Resource Directory for the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)
“The New Apostolic Reformation is an extraordinary work of God that began at the close of the twentieth century and continues on. It is, to a significant extent, changing the shape of the Protestant world.”
— C. Peter Wagner in the foreword to the 2001 edition of Ted Haggard’s 1998 book,The Life Giving Church
Convening Apostle C. Peter Wagner
C. Peter Wagner is the convening or presiding Apostle over the NAR movement. Wagner, who will be eighty years old this year, was a signer of the Coalition on Revival’s 1986 Manifesto for the Christian Church, an original executive of the Lausanne Committee on World Evangelization (LCWE) as shown in his papers at the Billy Graham archives, head of the United Prayer Track of AD2000 and Beyond, and taught “church growth” at Fuller Theological Seminary for thirty years. He announced the New Apostolic Reformation as having begun in 2001. Link to a video of Wagner teaching about the New Apostolic Reformation. For an overview of the NAR see this summary by one of Wagner’s former students.
This is C. Peter and Doris Wagner’s personal para-church ministry and the legal parent entity of many of the other NAR organizations listed below including the ACEA, ACKW, EVAT, ICA, ISDM, and WLI.
ACPE The Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders
The ACPE is an inner circle of about two to three dozen apostles which is sometimes posted in its entirety on on Elijah List, the website of ACPE member Steve Schultz.
The Elijah List also post prophecy proclamations as seen at this Elijah List posting. The ACPE includes Mary Glazier who claims Sarah Palin as part of her spiritual warfare network, and Lou Engle, founder of The Call events including the November 1, 2008 San Diego stadium event in support of California’s Prop Eight at which Engle demonized homosexuality and called for Christian martyrs for the cause. Engle hosted Newt Gingrich and Mike Huckabee in “Rediscovering God in America” broadcast on GodTV in June and was a featured leader at the December 16 Prayer Cast event in D.C. against healthcare reform which included Jim DeMint, Sam Brownback, and Michelle Bachmann.
Spiritual Warfare Networks
Wagner’s organization includes networks in each state that were originally called “spiritual warfare networks”, then changed to “strategic prayer networks,” and now identified as the USGAPN and several other entities under the supervision of leading apostles. USGAPN – United States Global Apostolic Prayer Network.
This is led by Dutch Sheets, Wagner’s personal pastor and considered third in command after Wagner and the heir apparent to the movement, Chuck Pierce. Chuck Pierce and Dutch Sheets wrote Releasing the Prophetic Destiny of the Nation about their joint fifty-state tour of the nation. Activity and prophecies for different states are often included on the website of Chuck Pierce’s Texas-based Glory of Zion ministry. On January 7, 2009, Dutch Sheets spoke at Wasilla Assembly of God. The video can be accessed here. Scroll through the list of New Apostolic leaders that have spoken at Wasilla AOG this year to find Dutch Sheets.
National Governmental Prayer Alliance
This network is also under the authority of Dutch Sheets and led by Timmerle Barnes.
Unites States Prayer Reformation Network
Led by Cindy Jacobs head of Generals International with her husband Mike. Jacobs is the top ranking woman apostle in the movement beside Wagner’s wife, Doris. Generals International also has prayer networks in Central Asia and Turkey. Link here to an example of a “prayer warrior” update from the New England Apostolic Prayer Network, which is part of the U.S. Prayer Reformation Network of Cindy Jacobs. This update was sent January 7, 2010 and concerned the special U.S. Senate election in Massachusetts.
Cindy Jacobs can be seen in Bruce Wilson’s video documenting the New Apostolics role in Uganda’s anti-gay bill.
More Information on Spiritual Warfare Networks
Following is a sample of Apostolic Prayer Networks which fall under the supervision of the above apostolic leaders.GAPN – Georgia Global Apostolic Network
ORPN – Ohio Reformation Prayer Network
TXAPN – Texas Apostolic Prayer Network
MIPGAPN – Michigan Global Apostolic Network
IN APN – Indiana Global Apostolic Network
Louisiana Global Apostolic Prayer Network
Illinois Apostolic Prayer Network
Heartland Apostolic Network
FLRPN – Florida Refomation Prayer Network
Arkansas Apostolic Prayer Network
Pray Colorado
Power Grid Apostolic Network – Kansas
New England Apostolic Prayer Network
Missouri Prayer Global Mission
Pray New York
OAPN Oklahoma Apostolic Prayer NetworkThe “spiritual warfare” networks were used extensively in the 2008 presidential campaign to broadcast prophecy concerning Sarah Palin. This is arguably the meaning of the Palin’s references to thanking her “prayer warriors” in interviews with James Dobson and again with Christian Broadcast Network.
In 2006 Florida’s Katherine Harris was taped in a controversial conference call praying that God would “bring the hearts and minds of our Jewish brothers and sisters into alignment” in a taped telephone conference with Ken Malone. Reporters identified him as head of Lighthouse World Outreach but failed to recognize that Malone was then the Florida coordinator for Wagner’s U.S. Strategic Prayer Network, which illustrates how the movement has escaped notice.
Market Apostles
Also called workplace apostles, these leaders are considered one of the most important sectors of the movement. While they emphasize evangelism in the workplace, the primary task of this division is taking “Christian dominion” over “the mountain” of business and finance. (The 7-Mountain mandate is covered below.)
Os Hillman, based in Atlanta, is the head of the International Coalition of Workplace Ministries and Market Leaders. Os Hillman and marketplace leader Apostle Julius Oyet can be seen in Bruce Wilson’s video documenting the New Apostolics role in Uganda’s anti-gay bill. Apostles are encouraged to merge ministry with business. Apostle Pat Francis of Ontario heads Kingdom Covenant Ministries which includes a communications corporation, Elomax Oil and Gas and Elomax Enterprises. She also serves as a United Nations (NGO) “Transformational Activist” according to her bio. Two other apostles from the UK and Australia run Markets Unlocked, a “kingdom company” and market matchmaking system. The Market Apostles work closely with the International Christian Chamber of Commerce (ICCC) founded in 1985 and still led by founder Gunnar Olson of Sweden, member of the ICA Apostolic Council from 2004 – 2007.
Wagner teaches that once the work of market apostles has progressed, there will be a “great wealth transfer” from the ungodly to the godly which will facilitate the rapid expansion of the “kingdom.” In this decree posted on the ministry site of Apostle James Goll, Wagner relates the formation of a 48 apostle council to be in charge of overseeing the great wealth transfer. The composition of this and other “kingdom wealth” groups* have not been made public but many related to these initiatives can be seen at Market Leaders, Church in the Workplace Conferences, and the Kingdom Economic Summit. (View Kingdom Economic Summit videos.)
Leading teachers in this area include Ed Silvoso from Argentina/California, Bruce Cook, Johnny Enlow and Pat Francis of Toronto.Paid prayer intercessors for businesses is another growing field.
Other “kingdom wealth” groups mentioned in NAR media are the Apostolic Council for Kindom Wealth (ACKW), Zion Apostolic Council, and Hamilton Group.
ISDM International Society of Deliverance Ministries
This international network of deliverance ministries is headed by Bill and Janet Sudduth and developed from the ADRM roundtable. These ministries are for the purpose of expelling and repelling demons which are claimed to cause both physical and emotional problems. Apostle Chris Hayworth heads an international network of deliverance ministries called Cleansing Streams Ministries which originated at Jack Hayford’s Church on the Way. Hayford maintains apostolic authority over that network.
EVAT The Eagle Vision Apostolic Team
This is a more secretive inner circle group whose membership is not advertised, although sometimes apostles will list their participation in this group in their ministry resumes. For instance Apostle Naomi Dowdy is the Resident Apostle of Singapore and lists her EVAT membership in her ministry resume. Dowdy spoke at Wasilla Assembly of God on November 4, 2009.
ACEA The Apostolic Council for Educational Accountability
The ACEA is Wagner’s “creative alternative to accreditation” and is under the apostolic covering (or authority) of Leo Lawson. The ACEA has no interest in secular accreditation which they see as a hindrance to their mission.
An ICA “honorary apostle for life,” Ret. Col. Jim Ammerman, serves as a commissioner for the Transworld Accrediting Commission International (TACI) and as VP of the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools. Ammerman is also head of the Full Gospel Chaplaincy which is one of the largest endorsing agencies for U.S. Military chaplains, and at the center of recent controversy due to his anti-government conspiracy theories and aggressive proselytizing within the military.
WLI Wagner Leadership Institute
WLI includes over a dozen regional U.S. divisions and Wagner Leadership Institute Canada, UK, Asia, Australia, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Japan, Korea, Kenya, Mexico, and Rwanda. The institutes issue diplomas including doctoral and feature courses on prophecy, faith healing, demon deliverance, and a division on finance and foreign exchange. Wagner has recently announced that the WLI headquarters in Colorado Springs will be moving into the Jericho Center of Apostle Dick Eastman’s Colorado branch of Every Home for Christ.
International Society of Healing Rooms
ICA Apostle Cal Pierce heads the International Society of Healing Rooms, an international network of faith-healing centers.
Link to the article Generational Curses, Deliverance Centers, and the “Kingdom” Health Care System.Julius Oyet, who was recognized by the Parliament when the anti-gay legislation in Uganda was first introduced, heads the Uganda Healing Rooms under the apostolic covering of Cal Pierce. Oyet can be seen in Bruce Wilson’s Transforming Uganda documenting the New Apostolics role in Uganda’s anti-gay bill and in the report by the New Apostolic Reformation Research Team.
7-M or Seven Mountains Mandate
The mandate for bringing the Kingdom of God to earth includes the “7-M” or Reclaiming the Seven Mountains of Culture initiative. This campaign involves the taking of “dominion over seven key spheres of society which are government, arts and entertainment, media, education, family, religion, and business.
The mountain of business is considered key to taking dominion over the others and much of the promotion of the 7-M is done by Market Apostles. Os Hillman in Atlanta oversees this important segment of the movement and Lance Wallnau is one of its major motivational speakers, but Market Apostles are now also active in Africa, Asia, and South America, and Europe. Julius Oyet, one of the major figures in the Ugandan anti-gay bill is a regular speaker at 7-M and “Church in the Workplace Conferences.” Lance Wallnau stresses stealth evangelism as seen in a June 7, 2009 speech at Wasilla Assembly of God in which he explains that infiltration is necessary before evangelization. (Scroll down through the list of internationally known New Apostolic speakers who have recently visited the Wasilla Assembly of God until you get to Lance Wallnau.) He gives the example of Guatemala prison ministries where a toned down version of “Kingdom” worldview is taught for a full year before any attempt to convert the prisoners.
Thomas Muthee, star of the first “Transformations” movie (see next section on the “Transformations,”) talked about the 7-M campaign at Wasilla Assembly of God just prior to his anointing of Sarah Palin in 2005. Wagner’s 2008 book Dominion!, How Kingdom Action Can Change the World emphasizes the use of workplace apostles as the current crucial component to taking control over the other six mountains of culture.
Transformations Movie Series and Transformation Organizations
The Transformations series of movies produced by George Otis, Jr. and Sentinel Group promote the spiritual warfare and unorthodox evangelizing methodologies of NAR. The series features prototypes of ethnic communities, cities, and nations claimed to be part of a wave of transformations in advance of the coming of the utopian “Kingdom” on earth. See trailers for the Transformations series of movies at Sentinel Media’s YouTube page. “Transformations” has become the buzzword for the evangelization of entire communities and nations, and the series has spawned transformation entities all over the world including Transformation Associates and Ministries (Otis), Transform World (Luis Bush), International Transformation Network (Ed Silvoso and Francis Oda), and Transformations Africa. The latter, headed by Graham Power, is the parent entity of the “Global Day of Prayer.” George Otis, Ed Silvoso, Francis Oda, and Graham Power are featured in Bruce Wilson’s video documenting the New Apostolics role in Uganda’s anti-gay bill. (Note that Francis Oda and Graham power are not identified in the video. They are standing to the right of Allen Kagina, head of the Uganda Revenue Service in the last scene in the video.)
Following are Transformation organizations related to the NAR under the leadership of George Otis, Luis Bush, and Ed Silvoso and modeled after the “Transformations” series:
Transform Indiana
Transformation Cincinnati & Northern Kentucky
Prayer Transformation Ministries – Minnesota
Vision Orlando
Somebody Cares (Somebody Cares is a large charitable/emergency response/transformations entity, now with branches in Indonesia and Botswana.)
Transformation Hawaii (ITN Hawaii) and additional link
ITN Minnesota
ITN Hong Kong
ITN Northern California
ITN South Africa – Graham Power is head of ITN South Africa and also founder of the Global Day of Prayer.
Transform Brazil
Transform World Houston
Transform World India
Transforming Melbourne
Transform USA
Transformation Virginia
Transformation Traverse City Prayer Transformation Ministries Minnesota Scroll down to promo video on Transformation San Francisco event.
Transform North Carolina
Transformations networks work closely with political leaders. For instance, International Transformation Network’s conferences have included the participation of Ugandan First Lady Janet Museveni. President Yoweri Museveni and numerous other political and military leaders are featured in the Transformations movies. Lt. Gov. James “Duke” Aiona of Hawaii has written and spoken for ITN and Hawaii Transformations.
Numerous “ecumenical” prayer and fasting movements, pastors` networks and city transformations groups fall under the domain of the apostles and draw in the unsuspecting from Protestant denominations and Roman Catholicism. The Transformations movies have played a significant role in the charismatic “renewal” movements which have divided the Mainline Protestant churches in the U.S., and this influence can clearly be seen in the Anglican renewal movements extensive ties to George Otis, Jr. and Alistair Petrie, the Canadian apostle whose role is bringing Episcopalians/Anglicans into charismatic or “Spirit-filled” belief. The Transformations “franchises” have also played a role in attracting Roman Catholics in South American and other global Catholic populations to charismatic belief and partnership with the NAR and its agendas. This is despite their open demonization of Roman Catholicism which is claimed to be controlled by the “Queen of Heaven,” a powerful demonic principality. See Killing Mother Teresa with their Prayers.
The Transformations feature prototypes of locations around the world in which “Christian dominion” over government and societal structures supposedly produce mini-utopias where AIDS is miraculously cured, crime and corruption overcome, environmental degradation instantaneously reversed and vegetables grow to monstrous sizes. They believe these claimed results can be repeated worldwide as the apostles and prophets of the movement bring the “kingdom of God” to earth. Locations included in the movie series include the nations Uganda, Fiji, and cities of Cali, Colombia; Hemet, California, Sao Paulo, Brazil; Kiambu, Kenya; Almolonga, Guatemala; and more. The movies demonstrate the use of spiritual mapping, spiritual warfare, and other unorthodox evangelization tools. The emphasis is not on saving individual souls but expelling demons and taking control of territory or entire populations. The most recent Transformations movie came out in October 2009 and features the Sao Paulo police force, which Otis claims has spiritually mapped the city. Link to a detailed report on the “Transformations” movies and resulting Transformations entities.
Christian Zionist Events and Organizations
Christian Zionism is another area increasingly dominated by by the apostles and prophets, particularly at the international level. The largest single Christian Zionists event in the world, the Day of Prayer for the Peace of Jerusalem (DPPJ), was co-founded by Jack Hayford (mentioned previously under the International Society of Deliverance Ministries) and Robert Stearns, and is endorsed by the Knesset’s Christian Allies Caucus. Stearns heads Eagles Wing’s Ministry which manages the DPPJ, and he is also editor of Kairos, a popular apostolic and prophetic magazine which features top NAR apostles, although Stearns himself is not listed in the NAR’s ICA directory. Stearns’ ministry events often include Chuck Pierce, the heir apparent to C. Peter Wagner’s Global Harvest Ministries. Hayford, Stearns, and ICA apostles including Messianic Dan Juster, provide coordination of support for the Messianic movement (Jews who convert but retain Jewish identity) in Israel and worldwide. Hayford is founder of The King’s Seminary which now has a charismatic Messianic division. Stearns is also a director of John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel, and although Hagee still teaches a dispensational theology, many of the other leaders of CUFI are major figures in the New Apostolic Reformation including Stephen Strang of Stang Communications and publisher of Charisma, who is an ICA apostle.
Also see these recent articles on the New Apostolic Reformation:
Rick Warren Dissertation Advisor Leads Network Promoting Uganda Anti-Gay Bill
Movement Behind Uganda’s “Kill the Gays” Bill Organizing in Newark
Video Exposes Anti-Gay Western Theocratic Effort “Transforming” Uganda
Generational Curses, Deliverance Centers and the Kingdom Health Care System
GOP Senator SAM Brownback’s Condo-mate Encourages Domestic Terrorism
GOP’s New Prayer Guru Says Gays Possessed By Demons
Sections to be added to the Resource Directory include lists of New Apostolic ministry websites, lists of charitable and faith-based entities under the umbrella of NAR, books by and about the New Apostolics, and other resources.”
Signposts 02 
So now you are aligning yourself with a left-wing, pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-gay marriage activist group, which is singularly against the US religious right. This is what they say they are:
‘We are pro-religious equality and pro-separation of church and state. We are prochoice, and we support gay and lesbian civil rights — including marriage equality. ‘
Didn’t you see that throughout the article? It was plain as day, between attacks on anything which resembled fundamentalist Christian belief, that they were incensed by anything which doesn’t support gay rights.
It took me a few minutes to establish their background. It is the singular most important thing to do when lifting a research paper from any organisation. What are their beliefs? What is their background? What is their agenda? What are their core values?
I don’t think they are actually Christians, or if they are they are almost certainly liberals.
FaithLift it is rather illuminating that you havent criticised anything in the text, rather you went and looked up the alignment of the authors. This is something that you do frequently, try and categorise the author into some group, and disregard what they say entirely based on that perceived alignment.
Is the author Christian? No? disregard
Is the author Catholic? Yes? disregard
Is the author a Liberal Christian? Yes? disregard
Does the author support gay rights? Yes? disregard
Is the author Evangelical? Yes? Might be ok
Is the author Calvinist? Yes? disregard
Is the author cessationist? Yes? disregard
Is the author Pentecostal? Yes? Might be ok
Does the author criticise CCC? Yes? disregard
This kind of thinking leads to the alliances that Wagner was talking about which are a feature of the NAR. People align themselves behind a strong leader and just disregard everything that is said by people outside that alliance. Criticism of the leader or the alliance is taken to be an apriori reason not to listen to that criticism.
In other words this is the road to cultism, and I ask you to prayerfully consider whether you are going down that road and the others that may be behind you on that journey.
Well, no. I speed read the text first and picked up an anarchy towards fundamental Christian beliefs, anyone who was anti-gay rights, and a general air of dismissal of the facts, rather than support of the facts, or even a detached curiosity. This was obviously a politically motivated critique.
Then I researched their background. i wan to know where the writer is coming form if they are putting together an opinion piece. It helps me assess their motives and agenda.
Another person who was pro-NAR would have presented the same facts in a completely different light.
I’m neither pro- or anti-NAR. There are aspects of what they say that I would agree with simply because I have made similar observations, and read the Bible texts form a similar perspective, but that doesn’t mean they have shaped my opinion. I believe there is a reformation taking place, and God is involved.
Your assessment isn’t accurate, either. If I disregarded people or ministries as you claim I would have no right to assess them or criticise their intentions.
Incidentally, like you, I don’t have time to accurately go through such long pieces. Getting a background check helps me know whether I should bother to spend that time on a research piece or not.
This group wants to keep Christian fundamentalism out of US politics whilst spreading their own anti-christ, pro-choice pro-gay agenda. I’m not really interested.
What, you’d rather I didn’t point this out to you once I found out?
There is little opinion given in this piece it is more a survey of the movements and people involved in the NAR. Like any religious movement, and particularly this one, it has a lot of diverse people and influences involved in it – and there are various strong and weak alliances.
The background of the people researching it has little relevance, this is quite a good overview of the breadth of the movement. And as they point out, this ideology could be seen as the largest Christian bloc in America – some 400 million Christians. It has largely gone under the radar as it is still a relatively loose collection of organisations which do not present themselves as a monolithic whole. But behind the scenes there is a lot of networking and co-operation and ideas that are strikingly similar.
The group says they want to “reclaim faith” so I would assume they are Christian, probably left-wing, and probably for separation of church and state. I don’t think that means their views should be dismissed any more than it means mine should be dismissed.
You don’t have to dismiss them, but you need to be aware of where they are coming from.
They are also anti-zionist. Just be aware of their agenda, that’s all!
I think the Body of Christ is far larger and more influential than many, especially in the media, think, or would like it to be, and it is just becoming apparent that there are millions of us, and we vote, and we have opinions, and we are active.
They thought Christianity was dying out! No! The furniture is moving around somewhat, but the gospel remains as strong as ever! There will be more Christians on earth in the next ten years than have been since Jesus was raised! And we will come closer to the original pattern for the Church than for hundreds of years! Glory to God!
I checked them about a bit and got the impression they were Christian liberals. I am not Christian liberal. Their views frustrate me. (BTW. I do believe grace is given by God to gay-believers and loves them dearly. I believe God saved them, but I would encourage gay celibacy. They may want to actually in the end be in a hetero-sexual relationship and desire to have a healthy family.)
But that does not mean I disregard what they say. I test what they say. I dismissed the gay agenda in this article and was impressed by the information they gathered on the NAR.
In future posts I will say something like ‘I don’t agree with everything said and their motives said, but the information overall is interesting’. Will this make you happy Facelift? 😉
Well I don’t know, s&p. Will it make you happy? It’s always a good idea to give a brief qualification of what you know and where you stand with these things. It also helps with analysis and discussion.
This is the thing …
the NAR is dominionist.
The Roman Catholic church was also dominionist.
It sought to ensure dominion by suppressing dissent.
The NAR suppresses dissent. It cannot survive open dialogue or critical thinking.
The huge strength of the Reformation was that it brought the Bible to the people.
Now, the NAR wants to take the Bible away from people and replace it with Wagner’s decrees.
The very things that make us reject catholicism are coming back with the NAR. But they are being slipped in under the Radar.
The Western church (as a whole) is sleepwalking … and has been for at least 20 years. We may find that in another ten years, the healthiest churches (out of a bunch of sick churches) might be Hillsong and C3 … only because they are able to stand on their own due to their geographic spread.
Shalom
Bull’s direction seems to be right – NAR would like to put the Bible in the background, with Apostles decrees in the foreground. Combined with submission doctrine like that of John Bevere, the Apostles then have more direct authority than the Bible itself in a believer’s life, because this submission teaching says that as long as you obey, God will look after you, even if your leader is wrong. So effectively the bible can be replaced where it suits, and used as a prop when it suits. Interpretation of the bible is dependent upon apostolic revelation without regard to context, history etc. So yes, the Bible is present, but read through a distorted lens.
One of the things I bear in mind with these discussions is that toward the end the church totally breaks down, and largely becomes the tool of the apostate – I use that term advisedly.
Anything that usurps the authority of Scripture and exalts the authority of individuals goes down that path and just hastens the day.
That’s conspiracy nonsense. Where has NAR suppressed the Word? I think you’re reading more into something or other than is there.
This conversation is getting loopy!
Any Bible believing preacher/teacher/pastor is going to see through that straight away.
Now I’ve been accused on this blog of being part of the Elijah List, a NAR and all sorts, so I have concerns you are being drawn away into a weird conspiracy cult.
RP,
‘NAR would be putting the Bible into the background’.
‘Would be’? Sounds as if you’re not sure, and you’re merely surmising something based on flimsy evidence.
Bull,
‘The NAR suppresses dissent. It cannot survive open dialogue or critical thinking.’
Give me some evidence of suppressed dissent!
‘Now, the NAR wants to take the Bible away from people and replace it with Wagner’s decrees.’
What? Says who? Evidence please.
Sorry, FaithLift previously! I’ve been moving around somewhat!
mn,
There is talk of a falling away of some from the faith, but nothing about the church breaking down. Jesus isn’t coming for a breaking down church, but glorious church, spotless and blameless, cleansed by the washing of the water of the Word, presented to himself.
Too much is made of the falling away as if the Church will diminish almost to nothing, but the Word is clear that the Church will reflect the glory of Christ.
Sprung again FaceLift, you really arent having a good day.
Is it a sin to comment on blogs where you’ve been asked to leave? Using made-up identities where you have apologised for doing that before and promised you wouldnt do that again. It’s not mentioned in the Bible, but does that mean its alright? Is it rebellion?
Yes but the point is the institutionalised church – whatever that is – and probably including most of the denominations and including Pente types and their offspring – NAR, OP etc etc I doubt very much will be immune to it.
My own view is that they will be in it up to their eyeballs.
The true church will be saved by our Lord – but I doubt very much it will the one we think it will and many who might have been thought by ‘us’ will be ‘out’, and many thought to be excluded will be ‘in’.
Historical and biblical precedent indicates this is the way of it.
In NT times the normal religious enemies of the day – the Saducees, Pharisees, zealots – and the Romans united to kill the Christ.
I don’t see anything different about me in my time.
I doubt that it is a sin commenting on groupsects, wazza2. I’ve always said to Lance I don’t believe in banning people, and anyone that set on abusing the Church is fair game for activism. I think it’s a miracle my ip constantly reopens!!! Divine logic?
••••••••••••••••••••
mn,
The traditional churches will diminish. Their apostasies will not so much be exposed and rejected, but fade away and make way for the true Biblical foundations of the Church. Those that have the form of religion but lack the power will gradually vanish, as people become disillusioned and search for truth, or fall away because of lack of teaching in these once powerful churches, and be replaced by those which exhibit the power and Spirit of God as well as the Word.
What we are seeing is the restructuring of the original wineskins. Not new wineskins in regard to something starting now, or as Wagner believes, in 2001, but the new wineskins of the beginning of the Church Age, shortly after the ascension of Christ.
The problem with some of the present day identification processes is incorrect terminology, where Prophets are seeing the changes, but saying they are a new move of God, whereas they are a restoration of God’s first principles for the Church. The new thing has been here since the resurrection of Christ. He is the New Thing.
They are talking about a ‘new thing’ and ‘new wine’, when the New Thing and New Wine were the instigation of the New Covenant, the New Birth, the New Man, the New Life, or the New Creation, alongside the Word and Works of Christ, as he instigated them on the Day of Pentecost at the birthing of the Church Age.
This has never ended. The same outpouring which began then has been a constant, but the ministries on earth have been, for the most part, apostate, and false, alongside their doctrine, which became traditional dogma, so the outpouring was not coveted, not protected, not preached, and not released to the people. In fact it was suppressed. It was almost crushed under the apostasy, but not totally removed. God always has a remnant. He has seed from the Seed. God always as an orchid which will grow out of the ashes, life from death.
Now God’s true outpouring will begin to be properly released for a time, as the Church momentarily awakens and realises that God hasn’t changed his mind about how the wineskins are structured, or how the wine expands when it is correctly contained within the flexible wineskins of his design, not the legal confines of human constriction, and he hasn’t changed his will concerning the operations, functions, and empowerment of the Church Universal. His recognised leadership structures will be restored, and the true glory of the Church universal will be seen.
In the midst of all this there will be greater persecution, because it is out of persecution that God’s power is truly released and his glory is revealed.
Those who are not faithful in their commitment will fall away under the fierceness of the persecution, and will be led into deception and seduced by demons. False prophets, as they always do in times of great outpouring, will arise, and witchcraft will be seen, even attempting to enter the ministries which are being most effective.
It will be a time of great confusion for the unsaved world, because it will not be a simple matter for the unsaved, or for the media, or the critic, to identify what is of God or what is of the devil, unless you are fully pursuing God with all your heart. It will be a time when all believers will need to be sealed and filled with the Spirit to truly know their identity and to avoid apostasy. A new paganism will begin to thrive, and governments will be increasingly centralised and globalised.
Great fear will come on many communities. Some Christians will be driven underground, but the more they are hunted the more their impact will increase. Signs and wonders will be performed at the hands of the Apostles and Prophets of the age, and entire communities will be saved. Meanwhile entire communities will also rage against the Church, and Israel will be cursed by most of the government leaders of the earth, some out of demonic spite, others out of expedience and for the sake of worldly power wisdom. Delusion for the unbelievers will be rampant, and evidenced by huge increases in reliance of pharmaceutical aids to stabilise entire clans. In this atmosphere of confusion antichrist charismatic leaderships will begin to take their place.
But the Church will see its greatest days, just before Christ comes to catch her up. It will be a time of great suffering and great victory. It will be glorious!
Oops! Didn’t mean to prophesy!
FL: “The same outpouring which began then has been a constant, but the ministries on earth have been, for the most part, apostate, and false, alongside their doctrine, which became traditional dogma, so the outpouring was not coveted, not protected, not preached, and not released to the people. In fact it was suppressed. It was almost crushed under the apostasy, but not totally removed. God always has a remnant. He has seed from the Seed. God always as an orchid which will grow out of the ashes, life from death.
Now God’s true outpouring will begin to be properly released for a time, as the Church momentarily awakens and realises that God hasn’t changed his mind….”
Unintentionally that explains a lot, although some things not what you think.
Well, the call to awake to righteousness has not ended.
The age of the great apostasy is diminishing, and light is arisen upon us, to shine in gross darkness. I believe we have a way to go yet, but we will see the brightness of his glory upon the Church before the end of the ages.
What you call a falling away is actually a restoration. We will see it much more clearly, and some of the scales will have to be removed, as well as some of the excess baggage, but God will come for a glorious church, not a dead church, and he is the One who is perfecting her.
But the spirit of antichrist is already here, so we will need to be alert.
@ FL, could you clarify “the age of the great apostacy is diminishing” – do you say this as being evidential of Christ’s imminent return (which could be any time).
And could you clarify “what you call a falling away is actually a restoration”?
By the way, the church has always been “glorious” in one sense, men make it dead.
Silly me – putting imminent and “which could be at any time” in the same sentence”. 😦
“That’s conspiracy nonsense. Where has NAR suppressed the Word? I think you’re reading more into something or other than is there.”
Have you not been following the articles on Signposts02 or other blogs Facelift?
“Give me some evidence of suppressed dissent!”
Facelift. It is quite clear you’ve got that pig on again! You were on this blog when the false-prophets falsely prophesied over Bentley. You were there when all the Christian bloggers were crying foul over the claims of the amazing healings, the angel encouraging Bentley to have a supernatural focus, the Bentley affair.
It was the bloggers that cried foul. And they were labeled heresy hunters by these men and thos associated with the NAR. My personal experiences with ministries who endorse the following teachers and their teachings of the NAR have been shocking.
As soon as people disagree with them, like I did in a non-confrontive way, I’m treated as a heretic or heresy hunter because these men know what they are talking about and what they received from visions and revelations.
If anyone says there visions are wrong or are not biblical, I’m the one that is now going against God! That’s scary. We’ve blogged on these issues in the past. I am amazed you have believed what you want to believe. I usually don’t buy into a lot of what is said online until I get to witness it personally or get to know people personally who are effected by these types of ministers.
I do my best to experience what is going on rather than take everything off the web in a single gulp. Read the Final Quest by Rick Joyner. Though he is not NAR, he is a good example of how the NAR Apostles, Teachers and Prophets exalt their revelations and visions over scripture. I’ve posted an excerpt of his book in the past. I’ll go find the link for you.
Please read it.
Here it is:
https://signposts02.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/getting-jiggy-ziggy-for-jesus/#comment-8412
See how Joyner elevates his revelation to be even greater than scripture so that people now may receive his visions as scripture? I can’t even talk to some of my close friends about this, because if I doubt his visions, then they think I am obviously saying that this vision is not of God but of Satan.
You weigh what he sees in this book, you will see he is either confused, powerfully deceived or lying his face off. (BTW. He also talks to the dead in this book too. Something the bible says we should not do. We walk in the Spirit of Life and are not to receive council from dead spirits.)
S&P – I have found the same thing with respect to how people I know react to any possibility that Joyner’s book can be questioned.
“RP,
‘NAR would be putting the Bible into the background’.
‘Would be’? Sounds as if you’re not sure, and you’re merely surmising something based on flimsy evidence.”
I am basing my comment on what the article in the post said. I am not jumping to firm conclusions because I have not attended a NAR church, and am still learning about the movement – if such a hodge podge can be a cohesive movement.
Some of my personal experiences do back this stuff up though. I am used to the anti-academic, all ‘revelation’ or ‘rhema’ approach that was present at Phil Pringle’s church (thankfully not at the next C3 church I went to). I have also seen people put Joyner’s revelations and others (Pat King for example) above the bible itself, with the Bible used as a supporting document in a vague kind of a way. Most people who do this pay far more attention to what the prophet/apostle is saying ‘for now’ than what scripture says for all time, and don’t seem to realise there is an issue with that. They are often not familiar enough with scriptures to know when there is an issue, or don’t bother looking it up and checking. It is exciting, because those who are into this are on the forefront of something. The latest move of God.
I am interested in FL’s answer to Teddy’s questions also. MN, I think you are quite right.
I would agree that the NAR put the decrees of the Apostles in place of Biblical doctrine.
Wagner’s book “Churchquake” does this even when it defines the word “apostle”. Instead of going to the Bible for the definition, Wagner makes his own one up, but then says some apostles that he knows do not quite fit that definition so more research is needed.
Instead of going to the Bible and then applying the doctrine to the individuals, he seems to start with the individuals and then moulds the doctrine around them.
The great apostasy, was, of course, the middle and dark ages of papal world domination. We are slowly emerging from this apostasy, and, to a degree, still finding our feet. I think we have a way to go before we can say we have completely shaken off the effects of this dark time.
What we are seeing is an imprecise recovery. We’re feeling our way out of the dark tunnel, rather than being led out by the Holy Spirit, although we hear his voice on the outside, in the light, and we hear and see in part. ‘Churchquake’ attempted to work it out, but didn’t quite get there.
That’s not to say there will not be other fallings-away. I believe a drift is characteristic of almost every age, combined with a recovery. But this is probably the strongest and most sustained recovery since Pentecost. The ebb and flow of revival and recalcitrance.
And the recovery is not headed up by any particular ministry or minister. Wagner has been made an Apostle of a group which is attempting to put it all together, but, as we have already seen, too many key players are missing from this set up for it to be said to be the next big thing. I would not see Wagner as an Apostle.
By the way, in the piece you quoted, Joyner actually says nothing replaces scripture in importance. And he is not the main spokesperson for NAR, as you point out. I have told you repeatedly that Bentley is a distraction, yet you continue to come back to him.
Using definitions to describe Biblical terms is commonplace, and jot at all evidence of ignoring scripture or superseding it.
I asked where NAR dismisses anyone, and all I get is a rant from s&p, who is not dismissed at all. Here he is freely giving his opinion. Whether anyone listens or responds is not his to decide. Being rejected by people who read Joyner’s book is noting at all. I read it, found it interesting but not specific to my walk, and dismissed it. I have had no repercussions whatsoever.
Some strange theology going on there FL. This from personal reflection or do you have some scripture to back that up, 2 Thess 2:3-4 perhaps?
And what would be your personal endtime scenario?
You can’t just pluck two verses out of scripture when they are clearly part of a longer passage, teddy.
Read it all.
I was discussing possibilities. I was talking history and consequence, based on Biblical probabilities.
What would you call the papal era? Was it not a great apostasy?
There will be other fallings away, as I have said, as long as the spirit of antichrist is in the earth.
So tell me, who is it or what is it that is allowing the spirit of antichrist and the mystery of iniquity to go about its business in a limited way? Who is withholding at this time?
What will happen when the wicked one is revealed, and where will the Church be?
Good night Fl – time to get off your arrogant pedestal, you just reached the boring stage.
Regardless of how we get to the end, the end involves a new heaven and new earth, and the passing of this one.
Why does the old one pass if in the beginning God said everything is good, even very good?
Well, I’m very sorry, teddy. Perhaps I misunderstood you. So much for opening up. Not worth it, really. Let Wagner speak for himself. If he’s the antichrst, he’ll be exposed. I’m done!
Is Wagner the Anti-Christ????
I merely thought he was a false prophet.
“Revival Revival” when there is no revival.
In “The Purpose Driven Life”, Rick Warren begins the book by telling me it’s not about me … then the entire rest of the book is all about … ME.
It’s a useful literary device to suggest the exact opposite of of your objective so that you convince people of your double-speak.
In fact, it is Orwellian New-speak.
Joyner is a master of it.
We come back to Bentley because he is the poster child of the NAR, having been ordained in the public spectacle imaginable with a completely extra-biblical ceremony to boot. Bentley has totally signed up to the Joel’s Army heresy and the New Breed/Manifest Sons of God heresy which has not been condemned as heresy by anyone involved in NAR/Morningstar or any of the pseudo-charismatic bunch.
It’s all good, apparently.
The problem here is that some of us want to see people like Bentley as misguided. But how can a true believer promote such horrible heresies? How can a true believer promote a different Jesus and a different Gospel?
Jesus will rightly say “I never knew you.”
Shalom
Facelift:
“And he is not the main spokesperson for NAR, as you point out.”
Can you please tell me where I said this? I did say here leading to the link:
“THOUGH HE IS NOT NAR, he (Joyner) is a good example of how the NAR Apostles, Teachers and Prophets exalt their revelations and visions over scripture.” (emphasis mine)
Let’s lay a foundation by saying that anyone on the Elijah List is suspect.
http://www.elijahlist.com/
I used to go to the Elijah List for comedy’s sake. They’ve updated! But they still made me laugh:
Pentecostal Fire is Falling!
Today, we are about to experience a wave of anointing as no human has ever witnessed. We, as fire carriers, are about to be the signs and wonders with miracles that only the Spirit of God could perform through His faith-filled Believers.
We are about to enter a “Second Coming” form of Pentecost, in such a way that the wind, the fire and the signs will lead us into a move of the end-gathering harvest of a magnitude which will cause more earthquakes and volcanoes as never seen before. Yes, this time, the natural has only a pale copy of the spiritual Pentecostal explosion—as patriarchs and prophets of old hoped to see, yet passed on to their rewards with such a prophetic dream.
My friends, I prophesy that you are about to see this Holy Ghost explosion which all of history has prophesied, and is soon to be viewed across TV networks in our nation and worldwide!
No devil in Hell wants this Holy Ghost outpouring like God has poised for such a time as this. If you have ever heard, “Get ready,” well, this is that time. Get ready, get ready, get ready!
Jesus said it best as they were about to see the outpouring for the first time:
“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”—Acts 1:5 KJV
The Lord reminded me that “not many days from now” is exactly what we are about to experience, where the second-coming wave of the Holy Spirit’s outpouring is a sign before the return of Jesus to this earth as He promised.
http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word/8710
Hey Teddy. If you want a list of suspects, I’ve been covering this in my own time. I’ll e-mail you what I call ‘The List Of The False’.
Ok, Specks.
That “Pentecostal Fire is Falling” word is how old? And how many times do we have to hear what Gawd (forgive me, it has to be said a certain way) is just about to do!!!! Let’s just recycle a recycled “prophesy”.
Better pull out th e Bible and recycle the Word …
Jeremiah 14:14″Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.”
Years ago I challenged Steve Schulz about his website (I was still at C3) – it was glaringly obvious that it’s just a marketing tool for all their junk. They throw in all the “prophecies” for free.
He wasn’t very appreciative.
LOL – my son called God ‘Gawd’ for so long after we stopped going to church. I let him do it because he seemed heartbroken if I corrected him about it. He seems to have naturally dropped the habit now.
I went through a Jee-zaws phase. 🙂
I highlighted the best bit in caps……
“We are very sorry to announce that due to a lack of funds, the large 5-day gathering called Wilderness Outcry will no longer take place this upcoming summer. WE BELIEVE THIS VISION IS OF THE LORD, and certainly no one can deny the desperate need of our nation for prayer, but the reality is that provision for the high cost of doing an event like this – most of which must be paid in advance – has simply not materialized.”
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/dominionist-wilderness-outcry-canceled/
I’m still in a Yeshua phase. 😉
@ Bull – and the beat goes on…….
http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/editorial/2808/demint_uses_christian_reconstructionist_mailing_list_to_raise_money_for_angle/
“See how Joyner elevates his revelation to be even greater than scripture …”
I have never seen Joyner elevate his visions or prophesies above scripture. I have noticed that he is usually backs himself with scripture whenever possible.