyperbole to stress the importance of the coming of the Advocate as evidenced in the rest of John 14. The same with prayer.

  66. Don’t get what you mean by “called you on it”, and why do you say I couldn’t answer.
    And you don’t answer questions anyway.

    What was your question anyway? Are you saying that Jesus didn’t make the “greater works” statement?

    On the basis that you don’t know what it means or that others don’t answer you immediately?

    Okay, so you have stress and anxiety because of work? You never said that in the beginning.
    Lots of answers from the Bible for that. And lots of practical things that could be addressed too.

    One thing – if you are stressed because of work, I’d spend less of your free time fighting with people on the internet and mocking their beliefs.

    Spend the time working on practical ways to make your specific job less stressful, and also spend time praying and better ways of relaxing, If I had stress in my job, I’d spend more time exercising than huddled over a computer fighting on the internet.

  67. ““And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”

    You’re saying you really don’t believe Jesus said that?

  68. “Q, do you not accept the science that shows that depression is a chemical imbalance fo the brain?”

    That’s right. I don’t accept that all depression is the result of chemical imbalances. Neither do I accept that all depression is best treated pharmacologically.

    I should have responded earlier.

  69. In terms of miracles I haven’t done greater works than Jesus.
    Neither has He done everything I’ve asked Him.

    I still believe that Jesus made those statements and that it is incredibly important whether Jesus said those things or a gospel writer made them up.

    So you don’t believe Jesus made those two comments?

  70. So you can’t answer. This and the following verse will have to be lumped in the too hard basket.

  71. Can’t answer what?
    I just answered you!

    You asked me two questions and I answered you. Very directly.

    Unless there were other questions you’re talking about.

    But you still haven’t answered me.

    As for the “too hard basket” line, are you referring to when I said that there are some things I don’t understand so I put them in the too hard basket and decide I’ll think about them later?

    If so, yeah I do that a lot. I don’t understand every verse if scripture. I don’t fully understand the resurrection, and the spiritual dimension. To be honest I don’t understand how God always existed.

    It took me 40 years to understand things my parents said too – but they said them.

    I don’t even understand things my wife said last week. I could go on.
    But suffice it to say that every time the Devil or Bones or Wazza comes up with a verse and makes fun if it or says “Did God really say that?” (Which has familiar ring to it btw),
    I don’t decide that Jesus didn’t say it, or it isn’t inspired truth.

    So what’s your message for the world Bones?
    And how do you decide which things Jesus really said?

  72. Bones,
    This and the following verse will have to be lumped in the too hard basket.

    Speak for yourself, you bad tempered oaf.

    Here you are publicly chewing people out for believing what you can’t, for seeing what you don’t, and hoping for what you won’t.

    It wouldn’t matter what I put up as a post, you would come down on it like a ton of bricks. It wouldn’t matter what testimony anyone gave of Jesus working through believers, you would deride it, or claim it was natural causes. You have no idea what God can do because you have no expectation that he will do anything.

    You believe for scientific breakthroughs which cure many ills but not all. You believe apes turn into men. You believe the universe evolved from a mysterious, unexplained or articulated big band and matter formed from nothing all on its own.

    But you can’t believe what Jesus says.

    You called out no one on anything. You merely demonstrated your inability to take God at face value.

    You said,
    ‘You like to think you speak for God but you really have no idea.’

    I said nothing but what God says himself in his own word which you reject.

    You like to think you speak against God and you really have no idea.

    You haven’t stopped rejecting major passages of scripture.

    You said,
    ‘They aren’t our works anyway but the works of Jesus Himself.’

    Of course they are his works. I have already stated this. That is why they are greater.

    They are His works operated through believers in the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit. Of course an entire Body of people can do greater works in Jesus’ name by the Spirit of Christ simply because there are more people to be reached, more lives to be changed and more opportunities to reveal his grace when an entire body of people is working in His name than when Jesus is operating alone. That is why he said it was expedient he goes to the Father so he could send the Holy Spirit.

    I even explained what ‘greater’ means in terms of what Jesus was saying, but you completely ignored what I said and made erroneous claims in your utter ignorance. How many times have you done this?

    you simply don’t want to admit you believe anything we put up here, and I can’t for the life of me understand what the point of that is. Why on earth do you fight the gospel?

    And then you get all angry about your own unbelief because you can’t accept anyone who actually believes what God says in the Word.

    I can’t even get a handle on what someone who claims to be Christian has so much of a problem with Christians who actually believe the Word of God, and trust what Jesus says to mean exactly what he says it means.

    Maybe you don’t believe God as much as you think you do.

  73. You mock, scorn, question, criticize and attack. That club is pretty big.

    What’s your message and how will you teach people to know which recorded sayings of Jesus He actually said. Are there any at all?

  74. Bones,
    So what greater works than Jesus have you done? And does Jesus do everything you ask of Him in His Name?

    Where did anyone say greater works ‘than’ Jesus. It’s not a competition, it’s a partnership. It doesn’t compare works. He just says greater works. He does the works through us. I have already qualified this very clearly.

    And of course not everything we ask in his name will be done. It’s not some kind of formula. But there is a procedure and there are conditions.

    I have already qualified this too, but you are so elevated with pride you miss most of what is said so that you can maintain your rage against evangelicals for having the gall to believe Jesus said these things and believe the things he said.

  75. Q, to Bones,
    Okay, so you have stress and anxiety because of work? You never said that in the beginning.

    That’s exactly right. Bones had the opportunity to correct this earlier but let it run. It was Greg who brought in the discussion on depression and the conversation flowed from there. Bones even added an article on mental illness. Why wouldn’t we made the connection?

  76. Bones, this is what I wrote four days ago:

    And ‘greater’, meizas, from megas, could mean of greater quantity, which is obvious, and the reason Jesus left to send the Spirit, so there could be an army of evangelists performing His works, of greater importance (other than the cross), which of course refers to the new birth, or of greater power, which, again refers to the new birth, which is the prerequisite to eternal salvation and is far greater than healing or deliverance, or even material signs, or it could refer to greater significance, in that many believers would be, through many generations, reaching many unsaved people with the gospel of salvation.

    And of course, it is a corporate declaration, not just referring to one individual as being greater, but as of the Body of Christ, individually and corporately, being led by the Spirit of Christ to evangelise the whole world through many generations.

    But it is an empowering Word which proclaims Jesus’ intention to anoint believers with the Holy Spirit to be witnesses unto the uttermost.

    The thing is that he said it…

  77. Yep. This one of those verses where the biblical authors used hyperbole. It obviously isn’t true, it’s an exaggeration.

  78. Never was there a more self-satisfied prideful example of pig-headed denial of God’s great interaction with believers.

    As always, it’s been pointless talking to you, Bones.

  79. I really think this is the kind of conversation which grieves the Holy Spirit.

    As I read through these threads from the last few days I am actually brought to a place of mourning for the trashing of scripture which has taken place, and the mockery of those who deny the grace of God in sending His Son Jesus to save the world, and especially the words attributed to Him which were written for our sakes at the end of the age to help us continue the Great Commission in Hs name.

    It takes a lot to grieve me like this, but I feel the insensitive nature of some of the exchanges has been extreme against Christ and his gospel.

    I apologise to God and to the people here if I have caused these exchanges by contributing to them. I have tried to defend scripture and contend for the faith, but there comes a time when it is expedient to let folly end in its own delusion and hand it over to God.

  80. We’ll never get anywhere if every time we come to some difficult passage, or even a contradiction you go off in a huff and unleash a tirade of admonishment like some uptight school-teacher in front of a class of children.

    You don’t speak for God, Steve. Just cause you are grieved dosent mean the Holy Spirit is. I think He’s bigger than that.

    There is a bloody great big elephant in this room, but every time we point to him – you go “Oh, how could you! You mock and scorn! God will not love you any more!”

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