How well does the church like Jesus’ Gospel

Jesus said a lot of stuff about the Kingdom of God. Do Christian religious institutions support and emulate what he said and did? A quick(ish) survey of Jesus Gospel statements from the book of Mark (Young’s literal translation) compared to what this presby-metho-angli-costal hears in church and reads.

verses synopsis grade comment
2:5 Jesus forgives sins unconditionally (not even repentance required) fail We generally have a human judicial view of forgiveness
3:35 Jesus family are those who do Father’s will fail Our local family are those that trust and obey the pastor and have signed the membership agreement.
4:14-23 our fruit is to hear the word of God have it grow and manifest a harvest of the word of God fail our fruit is get new converts and bring them to our church
4:24-25 our role in the above process is to carefully discern (“measure”) what words are from God in what we hear and if we do otherwise we lose the word of God (we get detuned to it presumably) fail we are to trust what our hierarchy tells us and if we don’t like it we can go to a different institution with a different set of things to tell us
7:5-13 you worship God in vain if you put aside the the command of God for the tradition of men fail we are structured according to the traditions of men, we are taught the traditions of men: word of faith, open heaven, covering, tithing, hierarchical control – single pastors
7:14-23 evil comes from within the heart of man fail evil comes from the devil
8:34-38 to follow Jesus is to

  • disown self
  • take up his cross (an implement of putting-to-death wielded by the establishment)
  • lose one’s life (presumably via the cross)

in order to obtain Jesus’ life

fail to follow Jesus is to attend church, give to the church and receive material blessing
9:35 to be first in the body is to be servant to all fail to be first in the body is to be the top of a hierarchy that does not question you
10:1-2 divorce and remarriage is adultery fail I never heard this discussed from the pulpit
10:13-16 you can’t accept the reign of Father God except unless you become as a little child fail we don’t encourage the father/son relationship with God in my experience
10:17-18 no man is good but God poor I think we know this theologically but lack of humility in the hierarchies suggests we don’t really get it – but then hierarchies are like that
10:19-27 it is near impossible to be saved if you trust in riches fair the bretheren are told not to trust in riches but the institutions (CCC anyway) talk about giving more than anything else in my experience – the institutions need to be constantly saved by riches
10:28-31 when you give up your life you gain all things plus persecution plus eternal life poor the message is more that you give to get a prosperous life
10:35-45 Jesus does not grant positions in the kingdom of God. Leaders are not to rule or exercise authority but to be servants. fail church structure is all about positional authority and even revelation is from the “higher annointing”
11:17 My Father’s house is a house of prayer for the nations but you have made it a den of robbers fail Steve Munsey, Benny Hinn, CCC’s annual money for miracles offering – I rest my case
11:21-24 if you have God’s faith ask what you will and if you have faith that you have received it you will receive it (“believe” is the verb form of “faith”) poor you can decide what God will do if you believe strongly enough
11:25-26 forgive or you will not be forgiven poor we are pretty keen to judge others, homosexuals, non-tithers, people who are late to church, “dead” churches etc
16:15 as you go into the world spread the good news to all creation fair we understand about preaching to people but not to the rest of creation – it is also used as a guilt stick sometimes to tell us we are all supposed to be missionaries
16:16 faith leading to immersion in Jesus leads to salvation otherwise you remain as you are – not in Jesus and so without life and therefore dying fair we get the salvation by faith bit but tend to see hell as judgement for sin and like to get on the bandwagon and judge people too
16:17 signs to accompany believers (as a group): new tongues, demon casting, snake lifting, poison swilling, and healing good not that an individual must do these to prove you are a beleiver

Warning: results may vary

My recent background is CCC (15 years or so), before that Anglican (4 years maybe) and before that Methodist/Presbyterian (forever) so I may not have your current viewpoint.

The sysnopses are my understanding of Jesus words and deeds. The comments refer to what I have been taught in church and what I have read my hierarchy and their peers say. You may have read Jesus differently. You may have been taught differently. Also I have omitted verses I don’t understand (the self-mutilation verses) or those that don’t pertain to the kingdom (so much). I left out Mark 13 (end time prophecies) because the topic is too big.

When I started this survey I really thought we would do better than this. I was thinking we would have a few clangers especially the structure of the church because that came from Rome but I thought we would mostly get it right. Not so much.


22 thoughts on “How well does the church like Jesus’ Gospel

  1. On the divorce issue, (10:1-2), last year at the AOG conference they voted to allow divorce in the cases of abandonment and physical abuse. The AOG will allow remarriage in the church in these cases.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/hillsong-to-vote-on-new-grounds-for-divorce/2007/04/22/1177180487713.html

    AOG VP Alun Davies said “We think in contemporary Australia we could not have a policy that did not not include domestic violence,” he said. “We can’t just ignore it as if it doesn’t exist … we are prepared to give an answer that gives a well thought out, reasoned Biblical perspective on these modern issues.”

    Dissenters were Danny Nahlia and Andrew Evans.

    Personally I agree with the AOG conference’s interpretation in this instance. To rule out divorce in all circumstances is to practically invite abuse. But it is an interpretation that takes into account the nature of contemporary Australian society, and a wider view of scripture and the nature of God than just those verses.

    Which begs the question, if they can do that on one issue, why cant they do it on other issues?

  2. Interesting topic, wazza.

    Jesus did not condemn the woman caught in adultery, but encouraged her to sin no more. He successfully discouraged those who wanted to stone her from doing so. To me, this shows that while we can acknowledge divorce and remarriage as adultery, since Jesus made that clear, we also cannot judge or condemn those who do so, and if we do, we also condemn ourselves.

    Not only that, what constitutes a marriage? Many if not all marriages would fail to meet the ideal laid out in scripture, where mutual submission is the mode. (What is laying down one’s life for another but the ultimate dying to one’s own needs in favour of the other person – if anyone questions that the submission is mutual?) Where a partner forces their partner in any way, the scriptural marriage model is broken, and in a sense, the partner is being unfaithful even if they are still married. So the marriage becomes a mockery and in name only. In such a situation, divorce has already occurred in the heart, if not in the letter. So I would personally favour the AOG stance on this issue, as a recognition of reality, and extend grace to those in difficult situations rather than having them live a lie.

    Jesus did not come to condemn anyone, but to show us the Way to the Father. I guess in the instance of divorce and remarriage, we are to do likewise, and encourage one another, looking forward, and extending grace to our brethren for our past and current struggles.

    I’m not surprised that Heretic hasn’t heard divorce taught on from the pulpit – such a delicate topic, and one wouldn’t want to accidentally deliver guilt to those in the congregation who have been through this issue. It would take some skill, and ideally leading from the Holy Spirit to both acknowledge and teach on the sin, but also teach on the grace we find through Jesus.

    I guess most Pente churches deal with this area via marriage classes etc, focussing more on encouraging healthy relationships than dwelling on the bad ones. Still, bad ones do happen, and abuse has been condoned over divorce by some churches, which is clearly not what Jesus would have wanted as it is in no way compassionate or loving.

  3. 1. Jesus forgives sins unconditionally (not even repentance required)… FAIL
    We generally have a human judicial view of forgiveness.

    2. Jesus’ family are those who do the Father’s will… FAIL
    Our local family are those that trust and obey the pastor and have signed the membership agreement.

    3. Our fruit is to hear the word of God have it grow and manifest a harvest of the Word of God… FAIL
    Our fruit is get new converts and bring them to our church

    4. Our role in the above process is to carefully discern (”measure”) what words are from God in what we hear… FAIL
    We are to trust what our hierarchy tells us and if we don’t like it we can go to a different institution with a different set of things to tell us

    5. You worship God in vain if you put aside the the command of God for the tradition of men… FAIL
    We are structured according to the traditions of men, we are taught the traditions of men: word of faith, open heaven, covering, tithing, hierarchical control – single pastors

    6. Evil comes from within the heart of man… FAIL
    Evil comes from the devil

    7. To follow Jesus is to
    * disown self
    * take up his cross (an implement of putting-to-death wielded by the establishment)
    * lose one’s life (presumably via the cross)
    in order to obtain Jesus’ life… FAIL

    8. To follow Jesus is to attend church, give to the church and receive material blessing.

    9. To be first in the body is to be servant to all… FAIL
    To be first in the body is to be the top of a hierarchy that does not question you

    10. Divorce and remarriage is adultery… FAIL
    I never heard this discussed from the pulpit

    11. You can’t accept the reign of Father God except unless you become as a little child… FAIL
    We don’t encourage the father/son relationship with God in my experience

    12. No man is good but God… POOR
    I think we know this theologically but lack of humility in the hierarchies suggests we don’t really get it – but then hierarchies are like that

    13. It is near impossible to be saved if you trust in riches… FAIR
    The brethren are told not to trust in riches but the institutions, (CCC anyway), talk about giving more than anything else in my experience – the institutions need to be constantly saved by riches. When you give up your life you gain all things plus persecution plus eternal life poor the message is more that you give to get a prosperous life

    14. Jesus does not grant positions in the kingdom of God. Leaders are not to rule or exercise authority but to be servants… FAIL
    Church structure is all about positional authority and even revelation is from the “higher annointing”

    15. My Father’s house is a house of prayer for the nations but you have made it a den of robbers… FAIL
    Steve Munsey, Benny Hinn, CCC’s annual money for miracles offering

    16. If you have God’s faith ask what you will and if you have faith that you have received it you will receive it (”believe” is the verb form of “faith”)… POOR
    You can decide what God will do if you believe strongly enough

    17. Forgive or you will not be forgiven… POOR
    We are pretty keen to judge others, homosexuals, non-tithers, people who are late to church, “dead” churches etc.

    18. As you go into the world spread the good news to all creation… FAIR
    We understand about preaching to people but not to the rest of creation – it is also used as a guilt stick sometimes to tell us we are all supposed to be missionaries

    19. Faith leading to immersion in Jesus leads to salvation otherwise you remain as you are – not in Jesus and so without life and therefore dying… FAIR
    We get the salvation by faith bit but tend to see hell as judgment for sin and like to get on the bandwagon and judge people too. Signs to accompany believers (as a group): new tongues, demon casting, snake lifting, poison swilling, and healing good not that an individual must do these to prove you are a believer.

  4. I wrote it out a different way because I am someone who finds it easier reading a list.
    What you have written up is very informative. But I have to say the heading is misleading.

    I specifically name CCC and Hillsong because those institutions cast other churches in a bad light. However, to throw them in with the ‘church’ I don’t think is right. There are some fantastic ministries that really have fantastic teaching, live the gospel message and do operate in the works of the Holy Spirit.

    The other word in the heading that is misleading is ‘gospel’. The list below has nothing to do with the gospel but rather the works and various other beliefs that seem to dilute the simple message of the gospel.

    The gospel message is clearly stated in Romans 10:

    8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
    9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
    10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

    One thing that is not gospel-sound is something that is entrenched in the minds CCC’ers. The ‘Forgive or you will not be forgiven’ syndrome. This is not a gospel related. Through Christ, we forgive because WE ARE forgiven.

    Divorce is not gospel related either.

  5. The good news:

    John 3:16-21
    16″For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”[h]

    I think that there is more to the ‘gospel’ than the salvation message. When we love truth and light, our world is transformed, and we live in His life now. Either the gospel is the news that truth and light have come, or it includes the truth and light. If it includes that truth and light, it includes parts of the NT concerning works and other beliefs , as they shed light on our world view. As such, they become part of the good news.

    If the NT is interpreted through a world view that is different from that of Jesus, the same verses will be seen in a different light(not His light) , and may cease to be good news. When viewed through His world view, all these explanations of the kingdom, and of how our world and actions are to be seen and measured are good news, not bad. They do not condemn. They assist and enlighten. When something is laid over that news by man that is not good news, it becomes distorted, and its original message is obfuscated. (If you want examples, I will give them.)

  6. S&P “I specifically name CCC and Hillsong because those institutions cast other churches in a bad light. However, to throw them in with the ‘church’ I don’t think is right. There are some fantastic ministries that really have fantastic teaching, live the gospel message and do operate in the works of the Holy Spirit.”

    I refer to what I have seen and heard. Admitedly I am not as widely read as you or as widely travelled as some. But HillSong and CCC did not arise in a vacuum. They did not independantly come up with their strange doctrines. They are part of a world-wide move and represent what their peers believe and do as well. In a very real way they represent the community of saints whose beliefs they share.

    As you point out the move they are part of has not taken everyone. But it has taken a vast amount of people. There are now half a billion pentacostals/charasmatics in the world. People have flocked from other churches to mega-churches. I can’t help but think CCC and Hillsong must be pretty similar to the rest. HS/CCC would certainly regard themselves as mainstream and conservative.

    Yes there are good people who know God. There always are. In the old testament these were called “remnant” and the rest of the people were named together. I know we are not homogenous but we are a single body – I am not separate from my brothers who are of CCC or HS and as a people we do not seem to regard our Head’s words highly (not according to my very simple survey).

    “The other word in the heading that is misleading is ‘gospel’. The list below has nothing to do with the gospel but rather the works and various other beliefs that seem to dilute the simple message of the gospel.”

    All that Jesus says to us is the Gospel – the good news of the reign of God. You can’t pick and choose bits. You stated that the Gospel is “simple”. Does scripture say it is simple? Or is it simple when you don’t think about all the bits that are difficult to fit into your point of view? Jesus’ statement that his words set brother against brother indicate to me that the Gospel is not simple. Our response to it is simple – “simplicity of devotion to Christ” as Paul would say but the real world is not simple so the Gospel which redeems it is probably not simple either in my opinion.

    I suggest Jesus teaching on divorce and the other stuff I don’t understand is also the good news of the kingdom. I just don’t understand how 🙂 I don’t understand, as RP says, because I don’t have Jesus’ world-view. But lots of things become clear over time and having Jesus world-view is part of maturing into Him.

    WRT “forgive or you won’t be forgiven” are you not directly contradicting our Source?

  7. I think some things in the Gospel are meant to be applied to ourselves, but can become abusive if applied to other people. In fact most of the Gospel is like that, if we use it as a measuring stick for other people we get into trouble.

    So the “forgive or you won’t be forgiven” rule is excellent when we use it as a measure and a warning to ourselves. If we use it to say “I know you are hurt by what I did, but you must forgive me or else the Father will not forgive you”, then it is abusive and I believe not what it was meant to be used for.

    Same with the prohibitions against divorce, adultery, love of money etc.

    A lot of the articles list of errors in the Church comes from applying scripture inappropriately to other people (not ourselves).

  8. Interesting point, wazza. Your example, ““I know you are hurt by what I did, but you must forgive me or else the Father will not forgive you” is unfortunately the way it is used towards hurt people at times. That kind of attitude makes reconciliation very difficult due to the lack of dialogue about the pain and responsibility, let alone not assisting the separate issue of forgiveness.

  9. Heretic:
    “WRT “forgive or you won’t be forgiven” are you not directly contradicting our Source?”

    What does WRT mean heretic? I was quoting your statement in the article you typed up “forgive or you will not be forgiven”. I’ll correct this error by saying again that “Through Christ, we forgive because WE ARE forgiven”.

    Heretic:
    “All that Jesus says to us is the Gospel – the good news of the reign of God. You can’t pick and choose bits. You stated that the Gospel is “simple”. Does scripture say it is simple?”

    Here’s a challenge Heretic. Tell me where Jesus says something similar to Paul:

    “if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.”

    So I’ll repeat the simplicity of the gospel message. When one confesses with their mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    “Or is it simple when you don’t think about all the bits that are difficult to fit into your point of view? Jesus’ statement that his words set brother against brother indicate to me that the Gospel is not simple.”

    Actually the gospel is incredibly simple. Yet it is US. HUMANITY. Our odd desire that we think he can love us more if we gave a little more, believed a little more, preached a little more, read a little more, committed more…

    The gospel message is so simple that we complicate it and make it harder for others to believe and follow. All these false doctrines and heresies that people have bought into the church are a result of people robbing people Our test is to rely that Jesus Christ is Lord of our lives.

    Heretic:
    “Jesus’ statement that his words set brother against brother indicate to me that the Gospel is not simple.”

    I don’t think he was associating ‘his words’ to being the gospel message, but rather his teachings and some parables.

    Wazza:
    “In fact most of the Gospel is like that, if we use it as a measuring stick for other people we get into trouble.”
    The gospel uses no measuring stick.

  10. It only takes a small number of simple concepts for something complex to be born, especially when it is applied to an infinite number of varying situations. Principles can be simple. Life complicates things.

  11. We do need to ‘measure’ what we hear though:

    Mark 4:24:
    24″Consider carefully what you hear,” he continued. “With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more. 25Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.”

    If we use the wrong measure we will get lots of the wrong message. Use the right measure – lots of the right message. So we need to understand the measure we use and where it comes from.

  12. I think we are a little at cross-purposes when we are talking about the Gospel.

    There are two meanings, the first is as used in the Bible to mean the “Good News”, the saving grace of God through Jesus.

    The second is as used when we say “The Gospel of Mark” etc. To mean all deeds and words of Jesus as recorded by the early evangelists.

  13. Yes, true, wazza. The term ‘gospel’ can refer to a few things.

    As you say, it can refer specifically to the salvation by grace.

    It can be ‘the gospel of Mark’ etc.

    It can also just be ‘the teachings of Jesus’.

    Pente churches liked to call themselves ‘full gospel’, implying that other gospel versions were missing something. They would have been using the gospel in a broader sense than just the salvation sense.

    Unless we are talking about salvation per se, I tend personally to include the teachings of Jesus on many topics in my understanding of what the gospel message is, as the ‘good news’ is redemption in so many different areas.

  14. The ‘gospel’ ‘s matt, mark, luke and john are ‘the gospel’. Each narrator proclaims the gospel message that we need to believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and that we must believe in Him. However, He speaks to Jews who are under the written Law. He taught and spoke prophecy concerning the Jews and alludes to the gospel message and alludes of the coming mystery church. He wasn’t speaking to us.

    His teachings were for correcting the Jews erroneous views of the Law as the Pharisees added to the Mosaic Law. Jesus was reforming the minds and culture of His time. His teachings weren’t gospel related but were restoring people to wise and smart living. He was teaching law. To an extent, there is wisdom behind it. But he purified it to the extent with his teachings that what he and the Law were doing were showing that it is impossible for us to live perfect lives. Jesus Christ is the Law on steroids. And since He wrote it, He was re-teaching it again. These sermons weren’t for us. If we applied everything He taught to our lives, we would be complete wrecks.

    We are meant to live in the obedience in the resurrection power of the Gospel Message. It’s through this he teaches us what we need to know and for everyday living.

    I’m feeling that I’m being so picky.
    But maybe, Heretic, the title should be “How well does the church like LIVING Jesus’ Gospel”. That makes more sense.

  15. RP:
    “It can be ‘the gospel of Mark’ etc.
    It can also just be ‘the teachings of Jesus’.

    Pente churches liked to call themselves ‘full gospel’, implying that other gospel versions were missing something. They would have been using the gospel in a broader sense than just the salvation sense.

    Unless we are talking about salvation per se, I tend personally to include the teachings of Jesus on many topics in my understanding of what the gospel message is, as the ‘good news’ is redemption in so many different areas.”

    I actually really disagree with that. What Jesus says insightful. But we should observe what he has to say the same way the same way the Old Testament Law was given. Most of his parables and teachings didn’t teach the ‘gospel’ that we know it. They never taught ‘salvation’.

    What made the ‘good new’ truly ‘good news’, was not what Jesus taught and said, but rather what the Promised Messiah was walking with mankind, showing his faith, love and grace towards creations. Recording who Jesus is, what Jesus did and the proofs to prove who he was was key to really appreciating the Good News and what He was doing among us.

  16. S&P: “These sermons weren’t for us.”

    Do you have scripture to back this up S&P? If not it is a somewhat slippery slope.

    I agree that Jesus was speaking to a different people with a different background but it is also clear to me that he is not just speaking to the people who were listening at the time. The “eat me” passage is a classic example. I can’t see that that is law but it is quite clearly the Gospel.

    S&P: “Most of his parables and teachings didn’t teach the ‘gospel’ that we know it. They never taught ’salvation’.”

    OK, I think I am starting to understand. To you “gospel” means “salvation”. So Jesus’ non-salvation statements are to you non-Gospel statements.

    Personally I have to accept Jesus’ definition of good news. If he says good news is about the kingdom of God (literally the reign of God) then I suggest we should submit to that. I understand that “salvation” is what matters to us so we view the gospel through the lens of salvation. But I suggest (as RP says) that we are better off attempting to obtain Jesus view of the Gospel. Writing it off as not for us is not a good start.

    The gospel is much much more that just being “saved”.

  17. Ah! I see where you are coming from too.
    The commonality between Jew and Gentile is that we are under promises of God.
    The difference is the type of promise.
    To Jews it’s a contract. To Gentile/Jew=NewCreation, it’s an oath.

    Jesus was teaching under the contract. The Jews were promised a Kingdom and a King to reign over them. Christ taught them how to behave as citizens of this Kingdom, using the Law that had been perverted by religious leaders.

    Now as Gentile/Jew=NewCreation we are under His oath and not under any contract that we try to make with him. He doesn’t teach us through the Law, but through His spirit. As righteous beings, we hate it when we sin and do our best resist temptation. His Spirit in us teaches us what is wrong. Now we can read what Christ says and feel convicted by His spirit in us if we are naturally not living in a way that we know is right. This is not legalism but something I can only describe as naturalism.

    A legalist believes they must follow Christ, obey his teachings from the bible, make sure they forgive, do all the right things and then feel crap because they only see themselves doing good and no one else; or feel like they are doing very little while everyone else is doing more than them.

    This born again nature we have in Him will be His voice guiding us with sensitivity in how to live in a relationship with Him that doesn’t grieve His spirit. This is His nature in us that despises sin and corrects us gently not to sin again. In terms of a believer reading what Jesus said, Jesus can use anything to speak to them. The sermons that are for us as believers is the quality time we allow God to speak and minister to us. There’s less communication break down one on one.

    Heretic:
    “OK, I think I am starting to understand. To you “gospel” means “salvation”. So Jesus’ non-salvation statements are to you non-Gospel statements.”
    Well yeah. Jesus’ sermons were very similar to Buddha’s or Gandhi’s, except those that made people question who He was. Would you say these other non-jew teachers were bringing the gospel- good news to set the captive free?

    Heretic:
    “The gospel is much much more that just being “saved”.”
    Hmm… I can only speak from my experience. The more I endure the things that try to rob me of my salvation, (false doctrines, sin, works, legalism, subtleties, etc.), the tighter I hold onto my salvation. From this, the more I value and appreciate the simplicity of it and it’s richness. To me to learn the basic understandings and teachings of the gospel (teachings meaning understanding the power and significance of the atonement, death, resurrection, ascension, blood, spirit, covenant, etc), all we need to hold onto to know is how to live an adventurous life in His care.

    I found an interesting website where I will post snippets of the article up here on Signposts to show you what I believe in. I’ve e-mailed it to you before Heretic. I’ll post them up in due time.

    Heretic:
    “The “eat me” passage is a classic example. I can’t see that that is law but it is quite clearly the Gospel.”
    But that wasn’t a teaching to the masses but to his disciples- seeing which ones were true and which ones weren’t.

  18. Interesting stuff S&P. I don’t percieve things in the way you do so I am interested so unpack it a bit more. Maybe not all in one go. (As a side issue I am facinated by the way we as individuals interpret the same texts differently as if we view through different lenses. I would love to be able to codify the world-view that is our lens so that we could compare them. Often it takes years of knowing someone before you start to appreciate the differences).

    “The commonality between Jew and Gentile is that we are under promises of God.
    The difference is the type of promise.
    To Jews it’s a contract. To Gentile/Jew=NewCreation, it’s an oath.”

    I really can’t see the difference in the type of promise. Both have conditions. Is there support for this in scripture somewhere.

    ““The “eat me” passage is a classic example. I can’t see that that is law but it is quite clearly the Gospel.”
    But that wasn’t a teaching to the masses but to his disciples- seeing which ones were true and which ones weren’t.”
    He said this to the multitudes as well Jn6:52-54″

    And WRT this verse and “Christ taught them how to behave as citizens of this Kingdom, using the Law that had been perverted by religious leaders.” this example of Jesus teaching to Jews has nothing to do with their law. Jesus is completely overriding and replacing the law in these verses.

    In fact this was a common theme in the gospels in that he says “the ancients were told … but I tell you …”. Jesus was comming to fulfill the law himself, not to get the Jews to be better at it.

  19. I LOVE the original document above- can you please post it to me as a pdf, whoever it was who posted this up!

    Fond smiles,

    Z.

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