Burning Australia and YWAM With the IHOP Cult

Burning Ones

First some information about Burn24/7 and IHOP.

IHOP is a cult.

It’s recognised world-wide as a cult movement – the cry coming from families who have lost their kids to this deceptive movement run by Mike Bickle.

The IHOP has planned to come to Australia in the past with not much success. It was in IHOP LI (International House of Prayer Long Island), that I personally heard of Sean Feucht. He founded the Furnaces with IHOP but is greater known for starting the Burn24/7:

Sean Feucht is a husband, father, musician, speaker, writer, revivalist, and founder of the grassroots global worship, prayer, and missions organization “Burn 24/7.” www,seanfeucht.com www.burn24-7.com www.fireandfragrancebook.com

(From: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sean-Feucht/26629742486#!/pages/Sean-Feucht/26629742486?sk=info)

To try and slip past radar’s they have tried various names such as Furnace or Furnace24/7. Their latest attempt is the FOA, Fire on The Altar. This was founded by Rick Pino and Sean Feucht:

“… Founded in 2009 by Rick Pino and Sean Feucht, FOA gathers believers from across denominational boundaries and rallies them together in worship and prayer to see Jesus glorified through both personal and cultural revival.”

(From: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rb_cho5D2UEJ:www.burn24-7.com/+Sean+Freucht&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&source=www.google.com.au)

Here you can see the FOA have the same mandate as the IHOP cult:

(From: http://www.fireonthealtar.org/Fire-on-the-Altar/Fire_on_the_Altar___Home.html)

Simply go to http://burn24-7.com, and you will see that it is supported by IHOP, Sean Feuchts other ‘ministries’ and events:

On March 10, 2010, in Blog, Events, by Teresa

Currently, certain Houses of Prayer, Churches and Campus Ministries across the nation are experiencing a tangible encounter with the Holy Spirit that is increasing in intensity and is deeply impacting the lives of those attending. IHOP-KC is one of them. “onething” is their outreach arm to the cities and regions of the earth that they […]

Currently, certain Houses of Prayer, Churches and Campus Ministries across the nation are experiencing a tangible encounter with the Holy Spirit that is increasing in intensity and is deeply impacting the lives of those attending. IHOP-KC is one of them. “onething” is their outreach arm to the cities and regions of the earth that they prayerfully consider sowing into and they are coming to sow into New York in April and into New Jersey in July.

We have prayed for years now for the Lord to bring strong equipping conferences to the youth and young adults on Long Island. This year, we have had a series of events orchestrated independently and solely through prayer that has been focusing it’s attention on the NYC Metro Region and on the Campuses of America. Behind the scenes there have been a number of meetings over the last year that make me confident that the Lord is setting up the region. Something is up! This event is important to consider as it surely will have a lasting impact upon the churches and campuses of those represented. It is a necessary prelude to further strengthen and drench the region in prayer.

Please pass this information on to anyone and everyone that you believe may have an interest. The registration is free but necessary before entry.
Also, keep in mind that May 21-22 we will be hosting the follow up to this event called “Fuel School” at Central Suffolk Vineyard Christian Fellowship in Central Islip. We believe those two days will be a crucial time of knitting and equipping for Long Island Churches, Campuses, Para-Church Ministries and all sorts of other beautiful expressions of God’s Kingdom here. Please pass that information on as well.
onething New York
Start Time: Friday, April 16, 2010 at 7:00pm
End Time: Saturday, April 17, 2010 at 10:00pm
Location: Promise Ministries 130-30 31st Ave Flushing, NY 11354
Registration opens at 5PM on Friday; the conference begins at 7PM.

onething regionals are the International House of Prayer’s conferences for young adults, held in cities throughout the United States as well as in other countries.

At this important time in history, God is raising up a movement of young adults and awakening their hearts to intimately encounter Him, that they might give themselves to love Jesus with all their hearts, proclaim His Word to their generation, and bring the kingdom to every sphere of society. onething regionals exist to communicate these truths to high school and college students everywhere. It is our dream to see thousands upon thousands make the decision to embrace the glory of living a life of one thing, as expressed by King David in Psalm 27:4.

One thing I have desired of the Lord, that will I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to inquire in His temple (Ps. 27:4, NKJV). Registration is FREE. http://www.ihop.org/PaymentGroup/Registration.aspx?payment_group_id=1000001413 to go to the registration link.http://www.ihop.org/onething
http://www.facebook.com/onething
onething@ihop.org
Would you like to help get the word out that onething is coming? We’ll send you a free promo pack with posters, postcards, and a promo dvd! Email us at onething@ihop.org with your name and address. You can also pass this event around to your facebook friends.

193 thoughts on “Burning Australia and YWAM With the IHOP Cult

  1. Not sure what you mean Bull. This issue has been on my heart for a while. I’m aware that over 400 people read signposts daily – so I thought it was appropriate to do an article on this so they may spread the concerning news.

    I will return to edit the above information to make the article cleaner, less clumsy and more professional.

  2. Please try and download Phil Mason’s sound files for me – epecially the ‘Mystic Glory’ sermon. These were written not long after Crowder visited his church. It’s ironic he talks about straining at leaven then swallows the gnostical mystic teachings of Crowder.

    From: http://www.philmason.org/

    Ministry Focus

    Phil’s ministry has evolved over the past three decades. He has been teaching the Word of God since 1981 and as every teacher of the Bible would attest; the nature and focus of their ministry changes and matures over the years. In recent years Phil’s focus has shifted to the unfolding revelation of the glory of God in the person of Christ. In the 21st Century God is transitioning a faithful remnant of the church into a life-changing encounter with the glory realm of heaven. The glory of God has always been the destination of the Bride of Christ.

    God intends to have a glorious bride at the end of the age that releases the fullness of the knowledge of the glory of God all over the entire earth. “For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.” (Habakkuk 2:14)

    Phil’s ministry is now almost exclusively focused upon equipping the church to transition into living in the glory realms of heaven in order to attain what the Apostle Paul called “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.” (Ephesians 4:13) To this end Phil finds his greatest joy and fulfilment in revealing the Kingdom Ministry of Jesus and equipping the saints in releasing the glory of God through this extraordinary supernatural ministry.

    Christ’s glory is revealed through the ministry of sign, word and deed. These three currencies of heaven are expressed through the revelation, the power and the love of Christ. It is Phil’s deep conviction that for the fullness of the glory of Christ to be revealed the followers of Jesus must to be equipped to minister in these three dimensions of truth, power and love.

    We encourage you to download some of the recent sets of CD’s that Phil has presented in late 2008 and early 2009. Our current personal recommendation is the ‘Water into Wine’ series recorded in January 2009. This is a 4 part series that explores the theme of the wine of heaven as a biblical metaphor of the glorious love of Christ. May you drink deeply of the intoxicating wine of the glory of Christ! We also highly recommend another 4 part series called ‘Taking the Promised Land’ which has been Phil’s most popular series to date.

    The Leaven of the Kingdom of Heaven
    33 minutes

    Jesus likened the Kingdom of Heaven to leaven or yeast. The unique thing about leaven is its capacity to permeate an entire lump of dough until its presence exercises a strong but hidden influence upon the entire lump. What does a life look like when it has been thoroughly leavened by the influence of the Kingdom of Heaven? In this 33 minute message Phil challenges his listeners to allow the leaven of heaven to thoroughly permeate our lives until we are literally overtaken by the reality of heaven. Phil contrasts a life overtaken by the leaven of religion with a life overtaken by the reality of heaven and exposes just how spiritually detrimental religion is to the prophetic purposes of God. This message was preached in New Earth Tribe in late April, 2009.

    Mystic Glory
    22 minutes

    We are invited in the Scriptures to enter the ‘house of wine.’ The beloved bride says in Song of Songs 2:4 “He brought me to the house of wine and His banner over me was love.” The revelation of the hidden wine cellar is consistently obscured in the Bible by translations that lose the strength of the original Hebrew language. Almost every translation renders this passage as the ‘banqueting hall’ or something similar. Yet the Hebrew language explicitly states that we are invited into the ‘house of wine’ or the ‘wine cellar.’ This verse is one of the favourite verses of the ancient mystics of the church who all discovered the wine room of heaven and were rendered drunk on the mystical love of Christ. Jesus strongly desires to bring us into this wine tasting cellar in order to saturate our lives with His intoxicating Spirit. In this 22 minute excerpt from a recent message preached at New Earth Tribe, Phil extends the invitation of the King to be so filled with the Holy Spirit that our shadow will heal the sick.

  3. I sincerely question a church that teaches its students to lay hands on photographs of people they dont know to see if they can hear what the spirit says about them in the same way a new age witch or medium does…this isnt even for ministry purposes….a church here in australia…..i also question ministries that have been spoken of drawing on the anointing from the graves of famous preachers…i believe its called necromancy…and when you speak of this you are told youre not with it!!!!!! then praise God im not….

  4. i question the soundness of a persons doctrine who follows the n.a.r and todd bentley a known child molestor many yrs back in canada…oh yeh confession from his own mouth..

  5. It is never a good thing when Christians get at each others throats over issues like this. That is why we have the Bible as our final authority (mind some churches don’t think it is anymore) IHOP is founded on false prophecies, and bases its teachings on extra biblical nonsence which is appealing to those young people who would like to be somebody. There is nothing in the scriptures to back what they teach unless one uses the most inacurate method of interpretation that the leader of IHOP uses to come up with the answers. Deception is a horrible thing and that is why so much of the New testament is spent on warning us about it. Put away the IHOP, IPOD, EPAD, and what else and focus on the Bible.
    Blessings Wazza.

  6. Anyone who downs IHOP has obviously not been there nor given it serious consideration or fair judgement.
    ” IHOP is founded on false prophecies, and bases its teachings on extra biblical nonsence which is appealing to those young people who would like to be somebody. There is nothing in the scriptures to back what they teach unless one uses the most inacurate method of interpretation that the leader of IHOP uses to come up with the answers.”
    Prove this. IHOP teaches context. In its bible school they have baptist textbooks. Their teachers have masters degrees and PHD’s from popular well known Baptist and Methodist colleges.

    “There is nothing in the scriptures to back what they teach”. Prove this. This is false. This is a judgement. Everything is scriptural and everyone is challenged to look it up for themselves. This is so false I don’t even know where to begin.

    “the most inacurate method of interpretation”…. Since when is context inaccurate? You’d be surprised to find their method of interpretation matches yours pretty darn close.

    Each student is required to pray/study/read 24 hours a week. This is on top of a full class schedule. This counts for 25% of every class. Miss 2 days of prayer/reading a semester and you fail. Everything. Reading the bible (the whole Bible) is a must for every student out there. Not only do they read the Bible, but they pray while reading it for more understanding. Have you done this lately? They are praying to the same God you are.

    Trust me, Ive grown up in the church (not IHOP, I live 1100 miles away from it). I’d put a 20 year old IHOP-er up against any of you any day. You’d be surprised how much Word they know.

    Also, this whole website is based on PRIDE. It will be dealt with and those who continue to spread its filth to the body of Christ. It’s called an ELITE spirit. I do not see fruit (aka the fruits of the spirit). When I read this site I get a bad taste in my mouth. Its the same as racism.

    This is the perception this site puts out. Repent now while you still have a chance.

    I have a friend who is a Baptist seminary student who lives in the same city as IHOP. He thought the same things until he realized they were very similar to him. Lots of false rumors have circulated against them. They are lifting up Jesus. They pray for countries all over the world day and night for salvation. They have probably prayed for you and your ministry indirectly which you have benefited from.

    Be careful who you insult. They are actively blessing you and yours (actually living out the SOTM).

    Get off your judgmental soapbox and get on your knees. Perhaps, just perhaps God will forgive your pride and ignorance.

    Jon H.

    P.S. seriously… repent. Change the way you think. It would be really helpful for you on that day if you did. Pride is a stench and no excuse can be given when you look into His fiery eyes on that day. If I (in my sinful nature) smell it from a mile away, then what about Jesus? Something to think about. Seriously. Study it out. Be a good Berean.

  7. Hey Jon, not too late to repent? Too late for what? I checked up IHOP and their creed which seems pretty much standard theological tautology. It’s all just Catholicism sans Mary and the Saints, with a twist of Pentecostal lemon to help it all go down. I was going to say without Popery but Pentecostal Popery is still there. The thing which immediately identified it to me as a kingdom now death cult is their belief in the Trinity and in eternal an Hell of suffering and the Rapture. So, they are just another kind of sheep rustlers. “All who come before Me are liars and thieves”. And of course they have the giving buttons all set up so you can use B.E.A.S.T cards to give them some cash.
    (British, European, American, Sionist Tyranny)

    1 Peter 4 from the VA Aramaic:

    12. My beloved, do not be surprised by the trials, like something strange overwhelming you, because these things are your Communion in the inheritance.
    13. Except be glad that you are becoming partakers in the Passion of Christ, so as you may also partake in the revelation of His glory and be glad and celebrate.
    14. And if you are maligned or slaughtered for the sake of the name of Christ, you are indeed blessed, as the glorifying Spirit of God shall rest upon you.
    15. Suffering as a murderer, a thief or an evil-doer is not the same thing.
    16. Then you should not be ashamed to suffer passion for being a Christian, except glorify God for the sake of this name.
    17. Because that is the season when judgment starts from the house of God. If, then, it begins from us, what will be the end of those that did not adhere to the preaching of God’s [Kingdom]?

    18. And if the righteous are harvested for eternal life,
    … where will the ignorant and the sinners find themselves?

    19. Because of that those who sorrow according to the will of God, shall reveal their souls to Him through beautiful works, like the faithful creation that they are.

    Judgment begins FROM the House of God, which is the antithesis of the house of the dead, or Sheol – the Door to God’s household is the Man, Jesus Christ, and the doorway to Sheol is a woman (Jezebel). Now Jesus told us that God does not judge us, and that all judgment was committed to Him so that HE does not judge us, and that those who believe have passed from death to life. From dead thinking to the mind of the Life Giving Spirit.

    In essence it is like this, we need to get a revelation of what judgment is really about, lest our own judgment come upon us and we find ourselves in Gehenna getting flambeed – tried by fire – and if we cannot even understand it properly, what will be the end of those who are wholly ignorant of God’s redeeming grace?

    FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING LIGHT! It kind of makes me giggle when Xian’s accuse each other of being cults when in reality it is all Babylon baby – they are all cults – from Catholicism to the Emerging Church of Hebrew Roots and all that jazz, it is all the religion of Babylon with a Christ-like covering, a mask, a front. Yes, Jesus still meets the willing heart, but the wolves are never far away in the shadows…just waiting their chance to make a meal or a proselyte of the lost sheep. This is Satan’s sifting. Paul said he did not know why God did not grant some repentance to the acknowledging of the Truth, so that they may recall themselves and so escape the snare of Satan by who they are captured to do his will.

    I would not get too upset over who is preaching the True Gospel of Jesus, because none of you are, which is why you argue over it. If you really knew the Truth you would be free, instead of being captured by Satan. And if you want to know who ha Shatan really is, then a good place to start is when Jesus rebuked the Peter for being a satan (adversary), something Paul had to do later as well, when he said, “GET OUT OF MY FACE, you are a stumbling block TO Me for you savor not of the things of GOD but of the THINGS OF MAN. The number of the beast is the number of a MAN! The Pharisees prevent those who would enter in by being a stumbling block, and by tying up heavy burdens. God gets His stuff done in spite of the Church, not because of it.

    There are two trees – the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which is the outer man, the flesh, and the Tree of Life, or Life of the Tree, the INNER MAN which is formed in righteousness. In order to enter in to Life, you must be cut free from the flesh and the Serpent nature – aka Kundalini – aka Leviathan. Levi = to join, to twist, to lend, and athan means salvation. It is the religious Spirit, the counterfeit of the Holy Spirit.

    From the VA Aramaic Trans (great for comparing with the Kill Jesus Version):

    16. For I am not embarrassed by Him, as He is revealed through the Gospel, because He is the Power of God, [proffering] Life to whoever believes in Him, whether from the Jews first or from the Aramaic speaking people first.
    17. For the righteousness of God is revealed through Him, from faith to faith, as is written in Scriptures, “By faith you shall Live.”

    6. Righteousness through faith, however, says thus, that you shall not say in your heart, “Who goes up to heaven and is with Christ?
    7. “And who goes to Sheol’s abyss and is raised by Christ from the (house of the) Dead?”
    8. Except what does it say? Hold close this answer to your lips and in your heart, this is the Manifestation (Word) of Faith that we preach (witness),
    9. And if you confess with your mouth our Lord Jesus And believe in your heart that God raised him from the Dead, you shall Live.
    10. For the heart that believes in him, is sanctified, and the lips that confess in him, Live.
    11. For Scriptures says,

    “Whoever believes in him shall not perish.”

    12. And through this, He does not differentiate, neither the Jews, nor the Aramaic speaking people. For One is He, Lord of all, who is bountiful to all who call on Him.
    13. For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall Live.
    14. How will they thus call upon whom they do not believe? Or how will they believe in whom they did not listen to? Or how will they hear [about him] without someone preaching [to them.]
    15. Or how can they preach if they are not sent as apostles? As it is written [in Scriptures,]

    “How graceful the feet of those who proffer peace and blessings!”

    16. Except not all were receptive to the preaching of God’s Revelation For Isaiah said,

    “My Lord, who believes in our echoing [Your Voice?]”
    17. Therefore, faith is in whoever lends an ear, and to lend an ear is from the Manifestation of God.
    18. Except I say, why did they not listen?
    And, behold, in all the earth
    His echo has been heard through their voices.
    And to the outskirts of the universe their words.

    19. Except, I say, why did not Israel know it? First Moses said thus,

    “I will give you a people that are not together,
    And I will anger you by a nation that is not faithful.”

    20. Isaiah, however, proclaimed and said,

    “I appeared among those that wanted me not,
    …and was found by those who did not ask about me.”

    21. About Israel he said,

    “I extended my hand all day long
    …to a people that were destructive and unappeased.”

  8. ” It kind of makes me giggle when Xian’s accuse each other of being cults when in reality it is all Babylon baby – they are all cults – from Catholicism to the Emerging Church of Hebrew Roots and all that jazz, it is all the religion of Babylon …
    I would not get too upset over who is preaching the True Gospel of Jesus, because none of you are, which is why you argue over it. ”

    So everyone is a cult – except Ian Williams? Nobody is preaching the gospel except Ian Williams?

  9. The thing which immediately identified it to me as a kingdom now death cult is their belief in the Trinity and in eternal an Hell of suffering and the Rapture.

    The rapture is nonsense. Hell is not what the Evangelicals and conservatives have us believe.

    But the Trinity as a sign of a death cult?

    What the hell?

    Are you a JW?

    Is Jesus God, Ian?

  10. No. not at all, i struggle with getting free from the influence of religion – I am only beginning to comprehend how great a salvation it is and how it is the God is working it all to His conclusion. Like Paul, I press on toward the Mark, the Ox that is me compelling me forward – the goads of love behind. He is the Aleph and the Tav, the Ox and the Mark. Some of you might just be going OMG about now and others will be going “Tilt”. But think about it, we are HIS workmanship, created as WORKS OF GRACE before ordained that we should walk thereby. Largely, we have all missed it, which is why we are not the witness of Revelation 11, but rather altogether too much in and of the world, and yet like the loopy Laodiceans we think we have all and are full (of ourselves), yet we are naked, barren blind and bound.

    We tend to forget that we are clay in the Potters hands – we are His workmanship, we can only really achieve what he enables as the enabler, as the Life Giving Spirit. In the mid 80’s, when I was a pain in the ass Word of Faith Pentecostal, I had an encounter with a messenger – this has happened twice to me where what would be called an angel, but which i am guided to refer to as a messenger, has been sent to correct me. This one looked me straight in the eye and said, “You don’t understand the New Birth.” I asked him to tell me me more – such was his manner that he completely bare-faced me, I had no defense – I could not hide – it was like he looked past any exterior straight to my heart, and he spoke into my heart, as only a messenger from God can, and those who have been graced with such a blessing can attest to that I am sure. You know that you know. I knew what he said was true, how? By the Power of the Eternal Witness, I knew it was so. (The same way I knew it was God when He came in the Shekinnah in my living room and healed and redeemed me instantaneously.)

    The messenger reassured me that it was not for him to answer me, but me for me to search it out, he said that one day it would be revealed to me and of late, that is becoming more and more real, and it is incredibly challenging yet comforting that God is not about to let any of His slip through his fingers. You see, Creation declares the Glory of the Lord, and His Eternal attributes may be known by His Creation. And in Creation, nothing is ever wasted – the Law of the conservation of matter and energy affirms this attribute of God by reflection in His Creation.

    Jesus Christ, the Savior of ALL MEN EVERYWHERE, especially those that believe. I challenge any of you who care to try, please explain how the Norse Hel, a cold place ruled by the Jezebelic Frigga where a man could never get warm, with the exquisite tortures of Christian Hell myth? And believe me, while the Devil and Satan and Lucifer and the Prince Spirits over Cities and the descending orders of demons down to the flies of Egypt do very much exist, and I have seen many.

    But I did not choose it, it chose me.

    I am compelled to preach, I cannot help myself as Paul said – it is what I am. It is everything else which is a contradiction to that – such is the nature of the preacher – you are compelled to preach. You are not the Preacher, the Preacher is you – can I get an Amen from somebody, can I get a witness?

    Mate – these things are real – there are a lot of them in Oz to, the Prince over Brisbane is a real nasty sucker. You have some heavy weight demons over their – they always follow the power. The demons over here are more subtle, more ‘civilized’ – they got to church and to the lodge – they are like the crypto Jewish Christians such as Booth and Wesley who infested Christendom and gave rise to Revivalism. Consider how it is that 80% of “decisions for Jesus” at Billy Graham Crusades had pretty much backslid by the first year and 90% by year two. 10% stick and got religion and works. I know that sounds harsh, but it is about the size of it. The Body has for the most part abdicated its responsibilities to the Church and to the Nicolaitins of the Clergy.

    There is a reformation coming – a huge split in the Church and in the world, between the ecumenical world religion of the Goddess cloaked as Columbia & Christianity, and a New and Living Way of the Spirit. Not a revival, but a VIVAL! This is what I was shown in 1983, and with all the other visions and dreams, it is unfolding before me like a scroll. What is coming is HUGE – it is APOCALYPTIC – it may not even happen until more like 2015 but it is coming – total financial collapse – depression of a scale you cannot imagine, and Christchurch will be particularly hard hit, and if you want to know why, just look at the map please do, we are the furthest city from Jerusalem and first to see the light, and read the name – why did God move the founders to call it thus?

    This is the spiritual epicentre of the world after Jerusalem, it is the anti-type of Jerusalem, if you can receive it. This is where the End time harvest starts. But first, devastation will come to the churches and God will take many home in one day, mercifully quickly and painlessly, but I am convinced it will happen, as are many who have related dreams to me in which they are crushed in an EQ of epic proportions, and like God is telling me to trust Him but be prepared to basically lose everything – you guys don’t know Jack about commitment. We are living it – our homes are already pretty much worthless, our businesses trashed, and every indication is that there is much worse to come – and I mean MUCH WORSE. Gee I;m glad I did those rides at Movie World that God told me to go on. He said I needed the experience. Have you been in a major earthquake? Well I have been in a bunch of them and I can tell you, there is nothing that makes you pucker your sphincter quite like it. You get so little warning – suddenly, it is there. But rest assured, when Wellington/Wairau/Whanganui goes, Oz will get some big ass Tsunamis – those beachfront properties are not going to be looking so flash. We will get a 40ft wave in Canterbury from Wellington, but in some ways it will be worth it…God assured me it had to be so.

    Your salvation may be a fine theological theory, but mine has to be a living reality. There is a fault line about 100mtrs from our house – welcome to my world baby – you trust God? Try trusting Him when He says, “Stay and serve Me through this”. So, yes, I am learning some stuff about salvation that they do not teach in Seminary. I think it is called the school of hard knocks – Paul and the other Apostle’s Alma Mater.

    But I do sow in hope – I am not waiting for Armageddon and I am not of the “Ah’m-a-geddon ouda here” mind neither – I am a fighter and that is why I do not quit – Jesus betrothed me, not me He. I am clay, He is the potter. Or as Elma Fudd says, “You am, what you iz!” So be it.

    I have a very simple litmus test for the church of satan – they all preach hell. Let’s just agree that if this is somewhat as it really is, then God will reveal it to you, but if I am wrong and in whatever way, please correct me Lord. So be it. It is so easy to agree, that we may grow there by, there is not point trying to defend a position, that is called a redoubt and it is always re doubt. Like I said baby, I am learning about salvation at the pit face, not at the office.

  11. Bones, God is One. He is expressed as three, just like you are being made in His image. Burt He is also SEVEN. SO, where and how does the SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD fit with a Pantheon of three distinct persons? We are made in His image – for the things that may be known of God are self-evident by His creation.

    So, from the top, Hear oh Israel (of the Spirit), God, is ONE who is THREE who is SEVEN. You stopped at three when you were meant to go on to the Revelation of Seven Spirits, which is kind of cute cos the two key ages in the formative years are 3 and 7.

    I do not believe in the Norse Hel, nor the Estruscan, Greco Roman underworld cult of trauma based mind control – manipulation by inducement of unreasoning fear, which causes schizophrenia (my sister is a highly qualified behavioral psychologist – we actually agree on this wise.

    Yes Jesus is very much God and when He appeared to me with a Palestinian martyr by His side whose shoulder the arm of Jesus was about, realizing I knew nothing, I also realized at that point neither did the greater majority of the Church, as I was to soon find out when I publicized the event, thinking people would be as blown away as I was – naive – of course – but innocently so I blundered in acrimony I cannot begin to describe.

    I came to find out how full of hell and hatred and actually devoid of real heaven most so called Xian hearts are. John 1:11 says that Jesus came to His own, and His own knew Him not. When I first really came to know this lover, this Prince of Peace, this wonderful Savior it hit me so hard – how could such a one be resisted by anyone? His love is so pure and utterly overwhelming – when he pours out His presence the demons tremble, the earth shakes, the people are brought to their knees, even to writhe in the dust. I have seen it all – it is coming – a world wide wave of the Spirit like you could never have imagined – the great cities coming to Christ, the enemies of faith silently screaming in mute rage as God gathers up His harvest, and many will die and many be martyred. The Elites want to kill off the greater part of the world’s population so they can inherit their earth. Oprah is selling toxic chewing gum for a better world – it is a crazy planet guys.

    This is the witness and the judgment, that Light came into the world, but that men rejected the light and instead chose the darkness of their own pretensions, thinking themselves wise, they became fools, but God chooses the foolish to confound the wise. Did you get that? We are all fools, but God chooses some fools to preach to the others fools, hence He ordains the foolishness of preaching while we are yet in and of the flesh. But you are not in the flesh if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. These are not riddles but paradoxes.

    The Trinity is Pantheonistic – God is SEVEN, who is THREE, who is ONE WHO IS ALL AND IN ALL AND TO WHOM ALL THINGS BOTH IN HEAVEN AND EARTH BELONG. Ye, He very much is Eashoa/Jesus the Messiah, the only begotten SON of the Father, the first born among many Brethren.

    The Seven Spirits or attributes o God are simple they have been steering you in the face for the most part. But people who get traumatized at age three are particularly hard to deal with when they go “angry three year old” on you. So it is with trying to get people to make the leap from One God who is Three Parsons, I mean Persons, to One God who is Three who is Seven.

    I will tell you the Seven Spirits of God if you promise not to scoff or to mock but to put it before Jesus to see if it be so – I would not like to stumble anyone and int eh last days men will be mockers. Treat this please with faith and love. It may help free you from the Roman Trinity myth. Protestantism is just Catholic Lite.

    They are – The Centrality of the Godhead is the Ancient of Days – He is uber cool – He just looks at you and you know all you need to know. The Word – or Milta, or Manifestation – the essence of who God is, if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father. The Holy Spirit the “She” of God in the Aramaic, as in male and female made He them, in His image
    And over them both is the Headship of the Father. The Eternal Word is His Right Hand and the Healing Holy Spirit the Left. .

    And then the spirits of faith, hope and love. These are the seven facets of the Jewel of Jeremiah and of Ezekiel the SEVEN RADIANCE’S OF GOD by which he knows and sees everything in the earth. You cannot truly even begin to comprehend God unless you get this Seven facet jewel thing, but for most it is a quantum leap from a Trinity to The Magnificent Seven Spirits of God, the Seven facets of His Being an His Seven Eyes.

  12. Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Don’t you know that you must be born from above?” This is like saying, “Don’t you know that you must be from Australia, or USA, or NZ, or wherever you were born? Don’t you know that you need to know where you came from? Our Spirit came down from heaven out of God – it was “born” there, created in Christ, ordained from before the foundations of the Universe, when God had, as it were, a LAMB SLAIN FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE! Talk about forward planning and visionary uber genius!
    Ecc 12:7 tells us that when a man dies, his body returns to the ground and his Spirit to God from whence it came. To many Jews, if you are not of natural Israel, then you are not a real man, for only the Jew has the Spirit from God – all others are just cattle to be exploited – if you do not know this then you do not know much. The Born Again myth was sold to the “Church” just like the Hel myth was.
    When God grants us repentance to the acknowledging of the Truth (Jesus is the Truth) then we recall ourselves and we return to God, submitting ourselves as servants, we are received as sons. The Prodigal returns.
    My own salvation experience was somewhat Sovereign – at age seven the local Anglican Minister came and spoke to us of a Jesus who forgave and saved, of One who did not condemn us and who loved us and He witnessed to me the Father and the Son and the Spirit, and faith, and hope an love, and I simply believed that it was so. I recognized the grace of God manifest in this man and believed. But without a consistent witness I wandered, and betimes God would haul me back in an the knowledge of Him grew, line upon line. But this line upon line thing is so that you may stumble and go backwards and be snared – read it through – its in Isaiah.
    How is it that when Jesus reveals Himself to people, they know straightway who He is? When you meet the Son of Man, you instantly know who it is you are dealing with – you should – he created you. But your parents as agencies of God made the man which comes out of the ground and which will return thence, but God made your Spirit, eternal and perfect, an ETERNAL SEED, waiting to be watered and to spring up to LIFE! The faith which comes by hearing witnesses with the SEED in us, the RNA of God (the message) activates the DNA of GOD – the SEED, which is ONE, which is CHRIST.
    The idea that you were not a man but a beast, that you have to receive God by being born again, is pure deception foisted on the Church by divisive men of evil intent who sow discord among brethren and bring confusion. Babylon is not so much about different languages, but different understanding, confusion, and chaos.
    IT is actually about being reconnected, being re-NEWED, about a NEW COMMAND, yet NOT NEW, BUT OLD, or AS AT THE BEGINNING. If you can but receive it, you were “saved” from before ever there was is, when God has, as it were, a Lamb slain from BEFORE the foundations of the Universe of Universes. Your eternal salvation was assured, but your temporal salvation was cut off – you had to slave by the sweat of your brow – works.
    You are not some mute beast grovelling in the dirt seeking God, you were created in Christ as a work of grace, but cut off by sin. To discern this requires that surgical sword of the Savior to separate between Spirit and Soul, bone and marrow, and the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    Jesus said that to look upon a woman to lust is as good as having committed the act. He was not bagging us for being boys, He was illustrating God’s Gold Standard – that intent equals action and determines outcomes. So it is that God does not INTEND that any should be lost, but that all should come to know Him.
    As He said to me one time, “Ian, don’t ever think that I Am a loser, it is the devil who is the loser.” Shalom, nothing lost! And this is the Victory, and this is EVEN OUR FAITH, that Jesus conquered Death and Gehenna and the Grave and sat from the Right of Majesty on High and waits until HIS enemies be consecrated as the rug under His feet. And He led captivity captive – He emptied Sheol.
    You need a BIGGER REVELATION OF A BIGGER GOD! Our God is a consuming LIGHT. Whether we have slaved through the heat of the day, or come in at the last, one denarius is the same reward for all. One day’s wage irrespective of your works, for even your works are by His grace.
    In short folks, we have been had, but don’t get mad, ‘because that is what Esau will do when he breaks the bands of Jacob, and the whole world will turn against Israel, which has branded itself as the Messiah nation, the light of the world, and so as it supplants the Savior of the World, it shall become as the scapegoat of he world. It has taken the place of Christ and is therefore anti-Christ – opposed to and in place of Christ.
    Many Xian’s have left their first love for the woman who rides the Serpent of Old, she who is known as Circe, pronounced Church. The Door Way to Life is the Man, Jesus Christ, and the doorway to Sheol is the woman, Jezebel. Come out from among her and be separated to God.
    When Babylon falls, will you rejoice or will you crawl? And fall she will.

    If you can receive it, CHCH NZ is as the sheepfold of Edom.

  13. If you can recieve it Ian, I think you have a very vivd imagination, bt it is not connected to anything anywhere near how I understand God to be…except for the lack of Hell – that is the one place we can agree – on everything else you’ve lost me

  14. I hear you, but you have the right starting point – de-powering the hell myth is critical. Being an artist a vivid imagination comes with the territory and my mum told me I used to freak her out as a small child with answering her thoughts as if it was second nature. I get people asking me how come you tell me things about myself when i am not even aware of it happening. It is the gift at work. In Noosa in bout 2001, I was experiencing multiple streams of revelation happening at once – it blew me out and and I gasped, what is this all about, why are you showing me this? I heard “You asked”. Ask therefore, that your joy may be made full. Then I heard, “I want you to start asking em the hard questions. For many years, much, if not most of what I learned at church was at variance to what I had come to know of God in a number sovereign interventions and actions in my life.

    One of the most confronting was in 1987 while preparing a message for Sunday night service I had been asked to preach. I sat down with my books and bibles and pens and paper and said, OK Lord, where to. I heard, “Paul did not have a New Testament”. “Huh?” “And Moses did not have a Bible – they had a relationship, out of which came the books”.

    You search the scriptures thinking that you will find Jesus therein, but they testify of him. The turning point for me was when Jesus showed me I knew nothing – maybe minus nothing. Until we put is all on the altar and ask Him please to consume all which is not of Him.

    As for those folk who think that they do not have to confess their sin to be released, the act of confession is the act of speaking it out and of releasing it to God and of engendering reconciliation between people by admission and resolution of guilt. It is an act of submission – Jesus owns your sin – if you retain it – then you are bound by it and you are in effect saying that God is incapable of dealing with the matter and are bound by fear and you are holding back what you are supposed to give to God – sort of an Ananias and Sapphira – having a form of godliness but preventing the Power. But note too that God did not build a prison or post a guard for Cain except to protect him form others. Hmmm….that God…will you ever work Him out?

    My doctrine and gospel may sound weird – instead of running it up against what you know, run it past what the Teacher of the heart knows. The Seven Spirits is the other major hurdle – once you drop the Trinitarian thing and see God as complete, entire, lacking nothing, and in whose image you were made, then it kind of clicks. It is arguably more about Babylon being driven out of you than you leaving Babylon.

    Where my understanding got utterly upended was when the words of Romans 1:16 went bold, reversed and leapt off the page and hit me between the eyes like a bullet and I got blasted by a revelation I had never heard before. Instead of “The Gospel is the power of God” it went “The POWER OF GOD is the gospel (I heard good news). I asked for confirmation and immediately, before the question was out, the answer came. “The kingdom of God is NOT IN WORD, but IN (DYNAMIC) POWER!” The the Lord spoke to me and said, “Which is better, to give a starving man a recipe or a cake?”

    This is why there is so little manifestation of Power in the church. The last time I preached the Power of God showed up in a manner I have never seen before – it was amazing – but the people did not want the message, they wanted more of the manifestations. My Gospel may sound weird, but then to most people the hell myth thing sounds weird until they get a revelation of it. Agree with me Greg, that in whatever way I be wrong, God will correct me and teach me by His Holy Spirit, but however my preaching be true, may he open your eyes to see it too.

  15. Actually Ian, it’s obvious that you’re extremely intelligent. I’d say in the genius bracket. And I love your originality and your love and knowledge of scripture and God.

    You write so much in one post that I don’t even know where to start to respond. It’s like Bones copy and pasting on issues from all over the world and history all before breakfast.

    You really don’t like Booth or Wesley? Or Billy Graham. My main concern about what you say is that it seems like everyone in the world is wrong or demonic – except you. I would say eg that even though you think you were wrong when you were word of faith, you weren’t as bad a Christian as you think. I’ll try and read over more of what you wrote – esp re hell.

    Just be careful. There’s a fine line between genius and insanity.

  16. Oh but I am oh so aware of my issues – painfully so – the goads of love are without let – The Ox must keep on toward the Mark” – you really have no there choice once yoked to Christ. I have a gift to write but am dyslexic – how paradoxical – it means I really have to write by inspiration – I could not read until 10yrs old and then began to read voraciously. I used to blitz the school in general knowledge and can talk on a wide variety of topics, but my focus has become fixated upon possessing the prize, being fulfilled in love, becoming perfected in it. There is no other option, the One Command is as explicit as it is concise, “Love, one to another, even as I first loved you.” I have kind of dared go where few have dared venture – to really have your faith tested and tried to a degree you would never have imagined. I am no genius, though maybe sometimes a bit of a smart arse, I have learned that I have the Mind of Christ, and that it is HIS good pleasure to give us the kingdom. God wants us to ask in faith, but I fear the time is short – there is not time for going to those who SELL oil (cringe) but seek ye the Lord while He may be found and be filled with the Spirit – these will be times such as probably none of you have imagined, but I was shown the future in 1983 in a full blown open whether in the body or not I don’t know kick ass vision. I have heard of three others who have had in essence the same vision, so there would be possibly many More as well. Legend has it that Smith Wigglesworth saw it on his first visit, but I guess it did not go over to well with the local Nicolaitans who ran him out of town. He had confronted them over the sin in this city.

    There is hidden darkness in this place, and in Wellington. There is a really dark spirit at work in this nation. The people under its spell are like something out of a bad horror movie where alien lizard people have taken over the community and subverted it to their nefarious needs. It is not in your face like the Sydney Mafia, it is the Gentrified Masonic Mafia. But something big is soon to go pop here – it will be very bad – very, very bad. One of the prophets, a young man with real promise in the Lord, so dedicated and in love with Jesus and who loved everyone – this guy was the goods. He came up against a Black Widow spirit (ask Jesus – it is a Jezebel spider spirit which kills men – it usually goes for the head. She is like a fly in the ointment and will eventually kill the whole work of God or subjugate it to Jezebel). Try that on for size sunshine. You Aussies like it straight. I am no genius, I just know one, and He is not ashamed to call me His brother and He tells me what I ask and I endeavor to do what he says – most of the time – but especially with love – as it covers for the multitude of sins.

    The great world changing event will be when en mass people cry out to God for salvation, for redemption, when the people lie broken like grain upon this threshing floor of the city and there is no more hope, no more money, Mammon has suffered a mortal wound, as unto death. The Beast has been bashed by God! Its head bruised by the Heel of Him who sits upon the throne. The Body will rise up in its true given authority and take back the land and harvest the souls of multiplied millions in the greatest spiritual event of all time – the harvest of all the Earth.

    Have you seen our new cardboard ecumenical Anglican Cathedral designed by a Buddhist and in the form of a pyramid or A frame? Gee, my father was the head mason on the original and had two years tutelage under a special church envoy who instructed him in the mysteries in stone – the hidden in plain sight occult ‘language’ used to scrawl Satan’s graffiti all over Churches. He died of cancer of the mouth – the Mason’s curse because they curse God. Want more? It never ends really, which is why it is wise to center up on Jesus as the Hope set before us, the MARK, the TAV of our High Calling. I am not kidding guys, we are really in something only a very few understand.

    Remember, its GOD’S ARMY, the ASSYRIANS, not the silly Ians but the ASSYRIANS – the INDO ARYAN PEOPLES, or GERMANIC PEOPLES, in short – GERMANS! The Germans with their bi-polar Communism and Fascism mingled with Catholic and Lutheran. And the Word of the Lord came to me, “NEVER FORGET THE GERMANS.” And the current King of Assyria by direct descent is Charles Windsor, aka Guelf, aka Saxe-Coberg, aka Battenburg etc. Never forget the Germans – there is a twist in this tale yet and it will be revealed why WW1 and 2 were mere dress rehearsals for WW3. Eisenhower, of German descent, ordered 1.5 million German prisoners into barbed wire enclosures and left 1 million of them to die, after hostilities ceased. Germans don’t kill Germans, huh? Hitler was a plant, a willing puppet, really an actor, like Obama or Bush – the real decisions are made way above their pay scale, by a relatively small group of mainly men who, by cross ownership and marriage, control the bulk of the the world’s commerce and cash.

    But here is the rub, GOD set it up that way, for Esau to go to the West, to a land of fatness, and to become the servant of Jacob – hence the you know who’s literally run America, just as Europe, Russia, much of Africa and the British Commonwealth are pretty much the personal fiefdom of Rothschild.

    Speaking of Red Shields, I have a delightful old Sallie Army poster – if you want it link to my email and I will send it to you, I have it saved. It about says it all if you know your stuff.

    There is so much to this history of the Jews and Royals and Bankers in England during the 16th – 19thC. It is a huge study in itself to unravel the orthodox narrative and propaganda to see the truth, and there are so many permutations it can only ever get more tortuous. Rather, let’s keep our eyes on the prize, to be perfected in Love, to become One New Man created in righteousness, for His Name’s sake.

    The most challenging thing Jesus ever told me was this. After a hugely trying time of dealing with my son’s ex, I had run out of answers and was just left feeling quite broken. I asked what is the answer Lord? He said, “Ian, when you have truly laid down your life, you will look up to everyone.” Oh boy…as the song says, still gotta long way to go…but I press on…the nearest I ever saw this in a human being was living saint Corrie ten Boom and maybe martyr Rachel Corrie. As for Billy and Wesley and Booth – they hawk the religion of the Jews, and not of Jesus, and have done much to advance Communism and Empire and Ecumenical World religion. The born again experience as taught by them is in line with the Jewish and dispensationist idea that the Jew is born saved while the Gentile has to GET saved through Jesus. What a load of of absolute tosh. Everyone was “saved” when God intended that they be saved – remember, to intend is to do – the transaction happened within the Father – He does the works – when he had a Lamb slain, as it were, from before time. He always intended that we be saved by grace and not by works or race or any such thing. But God also gives us leaders and such after our own hearts. For the true believer, this means to be led of and by the Eternal Spirit of Christ within us, we having been grafted in and others cut off. The law of Love graven in tables of he flesh – soft hearts filled with His law of Love – which fulfills the whole Law. Paul said, “Have the Mind of Christ”. I don’t know all the answers, but I do know someone who does, and He loves to share if you care to dare but you have to count all that has gone before as loss in order to gain Christ. The trouble most have is that they cling grimly to what has passed in the draught, that which Paul called dung. And of course the most daunting thing is when the Holy Spirit shows you in his full length mirror just where all the terrible things one has identified in the church are in me – and then asks you “Now do you see what is wrong with the Church?” Yeah, me. But He does then go about fixing it. How do you think i know all this stuff – its called the school of experience, ad a lot of travail and prayer and being led to others who have also seen what is going on, or need to.

  17. Bones, what is the religion that eats its Lord and drinks his blood in cultish display? His Blood is His Life – the Life is in the blood. His Body needs to be discerned rightly. Bones, just because the majority of those who believe accept Trinitarian doctrine does not make it right. Luther challenged Rome and look what happened.

    It was Rome that killed Jesus, along with the Sanhedrin, and they still try to kill Him every way they can.

    Answer me this Bones – If God has Seven Spirits or Eyes by which He sees all, and He is three persons, and yet is called one, how does that work Bones? The answer is really quite simple but hidden in plain sight, so that seeing you may not see and hearing you may not hear. This is how and why the Occult mimics God, it steals his principles and repackages them. It suited Rome and Greece to have a Pantheon of Three. Israel believes in One God, they recognise the Pantheon for what it is.

    So Bones, Seven Spirits? Do you think that they are may His spies? Or maybe His eyes? You see, when God told me in 2001 that he would teach me about His Seven Spirits, I found that no one knew about it. The whole story of how it came about is one of those crazy adventures in God. I was at work one night when The Lord said to phone a friend in Noosa. He aske why I called and I said, Jesus said to. He passed the phone to a guy he knew who he had just met up with on Hastings St. He asked what this was about so I said, “Dunno, Jesus told me to phone Willem and he hand the phone to you”. He asked me who i was and i said i was a friend of Willem’s, and jeweler in Christchurch.

    He just about popped a gasket. REALLY! You’re kidding? He then told me that he and a friend had been in prayer the night before and they had both heard that they needed to get a revelation of the seven facet jewel of Jeremiah and Ezekiel. He was very excited – I thought he sounded like he had been too close the the thinners. I said I would look and proceeded to go through my Diamond Bible to look for a seven facet jewel. There was nothing so i gave up, and the Lord rebuked me loudly and with some severity such that it made me jump and then I recalled a massive book on Jewellery someone had given to me for helping his out. I opened the book and it literally flopped open a the page where I beheld a seven facet jewel. If you want to know what it looks like, I can post a schematic, but when i asked a Jewish friend to cut it for me they got all freaked out and after consulting with the Rabbis became very interested how i knew this and where i got it – I told them God showed me a mystery and I wanted to make a model of it to help explain – they would not touch it and went into not going there mode.

    When you get a revelation of the Seven Facet Jewel, you see how God really is, not a committee of three in agreement, but One who can manifest any one of his three attributes with all the resources and totality of all in play at once. If you can receive it, your life is hid with God in Christ, and Christ is in God, and seated on high, far above all principality and all power and all might and every name that is named. Aa-meen.

  18. Actually Ian. There is very little of Revelation which relates to today. It is a book written within it’s historical time using symbols to represent current events.

    As or the seven spirits of God does that make you a nonarian, God the Father, the Son and the seven spirits of God.

    And of course seven abounds everywhere in revelation.

    The Seven Spirits of God and Heavenly Bureaucracy in the Book of Revelation

    A few weeks ago we began working our way through the Book of Revelation in my Sunday school class. Two points that I drew attention to in the text relate to the same theme of the cosmology of the author and readers, with its heavily populated spiritual and celestial realms.

    Right in the first paragraph, the author describes the book as a revelation given by God to Jesus who gives it to an angel who gives it to the author who will send it through messengers to churches where someone will read it aloud so that it can be heard by others.
    In other words, mediation features prominently.

    Once we reached the letter-style opening, we then encountered one of the first really puzzling details for most readers today – the reference to the “seven spirits of God” (Revelation 1:4 ).

    The seven spirits, featuring where other (and in particular later) creeds would refer to the Holy Spirit in the singular, are presumably a reference to something analogous. As Gabriel Bucur discusses in his book Angelomorphic Pneumatology (see my review in RBL), the most natural way to understand this reference is as to the idea of seven principal angels found in Judaism and in some early Christian texts. (When we looked up the names traditionally given to them, the reference to an archangel Raphael led naturally to speculation about archangels with names like Leonardo, Michelangelo and Donatello). In this period, the domain of God blended into Wisdom/Word/Spirit which blended into seven archangels. It would take some time before all this was standardized among Christians.

    The ancient worldview that Revelation reflects imagined a cosmic bureaucracy akin to that in empires. There might be one supreme emperor, humor or divine, but on a day-t0-day basis one dealt with lesser functionaries. And so the structure of religion between Jewish “monotheism” and “pagan polytheism” was in this period at best a matter of where authorized worship was directed, and not a statement about the populousness of the cosmos or the amount of celestial red tape that might clog up its effective working.

    As we concluded our treatment of that aspect of the first chapter of Revelation, we touched on the subject of whether it makes sense to believe in angels today. I mentioned Frank Peretti’s novels, and a quote that I’ve shared here before but still cannot trace the source of, which asks why, if Christian texts such as Revelation depict victory through self-sacrifice, Peretti and others depict spiritual warfare as resembling a slightly Christianized version of He-Man vs. Skeletor.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2012/04/the-seven-spirits-of-god-and-heavenly-bureaucracy-in-the-book-of-revelation.html

  19. Ian, that was fascinating.

    “I don’t know all the answers, but I do know someone who does, and He loves to share if you care to dare”

    I’d love to hear your preach one day!

  20. Father, Son and Spirit become One as the Ancient of Days, and Faith, Hope and Love are His character attributes which complete Him, and the greatest of these is Love. Paul knew that these were abiding attributes of God.

  21. Don’t be an ass Zooro, this is not going to be pleasant – have some grace – EQ’ are no laughing matter – especially when people get crushed who ought not.
    So Bones, you ascribe to Historicism. I’ll leave that argument there as only time will really tell. I don’t really have an ism – I have a Guide, a Teacher within, who I ask questions of. Many of the answers are unconventional, and i have had some extremely unconventional things happen to me, as have others too.

    The main reason why i believe as I do is that I have seen what is coming. If you are not ready for it, then it will overtake you quickly. In 2000-2001 I prophesied of a major quake coming in about 10yrs, and of a Tsunami also. October 2009, the word came “The earth will be shaken 1st week of next September and the economy will be badly hit”.

    This week is looking troubling. We had a shake exactly where i heard the next one would be – under Kairos Street – 43.6s/172.62e. Kairos is a paper road near the city up on the hills, it is crossed by Khloros Rise. Khloros means pale green or pallid, as in a pale horse. Nothing really happens by chance.

    And of course you know what Kairos means…

  22. OK BONES, who or what is this talking about?

    Zech 4:10 from the AMP:
    10 Who [with reason] despises the day of small things? For these seven shall rejoice when they see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel. [These seven] are the eyes of the Lord which run to and fro throughout the whole earth.

    Zechariah 3:9 AMP
    For behold, upon the stone which I have set before Joshua, upon that one stone are seven eyes or facets [the all-embracing providence of God and the sevenfold radiations of the Spirit of God]. Behold, I will carve upon it its inscription, says the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity and guilt of this land in a single day.

  23. 15. Because of this I too, behold, since I heard of your faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and your love for all the saints,
    16. I never cease from confessing on your behalf and in remembering you in my prayers,
    17. That the Godhead of our Lord Jesus Christ, the father of Glory, should give you the spirit of wisdom and the revelation of his knowledge,
    18. And that he may brighten the eye of your hearts, that you may know what is the Hope of his calling and the wealth of the glory that is the inheritance of saints,
    19. And so that great power is magnified through us by our faith in him, according to His all consuming power.
    20. That He performed through Christ and raised him from the (house of the) dead and placed him from His right in heaven,
    21. Higher than all the thrones, authorities, powers and lordships, and higher than all the names that are ever praised, not only in this universe alone, except also in the future.
    22. And everything under his feet shall be worshipped and to him, as he is above everything, He has given the leadership of the KEHALA (Assembly of the called).
    23. Which is his body and the embodiment of the One who embodies all.

    Calling the Assembly of the Called “Church” is like calling Passover Easter, the birthday of Jesus Christmas, or Gehenna or Sheol Hell. By the way, if you want to know when Jesus was born, it is my conviction He was crucified on the eve of His birthday, Nisan 14. The Passover lamb was 1yr old from the previous year’s lambing, which in the Holy Land is April (think Aries), not December (Capricorn) or any other month. Besides, birthdays are pagan. There are only three mentions of birthdays in the Bible and they are all tragic. Job, the Massacre of the innocents, and Ecc – the day of a man’s death is better than his birth. Happy birthday to Charles….

  24. @Ian, why don’t you believe in hell, how do you interpret the scriptures in the new testament regarding everlasting torment etc? Interested in your interpretation?

  25. Hi Zorro. Long time no see.

    It’s the mask that does it!

    Bones & Co.
    Can’t believe you’re still feeding the kiwi troll.

  26. “Don’t be an ass Zooro, this is not going to be pleasant […]”

    Quite. I can imagine a giant weasel popping; there’ll be blood and guts scattered from here to kingdom come.

    I think I’m far better off as an ass than I would be as a weasel (perhaps it’s the case that judgement *really* begins with the genus Mustela).

  27. Hey Glittergirl – that is a whole can of worms for religious folks. The misapprehension of God’s mercy has more to do with how inherently nasty and judgmental people can be, especially those who are called to be witnesses, but as Paul seemed to spend much of his ministry being hounded by the dogs of the circumcision, so too anyone who stands for the truth is going to be persecuted, especially by those who should be brethren, but it did not stop him reaching out.

    Zorro, is Spanish for Fox. In an alpha numeric table, only three letters form a word, and that is 666 = FOX. And a Rapier, as Rob Roy said, is the sword of a Faggot, and not of a man.

    I do not hide behind an avatar – which is really an alter personality – you need to be one – besides – “they” know who you are already. I wonder how many so called Xians will be there to help with the beheading of believers. John 16:1-3.

    I remember when I provoked the Prince Spirit over Brisbane – this is somehow reminiscent of it – not from Brisbane are you Fox? Don’t mind it I translate your avatar into English Mr Fox?

    By the way, a Troll is actually a class of demon – but the only one I ever saw was in Brisbane.

  28. Geologically, South East Queensland is very stable, but prone to flooding and the threat of Tsunami. I have “seen” a Tsunami for the Gold Coast, I would speculate (not the Lord, but I) as being the result of our Alpine Fault going. There will be plenty of warning.

    As for Bris-bane, the answer I feel is in the name – Bris is the circumcision rite, as practiced by the dogs of the circumcision to paraphrase Paul.
    Bane means:
    1 a person or thing that ruins or spoils: Gambling was the bane of his existence.
    2. a deadly poison (often used in combination, as in the names of poisonous plants): wolfsbane; henbane.
    3. death; destruction; ruin.
    4. Obsolete . that which causes death or destroys life: entrapped and drowned beneath the watery bane.

    But naming a city after noted God-hater and looney luminary Charles Darwin was dumb – it will be hit for a third time when Singapore also gets nailed by a huge EQ in the Banda Sea sending Tsunamis to wipe out both Cities. Goodbye to Sin-gap-ore andto all its abominations.

    Read the Book – every island and every mountain will shake. All you Preterits, Dominionists, Kingdom Now, Word of Faith, Dispensationalists, Historicists, etc., will have to suck the sav on this one – sorry – I only report what I believe I have been given to see as a watchman on the wall.

    I have been given to see the bowls of wrath, I heard God say, “I cannot hold this back much longer – the people are demanding judgment”.

    You guys really, don’t get it, do you? And until we get it, we are going to keep getting it. Part of the reason we are getting such seismicity is that we have sucked out so much oil from fault zones – which is the shock absorber for tectonic movement – God thought of everything. However, this does not account for the volcanoes springing to life around the globe, which when they go, especially the 10 so-called Super Volcanoes, of which we have two, one of which is way overdue – Taupo – and expected to blow any tick of the clock take out three cities and many thousands of people.

    I am ambivalent about Brisbane, it was founded as a penal colony for repeat offenders, i.e. the recidivist riff-raff of Sydney and Melbourne. Brisbane himself was an agent of the Crown and ably assisted in the robbery and dispersal of Aboriginal lands.

    It matters not which city you are from – Isaiah prophesied that when Damascus is destroyed, then EVERY CITY will be destroyed. It is my conviction, after a word I got last year that “Every proud penis of man will be cast down”.

    If you know anything about psyche and tower builders you will know that it is rooted in Primal Pagan phallic obsession. If you know anything about God, you should know that they are an affront to God. He showed me how a steeple is like a satanic middle finger salute to God, Man exalting, glorifying himself instead of being glorified by God. But Jesus did not tell us to build towers, He told us to COUNT THE COST of our tower building to the heavens, and the cost is our relationship with God – you cannot lay down you life and become a living stone in His Temple and build your own reptilian reputation at the same time.

    Funny thing, when my son watched the 17 story tower block above what was our shop gyrating in the EQ, he said it looked like a SNAKE. I won’t even begin to imagine what an 88 floor building in Melbourne will do, given that when the Big One hits there, it will be devastating. Two key things to watch for – the destruction of CHCH and Wellington, and Damascus – then be sure your shaking is soon too. I feel God will soon force the devil’s hand and shorten the time for the sake of the elect.

  29. I vote you Ian for the most interesting, original, posts.

    Bris and Bane?

    “Part of the reason we are getting such seismicity is that we have sucked out so much oil from fault zones – which is the shock absorber for tectonic movement ”

    While you’re on it Ian, what do you think about Japan’s future?

    btw, I have heard many people talk about Bris and the Gold Coast and tsunamis. You wouldn’t actually need many meters of tsunami to be devastating. Don’t really want to think about it.

  30. An M9.1 in Wellington coupled with the expected 8.4 at Wairau and also Whanagui letting rip will send a wave I “heard up to three stories high at Broadbeach.” My wife was staying there with a grandson – she takes one over each year and does all the Aussie stuff the kids enjoy. Funny thing, in 2001 I went along to Movie World and the Holy Spirit insisted that I go on the rides, the scarier the better. Being a grandad (I am now 57) and out of shape and overweight, I was like a bit kid. About 2005, I was sitting in front of my computer, and just paused to reflect on the person of God when I felt like a click in the Spirit,w here I was in my car and the ride was about to commence, and that the only way out was in effect locked, and I was locked into what would be the ride of my life. But I at the same time knew it was futile to escape – I am but clay in His hands to mold as He sees fit – and I did not even want to – sort of Spiritual Stockholm syndrome but with a Savior rather than an Uncle, if you get my drift.

    When the first EQ hit, the motion which made others literally pack their pants hardly phased me, and I had been drawn to pray at 3:00am, the Quake was at 4:35am. Three months before the Holy Spirit had compelled me to study my Masonic roots and to “Get int ouch with your own inner Mason”. Shudder – hereditary spirits anyone?

    Now here is a curly one for you. I know an Aramaic scholar. I was introduced to him by God – it was one of those appointments. He has told me that my insights into Aramaic could only be that of a PhD or the Holy Spirit. Quite frankly, I am not that smart, in fact as my Welsh “sister” Charlotte Church said, “I’m a bit of a lazy bugger really, truth be known.” Don’t you love the Welsh?

    Anyway, I asked him on two words, the Aramaic commonly translated as Church, and the word for king in 1 Peter 2:17 – respect the kings.

    17. Respect every human being. Love your brother. Submit to God (or and from God be in submission). And respect the kings.

    I had recently been drawn to this text in John’s gospel and it clicked. Read it first then I shall endeavor to explain.

    1. “Do not lose heart, believe in God, and in me believe.
    2. “My Father’s abodes are great [enough.] And if not, I will make them (I will say and you shall have), so, whence I go to provide you a country.
    3. “And if I go to provide you a country, I will come back again to settle you with me, that where I come, [then] you too can be.
    4. “And where I go to, you know [where that is,] and the way, you know that [too.]”
    5. Thomas said to him, “[Our] Lord, we do not know where you are going and how can we know where is the way?”
    6. Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the Life. No one comes to my Father except through me.

    Back in 2001, I had my Tower of Babel experience in a living vision. The Lord showed me a vast country adn told me that is where He wanted to take me. Quite daunting – a vast expanse of land – a Praire as far a the eye could see, and utterly undeveloped – i sensed that this was the kingdom, likened unto an eternal field, as it were. I got the point, I had not even arrived yet, but i saw the prize of my high calling. The kingdom itself – another country where may abide with the Father and the Son in the Glory of the Holy Spirit. So be it.

    I said all that to preface this from Vic Alexander.

    The word “king” comes from “mal-kah.” Which also means “property owner,” a ruler or authority. There are nations that have leaders or presidents. These are not kings. The word “king” is only related to monarchies. Rulers and dictators are not kings.

    Now think on this, and it might just blow your mind. We (are to) reign as kings in Life by One Christ Jesus. We are meant to possess the kingdom, it is His good pleasure to give it to us, but even more so, the sons of the kingdom ought to possess the earth and its fruit – meaning the harvest of souls. This is what he is talking about with hundredfold increase, with reigning in righteousness as kings, as possessors of a country, even the country of Almighty God and His kingdom come. See how in every Christian movement there is always some truth – it is winnowing out the chaff from the grain where messages are concerned, but it is very hard to prevent the one who would sow tares in your field, but the is a harvest of Truth to deal with the lie of the tare seed and its sleep inducing poison. This is why it is so vital to draw water from your own well, eat from your own store, and be filled with the Spirit like a wise virgin betrothed to Christ.

    So in summary, it is for us to reign as kings and to be the authority in the earth, which has been stolen from most by religious obligation to a works oriented salvation, and that damnable heresy dispensation-ism, the very strength of Christian Zionism, the CZ of God’s jewel box.

    Get hold of Vic’s trans of Ephesians and read it thoroughly, it will rip you a whole new paradigm. The scriptures have never come alive to me as they have in his translation – if it reads strangely remember it is essentially Eastern so just pretend like it is Yoda talking to you, or if you are used to conversing with Jewish folk, you will see the similarity in style. Once you start running the Eastern Bible with the Western one, there are very obvious discrepancies, but without exception, they Aramaic is far more redemptive, eg: The recompense is mine, I shall repay. Well, didn’t He? 0(:->)

  31. Ian, so many of your sentences and expressions make me laugh.
    Do you talk like that? Preach like that?

    “get in touch with your inner Mason”

    “sort of Spiritual Stockholm syndrome but with a Savior rather than an Uncle, if you get my drift.”

    lol Do you drink coffee?

  32. Sorry, I garbled that first paragraph. My wife was going to Broadbeach. I have had a sense of a Tsunami for there for some time, and was concerned – so I asked how big the wave would be and heard “three stories”. I asked if it was safe for her to go and heard “Yes”. They had a wonderful time – God really graced her stay. He’s good like that. Do not fear what is coming – if you get prompted to move, then do so, if you are compelled to stay put, know that God will keep him in safety whose heart is fixed upon Him. King Tide tomorrow morning at just before 8am, 3 days after a New Moon…and the whacky (Guelf) Windsors have been in town. Ouch.

    By the way, when you have seen visions which involve many people dying and then they do, and you realise afterward you simply did not know how to pray over such a thing…the watchman anointing is without repentance…it functions regardless…now I know much more how and when to pray so to do only as I see the Father do it. But one thing of which I am sure, is that every Isle shall be shaken and moved out of its place. There is a theory that Japan will literally sink into the sea as the crust on the ocean floor just off the East Coast is kind of like the crunchy stuff flower arrangers use – and is being crushed.

    I think personally that the Anglo American Eurocentric union will want both Japan and China out of the picture and will move to collapse the Chinese economy by stifled demand for their products and triggering a quake under the Three Gorges dam, which by virtue of that good old Chinese character trait, corruption, is a disaster waiting to happen – it was built on top of a known fault by a bunch of crooks, as Max Keiser of RT-TV said.

    Be careful what you buy into – the whole Middle East thing has been flipped – it is a CIA/MI6/Mossad Psyop. I guess maybe you CZ’smight say, “Hell yeah” to that but as for me, i will endeavor to serve the Prince of Peace. Watch out for wolves and avoid idols.

  33. Amazing.

    “and will move to collapse the Chinese economy by stifled demand for their products and triggering a quake under the Three Gorges dam,

    How would they go about triggering that quake?

  34. We tend to think in terms of “solid” whereas all matter is essentially comprised of light and so-called solid matter is just frozen light, as it were, light “slowered” down to below the speed of light. By applying the requisite frequency and or or shock. anything may be broken – hence a human voice may shatter crystal and a cleavers blade can easily split the toughest of diamonds once the cleavage plain and point i identified and targeted.

    If you take the time to study up on the properties of the HAARP array and its microwave energy deep earth tomography capabilities and the patents applied for, you will find that it is almost the perfect combined weapons platform and communication tool. By exciting a fault system, especially while taking advantage of natural phenomena such as tidal pull (it is a King tide here this morning – most of our quakes have been associated with King Tides and proximity of the moon to the earth) a release of energy is achieved. This is also why whale stranding and EQ’s go hand in hand, and we had such a stranding a couple of days ago. The HAARP messes with their guidance systems.

    One tell tale sign of an impending EQ is a sharp increase in static electricity and disturbance to satellite communications – when you are about to get yours watch for the TV going ape, or a lot of cell phone difficulties, and an eerie sense of stillness. People become fractious, animals become aggressive or scared and epileptic fits are not uncommon. It is because we are all made of light as is everything.

    In other words, HAARP may be used to stimulate EQ’s along with other influences. and parking a Gozillion tonnes of water on a known fault line is like priming a disaster. The dam is shoddily built and EQ’s were triggered by the filling of the catchment lake. It is a disaster ready to happen – and was I believe cynically set up that way, by taking advantage of the institutionalized Chinese greed. Let’s face it, is there a bigger sucker on the planet than atheist communists?

  35. God gave me a gift for expression. My 6th form English Master told me that personally and behaviorally he found me a pain the nether regions (and he administered like retribution to mine, the sick little pervy ex British Army Intelligence Major that he was) but that “By God, you can write”. Never a truer word spoken – it is literally by God. My older brother was until recently one of the most senior journo’s in NZ and former secretary of the Journo’s union, He used to be very principled until he took up the post and found that his career hit the wall…and my Uni grad sister is also a published author as is my mother and maternal grandfather. So it is in the family but i like to think I give my gift back to God so that He may be glorified in the earth – I am the white sheep of the family.

    My letter’s to the editor have won 5 best awards – for what it is worth, and the most outstanding have come froma phrase the Lord just drops into my being and as I writ, it just flows. I love it when a spirit of prophecy takes over or the spirit of revelation just explodes as you answer a query, and as Paul, I will debate all with all. I find this so stimulating, but a while back was challenged with “Imagine yourself on a deserted isle, cut off from everything, no means of communication nor fellowship – where would you get your manna, your Words of Life? This is the true starting point to faith and relationship, not the destination.

  36. BY the way, I was diagnosed dyslexic – hence I don’t even see some of my typos and why I see in patterns I guess. And yes I like coffee but even more Yerba Mate, the wonderful tonic health drink from South America, and a little wine for mine oft infirmities…

    In the coming “austerity” (I will send leanness upon My fat ones, says the Lord) we will have to become so God reliant, as in “Have the Faith of God” or the God kind of faith, and this kind of faith is only manifested by the communication of God and separation from the appetites of the world, flesh and devil.

    Funny thing is, that there seems to have been quite a crop of spiritually minded folk born in 1955. It is just coincidence but Tolkien’s “Return of The King” was released on my birthday. And of course 1955 was the year of Rock around the Clock!

    Today is feeling decidedly eerie. Birds are behaving very fractious, cat is clingy, air is very still, very high static – must see what the TV is up to! I usually get a warning to pray just before they hit, as do many. One guy up north reported being literally rolled out of bed on Sept 4 at 4:00am, said he was not religious at all and had been to church twice in his life, yet found himself praying with words he did not know that just poured out of him for 35 minutes and was still doing so when the effects of the quake reached Palmerston North, about 400kms away. There were so many in prayer before it hit – it was like a Sovereignly ordained prayer campaign. It is not uncommon for folk to get a real sense of foreboding. Many are dreaming of water – a counselor client of mine reports many dreaming of being inundated by water or of experiencing EQ’s and Tsunamis, especially those who had such dream from before the first quake.

    Intercession had been made for 10yrs before the first quake to speak to people in their dreams even, to warn them of what is coming. Many believers have seen the same things. One man reported a vision of an unknown fault out to sea off Kaiapoi and of “seeing” a quake and sudden Tsunami. He was pilloried in the Press and ostracized as a fear monger – yet just recently GNS has announced the discovery of a fault of similar potential as the Greendale fault which supposedly caused the caused the Sept 2010 Quake. Even though it is capable of producing a 7 plus undersea earthquake just off the Coast, “they” don’t anticipate it causing a Tsunami – yeah, right.

    By the way, the last time I preached it was in reverential whispers and saying only exactly what the Holy Spirit gave to say. I saw a smallish assembly – maybe 30 or so, all go down under the Power without a one being touched or having a catcher. I witnessed one young lady literally float down and hit the floor so softly and soundlessly as if supported by unseen hands – and then her father, last in line and leader of the congregation, got blasted clean off his feet like a shotgun blast of anointing. This may sound crazy but as Father showed me to do, I simply did, and He did the works. I held in my hands what felt like a medicine ball of anointing, it was quite tangible, and I threw it at him and it hit him in the midriff and he went flying back and landed all akimbo on the floor, giggling like a child. I have not really been released to do it again as they did not really get the message but wanted more of the manifestations. This is not p[lay school, this is the school of hard knocks – better get used to it – the props and comforts will soon be a thing of the past. Prepare for an enforced fast from the world as God sends leanness on His fat ones – so bone up on getting to know the will of God so you may pray thereby, and His will be done in earth as it is in heaven. If we mess with the clay we get our hands dirty, and shall not ascend into the mountain of the Lord, to Zion and to God. He is the Potter, not Harry. We are the clay, and is workmanship. There is a saying to keep your hands off God’s Glory, his Girls and His Gold. But I would say, even more so, we ought keep our hands off His clay! Romans 9 deals to that stupid Humanist Enlightenment nonsense of Free Will.

    Perhaps the best place to start to understand the Will or Sermon of God is in Ephesians 1.

    9. And He declared to us the sermon of His will, that which from the beginning He had consecrated through him,
    10. The supreme reign over the fulfillment of all the Ages, so that everything that is in heaven and on earth is renewed through Christ all over again. (From the Head)
    11. And we are chosen by him, according to how we were consecrated at the beginning, and according to how He wished everyone to be deployed by the intentions of his will.

    Get it? HIS WILL. From the beginning, when God had a LAMB SLAIN! The devil has successfully robbed the believers of their authority by twisting the scriptures and saddling them with the Mosaic and Levitical Law of the Jews, added for transgressions UNTIL THE PROMISE SHOULD COME and the Day Star arise in your hearts.

    This conditioning to be under the Law is what will prepare the many for the imposition of the Noachide Laws. But at some stage in the near future, the whole world will turn on Israel like a tethered scape goat and two thirds of the population will die – and only one third of them are True Torah believers. The rest are Zionists and atheist/Communist.

    By the way, never ever forget that to most Jews, Christians are deluded, and if yous show nay real spiritual gifting and God speaks to them on your behalf, that they will assume that you are in fact a lost sheep of the House of Israel. Zionists think guys like John Hagee and Co are just useful idiots.

    If you can receive it, the Hebrew Roots and Emerging Church movements are the last level of the Tower to the heavens. But notice that in depictions of the Tower it is shown as an incomplete work – you never will be able to finish it – such is the futility of your labors in building towers to the heavens. This unfinished work is in contradiction to the (it is) FINISHED WORK OF CALVARY AND THE RESURRECTION FROM SHEOL, leading captivity captive – the first harvest of souls.

    The second is coming – soon. And today feels just like Feb 22 2011. It is raining lightly but very still and muggy. If it comes out hot and heavy later…0(:-}) gulp…no matter how many of these things you go through, they make you feel very small, very, very small…and the worst part is that I have seen the aftermath of the last one..,pray for us…please…

    Don’t be so busy beavering for bucks to buy bricks to build Babylon that you forget to pray for all men everywhere, and especially for the saints, and confirm the widows and the orphans and the stranger ad the hungry in your midst – judge not, lest you be judged. Love, one to another, even as He first, originally, and from the beginning, loved us. So be it.

  37. Everything’s black and white, isnt it Steve? If u criticise israel u must love hamas. Interesting logic that. Israel got what it wanted. It wanted a divided Plo tearing each other apart. Remember israel supported hamas. now theyve got something worse than arafat. religious extremists!

  38. Sorry, should I use pictures? Hey if what I am publishing is for you, then read and enjoy, if it is not…

    What I do is ask the Lord what to read and what to gloss over and what to not bother with. Sometimes something I would maybe have skipped over He will say “Read it and learn thereby” and other times even stuff that would otherwise fascinate is not for me. Just be led by the Holy Spirit and not by intellect, and please excuse my zeal fueled verbosity.

  39. You remind me of someone Ian, but I just can’t place it.
    Have you ever preached in Australia?
    Or maybe I just know a person or two who are so similar.

    Very strange.

  40. The only time I preached in Oz was at Money Changers, Noosa. Sorry, “Life Changers”. It was once of those God things. I had introduced a young lady to Jesus and been told to give her my favorite Bible. On the plane to Oz with my wife and youngest son, The Lord told me to go to a Christian book where there was a nice new Bible for her. When we got there, my wife sent me out for food and being my first time in Noosa, I took a wrong turn to the Supermarket and saw a sign “Christian Books”. Turned out they wwere having a sale and had one girly beige colored leather bound bible the same as I had given her. I go talking to the Pastor and he asked me what if anything I saw for their church. Out of my heart came “God wants to put a match under it”. He thought that this was the revival the had been praying for and maybe I was the agency of it. He looked remarkably like an older me. When gave the word I saw the church destroyed, not a stone left standing.

    I told – him of how God had recently revealed to me Christ as His spiritual DNA in us. I had also been instructed to send this through to Kenneth Copeland, of whom this man was quite a fan. The next morning at 4:00am, the Holy Spirit woke me and told me to turn on TV and see what Ken was saying. He was preaching the revelation I had sent to him. Apparentl Rod saw this too and took this as a sign from God and invited me to preach Sunday night. The anointing on the message was powerful and God showed up!

    I was approached by two men and we were led to pray together – the Power of God blasted us – it was amazing. But by the next day, those who were ambitious began to circle like carrion crows and the two guys next in line went to work to destroy my reputation. It worked – Rod bought the lies of a man in CHCH from the house church I had recently left after encountering a Leviathan Spirit and who knew one of the ambitious ones and who given an evil report. He himself was facing charges in the States for gun running and while the whole church had prophesied his release and return, but I had heard he would be there for two years, so apparently it was all my fault. Christians!

    18 months later the church was no more – nothing left. And the gun runner spent two years in the hell of a County Jail.

    Through my encounters in NZ and OZ with “Christians” I began to really see what was “wrong with the Church” – the Holy Spirit had told me 6 mmonths before that He was going to show me what was wrong with the church. The self-appointed but obviously anointed (sometimes) pastor of the house-church was taken aback by my statement. 6 months later, I sat utterly dismayed – I thought that I had found so “Go to” beliveres who were really on to it, but it was just the saem old same old which made me leave church to begin with. As I sat, feeling very flat, wondering what the hell was going on, the Lord came and lifted up and held up a full length mirror in the Spirit and I “saw” everything I had seen wrong reflected in me – I saw it in me – I was what was wrong with church.

    I accepted my judgment, and heard, “Now, do you want to know how to fix it (in you)?”

    “Yes Lord, I do”

    “OK, so we begin”…and that was 11yrs ago – call me a slow learner. I have had to literally relearn since 1999, and especially since 2001 (what an Odyssey!) and had to forsake everything I knew of the old to learn the New Thing God was teaching, yet not new, but old, or original, or as at the beginning.

  41. Sorry, that was a bit garbled – the church in CHCH was connected to the church in Noosa by friendships – both churches crashed and burned. But I too had my Waterloo a while later.
    God will raise up a New thing in the earth – but you need a revelation of what John meant by “Yet not new, but as at the beginning”. Full circle, as Phil Keaggy sang.

    The giftings and callings of God are without recalcitrance – you cannot give them back – so you just have to go with it – whithersoever the Spirit leads.

    And if you want a real eye-opener, ask the Holy Spirit to teach you about the Black Widow spirit and human sacrifice – you will never look at church the same way again.

    The hardest part with Christians is for them to leave Babylon and Egypt and the Jerusalem which is from beneath.

  42. So often with exegesis the result is that we exit Jesus. We read the Bible or we encounter the Word at that interface, that meeting place of the Spirit – but if we come as sons before Almighty God, and ha shatan is yet amongst us, if we are in effect, albeit unknowingly (Forgive them for they know not), the double minded servant of two masters, pleading our case before God or seeking ratification for our prejudices while concealing our secret fears, then we shall receive NOTHING OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD. Even Job, the most righteous man in the world, had this problem, in that he secretly feared his outcomes would come out.

    Now here is a classic case of how we perceive. Paul wrote:

    6. For our business is great indeed, that which is the submission to God to the extent of our ability.*
    7. For we neither brought anything into the world,* nor can we even take out what we learned from it. (Wow, did you get that?)
    8. That is why all we worry about is food and clothing.
    9. Those, however, who wish to be wealthy, will fall to temptation, in pitfalls and into a multitude of foolish and searing lusts that will sink humanity into the throes of destruction and ultimately oblivion.
    10. For the root of every evil is the consideration for money above all else,* and there are people who absolutely adore money, and they lose all faith and open themselves up to a multitude of demons.
    *6:6 Lit. Ar. idiomatic expression: “To the worthiness of our capacity.”
    *6:7 Lit. Ar. id.: “Universe.”
    *6:10 Lit. Ar. idiomatic expression: “Money’s compassion.”

    Now please note especially verse 8. The way that this is usually pitched and received is that we ought ONLY worry or concern ourselves with food and clothing – which inevitably becomes comfort and provision – but worry is from fear and lack – the very thing which compels people to seek to be wealthy in this world’s good.

    I believe what Paul was obviating here is that “All of the things which we worry about amount to issues concerning food and clothing – provision, and because you do not trust God you seek the good of this world instead of the God of both heaven and earth, the Almighty Provider God – El Shaddai! Jehovah Jireh!

    Or as Jesus said, have the faith of God – the God kind of faith – but this (kind of) faith does not come out except by the communication of God and separation from the world, flesh and devil.

    This sense of poverty, of impoverishment which has been sowed as tares, and leavened into the Bible (mixed metaphors I know), along with our cultural conditioning, sets us up to be patsies for ambitious Pharisees and persons while we try and maintain a pious poise we think came from Paul but was in fact a deliberate twisting and insinuation to fear and a sense of lack.

    The way that the congregations have sat back and let themselves be fed on a diet of grain mingled with tares, and water soured with bitterness is appalling. We are to eat from our own store and drink from our own well.

    It is co-dysfunctional and destructive and is given over the Goddess worship and the Black Widow spirit which goes all the way back to the Garden and to the original Jezebel, Eve, the mother of all the living. God admonished her – “Because of this you husband will dominate you and you will seek, even desire or crave his position” – the perpetual battle of the sexes was joined.

    Until these strongholds of ha shatan, these things which savor of Man and not of God, are conquered in us, cast down by the weapons of our warfare which are not of the flesh – Spirit conquers flesh – but which are MIGHTY through GOD to the pulling down of strongholds and the humbling of every lofty thing, we labor in vain, building Babylon, good little Xian work ethic masons instead of Holy Ghost carpenters.

    But we wrestle not with flesh and blood, for the weapons of our warring are not of the flesh. That’s called harmony, no wonder the church is full of dissonance, such that they not understand each other – that’s called Babylon – and the confusion of disagreement.

    Are you getting this? Those who largely taught you to read could not do so themselves, due to there UNDER-standing not being the ONE FOUNDATION GIVEN – CHRIST. So you, me and we have been led by BLIND GUIDES and they bind up heavy obligations, grievous to be borne, such that you should not enter in, but there is therefore now NO OBLIGATION to those who are in Christ, and if you are in Christ then the Spirit of God is in you. (Roms 8:1-9)

    The Law was the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, to the Promise, but now that the Promise has come, there is no more need of the Law, for the Whole Law is summed up in this ONE SAYING, “That you should love – one to another, even as I first loved you.” So be it.

  43. 8. That is why all we worry about is food and clothing.

    The simple change of emphasis on this connecting sentence changes the meaning entirely.

    Try “Hence, all that we worry about concerns provision.”

    Compare “All we should ever worry about is food and clothing”.

    Now what makes more sense? Unless you have a religious poverty spirit – which ironically is the very thing which lust works by – hence why the whole world has grown rich by the luxuries of her inward frills. (Aramaic). It’s all about the goddess, it is all about sex, and if the goddess hates anyone more than Jesus, it is Paul and or Elijah, and her soul mate Ahab does her bidding.

    The Serpent of the Old asks, “Has God given you everything? Yet one thing you lack – eat of the Tree and you will see!”

    Its the same old con folks – the MO has never changed. If God has already given us ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, in or Spiritual DNA, then what more can we ever gain? Is gain godliness?

    But where the problem arises is that we may suppose to have all and be filled and yet be blind, naked and barren in terms of God’s kingdom riches.

    God introduces you to Jesus (This is My Son), and Jesus introduces you to you, and then to God, and when and as you can be trusted, He gives you His Power, but be foolish and He will cut you off, yet He is able to graft you back in again.

    Nothing shall be impossible to God and to him that believes, and this is the revelation, the message and the messenger which shall harvest the nations – and I am not talking about me, I am talking about the message. I am putting it out there at this point because I sense that the Internet will soon be gone. When the darkness comes, the time of trial to come upon the whole world, remember these words. I pray that God will open your eyes to what is coming. Try Revelation 17, especially verse 17. Shalom.

  44. I’ve got a friend like you Ian.

    “Because of this you husband will dominate you and you will seek, even desire or crave his position”

    Now there’s food for thought.

  45. Its the relational imbalance – physical presence versus presence of mind – men are generally stronger and more belligerent while woman tend to be more clever and manipulative. Even though men think they are all of that, the more that they given to this supposition, the more readily Jezebel may usurp their position – she stoops to conquer, but having conquered, she then exalts herself as a Queen, having no master – the Queen of heaven.

  46. The rendering of the text from Genesis in the Aramaic does not allude to the desire expressed in the KJV (as in “your desire shall be to your husband”), but does reference that the woman would bring forth children in pain and that they would return to her husband, ergo they would become their father’s children, the sins of the father’s etc. such that no matter how much she tried to bend them to her influence, the default position would be paternal rather than maternal. This is why in so many relationships the woman seeks to undermine the husband’s authority to supplant his generation with hers, itself probably an echo of the fact that Adam blew it (and still does) and it would be for her Seed (which is Christ – the second Adam, the life giving Spirit) to bruise the head of the serpent, and not his. Even though the woman was deceived, it was due to her “weaker” disposition to be naive and to believe while the man acted foolishly, forsaking his Head, Christ, so it would be through the woman that redemption would come.

    It is not so much what the woman does which is the problem but which the man fails to do, which creates a vacuum, and as everyone ought to know, nature abhors a vacuum.

    Isn’t the Bible fascinating? Forget reality TV!

  47. we visit this church from time to time as we travel around.with every visit we get refreshed and whoever started this site would have to be very religious–its obvious. count it all as dung i’d say. the poor guy starts off by saying the new earth tribe is recognised (all) around the world as a cult? liar liar pants on fire how would you know that.?Please take your religious vandetta out on satan and his cohorts.Have you been sharing the love of christ lately with others,have you led many to christ lately?? how about you lose youself in christ and get a good dose of joy bro,then go share it with the world like many of the tribe do. Pete.Warwick Queensland . PS .I hope to meet you one day so i can give you a holy hug,-and visa versa.

  48. The bottom line is that all “churches” are kind of cults – but the Body of Christ is a living, eternal reality, not made with hands, forever in the heavens. I was reading today about what Whitefield and Wesley preached – let’s just say it is obviously love which covers for the multitude of our sins and God who gets things done despite us rather than because of us. I could take the message of virtually any preacher and eviscerate it, but what is the point? Whitefield and Wesley are in heaven along with all the folks they said had gone to or were going to hell.

    To me christian cults which preach hell are also utterly anathema yet I do not see anyone in this forum (apart from me) railing against such un-scriptural nonsense – yet the many still believe in hell and preach it with a fervor and a fever. Oddly enough, Whitefield could have been a contemporary of Todd Bentley if one reads the criticisms of the day.

    Yes Peter, count it ALL dung. The crust is all just so much dung and dust, it is the Christ who is the King. Joy is our strength, but pseudo-joy is also just vanity and delusion. Trying to revive “church” is like trying to kick start a corpse – I asked the lord what it is we need and He said “You have not even begun to sing the New Song – you need to learn the New Song.” This is what will cause a wave of God consciousness across the earth – The New Song – and those clothed in Christ who shall sing it – and it begins in the Great South Land of the Holy Spirit – AOTEAROA and then it sweeps Queensland and Oz and then the world. Noosa is ground zero for Oz…after the Tsunami…

    The greatest moves of God come out of the greatest persecution and affliction and suffering and crying out to God for redemption. But revivals never last and they become congregational cults trying to reproduce what God did, having a form of godliness which denies the Power. They craft a container for their relics and then defend it to the hilt!

    It is very easy to spot a social club church from a living, vibrant, power-packed, miracle producing congregation – for starters, who is falling down under the Power and testifying of a truth that God is among you? Or is it just another Babylonian fun fest indistinguishable from any other happy-clappy religion, like Hinduism or Islam?

    It really pays to understand the difference between the function of the amygdala and hypothalamus compared to the Spirit and how it is that people can reproduce emotions, sensations etc which are learned or remembered.

  49. By the way, the DNA of man is twisted for a reason, only Jesus can “straighten it out”. To be warped and twisted is in your DNA – get used to it – it will manifest as all sorts of things, the most subtle being religion – which is why religious folks try to tie you up in knots and bind up heavy burdens – whatsoever they bind is bound. Have the Mind of Christ.

  50. To me christian cults which preach hell are also utterly anathema yet I do not see anyone in this forum (apart from me) railing against such un-scriptural nonsense – yet the many still believe in hell and preach it with a fervor and a fever.

    I thought we all came to the conclusion that Gehenna wasn’t Hell.

    The translators can’t even make up their minds about Hades/Hell. It was just another scare tactic to stop people falling away and of course give indulgences.

  51. Ian,
    christian cults which preach hell are also utterly anathema

    Jesus,
    Mt 5:22 “But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

    Mt 5:29 “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

    Mt 5:30 “And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

    Mt 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Mt 18:9 “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

    Mt 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

    Mt 23:33 “Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

    Mr 9:43 “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched–

    James,
    Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell.

    Hell = gehenna – valley of fire – from a composite of gay & hinnom – valley & lamentation

    Peter
    2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment…

    Hell = tartaroo – the deepest abyss of hell

    Maybe Ian considers Jesus, James, Matthew, Mark, Luke and Peter to be out of some cult.

    Or maybe, because Jesus discusses the subject with such confidence, we should take note of his warning.

  52. Knew it would not take long to trot out the same old same old.

    “Shall be in danger of the GEHENNA OF FIRE.”

    In Norse tradition, Hel was a cold place ruled by a Friggan woman where a man could not get warm, but in the Mediterranean it was a hot place ruled by a male demon where you could not slake your thirst. Go figure – someone got it wrong.

    All you have done is to quote a bunch of easily answered mistranslated scriptures. Hell does not equal Gehenna – study it out – Hell and Gehenna are utterly different yet sufficiently similar so the simple cannot see the difference. Gehenna was the rubbish dump, the purifying fire.

    Our God is a purifying fire – Jesus is the fire of hell!

    Please do not twist my words in the same way you offer the twisted words of translators who may have a degree but who do not know Jesus. Why do you think that I would make such a statement having experienced what I have? Do you think that I would dare to contradict God on this matter? I have no desire to go to Gehenna, it must be hell in there, better not to die in your sin but to live in His righteousness.

    Ye indeed, woe unto you Pharisees as you make your converts twice the child of Gehenna as you, only it is you who have a hell of a problem – I am a preacher of the kingdom – not of hell.

    Ask a believing Jew what their concept of hell is – they will laugh at you and tell you that it is a Catholic/Christian concept. What is more, the devil laughs at you too, but God’s confession over us never waivers. Thank God for that!

  53. Actually, that’s your presume! I don’t preach ‘hell’, or fire and brimstone. I just acknowledge the presence of Gehenna, hades, Sheol and tartarus in scripture.

    That is why I showed the words ‘Gehenna’ and ‘tartarus’ in the scriptures I presented as evidence that Jesus, James and Peter spoke about them in clear and understandable terms.

    Getting the concept wrong is one thing, denying it, even though Jesus spoke about it is quite another.

    If you want to go into Greek understandings as recorded by New Testament writers, you would have to include the concept of the Logos, which was used by John, and unlearned fisherman, to describe the Word being God made flesh.

    The Greeks may have missed he boat on a few issues, but it seems they caught the tide occasionally.

  54. I said Jesus is the fire of Gehenna – the fire of Gehenna is very real – just as the concept of hell as has been sold to the church is erroneous. By all means use the Greek, the Hebrew, and especially the Aramaic (the real language of Jesus, not koine Greek) and by all means use Gehenna, Tartarus, Sheol – but please realise that the word Hel is a borrowed misnomer, like Easter.

    What gets me mad as hell and really burns me up is this idiotic, fear and judgment based concept of eternal suffering and torment, and that it would be done in the presence of God forever and ever – i mean – even a child could see through that lie – it takes an adult or a theologian to sell that pile of dung as being anything other than crap. Sorry, it gets me angry – and I will let you in on a little secret, it really gets Jesus too – at least that is what He showed me – but then hell, I could be wrong and be bound for eternal fiery torment myself…

    If you only knew how scriptures have been tweaked – just enough to put you off course – which is why I prefer the Ancient Aramaic and better still, to get the answers straight from the source.

    The Great Awakening (to me the Great Leavening) was based on the new birth and hell. Both are erroneous. It is not about filling a god shaped hole in your heart, it is about becoming a GOD SHAPED WHOLE! Don’t you know that you must be born from above? What is flesh is flesh, what is Spirit is Spirit. Your flesh came out of the ground, your Spirit came down from heaven out of God and will return there.

    As Jesu said to Nicodemus, Come on Nic, don’t you get this stuff? You should know better! You are a Jew for God’s sake!

    Until you realsie tyhat you are reqally born from above, made in the image of God, you cannot be “Born anew” or awakened to righteousness. What the leavened new birth message is all about is making you an honorary Jew, making you “qualify” for the eternal Life (they of course already have a dispensation).

    Catholics, Arminians, Calavanists – they are all wrong – and it is easy to prove – simply look to the fruit – the foliage may fool you, and fruitlessness is futile, but the fruit is fool proof. Just because you believe something it is not automatically right. Arguments over salvation are futile – God settled the matter by having a Lamb slain from BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD.

    MY first question to those who believe in a literal hell is who do you want to see suffering for all eternity? The answer will of course be “No one” or maybe Adoplh Hilter or Ted Bundy, but in reality I have found that those who believe in hell harbor deep and abiding resentment in their souls – hatreds and judgments – and the belief in hell is the evidence of this.

    Me, I am just like God, I want that everyone should be saved and I am not willing that any be lost – how about you? Ask Jesus to search YOUR soul and find out why you prefer to believe in hell and who it is that you want to see consigned there, and if perchance it is no one, then congratulations, you are just like me and my Dad.

    I can remember thinking years ago, “You just wait until they get to hell, they will sure find out then!” What an idiot, it was me who got found out, and that’s how I found out about hell. The Pharisees may be selling you their “truth” but you are the ones who are buying the lie – so prove all things.

    Tentmaker Ministries is a great resource on these matters, yet ironically, in the Aramaic Paul is referred to as working with herders, as his talent was the same, and not a tent-maker – see how easy it is to get conditioned to believe a certain way?

    If the Church had the message right then the results would be different – everything produces after its own kind – tradition only produces more tradition, and we all know what tradition does to the Word Of God, who is a Person, who is Jesus Christ.

    But hey, I used to be one hell of a believer, so there is hope…
    or as I heard recently, it is not so much what you believe that is is important but THAT YOU BELIEVE – and he who comes to God must believe THAT HE IS and that He is the rewarder of all who diligently seek to know Him. Ask Jesus – He is The Truth and The Word of God and as Paul said, “Have the Mind of Christ!”

    People successfully live their whole lives believing a lie until they die, but deep inside all of us is the knowledge of the Truth, the eternal SEED, which is Christ. You had no say in being born under sin, nor did you have any say in being made righteous. Do you have a say in choosing sin if you are a slave to it or righteousness if you be its captive? Captive to sin or captive to Christ? Oh wretched men…Jesus made sin His captive when He conquered it and death and the grave…

    Mix Voltaire and Whitefield and you have Free Will New Birth – is that enlightenment or awakening or just a lie to keep you from the kingdom until you die? The night before Whitefield died it appears that God spoke through him one line which contradicted his whole message – the next morning he was gone.

  55. It’s somewhere North of Spitsbergen – some Friggan woman runs it, apparently…

    In old Greece, people were taken into an ever narrowing, ever deepening underworld to induce trauma (fear) based mind control, a trick they and the Romans learned from the Etruscans, who were of the same lineage as the Spartans and Scythians – a bloodthirsty and murderous bunch, along with their Indo-Aryan progenitors, the Assyrians to whom slow fires and flaying people alive were good clean fun. (Abraham was an Amorite or Assyrian)

    I like to think we have progressed in our understanding of God and of His ways since then, but sometimes when the world goes all to hell, I am not so sure and feel that it is but a thin veneer of civilization which covers the multitude of sins, rather than the Love of God being made manifest.

    Now – is the Lake of Fire the death of death where all that is unlike God is consumed by fire? Paul spoke of giving one up to satan for the destruction of the flesh – John spoke of not praying for those who were sinning the sin unto death and James tells us what this is – lust, which begets sin, which begets death.

    We see that this man did repent and was “saved” from his sins and the congregation from the corrupting influence of his license.

    Jesus is waiting until His enemies be consecrated as the rug under His feet – and the last enemy is death.

    When I was first really confronted by Jesus over my concept of hell, I asked, in my inner Deilogue, “OK, so tell me, who goes to heaven and who to hell?”

    The answer was immediate, “Ian it is like this, all that is of Me returns to me, and all that is not, does not.” Sometime later I read, “For everything is of, for, by, and to Him – I saw in my minds eye Jesus grinning – He likes it when we start to “get it” – it means we are getting closer to actually knowing Him…ad His Ways…which are higher than our ways…our lower(ing) ways of scaring people witless with threats of hell…

    If you want a good breakdown of the devil’s operation, read the 13 action points of Communism – I will post them.

  56. “Tactics are those conscious deliberate acts by which human beings live with each other and deal with the world around them. … Here our concern is with the tactic of taking; how the Have-Nots can take power away from the Haves.” p.126

    Always remember the first rule of power tactics (pps.127-134):

    1. “Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have.”

    2. “Never go outside the expertise of your people. When an action or tactic is outside the experience of the people, the result is confusion, fear and retreat…. [and] the collapse of communication.

    3. “Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

    4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”

    5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.”

    6. “A good tactic is one your people enjoy.”

    7. “A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time….”

    8. “Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose.”

    9. “The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.”

    10. “The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign.”

    11. “If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside… every positive has its negative.”

    12. “The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.”

    13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and ‘frozen.’…

    “…any target can always say, ‘Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?’ When your ‘freeze the target,’ you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments…. Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the ‘others’ come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target…’

    “One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other.” (pps.127-134)

    Saul Alinksky, Rules for Radicals, Vintage Books, New York, 1989.

  57. So are you saying that all activism is wrong?

    Like the advent of unions as representatives of workers. Without which people would still be working 12 hour days for next to nothing to keep the rich rich.

    Or is it just particular causes which are wrong?

    You’re confusing activism wit communism.

    Martin Luther King was accused of being a communist.

    For Alinsky, organizing is the process of highlighting whatever he believed to be wrong and convincing people they can actually do something about it. The two are linked. If people feel they don’t have the power to change a situation, they stop thinking about it.
    According to Alinsky, the organizer — especially a paid organizer from outside — must first overcome suspicion and establish credibility. Next the organizer must begin the task of agitating: rubbing resentments, fanning hostilities, and searching out controversy. This is necessary to get people to participate. An organizer has to attack apathy and disturb the prevailing patterns of complacent community life where people have simply come to accept a situation. Alinsky would say, “The first step in community organization is community disorganization.”

    Through a process combining hope and resentment, the organizer tries to create a “mass army” that brings in as many recruits as possible from local organizations, churches, services groups, labor unions, corner gangs, and individuals.

    According to Alinsky, the main job of the organizer is to bait an opponent into reacting. “The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength.”[2]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals

  58. And just face it, Ian.

    If Christians actually cared about the poor there wouldn’t be any communism.

    Too often Christians and churches have sided with rich capitalist oppressors neglecting or adding to the misery of the poor.

    Not much is ever said about how bad that is.

  59. Btw Ian, Alinsky wasn’t a member of the Communist Party.

    He was however an activist for the poor. And instead of deriding him churches and Christians should consider his life in the context of Luke 1:52-53 instead of sitting on their arses while black Christians were racially segregated.

    52 “He has brought down rulers from their thrones,
    And has exalted those who were humble.
    53 “He has filled the hungry with good things;
    And sent away the rich empty-handed.

    Alinsky did not join political parties. When asked during an interview whether he ever considered becoming a Communist party member, he replied:

    “Not at any time. I’ve never joined any organization—not even the ones I’ve organized myself. I prize my own independence too much. And philosophically, I could never accept any rigid dogma or ideology, whether it’s Christianity or Marxism. One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as ‘that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you’re right.’ If you don’t have that, if you think you’ve got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide.[4”

    Alinsky’s own words, from his 1946 “Reveille for Radicals”,[14] capture his perspective, his motivation, and his style of engagement:

    A People’s Organization is a conflict group, [and] this must be openly and fully recognized. Its sole reason in coming into being is to wage war against all evils which cause suffering and unhappiness. A People’s Organization is the banding together of large numbers of men and women to fight for those rights which insure a decent way of life. . . .

    A People’s Organization is dedicated to an eternal war. It is a war against poverty, misery, delinquency, disease, injustice, hopelessness, despair, and unhappiness. They are basically the same issues for which nations have gone to war in almost every generation. . . . War is not an intellectual debate, and in the war against social evils there are no rules of fair play. . . .

    A People’s Organization lives in a world of hard reality. It lives in the midst of smashing forces, dashing struggles, sweeping cross-currents, ripping passions, conflict, confusion, seeming chaos, the hot and the cold, the squalor and the drama, which people prosaically refer to as life and students describe as ‘society’.

    Alinsky died of a sudden, massive heart attack in 1972, on a street corner in Carmel, California, at the age of 63. Two months previously, he discussed life after death in his interview with Playboy:[4]

    ALINSKY: … if there is an afterlife, and I have anything to say about it, I will unreservedly choose to go to hell.
    PLAYBOY: Why?
    ALINSKY: Hell would be heaven for me. All my life I’ve been with the have-nots. Over here, if you’re a have-not, you’re short of dough. If you’re a have-not in hell, you’re short of virtue. Once I get into hell, I’ll start organizing the have-nots over there.
    PLAYBOY: Why them?
    ALINSKY: They’re my kind of people.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky

  60. Just look who runs religion and who the protestant work ethic suits best – yes, the “need” for Communism was created by Christendom – but it is even more evolved and involved than that. First the Church was infected with a series of viruses disguised as virtues which subtly benefited and worked toward the industrial revolution and a rapidly expanding economy and knowledge base and subsequent urbanization.

    It is historic fact that Bolshevism was conceived, crafted and bankrolled by Jewish money men from the Lower East Side of New York – the likes of Jacob Schiff. It was not to save but to exploit.

    The art is to play both sides of the dynamic off against each other to ensure the outcomes are favorable. Divide and plunder.

    The modern Christian Church is thoroughly leavened by doctrines conceived in the same minds in which were conceived both Communism and Capitalism as a contrived contention aimed at eventual world domination by one race.

    Divide your enemies against themselves and they will destroy themselves while you pick up the pieces. Trouble is, this mob are the synagogue of satan, those who say that they are Jews and are not and do lie – and unfortunately all Jews are tarred with the same brush. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile – there is no particular race, just a human race.

    It is not so much that the Church has dropped the ball where care for the poor, widowed, orphaned and homeless, but rather that it is picked it up more in playing a game of caring rather than truly caring. If we truly cared we would realize that the reason why the poor are poor is in essence that the rich are rich – there is more than enough in the world for everyone’s need, but not enough to satisfy greed.

    I am a jeweler – I am presently negotiating the sale of a Ruby which is not going that well. I was wondering what was wrong, what this disturbance in the force was, when I heard to weigh or consider where the stone was from. Mozambique. It hit me that Mozambique is one of the particular countries targeted by AFRICOM and while its population is being systematically destroyed by AIDS and poverty, rich Westerners are buying their gems – in this case blood red Ruby.

    In Mozambique, Western Christian workers place pillows under the heads of a dying race, riddled with diseases contrived in the West and impoverished by both Marxists and Mammonites.

    This ruby was to me a watershed moment – it showed in stark contrast the fat, bloated businessman who is trying to bone me out over the stone and the bloated opportunists who plundered it from poor Africans in exchange for beads and blankets. It really hit me that the lion’s share of this wealth will end up in the West while Jesus picks up the pieces of broken lives in Mozambique.

    It is not down to what the Church does but what we all do at a personal level. Do we say no to that luxury and instead gift the money to missions? With our giving, my wife and I try to cut out the middle-men – it is wise too – many of them are just in it for the money and charity has become big business.

    We found after the quakes that if you gave money to Red Cross you might just as well as have put a match under it for all the good it did. It was a sham and a bad joke, so much so my wife stopped her contributions to Red Cross (I told her years ago it was basically a playground where people pretended that they cared).

    The fact of how much we in the West really care is seen in our degree of comfort – I get the distinct impression that God is going to show many of us what being poor, naked and hungry is all about, for if the Church really cared, there would be no poverty, but then Jesus did say that the poor would always be with us, and therefore we have no shortage of need to respond to.

    Trouble is we have become like the rich young fooler, secure in our lawful self-righteousness and comforts while all around us people suffer and die – this people serve me with their lips but their heart is far from Me.

  61. I suppose Bones you do not see Hillary, Bill and Barack as Communist either when they most assuredly are. Unions were a tactic too, that is why they are now largely toothless – it encouraged people to think that by organizing that they could make change happen – bu that is like saying 1000 modest chess players can together manage a Grandmaster – it is not a numbers game and as soon as it becomes one you are lost.

    It is merely LIGHT vs DARKNESS. Communism is the Luciferian religion in drag – but then so to is Capitalism – two sides of a contrived construct – a pot boiler to keep the useful idiots arguing over rights and wrongs. A side show. The old adage holds true – follow the money – who benefits? To me an activist is more like Micheal Parenti and the guys over at Third World Traveller, or perhaps the progressives who congregate at the Global Research watering hole. Both Communists and Capitalists, whether knowingly or unknowingly, essentially serve Satan aka Lucifer, but then so do his ministers in the Church appear as to be ministers of righteousness….by their fruit, by their fruit, by their fruit…you shall (should) know them – not will but SHALL!

    The real answer is Jesus and His gospel, His POWER. Light has come into the world but men prefer the darkness. It is for each of us to rally around the resurrection – and make faith in God the organizing principle of the Body. Looking outside of that is looking to darkness, no matter how light or good it may seem.

    Its kind of like it has gone too far and that is why we will have a New heaven and a New earth and why Jesus is coming back to clean house. Maranatha, Lord Jesus. In the mean time, occupy until He returns, and that means doing what James said – the works of faith. But of course if you are not looking for His appearing then what are you looking to? Your own organizational abilities? Mankind could not organize a booze up in brewery. Without Christ we are lost.

  62. Hey, if girls with big boobs work at Hooters, where do girls with only one leg work at? … IHOP …

  63. ian, not being rude or anything, but were you at some stage a jehovahs witness? all the talk about no hell. fact is we are spirits .now you just cant kill a spirit,whether its good or bad.so those who accept christ will spend eternity in his presence . those who reject christ will spent etenity without him (not a real nice place,wherever or whatever it may be) remember people will be taking themselves to that place cause they prefer darkness.god doesnt send them there. The reality of hell is not just a catholic thing, its actually quite scriptural. I guess another name you could use for hell could be gehenna it will kinda be like a rubbish tip that continually burns ,The new agers are really going for the no hell thing,be carefull.And its the love of god that should bring people to him,not so much the fear and reality of an eternity in hell. take care.pete.

  64. “Hey, if girls with big boobs work at Hooters, where do girls with only one leg work at? … IHOP …”

    So where do you work, EYES?

  65. “I guess another name you could use for hell could be gehenna”

    Actually if the biblical translators were honest they would have used gehenna instead of hell. Gehenna was a real place in the middle east. Like translating Jerusalem as heaven.

  66. Bones,
    Actually if the biblical translators were honest they would have used gehenna instead of hell.

    That’s a bit like saying if they were honest they would never have translated the New Testament from the Greek.

    Gehenna had more than one meaning.

    Amazing that you can so easily drop the allegorical or metaphorical sense of what is being said when you need to.

    It’s a shame you don’t stick to the original meaning of ‘gay’, then I could support your argument for gay marriage.

  67. Interesting aside…

    I checked the dictionary definition of ‘gay’ and now I find that ‘homosexual’ has superseded ‘lighthearted and carefree’ and ‘brightly coloured; showy’, yet it retains the concept of ‘gayer and gayest’!

    There is, of course, a more recent meaning, which has a negative connotation, directly connected to the idea of homosexuality being an aversion for some groups, so that ‘gay’ can mean, in more current colloquialism, ‘silly, perverse or queer’.

    So, although ‘Gehenna’ referred originally to the place, the Valley of Hinnom, where the fires of garbage were burnt and refuse was a perpetually filling the sky with the smoke of burning in the outer limits of Jerusalem, it also came to represent the very fires and refuse itself, and then the place of torment for those who were cast out of God’s presence, which Jesus not only confirms, but clearly points out as a recompense for unregenerate sinners should they refuse to repent.

    Words and meanings change and adapt to times and references, but shouldn’t changed as a matter of convenience to obscure their true meaning in Jesus’ day, since it is important to us to take heed of what He is saying to all generations, regardless of the way language evolves.

  68. Gehenna was the rubbish tip outside the city, in the valley of Hinnom, where a fire burned day and night and worms fed on trash near to the flames – so too the fire shall try EVERY man’s works of what they be – wood, hay, stubble, or gold, silver and precious gems, which means jewelers are closer to God? LOL.

    Metaphorically it refers to the place in Jewish mythology where those who die in their sins go to to get their garbage burned off – their issues dealt with. In Jewish tradition this process usually takes 3 months in earth time but as it is in the Spirit dimension, there is nor sense of time, as you are in timeless eternity.

    They hold that the longest sentence is never more than 11 months and only the absolute worst would ever go to 12 months, before being able to enter into God’s presence. Their concept of correction lines up with their liturgical year and feasts, which is why believing Jews are so assiduous in their keeping of the Covenant as they think that their salvation is dependent upon the keeping of the Law, rather than simply by the grace of God.

    Where a lot of Xians miss it is that the idea of being given grace is that you can then extend graciousness to others – its the 9 went their way rejoicing while one stayed to ask what the Lord would have him do deal – most just “get right with God” and conclude all is right with them – yeah, right.

    Our healing, our redemption, is for the health of the nations, as the salt of the earth, our works really do count for something and the more we work hand-in-hand with God, doing what we see the Father too, we become just like Him, mimicking as dear children our Father, becoming perfected in Love, mature in Love even as he is, fulfilling the ONE Commandment. Becoming just like our Dad. Doesn’t every boy want to be just like his dad? Are we not bound by nature to be just like our dad? Or are we to be just like our REAL FATHER in heaven? Don’t you know that you must be born from above? Where else could you have come from? The bit that comes out of the ground returns there – the tree of knowledge of good and evil – but the (tree of) Life is eternal, constant – it is Life – and it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us. We died in Him – He lives in us. But God is a multidimensional being whose breath can be in Pilate, Caiaphas, and the crucifiers and offer up His own Son, a sacrifice.

    If you don’t get that, you don’t get God. The whole Lamb is to be consumed, lest we be choice cut christians who leave out the guts of the covenant for the blessings and bounty – if you do not chow down on the whole sacrifice you will have no part in Me, so says He.

    The fire of I Cor 3 which will try our works is the same fiery indignation which strips back all pretense and exposes. One of the most chilling statements in the Bible is where Jesus commands that the worthless servant be cut in two and given his share with the hypocrites. But Paul assures us that God can cut off, burn with fire and then graft in again – for the thing which is impossible with men (salvation/redemption) is possible with God. You need the whole council of scripture and the Mind of Christ, otherwise confirmation bias will mean that we will hear what we want to and disregard the rest.

    And Bones, Alynsky was quoted as saying Lucifer was his hero as the ultimate rebel. Rebellion is as the sin of witch craft – Jesus never advocated rebellion – or drone attacks either – anyone who says they follow Jesus and then cause Hellfire missiles to come down out of heaven is just too far of the charts to even countenance being called Christian.

    You do not have to be member of the Communist Party to be a Commie, aka International Socialist. I have come to understand just how beguiling Commies are, especially those who have matured into Progressive Socialists. But at the heart of it is the worship of Lucifer/Satan, even though at the intellectual level it is all reason and rhetoric – it is a bit like your average Freemason would have no idea what goes on in the highest echelons of The Craft, just as your average Catholic or Anglican would be blithely unaware of what horrors have been practiced right under their noses.

    And as for homo’s, I guess buy their fruits, you shall know them…

    The illustration I show young people is to use power leads and plugs – that two male nor two female plugs enable true connection and power flow. And for the record, a lead with two male plugs is called a suicide lead and one with two female is called useless. 0(:->)

  69. AS to our works, James said our faith would be evident and qualified/witnessed/reinforced by them. One the eve of his death, George Whitefield was preaching on the inadequacy and works for salvation compared to grace, when suddenly he boomed out with a loud voice, “A man gets to heaven by his works”. I tend to think that the prophetic voice meant by HIS (Jesus) works, but to me it also infers that our works, ye, even our greater works, are what get us to the heaven dimension, to the kingdom on earth experience where we do the works of grace and of God, or as Jesus said to me, “Ian. it is not about getting people to heaven, that is My job, your job is to get heaven to people.”

    We are co-workers, and must needs be work out our salvation, pressing on toward the MARK of our high calling, forsaking the mark (ambition) of the Beast. All the while realizing that what is sown in the flesh is reaped through the labor pains of the flesh – the SEED which was sown in you comes forth and bears fruit through much adversity, trial, affliction, and persecution – if they hate the Master, they hate the servant.

    And no Peter Adams, I have never been a JW. Anything exclusive to me is anathema, as I am sure that it is to God. You seem like a decent chap, so I will offer you my “faith challenge”. Very few are actually keen enough to take me on on this wise as it usually means having your wood, hay and stubble consumed before your very eyes. But if you are up for it, I will covenant with you to accept whatever correction to our doctrines, attitudes, information are necessary and that in the name of Jesus we agree that whosoever may be wrong might be suitably corrected by the Holy Spirit of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Agreed?

  70. So the Lake of Fire is an allegory for what?

    I guess since y’all say there’s no devil or demons there’s no need for the Lake of Fire.

    But the allegory means…what?

    Sounds like you’re preaching universalism to me.

  71. always willing to be corrected by the Holy Spirit at the same time i will be wary of what man says cause the scripture says much learning can make you nuts.not to be coenfusd with someone who gets revalation by the Holy Spirit himself.pete

  72. Accept of course your word play, Steve, is that if Jesus used the word gay 2000 years ago he would be referring to gay not lighthearted and carefree.

    Your placing your interpretation on what Jesus is saying. An interpretation largely borne out by the Medieval Catholic Church.

  73. Ian, I don’t care if Alinsky was a satan worshipper with 666 tattooed on his butt.

    He did a whole lot more for the poor and justice than a lot of Christians or churches have done.

    That’s why Christians hate him.

  74. “So the Lake of Fire is an allegory for what?”

    Dunno. but Hades and death get thrown into it according to Revelation 20.

    Not quite sure how those two things can be thrown into a lake of fire.

    That seems pretty allegorical. It means the end of death – Hades the place of the dead and death itself – which is a state of being not an entity.

    I’m sure you’ll find a semiliteralistic metaphor there though.

  75. “death itself – which is a state of being not an entity.”

    Actually death is a non-entity. It’s the absence of life a state of non-being.

  76. Yes Bones, simply put, it is the death of death, and death is the last enemy. So, it’s death to death. I do not preach Universalism, nor any “ism” other than Baptism. I hate ‘isms’ and I strongly suspect God does too.

    What about Jesus and Obama? Jesus is sometimes cast in the role of anti-establishment hero, a la Robin Hood, for turning over the money changers tables, and lambasting the rich young rulers and money hungry Pharisees in the same breath – but we are assured that everything Jesus ever did was motivated by Love and totally pleasing to the Father. Jesus did not lash out at Rome, but at the hypocritical Pharisees – and that to chastise them with the Rod of Correction, His unbreakable Word, the Sword of the Spirit, metaphorically speaking. Jesus knew what the New Leaven would do to Rome – it was the Pharisees he got stuck into.

    He said to me a while back, “Don’t make mechanisms out of metaphors and systems out of similes.” They are word pictures, not Icons.

    As to the eternal Spirit, ask God to show you a human spirit, and what it really looks like in the Spirit. Ask Him to show you the hidden man of the heart. Ecclesiastes says that when a man dies, his body returns to the ground from whence it came and his spirit returns to God who gave it. The Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword – God’s Word divides – sheep from goat, spirit from flesh. That part of you that you hate so much? God hates it too. He will take care of it. It is simply for us to place our lives in His hands, they are there anyway!

    Most of the Churches concept of hell comes from fire and brimstone preachers who frightened people into the kingdom with threats of eternal damnation. Personally I think that they were probably the victims of child abuse trauma who became preachers, and some probably abusers too.

    When I was seven years old, an aging minister who took Scripture in schools told me of a loving heavenly Father who loved us so much He gave His Son for us and that He was not mad at Man and wanted us to know Him in a personally way. Something in me recognized what the man was saying, I saw in him God made manifest, such was his obvious love for children, he was manifesting the sort of father image I knew I lacked. At that time I got “saved” – faith came by the hearing, and the hearing came by the Word – deep calls to deep – witness to witness.

    Then later came puberty, girls, hormones and hatreds, and hellish experiences which scared me back to a God I had been encouraged by teachers particularly and siblings and peers to deny, until the undeniable became undeniably obvious.

    Then later came the unlearning of all the heavy weights and binding burdens imposed by ever Pharisee I encountered until I came back to that image from my childhood of a loving Father and the realization why people come to believe in hell has a lot more to do with their own hellish childhood experiences and dysfunctional fathers who do not manifest a FATHER image of love as they themselves bore their own father’s sins. If you want to see the Father see the Son.

    Jesus is just like His Father, or at least that’s what His mother said.

    0(:->)

  77. so if any of you guys dont believe in going to church, 1.chances are you used to go but you got offended and havent dealt with it yet 2.you figured that there were hippocrites there and use that as an excuse not to go 3,you figured that there were heresies there so thought youd play it safe and stay away 4.you have “secret” revelation that tells you that the churches are “wrong” or”whores” or whatever, so best to stay away.5.you found a secret “minority” that think the way you do and dont feel compfortable “outside” that circle 6.you are just “too far ahead in learning or knowledge) to stay in a church with all those who “dont hear from god”and are being “deceived” unlearned, etc,etc.7 you play on a computer all day knocking gods church and giving your expert advice and call that church.
    Now the real truth is god loves everyone in those churches and (if they truly love him) are called “HIS CHURCH” sure there will be some mistakes,just as there is in some of your opinions, doctrines,
    interperatations etc.(churches are like a hospital for sinners) unless you happen to be perfect . are you fellowshipping more often with ALL the people that make up his church.are you sharing gods love and redemtion in the streets today,have you truly prayed today for the lost and hurting , when we knock the church we are knocking ourselves too,unless you consider yourself not to be a member?
    i travel a lot and visit a lot of different churces and my wife and i find that if you allow god to be your main focus at any of those”churches” that he will speak to you (my sheep hear my voice) and you will walk away refreshed and blessed to have met more of gods children.
    So you think you are “playing it safe” just where you are now.
    I truly dont see the true peace of god on some of you guys, and cant see you coming into true unity with the “true” body of christ unless theres a big turn around (with repentance), seems like a lot that ive read so far is actually stuff that has come from history books private interperatations etc (which are fallible}
    Once again ,are the churches perfect ao have they got it all together—-NO they are just like you and me.
    Do yourself a favour go to a church tommorow and focus on gods love for you and all the people sitting there,and press in to touch his heart then you may go away knowing that they are just as special as you. love you all.pete
    PS.sorry but peoples big names, words, ,etc dont do a lot for me.

  78. Peter, my family and I regularly go to church. I have friends and family in all sorts of churches from Catholic, Anglican, Uniting to Pentecostal. I’ve studied for the ministry and worked in churches.

    Doesn’t stop me from doing my own study of the scriptures.

    Is hell an important Christian doctrine for you?

    Churches are based on interpretations btw. That’s why there’s so many of them.

    Also churches aren’t beyond criticism.

    History shows that churches have been involved in horrible things.

    “just as there is in some of your opinions, doctrines,
    interperatations”

    You see unlike most Christians, I won’t say my opinion and interpretation is the same as God’s. Cause I know I can be wrong.

  79. god will give u the desires of your heart.ask him sincerly to take you on a guided tour. and see what happens.no the hell thing is no big deal in my walk with jesus but it would be for those.who dont want anything to do with him.regards pete

  80. Jesus did not lash out at Rome, but at the hypocritical Pharisees

    He did. However if He criticised Rome He wouldn’t have lasted as long as He did and would be just another martyred zealot. To take Jesus’s silence on Rome as tacit approval of dictatorships, political systems and idolatry is reading too much into it. And what was Simon the Zealot doing in his party.

    The prophets are clear in the need to stand up for the poor and against injustice.

    Look at it this way, Christians shout very loudly against abortion and immorality but not against oppression of minorities and unjust political structures.

  81. ” but it would be for those.who dont want anything to do with him.”

    Still scaring people into heaven, Pete.

    In these days of the internet there really is no excuse for ignorance.

  82. Peter, you mentioned unity in the Body of Christ. There are people who don’t attend the same church regularly who know more about unity in the Body of Christ than some who start their own church and wouldn’t allow their members to visit another church.

  83. i know what your saying.many pastors would have their congregation go to a combined christmas carols night once a year and think that was real unity in the body of christ. nicolaitians.—nico (to conquer or rule over) lait (the people) unfortunately i think many pastors are still worried about sheep stealing .i wish when their not preaching themselves that they would go up the back and sit with some of the “common folk” anyway , in these last days i think there will be a big turn against all the religious crap weve had to put up with,like cursed if you dont tithe etc

  84. “Do you think there are unjust political structures in Australia, Bones?”

    We are truly blessed to have a strong union movement as well as a fairly strong welfare system, though some hate that and would like to take that away. Our poor can access free medical treatment (mostly – though apparently that’s bad according to US Christians) and even university education is funded. Part of that is we have a fairly egalitarian society.

    There are issues in the Aboriginal communities as well as immigration especially the way that boat people and refugees have become political footballs.

    There are laws that favour the rich.

    In Newcastle, tradies haven’t been paid by billionaire Nathan Tinkler for 2 years because he contracts them through $2 companies and they don’t have the money like the big boys to take him to court.

    I sponsor families from around the world cos I know they are heaps worse off than people over here.

  85. Bones, (defining the allegorical substance of the Lake of Fire),
    Dunno

    Quite!

    Actually death is a non-entity. It’s the absence of life a state of non-being.

    So no resurrection of the dead for judgment then?

    And Paul was wrong when he said for him to live is Christ and to die is gain?

    How would it be gain if he became a non-entity?

    What does Paul mean by ‘sleeping in Christ’?

    How will fallen angels become ‘non-entities’?

    Revelation 20
    5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    How are ‘non-entities’ raised?

    Revelation 20
    10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    In fact Death and Hades – Death and the Grave – ‘gave up the dead who were in it’, so you have misinterpreted this passage from the outset.

    Death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire, and it is called the ‘second death’. If the first were so complete and created ‘non-entities’ why is there a need for a second?

    And this – ‘anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire’ – seems pretty clear cut to me.

  86. Steve, death is an abstract noun, like love. Can you physically kill love, bravery, ideas, evil, faith, freedom, justice, death?

    Not to mention how Hades, which is where exactly, is going to be thrown into a Lake of Fire.

    And did I not say that the author was saying that death would end.

    Yet again, you want to take literally select parts of a highly allegorical and apocalyptic book.

  87. “ Hey, if girls with big boobs work at Hooters, where do girls with only one leg work at? … IHOP …”
    So where do you work, EYES? ”

    ‘ Specsavers ‘

    Song of Songs 8:7
    New International Version (NIV)
    7 Many waters cannot quench love;
    rivers cannot sweep it away.
    If one were to give
    all the wealth of one’s house for love,
    it[a] would be utterly scorned.

    Revelation 20 – IVP New Testament Commentaries

    Resources » Commentaries » Revelation » Chapter 20 » exegesis
    View Revelation 20:12-15

    The Judgment of the Dead

    John goes on to describe a universal judgment on the dead, great and small (v. 12). These dead must be “the rest of the dead” (v. 5) who did not come alive to reign with Christ in “the first resurrection.” Consequently they are not “blessed and holy” nor immune to “the second death” (v. 6). After books are opened, and above all the book of life, the dead are judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books (v. 12). As to the distinction between the plural books, or “scrolls,” not mentioned before in the Revelation (see Dan 7:10) and the singular “book of life” (see Rev 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 21:27), Beckwith comments, “The former contain the record of . . . deeds, whether good or bad, which form the ground for judgment; the latter contains the list of those destined for life. There is no incongruity between the two ideas, for the deeds determine whether names are inserted in the book of life” (1922:748).

    But things are not quite that simple. Names cannot be “inserted” in the book of life, for every name was either written or not written there “from the creation of the world” (13:8; 17:8). Salvation to John is by divine election, grounded in the mystery of God’s grace. At the same time, salvation is the outcome, if not the reward, of good works (“I know your deeds,” 2:2, 5, 19, 23, 26; 3:1, 8, 15; “for their deeds will follow them,” 14:12). John made no attempt to reconcile the two ideas, probably because (like most apocalyptic writers) he saw no conflict between them. It was Paul who taught us to see the conflict, and Paul’s classic solution–that good works are the outward evidence of divine grace–is the solution most Christians have adopted and the one John probably would have adopted too, had he seen the problem.

    The striking thing about this judgment according to deeds, or works, is that John does not mention any among the dead whose works were found acceptable to God. He tells us only that if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire (v. 15). His terse language leaves many questions unanswered. Were the martyred saints who reigned a thousand years the only ones redeemed? Did the rest of the dead come to life only to die again in the lake of fire? Was anyone on earth redeemed during the thousand years? If not, what was the millennium’s purpose? What about the prophets and saints of the Hebrew Bible? Are they raised to life in John’s scenario? If so, is it before or after the thousand years? John answers none of these questions because he is recording a single vision with a single purpose, not providing a blueprint for the history of human salvation. His emphasis is on judgment here, not salvation: those whose names are not written in the book of life will not live. They will die forever in the lake of fire. John has already told us who they are: “the inhabitants of the earth” who worshiped the beast and the dragon (13:8; 17:8). Now that the beast and false prophet and the dragon are in the lake of fire (v. 10), their followers must inevitably join them there.

    Yet even the second death, or the lake of fire (v. 14) has its positive side. It is not made first of all for human beings, but for supernatural entities and institutions that oppress human beings–Babylon implicitly (17:16; 18:9-10; 19:3), and the beast, the false prophet and the dragon explicitly. It is, as Jesus said, “prepared for the devil and his angels” (Mt 25:41). More important, the lake of fire swallows up death and Hades (compare Is 25:8; 1 Cor 15:54). After the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and after all the dead were judged, says John, death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire (vv. 13-14).

    This is all very confusing for modern Christians who were taught that “Hades” is a biblical word for hell (see the KJV “death and hell were cast into the lake of fire”) and that “hell” in the book of Revelation is itself the lake of fire. How can hell be thrown into hell? The eighteenth-century Welsh hymn writer, William Williams, captured the meaning in the third verse of his great hymn, “Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah”:

    When I tread the verge of Jordan,

    Bid my anxious fears subside;

    Death of death, and hell’s destruction,

    Land me safe on Canaan’s side.

    Quite a number of hymnals, unable to make sense of Williams’s bold imagery, substituted “bear me through the swelling current” for the third line. But Williams himself saw clearly that the “death of death and hell’s destruction” described in Revelation 20:14 is what opens the way for new life and salvation in chapter 21. The confusion stems from the fact that “Hades” is not “hell” as understood in Christian tradition, but the grave, corresponding to “Sheol” in the Hebrew Bible. It is never mentioned by itself in the book of Revelation, but only as the companion of “Death” (see, for example, 6:8). When John says that death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them (v. 13), he means the graves were opened and the dead were raised. This is the language of resurrection, the “second” resurrection if you like, corresponding to “the first resurrection” of verse 6. But instead of “the second resurrection” he calls it “the second death” (v. 14), for two reasons: (1) because his emphasis is not on being raised to life but on being raised only to die again in the lake of fire; and (2) because it is the death of death itself, and of death’s grim companion, the grave.

    The notion that death and the grave are thrown into the lake of fire characterizes the lake here not as a place of torment (contrast 19:21 and 20:10), but as a place of destruction or nonexistence. Death and Hades are not tortured or punished, they simply cease to exist. The message of this vivid scene is a simple one: “there will be no more death” (21:4). In Paul’s words, “Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” (1 Cor 15:54-55). The way is cleared for the triumphant visions of chapters 21-22.

  88. I think you need to read it through, carefully, and prayerfully, so that you actually grasp what it says, because you are grossly mistaken if you think it has no significance to us, or that it is dealing with some abstract notion and not with the reality of judgment.

    Even a sound reading the passage I quoted would tell you it means far more than you are claiming.

    It is not ‘highly allegorical’, as you claim, although it has typical elements to it, and ‘apocalyptic’ merely means, in an actual interpretation of the Greek, ‘revealed’, hence the title, ‘Revelation’, which to the person who is unable to determine the truths contained in it, is a complete paradox, but to those who treat it literally unless it is obviously prophetic, allegorical or predictive, it is extremely simple to grasp the main thrust of what is being said.

    There are, of course, some details which are becoming more accessible to us, since it is predictive of the then future, and some has been fulfilled whilst other parts have yet to take place, such as the outpouring of God’s Wrath, the Judgment, the Resurrection of the living and dead, and the coming of the New Heavens, New Jerusalem and New Earth.

    Your dismissal of Revelation and the judgment prophecy as fantasy is merely an obscuration of the evidence which demonstrates your unlikely inference of what death entails for either the sinner or the saint.

    Again, the changing of words with time confuses some of the issues, with apocalyptic being changed in a modern sense to mean doomsday scenes, rather than revealed knowledge, or revelation of a mystery, as it is in the case of Revelation, which, when read and studied with thought and attention, can reveal much about what is to take place, and how we should prepare.

  89. Eyes,
    it would be helpful f you would quote your sources so we can tell what you have written and what you are quoting from.

    I take it you last comment was word for word from IVP New Testament Commentary.

    It seems, at first read, to be a Reformed perspective, which means our conversation has now swung rom the liberal to the ultra literal in a few strokes of the spread, which is OK, but a Reformed interpretation is just as dodgy as a liberal translation.

  90. http://www.gty.org/resources/bible-introductions/MSB66/revelation

    LOL,’ STEVE’ , ever heard of copy and paste!

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ
    MSB66
    PDFPrintEmail

    Title

    Unlike most books of the Bible, Revelation contains its own title: “The Revelation of Jesus Christ” (1:1). “Revelation” (Gr., apokalupsis) means “an uncovering,” “an unveiling,” or “a disclosure.” In the NT, this word describes the unveiling of spiritual truth (Rom. 16:25; Gal. 1:12; Eph. 1:17; 3:3), the revealing of the sons of God (Rom. 8:19), Christ’s incarnation (Luke 2:32), and His glorious appearing at His second coming (2 Thess. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:7). In all its uses, “revelation” refers to something or someone, once hidden, becoming visible. What this book reveals or unveils is Jesus Christ in glory. Truths about Him and His final victory, that the rest of Scripture merely allude to, become clearly visible through revelation about Jesus Christ (see Historical and Theological Themes). This revelation was given to Him by God the Father, and it was communicated to the Apostle John by an angel (1:1).

  91. Of course I’ve heard of copy and paste, Eyes. That’s the point.

    If you make a comment which is your own opinion that is fine, but if you quote, at length, another source then it is generally considered polite and helpful to relate the source.

    It was clear to me that the structure of the commentary was probably not your own, but you did not quote your source. I’m asking if you would be kind enough to do so in future where possible.

  92. Anyway, thank you, Eyes, for the details.

    I should add that you don’t have to put steve in inverted commas. It is my actual name!

    I take it, though, that you view things from a Reformed perspective, or Calvinistic.

  93. DEAR COPY AND PASTE,

    Sorry Steve, (without inverted commas.)

    I was just under the impression that if one wanted to find a source of a posted comment , then one should just copy and paste the entire comment into the best search engine, or equivalent!?!?!

  94. ““ Hey, if girls with big boobs work at Hooters, where do girls with only one leg work at? … IHOP …”
    So where do you work, EYES? ”

    ‘ Specsavers ‘”

    Haha.

    Eye-eye.

    Good one.

  95. I don’t think you should make your readers have to search all your comments like that, Eyes. That seems unkind when you already know the source of your commentary and it’s not a big deal to cut’n’paste the source for the person you are addressing.

  96. Bones,
    How can death and Hades be thrown into a lake of fire?

    The same way heaven can be in our midst. It’s not about the name of the place, but who is in the place, and what the place represents for those who inhabit it.

    There is no grave without the dead, and no dead without death.

    Are you saying that Jesus became a non-entity on the cross? If so, how did the non-entity who is Christ come to be raised from the nonentity condition?

    How did the nonentity Christ preach to the spirit in prison after he became a nonentity, and how could those spirits be spirits, or captivity led captive if they were nonentities?

  97. “Are you saying that Jesus became a non-entity on the cross?”

    Have no idea what you’re talking about there.

    Christ is an entity, a being whether spiritual or physical, whether living or dead.

    My parents are beings though dead.

    Death is not a being or entity unless you mean this dude

  98. Bones,
    You know that many people do dunny deaths?
    But i could not give a shit right now, so, HA HA HA AH HA he he he he he he he he he he he he he !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Good one Bonesey!

  99. Your own words, Bones:

    Actually death is a non-entity. It’s the absence of life a state of non-being.

    https://signposts02.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/burning-australia-and-ywam-with-the-ihop-cult/#comment-40860

    Did not Jesus die on the cross? Then, by your definition, he entered the state of being a nonentity, which you attribute to death, even if you call death itself a nonentity, it must follow that those who enter it have that attribute, since, in an abstract way it does not exist, and so, neither, then, do they.

    He became a non-being.

    How is a non-being raised?

    Eyes,
    I’m very sorry, I didn’t realise I was talking to a nine year old. Do you still like children’s books with farty jokes?

  100. “Then, by your definition, he entered the state of being a nonentity, which you attribute to death, even if you call death itself a nonentity, it must follow that those who enter it have that attribute, since, in an abstract way it does not exist, and so, neither, then, do they.”

    Ummm no. When I die I stop living. You can still find my remains even thousands of years time. They’re still my physical body. That’s my bones. Like we can talk about Tutankamen’s remains. That is still him.

    Revelation talks about a physical destruction of a non-physical ie abstract concept in a lake of fire.

    Can you destroy jealousy in a lake of fire?

  101. “Eyes,
    I’m very sorry, I didn’t realise I was talking to a nine year old. Do you still like children’s books with farty jokes?”

    Haha. I love this episode. So do my kids. It’s for you EYES. You legend.

    Please forgive Steve. He doesn’t mix with adults much.

  102. ” Eyes,
    I’m very sorry, I didn’t realise I was talking to a nine year old. Do you still like children’s books with farty jokes? ”

    Steve, do you know how much of an Honour it is to be referred to as youngster when you are in fact older?
    Just remember when you were a young little tacka, that was when you loved to be presumed as older, right , we all did!
    Thank you for your uplifting comment!

  103. OK, we’re talking to children. That’s OK. Makes it easier.

    Read carefully, Bones…

    Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

    And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

    The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

    Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    It was not only Death and the Grave which were cast into the lake of fire, was it?

    Can you see anything else which was cast into the lake of fire?

    Did you see anyone small and great, standing before God? What were they called?

    Did Death and the Grave deliver anything up for judgment? What were they called?

  104. Steve, you’re not at church preaching to your adoring throng (who are probably less than 9 years old in maturity).

    I’ll type this slowly so you understand it.

    Death is a concept, a state of non-being, an abstract noun. Can you destroy any of the following in a lake of fire?

  105. Bones,
    Death is a concept

    A concept? So it is not a reality? I’m not talking about a dictionary definition or a grammar lesson, I’m talking about what happens to people when their soul leaves their body.

    No. Death is the reward for sin. The wages of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal life.

    By your definition you make life an abstraction. You declare life to be a concept, and yet it is as much a reality as death.

    So, back to the scripture you are attempting to bend to your own concepts.

    It is not only Death and the Grave which are cast into the lake of fire. Those who go through the second death are also cast their. As are the false prophet and the bast, and the devil and his minions.

    The dead are cast into the lake of fire. Therefore the grave, which is the place of the dead, and death itself which is the state of being dead, is cast into the fire as they are. The lake of fire has a significance.

    It doesn’t mean non-existence if fire is involved. How could it. Why would Jesus mention a lake of fire if death was merely the non-existence, or a nonentity?

    You are playing around with semantics to skirt the issue again.

    You are circumventing the questions I have asked you by asking irrelevant questions about abstractions which have nothing to do with the subject in hand.

    The people who are not found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire. This seems to me to be the reward for rejecting God, and for dying in their sin, the wages of sin.

    What then is the allegorical interpretation of the sinner being cast into the lake of fire, according to your concept, and why did Jesus bother with telling us this if death is merely the absence of being?

  106. Bones – the article was very thought provoking and I will have to read it again as there were sticking points which I would like to ruminate upon and seek understanding on. 90% of what he says I pretty much concur with.

    Such exegesis is fascinating but can be a trap. I remember reading an in depth analysis of the scripture “Be hot or be cold, if you are lukewarm I will spew or spit you out of my mouth.” It was a very compelling exegesis about what hot, cold and lukewarm meant and it had obviously been extensively researched, and seemed to hold water until I read the Aramaic of the text which translates as “I will give you of My mouth, or, I will have words with you.”

    (If you have ever had Jesus have “WORDS” with you, you will witness with this.)

    I do know however that we are to know no man after the flesh – we are to have the Mind of Christ and see them as He does, complete and entire, lacking nothing – that is His vision for you.

    I also know that we are to pray for our enemies. I once had a competitor in business who was maligning me as I was taking so much business from him. I asked what to do and heard, “Pray for his prosperity – if he is too busy working he won’t have time to worry about you” – besides, prosperity is a snare (I Tim 6).

    Part of what Jesus was saying about not resisting evil is kind of like the other side of not praying for people who are pursuing the path of the Prodigal, the lure of lust, as they need to come to the end of themselves and trying to rescue people from the consequences of their own sin is risking being an amateur providence – a rescuer caught up in the Persecutor, Victim Rescuer triangle.

    The essence of what Jesus preached was to trust in God as our Paternal protector/provider. He also told His disciples that when they saw certain signs in Jerusalem to get the hell out of it. So, what was that about passivity? Tell that to Corrie ten Boom when you get to heaven.

    We are RESISTANCE FIGHTERS, yes, but the first and only battle we fight is that within – and the weapons of our struggle are not of the flesh – if your house is in order, then your world is in order – the only reason why the world is at it is, is that on the whole, or predominantly, Mankind prefers darkness, lest their WORKS be brought into the LIGHT to see of what they are made – wood, hay, stubble, or gold, silver and precious gems?

    Resistance generates heat, and that heat burns up your pride. The FLESH LUSTS AFTER THE SPIRIT, and THE SPIRIT RESISTS THE FLESH! We are Ambassadors of grace, of heaven, and ought walk in the protection and power of the Ambassador, being representatives of a kingdom – but we also reign a kings in Life by ONE, Christ Jesus. And we are co-workers together with Him – kingdom on earth collaborators.

    If you walk in the Power of the resurrection it is amazing what Power is available, but if you develop strategies and tactics then you taking the devil on at his own game, and you will lose. Get the plan from God and then act it out – simple – and if you don’t rightly know what to do, do what you know to be right. The real Power in the world is the Prophetic Voice of the Word of God in Power – it is when men and woman of prayer and close relationship with the Father speak His will into being. Where the danger is with passivity is that you do not get your instructions from on high but act according to fear.

    I have seen the Power of God’s indignation at work and what it can do – the principle problem with the militant church is that they do not know their true weaponry, misread their scriptures (with ample assistance) and so are largely impotent against Satan. Since the Enlightenment Mankind on the whole has gotten progressively more selfish, egotistical and apostate. The tipping point of this exponential ignorance of God is soon to be reached, just as it in the economy and the two are going to crash fro the self-same reason.

    Then the ones who will stand will be those who have given their lives to Jesus and who have their lamps filled and trimmed, who are prepared for what is coming – the rest will starve and look about for someone to blame, but it is not about who to blame but who to NAME! Some years back the lord told me that He would develop in His elect the faith to believe for miracle provision in the face of starvation, of financial miracles in the face of 90% taxation, to literally find the gold in a fishes mouth.

    A while back, I was saying to a Christian lady that Jesus said in effect that the reason why the poor are poor is that the rich in this world’s good are rich – they have not only their fair share but that of many others, usually gained by “lawful” means, or using the Law to your own advantage, while overlooking the weightier matters of the Law.

    She rebutted me with “But Jesus said that you will always have the poor with you”.

    “Ah yes”, said I, “That simply means that you will never lack for opportunity to help the poor, as due to the fact that the rich are greedy and that this generation will not cease until Jesus returns, it means that the poor will always be with you and that until He comes to wipe away the tears from their eyes, it is YOUR JOB TO DO IT.”

    It is is for us to be Jesus to the poor and needy, but it is not for us to judge the greedy – they judge themselves and their recompense is sure – all I am longing for is my One Denarius and The Door.

    Watch out for Robin Hood syndrome – it is a snare.

    0(:->)

  107. “Be hot or be cold, if you are lukewarm I will spew or spit you out of my mouth.”

    To me this rings ,
    Not quite there, don’t know if i wanna be.
    Or that righteousness comes from God and is by faith in Christ but i must also believe in something else.
    Getting warmer but haven’t quite found the hot spot.
    Or, ‘Wanna go through the narrow gate but i’m gunna bring a few other keys just in case”.

  108. “You are playing around with semantics to skirt the issue again.”

    No, you are the one skirting the issue.

    You keep deflecting to the poor souls who aren’t in the Book of Life. I’m talking about Death itself and Hades being thrown into a lake of fire.

    Something which isn’t tangible is going to be thrown into a lake of fire as well as Hades = a spiritual place at best.

    Obviously allegorial to anyone reading the text.

  109. “Watch out for Robin Hood syndrome – it is a snare.”

    Actually Churches have by and large suffered from Sheriff of Nottingham Syndrome – take from the poor.

  110. “Be hot or be cold, if you are lukewarm I will spew or spit you out of my mouth.”

    Steve of course will take that literally. God will be spitting a heap of traditional Christians according to Steve.

  111. The last church i went to had all kinds of ism and ology issues, including Friar Tuckery.Everything was based on stuffing ya face.
    They even found it hard to find someone to clean the little john.
    No shit!

  112. Bones,
    Something which isn’t tangible is going to be thrown into a lake of fire as well as Hades = a spiritual place at best.

    Semantics.

    Souls are more important than anything, and besides, as I explained, there is no death or grave without people. It’s all about people. Always has been.

  113. Bones the Church was always part of the establishment – as in King. Queen, Bishop, Knight etc – whereas the Body is eternal, not made with hands.

    As to the books that shall be opened, God told me about 11yrs ago that I had three books in me that needed to “come out”. I thought that He meant I was to write three books, but felt a check and felt that when I was ready it would all flow.

    Some months ago, I heard another say that God had told her that she had a “book” in her that needed to come out. This got me asking Him what this was and why I had no compunction to write books even though I was being urged to by others – I felt something was missing, then the penny dropped – the books He was talking about are our inner accounts – the BOOKS or ACCOUNTS we keep and which keep us and this is why they need to “come out”.

    Only the faith of Jesus can reconcile our accounts for us – lest we hold our fellow servants in debt. The process of releasing debt is an intriguing one – most Xian’s have no idea just how much they keep accounts on folk – it takes the Spirit of God to goad us toward the light so that our books may be brought into the light and we may release all debtors to the flesh – that we might know them after the Spirit.

    The books which were in me concerned others, my family and my immediate family – three sets of accounts. We are getting there..one is cleared completely, and two still have a ways to go – let’s face it folks, it is about that uncomfortable word many modern Xians avoid – conversion! Let’s just invite Jesus into our God shaped hole so we can be “saved”. Yeah, right.

    This is from the VA Araramaic Version – I especially love vs 19.

    14. And to the angel of the church of Laodicia, write: These are [the things that] says:

    The Amen, the Witness, the Faithful, the Truth, the Head (Chief) of God’s creation:

    15. I know of your works that are neither hot nor cold. Wish you were cold or hot.
    16. [But] since they are (you have) lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I am preparing to reprimand you (Give you of My mouth).
    17. For you say that you are rich and getting richer, and you have no need of anything; but, you do not know that you are confused, demonic, blind and barren.
    18. I advise you to buy from me gold that is forged in fire, that which [truly] enriches, and white clothing to dress you up, and [so as] the shame of your nakedness is not seen [by everyone,] and rub ointment [over] your eyes, so as you may see.
    19. To whomever I am merciful I redress and reprove (cloth and approve). Thus, bear [my advice] and repent.

    20. Behold, I am before the door knocking.
    If a human [being] hears my sound
    …and opens the door,
    I shall enter to them and dine with them
    …and they with me.
    21. And the victor
    …shall be given to be seated with me
    On my throne (chair),
    …just as I was victorious
    And sat with my Father on His throne.
    22…Whoever has ears,
    Should listen to what the Spirit
    …is telling the churches.

  114. “Semantics.”

    I’ll take it that you agree that throwing Death and Hades into a lake of fire is allegorical for the end of death which is the point the writer is making.

  115. This confirms it:

    I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

    Death and Hades are horsemen. Also note the nod to the martyrs who died by sword and wild beasts. Therefore according to the writer they are beings.

    That has to be allegorical.

  116. Well reasoned Bones – great point – glory to God – now is this event yet to be or already done? Note Death and Hades were GIVEN POWER – just as the kings of the earth give their kingship (power) to the Beast.

    Lovey-dovey comfort cravers will find out the hard way when persecution and affliction arise for the Word’s sake.

    Last night I wandered out on to the back deck at 11:30 to take in the night sky and some fresh air. There above us was the most bizarre chemtrail/chemcloud I had ever seen – even my wife said WOW and she is pretty hard to prove anything to about such things being by nature very cautious as to what she ascribes to. It was literally like a sign in the heavens. It looked like something straight out of Weta Workshop special FX – like a scene from a sci-fi movie. Within 15 minutes it had dissipated into clouds.

    There is something very big coming – it is called World Government, World Finance and World Religion – the Fasco-Communist Superstate of the NWO. Check those lamps virgins, and stay away from the (snake) oil salesmen.

    By the way – I believe that scripture teaches the ultimate reconciliation of all things to God, and not the greasy grace of Universalism. Universalism borrows from Ultimate Reconciliation as do most doctrinal positions borrow from the Truth but add theri own riders – like Calvin did with predestination, concluding that if some are predestined to grace that dipso-facto (sic) some are predestined to eternal torment.

    I also believe that God pretty much gets things done in spite of us rather than because of us – and I kind of think that He always has things pretty much in control – and it is we who do not see the intricacies of His moving, nor truly encompass the sheer scope of His Power and Mind. And He is pleased to call us His dear children – just think on that awhile – it is pretty amazing.

  117. “They were given power over a fourth of the earth…”

    But why a quarter of the earth.

    What’s the point the writer’s trying to make here?

  118. The answer to that is really quite simple – it is a little further down in the chapter. You see, the lamb clutching, beatific smiling Jesus also is a refining fire, and God scourges every son whom He brings to glory, and as He intends to bring the many sons to glory, then I guess there is a whole lot of scourging to be done.

    12. And I saw as he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake and the sun was darkened* like the sackcloth of mourning* and the moon [turned red] as blood.
    13. And the stars of heaven fell into the earth, as the fig [tree] that sheds its blossoms while shaken by a great wind*.
    14. And the heaven separated like the written scroll, and all the mountains and islands were moved from their places.
    15. And the kings of the earth, the generals and heads of thousands*, and the rich and powerful, and every servant and son of the free, hid themselves in caves and declivities* of the mountains,
    16. And they said to the mountains and the cliffs, “Fall on us! And hide us from the personage of the one seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
    17. “For the great day of their wrath has arrived and who can [remain] standing?”*
    6:12*Lit. Ar. id.: “Blackened.”
    *Lit. Ar. id.: “Hair.”
    6:13*Lit. Ar. id.: “Tormenting spirit.”
    6:15*Lit. Ar. id.: “Military commanders.”
    *Lit. Ar. id.: “By cliffs.”
    6:17*Lit. Ar. idiomatic construction: “And who can to stand.” Or: who can face it?

    For those who seek His appearing, their will be tears of joy and hope and redemption – to those who have so assiduously denied Him and who have persecuted His elect, and those who have defiled Mankind in contradiction to the caring Creator, they shall suddenly find out that they are in deep guano – very deep.

    The wrath of the Lamb is a very real thing – just ask the money changers – one man with a braided rope scourge chases out the money changers and merchants? It’s just a good thing for them He did not choose the jaw bone of an ass and really do some damage. People have such a wishy washy Jesus – no wonder God is raising up Armies to deal with it. Note that these harbingers of death are licensed to do what they do, just as Satan is – by God. Jesus Himself was not kidding when he laughed at Pilate’s assertion that he had power over Him – He could have called down the host of heaven and dealt to them all in a heartbeat – but that was not the objective – which is the renewal of all things both in heaven and earth, from the Head, and the bringing of many to glory.

    The modern Protesting Church is simply a reformed (per)version of the original Catholic invention. IT IS ALL THE SAME FAMILY TREE. I have been doing some study on deception in the Church and found a very telling pic of Nicky Gumball taking the hand of an aging Pope John Paul in a masonic handshake – perhaps why Catholic churches also adopt the Alpha Course.

    Another clue as to why so many will die, is that the Hobbit has just been pushed out of top-spot in the States by Texas Chain Saw Massacre 3 – 3D. This sickness goes very deep, so too the surgeon’s sword must cut deeply to separate the self from the clutch of the serpent, for it is no longer I (self) which lives, but Christ which lives in me – my (new) self.

    When all the mountains and islands are moved from their places and the whole world is shaken, will that be sign enough? Not, they will still hate God and hate His people and blame both and take out their hatreds on the innocent.

    Just a heads-up guys – the big book in New York is no longer the Bible – it is 50 shades of grey and its sequels. About 7-8yrs ago, I asked Jesus how we would recognize the antichrist, and He said, “He will not come as fiery red demon with cloven hooves, a trident and a tail, but as a GREY MAN, with a GREY MIND and GREY RULES.” Christian Grey is the anti-hero of a pornographic tome trinity – and the latest aberration after this wise is a knock of book with a sexual hero named Gideon Cross!

    And you wonder why a quarter will die? But wait, it gets worse yet….

  119. Revelation 20
    10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    It tells you rather clearly that Death and Hades yielded up their dead who were in them. The dead were judged according to their works.

    Then, after being emptied of the dead, Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire.

    This is called the second death.

    If death were final, there would be no second death.

    This death is for anyone not found in the book of life, who are also cast into the lake of fire.

    Death and Hades, or the Grave, are places where dead souls reside. They are regions for the dead.

    This is not allegorical. This is prophecy. It is a vision, a revelation, given by Jesus to the Prophet and Apostle, John, of what will take place at the judgment.

  120. That’s your mantra, Steve. Death and Hades are personified as horsemen in chapter 6. They go together. Hades follows Death. The horsemen are cast into the fire.

    The onus is on you to show that anything in Revelation isn’t allegorical cause it’s pick and choose the bits that are and those that you take literally.

  121. It tells you rather clearly …. This is not allegorical. This is prophecy. It is a vision, a revelation, given by Jesus to the Prophet and Apostle, John, of what will take place at the judgment.

    Your confidnece in the clarity of The Book of Revelation is somewhat misplaced Steve considering that it is really only in recent years (last 200 or so) that anyone has paid much attention to it – most have not even considered it worth referiing to.

    This prominent position of Revelation in today’s Christian publishing, media, and thought is somewhat surprising, especially in light of the fact that the book has never gained universal acceptance among Christian bodies. As early as the third century, Dionysius of Alexandria wrote that some “of those before our time rejected and altogether impugned the book, examining it chapter by chapter and declaring it to be unintelligible and illogical, and its title false. For they say that it is not John’s, no, nor yet an apocalypse (unveiling), since it is veiled by its heavy, great thick curtain of unintelligibility.” Some Syriac churches did not include Revelation in their canon until the sixth century, while in others it has remained unaccepted. The book has never been included in the Coptic or Ethiopian canons, and though it has been accepted by the Greek Orthodox churches in the East, it is generally ignored. In the West, during the time of the Reformation, Luther designated Revelation to a secondary status, Zwingli denied that it was scripture, and it remained the only book in the New Testament on which Calvin did not write a commentary.

  122. Too many allegories to get to a hell agree situation? When we do not have the light or perhaps the license to see, and we cannot agree, the thing to focus on is the known knowns. We know that when a man dies, his body returns to the ground and his spirit returns to God who gave it. We know that Jesus died on behalf of all men. We know that none come before God except by Jesus. To speculate upon the unknown and the unknowable is vanity and futility – God will reveal all in His time, just as he will save all in His time, not yours or ours – but the Kairos time. I have seen in the Spirit a host of Angels with swords, steed and chariots deal to a den of demons – guess it must have been an allegory, or the Pizza or something….

    Just how Death and Hades can ride a pale horse and then give up all the dead they CONTAIN probably has more to do with the issue of who owns or imprisons the unjust dead. You know, its an allegory, a metaphor. Like the parables, scripture is written in a way which keeps the loveless floundering trying to work it out, it excludes the faithless too, but it invites the person who is after God’s own heart. Jesus spoke in parables so that seeing they may not see and hearing they may not hear, lest they return and be healed. What, Jesus does not want to heal nor to grant understanding that could lead to healing? No, but you have to be ready to receive, to believe – it is on God’s terms an in His time, not ours. So too when Jesus introduces you to the Father, then you may see from the Right Hand and everything is about 180 degrees reversed. To illustrate the point – from the earthly perspective, your earthly body is the temple of God, but from the heavenly perspective, the Temple of God is your Body. Get it?

    Now, if you want an interesting little exercise, go to the Lakewood Church website – there is a lovely pic of Joel top of page – if you take a card and section his face right from left you might perhaps notice two things – if one was to do a little digital trickery and flip the face so that you make a left and mirror image and a right and mirror image you will see that it is two different faces – as in TWO FACES. As in hupocrates – the two face actor. Note that one side looks crazy and one looks malevolent, well at least that is how it appeared to me. Now what has this to do with Hades and death you ask? EVERYTHING! Satan is in the HOUSE and he is LOOSED! But for a purpose – and it is obvious that God gives people leadership according to their hearts

    If Joel’s congregation think he is the goods, what chance have they got to understand the scriptures to any depth, if at all? But the same pretty much applies to every construct of man built in the “image” of God but is in fact a tower built to exalt Man above God. I am sure that there are plenty of Xians out there counting up there drachmas so they can make sure they have enough to build their tower. But a tower to the heavens is just a pile of dung.

    We can argue until we are hoarse over who is riding what filly but the bottom line is that God has not abandoned us here as bastards at the whim and will of the devil – we are ambassadors – we reign in Life by One, Christ Jesus – and through much tribulation we are to help in the great work of bringing the many to son-ship with God, to bring the kingdom to earth, to speak God’s will into the earth – and let Him teach us and guide us and lead us into all truth rather than be saddened and sidelined by speculation.

    There is an answer to the issue as with all and it is plain that none of us know it to any great extent. The way things look in the Spirit and in the natural is quite different yet kind of the same – you have only to see a perfect human spirit in contrast to its crusty old exterior to see that, and also to realize that when it comes to salvation and truly representing God, the Catholic Church (and I mean ALL OF IT, including Protestant Catholics and all sects) really sucks. If it were not so, there would be church leaders weeping hot tears on the steps of the Capitol building 24/7 calling the US nation to repentance for its cruelty and crimes, let alone other nations, but when it comes to hypocrisy, no one quite does it like the good ‘ol US of A. Eh?

  123. It is not surprising that Calvin did not write a commentary on Revelation – there is a warning on that book. Besides, who bothers with Calvin anyway? Calvinists, I guess and those carrot up the bum Reform guys. Zwingli, Luther and such – who gives a rat’s ass what they thought? Man is so silly – Jesus was never at theologian or scholar, He was UNTAUGHT yet He confounded the Pharisees. His lowly ones still confound the Pharisees.

    It is simple really; if the Holy Spirit was behind The Apocalypse, and John was its author, then it should or would resonate with the Voice of God – it should have weight and worth which befits its supernatural origins and purpose. To me, it plainly does. I do not need to entertain futile arguments as to it weightiness or worth as I feel it is self-evident, especially in the letters to the congregations.

    You guys can believe what you like, analyze, criticize, even debate on mass, but to me it is living scripture and part of the incredibly important body of work which came through John and which has a remarkable spiritual synergy. Besides, I have seen the bowls of wrath – God showed them to me and I saw one spill over and the next day there was a series of calamities and disasters – He said “I cannot hold back much longer” – and of course the cynic will say “Oh but nothing impossible to God” and I would say yes, even to resisting Mankind’s appalling appetite and demand for destruction. God is not judging Mankind so much as Mankind is judging itself by judging others and denying mercy.

    The Angel of Death works for God, no the devil.

    The message God has set upon since before the beginning of time is the restoration of all things both in the heaven and in the earth, from the Head, which is Jesus. A witness and an opinion are not the same thing and a sure way of distinguishing one from the other is that when people assail our opinions, our pride is pricked, but a true witness carries with it the calm assurance of humility. But does God get sniffy when someone contradicts Him? About as much as you get when your kids do something really dumb…but he never stops loving us because we act or think stupidly – he corrects us and scourges every son whom He receives – whom God loves, He corrects.

  124. Besides, I have seen the bowls of wrath – God showed them to me

    Well, if GOd showed it to you, that’s different then.

    You must be p[retty spec Ian for God to be telling you so many things she’s not telling anyone else

  125. “The Angel of Death works for God”

    He must be pretty busy then.

    Honestly, do we still believe death is caused by an angel?

  126. Revelation in Context: Letters and Symbols

    Greg Carey
    Professor of New Testament
    Lancaster Theological Seminary

    This might come as a surprise to many, but Revelation’s interpreters have arrived at a general consensus regarding why John wrote the Apocalypse, particularly the circumstances surrounding Revelation’s composition. Two aspects of Revelation provide the primary evidence for our assessment: the letters to the seven churches in chapters 2 and 3, and the most prominent symbols scattered throughout the rest of the book.

    In Revelation 2-3, the risen Jesus dictates “letters” to seven individual churches clustered in the Roman province of Asia (western Turkey today). These letters provide only sketchy hints regarding those churches, but a few insights do emerge. First, the churches were diverse in social composition, lived experience, and — according to the letters — faithfulness to the Gospel. The letters identify some churches as comfortable, others as impoverished; some as persecuted, others as complacent. Revelation was written before “Judaism” and “Christianity” constituted two distinct world religions, and two letters mention tension between churches and their neighboring synagogues.

    Perhaps most importantly, the letters reflect conflict within the churches. Using code-names like Balaam, the Nicolaitans and Jezebel, the letters accuse competing Christian prophets of promoting sexual sin (porneia) and eating idol-food. Scholars doubt that John’s opponents promoted literal promiscuity, though that it possible. Instead, biblical authors often employed sexual imagery in their condemnations against idolatry. Perhaps porneia and eating idol-food amounted to about the same thing.

    Here’s one likely scenario: The relationship between religion and culture was vastly different in the ancient world than in our postmodern societies. A walk through the ruins of ancient Ephesus would reveal the thorough implication of religion in public life, with shrines and temples lining the streets. Every institution, from the empire and local governments to trade guilds, burial societies and households honored patron deities. Several of the Asian cities were noted for their high levels of religiosity. Daily household rites, regular social gatherings, and major festivals all included religious observances. Yet Revelation calls believers to “come out” from that cultural environment (18:4), to witness to Jesus (12:11) while keeping their garments clean from corruption (3:4). Most scholars believe that the Nicolaitans, Balaam and Jezebel had convinced many believers that it was OK to participate in social gatherings and public events, including meals, despite their religious dimensions. John strongly disagreed, regarding every trace of pagan religion as idolatrous.

    If the letters to the churches condemn participation in common cultural activities, some of Revelation’s distinctive symbols may provide a context for John’s concerns. To be clear, no one understands all of Revelation’s numbers and symbols. Nor should we assume that every symbol points to one and only one meaning. Still, almost all interpreters have come to a common assessment of several key symbols in the Apocalypse: the Lamb, the Beast, the Great Prostitute, the Other Beast and the New Jerusalem.

    Revelation describes a conflict between a Lamb and a Beast. The Lamb clearly represents Jesus; it receives worship before God’s throne, having already suffered death and redeemed people from every nation (5:6-10). According to Revelation 13, most people worship the Beast. The saints do not; therefore, the Beast makes war against the saints. “Who is like the Beast, and who can make war against it?” cry the masses (13:4).

    Revelation poses the Lamb and the Beast as opposites. The Lamb stands before God’s throne; the Beast receives its power from Satan (12:9; 13:2). Both receive worship, though the Beast’s worship is blasphemous (13:1, 5; 17:3). The Lamb has many eyes; the Beast has many heads. The Lamb has passed through death to glory; one of the Beast’s heads has survived a mortal wound. The Lamb’s followers receive identifying marks on their foreheads; the Beast’s are marked on the hand and the forehead. The Lamb conquers the Beast by its word; the Beast slaughters the Lamb’s followers (13:7-8).

    We learn more about the Beast from its association with two other symbols, the Great Prostitute (16:17-19:3) and the Other Beast (especially 13:11-17).

    The Great Prostitute rides the Beast. Though she is identified with Babylon, we learn that Revelation — like some other ancient Jewish and Christian texts — identifies Rome with Babylon. Indeed, Revelation links the Beast’s seven heads to Roman’s famous seven hills (17:9). What really distinguishes the Prostitute is her opulence. Decked out in luxurious clothing and holding a golden cup, she consorts with kings and merchants to generate enormous wealth by exploiting ordinary people (18:12-13). In short, the Great Prostitute has something to do with the exploitative nature of Roman imperial diplomacy and commerce, which extracted fabulous riches off the backs of farmers, laborers and slaves.

    Now that we’ve identified the Beast with Roman imperialism, the image of the Other Beast comes more clearly into focus. Revelation’s first Beast emerges from the sea — common imagery for western imperial powers in Jewish apocalyptic literature. But the Other Beast emerges from the earth and promotes worship of the first Beast. The Other Beast likely points to indigenous elites of Asia, who promoted worship of the Beast, Caesar. The cities of Roman Asia stood out for their devotion to Rome and its emperor. Much like modern cities compete for the Olympic Games and other events, the Asian cities petitioned the Roman Senate for permission to dedicate shrines and festivals to Rome and to Caesar. The local elites supported these endeavors, even equipping the choirs and other participants in the festivities.

    Now we see the source of Revelation’s conflict. Modern readers may struggle to imagine it, but ancient people really did worship their rulers. Roman emperors were acclaimed as “son of God,” “Lord” and “Savior” — the same titles Jesus’ followers applied to him. From John’s point of view, worship of the emperor amounted to idolatry. Just as important, Caesar governed a vast system of violence and exploitation, including the threat of persecution among the churches. In the Beast system, failure to honor Caesar amounted to treason. Indeed, Revelation alludes to believers who have died on account of their witness to Jesus (2:13; 6:9-11).

    While other prophets in the Asian churches called for moderation and accommodation, John demanded outright resistance. All tokens of idolatry must be shunned, especially worship of Caesar. We can only imagine how painful these debates must have been for the Asian Christians, who were forced to discern the line between faithful witness to Jesus and securing their families and their lives. We can know one thing: Revelation is the first work to employ the Greek word martys to mean “martyr.”

    Revelation does not promise believers that they will enter heaven after they die. It promises no rapture, nor escape from any great tribulation. Instead, those who “conquer” the Beast will enter a New Jerusalem, a gleaming city that comes down from heaven to earth. There they will find healing, comfort and joy in the presence of the Lamb.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-carey/revelation-in-context-let_b_1183979.html

  127. Maybe I am just listening…and like I said, I know of others who have had many amazing experiences…and guess what…you do not get to choose…it is not about ambition but election.

    Everything in the end “works for God” who is able to make all things work together for good to those that love Him and are called according to His purpose.

    And as for allegory, to enter New Jerusalem is to put on Christ in fullness and to walk n the Power of the resurrection. This has not happened yet, but it will.

    1 Corinthians 2

    1. And I, my brethren, come to you neither with great speeches, nor with wisdom do I preach to you the sermon of God.
    2. And I do not judge myself among you like I know something, except for Jesus Christ, also [Jesus] as he was on the cross.
    3. And I come to you with much fear and trembling.
    4. And my manifestation and preaching are not through deliverance by words of wisdom, except through the revelation of the Spirit and power.
    5. So as your faith may not be in the service of humanity, except through the power of God.
    6. Wisdom, however, we speak of among those who are mature, neither the wisdom of this world, nor of the authorities of this world which shall come to naught,
    7. Except we speak the wisdom of God through the sermon that was hidden and which God had chosen from before [the foundations of] the universe, for our glorification.
    8. That which not one of the authorities of this world know about, for if they know it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.
    9. Except as it is written in Scriptures,

    No eye has seen and no ear has heard, and the human heart has not perceived,
    that which God has consecrated for those who have mercy on him (who love God).

    10. To us, however, God revealed it through His Spirit, for the Spirit can fathom anything, even the depths of God.
    11. For which human being knows what it is to be human, if it were not for the human spirit within them. Likewise no human being knows about God, except for the Spirit of God.
    12. We, however, did not receive the spirit of the world, except [we received] the Spirit from God, in order that we may know the endowment we received from God.

    13. Even these things that we speak, are not through the knowledge of words, by human wisdom, except through the enlightenment of the Spirit, and regarding spirits we have contemplated spiritually.
    14. For the human being is a lone soul and [human beings] cannot receive that which is spiritual, for that causes contention (redundancy) in them, and they cannot comprehend how to judge the spiritual.
    15. The holy Spirit, however, judges everything, and He cannot be judged by any human being.
    16. For who understands the Lord’s perception, so as to teach Him? We, however, have Christ’s perception.

    Selah.

  128. Bones,
    The onus is on you to show that anything in Revelation isn’t allegorical cause it’s pick and choose the bits that are and those that you take literally.

    Did you make up those rules all on your own?

    Let’s cut to the chase. Tell me, who are the dead in the passage I quoted from Revelation 2, Bones? Where did they come from?

  129. “Did you make up those rules all on your own?”

    It’s called being consistent. Your views on what is literal and what is symbolic twists and turns from passage to passage and chapter to chapter.

    Revelation 20 is a case in point. It is highly symbolic and has to be read in context with Rev 19. You know where an angel stands in the sun and Jesus rides on a white horse and smites the armies with a sword from his mouth. In modern terms he’d be better with a chain gun.

    That Rev 20 begins with a dragon/serpent/devil being locked in an abyss for a thousand years to be unleashed for a short time is the stuff of fantasy.

    Then we have the martyrs resurrected who reign with Christ for a thousand years.

    Then Satan is mercifully unleashed onto the Earth which must have forgotten about Jesus smiting the armies of the world with a sword (chain gun) in his mouth because you guessed it they lined up to get thrashed again and the devil joins his mates in the burning lake.

    Actually can you burn a demon? There’s a thought.

    Then everyone sits around the great white throne listening to every single person’s life story and they along with Death and his mate Hades get toasted.

    There’s no prophecy here.

    There is encouragement for Christians who have had to endure persecution.

    That’s what John’s on about.

  130. Bones,
    Your views on what is literal and what is symbolic twists and turns from passage to passage and chapter to chapter.

    Since I’ve commented on hardly any parts of Revelation, I don’t see how you could be taken seriously on that comment.

    Secondly, your accusation that Revelation is fantasy is the claim of a person who is unable to correctly divide the Word of God.

    Further, your lack of understanding of how to discern prophecy indicates how low your grasp of scripture as sunk. Or maybe it never rose to any heights in the first place and you are, indeed, being consistent.

    You still haven’t answered any of the crucial questions I have asked involving the dead, where they came from, what the second death is, and why there is a reference to the lake of fire at all if there is no existence after death.

    Quite frankly, none of what you say adds up in the slightest, because if Revelation is merely an encouragement for persecuted saints, it is pretty poor example of exhortation, and extremely confusing for all concerned. Why not just write, ‘it’s gonna be OK one day folks’?

    You are completely unable to take up the challenge of interpreting the allegorical meaning of any passages.

    You also accuse me of jumping from literal to symbolic as if I were wrong to do so, when the entire Book is based on the Revelation of Jesus as handed down to John in a vision. There is far more to the Revelation than allegory, although, as I have pointed out, it does exist within thew structure, but the majority of it is revelatory and prophetic, and has to be interpreted alongside both Old and New Testament scriptures which already point towards and confirm what the Revelation says.

    You probably believe the garbage Greg posted on the supposed ‘4 Big Myths of the Book of Revelation’.

    The truth is that you don’t believe the adversary exists, the soul is eternal, death is separation from God, or that there is torment for the unrepentant sinner.

    I don’t think it’s my doctrine which is in question here. No not at all, since it is the generally accepted evangelical position, is consistent with the words of Christ and the writings of both OT and NT writers, and is easily understood by those who actually believe the Bible.

  131. Bones,
    Revelation 20 is a case in point. It is highly symbolic and has to be read in context with Rev 19. You know where an angel stands in the sun and Jesus rides on a white horse and smites the armies with a sword from his mouth. In modern terms he’d be better with a chain gun.

    That Rev 20 begins with a dragon/serpent/devil being locked in an abyss for a thousand years to be unleashed for a short time is the stuff of fantasy.

    Then we have the martyrs resurrected who reign with Christ for a thousand years.

    Then Satan is mercifully unleashed onto the Earth which must have forgotten about Jesus smiting the armies of the world with a sword (chain gun) in his mouth because you guessed it they lined up to get thrashed again and the devil joins his mates in the burning lake.

    Actually can you burn a demon? There’s a thought.

    Deplorable misrepresentation!

    Your ignorance is revealed.

  132. Hey Steve, what would you say if I said that I have seen the Sword which comes out of His mouth and just how He “slays” His enemies? It is the sword of the Spirit which divides flesh from Spirit. We so readily forget that everything is the Creative manifestation of WORD, but our word Word is inadequate to convey such majesty, grace and Power, such are the limitations of that mongrel language of the English.

    The confusion of Babylon is not so much that we do not understand each others language, it is that we do not understand each other and ipso facto, we do not really understand God as much as we may like to think that we do, for if it were so we would understand each other much better, even intimately. When the people at Pentecost heard in their own language, it means they heard it in their understanding – they HEARD THE WORD which transcends mere human words and the prideful barriers to understanding and which speaks directly to the heart – and faith came by the hearing and the hearing came BY THE WORD.

    The Aramaic word is MILTA which means “the manifest essence” of God. Paul referred to the Sword as being the WEAPON OF HIS POWER and that the kingdom of God is not in words, but in the expression of POWER. the gospel is THE POWER OF GOD, Jesus is the Power of God, the Manifestation is the express representation of the Power.

    While we dicker over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin, when you could simply open up those gates, those everlasting doors of your own home imprisonment and let the Lord of Glory come in? Behold, I stand at the Door and I knock, if any man opens I will come in and sup with Him. He shall prepare a table for us in the midst of OUR enemies, those inner issues of the heart and mind which are the bastions or strongholds of satan and of our own defeat.

    When we are ready, when we are sick of our imprisonment God draws us to Himself – but for now we are too often like fellow prisoners carping at each other from our cells, reinforcing our own imprisonment. For God has consigned all humanity to imprisonment so that he might have Mercy on ALL. See. stick to the known knowns, but I fear that not many here even know that God intends to reconcile ALL things in Himself and that as He contains ALL THINGS, then He must contain what is ubiquitously termed the fire of hell, the refining fire, which will try every man’s works of what they are made.

    You are still in the dividing stage of measuring and apportioning good and evil according to your own consciences and cultures, and not according to the everlasting mercy of God, who would have mercy before sacrifice. As Jesus said, If I be lifted up, then will I draw some people to me and the rest can go to hell…yeah, right.

    Apostasy is nothing more than having an opinion instead of having the Mind of Christ, and as we have the Spirit of God within us (?) we (ought to) have the Mind of Christ. In order to be developed into the maturity Jesus said to seek to manifest, it takes a child-like faith. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect (mature, complete, lacking nothing). Shalom and aa-meen.

    Ya gotta laugh. Or as the Holy Spirit challenged me, “If you preach hell, then are you not hell’s preachers?” Indeed. Those great ‘awakeners’ who dangled souls over Hell’s maw did such a disservice to God, as bad as any Popery imaginable. It paved the way for Billy Graham and his God shaped hole, when what God is out to manifest is a GOD SHAPED WHOLE!

  133. 13. You were called to His freedom, brethren, however, let not your freedom be for the sake of the flesh, except let your submission to each other be in love.
    14. For all the Law is fulfilled by one manifestation, that you love your kin as yourself.
    15. If, however, you grind one another down and chew each other out, see that you do not eliminate (sift) each other.
    16. I am telling you then, walk in the Spirit and never be a slave to the pleasures of the flesh.
    17. For the flesh enjoys what lowers the spirit, and the spirit enjoys what lowers the flesh, and both of them are a hindrance to each other, so that you can never do what you wish.
    18. If then you were fetched by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
    19. For you know the manifestation of the flesh, fornication, evil doing, dissolution,
    20. The making of idols, witchcraft, hostility, destructiveness, backbiting, resentfulness, stubbornness, divisiveness, apathy,
    21. Killing, murder, drunkenness, [outrageous] singing and the like. And those who devote themselves to such things, as I told you from the start, I tell you now as well, they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.
    22. The fruit of the Spirit, however, are love, joy, peace, compassion, fulfillment, grace, faith,
    23. Gentleness, hope — the Law does not consecrate these.
    24. These belong to Christ, they crucified the flesh together with all its wounds and lusts.
    25. To live thus is by the Spirit and in submission to the Spirit.
    26. And [those that live so] are not lacking in bliss that they should torment one another and cut down each other.

    Note that the Aramaic states that the FRUIT belong to Christ and that due to the paradox of flesh and spirit that (vs 17) “you can never do what you wish”. Oh wretched men….

    Let’s not grind and sift one another but rather build one another up in love while there is still time to top up the lamps, for the night is coming and soon it will be too late….

    0(:->)

  134. Someone should tell Bones that Revelation is organised into three parallel sections, which explains the contextual arrangement and why some things seem to repeat or fall out of order.

    The Revelation is Jesus’ revelation, not the Revelation of John. It was given to John to see the Revelation, but it was not his Revelation, but that of Jesus.

    Maybe a reading of verse 1 and 2 would help:

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants–things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.

    That alone should crush Pagel’s miss-mash of misinformation on the ‘4 myths’ thread.

    It is written to the seven churches of Asia of that time, so it is a specific prophecy for a specific group, but has both contemporary and future data, some of which is in allegorical form, some prophecy and some current with the churches to which the revelation is addressed.

    It is related to John by an angelic visitation and through an open vision. He is instructed to write it down on a scroll and publish it to the indicated churches.

    It is attributed by John’s followers to John, the beloved of Jesus.

    …as being an eyewitness of the essential Logos, or Word of God, and who bore a faithful record of him as such, as John did in his Gospel, in a very peculiar and remarkable manner, and from this writer’s being in the isle of Patmos when he wrote, #Re 1:9|; for of what other John can this be said? to which may be added the testimonies of the ancient writers, as Justin Martyr, who lived within fifty years of the apostle, and Irenaeus, who was the disciple of Polycarp, an hearer of this apostle, and Clemens Alexandrinus, Tertullian, Origen, and others, who ascribe it to him.
    Gill

    Although a Revelation, it is called prophecy, and the testimony of Christ.

    This is why it is either blasphemy or heresy to deny the significance of the Revelation.

    It foretells events, many of which take place in the heavenlies, and are not of earthly understanding to those who are not in the Spirit (1 Cor.2:14), or they take place on the earth as a matter of judgement under the seven eyes of the Spirit, which is a direct reference to the omnipotence and omniscience of God in enacting the prophecies at the appropriate times,and revealed through the seals and judgments, which were sealed up under instruction from God by Daniel, who was also privy to them, but told they would be revealed at another time to his (Daniel 12:9-13).

    It releases blessing to those who read or hear it, and is called prophecy.

  135. To further assist, the three sections are outlined in Revelation 1:19.

    “Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.”

    The things which you have seen.

    The things which are.

    The things will take place after this.

  136. “Deplorable misrepresentation!

    Your ignorance is revealed.”

    Poor thing. Actually the ignorance is with you. Undoubtedly you’ll claim God on your side but you can’t even answer a simple question about the text.

    Yes your approach to Revelation is inconsistent, based upon whatever verse suits your point of view, as to whether a passage is allegorical or literal.

    You need a modern commentary as well.

    Gill is so 1800s.

    (Nice to know that you know who some of the Church Fathers are)

    Btw did Gill know that Revelation scraped into the canon by the skin of its teeth and only because of Athanasius.

    “This is why it is either blasphemy or heresy to deny the significance of the Revelation.”

    Now we can’t get our way, so we take the big stick approach.

    To deny my interpretation is to deny God.

    Pooh to you with knobs on.

  137. Steve how do you harmonise the God of Revelatoin with te GOd to whom Jesus prays calling him “Abba” daddy – my father – dad?

    All those horrible things supposedly going to happen to people who don;t get written in some imaginary ‘Book of Life’ are just not what Paul teaches nor what Jesus taught.

    The Jesus which is depicted in the canonical Gospels as a loving Savior figure is depicted in Revelation as a vicious king seeking revenge on those who do not accept his rule.

    4th Century greats like John Chrysostum couldn’t interpert Revelatoin – but you claim it is all quite clear and straight forward?

  138. The first mention of the book of life is when Moses pleads for God’s mercy and Moses asks that if He is going to strike their names from His Book then God may as well include his too.

    32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin–; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

    33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

    Due to the thousands of changes Maimonides and later Bacon made to the scriptures, I prefer the Aramaic – compare this:

    31. “Now, if you will forgive their sins — but if you will not, write me out of your scriptures that you may have written.”
    32. The Lord said to Moses, “Those who sinned I shall not write out of my Scriptures.
    33. “Now, go and take this nation to where I have commanded you and, behold, my angel shall go before you, and on the Day of my Commandment I shall visit their sins upon them.”
    34. And the Lord punished the people for worshiping the calf that Aaron built.

    Note that in the KJV and in others it say God will strike them from the book yet the Aramaic says the complete opposite. Here is where it comes down to knowing The nature of God and perhaps a good indication of His intentions, as it is now as in the days of Noah, is the Flood. The scripture records how God drowned everyone except righteous Noah and those in the Ark. Now we know that the Ark is a type of The Body Of Christ and that if we are in Him we shall be saved from the flood of license and darkness which is to come upon the whole world.

    It also records how that those who died in the flood and up until the time of the Resurrection were led out of Sheol by the Savior, when He led captivity captive. You know, God has committed ALL to unrighteousness, all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on and to all.

    When our sons do something which really ticks us off, the response is often something as outrageous as “I could bloody murder him” – but of course you never would as you love them.

    We have lost sight of much of God’s ways, blinded perhaps by our ass-id-u-ass study of those things which consume us rather than simply getting to know Him and His Ways, which are higher than our ways. But we vainly attach human qualities to God and try to reform Him after our image, yes? You will fins a lot more pictures of Jesus wielding a widdle lambykins than a righteous scourge! If you have spent any time on the threshing floor you will know that no chastening seems for the present time seems to be joyful…

    It is not the Judge who is on trial here, it is Mankind. You do not go before the bench for what the judge does – he does not ask or compel you to break the Law, he simply upholds it – the Law judges you and you judge yourself by the Law. If you want mercy, then be merciful, for if you love you fulfill all the Law and love covers for the multitude of our sins.

    As to why God set everything up the way it is, I think somehow He knows what He is doing and we have to trust that He does and will reveal to us all in out season His intention for us – it is called faith. There is no contradiction in God, it is in our understanding where the contradiction lies – it is always a safe ass-umption that this is so. It’s called faith.

  139. Oh and Greg, Paul mentions the Book of Life in Philippians, one of his last BOOKS. Books are records, books are ledgers, or accounts. The Bible is the account of the dealings of God with Man. We are in the Lamb’s Ledger of Life. You don’t get to it ‘cos you are already in it – have been since before the foundations of the Universe, when God had a Lamb slain. Kapiche? But apparently you can have your name removed – you would have to be be pretty stupid…

    But even God got so mad at the people He told Moses he SHOULD remove their names and in the HELL-IN-IZED perVERSIONS it actually say He will, but in the much more redemptive Aramaic it says He won’t – go figure. What would you rather do, argue the toss, or trust God and the wicket He has prepared and the rules He has written and get on with the game?

  140. Greg, see how you allow your sentimentality interferes with what is written.

    You do not know God if you do not know His true mercy and grace is based on His ultimate authority and power over all things.

    I didn’t say Revelation was all clear and straightforward. I said it could be understood. There is a difference.

    But if you do not believe the rest of the canon, you’ll have no hope of understanding Revelation.

    The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

    End of!

  141. I understand Revelation.

    And I bet my understanding is totally different to yours.

    And God is on my side.

    So bite me!

  142. If you understood Revelation, Bones, it would be totally different to what you current don’t believe!

    In fact, you not only don’t understand Revelation, you also think it should be disregarded.

    God might be on your side, but you sure ain’t listening to Him.

  143. God is on everyone’s side – He contains all. But all fall short, none are righteous except Jesus – stick to absolutes and known knowns and seek God while He may be found – He will fill in the gaps. The Holy Spirit is the Teacher of the Body, not the Book.

    God answers us according to our delusion, hence while we may think God is on our side, He is actually gently steering us toward His conclusion, and sometimes not so gently if we kick against the goads.

    Have you noticed how that at times you ask God a question and the answer seems to confirm your bias but later on down the line the penny drops and you see God for who he really is and the situation as it is? Then you realize that the answer he gave you actually led to your correction? Like the way He answered the Pharisees.

    Back in 2000, my wife wanted a dog – I did not. I asked God what His will was and he said “It is up to you”.

    Good, no dog and God is on my side!

    “Hold on – what do you mean it is up to me?”

    “Well you know My Will.”

    “No I don’t.”

    “Yes you do, My Will is Love, what would Love do?”

    “Love would let her have the dog.”

    “That’s right.”

    After I relented and said she could have the dog (how ‘BIG’ of me) I asked my wife if she had sough the Lord as to His will, and she said “Of course”.

    “Well what did he say?”

    “He said it was up to me…”

    “And…?”

    “So I got the dog…”

    I came to love that dog and and he was such a devoted family member who defended our home, but also often a great big smelly pain in the neck too at times.

    I cried when I held him as he passed this year, and in a vision saw one like unto the Son of Man run off into eternal fields with him…slapping His thigh and saying “Come on boy…”

    Come on guys – feel the LOVE for goodness sakes!

  144. Good grief leads to repentance…perhaps your relationship with love is on a more intellectual level…? Certain things in life have to be experienced – like grief – who can effectively relate what grief is, you can only scratch at the door of it, but when it overwhelms you and consumes you, suddenly grief is very real.

    I think you guys need to get in touch with your feelings maybe? The obduracy of the Law is no substitute for the softened heart inscribed with God’s Law of Love.

    Did you like my point about Abraham and all the OT saints actually being followers of Christ and not followers of Judaism? Christ did not come to confirm Judaism, HE CAME TO DESTROY IT.

    All your righteousness is as a filthy menstrual cloth before God.

    I am sorry that you have not had the pleasure of experiencing such joys as I have Greg, but I am sure God has done so many special little things for you over the years just to let you know that he is always there and that He always cares for you and yours. He loves all but He especially loves those who love Him and He corrects them as beloved sons and scourges every Son whom He receives.

    You get back up off the threshing floor a different kind of person than went down there. The beginnings of transformation by the washing of he Water of the Word, the renewing of our mind etc, start to get really real when you are broken bread before Him. The joy I now know came by persecution and affliction, not from happy clappy joy joy jizz juice religion – it came from being broken upon a Rock.

    The flip side of what was originally slammed here – IHOP – is evident in these correspondents – the pot calling the kettle black? But the likes of Steve and Q give me hope. 0(:->)

    Bones and Greg should get married – they deserve each other. LOL. Greg – send me an email at viasollertia@paradise.net.nz and I will link back the essay on the blasphemy of the Spirit, if you are in fact interested or if you just want to get an opportunity to check me out and work me over…

    In the last days men will become mockers…

  145. Hey but Greg, at least you read it, and my word goes forth and it shall not return void without that it accomplishes the thing unto which it is sent! LOL.

  146. @Ian

    “The Angel of Death works for God, no the devil.”

    I am assuming that you meant to say “NOT” the devil here. If that is the case, you are completely wrong. God cannot use evil, and death is evil. John 10:10 tells us where death comes from – the devil. Death does not come from God, he does not use death for any purpose. Death is His enemy.

  147. So…who sent death around the firstborn of the Egyptians then Roudhouse…seeing as though you accept that story as having really occured

  148. Yes, an egregious typo. Pas me the sack cloth and ashes…

    Now that depends of whether you are talking physical death or spiritual death – like the difference between sozo and soteria – temporal vs eternal salvation.

    God created the devil. He was perfect in the day he was created yet iniquity was found(ed) in him. The devil is the end of the line for the prodigal.

    “I Am the Lord, I CREATE THE DARKNESS AND THE LIGHT FOR MY OWN PURPOSES! Ask Ananias and Sapphira about death when you get to heaven. Ask the antediluvian humans.

    The angel of Death comes out of heaven on a pale horse and it is given to him to do what he will. And if you do not think God uses the Death Angel then I suggest you rip out Exodus and all the other accounts of the slaughter of humans at the hands of angels.

    I mean, let’s face it, He uses sinners too to get things done, as well as saints. Vessels to honor, vessels to dishonor – the same Lord and God to all.

    Why the PASSOVER? Why did the children of Israel need protection from the avenging Angel of Death? Why did God let 6 million die in the holocaust? Why do millions of Americans get sacrificed to Satan in abortion clinics? Why all the suffering?

    I asked Jesus why all the suffering in the world and He said, “Ian, never forget, it all is just flesh, you cannot harm Spirit.”

    And for the record, Jesus was comparing His ministry with that of the devil, if you can understand that. If the devil was not fulfilling his designated purpose, he would not exist.

    Do you really think God was caught on the hop by Satan or by the Fall? Why did God say “DON’T EAT” when anyone who knows anything about people management knows the first rule is DON’T SAY DON’T?

    I suppose you will try and tell me Jesus was a Jew?

  149. “In the last days men will become mockers…”

    Yes you can see that. Believers are called atheists. But these aren’t last days.

    There is after all nothing new under the Son.

  150. Well I guess we will all soon know – you think that it is not the last days, I think that it is. There is nothing new under the sun, hence it is the same ofld conflicts since conflicts began, its just this generation’s turn…but certain things are in place – the capacity for total annihilation of Mankind, the world wide web, the one language (binary code or babylon code), the computing power to control the world, and to cap it all off, The McRib – could it get much worse?

  151. @Greg

    “who sent death around the firstborn of the Egyptians then Roudhouse”

    No one “sent” death. Death is an enemy of God. He doesn’t and cannot use it for His own purpose. He doesn’t use the devil either. People like you who are biblically illiterate see God as some kind of deranged mafia don, sending the devil out to do His dirty work so He can keep his hands “clean”. But Jesus revealed the truth. Read John 10:10. Jesus came to reveal the father, but also to reveal the real enemy – Satan. But seeing as though you don’t believe in Satan, any argument I present will offend your “intellect”, so we are at a moot point.

  152. So, let me get this one straight…did God send any of the 10 plagues upon Egypt? Or is it just the last one god didn’t send?0

  153. “Death is an enemy of God.”

    No God won’t send death. But he will consign billions to an eternity of suffering.

    Jesus even said in Revelation He will kill the children of prostitutes.

    I taught a child whose mother was a prostitute. Nice kid. Was school captain.

    Oh yeah. And God is love.

  154. Greg,
    Steve how do you harmonise the God of Revelatoin with te GOd to whom Jesus prays calling him “Abba” daddy – my father – dad?

    How does this take place? By the leading of the Spirit. Those who are the sons of God are led by the Spirit, and they find themselves crying “Abba Father” because they have the Spirit of Christ.

    Romans 8
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
    15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
    16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
    17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

    This is not referring to the sinner who has already rejected Christ, and therefore rejected the Spirit of Christ, and rejected the Father, and are called the children of disobedience who follow and obey their father the prince of this world.

    Ephesians 2:1-3
    …who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

    So it’s not a matter of reconciling a so-called God of Revelation, or God the Father. That is a creation of your own imagination.

    God is God in Romans, and God in Revelation. He is Almighty, Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent, All-Knowing, All-Seeing and Eternally Wise. He is also the Righteous and Jealous God. He is the Judge, and His Justice will be revealed, because Judgment and Justice are one and the same, and must be fulfilled according to His Word.

    He has sent His Son, so all the world can repent and turn to Him an be saved, spared the judgment to come and the wrath which accompanies it. There is no excuse.

    Romans 1
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
    17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
    19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
    20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
    21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.Christ is the Lamb was Slain before the Creation. He is the Propitiation, the Redeemer, the Saviour. He is the ransom. He offers eternal life for those who believe. But not all will receive Him.

    Those who reject Christ condemn themselves, And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

    Greg,
    All those horrible things supposedly going to happen to people who don;t get written in some imaginary ‘Book of Life’ are just not what Paul teaches nor what Jesus taught.

    Supposed? Imaginary? Would you like to rephrase that before I take to it? They are entirely consistent with the teaching of Christ and Paul, as already indicated in the previous lines of this comment.

    Greg,
    The Jesus which is depicted in the canonical Gospels as a loving Savior figure is depicted in Revelation as a vicious king seeking revenge on those who do not accept his rule.

    That is such a Catholic load of tripe I can barely think of where to start, but again I’ll give you the opportunity to rephrase that blasphemous nonsense before I take to it with the gospel. Next you’ll be saying that we should thank God for Mary being the mediatrix so that the vicious king is suppressed!

    As you say, “Good grief!”

    One day, Greg, when the long-suffering o Gd is over, and He calls time, He will come, and His wrath will be revealed, and those who have rejected Him will know that he is God, and that His love was always for them, but there will be a day when everything of Adam must end and the reign of righteousness will begin.

    That is why there is an urgency to preach the gospel to a fallen world.

  155. “That is such a Catholic load of tripe…”

    Oh dear, off on your anti-Catholic crusade again. There was nothing Catholic in that sense about what Greg wrote but a perfectly reasoned comment at reconciling the Jesus of the Gospels with the Jesus of Revelation.

    According to John Patmos, Jesus will rule with an iron rod for 1000 years, will kill children of prostitutes, will send people to hell for adding to the Book of Revelation.

    John Patmos’s Jesus will cast the fearful into the lake of fire. They were the Christians who did sacrifice to idols on threat of their and their family’s death. But Paul tells us there are no idols!

    John Patmos’s Jesus contradicts Paul and the Jesus of the Gospels about eating food sacrificed to idols and will in fact punish Christians who do so.
    .
    It can also be a history lesson that shows us the type of person that was contesting with Paul about the nature of the Gospel. John Patmos appears to be like the people of the “Party of James,” the “Circumcision Party,” who wanted Jewish traditions continued in the Body of Christ.

    It seems as if John Patmos was holding tightly to his Jewish traditions in “Revelation. Looking at his beliefs can show us why Paul developed peevishness against such beliefs and finally said of them, “Trouble me no more” (Galatians 6:17).

    Does your Jesus kill children?

  156. Bones,
    It seems

    It seems like nothing you claim. You are picking out the parts you don’t like to serve your own argument. It is very poor exegesis, and extremely disrespectful of God.

    In the general pattern of liberals, one by one, you pick off books of the Bible and eliminate them from the discussion so there is nothing left to discuss but your own pet theology.

    You cannot discuss the scriptures because you simply do not believe them.

    You’re happy with God forgiving the whole world, but scathing of the way he is forced to deal with those who reject him.

    Now you have, in your mind, and with the help of Greg and Ian, removed Revelation from any type of discussion we might have on this blog, along with genesis, which you have already turned into a myth.

    I really don’t know what to think about where you are anymore, frankly.

    As far as any discussions we might have here, I no longer have anywhere to go with you, since everything I live by radiates from the beloved scriptures which, as far as our relationship is concerned, you have ripped from the book.

    Where is the wrath of God in your equation?

  157. “Where is the wrath of God in your equation?”

    Is your God a god of vengeance?

    It seems you think Jesus is Someone who should be feared like John Patmos does.

    Tell me Steve, why did Revelation not appear in any early church father’s writings for the first couple of hundred years?

    Cause even they thought it was suss.

    The Greek literary styles of John Patmos and John Apostle were examined in very early Christianity to prove these are two different writers. Eighteen hundred years ago, Dionysius (Bishop of the Patriarchy of Alexandria) stated that “Revelation” was not written by the same person who wrote John’s Gospel and Letters. (Eusebius’ History of the Church, 7.25) His opinion came from his comparing their two writing styles and found John Patmos to be entirely different from John Apostle and any other New Testament writer

    Athanasius loved it because he represented those being cast in the lake of fire as the heretics, the Arians and all those claiming heterodox beliefs.

    “since everything I live by radiates from the beloved scriptures which, as far as our relationship is concerned, you have ripped from the book.”

    If your going to live your life by a text, you’d better be sure you’ve got the right one and you have a clue as to what it’s about.

  158. Pretentious waffle, Bones.

    And your assertions that God is the God of vengeance is just an appeal to negativity, when it is clear that God is all powerful and has without doubt spoken of His wrath being poured.

    You are indeed eliminating any book that confirms the error in your doctrine.

    You refuse to engage n the scripture itself and focus on the liberal views being touted o the authenticity of writers and texts. That is why it is impossible to discuss scripture with you at any Biblical level. You won’t because you can’t, so instead you remove all and any scripture which confirms orthodox evangelical teaching.

    Regardless, even if you take away the first and last books of the Bible, there is enough content in the canon to know that God’s love, mercy and grace are enhanced by his long-suffering, which is prevalent because sin has meant wrath must be poured on those who have rejected him and rebelled against his will.

    Even without Revelation God’s wrath is revealed, not as a negative reflection on God, but because justice must be accorded, and the wages of sin is revealed, the world is warned and the free pardon is offered, even to the extent of Gd sending his only begotten Son to pay the price of sin and make the way clear for all to receive him as Lord and Saviour.

    God’s peace and longsuffering is revealed to hold back his wrath for as long as he determines. But there will be an ending to this, and for this we must be prepared, and prepare the world.

    I don’t actually need Revelation to show you where God as spoken of wrath. I choose to believe him, not your liberal exclusionists.

    You cannot be taken seriously.

  159. “orthodox evangelical teaching”

    I’m not interested in holding up evangelical doctrine if it is wrong. As for whether it is orthodox is subjective. Many would say your individualistic twisting of scripture is unorthodox.

    “You refuse to engage n the scripture itself”

    Huh.

    Try again.

    Will Jesus rule with an ‘iron rod’ for a thousand years?

    Will Jesus kill the children of prostitutes?

    Will Jesus send people to hell for adding an extra article or piece of punctuation to the Book of Revelation?

    Will Jesus condemn you because you ate food sacrificed to idols?

    Will Jesus send you into the lake of fire because you are a coward for eating meat offered to idols and you offered sacrifice to Caesar after being threatened with your own and your family’s death?

    John Patmos says yes.

  160. Steve, temper that with the knowledge that what God does is for our best and His best is our best – God is not primarily out to smite, He is out to save, but there is some smiting to be done, of that I am sure, but it will be the flesh which bears the brunt of His fury.

    To understand what God is angry at, consider if you had a son who you loved and who was maligned and persecuted simply because of who his father was? I know and know of people who are faithful sons and daughters of God, who love their fellow man and would not harm anyone yet the world preys upon them and treats them despitefully. Now add to this all the things which man does to man – the exploitation, the plunder, the greed, the covetousness, the hatred, the wars, the strifes – it starts to sound bloody damning – and it is. You cannot do this stuff forever and it not necessitate correction and cleansing.

    I am in awe of what I have seen prophetically – I have seen many swept in to the kingdom, but i have seen that many too shall pass – multiplied millions – but I also have a heart assurance that the same God who knows when a sparrow falls, knows where every soul lies.

  161. Here is a little testimony of some Old Testament smiting and its results. A friend of mine, a very spiritual man but not in the Orthodox sense, and one who i am convinced hears the Son of Man, told me a story.

    My friend is Jewish Scottish by descent and a “seeker” by nature.

    Some years back, he happened upon a group of young gang prospects about to beat up a homosexual man who he knew, and knew to be utterly inoffensive and peaceful. My friend interposed himself between the four young men and his friend, and sought to calm the situation. He said one of the men King hit him from the side and from that instant “everything went white” – he said it was like he was suddenly immersed in a light and in a few moments, he could hear what was like a high pitched squealing noise and then as his senses attuned again he realized that it was the younger of these four guys screaming continuously as he stood to one side, clutching his head.

    There on the ground were two of the protagonists, one unconscious with a fractured skull, one with a compound fracture of his leg, and another with my friend holding him up by his eye sockets – as soon as he realized that it had happened, he dropped him and heard his head hit the pavement with a sickening thump.

    Now for background, my friend is not versed in martial arts, is of average size and build and at the time was about 35yrs old. He is the sought of guy who would stop to help anyone and has a real heart for the underdog.

    Some time later he was approached by a rather large Maori man at a social function who began to tell him how Mac had wiped the floor with them some years before – Mac thought he was about to get hammered when the big guy said, “Hey no, I want to thank you – me and my mates were in a gang initiation and beating up that guy was part of it” and he told Mac how later at the hospital they all said how that the only way they could describe what they saw and what happened to them was the wrath of God – they said the light was so bright it nearly blinded them and it was all over in literally a heartbeat – they knew that it was supernatural and they all went straight and started going to church. This is a fair dinkum yarn. I know Mac and I know his heart, and if you go see the Hobbit, or have seen LOR, you will be familiar with his workmanship, he is a sword-maker par excellence.

    When he told me the story, (and Mac is not “embellisher”) I asked God what was that about and I heard one word “Samson”.

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