Because I am Christian, I Stand with Israel – and I have the Car magnet to prove it


Dear Wazza,

As a Bible believing Christian, I accept the Holy Scriptures to be the infallible Word of God. This should not be a controversial statement, but sadly in this day and age it has become so. Some of our fellow Christians doubt the truth of the Word, especially the certainty of God’s eternal promises to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Consequently, when God mandates us to stand as watchman on the walls of Jerusalem and to bless Israel in action, word and deed, many no longer believe these commands to be binding.

Anti-Israel forces have aggressively seized on this biblical distortion to drive a wedge between the Church and Israel. And they are making progress! Anti-Israel groups have made significant inroads into our churches, conventions, and publications with this contemptible propaganda. Allow me to cite a few examples:

  • The National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA has distributed over 45 million copies of a brochure titled “Why We Should Be Concerned About Christian Zionism.”
  • The Church of Scotland recently issued a report divorcing the Jewish people from the land of Israel. The report contended that “promises about the land of Israel were never intended to be taken literally, or as applying to a defined geographical territory.”
  • Over the last 9 years, seven of the largest mainline Protestant denominations, including the Presbyterian Church USA, the United Methodist Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, have held votes on divesting funds from Israel.

Having enjoyed such success with the mainline denominations, anti-Israel organizations such as Sabeel and the Bethlehem Bible College are now targeting evangelical churches. As a result, the list of evangelical critics of Israel is growing quickly.

When CUFI on Campus attempted to hold an event at one of the most prestigious Christian colleges in the United States, Wheaton College, they faced enormous pressure from faculty and students to move the event off campus.

Get your Car Magnet your gift of $5 or more

As pro-Israel Christians, it is important now more than ever to stand up and speak up for Israel. We must combat these deceptions with the truth in God’s Word; for Zion’s Sake, we should not and shall not remain silent!

It is Christians United for Israel’s responsibility, as the largest pro-Israel organization in the United States, to push back against these anti-Israel propagandists. We must, in one clear voice, demonstrate that Bible-believing Christians stand with Israel and the Jewish people. We must educate other Christians that if they believe the Bible they should support Israel especially in these critical times.

CUFI’s “Because I am Christian, I Stand with Israel” campaign is an excellent opportunity for us to make a public statement about our faith as Christians and our commitment to the State of Israel. For a small donation of $5 or more, you can proudly display a “Because I am Christian, I Stand with Israel” car magnet on your vehicle so the thousands of people you pass know that Bible believing Christians stand with Israel.

May the Lord’s blessings be with you and yours as you bless the Jewish people.

Pastor John Hagee
National Chairman – Christians United for Israel

59 thoughts on “Because I am Christian, I Stand with Israel – and I have the Car magnet to prove it

  1. In the interests of balanced and fair reporting, here is an alternate view from Bethel Ministries :


    NOTICE: This writer does not advocate illegal discrimination or racism or violation of civil rights of Jews or any other group. This article and website is NOT anti-Semitic. Christians should love the Jews and pray for their salvation.

    It is a lie from Satan that Jews are still God’s chosen people and many pastors embrace and teach Satan’s lie that Christians should support the State of Israel (Zionism). Also, another lie from Satan is the teaching that God blesses those who bless Israel and He curses those who curse them. (That has not been true for more than 1900 years.)

    Jews claim to be God’s chosen people, but they were His chosen people. Only the elect of the Jews (which is an extremely small minority) will be saved.

    Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate, pronounced judgment on the Jews for rejecting Him:

    The Jews generally rejected Jesus, the true Messiah, therefore Jesus cursed the fig tree, which represents Israel, saying, “May you never bear fruit again!” (Mat. 21:18).

    When the Jewish chief priests and elders questioned Jesus’ authority He said to them, “I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people [Gentiles] who will produce its fruit” (Mat. 21:43).

    When Jesus told a parable to the Jewish chief priests, scribes, and elders (Lk. 20:19), they knew He was talking about them when He said that the vine-growers, to whom the owner had sent his son, killed his son. Then in the parable Jesus asked what will the owner of the vineyard do to those who killed his son, to which He said, “He will come and destroy these vine-growers [Jews] and will give the vineyard to others [Gentiles].”

    After hearing this and knowing that Jesus was talking about them, those Jews “tried to lay hands on Him that very hour…and they watched Him, and sent spies who pretended to be righteous, in order that they might catch Him in some statement, so as to deliver Him up to the rule and the authority of the governor” (Lk. 20:9-20).A loving, longsuffering and merciful God sent Jesus to “His own [the Jews], and His own received Him not” (John 1:11). The reason that the Jewish prophet John (the Baptizer) came baptizing with water was to reveal Jesus to Israel (John 1:31). And Jesus said that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel (Mat. 15:24).

    Near the end of Jesus’ earthly ministry Jesus said, ‘O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. (Mat. 23:37-38).

    Paul quoted Isaiah in his epistle to the Christians in Rome, “Concerning Israel he [Isaiah] says, ‘All day long I [God] have held out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people [the Jews]'” (Rom. 10:21).

    After the apostle Paul had preached the Gospel to Jews in cities throughout Asia and was, for the most part, rejected by them, he turned to the Gentiles and ministered to them.

    Near the end of Paul’s ministry, when he was in Rome under house arrest, he spoke to a large gathering of Jews. Paul explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

    The great apostle concluded his sermon by saying, “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your [Jewish] forefathers when He said through Isaiah the prophet: ‘Go to this people and say, ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn and I would heal [save] them.’ Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen” (Acts 28:17-28).

    When the Jews cried out over and over to crucify Jesus, and Pilate wanted to release Him, all the Jews said, “Let His blood be on us and on our children!” (Mat. 27:25).

    Jesus prophesied God’s destruction of Jerusalem that would take place in 70 A.D. at the hands of the Roman general Titus (Mat. 24:1-2; Lk. 19:41-44). According to Josephus, the first-century Jewish historian, more than 1,000,000 Jews died when Jerusalem was laid siege to and destroyed as Jesus had prophesied 40 years earlier.

    That horrific suffering was second only to the suffering of the twentieth century Holocaust under Hitler. This was because of the general rejection of Christ by the Jews, and until this day they still reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Savior and the only way to heaven.

    Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man [including Jews] cometh unto the Father, but by Me” (Jn. 14:6). There are very few Jews today who will repent of their sins and be born again and receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and only way to God to Father.

    In 614 A.D. the Persians captured Jerusalem and massacred the inhabitants. The so-called “Christian” Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099. Several times since then Jerusalem has fallen into the hands of Moslems and “Christians.” There is no reason to believe that the Crusaders were truly born-again Christians, anymore than the vast majority of Roman Catholics.

    The Jews have continued to reject Christ throughout the centuries and the last great slaughter of Jews was during the Holocaust. It is claimed that six million Jews were killed in a few short years under the hand of Hitler (the number is probably exaggerated). (Also killed were Christ-rejecting Gypsies, homosexuals, and a few others.) All of this mass-killing took place as a sovereign and just God looked on.

    Paul in Romans 9:27 referred to Isaiah when he wrote, “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, [only] a remnant shall be saved.”

    The apostle Paul (a born-again Jew) said that the minds of the Jews have been made dull and to this day a “veil” covers their hearts when the Old Covenant is read, and only in Christ is it taken away (2 Cor. 3:14-16).

    Paul wrote concerning the Jews, “You who brag about the Law, do you dishonor God by breaking the Law? As it is written: ‘God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you'” (Rom. 2:23-24).

    Justin Martyr, in 116 A.D. wrote, “The Jews were behind all the persecutions of the Christians. They wandered through the country everywhere hating and undermining the Christian faith.”

    Albert Einstein, a Jew, and an atheist said in a letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind dated 1/3/1954 that Jews were not God’s chosen people. The renowned physicist wrote, “For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions.” Einstein said, “And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people.” He wrote, “The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.”

    Concerning the Jews Einstein wrote, “As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups…I cannot see anything ‘chosen’ about them.”

    President Harry S. Truman wrote in his diary on 7/21/1947, “The Jews, I find, are very, very selfish…[W]hen they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment of the underdog.”

    Reportedly, in 1977 Israel passed a law that prohibits anyone, including Christians, from leading the Jews to change their religion.

    What should be the attitude of Christians toward Christ-rejecting Jews?

    Christians should love the Jews just as we should love the heathen in Africa. Paul wrote that “all Israel shall be saved” (Rom. 11:26), but the apostle also wrote that “though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, [only] a remnant shall be saved” (Rom. 9:27).

    All true Israel is only a remnant. During the Great Tribulation 144,000 Jews will be saved, but this is only a small remnant compared to the millions of Jews living today. The Christ-rejecting Jews are no different than anyone else who has not repented of their sins and been born again. Pray for the Jews, love them, ask God to have mercy on them, and share the true Gospel with those who will listen.

  2. Paul seems to disagree with Bethel Ministries.

    Romans 11
    1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
    3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?
    4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
    5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
    7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
    8 Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”
    9 And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always.”
    11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
    12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
    15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
    16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
    18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
    20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
    22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
    24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
    25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
    26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
    27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

  3. Romans 9:27 does not mean only a remnant will be saved – otherwise Paul would contradict himself later saying all Israel shall be saved. I never ceases to amaze me how people can swallow camels and strain out gnats.

    Again the Aramaic brings this out beautifully, with a little help from the Holy Spirit. Unless He breathes on the scriptures and makes them come alive, they are merely a dead letter. But even the King Jimmy can get the message across. God can talk through an Ass if He wants to, or a burning bush, or a Bible…

    27. Isaiah preached regarding the Children of Israel, that even if their number became like the sand in the sea, certain of them will be [destined] for eternal Life.
    28. The Manifestation will be developed and spread, and they shall make everyone worship our Lord on earth.
    29. And like the thing that Isaiah had foretold,
    “That if the Almighty Lord had not increased
    the number of the ordained,
    We would have become like Sodom,
    and would have resembled Gomorah.”

    OK, so certain of them would be destined to be the remnant which would keep the Word alive, as they had always been, but in the NT context they became people of The Way, to be known as Christians. There has always been an “Israeli” contingent who have kept the faith alive and as the Seed of Abraham (Christ) would become as innumerable as the sand in the sea and the stars in the sky (specking of our humanity and our divinity).

    Now to increase the number of the elect does not mean to multiply them numerically but to amp up the Power in them – imagine a bank account, OK, I am going to increase the number of your bank account to enable you to do more – get the picture?

    The Lord told me back in 1983, that the time would come when apostasy would be the order of the day, everyone preferring their own opinion to the Light. This is why we miss such harmonies in scripture and instead find incongruities in their place.

    The Israel of the Spirit is the NT Israel. But the OT Israel will not be forsaken either.

    25. I wish for you to know, my brethren, this sermon, so that you may not be set in your own opinions, that the blindness of heart affects a small portion of Israel, until there has entered all the nations in their entirety. (All as in ALL)
    26. And then all Israel Lives, as it is written in Scriptures, (All as in ALL)

    “There shall come from Zion a Savior
    and he shall take away the abomination from Jacob.
    27. “And then they shall receive the Covenant from me,
    When thus their sins are forgiven.”

    28. Through the Revelation of God then, they are enemies because of you. And through Election they are beloved because of the ancestors.
    29. For God does not renege on His endowments and calling.
    30. For whereas you also were not in communion with God from the beginning, and now you are consecrated because of their estrangement,
    31. Thus they also did not recognize now the mercies shown you, so as there would be mercies upon them too.
    32. For God combined all human beings in non-communion, so that He may be merciful to every human being. (All as in ALL)

    33. Oh, the depth and wealth and wisdom and knowledge of God, that no human being can wipe out their debt and follow on the heels of his ways.

    34. “For who understands the Omniscience of the Lord?
    Or who can be His councilor?
    35. “And who first gave him righteousness and received it back from him?”
    36. For all is from him and everyone is through him and everything is in his hands,
    To him glory and blessing, to [the end of] the universe, of all the universes, amen.

    Again, ALL AS IN ALL!!! It’s like beating your brick against a head wall sometimes…

  4. Got your car magnet yet Steve?

    Bethel Ministries exegesis is of course racist and anti-semitic – it partially denies and partially blames the Jews for the Holocaust. Bethel Ministries is probably one sad man running a web-site from his basement.

    Both Bethel and CUFI and Bible-believing Evangelical Ministries. Its just that they interpret the Bible differently and come up with wildly different and opposite conclusions. Bethel uses the same book of Romans and you do Steve, except Bethel thinks Paul agrees with him – whereas you think Paul dosent agree.

    Bethel’s exegesis is typical of the type of theology espoused by Evangelicals and Fundamentalists prior to the war and the establishment of the state of Israel. Since the war the prevailing theology has been pro-Israel. But there are still remnants of the old theology doing the rounds – some of the commenters visiting this blog have had similar views.

    Both Bethel and CUFIs views are black-and-white, rely on passages from the Bible and are completely wrong. It can be just as racist to stand with one people, whatever they may do, as to oppose them. Both decisions are based solely on race.

  5. 28. The Manifestation (“Word”) will be developed and spread, and they shall make everyone worship our Lord on earth.

    Where we must be very careful as to Israel is to remember that though such illuminated mega Masons like “Nuke’ em” Truman would find Stalin and Hitler to be less odious than the Jews, and presumably the Dervishes who dipped their hats in Christian blood (like the Shriners) or the Catholic Church and the multiplied of millions it has martyred…

    Truman was a higher ranked mason than Roosevelt, hence he was the real President. This is common in politics, it is not the front man but the second in command who usually calls the shots. This is often evident in Churches. A while back, a friend and I asked for use of a Presbyterian Church next door to pray in. The minister was only too happy but had to run it past the Presbytery. When the bloke who was the real power behind the throne tried to do a Masonic handshake on me I straightened it into a regular shake and he looked at me like a snake and we were later told our presence was not desired. Now all that stands there is grass. But I digress.

    Consider who is behind Obama? Joe “Jew” Biden, just biding his time.

    But what we must be so watchful of is to not be part of the affair when the whole world makes the Jews the scapegoat again. Blame it on the Bankers, blame it on the Jews. There is a very nasty curse upon all who line up to judge Israel – it sounds like a Zombie Apocalypse. Zech 14:12

    Judging is God’s job – we just make a mess of it.

  6. We’re ALL God’s chosen people. Jew, Muslim, Christian, American, Arab, conservative, liberal.

    I doubt that God chose Israel specifically above all the other nations.

    I would say Israel chose Yahweh.

  7. Bones,
    I doubt that God chose Israel specifically above all the other nations.

    The reason God chose Israel was to fulfil His promise to Abraham of the Seed coming from his loins.

    They were not only chosen, but God formed Israel through Abraham’s lineage.

    I would say Israel chose Yahweh.

    In fact, Israel, on many occasions, rejected God, not least before they went into captivity, and, of course, when they crucified Christ. God, many times, had to intervene to bring Israel back on course until the time the Seed came into the earth.

    Not only was Israel God’s chosen nation to carry the Seed, they were given the Covenants, the Promises and the Law which kept them until the Promised Seed arrived in Christ.

    God has not fully rejected Israel, and has said that there would be a remnant who would follow after Christ. He has also said that the pillars of the New Jerusalem would comprise of the twelve tribes, which indicates a restoration of Israel in His purposes.

    Romans goes on to say that there would come a time when some from Israel would be grafted back in through jealousy of the Gentiles and through acceptance of the Messiah.

    Many Old and New Testament prophecies pertain to the restoration of a remnant of Israel.

    “Has God cast away His people? Certainly not!”

  8. Israel was polytheistic.

    There’s no doubt that much of Israel’s history was revisionist, written by the scribes around 600 BCE. After the disasters of Exile and centuries of occupation, the scribes rewrote Israel’s history.

  9. I agree, they probably used several different source documents from slightly different traditions – Eg. The parts where God is referred to as ‘Yahweh’ as opposed to the ones where He is referred to as ‘Elohim’ – as per the Graf-Welhausen hypothesis. The combining of these sources helped to establish one common centralised religion for Israel.

    But long before even this editing was done, there were other edits done. The patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were probably originally the Patriarchs of different tribes. By making the story that they were Father, Son and Grandson it helped unite the different tribes.

    Similarly there are other stories such as that of Ishmael which helped people to understand why they hate the Arabs so much.

  10. Wazza,
    The patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were probably originally the Patriarchs of different tribes.

    So which of these tribes did Jesus come from?

  11. Honestly guys, why don’t you simply ask God – I did. LOL. I asked, “What is with the Jews?”

    The answer, “I had to breed a people on the one hand so faithful and determined that they would believe that the Promise would come to pass, and so utterly diligent to uphold it, yet on the other hand capable of killing their own God.” And of course don’t forget that the Sanhedrin and Herodian hierarchy were dominated by Edomites (Esau) and Jesus was of the lineage of Jacob.

    They were family Wazza, and family are as family are – dysfunctional and dystopian. However, the family that preys together, stays together, like the ruling families of the world

    And Bone, Paul quite plainly says that a certain blindness of heart afflicts a portion of Israel, until all the nations come in, in their fullness, and then ALL (how much?) ALL Israel shall be saved.

    You know, the trouble with the Francis is a Sissy sort of poverty mentality, is that it is such an anathema to the richness of God. There is enough wealth in the world for pretty much everyone and anyone living like a king – it it is the greedy and avaricious who are the problem, and the answer is not Communism – the answer is Christ.

  12. Steve :

    So which of these tribes did Jesus come from?

    If you tell me which of the Geneologies of Jesus is correct, (Matt’s or Luke’s) – and then tell me why either of them matter because Joe wasnt his father – then I will tell you which tribe He belongs to.

  13. Well, Jesus, we know, was of the tribe of Judah, but it’s not clear from your assumptions where Judah derived from if Abraham was not his great grandfather as you claim.

    Is this important? Indeed it is, because Abraham was promised that the Seed would be of his loins.

    We are told that Judah was of Israel, which was the new name given to Jacob by God.

    If Abraham and Isaac, as you claim, were of different tribes to Israel, we have an anomaly.

    Even if Jesus was not born of Joseph, we know he was born of Mary, who was almost certainly of Judah.

    It is much more certain that Abraham was the father of Isaac who was the father of Jacob (Israel), who was the father of Judah, from which tribe Jesus came through Mary.

    What you and Bones have done, again, is so completely revise Scripture that the plan of redemption is totally trashed.

    Bones claims to have read the entire Bible. He may have read it, but h didn’t put very much of it together, and can’t work out how it actually seamlessly creates a wonderful tapestry of the coming of the Messiah.

    I don’t know what you have read of the Bible, but it is evident you haven’t clue about the way it works.

    I think, in fact, you guys spend more time reading speculative books about the Bible, and little time actually in the Bible. That is evident by what you do and don’t believe.

  14. Now Greg, what if, just say IF, it is actually by the Spirit of God that I get my revelations? And if by the Spirit I bring out Truth, and if by the Spirit I be filled and not with shit, then you are calling the Spirit of God shit, and I would not want to be so silly as to do such a thing to you, why would you do it to me? In fact, I would confidently say that you are in fact blaspheming the Holy Spirit, just as MacArthur is.

    It is like your disavowal of miracles and other operations of the Spirit simply because they do not happen to you, which puts you alongside such Spirit denying and contradicting (blaspheming) luminaries as John MacArthur. I would not want to you to stumble at my meat when you are in need of milk. Just be a pet and do yourself a favor – agree with me in the name of Jesus that if it is by God that I receive my Light, that you will see it too, and if the light in me is really darkness, that God will open my eyes to that. Agreed? Its so simply really – and we all get to grow thereby.

    None of you, except perhaps Bones, sees through the Bible trap. I could explain it to you but until you learn to think outside of your clearly defined masonic square, you won’t get it. The net result is that the Bible has been elevated to the status of the fourth person of the Godhead, as a friend of mine says. When God, by His Spirit, breathes on the Scriptures and makes them come alive, then may come Revelation of the same, but I at times get Revelations of God and then He shows me where to look in the book.

    And if you construct doctrines out of the words in the Book which are contradictory to Christ, this then too is contradictory to Christ and is blasphemy (Lax or injurious speech, aka empty words and or curse words).

    But Paul did not have a Bible and neither did Moses – they had a relationship with God, out of which came the books. By closing off the Canon, the Church restricted the freedom of the Spirit and turned Christianity from a living thing into a dead religion, and it has gotten darker and deader ever since, though it thinks that it is the light of the world, and ironically, in many ways it is the light of the world – that is, the world’s light and not the Light which shines in the face of Jesus.

    Just do yourself a favor Greg, be gracious, be a Gamaliel even, but don’t fall into the trap of gainsaying the Truth just because it does not concur with you conceptual continuity.

    The religious demons love it when people run to the Bible to look for comfort and support, rather than cleave to The Living Word, Jesus, and the ONE TEACHER the Holy Spirit of God, for, as John said, in the Bible no less, you need not that any man should teach you, and to juxtapose Isaiah, otherwise it will be to you vomit upon vomit, apostasy on apostasy (and that is in the Book to).

  15. Oh and Greg, I recently encountered a Christian academic from the States who was utterly convinced that there is no such thing as a personal devil and it was all in our minds, and he had all the scriptures to back up his supposition. I suggested that he perhaps needed a one on one with the devil to clear up the matter such as I had experienced. I suggested that perhaps the reason why he was so hell-bent on proving the Devil did not exist, had to do with his inability to deal with the Devil.

    He told me I was crazy and did not know what I was talking about, so I gave him up to Satan.

    It is one thing to have a derailed faith, it is quite another to derail the faith of others, to cause any of these little ones to stumble. That is why we should not many of us be teachers, knowing that we shall incur the greater condemnation – the function of a teacher in the Body of Christ is to connect you with the Head and they are not by whom or from whom we are fed. If you eat from the storehouses of others you will get their tares and their grain, and if you drink waters from their sullied cisterns, then mixture will prevail.

    We are to eat and to drink out of our own store, and the Teacher, the Holy Spirit, will teach you of ALL things and lead you into ALL Truth. You have the Designer and Creator of the Universe of Universes inside of you. Contemplate on that awhile, wonder at His Great Gift, and wonder at how you might please the One who holds everything in the Palms of His Hands. What can you give Him back, but everything?

  16. And here, just for you Greg, is what God told me about Israel. He said that they had “made” themselves out to be the Messiah Nation, the Light of the World, and that by reason of this, that the whole world would turn upon them and come up against them – BUT – I was to have absolutely no part in this in any way – he was very specific – he told me I was not to judge Israel or the Jews in any way, that they were His business to deal with and that all who came against Israel would suffer terrible judgments.

    So I mentioned the revelation to some believing Jews I deal with in Israel – who told me “This is exactly what the Rabbis are saying too”. Now why do Jews hear me Greg? They think I am one of them as by the Spirit I speak to them and I have respect due to having been involved in a major medical miracle with a prominent Jewish diamond merchant. The connection was made when I sent a letter to a diamond merchant, introducing myself, and he invited me to a conference in LA he was hosting. When we met, we spoke for a while and then he told me, “When you letter arrived, I screwed it up to throw it in the bin, but then a little voice said to me, ‘Give him a go, I want you to help him’, and now that I meet you, I like you, you smell like an honest man to me.”

    A while later I rang him to tell him of a marketing plan which had come to me by inspiration – there was silence on the phone – he then said, “It is as if you can read my mind – I am sitting here outlining the same marketing program.” Isaac Mostovic is considered to be a marketing genius and is a visiting fellow at the University of Northumbria, ironically where my Jewish roots come from.

    He speaks 7 language fluently, is a Sensei in Karate, has 5 kids and runs three businesses that know of and learns a new language every two years. He also hears God, like I do. I used to wonder why he did not treat me like a Christian, until God told me that Isaac sees me as another Jew, as he knows I hear from God and speak to his heart and by my hand God raised his father-in-law up from a complete paralysis and being kept alive by machine. Isaac is a Gamaliel like character.

    Greg, they said of Jesus that He was mad and had a demon and cast out demons by the power of the Prince of demons. What are you saying about me that is in essence any different? One thing we may be certain of is that our judgment of others tells much more about us than them, for we judge ourselves, and if we did not judge others, then we would not be judged. Its in the Book…take a fresh, child-like look…

  17. So, in other words, if people don’t agree with what Ian says they must be blasphemers.

    I thought it was God and His Word we needed to agree with, not unteachable rebels.

    No one is claiming that he Word is the fourth member of the Godhead. John seems to think He is more than this.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    If this was my thread I’d cut Ian’s rant out for again taking us away form the actual subject.

    Maybe it’s time for Ian to be cast adrift into his la-la land so he can not get so upset when people find his self-elevating arrogance so offensive.

  18. Steve, I think there’s something in your eye. I just need to get a chainsaw and crane to get rid of it.

    “Even if Jesus was not born of Joseph,” What do you mean ‘If’? Was there a virgin birth or wasn’t there?

    The prophecy to Abraham was “In your seed all the nations shall be blessed”. No mention of a messiah. Galatians makes the connection to Jesus, but it is a literary/prophetic one – not a historical one.

    But Jesus is not technically of Abraham’s seed. The Jews at that time did not trace lineage through the Mother’s line. Elaborate geneologies of the sort given by Luke and Matthew were never meant to be taken literally. They are stories meant to teach spiritual lessons, not historical or scientific ones.

  19. I’d rather you didn’t chop up my sentences to create a new context for what i’m saying, wazza.

    I know you know what I am saying, but you can’t believe much in the Bible so you have to resort to reconstruction or deconstruction to fit it into your own worldview.

    Abraham was called the ‘father of a multitude’. That’s what his name was changed to by God and what it actually means. The Seed is Christ, who is a direct descendent of Abraham through Mary.

    ‘Galatians makes the connection to Jesus, but it is a literary/prophetic one – not a historical one.’

    Very convenient, and very evasive of you to think this. It means you can save yourself a whole lot of having to believe what the Bible says.

    It also tells me you don’t understand one thing Paul is talking about in Galatians.

    If you can’t grasp the significance of the seed-line from Abraham to Christ through Israel you will never understand the pattern and eloquence of Scripture.

    It is also amazing that neither you nor Bones has picked up the point that, despite what Paul writes about Jesus as the Messiah in Galatians and elsewhere, ad his clear connection to the Promises made to Abraham, the Jews do not believe what Paul says and are still waiting for the Messiah, whom they believe will come through the bloodline of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

    They are, as Paul reminds us, spiritually blinded for a season, and cannot see, like you, the significance of the promises made to Abraham and the reality of Christ being the Seed.

    I almost pity you.

  20. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

    Very allegorical! Not!

  21. No, but its an argument based on absence of a plural-form.

    Not very convincing, unless you are already convinced.

    Seed (without the s) can also be used as a plural.

  22. the Jews do not believe what Paul says and are still waiting for the Messiah, whom they believe will come through the bloodline of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

    How many people can trace their ancestry back to the Bronze Age?

    Aren’t they just saying that the Messiah would be Jewish eg Jesus?

  23. wazza,
    The Jews at that time did not trace lineage through the Mother’s line.

    I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”

    But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.” So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

    it is God’s tracing of lineage which counts, not men’s. Jesus was born of a virgin who was of Israel, and of Judah.

    We know Jesus was of the tribe of Judah, who was of Jacob/Israel. You have avoided saying where Judah came from because you know that you are wrong in your claims that there were three separate tribes who formed an alliance called Israel.

    The truth is that Israel was the tribe. Abraham was not. Nor was Isaac. They were father and grandfather to Jacob who became Israel. The tribes came from Israel, and were descendants of Abraham and Isaac.

    According the Scripture, the criteria for the coming of the Son of Man was to be born of a woman, born of a virgin. There is no other way he could have had a human lineage, since he is also the Son of God.

    All of your humanistic detours mean nothing in Gods grew scheme of things.

    Galatians 3 is one of the most beautiful, elegant, eloquent and powerful passages of Scripture. You attempt to dismiss it as having a passing comment about Abraham and the Seed, when in act it is discussing the significance of the Law versus grace an faith, and the promises made to Abraham by God.

    But Jesus is not technically of Abraham’s seed.

    Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

  24. Wazza,
    No, but its an argument based on absence of a plural-form.

    Well now you are arguing with Paul, whom I quoted. he is the one who gives it the singular form.

    Yo are saying you are not convinced by Paul’s argument, I take it.

    I can’t help you with that. It is what it is. Paul says of one Seed, and not of many, and makes that Seed Christ.

    Maybe you haven’t read Galatians. I quoted from Galatians 3.

  25. Bones, I don’t think the Jews have a problem with tracing their lineage through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel.

    It is you and wazza who are arguing against them.

    How about you take a trip to Israel and put your theories to one of their Synagogues!

  26. A lot of synagogues wouldnt have a problem with this theory. Especially as it is based on Hebrew Biblical scholarship :

    The Cambridge Companion to the Bible makes the following comment on the biblical stories of the patriarchs:

    Yet for all that these stories maintain a distance between their world and that of their time of literary growth and composition, they reflect the political realities of the later periods. Many of the narratives deal with the relationship between the ancestors and peoples who were part of Israel’s political world at the time the stories began to be written down (eighth century B.C.E.). Lot is the ancestor of the Transjordanian peoples of Ammon and Moab, and Ishmael personifies the nomadic peoples known to have inhabited north Arabia, although located in the Old Testament in the Negev. Esau personifies Edom (36:1), and Laban represents the Aramean states to Israel’s north. A persistent theme is that of difference between the ancestors and the indigenous Canaanites… In fact, the theme of the differences between Judah and Israel, as personified by the ancestors, and the neighboring peoples of the time of the monarchy is pressed effectively into theological service to articulate the choosing by God of Judah and Israel to bring blessing to all peoples.”[36]

    According to Martin Noth, a scholar of the Hebrew Bible, the narratives of Isaac date back to an older cultural stage than that of the West-Jordanian Jacob.[34] At that era, the Israelite tribes were not yet sedentary. In the course of looking for grazing areas, they had come in contact in southern Palestine with the inhabitants of the settled countryside.[34] The biblical historian, A. Jopsen, believes in the connection between the Isaac traditions and the north, and in support of this theory adduces Amos 7:9 (“the high places of Isaac”).[34]

    But of course Steve, you know better than all these scholars. You read the Bible and believe the stories within – simply because they are in the Bible. They use other sources of knowledge such as History, languages and cultural and literary studies.

  27. And Paul clearly knew that ‘seed’ was a collective noun, because he uses it Galatians 3:29 to refer to all believers.

    No, I don’t find it convincing as an argument. It is a rhetorical device – that is all.

  28. What you mean is that you believe it is a rhetorical device. Most other Christians do not.

    And I doubt very much that your theory would go down in most synagogues.

    The fact that you made light of what Paul is clearly saying about the Seed tells any evangelical that you are reading passages of scripture as if they are a novel, not as Scripture, which is defined as God-breathed and profitable.

    Of course we are called seed of Abraham, plural. We are of Christ who is the Seed singular, promised to Abraham, the father of a multitude, who is also the father of Isaac and the grandfather of Jacob/Israel.

    I’m very sorry you are obliged by your lack of belief to miss what Paul is actually saying. It is marvellous doctrine and brilliant theology.

    Do you really, for one second, believe that Paul built his doctrine on mere rhetorical devices?

    I think Q got it right when he urged you, Bones and Greg to actually outline what the gospel is according to you, and how much of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, can be relied on, would be considered by you as part of the actual canon, or reflect the will and Word of God.

    It seems not to matter what anyone says evangelically, one of the three of you will come up with some reason for it not being worth considering.

    Would any of you recommend throwing the Bible away altogether?

  29. Wazza,
    You know better than all these scholars. You read the Bible and believe the stories within – simply because they are in the Bible. They use other sources of knowledge such as History, languages and cultural and literary studies.

    I hope so.

    Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. That is Scripture, by the way.

    I don’t give a rip what so called experts say if they do not know the first thing about what Paul is clearly telling anyone who is actually born again, has the Spirit, and is taught by Him.

    The Word of God makes perfect sense to anyone who actually believes Jesus, reads it in faith, and applies it.

    It is only the sceptic who can make such a hash of faith.

    If you can’t grasp what Paul is saying in context with all Scripture, I can’t help you, mainly because you obviously don’t consider what I say to be worth a thing.

    Fine. I don’t mind. I wonder, though, that you haven’t considered that I might also have looked at various theological stances, read respected commentaries, studied the Greek and Hebrew lexicons, attended Bible School for three years, sat under respected ministers, discussed doctrine with a variety of ministries including mainline, traditional and even Catholic influences, etc, etc. No. I know nothing. I’m just a misled Pentecostal! So don’t take my word for anything.

    Only time spent in the sword with the Holy Spirit leading you will deal with this problem.

    But you don’t even see it as a problem because you are convinced that the so called scholars are right because they have read the same speculative accounts and theories that you have, and you value their word above the Word of God.

    The thing is, the Word actually works when you put it into practice. That, surely, is the litmus test, not theories from unbelievers and doubters.

  30. Look, once more and then I will give up.

    Pauls argument is that the original promise to abraham ( through his ‘seed’ all nations are to be blessed) indicates one singular person as the seed. Simply because it didnt say ‘seeds’

    This is clearly wrong, you cant use the absence of the ‘s’ to infer singular. Paul knew this because a few verses later he uses ‘seed’ to refer to a group of people.

    It is a huge stretch to say this is referring to one man, and then another huge stretch to say it must be Jesus.

    So we have Paul making an argument that is literally wrong, he knew it was wrong and then stretching it to fit Jesus. It is a rhetorical device. His audience at the time would have known that.

  31. Just about every commentary on the subject would disagree with you, wazza. I don’t think you’re looking at it correctly.

    What Paul addresses in Galatians 3 is the promise made to Abraham. He was promised a son. This son would be the carrier of the seed-line which would lead to the Messiah, who is called the Seed. Paul is making the point that the Seed being referred to was Christ. The seed which follows is anyone who receives Christ.

    Galatians 3
    16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

    That Seed is the seed of the woman who would be be bruised by the seed of the serpent but crush its head (Genesis 3:15). In other words God promised a Seed who would defeat the one who had power over death, that is the devil (Hebrew 2:14). This is clearly Christ who defeated the devil at the cross.

    Anyone who receives Christ becomes the seed, plural, of Abraham, through faith. No one could become Abraham’s seed, plural, until they could put on Christ, that is, be born again.

    Galatians 3
    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    If you are Christ’s you are the seed of Abraham.

    But you could not be Christ’s until Christ had come.

    So Paul is giving us the progression. He starts with the promised Seed, singular, who is Christ, and concludes with the seed, plural, who are all those who are in Christ through faith in Him.

    Now you can disengage if you like, but this would not make you correct, nor will it be a very good argument to support your theory that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were separate tribes which joined to create Israel. That is a complete nonsense, does not match Scripture, and is destroyed by Paul in this passage. If you would like me to produce other passages which also wreck your theory I will oblige, but this one will suffice.

  32. And don’t forget that Christ is also the Body as well as the Head, so the singular and the plural are as one, but can only exist through the singular who is the Son of God Christ. If there were no Head there could be no Body.

    Colossians 1
    17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
    18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    You an split hairs and say that this makes it all plural, but there is no fruit without first sowing the single seed, but the fruit of this seed produces more seed. That is true in the natural, and spiritually.

    Either way, we are told in Scripture that Christ is of Abraham and of Judah.

    The natural lineage of Judah from Abraham is through Isaac, Abraham’s son, and Jacob/Israel who is Isaac’s son.

    Hebrews 11
    17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
    18 of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”

  33. Romans 9
    1 ¶ I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
    2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
    3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
    4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
    5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
    6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
    7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
    8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
    9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
    10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
    11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
    12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
    13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
    15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
    16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

  34. Would any of you recommend throwing the Bible away altogether?

    No, not ever…they can look quite nice up on the book case…especially the big leather bound ones…I personaly ahve 5 versions in my bookcase…people think I’m very into the bible…got them tricked hey?

  35. Just about every commentary on the subject would disagree with you, wazza. I don’t think you’re looking at it correctly

    Steve, its interesting that you appeal to experts when you think they support your argument, but dismiss them as knowing nothing of the bible when you think that they dont support your argument.

    There are plenty of commentaries that agree with my position.

    Perhaps no verse in the entire Pauline corpus has opened the apostle up to charges of arbitrariness and faulty argument more than the one cited above, Galatians 3:16. It is repeatedly argued that ‘seed’ (Heb. zera’; Gr. sperma) could not be expected in a plural form, in any case, so the apostle’s argument is illegitimate. Moreover, in the Genesis context it is clear that ‘seed’ was plural in its referent: it would be as plentiful as the dust of the earth (13:16) and as numerous as the stars of the sky (15:5). Indeed, Abraham’s seed was to suffer as strangers in a land not theirs, and be afflicted 400 years (15:13). This seed was to enjoy God’s covenant over a course of generations (17:7); this was the foundation of the circumcision of “every male” (17:9-14).

    In view of all this, it is argued, there can be no doubt that Paul was illegitimately latching onto the singular form of a clearly collective noun in order to make an argumentative point, ignoring not only lexical meaning but also scriptural context. He was robbing Abraham of his children, in order to make Christ his sole seed. “In the light of the narrative context of the passage itself, this reading [i.e. Paul’s reading of Gen. 13:15 and 17:8] seems far from natural.”1 What Paul has done is “allegorical in the sense that it no longer takes into account the original meaning of the words and has overstepped the limits set to allegory in rabbinical hermeneutics.”2 His reasoning is “highly artificial,” an “implausible argument.”3

    Not that I was familiar with these commentaries, but it is no surprise that they make these arguments – because it is as plain as the nose on your face.

  36. It is plain to see that the writer of the above Anal-Isis has little of indeed no relationship with the Word.

    1. O, thoughtless Galatians,* who has accursed you, that behold, like someone put the blinders before your eyes,* [you have lost sight of] Jesus Christ crucified?
    2. This alone I wish to know of you, did you receive the Spirit by performing the Law or by heeding the Faith?
    3. Did you become so foolish that while before, the Spirit abided in you, you have now become the slaves of the flesh?
    4. Was all that we preached regarding constraints? And thus our association has fallen within these narrow limits.
    5. He who gave you the Spirit and the covenant of power, did He thus give them to you for your observances of the Law or because of your heeding the Faith?
    6. Just as Abraham believed in God, and it was credited to him as sainthood,
    7. Know, therefore, that those who were faithful, they are the children of Abraham.
    8. For, from times of old, before knowing that through faith was how nations were blessed, Abraham was promised,* as the holy Scripture says, “Through you all nations shall be justified*.”
    9. Since the believers were justified through the faith of Abraham.
    10. For those who [believed] in the observance of the Law, are under the curse of the Law. For it is written [in Scriptures,] “Cursed is he who does not do everything that is written here in the Law.”
    11. So then no human being achieves sainthood before God through the Law, this is obvious, because it is written in Scriptures that the saint lives by Faith.
    12. The Law then did not emerge from Faith, except whoever performed those things that were written therein, came to live in the Faith.
    13. Therefore, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, who took on these curses on our own behalf. For it is written [in Scriptures,] “Accursed is he who is hanged by the Staff.*”
    14. So that through Faith the blessings of Abraham would be granted by Jesus Christ, and we received the declaration of the Spirit through Faith.
    15. Brethren, I speak as a human being, the Covenant of the Son of Man that I testify to, let no human being denigrate it or change anything in it.*
    16. To Abraham and to his seed, He deeded the Kingdom. And He did not say, “And to your seed,” as in the plural, except, “to your seed,” as in the singular, that being the Christ.
    17. This then I say, that the Covenant from Old was fulfilled by God through Christ,* the Law which came to us four hundred and thirty years [before Jesus,] could not degrade and void the Kingdom [promised from the foundations of the universe.]*
    18. If, however, the inheritance was given to us by the Law, that would not constitute a kingdom. The inheritance, then, that God gave Abraham was the Kingdom itself.

    *3:1.1 Lit. Ar. idiomatic expression: (specifically addressing a small group) “Deficient in thought.”
    *3:1.2 Lit. Ar. expression: “Tied the tiers.”
    *3:6 Lit. Ar. id.: “Counted.”
    *3:8.1 Lit. Ar. idiomatic expression: “Given the hope.”
    *3:8.2 Lit. Ar. id.: The word doesn’t exist in English. It means “blessed, made peaceful and congratulated” all at once.
    *3:13 Lit. Ar. idiomatic figure of speech: “The wood,” or “Caesar.”
    *3:15 Note: Only the Ancient Aramaic retains the correct meaning of this passage.
    *3:17.1 Lit. Ar. idiomatic construction retained: The Old Covenant or the Old Testament was fulfilled through Christ.
    *3:17.2 Paul sets the date when the Law was recorded at 430 B.C.

    Christ is the SEED “of” Abraham, and God is the Genesis of ALL. If every person who is born of woman is filled with the Breath of God, if God is indeed in everyone, and if we were all created in Christ, then we are ALL the SEED of Abraham, and it was through Abraham that all the nations shall be justified.

    Another 3:16 scripture would seem to be pertinent at this juncture, 2 Peter 3:16.

    14. Because of that, my beloved, as you hold on to these things, do your utmost that you may find Him peacefully, without cursing or swearing.
    15. And that you may consider the Lord’s outpouring of Spirit as Salvation, whereas also our beloved brother Paul has written you according to the wisdom that was given him.
    16. Just as he wrote about these things to them in all his Epistles, containing concepts that are difficult to teach; those who are ignorant of this knowledge cannot abide and uphold [these teachings,] just as they cannot other Books of Scriptures, to their own detriment (to their oblivion).
    17. You, therefore, my beloved, since you know this beforehand, guard yourselves that should you be misled by those without faith, that you do not fall away from what you uphold.
    18. Be nourished, then, by the grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and our God the Father, for whom belongs the glory now and in every season and of all the days of the universe, amen.

  37. A Bible based question gentlemen, especially Steve. The man Paul gave up to Satan for the oblivionation or destruction of his flesh, was it because he was diddling his step mother, or to teach him not to blaspheme?

    How is/was his adultery/fornication associated with the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit when Steve is so ADAM-ANT that the only thing that it pertains to is the accusation that the functioning of the Holy Spirit is by and of the Prince of the demons?

    If you are going to behave like good little Muslims or Talmudists, and do everything by the book, then I will simply use your book to confute your arguments, if that is OK with you? No fatwas though, please.

    Why do you think the devil took so long over screwing with the scriptures and setting up the Canon? To get you all back under the Law. And it does not matter if you are Protestant either, as I have hardly ever met a Bible Believing Christian (BBC) who was not bound by the Law in some way – and the evidence of this is the lack of “These signs shall follow” – actual manifestations of the Spirit.

    Do not get me wrong, I am not devaluing the Holy Scriptures, I am asking from where did the the scribes get their revelations, and where will you get yours, your daily bread, when they take your Bibles off you? Selah.

  38. If that commenter had no relationship with the Word, then there are an awful lot of Biblical scholars in the same boat.

    Barnes’ notes on the Bible

    He saith not, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one … – He does not use the plural term, as if the promise extended to many persons, but he speaks in the singular number, as if only one was intended; and that one must be the Messiah. Such is Paul’s interpretation; such is evidently the sentiment which he intends to convey, and the argument which he intends to urge. He designs evidently to be understood as affirming that in the use of the singular number σπέρμα sperma (seed), instead of the plural σπέρματα spermata (seeds), there is a fair ground of argument to demonstrate that the promise related to Christ or the Messiah, and to him primarily if not exclusively. Now no one probably ever read this passage without feeling a difficulty, and without asking himself whether this argument is sound, and is worthy a man of candor, and especially of an inspired man. Some of the difficulties in the passage are these:

    (1) The promise referred to in Genesis seems to have related to the posterity of Abraham at large, without any particular reference to an individual. It is to his seed; his descendants; to all his seed or posterity. Such would be the fair and natural interpretation should it be read by hundreds or thousands of persons who had never heard of the interpretation here put upon it by Paul.

    (2) the argument of the apostle seems to proceed on the supposition that the word “seed” σπέρμα sperma, that is, posterity, here cannot refer to more than one person. If it had, says he, it would be in the plural number. But the fact is, that the word is often used to denote posterity at large; to refer to descendants without limitation, just as the word posterity is with us; and it is a fact, moreover, that the word is not used in the plural at all to denote a posterity, the singular form being constantly employed for that purpose.

    Anyone who will open Tromm’s Concordance to the Septuagint, or Schmids’ Concordance on the New Testament will see the most ample confirmation of this remark. Indeed the plural form of the word is never used except in this place in Galatians. The difficulty, therefore, is, that the remark here of Paul appears to be a trick of argument, or a quibble more worthy of a trifling Jewish Rabbi, than of a serious reasoner or an inspired man. I have stated this difficulty freely, just as I suppose it has struck hundreds of minds, because I do not wish to shrink from any real difficulty in examining the Bible, but to see whether it can be fairly met. In meeting it, expositors have resorted to various explanations, most of them, as it seems to me, unsatisfactory, and it is not necessary to detail them. Dr. Burner, Doddridge, and some others suppose that the apostle means to say that the promises made to Abraham were not only appropriated to one class of his descendants, that is, to those by Isaac, but that they centered in one illustrious person, through whom all the rest are made partakers of the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant.

    To repeat :
    “Now no one probably ever read this passage without feeling a difficulty, and without asking himself whether this argument is sound, and is worthy a man of candor, and especially of an inspired man. “

    But Steve apparently has no difficulty with the argument whatsoever. And this he claims is because he understands the Bible so much better than the rest of us.

  39. A lot of Bible scholars must be deceived by the same demon that is deceiving me :

    .J. Schoeps is well-known for declaring that Paul’s appeal to the singular in Galatians 3:16 is ‘both in contradiction to the meaning of the word and to Biblical linguistic usage’, and is ‘naturally contrary to the sense of the [Genesis] text which refers to the physical descendants of Abraham, thus to Israel’.

    This is not a new opinion: earlier Henry St John Thackeray had agreed with previous scholars that Paul’s argument was ‘untenable’. He did not want to discard Paul altogether, though; he wrote,9

    Though the form of argument used cannot be regarded as satisfactory, the truth conveyed by it that the promises to Abraham pointed to something beyond the possession of Canaan need not be disputed.

    Many of the authors that have justified Paul in terms of typology express doubts that sound similar to Thackeray’s observation.

  40. Apparently if you ask a Jew, Wazza, he will say that Paul is referring to the Messiah.

    I think not.

    It’s not unlike how Matthew misuses Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy of the virgin birth.

    The New Testament writers were desperate to show how Jesus fulfilled the scriptures no matter how tenuous the link.

  41. It essentially midrash or eisegesis, an accusation that is often made against liberals.

    I dont have a problem with it – except when fundamentalists then use it as a basis of argument for something else. Eg. Steve thinks Jesus is literally of Abraham’s line, therefore every name in the Geneology must be literally true.

  42. Bones, I actually said if you ask Jew they would claim they were descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel, and that Abraham was father of Isaac, who was father of Jacob/Israel.

    I never claimed that a Jew would agree with Paul.

    Actually, I wrote that the fact that they would disagree with Paul on the Messiah, yet still hold to Abraham, Issac and Jacob as their ancestry, and that Abraham was father of Isaac and Isaac father of Jacob, and that this confirms what I have been saying, that they were not three separate tribes. I challenged you and wazza to take your theory to a synagogue where it would face derision.

    As I said,
    It is also amazing that neither you nor Bones has picked up the point that, despite what Paul writes about Jesus as the Messiah in Galatians and elsewhere, ad his clear connection to the Promises made to Abraham, the Jews do not believe what Paul says and are still waiting for the Messiah, whom they believe will come through the bloodline of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

    I don’t think you read the threads.

  43. Bones,
    The New Testament writers were desperate to show how Jesus fulfilled the scriptures no matter how tenuous the link.

    Spoken like a true atheist.

    Wazza, the point is that the ancestry is Abraham and Judah.

    You can play around with Paul’s teaching all you want, but you cannot break down the fact that Jesus was, in the flesh, through Mary, descended from Abraham, as all Jews claim this ancestry, calling Abraham their father, who s also called the father of faith.

    The singular nature of Paul’s argument is very clear. he is saying that all are saved through the Seed, who is Christ. Whether you take this as singular or plural, because Christ can also have a pluralist connotation, the argument Paul is making is that all come into Christ through Christ, therefore the Seed of Promise if Christ.

    Secondly, in the natural, the seed of Promise is Isaac, as I have also shown, where God says, “in Isaac shall your seed be’. The Seed, then comes through the lineage of Isaac after Abraham, which both makes Isaac Abraham’s son of promise, and shows where the seed-line to Christ will be.

    Since it is declared that Abraham’s seed would be through Isaac, we know that Isaac was his son, not a separate tribe.

    Then the scripture tells us that Isaac’s twin sons would wrestle in the womb, but that the seed-line would be through the younger, that is, Jacob.

    These fact alone demolish your theory.

    Otherwise, you will have to remove Paul from the New Testament altogether. And, of course, now you and Bones will produce reason for this. You have already begun the process. Why not complete it here.

    Do you agree that Paul should be in the canon?

  44. If you go to a synagogue there would be a range of opinions expressed. Probably more opinions than people.

    But even if every Jew in the whole world were united in the one opinion that they were descended directly from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – that still wouldn’t be a valid response to the proposition.

    The supposed opinions of others are not a reasonable rebuttal of an argument.

  45. That is a side-step. The devout Jew would never denounce his ancestry from Abraham Isaac and Jacob. It is essential to their culture to be swish, that is, of Judah.

    What you are essentially saying is that that the Jews have no ancestry which resembles the Biblical Ancestry. You deny them their own roots.

    Mine are not suppositions, but Biblical proofs, from both Old and New Testament writings, which take in two separate and opposing religions which both agree on the ancestry of Israel.

    Yours are suppositions, therefore you have to apply your own standards to them.

  46. The figure of Abraham is very much a legend. All ancient people have a mythology regarding their ancestry.

    The point of the Abraham story and the theme through the Old Testament that Israel was ‘chosen’ was to distinguish Israel (ie Judaism) from the religions and cultures of the Occupying armies (Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman).

    Otherwise there was a very real danger that it would merely assimilate the prevailing cultures and beliefs.

    We can see the effect that the Persian zoroastrianism and Greek thought had on Jewish belief as an example.

  47. Uh-huh, so ” the devout Jew would never denounce his ancestry from Abraham Isaac and Jacob”

    Well lets have a look at the Jewish Encyclopedia of 1906 :

    “The biography of Abraham in Genesis is probably to be regarded as legendary; it has grown up around sacred places, ideas, and institutions. Yet there can be little doubt that the name involves some historical fact, and that this fact has to do with tribal migration: the name, though personal, not tribal, may represent a migration. By reason of the paucity of information the whole question is obscure, and any conclusions must be largely conjectural.”

  48. And of course the followers of the three Abrahamic religions all claim Abraham as their Patriarch.

    Muslims state that he was a Muslim. Jews that he was a Jew. Christians say he was a Jew but his proper descendents are Christians (through Christ).

    Is it too hard to imagine that the figures of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob became related to each other in the same kind of process? Particularly when the stories were largely non-written.

  49. Steve…you might find this interesting.

    Are Today’s Jews the Physical Descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the Israelite Tribes?
    By Dan Vander Lugt
    Israel is the name God gave Jacob on the night he wrestled with the angel (Genesis 32:28). As a group, his sons along with the 12 tribes that descended from them inherited the name. Although Israel always accepted proselytes,1 it was at first largely made up of people physically descended from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. Eventually the term “Israelite” was replaced by the term “Jew” (Yehudi), derived from the kingdom of Judah (Yehuda), the southern Israelite kingdom that retained its independence for approximately 135 years after Assyria conquered the northern kingdom and took its leading citizens into captivity.
    After the fall of the kingdom of Judah, Judaism (the Israelite religion) continued to be open to Gentile converts. The book of Esther mentions one such occasion.
    “In every province and city, wherever the king’s command and decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a holiday. Then many of the people of the land became Jews, because fear of the Jews fell upon them” (8:17 nkjv).
    Soon after the conversions described in Esther, Alexander’s conquests established a common Hellenistic culture around the Mediterranean, exposing pagans to Jewish religion and lifestyle. Judaism became a vibrant missionary faith. Many thousands of Gentiles became God-fearers and converts.2
    During the third and second centuries BC, a group of Greek-speaking Hebrew scholars in Alexandria translated the Bible into Greek (the Septuagint) so that it would be available in the common language of commerce and culture. Philo and other Jewish apologists strove to explain Israel’s faith to the Gentile world. They wrote intertestamental books—including those in the Apocrypha—that described the superiority of their God.3 The proselytizing zeal of the Jews was still strong during Jesus’ ministry.4 Most Gentiles who converted to Judaism did so because Israel’s God offered both a superior way of life and the hope of resurrection. Some, like the Edomites and Itureans, were forcibly converted by Jewish rulers.5 There were about six million Jews throughout the Roman Empire when Jesus was born in Bethlehem, of whom a large proportion were converts or descendants of converts. Regardless of their pedigree, all Jews identified with the symbols and story of Israel and hoped that Messiah would come to initiate the longed-for days of blessing and restoration. But when He appeared, many didn’t accept Him (John 1:11).
    Two thousand years have brought significant religious and demographic changes to non-Christian people who identify with the Hebrew tradition. A majority of the Jews in the Roman Empire probably converted to Christianity during the first five centuries ad6 following the official Jewish expulsion of Christians from synagogue worship.7 It is a common misunderstanding that following the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in the Jewish-Roman wars of ad 70 and 135, the Jews of Palestine were driven from the land as a people and that modern diaspora Jews are their descendents. Actually, there never was a great “dispersion” or “mass exile” of Jews following the Jewish-Roman wars of ad 70 and 135. Most of the Jews were “people of the land” (Am Ha’aretz), peasant farmers generally indifferent to politics but devoted to their homeland. Keeping a low profile, they remained in Palestine, many becoming Christians and Muslims under Byzantine and Arab rule. As mentioned earlier, Jews of the Diaspora, including the ancestors of today’s northern European, Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazim, continued to be largely the descendents of proselytes. Today, dark-eyed, brown-skinned Palestinians are more likely to be Abraham’s physical descendents than the light-skinned northern European Ashkenazim displacing them. This has been acknowledged by Jewish historians, including two of the founders of the modern state of Israel, David Ben-Gurion and Itzhak Ben-Zvi:
    To argue that after the conquest of Jerusalem by Titus and the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt Jews altogether ceased to cultivate the land of Eretz Israel is to demonstrate complete ignorance in the history and the contemporary literature of Israel . . . The Jewish farmer, like any other farmer, was not easily torn from his soil, which had been watered with his sweat and the sweat of his forebears . . . Despite the repression and suffering, the rural population remained unchanged” (Eretz Israel in the Past and in the Present, Jerusalem: Ben-Zvi, 1979; in Hebrew, translated by Sand, p.198).
    The fellahin [Arabic-speaking Palestinian peasants] are not descendants of the Arab conquerors, who captured EretzIsrael and Syria in the seventh century CE. The Arab victors did not destroy the agricultural population they found in the country. They expelled only the alien Byzantine rulers, and did not touch the local population. Nor did the Arabs go in for settlement. Even in their former habitations, the Arabians did not engage in farming . . . They did not seek new lands on which to settle their peasantry, which hardly existed. Their whole interest in the new countries was political, religious and material: to rule, to propagate Islam and to collect taxes (Ibid., p.196).
    If Jewishness were determined by the preponderance of patriarchal genes alone, the people we know today as Jews would be a significantly different group. The myth that the dominant group of modern Jews—the Ashkenazim—are uniquely the descendents of Abraham creates a tribal idolatry. Even among Christians, it encourages new manifestations of the Judaizing spirit that the apostles battled in the first century.
    Although today’s Jews still identify with the Israel of the Old Testament, they are not uniquely the descendants of the patriarchs, and their rejection of Jesus has locked their focus on the tribal aspects of the Old Testament tradition while distancing them from the universal message of the Old Testament prophets. Jesus said, “The last will be first, and the first will be last” (Matthew 20:16). Israel was formally the primary witness for God in the world, but the members of this judicially blinded group remain the most opposed to His universal plan. When Israel repents its corporate rebellion, it will be “life from the dead.” The elect Jews will be freed from their judicial blindness, and their desperate faith in a tribal God will be transformed into passion for the salvation of the entire human race.
    Even though they are not unique “people” in a genetic sense, and have no “rights” they can demand from the Lord (including the “right” to return the ancient Hebrew homeland, displace or drive out its current inhabitants, and establish a Jewish state), both the Old and New Testament testify of God’s love for the Jews and His desire to restore them when they humbly submit to Him and the Messiah He has sent.
    Some examples: Joseph married Asenath, an Egyptian priest’s daughter (Genesis 41:45,50; 46:20). She bore him sons Manasseh and Ephraim. Moses married Zipporah, the daughter of a Midianite (Exodus 2:21). She may have been partially of African descent (Numbers 12:1). She bore Moses two sons: Gershon and Eliezer (Exodus 18:3-4). During the period of the judges, the Israelites intermarried extensively with the surrounding nations (Judges 3:5). Jesse’s wife, the mother of Israel’s great King David, was probably a Moabite. King David himself took the daughter of the king of Geshur as one of his wives. King Solomon was notorious for the number and variety of his wives: Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites (1 Kings 11:1-3). Other kings and commoners married foreigners, including the notorious daughter of a Phoenician king, Jezebel, wife of Ahab. Back To ArticleIt would not be an exaggeration to say that but for the symbiosis between Judaism and Hellenism, which, more than anything, turned the former into a dynamic, propagative religion for more than 300 years, the number of Jews in today’s world would be roughly the same as the number of Samaritans. Hellenism altered and invigorated the high culture of the kingdom of Judea. This historical development enabled the Jewish religion to mount the Greek eagle and traverse the Mediterranean world.The conversions carried out by the Hasmonean kingdom were only a small part of a far more significant phenomenon that began in the early second century BCE. The pagan world was already beginning to rethink its beliefs and values when Judaism launched its campaign of proselytization and became one of the factors that prepared the ground for the great Christian revolution. Judaism did not yet produce professional missionaries, as its younger sibling would do before long, but its encounter with the philosophies of the Stoic and Epicurean schools gave birth to a new literature that demonstrated a strong desire to win souls (Shlomo Sand, The Invention of the Jewish People, p.161). Back To Article See Ibid., pp.162-164. Back To Article“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves” (Matthew 23:15 nkjv, see also Acts 2:10). Back To Article “In 125 BCE Yohanan Hyrcanus conquered Edom, the country that spread south of Beth-zur and Ein Gedi as far a Beersheba, and Judaized its inhabitants by force. Josephus described it in Antiquities of the Jews:Hyrcanus took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would circumcise their genitals, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, and of the rest of the Jewish ways of living, at which time therefore this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews.Thus did the ruling Hasmonean high priest annex an entire people not only to his kingdom but also to his Jewish religion. Henceforth, the Edomite people would be seen as an integral part of the Jewish people” (Sand, TIOTJP, pp.157-158).“In 104-103 BCE Judas Aristobulus [son of Yohanan Hyrcanus] annexed the Galilee to Judeaand forced its Iturean inhabitants, who populated the northern region, to convert to Judaism. According to Josephus, ‘He was called a lover of the Grecians; and had conferred many benefits on his own country, and made war against Ituraea, and added a great part of it to Judea, and compelled the inhabitants, if they would continue in that country, to be circumcised, and to live according to the Jewish laws’” (TIOTJP, Sand, 159). Back To ArticleThe systematic expulsion of Christian Jews from Judaism occurred prior to the Bar Kochba revolt. See below.“In the oldest Palestinian version of the 12th benediction of the Prayer of Eighteen Benedictions, now known to us through the findings in the Cairo Geniza, Nazarines and minim are mentioned together: ‘May the Nazarenes (Christians) and heretics perish in a moment, be blotted out of the book of life, and not be written with the just.’ The introduction of this benediction into the Shemone Esre and therewith into the liturgy by R. Gamaliel II c. ad 90 carried with it a definitive breach between the Chr. Church and Judaism. From then on cursing the Nazarenes became an integral part of synagogue worship and the daily prayer of every Jew. Precisely in this benediction very great care was taken to see that the cursing of the minim was done correctly and without abbreviation. Attending the synagogue and taking part in its worship thus became impossible for Christians. Complete separation resulted. In future confession of Jesus Christ meant excommunication and expulsion from Judaism. The Johannine statements belong to this period” (Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. 7, p. 850). Back To Article Scholars generally agree that in the first century there were approximately six million Jews in the Roman Empire. That was about one tenth of the entire population. About one million were in Palestine, including today’s State of Israel, while those in the Diaspora were very much part of the establishment in cities such as Alexandria and Constantinople. At one point Klinghoffer acknowledges that, during the life of Jesus, only a minuscule minority of Jews either accepted or rejected Jesus, for the simple reason that most Jews had not heard of him. Some scholars have noted that, by the fourth or fifth century, there were only a few hundred thousand, at most a million, people who identified themselves as Jews. What happened to the millions of others? The most likely answer, it is suggested, is that they became Christians. What if the great majority of Jews did not reject Jesus? That throws into question both the title of the book and Klinghoffer’s central thesis. The question can be avoided only by the definitional legerdemain of counting as Jews only those who rejected Jesus and continued to ally themselves with rabbinical Judaism’s account of the history of Israel (Richard John Neuhaus, “Why the Jews Did or Did Not Reject Jesus,” First Things).To begin with, a few definitions: Who is a Jew? A Jew is anyone who has a Jewish mother or who converted to Judaism in conformity with Halacha, Jewish religious law. This definition alone excludes racism. Judaism does not seek converts, but those who do convert are accepted on a basis of equality. Let us see how far this goes. Some of the most eminent and respected rabbis were converts to Judaism. Jewish parents throughout the world bless their children every Sabbath and holiday eve, and they have done it in the same way for millennia. If the children are girls, the blessing is, “May G-d let you be like Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah.” Not one of these matriarchs was born a Jewess; they were all converts to Judaism. If the children are boys, the blessing is, “May G-d let you be like Ephraim and Menashe.” The mother of these two was an Egyptian woman who became Jewish and had married Joseph. Moses himself, the greatest Jew who ever lived, married a Midianite woman who became Jewish.Finally, the Tenach, the holy writings of the Jew, contains the book of Ruth. This woman was not only not Jewish by birth, but she came from the Moabites, traditional enemies of the Jewish people. This book describes Ruth’s conversion to Judaism and is read annually on the holiday commemorating the giving of the Torah, the “Law,” i.e., the Pentateuch. At its very end, the book of Ruth traces the ancestry of King David, the greatest king the Jews ever had, to Ruth, his great-grandmother.Apart from the Zionists, the only ones who consistently considered the Jews a race were the Nazis. And they only served to prove the stupidity and irrationality of racism. There was no way to prove racially whether a Mrs. Muller or a Mr. Meyer were Jews or Aryans (the Nazi term for non-Jewish Germans). The only way to decide whether a person was Jewish was to trace the religious affiliation of the parents or grandparents. So much for this racial nonsense. Racial pride has been the downfall of those Jews in the past who were blinded by their own narrow-minded chauvinism.
    This brings us to a second definition. Is there a Jewish people? If so, what is its mission? Let us make this completely clear: The Jewish nation was not born or reconstituted a generation ago by some Zionist politicians. The Jewish nation was born on Mount Sinai when the Jews by their response, “let us do and let us hear,” adopted the Torah given to them by G-d for all future generations. “This day you become a people,” though valid still today, was spoken thousands of years ago. (Quotation from Neturei Karta, “The Difference Between Judaism and Zionism”). Back To Article

    Categories: Bible, Contemporary Issues, World Religions

  50. If you continue down this track it gets pretty racist.

    Like black people being cursed because they supposedly descended from Ham and this justified slavery.

  51. Thanks Greg. Interesting, but doesn’t change much.

    Muslims state that he was a Muslim. Jews that he was a Jew. Christians say he was a Jew but his proper descendents are Christians (through Christ).

    An easy mistake to make, but Christians who actually read and know the Bible have never said Abraham is a Jew. How could that be?

    Abraham was before Jews. Abraham>Isaac>Jacob>Judah! Abraham was also 430 years before the Law of Moses.

    Abraham, in fact, was a Gentile, hence the understanding that he was the father of faith for Gentiles too, Gentiles being goyim, meaning ‘nations’.

    Therefore, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel were not, strictly speaking, Jews, because they were not of Judah, but were ancestors of Jews.

    I don;t think Jews say that Abraham was a Jew. He could not be for the reasons just given. They claim him as the father of Israel through Isaac.

    On our first claim, Muslims have contrived their doctrine which was not formulated until at least the 7th century.

    They replace Isaac with Ishmael, having, thereby and subsequently, confirmed the prophecies given to Abraham and Hagar that Ishmael’s descendants would tribe, but would ‘be against every man’.

    Genesis 16
    12 “He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man’s hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”

    Genesis 17
    20* “And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
    21 “But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”

    The Covenant of God is established with Isaac, who becomes a key figure on the history of israel the nation.

    Of course, it is a simple matter to Google away and seek out people who will confirm your point of view. You can prove just about anything online these days because the law of averages tells us that there must be at least one other person who agrees with our basic perspective, and it is likely to be many others if it is reasonably logical, an there may even be someone who has written about it and published it on the web.

    That is why I prefer, mostly, to reference the Bible and see what it says. The research is useful and often enlightening, but there were doubters in Jesus’ day and there will be doubters today. The only way to the truth is by being led by the Word and Spirit.

    There has to be a hope which is the anchor of the soul in this world of information and knowledge. Not all knowledge is useful to life.

    If you are going to spend so much time discovering why you should doubt scripture you will find allies across the internet to help your cause and take you off course. Google away. But if it doesn’t match the word, which is actually remarkably reliable, then it should be taken with a pinch of salt.

    Now you have eliminated the doctrine of Paul from the New Testament. There isn’t much left. Greg already has made light of the fact that his Bibles are ornamental but useless to him.

    I have several Bibles, and they are all well worn.

  52. Good for you Steve. I thought you might pick up on that one about Abraham not being a Jew. Your superior Bible-reading skills have won out again. You got me, and I must now hang my head in shame.

    That simple mistake invalidates everything I ever said on this blog.

  53. Dear Wazza,

    In the seven and a half years since the birth of Christians United for Israel this is the first time I am writing to you; I am doing so for several reasons.

    First, I want to personally thank you for supporting Israel through CUFI. Our unity and growing numbers are truly making a difference on behalf of the Jewish people. CUFI has just hosted its eighth Washington DC Summit which was our most successful event to date, thank you again for your support!

    Second, I ask that you keep our CUFI on Campus students in your prayers as they leave for Israel in a few days. We know this life-changing journey will equip these brave young men and women to take a stand for Israel on university campuses throughout America. We could not do this without your generous giving, again, I thank you! You can follow their trip via Twitter with the hashtag #CUFIIsrael.

    And finally I want to let you know about our new CUFI campaign. I am often asked the question, “Why do you support Israel?” I simply answer, “Because I am a Christian!” This is a question many of us are asked so we decided to make “Because I am Christian, I Stand with Israel” our 2013 campaign.

    Our “Because I am Christian, I Stand with Israel” products enable us, in one clear voice, to demonstrate that Bible-believing Christians stand with Israel and the Jewish people. This campaign is also an excellent opportunity for us to make a public statement about our faith as Christians and our commitment to the State of Israel.

    Again, thank you for your prayers, your giving and for your consideration to proudly display a “Because I am Christian, I Stand with Israel” message in your community. Not only will these items enable you to declare your stand for Israel; your purchases will also help support CUFI’s mission to educate Christians about our biblical mandate to stand with Israel.

    I pray that the Lord bless you with all that is good. May His favor surround you as a shield and may you prosper beyond measure as you pray and support Israel and the Jewish people.

    Blessings to you and those that you love,

    Diana Hagee

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