Welcome

Welcome to an online community where we discuss issues that you can’t always discuss so easily at church. For example, why you are changing churches, how you view church or controversial doctrines and practices. Historically there has been a megachurch or Pentecostal theme, but topics are often broader than that. Everyone is welcome.

Our administrator is Greg the Explorer he tries to keep this place interesting and flying along.

This is Important

Not everything you read on this site you will agree with, not everything that is posted is necessarily the belief of the person posting it either – a lot of what get’s said and posted here is experimental and an attempt to ‘do’ theology.  Theology is not written in stone – Theology is literally a conversation about, around, to and with God.

Our History

The original Signposts was a blog that explored emerging church and missional theology and became a community for those who had been hurt by their church experiences to find acceptance, healing and company.  The admins were Phil and Dan McCredden from Northside Church of Christ in Melbourne.  Phil was part of Forge Australia and so the blog was very much a child of that whole explorative era.  Phil and Dan eventually felt they couldn’t devote the time required to administer the blog, and so turned off comments, stopped posting and eventually the blog was deleted.

The next episode for those of us who wanted to continue the conversation was Signposts2 which was also finally deleted by its administrator. A big thank you to Lance for running it. Lance’s blog is Group Sects www.groupsect.wordpress.com.

For SignPosts02 (SP02) to work, people need to contribute comments. So comment away. Should you wish to contribute an article for discussion on the blog just mention it here on this page and I will get in touch with you via the email you use to post (so if you want to be a contributor you better be using a real email!)

Enjoy the ride folks!

74 thoughts on “Welcome

  1. Hi RP

    you obviously had more success than I had – I started up a Signposts2 Final which hasn’t appeared on the web yet simply to give people a chance to say goodbye.

    I emailed Lance the day after he pulled the pin, because I gathered that is what he had done.

    I sent a thanks to him when I got the word but I think he might have taken an extended holiday as he hasn’t responded.

    Who can blame him.

    Anyway – I’m glad someone else has picked up the baton.

    For mine now that I know you’re on the case I will look in occasionally but I really need to focus on other things for a while.

    Thanks for your contributions in the previous lives, and hope it goes well for you here

    Regards

    MN

  2. Yes, indeed, who can blame him.

    MN, its just great to know that you are out there still and have found us again. This site formed out of those of us who found ‘signposts3’ before it got taken down too. Still don’t know who set that one up – can only guess.

    I’m administrating here for now, but other people are also contributing posts, so this is now a community effort. If I decide to stop for some reason, I’ll let everyone know in time to pass the admin role on, or let people say goodbye, so we won’t have the plug pulled again unless WordPress pulls its plug. In fact, since we have several authors, it could continue without me right now.

    It will be good to have you look in and join in if you have the time – I enjoyed your contributions on the previous blog and missed your input here. But in the meantime, good luck with all those other things you are focussing on – hope all goes very well.

    May God bless you!
    RP

  3. Cheers RP.

    You too!

    This is a ministry I believe which can be used of God as a light on the hill to mix Australian cultural and biblical metaphors, a blessing and ministry to those who may need some after whatever, and simple plain old fellowship.

  4. AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    This has been up since april 28th 2008?????

  5. Hi Bull! Good to see you are still out there.

    This site is now administered by S&P (I did it for a few months), and if you’d like to author a post, I’m sure he’d take my recommendation to make you an author. There are several people here who can author, not necessarily having the same viewpoints.

    Its a less active site than it used to be, but is still active.

    Hope all is well with you – and Happy New Year!

    Cheers,
    RP

  6. Important Note About Me:
    The more authors we have on Signposts02, the more various things we have to discuss.

    Everyone seems to see where my focus seems to lie. Unfortunately, my passion can get the better of me and I can say some stupid things. Fortunately, I am open to listen and make changes if people make comments about what I have written or said. I’m growing as I write.

    My user-name is a reminder for myself to make me wonder if I am being a hypocrite or reasonable in the issues that I believe need to be looked at.

    I’ve observed that people like to be challenged with controversial topics. This is an art-form I need to master. I pray that you all will be blessed but challenged at Signposts02 so that the issues raised may sharpen the minds of all of you. We are to love the Lord with all are hearts, but with also are MIND, soul and strength. Looking forward to running this race with you all!

  7. Oh dear god, this is what my incredibly precious brothers and sisters were dealing with. this is a most awful thing to have read, a most awful thing for a group of “christians” to have done to younger brothers and sisters.

  8. I went to the Balmain C3 church once and it really scared me.

    Aside from the face the pastor spoke down to every one, he openly mocked members of the congregation and humiliated them and no one thought anything wrong of it.
    It left a very bitter taste in my mouth and since then I’ve told everyone who would listen to STAY AWAY from Balmain C3.

    Good on you for starting this blog where people who’ve been hurt by C3 can gather and recover with the help of God and the support of each other.

  9. Dearest in Christ,

    Calvary greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus
    Christ.I am Deacon Patrick mclaren a member of Redeem
    Ministry, basically a prayer and deliverance ministry.
    During a Prayer and fasting session in my Ministry, I
    asked our Lord Jesus Christ to give me the opportunity
    to redeem my life and purify what remains of my
    wealth.
    God delivered revealed to me to Invest in His
    Kingdom and also give to the needie,orphanages,widows,and charities.I will want you to please get back to me so that you can lead me through to the right way of the lord.

    Remain blessed
    Patrick mclaren

  10. Bull, I understand your sentiment re Chirpy and the subject he was talking about. I originally said I would not comment, because it angers me so much. And looking over the subject matter – testimonies and videos either make you cry or rage with anger.

    But, I realized that I erred in a way. Because I honestly think the whole subject is beyond debate (as most everyone does except conspiracy theorists, and anti-semitics, I didn’t address his specific points, but talked in generalities – which didn’t satisfy him.

    As a Christian, it really bothers me that a young Christian (I assume Chirpy is young), has been sucked into that nonsense. But, I think he is just honestly mistaken and worthy to engage. So I would like to answer his questions – I am sure that if someone works through point by point and shows him the abundance of evidence he will change. If nobody does that, he could easily spend the rest of his life being further poisoned by idiotic websites. So, I won’t comment anymore on this blog, but would like to communicate with him.

    If you read this post – I will say to you Chirpy that I DID read that website (blog) you listed. So, according to you, I have moral courage!

    Bull, please feel free to pass on my email address to Chirpy. I want to engage him and show him the truth. But, I agree that this blog is probably not the best place to do it.

    How does that sound? Chirpy, if Bull gives you my email address, I will gladly answer your questions on this subject.
    Thanks in advance for your understanding. If Bull doesn’t give you my email address, or if you decide to not take me up on the offer Chirpy, I will just say that I have 100% confidence that I can convince you, if you approach the subject with an open mind. And I agree to read any websites you list. (I’m already familiar with the content anyway – Yes, I’ve read revisionist history).

    Sorry Bull for continuing on that other thread. If nobody answers these people, the internet will just get gradually taken over by nonsense like that. Already, if you do a search, the crackpot theories come up all the time. Young people who have missed out on decades of literature, documentaries and anecdotes, can easily be deceived. The internet is a great resource but unfortunately because of the the whole “link” system, people who don’t understand proper research methods can just get stuck in a narrow internet world based on only one view.

    So, there is my offer. Bless you all.

  11. churchman, that blog went on for days and days. You had every chance to respond to my points. You responded to nothing. I asked you three times to reference a credible resource to back up your figure of 9 million Jews in Europe before WWII and 3 million after. You didn’t supply any evidence for these figures.

    Now you want to discuss the subject? The discussion is over. I wouldn’t waste any more time on you. You’re not worth it. You are not intelligent enough to approach the discussion in an objective way as evidenced by your assumption in your post above that I’m young.

    The video I posted about 9/11 near the bottom of the thread proves that the North Tower of the World Trade Center was brought down using explosives. Nobody responded to that video because it simply can’t be refuted.

    Then Bull closes the thread. The whole thing would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

  12. I asked what sources you would deem as credible? You claim things and your sources are all from revisionist history websites which nobody considers credible except who? People who hate Jews!

    I assumed you were young because of the way you argued. I was hoping. If in fact you are old and have kids then I feel like weeping. I’ve never said this to anyone on this blog, and I’ve always tried to be civil, but really Chirpy, you are a complete idiot. Seriously. Only an idiot would argue the way you do and then assume that if people don’t respond to a specific ludicrous point that they can’t refute it. We can communicate by email. It’s very easy. The offer is there, and I can answer every question. Very easily.

    See, I was trying to be nice but you responded like that. LIke I said, I read that website you offered. It’s ridiculously stupid. A person who believed that would probably believe that Pringle is doing satanic hand gestures during sermons to signal his mates back at the coven…..

    Come on, let’s do it by email. I don’t want you to embarrass yourself any further. And Bull doesn’t want this blog to be marred by raving that is not only nonsense, but evil.

    Is Wikipedia at all credible? Are encyclopedias at all credible?
    Are US govt figures, UK govt figures at all credible? Jewish statistics? German? Polish? Multiple books written about the holocaust? They all say the same thing. If you only accept statistics given by anti-semites, then how can there be any discussion?

    Btw, if you had done any research you would realize that the 6 million figure is an approximate rounded up figure, and that nobody claims that 6 million were gassed with zyklon B.

    If you haven’t learned about death by bullets, forced starvation,
    carbon monoxide.. (did you read about carbon monoxide? or is that something you haven’t thought of, or not researched thoroughly enough?), then you are just another goof who stumbled on some hate-filled websites.

    “The whole thing would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.”

    Nothing funny about it at all. Makes me wonder about the education of Australians, and if there isn’t something in the water that renders people incapable of basic reading and comprehension skills. But that isn’t it because 99% of people aren’t holocaust deniers.

    No, not funny at all. I’ve only actually met one person in real life who denies the holocaust. And he believes every other idiotic theory too. You name it.

    Start your own blog and i will comment on it tough guy.
    How about that?

    When you come to your senses and learn the truth, I hope you truly repent and go do charity work for Jews.

    Yep, and it won’t bother me if I get banned from this site either. I would be okay with being banned for calling a holocaust denier a complete idiot.

  13. churchman, I’ve told you time and time again; I will repeat it again now: I don’t deny the holocaust of Jews which involved the death of many Jewish prisoners in Nazi Germany. What I deny is that any Jewish prisoners in Nazi Germany were killed by gassing. That you continue to call me a “holocaust denier” is further evidence of your intellectual dishonesty.

    From the Bible:

    “And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.”

    Matthew 5:22

    You are sinning by calling me an idiot.

  14. “I don’t deny the holocaust of Jews which involved the death of many Jewish prisoners in Nazi Germany”

    Chirpy, I was actually going to call you a fool, because I knew you would then quote that verse. To which, I say, I don’t mind being in danger of hell fire for calling someone an idiot who denies the holocaust.

    So, here is a short summary for you. 6 million is a round figure. I believe it’s about 5.7 million who died. Not all of that number died by systematic gassing. Many Jews were shot to death. Some died as a result of evil medical experiments. Many were worked to death. They were purposely given a very reduced diet so that they would work for a short time and then die. Many died as a result of lack of medical care -on purpose.

    There were concentration camps in Germany. Deaths by gassing occurred in these, but not on a large scale like in other countries. Most of the so called death camps or extermination camps were in Poland. There were 6 big ones that are famous, but there were many many more scattered through many Nazi controlled countries. Zyklon B was used, but carbon monoxide was used moreso.

    Even if you just search around youtube, there is more than enough audio and video evidence. Have you read much about the Nuremburg trials? Do you know who Rudolph Hess was? Himmler?

    As well as Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, russian prisoners, Jehovah’s Witnesses, mentally ill – different categories of undesirables were murdered.

    So, if you are willing to bother arguing the point that you believe in the holocaust but all your comments were just to try and prove that no Jews were killed by “gassing” inside Germany itself, I don’t get why you would bother doing it. That wouldn’t negate the horror of the holocaust.

    But, if you are going to say that NO Jews were killed by gassing in Dachau which was in Germany, show me your credible sources.

    If you want to argue that it wasn’t 5.7 million, but only 3 million or 1 million that died……why? If you want to argue that the number of Jews killed purposely by gassing is not 6 million, then I have no argument with you. But to go from that to say that there is some Jewish conspiracy going on is nonsense.

    So what if 6 million didn’t die from Zyklon B. Nobody says that anyway.

    If you can find an error on the Wikipedia entries under Holocaust, Death Camps, Final Solution, then let me know. They are sourced. If you can give me any proof why the numbers listed are not right, then show me your credible sources. Because the listings of labor camps, and extermination camps, and overall descriptions are backed up by sources – and the articles are basic summaries of facts that most people (except revisionist historians ) agree on.

    I will say again. do you know what kind of people are revisionists? They hate Jews. In the end when they are cornered they end up saying that the Jews deserved to be persecuted.

    Just read or listen to speeches of Hitler, Himmler, Hess (or Hoss)
    It’s all there. You can argue about exact numbers of where people were killed and whether it was by Zyklon B or carbon monoxide, but the intent was there. And plans were indeed made.

    My friend’s father was a young man who was there to help liberate a camp.

    If you like read about Katrin Himmler, whose great Uncle was Heinrich. She has written a book. She doesn’t argue with what her Uncle was responsible for.

    I am sure if you read more, listen more, and watch more documentaries you will repent with sackcloth and ashes. If you study properly and still don’t get it, I’ll probably do another Matthew 5:22.

  15. churchman, you write like a troll. You twist my words, put words in my mouth which I haven’t said and make extrapolations that I haven’t made.

    It’s people like you who give blogging a bad name.

    Bull has closed the thread. I no longer want to discuss this with you.

  16. “to tell an idiot that he is an idiot is indeed sin.”

    Is it?

    Okay, Goodbye Chirpy. (Though I notice that when I finally bring out facts and figures you run). So, go away. But remember to study.

  17. DOn’t hijack this thread either, please. The last thing I want to do is close comments on every post due to this subject.

    No one agrees with Chirpy. Let’s leave it there.

  18. Bull, understood. Sorry.

    Sorry to Chirpy too while I’m at it.

    I have a huge character flaw that expresses itself online and in real life that sometimes causes me to go way overboard in my responses.

    I will fix that. Sincerely. Forgive me.

    I need to get back to the things that God called me to. Bless you people.

  19. OK, we can’t tell an idiot that he is an idiot, as that would not be a redemptive act.

    But we can tell an idiot that his views, beliefs, opinions or actions are idiotic. That way we are judging what he does, and not judging the person.

    Then it is redemptive, bcos it may dawn on him that he is indeed an idiot and should repent.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  20. churchman, I forgive you. I always find I have to resist doing the same thing that you’re talking about and I’m not always successful by any means.

    We all get frustrated when people don’t agree with the point that we’re trying to make. It’s natural and the feelings of frustration are strong.

    The blogging environment is a highly challenging environment.

  21. Did some checking on your site.
    The Glory Conference posted as a Prophetic Roundtable event is not. It is a shame that people maskerade as Born again Believers and Lie and try to make you believe their false statements about good people.

  22. Lionfish, are you attempting to upload more than one link in your comments? WordPress puts a default block on this to prevent spammers sending rubbish.

    It’s a long time since anyone was banned from here, and I don’t think you would warrant this, especially with the more congenial and emotionally secure Bull in charge.

  23. Hi, I was googling New Earth Tribe & I came up with this site. Do you guys have a bone to point at this group? I cant work out what you are on about. New Earth Tribe used to meet a few blocks away from where I lived. Sunday afternoon I would get woken up by their music, after a weekend of pot smoking. That was code for me to smoke more pot & go to their church. I really loved the music about Jesus & they were kind & caring and never judged me, even when I found some of the pretty chicks attractive & would have loved to have humped a few. But the chicks were so pure & innocent they got my full respect & honor. I started attending them & well after much pray & tears about the idea of never getting stoned again, I dont smoke as much as I used too. 1 joint in 9 months. & while I’d still like to bonk a few of the sheilas, my hearty has changed & I feel protective of them now. And sex is for marrage. So why the F*** are you C**** bagging a good church, you arsholes.

  24. You are aware Dave of this scripture

    But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart

    This basically means any normal red-blooded male whos not homosexual will go to hell (as will homosexuals of course)

  25. OK Im sorry if I offended anyone, That was way way off the planet. Please forgive me for saying such silly things. I guess as a single bloke I was jusitfing my desires as a extention of the Song of Songs & calling people names is really unhappy karma, & I think Jesus wasnt happy. So Im really sorry for writing what I did. Peace & love

  26. Thanks for commenting, Dave. Don’t mind wazza2. He was just cruelly using you to argue with others.

    Your comments are noted and relevant.

    If you are found by Jesus through this group and hand your life over to him, he will give you a greater intoxication than pharmaceuticals or alcohol can ever give.

    He’ll give you the Holy Spirit. Clean, pure, love! And free!

    I hope you take the extra steps into Jesus full time, full heart. It’s well worth the journey.

    I say this as a former drug and alcohol addict, now free from substance dependence for many years.

    God bless you!

  27. So, Steve, you’re suggesting the Holy Spirit is just a better alternative to drugs?

    What about the Holy Spirit plus drugs? Wow!

  28. The Holy Spirit isn’t ‘just’ anything. He is ‘Just’, but not the way you mean.

    He is absolutely holy, righteous and just.

    And he doesn’t do drugs.

  29. im very sad when anything arise regarding hillsong for all i can hear for one is jesus saying come as you are and you have now every tool required for the journey cultish scam it is i see alotta people suffering needlessly everyday within community and yet even the local christian brain has a hillsong approach go the meeting is all entertainment whatever jesus if that is you choose to follow as i choose nothing of this world give to ceasar was is his hey ah well my bible say god same 1thousand years as a second etc no change for god he say one day i turn my back all in his hands so happy i found only jesus and not mans game praise god

  30. I’m a nobody here so it’s probably not my place to make suggestions, but maybe signposts needs to start again with some moderation policies and rules etc.
    Maybe in the distant past there wasn’t a need for it. But things change, and websites evolve. Just a thought.

  31. All very well, DOL, but the only way you can possibly be switching ip’s at this rate on this blog is by putting in false email addresses.

    Now this is, surely, potential identity theft, since, even if you are randomly adding email names you must eventually hit upon someone’s genuine email address.

    Still, why should you be concerned about this when you have shown yourself to be a liar and false prophet, amongst all else, in the space of a few days.

    I know it is possible to create a new email profile on Hotmail, Gmail or Yahoo, or other free email outlets, but this takes far more time than it takes for you to flick comments up here under different pseudonyms with a new gravatar for each.

    Maybe your conscience is so seared you don’t care whose email you steal for your scam.

  32. Bull, there’s a post above here you might like to delete, for the sake of poor Brooke Fraser. (You can delete my comment here too – only mentioning this to bring it to your attention.)

  33. Thanks RP … I have spent a couple of hours going through as many comments as I could … looks like he was bored over Christmas.

    I have gotten rid of the spam, but left stuff he posted over 6 months ago … i assume he was genuine back then and something has happened since then.

    Shalom

  34. You need to contact Bull and ask him to give you posting rights. He will set you up with an account access to produce and moderate posts.

  35. I thought first time posters had to wait for their comment to be moderated and then could post at will. If that is so, how come all this spam keeps hitting random threads?

  36. “Bull, if you’re out there I’m ready to be unleashed.”

    I like that line. Sounds like something from Gladiator.

    Two of my favorite movie lines. “unleash hell” and “I’ll show them something they’ve never seen before”.

    Go Bones. Don’t take no prisoners either. 🙂

  37. Is this an appropriate place to put requests for article topics?

    e.g We probably all have people who look to us for advice re issues in life. There’s a few questions I’d be interested in getting your input on. Anyway, is this the place to ask? I have some real rubber meets the road questions.

  38. And some of you may be in some kind of pastoral role and others may have extensive life experience etc that gives a unique perspective.

  39. Hi,I have a question. My husband has had many affairs and has lied,alot, he’s also a Pastoral student and our Pastor is his advisor. I finally had enough and sent our Pastor a detailed email describing everything,thinking he would at least not SUPPORT MY HUSBAND IN SENDING OUT RESUMES AT LEAST!All he has done is go golfing with him. When I called a meeting with him,he said he’s “not a counselor and just thought I wanted him to get close to Jeff”I asked him if that was AG protocol and he said that there isn’t protocol .
    I can’t seem to find AG doctrine but It can’t be biblical.
    Any ideas?

  40. Bones,
    How do you post articles on the homepage?

    Do you have authoring rights, yet?

    If not, you need to request that Greg give you authoring rights, then open the dashboard, go to posts, new post, and start the process.

  41. Alice,
    The truth is that the thread was out of control.

    Bones was levelling some pretty unsavoury stuff at Q, who was trying to fight back, but copping some disgusting abuse from Bones, who was attributing homosexual acts to Q, even after Q requested he desist.

    I was out during the time this was happening, so I didn’t see it until I returned.

    Q had already left the site by the time I was able to do anything about the situation, and had repeatedly asked Bones to stop the abuse.

    You could have left them to it, but, instead, levelled a long worded accusation at Q and practically condoned what Bones was saying, as you just did again on this thread.

    Q asked that his comments be removed, as well as the abuse from Bones, which I would have done anyway had I been present when it was going on. Bones was merey baiting Q, and everyone else for that matter, and was deliberately setting himself up to be moderated. His was a challenge to the entire site, not just Q.

    Then, when I had removed the offensive comments, you decided to place four accusative comments levelled at me for dealing with the situation. I removed them because hey were unnecessary and unkind, not to mention defamatory. I did you a favour.

    Then you placed the threat above on this page, so I shut down the entire post, but now you issue another rebuke.

    I am handing this situation over to Greg.

    I removed the post as a result of your request on this page, so everyone can see what threats you made. I do not have moderating rights over this page, so Greg can deal with it as he sees fit.

    The post I removed is still available to be reposted if Greg, who runs this site, so desires. He can also restore all the comments, including the abuse from Bones, and your defamatory remarks, if he so desires.

    You actually said to everyone that you were leaving the site and would never comment again.

    The moderators of this site reserve the right to make decisions regarding the content in the comments section. We do not have a policy of preventing freedom of speech, but if a person is clearly trolling, or abusive, or a spammer, or persistently changing the subject away from that of the general commentary, then it is perfectly acceptable for them to moderate what it’s taking place.

    We may endorse freedom of speech, but no one is free to abuse other people, or level defamatory remarks, or abuse copyright laws, or any number of things which we oversee.

    How is it freedom of speech if a person is allowed to abuse another and falsely accuse them without response? That is a one-sided freedom, and is not acceptable. There is also freedom from assault, injury and abuse.

    WordPress, I think you’ll find, has a policy of allowing people who run blogs to moderate their sites for themselves and will not interfere with those who run the site.

    Finally, if you think you have the power or authority to rebuke me or Greg in the Lord, you are deluded. The curse causeless is without effect. If God wants to rebuke me I’m sure he’ll do it in love, since, whom He loves He corrects. But yours are nothing but fiery darts which are quenched by the shield of faith.

    Meanwhile, perhaps you can satisfy yourself in the knowledge that, as a result of your comments and the abuse laid down by Bones, we have lost our good friend Q, who is not only a nice bloke, but one of the fairest and most humorous commenters on this and other blogs.

    Well done. You must be pleased with yourselves.

  42. Alice,
    I did not make anyone look bad. If anyone ‘looks bad’ it is because of what they say, not because of my opinion. I am just a contributor to the conversation, but there are loosely formed rules.

    I am no misogynist. I said nothing sexist to you or about you. I am not given to either sexist remarks or false accusations. There is enough of my commentary on this blog for anyone to come to that conclusion.

    However, your continual confrontational stance is already evidenced on this thread by he comments you are making.

    In my opinion, no one was dealing with in a sexist manner because you are a woman. Q said some things which were his opinion, but as a defence mechanism against things said about him. That’s the way it goes on blogs sometimes. This has never been known as a soft blog environment. You must have known war you were getting into within a very short time. You contributed to it, and still are contributing to it. You have said some very unkind things about me already on this thread.

    My opinion of E W Kenyon is as valid as anyone’s, perhaps more valid because, first of all, I have a collection his works in my library which I have taken the time to read, secondly, I have some excellent material on his life and history, some of which is not recorded in his critics works, thirdly, my research has given me enough information for me to be able to discuss the subject with anyone who chooses to converse with me about his life and ministry.

    I aslo declared at least three times that I do not agree with all of his theology, but that my specific interest in the criticism of charismatics is that it is claimed by critics that Word o Faith came out of E W Kenyon’s ministry, and, further, that he was influenced by metaphysics, including New Thought and Christian Science.

    All of these things I have ably refuted. I regretted having to take down the thread in question because the evidence I put on that thread outlining why E W Kenyon’s critics are wrong is now lost because a couple of people were so undisciplined in their commentary that I was obliged to shut the thread down.

    Perhaps you could let the people who lurk here and read these threads know whether you have ever read any of E W Kenyon’s works. I asked a couple of times but you refrained from responding.

    I would have much preferred to have left the evidence on the thread for others to read. In fact I had just gone into an extended dialogue with Greg, and another with wazza, which were being conducted in a decent manner.

    You claim I was not able to control the conversation on the blog. Well, of course moderators can’t be responsible for what contributors say. if they are out of hand whilst the moderator is out shopping with his wife, what can the moderator do but return and deal with any excess. In this you are being throughly unreasonable.

    Further, if I Greg was to decide to republish the post and thread in question, and restore the entire commentary, which he can still do, I think you would find that the comments made by Bones towards Q at the latter end of the thread were to only inflammatory, but highly abusive to the point that Q was terribly upset by them. I an’t really understand your defence o them. Other things Bones said were fine, and remained in the thread, but the offending conversation was removed.

    I’m sure you’ll continue this, but I have no wish to be engaged in your accusations, so it’s probably better to wait for Greg to make a decision, as I am sure he will.

  43. And your use of churchman’s comments is an irony which will not be missed by regular commenters here. LOL!

  44. I’m going to ask you to desist from being accusative, please Alice. I think you’ve more than made your point now. You obviously don’t think much of me. We hear you.

    The whole thread was removed, so everyone’s comment was affected, mine included, which I am disappointed about. No one was singled out after I removed Bones’ and Qs exchange, apart form your last comments, which were unnecessary in he circumstances.

    I was in response to your own demand that I remove all comments which you deemed derogatory. Rather than sift through the entire thread to see who said what to whom, I decided to remove the lot. So it was you who called the shots on it. It is done. I don’t see what else you can ow complain about.

    You can read into it what you will, and I’m sure you have made your mind up about several things.

    Whether anyone was ‘sexist’ towards you is debatable. I wasn’t.

    Perhaps Q was in response your extraordinary claims about men in general, but that should be no problem to you now that he has decided to stop commenting.

    So, have you ever read any of E W Kenyon’s works, Alice? You still haven’t let us know.

  45. For the record, the exchange in question here between Bones and Q, which I have just reviewed, should never surface here again. It was shameful, and I don’t think even Bones would argue that it should be gone.

    It started after a few feisty exchanges involving Bones and others, when he said the following to Q:

    I mainly stayed out of it till you decided to become Jakes’s bitch…

    Q took exception to being called ‘Jakes bitch’, and there followed a long and angry exchange during which they made several crude suggestions to one another involving anal sex and threats of physical violence, Bones being the main provocateur.

    The reference to being someone’s ‘bitch’ was entirely aimed at Q by Bones. At no stage did Q accuse anyone of being a bitch.

    However, in the middle of their spat, Alice came up with the following comment…

    ‘Q – you are the creep, you are extremely rude and unpleasant and by far the worst hypocrite of all and I wonder – if you do (which I doubt) go around talking to people like you do on here – that somebody hasn’t punched your lights out. People like you are cowards, you say things to women that are rude to an extreme which you wouldn’t dare to say to macho men at a bar, You called me a bitch, and other very insulting SEXIST things – i.e. things which you could only say to a woman not to a man – and you don’t like it when you get any of it back.’

    Never, in all of the thread did Q call Alice a bitch. He was defending himself from Bones’ insult.

    That is why I removed Alice’s comment when I removed theirs,

    Finally, in this record, after I had removed this exchange, Alice added the following comment addressed to me…

    Then Steve you ought to take ALL of it down, not just bits that YOU have selected.

    Now that the whole thread is down, Alice is demanding it be replaced. It won’t be, unless Greg decides otherwise.

    Greg can confirm the record here. I will not reproduce the exchange between Bones and Q because it is disgusting even by the standards of this site, and I think even they will agree this is the right course of action.

  46. So which of Kenyon’s books or articles have you ever read, Alice?

    By the way, I have never heard any Patricia King messages, only one Bill Johnson message, and never been in a Toronto Blessing (so-called) meeting in my life, which only goes to sow how presumptuous you are being.

    Rick Warren is a completely different ministry, most of which I do not agree with doctrinally. He is in no way Word of Faith. I doubt he’s ever read anything by Kenyon. Why would he?

    Again, as I have said, I do not agree with all Kenyon teaches. Could you write note to yourself, please? ‘Steve says he doesn’t agree with all of kenyon’s doctrine’> Thanks.

    I am merely making a case that Kenyon is neither the ‘father of the word of faith movement’, nor a teacher of metaphysical philosophy, New Thought or Christian Science.

    There are other ministries which are far more likely to be the ‘founders’ of what is modern word of faith ministry, some of which I agree with, and some of which I do not.

    I won’t speak about the founders to you because I don’t think there’s any point, frankly. But I may write an article about it sometime.

    But, please, tell us which of Kenyon’s works you have ever read.

  47. Alice,
    Bones…saying some things tongue in cheek

    Yeah, right. Maybe I should reproduce some of his ‘tongue in cheek’ comments I removed! I don’t think the tongue or the cheek were the anatomy being discussed.

    And Q did not call you a bitch. There were other things he said, which I removed from the comments because they were rude to you, but you won’t accept this for some reason. I removed his comments about you, Alice.

    As I said, Greg can check through and confirm that I am correct.

    I don’t think you should persist with this conversation because it is not edifying, and I’m over it now.

    Now, for the last time I am asking you to stop being accusative towards me.

    I have done my best to resolve a difficult situation.

    You don’t like me, and can’t find a way to appreciate what I am trying to say to or what I believe. Fine. I will note that.

    I’m sorry you were offended by things said in that thread.

    I have no more to say about the issue.

    It’s time to move on and let it go.

  48. I have deleted every comment of Alice’s and blocked her from posting. I had thought it would be nice to have a woman’s touch around here for a little, but we ended up with an extreme deterioration which we all had hoped we’d left behind us on this site.

  49. To the powers that be,
    There are two interesting articles on Charisma magazine which might interest people here.
    One is about the atheist brother of Christopher Hitchins who became a believer!

    The other is an explanation from a longtime friend of Yonggi Cho、who as you know is going through some problems.

  50. I assume comments are blocked for “Winds of Change” so I’ll put this here.

    I think It’s a good idea that Greg or one person takes over – even if it’s just a temporary thing.
    I also think it’s regrettable that Bones and Steve aren’t here.

    Given that many of the posts here have been anti-C3, HIllsong,etc, it’s surely a good thing to have a voice from within that stream to present the defence. Steve is obviously very dogmatic and a pain in the neck when you don’t agree with him….(see, I’m not a complete cheerleader), but the fact that he left because he realised he “offended a brother” shows his heart. He’s not a bad guy at all. Just believes what he does strongly (strongly enough to travel the world and do ministry because of the strength of his beliefs), and understandably gets upset after provocation.

    And Bones contribution is obviously missed too. My current history education has been left to this site because Bones was always there to post something I either didn’t know, or reminded me of to set me off to study further.

    Everyone here has gone over the top with comments. The only one who hasn’t is me – back two or three name changes and as many years.

    I can’t see the Calvinists coming back because they are so isolated in their views – to them almost everyone is wrong except a few ministers and even they will get the chop if they speak at the same seminar as someone not – well Calvinist enough.

    So, in case you are reading this, it would be cool to have Steve and Bones back here.

    If anything just to see what Steve thinks about the Popes video message exchange with Copeland!

    As with other posts, if this is seen as dragging up the past, feel free to delete it.

    (Actually, there are many blogs that have a real heavy hand regarding moderation of comments. So, to me it’s pretty normal).

    So, Wazza, why not just for a little while forget about who is or isn’t in charge of authoring.
    You have made another site so you can author away there to your hearts content.

    In the end, regardless of the subject people end up putting out their opinions on anything anyway.

    So, Bones and Steve, if you’re out there, how about rebooting and we all think a little more when we comment. Learn to discuss things here after all that’s gone on, and nothing will be impossible!

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