Vatican offers ‘time off purgatory’ to followers of Pope Francis tweets

Papal court handling pardons for sins says contrite Catholics may win ‘indulgences’ by following World Youth Day on Twitter

Pope Francis, at Vatican

A court of the Catholic church, led by Pope Francis, above, warns that the faithful cannot obtain lesser punishment just by ‘chatting online’. Photograph: Franco Origlia/Getty Images

In its latest attempt to keep up with the times the Vatican has married one of its oldest traditions to the world of social media by offering “indulgences” to followers of Pope Francis‘ tweets.

The church’s granted indulgences reduce the time Catholics believe they will have to spend in purgatory after they have confessed and been absolved of their sins.

The remissions got a bad name in the Middle Ages because unscrupulous churchmen sold them for large sums of money. But now indulgences are being applied to the 21st century.

But a senior Vatican official warned web-surfing Catholics that indulgences still required a dose of old-fashioned faith, and that paradise was not just a few mouse clicks away.

“You can’t obtain indulgences like getting a coffee from a vending machine,” Archbishop Claudio Maria Celli, head of the pontifical council for social communication, told the Italian daily Corriere della Sera.

Indulgences these days are granted to those who carry out certain tasks – such as climbing the Sacred Steps, in Rome (reportedly brought from Pontius Pilate’s house after Jesus scaled them before his crucifixion), a feat that earns believers seven years off purgatory.

But attendance at events such as the Catholic World Youth Day, in Rio de Janeiro, a week-long event starting on 22 July, can also win an indulgence.

Mindful of the faithful who cannot afford to fly to Brazil, the Vatican’s sacred apostolic penitentiary, a court which handles the forgiveness of sins, has also extended the privilege to those following the “rites and pious exercises” of the event on television, radio and through social media.

“That includes following Twitter,” said a source at the penitentiary, referring to Pope Francis’ Twitter account, which has gathered seven million followers. “But you must be following the events live. It is not as if you can get an indulgence by chatting on the internet.”

In its decree, the penitentiary said that getting an indulgence would hinge on the beneficiary having previously confessed and being “truly penitent and contrite”.

Praying while following events in Rio online would need to be carried out with “requisite devotion”, it suggested.

Apart from the papal Twitter account, the Vatican has launched an online news portal supported by an app, a Facebook page, and it plans to use the online social networking site Pinterest.

“What really counts is that the tweets the Pope sends from Brazil or the photos of the Catholic World Youth Day that go up on Pinterest produce authentic spiritual fruit in the hearts of everyone,” said Celli.


92 thoughts on “Vatican offers ‘time off purgatory’ to followers of Pope Francis tweets

  1. What? Did someone open the doors to the nuthouse? Purgatory? Indulgences? I think you all need to go talk to a Rabbi or believing Jew about hell and purgatory – if they like you they may just tell you. What a load of rubbish. No wonder people laugh at the Universal Church – well, except the billion or so who believe that their lives depend upon it. I am not holding them up to ridicule, they so it so well themselves that I could not ever hope to top it. I guess this article is a piss take? Please tell me it is…

  2. Sorry, shoiuld have been “do it so well”…The Kirke has always been a protection racket – where do you think the Mafia learned their trade? From criminals in cassocks! Believe or burn, pay your tithes, obey the priest and pope, do what you are told…achtung baby!

  3. Nothing changes. Not long now until the Fifth Marian Dogma is adopted. This pope is a big fan.

    I don’t think l’ll bother to tweet the pope if it means time off in purgatory. I’d rather miss out on his purgatory altogether and go straight to the presence of God, thanks.

  4. It’s always a risk putting up a positive article about Catholicism amongst this crowd.

    So Steve, you don’t think time off for tweeting is appropriate? Or you just want a moan like the others, who more predictably lived up to their begrudging reputation?

    Perhaps you could recommend another method of indulgences

    An globalised church that organises a youth event that expects in the order of 2.5 million to attend and you still find a reason to complain.

    Dear Lord! I can’t believe you people.

  5. Is this article for real?

    People have been trying to convince me for a long time that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach purgatory and or have anything to do with indulgences.

    I assume it’s a joke.

    But I’m not sure what’s funnier. Online indulgences and purgatory, or Wazza in righteous anger over anyone being critical of a story about a large youth event……

    So Hillsong’s problem is just that it’s too small!

    Someone tweet Houston. When Hillsong goes truly global and get’s over 2 million to an event, even Wazza will stop being critical!

    Interesting …..

    But, it’s a joke right? The Catholic Church doesn’t believe encourage it’s followers to attend Catholic events in order to reduce punishment in the afterlife.

    That’s got to be protestant smear campaign, or another satirical piece from anti-religionists right?

    But if it’s true, then I pray the misguided young people get saved and join Hillsong. Then maybe Wazza can help in the PR for the Hillsong 2 Million Man March.

    Forgive me Wazza, but after years of anti-Hillsong posts on this site, it’s comedy gold to have someone from here upset about criticism in spite of a youth event with big numbers.

    So, what does Hillsong need to be beyond criticism. A million people?

    500, 000?

    100,000?

    51, 600?

    hmmm Next I’ll be asking if kissing in a kindergarten play is a sin.

  6. and yes I do realize that you were using Steve’s lines….. lol

    Just when evangelicals are being persuaded to be more accepting of the Catholic Church you see news like this.

    Somethings never change.

  7. Poor wazza’s having a hard time of it lately. The truth increasingly confounds his logic.

    As Q pointed out, after several years of media misrepresentation it was great to see a journalist, and one from the usually hostile Courier Mail, actually get the point that Hillsong is sending a great message about Australia as well as a bout Christianity to the far flung reaches of our planet.

    It was also excellent to be able to add the article to this site, which has been continually scathing of Hillsong, but is gradually losing the capacity to be critical as the rest of Australia catches up and cottons on to the fact that hillsong is a good thing to have around.

    But in came Bones and wazza, with predictably obvious begrudging malice, to attempt to spoil the party, when a simple nod of appreciation would have been far more appropriate.

    But anyone who can defend the perpetuation of both indulgences and purgatory is missing something important don’t you think?

  8. So, wazza…

    Do you agree with purgatory?

    Do you agree with the concept of tweeting as an indulgence to reduce time, presumably for relatives, in purgatory, and for the tweeter!

    No! Please! I can’t believe this is a real report. I’m having the same difficulty as Q with it. It is a joke, isn’t it?

    Please tell me that the head of the Catholic Church hasn’t announced this twaddle.

  9. From the article:
    Indulgences these days are granted to those who carry out certain tasks – such as climbing the Sacred Steps, in Rome (reportedly brought from Pontius Pilate’s house after Jesus scaled them before his crucifixion), a feat that earns believers seven years off purgatory.

    These days? You mean they still do this stuff? Wasn’t this one of the things which got Luther to reconsider faith vs works?

    Do Catholics actually know that there is a Bible?

  10. Wow, Greg. I looked through that article on purgatory, and I see you have sealed it off. On what grounds?

    I am still a major contributor here. You did not seek either my permission or give any indication that you would seal off that thread. Why not?

    it should be my prerogative to continue a thread or seal it off.

    You also removed all of your own comments to which others responded on that thread. Why? Are you ashamed of what you wrote? Or at the strength of argument which was presented to refute your own defence of purgatory?

    This is simply not right. By all means seal off your own posts and threads, or the threads which are no longer being overseen by their authors, but please don’t undertake to remove my threads without at least discussing it with me.

    Now that entire thread becomes relevant again and you have stopped it. That is wrong.

  11. You actually have to pay to get social media messages from Hillsong United.

    Here the Pope is offering tweets for free. Not only that, he’s actually offering a benefit for following his tweets.

    Yet you guys are all whinging about “wah wah, unscriptural…. wah wah, its not in the bible”.. etc. etc.

    How many followers do you reach with your tweets?

  12. I have made all posts older than 1 year automatically close off comments. I deleted all my comments from every thread on this site the same day I deleted all my own posts…back when I had a mental brain snap.

    If you want another discussion start another post and link to that one.

  13. The decent thing to do, then, Greg, is to let posters know what you are doing. Those posts remain current, and moderated, since I am the author. Does anyone really want me to rewrite those posts?

    wazza,
    Here the Pope is offering tweets for free. Not only that, he’s actually offering a benefit for following his tweets.

    A benefit? What the blazes are you talking about? The whole purgatory thing is not only made up, it is a fraud. There is no benefit to rewarding people with nothing.

    Twitter? Tweets? Who gives a monkey’s who tweets who or why?

    The issue is purgatory and indulgences. The fact that they still promote them so long after Luther challenged them. Including walking up the steps of their shrine to works.

    And of course Christians use Scripture to define doctrine.

    But why would I expect you to know or understand this?

  14. Well, anyway, sorry to get mad at you Greg. As you know, we put a lot of work into posts, and, sometimes, into the conversations on the threads, so I was somewhat put out yesterday when I discovered what you’d done. Apologies for being angry. I am glad you’ve paused the older stuff, and appreciate the work you must have put into that.

  15. The Vatican has worked out that the more people follow the pope on twitter the more he can reach through their media department. He probably has little to do with it.

    Do you really think the pope has or uses a mobile phone? No, he has a dedicated department sending out papal propaganda, oops, sorry, information to his followers.

    What better way to build their data base of followers than by offering something free which costs them nothing?

    It’s the revamped scam of the century, and based on something which many thousands have given their lives to fight against as a doctrine in time past, and which has bound literally millions for centuries.

    So they build the popes following on something he probably doesn’t know how to use, so that he can send out papal messages without being near anyone.

    It’s the free offer of the century, and costs the Vatican nothing to give nothing in return for nothing.

  16. What an incredibly cynical and sour take on the whole issue.

    I’m afraid you must have a lot of unbelief and unrepentance in your heart to say such a thing. So you know for a fact that the motivation of the Pope and the Vatican is merely to build a database of followers, do you?

    That would be like claiming that Joel Houston’s partnership with the “Upfront” exclusive online community is just to build a database of followers or even to profit from the fees charged ($5.99 per month). When they have specifically stated that they want to use it to conduct prayer meetings over the internet.

  17. So you think saving people time in purgatory by tweeting the pope isn’t a cynical exercise in raising the papal profile amongst young Catholics?

    Either that or the RC church is as whacky as I thought.

    You must have a lot of faith in purgatory and indulgences.

    Have you tweeted the pope yet?

  18. And is has nothing whatsoever to do with Hillsong. You just want to find some equivalence to defend the papal error.

    Hillsong is not the issue.

    Purgatory and indulgence is.

    Papal error is.

  19. Sorry, retweeting the pope won’t get you out of hell
    By the Rev. James Martin, SJ, special to CNN

    (CNN) –Here were the tantalizingly weird headlines: “Follow pope online, get to heaven sooner – Facebook likes don’t count.” “Cut your time in purgatory by following pope on Twitter.” And, worst of all, from Slate: “Pope now offering indulgences in exchange for Twitter followers.”

    Similar headlines popped up on more than 190 news sources on Wednesday.

    Ha ha. Is the Catholic Church offering time off in hell– or purgatory, depending on the website – just for checking your Twitter feed every few hours? Is the church really that dumb? And here I thought Pope Francis was cool, or as Esquire recently termed him, “awesome.”

    This is (another) case of how the media misunderstands and misreports a story from “The Vatican.”

    Here’s how it seemed to have happened.

    On June 24, the Apostolic Penitentiary (the Vatican office that deals with matters concerning sin,) issued a document that said the faithful who attend the upcoming World Youth Day in Brazil would receive a “plenary indulgence” for their efforts during pilgrimage.

    That’s a traditional Catholic term for the full remission of the “temporal punishment” in the afterlife due to sin. The theological idea is that by doing good works on earth, or by engaging in pious practices like a pilgrimage, you can help “work off” some of the temporal punishments that may await you after death.

    But just from checking Twitter every few hours? Let’s leave aside the very complicated theology of the plenary indulgence for a moment, and see how this story got out of hand.

    The Vatican’s original document offered an indulgence for those who complete a pilgrimage. That’s fairly common. A few years ago, when I made a pilgrimage to the French shrine of Lourdes, one could work towards an indulgence by visiting certain holy sites and praying there.

    Once again, the idea is making reparation in penance for your sins. To take a homey example, if you’re a student who talks too much in class, your teacher might ask you to clean the blackboards instead of failing you. To avoid a big punishment you make amends for your mistakes.

    But there’s more: the Vatican document noted that the faithful at World Youth Day must be “truly repentant and contrite.” In other words, they must undertake the pilgrimage in a true spirit of repentance. Be sorry for their sins. That’s common, too.

    At the end of the document, the Vatican noted that it was not just pilgrims to whom this applied, but another, newer, group: those who might participate “with due devotion, via the new means of social communication.”

    Why did the Vatican include that category? As I see it, to be inclusive, something people often accuse the church of not being.

    For those who cannot travel to Brazil, because of financial limitations or health restrictions, it’s a way of welcoming them.

    To my mind, it’s a generous way of inviting people into the Masses, prayers and liturgies during the World Youth Day. Why wouldn’t you want to include the sick, the poor and the elderly in the community of pilgrims? And why wouldn’t you want to help them participate via the web?

    So how did this get so focused on Twitter?

    Well, it would seem that The Guardian got hold of “a source” in the Vatican who said, “That includes following Twitter.”

    Now, who was the source? We are not told. But that was enough for the headline writers at the Guardian to write: “Vatican offers `time off purgatory’ to followers of Pope Francis tweets.”

    That’s already doubly inaccurate. Because, first of all, even the “source” said it’s not enough to just follow the pope on Twitter (as the headline misleadingly stated).

    “But you must be following the events live,” he told the Guardian, “It is not as if you can get an indulgence by chatting on the Internet.”

    Second, in that same article Archbishop Claudio Maria Celli, head of the Pontifical Council for Social Communication, was quoted as telling the Italian daily Corriere della Sera: “You can’t obtain indulgences like getting a coffee from a vending machine.”

    In other words: the original document, the “source” and Archbishop Celli all said the opposite of what the headlines said.

    That is, it’s not enough simply to follow the pope on Twitter. It’s not even enough to check his Twitter feed frequently. You need to be (a) contrite, (b) trying to follow the events at World Youth Day live and (c) performing these acts with “due devotion.”

    In other words, the Vatican is clearly referring to prayerful participation in these events by men and women who could not otherwise go, through the various “new means of social communication.”

    An example: A friend of mine was recently diagnosed with a serious form of cancer. After I told her that I would pray for her, I mentioned that the shrine of Lourdes had a 24-hour webcam in the famous Grotto, where Catholics believe the Virgin Mary appeared in 1858.

    She e-mailed me a few days later to say that “visiting” the Grotto, via the web, had helped her to pray. It brought her a great sense of peace. This is the kind of “due devotion” that the Vatican has in mind, despite what the headlines might say.

    The worst headline came from the normally careful Slate: Pope Francis is not offering indulgences “in exchange for Twitter followers.” He has plenty of Twitter followers. But he’d probably exchange a few hundred of them for headline writers who actually read the story.

    James Martin is a Jesuit priest, editor at large at America magazine and author of “The Jesuit Guide to (Almost) Everything.” He tweets, but won’t promise to get you out of purgatory, at @JamesMartinSJ .

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/07/17/sorry-you-cant-get-out-of-hell-by-retweeting-the-pope/

  20. I didn’t think anyone would revisit anything a year or more older so I thought I was on safe ground…apparently not! No need to apologise, although I appreciate it, I understand how you feel. I’ll fix it all tomorrow.

  21. “A few years ago, when I made a pilgrimage to the French shrine of Lourdes, one could work towards an indulgence by visiting certain holy sites and praying there.”

    Maybe I’m rekindling my evangelical fire. But to me this is not Christianity.

  22. But to me this is not Christianity.

    Meh. We have the annual pilgrimage to Hillsong and C3 where you can buy your blessings/ miracles.

    Pilgrimages have been going on for nearly two thousand years.

  23. The Equivalence Brothers strike again.

    This has nothing to do with Hillsong or C3. It’s just that they are the default ministries Bones and wazza attack when they want to defend the indefensible and have nothing to defend it with.

    But it has nothing to do with Hillsong, or C3, or any other Pentecostal group.

    It has everything to do with the sustained doctrines of purgatory and indulgence. At least tithing is mentioned in the Bible. Neither of these are. They are made up scams which have netted a fortune for Rome and funded crusades, national blockades and persecution of saints for centuries.

    These days, with the new politically correct Vatican, it is used to build a database of ready made followers who can be bombarded with Marian dogma, papal declarations and liberal doses of indulgences to promote any event they put on which involves a crowd. It is PR gold. It is the epitome of promotional access. This is product marketing of the highest order using the title of one of the most famous people on earth.

    Of course all marketing uses these devises, and they are perfectly legitimate, but the indulgence scam is pitiful in terms of doctrinal accuracy.

    The problem with the Equivalence Brothers is that they cannot admit it so they look for a scapegoat for their bitterness towards Pentcost.

    One can only surmise that they are in agreement with both purgatory and indulgence.

  24. If you think about it an ancient 2000 year old church who can fill stadia with millions better than rock icons and sporting events and with billions of followers you’d think it was something pretty special like a revival or something.

    Ironic that the biggest critics seem to be Christians.

    If HIllsong had these numbers everyone would be saying what a work of God and no doubt they’d see it as a positive thing.

    The Pope isn’t out to start his own kingdom or reinvent the wheel. The Pope just feels faithful to what he is called to do.

    The bottom line is that nobody is forcing people to join the millions at the World Youth Day or watch it or read the Pope’s tweets.

    And, let’s face it. The critics are pretty well outnumbered. Just some internet Christians – who can find fault with most other churches too.

    Some of the most judgemental/critical people I see online commenting on articles are Christians. Makes me wonder why anyone would want to become a Christian, if all we do is fight and criticise each other? John 13:34-35

  25. “The Equivalence Brothers strike again.

    This has nothing to do with Hillsong or C3. It’s just that they are the default ministries Bones and wazza attack when they want to defend the indefensible and have nothing to defend it with.”

    I think he’s on to us Bones. We are running out of ways to surreptitiously promote the anti-Christ. Lets have a chat about it at the next Lodge-meeting of liberal christians.

  26. The Equivalence Brothers just don’t get it, do they?

    It’s not about numbers, or any other denomination but the Roman Catholics, or any other leader but the pope, Bones.

    Again, to help you, it’s about the intense promotion of the doctrines of purgatory and indulgences.

    Of course, the only solution to this bewildering defence of purgatory and indulgences by the Equivalence Brothers is their adherence to them as doctrines.

  27. Bones, I have no problems with people wanting to visit Rome, Jerusalem, Hillsong, etc.

    I’m not against people believing that they will be blessed by God on their trip to any of those places either.

    I have massive problems with the idea that any visit to anywhere will reduce punishment in purgatory. That would be the same if Hillsong said it.

    And there is nothing wrong with large numbers. Never said anything about that. And yeah, I do think it’s fantastic that thousands turn up to sing worship songs. If United started writing songs praising Mary, or if Houston said that you would spend less time in purgatory if you attand the next Hillsong conference, I’d react the same way.

    Nice try.

    And for what it’s worth if I had the time and the money, I’d be happy to visit Rome, Jerusalem etc. I might even pray that I’d draw closer to God while there.

    But I’m dead against this indulgences idea, and still surprised, because I thought Catholics weren’t into that stuff anymore.

    Leopard can’t change it’s spots perhaps.

  28. @Steve. You could probably criticize Hitler or a referee in a soccer match, and somehow they would would talk about Hillsong. Some kind of syndrome I think.

    Bizarre.

  29. I think it’s called a red herring. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand.

    Both Bones and wazza use this tactic when they have nowhere to go with their argument.

    They could hardly admit that either purgatory or indulgences are doctrinally sound, or even morally correct, but they cannot bring themselves to publicly agree to this, lest a pentecostal be seen to have a point.

    So they search for words which have common applications. In this case ‘tweet’ and ‘twitter’ were used, alongside ‘youth’ in a large gathering, so it was a simple case of saying to themselves ‘which group associated with Steve has a connection with twitter and youth conferences? Oh look, Hillsong and C3 both use twitter and have youth conferences’.

    Then it is a simple matter for them to switch the argument from papal error to a false accusation aimed at Hillsong or C3 on the basis of their use of twitter and holding youth conferences.

    Red herring!

    So the hope is that I will defend the position on Hillsong or C3, they will derive some kind of ground on which to attack Hillsong or C3, and the papal error will be lost to the thread as we enter a separate discussion which has literally nothing to do with the original post.

    I called them the Equivalence Bros because they use this tactic on a regular basis, and, in this instance, were actually working it in tandem.

    I guess we could also call them the Red Herring Twins.

  30. But I’m also very interested in this parrot parody which Bones and wazza have adopted.

    Switching subject around to create another form of equivalence, by using the same words produced in an argument, but taking out the reference to catholicism, and replacing it with pentecostalism.

    Well, I say it’s interesting, but it doesn’t demonstrate a great deal of original thought.

    I’m not sure what you would call this in the list of logical fallacies Greg produced. Galah Syndrome?

  31. I’d agree that indulgences and purgatory are not theologically sound; just as prosperity, speaking in tongues and tithing aren’t…and yet you ascribe to them…and god bless you, nothing wrong with that…just your weird funny interesting Pentecostal way.

    Q, Catholics never gave up the acceptance of indulgences…it was the sale of indulgences that Martin Luther (quite rightly) got angry about. Indulgences can’t be bought these days (I think).

  32. Well, you’re totally wrong, Greg, apart from your statement that indulgences and purgatory are no theologically sound.

    1. Prosperity can be shown to have Biblical application from Scripture.
    2. Speaking in tongues can be shown to have Biblical application from Scripture.
    3. I do not personally ascribe to tithing as law, but tithing, under the Old Covenant, had a Biblical application as a Biblical principle and can be shown as such from Scripture.

    None of these are either weird or particularly Pentecostal. They are Biblical.

    They are all Biblically and theologically sound in their context, and can be demonstrated to be so from Scripture.

    On the other hand there is absolutely no Biblical reference, application or Scripture for either purgatory or indulgences.

  33. And I am amazed, after all that went before in my conversation with Q, that you chose to make an equivalence.

    I think you have added to the red herring club.

    I guess you must be one of triplets.

  34. There’s more evidence for Purgatory than speaking in tongues, tithing or conning Christians from their money. None of which are biblically or theologically sound and show you can read anything into the Old Book if you want.

    Biblical Evidence for Purgatory: 25 Bible Passages

    http://socrates58.blogspot.com.au/2008/02/biblical-evidence-for-purgatory.html

    The Catholics believe Purgatory is biblically sound based on 2000 years of study.

    It’s no more nonsensical than belief in a literal heaven or hell.

  35. This is a segment of a sermon called The RETURN given at Woodland Hills Church on 6/22/08 by Greg Boyd. Boyd gives a brief history of purgatory and explains how the concept of purgatory can fit in a Protestant’s beliefs and how it is a disciplining of believers.

    Which makes sense as protestantism is just a form of Catholicism.

  36. So, Bones, you can pay the pope to fight his wars or fund his conferences and get time off in purgatory? And this is Biblical?

    And the work of the cross wasn’t enough to save people from an intermediate limbo-land?

    I think the intermediary place is called the grave.

    And saints are said to be sleeping!

    I was going to say ‘nice try’, but it wasn’t even that.

  37. Of course there is no hell, heaven or purgatory.

    But there are some interesting verses

    Acts10:4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.

    The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.”

    2 Maccabees 12

    38 Judas took his army and came into the city of Adullam. When the seventh day arrived, they purified themselves according to custom and observed the Sabbath. 39 On the next day, it was necessary for Judas and his men to recover the bodies of the fallen and to bury them with their relatives in the ancestral tombs. 40 They found sacred charms, idols from Jamnia that the Law forbids Jews to wear, under the clothing of each of the dead. It became clear to all why these men had fallen. 41 Then they all praised the Lord, the righteous judge who makes hidden things visible. 42 They appealed to God and prayed for the sin that had been committed to be completely wiped out. The honorable Judas called on the people to keep themselves free from sin, since everyone had seen what had happened because of the sin of those who fell. 43 After taking a collection from each man, he sent the sum of two thousand silver drachmen to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. He was acting honorably and appropriately, thinking about the resurrection. 44 If he hadn’t been looking forward to the resurrection of the dead, then it would have been unnecessary and frivolous to pray for them. 45 He was looking, however, to that best reward laid up for those who die in godliness, and so this was a pious and holy thought. Thus he made an offering of reconciliation so that the dead would be forgiven of their sin.

  38. Or as the RSV says

    But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”

  39. So, Bones, you can pay the pope to fight his wars or fund his conferences and get time off in purgatory? And this is Biblical?

    Still living in the Middle Ages and fighting the Reformation aren’t we?

    The ‘sale’ of indulgences was forbidden by Pope Pius V and the Council of Trent in 1567.

    I was going to say ‘nice try’, but it wasn’t even that.

  40. References to heaven and hell are red herrings. Distractions from the actual subject.

    But at least heaven is well referenced in scripture. Hell is also, although the English word is an interpretation of Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus, as mentioned on many threads. No need to go there. Detour.

    But purgatory is never mentioned or even hinted at anywhere in Scripture.

    Your spurious attempts at linking unconnected verses to purgatory demonstrate your desperation to find something, anything, to back up a doctrinal error which has no basis in fact.

    Then you have no evidence to link purgatory to indulgences. Even if you could prove some link to a state of limbo called purgatory, you would then have to then demonstrate that there is Scripture to back up the false doctrine of paying indulgences to shorten the time for dead people trapped in a detention centre in the netherworld.

    It ain’t happening for you, fella.

  41. As for going back in time, you were the first to do so with your attempt at linking me with Protestant versus Catholic theology.

    I would not consider myself a Protestant, although I recognise the struggle they put up in times past to expose the serious flaws and ungodly error of Roman Catholicism, even to the point of surrendering their lives, being imprisoned, and losing everything to defy the papal machinery of deception.

    I’m happy to go there if you want. But you probably wouldn’t like it.

    It just seems very curious to me that the papacy would revert to indulgences and purgatory when they have such a dismal history with all of these things. It shows that nothing, in essence, has changed.

  42. There is no heaven, hell, limbo, purgatory.

    It’s funny watching you get all worked up about ungodly Catholics when your own beliefs are just as nonsensical.

    I think it’s jealousy that the Catholics thought of making money out of religion before the Penteco$tal machine of deception did.

    Catholics have changed just as Penteco$tal$ have changed.

    But then I think your arguments are just red herrings of a bigger problem you have. That is the need to be right all the time cos if you’re wrong you could spend eternity in a fictional hell.

    Must be hard following a God who demands correctness and condemns those who are wrong.

    Not even a parent does that.

    That’s the only red herring I see here. Or is that a log in your eye.

  43. Is there much difference between promising God will financially reward you if you give money to the church, and promising God will reduce your punishment if you give money (or do some action) for the church?

    Both are on very shaky ground scripturally. And they both suffer from the same kind of moral hazard. Ie. My organisation takes the money but doesnt have to fulfil the promised reward for the payment – that is supposedly done by God.

    Oh sorry, thats equivalence again. I forgot that equivalence was banned – because I couldnt find it in the ‘logical fallacies’ page.

  44. I don’t think anyone ‘banned’ the equivalence argument, wazza. It was merely pointed out that it was a form of red herring.

    If either you or Bones had anything scriptural to use as evidence that purgatory and indulgence was acceptable doctrine, I’m certain you would use it. Your need to resort to ad hominem insults and red herrings demonstrates the deep poverty of your argument.

    But now that you’ve stepped out with your equivalence red herrings you are unlikely to back down from your precarious position since to do so would . The thing is that it is a non-argument because it has nothing whatsoever to do with the article, or the criticism of purgatory and indulgences as doctrine.

    And, Bones, I’m not at all worked up, unless you call bewilderment at your show of ignorance being ‘worked up’.

    I am astonished at your need to defend such a disgraceful error as purgatory and its associated indulgences. I don’t really see the point of what you’re doing, really, except to argue.

    You have never at any stage in all of your antichrist arguments demonstrated that Christ was lying about heaven, Gehenna, the grave or that Paul was lying about tartarus, the grave, or the other Apostles, in their writing, were lying about the afterlife.

    In fact, you avoided my last comments on the thread where you argued this, and actually, in essence, called Jesus a liar for pointing out prophecies concerning him to his disciples.

    Not doing very well here old son.

  45. As I was saying, to do so (back down) would admit a pentecostal knew what he was talking about. That would never do, now, would it?

  46. Anyway, having gone through some of wazza’s arguments, and attempting to make head or tail of whatever Bones is on about here, I can see that neither actually believes very much to do with Christianity, not in a Biblical or Scriptural sense anyway.

    Over the course of a few months we have discussed, argued and debated various Christian topics, and in all of them, and I mean absolutely all of them, Bones, wazza, and, to a lesser extent, Greg have all dismissed Scripture at various times as any kind of evidence or reference point for our faith.

    This thread is a classic example of this. The last few threads, in fact, no matter what the subject, have produced the same results.

    Essentially I am trying to discuss or debate issues from a Biblical or Scriptural perspective, and Bones, wazza and Greg are arguing against everything Scriptural I put on the page.

    Greg puts it down to a matter of interpretation or understanding even though I have deliberately, at times, put the Scripture only as a stand-alone defence of a particular point.

    Here, both Greg and Bones have made the claim that there is no Scriptural evidence for speaking in tongues.

    This is so ridiculous I am not even going to bother arguing the point, since there is so much New Testament Scripture on it that it speaks for itself.

    Here, both Greg and Bones have made the claim that there is no Scriptural evidence for tithing, even as an Old Testament principle made law by God. The general argument made by critics of tithing is that it is an Old Testament principle which has been superseded by the New, something I am on record as agreeing with. But to deny it as Scripture is ridiculous.

    Here, both Greg and Bones have made the claim that there is no Scriptural evidence for prosperity, or that God has ever said He will prosper His people. Yet there is so much evidence of this that it is indisputable. Anyone who has ever bothered to actually read the Bible in any depth will know this is true.

    Here, wazza has made the claim that God does not reward those who financially bless the church, which is a claim I have never made, so I do not know what it has to do with this discussion which is about purgatory and indulgences.

    However there is plenty of Scripture which discusses God’s desire to reward those who give out of the right motives.

    He will repay those who give to the widow, the orphan, the poor and the destitute. He will give to those who give to others. He will command the blessing on those who walk in unity. He is pleased to prosper His servant.Those who honour the Lord with the first fruits of their increase will be blessed. And so it goes on.

    Their denial of Scripture demonstrates not only ignorance, but a wilful rejection of God’s goodness to His people.

    Yes, wilful.

    Then they have the gall to say that it is wrong to speak of God’s judgment and wrath for those who reject Christ and die in their sins, because, they say, God will never judge people or display wrath, even though Scripture tells us He will, as a warning, and God will always be the One to repent of His promised wrath, even when sinners refuse to repent.

    So we see the abject double standard of their words at work in their malevolent equivalence.

    It is OK for the RC church to peddle indulgences for a purgatory that doesn’t exist, but not OK to preach God’s goodness towards those who receive Christ as Lord and Saviour, as He promises them a life more abundant, blessing, and joy.

    It is OK to say God will only ever bless the sinner with eternal life despite their rejection of His grace and mercy, but not OK to say that those who give will be blessed by God in their giving, or rewarded in their faith towards Him.

    Indeed Isaiah the Prophet got it right about these people when he said:

    “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight! Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink, Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away justice from the righteous man!

    Yes, and the woe will loom large on liars and frauds.

  47. Ok, so before you unleashed the wrath of Isaiah on me, called me malevolent, wilfully rejecting God’s word and implied I am a liar and a fraud, you said I had descended to using ad-hominem attacks

    Can you show me where?

  48. “Q, Catholics never gave up the acceptance of indulgences”

    Thanks Greg. I didn’t know that.

    But if a religious work – whether attending a conference or doing something for the poor, or praying for so long, or something else can count, than it isn’t a really big leap to say that giving an offering for a good cause can count.

    I don’t hear the word “indulgence” much these days except when referenced to chocolate.

  49. To be fair to you, wazza, you don’t usually sink to ad hominem attacks, so I’ll withdraw that comment. You only considered my opinion sour and cynical on this thread and filled with unbelief, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on that. Your doubt, that is, since you consider doubt to be an element of faith!

    But you do call good evil and evil good, and that is a woe, old boy!

  50. “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil”

    Yeah it’s a shame that.

    Naturally there’s nothing evil about working yourself up into an ecstatic state or ‘I feel the Spirit moving’. But it is a bit silly. Although it’s evil to think you are better than others because you can work yourself into such a state and others don’t..

    However those who think it is good to manipulate their Christian brothers and sisters from their money on false promises of blessings or sham healings. I would call it evil but some call it good.

    Those who support war and invasion based on lies and call it good. I would call it evil.

    Yes, and the woe will loom large on liars and frauds.

    Man I feel like a drink.

  51. Bones,
    Naturally there’s nothing evil about working yourself up into an ecstatic state or ‘I feel the Spirit moving’. But it is a bit silly. Although it’s evil to think you are better than others because you can work yourself into such a state and others don’t..

    Can you please explain this passage because I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about, and I suggest you don’t either, judging from it.

    It tells me you attend a Pentecostal church and don’t speak in tongues, and despise those that do, though. No big deal, but it explains a lot. And is an example of the reverse snobbery of the cessationists.

    The rest is a continuation of your red herring fish slap and both worth boring about, except to point out the deception in your ‘rapture’ claim, which you know to be a lie.

    It just gets worse for you, Bones.

  52. My advice to you, Bones, is to leave the Pentecostal church you’re in because you just ain’t happy there, mate, and it’s doing you emotional harm.

    This level of contempt and hatred is going beyond mere discomfort. It’s practically Jake-like in its aggression, and he’s a total lost cause.

    Go somewhere you can contribute to and be happy with and forget the Pentecostals. They won’t go away, but there’s no point in being this fraught about them. I know you won’t like this, but God loves Pentecostals, too. He doesn’t even mind them speaking in tongues, tithing and prospering.

    I say this because, as Q pointed out, it doesn’t matter what I, a Pentecostal, say on any subject any time, you attack Pentecostals anyway.

    It’s starting to become obsessively ridiculous.

    This thread is about RC doctrines of purgatory and indulgences, not Pentecostals.

  53. I mean, I can’t believe, having denied purgatory, that you went looking for ‘evidence’ anyway just to spite someone who pointed it out as error!

    That’s called malice, and, no, it doesn’t come up in the logical fallacies list, but it’s a poor way to argue, nevertheless.

  54. Look the red herring of the red herring argument.

    It’s funny watching a Penteco$tal or $teve telling other Christians ergo Catholics their beliefs are weird.

    Pot. Kettle. Black.

  55. I mean, I can’t believe, having denied purgatory, that you went looking for ‘evidence’ anyway just to spite someone who pointed it out as error!

    Nah. I was showing how you can prove anything from the Bible. Plus helping the poor old ‘ungodly’ Catholics out. The Bible does mention a time of purification after death.

    As Greg says I love Penteco$tals and Catholics with their weird beliefs. It doesn’t worry me that Catholics pray to statues or pastors want to rip off their congregations with appeals of abject materialism. It all reveals an imperfect understanding of God. The whole my brand is better than yours is all a bit silly really.

    Oh and I know you won’t like this but Penteco$taliam is definitely about setting an atmosphere so the ‘Spirit can move’ ergo people can work themselves up into an ecstatic state.

    There’s nothing wrong with that though. Like these guys

  56. @Wazza – I think there’s quite a lot.

    @ Steve – dittoes. Bones doesn’t believe in heaven, hell or purgatory, posts a link giving 25 verses proving pergatory – none of which he believes in anyway, because he doesn’t like you saying purgatory exists.

    Must be hard being Bones.

    By the way, I read on groupsects that Hillsong is doing really well in New York – thousands attending, including ex- drug addicts.

    Sorry to be off topic – but since this switched from the Pope and indulgences to attacking pentecostals, the rapture and tongues, I thought I’d mention it.

    It’s just an amazing thing to watch. The more the haters attack Hillsong the more it grows. And the more nasty Christians attack it, the less they become – and the more negative and isolated they become, ending up not having a clue what they believe, even to the point of defending other churches doctrines that they don’t believe in just so they can maintain their argumentative position.

    Back to indulgences and praying for the dead in purgatory – if it’s true, then there should probably be a lot more praying for the dead. There’s a lot of them there right? But in the end, how will anyone ever know how much to pray for them? Maybe some dead people get prayed for 3 times more than necessary while others don’t get prayed for.

    It’s a crazy doctrine that doesn’t make any sense.

    So, when are Bones, Wazza and Greg going to become Catholics or Orthodox or whatever? You all seem so quick to run to defend Rome. I’m sure she would welcome you back. You might have to adjust your beliefs about heaven and gay marriage though.

  57. “I was showing how you can prove anything from the Bible.”

    You didn’t succeed. You showed that people can TRY to prove anything.
    Just look at those who try to prove that David was gay.

    But no, you can’t prove anything from the Bible.

    And if you love pentecostals, maybe you could show it a little more.

  58. By the way, I read on groupsects that Hillsong is doing really well in New York – thousands attending, including ex- drug addicts.

    Pretty sure the Catholics have Hillsong covered.

    At least the Catholics are all over the world and have charity arms and social programs which aren’t just aimed at serving themselves.

    I don’t expect a St Francis or St Thomas Aquinas will ever come from Hillsong.

    You didn’t succeed. You showed that people can TRY to prove anything.

    Yeah says you.

    Wow what an argument. You just whacked Augustine, Origen, Jerome with that argument.

    You guys know nothing.

    Q knows best.

    And if you love pentecostals, maybe you could show it a little more.

    Just keeping the Catholic hate in perspective.

    It’s not comfortable is it?

  59. Bones,
    No one hates pentecostals

    That’s clearly not true, Bones. You have persistently attacked Pentecostals, not just over doctrine, but over you perceived hypocrisy, fraud and a number of other issues you level at them.

    Any mention of any subject any time brings out your attack on pentecostals, especially Hillsong and C3. You are veracious with it. Which why I am pressing you on this point. You do not have an ounce of love for them, only derision.

    You savaged speaking in tongues, erroneously talking about some sort of forced ecstatic state (which tells me you know zip about it). You originally stated it was no Scriptural, but you know it is.

    You savaged prosperity, even though it is Biblical, and carefully renamed it something else knowing you are on tricky ground using that word.

    You savaged the Scripture on heaven, judgment, wrath, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus.

    You savaged the catching up of the saints at the resurrection.

    You savage Israel.

    Anything which has any connection to pentecostal theology, you savage.

    But here’s the rub: you never ever do it with Scripture, only with speculative liberal theology. This is because you eliminate the majority of the texts of the Bible.

    You accused Q of offending the theology of Augustus, Origen and others, but in all of these exclusions of texts, demolition of Scripture and attacks on theology you do far more damage to their theology than Q ever has.

    You continually complain about Hillsong and their leadership, regardless of the subject on offer. You are obsessed with it. You come across as hating anything to do with Pentecost. You even mock the Holy Spirit.

    And before you make another equivalence with Catholicism, I commented on this thread because Greg put up information about RC theology of purgatory and indulgences. My comments were relevant to the post. I did not shift the goal posts to satisfy any lust for attacking a certain group as you do.

    You immediately went for the Pentecostal jugular, as you always do.

    No. If you loved Pentecostals, and felt there was something wrong, you would give actual, Biblical evidence for the claims you make against their theology, not liberal demolition of Scripture.

  60. But I’m very curious about this unfathomable claim that we Pentecostals work ourselves up in to an ‘ecstatic state’ to speak in tongues.

    You’ll have to explain that to me, because I speak in tongues most of the day long (pray without ceasing), and I can’t say I have to ‘work myself up’ into any kind of ‘ecstatic state’! Never had to. Ever. Jesus baptised me with the Holy Spirit, and I just started speaking in unknown tongues. It was and is as natural as speaking to my wife.

    And I pray in tongues regardless of the prevailing ‘atmosphere’.

    There is nothing in Scripture about ‘creating an atmosphere’, although I understand it in a worship context in a meeting. The Hebrew gives us several words for praise and worship, such as halal, the intimate praise, and tehilla, which is the high praise, where we are lost in worship of our God. I don’t think there is much of a problem with being lost in praise or worship of our God and abandoned to Him in adoration, is there?

    I guess you could say that we are occasionally ‘ecstatic’ in our praise on this way, but I don’t see that there is a single thing wrong or ungodly with this.

    But it has nothing to do with speaking, praying or even singing in tongues, which are all Biblical, although singing in he Spirit can be a most refreshing and enjoyable thing in personal praise and worship.

    Nor does the word ‘ecstatic’ come up anywhere in Scripture.

    I hear it and read it a lot from the anti-tongues cessationist mob, made up of people who have never spoken in tongues, think it has ended, and reject it theologically.

    And they reverse the reality of speaking in tongues by claiming i should be a known tongue, when, in fact, the tongue may be known to others, but not to the one speaking.

    He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

    Yep! I’m OK with this. Speaking to God in the Spirit is fine with me, even in tongues.

    But who told you you had to work yourself up into an ecstatic state? Weird.

  61. Bones, I don’t feel the need to agree with everything Augustine and Origen said.

    You certainly don’t either! lol

  62. By the way, Bones, the give away is your use of the word ‘ecstatic’ which is never used by Pentecostals to describe speaking in tongues, only by critics, theologians, or cessationists.

  63. Bones, I don’t feel the need to agree with everything Augustine and Origen said.

    You certainly don’t either! lol

    The Church Fathers didn’t get everything right. How were they to know that heaven isn’t a physical place above the sky. They didn’t have the benefit of our modern understandings. Just as their understanding of anatomy and medicine was limited to their time.

    They were not however ‘ungodly’, ‘fraudulant, ‘scammers’, ‘propagandists’ as hysterically and hypocritically claimed on this thread.

    Look if someone wants to work themselves up and speak in tongues that’s ok.

    They can even say it’s from God.

    It’s probably good stress relief. And probably makes them feel better.

  64. There are fake tongues and then there is the real thing. If you have experienced the real thing, then the fake becomes all too obvious.

    What shrinks and the world call a religious type experience can be manufactured by stimulating the prefrontal cortex, a la Hillsongs etc. It is a head thing, where people play at pleasing God and work themselves into a lather of ecstasy, hence why Churches from Catholic to Pentecostal and beyond can and do become hotbeds of carnality,which ends in bed somewhere. That;s why i call it Sinday – you are either in bed getting screwed or in church getting screwed up.

    To the religious person, their head is caught between two opposing forces of Good and Evil, a la Disneyland, the devil on the one shoulder and the angel on the other. Faith and the things of God however are a heart thing, beyond any natural human comprehension really, adn only Spiritually discernible by the Holy Spirit within.

    Out of your BELLY shall flow RIVERS of LIVING WATER, and part of this involves tongues. Real tongues come from out of your inner man, out of the Spirit, out of your belly, and it is the expression of Christ in you, it is not some actors glossolalia voice exercise, it is the real thing, it is Christ speaking through you by the Holy Spirit.

    I have declared the glory of God and had it come out in birdsong like a lark, and so indescribably beautiful I am still awestruck by it. I have been given to preach sermons in tongues in prayer and then interpreted them and preached them back to myself, Yes Steve, it is very real, but like true praise and worship, it comes out of he Heart and those who worship God should ONLY do so in Spirit and in Truth. The rest is justa childish embarrassment and subject to ridicule by hard hearted reporters, both in and out of Church.

    I have seen Pentes particularly work themselves into a state of psychosomatic ecstasy, and I have seen and tasted the real thing. To dismiss the existence of the real thing simply by virtue of the counterfeit is to hand the enemy an easy victory and to forsake one of the greatest gifts God gives to His Body by Holy Spirit.

    Sadly, the fake serves no one but Satan. Bones, the biggest problem you have is between your ears, your brain and mind. You are supposed to exchange it for the Mind of Christ, as we all are – trade in your pearls – or Jesus will wash them with New Wine and dissolve them – fall on the Rock or the Rock will fall on you. God wants soft hearts to work with.

    For what it is worth, I have been having an amazing time in the Spirit of late. Truly amazing. Remember I prophesied major quakes for NZ, with OZ coming over to pick us up like a fallen ANZAC? Write September 19 in your diaries. This will be the breaking of the 6th Seal.

    But there will be some more this week too, a big one for Wellington down to CHCH centered in the Awatere Fault in Marlborough, where some of the finest wines in the world are produced. It will all eventually be destroyed. But the Big One will be in September, when NZ will die – literally. God is going to destroy the alcohol culture in Australasia – no great loss – and Vegemite is just the Yeast crap by-product from breweries – and folk smear it on leavened bread and drink yeast fermented grape juice or beer – the joke is on us folks.

    Funny how the first thing revived believers do is stop drinking and indulging other deleterious and damaging desires.

    Do some study on what is the most potent neuro toxin for humans (alcohol) and the most dangerous organism for humans (yeast).

    Unfortunately i do not know when the Great Melbourne Quake will happen, only that it will, and it will be bad. When Wellington and the Alpine Fault goes, Australia will get wet, and then there is the Tsunami bombs they “had” to jettison off the Queensland Coast. Never trust the Americans, they are Germans in disguise. One day soon you will see. The Pale horse will soon be loosed, the ‘khloros hippos’.

    What a time to be living in – we are so blessed! Trouble is but, there will be a lot of disappointed folk who think that they are going to get airlifted out of here to heaven in the rapture, it will really damage their faith for a while – it is such a set up by the Jesuits.

    And you can argue all you like Bones and Greg and Co, but when every Island is shaken and every mountain moved out of its place you will probably find a generous smear of Vegemite in your trousers. Not funny but, not if you are not prepared for it.

    When a dying Empire starts to consume its own friends, you know it is big trouble – it is the next Empire however which concerns me – and it is not China – it is the One World Govt. But God has a few surprises for those NWO Johnnies. LOL.

    The kingdom, however, cannot be shaken.

  65. Bones,
    Look if someone wants to work themselves up and speak in tongues that’s ok. They can even say it’s from God. It’s probably good stress relief. And probably makes them feel better.

    You’re a bitter little guttersnipe. And that’s being kind.

    If you think we have to ‘work ourselves up’ even after I’ve written about it, then you are merely being spiteful for effect and have no interest in reality. It appals me that you sit in your Pentecostal assembly with this in your heart.

    But Greg has put your words up for you on the other thread to end all discussion on tongues and Pentecost..

    So, folks, hate on Pentecostals. What’s new?

    Hate on speaking in tongues.

    Learn nothing.

    Divide.

  66. Not my post Steve…but never the less, it seems you are more than willing to allow the catholic church to feel the full brunt of your theological correctness, but won’t allow your own branch of the body to be opened to the light of reason and scripture

  67. Ian, if you had said something about an EQ in Wellington last week, I’d have been listening more intently to you today, however anyone can predict more earthquakes for wellington, based solely upon CHCH’s after tremors.

  68. @Greg. Well at least he’s saying something very concrete with September 19th.

    So, Ian, what if nothing happens on Sept 19th?

    You shouldn’t be surprised if everyone here bags you over it.

    And if nothing happens, and you say that you prayed to stop it, well then anyone can say anything.

    I may as well say that Australia will be completely covered by a tsunami tomorrow at 6PM – but then say I stopped it through prayer.

    So, yes, I will be remembering September 19th. So can you give more specifics about what will happen on September 19th? North or South Island?

  69. @Bones and Ian

    I must say I haven’t seen so much of people getting worked up to speak in tongues.

    I’m not against emotion though. It’s been a while since I can honestly say I was “filled with joy” or rejoiced “exceedingly”.

    Probably gnashed my teeth a lot though – esp reading this site. lol

  70. I’m all for speaking in tongues if it makes you feel better. Do it myself on occasions when i feel the spirit move. Personally I prefer a nice cold beer or three.

  71. I have never in all the years I was associated with Pentecostal churches encountered anything that was remotely like a real gift of tongues. Not from myself not from anyone else…but what I did hear was a lot of what was quite obviously gibberish.

  72. Greg, last year I was warning my sister in Wellington to get out while she could still sell her house. She got snotty with me and my younger brother said, “For all you know it could happen in 2013”. The Holy Spirit spoke and said that as a sign to him and my family the EQ’s would start around July 20, my brother’s birthday. I told a friend in the region that the quakes would start around July 20, 2013 and promptly forgot about it.

    On July 20 my friend rang and laughing said, Hey you, you bugger, do you remember what you told me last year? and he reminded me. Apparently just after I had told him he had been in Hardly Normals buying an appliance and told the salesman there and promptly forgot about it.

    My friend Ken is an amazing and well-known artist who has had an amazing life and loves Jesus and his fellow man. He does work for world famous people and has testimonies of God’s workings that are truly amazing.

    When the quakes started, the guy from Harvey Norman rang him and said “You’re the guy who said this would happen, how did you know?” He told him his mate in CHCH had told him.

    His name is Kenneth Hunt – his email address is laz@paradise.net.nz – contact him and ask him. As for your problem with unbelief, only Jesus can fix that. I like that you have left that one up as you joyfully anticipate it not being fulfilled so you can have a crack at me, but that is alright, but that is alright.

    I warned many people a wee while back to stay away from Wellington. I told folk there that God would send them a warning quake to get out. This next one will be the final warning – the really big one will be in September – I think this year but it could even be 2015, I did not bother telling you as it would have been of no consequence, however Melbourne will, and the East Coast Tsunamis.

    Just how many Aussies do you thin the elites want left alive in their redevelopment plans for OZ? They can get their labor from the Philippines – hard working and Pope fearing that they are. They don’t need lazy yahoos like yous! Poor white trash don’t figure in the plan at all, especially in North Queensland.

  73. Better get a home brew kit Bones – God is going to destroy the booze culture in Australasia..He told me and He is no liar. I used to like a cold one, until he told me it was time to drop it. Q, I have had so much Joy this week. I think Greg must have a particularly joyless existence as he seems to need to crush and sift folk.

    22. The fruit of the Spirit, however, are love, joy, peace, compassion, fulfillment, grace, faith,
    23. Gentleness, hope — the Law does not consecrate these.
    24. These belong to Christ, they crucified the flesh together with all its wounds and lusts.
    25. To live thus is by the Spirit and in submission to the Spirit.
    26. And [those that live so] are not lacking in bliss that they should torment one another and cut down each other.

  74. What was that Bones, “Grab a slab or two’?

    You have to keep a sense of humor – that is what I so love about the Irish and that flint dry humor has rubbed of on Aussies too. My wife (Irish/Jewish) has a sense of humor so dry you could strike a match on it. She is quite prophetic too at times. When she was in Melbourne two years ago, I prayed God would send her a dream so she would know of what is to come for herself. She rang me the next day to tell of a particularly disturbing dream of three quakes in a day,and insisted it was not for CHCH but for Melbourne, and the second one would be huge – like M8.8.

    Now my old Freemason Great, Great Grandfather who built most of the stone Churches in CHCH including the Cathedral and he Basilica went on to Melbourne where he worked on many more stone buildings. He was an adept in the mysteries in stone and it was a prompt from God to learn about my own inner Mason which got me interested in the subject. Jesus did not say to build towers, but to count the cost. Once you identify your own inner Mason, you may then stop trying to build your own strong tower to the heavens.

    As for that Kenyan Prophet of DOOM, given his track record and that arguably all the disasters he predicted were made in the good ‘ol US of A, I am more than a little dubious about him, however God as told me ahead of time what those NWO Johnnies have in mind. God told me that it was his army, the Assyrians who are behind it all, and the current commander in chief of the Army of the Assyrians is Obama the K-K-K-Kenyan and his Prince, Charles and Queen, Elizabeth. He does not bow to her out of courtesy, but duty…as in kiss but duty. And do not forget what happened to the Assyrians once they had kicked Israel’s ass? He razed them like the stubble of the field.

    Did you know The Crown still “owns” America, and German Jewish Royalty and Bankers own the Crown, ergo the Commonwealth, America and Germany, as well as France to, amongst others? Soon they will own the whole lot through the IMF and UN and BIS and then we will all be as slaves and they wont have to keep up the pretense of the gilded cage any more. While you guys have been busy watching the View an Disney you have been screwed by stealth, but soon the velvet gloves will come off the iron fist.

  75. But sir, so many children abused in the Church!

    Pope Francis “Who am I to Judge?”

    Did not the Lord give you authority! and what about the many countless victims? no justice for them!

    Pope Francis ” Gay clergy should be forgiven and their sins forgotten”

    There is no way I’m going to bring my children to get blessed or go to communion or confession to a gay clergy or queer priest in house of the Lord. It’s a disgrace!!! no regard for the countless numbers of children and families who have been molested and screwed up by screw head queers in the church.

    The millions upon millions of dollars which has been spent to protect and keep these stink en jackass’s comfortable, when all this money should have gone to the poor!!

    It is illegal for gay clergy to perform any ceremonial services to the faithful, let alone dress up in holy e tire.

    This pope is bum blasting jackass!

    So shall the Lord come with swift justice to all those who agree with this brown stained pope.

  76. Greg,
    I have never in all the years I was associated with Pentecostal churches encountered anything that was remotely like a real gift of tongues. Not from myself not from anyone else…but what I did hear was a lot of what was quite obviously gibberish.

    Gibberish to you, perhaps! What you probably heard was a language you didn’t understand, which demonstrates only that you don’t know everything!

    Of course, if Greg speaks all languages, including those of angels, we’ll accept that he might have a clue, except…

    …he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

    Oh! No-one understands him! So even if Greg knows all languages it is very likely that he wouldn’t understand the speaker anyway!

    It would be, perhaps, gibberish to his untrained, unlearned ear.

    Well there you go!

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